The ~Crime~

[Politigal]

It's no secret that I believe Gricar most likely met with foul play....and IMO, foul play seems to make the most sense, as opposed to suicide or walkway, considering what we know about Gricar.

But, considering all the circumstances that we've learned of thus far, how do *you* think the crime could have occurred?

[Cloudbuster]

If Gricar was to meet someone could he have been asked to attend the governors award ceremony?

www.newPA.com. Governor’s Award for. Local Government Excellence. 2005. April 15 , 2005 .... Centre Region Council of Governments, Centre County
April 15 has been set aside as Local Government Day to
recognize all the dedicated men and women who serve
their community as local government officials.
The Governor’s Award for Local Government Excellence
honors those local governments and officials who have
demonstrated vision, dedication and determination in the
development and implementation of programs and
projects designed to improve the quality of life in their
community.
The Local Government Day Luncheon and Awards
Program is sponsored by the Governor’s Center for Local
Government Services in partnership with the County
Commissioners Association of Pennsylvania, the
Pennsylvania Association of Councils of Governments,
the Pennsylvania League of Cities and Municipalities, the
Pennsylvania Municipal Authorities Association, the
Pennsylvania Planning Association, the Pennsylvania
State Association of Boroughs, the Pennsylvania State
Association of Township Commissioners and the
Pennsylvania State Association of Township Supervisors.
www.newpa.com/get-local-gov-support/governors-award-for-local-government-excellence/download.aspx?id=251
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Local Government Groups Win Awards
-0/4-/2005
Representative Lynn B. Herman (R-Centre) applauded two groups from Centre County on winning 2005 Governor’s Awards for Local Government Excellence.

Centre Region Council of Governments (COG) and the Centre Region Technology Coalition won awards in the category of Intergovernmental Cooperation.

"As a long-time advocate of intergovernmental cooperation, I am delighted that two Centre County organizations earned these awards," said Herman, who chairs the House Local Government Committee.

The awards were for the following achievements:

- In 1990, the COG, which includes the Borough of State College and surrounding townships, established Pennsylvanian’s first joint emergency management program with a volunteer serving as emergency management coordinator (EMC). In 2003, the COG and Penn State University collaborated to establish a first-ever shared full-time EMC for the Centre County Region.
- The Centre Region Technology Coalition includes the COG, College, Ferguson, and Patton Townships and State College Borough. After two years of existence, the coalition reached its goals of reducing costs trough shared technology services.

The awards program is administered by the Governor’s Center for Local Government Services in the Department of Community and Economic Development.

http://www.centrecounty.com/topofthecounty/localnews/news.phtml

[J. J. in Phila]

At this point, the theory that RFG met a lover, and something happened, is probably tied with a "luring."

[Politigal]

If Gricar *was* the victim of a crime...what would the motive be?

If the perpetrator was a companion, jealousy or a breakup could have been possible motives.

If the perpetrator was a co-worker, uncovering some sort of corruption could have been at play.

If it was someone who supported Mendez and/or was against the death penalty...I can't see how that would have played out, with Gricar being off work unexpectedly.

If Gricar was kidnapped from his home, I can't see that either, especially since there was no ransom call or anything like that. And why would a kidnapper allow him to call PF at the courthouse?

If Gricar was kidnapped at Lewisburg - that means the perp would have to have known first that he wasn't working and second that he went to Lewisburg.

If it was just some random kidnapping...why?

So many questions...

[J. J. in Phila]

If we assume that the witnesses in Wilkes-Barre is correct, it could have been RFG to call his daughter/PEF that triggered a hypothetical "jealous rage" on the part of a lover. He saw them on the evening news and told the lover that he wanted to back to them or call them.

[J. J. in Phila]

Conversely, it could be a luring. Someone with a grudge lured RFG into coming to Lewisburg.

[Cloudbuster]

Or it could be RG was set up into going there by using perhaps the governors award ceremony. He might have been asked to meet the person and go to the ward ceremony? Question I have is who went that day that RG knew? Was he asked to go at the prision board meeting? Or was RG being asked to except the award? Page 14 does not have who accepted those 2 awards. The governor that day didn't even give the awards out. There is a whole cookie list missing.

[Politigal]

Wow...I found a statement by Gricar from a 1999 murder case...it gave me goose bumps:

http://tinyurl.com/bl3tow

"Murder is murder. It's an intentional killing, and that's what we have here. You don't excuse murder because you feel sorry for the perpetrator."

[Politigal]

an older video that includes Lara's comments about her dad

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=1633373n%3fsource=search_video

[Politigal]

Was rereading old articles (again) and found this one a little puzzling...

Why do you think that right off the bat (4/22/05,) that Patty said this:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05112/492590-85.stm

"We, the family, are continuing to treat this as a missing-persons case," she said.

She then asked that the news media do the same.

-- Specifically not a crime, but just a missing person case....

Why?

[UndertheRadar]

Was rereading old articles (again) and found this one a little puzzling...

Why do you think that right off the bat (4/22/05,) that Patty said this:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05112/492590-85.stm

"We, the family, are continuing to treat this as a missing-persons case," she said.

She then asked that the news media do the same.

-- Specifically not a crime, but just a missing person case....

Why?

Being completely objective and fair here, I'd say that the context on 4/22 was media focused on suicide (river searches, articles including Roy's death). Maybe what she meant was, "Please stop speculating that he committed suicide" rather than "Don't look at this as a crime"?

Just playing the objective eye here.

[Politigal]

Being completely objective and fair here, I'd say that the context on 4/22 was media focused on suicide (river searches, articles including Roy's death). Maybe what she meant was, "Please stop speculating that he committed suicide" rather than "Don't look at this as a crime"?

Just playing the objective eye here.


that makes sense

[J. J. in Phila]

UTR, your claim doesn't match LG initial statements at the press conference, where LG asked her father to call (so did REF). That is not a presumption that a crime took place.

[Politigal]

In the beginning, the presumption by PF (and possibly Lara) was that he walked away. And I'm still curious exactly *why* that was considered - at that time.

Suicide was looked at by law enforcement & the media. But no body was found.

[gstickley]

In the beginning, the presumption by PF (and possibly Lara) was that he walked away. And I'm still curious exactly *why* that was considered - at that time.
(snip)


I'm curious too. If you were in such a panic because your 'loved one' didn't come home that you called LE, why would you think he walked away? If you were scared enough to call LE, wouldn't you have thought that something bad had happened to the loved one? Seems strange to call LE if you think he/she just walked away, doesn't it? If you thought he/she just walked away, wouldn't you be calling everyone who knew the loved one to see if they had any little inkling of what may have happened, if they'd heard from him/her, if they had any idea where he/she might be? It wouldn't matter if it were in the middle of the night, wake up everyone to check . . .

[UndertheRadar]

Where have I made a claim that anyone said a crime took place early on?

:confused:

I said media focus was on suicide, and PF may have been trying to keep the focus on a walkaway by asking that people consider the disappearance a missing persons' case, that she wanted them to stop speculating about suicide. . .

[J. J. in Phila]

UTR, I didn't say you did, but the title of the thread is, " The ~Crime~."

It does not sound like there was a presumption that RFG was dead.

