1/23 thru 1/25

[Perplexed1]

[QUOTE=GentleBreeze;12703133]There again I don't think anyone can compartmentalize ALL children to fit nicely in one group only.

We have no idea if anyone noticed. They may have understood why he had to be at his father's side very often. Even Eyrn said that he had a very close relationship with his father. People from St. Johns said Vinnie doted on his son. Having no mother imo certainly could have affected him when it came to the relationship with his only parent that had always raised him.

One common denominator in some of these juvenile offenders who kill their parents is they were extremely angry with them about something, even trivial nonsensical things.
The boy said when he first shot his dad he was angry with him.
imoo (?Quote)


The little boy didn't say, "I was angry with my dad, therefore I shot him". He said he shot him twice, to end his suffering. The interrogator then said were you angry with your dad because you got spanked. She was switching subjects. Just because 2 men died does not mean the child did it. There are way too many other people with better motives. As I said before, 8 yr olds plan to run away when they are upset. They don't plot murders. IMO

[JusticeDawg©]

No he didn't say that ...?

He never alluded to anything negative until the police made him?

Exactly!!!

[JusticeDawg©]

Keep beating that horse. We're all doing that. It ain't dead yet. The case is still developing and new stuff comes along every once in awhile.

Daily, I am sure. We just aren't privy to everything. GAG! :angry:


This week we should be seeing a lot of Motions flying in. :biggrin:

[GentleBreeze]

[QUOTE12703133](?Quote)

The little boy didn't say, "I was angry with my dad, therefore I shot him". He said he shot him twice, to end his suffering. The interrogator then said were you angry with your dad because you got spanked. She was switching subjects. Just because 2 men died does not mean the child did it. There are way too many other people with better motives. As I said before, 8 yr olds plan to run away when they are upset. They don't plot murders. IMO

We cannot say what all 8 year olds do or don't do. We can say the majority will not do or will do, but not all, because there are always anomalies in everything and there always will be.

It sure doesn't mean he didn't do it either.

Most people don't commit murder in our country but that never means that others don't. Just like most juveniles don't commit violent crimes but some, even at this young age, does.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

He stated that after Avila prompted him by asking if he was mad at his dad. That statement is about as trustworthy a child saying that he likes sex when a pedophile prompts him after having groomed the child for weeks.

That is your opinion only. You have no way of knowing if the statement he made was false.

imo

[JusticeDawg©]

That is your opinion only. You have no way of knowing if the statement he made was false.

imo

Did any of his teachers, friends, bus driver...anyone say CR was "mad" at his dad? NO!

Tiffany faxed co-workers about how mad she was at VR all day though. :wink:

[Perplexed1]

We cannot say what all 8 year olds do or don't do. We can say the majority will not do or will do, but not all, because there are always anomalies in everything and there always will be.

It sure doesn't mean he didn't do it either.

Most people don't commit murder in our country but that never means that others don't. Just like most juveniles don't commit violent crimes but some, even at this young age, does.

imo

I'm talking about just this little boy. His circumstances as they've been discussed here. Yes, he could have commited this crime, if that is the way 8 yr olds are becoming in our society. But with the evidence, (or lack of), I'm not buying it.

[Perplexed1]

That is your opinion only. You have no way of knowing if the statement he made was false.

imo

You belie your moniker. IMO

[Hawk]

The intent of the killings was to get rid of Romero and Romans and make it look like the kid did it. Someone wanted all three out of the picture. Don't know who. Here's a wild guess on how, and maybe a stretch, that would fit some of the evidence pretty well:

The killer is dropped off near the house and hides in the RV out back. At around 4:30 he gets a cell phone call from his cronies saying that the men have left work and are en route. As cautious and quickly as he can he unlocks the back door with the key given to him by the same person who provided the RV key. A boxer puppy yelps inside a cage near the front door.
He hurries upstairs while putting on surgical gloves, finds the Chipmunk and ammo left exactly where he'd been told. He loads a round as he descends the stairs and waits at the first step for a call. If things go wrong he'll drop the rifle and run out the back door where he'll meet up with his friend. The phone rings. "Romero's getting out of the truck. Romans is on the phone!
The killer is almost to the top landing as Romero takes the first step. By the time Romero turns the corner and makes the 3rd step a bullet slams into his brain causing him to fall forward. The killer shoots him three more times. The last one for fun. On his way downstairs he speed dials his friend.
"Romans is still on the phone." the friend reports.
"Okay, don't move until you hear from me."
The killer goes to the front door and calls for Romans in a high pitched voice. Romans knows it isn't the boy but tells his wife it is because he senses trouble. He reaches for his big bore revolver in the console and gets out of the truck. Just as he passes around the front of the truck he sees the assailant pointing a rifle at him and raises his pistol. But he's too late. The killer shoots him in the right arm causing a devastating wound. The pistol drops to the ground. The killer shoots twice more as fast as he can recycle the little rifle. Romans falls to the ground where he is shot three times in the head, one a grazing wound. The killer quickly runs over and picks up the dropped pistol then goes back into the house. That's when the boy sees him.
The killer speed dials his friend. "Go by the store and honk twice, then meet me in 30 minutes" he says, "And take it easy!" The Chipmunk is placed on the dog cage. A car races up the street in front of the house and turns left toward the highway.
The killer locks the back door with the key as he returns to the RV. He watches as the boy goes out of sight around the house and sees him again in a few minutes running across the yard. The killer then eases out of the RV and walks to the main road where a small white car picks him up.

