1/19 thru 1/20

[Crispy]

What are the odds that both of the wounds to the arms had a copper projectile when no other ones did? That's weird.

[GentleBreeze]

This Judge is 'slow-mo-joe'. He should have had the evaluations done in the first week. I think he likes the attention.

What attention? All he sees is the attorneys. He never speaks to the media.

He seems to be a fair minded Judge to me. I sure don't see him as some Showhorse......wanting to be seen.

imoo

[Jacobtk]

what is "other circumstances" in the circustances box?

I think that may be reference to the reason for his his arrest. I am not sure though.

[Hawk]

I don't know how else you would read that Hawk. ...downward direction.

I don't know how to read it. But I'll take your word for it. Could the bullets have bounced of bone and gone downward?

[GentleBreeze]

So you think the boy shot him in the head, reloaded, shot him again in the head, reloaded, then finished him off with one last head shot?


I do. I think the head shots were when Tim had already collapsed on the patio porch. One shot to the head just grazed his head then the other two to the head hit their mark. By then he wasn't quivering and shaking anymore imo.

imoo

[Crispy]

I don't know how to read it. But I'll take your word for it. Could the bullets have bounced of bone and gone downward?

It will say in the report if it hit bone. The chest shots (numbered 3 and 4)for Romans did strike rib.

[Details]

Oh if there was exonerating evidence Brewer or Wood would be sitting in the Az. Governor's office and we would have heard about it imo.

imooAnd the Governor would be asking, "Have you presented this to the judge?" There's an order to these things. Every defense attorney claims to have exonerating evidence - that's what trials are for. And they, and judges, get it wrong often enough, and that's what the Innocence project is for - because yes indeed, you can be convicted while there is exonerating evidence - there are many people out in the world who can tell you so. You can be prosecuted for quite a long time with exonerating evidence too - just ask two little boys who were prosecuted for raping another child, even after evidence of semen (which they don't produce) was found.

[Hawk]

What attention? All he sees is the attorneys. He never speaks to the media.

He seems to be a fair minded Judge to me. I sure don't see him as some Showhorse......wanting to be seen.

imoo

Judge Roca is a Pro-Tem judge. Doesn't he has a law practice? He's on a first name basis with everyone in court. Local attention.
This case should have been resolved long ago. Apache county isn't LA county or Cook county. There are very few major cases and even fewer trials. And with the latitude the judge has in this juvenile case there's no excuse for this long delay.
In my opinion they look pretty silly to the rest of the American legal community, and certainly to the general public.

[Crispy]

We haven't got any court transcripts in a while. Wonder if they aren't going to put them up anymore.

[dgfred]

I do. I think the head shots were when Tim had already collapsed on the patio porch. One shot to the head just grazed his head then the other two to the head hit their mark. By then he wasn't quivering and shaking anymore imo.

imoo

Wow... the kid is a regular 'ice man'... very efficient.

[Hawk]

Romans arm shot # 5 was the shot that was dripping blood as he walked towards the house. It wasn't a fatal shot.

He then took two shots to the chest (sorry but they had to be in quick succession)
Chest Shots
Shot #3 didn't hit anything major. But he was going down
Shot #4 killed him.

Shot # 1 and #2 and #6 were post mortum.

Shooter was located to the left of him and above him at all times.

That is what I see.


moo

I agree, except for the rapid chest shots (if he were standing). And the shooters location.
Anyway, will we know if the firing pin marks on the casings match the Chipmunk firing pin at the hearing on Monday? This ain't high-tech stuff. All it takes is a microscope camera, or just a microscope and an eyeball.

[Jacobtk]

This case should have been resolved long ago. Apache county isn't LA county or Cook county. There are very few major cases and even fewer trials. And with the latitude the judge has in this juvenile case there's no excuse for this long delay.
In my opinion they look pretty silly to the rest of the American legal community, and certainly to the general public.

With national attention like this, what police chief, prosecutor or judge would pass on an opportunity like this. This tends to happen whenever there is a high profile case. The process moves at a nearly dead halt.

As much as I would like to give Roca the benefit of doubt, so far his handling of this and his treatment of the boy has been rather embarrassing. The prosecutors are beyond redemption in my opinion and I would not trust a single case any of them brought before a judge or jury.

[Hawk]

Right was location. :biggrin:

Yes, they better have those tests done. They should have had them already.

(Do you mean to Mr. Romans right or from the right facing him?)

But do you think they will present that info at yet another status conference?

[Crispy]

Right was location. :biggrin:

Yes, they better have those tests done. They should have had them already.

So, it was Tim's position that changed for the left to right shot, right? LOL Maybe I need to purchase one of those dummies to recreate. LOL

[GentleBreeze]

(Do you mean to Mr. Romans right or from the right facing him?)

But do you think they will present that info at yet another status conference?

I think they may have already done it. In one of the supplemental discovery motions the DPR turned over about 20 pages with diagrams, iirc.

imoo

[Hawk]

So, it was Tim's position that changed for the left to right shot, right? LOL Maybe I need to purchase one of those dummies to recreate. LOL

I think Mr. Carylon will be available soon.

[Hawk]

I think they may have already done it. In one of the supplemental discovery motions the DPR turned over about 20 pages with diagrams, iirc.

imoo

So this case should be resolved pretty soon?

[Details]

From what I've heard here, it should be quite simple to know at the least - was the Chipmunk a possible gun, or did it have to be a different brand? IIRC, it's fairly distinctive in the general pattern it makes - number of sides or some such - so that info should have been available long ago.

[GentleBreeze]

So this case should be resolved pretty soon?

I think they are getting closer to getting all the forensic evidence back. They still have to reveal if they have gotten the results of the casings that match or dont match, being fired from the supposed murder weapon and maybe some more odds and ends like fingerprints found on the casings and gun.

The motion said DPR turned over diagrams and that was recorded on January 6th.

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/STATES%208TH%20SUPPLEMENTAL%20DISCLOSURE.pdf

[Hawk]

Romans walking, shooter was to his right side and up.

I think the DA put things on hold when Judge Roca did.

The defense asked to drop the "hold" so the appeal would go quicker. You tell me what the defense knows. :wink:

Okay to Mr. Romans right. I agree. But by above do you mean on the balcony of that the shooter is taller than 4'?

I don't have any idea what the defence has. I don't know how the process works. I hope Mr. Brewer has an arsenal of stuff and unloads full force.

[GentleBreeze]

Romans could had never stayed standing for the chest shots for a reload of the chipmunk gun. Had to be rapid fire or two shooters.


That is not consistent with the neighbors statement who said they heard a "pop" and then a delay and another "pop" and then a delay and another "pop" and then a delay.


ETA:
I don't agree. Military men have been hit with a hail of bullets and still remained upright and advancing until they collapsed and they have been hit with a much more powerful weapon than a .22.

imoo

[Hawk]

I think they are getting closer to getting all the forensic evidence back. They still have to reveal if they have gotten the results of the casings that match or dont match, being fired from the supposed murder weapon and maybe some more odds and ends like fingerprints found on the casings and gun.

The motion said DPR turned over diagrams and that was recorded on January 6th.

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/STATES%208TH%20SUPPLEMENTAL%20DISCLOSURE.pdf

If there isn't a match then there is no case against the kid, right?
"If the gun don't fit you must acquit".

[Details]

Romans could had never stayed standing for the chest shots for a reload of the chipmunk gun. Had to be rapid fire or two shooters.

mooI agree - but I think the simple pure fact of if the Chipmunk was or was not a possible gun might end this far more quickly than something where the prosecution might hope that a motion study expert will find a way Tim was kneeling for two shots or the boy was on a chair. Saying no to the Chipmunk by pure simple ballistics, I think would be the fastest end to this farce.

[Details]

That is not consistent with the neighbors statement who said they heard a "pop" and then a delay and another "pop" and then a delay and another "pop" and then a delay.Why not? We don't know if they heard the chest shots, or later shots when the killer/s were taking their time.

Just because a gun can be fired fast, doesn't mean it can't be fired slow too. But a slow gun cannot be fired fast.

[Hawk]

That is not consistent with the neighbors statement who said they heard a "pop" and then a delay and another "pop" and then a delay and another "pop" and then a delay.

That's right and it was only 3. If the shooter had been on the balcony they would have perhaps the shots more distinctly and more than 3.

[GentleBreeze]

If there isn't a match then there is no case against the kid, right?
"If the gun don't fit you must acquit".

Sure, but I see no evidence as of yet that this wasn't the murder weapon.

[Hawk]

Is there an uphill grade to that porch?
The shooter was definitely taller than 4 ft.

No, not the balcony.

I'm with you. On Mr. Romans anyway. And the last two shots.
From looking at the photos, which of course can de deceptive, the driveway and porch look pretty flat.

[Hawk]

I didn't do Romero yet. :wink:

Well somebody did.

[GentleBreeze]

That's right and it was only 3. If the shooter had been on the balcony they would have perhaps the shots more distinctly and more than 3.

Yes, the more out in the open the better the gunfire could be heard.

If it had been done from the balcony imo it would have been heard much easier, all shots.

I am still not sure if the first shot to Romans may have been fired from inside the home entryway and the shooter ejected the casing right at the threshold, reloaded and stepped out behind the ivy bushes.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

Why not? We don't know if they heard the chest shots, or later shots when the killer/s were taking their time.

Just because a gun can be fired fast, doesn't mean it can't be fired slow too. But a slow gun cannot be fired fast.


Why would a killer fire slow if he had a weapon that could fire rapidly?:confused:

imoo

[Hawk]

Why would a killer fire slow if he had a weapon that could fire rapidly?:confused:

imoo

I wouldn't! I'd want to get the h... outta there ASAP!

[GentleBreeze]

Exactly! People don't stand still and upright when they're shot...Unless the victim is Al Pacino in ScarFace:tongueside:


:thumbup: Now that is true.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

I wouldn't! I'd want to get the h... outta there ASAP!

Yep, I would let it rip and be gone as quick as lightning.:loveeyes:

imoo

[Hawk]

Excuse me.....you are not doing a "job" here. No one else is doing a "job" here either. This is a message board and it's sole purpose is to discuss suspects and motives. We are doing it with scant information.

The DA as well as the police force of Apache County HAVE ALL the information, we don't!

Surely you aren't saying you trust St. Johns PD and the County Attorneys office? They're the incompetent inexperienced crew that turned this case into the fiasco it has become. I'm not sure they have much of anything. And what they do have came from the county sheriff's office and the state police.

[Details]

Why would a killer fire slow if he had a weapon that could fire rapidly?:confused:

imooBecause their victim is down and still, and they're aiming and doing the final kill shots. We're not talking about long delays, just a little pause to line up so you don't miss.

From the description and locations - might well have been Tim's 3 head shots - he was down, and it's near the door, easier to hear. But it could have been the first Tim shot by the driveway, the second at the porch (takes a little more time to aim on a moving target), and the first head shot or some such.

[Details]

Did you miss where I said it was IMPOSSIBLE for us to reconstruct what happened? I thought I was pretty clear :crying:I'd say it's impossible for anyone to reconstruct precisely what happened - there won't be enough info.

But

There are things that any of us can figure out did not happen. Shooting from the balcony - evidence rules that out pretty well, due to the location of the casings. And we know two chest shots close to each other, angled downwards happened, and that means we can rule out any scenario where the shooter's chest is lower than the victim's chest. You can't reconstruct precisely what happened - but some scenarios can be excluded.

[Hawk]

Seems the media is interested in Tiffany.


Friends check PM's, If I forgot one of you, let me know.


It's about time they got interested in somebody. Good news.

[dgfred]

Did you miss where I said it was IMPOSSIBLE for us to reconstruct what happened? I thought I was pretty clear :crying:

Yep, but you have to be one hard core shooter to fire headshots into your dad... because he was suffering.
So the opinion would be he had seen animals shot in the head to end their suffering? So he decided to do that too in this situation with humans? Interesting indeed.