[Politigal]

I'm curious too. If you were in such a panic because your 'loved one' didn't come home that you called LE, why would you think he walked away? If you were scared enough to call LE, wouldn't you have thought that something bad had happened to the loved one? Seems strange to call LE if you think he/she just walked away, doesn't it? If you thought he/she just walked away, wouldn't you be calling everyone who knew the loved one to see if they had any little inkling of what may have happened, if they'd heard from him/her, if they had any idea where he/she might be? It wouldn't matter if it were in the middle of the night, wake up everyone to check . . .


yep, *I* would

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm curious too. If you were in such a panic because your 'loved one' didn't come home that you called LE, why would you think he walked away? If you were scared enough to call LE, wouldn't you have thought that something bad had happened to the loved one? Seems strange to call LE if you think he/she just walked away, doesn't it? If you thought he/she just walked away, wouldn't you be calling everyone who knew the loved one to see if they had any little inkling of what may have happened, if they'd heard from him/her, if they had any idea where he/she might be? It wouldn't matter if it were in the middle of the night, wake up everyone to check . . .

Well, GS, would you feel the same way if your "loved one's" car was found intact, in a very public place (and a safe one, at that), and people said they saw him with another woman?

That was the real situation on 4/18/05.

[Politigal]

IIRC, there was no report of Gricar being seen with a woman in Lewisburg as of Monday 4/18/05.

[Serendipitous1]

The SoS owner told GVS he was probably contacted by LE on Sunday morning. He would have been the one to introduce LE to his employees and to the sublet-owner of the restaurant (who was apparently the one who offered the MW information). So I suspect the MW possibility...together with a potential candidate from RG's past, a known smoker...was one working theory on Sunday morning. This was also confirmed, more or less, by KA.

[Politigal]

The SoS owner told GVS he was probably contacted by LE on Sunday morning. He would have been the one to introduce LE to his employees and to the sublet-owner of the restaurant (who was apparently the one who offered the MW information). So I suspect the MW possibility...together with a potential candidate from RG's past, a known smoker...was one working theory on Sunday morning. This was also confirmed, more or less, by KA.

But I don't recall it being published in the news on that Monday, that Gricar had been seen with a woman...I think that came out a little later. I think the Sunday thing was more about cigarette ash...and contacting people Gricar knew who smoked.

And didn't the mystery woman report come out about a year later?

[J. J. in Phila]

But I don't recall it being published in the news on that Monday, that Gricar had been seen with a woman...I think that came out a little later. I think the Sunday thing was more about cigarette ash...and contacting people Gricar knew who smoked.

And didn't the mystery woman report come out about a year later?


P'gal, there is a big difference between what LE knew at a specific time and what was reported.

[Politigal]

Tony Gricar didn't even find out til May 2006...and commented what a odd little bombshell that piece of news was....

Since Tony didn't know, it's possible PF didn't hear it sooner either. After all, it was also reported that they (LE) were trying to spare PF/family by not publishing it sooner.

[UndertheRadar]

Tony Gricar didn't even find out til May 2006...and commented what a odd little bombshell that piece of news was....

Since Tony didn't know, it's possible PF didn't hear it sooner either. After all, it was also reported that they (LE) were trying to spare PF/family by not publishing it sooner.

And wasn't PF reported as "near tears" when this was reported in May '06?

[Politigal]

http://z10.invisionfree.com/usedtobedoe/ar/t2226.htm

That may, in part, have been out of concern for Gricar's family and loved ones, Zaccagni said, and concerns that they would be hurt if the revelation raised questions about whether Gricar was having an affair.

So, I re-concur with GStickley's post earlier in the thread....

Originally Posted by gstickley View Post
I'm curious too. If you were in such a panic because your 'loved one' didn't come home that you called LE, why would you think he walked away? If you were scared enough to call LE, wouldn't you have thought that something bad had happened to the loved one? Seems strange to call LE if you think he/she just walked away, doesn't it? If you thought he/she just walked away, wouldn't you be calling everyone who knew the loved one to see if they had any little inkling of what may have happened, if they'd heard from him/her, if they had any idea where he/she might be? It wouldn't matter if it were in the middle of the night, wake up everyone to check . . .

yep, *I* would

[Politigal]

And wasn't PF reported as "near tears" when this was reported in May '06?

yep

The news of the sighting, and the attention it has grabbed, had Gricar's girlfriend, Patty Fornicola, near tears Wednesday. She said she knows the man she planned to spend the rest of her life with did not run off with another woman.

[gstickley]

IIRC, there was no report of Gricar being seen with a woman in Lewisburg as of Monday 4/18/05.

Reward offered in Gricar case
04/21/05

By Erin James
and Josh Kowalkowski
Collegian Staff Writers

(snip)

Yesterday, two employees of the antiques shop where Gricar's car was found Saturday said they are nearly
certain they saw him in the store that day.

Craig Bennett, owner of Street of Shops, Lewisburg, said he saw Gricar at noon Saturday waiting outside of the Remember When Café, which is currently being constructed inside the market.

"I'm relatively certain, 95 percent sure, he was here at noontime on Saturday," Bennett said.

Though it is "difficult to say with absolute certainty," Bennett said Gricar appeared to be waiting for someone outside the café for about five to 10 minutes.

Gricar was last heard from when he called his girlfriend, Patty Fornicola, to tell her he was traveling on Route 192 at about 11:30 a.m. Friday. His Mini Cooper was found in the Street of Shops dirt parking lot at 6:30 p.m. Saturday.

Brad Alvey, who owns Remember When Café, said he also told police that he believes he saw Gricar at the Street of Shops around closing time on either Friday or Saturday evening, after police showed him a photograph of the district attorney.

"I have recognized him in the building," Alvey said. "He was in an OK mood. I didn't talk to him."

Bennett said family members have said that Gricar often visited the Street of Shops and Lewisburg Roller Mills Marketplace, both owned by Bennett and located within five blocks of each other.

Bennett said he did not talk to Gricar Saturday, nor could he recall speaking with Gricar in the past, since the market receives about 20,000 customers each month.

"It could be very difficult to try to nail that down," he said.

Bellefonte police have been looking into leads for the past two days, Holliday said.

However, an officer at the Bellefonte Police Department, who would not give his name, said Bellefonte police were not directly involved in the search for Gricar yesterday but were investigating other aspects of the case.

"Right now, none of our personnel are personally out there," he said. "You have different responsibilities delegated to different people."

Police said they have determined that Gricar did not make any purchases at the Street of Shops either Friday or Saturday by using a credit card or check. However, a cash transaction would not have been recorded, Bennett said.

Market surveillance tapes showed no sign of Gricar, Bennett said.

He added that said he could not recall any strange occurrences on Friday or Saturday that could be connected to Gricar's disappearance.

"There wasn't anything suspicious or unusual about him or the vehicle," Holliday added.

(snip)


No mention of MW on 04/21/05 either.

[gstickley]

Local district attorney missing
04/18/05
By Josh Kowalkowski
Collegian Staff Writer

"The car was parked out here [Saturday]," said Brad Alvey, who owns Remember When Café, located in the Street of Shops. "Nobody that I'm aware of saw him."

(snip)

[J. J. in Phila]

Tony Gricar didn't even find out til May 2006...and commented what a odd little bombshell that piece of news was....

Since Tony didn't know, it's possible PF didn't hear it sooner either. After all, it was also reported that they (LE) were trying to spare PF/family by not publishing it sooner.


