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PensiveOne

01-17-2009, 07:39 PM

Here's my last post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamithink http://boards.insessiontrials.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?p=12669258#post12669258)
is there or has there been a test conducted to determine if someone could hear a child's voice in that manner? If someone can hear someone else in the back ground the test should also demonstrate how far the person had to be before they were not audibale. Sometimes if someone is talking to me on my cell and they are riding with someone or in the same room with someone, the other person can say something and I can barely hear them, can't make out what they say either. and that's when they are with the person I'm talking to. needs to be a test done.

You know the other day I was talking to my son while he was on his cell phone. He had to go out to his car to get something and smoke a cigarette. I heard kids in the background and I said, "who's that?" It was my grandaughter, whom I know very well, but I couldn't tell for sure. Also, he turned his radio on immediately. It made me think of this case. I wonder if Tim had his radio on and if he did how could she hear the child at all?
__________________
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts."
Albert Einstein

GentleBreeze

01-17-2009, 07:43 PM

GentleBreeze
Registered User Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Nestled In Southern Hospitality
Posts: 10,031

Quote:
Originally Posted by bkwits
Yes, except for the shot through the screen door which was from behind him.

He didn't FREEZE in place. He ran or moved. The natural instinct is to run or seek cover. If I know that most people who are hunters and used to gun would drop to the ground or run from the gunfire. In the school shootings even the kids run or drop to the floor.

I think it is naive to believe that Tim would freeze. Are you sure you've been raised around guns? {Quote}

I think he was totally confused. I don't think he saw the shooter or where he was, while he was shooting at him. We are only talking about 24 feet to decide. 24 feet and then in seconds he is hit again.

Maybe he was trying to run across the yard to the left side of the house in the front so he would be up against the wall of the house and not in the killer's view.

Please don't try to be coy, bkwts. Yes. I was raised around guns but I have never been in a position where I was being fired upon or anyone else I know, for that matter. If I had though and only had 24 feet to decide what to do, I would most likely be as dead as Romans is. If a person hits the ground then they are even more vulnerable. Then the victim is down and all the person has to do, that has the weapon, is walk closer and shoot.

His body may not have froze but imo his mind was very delayed due to the very stressful attack of being shot at multiple times.

But God forbid, if he was like others who have gone through a hail of bullets, trying to help someone, they thought was in dire need. If, it was this boy that truly coaxed him to his death under the pretense he needed help then that is just too heartbreaking to even think about.

ETA:
The shot that went into the metal screen door was the one that grazed his head when he was already laying on the porch dying imo.

imoo

Jacobtk

01-17-2009, 07:49 PM

You know the other day I was talking to my son while he was on his cell phone. He had to go out to his car to get something and smoke a cigarette. I heard kids in the background and I said, "who's that?" It was my grandaughter, whom I know very well, but I couldn't tell for sure. Also, he turned his radio on immediately. It made me think of this case. I wonder if Tim had his radio on and if he did how could she hear the child at all?

What I find more interesting is that Tanya apparently only met the boy once. It seems unlikely that she would recognize his voice after just one meeting. However, assuming the boy was not the shooter, but Tanya did hear someone call Tim's name, it is possible someone faked being the boy. Not very likely, but certainly possible that someone could raise the pitch of their voice to sound like a child and if familiar with the boy perhaps even match it. Admittedly, that seems like a stretch.

PensiveOne

01-17-2009, 07:54 PM

I want to talk about the crack head theory! Where is Hawk? I think one was in the car and one was in the house. TR and VR got home and VR got attacked as he went up the stairs. TR heard the "commotion" and the other guy started chasing him towards the house, but only wounds him in the arm. When TR tried to open the door the one that was in the house shoots him. Or the one that was in the car surprises him via the passenger door and he makes a run for it towards the house and then the second one shoots him in the arm, but he doesn't know where he is. He makes it to the door but is gunned down there. Then they finish him off with the head shots. I think he was trying to open the door and that is why one of the shots ends up in the door. The shooter was tracking his head as he fell and the door got in his way.

So Hawk, how about two crack heads, who were either surprised by VR and TR or were paid some cheap amount to take out TR with a promise of insurance money?

PensiveOne

01-17-2009, 07:57 PM

What I find more interesting is that Tanya apparently only met the boy once. It seems unlikely that she would recognize his voice after just one meeting. However, assuming the boy was not the shooter, but Tanya did hear someone call Tim's name, it is possible someone faked being the boy. Not very likely, but certainly possible that someone could raise the pitch of their voice to sound like a child and if familiar with the boy perhaps even match it. Admittedly, that seems like a stretch.

Tanya is my number one suspect. She had the strongest motive. I think she had all night to try to pin it on the boy. She knew he was there, because the guys (she hired) were in the white car and they told her about the boy seeing them. At least that my favorite theory now:)

GentleBreeze

01-17-2009, 07:59 PM

I think the shot that grazed his head was the first shot to him. If he was already on the ground and the shot was the one that went through the security door, the person who shot him would have been behind him, or to his side. This shot was not one that was described as being close range.

I respect your opinion but I do not agree. I think the first shot to Romans was most likely the forearm shot from 24 feet away followed by the chest shots. I think the head shots were done when he was already down on the porch with his head up against the screen door. It is very consistent with the bullet hole in the metal door frame down at the bottom, that this is the one that grazed his head. The shooter more than likely misjudged because Tim had his knit cap on.

I think the shooter stepped out on the left side of the home behind the bushes that were right at the porch when the two head shots were fired and possibly when he fired the chest shots. I think he was standing inside the home when he shot into his forearm.The final head shot was when the shooter walked up very close to him, less than 2 feet imo and fired.

IMO tho

PensiveOne

01-17-2009, 08:00 PM

maybe someone met the two at the house and was the killer. that's why Tanya heard someone. Perhaps someone that Tim didn't want Tanya to know who they were because she wouldn't approve. That person killed them for revenge of something and left. They may have had someone else with them too. That's why the boy said he saw the white car drive away really fast and he saw someone going into the house. Could that person have been in the camper/mobile home in the back? the person ran out the back and hid??

It's as plausible as any other theory right now:wink:

PensiveOne

01-17-2009, 08:09 PM

her mother owns a white car. officer Jones took photos of it when they went to her house in San Carlos.

I think it was TR's Mom, does her mother have a white car, too? I wonder if it had hubcaps on the wheels:thumbup:

Jacobtk

01-17-2009, 08:12 PM

her mother owns a white car. officer Jones took photos of it when they went to her house in San Carlos.

It would have been helpful if they had shown the picture to the boy before they arrested him so he could rule it out.

PensiveOne

01-17-2009, 08:16 PM

It would have been helpful if they had shown the picture to the boy before they arrested him so he could rule it out.

Aw, come on...why would they do that? They were never going to look for the white car. They didn't want to ask logical, investigative type questions. That would mess everything up! They already had their man:rolleyes:

PensiveOne

01-17-2009, 08:18 PM

that's right. sorry,it was Tim's mom's car. I'm not saying she drove it to SJ's and killed the men. they described her as elderly.

Well no, but somebody could have borrowed it. I sure would like to see those cell phone calls.

Jacobtk

01-17-2009, 08:18 PM

Aw, come on...why would they do that? They were never going to look for the white car. They didn't want to ask logical, investigative type questions. That would mess everything up! They already had their man:rolleyes:

Honestly, looking at how this was handled, I am willing to bet Adam West dressed in his Batman suit could have done a better job of actually investigating this crime.

PensiveOne

01-17-2009, 08:21 PM

:lol:Honestly, looking at how this was handled, I am willing to bet Adam West dressed in his Batman suit could have done a better job of actually investigating this crime.:lol:

bkwits

01-17-2009, 08:22 PM

Honestly, looking at how this was handled, I am willing to bet Adam West dressed in his Batman suit could have done a better job of actually investigating this crime.

Oh absolutelly, or Spiderman, OR Jessica Fletcher. :wink:

GentleBreeze

01-17-2009, 08:24 PM

then where is the bullet they didn't find???

I am not sure. I would think since the screen door was metal it fragmented the tiny bullet and pieces went here and there.

imoo

PensiveOne

01-17-2009, 08:26 PM

IIRC, the police took notice of the "white" car when they pulled up to her house.

Did Tanya drive? What kind of car?

How close were Tanya and Tiffany? Would one inform the other if her husband was cheating?

Too many questions and not enough of an investigation to answer them.:angry:
I read somewhere that Tanya did not like Tiffany. I can't remember where, though. One of those "other" blogs I think:)

bkwits

01-17-2009, 08:30 PM

I read somewhere that Tanya did not like Tiffany. I can't remember where, though. One of those "other" blogs I think:)

I think that I read something like that too.

PensiveOne

01-17-2009, 08:32 PM

but wouldn't the police have taken the pieces if there were any? Tim's head is at the door. wouldn't the pieces be either around his head or behind the door?

I don't think they were looking for another bullet until after the autopsy. By that time if it had splintered the splinters could have been kicked anywhere.

GentleBreeze

01-17-2009, 08:33 PM

from Guinn's report who was attending the autopsy and took photos:
The fifth wound noted was a single entry wound from a single gunshot that struck Romans on the
back of the head, on the right side. This round fragmented inside the head. A sixth wound was observed in
Romans' head. This round was discharged at close range resulting in tearing of the skin at the entry wound, . and resulting in what was described as a "keyhole" wound. This round fragmented inside the skull.
Fragments from these rounds were recovered from inside the head.

This is the only shot he specifically states as being close range.

Right, there wasn't but one close range shot to Romans and I think that was the final shot. But close up shots are less than 2 or 2.5 feet. So the shooter could have fired the other shots to the head a little over 2 and a half feet away. While that is not called close range by the ME imo it is still very close up to the victim. It just wasn't close enough to tear the skin.

imoo

GentleBreeze

01-17-2009, 08:36 PM

but wouldn't the police have taken the pieces if there were any? Tim's head is at the door. wouldn't the pieces be either around his head or behind the door?

If they could find them but the fragments once it splattered after hitting and passing through the door could have been tiny minute pieces.

A .22 bullet is a small bullet to start off with even when it is in tacted.

imo

GentleBreeze

01-17-2009, 08:41 PM

look at the photo with Tim on the ground. His feet appear to be at the end of the porch and his head at the door. someone may have been behind the ivy on the column thing (can't remember what you call those things) and shot him in the head.

That is what I think. The shooter stepped out and hid behind the ivy bushes where Tim couldn't exactly detect where the gunfire was coming from.

It just seems to me he tried to come up to the house so he could press himself up against the wall of the home thinking the gunfire was coming from the front door. Wasn't his truck found more directly in front but his body is left of the open door?

imoo

GentleBreeze

01-17-2009, 08:46 PM

wasn't his head closer than 2 or 2.5 feet to the door?

Yes, it was right up against the door that opened to the left and would be right at his head.

But he still was shot less than 2.5 feet away. That only means wherever the shooter stood the barrel of the gun was less than 2.5 feet away from his head when they fired.

I think they were standing on the porch behind the ivy bushes and then stepped closer and fired the final close up shot.

imo

PensiveOne

01-17-2009, 08:48 PM

That is what I think. The shooter stepped out and hid behind the ivy bushes where Tim couldn't exactly detect where the gunfire was coming from.

It just seems to me he tried to come up to the house so he could press himself up against the wall of the home thinking the gunfire was coming from the front door. Wasn't his truck found more directly in front but his body is left of the open door?

imoo

I think his body was kind of cockeyed, with his feet pointed towards the driveway and his head was on the doormat. When the police arrived the door was open 6-8 inches and his head was in between the screen door and the threshold. At some point Guinn had actually move the body after he took pictures and videos, before the mortician showed up. He must have moved it over so they could get into the house more easily.