[Hawk]

I'd say it's impossible for anyone to reconstruct precisely what happened - there won't be enough info.

But

There are things that any of us can figure out did not happen. Shooting from the balcony - evidence rules that out pretty well, due to the location of the casings. And we know two chest shots close to each other, angled downwards happened, and that means we can rule out any scenario where the shooter's chest is lower than the victim's chest. You can't reconstruct precisely what happened - but some scenarios can be excluded.

Hear! Hear! I don't think there will be a consensus from the 'experts' either. How could there be. They go to the highest bidder. Which ain't much when a poor kid vs a poor county.

[Hawk]

couldn't get a good shot at the target???

Maybe so. But at that close range with a rifle........

[GentleBreeze]

couldn't get a good shot at the target???

Why? The target was out in the open advancing toward the home where they were?

Doesn't take expertise or time to aim and fire.

imoo

[muska]

I agree, except for the rapid chest shots (if he were standing). And the shooters location.
Anyway, will we know if the firing pin marks on the casings match the Chipmunk firing pin at the hearing on Monday? This ain't high-tech stuff. All it takes is a microscope camera, or just a microscope and an eyeball.

I thought the hearing was delayed until the 29th because of Woods' vacation.

[muska]

Romans walking, shooter was to his right side and up.

I think the DA put things on hold when Judge Roca did.

The defense asked to drop the "hold" so the appeal would go quicker. You tell me what the defense knows. :wink:

Do you think the appeal will be granted or denied?

[Hawk]

The point being they have far more information than we do.

Yes. The mental evaluations. The judge should do his job and let this boy go.

[Hawk]

I thought the hearing was delayed until the 29th because of Woods' vacation.

Sorry, the 29th then. A few extra days to drag their feet.

[GentleBreeze]

he lives there, of course he was at the scene. We have no evidence of the amount of time he waas there. he also would not have the time 4:55-5:03 to fire 10 shots into 2 men in 2 different locations (inside and outside the house), empty, reload, lock, aim and fire each and every time and run across the street, talk to the teen who then calls his father, who then goes to the boys house sees Tim and then calls 911.

I think Vinnie was already killed by 4:55. He went in the home when Tim first was talking to Tanya at 4:52.

So he had 5 minutes to shoot Tim. That is way more time than needed. It only takes seconds to eject the spent casing, reload and fire this weapon even if he did it slow. After killing Tim I think he stepped back inside to see if his dad was still a little bit alive and found that he was and shot him put the gun on the cage and then walked out to go to the neighbors ASAP.

That is all the time he had imo. Just time to get the heck out of there right after they both were dead.

imoo

[Hawk]

I think Vinnie was already killed by 4:55. He went in the home when Tim first was talking to Tanya at 4:52.

So he had 5 minutes to shoot Tim. That is way more time than needed. It only takes seconds to eject the spent casing, reload and fire this weapon even if he did it slow. After killing Tim I think he stepped back inside to see if his dad was still a little bit alive and found that he was and shot him put the gun on the cage and then walked out to go to the neighbors ASAP.

That is all the time he had imo. Just time to get the heck out of there right after they both were dead.

imoo

I think Vinnie was shot twice and down on the steps by 4:55pm also. Mr. Romans murder probably took a minute and a half or so. An excruciating amount of time for a normal shooter to make six shots. And a nightmare of pain for the victim.

[Hawk]

yea, he nonchalauntly walks past Tim and then goes and gets his gun, loads, aims and shots his dad 4 times, waits until Tim hangs up the cell phone then spends 5 minutes shooting Tim, running inside, up the stairs, checking his dad, shoots him again, then going across the street , explaining to the teenager what happened, teenager gets his cell, calls his dad, dad then goes over to the boys house, sees Tim, then calls 911
No body could do all that. No a soul on this earth could unless maybe a seasoned terrorist or military person with sure nuff training.


They wouldn't have used a Chipmunk .22.

[muska]

Maybe so. But at that close range with a rifle........

You've been saying all along that you thought someone was just enjoying it......maybe that fits for some adult shooter or shooters.......maybe they just took their time

[dgfred]

I think Vinnie was already killed by 4:55. He went in the home when Tim first was talking to Tanya at 4:52.

So he had 5 minutes to shoot Tim. That is way more time than needed. It only takes seconds to eject the spent casing, reload and fire this weapon even if he did it slow. After killing Tim I think he stepped back inside to see if his dad was still a little bit alive and found that he was and shot him put the gun on the cage and then walked out to go to the neighbors ASAP.

That is all the time he had imo. Just time to get the heck out of there right after they both were dead.

imoo

I'm sorry I just don't see it. Maybe you are right, but for some reason I can not picture a 8yr old kid- firing, reloading, firing, reloading up to 10 times, killing two adult men... and did only 1 shot miss? Very efficient shooting and very composed too.
It is still very interesting to see the other side of the same thing.

[muska]

Denied. They will let Roca do what he is doing.

moo

It just seems like it's only fair to have the competency testing done first! What is taking so long?

[Hawk]

You've been saying all along that you thought someone was just enjoying it......maybe that fits for some adult shooter or shooters.......maybe they just took their time


Absolutely. It was just too merciless. Too slow. Too many shots. The shooter was either enjoying himself, or was afraid the men would jump up and get him.

I still think the Chipmunk is the murder weapon because of the casings locations. But I'm not all that convinced that the boy pulled the trigger.
If they finally release the gun reports this week we can jump about a mile ahead on this discussion board.

[dgfred]

Nope, the boy was already in the house. after shooting and incapitating dad he calls out for Tim. Tim gets off the phone to see what the boy wants...and is shot.


In that scenario the shot at Tim has to be a good one, since Tim will see the rifle.

[GentleBreeze]

yea, he nonchalauntly walks past Tim and then goes and gets his gun, loads, aims and shots his dad 4 times, waits until Tim hangs up the cell phone then spends 5 minutes shooting Tim, running inside, up the stairs, checking his dad, shoots him again, then going across the street , explaining to the teenager what happened, teenager gets his cell, calls his dad, dad then goes over to the boys house, sees Tim, then calls 911
No body could do all that. No a soul on this earth could unless maybe a seasoned terrorist or military person with sure nuff training.

I so respect your opinion, iam but this wasn't some expert shooter at all. One doesn't need any expertise to shoot at a large target from just feet away.

I don't think he was nonchalant about anything.

This guns is made to be easy to shoot that is why it is a youth model rifle. Even the boy said it was easy to shoot and it is.

All of this took such a short time. It was over within minutes. These men didn't have a chance. They were totally caught off guard and no way to protect themselves. Anyone could have brought them down even an 8 year old.

The neighbor's house was right in back of them. I noticed on the map that someone linked just how close these properties butt up with each other. He was there in a flash.

imoo

[Hawk]

DA's "expert" wanted Defenses (Dr Cady's) report.

How odd is that?

Isn't that akin to the Steelers asking the NFL for the Cardinals playbook?

[GentleBreeze]

In that scenario the shot at Tim has to be a good one, since Tim will see the rifle.

We don't know if Tim ever saw the rifle. He could have had the rifle behind the ivy bushes and using it as a blind. Tim may have known at some point he was being fired upon by someone up at the house but he may have never figured out exactly where the gunfire was coming from until it was too late.

imoo

[Hawk]

If it's the boys gun

we will be able to rule out every single person that knew the victims except the boy!

Then we'll be back to the crack-head thief.
But if it isn't the Chipmunk the boy goes free.
If it turns out 2 guns were used prosecution starts over.
Of course when the judge finally admits that the boy is incompetent and can't be rehabilitated in 245 days none of it will matter anyway.

[Hawk]

We don't know if Tim ever saw the rifle. He could have had the rifle behind the ivy bushes and using it as a blind. Tim may have known at some point he was being fired upon by someone up at the house but he may have never figured out exactly where the gunfire was coming from until it was too late.

imoo

I think it was too late after the first shot. It had to hurt like h... and stun him.

[GentleBreeze]

at 4:55 Tim hangs up the phone (start the stop watch now). the boy sees Tim hang up the phone, then shoots, emptys, reloads, locks, aims, fires, emptys, reloads, locks, aims, fires, determines if he's shot him, emptys, reloads, locks, aims, fires, determines if he needs to shoot again. emptys, reloads, locks, aims, fires, determines if he needs to shoot again. determines he may need just one more shot, emptys, reloads, locks, aims, fires. Then goes inside sets the gun on the dog cage, then goes across the street, rings doorbell, waits for teen to come to the door, (i have teens, wanna guess how long it takes a teen to answer the door) explain dad is dead, shot, teen gets teen's cell phone, no telling where it is, then calls dad, dad has to go to boys house after teen explains to him what the boy just told him, dad walks up and sees Tim on the ground, then calls 911. Stop the stop watch, how long did all that take???? Took me several minutes just to type it out. And I'm a pretty fast typist.

Sit there and look at your watch. Do nothing else but look at the time as it passes by. IMO he had from 4:52 until 5:00 to complete these crimes. That is a total of 8 minutes. That is a very very long time. Much more than enough to fire an easy kid's gun 10 times and then have enough time to leave and run to the neighbors right in back of where he lives.

imoo

[Hawk]

No

He asked for the results of the WISC, it's a standard intelligence test for children. It can't be administered twice in such a short time frame and the second be considered valid.

Well of course not. It must take several PhDs to determine an eight year old is incompetent to stand trial for two murders. It's really silly. And a waste of time and money.

[GentleBreeze]

The first shot wasn't a good enough one as Tim made it to the door. The shooter could have been hiding in a bush or something.

Right, and if he is 4' tall then he wouldn't be seen.

Even the military uses foliage to camouflage their presence. I am sure the boy was taught to use the environment to his advantage when he hunted small game.

imoo

[muska]

I so respect your opinion, iam but this wasn't some expert shooter at all. One doesn't need any expertise to shoot at a large target from just feet away.

I don't think he was nonchalant about anything.

This guns is made to be easy to shoot that is why it is a youth model rifle. Even the boy said it was easy to shoot and it is.

All of this took such a short time. It was over within minutes. These men didn't have a chance. They were totally caught off guard and no way to protect themselves. Anyone could have brought them down even an 8 year old.

The neighbor's house was right in back of them. I noticed on the map that someone linked just how close these properties butt up with each other. He was there in a flash.

imoo

You'd think the neighbor's house must be at least a couple minutes away because Mr. Davis drove over with the boys. Why not just run over there if right next door?

[Hawk]

I think it would matter to the family of the victims and to the boy as well. If they never have a trial, the case will be closed, no one will look for the real killers in this and the boy has suffered and had his name drug through the mud and no way to clear his name.
It does matter.

You are certainly correct.

[GentleBreeze]

gotta go to bed now, got a interview in the morning and a test in the afternoon. catch yall tomorrow zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Good night, Iam.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

You'd think the neighbor's house must be at least a couple minutes away because Mr. Davis drove over with the boys. Why not just run over there if right next door?

I think he just pulled up in his truck and picked the boys up.

If it is the house right back of them it wouldnt even take two minutes to get there.

imoo

[Hawk]

I said the crack-head thief was worth developing

Thanks. I hope the case comes to that. But if the boy is found innocent or incompetent the case may fade away from news coverage, don't you think?

[Jacobtk]

It may appear that way to you............ But you are not privy to what he knows.:wink:

What he knows is immaterial as to whether he has potentially violated the boy's right to due process and a fair trial as a result of stalling the proceedings to allow the state to gather all the evidence to present their case.

[PensiveOne]

Seems the media is interested in Tiffany.


Friends check PM's, If I forgot one of you, let me know.

Can you send it to me, too?

[dgfred]

Right, and if he is 4' tall then he wouldn't be seen.

Even the military uses foliage to camouflage their presence. I am sure the boy was taught to use the environment to his advantage when he hunted small game.

imoo

So the first shot was good enough to stun him and keep him from running or dodging further shots, but the kid was hiding, reloading (without losing any spare bullets) and firing again, then repeating the process??? Then walking over to friends house. Wow, cool and calculating this shooter.
Dang... if anyone in the world ever needs a hit man...