Actually, it was mentioned briefly in EN's Q & A in the Fall of 2005. It was mentioned more prominently in Renner's piece:

Zaccagni anticipates his visitor’s response. This makes no sense.
“It makes a lot of sense,” he replies with a smile, before returning to the chronology.
“Friday night, people remember the car sitting in the parking lot. It’s a very distinct car. Two people in the antique mall are positive they saw him in there. One man is positive he saw Gricar talking to a female on several occasions. I asked him, Were they together? He said, ‘Well, in my mind they were together, but they weren’t holding hands; they weren’t lovey-dovey or anything.’

http://www.freetimes.com/stories/13/30/the-rivers-edge-homicide-suicide-hoax-a-prosecutor-vanishes-and-the-clues-point-everywhere-and-nowhere-at-oncethe-rivers-edge

Also, in the cluster period, there were two people who saw RFG in the SoS.

[Politigal]

The point was....

that on Monday 4/18/05, Patty didn't know there was a report of Gricar being with another woman at the Street of Shops.

So why was it immediately assumed he had just left her and might come back?

[Serendipitous1]

As far as I know, the LMW was first publicly introduced by EN in the CDT's Q&A (http://web.archive.org/web/20051027091231/www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/news/special_packages/ray_gricar/qa_forum.html) on 10/13/05. There was some discussion here after that, but not much. And it did not come up again really until the CDT's published article on 5/10/06.

BTW, on Rita Cosby Live & Direct (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12756823/) (the night of 5/10/06), TG said it was not really a new lead...just something LE had gone back to...and that, although RG seeing another woman had been "in the realm of the possibilities in the beginning", they had "kind of discounted it". TG went on to point out the obvious...no way to verify it was even RG who was seen in the SoS.

[Serendipitous1]

The point was....

that on Monday 4/18/05, Patty didn't know there was a report of Gricar being with another woman at the Street of Shops.

So why was it immediately assumed he had just left her and might come back?I think there is enough in the links I provided to take an educated guess, and say that the possibility of another woman was being bandied about on Sunday. And whether or not LE had made the specific sighting details known at that time, it would certainly seem to be a possibility LE would want to discuss with PF and the family members.

[gstickley]

Renner's article is dated 11/16/05.

[gstickley]

Ref. above posts:

04/18/05, Alvey says car parked Sat.; "Nobody I'm aware of saw him."
NO MW MENTIONED.

04/21/05, Alvey says be believes he saw Gricar, closing time, Fri. or Sat., after seeing photo.
NO MW MENTIONED.

04/21/05, Bennett 75% sure he saw Gricar waiting outside "Remember When Cafe"; there 5-10 min., as though waiting on someone; did not talk to him.
NO MW MENTIONED.

Fall 2005, EN's article mentions MW.

11/16/05, Renner mentions MW.

[Politigal]

I think there is enough in the links I provided to take an educated guess, and say that the possibility of another woman was being bandied about on Sunday. And whether or not LE had made the specific sighting details known at that time, it would certainly seem to be a possibility LE would want to discuss with PF and the family members.

then why did Zaccagni say this about it not being made public?

That may, in part, have been out of concern for Gricar's family and loved ones, Zaccagni said, and concerns that they would be hurt if the revelation raised questions about whether Gricar was having an affair.

and why did Tony (family) say it was an odd little bombshell?

[Politigal]

Ref. above posts:

04/18/05, Alvey says car parked Sat.; "Nobody I'm aware of saw him."
NO MW MENTIONED.

04/21/05, Alvey says be believes he saw Gricar, closing time, Fri. or Sat., after seeing photo.
NO MW MENTIONED.

04/21/05, Bennett 75% sure he saw Gricar waiting outside "Remember When Cafe"; there 5-10 min., as though waiting on someone; did not talk to him.
NO MW MENTIONED.

Fall 2005, EN's article mentions MW.

11/16/05, Renner mentions MW.

Interesting too that both Alvey and Bennett were shown photos of Gricar first.

Oh yeahhhh....I think I saw that guy over yonder. :closedeyes:

[gstickley]

Interesting too that both Alvey and Bennett were shown photos of Gricar first.

Oh yeahhhh....I think I saw that guy over yonder. :closedeyes:

I like the fact Alvey, on 04/18/05, said, "Nobody I'm aware of saw him."
Yet, on 04/21/05, Alvey "believes he saw him".

(I don't remember exactly what S1 posted a day or so ago about these particular "sightings", but I agree with it.) :thumbdown:

[Politigal]

Curious here--------IIRC, there were at least three women mentioned who were said to have been contacted shortly after he disappeared. I am not certain of what their relationships to RG was described as, other than I do recall one was said to be a nurse he had dated at one time, another a friend possibly also someone he dated before, and another the ex-wife, said to be not in the area. If they didn't think he was with a woman, why were they contacting women from out of town?
JMO

I think Zaccagni did believe he was with a woman, but why would they assume Gricar would do that to Patty?

[gstickley]

I think Zaccagni did believe he was with a woman, but why would they assume Gricar would do that to Patty?

Dunno, Pgal., but it always seemed to me that DZ took delight in assuming that & making statements about it.

[J. J. in Phila]

The point was....

that on Monday 4/18/05, Patty didn't know there was a report of Gricar being with another woman at the Street of Shops.

So why was it immediately assumed he had just left her and might come back?


Please explain how you know this? It wasn't given to the media, but as S1 pointed out, it seems to have been known by JKA on 4/17/05.

[Politigal]

from JK Arnold's website

Ray's absence at that point was to my perception clearly being theorized to be volitional and likely in the company of an individual personally known to me to have had a long-standing friendship and admiration for him, and to be a smoker. It was not suggested to me then, nor have I ever heard it suggested at any time since, that the relationship had evolved to a romantic one. I did not know at that time why this particular individual had become an early focus, and assumed at the time that perhaps other longer-term DA staff who would also have been aware of the friendship had mentioned it. This individual's description would be generally consistent with that offered of the ‘mystery woman’ in media during the past year. I recall nothing said that would have suggested that Ray and this individual had been seen together, during that weekend or at any other time.

[gstickley]

from JK Arnold's website

Ray's absence at that point was to my perception clearly being theorized to be volitional and likely in the company of an individual personally known to me to have had a long-standing friendship and admiration for him, and to be a smoker. It was not suggested to me then, nor have I ever heard it suggested at any time since, that the relationship had evolved to a romantic one. I did not know at that time why this particular individual had become an early focus, and assumed at the time that perhaps other longer-term DA staff who would also have been aware of the friendship had mentioned it. This individual's description would be generally consistent with that offered of the ‘mystery woman’ in media during the past year. I recall nothing said that would have suggested that Ray and this individual had been seen together, during that weekend or at any other time.

I recall nothing said that would have suggested that Ray and this individual had been seen together, during that weekend or at any other time. [/i]

A District Attorney has disappeared, & that disappearance has been reported to LE. Within 2 days after the report, on Sun., 04/17/05, LE is already "theorizing" that RG may have left of his own volition & in the company of a certain individual. In fact, the "lead investigator" stated that there wasn't much concern until RG didn't show up for court on Mon., 04/18/05.

Question: Why did LE "theorize" that RG had left by his on volition?
Question: Why did LE "theorize" that RG may have left with a certain lady?
Question: Who gave LE this info. to "theorize" about?
Question: Why did LE never investigate the possibility that RG met with foul play?

