1/19 thru 1/20

[Good_Gawd]

Autopsy Reports:

Two Copper-coated bullets are found.
One in each man.
Both Copper-coated bullets found in the arm wounds of each man.

http://www.firearmsid.com/Bullets/bullet1.htm

[Good_Gawd]

Oh yeah. Let's read it people. 2 shooters.

Yeppers. ITA!

[muska]

I think I finally found the links to the autopsy reports:

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/romeroautopsy.pdf
http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/romansautopsy.pdf

Great find!! If you don't see the report right away, you might just have to scroll down a little. At first I thought I wasn't going to be able to see it.

[FurthurBB]

This makes me really want to know what kind of bullets were in that box. Are they .17s or are they various .22s? If there are not various .22s then the state has a serious problem. IMO

[FurthurBB]

What is up with Tim he had both atherosclerosis and CPOD. That is very odd for a person of only 35. He must have smoked like 3 packs a day and eaten every bad thing known to man. IMO

[Good_Gawd]

WELL! I was over on the other thread wondering why nobody was talking to me. Thanks for the Heads up guys! :cuss:



:tonguewag:

[Good_Gawd]

What is up with Tim he had both atherosclerosis and CPOD. That is very odd for a person of only 35. He must have smoked like 3 packs a day and eaten every bad thing known to man. IMO

39 I think. Still too young. IMO

[Good_Gawd]

So they have this information which they should have had within weeks of the shooting, and still this boy is sitting in jail. :confused:

Unless the killer had a mix of bullets, we don't know. LE said there were no .22 bullets in the house besides the .17 bullets they took. Good Gawd that is funny.

Autopsy seems to point to two guns and two shooters. imo

I still think the child is NO THREAT and should be released.

[Good_Gawd]

You are not alone with those feelings.:wink:

Nope. :wink:

[Cherishlove]

the more i try to put the pieces of the puzzle together the top two suspects are women. there are a few others, but the top two are spouses of the deceased. i just can't shake that feeling.Well one was cheated on and the other out partying shortly afterward, makes most people wonder. I just have a really hard time with what they have done to the little boy. The so called confession was a joke, and a terrible thing they did to that little boy.

[muska]

Here's a short article that give a little info about the types of ballistics' evidence that can be created at a crime scene:

http://www.rock-hill.k12.sc.us/teachers/nwhs/jvenables/virtualcrimes/murderorsuicide/ballistics.htm

[Good_Gawd]

Here's a short article that give a little info about the types of ballistics' evidence that can be created at a crime scene:

http://www.rock-hill.k12.sc.us/teachers/nwhs/jvenables/virtualcrimes/murderorsuicide/ballistics.htm
The gun found by Vincent Price's body wasn't the murder weapon. Clear as day.

[Good_Gawd]

what happened to the other thread? I thought I got blocked for some reason.

I don't know. I thought nobody was talking to me.:lol::lol::lol:

[Good_Gawd]

could be from smoking drugs???

Stupid for someone with CPOD to smoke anything.

[muska]

More info on gun/shell/shell casing identification....mentions the copper coated bullets. Go to the page tiltled caliber to see a picture of all possible .22 caliber bullets.

http://www.firearmsid.com/Bullets/bullet1.htm

[Good_Gawd]

More info on gun/shell/shell casing identification....mentions the copper coated bullets. Go to the page tiltled caliber to see a picture of all possible .22 caliber bullets.

http://www.firearmsid.com/Bullets/bullet1.htm

We need to send Mayberry LE there. :lol:

[Good_Gawd]

just curious was tim's daughters his bio children? the guy sounds like he had a shady past and was wondering? i really don't want to question the deceased since they can't defend themselves. i am so surprised even though it it in his past that vince would have a man like that in and around his only son. i am curious though who did the little boy have a better friendship with tiffany or tim? i do hope and pray that brewer/wood get this boy out of there real soon.

You just quoted part of CA v Giles. Awesome.

Anyway,
I think they are his. He was a heck of a white boy to be living on and buried at an Indian reservation. I Know Tanya is an Indian. Maybe she went on the war path. :eek:


:chicken:

[Crispy]

I'm away for a day and look at all that was found!! I guess next time we need a report I'll just leave and it will show up!:wink:

So there was two copper coated bullets, Any of the reports show they took any other kind of ammo out of the house? After they found these two bullets did they get another search warrant to see if there was more of this kind in the house?

I'll admit I don't know who shot them, but I think St. Johns PD really screwed up this case.

[Good_Gawd]

I'm away for a day and look at all that was found!! I guess next time we need a report I'll just leave and it will show up!:wink:

So there was two copper coated bullets, Any of the reports show they took any other kind of ammo out of the house? After they found these two bullets did they get another search warrant to see if there was more of this kind in the house?

I'll admit I don't know who shot them, but I think St. Johns PD really screwed up this case.
They said no .22's were found.
They DID take the .17's though.
Village Idiots!

[Good_Gawd]

granted, but he did smoke cigs

Two different name brands. :smile:

[Crispy]

the 2 men had layered clothing it seems and jackets. did the boy have on a jacket at any time that day or evening??

I haven't seen anything where they mentioned him wearing a jacket.

[Details]

Holy crap - do I have this right? They find no .22 bullets, somehow decide that the boy must have used the only .22 bullets in the house, right? And even with two types of bullets, they keep it quiet to keep the boy as the top suspect? Insanity!


Oh, to the new poster here - I've considered the boy's mother as a possible suspect - we've discussed that one too. But having a father with a criminal past doesn't make you a criminal, and Tim looks like the primary target of the crime, was in the middle of an affair and had just proposed. The thought that a man cheating on his wife is murdered just after he proposes to his girlfriend, and it's all a coincidence - that's a pretty big coincidence! And she's the only witness against the person arrested, the only evidence against him? It's not impossible, but the odds are ridiculous!

[Jacobtk]

This makes me really want to know what kind of bullets were in that box. Are they .17s or are they various .22s? If there are not various .22s then the state has a serious problem. IMO

From the picture of the box it looks like all the bullets are the same. There is one round that is somewhat clear at the top corner of the lower right of the boy. It looks like a .22 LR (the top of the round looks like the the flatten top of a .22 LR). The other visible rounds seem to look the same.

I think this is probably why the state released an incomplete, apparently edited report to the media. The finding of different types of .22 caliber rounds not only means that there were two shooters, but it undermines the state's case that the boy planned the shootings. Even if the boy was involved, the state would have a very hard time proving that he shot both men without being manipulated, coerced or threatened.

[Details]

The fact they found no .22 bullets says quite something too. Where do they propose the boy got his bullets?


Reading the autopsy, the one thing I'd want to be sure of is that they really are different bullets - not that they just simply omitted the word Copper now and again. But two shooters really fits a lot better, especially with the shots from both upstairs and down on the father.

[Jacobtk]

Question: Both of the reports are dated November 8. We are into January, and these reports indicate two different bullets. What is Woods doing about this. Is he sitting on his hands or what!

There is nothing Brewer and Woods can do until they get access to the evidence and are allowed to test it themselves or review the state's analysis. Certainly the finding of two types of .22 rounds implies that the boy was either not involved or not the only shooter (the latter of which implies that he was manipulated or threatened). However, it does not exonerate the boy. His attorneys will need someone else to confess to the crime or the state's tests must come back without any prints at all or prints that do not match the boy's. I would suspect that the constant delays in the turning over of evidence from the state to the defense is a good indication that they have the results and they either do not point to the boy at all or they play someone else also at the scene.

I do not think that Woods has done right by this kid. He had help offered to him by people that are seasoned at child rights violation cases and turned them down. Why? I had heard there was at least one high profile expert who offered help and was turned down. Why?

I have not heard anything about that. In fact, Brewer and Woods hired on one of the best experts in false confessions early on. It seems unlikely that they would turn down help unless the help was too expensive for them to pay for. Do you have a link?

[GentleBreeze]

It doesn't prove there were two shooters! :blink:

That's quite a leap!

You are right it doesn't. It just means out of the 10 .22 bullets fired, two of them were copper coated, which can be shot from the same weapon, as the suspected murder weapon.

[Crispy]

For some reason it bugs me, that for Romans, all but one shot was in a right to left direction. I'm not sure yet why it bugs me or why it stood out to me.

[Details]

You are right it doesn't. It just means out of the 10 .22 bullets fired, two of them were copper coated, which can be shot from the same weapon, as the suspected murder weapon.More than 2 copper coated, actually, when you read the autopsy report - I think I saw 3, maybe 4. But still - it's not a certain thing - but combined with a total lack of ammunition present (out of all the ammo they had in that house, laying around - no wonder they took the .17 bullets - they were the only ones there to fit the Chipmunk) - it sure does imply some issues there. One person using two types of ammo - but no boxes of either of those types present.

[GentleBreeze]

I have not heard anything about that. In fact, Brewer and Woods hired on one of the best experts in false confessions early on. It seems unlikely that they would turn down help unless the help was too expensive for them to pay for. Do you have a link?

Judge Roca never ruled on the false confession expert one way or the other.

Since the DA has said he will not use the confession unless the boy testifies and I don't believe he will testify, then there is no need for the confession expert especially if JR tosses the entire thing.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

oh come on, for pete's sake. how many 22 weapons are there out there. is the boys chipmunk the only one in existence???

At this crime scene? Yes, seems so. I doubt when he collected the bullets he would have thrown the two who were copper coated back, knowing they would work just fine in his gun.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Time will tell. Guess we'll both have to wait for ballistics

Yes, I think the strike marks will tell the tale.

imo

[Details]

At this crime scene? Yes, seems so. I doubt when he collected the bullets he would have thrown the two who were copper coated back, knowing they would work just fine in his gun.

imooCollected the bullets from where? They didn't find any boxes of .22 ammunition, let alone an empty box of copper coated and a box of regular with 6-8 shells missing.

And there's no reason, other than laziness, to expect that a weapon at a crime scene will be the murder weapon. They just don't know that. Nor do we. A killer generally keeps his own gun with him - at least until he can find a handy place to hide it, and all the evidence on it.

[Hawk]

At this crime scene? Yes, seems so. I doubt when he collected the bullets he would have thrown the two who were copper coated back, knowing they would work just fine in his gun.

imoo

There may have been several variations of .22 ammo in the .17 HMR stash box from several different manufacturers. Remington, Winchester, CCI, etc. Collected over a long period of time.

[GentleBreeze]

There may have been several variations of .22 ammo in the .17 HMR stash box from several different manufacturers. Remington, Winchester, CCI, etc. Collected over a long period of time.

I agree. My husband does the same thing when he comes in from using his .22 rifle, if he has two or three leftover he will just put them in a box that has assorted .22 bullets in it.

imoo

[Crispy]

I'm thinking(everybody stand back LOL) that maybe the graze to the left side of the head and the left to right chest shots were fired first? My only problem with that is that it struck the pericardial sac, wouldn't that be a pretty debilitating injury?

[Details]

I'm thinking(everybody stand back LOL) that maybe the graze to the left side of the head and the left to right chest shots were fired first? My only problem with that is that it struck the pericardial sac, wouldn't that be a pretty debilitating injury?They'd have a few minutes, IIRC, of being fairly OK with the pericardial sac. It'd take a little time for pressure to build.