[GentleBreeze]

What he knows is immaterial as to whether he has potentially violated the boy's right to due process and a fair trial as a result of stalling the proceedings to allow the state to gather all the evidence to present their case.

How is JR stalling the state's evidence? This case is at a standstill anyway due to the competency issue.

I think the state's evidence is coming right along. Maybe a straggler or two but I think most of it is back.

JR will address that again in the next hearing. He commented himself about knowing how long it takes to get forensic evidence back.

imoo

[Hawk]

Wow! We got it goin' on tonight!

[muska]

Thanks. I hope the case comes to that. But if the boy is found innocent or incompetent the case may fade away from news coverage, don't you think?

So far, it hasn't gotten much coverage...at least outside Arizona. If the boy is released, it will be good to fade away this time. Sadly, cases fade away all the time even when that's not such a good thing.

[dgfred]

Wow! We got it goin' on tonight!

I enjoy opposing views when presented in a civil manner :thumbup: .

[Hawk]

I think it fell off the national news long ago anyway. Without a steady stream of info or interest cases tend to fall off the map.

Yeah, I think your right. I guess the AZ news will carry it if it comes to exonerating the boy, but little or nothing from the national press.

[Hawk]

I enjoy opposing views when presented in a civil manner :thumbup: .

This ain't a civil case damn it, it's a criminal case!

Just kidding. I agree with you 100 percent.

[GentleBreeze]

So the first shot was good enough to stun him and keep him from running or dodging further shots, but the kid was hiding, reloading (without losing any spare bullets) and firing again, then repeating the process??? Then walking over to friends house. Wow, cool and calculating this shooter.
Dang... if anyone in the world ever needs a hit man...

A hitman would never take 10 shots to kill two unarmed people.

He also wouldn't use a youth model bolt action rifle either.

imoo

[Jacobtk]

If it's the boys gun we will be able to rule out every single person that knew the victims except the boy!

His gun being the murder weapon does not mean that he fired it. Someone could have used his gun and simply left it at the scene. The only thing that will place the boy at the scene is if his prints are on the casings. Otherwise, there is room for reasonable doubt. Remember, the boy is not the only person who knew where guns were located in the home.

[muska]

OMG of course!

Anyone know who CR says visits his mom when he is not home? A friend of Tiffany. It is bleeped out, but can anyone catch it??

Nichole - CR said she is Mrs. Allen's daughter.

[dgfred]

OMG of course!

Anyone know who CR says visits his mom when he is not home? A friend of Tiffany. It is bleeped out, but can anyone catch it??

I remember it being mentioned earlier, but I can't remember at the moment. Didn't he say something in the interogation.

[muska]

CR said that Nichole comes over sometimes when no one is home and that she is younger than Tiffany but taller....third grade description, all right!

From the transcript

[Jacobtk]

How is JR stalling the state's evidence? This case is at a standstill anyway due to the competency issue.

In December, Carlyon complained about the 45-day time limit. He stated that the state's evidence reports would not be complete before the limit and so he would have to drop and then refile the charges (most likely in order to keep the boy imprisoned). Roca decided to stay the proceedings until the state's evidence would be available. In other words, he is stalling for the state.

[Hawk]

OMG of course!

Anyone know who CR says visits his mom when he is not home? A friend of Tiffany. It is bleeped out, but can anyone catch it??

Nicole Allen

Dang! I got beat again.

[dgfred]

A hitman would never take 10 shots to kill two unarmed people.

He also wouldn't use a youth model bolt action rifle either.

imoo

Seemed pretty good shooting to me- took his time, knocked down two grown men, didn't waste ammo, finished both off with headshots. Not too shabby.

[muska]

His gun being the murder weapon does not mean that he fired it. Someone could have used his gun and simply left it at the scene. The only thing that will place the boy at the scene is if his prints are on the casings. Otherwise, there is room for reasonable doubt. Remember, the boy is not the only person who knew where guns were located in the home.

Why do the casings necessarily mean anything? He may have done something with them for his father or handled them on a hunting outing.

[Hawk]

CR said that Nichole comes over sometimes when no one is home and that she is younger than Tiffany but taller....third grade description, all right!

From the transcript

The transcript sures beats listening and watching those awful DVDs, doesn't it?
And you don't need a tissue.

[dgfred]

We don't know if Tim ran, staggered, skipped or hopped. All we know is he made it as far as the door. Twenty feet isn't far. The kid could have dropped one and picked it up. Maybe he dropped 3 and picked them up, and maybe he didn't drop any.

No one said he walked or strolled. It was said the kid had more than enough time to do the deed and make it to the neighbors, probably running.


Maybe if the kid did it... he should have waited until his dad was alone.
Why pick this day? Why kill Tim anyway?

You mean a married guy proposes to someone else and the next day he is found dead doesn't raise any eyebrows?
Known to be drug dealers, bar fights, all these seem feasible to me... even more so than a 8 yr old took out two men without any witnesses.

[GentleBreeze]

Seemed pretty good shooting to me- took his time, knocked down two grown men, didn't waste ammo, finished both off with headshots. Not too shabby.

Yes, it was an easy task. Nothing hard about picking off two unsuspecting men, like they were sitting ducks. No warning......no weapon in their hands to defend themselves.

imoo

[muska]

In December, Carlyon complained about the 45-day time limit. He stated that the state's evidence reports would not be complete before the limit and so he would have to drop and then refile the charges (most likely in order to keep the boy imprisoned). Roca decided to stay the proceedings until the state's evidence would be available. In other words, he is stalling for the state.

I have to admit I'm worried about this possibility.

[Jacobtk]

Why do the casings necessarily mean anything? He may have done something with them for his father or handled them on a hunting outing.

His prints would most likely be on the casings only if he loaded the gun. It is not very likely that he would handle most or all of the rounds still in the box. It also is not likely that his prints would not be on the casings at all if he was the shooter. Testing the gun for ballistics makes sense, but it would also make sense to test for prints other than the boy's to see who else might have handled the weapon.

[muska]

Good night all! Be kind tonight! :smile:

[dgfred]

Yes, it was an easy task. Nothing hard about picking off two unsuspecting men, like they were sitting ducks. No warning......no weapon in their hands to defend themselves. I doubt they had the ability to catch bullets in their teeth like Superman. :ohmy:

imoo

It seems to me that after the first shot Tim would have known where the shot came from and would have tried to dodge/run/anything to avoid the next shot... which in the mean time the boy would have to eject, reload, and fire again accurately... with a grown man moving either to avoid the next shot or to charge his position.

[Hawk]

Yes, it was an easy task. Nothing hard about picking off two unsuspecting men, like they were sitting ducks. No warning......no weapon in their hands to defend themselves.

imoo

Yes. Not hard physically but ice water veins. And more luck than a two time lottery winner.

[Jacobtk]

He's the only one that would choose that weapon.

Not necessarily. Assuming this was done by a family member, the person could have used the gun to frame the boy or used it because it was sitting out in the open (particularly if this was a spontaneous shooting).

[PensiveOne]

OMG of course!

Anyone know who CR says visits his mom when he is not home? A friend of Tiffany. It is bleeped out, but can anyone catch it??

Thanks, JD...I think it's Nicole. On one of newscasts it is not bleeped. I can't remember which one, though.

[dgfred]

What would it take to convince you? Short of a videotape of the crime

I'm starting to think that may be the only way I would believe he DID do
it.

[Hawk]

Not necessarily. Assuming this was done by a family member, the person could have used the gun to frame the boy or used it because it was sitting out in the open (particularly if this was a spontaneous shooting).

Or use it because it's relatively quite and easy to use. The 30-06 might have been challenging. And telling. It would have been heard at the police station (well, maybe not. But it's LOUD).

[PensiveOne]

OMG of course!

Anyone know who CR says visits his mom when he is not home? A friend of Tiffany. It is bleeped out, but can anyone catch it??

It is Nichole, page 12 of the written transcripts.

[dgfred]

I trust logic and common sense.

If it's his gun, his fingerprints on the casing, GSR on his clothes, ear witness and timeline all come together like I think it will, it's over. The boy is guilty.

If the kid wasn't 8 you'd feel much differently, wouldn't you?

If he wasn't 8, yes.

But the other things can be questioned and I'm wondering what the hold up is with the evidence... they should know if the casings have
his fingerprints and there are no others on the gun (if it was the only
one) or casings. I need more facts... how about a document dump :biggrin: ?

[Hawk]

And just so happens to have a bullet hole in his truck. I mean, most of us are probably driving around with a bullet hole or two in our vehicles as well, right?
:rolleyes:

Hey. What's wrong with bullet holes in your truck. It's a sign of.......experience. Yeah. And huh.........

[muska]

That is what the news was asking for!!

I had to come back for a minute because I just remembered something. Nichole's last name may or may not be Allen. CR said, "Nichole is Mrs. Allen's daughter, but then Neckels asked him if Nichole has a son named Timmy. CR didn't know but I guess this suggests Nichole might be married. Don't know.....CR said there's only one house between his and hers and implied that Nichole lived there with Mrs. Allen.

Just wanted to clarify in case it's important. :smile:

[PensiveOne]

TY!
Got it and replied to email.

The News reporters know more than the normal Joe. I hope she is onto something good.

Oh, me, too...I am too slow to keep up with everybody tonight. I went away for a while and when I got back you guys had 3 pages full. WOW, keep it up:thumbsup:

[SaraSidle]

Hello, so you think both the females did it together? I think I saw somebody else post that. The only problem is supposedly the two wives didn't like each other, so I dunno. There is also a girlfriend of TR. She is another possibility. I don't know if it is possible for two women to get along well enough to commit a murder together. But hey, we are all guessing here, so Welcome:smile:


thanks. wish I could open all your links here. I have no idea who did this but I also find it hard to believe an 8 yr old did it either. IMO

[PensiveOne]

thanks. wish I could open all your links here. I have no idea who did this but I also find it hard to believe an 8 yr old did it either. IMO

It is unbelievable and I pray it is wrong!

[steffaroob4]

Thanks for the autopsy links, I am still scratching my head over the "no evidence of close range firing" remarks, especialy the shot to TR back of the head (shot 2). I am very concerned over the downward shots in the chest, I wonder how that works, can a short boy shoot a standing man in the chest and the bullet go downward?

From my understanding the gun has to be about 2 to 2 1/2 feet away to leave no close range firing evidence. Seems like a lot of distance for a small child to pull off, especialy on the stairs/hallway.

I have more questions after reading the reports.

[PensiveOne]

G'night everybody. Keep up the good work. I'll catch up in the morning.

[ChildsVOICE]

the more i try to put the pieces of the puzzle together the top two suspects are women. there are a few others, but the top two are spouses of the deceased. i just can't shake that feeling.

Wonder how much insurance money that adds up to?:scared:

[PensiveOne]

Good morning. Just popping in to give you a link to a good anatomy chart, for those who want to dig a little deeper into the autopsy. Now I am off to work.

http://assets.cambridge.org/97805218/87564/excerpt/9780521887564_excerpt.pdf

[Crispy]

IMO His dad was trapped and was like a sitting duck. Three feet isn't a far distance, neither is ten feet. No skill required.


I will agree that with Vincent it probably wouldn't have been that hard to hit him, but I would think with Tim being outside and possibly moving that it would have taken more skill. You should take into account that I have zero experience firing a gun.(except for Duck Hunt on Nintendo and how many years ago was that?)

[GentleBreeze]

if he committed the murders, why would he be running to the neighbors?

He couldn't just stay there with his father's dead body on the stairs and Tim's body on the porch, while waiting for his mom to come home. He had to get the heck out of there and say he discovered their bodies.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

It seems to me that after the first shot Tim would have known where the shot came from and would have tried to dodge/run/anything to avoid the next shot... which in the mean time the boy would have to eject, reload, and fire again accurately... with a grown man moving either to avoid the next shot or to charge his position.