GentleBreeze

01-17-2009, 08:51 PM

I don't think they were looking for another bullet until after the autopsy. By that time if it had splintered the splinters could have been kicked anywhere.

I have wondered if the tiny fragments may have fallen down into the metal door frame.

imoo

PensiveOne

01-17-2009, 08:54 PM

I have wondered if the tiny fragments may have fallen down into the metal door frame.

imoo

I wondered that, too. They thought the crease on the back of his head was from that bullet, but it may have only been from part of it. Some police would have taken the door as evidence, but they didn't.

PensiveOne

01-17-2009, 08:55 PM

I have wondered if the tiny fragments may have fallen down into the metal door frame.

imoo

Oh, you mean the frame. Yeah, that is possible, too.

GentleBreeze

01-17-2009, 09:06 PM

I think his body was kind of cockeyed, with his feet pointed towards the driveway and his head was on the doormat. When the police arrived the door was open 6-8 inches and his head was in between the screen door and the threshold. At some point Guinn had actually move the body after he took pictures and videos, before the mortician showed up. He must have moved it over so they could get into the house more easily.

Do you have a link that says he was found between the threshold and the metal door instead of on the outside of the door? I don't remember that. Thanks in advance if you have that info handy, if not I will try to track it down myself.

I believe this was before they moved the body, PO. You can see he is at an angle with his head close to the door. His head is on the outside of the door frame. . It is consistent to me with the bullet hole in the metal screen door that he was on the outside of the door on the porch not between the screen and the threshold. LE said the bullet hole went from the outside to the inside metal door frame. It lines up with where his head would have been imo.

But maybe I am getting confused. Are you saying he was down right at the threshold and the shooter stepped out came around the door and shot through the metal door from the outside ...in.... at his head and missed only grazing his head?

imoo

IMO

GentleBreeze

01-17-2009, 09:11 PM

Oh, you mean the frame. Yeah, that is possible, too.

Yes,thats what I mean......... the metal door frame track that seems to be a catch all for everything. I am constantly cleaning my metal door frames at the bottom because so much seems to get trapped in them and some of it is almost impossible to get out.:smile:

imoo

PensiveOne

01-17-2009, 09:16 PM

Do you have a link that says he was found between the threshold and the metal door instead of on the outside of the door? I don't remember that. Thanks in advance if you have that info handy, if not I will try to track it down myself.

I believe this was before they moved the body, PO. You can see he is at an angle with his head close to the door. His head is on the outside of the door frame. . It is consistent to me with the bullet hole in the metal screen door that he was on the outside of the door on the porch not between the screen and the threshold. LE said the bullet hole went from the outside to the inside metal door frame. It lines up with where his head would have been imo.

But maybe I am getting confused. Are you saying he was down right at the threshold and the shooter stepped out came around the door and shot through the metal door from the outside ...in.... at his head and missed only grazing his head?

imoo

IMO

I think it is in Guinn's report. I think the shooter that shot through the door was on Tim's left and was tracking his head as he was falling while he had the door open trying to get into the house. The door moved as Tim fell and the shooter accidently shot through the door. Or the shooter could have been holding the door open with his foot after Tim fell and the door slipped and he shot the door then.

PensiveOne

01-17-2009, 09:20 PM

Here is the link to Guinn's report:

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/Guinn.pdf

Good_Gawd

01-17-2009, 09:24 PM

Oh absolutelly, or Spiderman, OR Jessica Fletcher. :wink:

:lol::lol:

Good_Gawd

01-17-2009, 09:27 PM

I think it is in Guinn's report. I think the shooter that shot through the door was on Tim's left and was tracking his head as he was falling while he had the door open trying to get into the house. The door moved as Tim fell and the shooter accidently shot through the door. Or the shooter could have been holding the door open with his foot after Tim fell and the door slipped and he shot the door then.

He went a long way with 4 or 5 shots in him.

PensiveOne

01-17-2009, 09:27 PM

this is totally not what your talking about , but i feel like a dope asking .i am wondering if they are throwing out the confession then why is he still there? are they keeping him there under protective custody? i don't have degrees in law, no hunting experience like a lot of you out there. i am just a mother of an 9 year old boy and just don't understand why they are still holding this little boy.it blows my mind when i read about st.johns. "the town of friendly neighbors" the town that takes pride in a close-knit, family first attitude that cares deeply about its residents and guests. is that some kind of joke? it also says come visit for a day and you'll decide st.johns is an excellent choice for a better life. they can't be serious, espically how they are and have been treating this little boy. arizona looks like a beautiful state, but i doubt if i would ever step in to the town of st. johns if i ever would it would be only to support this little boy and his family.

The judge hasn't really ruled on whether the confession is out or not. But both lawyers have motions about it, the prosecutor, who is willing to not use it, and the defense lawyer who wants it thrown out. The judge will make the final decision. They have other evidence, although I think it is circumstantial, at least what we know now. They are holding the boy because they think he did the shooting, not for protective custody. It is a very sad case. He is still there because the judge hasn't ruled on anything, yet. There is also a special action that was put in by the prosecutor that they are waiting on. Once, they get the ruling on the special action from the appeals court, then things will start moving along again. Unless they find some evidence that exonerates the boy or incriminates somebody else he will most likely stay where he is. The judge could let him out on furlough though, but he won't be free until some decisions are made.

PensiveOne

01-17-2009, 09:30 PM

He went a long way with 4 or 5 shots in him.

What do you mean?

GentleBreeze

01-17-2009, 09:31 PM

Here is the link to Guinn's report:

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/Guinn.pdf

Thank you so much. I will go read it now.

imoo

PensiveOne

01-17-2009, 09:35 PM

Thank you so much. I will go read it now.

imoo

I think we are saying the same thing. Maybe, I am not describing it well:)

GentleBreeze

01-17-2009, 09:38 PM

Here is the link to Guinn's report:

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/Guinn.pdf

Ok Guinn stated that Romans head was in front of the screen door and there was blood pooling around his head. This is when Guinn arrived and how he first saw the body.

That is my interpretation of it anyway.

imoo

PensiveOne

01-17-2009, 09:39 PM

thanks. i know it is a very sad. i've contacted who i thought could help and wrote letters, but i feel so helpless now that all i can do is pray for him. whether he did it or not i feel he doesn't need to be locked up like he is.

There are lots of good people trying to help the little boy. I am praying for him, too.

PensiveOne

01-17-2009, 09:42 PM

Ok Guinn stated that Romans head was in front of the screen door and there was blood pooling around his head. This is when Guinn arrived and how he first saw the body.

That is my interpretation of it anyway.

imoo

From Guinn's report:
The screen door was open approximately six to eight inches, resting against Romans' head.

That to me means the screen door was open about 6-8 inches and Tim's head was between the screen door and the threshold. Plus, the boy said when he went into the house the door had hit Tim's head. The only way that could happen was because he had opened it and then it shut again on Tim's head.

At least that is how I am reading it.

GentleBreeze

01-17-2009, 09:44 PM

I think we are saying the same thing. Maybe, I am not describing it well:)

I am tired..........so it is probably me. What threw me was his head was between the threshold and the inside of the screen. IMO his head had to be on the outside of the screen since the shot that went into the screen was from the outside to the inside metal door frame at the bottom.

LOL! Maybe I need a strong cup of coffee.:wink:

imoo

GentleBreeze

01-17-2009, 09:50 PM

From Guinn's report:
The screen door was open approximately six to eight inches, resting against Romans' head.

That to me means the screen door was open about 6-8 inches and Tim's head was between the screen door and the threshold. Plus, the boy said when he went into the house the door had hit Tim's head. The only way that could happen was because he had opened it and then it shut again on Tim's head.

At least that is how I am reading it.

:tonguewag: Isn't it amazing how two can see things so differently?

To me Guinn says that Romans' head was found in front of the metal screen, not behind it or between the threshold and the door.

If the door opens to the left and Romans head rested right up at the screen door the boy would have opened the door and it would have been back against Tims head so he could get in. If he was already in between the screen door and the threshold then the door would have had to be already open to compensate for his head and shoulders being between the door. :biggrin:

LOL That is how I interpret it.

imoo

PensiveOne

01-17-2009, 09:51 PM

Well g'night all. I have to get up early and I got up early this morning, so I am tired, too. Keep up all the good dialogue.:seeya:

PensiveOne

01-17-2009, 09:54 PM

:tonguewag: Isn't it amazing how two can see things so differently?

To me Guinn says that Romans' head was found in front of the metal screen, not behind it or between the threshold and the door.

If the door opens to the left and Romans head rested right up at the screen door the boy would have opened the door and it would have been back against Tims head so he could get in. If he was already in between the screen door and the threshold then the door would have had to be already open to compensate for his head and shoulders being between the door. :biggrin:

LOL That is how I interpret it.

imoo

Yeah, I need somebody to show me a picture, or draw me one:)

GentleBreeze

01-17-2009, 09:55 PM

Yeah, I need somebody to show me a picture, or draw me one:)

I know what you mean. Have a good evening and good night, PO.

imoo

Crispy

01-17-2009, 10:01 PM

GentleBreeze

01-17-2009, 10:02 PM

good night all. gotta go watch the new episode of Dr. Who with my husband.

Enjoy!

imoo

PensiveOne

01-17-2009, 10:04 PM

To the left of Tim would put him very close to the driveway, not by the ivy. I really believe there are two shooters. Wouldn't there be a missing shell casing somewhere?
There was a shell casing behind the door. I still really wonder about two shooters. Now I really got to go to bed:biggrin:

GentleBreeze

01-17-2009, 10:07 PM

In one of the hearings someone described it as Romans head was keeping the door open. If his head wasn't there, the door would be shut all the way. That is why I always thought it was funny that the hole was from the outside to the inside. Why would someone shoot through the metal door?

Of course I could have misunderstood.

I don't remember that ever being said but I may have forgotten it. Guinn states his head was found in front of the screen door in the report. I just read.

That would make sense with the shot hitting the screen door from the outside into the inside metal door frame.

His head had to be resting close on the outside of the door so that it blocked the door some when it was opened back toward the left side so the boy could get inside. He had to push it back up against Tims head to squeeze in the door.

imoo

GentleBreeze

01-17-2009, 10:12 PM

There was a shell casing behind the door. I still really wonder about two shooters. Now I really got to go to bed:biggrin:

:biggrin: I think that was probably the first shot fired at Tim and may have been fired right at the entryway and then the shooter stepped outside and used the ivy bushes as a blind so that he couldn't be seen.

Or he may have fired from a few feet back from the door inside the home and then ejected the casing at the threshold, reloaded and then stepped out.

Good night, again.

imoo

Good_Gawd

01-17-2009, 10:16 PM

There was a shell casing behind the door. I still really wonder about two shooters. Now I really got to go to bed:biggrin:

It's only 9:15. You have a bedtime? :lol:

bkwits

01-17-2009, 10:18 PM

There was a shell casing behind the door. I still really wonder about two shooters. Now I really got to go to bed:biggrin:

:seeya: Good night.

bkwits

01-17-2009, 10:21 PM

It's only 9:15. You have a bedtime? :lol:

Some people have a life beyond this board, but not me :drool:

I may be getting a boyfriend. He has big ears and 4 legs and a big nose.

Good_Gawd

01-17-2009, 10:23 PM

Some people have a life beyond this board, but not me :drool:

I may be getting a boyfriend. He has big ears and 4 legs and a big nose.

And some of us don't want a life.

Good_Gawd

01-17-2009, 10:32 PM

I don't remember that ever being said but I may have forgotten it. Guinn states his head was found in front of the screen door in the report. I just read.