[Politigal]

I recall nothing said that would have suggested that Ray and this individual had been seen together, during that weekend or at any other time. [/i]

A District Attorney has disappeared, & that disappearance has been reported to LE. Within 2 days after the report, on Sun., 04/17/05, LE is already "theorizing" that RG may have left of his own volition & in the company of a certain individual. In fact, the "lead investigator" stated that there wasn't much concern until RG didn't show up for court on Mon., 04/18/05.

Question: Why did LE "theorize" that RG had left by his on volition?
Question: Why did LE "theorize" that RG may have left with a certain lady?
Question: Who gave LE this info. to "theorize" about?
Question: Why did LE never investigate the possibility that RG met with foul play?

And, whoever *did* prompt the theory that RG left of his own volition, apparently convinced Patty as well....hence her statement "we will wait for as long as we need to."

[gstickley]

And, whoever *did* prompt the theory that RG left of his own volition, apparently convinced Patty as well....hence her statement "we will wait for as long as we need to."

I think you must be right, Pgal. Else, why would she have reported to LE that he was missing & why would LE put out the BOLO on the Mini, do the air search on Sat., 04/16, unless there was some panic in the beginning?

(Maybe it was the famous, on-everyone's-lips, widely touted "walkaway" when the poor man took off one time for a ballgame without telling anyone that started the "Walkaway Theory".) :cursing:

[UndertheRadar]

Sounds more to me like they originally were looking for a possible accident scene or someone who was possibly in some state of fugue or confusion. After the car was found with what was considered no 'evidence' of foul play, it seems then the question of his possibly having left with a MW came into play.
JMO

Given DZ's statement about the smell of smoke, the cigarette butts, and the "wild weekend," it has always seemed to me that those elements either gave birth to the MW theory or reinforced that suggestion (if it had been put for from another source). DZ seemed to me particularly fascinated by the theory, given his statement that RG would have to explain later to PF why he was "doing this" to her.

[Politigal]

Given DZ's statement about the smell of smoke, the cigarette butts, and the "wild weekend," it has always seemed to me that those elements either gave birth to the MW theory or reinforced that suggestion (if it had been put for from another source). DZ seemed to me particularly fascinated by the theory, given his statement that RG would have to explain later to PF why he was "doing this" to her.


It still puzzles me why Zaccagni would think RG would do that to Patty.

[Serendipitous1]

It still puzzles me why Zaccagni would think RG would do that to Patty.Because he's a man? ...:wink:

[Politigal]

Because he's a man? ...:wink:

and projecting his own fantasies?

[J. J. in Phila]

It still puzzles me why Zaccagni would think RG would do that to Patty.


Buehner has also raised that possibility and a few folks seen to considered the same possibility.

[Politigal]

Just some research on motives for homicide, especially homicides comitted by females ---

http://dmmoyle.com/didig.htm

Three quarters of all homicide victims were killed by someone they knew.

http://www.druglibrary.org/SCHAFFER/library/graphs/12.htm

It appears arguments are high on the scale of motives.

http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/cfi/cfi110.html
Domestic arguments account for the highest percentage. Note: Domestic includes jealousy, desertion/termination of relationship, and other domestic altercation.

http://books.google.com/books?id=mJmxfwy5l1AC&pg=PA174&lpg=PA174&dq=homicide+motives&source=web&ots=Xwwc5pe1UX&sig=xg6VIxZvhaVe80E9-Jcd4kJJaik&hl=en&ei=AuaQSd-EFpW6twed8I3SCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPA175,M1

Argument/fight = 48.6%

http://tinyurl.com/atrfpa
Motive in itself is seldom an element of any given crime; however, the legal system typically allows motive to be proven in order to make plausible the accused's reasons for committing a crime, at least when those motives may be obscure or hard to identify with.

[J. J. in Phila]

You are assuming a few things. First, that there was a crime. Second, that all the rest of these folks made enemies of people, criminals, by prosecuting them for 32 years.

[Politigal]

I don't believe I was assuming anything in my post about homicide motives.

I do believe that foul play is the most likely reason for Gricar's disappearance....and I believe it's probable that someone close to him is responsible.

I wanted to show just how common that domestic arguments are as a cause of homicide.

[Cloudbuster]

Tony DeBoef is a friend and colleague of the missing prosecutor.

Tony, what can you tell us tonight? What do you think happened?

TONY DEBOEF, FRIEND OF RAY GRICAR: Well, as you well know, being a prosecutor yourself at one time, oftentimes, people do interesting things. You can`t really ask yourself why, but look at the facts of what we know.

GRACE: Well, what do you think happened? Of course people do interesting things. That`s why they land behind bars. But your friend was a felony prosecutor. What do you think happened to him? Foul play? Has he just gone on a walkabout? What?

DEBOEF: He`s definitely been missing for seven days. He would have definitely told his family, particularly his daughter if he was just going for a trip or vacation. He missed hearings this week. He is a thinking man`s DA. He tried all the serious cases in this county. He was very methodical. He was very good at what he does.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: What kind of cases did he handle?

DEBOEF: He handled and still on the docket handles several cases involving, you know, death in the community. He always handles...

GRACE: That would be murder?

DEBOEF: Yes, murders.

GRACE: He handles murder cases?

DEBOEF: Murders, you know, shaken baby syndromes. We have one of those right now. But, particularly, he did all the domestic violence cases.

GRACE: Let me go to Chris Cekot, WTHA reporter.

Did police get a search warrant for what and why?

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0504/22/ng.01.html

[J. J. in Phila]

The main reason it stood out was because Grace asked and because DP cases were rare in Centre County.

[Cloudbuster]

Looking at what Deboef had said it seems shaken baby syndrome came out first like in first impressions. LW I think you hit motive if foul play turns up. It seems like someone knew the process of elimination would put LM on the case. Someone had to know where LM stood on this case. That someone had to be in the CH. We know LM would know, at least you would think he knew. Possibly the judge? The laptop might of been used for investagation evidence. I still think that hard drive was switched by RG and the orginal hard drive hidden. I think someone thought they got the orginal hard drive but I don't believe they did.
Just a opinion.

[J. J. in Phila]

Looking at what Deboef had said it seems shaken baby syndrome came out first like in first impressions. LW I think you hit motive if foul play turns up. It seems like someone knew the process of elimination would put LM on the case. Someone had to know where LM stood on this case. That someone had to be in the CH. We know LM would know, at least you would think he knew. Possibly the judge? The laptop might of been used for investagation evidence. I still think that hard drive was switched by RG and the orginal hard drive hidden. I think someone thought they got the orginal hard drive but I don't believe they did.
Just a opinion.


We have seen that LM did like to talk to numerous people, at least since 2006. ;)

The problem is, however, that they couldn't be sure LM would drop the charge, and, in fact, he didn't.

[J. J. in Phila]

"Continued," in this sense, means that it was postponed. It would mean that one or the other side (or both) were not ready to go to trial. Since Vargas was getting new lawyers, that would be one of the most likely possibilities.

I'm not sure when the evidence would have to be disclosed to the defense, but it would have to be. Also, RFG did not gather evidence himself, so someone would have gotten it and given it to him. It certainly would not be uniquely on the laptop.