But with the full autopsy, it's clear every shot to Tim was pretty deadly all by itself. The 'left arm' shot involves the lung? That's a heavy hit! Then two more chest shots, three (IIRC) head shots, two of which would have been clear kill shots. The father - he's got one graze, a back shot, then the head shots, one from each side of the head - I thought that was interesting. I can't figure out which would be from the top of the stairs - none of them seem to fit that.

[Hawk]

I agree. My husband does the same thing when he comes in from using his .22 rifle, if he has two or three leftover he will just put them in a box that has assorted .22 bullets in it.

imoo

Right. It's a very common and practical thing to do with .22 rounds. Everyone I know does it.

[muska]

ok, at this crime scene, but i said out there, meaning somewhere else besides the crime scene. how many other homicides is the actual gun not at the crime scene.

The murder weapon is usually not found at the murder scene because the murderer usually takes it with him/her.

[muska]

There may have been several variations of .22 ammo in the .17 HMR stash box from several different manufacturers. Remington, Winchester, CCI, etc. Collected over a long period of time.

They could be from the box, but they could also very, very possibly indicate two shooters.....definitely another problem for police....a little more doubt.

[Crispy]

Right. It's a very common and practical thing to do with .22 rounds. Everyone I know does it.

I agree it's possible, but shouldn't LE have listed there were different brands of ammo? If the boy just reached in the box and took some out there could be different brands of ammo used and I would think that would be important.

Maybe in another report he listed every type?

[Hawk]

I agree it's possible, but shouldn't LE have listed there were different brands of ammo? If the boy just reached in the box and took some out there could be different brands of ammo used and I would think that would be important.

Maybe in another report he listed every type?

I agree. You would think that the contents of the ammo box would be inventoried and listed on an evidence sheet. Isn't this as important as the contents of each man's wallet?

[Good_Gawd]

Right. It's a very common and practical thing to do with .22 rounds. Everyone I know does it.

What? Put them in a .17 box? You do that? :confused:

[Crispy]

Not as important as the ballistics matching the boys gun.

It could be very important when it comes to chain of command on evidence. If they don't know how many or what kinds of ammo is in that box, then anybody can say anything they want about it. It shows sloppy police work and it can go towards the credibility of the officer collecting and reporting it.

[Good_Gawd]

Not as important as the ballistics matching the boys gun.

Or not matching.

[Good_Gawd]

I agree it's possible, but shouldn't LE have listed there were different brands of ammo? If the boy just reached in the box and took some out there could be different brands of ammo used and I would think that would be important.

Maybe in another report he listed every type?

The child's fingerprints were on the box of ammo, not "in the box" of ammo.

[Jacobtk]

It doesn't prove there were two shooters! :blink:

That's quite a leap!

While it is possible that a single shooter used two types of bullets, the most logical and reasonable explanation is that two different guns were used, which would imply two people were involved. It would also explain how two men could get shot without having any time to come to the other's defense.

[Hawk]

What? Put them in a .17 box? You do that? :confused:

Place then in any type box that is durable and convenient. Doesn't even have to be a ammunition box.

[Details]

I have a private email from someone who offered to help early on and this person is experienced at children's rights advocacy and children's rights violations cases. And he was turned down. All I can say is, why?There are many reasons why that are possible. The person might not have had experience in that area. They may have felt they had it well covered with another expert in that area. The person may have come on like a publicity hound who would be a problem.

We really don't know why, but there are many valid reasons.

[muska]

It could be very important when it comes to chain of command on evidence. If they don't know how many or what kinds of ammo is in that box, then anybody can say anything they want about it. It shows sloppy police work and it can go towards the credibility of the officer collecting and reporting it.

How can they say the child used two different types of bullets if they only listed one type? And how likely is it that the kid took the only two or three copper colored shells from the box? There would likely be another one or two of whatever he used - at least. Now, maybe there will be, but they should have been listed. You can only excuse so many mistakes.

[muska]

What? Put them in a .17 box? You do that? :confused:

Seems like it would be one more dangerous thing to do ......what if the wrong type ammunition was grabbed.......someone, like a little kid, might get hurt.

[muska]

While it is possible that a single shooter used two types of bullets, the most logical and reasonable explanation is that two different guns were used, which would imply two people were involved. It would also explain how two men could get shot without having any time to come to the other's defense.

Two shooters would explain a lot.

[Jacobtk]

Not as important as the ballistics matching the boys gun.

Ballistics matching the boy's gun would not prove or even imply the boy is the shooter. Anyone could have used his gun since it was apparently right out in the open. The match that matters are the prints, if any, on the casings.

As for different types of .22 bullets being in the box, one would think that the police would catalog that as it would be important to their case. If the type of .22 rounds found in the box and in the boy's rifle are not the same type as the rounds used to shoot both men, it would mean the shooter brought the rounds with him/her. Not checking that is fairly sloppy police work.

As for the state withholding evidence, they can keep it from the public, but not from the defense. They are required to turn over all reports, analyses and evidence to the defense. The fact that Brewer has asked for evidence at every hearing indicates that the state has not done that, which is illegal. So it is more likely that the state does not have any results or Carlyon is dancing around prosecutorial misconduct charges.

[Hawk]

Seems like it would be one more dangerous thing to do ......what if the wrong type ammunition was grabbed.......someone, like a little kid, might get hurt.

Ammunition will usually only chamber into guns designed for that ammo. A .17 can't be chambered into a .22 rifle. There are, however, exceptions. A .44 magnum round, for example, will easily fit into a .45LC revolver. That can be dangerous. And ruin a gun.

[Good_Gawd]

Ammunition will usually only chamber into guns designed for that ammo. A .17 can't be chambered into a .22 rifle. There are, however, exceptions. A .44 magnum round, for example, will easily fit into a .45LC revolver. That can be dangerous. And ruin a gun.

Why did they take the wrong bullets?

[Hawk]

Why did they take the wrong bullets?

I don't know what was in the box they took or if the .17 HMR (although they look too long to me to be .22LRs) box in the photo is the box Sgt. Rodriguez refers to in his testimony. But I agree that whatever they took should have been systematically listed along with everything else. We all know that 'everything matters' when it comes to evidence. This appears to be a major blunder.
Just my opinion.

[Hawk]

Does paragraph 5 of Mr. Romans autopsy report suggest that he had his arm raised in a defencive position?

[muska]

I mentioned something the other day and no one responded, but in light of the new information that could point to a 2-shooter theory:

Is it possible that there may have been a 2nd shooter that went into Tim's truck looking for something? It has always bothered me that the passenger side door was open. Was Tim driving or was Vince? It was Tim's truck right? Didn't some people see them leaving work and wave to them? Who was driving?

Did they check the car door for prints? What if they were looking for drugs or something else and were after something in that car? They could have been searching the car from the passenger side when the other shooter came out of the house, saw the boy and said "let's get out of here!"


I don't know how significant this could be, but that door being open has always bugged me.

I know they passed by someone from work but I don't think they mentioned who was driving. I have always thought it was TR because it was his truck.

Another thought - Someone suggested that maybe VR left the truck door open that day because he was only running in for a minute. If he did leave the truck door open, I think he would also have left the house door open. If it was warm enough to leave one for a minute, it was warm enough to leave both. And if the front door was open, TR would certainly have heard the shots from inside the house.

[bkwits]

I mentioned something the other day and no one responded, but in light of the new information that could point to a 2-shooter theory:

Is it possible that there may have been a 2nd shooter that went into Tim's truck looking for something? It has always bothered me that the passenger side door was open. Was Tim driving or was Vince? It was Tim's truck right? Didn't some people see them leaving work and wave to them? Who was driving?

Did they check the car door for prints? What if they were looking for drugs or something else and were after something in that car? They could have been searching the car from the passenger side when the other shooter came out of the house, saw the boy and said "let's get out of here!"

I don't know how significant this could be, but that door being open has always bugged me.


IMO, Tim had been driving the truck. It was his truck. I think Vince hurriedly got out the passenger door to run into the house to take off his work gear. Remember they were on their way to help someone with some cabinets. Tim did not have work gear on, so he waited in the truck. Vince left the door open while he ran into the house. Tim may have come around to sit in the passenger seat to talk to Tania.

Don't pick on me. I've falling asleep all morning. I just discovered I had been drinking decafe coffee. :angry:

[Hawk]

I know they passed by someone from work but I don't think they mentioned who was driving. I have always thought it was TR because it was his truck.

Another thought - Someone suggested that maybe VR left the truck door open that day because he was only running in for a minute. If he did leave the truck door open, I think he would also have left the house door open. If it was warm enough to leave one for a minute, it was warm enough to leave both. And if the front door was open, TR would certainly have heard the shots from inside the house.

VR could have pulled the security door shut but left the main door open. I think it was in the 50's by that time of day although much cooler earlier judging from the amount of clothes both men were wearing.

TR probably wouldn't have heard the shots if they were all done upstairs (three solid walls between stairs and truck). If the shots were done downstairs (eliminating two of the three walls and leaving only the exterior wall) chances would increase dramatically that he would have heard the shots.

[muska]

IMO, Tim had been driving the truck. It was his truck. I think Vince hurriedly got out the passenger door to run into the house to take off his work gear. Remember they were on their way to help someone with some cabinets. Tim did not have work gear on, so he waited in the truck. Vince left the door open while he ran into the house. Tim may have come around to sit in the passenger seat to talk to Tania.

Don't pick on me. I've falling asleep all morning. I just discovered I had been drinking decafe coffee. :angry:

Maybe TR was walking around in the yard and driveway as he talked on the phone. Maybe that would explain the blood trail.

[Crispy]

Does paragraph 5 of Mr. Romans autopsy report suggest that he had his arm raised in a defencive position?

I'm trying to use my husband to recreate but he's not being very receptive!! It does sound like his arm is raised, but it's been awhile since I've been in anatomy class!

[Hawk]

Why aren't the supplemental diagrams available? The ones with the human body front and back that ME documents all the wounds and trajectories?

It's so difficult to tell without them.

You have to draw your own. It's extremely helpful to have a diagram in front of you while discussing this case. If you do, you might want to use Sgt. Guinn's description of the house.

[Good_Gawd]

I don't know what was in the box they took or if the .17 HMR (although they look too long to me to be .22LRs) box in the photo is the box Sgt. Rodriguez refers to in his testimony. But I agree that whatever they took should have been systematically listed along with everything else. We all know that 'everything matters' when it comes to evidence. This appears to be a major blunder.
Just my opinion.

This does appear to be a major blunder. Another major blunder IMO.

[muska]

I can't see him leaving the door open at all. They had jackets on so it really wasn't that warm. We really need to know who was driving. If it was Vince driving, then it may make sense that Tim left the door open to run at the house. If Tim was driving that truck, I would think it may very well point to someone rifling through that car from the passenger side and leaving the door open.

I wonder if they checked for prints.