[JusticeDawg©]

The intent of the killings was to get rid of Romero and Romans and make it look like the kid did it. Someone wanted all three out of the picture. Don't know who. Here's a wild guess on how, and maybe a stretch, that would fit some of the evidence pretty well:

The killer is dropped off near the house and hides in the RV out back. At around 4:30 he gets a cell phone call from his cronies saying that the men have left work and are en route. As cautious and quickly as he can he unlocks the back door with the key given to him by the same person who provided the RV key. A boxer puppy yelps inside a cage near the front door.
He hurries upstairs while putting on surgical gloves, finds the Chipmunk and ammo left exactly where he'd been told. He loads a round as he descends the stairs and waits at the first step for a call. If things go wrong he'll drop the rifle and run out the back door where he'll meet up with his friend. The phone rings. "Romero's getting out of the truck. Romans is on the phone!
The killer is almost to the top landing as Romero takes the first step. By the time Romero turns the corner and makes the 3rd step a bullet slams into his brain causing him to fall forward. The killer shoots him three more times. The last one for fun. On his way downstairs he speed dials his friend.
"Romans is still on the phone." the friend reports.
"Okay, don't move until you hear from me."
The killer goes to the front door and calls for Romans in a high pitched voice. Romans knows it isn't the boy but tells his wife it is because he senses trouble. He reaches for his big bore revolver in the console and gets out of the truck. Just as he passes around the front of the truck he sees the assailant pointing a rifle at him and raises his pistol. But he's too late. The killer shoots him in the right arm causing a devastating wound. The pistol drops to the ground. The killer shoots twice more as fast as he can recycle the little rifle. Romans falls to the ground where he is shot three times in the head, one a grazing wound. The killer quickly runs over and picks up the dropped pistol then goes back into the house. That's when the boy sees him.
The killer speed dials his friend. "Go by the store and honk twice, then meet me in 30 minutes" he says, "And take it easy!" The Chipmunk is placed on the dog cage. A car races up the street in front of the house and turns left toward the highway.
The killer locks the back door with the key as he returns to the RV. He watches as the boy goes out of sight around the house and sees him again in a few minutes running across the yard. The killer then eases out of the RV and walks to the main road where a small white car picks him up.

ITA with everything. Points straight to Tiffany and Nicole.
Except, a gun was found in the console. The gun from behind his seat is missing. :w00t:

[mina]

snip...

The killer locks the back door with the key as he returns to the RV. He watches as the boy goes out of sight around the house and sees him again in a few minutes running across the yard. The killer then eases out of the RV and walks to the main road where a small white car picks him up.

I missed the report that said the back door was locked with a key instead of a deadbolt. Ground floor exits that require a key to open are fire hazards -- this could be another negligence issue.

Can you provide a link to that please? Thanks!

[TaraCrazyHair]

I am really curious as to how anyone really thinks an eight year old boy could pull off two murders this way

Even those poor kids brought into gangs at such a young age could not pull off what this little boy allegedly did with no prior history

I will be anxious to see the reasoning and thoughts behind it . especially malice aforethought

One or two shots at the victims might lean me toward it but repeatedly?

No way in my mind

Even a rabbit takes two at the most and they are not large parental figures

There was no mercy by the killer

None

[Hawk]

I missed the report that said the back door was locked with a key instead of a deadbolt. Ground floor exits that require a key to open are fire hazards -- this could be another negligence issue.

Can you provide a link to that please? Thanks!