[gstickley]

Quite often a DA gathers his own evidence. Quite often a DA can get tips from people who contact him directly instead of going through LE. Quite often it is the DA who contacts LE with information, etc. IMO, a good DA is completely involved in the investigation he is about to take to court. And, IMO, Ray Gricar was a good DA.

[Cloudbuster]

I think a few in the CH knew that the only person in the way was RG in this case. LM clearly feared the 2 new lawyers who were not even currently doing cases. Thats even weirder. What made them take this case in the first place? DP case cost on average 2.3 million dollars. RG's evidence had to be pretty darn good being that the father was held without bail for 2 years. It really had to be good evidence to accomplish that. This case could also cause problems with PuertoRicco. Someone high up IMO didn't want that either. Another thing the DP case would get alot of publicity taking away from the TC 's drug bust when trying to get publicity for election time imoo. It would be bad timing for such a case.

[J. J. in Phila]

I think a few in the CH knew that the only person in the way was RG in this case. LM clearly feared the 2 new lawyers who were not even currently doing cases. Thats even weirder. What made them take this case in the first place? DP case cost on average 2.3 million dollars. RG's evidence had to be pretty darn good being that the father was held without bail for 2 years. It really had to be good evidence to accomplish that. This case could also cause problems with PuertoRicco. Someone high up IMO didn't want that either. Another thing the DP case would get alot of publicity taking away from the TC 's drug bust when trying to get publicity for election time imoo. It would be bad timing for such a case.

Haymeyer had a long record of medical cases and worked with Dr. Morton before. LM feared the medical evidence.

[Cloudbuster]

He also feared the 2 heavy weights.
One of Vargas' attorneys, Roy DeCaro, told Brown that experts working for the defense filed medical reports that showed that Vargas' child died as a result of a blood disorder, not shaken baby syndrome. He made a motion to file the reports as exhibits, but Assistant District Attorney Lance Marshall asked that they be kept confidential. "We disagree with the reports," Marshall said. After the sentencing, DeCaro said Vargas maintains his innocence but decided to plead no contest to avoid more jail time. "When you need to have a choice between walking out or going to prison ... for life, there's really no contest," DeCaro said. Marshall, in a statement to the press after the sentencing, said the sentence may seem st! range but that investigations in the past six months brought the case down a different path than originally envisioned by prosecutors. "Reviewing all the evidence ... this is where the facts led us," he said of the plea. "If Mr. Vargas had not spent one day in jail, we would have asked for two to four years. He's already served the amount of time we would have asked for."
http://www.thepowerhour.com/news2/mendez_freed.htm
------------------------------------------------------------------
Prosecutor Marshall said that wasn't going to happen, though he said the original first-degree-murder charge - which was not his decision - was a reach.

"We had no evidence of motive," Marshall said. "Why would he want to kill his baby?"

Still, he said there was no chance that doctors Morton and Rorke-Adams were right.

"If I thought they might be right, then we would've dismissed the charges," the prosecutor said. "You've heard the maxim that the simplest explanation is most often the correct one? To me, this kid had all the classic symptoms of shaken baby. That just seemed to be the easiest explanation."

In the eyes of Morton and Hehmeyer, the hospital not only made a mistake and accused a parent of the unthinkable, it did so twice.

"What angers me about this story is that it happened at Geisinger, where it had happened once before," Hehmeyer said. "And what angers me is that the D.A.'s Office did not let him off. They offered him this choice which was not a choice. He lost two years of his life."

Bleeding disorders are uncommon, but emergency-room physicians are supposed to keep them in the back of their minds.

Hamory, Geisinger's chief medical officer, doesn't dispute that Lucas had certain symptoms that an underlying disease can cause. Yet despite the results of the PIVKA test, he said, the symptoms as a whole spelled abuse.

"It's the constellation of findings," Hamory said.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/homepage/10847837.html?viewAll=y

[Cloudbuster]

Ya know maybe it's me but it's like LM is condridicting himself. He is saying one thing and meaning another.:confused: Yea if it seems strange that's because it is. I just wonder if Ray's laptop held the motive evidence? I see the disposition date was 11-14-2005 and yea the case took place during a time that Ray would have still been there. Boy oh boy. I think this is a possible motive for not wanting someone to prosecute a case. It should be scrutinized by the.... what do I wanta put hmmm by now just the public I guess, or maybe we can call ghost busters lol.

[Cloudbuster]

Haymeyer had a long record of medical cases and worked with Dr. Morton before. LM feared the medical evidence.


Marshall disagreed with the reports and wanted them confidential. Was it because he thought they was changed possibly? Im sorry but LM was acting IMO strangly on this case period. Im not saying that because of the recent things brought out against him.

I do believe Ray trusted LM to do this case if he wasn't going to be there to do it. (meaning if he retired before the case happened). Do you honestly believe Ray would do that at the time if he and LM disagreed about this case? They had to be in agreement. After Ray disappears LM is not in total agreement? Why is that? What caused him to change his mind? Fear? Or seeing Ray disappeared? Or something else? Oh geez I hope he wasn't falling for any text messages.

[Cloudbuster]

Now I see why they suspected the mom too in the beginning. She only was gone 40 minutes when this occurred.

http://www.informedchoice.info/SIDS_aux3.php#anec
The doctors there concurred with the first physician’s diagnosis and had suspected that we had shaken our son. The cardiologist even inquired as to whether we had remembered dropping him from a second story window! We knew we were innocent of wrongdoing and did not understand why we were being treated with contempt and suspicion. We were impatient with these unnecessary delays. Our precious Baby Lucas lay in a coma; what mattered most was to be with him.

Tragically, on August 27th, approximately 40 minutes after I had left our home for a meeting at the school where I taught, Lucas stopped breathing while in Alejandro’s care.

[J. J. in Phila]

Marshall disagreed with the reports and wanted them confidential. Was it because he thought they was changed possibly? Im sorry but LM was acting IMO strangly on this case period. Im not saying that because of the recent things brought out against him.

I do believe Ray trusted LM to do this case if he wasn't going to be there to do it. (meaning if he retired before the case happened). Do you honestly believe Ray would do that at the time if he and LM disagreed about this case? They had to be in agreement. After Ray disappears LM is not in total agreement? Why is that? What caused him to change his mind? Fear? Or seeing Ray disappeared? Or something else? Oh geez I hope he wasn't falling for any text messages.


LM, and the office were "scared" to release the reports of Morton, Rourke, and the state review committee, especially the latter. I'm not sure about the first two, but that committee didn't meet until the summer of 2005, several months after RFG disappeared. It was requested to review the by Hehmeyer, et al., after they came on the case.

[gstickley]

CRY OF THE HEART (from Tools For Transmation)
Stop Hurting The Children
Pharmaceutical Terrorism & The Medical Insanity of Vaccines
by Mark Sircus Ac, OMD
Quote
"Murder By Injection
SHAKEN BABY SYNDROME is murder. The only question is guilt. District Attorney Ray Gricar said last week that he'd pursue the death penalty for a Boalsburg man accused of killing his 3-month-old son about a year ago. 'Because of the age of the child, it will be a capital case,' Gricar said after a district justice ruled there is enough evidence against 29-year-old Alejandro Mendez Vargas to send the case to trial. Vargas was charged with first- and third-degree murder last month in the death of his infant son Lucas, whom medical officials say died of shaken baby syndrome Sept. 2, 2002. " Quotehttp://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache...nk&cd=28&gl=us

It's obvious that RG & the District Justice both felt there was enough evidence to send AVM to trial, 1st & 3rd Deg. Murder; this would have been approx. a year after the death of the baby.