It's also possible that someone was coming after them down the road and TR climbed across the seat and out the passenger side to keep the car between himself and whoever was coming. This was suggested by the boy. I don't think it's likely but I suppose it's possible.

This would only work if TR's weapon, the one(s) in the car were not loaded.....no idea how likely that would be.

[Good_Gawd]

You have to draw your own. If you do, you might want to use Sgt. Guinns description of the house.

I thought it was explained quite well in the autopsy reports.

[Hawk]

I'm trying to use my husband to recreate but he's not being very receptive!! It does sound like his arm is raised, but it's been awhile since I've been in anatomy class!

Well I guess not! You aren't pointing a gun at him are you?

[Good_Gawd]

I'm trying to use my husband to recreate but he's not being very receptive!! It does sound like his arm is raised, but it's been awhile since I've been in anatomy class!

I am coming over. I want to play too! :lol:

[Hawk]

I thought it was explained quite well in the autopsy reports.

I misunderstood. I thought the body locations as well as the wound locations were the question. One doesn't do much good without the other.

[Crispy]

Well I guess not! You aren't pointing a gun at him are you?

Nope, just a pen. LOL

[JusticeDawg©]

O/T

Hi peoples!!!:loveeyes:

Thank you for all of your requests!

[Hawk]

Hi peoples!!!:loveeyes:

Welcome back! You've missed a lot of argu..., uh, good clean discussion.

[muska]

O/T

Hi peoples!!!:loveeyes:

Thank you for all of your requests!


Welcome Back!!!! Thought we had lost you - :biggrin:

[JusticeDawg©]

Welcome back! You've missed a lot of argu..., uh, good clean discussion. I had to prove to CW that I was talking with the defense. It wasn't easy! There is a GAG!!!

You Brat!

[Hawk]

I had to prove to CW that I was talking with the defense. It wasn't easy! There is a GAG!!!

You Brat!

Well, welcome back from exile. What's are your latest thoughts?

[JusticeDawg©]

Welcome Back!!!! Thought we had lost you - :biggrin:
TY!
Not a chance! :biggrin:

[muska]

Thanks for addressing my question, but I still think it is very possible that someone else opened that door. If that is the case, the boy wouldn't be that person. Why would he bother to try to go into the car?

We've considered someone looking for something in the house and in TR's pockets.......and a lot of people seem to believe TR could well have been the target so looking in his car is certainly possible too. It's even possible that the shooter thought about taking the truck...wonder if the keys were in the ignition.

[JusticeDawg©]

I misunderstood. I thought the body locations as well as the wound locations were the question. One doesn't do much good without the other.

The photo of Tim on the porch makes me think he didn't go up the sidewalk, he walked through the driveway.

[Crispy]

Welcome back Dawg!

If we consider the shot to the arm to be the first shot, he could have been raising his arm to put a cigarette in his mouth. ???

[JusticeDawg©]

We've considered someone looking for something in the house and in TR's pockets.......and a lot of people seem to believe TR could well have been the target so looking in his car is certainly possible too. It's even possible that the shooter thought about taking the truck...wonder if the keys were in the ignition.

IMO-They wouldn't have left a gun.

The CD, they would leave. :cool:

I think keys were only found on VR. Anyone?

[dgfred]

I had to prove to CW that I was talking with the defense. It wasn't easy! There is a GAG!!!

You Brat!

Glad you are back! Hit us with some cold, hard facts :thumbup: .

[Hawk]

The photo of Tim on the porch makes me think he didn't go up the sidewalk, he walked through the driveway.

Right. Around the front of the truck. Don't know why Sgt. Guinn would put those little flags in the ground depicting a route. The blood evidence isn't there?

[JusticeDawg©]

Welcome back Dawg!

If we consider the shot to the arm to be the first shot, he could have been raising his arm to put a cigarette in his mouth. ???

Inhaler. Makes sense.

[Crispy]

Right. Around the front of the truck. Don't know why Sgt. Guinn would put those little flags in the ground depicting a route. The blood evidence isn't there?

IIRC, he searched that area and marked it as a safe path to walk to the house without disturbing evidence

[Crispy]

Inhaler. Makes sense.

Yes it does.

[Hawk]

IIRC, he searched that area and marked it as a safe path to walk to the house without disturbing evidence

That makes sense.

[JusticeDawg©]

Right. Around the front of the truck. Don't know why Sgt. Guinn would put those little flags in the ground depicting a route. The blood evidence isn't there?

Red Flags are for staging.

Yellow markers are evidence.

[bkwits]

O/T

Hi peoples!!!:loveeyes:

Thank you for all of your requests!

YIPPPPEEEE. The Dawg came home. :lol:

[JusticeDawg©]

IIRC, he searched that area and marked it as a safe path to walk to the house without disturbing evidence

TY, I was putting my makeup on. :biggrin:

[Hawk]

IMO-They wouldn't have left a gun.

The CD, they would leave. :cool:

I think keys were only found on VR. Anyone?

The keys were found on VR implying that Mr. Romans may have felt a sense of urgency and left his keys in the truck ignition. Would really like to know if the truck was running when LE arrived. You'd think they would note that. Maybe they did and I missed it.

[JusticeDawg©]

The keys were found on VR implying that Mr. Romans may have felt a sense of urgency and left his keys in the truck ignition. Would really like to know if the truck was running when LE arrived. You'd think they would note that. Maybe they did and I missed it.

I can't get out of my mind Tim and Tanya converstions at the hearing when Brewers says "Then the car pulled up" The Sgt. says "that's when the car pulled up.
I don't know if the truck was running.

[Crispy]

I haven't seen where they have mentioned his truck keys at all.

[JusticeDawg©]

I haven't seen where they have mentioned his truck keys at all.

Not even in evidence. Weird.

[Hawk]

I can't get out of my mind Tim and Tanya converstions at the hearing when Brewers says "Then the car pulled up" The Sgt. says "that's when the car pulled up.
I don't know if the truck was running.

You'd think the question would've been asked. It may not be all that important but it seems to me it might help answer a question or two. Urgency, TR's ability to hear gunshots, if in fact they were planning to leave immediately, etc.

[muska]

Not even in evidence. Weird.

Are things ever left off the evidence list intentionally - things that they share among themselves but just don't want the public to know? Or should things like the keys and bullet types be there for sure.

[JusticeDawg©]

You'd think the question would've been asked. It may not be all that important but it seems to me it might help answer a question or two. Urgency, TR's ability to hear gunshots, if in fact they were planning to leave immediately, etc.

Tanya could be the only one to mention that a car pulled up. CR mentions he saw a car leave. I think it all happened very quick. VR left his door open, I think he was coming right back. Sadly, that didn't happen.

[Hawk]

I'm glad I brought up the question about the truck. So we have an open passenger side door. It is Tim's truck, so reason to believe Tim was driving. Why would Vince leave the door open? Where were the keys to the truck? Was it running?

I also remember something about the truck being parked in a different direction that it would typically be.

The plot is thickening.

Oh-and don't forget 2 bullets with brass casings that don't seem to match the others.

Are we getting closer to a 2-shooter theory?

:ohmy:


The truck is registered to Tanya Romans. Mr. Romans circled around to allow Mr. Romero to be closer to the front door. They were leaving when VR returned from inside the house to help a friend with a project.

[JusticeDawg©]

Are things ever left off the evidence list intentionally - things that they share among themselves but just don't want the public to know? Or should things like the keys and bullet types be there for sure.
Ah Disclosure.
If DA/LE are doing it intentionally, it is cause for a mistrial. The state cannot withhold evidence. Things as small as a hair must be listed.

[dgfred]

Ah Disclosure.
If DA/LE are doing it intentionally, it is cause for a mistrial. The state cannot withhold evidence. Things as small as a hair must be listed.


I think the question was: can they trade info/evidence between the prosecution and defense that they do not release to the public?... I think.

[dgfred]

The 'lost' bullet is still bugging me... how could they not find it if was in the house or in the vicinity? Might be a big, jagged piece of the puzzle.

[JusticeDawg©]

I think the question was: can they trade info/evidence between the prosecution and defense that they do not release to the public?... I think.

No, it all has to be public record.

Except with a GAG ORDER. UGH!

[muska]

The truck is registered to Tanya Romans. Mr. Romans circled around to allow Mr. Romero to be closer to the front door. They were leaving when VR returned from inside the house to help a friend with a project.

It's kind of strange that they were leaving right away and Tiffany wasn't home. Where was the eight year old even suppose to be....that's a long time to leave a child, especially when both parents were off from work and could have chosen to come home for him.

[dgfred]

No, it all has to be public record.

Really? So we could possibly see all the information before a trial even starts? I though both sides keep information from the public, with each having their own reasons. I'm in no way arguing, I just don't quite understand.

[Hawk]

The 'lost' bullet is still bugging me... how could they not find it if was in the house or in the vicinity? Might be a big, jagged piece of the puzzle.

It's smaller than a #2 pencil eraser and even if it didn't fragment it would distort. It could be in a neighbors yard, or even farther.

[muska]

I think the question was: can they trade info/evidence between the prosecution and defense that they do not release to the public?... I think.

Yes, thank you! You're clearer than me!

[JusticeDawg©]

I have not seen a photo of Tim lying on the front porch. Where am I missing that? As morbid as it is, I would like to see it so I can get a better idea of where he was.

http://www.kpho.com/slideshow/news/18019101/detail.html

Go to photo # 9

Hide the caption (it covers him), he is lying by the tree on the left side of the porch.

[dgfred]

It's smaller than a #2 pencil eraser and even if it didn't fragment it would distort. It could be in a neighbors yard, or even farther.


I still believe it could be found, or at least would assume so with all the technology of today. It had already gone through some things right?

[Hawk]

It's kind of strange that they were leaving right away and Tiffany wasn't home. Where was the eight year old even suppose to be....that's a long time to leave a child, especially when both parents were off from work and could have chosen to come home for him.

Good point. I think she was due home any minute.

[JusticeDawg©]

Really? So we could possibly see all the information before a trial even starts? I though both sides keep information from the public, with each having their own reasons. I'm in no way arguing, I just don't quite understand.

Only if it is under seal we can't see it.

[dgfred]

Only if it is under seal we can't see it.

OK, I understand. If they both agree to keep it under wraps is it possible or does it have to be a judge's order?

[Hawk]

I still believe it could be found, or at least would assume so with all the technology of today. It had already gone through some things right?

With enough effort they might find it. You couldn't find it with a metal detector.
I suppose they determined it was a small caliber by the wound to Mr. Romans head and certainly by the hole in the security door.

[muska]

Good point. I think she was due home any minute.

She had just gotten to the store....according to reports she'd stopped to talk to friends and had only been in the store about two minutes when she got the boy's call. That was 5:12. If she went straight home after that stop, it would still be close to 6. That's way to long to leave a third grader alone.

I guess it's possible that VR came home to check on him or even to take him along.

[dgfred]

She had just gotten to the store....according to reports she'd stopped to talk to friends and had only been in the store about two minutes when she got the boy's call. That was 5:12. If she went straight home after that stop, it would still be close to 6. That's way to long to leave a third grader alone.

I guess it's possible that VR came home to check on him or even to take him along.