Yes, I do think most of us can think of things Tim should/could have done but all of this was happening within 24 feet from the house. If he turned to run back toward the truck then he knew the shooter could shoot him in the back or head. He was trapped.

But Tim was wounded after the first shot. He was no longer just a normal grown man but a wounded man that was having to comprehend this in seconds before being shot again and again. It only takes seconds for the gun to be ready to fire again and it doesn't take skill to shoot someone when they are within feet of you. The victim cant move fast enough or react fast enough to avoid being hit by the bullet. We don't know if they were accurate shots but I do think they were shots where the chests was vulnerable and he fired.

Maybe he thought the gunfire was being shot from the vicinity of the doorway to the home and he tried his best to come up on the left side hoping he could flatten himself out up against the home, hoping it would keep him out of the line of fire. We just don't know.

I for one, hope he never saw the shooter's face, if it was this boy, then Tim would have been even in more shock why this was happening to him.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

that doesn't make sense. why not stay there until his mom got home? if he did it, he could tell her the same thing. he could have stayed on the stairs with his dad.

How would he explain that to her or anyone else? Even two year olds can dial 911 nowadays. That he never called 911 or ran for help? Just do nothing when there are two men down in a pool of blood at his own home? That is what doesn't make sense to me, Iam.

IMO he had no choice Iam, he had to get out of there to make like it showed he discovered the bodies and then ran to tell someone immediately after he knew they were dead.

Respectfully, imo all the story about how he stayed by his dad's side is a bunch of bunk. There wasn't time to even stay at all imo.

imoo

[JD1974]

Or because they had no land line he would have to go upstairs past his dad to get his cell phone to call 911, that would be enough to make a kid run to the neighbors to call.

[Hawk]

Or because they had no land line he would have to go upstairs past his dad to get his cell phone to call 911, that would be enough to make a kid run to the neighbors to call.

He had already been up stairs at least once, when he nudged his dad. The cell phone was just a few feet away.

[Cherishlove]

i emailed childsvoiceandhope she is the one person i think could get it started for us. she dedicated the beautiful site on my space for the little boy. i don't really know much about petitions, but i sure would sign one for him.That was really nice of you I think if anyone would do that it is Childsvoiceandhope I have no idea about starting a petition either. But at this point we can talk and argue about who did this and how but to actually do something to help the boy would be nice.

[JD1974]

He had already been up stairs at least once, when he nudged his dad. The cell phone was just a few feet away.

Cell phone was in his bedroom, he could of nudged his dad without passing by him. It is possible he couldn't get past him. Depends on how VR was laying.

[GentleBreeze]

If he wasn't 8, yes.

But the other things can be questioned and I'm wondering what the hold up is with the evidence... they should know if the casings have
his fingerprints and there are no others on the gun (if it was the only
one) or casings. I need more facts... how about a document dump :biggrin: ?

I don't really think there is that much hold up on the evidence. I remember in the Sarah Walker case it took them over two months just to get the DNA evidence back where they could then run it through CODIS looking for a match and a suspect. Labs are continuously backed up and with the cut back due to the economy it will become even greater imo.

What is different here though this is being handled through the juvenile system where double homicides are as rare as hens' teeth imo. Most juvenile cases don't have complex testing results required so whatever evidence is required is usually accomplished in a more timely manner.

This is an adult like crime being handled in the juvenile court system and we who have kept up with cases here knows, that evidence can continue to come in even months later after an arrest. I have even seen cases where a new result will come in right before the trial is held and the Judge had to decide if that would come in too because it is newly discovered evidence.

Personally, I think most of the evidence IS back already and we just aren't privy to it.

imoo

[Cherishlove]

But instead he lied about staying on the stairs with his dad and high tailed it to the neighbors. Besides in his story, he was afraid they'd come back.
You need to watch the interragation tape again, they were not letting that boy out of there until he said he shot the gun, he never said he intially shot it ever. I believe the boy is innocent and a little 8/9 year old doesn't have the mind to plan this and carry it out, common sense tells you that. The men were killed by someone that wanted them both gone I feel. They lived a dangerous life styles, people at work/bar mad at them, how coincedintal that the Roommate asked another woman to marry him the night before and he was already married??? The roommate also slept with another woman who had a phsyco boyfriend, problems with Mexican Internationals, gun shot in car, drugs the list goes on and on. And we have a Step Mother out partying a couple weeks after her husband was killed and step son sitting in isolated juvie? No I don't believe the little boy did this. The worst part is they threw him in isolated juvie less than 24 hours after this happened and they hadn't even begun a indepth investigation.

[GentleBreeze]

I agree. Gag orders sure makes for some frustrating speculation:cursing:

Good Morning!

I just thought of something.

Judge Roca has not ruled whether this will be forwarded to an adult court or if it will be tried in juvenile court, has he?

So how does that work? If that has not been determined yet then where does the 45 day rule fit in? Doesn't the ruling have to come first? Maybe that is why JR knows that the time is not an issue YET.

Not sure if I am making myself clear. lol I need another glass of Coke Classic.:tongueside:

imoo

[FDInLaw]

I agree. Gag orders sure makes for some frustrating speculation:cursing:
Guess there must be a bigger picture. . . who really needs to know. (LOL) I hear your frustration.

[dgfred]

I don't really think there is that much hold up on the evidence. I remember in the Sarah Walker case it took them over two months just to get the DNA evidence back where they could then run it through CODIS looking for a match and a suspect. Labs are continuously backed up and with the cut back due to the economy it will become even greater imo.

What is different here though this is being handled through the juvenile system where double homicides are as rare as hens' teeth imo. Most juvenile cases don't have complex testing results required so whatever evidence is required is usually accomplished in a more timely manner.

This is an adult like crime being handled in the juvenile court system and we who have kept up with cases here knows, that evidence can continue to come in even months later after an arrest. I have even seen cases where a new result will come in right before the trial is held and the Judge had to decide if that would come in too because it is newly discovered evidence.

Personally, I think most of the evidence IS back already and we just aren't privy to it.

imoo

So they will release an interrogation tape, nudging a 8yr old boy into confessing to murdering 2 adult men... but won't release any information
that would 'prove' the boy did or did not do it... very strange. Come on- release a video, don't release fingerprint evidence. Why?

[GentleBreeze]

I thought it was staying in juvenile court? :crying: I just can't remember where I got it from...I'm a Pepsi in the morning person myself :beer:

LOL I am confused. Has Judge Roca ruled on that yet?

Here's to you <Pepsi>:beer:

imo

[GentleBreeze]

So they will release an interrogation tape, nudging a 8yr old boy into confessing to murdering 2 adult men... but won't release any information
that would 'prove' the boy did or did not do it... very strange. Come on- release a video, don't release fingerprint evidence. Why?

I don't know. In every case I have seen the DA may release some things and then hold other things close to their vest.

The video was before a gag order was in place and the media at that time had a right to have it.

imoo

[dgfred]

I don't know. In every case I have seen the DA may release some things and then hold other things close to their vest.

The video was before a gag order was in place and the media at that time had a right to have it.

imoo

Yeah, the gag order looks like it covers up mistakes, instead of clearing up matters. Wasn't the tape released like a day or two after the murders? Couldn't fingerprint stuff have been done just as fast?

[mina]

How would she know "of" her, but nothing more. And of course, why does she need to know?

Perhaps she is the Nicole who allegedly partied with Tiffany in Flagstaff 4 days after the murders?

(per anonymous blog comment, so very much just allegedly)

[dgfred]

Thanks for those murder by age stats. Funny thing is, last night I was thinking of asking y'all today if there had EVER been a murder of two grown men by someone 8 or under. :confused:

[dgfred]

So is the grandpa that comes over alot the dad's or the stepmom's dad?

[GentleBreeze]

Thanks for those murder by age stats. Funny thing is, last night I was thinking of asking y'all today if there had EVER been a murder of two grown men by someone 8 or under. :confused:

I doubt it but here is another link where the child was 9 years old when they killed.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,158126,00.html

NEW YORK — A 9-year-old girl fatally stabbed an 11-year-old girl in the chest with a steak knife during a fight over a ball, authorities said.

[dgfred]

I doubt it but here is another link where the child was 9 years old when they killed.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,158126,00.html

NEW YORK — A 9-year-old girl fatally stabbed an 11-year-old girl in the chest with a steak knife during a fight over a ball, authorities said.

I meant more like the 'hunting' humans kind of killings (double or more).

[mina]

Yes, that fits. A methodical murder. :glare:

... of two grown men.

[GentleBreeze]

I thought it might be a good idea to peruse some crime statistics over the past few years. There are a million and one ways to search, but I found some things very surprising. The most important of these things is that in the 3 years I search, from 2005-2007, there were ZERO murders commited by anyone aged 8 or under! Imagine that! ZERO! But our prime suspect was in fact 8 years old.

Now the data does go up (albiet very little) to 9-12 year old offenders. About 10 per year. Wonder how that breaks down? I'm guessing it leans heavily toward the 12 year old end rather than 9.

So I guess we are led to believe that this particular 8 year old committed the first murder by an 8 year old in at least 4 years, that we know of...but wait!!! Committed 2 of them at the SAME TIME!!!

Not only that, but these victims were full grown men, one was his dad, the other no relation. He would have committed the perfect crime as well if it had not been for that call from Tanya. He remained cool calm and collected until beaten down by two police officers, where it all went out the window and he broke down and confessed.

Wow...this kid is special alright....so special he has truly made history. I guess they'll be talking about this case forever.

Take some time to look through some of the other data. Lots of interesting stuff! Happy reading!:read:

Main Page:
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm

Murder by Age-2007
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_03.html

Murder by Age-2006
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_03.html

Murder by Age-2005
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_03.html

While this is interesting the stats are skewed. The FBI keeps statistics based on if there is a resolution to the case. Determining a victim and a defendant that recieved a conviction. If the child who killed was of a young age where they did not go to trial or receive a conviction then the FBI does not record those or includes them in their stats imo.

Just like the little girl who was 9 when she killed her playmate over an argument about a ball and that happened in 2005, iirc.

So I am sure I can find other young children who have also killed around this boy's age.

imo

[dgfred]

I can't get in court records. It is just sitting and spinning, and my computer is super fast :cursing:

You better tighten up J D :biggrin: .

[wolfi_2]

I can't get in court records. It is just sitting and spinning, and my computer is super fast :cursing:



in this case, nothing new at the court site!

[GentleBreeze]

I meant more like the 'hunting' humans kind of killings (double or more).

I would certain hope there aren't other young children who have committed double homicide.

But I am not positive about that. It may be that they have but I sincerely hope this is an anomaly.

imoo

[mina]

I can't get in court records. It is just sitting and spinning, and my computer is super fast :cursing:

I'm having the same problem - I think the database is just slow right now.

[dgfred]

I would certain hope there aren't other young children who have committed double homicide.

But I am not positive about that. It may be that they have but I sincerely hope this is an anomaly.

imoo

See that is what I mean- kids that age don't think in that manner: ambush two grown men/ set up lie/ fake emotions/... weird. Hard to believe it has never happened before, yet he was so efficient at it.

[GentleBreeze]

:tonguewag:

By an 8 year old....she was 9!

Sorry...try again!


:lol::lol: Oh yeah I forgot she was at the ripe old age of 9. In 1.5 months he would have been nine also! lol

imo

[GentleBreeze]

See that is what I mean- kids that age don't think in that manner: ambush two grown men/ set up lie/ fake emotions/... weird. Hard to believe it has never happened before, yet he was so efficient at it.

We just cant group ALL kids into one tiny box to make them all the same. There are exceptions all the time in everything.

imoo

[dgfred]

We just cant group ALL kids into one tiny box to make them all the same. There are exceptions all the time in everything.

imoo

Come on now, can't I at least sway you a little to the 'light' :biggrin: ?