What occurred from Apr. 2005, when RG disappeared until the time the 1st Deg. Murder charge was dropped by the Judge????? I realize this is asking Cloudbuster's questions all over again, but IMO this is important enough to stay in the mainstream for awhile (esp. in light of events occurring in the past couple weeks). RG's evidence was sufficient until his disappearance, or the charge would have been dropped prior to his disappearance. Again, why was the 1st Deg. Murder charge dropped after RG disappeared???

[Politigal]

S1 dug this up recently - a post by Luster/Parlor/JKA (assuming)

"Don't know whether it adds anything, but from what I've heard, the VM situation during the year of investigation was handled not by G[ricar] or LM, but the now-'disappeared' KA, including the medical vetting, and up until the time charges were filed and VM was picked up.

With particular reference to S's recent comment, my information would suggest she was totally on board as to the appropriateness of 1st degree, the strength of the evidence and was no advocate in defense of VM. Thus, S, I believe we can safely assume that if your theory of 'pressure' from 'within the office' would prove true, it was coming from some other source. What I have heard said was that she was less than convinced about the dp request, given VM's age, lack of other convictions, that kind of thing. At any rate, obviously G did ask for the dp, took the case and of course still had it when he disappeared.

I don't know that this has any particular significance other than perhaps in terms of shedding light on the extent of LM's 'historical' involvement/role in the case prior to the time it ended up on his plate by virtue of G's disappearance and some opinions expressed on the board that I at least find singularly likely to be fallacious. LM was an assistant, a helper, to G in G's prosecution of the case toward trial. I've never heard anyone suggest that G. ever contemplated that LM would try the case if had to be tried? If anyone has heard otherwise, please weigh in.

In the past, ADA Sloane had performed a similar but more extensive role in G's 1st degree cases. As a 'second chair' in court for one. But his involvement went a bit further. While the media rarely raised it to G, locals will likely remember that G. himself had some personal reticence about arguing for the dp. It was his practice in these cases to try the case to conviction, then, if conviction included a dp offense, to ask an assistant to make the death penalty argument to the jury. Sloane for sure did this in one dp case, and perhaps others as well. Pure assumption but I would surmise that Sloane was just not an option in VM because of his extended disability leave. Otherwise, it would seem he was the most likely choice, effectively the only choice to try the case if G. had for some reason not wished to do it.

All of this may be worth something or nothing. Readers can decide for themselves. I raise it only because the more I hear the claims about how things 'changed' so dramatically in VM after G. disappeared - which are always it seems coupled with opinions that for sure exactly the same thing would have happened in VM had G. not disappeared - the more I find them to be total, complete BUNK.

LM appears to have had zero involvement in the VM investigation, charging decision or initial medical vetting. He then had some portion of two years working as an assistant to G. on the case. He had no prior experience (to G's 30+ years) in evaluating 1st degree charges and what it takes to prove them to a jury. He had no experience trying a 1st degree case, even as second chair or penalty phase counsel. As far as I have ever heard, he had no experience trying a shaken baby case of any type. Add to that the peculiar spectacle of the county's most senior judge blissfully unaware for more than 2 years that he is holding a man in jail without sufficient evidence to support the most significant charge and the one which forbids him bail. And add in two TEAMS of counsel experienced specifically in dp defense, two of the four members of which have been in practice at least 40 years in one case and 30 in another - combined experience of 70+ years of practice - all, to a one, simply unable to figure out that maybe they should file a challenge to the evidence (JJ's theory) on a charge for which their client could be executed. One of these teams is to boot being paid for by the County under direction of the judge to zealously represent the interests of VM. Then, just like the sleight of hand it so much suggests, when G. disappears overnight LM is supposed to be discovering things that G. missed, and that the court missed and that all prior counsel missed.

Just total BUNK. IMO, LW, you win this one hands down. Regardless of whether the ultimate result was LM bowing to inexperience, intimidation or incompetence, or if there is some darker relationship between the result and G's disappearance. All JMO." [lustorumanimae, 1/1/07]

I highlighted a section in red that says the most IMO.

[J. J. in Phila]

GS, the district justice is a very minor first step in a felony prosecution; it basically is, with very minor evidence, an opinion that "maybe" a crime was committed. Some of RFG's cases didn't get that far, and RFG did appeal several times.

[gstickley]

S1 dug this up recently - a post by Luster/Parlor/JKA (assuming)

"Don't know whether it adds anything, but from what I've heard, the VM situation during the year of investigation was handled not by G[ricar] or LM, but the now-'disappeared' KA, including the medical vetting, and up until the time charges were filed and VM was picked up.

With particular reference to S's recent comment, my information would suggest she was totally on board as to the appropriateness of 1st degree, the strength of the evidence and was no advocate in defense of VM. Thus, S, I believe we can safely assume that if your theory of 'pressure' from 'within the office' would prove true, it was coming from some other source. What I have heard said was that she was less than convinced about the dp request, given VM's age, lack of other convictions, that kind of thing. At any rate, obviously G did ask for the dp, took the case and of course still had it when he disappeared.

I don't know that this has any particular significance other than perhaps in terms of shedding light on the extent of LM's 'historical' involvement/role in the case prior to the time it ended up on his plate by virtue of G's disappearance and some opinions expressed on the board that I at least find singularly likely to be fallacious. LM was an assistant, a helper, to G in G's prosecution of the case toward trial. I've never heard anyone suggest that G. ever contemplated that LM would try the case if had to be tried? If anyone has heard otherwise, please weigh in.

In the past, ADA Sloane had performed a similar but more extensive role in G's 1st degree cases. As a 'second chair' in court for one. But his involvement went a bit further. While the media rarely raised it to G, locals will likely remember that G. himself had some personal reticence about arguing for the dp. It was his practice in these cases to try the case to conviction, then, if conviction included a dp offense, to ask an assistant to make the death penalty argument to the jury. Sloane for sure did this in one dp case, and perhaps others as well. Pure assumption but I would surmise that Sloane was just not an option in VM because of his extended disability leave. Otherwise, it would seem he was the most likely choice, effectively the only choice to try the case if G. had for some reason not wished to do it.

All of this may be worth something or nothing. Readers can decide for themselves. I raise it only because the more I hear the claims about how things 'changed' so dramatically in VM after G. disappeared - which are always it seems coupled with opinions that for sure exactly the same thing would have happened in VM had G. not disappeared - the more I find them to be total, complete BUNK.

LM appears to have had zero involvement in the VM investigation, charging decision or initial medical vetting. He then had some portion of two years working as an assistant to G. on the case. He had no prior experience (to G's 30+ years) in evaluating 1st degree charges and what it takes to prove them to a jury. He had no experience trying a 1st degree case, even as second chair or penalty phase counsel. As far as I have ever heard, he had no experience trying a shaken baby case of any type. Add to that the peculiar spectacle of the county's most senior judge blissfully unaware for more than 2 years that he is holding a man in jail without sufficient evidence to support the most significant charge and the one which forbids him bail. And add in two TEAMS of counsel experienced specifically in dp defense, two of the four members of which have been in practice at least 40 years in one case and 30 in another - combined experience of 70+ years of practice - all, to a one, simply unable to figure out that maybe they should file a challenge to the evidence (JJ's theory) on a charge for which their client could be executed. One of these teams is to boot being paid for by the County under direction of the judge to zealously represent the interests of VM. Then, just like the sleight of hand it so much suggests, when G. disappears overnight LM is supposed to be discovering things that G. missed, and that the court missed and that all prior counsel missed.