Was she conveniently away, or was this the usual practice for the boy being alone?
He seemed to know what days she was later than others.

[JusticeDawg©]

OK, I understand. If they both agree to keep it under wraps is it possible or does it have to be a judge's order?

They all go in chambers and decide. Yes, the judge has to ok it.

[Hawk]

She had just gotten to the store....according to reports she'd stopped to talk to friends and had only been in the store about two minutes when she got the boy's call. That was 5:12. If she went straight home after that stop, it would still be close to 6. That's way to long to leave a third grader alone.

I guess it's possible that VR came home to check on him or even to take him along.

St. Johns tiny. There may be only one grocery store. Anyway, she could have gone the couple of miles home to pick the boy up before shopping. I agree. No one in my family (including his mom and dad) will leave my 8 year old grandson alone for five minutes. No telling what he might do.

[JusticeDawg©]

She had just gotten to the store....according to reports she'd stopped to talk to friends and had only been in the store about two minutes when she got the boy's call. That was 5:12. If she went straight home after that stop, it would still be close to 6. That's way to long to leave a third grader alone.

I guess it's possible that VR came home to check on him or even to take him along.

I thought she didn't answer the phone a 5:12?

[JusticeDawg©]

She had just gotten to the store....according to reports she'd stopped to talk to friends and had only been in the store about two minutes when she got the boy's call. That was 5:12. If she went straight home after that stop, it would still be close to 6. That's way to long to leave a third grader alone.

I guess it's possible that VR came home to check on him or even to take him along.

The reciept for spaghetti said 4:43. Did she talk to them after shopping the second time?

[Hawk]

The reciept for spaghetti said 4:43. Did she talk to them after shopping the second time?

An extraordinary amount of concern for the child wasn't there?

[Perplexed1]

It's kind of strange that they were leaving right away and Tiffany wasn't home. Where was the eight year old even suppose to be....that's a long time to leave a child, especially when both parents were off from work and could have chosen to come home for him.

It's a set up if the shooter is tiffany. SAYS she's at the store. VR stops to pick up the boy. Vr runs into gunfire, as well as tim. Tiff runs back to store, while little boy comes home to find mess. Calls tiff, that just got back to store?

[muska]

I thought she didn't answer the phone a 5:12?

Was it 5:14? I know there was a phone call that wasn't picked up and another two minutes later.

See we need you back to keep all these facts straight. And while you have me thinking of it, was the 911 call at 5:03. That's what we've been using the past few days and I've seen it in various places, but I thought there was one a couple minutes later.

[dgfred]

It's a set up if the shooter is tiffany. SAYS she's at the store. VR stops to pick up the boy. Vr runs into gunfire, as well as tim. Tiff runs back to store, while little boy comes home to find mess. Calls tiff, that just got back to store?


In that scenario do you think the boy was a target too?

[muska]

The reciept for spaghetti said 4:43. Did she talk to them after shopping the second time?

Yes, she talked to the two people who ended up as the emergency paramedics. Then she went to NAPA to order work clothes for VR.

[JusticeDawg©]

Was it 5:14? I know there was a phone call that wasn't picked up and another two minutes later.

See we need you back to keep all these facts straight. And while you have me thinking of it, was the 911 call at 5:03. That's what we've been using the past few days and I've seen it in various places, but I thought there was one a couple minutes later.
One call was shots fired.
One call was man dead on porch.

[Jacobtk]

No, it all has to be public record.

Except with a GAG ORDER. UGH!

It would still have to be submitted to the court if the state intended to use it. It does not seem likely that if the state had solid evidence that they would withhold it.

[Hawk]

Was it 5:14? I know there was a phone call that wasn't picked up and another two minutes later.

See we need you back to keep all these facts straight. And while you have me thinking of it, was the 911 call at 5:03. That's what we've been using the past few days and I've seen it in various places, but I thought there was one a couple minutes later.

The 911 transcript isn't timestamped. (At least the one I saw). Isn't that strange?

[muska]

One call was shots fired.
One call was man dead on porch.

What time did Mr. Davis call?

[JusticeDawg©]

It would still have to be submitted to the court if the state intended to use it. It does not seem likely that if the state had solid evidence that they would withhold it.

If the state had solid evidence, they would be blasting it all over the networks, gag or no gag.

Usually, only exonerating evidence gets withheld.

By law, it must all be given up.

But you know that. :biggrin:

[Perplexed1]

In that scenario do you think the boy was a target too?

No, he was either set up to be the shooter, or Tif knew he wouldn't be in the house.

[JusticeDawg©]

What time did Mr. Davis call?

5:06 pm IIRC

[muska]

The 911 transcript isn't timestamped. (At least the one I saw). Isn't that strange?

So I wonder if we positively have the right times. Maybe the time frame is off a little in certain spots.

[Hawk]

So I wonder if we positively have the right times. Maybe the time frame is off a little in certain spots.

It could be off a lot. But all we have is the St. Johns reports of interviews and witness statements. We know from Tim's cell phone that he talked to his wife from 4:52pm ( a minute or less before Mr. Romero was shot the first two times) until near 4:55pm just before he was shot to pieces. Everything else, without the exact time the 911 calls in, is estimated. Call time could easily be found on Mr. Davis' phone.

[Details]

Nails in floorboard, all throughout the house - might be hard to find a bullet amid the other metal that is naturally present.

[Hawk]

not if it went through the security door like Guinn's report said.


If it went through the door then ricocheted off the concrete porch it could be anywhere.

[Hawk]

Nails in floorboard, all throughout the house - might be hard to find a bullet amid the other metal that is naturally present.

The bullet is non-ferrous. A metal detector won't find it.

[muska]

5:06 pm IIRC

Sorry to keep it up with this but it's been bothering me......I thought that the neighbor who heard the shots didn't really pay attention. Is he the one who called at 5:03? I also thought that the chief reported that call early on but it turned out not to exist......but there were actually two calls - 5:03 and 5:06? Thanks!!!

According to Neckel, the neighbor said he heard the sounds at about 5:05 so how did he get off his call at 5:03 when she reported he didn't even pay attention at first. Seems something might be wrong with that time.....maybe.

[Details]

Sorry to keep it up with this but it's been bothering me......I thought that the neighbor who heard the shots didn't really pay attention. Is he the one who called at 5:03? I also thought that the chief reported that call early on but it turned out not to exist......but there were actually two calls - 5:03 and 5:06? Thanks!!!

According to Neckel, the neighbor said he heard the sounds at about 5:05 so how did he get off his call at 5:03 when she reported he didn't even pay attention at first. Seems something might be wrong with that time.....maybe.People get times wrong - clocks can be set to different times by up to 5 minutes easily enough, personal subjective time can be off, etc.

IIRC, and I'm pretty sure - the 5:03 has been the friend's dad call, the shots fired was later - and they thought they heard the shots at about 5:05...

[muska]

It's a set up if the shooter is tiffany. SAYS she's at the store. VR stops to pick up the boy. Vr runs into gunfire, as well as tim. Tiff runs back to store, while little boy comes home to find mess. Calls tiff, that just got back to store?

And didn't she suggest to someone early on that she was suspicious of him? Point the police away from herself....

If she was involved, I still don't think she'd have done it herself. I think she would have sent someone. She might, though, have been setting up an alibi and a suspect. I don't know.

[JusticeDawg©]

It could be off a lot. But all we have is the St. Johns reports of interviews and witness statements. We know from Tim's cell phone that he talked to his wife from 4:52pm ( a minute or less before Mr. Romero was shot the first two times) until near 4:55pm just before he was shot to pieces. Everything else, without the exact time the 911 calls in, is estimated. Call time could easily be found on Mr. Davis' phone.

TRANSCRIPT OF DETAINED ADVISORY HEARING NOV 2 2008_VOL2 PARTA.pdf
Sgt says 5:07 pm he got the dipatch and arrived at the scene a few minutes later.
So I'd say 911 call came in at 5:06 pm and was dispatched.

[JusticeDawg©]

And didn't she suggest to someone early on that she was suspicious of him? Point the police away from herself....

If she was involved, I still don't think she'd have done it herself. I think she would have sent someone. She might, though, have been setting up an alibi and a suspect. I don't know.

Yes, she told them the men had been fighting with co-workers and at the bar also.
She was pointing away from herself. BIG TIME.

[Jacobtk]

If the state had solid evidence, they would be blasting it all over the networks, gag or no gag.

Usually, only exonerating evidence gets withheld.

By law, it must all be given up.

But you know that. :biggrin:

There is one plausible reason why the state might withhold their evidence: they may be waiting for the competency hearing. If the boy is found incompetent, then all their evidence would be useless. They could get around the legality of withholding the evidence by claiming they are still investigating. I think (though I am not sure) that they do not have to turn over evidence until they have completed reports.

[muska]

TRANSCRIPT OF DETAINED ADVISORY HEARING NOV 2 2008_VOL2 PARTA.pdf
Sgt says 5:07 pm he got the dipatch and arrived at the scene a few minutes later.
So I'd say 911 call came in at 5:06 pm and was dispatched.

Thank you!! Those are the times I remember!

[Hawk]

TRANSCRIPT OF DETAINED ADVISORY HEARING NOV 2 2008_VOL2 PARTA.pdf
Sgt says 5:07 pm he got the dipatch and arrived at the scene a few minutes later.
So I'd say 911 call came in at 5:06 pm and was dispatched.

Surely the dispatcher has an accurate time. Still don't know why they didn't timestamp the transcripts. But I guess it'll all come out in time. (If it's important).

[PensiveOne]

Here is the timeline I put together from the reports. I never found where they said the neighbors called 911, or any time for a second 911 call.

Approx. 3:00 CR gets off of school bus. I cannot find where this is stated as fact. They said approximately in the ADV Hearing Part A.

4:20 P (Brewer INT Neckles) Tiffany at Wilburs to get milk and doughnuts for work.
4:20 – 4:25 P (jones rpt) VR & TR leave work.
4:27 P (avila rpt) VR calls Tiffany on his way home.
4:45 P ( Brewer INT Neckles) Tiffany at Wilburs the second time for spaghetti stuff.
4:40 – 4:45 P (avila rpt) Tiffany’s Dad talks with VR. Time is approximate. Tiffany said 15 minutes after she talked to him.
4:52 P (avila & hogle rpts) Tanya talks to TR
4:55 P (Brewer INT Neckles) Tanya & TR call ends.
5:00 P ( Brewer INT Neckles) Approximate. Tiffany was talking to Jean & Jason Kirk (EMTs) before
going into the NAPA store.
5:00 P to 5:10 P (Rodriquez) Mr. Kilmer from SAW WORLD dropped off his employee and reported he saw 2 trucks. Turned out to be TR’s and the neighbor CR had run to.
5:00 P (Neckles) Neighbor to the North (Hannah) arrives at his home. Hears and sees nothing when he first arrives home nor when he leaves his home 5 minutes later.
5:03 P (Neckles) 911 call is placed by Ray Davis
5:05 P (Neckles) Hannah leaves home to pick up a tractor.
5:05 P (Rodriquez) Neighbors ( Jaramillo) across the street heard shots. 3 loud pops.
5:06 P ( Neckles ) Neckles dispatched to the murder scene.
5:09 P (Neckles) Neckles arrives at murder scene.
5:?? P ( Neckles) Jean & Jason Kirk (EMTs) arrive shortly after police.
5:12 P (Avila rpt) CR calls Tiffany, didn’t reach her.
5:14 P (Avila rpt) CR calls Tiffany. Tells her he saw his dad dead. Tiffany arrived at NAPA just two minutes prior.
5:?? P ( Neckles) Shortly after CR calls her, Tiffany pulls up at the scene.
5:18 P (Jones) Jones is called by Chief Melnik to report to scene.
5:20 P ( Rodriquez) Rodriquez contacted by dispatch.
5:22 P (Jones) Jones is called by dispatch.
5:25 P (Jones) Jones arrived on scene.
5:25 P (Neckles) Hannah returns home.
5:30 P (Rodriquez) Scene is secured.
5:58 P (Jones) Jones & Rodriquez leave scene to write up search warrant.