[mina]

Anyone know Tiffany's maiden name?

Devall (sometimes misspelled as Duvall)

[GentleBreeze]

Come on now, can't I at least sway you a little to the 'light' :biggrin: .

If I saw anything that pointed away from this boy, I would change my position, but as of now, I do think that he is the one that did this. I would love to be wrong.

I do understand perfectly though, why many don't want to accept that a 8 year old boy is capable of doing this.

imoo

[Hawk]

Case Number: M-0541-CR-20070509 Case Category: Criminal Case Title: ST OF AZ VS ALLEN NICOLE Party Name: NICOLE ALLEN Party Type: D 1 - DEFNDT/RESPNDT Date of Birth: 04/14/1983
Citation: C00021953 Count 1: ASSAULT Disposition Date: 03/19/2008
Count 2: CRIMINAL DAMAGE Disposition Date: 03/19/2008

Citation: CNONE Count 3: DISORDERLY CONDUCT Disposition Date: 03/19/2008


Maybe? Born 1983?


Case solved! Get your ropes, folks.

[dgfred]

Could someone give me the rundown on the previous drug problem and related issues?

[Hawk]

hammer :punch: hammer

Just kidding. It's a slow day.
Nothing worth watching on TV.

[wolfi_2]

God bless your new president !

[dgfred]

IMO the gag order is in place because the child was 8 and they want to protect his identity


Everyone was going to know who the kid was as soon as who was murdered was known.

They released the video, release the fingerprint proof and everything else would not be relevent- if he did it or not.

[Details]

Ditto :thumbsup:

I'm way more interested in what we can do to help instead of debate the what if, who dunnit, etc. I was over at the other board (WS) and that and it seemed that this is what was happening over there. So I stumbled upon this one and it was more along the lines of what I needed...to find some small way to help. Now it looks like many of the same people from there are over here because the activity has decreased.
Maybe we should start of thread of what we can do to help.Nah, keep it inline with the discussion - that helps all of us see the opportunities to help, when somethign comes up that we might be able to help with.

[Cherishlove]

I doubt it but here is another link where the child was 9 years old when they killed.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,158126,00.html

NEW YORK — A 9-year-old girl fatally stabbed an 11-year-old girl in the chest with a steak knife during a fight over a ball, authorities said.I live in Michigan and a 6 year old boy took a gun to school and shot a little girl (in Detroit) but they don't know what death is a that age and of course it was the parents fault that the little kid even got ahold of a gun he (the little boy) was never charged of course. I feel any child that gets ahold of a gun and there is a death it's the adults fault. Even the 12 year old boy in Arizona that shot his Mom, for abusing him, how did he get ahold of a gun? I think it's the parents fault when a child gets ahold of a gun at there home and they (the parents/adult responsible for the child) should be the locked up for it.

[Details]

FRom the same article in context:

"Melnick said Arizona law generally holds that a child under age 10 lacks competency to be criminally responsible for a homicide.

However, he added, "we think an exception can be made based on the facts and circumstances" in the St. Johns case.They've been looking to make two exceptions - one to even charge him, then another to make it an adult case! Outrageous! They're acting like this is a full, mature adult.


And - for the O/T:
Hey hey hey, Goodbye!!! :thumbsup:

[JusMeX1]

1. Delia Allen is Nicole's mom
2. Nicole is about 24 or 25 years old
3. Tiffany and her have been friends for a while not exactly sure how long though
4. Nicole has an older brother and a younger brother
5. Nicole tried to commit suicide in August or September of 2008
6. That facebook picture is not the same Nicole Allen
7. Tiffany's dad lives in St. Johns
8. Nicole now lives in the house with Tiffany

[Perplexed1]

Hey, maybe CR had a little ladder with him that he dragged around in between shots. The 2 adult men did nothing but lie there conveniently waiting to be shot again. What a criminal genius! Ice water indeed. Then he goes and spills everything to academy award nominee Officer Avila.[/QUOTE]




Sterling!!!

[JD1974]

Number 8. Interesting....

[Details]

Thanks, JustMeX1.

[JD1974]

Oh yeah Justice I never got a pm!....


I agree that caretakers of any house that a child can get a gun from and commit a crime or accident should be held responsible.

[JD1974]

Honestly, I am thinking she probably said she had nothing to do with the guns, it was VR. Distanced herself asap from the kid.

[FurthurBB]

If I saw anything that pointed away from this boy, I would change my position, but as of now, I do think that he is the one that did this. I would love to be wrong.

I do understand perfectly though, why many don't want to accept that a 8 year old boy is capable of doing this.

imoo


I have no problem believing that an eight-year-old boy is capable of murder, but, I can see why you always need to throw something like this out there to validate your opinion. For me, it is the lack of evidence and the lack of previous behavioral problems. Now, granted no one has a history of murder until they have murdered, but, I have never heard of a single case of an adult or a child who commits such a brutal crime without some prior history of violence or instability. IMO

[Jacobtk]

Judge Roca has not ruled whether this will be forwarded to an adult court or if it will be tried in juvenile court, has he?

So how does that work? If that has not been determined yet then where does the 45 day rule fit in? Doesn't the ruling have to come first? Maybe that is why JR knows that the time is not an issue YET.

Currently the case is still in the juvenile court. Technically, juvenile cases are supposed to be sealed, but because the prosecutors released the video, essentially publicizing the boy's identity, sealing the proceedings would be pointless. The ruling does not come first. In Arizona, any child under 14 years old is automatically handled by the juvenile court. The state must petition to have the case moved to adult court. Because the case is still in the juvenile court, Roca must abide by the juvenile court rules, which means that the 45-day limit is in effect (or would be had he not stalled the case to allow the state to gather their evidence) and by now the boy would have been released.

As for the crime itself, there is no such thing as an "adult" crime. A crime is a crime and can be committed by anyone. It is why the crime happened that is relevant and in the case of children they very rarely commit acts of violence for the same reasons as adults.

Children are not adults and they do not think like adults. People tend to forget that when it is convenient for them to do so. The public does it. Jurors do it. The state does it. Child abusers do it.The same people claiming this boy is capable of adult thinking probably would not agree that at 8 years old he could consent to sex or would be capable of voting or deciding to drink or ought to be placed in charge of anyone or anything.

[FurthurBB]

FRom the same article in context:

"Melnick said Arizona law generally holds that a child under age 10 lacks competency to be criminally responsible for a homicide.

However, he added, "we think an exception can be made based on the facts and circumstances" in the St. Johns case.

Yeah, the facts that if he is not held criminally responsible they will look like the bunch of idiots that they are. IMO

[wolfi_2]

I live in Michigan and a 6 year old boy took a gun to school and shot a little girl (in Detroit) but they don't know what death is a that age and of course it was the parents fault that the little kid even got ahold of a gun he (the little boy) was never charged of course. I feel any child that gets ahold of a gun and there is a death it's the adults fault. Even the 12 year old boy in Arizona that shot his Mom, for abusing him, how did he get ahold of a gun? I think it's the parents fault when a child gets ahold of a gun at there home and they (the parents/adult responsible for the child) should be the locked up for it.


that´s what I always say !

[Jacobtk]

IMO the gag order is in place because the child was 8 and they want to protect his identity

The gag order was placed because the police chief went public and made unsubstantiated claims about abuse in the boy's home. It had to be amended after the prosecutors released the unedited interrogation video with the boy's face completely visible. It is the state that Roca has had to silence, not anyone else.

Ironically, the state, under Roca's permission, has continued to release juvenile court records to the public (which never happens) with the boy's full name. If Roca were trying to protect the boy's identity, none of the records, reports or transcripts would be made available.

[GentleBreeze]

Currently the case is still in the juvenile court. Technically, juvenile cases are supposed to be sealed, but because the prosecutors released the video, essentially publicizing the boy's identity, sealing the proceedings would be pointless. The ruling does not come first. In Arizona, any child under 14 years old is automatically handled by the juvenile court. The state must petition to have the case moved to adult court. Because the case is still in the juvenile court, Roca must abide by the juvenile court rules, which means that the 45-day limit is in effect (or would be had he not stalled the case to allow the state to gather their evidence) and by now the boy would have been released.

As for the crime itself, there is no such thing as an "adult" crime. A crime is a crime and can be committed by anyone. It is why the crime happened that is relevant and in the case of children they very rarely commit acts of violence for the same reasons as adults.

Children are not adults and they do not think like adults. People tend to forget that when it is convenient for them to do so. The public does it. Jurors do it. The state does it. Child abusers do it.The same people claiming this boy is capable of adult thinking probably would not agree that at 8 years old he could consent to sex or would be capable of voting or deciding to drink or ought to be placed in charge of anyone or anything.

A Judge can seal his courtroom at anytime.

From the Apache court site the ones handling the case is the Superior Court of that county. So it has not been determined yet where or if there will be a trial or in what court. At this time he is being held in the juvenile center because of his age.

This isn't about voting or being able to have consensual sex...this case is about double homicide for which there is no law that says that one can do that when they reach a certain age.

imoo

[Jacobtk]

From the Apache court site the ones handling the case is the Supreme Court of that county. So it has not been determined yet where or if there will be a trial or in what court. At this time he is being held in the juvenile center because of his age.

Under Arizona law juvenile cases are sealed and the information is not supposed to be open to the public. That Roca can seal the proceedings at anytime does not matter. By disseminating the records he is technically violating the law.

This isn't about voting or being able to have consensual sex...this case is about double homicide for which there is no law that says that one can do that when they reach a certain age.

The laws about consent and voting are not based on what is legal, but what a child is capable of understanding and comprehending at a given age. The same reasoning must apply across the board or not at all. Either children are capable of adult thinking or they are not. If they are not, then this boy cannot be held culpable (if he did it) because of his age.

[JD1974]

Supposed to be the new boyfriend. I was just going to ask about that, you beat me to it...wonder if it is true or not?

[JD1974]

The laws about consent and voting are not based on what is legal, but what a child is capable of understanding and comprehending at a given age. The same reasoning must apply across the board or not at all. Either children are capable of adult thinking or they are not. If they are not, then this boy cannot be held culpable (if he did it) because of his age.

Snipped..


THANK YOU!!! That is what I am always trying to say!!

[GentleBreeze]

The judge ruled NO to a Jury trial. What does that tell you?
Anything at all?
Just wondering.


I am not saying if this goes to trial it wont be in juvenile court. I do think it will be. All I am saying, as of now, he hasn't ruled on that one way or the other.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Under Arizona law juvenile cases are sealed and the information is not supposed to be open to the public. That Roca can seal the proceedings at anytime does not matter. By disseminating the records he is technically violating the law.



The laws about consent and voting are not based on what is legal, but what a child is capable of understanding and comprehending at a given age. The same reasoning must apply across the board or not at all. Either children are capable of adult thinking or they are not. If they are not, then this boy cannot be held culpable (if he did it) because of his age.

By that assumption that the age of 18 is some magical number for comprehending then there would be no underage juveniles tried for any crimes and that absolutely happens and even young juveniles have been tried as an adult.

imoo

[wolfi_2]

By that assumption that the age of 18 is some magical number for comprehending then there would be no underage juveniles tried for any crimes and that absolutely happens and even young juveniles have been tried as an adult.

imoo

and isn´t it sick, to try children as adult?
http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/opinion/stories/2008/06/25/kidsed.html

[GentleBreeze]

and isn´t it sick, to try children as adult?
http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/opinion/stories/2008/06/25/kidsed.html

It depends on the case and circumstances imo.

How horrific the crimes where. If they were planned or premeditated. If the suspect knew right from wrong and tried to cover up that they had committed the crimes..........etc.

imoo

[FDInLaw]

IMO the gag order is in place because the child was 8 and they want to protect his identityUnder the law, the boy's identity is protected with or without a gag order. . . it really has nothing to do with it (if I am not mistaken). A gag order helps preserve evidence/testimony for trial and actively guards against unnecessary public prejudiced in the hopes of providing the defendant a fair trail. At least this is my layman understanding.