That would make sense with the shot hitting the screen door from the outside into the inside metal door frame.

His head had to be resting close on the outside of the door so that it blocked the door some when it was opened back toward the left side so the boy could get inside. He had to push it back up against Tims head to squeeze in the door.

imoo
Show me 3 doors.
The screen door is the security door. Who the heck has both????
imo

GentleBreeze

01-17-2009, 10:38 PM

Show me 3 doors.
The screen door is the security door. Who the heck has both????
imo

Who said anything about three doors?:confused:

They had the main entry door and the metal security screen door.

Cherishlove

01-17-2009, 10:39 PM

thanks. i know it is a very sad. i've contacted who i thought could help and wrote letters, but i feel so helpless now that all i can do is pray for him. whether he did it or not i feel he doesn't need to be locked up like he is.I've been praying for this little boy too he's so young it really has bothered me too.

bkwits

01-17-2009, 10:39 PM

awwwww is his nose wet? Can you ride him or do you walk him?

Walk him. He's a Brittany.

bkwits

01-17-2009, 10:51 PM

Earlier we discussing that these shootings might be from a burglary attempt gone wrong.

There are some crazy stories of burglaries. My parents house was burglarized some years ago. They took my mothers jewelry and some cash in her nightstand (about $100). They overlooked $500 in my dad's nightstand. They carried our a $70 microwave and overlooked a cabinet full of guns in the family room. I don't remember what else they too. My parents were out of town at the time.

I

Cherishlove

01-17-2009, 11:18 PM

It has bothered me too! I am so very disappointed with LE there. This case was not "solved" so I think they are kidding themselves if they think they solved it with the boy and his so called confession. If the boy is innocent (and I believe he is) St. John's has a murderer to locate.

I think of that little boy who lost his dad in the most horrific way. I think of him alone and not having his mom to comfort him and tell him everything will be fine.:crying:

I wish someone in St. John's would do the right thing and re-open the investigation. It's never too late.From what I read on these post the boy's Attorney and the State are still investigating. But what bothered me was after the so called confession the Chief announced "we solved the crime, now we have to find out why" and on wmicentral they announce there new police station stating they solved a Double Homicide? :mad: when in fact it has not been solved at all.

Cherishlove

01-17-2009, 11:21 PM

I take that back they didn't say solved they said sucessfully investigated a Double Homicide????????: and everyone knows that is not true.

Good_Gawd

01-17-2009, 11:27 PM

From what I read on these post the boy's Attorney and the State are still investigating. But what bothered me was after the so called confession the Chief announced "we solved the crime, now we have to find out why" and on wmicentral they announce there new police station stating they solved a Double Homicide? :mad: when in fact it has not been solved at all.

The judge said they all had to keep investigating. I just can't find the hearing he said it at now! :cursing:

bkwits

01-17-2009, 11:28 PM

I take that back they didn't say solved they said sucessfully investigated a Double Homicide????????: and everyone knows that is not true.

The called it a "serious double homicide" like there is any other kind, :crying:

Jacobtk

01-17-2009, 11:34 PM

The called it a "serious double homicide" like there is any other kind, :crying:

There is a George Carlin bit in there somewhere.

bkwits

01-17-2009, 11:44 PM

There is a George Carlin bit in there somewhere.

I thought about that for a minute and you are right. I miss him. :closedeyes:

bkwits

01-18-2009, 12:16 AM

Finally, something we can agree on:thumbup:

Now if you would just get onboard to defend this child, we could really ger along. :biggrin:

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 12:50 AM

shelby77

01-18-2009, 01:15 AM

Going with the random crackhead thief theory for a moment, I think it would be entirely possible that they did find what they wanted, and took it, whether it be from the house, or TR's body (the most likely since his local LE had him pegged as a dealer).
Idk why they would refer to him that way if only in reference to his arrest 20 yrs ago (approx., don't recall exactly when it was off the top of my head).
So it's plausibe it was known by some local St Johns druggies (as he probably had customers there IF he dealt). Who would then rob the house/him for his stash, to use, or maybe to sell himself, who knows. So it may appear nothing was stolen, where was this supposed dealers stash??

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 01:25 AM

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 01:27 AM

ChildsVOICE

01-18-2009, 02:02 AM

this is totally not what your talking about , but i feel like a dope asking .i am wondering if they are throwing out the confession then why is he still there? Are they keeping him there under protective custody? I don't have degrees in law, no hunting experience like a lot of you out there. I am just a mother of an 9 year old boy and just don't understand why they are still holding this little boy.it blows my mind when i read about st.johns. "the town of friendly neighbors" the town that takes pride in a close-knit, family first attitude that cares deeply about its residents and guests. Is that some kind of joke? It also says come visit for a day and you'll decide st.johns is an excellent choice for a better life. They can't be serious, espically how they are and have been treating this little boy. Arizona looks like a beautiful state, but i doubt if i would ever step in to the town of st. Johns if i ever would it would be only to support this little boy and his family.

amen to that!

ChildsVOICE

01-18-2009, 02:14 AM

From Guinn's report:
The screen door was open approximately six to eight inches, resting against Romans' head.

That to me means the screen door was open about 6-8 inches and Tim's head was between the screen door and the threshold. Plus, the boy said when he went into the house the door had hit Tim's head. The only way that could happen was because he had opened it and then it shut again on Tim's head.

At least that is how I am reading it.

Which tells me the little boy is telling the truth that he came home and found the men already down and already shot.

The boy sounded apologetic about "tapping" Tim's head with the door because he said (paraphrased here) I tried not to hit him with the door but I think I tapped his head a little bit when I tried to open the door.(again, paraprased)

This in just one of many statements I picked up on when I heard the boy's statements to police.

Why would a boy explain all that (which matches the crime scene) if he just shot the guy? out of rage? He wouldn't.

He found him, exactly, the way he said, already on the ground.

The boy felt guilty that he had tapped Tim's head with the door. That is not consistent with a ruthless, sociopathic killer who just blew the guy's head to pieces.

ChildsVOICE

01-18-2009, 02:17 AM

To the left of Tim would put him very close to the driveway, not by the ivy. I really believe there are two shooters. Wouldn't there be a missing shell casing somewhere?

You all are beating me to the punch here.

My thoughts, exactly. At least two shooters plus a get-a-way driver.

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 02:29 AM

The 13-year-old Valles was the youngest of 564 Arizona juveniles moved to adult court in 2006. (That may provide perspective on the unlikelihood of that St. Johns boy who was 8 when he allegedly murdered his father and a roomer on November 5 ever being sent to adult court.)

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2009-01-15/news/can-maricopa-county-s-juvenile-justice-system-fix-troubled-teens-rarely-one-judge-laments/

ChildsVOICE

01-18-2009, 02:30 AM

Some people have a life beyond this board, but not me

I may be getting a boyfriend. He has big ears and 4 legs and a big nose.

I'm leaving that one alone!

:blushing::lol:

ChildsVOICE

01-18-2009, 02:35 AM

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 02:36 AM

I'm leaving that one alone!

:blushing::lol:
bkwits cracks me up. :lol:

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 02:40 AM

I'm really divided about whether or not I want to see this go to trial. in a perfect world, no-one would ever have picked on an 8 year old as double murderer. HE DIDN'T DO IT PEOPLE!

I want the child out of custody, out of Az and with his real mother. So, I don't want him to go through a trial. i want him to get a life (and a dog).

On the other hand, I want to let Brewer loose at Melnick, Rodriguez and all the other Mayberry losers who have undetaken this wonderful homicide investigation.

I found a new best friend! :beer:

ChildsVOICE

01-18-2009, 02:49 AM

Which tells me the little boy is telling the truth that he came home and found the men already down and already shot.

The boy sounded apologetic about "tapping" Tim's head with the door because he said (paraphrased here) I tried not to hit him with the door but I think I tapped his head a little bit when I tried to open the door.(again, paraprased)

This in just one of many statements I picked up on when I heard the boy's statements to police.

Why would a boy explain all that (which matches the crime scene) if he just shot the guy? out of rage? He wouldn't.

He found him, exactly, the way he said, already on the ground.

The boy felt guilty that he had tapped Tim's head with the door. That is not consistent with a ruthless, sociopathic killer who just blew the guy's head to pieces.

Plus, he is describing difficulty about trying to open the door. The difficulty being...trying TO OPEN the door while trying NOT to hit Tim's head with it.

So, if he's having all this trouble just trying to get a dang door open then how the HECK did he do all the rest?! Go upstairs, climb over a body, shot two moving adults, inside and outside, upstairs and downstairs, 10 times, execution style....yadah...yadah...yadah...
????!!!!
:confused::huh::thumbdown:

ChildsVOICE

01-18-2009, 02:56 AM

ChildsVOICE

01-18-2009, 04:25 AM

Let's gather all the info we have on the illegal drug problem/operation theory.
(Which has been my top theory since the very beginning.)

Two men shot multiple times each, EXECUTION STYLE.
TR shot 6 times/ the most times.
VR shot 4 times
This indicates TR was the primary target.

Multiple wounds indicate rage, hate, and/or assurance each victim was most certainly dead.

Head and Chest wounds= Execution style

Hitmen carry out execution style murders.

Drug dealers employ their own hitmen or addicts to serve as hitmen.

Because TR had the most wounds, one must look at his profile first.

There are rumors circling around St. Johns that TR had "dealt in Meth".
(Rumors=Red Flag)

Was TR having any previous drug related problems prior to coming to St. Johns?
Reportedly, Yes. Previous drug related charges. Bullet hole in truck from cousin during drug related argument. (Red Flag. Red Flag.)

TR left one area of AZ to move to another a few hrs away.
TR became boarder at age 39 years old (Red Flag).

TR's wife seems surprised and denies talks of divorce yet, lives seperately from TR. (Red Flag) If one had an addiction or dealt illegal drugs that person may want to live away from loved ones to protect them or to hide the addiciton/ business from their loved ones.

There are reports TR was not paying a low $50/week rent to VR even though he was found with 5 $100 bills on his person.
( i.e. Was not paying his debts.) (Red Flag)
Was TR running from a bad debt to a drug dealer back in his home town? or surrounding area? Did he run one up in St. Johns area?

Since he was living with and working with VR and not paying a small rent fee, reportedly, for 3 weeks. This indicates he liked to push the limits on friendship and work relationships. (Red Flag)

TR had extra-marital affairs, reportedly, and details of such really tested the limits of inter-personal relationships.

Did he push the limits a little too far with a drug dealer back in his old home town? or surrounding areas? in St. Johns?

Did either of the bar maids with whom TR had the affairs, have any ex boyfriends who were drug dealers of any significance? enough so to have this crime done out of jealosy? protection of their loved one?

TR just happened to move to the 2nd largest capitol of Meth in all of AZ.
(REd Flag) (See new prosecutor's campaign website).

The crime happened not long after TR left town (hometown that is).
(Red Flag)

TR reckless in behavior. Indicated by extra-marital affairs with two women from the same bar; not paying rent to landlord who he lived with and whom he worked with; bar fights, & more. (Red Flag)

TR was found with 5 $100 bills CASH on his person on a Wednesday.
(Red Flag)

TR reportedly stayed gone from the place he was renting and was supposidely living at, overnight stays several days per week.
(Red Flag in conjunction with these other factors)

Testimony in police record TR left bar with "Candy" and stayed gone for lengthy time period then returned back to bar. Did they leave the bar to use? to make a sale? (Red Flag)

Both Sgt R and Officer Neckles stated that they assumed because of the neighborhood in which they were responding to they thought they were going to find an overdose victim. (Red Flag. Red Flag)

Now VR:

VR has sister-in-law with recent Meth drug related charge to the point it is reported she was found by police using or having used while holding an infant. Court proceedings followed. (Red Flag)

Who was her dealer?