11/06
10:30 Interview with CR begins. Approx.
11:27 A (Jones) Jones arrives at health center, picks up CR to take CR to SJPD. CR is not handcuffed.

A few DAYS after the murders Tiffany is interviewed and taped by SJPD.
SJPD never interviews Tanya. DPS does that and when asked about the divorce she leaves the interview.
DPS is supposed to have followed up with Tanya.

[muska]

If the appeal is approved and Judge Roca has to move forward before the competency hearing, do you think he'll agree to one charge being dropped? That would be a nightmare!

I don't understand what's holding up the competency hearing? Isn't the state's psychiatrist done yet? At this point, the hold up seems intentional.

[JusticeDawg©]

There is one plausible reason why the state might withhold their evidence: they may be waiting for the competency hearing. If the boy is found incompetent, then all their evidence would be useless. They could get around the legality of withholding the evidence by claiming they are still investigating. I think (though I am not sure) that they do not have to turn over evidence until they have completed reports.

They released a partial ballistics report.

[johnielee333]

Has anyone thought about starting a petition to try to help this boy in any way we can, like maybe help him get out & to keep them from trying him as an adult ? I believe he's innocent. This is crazy. This is all so terrible for him & his family. I dont know how to do petitions but if someone starts one, then i'll sign it & pass the link on to all my friends & the petition can be sent to some higher up people in the boys town or whatever. here's a link to a petition site if someone wants to start one.

http://www.thepetitionsite.com

My prayers go out to this little boy & his family.

[Hawk]

Here is the timeline I put together from the reports. I never found where they said the neighbors called 911, or any time for a second 911 callup.

Good job! Thanks, this makes it easier to put things into perspective!

[muska]

Here is the timeline I put together from the reports. I never found where they said the neighbors called 911, or any time for a second 911 call.

Approx. 3:00 CR gets off of school bus. I cannot find where this is stated as fact. They said approximately in the ADV Hearing Part A.

4:20 P (Brewer INT Neckles) Tiffany at Wilburs to get milk and doughnuts for work.
4:20 – 4:25 P (jones rpt) VR & TR leave work.
4:27 P (avila rpt) VR calls Tiffany on his way home.
4:45 P ( Brewer INT Neckles) Tiffany at Wilburs the second time for spaghetti stuff.
4:40 – 4:45 P (avila rpt) Tiffany’s Dad talks with VR. Time is approximate. Tiffany said 15 minutes after she talked to him.
4:52 P (avila & hogle rpts) Tanya talks to TR
4:55 P (Brewer INT Neckles) Tanya & TR call ends.
5:00 P ( Brewer INT Neckles) Approximate. Tiffany was talking to Jean & Jason Kirk (EMTs) before
going into the NAPA store.
5:00 P to 5:10 P (Rodriquez) Mr. Kilmer from SAW WORLD dropped off his employee and reported he saw 2 trucks. Turned out to be TR’s and the neighbor CR had run to.
5:00 P (Neckles) Neighbor to the North (Hannah) arrives at his home. Hears and sees nothing when he first arrives home nor when he leaves his home 5 minutes later.
5:03 P (Neckles) 911 call is placed by Ray Davis
5:05 P (Neckles) Hannah leaves home to pick up a tractor.
5:05 P (Rodriquez) Neighbors ( Jaramillo) across the street heard shots. 3 loud pops.
5:06 P ( Neckles ) Neckles dispatched to the murder scene.
5:09 P (Neckles) Neckles arrives at murder scene.
5:?? P ( Neckles) Jean & Jason Kirk (EMTs) arrive shortly after police.
5:12 P (Avila rpt) CR calls Tiffany, didn’t reach her.
5:14 P (Avila rpt) CR calls Tiffany. Tells her he saw his dad dead. Tiffany arrived at NAPA just two minutes prior.
5:?? P ( Neckles) Shortly after CR calls her, Tiffany pulls up at the scene.
5:18 P (Jones) Jones is called by Chief Melnik to report to scene.
5:20 P ( Rodriquez) Rodriquez contacted by dispatch.
5:22 P (Jones) Jones is called by dispatch.
5:25 P (Jones) Jones arrived on scene.
5:25 P (Neckles) Hannah returns home.
5:30 P (Rodriquez) Scene is secured.
5:58 P (Jones) Jones & Rodriquez leave scene to write up search warrant.

11/06
10:30 Interview with CR begins. Approx.
11:27 A (Jones) Jones arrives at health center, picks up CR to take CR to SJPD. CR is not handcuffed.

A few DAYS after the murders Tiffany is interviewed and taped by SJPD.
SJPD never interviews Tanya. DPS does that and when asked about the divorce she leaves the interview.
DPS is supposed to have followed up with Tanya.

The neighbor's time doesn't really work. Maybe they were just confused , but maybe they really didn't hear the shots. They could have heard something else.

This is a great timeline!! Very helpful!

[PensiveOne]

Good job! Thanks, this makes it easier to put thing into perspective!

You're Welcome. I am still reading all the posts, y'all have been busy. I haven't had much time in the last couple of days.

[Details]

Up until recently, we had a partial autopsy report - bits and pieces from quotes - but nothing about two types of bullets and not nearly as much precision in the location of wounds.

[Jacobtk]

They released a partial ballistics report.

I do not think they had to release that report though. I also find it a little odd that the report was called a ballistics report when the gun and the casings were not (apparently) tested.

[Hawk]

Up until recently, we had a partial autopsy report - bits and pieces from quotes - but nothing about two types of bullets and not nearly as much precision in the location of wounds.

Now if someone could translate the medical terms to a layman it'd be great. I'd really like to know about the arm shots to both victims, Mr. Romans in particular.

[PensiveOne]

The neighbor's time doesn't really work. Maybe they were just confused , but maybe they really didn't hear the shots. They could have heard something else.

This is a great timeline!! Very helpful!

Well, like most people they probably just approximated the time. They could have been a little off...how much that little is nobody knows.

[Details]

Now if someone could translate the medical terms to a layman it'd be great. I'd really like to know about the arm shots to both victims, Mr. Romans in particular.What in particular would you like to know? For some things I have a few connections that might be able to answer.

[Hawk]

What in particular would you like to know? For some things I have a few connections that might be able to answer.

If Mr. Romans' arm wound is conducive to holding his arm up in front of his face as in a natural defensive reflex. (Did he see his attacker before he was shot the first time)? This is of great importance, I think.

[PensiveOne]

a couple of questions re this timeline:
5:05 P (Neckles) Hannah leaves home to pick up a tractor.
5:05 P (Rodriquez) Neighbors ( Jaramillo) across the street heard shots. 3 loud pops.
Could the neighbor have heard Hannah's vehicle backfiring?? Did Hannah's vehicle backfire???

5:??P Jean & Jason Kirk arrive shortly after police.
5:12P Tiff arrives at NAPA

Could Jean & Jason Kirk have been called to the scene while talking to Tiff in parking lot? Wouldn't she have heard the address???

I haven't heard anything about a backfiring vehicle. There was a little more written somewhere about the Kirk's receiving the call and how they knew it was the Romero house. But I don't remember where I read it. It may have been buried somewhere in the hearing transcripts.

[PensiveOne]

and that little bit of time could make a huge difference in this case.

Yes, it could. I wonder if somebody reinterviewd them. Maybe Brewer or his team.

[Crispy]

If Mr. Romans' arm wound is conducive to holding his arm up in front of his face as in a natural defensive reflex. (Did he see his attacker before he was shot the first time)? This is of great importance, I think.

I don't think it would have been over his face because it entered his forearm, came out the other side and went into the space between his ribs and into his lower lung

[wolfi_2]

a question,
I can remember a picture with a yellow evidence card and a scale, can anyone post a link to this picture? I try to make up a "poser scene" to get a better overview.

[PensiveOne]

If Mr. Romans' arm wound is conducive to holding his arm up in front of his face as in a natural defensive reflex. (Did he see his attacker before he was shot the first time)? This is of great importance, I think.

You mean so that the bullet entered his ribs & lung. Could be or maybe he had it bent because he was carrying so much stuff?

[Hawk]

I don't think it would have been over his face because it entered his forearm, came out the other side and went into the space between his ribs and into his lower lung

Most everyone agrees then that this was apparently his first wound and caused the first blood spot on the driveway closest to the truck?

[Crispy]

could he have been sitting in his truck with the door open??

IDK, it had a right to left direction so the door would possibly get in the way. Maybe if he were sitting out on the seat far enough? I really don't know. I just remember some of the medical terms from anatomy class.

[Hawk]

You mean so that the bullet entered his ribs & lung. Could be or maybe he had it bent because he was carrying so much stuff?

So basically these reports still leave plenty of room for speculation as to limb and body positions?

[PensiveOne]

Most everyone agrees then that this was apparently his first wound and caused the first blood spot on the driveway closest to the truck?

I agree, but if he were shot closer to the truck, how long would it take a wound like that to start bleeding badly enough to drip blood on the driveway? Would it be immediately or a few seconds? I have never been shot so I have no idea.

[JusticeDawg©]

a couple of questions re this timeline:
5:05 P (Neckles) Hannah leaves home to pick up a tractor.
5:05 P (Rodriquez) Neighbors ( Jaramillo) across the street heard shots. 3 loud pops.
Could the neighbor have heard Hannah's vehicle backfiring?? Did Hannah's vehicle backfire???

5:??P Jean & Jason Kirk arrive shortly after police.
5:12P Tiff arrives at NAPA

Could Jean & Jason Kirk have been called to the scene while talking to Tiff in parking lot? Wouldn't she have heard the address???
She heard they had a call and went to NAPA. La de da.

[Hawk]

I agree, but if he were shot closer to the truck, how long would it take a wound like that to start bleeding badly enough to drip blood on the driveway? Would it be immediately or a few seconds? I have never been shot so I have no idea.

Maybe that's another question that can't be answered with authority. I'd call my doctor and ask him but the mug would charge me a $500 consultation fee.

[PensiveOne]

So basically these reports still leave plenty of room for speculation as to limb and body positions?