[wolfi_2]

It depends on the case and circumstances imo.

How horrific the crimes where. If they were planned or premeditated. If the suspect knew right from wrong and tried to cover up that they had committed the crimes..........etc.

imoo


but people which seriously like to try 8 or 9,10,11,12,13 year old kid's as adult are sick! IMO

[JD1974]

Everyone who posts knows his name because the court isn't redacting his name from the filings.


ETA That was for FNinLaw...they are supposed to protect him, or at least I thought they were. The court filings have his name all over them.

[FDInLaw]

It depends on the case and circumstances imo.

How horrific the crimes where. If they were planned or premeditated. If the suspect knew right from wrong and tried to cover up that they had committed the crimes..........etc.

imoo

I agree with you.

It's not "sick" to prosecute minors as adults. Some situations do warrant this. However, IMO, this may not be one of those cases. . . the verdict is still out for me personally, but I am nervous about how this was handled from the beginning.

[Jacobtk]

By that assumption that the age of 18 is some magical number for comprehending then there would be no underage juveniles tried for any crimes and that absolutely happens and even young juveniles have been tried as an adult.

Actually, most psychologists state that adult thinking does not fully develop until one's mid-twenties. You are correct though that the age of 18 is an arbitrarily chosen number, although it should be noted that it is also the age in which male must register for the draft, which may be the reason why it became the age of majority (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_majority) in the United States.

[GentleBreeze]

GentleBreeze, I urge you to go here and see the wedding photos. Beautiful!

I went there but couldn't find the wedding pictures.

Are they the same ones we have seen very shortly after all this happened? I have those saved.

TIA

[FDInLaw]

Not to be a party pooper. . . but I just wrote "Pam" and let her know that she may want to change her privacy settings. I don't feel good about this. . .

[Perplexed1]

Supposed to be the new boyfriend. I was just going to ask about that, you beat me to it...wonder if it is true or not?

Are you actually saying Tiffany already has a 'new' boyfreind?!?

[Cherishlove]

and isn´t it sick, to try children as adult?
http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/opinion/stories/2008/06/25/kidsed.html
The mind doesn't fully develop until around the age of 23, and yes it is very sick to try a child as an adult especially an 9 year old??

[Details]

The mind doesn't fully develope until around the age of 23, and yes it is very sick to try a child as an adult.They're so far from developed at 8, 9, 10 - it's just nothing like an adult's ability to reason, decide, and understand consequences. Nothing like even a teenager's abilities - it's just so far.

[FDInLaw]

How can anyone save the identity of his boy when his own family has photos of him all over the internet? :confused:
Ugh. No kidding! :unsure:

[Details]

IMO, his identity is a hopeless case - it's out, on the internet for anyone who wants to find out.

But - so long as it stays off of mainstream media, major sites, so long as you have to search for it, it should be pretty OK, IMO, for his future life. Most people he meets won't know.

[FDInLaw]

The mind doesn't fully develope until around the age of 23, and yes it is very sick to try a child as an adult.
Do we really need to dig up the horrific cases that show how physically capable some youth have been when they destroyed lives and families??? Really? IMO age should not dismiss one who commits an atrocity. Special care and consideration needs to take place in juvenile cases, but to suggest that the judicial process should just give them a free pass is asinine. IMHO

[Perplexed1]

You to go to St John's and I'll let you know from there. :thumbsup:

:lol::lol:

[FDInLaw]

i hope so this little boy has got enough on his plate. you would think the grandmother would take off those wedding pictures of her daughter and son-law and the little boy for at least til this case dies down. tells me that she really don't care one way or another.

The family does seem clueless. They really need legal representation. . . someone to tell them how to deal with all this. MOO

[Perplexed1]

The mind doesn't fully develop until around the age of 23, and yes it is very sick to try a child as an adult especially an 9 year old??

23 huh? I find that believable. :tonguewag:

[FDInLaw]

23 huh? I find that believable. :tonguewag:

Interesting article:

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/node/1225


Structurally, the brain is still growing and maturing during adolescence, beginning its final push around 16 or 17, many brain-imaging researchers agree. Some say that growth maxes out at age 20. Others, such as Jay Giedd of the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH) in Bethesda, Maryland, consider 25 the age at which brain maturation peaks. Various types of brain scans and anatomic dissections show that as teens age, disordered-looking neuron cell bodies known as gray matter recede, and neuron projections covered in a protective fatty sheath, called white matter, take over. In 1999, Giedd and colleagues showed that just before puberty, children have a growth spurt of gray matter. This is followed by massive "pruning" in which about 1% of gray matter is pared down each year during the teen years, while the total volume of white matter ramps up. This process is thought to shape the brain's neural connections for adulthood, based on experience.

[Details]

Do we really need to dig up the horrific cases that show how physically capable some youth have been when they destroyed lives and families??? Really? IMO age should not dismiss one who commits an atrocity. Special care and consideration needs to take place in juvenile cases, but to suggest that the judicial process should just give them a free pass is asinine. IMHOAge must be a consideration. When a 1 year old (to take the extreme example) is given a loaded gun to play with, manages to pull the trigger - should we not give them a free pass, and charge and try them for their atrocity? Or do we recognize the limits of their mental processes, and their inability to comprehend what they did? As they get older, their level of comprehension grows, their self-control grows - but it takes time - purely as a medical issue, it takes time for all of these parts of the brain to grow!

They may be physically capable - but emotionally, mentally, they are children. We don't let them drive, they should never have access to guns and other weapons. When the are given them, and a tragedy happens - it's the fault of the adult who allowed them access to tools only an adult should have.

You can't look at it, and judge the act and their responsibility by adult standards - when my daughter picks up a piece of fine china and smashes it to the ground - that's not the same as when an adult does. If - and that's a huge, HUGE if - this boy did it - he's the first in a few decades. And the last one was a case of horrible abuse. Fact is, 8 year olds don't do this - because normally responsible adults protect them from themselves. To think somehow this perfectly normal seeming young boy with no history of ANY sort of trouble nor misbehavior other than normal 8 year old failings in homework, is the first child in so long to kill - that's incredibly improbable. Neighbors, classmates - no one has seen anything to indicate he's got any problems - and he jumps (supposedly) from being normal, messy, little boy to sociopathic, ice-cold, perfectionist murderer - then back to malleable child for the interrogation?

Our juvenile justice system recognizes the lesser responsibility of those who have not had the time for their brain to grow all of the abilities of an adult. But there is an age below that limit, where you have to recognize that the indivdual is not a juvenile, but truely a child, where their actions belong to the adults who allowed them.


However, in this case, while many would say that no 8 year old has the mental capacity to commit murder - the big question is if he did kill anyone, since there are many forensic and other reasons to believe otherwise.

[Perplexed1]

Interesting article:

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/node/1225

All laughing aside....I was raised in a CRAZY half (both parents 1/2 or more) Indian household, in Carlsbad NM. That's one reason I follow this case so close, plus hearing that little guys voice. You can't judge Eryn by her past life. I was married at 15, had 2 children by 21! I have a whole different life now. I was a product of my invironment. Of course I got my GED and I manage retail. I sure raised my kids differently. This little boy needs to be with Eryn!!

[Perplexed1]

i emailed childshopeandvoice to let her know about the little boy's pictures on pam's my space. so she can let eryn know if she doesn't already, because it is her son and she has every right to know of any thing involving her son.

That's good. But I was sure glad to get to see his picture! I was looking fast! :biggrin:

[Perplexed1]

me too. he looks soooooooooo cute and innocent. he sure doesn't look like he would do what everyone is saying. he looks so much like his dad unbelievable! my heart just breaks for him every day.

That's why my heart goes out to him. My sister had a boy after I was married and gone, left him on his own too much. My mom ended up with him. He was eventually taken by CPS, at 9 yrs., and said 'I don't want to live with these people anymore'. How sad is that?

[Details]

23 huh? I find that believable. :tonguewag:I've seen it with plenty of people. Different people grow up at different rates - but there are plenty of 18 year olds that turn into very different people by their early 20's.

[Perplexed1]

I can't even tell you how many times that very idea has crossed my mind. I will let you know when I head that way.

Let's all go! :cursing:

[JD1974]

Are you actually saying Tiffany already has a 'new' boyfreind?!?



No. I was asking if it is true that she does. I don't know, it was posted somewhere else and the name which I am not going to post is posted by someone else. I am not posting the name because if it is not true, I do not want to involve some innocent person.

[GentleBreeze]

i hope so this little boy has got enough on his plate. you would think the grandmother would take off those wedding pictures of her daughter and son-law and the little boy for at least til this case dies down. tells me that she really don't care one way or another.

Maybe she wants to cling to happier memories before their lives were shattered.

[Perplexed1]

Your are absolutely correct! Eryn is there for the boy now and this is when he needs her the most. I pray he can get through this and they can both settle into annonominity.

Amen :wub:

[Perplexed1]

No. I was asking if it is true that she does. I don't know, it was posted somewhere else and the name which I am not going to post is posted by someone else. I am not posting the name because if it is not true, I do not want to involve some innocent person.

I saw the picture on the Axton Romero page. They seem like sweet people. Each family, and the extended families, have good and bad. I would not won't to be judged by my past, or family, if a tragedy befell us! I think this was someone after Tim. VR should not have let Tim live in their home. IMO

[JD1974]

The axtonromero page is not him, although the person who posted about the new boyfriend posted it there. I have no idea if it is true, thats why I was asking. The guys name has been posted on this board but I am not sure it should be unless it is confirmed. I would hate for this to be some random person with nothing to do with any of this having his name all over the internet.

[Details]

me too. he looks soooooooooo cute and innocent. he sure doesn't look like he would do what everyone is saying. he looks so much like his dad unbelievable! my heart just breaks for him every day.I never go by looks - but were he any sort of problem, the neighbors, his teachers, his classmates and their parents would know. They've said he was a normal, good little boy.

[Cherishlove]

me too. he looks soooooooooo cute and innocent. he sure doesn't look like he would do what everyone is saying. he looks so much like his dad unbelievable! my heart just breaks for him every day.I missed his photo darn but I'm glad it was taken off.

[Jacobtk]

Assuming what you say is true, then he should be tried in juvenile court. He doesn't simply get a free pass.

The juvenile courts in most states acknowledge that a child his age is incapable of forming intent and therefore should not be prosecuted at all. To this point, this is the reason why prosecutors do not like putting children under 10 on the stand. It is too easy for them to be confused, to forget or make up information to please adults or them to just clam up.

I think it is reasonable to exclude children under a certain age from criminal prosecution due to a child's inability to understand their own actions and the court proceedings. My preference would be that no one under 12 years old should face prosecution and that no one under the national age of majority limit should be tried as an adult. However, if the latter were not allowed, then I would want every child charged as an adult and later exonerated or acquitted to keep their adult status, meaning that person could sign legally binding documents, get a driver's license, register to vote, etc.

[Perplexed1]

Why was he taken? Weren't you able to take him? Sorry, I'm just nosey...you really don't have to answer.

I figured somone might ask that. I, and my younger sister, are both Christians. They would rather he went to strangers. He's been adopted by his foster family.

[FDInLaw]

"When the case of Christopher Simmons, who committed murder at age 17, comes before the same justices in October, says law professor Steven Drizin of Northwestern University in Chicago, defense attorneys hope to equate juvenile culpability to that of mentally retarded persons. "Juveniles function very much like the mentally retarded. The biggest similarity is their cognitive deficit. [Teens] may be highly functioning, but that doesn't make them capable of making good decisions," he says. Brain and behavior research supports that contention, argues Drizin, who represents the Children and Family Justice Center at Northwestern on the amicus curiae brief for Simmons. The "standard of decency" today is that teens do not deserve the same extreme punishment as adults."