Was the Romero household a target to keep Tiffany's sister quite? to keep her from snitching? to send her a message? out of retaliation for something she'd done? Was Tiffany & boy supposed to be a target, as well?

Whose are the expensive RV and other expensive items that are seen in police photographs? Which man could afford those items? (Red Flag)

There's one man who needs to rent a room at $50 / week. The other man gets a ride to work. (Red flag in conjunction with expensive "toys")

Reports on this board that neither men had house nor vehicle properties in their name. (Red Flag if true)

Was TR &/or VR trying to encroach upon a dealer's business in the St. Johns' area? Did either man do anything for the local dealer(s) to think so?

:sad:

wolfi_2

01-18-2009, 07:09 AM

Cherishlove

01-18-2009, 08:47 AM

I from day one never belived the boy did this, and I so want him out of there and out of that State. I really want his name cleared too I just keep praying everyday for God to watch over him and protect him keep him strong and to find the real killers. Someone wanted those men dead and it was not the little boy. They need to indepthly keep investigating there were so many that had Motive and there lifestyle too, they were living dangerously affair, drugs ect... I just can't believe the Chief after not even a day thought he had it solved??? What makes it hard now is the crime scene has been cleaned up and Step Mom lives back there now. I do not have a good feeling about the Step Mom it's just a feeling (and I could be wrong)especially after I seen the site where she allowed it to be posted where she just had to leave town and they went out and partied she looked happy to me in those photos just 3 weeks after the death of her husband. I feel anyway that not many people would be able to do that let alone put it on the internet when there husband was just killed and step son who she is suppose to love as her own is locked up all alone for this? A little boy at that????? Something is wrong with that. I don't even know the boy and I want to help him and if I could I'd have gone everyday to see him and help him if I could, hug him and try to comfort him. He called her Mom yet she leaves him all alone like this???

Cherishlove

01-18-2009, 09:22 AM

Another thing was in an interview with his Mom (I don't remember where I read it) she said that about 2 months prior to this on one of her visits the boy told her that Dad/Step Mom fight all the time. Well his Mom confronted his Step Mom and I guess the boy paid for it (I don't know what they did to hip), and then every since that the Step Mom would listen on the phone when he was talking to his Mom (I wonder what she was so afraid the boy was going to say)?

Cherishlove

01-18-2009, 10:22 AM

Casey's little girl was getting in the way is why I feel she killed her, but this is a little boy come on, drugs, affairs, fights at bar, problems at work, problems at home with dad/step mom. I think they have plenty of other people that would of wanted these 2 men gone.

bkwits

01-18-2009, 11:11 AM

You could always hop over to the "dark side":tonguewag: with me!

Seriously, I've tried, really I have. I'm still waiting for someone to put together a plausible random crack head scenario, That's the closest for me so far...but it still leaves a lot to be desired.

I came on this board when I saw the headlines that they were going to try an 8 year old child as an adult. I assumed he did it. I thought there were eyewitnesses, etc. I was appalled though that AZ was going to try him as an adult.

After I came on the board and found out about the interrogation, I was even more appalled. I am for justice for this child whether he did it or not. Here in IL, I've seen too many cases where the accused is led into a false confession, even adults. And though I generally respect LE and pros., some do lie and frame suspects.

We had two men on death row here in IL who were framed by police and pros. The DuPage Seven (7police and da's) were tried for lying and presenting false evidence againist Cruz and Hernandez. The seven were acquited unfortunately.

Cruz (Nicarico case) and Hernandez were tried 3 times at the state's expense of course. Hernandez was finally let go for lack of evidence. Cruz was on death row for 11 years until that group at NU proved by DNA that he didn't do it. The rapist/murderer was already in jail and had confessed some time ago.

Today Cruz and Hernandez are very rich men, thanks to the State of IL. The state paid for 3 long trials, untold man and woman hours trying to convict Cruz and Hernandez, 3 trials each, plus the trial of the DuPage Seven. Careers are ruined. All of this so they could convict two punks who lied to collect reward money.

So I am for justice for this child and for all of us. Who is going to protect us from our protectors?

GentleBreeze

01-18-2009, 11:13 AM

I think many here would be singing a completely different tune if the accused double murder wasn't eight.

IMO It's very much like years ago when most people found it nearly impossible that mothers could murder their own children. No one can understand it. It's so far out of the normal. It's the emotional aspect of the case usually, not the facts that make those cases so difficult.

Even with Casey Anthony, there are lots of people that still desperately cling to her daughter's death being an accident. I think the chances of it being an accidental death & she panicked to cover it up are zero.

I view this case very much the same way.

It does remind me somewhat in the days of the Jessica Lunsford, Greone and the Pamela Vitale cases. The majority of posters at the time were sooooooooo sure that Mark or Archie Lunsford were the one responsible for Jessica's death. In the Greone case the majority were convinced that Steve Greone was the suspect who had murdered his ex, her b/f and his own child and had kidnapped his own children. Even in the Vitale case and Scott Dyleski had been arrested and charged soooo many were still sure that Dan Horowitz was the murderer.

I think it has everything to do with this boy's age. If he were older some would be wanting him to rot.

There are always majority opinions and minority opinions expressed on every case but that is no assurance that the majority will turn out to be correct or the minority will turn out to be correct. They both have been known to be wrong.

imoo

GentleBreeze

01-18-2009, 11:18 AM

Women "Snap" Known fact.
8 yr olds don't methodically plan and carry out murder.

imo

Women do not always snap (how convenient). They also premeditate crimes, just like men.

imoo

GentleBreeze

01-18-2009, 11:27 AM

Which tells me the little boy is telling the truth that he came home and found the men already down and already shot.

The boy sounded apologetic about "tapping" Tim's head with the door because he said (paraphrased here) I tried not to hit him with the door but I think I tapped his head a little bit when I tried to open the door.(again, paraprased)

This in just one of many statements I picked up on when I heard the boy's statements to police.

Why would a boy explain all that (which matches the crime scene) if he just shot the guy? out of rage? He wouldn't.

He found him, exactly, the way he said, already on the ground.

The boy felt guilty that he had tapped Tim's head with the door. That is not consistent with a ruthless, sociopathic killer who just blew the guy's head to pieces.

I have seen suspect's in their confession say all sorts of things trying to negate and soften their crime. I have seen them boo hoo and say they didn't mean to do it or it was an accident when it wasn't an accident at all. Or they say they only just came across the body after someone else had already killed them.

It also would fit if after shooting Tim, that he went back inside for whatever reason. Maybe to even place the gun on the dog cage. He sure couldn't take it with him. With Tim's head blocking the door he would have to push the door back up against his head to get back inside the house. For all we know after killing Tim he may have gone back inside to check on his father to make sure he wasn't a little bit alive, but found that he was and fired the fatal shot to his head, close up.

imoo

FurthurBB

01-18-2009, 11:32 AM

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 11:37 AM

Women do not always snap (how convenient). They also premeditate crimes, just like men.

imoo

Where did you see "always"? R e a d t h e p o s t.

FurthurBB

01-18-2009, 11:38 AM

Exactly my point,thank you for making it for me. You really think Casey just snapped? I don't.

Until now, an 8 yr old hasn't, that that the public knows about. imo

No, I do not believe Casey just snapped. I think she has a life long history psychopathic tendencies from at least early grade school. Though other mothers that kill their children do sometimes snap or it can be postpartum depression as well as other anti-social problems. IMO

JD1974

01-18-2009, 12:26 PM

He weaved in hearing his name because he is 8 years old and trusts adults. They told him no one could lie in that room, so when they said someone heard Tim call him he believed it was true. Ask yourself this, if he knew no one had called him because he was there, why did he finally weave it in?

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 12:35 PM

I found a raw video that doesn't have the skip. He says he shot his dad the first time cause he was mad at him....but he was shot already.
Raw video has always been there.

He never says anywhere or anytime that both men weren't already shot.

So...Who shot them?

JD1974

01-18-2009, 12:36 PM

I keep thinking about how no one heard anything. No one heard the dog going nuts, no one heard anyone yelling for the boy, no one including Tim heard gunshots inside the house (yet the door was most likely open if V only went in to grab something real quick) Tanya supposably hears the kid yelling for Tim yet Tim can't hear gunshots and no one else hears the kid?

Whether the kid did this or not, something is off somewhere. This just reminds me of one of those cases where everyone is around when it happens yet no one seen anything.

bkwits

01-18-2009, 12:39 PM

Cause he knew he was caught in a lie.

Do YOU think this child was treated fairly by LE? Do YOU think it was okay for LE to question him without anyone to be there for him, to lie to him after saying the wouldn't like?

Are you honestly saying that this child was given his constitutional rights? Or should we just throw out the constitution when LE thinks someone is guilty?

This case is shameful, IMO.

bkwits

01-18-2009, 12:41 PM

You concede he may have shot them to end their suffering?

I think either the child shot all 10 bullets or he didn't shoot any. IMO

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 12:42 PM

You concede he may have shot them to end their suffering?

No, they talked him right into that. He knew he wasn't leaving that room until they heard what they wanted to hear.

JD1974

01-18-2009, 12:43 PM

It is not a fact that the dog was going nuts. IMO the pup was probably scared and cowering in her cage.

I think Tim shut the door after entering. The boy opened it and called out to Tim

You mean Vince? Why would he shut the door when he was only running in to grab something and coming right back out? Even if he did close the door, how far was Tim from the door when the shootings happened? A 22 may not make a lot of noise but I cannot see how someone in front of the house where a gun was shot could not hear it. The neighbors yeah they may not have but Tim was standing right there!

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 12:50 PM

They talked him into describing how Tim's body was laying while it was still shaking? That's quite an incriminating detail, don't you think?

Let's it slip he shot his dad again because he was still moving.

Pretty damning

It is thrown out. They know they were wrong. End of THAT story.

GentleBreeze

01-18-2009, 12:51 PM

It is not a fact that the dog was going nuts. IMO the pup was probably scared and cowering in her cage.

I think Tim shut the door after entering. The boy opened it and called out to Tim

I agree and dogs are terrified of gunfire, unless trained. I think Nellie was scared to death with no where to hide, being locked in her cage. She probably cowered in the corner of it and may have even wet herself because she was so traumatized by the 10 shots being fired.

I think Vinnie did close the door behind him. It was in the 50s that day. IMO he wouldn't have left the main entry door open for the heat to escape.

imoo

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 12:54 PM

BUT CAN be used to impeach the boy if he chooses to testify.

He will be found incompetent to stand trial. He will never testify. imo

Kara

01-18-2009, 12:56 PM

BUT CAN be used to impeach the boy if he chooses to testify.
That is what the prosecution wants but I don't believe the judge has ruled on the issue yet.

In my opinion, the offer to pull the confession off the table (except for impreachment) is the prosecution's hail mary attempt to salvage something from that illegally gained "confessiion".

bkwits

01-18-2009, 12:57 PM

I thi k he shot all 10 but only remembers the ones he claims to.

Just from what we now know, could you convict him without the confession?

GentleBreeze

01-18-2009, 12:57 PM

BUT CAN be used to impeach the boy if he chooses to testify.

Also can't the officer testify to what he said before they did the taped confession?

They had to ask him what happened that day when he talked to them the day of the murders.

Imo, the evidence will not line up with the story he even told then.

imoo

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 12:58 PM

That is what the prosecution wants but I don't believe the judge has ruled on the issue yet.

In my opinion, the offer to pull the confession off the table (except for impreachment) is the prosecution's hail mary attempt to salvage something from that illegally gained "confessiion".