Yeah, I think they do. They do have the guy hired the firearms expert to do the reenactment or whatever they call it. I wonder if they will release that info.

[PensiveOne]

Maybe that's another question that can't be answered with authority. I'd call my doctor and ask him but the mug would charge me a $500 consultation fee.

You're funny hawk:lol::lol::lol:

[JusticeDawg©]

I don't think it would have been over his face because it entered his forearm, came out the other side and went into the space between his ribs and into his lower lung

It still depends on the angle of the shooter. I don't think it was a straight on shot.

[JusticeDawg©]

la de da? you mean she heard where they were going? those dispatch things are loud aren't they?

She KNEW where they were going. She had to get out of there and get another alibi.

[Hawk]

She KNEW where they were going. She had to get out of there and get another alibi.

Do you really think Mrs. Romero did these awful murders?

[PensiveOne]

She KNEW where they were going. She had to get out of there and get another alibi.

Yeah, there are too many coincidences in this case. I just wonder about her talking to the EMT's, that just seems too coincidental to me, but that's just my thinking.

[Details]

If Mr. Romans' arm wound is conducive to holding his arm up in front of his face as in a natural defensive reflex. (Did he see his attacker before he was shot the first time)? This is of great importance, I think.There, I've got nothing - it'd be more about jargon translation.

But Arm into lung - when your arm is by your side, your upper arm is by your lung. If you are smoking, hand up - your lower arm is in front of some lung. So there's a few options there. I'm thinking it just means he was perpendicular to the shooter, arm by his side, bullet went through arm, into ribs and lung.

[PensiveOne]

Do you really think Mrs. Romero did these awful murders?

Don't you think it is possible? I would suspect Mrs. Romans first, because of known motives, but Mrs. Romero surely has to be a suspect, too.

[Cherishlove]

Has anyone thought about starting a petition to try to help this boy in any way we can, like maybe help him get out & to keep them from trying him as an adult ? I believe he's innocent. This is crazy. This is all so terrible for him & his family. I dont know how to do petitions but if someone starts one, then i'll sign it & pass the link on to all my friends & the petition can be sent to some higher up people in the boys town or whatever. here's a link to a petition site if someone wants to start one.

http://www.thepetitionsite.com

My prayers go out to this little boy & his family.Not sure if it would do any good, but I would sign it. Anything to help out the little boy.

[JusticeDawg©]

Do you really think Mrs. Romero did these awful murders?

Yes. What makes you think she couldn't? Did you ever think that she didn't want to spank the boy but was made to? This woman had A LOT of issues. She has cancer, no children of her own, and a whole lot more......

[Details]

So basically these reports still leave plenty of room for speculation as to limb and body positions?No doubt a picture, with the exact position of the bullet holes would leave little to no room for speculation - just line the holes in the arm with the holes in the ribs - and there you go, that's the position. But for us, just reading - we can't be so sure.

[JusticeDawg©]

There, I've got nothing - it'd be more about jargon translation.

But Arm into lung - when your arm is by your side, your upper arm is by your lung. If you are smoking, hand up - your lower arm is in front of some lung. So there's a few options there. I'm thinking it just means he was perpendicular to the shooter, arm by his side, bullet went through arm, into ribs and lung.

That happened to Trace Atkins, and he lived. Wife shot him.

[Crispy]

There, I've got nothing - it'd be more about jargon translation.

But Arm into lung - when your arm is by your side, your upper arm is by your lung. If you are smoking, hand up - your lower arm is in front of some lung. So there's a few options there. I'm thinking it just means he was perpendicular to the shooter, arm by his side, bullet went through arm, into ribs and lung.

If his arm was just hanging by his side, his forearm would have been too low for it to go through and into the lung. Unless he had extremely short arms or it had an extreme upward angle

ETA: jmo

[JusticeDawg©]

Don't you think it is possible? I would suspect Mrs. Romans first, because of known motives, but Mrs. Romero surely has to be a suspect, too.

Mrs. Romans was 175 miles away. Maybe she contacted the girlfriend, and she freaked? Don't know yet. State is playing games.

[Hawk]

No doubt a picture, with the exact position of the bullet holes would leave little to no room for speculation - just line the holes in the arm with the holes in the ribs - and there you go, that's the position. But for us, just reading - we can't be so sure.

Well, just damn!
Been waiting two months for the autopsy report and we don't know anymore than we did with just Sgt. Guinn's statements.

[JusticeDawg©]

Well, just damn!
Been waiting two months for the autopsy report and we don't know anymore than we did with just Sgt. Guinn's statements.

Yes we know more. Can I take a nap first? :biggrin:

[Hawk]

No doubt a picture, with the exact position of the bullet holes would leave little to no room for speculation - just line the holes in the arm with the holes in the ribs - and there you go, that's the position. But for us, just reading - we can't be so sure.

Could the bullet have hit bone and traveled a ways before exiting the arm?

[muska]

Well, just damn!
Been waiting two months for the autopsy report and we don't know anymore than we did with just Sgt. Guinn's statements.

We know there were two different types of bullets.....that's, at least, interesting and maybe very important!

[PensiveOne]

Mrs. Romans was 175 miles away. Maybe she contacted the girlfriend, and she freaked? Don't know yet. State is playing games.

I am sure she had an alibi, but that doesn't rule out somebody doing it for her. It's not unheard of. You are probably right, though. Nothing would surprise me in this case.

[Hawk]

Yes we know more. Can I take a nap first? :biggrin:

By all means. Bullets and such I understand a little. This medical report might as well be in some other language. It's worse than legal terms.

[Crispy]

The autopsy report says it went in at 58 centimeters and came out at 56 so it didn't travel too far

[Details]

Do you really think Mrs. Romero did these awful murders?I know little enough about her as a person. But as a suspect, she's got a huge motive, and a motive that causes many murders - her husband was cheating, and worse, apparently proposing. She's got some very odd behaviors, the fax and such - she's a good suspect who should be looked into closely in any murder investigation. That happens for any spouse of a murder victim, and there's more cause than usual here.

As a person - many a murder of passion happens with someone that everyone says could never do such a thing. I don't know anything about that - but were I writing a book, a character, a wife, hardworking, raising kids, a good person, with a husband who is cheating on her - and he finally goes a step too far - he proposes! After all she's taken, it pushes her over the top, she won't let him wreck their family, and she does something crazy - gets a gun, does it herself, talks to her parents, family, friends, old high school boyfriend who still wants her, and they help her or do it for her - etc. We've all seen the madness that can happen with divorce or infidelity - a marriage is sacred, and when one side messes with it, when it ends, there are strong emotions. I don't think I'd have understood how much so until I was married.




Oops - I mixed the names - didn't I. OK, take this for Mrs. Romans. For the father's wife - equally Yes - recently married, that's a tough transition, her behavior is a bit abnormal (sorry - but just living at the house - really, really hard for me to grasp), she knew the house. Not as strong of a suspect as Tim's wife, but there's always possible reasons, and people are usually killed by those closest to them.

[muska]

I am sure she had an alibi, but that doesn't rule out somebody doing it for her. It's not unheard of. You are probably right, though. Nothing would surprise me in this case.

And Mrs. Romans' mother has the small white car that was photographed by St Johns police....it is possible someone borrowed it.

[Hawk]

The autopsy report says it went in at 58 centimeters and came out at 56 so it didn't travel too far

Good point.
This had to be the first shot though, right? The other two (chest shots) were too devastating for him to have stumbled far? (Shock or not).
Head wounds were all three done while he was on the ground?

[Crispy]

Good point.
This had to be the first shot though, right? The other two (chest shots) were too devastating for him to have stumbled far? (Shock or not).
Head wounds were all three done while he was on the ground?

Now that I don't know. The thing that bothers me about that is that every shot but one was a right to left direction. The shot to the left chest was left to right. I would think that would mean either the shooter or Tim was in a different position than all the other shots. Again, I'm not an expert and probably if somebody threw a bullet at me I'd cry and fall down!

[PensiveOne]

Good point.
This had to be the first shot though, right? The other two (chest shots) were too devastating for him to have stumbled far? (Shock or not).
Head wounds were all three done while he was on the ground?

Did you notice that the chest wounds were at a downward angle? Both of them. Makes me wonder if there wasn't one headshot first and he collapsed to his knees or somebody made him get on his knees.

[Hawk]

Wow. I've been catching up on my reading again and it's great to see that this case is being analysed and discussed so thoroughly. What a pity the 'police' in St. John's didn't do this to begin with. Why not the wife as a potential suspect? Why not a drug connection? 2 different kinds of bullets? 2 shooters people.

Makes more sense than an 8 year old going postal.

Putting the child aside, I vote for the crack head burglar. The fit is pretty easy. It isn't as fun or interesting to talk about, but makes the most sense to me.
Hitmen are definitely out because of the time, place, and weapon(s) used (IMO). The grandparents are definitely out for obvious reasons(IMO).
Just trying to narrow the field.

[Details]

Wow. I've been catching up on my reading again and it's great to see that this case is being analysed and discussed so thoroughly. What a pity the 'police' in St. John's didn't do this to begin with. Why not the wife as a potential suspect? Why not a drug connection? 2 different kinds of bullets? 2 shooters people.

Makes more sense than an 8 year old going postal.The police aspect is weird here. One of the wives they just happen upon, and take information she volunteers, rather than doing a formal interview right away. It seems like they were hardly doing anything there. Like they didn't have a clue what to do - interview the closest people first, with an eye towards eliminating or retaining them as suspects. It just doesn't make sense.

And the interviews were all at weird places - I keep wondering if there's some state law about interrogations they were trying to duck.

[Hawk]

Did you notice that the chest wounds were at a downward angle? Both of them. Makes me wonder if there wasn't one headshot first and he collapsed to his knees or somebody made him get on his knees.

No, because I can't understand the thing. But if it's true then Mr. Romans who was 5'9'' wasn't shot in the chest in a downward angle from a person 4' tall. That ones pretty self evident. Of course with a shooter slightly taller than TR...........

[muska]

As far as suspects go, it could still be someone who had broken into the house. The house was so messy, it would have been hard to tell if anyone had gone through some of their things before being surprised by VR. Maybe VR recognized the person and then the shooter/robber panicked.

[muska]

Putting the child aside, I vote for the crack head burglar. The fit is pretty easy. It isn't as fun or interesting to talk about, but makes the most sense to me.
Hitmen are definitely out because of the time, place, and weapon(s) used (IMO). The grandparents are definitely out for obvious reasons(IMO).
Just trying to narrow the field.

When I talk about a hitman, I don't mean someone who got paid a lot of money. I mean someone who was sent by someone else, more of an accomplice.....I think that's still a possibility.

[Hawk]

When I talk about a hitman, I don't mean someone who got paid a lot of money. I mean someone who was sent by someone else, more of an accomplice.....I think that's still a possibility.

What about the grandparents?