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/node/1225

If, in fact, 17 year olds are running around with such a serious mental deficit, why on earth do we have 18 year olds in Iraq toting automatic weapons, making split second life and death decisions??? I'm sorry, but this brain stuff is a crock of you know what. . . yes, the adolescent mind is still developing and special consideration needs to take place BUT. . . are you serious????

I agree that teens make stupid decisions, but still, to use this to argue culpability just doesn't wash with me.

[FurthurBB]

Do we really need to dig up the horrific cases that show how physically capable some youth have been when they destroyed lives and families??? Really? IMO age should not dismiss one who commits an atrocity. Special care and consideration needs to take place in juvenile cases, but to suggest that the judicial process should just give them a free pass is asinine. IMHO

Being tried as a juvenile and not being tried at all are not even in the same catagory. IMO

[FurthurBB]

i hope so this little boy has got enough on his plate. you would think the grandmother would take off those wedding pictures of her daughter and son-law and the little boy for at least til this case dies down. tells me that she really don't care one way or another.

Do not assume she doesn't care. It is much more likely that it never even entered her head how invasive people can be. IMO

[ChildsVOICE]

i emailed childshopeandvoice to let her know about the little boy's pictures on pam's my space. so she can let eryn know if she doesn't already, because it is her son and she has every right to know of any thing involving her son.

Thank you sooooo much! I have forwarded this information along with the link to Eryn and to his Aunt Amanda.


I always check the new mail on the childshopeandvoice myspace page first before trying to catch up here. Many times I come on In Session with intention of adding a few points but get bogged down with trying to catch up. LOL That's a good thing! Sometimes, I run out of time to actually make a comment! LOL

Point is... everybody if you have a REALLY important piece of information that you think I should pass on to the boy's Attorney or family, please let me know. I try to monitor how much email I send to them because of their time constraints. I have not contacted the DA but once, early on before the gag order and that was to give him some important tips that panned out to be good news. I figure he has way to much to do and I do not want to bog him down with answering too many emails. So, I try to only send things I think will help with the defense. A lot of times I give info to Eryn and Amanda and let them decide to pass it along to the DA. Some things they may already know and it would be more efficient to allow the family to sort through info so we don't duplicate, ect.

Thanks again. This was a VERY important thing you've done to help protect this little one!

[Hawk]

he looks so small. not near big enough.

So does a baby Taipan. But a little snake grows into a big one.

[JD1974]

I can only imagine how many emails Woods and Brewer are getting every day. I know I have emailed Woods...

[Jacobtk]

If, in fact, 17 year olds are running around with such a serious mental deficit, why on earth do we have 18 year olds in Iraq toting automatic weapons, making split second life and death decisions???

We do this and have done this for thousands of years because youths are easily manipulated, controlled and highly susceptible to group think. If one manages to gain their trust and indoctrinate them enough (which generally does not take long with the addition of peer pressure) they make excellent soldiers in that they will not question orders, they will throw their lives away recklessly and generally there is an abundance of them. Granted, the officers in charge typically do not think of the troops in that manner. However, the reason behind using young men is because of their physical stamina and malleability.

I agree that teens make stupid decisions, but still, to use this to argue culpability just doesn't wash with me.

Think about what you just wrote. If teenagers collectively make stupid decisions that you can cite it as a norm, then it stands to reason that there is something about being a teenager that lessens their ability to both control and understand their behavior through no fault of their own. Being such, how can you hold them fully culpable for something they cannot control?

[FDInLaw]

Being tried as a juvenile and not being tried at all are not even in the same catagory. IMO
True. I was being too dramatic (lol). :blushing:

[mrrogers]

Autopsy Reports:

Two Copper-coated bullets are found.
One in each man.
Both Copper-coated bullets found in the arm wounds of each man.

http://www.firearmsid.com/Bullets/bullet1.htm

this could be a breakthrough as the bullet in the gun was not copper coated
copper coated 22s arent that common but then to they could have used them then put a different one in the gun to throw everyone off
we are not dealing with fools instead put all the stuff together the head shots the lung shot the heart shot dont seem very randomly placed and i dont think c could do that good with a moving target

[mrrogers]

39 I think. Still too young. IMO

with all that going on he sounded like a walking time bomb

[Hawk]

The boy is not a snake, he's a human child. He will become a fine young man after therapy and support of loving people who believe in him.

Maybe so. Just fanning the flames a little in the middle of this love fest. Sounds like there's been a lot of fishing with barbless hooks today.

[FDInLaw]

We do this and have done this for thousands of years because youths are easily manipulated, controlled and highly susceptible to group think. If one manages to gain their trust and indoctrinate them enough (which generally does not take long with the addition of peer pressure) they make excellent soldiers in that they will not question orders, they will throw their lives away recklessly and generally there is an abundance of them. Granted, the officers in charge typically do not think of the troops in that manner. However, the reason behind using young men is because of their physical stamina and malleability.



Think about what you just wrote. If teenagers collectively make stupid decisions that you can cite it as a norm, then it stands to reason that there is something about being a teenager that lessens their ability to both control and understand their behavior through no fault of their own. Being such, how can you hold them fully culpable for something they cannot control?

I don't believe teens should be prosecuted as adults unless they are close to the cut off age and the severity of the crime warrants it. My argument is against those that feel it is quote “sick” to ever try an adolescent as an adult. I tend to avoid absolutes. . .

In the case of this child, his age alone should insure that if he is tried at all it should be as a child (IMO). If this youth is guilty of what is alleged, in my mind abuse may well be a contributing factor. Environmental factors would have played as much a role as brain development. MOO

[mrrogers]

just curious was tim's daughters his bio children? the guy sounds like he had a shady past and was wondering? i really don't want to question the deceased since they can't defend themselves. i am so surprised even though it it in his past that vince would have a man like that in and around his only son. i am curious though who did the little boy have a better friendship with tiffany or tim? i do hope and pray that brewer/wood get this boy out of there real soon.

i RAN HIS name thru the az law system there s no record for drugs just a few speeding etc

[ChildsVOICE]

This may be a point previously covered. However, I did come to this board a tad late. I happened to think of something yesterday...

I'm a Protestant who attended a Catholic school.

Check out this website:

http://www.saintaquinas.com/mortal_sin.html

"In the Bible, St. Paul gives us a list of grave sins. He states that anyone who commits these sins shall not enter the kingdom of God. "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, ..."

I was remembering when I first was transferred to my new Catholic school in 3rd grade. . I was this boy's age. After learning about the different sins I was TERRIFIED to commit a mortal sin! I had it in my head that if I did one of those things I would NEVER be allowed into heaven and God would hate me forever. This was a HUGE thing for all of us at that age, attending the Catholic school and Catholic mass!

Now, read this:

"The boy “took his religious faith very seriously,” said Sister Angelina Chavez, who has known him since he was a baby and taught his religious class every Monday at St. Johns Catholic Church."

(resource: The New York Times By SOLOMON MOORE
Published: November 12, 2008
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/13/us/13child.html?pagewanted=2&fta=y )

I'm SCREAMING it NOW..."THE BOY DID NOT DO IT!":ohmy:

[FDInLaw]

The ABC15 news lady is real mad. She wanted to see the site. She was too late.Good. :biggrin:

[Hawk]

The ABC15 news lady is real mad. She wanted to see the site. She was too late.

Why would a professional journalist not know how to access the web? Why does she need the help of amateur posters on a discussion board?
No journalism Pulitzer in her future! Didn't she study Bernstein and Woodward?

[FDInLaw]

Why would a professional journalist not know how to access the web? Why does she need the help of amateur posters on a discussion board?
No journalism Pulitzer in her future! Didn't she study Bernstein and Woodward?

You would be surprised at what comes out on message boards. . .

[Hawk]

Ever heard of Internet Investigations?

I didn't think so.

If ABC15 doesn't have those resource personnel in house they are behind times by about 15 years. If this is their best outsourcing for information that's pitiful.

[mrrogers]

#461 01-19-2009, 04:20 AM
eagargal
Registered User Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1

*sigh* I grew up in the White Mountains and knew the Romeros. Many of you feel that this boy couldn’t have carried out this crime. You are peering and prying into the lives of the victims’ families and devising ever more fantastic scenarios in which they were somehow responsible for this tragedy. In the spirit of fairness, I feel you should consider the kid’s mother’s family as well:

Eryn Thomas’ father, Russell G Thomas passed away in 2005 at the age of 48. He had been a guest of the State of AZ a few times, most notably for sexual abuse and assault in 2002:

http://www.supreme.state.az.us/publi...nty%20Superior

http://www.zwire.com/site/index.cfm?...d=505965&rfi=8

Eryn’s brother (Russell G Thomas, Jr) and sister (Taryn Dawn Thomas), uncle Jesse James Thomas and cousin Jesse Jr. have been in and out of jail for various traffic infractions, disorderly conduct, assault, DUI and contributing to the delinquency of a minor. You can find their numerous cases on:

http://www.supreme.state.az.us/publi...ion/search.asp

My point being, if you’re looking for unsavory characters, you’ve got to look at all sides. It was fairly common knowledge that Eryn grew up wild and continued on. There was no mother around that I’m aware of. Eryn gave up this kid, not necessarily because she was young and poor and VR took advantage of that fact, but because she didn’t want to be a mom. I think she probably loved him but didn’t want the day-to-day experience of raising children. Also, with her upbringing I’m not sure she knew how to be a mom. Kids who know that their moms don’t want them carry a lot of anger.

Also, if you recall the testimony of the custody hearing, Eryn was living with a boyfriend in a trailer in Springerville with no utilities. She was already done with her 2nd marriage to B Bloomfield, apparently. Do you really feel that this was a better environment for the child? At best it screams irresponsibility, at worse selfishness and indifference towards her child. Even if you disregard the lack of running water and electricity, I feel it is very damaging for a child to see a varying stream of men waltzing through their mother’s bedroom door (here’s another unpleasant visual: It was a travel trailer; maybe there wasn’t a bedroom door…). Personally, I would never let my kids see a beau until I had a ring and a marriage license.

I believe the child’s most stable and loving environment was with his father and his extended family. I believe the kid started acting out because he was threatened by his father’s marriage. He didn’t see the addition of Tiffany as a plus; he felt that he was losing his father’s undivided attention. The addition of TR to the household was probably viewed as more competition for his father’s attention. His parents started disciplining him for not respecting the family unit, thinking he would grow out of it. He didn’t.

I think that the fact the grandparents and Tif have not spoken out in defense of CR’s innocence speaks volumes. This is a beloved grandson, the only son of their only son. I don’t believe they have “thrown him under the bus”, I feel that they have determined that he is guilty and are devastated and don’t know how to react. Many of you are projecting your feelings and experiences with your own children into this case, how would you react to your grandson if you knew that he had killed your son? How would you react to your stepson if all evidence lead you to believe that he had killed your husband? Give these folks a break; there is a lot of hurt going on.

I know it’s “Mayberry”, but do you really think the SJPD wanted to charge an 8-year-old? They are not that creative. I do believe they botched the interrogation, but out of shock and horror, not malice.

Regarding the blog site, please note that it was authored by the wife of VR’s cousin, not Tiffany. I would agree that it seems to be in poor taste, but how do you know that those three shots weren’t the only 3 seconds that they could coax a smile out of Tiffany? Some of you were quick to point out the she had red eyes and speculated the redness might be due to drug use, did it ever occur to you she might have been crying? I’ve noted there is one poster here who has been spreading the tale on many blogs that she took off her ring and took back her maiden name. Since he/she is the only one I’ve heard this from, I would take it with a grain of salt.

By the way, Dr. Philip Keen is the former chief medical examiner of Maricopa County, not the state. He is now the chief medical examiner of Yavapai County.

I applaud all of your efforts and discussion. It is rather exhausting. I leave you to draw your own conclusions, this is JMHO




************************wow*********************** ***

Very interesting read.