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 12:59 PM

IMO That doesn't mean he didn't murder two men.

I will wait for the ballistics to come back. IMO they have the wrong gun and the wrong shooter.

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 01:05 PM

What will you claim if the boy's gun was the murder weapon?

Adults know how to use a chipmunk gun. :rolleyes:
Besides, if it were, we would have heard already. imo

GentleBreeze

01-18-2009, 01:08 PM

Adults know how to use a chipmunk gun. :rolleyes:
Besides, if it were, we would have heard already. imo

But why would an adult use a kid's gun when there were other higher powered guns right there?

Ones where it would have taken much less shots to get the job done?

imoo

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 01:10 PM

The ballistics are back and it's a match IMO. If the boys gun wasn't the murder weapon and the murder weapon wasn't in the house. The boy wouldn't still be in custody.

Link? or leave.

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 01:16 PM

See where it states it's MY OPINION???

IMO The gun and ammo would not have to be sent for further testing IF they had the correct gun.

Jacobtk

01-18-2009, 01:30 PM

The 13-year-old Valles was the youngest of 564 Arizona juveniles moved to adult court in 2006. (That may provide perspective on the unlikelihood of that St. Johns boy who was 8 when he allegedly murdered his father and a roomer on November 5 ever being sent to adult court.)

They put this boy in a prison with adults. Well, I hope Judge Kemp is pleased that this boy is now being raped and beaten by adults. Prison often claim they separate minors, but they generally do not. Usually they are in the same area, but just out of sight.

Jacobtk

01-18-2009, 01:36 PM

"Let me at 'em! Let me at 'em!":flamemad: Melnick, Avila, and the whole darn bunch.

Avila would be a waste of your time. I grew up around people like her. She is only in control when she has the power to enforce it and flaunt it. Once that power is taken away, like during Brewer's sworn interview with her, she attempts to shut down. All it would take to get around her is putting someone in front of her who is not intimidated.

Jacobtk

01-18-2009, 01:38 PM

I think many here would be singing a completely different tune if the accused double murder wasn't eight.

I would not. I would have the same reaction because at this point there is nothing that puts the accused at the scene of the crime. I am always suspicious of police as they have a propensity for abusing their position and they are backed by the state. So in general, until the police present actual physical evidence or a very strong motive, I always assume the accused person is innocent.

Jacobtk

01-18-2009, 01:45 PM

But why would an adult use a kid's gun when there were other higher powered guns right there?

Ones where it would have taken much less shots to get the job done?

How would the person know there were other guns in the home? Such a person would either have to be familiar with the household or searched the home before the two men arrived. The only thing that will link the boy to the crime scene is if his prints are on the casings and there are no other prints besides his. Otherwise, saying that the boy did it because the men were shot with his gun is about as laughable as saying you committed vehicular homicide because someone was killed by your car that the authorities cannot prove you were driving.

GentleBreeze

01-18-2009, 02:07 PM

How would the person know there were other guns in the home? Such a person would either have to be familiar with the household or searched the home before the two men arrived. The only thing that will link the boy to the crime scene is if his prints are on the casings and there are no other prints besides his. Otherwise, saying that the boy did it because the men were shot with his gun is about as laughable as saying you committed vehicular homicide because someone was killed by your car that the authorities cannot prove you were driving.

The boy said all the guns were kept under his parents' bed.

Yes, I do agree the killer would have known where the weapon was kept.

We have no idea what all links this boy to the crime. So far nothing is pointing away from him. If so Brewer/Wood would make everyone aware of that in a NY minute imo.

The time line and cell phone records are going to place him at the scene, imo.

imoo

bkwits

01-18-2009, 02:07 PM

bkwits

01-18-2009, 02:10 PM

They talked him into describing how Tim's body was laying while it was still shaking? That's quite an incriminating detail, don't you think? He volunteered that tid-bit.

Let's it slip he shot his dad again because he was still moving. Kid said he was angry at his dad.

Pretty damning

Reguardless if the confession is in or out.... You can simply ignore that?

In the intrest of finding the truth, I can not.

No answers?

I can. The so-called confession is what tips me in favor of the child's innocence.

GentleBreeze

01-18-2009, 02:18 PM

yea i have my doubts of the step-mom to. if there was a lot of drug dealings going on then why would vince have that kind of behavior around his only son? i don't like questioning the deceased like that, but he supposedly fought for custody then he wasn't to smart knowing that could cause him to lose custody to the mother if she had know of that and i think it would have been a matter of time before she found out. like i said before yea he may of been a good dad, but he sure was a irresponsible one along with the other grown ups in that house. all that's been happening to this little boy yea i know he needs the help like yesterday, but he also needs his mother beside him as well. i do believe that this little boy needs to grieve for his dad along with his family if he hasn't already especially if he didn't commit these crimes.

There is absolutely no evidence that Vince ever did drugs or sold drugs.

The autopsy report said neither one of them had alcohol or drugs in their systems when murdered.

Tim had a drug charge back in the 90s. That is all, from what we have learned. The San Carlos police said that they had their suspicions that he had done minor drug dealings, which means they never had the evidence to charge him. They did not state when they had their suspicions of that, it may have been all the way back when he was arrested for using drugs. IIRC, Tim had been working at the St. John's plant for about a year.

imoo

Jacobtk

01-18-2009, 02:42 PM

The boy said all the guns were kept under his parents' bed.

Yes, I do agree the killer would have known where the weapon was kept.

We have no idea what all links this boy to the crime. So far nothing is pointing away from him. If so Brewer/Wood would make everyone aware of that in a NY minute imo.

The time line and cell phone records are going to place him at the scene,

The boy places himself at the scene by virtue of telling his neighbor that his father was dead. None of the evidence presented, however, demonstrates or even implies the boy was the shooter. The only thing anyone has to go on is that the police accused him. The cell phone records would not place the boy there because cell phones do not record phone conversations. All it would show is that Tanya was on the phone with Tim. The time line is a complete mess. It is uncertain where the boy was for the two hours he was out of school or where Tiffany was shortly before the shootings.

As for Brewer revealing his hand, he technically cannot. He is under a gag order, so anything he wishes to say would have to be presented to the court. He also would not be able to prove the boy did not do it without access to the evidence being analyzed or someone else confessing. The former will only happen once the state turns over the evidence and the latter is not very likely.

The simple fact is that the boy is not the only person who would know where things are located in the home and until the police can actually place him at the scene during the shooting he is not the only suspect, just the least likely.

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 02:49 PM

They put this boy in a prison with adults. Well, I hope Judge Kemp is pleased that this boy is now being raped and beaten by adults. Prison often claim they separate minors, but they generally do not. Usually they are in the same area, but just out of sight.

Yes, at 13 he is the youngest be to tried as an adult in AZ.
I think judges & DA's that do this type of thing should be castrated. That is just my opinion.

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 02:58 PM

How would the person know there were other guns in the home? Such a person would either have to be familiar with the household or searched the home before the two men arrived. The only thing that will link the boy to the crime scene is if his prints are on the casings and there are no other prints besides his. Otherwise, saying that the boy did it because the men were shot with his gun is about as laughable as saying you committed vehicular homicide because someone was killed by your car that the authorities cannot prove you were driving.

Notice they mention the childs fingerprints on the box of ammo, but not on the castings in the ballistics report that was released?

bkwits

01-18-2009, 02:59 PM

Yes, at 13 he is the youngest be to tried as an adult in AZ.
I think judges & DA's that do this type of thing should be castrated. That is just my opinion.

Why? Picking on those who are weaker? They don't have any NOW. IMO:thumbdown:

wolfi_2

01-18-2009, 03:02 PM

Yes, at 13 he is the youngest be to tried as an adult in AZ.
I think judges & DA's that do this type of thing should be castrated. That is just my opinion.

that´s right, 13years old are still children, they put his live into a garbage box, same what they would do in this case.

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 03:07 PM

I can. The so-called confession is what tips me in favor of the child's innocence.

I am with you! :thumbsup:

Jacobtk

01-18-2009, 03:09 PM

Notice they mention the childs fingerprints on the box of ammo, but not on the castings in the ballistics report that was released?

I caught that. It would not make any sense for the state not to release that information if they had it. So that leads me to believe they either found nothing or never bothered to test the unspent rounds.

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 03:11 PM

Why? Picking on those who are weaker? They don't have any NOW. IMO:thumbdown:

Because it felt really good! :lol:

bkwits

01-18-2009, 03:35 PM

Notice they mention the childs fingerprints on the box of ammo, but not on the castings in the ballistics report that was released?

You mean casings don't you? I'm not picking on your typos (if it was one) but just trying to clarify. :smile:

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 03:43 PM

You mean casings don't you? I'm not picking on your typos (if it was one) but just trying to clarify. :smile:

Yes, you are picking on me. You know it was meant to be casings. My best friend here can't spell either. :tonguewag:

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 03:51 PM

I caught that. It would not make any sense for the state not to release that information if they had it. So that leads me to believe they either found nothing or never bothered to test the unspent rounds.

Why release an imcomplete report? IMO you are right, either they found nothing or never bothered to test the unspent rounds.

bkwits

01-18-2009, 03:57 PM

Yes, you are picking on me. You know it was meant to be casings. My best friend here can't spell either. :tonguewag:

Actually I wasn't sure. :unsure::unsure:

bkwits

01-18-2009, 04:55 PM

anybody still out there? i think it must be 2 hours later than here in minnesota. we are finally warming up with 25 degrees.

I'm here. It is up to 16 here in beautiful sunny IL.

We have been discussing the crack hea thief scenario earlier. Anything to add?

bkwits

01-18-2009, 05:00 PM

has anyone been to st. johns since this horrible crime began? it doesn't seem like a good place to be or near.

Have you seen the site called FelonSpy? You type in an address and it shows a map with little balloons. You click on the balloon and it gives the persons name, age and what crime he or she was convicted of. I tried for St. Johns. It didn't seem that bad, but maybe because it is lower population than the other sites I checked.

Hawk

01-18-2009, 05:06 PM

What will happen at the next court hearing???
The judge has the mental evaluations (most important part), the ballistic comparison reports, witness statements, cell phone records, and the autopsy reports. The lawyers may argue that everything isn't in (and never will be, enough to satisfy both sides), but you know it is, and has been for awhile. The labs have expedited their work simply because of the national spotlight.
This is the biggest national case in Arizona's history since the 'O.K. Corral Gunfight' in 1881. Is this kid Doc Holliday, or a grieving son?

Jacobtk

01-18-2009, 05:11 PM

What will happen Wednesday in court?

The next hearing was moved to next week because one of the boy's attornerys will be on vacation this week... or perhaps going somewhere to have evidence tested without the state knowing (technically not illegal).

Hawk

01-18-2009, 05:25 PM

The next hearing was moved to next week because one of the boy's attornerys will be on vacation this week... or perhaps going somewhere to have evidence tested without the state knowing (technically not illegal).

Thanks. I had the date wrong. Let's hope that neither prosecution or defence is involved with illegal activity. An honest search for the truth would serve both sides more effectively.

Hawk

01-18-2009, 05:26 PM

a grieving son who has been dragged through the mud and is going to take a long time to heal if he ever gets the chance

Regardless of his guilt do you think he will ever heal?

Hawk

01-18-2009, 05:43 PM

i just don't know, but i hope in time along with therapy,family this little boy has a chance of living a normal, healthy and happy life since he is only 9 years old. i've said before if he did do it although i am not convinced he did, something was happening to him for this to happen. some people question his mother's visit before this happened. nobody knows what happened before,during and after the parents dirvorce. i am just glad that his mother is there for him now and i hope she is no matter what the outcome is.