[PensiveOne]

No, because I can't understand the thing. But if it's true then Mr. Romans who was 5'9'' wasn't shot in the chest in a downward angle from a person 4' tall. That ones pretty self evident. Of course with a shooter slightly taller than TR...........
From Roman's autopsy:
3. On the right chest, 35 cm beneath the top of the head and 5 cm to the right of the anterior midline, there is an atypical gunshot wound of entrance with a 1.0 cm diameter. An in-egular abrasion is present measuring 0.2 cm in width. The wound course involves the skin, the right first rib anteriorly, the upper and middle lobes of the right lung, and the right 9th intercostal space laterally. From within the muscles of this area, a small caliber defonned projectile is recovered. The wound has coursed in a front to back, slight right to left, and downward direction. Examination of the entrance wound reveals no evidence of close range firing.
4. Ontheleftchest,37embeneaththetop oftheheadand4cm totheleft oftheanterior midline, there is a gunshot wound of entrance, 0.2 cm in diameter. A concentric ring of abrasion is present, 0.2 cm. The wound course involves the skin and underlying tissue, the left 2nd intercostal space anteriorly, the pericardial sac, the right auricle of the heart, the right 9th rib posteriorly, and the 9th lateral thoracic vertebra. Embedded within this area is a defonned small caliber proj ectile. The wound has coursed in a front to back, left to right, and downward direction. Examination ofthe entrance wound reveals no evidence of close range firing.

[muska]

What about the grandparents?

I sure hope not!!!!

[PensiveOne]

When I talk about a hitman, I don't mean someone who got paid a lot of money. I mean someone who was sent by someone else, more of an accomplice.....I think that's still a possibility.

I think it is possible, too:wink:

[Details]

It would help if we knew the order of the shots. I've read both autopsy reports but not having a medical background they tell me nothing besides where the men were hit. 2 different bullets. Which wounds were caused by which bullets.The autopsy does say which wounds by copper covered rounds. You might look for that, see if the wounds that look like the initial takedown shots were copper, or the wounds that look like the finishing shot were copper, or if there's no such pattern.

As far as shells dropped - we've got no way of knowing just from the bullet which went with which, so where each shot came from.

[PensiveOne]

What about the grandparents?

They wouldn't be on my list:bored:

[Details]

i'm sorry for her, but it's common LE practice to investigate the spouse as a potiental suspect.More than common, really, I think it's universal. You always check the spouse out first, unless the killer is just right there in your face (eyewitnesses or video or a message left clearly identify a different killer). Why didn't they do much of that here?

[muska]

Could he have been shot at from the balcony?

That sounds very possible to me......great thought!

[Details]

Here's my list, FWIW:

...
11.) I really like Eryn, but I would have to put her on this list, simply because of her position. She was a person with a motive to get rid of Vince. But I think she has been pretty open with the police and seems to be out in the open with nothing to hide. I would expect her to be far more secretive if she had something to hide. But there is also the possibility of someone feeling for her plight and did it to help her, even without her knowledge?....Eryn's father, friends, etc. - definitely a possible on the list. They know about her child, think he's being abused or some such - and decide to help...


But I still think Tim was the top target. 3 shots to the head - someone wanted him EXTREMELY dead. So my top people would be those with a motive to kill Tim.

[PensiveOne]

Could he have been shot at from the balcony?

It's possible, but all of the casings are on the porch, so I don't think so.

[PensiveOne]

Here's my list, FWIW:

1.) Tanya or a friend or family member-I know one of her daughters was supposedly NOT happy with Candy
2.) Candy or a friend or family member-or even the other girl who worked there or her "psycho" boyfriend
3.) Tiffany
4.) Drug related
5.) Bar fight related
6.) Race related
7.) Someone at work
8.) LeRoy-sorry folks-I know his grandson is in jail, but people kill for all kinds of reason and even if he really loves him, he could fear the death penalty more
9.) Tiffany's crackhead sister or friend or significant other
10.) Some other crackhead not thinking straight and looking for drugs that knew there were drugs in that house. Perhaps they even opened the door to Tim's truck looking for some inside the truck and left it open when they fled
11.) I really like Eryn, but I would have to put her on this list, simply because of her position. She was a person with a motive to get rid of Vince. But I think she has been pretty open with the police and seems to be out in the open with nothing to hide. I would expect her to be far more secretive if she had something to hide. But there is also the possibility of someone feeling for her plight and did it to help her, even without her knowledge?

At the very bottom of my list would be the boy-confession or no confession. This is an 8 year old boy with limited shooting skills, no dropped shells, two grown men (both authoritative figures,) cool calm demeanor, I could go on forever. I think the chances of this being the boy are about a million to one, IMO.

Good list mzmarymac:-) Leroy is probably not one I would put on there...but what do I know:thumbup:

[Hawk]

Here's my list, FWIW:

cool calm demeanor, I could go on forever. I think the chances of this being the boy are about a million to one, IMO.

Great list.
The shots weren't from the balcony because no casings were found there. Of course someone could have pushed them through the cracks of the flooring if the cracks are wide enough, but if the shots were left to right the balcony is to the right of where Mr. Romans was (the shots would have been right to left). Also he fell under the balcony so the head shots were done from downstairs.

If I had a vote I'd move your #10 to #1.

Just my opinion.

[PensiveOne]

Great list.
The shots weren't from the balcony because no casings were found there. Of course someone could have pushed them through the cracks of the flooring if the cracks are wide enough, but if the shots were left to right the balcony is to the right of where Mr. Romans was (the shots would have been right to left).

If I had a vote I'd move your #10 to #1.

Just my opinion.

I am good with the crackhead(s), too. I don't know if I would put them at #1, though:) I did the whole crackhead scenario the other day, but the threads changed and you left!

[PensiveOne]

interesting to me is that one wound is left to right and the other is right to left. why would that be???

Two shooters, of course:smile:

[Hawk]

I am good with the crackhead(s), too. I don't know if I would put them at #1, though:) I did the whole crackhead scenario the other day, but the threads changed and you left!

Who's #1 on your list?

[muska]

interesting to me is that one wound is left to right and the other is right to left. why would that be???

Two shooters and/or could he have turned to the opposite side in the second after the first shot.....trying, maybe, to turn away from the gunfire?

The downward angle is definitely interesting too........

[PensiveOne]

Who's #1 on your list?

Mrs. Romans, because she had the strongest motive.

[PensiveOne]

Two shooters and/or could he have turned to the opposite side in the second after the first shot.....trying, maybe, to turn away from the gunfire?

The downward angle is definitely interesting too........

He definately could have moved. I still think the closeness of the two shots meant they were fired in rapid succession. It depends on the order, too. I think the one through the heart would have made him fall forward before the other one could hit...so the one on the rifht side would have been first. I did read that people actually lived when being shot through the heart with a .22, but gosh that seems like a devastating shot to me.

[PensiveOne]

i don't think that would be likely since Guinn reported that both those shots formed one wound. He also took photos at the autopsy.

Guinn didn't say they formed a single wound? He talked about each shot separately, each shot formed a single wound. So there were two separate wounds about 3.5 inches apart. I believe.

[Jacobtk]

The police aspect is weird here. One of the wives they just happen upon, and take information she volunteers, rather than doing a formal interview right away. It seems like they were hardly doing anything there. Like they didn't have a clue what to do - interview the closest people first, with an eye towards eliminating or retaining them as suspects. It just doesn't make sense.

I think that is why Brewer and Woods are not buying Avila's and Neckel's claim that they were just questioning the boy instead of interrogating him. Both officers claim that they though a family member committed the act and the boy witnessed it, yet no one from SJPD tried to have the boy placed into protective care. It seems odd that police who emphatically believe a child is in danger would do nothing to actually protect him.

[Details]

Good list mzmarymac:-) Leroy is probably not one I would put on there...but what do I know:thumbup:You always want to check, if there's any indication. For all we know, he has his own motive separate from any of the other suspects. Until you look, you don't know.

[Details]

interesting to me is that one wound is left to right and the other is right to left. why would that be???Just barely. They're about 10 cm apart - and no doubt that's measuring the center of the bullet hole, so their edges are closer still than that (5cm from midline and 35cm down, 4cm from midline and 37cm down). It's two shots to the center of the chest, in very nearly the same spot.

[PensiveOne]

You always want to check, if there's any indication. For all we know, he has his own motive separate from any of the other suspects. Until you look, you don't know.

That's true, everybody would be a suspect until eliminated. But Leroy was the only one that tried to protect him. I do remember in the hearing though they did not want him on the visitation schedule.

[SaraSidle]

Guinn didn't say they formed a single wound? He talked about each shot separately, each shot formed a single wound. So there were two separate wounds about 3.5 inches apart. I believe.

Okay I am a poster for a while but my laptop broke for 2 months and now I am stuck. I am unable to open links at all so I am guessing. If I have it wrong please tell me otherwise ignore me. I have been guessing 2 different bullets and the females may be involved IMO

[GentleBreeze]

Great list.
The shots weren't from the balcony because no casings were found there. Of course someone could have pushed them through the cracks of the flooring if the cracks are wide enough, but if the shots were left to right the balcony is to the right of where Mr. Romans was (the shots would have been right to left). Also he fell under the balcony so the head shots were done from downstairs.

If I had a vote I'd move your #10 to #1.

Just my opinion.

I agree. The shots to Romans were on the lower floor of the home and fired from the outside patio area.

It is like trying to read tealeaves as to what happened exactly where and what Romans did or how he reacted when being hit. We do not know his body position neither time he received the chest shots but even then we don't know the chronological order of the shots. Possibly after being hit in the arm he may have been in a crouching lower position trying to shield himself. It is not a one size fits all situations and there are so many variables that are just unknown.

I would think the shooter was not stationary during all of the shootings to Romans but was ambulatory seeking the best advantage in order to fire again. The three shots to the head. It really didn't matter imo, the shooter could be anywhere he wanted to be because Tim Romans was in the throes of dire distress and already down. It was like picking off a sitting duck.

imoo

[PensiveOne]

Okay I am a poster for a while but my laptop broke for 2 months and now I am stuck. I am unable to open links at all so I am guessing. If I have it wrong please tell me otherwise ignore me. I have been guessing 2 different bullets and the females may be involved IMO

Hello, so you think both the females did it together? I think I saw somebody else post that. The only problem is supposedly the two wives didn't like each other, so I dunno. There is also a girlfriend of TR. She is another possibility. I don't know if it is possible for two women to get along well enough to commit a murder together. But hey, we are all guessing here, so Welcome:smile:

[Details]

For the head shots, he was likely not only down, but motionless. Two shots into his chest, one shot into his lung - I don't think he was doing much at all by then. Assuming that the head shots were last - which is the only thing that makes sense to me.

[Crispy]

I thought Eryn's father, the convicted sex offender, was dead?

Guess he's ruled out then

[GentleBreeze]

For the head shots, he was likely not only down, but motionless. Two shots into his chest, one shot into his lung - I don't think he was doing much at all by then. Assuming that the head shots were last - which is the only thing that makes sense to me.

Haven't people lived who have been shot in the lung? A .22 bullet is a very tiny projectile. It doesn't blow a big hole in the chest.

imoo

[PensiveOne]

Guess he's ruled out then

Well, I dunno Crispy...he could be a zombie and somebody is into witchcraft and commanded him to do it...what do you think?