.................................................. .................
http://www.supreme.state.az.us/publicaccess/notification/partylist.asp?id=
heres a list of stuff for jj thomas all it is is stuff like wearing no seat belt or not paying bills ,issuing bad check charge was dropped

[Hawk]

You would be surprised at what comes out on message boards. . .

I'm not saying boards aren't worth looking at. But it shouldn't be a main source for primary information from the Internet. Sounds lazy to me. Even if she's a freelancer and not on the payroll.

[mrrogers]

I mentioned something the other day and no one responded, but in light of the new information that could point to a 2-shooter theory:

Is it possible that there may have been a 2nd shooter that went into Tim's truck looking for something? It has always bothered me that the passenger side door was open. Was Tim driving or was Vince? It was Tim's truck right? Didn't some people see them leaving work and wave to them? Who was driving?

Did they check the car door for prints? What if they were looking for drugs or something else and were after something in that car? They could have been searching the car from the passenger side when the other shooter came out of the house, saw the boy and said "let's get out of here!"

I don't know how significant this could be, but that door being open has always bugged me.

............................................
vinny and tim were on the way to help a neighbor vinny was passenger just ran in the house to get something he just didnt shut his door is all that tells me

[Hawk]

FYI, cops, investigators and others are paid to watch for things on the internet. That's a fact. :wink:

I understand that. Key word being paid.

[ChildsVOICE]

Did you notice that the chest wounds were at a downward angle? Both of them. Makes me wonder if there wasn't one headshot first and he collapsed to his knees or somebody made him get on his knees.

Could he have been ducking down in a defensive manner to try to avoid the shots until he got somewhere under cover? Would that explain the downward angles to the chest? I'm out of my element on the medical terms.

[Crispy]

Could he have been ducking down in a defensive manner to try to avoid the shots until he got somewhere under cover? Would that explain the downward angles to the chest? I'm out of my element on the medical terms.

I think the downward direction on the chest shots was from the bullet deflecting off the ribs

[FDInLaw]

I got the photo of Nicole. Thank you for your support.
Are you a reporter??? help a newbie out. . . I haven't had a chance to read everything.

[Cherishlove]

I figured somone might ask that. I, and my younger sister, are both Christians. They would rather he went to strangers. He's been adopted by his foster family.I glad he was adopted, I would of taken him in a heartbeat and showed him the love he desearves. I'm sorry you didn't get him, I hope he is happy now.

[FDInLaw]

:lol: :lol: . . . :biggrin:

[Crispy]

The urine test results from Tim Romans is not in the autopsy report. It skips right over that page.

[Cherishlove]

There are thousands more out there.

Here's just one.

This young lady is a cute as can be. She needs a family to adopt her so she can have a liver transplant. At the bottom of the page you can click on the link to see her picture.

Below is the information on a beautiful child that needs a home. For
her it could be a matter of life & death. If you can help, please
contact her case worker.

Photolisting Profile for Heather
Heather
Age:16
Gender:F
State:Pennsylvania

Favorites List: Add to Favorites
Finalize: Submit Favorites List
Search: Pennsylvania Children Return To Results New Search

Description
Heather is a beautiful young lady who loves being around people. She
enjoys swimming, playing volleyball, scrapbooking, reading and
watching movies. Her favorite television show is "CSI.� Heather
also enjoys spending time with her friends and she demonstrates great
leadership skills among her peers. Her favorite foods are Chinese and
carnival food. Heather plans to attend college where she wants to
pursue a career in the medical field. Heather describes herself as
trustworthy and expects the same from others. She would do best in a
family where she is the only child or one of two children. She would
love to find her forever family that will love and accept her as
their own. Heather would do well in a structured, loving and
supportive family environment. On 9/14/06, Heather was diagnosed with
autoimmune hepatitis, a disease in which the body's immune system
attacks liver cells. This causes the liver to become inflamed. The
disease is usually quite serious and, if not treated, gets worse over
time. Heather receives routine medical care at Hershey Medical Center
and the Children's Hospital of Pittsburgh. She is currently on the
list for a liver transplant, although doctors will not complete the
transplant unless Heather has a family who is willing to support her
during the transplant and recovery. It is crucial that Heather finds
her permanent family as soon as possible so that she can get the
treatment that she so desperately needs. All families will be
considered for Heather. She is legally free for adoption.

More information about adopting Heather

http://photolisting.adoption.com/foster-adoption/children/heather-16481Yes there are so many children that need help, thanks for the information.

[Perplexed1]

I glad he was adopted, I would of taken him in a heartbeat and showed him the love he desearves. I'm sorry you didn't get him, I hope he is happy now.

Thank you.

Check your PM

[mrrogers]

Are things ever left off the evidence list intentionally - things that they share among themselves but just don't want the public to know? Or should things like the keys and bullet types be there for sure.
probably just ignorance but believe me people in that area will screw ya.
if anyone knows who did this there is very little chance of them coming forward. i dont know what it is but it starts about snowflake az and goes south.
the way this whole thing is playing out makes the hair standup on the back of my neck,suggesting a coverup. and before you ask why i say this ive lived in this aread for over thirty years and theres a lot of weird people up here. kinda like those groups of people who are all gung ho on camo and high powered weapons and live in compounds

[Jacobtk]

There are thousands more out there.

Here's just one.

Speaking as a former foster child and someone who still lives with my last foster parents (who take in at-risk children) I seriously hope Heather has not languished in foster care because of her medical condition. I know quite a few people are unwilling to adopt anyone who needs physical or emotional treatment.

[Jacobtk]

Here's an 8 year old boy that clearly doesn't understand death [...] I think this child and the boy charged are vastly different even though both are chronologically eight years old.

I doubt the boys are developmentally different. This sounds consistent with an 8 year old's inability to understand death. Speaking of which, as I thought about how the police described the boy's lack of emotion, it occurred to me that their description matches disassociation. When a person experiences a traumatic event, they sometimes shut off their emotions in order to not be overwhelmed. This is particularly true with children. If one were to assume Neckels' and Avila's claim that they thought the boy had witnessed the shootings, that would explain his flat demeanor.

I have witnessed members of my family and some of the foster children I have been around do this and I have been told that when I do it my demeanor is so indifferent that I come across like a drone. Again, that seems to match what the police claimed they saw.

[Hawk]

probably just ignorance but believe me people in that area will screw ya.
if anyone knows who did this there is very little chance of them coming forward. i dont know what it is but it starts about snowflake az and goes south.
the way this whole thing is playing out makes the hair standup on the back of my neck,suggesting a coverup. and before you ask why i say this ive lived in this aread for over thirty years and theres a lot of weird people up here. kinda like those groups of people who are all gung ho on camo and high powered weapons and live in compounds

What's the general consensus among people you know in that area regarding the guilt or innocence of the boy? How do they feel about the new Apache County Attorney?

[GentleBreeze]

Case Number: M-0341-CR-2003000388 Case Category: Criminal Case Title: ST OF AZ VS DEVALL TIFFANY A
Court: Flagstaff Municipal Judge: None Filing Date: 02/04/2003 Disposition Date: 03/10/2003

Party Name: TIFFANY A DEVALL Party Type: D 1 - DEFNDT/RESPNDT Date of Birth: 06/21/1978
Citation: C00094321 Count 1: LOCAL CHARGE Disposition Date: 03/10/2003 Disposition: OTHER DISMISSAL W/O PREJUDICE
Count 2: LOCAL CHARGE Disposition Date: 03/10/2003 Disposition: OTHER DISMISSAL W/O PREJUDICE



Event Date Event Description Party
3/10/2003 ORDR DISMSSL/CHRGE-W/O PREJDCE D 1
2/28/2003 PRETRIAL HEARING D 1
2/12/2003 CAL: PRE-TRIAL CONFERENCE D 1
2/12/2003 CAL: NON-JURY TRIAL D 1
2/4/2003 COMPLAINT FILED-UNIFORM CITATN D 1

Note the date. Same day her sister was arrested for Meth.

What was the charge?

It says that it was dismissed without prejudice.

Has she been convicted of anything or charged with another offense?

What offenses does the Municipal Court handle? Would a "citation" be a traffic offense?

imo

[Crispy]

What was the charge?

It says that it was dismissed without prejudice.

Has she been convicted of anything or charged with another offense?

What offenses does the Municipal Court handle? Would a "citation" be a traffic offense?

imo


I think if it was traffic, it would say it in the case category spot. Others do

[Hawk]

I would just like to mention to those that may belittle the relevance of a message board like this, that the Romans family spokesman expressed doubt about the boys guilt after reading this VERT SITE!!!

No one is belittling message boards.

[Hawk]

Michael Peterson case. Prosecutors admitted getting ideas from this message board.

Scott Peterson case had people hired to watch for stealth jurors, among other things on this site.

The list goes on, but who cares what any one of them thinks, as long as things are getting done. :cool:

Sorry to have touched a nerve.
'As long as things are getting done' is certainly the objective. I hope everyone keeps up the good work.

[GentleBreeze]

I think if it was traffic, it would say it in the case category spot. Others do

I would have thought it would state what the offense was no matter what it was.

Anyway, it was dismissed. I just have never heard the word "citation" used except in traffic related cases. A "citation" makes me think it was a "ticket" of some sort.



imo

[ChildsVOICE]

I've created a petition for little Child Romero's release into his mother's custody and/or other family members deemed responsible by the DA and the boy's Guardian Ad Litem. Read the entire petition at:

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/help-release-9-year-old-child-romero

Let's see if this works!

Legal Eagles, Give me your feedback on the wording. Got any ideas, let me know.

Thanks!

[GentleBreeze]

drunk and disorderly conduct, disturbing the peace, DWI, are those citations??

You came to the wrong one to ask that, Iam.:laugh: I haven't had but one ticket in my life and that was for running a yellow light that turned red... in the 80s.

But it may have been a DUI or disturbing the peace, I guess.

imoo

[Cherishlove]

I've created a petition for little Child Romero's release into his mother's custody and/or other family members deemed responsible by the DA and the boy's Guardian Ad Litem. Read the entire petition at:

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/help-release-9-year-old-child-romero

Let's see if this works!

Legal Eagles, Give me your feedback on the wording. Got any ideas, let me know.

Thanks!That is wonderful, thank you. I just signed it.

[Hawk]

I've created a petition for little Child Romero's release into his mother's custody and/or other family members deemed responsible by the DA and the boy's Guardian Ad Litem. Read the entire petition at:

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/help-release-9-year-old-child-romero

Let's see if this works!

Legal Eagles, Give me your feedback on the wording. Got any ideas, let me know.

Thanks!

I signed too, and left a comment, then forwarded it to many others.

[Crispy]

I signed and I'm gonna pass it on!

[Hawk]

If you really want to prove the power of discussion boards here's the chance! Let's get the thousand signers and more.
There's seven signers already from seven different states!

[ChildsVOICE]

If you really want to prove the power of discussion boards here's the chance! Let's get the thousand signers and more.
There's seven signers already from seven different states!

Thanks Everybody! Keep forwarding! Yeah!:thumbsup::biggrin:

[Dallasnc]

If you really want to prove the power of discussion boards here's the chance! Let's get the thousand signers and more.
There's seven signers already from seven different states!

I'm North Carolina.

[mrrogers]

What is up with Tim he had both atherosclerosis and CPOD. That is very odd for a person of only 35. He must have smoked like 3 packs a day and eaten every bad thing known to man. IMO

with the problems he had i doubt he had more than another 5 years

[Hawk]

Can the link be posted in the comments section of the AZ news sites under their articles? Might be good to have a few hundred (or thousand) Arizona citizens sign.

[Perplexed1]

with the problems he had i doubt he had more than another 5 years

Indians aren't the healthiest people. My dad died early, as well as his dad. We had many birth defects in our Indian family. Too much in-breeding? Plus unhealthy habits. IMO

[mrrogers]

what can i say about you your awesome!! i pray it works for the little boy. it gave me great pleasure to sign my name to it. thanks again

unless the judge thinks it ok it wont happen i dont think
this judge SEEMSto be cutting the boy every break he can