The boy said that the back door is always locked. From the photos you can see the backdoor deadbolt lock just above the doorknob. Whether or not it requires a key on the inside I don't know. It could be a lever on the inside. I agree with you that if it's keyed inside that's very dangerous.
LE didn't check it or either did but didn't put it in any of the reports I've read.

[JusticeDawg©]

I am really curious as to how anyone really thinks an eight year old boy could pull off two murders this way

Even those poor kids brought into gangs at such a young age could not pull off what this little boy allegedly did with no prior history

I will be anxious to see the reasoning and thoughts behind it . especially malice aforethought

One or two shots at the victims might lean me toward it but repeatedly?

No way in my mind

Even a rabbit takes two at the most and they are not large parental figures

There was no mercy by the killer

None

No way he did it Tara.
I have stuff for you up on the other site.

[Hawk]

ITA with everything. Points straight to Tiffany and Nicole.
Except, a gun was found in the console. The gun from behind his seat is missing. :w00t:

As you know, pistols can be stashed anywhere and moved often. Maybe it was behind the seat.

[JusticeDawg©]

As you know, pistols can be stashed anywhere and moved often. Maybe it was behind the seat.

How are we going to know? They didn't proccess the truck, did they?

Goobers.

[ChildsVOICE]

I am really curious as to how anyone really thinks an eight year old boy could pull off two murders this way

Even those poor kids brought into gangs at such a young age could not pull off what this little boy allegedly did with no prior history

I will be anxious to see the reasoning and thoughts behind it . especially malice aforethought

One or two shots at the victims might lean me toward it but repeatedly?

No way in my mind

Even a rabbit takes two at the most and they are not large parental figures

There was no mercy by the killer

None

Bolding done by me.

Exactly! and that goes against the boy's statements like "I didn't want him to suffer." and "I tried not to hit him (TR) with the door but I think I tapped his head just a little bit."

Plus, he would not have ran for help.

He would have sat and waited for Tiffany.

[Hawk]

How are we going to know? They didn't proccess the truck, did they?

Goobers.

I don't think they impounded it. It was turned over to Mrs. Romans. Only Items #2 and #3 were things taken from the truck as noted on the Property Supplement (Augustine Logan's Wells Fargo card and the EAA .45 ACP pistol). But my list may not be complete.

[Jacobtk]

That is your opinion only. You have no way of knowing if the statement he made was false.

And it is your opinion that the statement he made was true. Now that we have established that nothing the boy states can be taken as fact, let us move on to what is fact.

Fact: the boy never states he is mad at his father on his on accord. All six times being 'mad' is mentioned, the boy is prompted by Neckels or Avila and he repeats what they state. The transcript (http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/InterviewDVDChristian.pdf) proves this:

AVILA: Okay. So it's real important. Is this the truth? here. anything? CR: Yeah.
AVILA: Because you're changing your story
CR: This is the truth.
AVILA: This is the truth?
CR: Yeah.
AVILA: Okay.
NECKELS: Were you mad at your dad for
CR: No.
NECKELS: Were you mad at Tim for anything?
CR: I don't --no.
NECKELS: Did you get in trouble for anything recently?

----

AVILA: Okay. So you got spanked?
CR: (Nods head affirmatively.)
NECKELS: Okay.
CR: Five times.
AVILA: Five times?
CR: (Nods head affirmatively.)
AVILA: And what about your dad?
CR: He was the one that told her to.
AVILA: He did?
CR: (Nods head affirmatively.)
AVILA: So you were mad at your dad for that?
CR: (Nods head affirmatively.)
AVILA: Okay. And when was that, honey?
CR: The day before yesterday.
AVILA: The day before yesterday?
CR: (Nods head affirmatively.)

----

AVILA: So you were mad at your dad. That's why you shot him?
CR: Well, the first time, I was mad at him. So I --and --but he already was shot. So then I shot him again.

----

AVILA: Did you shoot your dad?
CR: I think so.
AVILA: You think so?
CR: (Nods head affirmatively.)
AVILA: Okay. Did you shoot him because you were mad at him?
CR: Think so.
AVILA: You think so?
CR: (Nods head affirmatively.)
AVILA: Okay. I'll let you talk to him. I'm going to take a break.

While it is true that is my opinion that the boy's statements are false, I will say that I have experience with adults who manipulate children into doing things the children do not want to do and I am quite aware of the responses children have to that. What occurred above is no different than what I have seen. It is also incredibly ironic that every law enforcer officer, judge, attorney, therapist, psychologist and child psychiatrist who has viewed or read the interrogation reached the same conclusion I did. They all agree, even active officers, the boy was coerced and gave a false confession. I apology for the appeal to authority, but it seems incredibly unlikely that everyone with knowledge about confessions (true or false) would all collectively be wrong in this instance.