[PensiveOne]

Well, I dunno Crispy...he could be zombie and somebody is into witchcraft and commanded him to do it...what do you think?

Oops, that would be voodoo wouldn't it! I don't know all the dark arts:)

[GentleBreeze]

Hello, so you think both the females did it together? I think I saw somebody else post that. The only problem is supposedly the two wives didn't like each other, so I dunno. There is also a girlfriend of TR. She is another possibility. I don't know if it is possible for two women to get along well enough to commit a murder together. But hey, we are all guessing here, so Welcome:smile:

I thought Tonya Romans said the Romeros were a nice family and she had been there for a visit and ate with them?

[PensiveOne]

I thought Tonya Romans said the Romeros were a nice family and she had been there for a visit and ate with them?
Yes, she did, but someone posted on another blog that she never liked Tiffany and had never trusted her. But you can't believe anything you read on these blogs. :w00t:

[GentleBreeze]

Yes, she did, but someone posted on another blog that she never liked Tiffany and had never trusted her. But you can't believe anything you read on these blogs. :w00t:

How true.:biggrin:

[Details]

Haven't people lived who have been shot in the lung? A .22 bullet is a very tiny projectile. It doesn't blow a big hole in the chest.

imooThe lung - sure. But two more shots into the chest, pretty close to dead center - nearly perfectly avoiding the breastbone - I don't know if that's very survivable - but I doubt anyone with those 3 shots in them is going to be moving. Easy to put a shot in the brain and end it. But instead the killer puts 3 shots to the head. The graze and two others. Why the overkill?

22 is a small projectile - that bounces around. That's not good for internal organs of any kind - lungs nor heart.

[GentleBreeze]

The lung - sure. But two more shots into the chest, pretty close to dead center - nearly perfectly avoiding the breastbone - I don't know if that's very survivable - but I doubt anyone with those 3 shots in them is going to be moving. Easy to put a shot in the brain and end it. But instead the killer puts 3 shots to the head. The graze and two others. Why the overkill?

22 is a small projectile - that bounces around. That's not good for internal organs of any kind - lungs nor heart.

I am sure it isn't but I wouldn't think it causes immediate death or incapacitation. I can go google but I would think people have survived shots to the chest especially if it were done by a .22 projectile.

We just can't say with any certainty that he could not have remained upright for the few seconds it took for him to be shot again or even if that brought him down or it may have brought him down to his knees. No matter what he made it to the patio. I do think the head shots to the brain were totally debilitating except the one that grazed his head.

Again, I don't know, some people don't die as quickly as other do and I guess as long as he was quivering and shaking, even if it was involuntary ,the shooter kept shooting until he didn't move anymore.

imoo

[Hawk]

Thanks for your answer...that actually makes me feel lots better...but if the gun were held over the railing, like the person was hiding behind the railing, could the casings have fallen over the top of the railing?

I think you know where I am going-but I am trying really hard to be able to say the boy could NOT have shot Tim because he would have been too short to shoot Tim and have the bullet go from top to bottom. The only way that could be is if he were standing on the railing, but if it is true that the casings would not have fallen onto the patio, then that really could rule him out completely.

:smile:

If ,in fact, the chest wounds are top to bottom I can't see how the boy can not be eliminated (in Mr. Romans shooting). Someone 4' tall can't possibly shoot someone 5'9'' (69") in the chest at a downward angle. A person 4' tall and has a weapon at eye level would put the barrel of the gun at about 3' 7" (43"). If I'm reading this right the chest wounds to Mr. Romans would be around 4' 5'' (53") from the ground at a level shot. A downward shot from a person 4' tall would place the entry wounds no higher than 43" (just above the navel area).
Of course if Mr. Romans knees buckled 10" it could happen but that doesn't seem likely considering the distance he crossed.

Just my opinion.

[PensiveOne]

If ,in fact, the chest wounds are top to bottom I can't see how the boy can not be eliminated (in Mr. Romans shooting). Someone 4' tall can't possibly shoot someone 5'9'' (69") in the chest at a downward angle. A person 4' tall and has a weapon at eye level would put the barrel of the gun at about 3' 7" (43"). If I'm reading this right the chest wounds to Mr. Romans would be around 4' 5'' (53") from the ground at a level shot. A downward shot from a person 4' tall would place the entry wounds no higher than 43" (just above the navel area).
Of course if Mr. Romans knees buckled 10" it could happen but that doesn't seem likely considering the distance he crossed.

Just my opinion.

Good opinion, Hawk:) Welcome to the light! At least there is a glimmer now!

[Details]

If ,in fact, the chest wounds are top to bottom I can't see how the boy can not be eliminated (in Mr. Romans shooting). Someone 4' tall can't possibly shoot someone 5'9'' (69") in the chest at a downward angle. A person 4' tall and has a weapon at eye level would put the barrel of the gun at about 3' 7" (43"). If I'm reading this right the chest wounds to Mr. Romans would be around 4' 5'' (53") from the ground at a level shot. A downward shot from a person 4' tall would place the entry wounds no higher than 43" (just above the navel area).
Of course if Mr. Romans knees buckled 10" it could happen but that doesn't seem likely considering the distance he crossed.

Just my opinion.It's difficult to find any way for that to work. Standing - obviously not - the boy's not going to find a stepstool. Laying on the ground - the angle is difficult to obtain, especially when we take a 4' high kid with corresponding arm length, and no-contact shots. So kneeling is the only way it's remotely possible - but kneeling after covering that distance, and staying there for two shots? Really hard to credit!

I tend to think the shooter shot him first out by the truck, persued him to the door, where he ordered him to stop, Tim did (you do what the guy with the gun says in hopes you might be able to survive this) - and was shot again, there. A second shooter upstairs would fit best the casings on the top of the stairs. That, or the shooter going over the body to check for any other witnesses in the house.

[GentleBreeze]

If ,in fact, the chest wounds are top to bottom I can't see how the boy can not be eliminated (in Mr. Romans shooting). Someone 4' tall can't possibly shoot someone 5'9'' (69") in the chest at a downward angle. A person 4' tall and has a weapon at eye level would put the barrel of the gun at about 3' 7" (43"). If I'm reading this right the chest wounds to Mr. Romans would be around 4' 5'' (53") from the ground at a level shot. A downward shot from a person 4' tall would place the entry wounds no higher than 43" (just above the navel area).
Of course if Mr. Romans knees buckled 10" it could happen but that doesn't seem likely considering the distance he crossed.

Just my opinion.

Yes, you are right. If that is how we knew it happened it would not fit, But we do not know Romans body position or how he reacted when being hit.

It seems likely that he was somehow able to maintain or get up again or stay upright somewhat and that is why he was able to make it to the porch.

imoo

[Hawk]

Yes, she did, but someone posted on another blog that she never liked Tiffany and had never trusted her. But you can't believe anything you read on these blogs. :w00t:

I suspect Mrs. Romans was well aware of her husbands promiscuous habits and really distrusted him around Mrs. Romero. Perhaps Mr. Romero felt the same.

[Crispy]

Well, I dunno Crispy...he could be a zombie and somebody is into witchcraft and commanded him to do it...what do you think?

:shrug: I'll go with it.

[GentleBreeze]

It's difficult to find any way for that to work. Standing - obviously not - the boy's not going to find a stepstool. Laying on the ground - the angle is difficult to obtain, especially when we take a 4' high kid with corresponding arm length, and no-contact shots. So kneeling is the only way it's remotely possible - but kneeling after covering that distance, and staying there for two shots? Really hard to credit!

I tend to think the shooter shot him first out by the truck, persued him to the door, where he ordered him to stop, Tim did (you do what the guy with the gun says in hopes you might be able to survive this) - and was shot again, there. A second shooter upstairs would fit best the casings on the top of the stairs. That, or the shooter going over the body to check for any other witnesses in the house.

I thought I read sometime ago that the boy is 4'6" but I cant remember where I read that now.

imoo

[Hawk]

The lung - sure. But two more shots into the chest, pretty close to dead center - nearly perfectly avoiding the breastbone - I don't know if that's very survivable - but I doubt anyone with those 3 shots in them is going to be moving. Easy to put a shot in the brain and end it. But instead the killer puts 3 shots to the head. The graze and two others. Why the overkill?

22 is a small projectile - that bounces around. That's not good for internal organs of any kind - lungs nor heart.

Someone was enjoying it!

[PensiveOne]

I suspect Mrs. Romans was well aware of her husbands promiscuous habits and really distrusted him around Mrs. Romero. Perhaps Mr. Romero felt the same.

Yes, the wife, they say is the last to know...but I think it is more like the last to admit it, first to suspect it. Maybe Mr. Romero did feel the same way.

[GentleBreeze]

I suspect Mrs. Romans was well aware of her husbands promiscuous habits and really distrusted him around Mrs. Romero. Perhaps Mr. Romero felt the same.

I think Mrs. Romans was like a lot of wives and didn't have a clue about his 170 mile away lover.

From her comments she seemed to like the Romero family.

imo

[PensiveOne]

I thought I read sometime ago that the boy is 4'6" but I cant remember where I read that now.

imoo

No, he is 4 foot even. Don't ask me where I saw it, but I did. I remember because I am 4' 11" and I thought to myself he is a little guy because my grandson, who is 9 is only about an inch shorter than me. My grandson is always the tallest in his class, BTW.

[PensiveOne]

:shrug: I'll go with it.

It would make it interesting wouldn't it...you are too funny:lol:

[GentleBreeze]

No, he is 4 foot even. Don't ask me where I saw it, but I did. I remember because I am 4' 11" and I thought to myself he is a little guy because my grandson, who is 9 is only about an inch shorter than me.

Really? I know I read somewhere that he is 4'6" and weighs 65 pounds. Now I wish I could remember where I read that.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

He could have even been on the ground on his side, rolling around. We just don't know

Right, we just don't know what this poor guy did or how he reacted.

imo

[PensiveOne]

Really? I know I read somewhere that he is 4'6" and weighs 65 pounds.

imoo

Could be another one of those mistakes, two different sizes in two different reports.:shrug: I am not gonna go look, my eyes are about to fall outta my head. Too much paperwork. Trust me:wink:

[Details]

I thought I read sometime ago that the boy is 4'6" but I cant remember where I read that now.

imooStill too short to have a downward angle if Tim was anything remotely close to standing. When you hold a gun, at the highest, it'll be in line with your shoulder, likely close to your own chest. To have a downwards angle, Tim's chest must be below the shooters chest - and for two shots, not just one.

[Hawk]

Yes, the wife, they say is the last to know...but I think it is more like the last to admit it, first to suspect it. Maybe Mr. Romero did feel the same way.

And Mr. Romans owed Mr. Romero rent money. Perhaps one or both of these issues was the cause of Mr. and Mrs. Romero's argument. I'm not suggesting anything was going on, it's just that married folks will argue over a sit-com on TV, or some other foolishness.

[GentleBreeze]

Could be another one of those mistakes, two different sizes in two different reports.:shrug: I am not gonna go look, my eyes are about to fall outta my head. Too much paperwork. Trust me:wink:


It sure could be. All this reading and some of it can be contradictory to others makes it quite confusing at times.


imoo