I misspoke, as I often do. I meant to ask will he ever get over this tragedy, guilty or innocent. I didn't mean to imply his guilt. It's an open ended question.
You've answered the question, either way. Thanks.

wolfi_2

01-18-2009, 05:44 PM

Regardless of his guilt do you think he will ever heal?

Yes, kid's can be healed, I think, better than adults. But the nightmares will be there for a long time, my mom had still sometimes nightmares, because she found my brother after his suicide at home, that's 25 years ago now and I think that will never end. If the boy did it, he punished himself a lot.

Hawk

01-18-2009, 05:46 PM

Yes, kid's can be healed, I think, better than adults. But the nightmares will be there for a long time, my mom had still sometimes nightmares, because she found my brother after his suicide at home, that's 25 years ago now and I think that will never end. If the boy did it, he punished himself a lot.

Or will. In years to come.

Hawk

01-18-2009, 05:58 PM

Hawk

01-18-2009, 06:02 PM

Based on what?

I understand your wanting this boy to be innocent, but at what cost? I can't toss out all reason and logic.

Neither can I. But there may be another reasonable explanation. It's just that no one on this board has come up with one yet.

Hawk

01-18-2009, 06:06 PM

Depends on what's wrong with him

Kinda hard on the little boy ain't ya?

Hawk

01-18-2009, 06:08 PM

Of course he was crying for himself. They did not accept anything he had to say. He was going to juvie for something he didn't do. As an 8 yo/9yo, he has every right to cry. Heck fire, I'd be crying under those circumstances and I'm 50. How can we expect a child not to cry????

I'm a lot older than you and crying over this too. I've been 'Around the horn' more than once.

Jacobtk

01-18-2009, 06:11 PM

So you are saying the real shooter didn't know them and didn't know they had guns? So with your theory, we can rule out everyone that knew them?
We then can rule out burglary because nothing was taken. That leaves a hit-man. That's about as far fetched as it gets.

I doubt it was a hitman, but it is possible. Since the ballistics report has not come back stating that the weapon used belonged to any of the Romeros, it is premature to say that any of their weapons was the murder weapon. There are hundreds of thousands of guns that can fire .22 caliber rounds. That the Romeros owned a few proves nothing.

As for who the real shooter could be, again, there are several other people who would know where the guns were in the house, the most obvious being Tiffany Romero. Since it is uncertain where exactly she was at the time of the shootings, it is entirely possible that she is the shooter.

Are you discounting everything the boy said?

Nothing he stated matched the crime scene and there are several things he said that are completely improbable (such as sitting by his father for 30 minutes). It makes no sense to accept only the parts of his statements that incriminate him and then throw out rest that does not make any logical sense. If he could be mistaken about some parts of his actions, then he can be mistaken about others. Until there is something physically linking him to the crime scene, nothing he said in the interview (beyond the initial statement he gave at his home) can be trusted.

GentleBreeze

01-18-2009, 06:12 PM

The boy places himself at the scene by virtue of telling his neighbor that his father was dead. None of the evidence presented, however, demonstrates or even implies the boy was the shooter. The only thing anyone has to go on is that the police accused him. The cell phone records would not place the boy there because cell phones do not record phone conversations. All it would show is that Tanya was on the phone with Tim. The time line is a complete mess. It is uncertain where the boy was for the two hours he was out of school or where Tiffany was shortly before the shootings.

As for Brewer revealing his hand, he technically cannot. He is under a gag order, so anything he wishes to say would have to be presented to the court. He also would not be able to prove the boy did not do it without access to the evidence being analyzed or someone else confessing. The former will only happen once the state turns over the evidence and the latter is not very likely.

The simple fact is that the boy is not the only person who would know where things are located in the home and until the police can actually place him at the scene during the shooting he is not the only suspect, just the least likely.

Yes, he does put himself at the crime scene, even what he did when he was there.

I do not agree with you about the cell phone records. They aren't a mess. They will be succinct and substantiated. They don't lie. They don't have a bias. They will have the times each party called and how long those conversations were and when they ended. Showing when both victims were alive. For example Tanya's call with Tim that ended close to 4:55 pm. It doesn't matter what he said or what she heard, it proves he was alive at that time. Then they will have Tiffany and Vincent's call and the call made to Vincent from his father in law. Then they will have neighbors who heard gunshots around 5 pm and then called 911 at 5:03. They will also have times of when the neighborhood boy first called his father and that imo is going to be very revealing in connection to all of the events that he said were to have happened when he came upon the bodies before he left.

They will also know approximately how long it would take him to leave his residence and arrive at the home in back of him.

IMO it is going to be within a few short minutes (maybe a minute or two) of when the neighbors heard the gunshots, leaving him no time but to leave once they were dead. IMO he knew he could not just sit there in the home until someone came home and found them and him there.

No one said they saw this boy going down the street even though he says he walked around the block 10 times or more. Strange that none of the other bus kids were out playing in their yard after school. Oh thats right he did say that as he walked around he saw Cage but mysteriously he says he doesn't think Cage saw him. I wonder what Cage has to say about that day.

And the forensic evidence is going to bolster the time line records imo.

Phooey. Brewer/Wood has been under a gag order since four days after this happened but it sure didn't prevent them from dumping a 100 pages of the interviews with the cops into the media's lap and it sure didn't stop him from commenting about deciding whether to consider the plea bargain.

If he had anything he would be leaking it like a sieve to the media.

IMO

Hawk

01-18-2009, 06:15 PM

Nothing he stated matched the crime scene.

He said he shot Mr. Romero first, then Mr. Romans, then Mr. Romero again. The evidence, as we know it, supports his statements.
That's the whole basis of LE's case.
In order to dispute the evidence there has to be other evidence that leads away from what is known.
If it can be done, then let's do it. We can't create evidence. We have to deal with what we know.

GentleBreeze

01-18-2009, 06:27 PM

Absolutely it is serious. My point is he has had no history of any behavior even close to this. Yes, he was almost 9, he has had no history of any form of even a mild form of violent misbehavior, i.e unprovoked fights at school or destruction of property, nada. IF the child committed these murders, he would not have done so without being provoked. And no, not quite as rare as an 8/9yr old murderer. He is not a murderer. I don't believe there has ever been a proven case of an 8/9 yo murderer.

We even see adult murder defendants that had no prior criminal history throughout their lives or any history of any abnormal behavior before they committed the ultimate act of homicide.

imo

Jacobtk

01-18-2009, 06:32 PM

Yes, he does put himself at the crime scene, even what he did when he was there.

The interview cannot be trusted because the boy only repeats what the officers say. If you watch actual, valid confessions, the suspect will generally give the police information they either did not know and usually does so in detail. The boy, however, does nothing of the sort. He never states where he got his gun from, where he got the rounds from, where he shot both men (both his location and the location of the wounds) or where he put his gun when he was done. Is it not odd that he would admit to a crime, but cannot even get the basic facts of the scene correct nor does he give any information that could not be gleamed from a casual glance at the scene (such as seeing the bodies and then running next door to tell a neighbor)?

I do not agree with you about the cell phone records.

It is Tiffany Romero's location that is a mess, not the cell phone records. The records would only demonstrate that Tanya was on the phone with Tim, not that she heard the boy in the background. The issue is not when Tim was last alive, but whether the boy was the shooter, so the phone records do not help the state.

Brewer/Wood has been under a gag order since four days after this happened but it sure didn't prevent them from dumping a 100 pages of the interviews with the cops into the media's lap and it sure didn't stop him from commenting about deciding whether to consider the plea bargain.

The police interviews were sworn statements and part of the court's records and therefore they were public record. Releasing them did not violate the gag order anymore than the state releasing its incomplete findings two weeks ago. Similarly, the plea deal was publicized by the prosecutors and the gag order does not prevent either side from stating what they intend to do so long as it is a general comment. There is no violation on Brewer's or Wood's part.

Hawk

01-18-2009, 06:34 PM

With or wothout the confession there is going to be more than enough to convict the boy IMO.

The boy would have never taken the stand anyway. IMO the kid wouldn't know the truth if it smacked him in the face. Lying has been an on going problem for this child....he, himself said that...if you believe him.

What evidence is there without the confession? That the Chipmunk is the murder weapon? His fingerprints are on it? The casings may, or may not have, his fingerprints (smears often occur on brass), besides, those were his ammo for his gun. He could have touched them anytime.
The boy owned the little rifle. Of course he touched it. Perhaps sometime in the past. Time-line fingerprints is a technology we don't yet have.
Mrs. Romans statement? Placing him in the home at the time of the murders doesn't mean he pulled the trigger. Her statement is 'He-said, She-said', anyway.

Jacobtk

01-18-2009, 06:39 PM

He said he shot Mr. Romero first, then Mr. Romans, then Mr. Romero again. The evidence, as we know it, supports his statements.

How? None of the evidence, including the autopsy report, states what order the men were shot in or what order the wounds occurred. One can attempt to gleam such information, but there are a myriad of possibilities. For example, it is possible that Romans was shot first, which is why he headed towards the home instead of away. The shooter(s) then went inside and shot Romero, who was on the staircase coming to see who had fired a gun. The shooter(s) check the other rooms, stepping over Romero and later shoot him because he is still breathing or moving. The shooter(s) shoot Romans again just to make sure he is also dead and then leave as the boy approaches.

It is entirely possible based on the evidence, but until the ballistics report comes back, we have no way of know what occurred.

This is why courts have the reasonable doubt policy. Is it reasonable, based on the evidence, to believe an 8-year-old with no apparent motive shot two men ten times? Not whether you think it is possible, but whether it is a reasonable conclusion to say he did do it.

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 06:41 PM

muska

01-18-2009, 06:42 PM

Why did he weave in the tale about calling out Tim's name? he was trying to explain away the witness that heard him.
First he says he saw Tim while walking home, then that changes.

It doesn't ring true that he wasn't in the house before the men came home, the bookbag.

His friend that he claims to have waved to during the 10 lap walk...says he didn't see him.

He doesn't sound scared or intimidated in the least. Rather he sounds like he is enjoying it in part 1 and 2. He changes his story with each little conflicted thing he's confronted with. He changes his story to explain away evidence against him. He's not scared.

Part 3 He brings up seeing Tim shaking. and puts the gun in his hand.

Part 4 He even laughs about going to the bathroom at home when he returns from school. He is not scared. Admits he kept shooting until they stopped moving. Tells LE that what he is saying is the truth. Is ADAMENT he's telling the truth. Tells them he was angry at his dad.

Part 4 skips as he begins to raise his voice and say, "but he...( i think he was about to say "hurt" ) WHY IS THAT PART CUT OUT FROM THE VIDEO????? He was justifying shooting his dad.

His tears are for himself and the realization that he's caught and going to juvie.

He knew the gun was on the cage, he brings it up.

*************Maybe the kid suffered from intermittent explosive disorder and his rage simply got the best of him. He may have actually black out during some parts. ************

Only have a minute but.....

Paraphrasing, Avila asked the boy if there were any guns around. He said, "No, I don't remember seeing any guns." Then Avila said someone told her one was on the dog cage. It was not until Avila TOLD HIM the gun was on the dog cage that he, quite a bit later, said that he took it and threw it in the closet.

Tim may have been quivering when the boy first saw him. He may have walked in within moments of the crime. By the time he ran through the house, TR could have been dead.

Hawk

01-18-2009, 06:45 PM

How? None of the evidence, including the autopsy report, states what order the men were shot in or what order the wounds occurred. One can attempt to gleam such information, but there are a myriad of possibilities. For example, it is possible that Romans was shot first, which is why he headed towards the home instead of away. The shooter(s) then went inside and shot Romero, who was on the staircase coming to see who had fired a gun. The shooter(s) check the other rooms, stepping over Romero and later shoot him because he is still breathing or moving. The shooter(s) shoot Romans again just to make sure he is also dead and then leave as the boy approaches.