[mina]

The boy said that the back door is always locked. From the photos you can see the backdoor deadbolt lock just above the doorknob. Whether or not it requires a key on the inside I don't know. It could be a lever on the inside. I agree with you that if it's keyed inside that's very dangerous.
LE didn't check it or either did but didn't put it in any of the reports I've read.

I understand now - your scenario has the killer locking the deadbolt with a key from the outside. Not a big deal IMO, but it would help your scenario if the evidence indicated that the door was locked. Actually, it would be nice if there was evidence that SJPD bothered to see if the door was locked or not.

[JusticeDawg©]

I understand now - your scenario has the killer locking the deadbolt with a key from the outside. Not a big deal IMO, but it would help your scenario if the evidence indicated that the door was locked. Actually, it would be nice if there was evidence that SJPD bothered to see if the door was locked or not.

Good One! :thumbsup:

[Hawk]

I understand now - your scenario has the killer locking the deadbolt with a key from the outside. Not a big deal IMO, but it would help your scenario if the evidence indicated that the door was locked. Actually, it would be nice if there was evidence that SJPD bothered to see if the door was locked or not.

I'm just guessing, trying to come up with different possibilities that reflect something a little bit reasonable. I simply took it for granted that the deadbolt would be locked because of what the boy said. Maybe it wasn't.
I'd just never considered that big RV setting in the backyard so close to the door. What a great hiding place it would be. Don't know if LE considered it or not.

Just my opinion.

[JusticeDawg©]

I'm just guessing, trying to come up with different possibilities that reflect something a little bit reasonable. I simply took it for granted that the deadbolt would be locked because of what the boy said. Maybe it wasn't.
I'd just never considered that big RV setting in the backyard so close to the door. What a great hiding place it would be. Don't know if LE considered it or not.

Just my opinion.

What a great meth lab it would make.

[Hawk]

What a great meth lab it would make.

Home delivery. Just like pizza! The market is certainly there.

[ChildsVOICE]

The intent of the killings was to get rid of Romero and Romans and make it look like the kid did it. Someone wanted all three out of the picture. Don't know who. Here's a wild guess on how, and maybe a stretch, that would fit some of the evidence pretty well:

The killer is dropped off near the house and hides in the RV out back. At around 4:30 he gets a cell phone call from his cronies saying that the men have left work and are en route. As cautious and quickly as he can he unlocks the back door with the key given to him by the same person who provided the RV key. A boxer puppy yelps inside a cage near the front door.
He hurries upstairs while putting on surgical gloves, finds the Chipmunk and ammo left exactly where he'd been told. He loads a round as he descends the stairs and waits at the first step for a call. If things go wrong he'll drop the rifle and run out the back door where he'll meet up with his friend. The phone rings. "Romero's getting out of the truck. Romans is on the phone!
The killer is almost to the top landing as Romero takes the first step. By the time Romero turns the corner and makes the 3rd step a bullet slams into his brain causing him to fall forward. The killer shoots him three more times. The last one for fun. On his way downstairs he speed dials his friend.
"Romans is still on the phone." the friend reports.
"Okay, don't move until you hear from me."
The killer goes to the front door and calls for Romans in a high pitched voice. Romans knows it isn't the boy but tells his wife it is because he senses trouble. He reaches for his big bore revolver in the console and gets out of the truck. Just as he passes around the front of the truck he sees the assailant pointing a rifle at him and raises his pistol. But he's too late. The killer shoots him in the right arm causing a devastating wound. The pistol drops to the ground. The killer shoots twice more as fast as he can recycle the little rifle. Romans falls to the ground where he is shot three times in the head, one a grazing wound. The killer quickly runs over and picks up the dropped pistol then goes back into the house. That's when the boy sees him.
The killer speed dials his friend. "Go by the store and honk twice, then meet me in 30 minutes" he says, "And take it easy!" The Chipmunk is placed on the dog cage. A car races up the street in front of the house and turns left toward the highway.
The killer locks the back door with the key as he returns to the RV. He watches as the boy goes out of sight around the house and sees him again in a few minutes running across the yard. The killer then eases out of the RV and walks to the main road where a small white car picks him up.
If your being serious, here's an addition to your theory:

OR possibly:

the front door was unlocked and they didn't need any key

AND

the lookout waiting down the street sees TR reaching for the gun & heading for the house, zooms up to the house to do what he can to stop/disarm/prevent/slow down TR from entering the house with his weapon. Meanwhile, the shooter at the doorway or column/bush is shooting TR .
TR tries to take cover by going left but the get-a-way driver/look out sees him heading to side of house and worries he's going to get away so he aims the car onto the driveway or other area blocking TR/cutting off his exit (possibly gets out with his own weapon). He's in a hurry now because his position/job has been compromised. He's no longer in a position to get and run.