Just total BUNK. IMO, LW, you win this one hands down. Regardless of whether the ultimate result was LM bowing to inexperience, intimidation or incompetence, or if there is some darker relationship between the result and G's disappearance. All JMO." [lustorumanimae, 1/1/07]

I highlighted a section in red that says the most IMO.

I especially like this section, Pgal.
Thank you, S1, for preserving this important piece of information.

[Serendipitous1]

I have, more or less, pretty much concluded a "Google News" study of LM. He appears to have done a lot of amazingly good work as an ADA. But there are also indications that he was a "loose cannon", even under RG's tutelage. One case in point: Woman's rape not covered by hate law (http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2003/01/01-21-03tdc/01-21-03dnews-10.asp) versus D.A. says sexual crime covered by revised law (http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2003/01/01-28-03tdc/01-28-03dnews-07.asp)

Side bar: I got a kick from reading about a case where LM prosecuted a high school girls basketball coach for supplying beer to his team...in light of the recent allegations against LM in regard to the Bellefonte mock trial squad.

Cloudbuster - LM quite correctly (IMO) argued against the inclusion of the defense's medical reports in the plea bargain arrangement regarding the shaken baby case. It was to deny what would have been a precedent defense in future shaken baby cases. My concern is with his stated attitude (after the disappearance and in opposition to that of RG) and the plea bargain itself, in light of the other circumstances which have come to light in regard to LM.

gstickley and Politigal - we will never know how the shaken baby case would have played out if RG had been around. Personally though, I was taken aback by KA's rather flippant disregard (on her webpage) of this seemingly important issue, in light of lustorumanimae's remarks here.

[Serendipitous1]

In retrospect (in light of other allegations against LM), my chief concern about lustorumanimae's whole outburst has become this: "Then, just like the sleight of hand it so much suggests, when G. disappears overnight LM is supposed to be discovering things that G. missed, and that the court missed and that all prior counsel missed."

[Politigal]

*If* the Mendez fiasco was simply a case of LM caving (a possibility considered by Luster).....where does that leave us in Gricar's disappearance?

[Serendipitous1]

*If* the Mendez fiasco was simply a case of LM caving (a possibility considered by Luster).....where does that leave us in Gricar's disappearance?In light of the several allegations against him...that he used his office for his own interest (http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/1118858.html)...it leaves us with an obvious chain of hypothetical questions. Are there examples of this type of misbehavior from before April 15, 2005? In rereading last week's CDT article, the former PO said LM's sexual remarks to her began in 2002. When she complained to her supervisor (TB, PF's ex...small world) he apparently told her that is how he (LM) is. So there are indications of a recognized pattern of behavior that could very well have spanned LM's tenure in the DA's office (1999-2008). But when the woman complained to the county HR director in 2006, he apparently did not believe it rose to the level of sexual harassment.

The article also stated that the alleged incident with the BAHS students occurred several years ago. That would have been say 2006 or before. I found LM connections to the Mock Trial group as far back as 2002, but MM (the faculty advisor, not the DA) came on during the '04-'05 school year. Still, this alleged incident could have been during RG's term. This incident is quite different than sexual remarks. It alleges physical contact.

The alleged text messaging episode took place late last year. This episode alleges extremely disturbing behavior, to include an offer to trade sex for getting someone out of a legal jam. What I see is a crescendo of alleged misbehavior, dating back to 2002 and quite possibly before.

Did LM say or do something, particularly in regard to the shaken baby case, which unwittingly contributed to RG's disappearance? This was a high-stakes (death penalty) case, where LM was involved as second chair to RG, and where LM supposedly (after the fact) did not agree with RG on the first degree murder charge. It might not have been "simply a case of LM caving" after the fact.

It was reported in the CDT (3/5/05) that RG said LM might try the case if the trial was pushed back to 2006. There seems to be no angst toward LM in that statement. But a few days later (3/9) CS notices RG's odd behavior at a meeting in judge's chambers in regard to this case. And others noted some sort of change in RG thereafter.

I am not at all saying or even suggesting that LM had any direct or indirect involvement in RG's disappearance. I am just asking the questions which I believe need to be asked.

[Serendipitous1]

*If* the Mendez fiasco was simply a case of LM caving (a possibility considered by Luster).....where does that leave us in Gricar's disappearance?Or did you want to know about Costa Rican gangs operating in the US...a whole 'nuther' chapter? RG's disappearance was timely in regard to the shaken baby case. But there could be no expectation that eliminating RG would have changed the outcome without some indication that, but for RG the murder-one charge (and therefore the dp) would go away.

And I have not forgotten that 'jka' mentioned (1/3/09) "a second ADA who was alleged to have made sexual overtures to police officers." Lots of collateral stones left to turn.

[Politigal]

Or did you want to know about Costa Rican gangs operating in the US...a whole 'nuther' chapter? RG's disappearance was timely in regard to the shaken baby case. But there could be no expectation that eliminating RG would have changed the outcome without some indication that, but for RG the murder-one charge (and therefore the dp) would go away.

And I have not forgotten that 'jka' mentioned (1/3/09) "a second ADA who was alleged to have made sexual overtures to police officers." Lots of collateral stones left to turn.

that second ADA could have been a female :huh:

[Serendipitous1]

that second ADA could have been a female :huh:Absolutely correct. This ain't goin' to be over 'till the fat lady sings!

[Serendipitous1]

In the Daily Collegian article (http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2009/02/16/former_prosecutor_sued.aspx) it was stated that LM had discussed his extramarital affairs with the woman who is now suing him.

I would like to know if LM named names...and if any were (in any way) connected to RG or his cases. I sure hope the AG has grabbed LM's computer(s) by now.

[Cloudbuster]

In the Daily Collegian article (http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2009/02/16/former_prosecutor_sued.aspx) it was stated that LM had discussed his extramarital affairs with the woman who is now suing him.

I would like to know if LM named names...and if any were (in any way) connected to RG or his cases. I sure hope the AG has grabbed LM's computer(s) by now.

S1 they probably didn't. Problem is I think it's only us on this board that really cares. For my own sanity I wished they would of back then checked the ceiling. Boy ain't I dreamin. Yes the only drop down ceiling. Then I could of slept, but probably gone now. Figures.

[Serendipitous1]

S1 they probably didn't. Problem is I think it's only us on this board that really cares. For my own sanity I wished they would of back then checked the ceiling. Boy ain't I dreamin. Yes the only drop down ceiling. Then I could of slept, but probably gone now. Figures.Dropped ceilings...did I miss something, or would this be better placed in the unexplained phenomena thread?

MM properly turned the LM matter over to the AG's office. The AG should certainly want to know what is on LM's computers, etc.