It is entirely possible based on the evidence, but until the ballistics report comes back, we have no way of know what occurred.

This is why courts have the reasonable doubt policy. Is it reasonable, based on the evidence, to believe an 8-year-old with no apparent motive shot two men ten times? Not whether you think it is possible, but whether it is a reasonable conclusion to say he did do it.

How could Mr. Romans have been shot first with Mr. Romero downstairs (where he would have been, before ascending the stairs) and not heard or seen what what happenings 20 feet away?
The evidence clearly points to the boys statements. The question is, who did the shooting.

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 06:46 PM

We even see adult murder defendants that had no prior criminal history throughout their lives or any history of any abnormal behavior before they committed the ultimate act of homicide.

imo

They have been through infancy, childhood, teen years, young adult and adulthood.

He's now 9 yrs old. That doesn't even get him to teen years!
He does not have an adults life experiences.

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 06:49 PM

How could Mr. Romans have been shot first with Mr. Romero downstairs (where he would have been, before ascending the stairs) and not heard or seen what what happenings 20 feet away?
The evidence clearly points to the boys statements. The question is, who did the shooting.

I find it very possible that Tim was shot first. The shooter then went into the house chased Vinnie and killed him, then went out the back door as the boy was coming in the front.

How's that? :biggrin:

Hawk

01-18-2009, 06:52 PM

I find it very possible that Tim was shot first. The shooter then went into the house chased Vinnie and killed him, then went out the back door as the boy was coming in the front.

How's that? :biggrin:

That would take two and one half minutes after the cell call. The call is on record. You're chasing a dead skunk. The back door was locked.

GentleBreeze

01-18-2009, 06:54 PM

The interview cannot be trusted because the boy only repeats what the officers say. If you watch actual, valid confessions, the suspect will generally give the police information they either did not know and usually does so in detail. The boy, however, does nothing of the sort. He never states where he got his gun from, where he got the rounds from, where he shot both men (both his location and the location of the wounds) or where he put his gun when he was done. Is it not odd that he would admit to a crime, but cannot even get the basic facts of the scene correct nor does he give any information that could not be gleamed from a casual glance at the scene (such as seeing the bodies and then running next door to tell a neighbor)?

It is Tiffany Romero's location that is a mess, not the cell phone records. The records would only demonstrate that Tanya was on the phone with Tim, not that she heard the boy in the background. The issue is not when Tim was last alive, but whether the boy was the shooter, so the phone records do not help the state.

The police interviews were sworn statements and part of the court's records and therefore they were public record. Releasing them did not violate the gag order anymore than the state releasing its incomplete findings two weeks ago. Similarly, the plea deal was publicized by the prosecutors and the gag order does not prevent either side from stating what they intend to do so long as it is a general comment. There is no violation on Brewer's or Wood's part.

I am not talking about the confession interview. He was at the scene the day of the murders and the police talked to him. They will be able to testify as to what he told them that day and imo it is not going to line up.

We have no idea if Tiffany's cell phone is in a mess. The pings will give her location when the calls were made and they can get the pings for Vinnie phone showing his location. For all we know others may have seen her during the time line period. I am sure she wasn't hiding when she went into each store and this is a small town where most knows everyone. Tiffany is not the problem or her whereabouts. IMO she has an iron clad alibi.

He is like many of suspects that I have seen when talking to police. He was overly detailed in some parts, going on and on about he turned here, then went there and then turned here and went there, which imo shows lies. Liars tend to embellish and give themselves away when all the drama story wouldn't be necessary to just answer the question without all the big ado. Then he was evasive with his "i don't know" "I don't think so" "I think". He seems rather typical. Most suspects will first deny, be evasive about somethings,outright lie about other things and then give a little but not all the information trying to lesson their accountability in the crime.

Oh yes, the issue IS when Tim was alive and how shortly after he was NOT.

The Prosecutor has made no comment publicly about any plea deal or for that matter anything else. This was submitted to the court........not the media. The defense attorney is the only one that commented on it publicly. So he is not above leaking or talking out of turn and if he remotely had a shred of evidence that shows his client didnt do this he would leak it, just like he took the chance of commenting on the plea deal while knowing he was under a gag order.

imoo

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 06:56 PM

That would take two and one half minutes after the cell call. The call is on record. You're chasing a dead skunk. The back door was locked.

It wasn't the chipmunk gun.
Locked from an adult getting out? I don't think so.

moo

FurthurBB

01-18-2009, 06:57 PM

They do not tell him what to say or put the words in his mouth. He volunteered that he shot Tim because he was shaking. He also says he shot his dad because he was still moving.

He didn't say gun shot residue could be on his cloths because he wore them before when shooting with his dad. He made up a story about huge clouds of smoke trapped in the hallway.

Tiffany and Tonya have alibis and both knew that both men owned guns.
There is no reason Tim's wife would lie to implicate the child. None.

Yes, actually there are two good reasons she would lie to implicate this child. One could be that she sent someone there to kill Tim, another could be that she thinks she can cash in if a kid is the killer. This does not even address the fact that Tim may have lied to her about who was calling him or that Tim was mistaken about who was calling him. IMO

Hawk

01-18-2009, 06:58 PM

Nah...my opinion has zero impact on the child. I'm not emotionally invested in him. I like to remain objective.

I feel bad for him and the situation he's in, but that doesn't out weigh my compassion for two dead men brutally shot to death.

That's where we differ. I am emotionally invested, although I've tried to avoid it.
I still want to know what happened and why.

Cherishlove

01-18-2009, 06:58 PM

do you have children and or grandchildren? just wondering?The person probably has no idea what an 8 year old even is like or looks like.

Hawk

01-18-2009, 06:59 PM

It wasn't the chipmunk gun.
Locked from an adult getting out? I don't think so.

moo

You're stretching, or ignoring, the evidence to suit your guesses.

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 07:02 PM

That's where we differ. I am emotionally invested, although I've tried to avoid it.
I still want to know what happened and why.

Attorneys, LE and investigators get emotionally involved sometimes in these cases. I know of one attorney who quit being a lawyer after losing a case where he KNEW his client was innocent.

Hawk

01-18-2009, 07:05 PM

Attorneys, LE and investigators get emotionally involved sometimes in these cases. I know of one attorney who quit being a lawyer after losing a case where he KNEW his client was innocent.

Alright then. Let's not debate emotion and stick to the evidence. I didn't intend to admit I have a heart anyway.

GentleBreeze

01-18-2009, 07:07 PM

The person probably has no idea what an 8 year old even is like or looks like.

I sure hope they don't know any other 8 year old that has been arrested and charged with double homicide.

imoo

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 07:11 PM

I am talking about his guilt or innocence. That matters to me. Not whether he gets away with it or not.

I'm not treating him at all.

I don't care if he's tried as a juvenile. If he's found guilty or if he takes the deal I would hope he gets the next 9 years in a residential TREATMENT facility where he can get the intensive therapy he needs. Then God help everyone when he gets out and I'd hope it worked.
You scare me.

Jacobtk

01-18-2009, 07:13 PM

How could Mr. Romans have been shot first with Mr. Romero downstairs (where he would have been, before ascending the stairs) and not heard or seen what what happenings 20 feet away?
The evidence clearly points to the boys statements. The question is, who did the shooting.

Romero could have gone in the home and went upstairs while Romans did whatever it was he was doing outside. He could have come out of his room once he heard the shots and then walked into gunfire.

Hawk

01-18-2009, 07:14 PM

That sounds plausable. VR could have gone to the bathroom when they got home. I know when I get in from work I have to go to the bathroom, just like the officer asked the boy if he had to go to the bathroom when he got in from school. The killer killed Tim first and caught VR coming out of the bathroom and VR was running up stairs to grab a gun but the shooter got him first.

Mr. Romans was shot repeatedly ending with the security door against his head, while the front door was open? Yet Mr. Romero wasn't cognizant? This house is tiny.
Better rethink that one.

Hawk

01-18-2009, 07:15 PM

Romero could have gone in the home and went upstairs while Romans did whatever it was he was doing outside. He could have come out of his room once he heard the shots and then walked into gunfire.

He was shot ascending, not descending the stairs.

GentleBreeze

01-18-2009, 07:17 PM

Excuse me, but imo, he did not suffer from intermittent explosive disorder imo. DSMIV-TR page 663-667.

defined as being discrete episodes of failure to resis aggressive impulses resulting in serious assaults or destruction of property. This child has had no history of such behavior.

1. it is a rare disorder

2. no history of aggressive behavior

3. the behavior occurs without provocation.

Is this the criteria for this disorder? 1.2.and 3.?

How would he have a history if "no history of aggressive behavior" was known and "the behavior occurs without provocation?"

Doesn't this mean it could just erupt right out of no where, with no warning?

imoo

Hawk

01-18-2009, 07:18 PM

talk about a stretch...........................

She sent someone? Ask your best friend if he/she would do that for you. Ask the same friend if they know someone who would...........

Hawk

01-18-2009, 07:28 PM

At the risk of being redundant (imagine that), I'm re-posting this in hopes of getting a bite or two from some of our Legal Eagles;

What will happen at the next court hearing???
The judge has the mental evaluations (most important part), the ballistic comparison reports, witness statements, cell phone records, and the autopsy reports. The lawyers may argue that everything isn't in (and never will be, enough to satisfy both sides), but you know it is, and has been for awhile. The labs have expedited their work simply because of the national spotlight.
This is the biggest national case in Arizona's history since the 'O.K. Corral Gunfight' in 1881. Is this kid Doc Holliday, or a grieving son?

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 07:33 PM

So now the real killer had a key to their back door?????????????

To get out? Who needs a key?????????????

Hawk

01-18-2009, 07:34 PM

To get out? Who needs a key?????????????

Keyed bolt lock. Very common. No lever. Hard to break down from the inside if it's an inward swinging door.

Jacobtk

01-18-2009, 07:35 PM

He was shot ascending, not descending the stairs.

Where does it state that in the autopsy report?

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 07:35 PM

just wondering does the mom read these posts? i know she does on my childs my space. gosh i don't know where she gets her strength. i just hope to god she continues to get the strength so she can support her child. i commend her on so many levels cause i just don't know what i would do in her shoes?? god bless her and her child, along with the victims

I am sure she sees only two on this board that are Gun Ho G's.

Hawk

01-18-2009, 07:37 PM

Where does it state that in the autopsy report?

He was found face down on the top landing. His head was resting there.

wolfi_2

01-18-2009, 07:38 PM

Hawk

01-18-2009, 07:39 PM

just wondering does the mom read these posts? i know she does on my childs my space. gosh i don't know where she gets her strength. i just hope to god she continues to get the strength so she can support her child. i commend her on so many levels cause i just don't know what i would do in her shoes?? god bless her and her child, along with the victims

She (ChildsVoice) posts on this board daily and is very gracious.

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 07:41 PM

HotNostril, do you have one ounce of compassion for this little boy that you don't even know?

If it IS PROVEN beyond a reasonable doubt after all the evidence is in and the investigation is exhausted and it turns out the boy did do it....I'm still going feel the same way about him. I listened to him and he sounded pretty darn believable when he gave his first account of what he came home to that day.

A little boy was taken and placed in a big comfy chair and fibbed to by two people he was expected to trust. I have no respect for those LEO's. I hope the Chief has money in his budget to send these two for more education & training...IMO, THEY NEED IT.