TR must turn back to the house, trapped and injured, starts to collaspe onto porch. As the shooter from the doorway sees his back up coming to cover TR he decides to go back inside to check on VR opening the door and entering he does not realize the get-a-way driver is setting his sights on TR's head. TR is collapsing, driver shoots. The bullet grazes TRs head but the other shooter has not cleared the doorway, yet. The bullet goes through door and enters shooter's leg or does so on his way back out of the doorway.
He takes two more shots at VR because he's still moving or other reason (probably the two shots on the left side as VR lays on the stairs). He goes to porch where he shoots or the driver had already been shooting TR the remaining times.

One of the shooters pick up TRs gun and takes it with them.


FYI... just trying to think outload. IMO...This is not as far fetched as it may seem. Enforcers, gang members, ect. would have a look out and the look out would be expected to step in when things start to get hairy.

[Hawk]

I understand now - your scenario has the killer locking the deadbolt with a key from the outside. Not a big deal IMO, but it would help your scenario if the evidence indicated that the door was locked. Actually, it would be nice if there was evidence that SJPD bothered to see if the door was locked or not.

Yes. And if the truck was running.
And if Cage saw the boy walking.
Did the boy hear gunshots on his way home?
What did the person you saw go into your house look like?
Is the backdoor deadbolt usually engaged? Is a key needed on the inside?
What time does your mom get home on Tuesday, Thursday and Friday?
Are you home alone often?
Why didn't you use your cell phone?
Where did you put the .22 cartridges you used? Pocket or hand?

[mina]

Yes. And if the truck was running.
And if Cage saw the boy walking.
Did the boy hear gunshots on his way home?
What did the person you saw go into your house look like?
Is the backdoor deadbolt usually engaged? Is a key needed on the inside?
What time does your mom get home on Tuesday, Thursday and Friday?
Are you home alone often?
Why didn't you use your cell phone?
Where did you put the .22 cartridges you used? Pocket or hand?

Yes!!

Why on earth were those questions not asked??

[Hawk]

If your being serious, here's an addition to your theory:

OR possibly:

the front door was unlocked and they didn't need any key

AND

the lookout waiting down the street sees TR reaching for the gun & heading for the house, zooms up to the house to do what he can to stop/disarm/prevent/slow down TR from entering the house with his weapon. Meanwhile, the shooter at the doorway or column/bush is shooting TR .
TR tries to take cover by going left but the get-a-way driver/look out sees him heading to side of house and worries he's going to get away so he aims the car onto the driveway or other area blocking TR/cutting off his exit (possibly gets out with his own weapon). He's in a hurry now because his position/job has been compromised. He's no longer in a position to get and run.

TR must turn back to the house, trapped and injured, starts to collaspe onto porch. As the shooter from the doorway sees his back up coming to cover TR he decides to go back inside to check on VR opening the door and entering he does not realize the get-a-way driver is setting his sights on TR's head. TR is collapsing, driver shoots. The bullet grazes TRs head but the other shooter has not cleared the doorway, yet. The bullet goes through door and enters shooter's leg or does so on his way back out of the doorway.
He takes two more shots at VR because he's still moving or other reason (probably the two shots on the left side as VR lays on the stairs). He goes to porch where he shoots or the driver had already been shooting TR the remaining times.

One of the shooters pick up TRs gun and takes it with them.


FYI... just trying to think outload. IMO...This is not as far fetched as it may seem. Enforcers, gang members, ect. would have a look out and the look out would be expected to step in when things start to get hairy.

Anything is possible, of course. I was trying to set the stage using only the chipmunk and empty casing locations in order to frame the boy.
If it's proven the chipmunk wasn't used, or that two weapons, one being the Chipmunk, were used, all bets are off. The county attorney will have to go back to the drawing board.
Let's keep thinking out loud. LE apparently isn't. Then again, maybe some of them are, in private, and we just don't know it.

[JusticeDawg©]

Yes!!

Why on earth were those questions not asked??

They are Goobers. :eek:


:chicken:


:beer:

[wolfi_2]

Short answers from me,

a: unfortunately , Yes
b: I think, Yes
c: In my opinion: No
d: I'm sure, Yes.