SPM's entry into the DA race (even moreso than TDeB's) tells me that there is still a lot of interest in resolving RG's disappearance. These are people who care, who (unlike MM) are not connected to TC or the PDAA, and who could very well warm up this cold case.

[Cloudbuster]

Dropped ceilings...did I miss something, or would this be better placed in the unexplained phenomena thread?

MM properly turned the LM matter over to the AG's office. The AG should certainly want to know what is on LM's computers, etc.

SPM's entry into the DA race (even moreso than TDeB's) tells me that there is still a lot of interest in resolving RG's disappearance. These are people who care, who (unlike MM) are not connected to TC or the PDAA, and who could very well warm up this cold case.

Probably better off putting it in the unexplained but if they would of checked it would be explainable lol. Im just frustrated and I guess if you combine that with our economy situation the negativity is unbearable. Im honestly considering unpluging all TV's lol. I just feel like we all are trying so hard and we get crumbs to even know if we are going the right directions. Seems like we get very little crumlets to go on. Its almost 4 years now and we only have minute crumbs. I still feel alot is being with held. Im sure S1 you know what I mean. Yet we hang on and continue for the truth. I do believe the right person could warm up this case just as you do. I guess we are not really all alone. It just feels like it at the moment. I think TG leaving us also is upsetting. But its also understanable. I wish LW could get some of his or her questions answered to. I watch all of you put so much effort out and it hurts me to see that those questions remain unanswered! Hugs to all of you because you all deserve it!!!! :smile:

[Politigal]

Dropped ceilings...did I miss something, or would this be better placed in the unexplained phenomena thread?

MM properly turned the LM matter over to the AG's office. The AG should certainly want to know what is on LM's computers, etc.

SPM's entry into the DA race (even moreso than TDeB's) tells me that there is still a lot of interest in resolving RG's disappearance. These are people who care, who (unlike MM) are not connected to TC or the PDAA, and who could very well warm up this cold case.

I'm very happy to see someone else in the race...I think it's great. And as you said, I believe these others will have a lot more interest in renewing the investigation into RG's disappearance.

fingers, legs & eyes crossed

[J. J. in Phila]

I am overjoyed to see this. There are now two candidates who have taken a public position, basically, the MM has not done enough in the Gricar investigation.

RFG my not be the main issue in the campaign, but his disappearance may be one of the string of problems MM has had.

[Politigal]

In looking at other missing person cases, specifically the Haleigh Cummings case, police have repeatedly interviewed, questioned & polygraphed (more than once) *the last known person to have seen* her....

Why didn't Patty get that same scrutiny in this case?

[J. J. in Phila]

In looking at other missing person cases, specifically the Haleigh Cummings case, police have repeatedly interviewed, questioned & polygraphed (more than once) *the last known person to have seen* her....

Why didn't Patty get that same scrutiny in this case?

1. Because PEF wasn't "the last known person to have seen" RFG.

2. Because there was evidence that RFG was at a different location than in proximity to PEF.

3. Because PEF was repeatedly "interviewed and question." I think you might wish to ask why the Harrisburg Woman didn't have a time developed on her.

4. Because PEF's story didn't change; I believe there were changes the Cummings case's witness.

5. Because PEF passed the polygraph; I'm not clear if there were multiple tests for a single person.

Keep spinning.

[J. J. in Phila]

Here is the story: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,497744,00.html

In this case, the last witness's story was shown not to correspond to the evidence.

There was no indication that she had multiple tests.

[Politigal]

I know one of the problems police faced as far as one particular suspect *if* a crime was committed, is that they couldn't determine what her motive might have been.

[Serendipitous1]

I know one of the problems police faced as far as one particular suspect *if* a crime was committed, is that they couldn't determine what her motive might have been."All the facts and circumstances point to" [JW] Gricar said. "Why would he do that?" Lunsford asked. "Motive, your honor, is something we never have to prove," Gricar replied.
(Teacher faces trial in cousin's death (http://web.archive.org/web/20040430192511/www.post-gazette.com/neigh_north/20020530deerlakes4.asp))

[Politigal]

"All the facts and circumstances point to" [JW] Gricar said. "Why would he do that?" Lunsford asked. "Motive, your honor, is something we never have to prove," Gricar replied.
(Teacher faces trial in cousin's death (http://web.archive.org/web/20040430192511/www.post-gazette.com/neigh_north/20020530deerlakes4.asp))

And I completely agree with Gricar...but apparently Bellefonte police feel it's something they need.

[gstickley]

And I completely agree with Gricar...but apparently Bellefonte police feel it's something they need.

I like this too:

"Murder is murder. It's an intentional killing, and that's what we have here. You don't excuse murder because you feel sorry for the perpetrator." Ray F. Gricar


Sadly, this may be appropriate too.

[Politigal]

I like this too:

"Murder is murder. It's an intentional killing, and that's what we have here. You don't excuse murder because you feel sorry for the perpetrator." Ray F. Gricar


Sadly, this may be appropriate too.

It could very well be....


good to see you GS...I've been busy researching on the Haleigh Cummings abduction.....such a sad case.

[gstickley]

Hey, Pgal. I've missed you.

Yep, you're right about the shananigans. There have been quite a lot of shananigans, mis-information, mistakements, twisting & turning, smoke & mirrors, spinning, probably a few lies thrown in for good measure, throughout the past almost 4 years. Also, bullying, name-calling, harassment.

[Serendipitous1]

And I completely agree with Gricar...but apparently Bellefonte police feel it's something they need.Prompted by recent violence and threats to federal judges, there was official discussion in late March 2005, regarding security issues and concerns in Bellefonte (Officials: threats against judges not a problem in Centre County (http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2005/04/04-05-05tdc/04-05-05dnews-03.asp)).

There are some interesting statements (and ironies, perhaps) in the article, which was published just 10 days before the disappearance. And, curiously, RG did not contribute to the article.

[Cloudbuster]

Prompted by recent violence and threats to federal judges, there was official discussion in late March 2005, regarding security issues and concerns in Bellefonte (Officials: threats against judges not a problem in Centre County (http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2005/04/04-05-05tdc/04-05-05dnews-03.asp)).

There are some interesting statements (and ironies, perhaps) in the article, which was published just 10 days before the disappearance. And, curiously, RG did not contribute to the article.

Neat find S1!! The article is dated April 5, 2005. You would think RG would have commented. Funny that he didn't contribute to that article. Perhaps he wasn't asked to participate or was something else going on with him that he didn't want to say? It could be a red flag. The timing is also strange.

[J. J. in Phila]

Neat find S1!! The article is dated April 5, 2005. You would think RG would have commented. Funny that he didn't contribute to that article. Perhaps he wasn't asked to participate or was something else going on with him that he didn't want to say? It could be a red flag. The timing is also strange.

The Atlanta Courthouse shooting took place about a month prior, as mentioned.

I'm not surprised that he didn't comment.

[Serendipitous1]

The Atlanta Courthouse shooting took place about a month prior, as mentioned. I'm not surprised that he didn't comment.I am not surprised that you are not surprised. You have never sensed the local context.

[J. J. in Phila]

I am not surprised that you are not surprised. You have never sensed the local context.

If the context that no judge nor prosecutor was attacked in Centre County, outside of the environs of the Courthouse, because of something they did in the Courthouse, in the 25 years prior to the article being written, I do "sense" it.

(I could actually say the same thing about Cambria County.)