They never even asked him if he was cold, or if they could get him a drink. I know an 8 yr old boy will not ask two women cops if he can use the bathroom. He HAD to tell them what they wanted to hear...just to get out of there.

imo

Hawk

01-18-2009, 07:48 PM

what is a gun ho g's?

I'm vaguely familiar with 'gun ho'. There are some in my town. And many in jail. But what is a 'gun ho g'?

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 07:48 PM

He was found face down on the top landing. His head was resting there.

Yes, he was running for his life.

moo

Hawk

01-18-2009, 07:50 PM

Yes, he was running for his life.

moo

Up the stairs. Not down.

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 07:50 PM

Really? He was confident enough to even interrupt one and raised his voice to talk over her. That's pretty bold for a "petrified" 8 year old.

He was extremely confident and self assured in his contradictory statements for most of the interview.

He seems to be a very personable child.

Just remember, your theory is, some children, with NO prior acts...Will Kill.

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 07:51 PM

Up the stairs. Not down.

Yes, exactly.

Hawk

01-18-2009, 07:52 PM

Hawk-Childs Voice is NOT Eryn. She has been in contact with Eryn, but is definitely NOT her.

We all understand that, very well. It seems to me that Ms. Bloomfield sometimes makes contact with the outside world through ChildsVoice. If I posted in an ambiguous manner I apologize.

Cherishlove

01-18-2009, 07:53 PM

When you lack the evidence to back up your opinions do you always resort to personal attacks?No I apologize but I'm a Mom and they do need to find out the truth I agree with that, but they could of put an ankle braclet on the little boy while they continued to do a indepth investigation. You do have to agree that the SJPD did not do a good job they thought they had this wrapped up in one day. To me there was alot more investigating to do and the SJPD thought because of the coached confession they were done? I can't understand that at all.

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 07:53 PM

:lol::lol: Too funny! She meant "Gung-ho guilty"

There is no hyphen.

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 07:54 PM

No, my theory is THIS child apparently did.

What makes you think he could be the only child on the face of this earth capable of it?

wolfi_2

01-18-2009, 07:55 PM

Really? He was confident enough to even interrupt one and raised his voice to talk over her. That's pretty bold for a "petrified" 8 year old.

He was extremely confident and self assured in his contradictory statements for most of the interview.

had to log in again!
This video was a bad one, taken with bad or old equipment, a higher voice is mostly better on a record to hear, than a deeper voice. so that isn´t expressively!

Hawk

01-18-2009, 07:58 PM

Sorry...just reread the original post and realized you were referring to Childs Voice and not Eryn. Sorry.
:blushing:

That's okay. I don't always make myself clear. That post wasn't.

Cherishlove

01-18-2009, 07:59 PM

Really? He was confident enough to even interrupt one and raised his voice to talk over her. That's pretty bold for a "petrified" 8 year old.

He was extremely confident and self assured in his contradictory statements for most of the interview.He thought he was there trying to help get the "bad guys" and then they started lying to him and twisting things.

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 07:59 PM

I agree Good_Gawd, he does seem like a personable child. The boy was TRYING to help figure out what the heck happened at his house. The boy was probably still in a state of shock. The mental image of what he saw....poor thing.

The boy was trying to be helpful but little did he know...he had the right to remain silent and END THE INTERVIEW.

Post of the day! :thumbsup:

Jacobtk

01-18-2009, 08:01 PM

They do not tell him what to say or put the words in his mouth. He volunteered that he shot Tim because he was shaking. He also says he shot his dad because he was still moving.

I am not certain where you got that idea, but in the interview the officers corner him by stating that the only way gunpowder would be on his clothing was if he shot a gun. The boy denies this repeatedly, and then Avila states that they would be able to tell if he was shooting a gun. The boy then states "I think I was shooting a gun" at the white car. Avila then lies and says that people "saw some times." Avila then asks where both men were when the boy was shooting the gun. The boy says his father was upstairs lying on the ground and Tim downstairs. Avila then asks if it was possible that the boy shot Tim by accident. The boy says no. He asks why he would shoot Tim. Avila says she does not know. The boy says that it may be some bad people down the street who did it. Then Avila accuses the boy of not telling the truth and tells the boy it will not look good for him not to tell the truth. The boy then says he does not know if the gun went off by accident. He then says that he thinks he might have saw Tim bleeding and that the gun might have gone off by accident, but he does not know for sure.

The point is this: he never states on his own "I shot Tim on accident because he was shaking." He fabricates a story that will get Avila to stop threatening him with getting in trouble for not telling the "truth." Watch the interrogation again (http://www.azfamily.com/video/3tvextra-index.html?nvid=305037). The boy offers no information that Avila or Neckels do not feed him or imply that they want to hear.

He didn't say gun shot residue could be on his cloths because he wore them before when shooting with his dad. He made up a story about huge clouds of smoke trapped in the hallway.

Yes, he made up the story when the officers implied that gunpowder would be on his clothing once they tested his clothes.

Tiffany and Tonya have alibis and both knew that both men owned guns.
There is no reason Tim's wife would lie to implicate the child. None.

There would be if she were trying to lead police away from her. Tiffany's alibi is not airtight because she has at least fifteen minutes to get home between 4:45 to 5:03. That would give her enough time to kill both men and leave.

Hawk

01-18-2009, 08:01 PM

had to log in again!
This video was a bad one, taken with bad or old equipment, a higher voice is mostly better on a record to hear, than a deeper voice. so that isn´t expressively!

Thought you gave it up for tonight! It's just too hard to put aside, isn't it? Even from the other side of the planet!
Keep posting. Your thoughts are appreciated!

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 08:01 PM

It's slang and either is acceptable

We know you can never be wrong Linda.

moo

wolfi_2

01-18-2009, 08:04 PM

Thought you gave it up for tonight! It's just too hard to put aside, isn't it? Even from the other side of the planet!
Keep posting. Your thoughts are appreciated!

thanks, I have 4 hours left to sleep now.:sleep:

Hawk

01-18-2009, 08:06 PM

We know you can never be wrong Linda.

moo

I knew what you meant. Just my feeble attempt at southern humor. No need to be hateful. Save your adrenaline for when you need it.

Jacobtk

01-18-2009, 08:07 PM

Up the stairs. Not down.

If that is the case, then there is slight problem. The most probable reason he would run upstairs is to get a gun to defend himself. What is the likelihood that this man would run away from his own son, even if the boy was pointing a gun at him, or that this man would attempt to go into a room full of weapons to do the most obvious thing?

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 08:08 PM

muska

01-18-2009, 08:10 PM

I have a child and worked in a professional capacity with emotionally disturbed children for over twenty years.

Was that direct contact with kids? I thought you'd said that you didn't work directly with children.

I taught special ed/emotionally disturbed children for several years so I'm just a little curious.

Hawk

01-18-2009, 08:13 PM

If that is the case, then there is slight problem. The most probable reason he would run upstairs is to get a gun to defend himself. What is the likelihood that this man would runaway from his own son, even if the boy was pointing a gun at him, or that this man would attempt to go into a room full of weapons to do the most obvious thing?

He was shot in the brain from a shooter at the top of the 2nd landing. He wasn't running anywhere. The shooter was there and ready. Mr. Romero wasn't.
Please read the evidence. If we are to make rational opinions we should use the known evidence. Otherwise we're just contributing to make believe.

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 08:18 PM

He was shot in the brain from a shooter at the top of the 2nd landing. He wasn't running anywhere. The shooter was there and ready. Mr. Romero wasn't.
Please read the evidence. If we are to make rational opinions we should use the know evidence. Otherwise we're just contributing to make believe.

He was shot from the bottom steps first.
Nobody "came back" and shot him in the head. They just kept coming. :rolleyes:

moo

Jacobtk

01-18-2009, 08:19 PM

Gun powder residue WAS found on his clothes.

Gunpowder is difficult to remove from clothing. Even after several washings the residue would remain. It is also incredibly easy to transfer. If a person shot a gun and then shook your hand, the residue would transfer. If you hugged someone who had been shooting, the residue would transfer to your clothing. If you lay a recently used gun on your lap, it the residue on the gun would transfer. Even if you placed your clothes in with clothes with residue on them, it would transfer. Given that the boy used guns frequently (which is the state's position), it would be odd not to find gunpowder residue on his clothing. They should have checked his hands, but they did not, although Neckels acknowledged in her testimony that she was just a few feet from the boy and did not notice any dirt on his clothes or hands (which is what gunpowder residue looks to the naked eye).

Then the boy would have seen her , not the "white car" and he would have sang like a bird by now.

Assuming she was not in the car when it drove away, yes. If she was, then he would not have seen her or anyone else.

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 08:22 PM

Gunpowder is difficult to remove from clothing. Even after several washings the residue would remain. It is also incredibly easy to transfer. If a person shot a gun and then shook your hand, the residue would transfer. If you hugged someone who had been shooting, the residue would transfer to your clothing. If you lay a recently used gun on your lap, it the residue on the gun would transfer. Even if you placed your clothes in with clothes with residue on them, it would transfer. Given that the boy used guns frequently (which is the state's position), it would be odd not to find gunpowder residue on his clothing. They should have checked his hands, but they did not, although Neckels acknowledged in her testimony that she was just a few feet from the boy and did not notice any dirt on his clothes or hands (which is what gunpowder residue looks to the naked eye).

Assuming she was not in the car when it drove away, yes. If she was, then he would not have seen her or anyone else.

Seems to me she went back to the same store. Did she leave her jeep there go in the white car and she came back to get the jeep?

Hawk

01-18-2009, 08:23 PM

He was shot from the bottom steps first.
Nobody "came back" and shot him in the head. They just kept coming. :rolleyes:

moo

There's no evidence he was shot from below first, or shot from below at all. You watched a news report with a paid expert stating his opinion. None of that is in evidence!
The casings location, for now, prove someone 'came-back', just as the boy said. Can that be refuted? Of course it can. But first there must be a solid argument and some semblance of proof.
Not a TV expert in a 15 second clip.

Jacobtk

01-18-2009, 08:25 PM

He was shot in the brain from a shooter at the top of the 2nd landing. He wasn't running anywhere. The shooter was there and ready. Mr. Romero wasn't.

That makes no logical sense. If Romero was at the top of the landing and was shot going up the stairs, but the shooter was on the second landing there and ready, would that not mean that he would have passed the shooter?

Jacobtk

01-18-2009, 08:27 PM

Seems to me she went back to the same store. Did she leave her jeep there go in the white car and she came back to get the jeep?

It is possible. It would certainly confuse people if they saw her car still there.

Hawk

01-18-2009, 08:29 PM

Gunpowder is difficult to remove from clothing. Even after several washings the residue would remain. It is also incredibly easy to transfer. If a person shot a gun and then shook your hand, the residue would transfer. If you hugged someone who had been shooting, the residue would transfer to your clothing. If you lay a recently used gun on your lap, it the residue on the gun would transfer. Even if you placed your clothes in with clothes with residue on them, it would transfer. Given that the boy used guns frequently (which is the state's position), it would be odd not to find gunpowder residue on his clothing. They should have checked his hands, but they did not, although Neckels acknowledged in her testimony that she was just a few feet from the boy and did not notice any dirt on his clothes or hands (which is what gunpowder residue looks to the naked eye).

Assuming she was not in the car when it drove away, yes. If she was, then he would not have seen her or anyone else.

GSR is antiquated and easily refuted by modern technology. It's meaningless. No attorney in his right mind would bring this up in 2009. Even the county attorney in this case belittled it. It's a non-issue.

GentleBreeze

01-18-2009, 08:33 PM

GSR is antiquated and easily refuted by modern technology. It's meaningless. No attorney in his right mind would bring this up in 2009. Even the county attorney in this case belittled it. It's a non-issue.

I do think it will be entered but only along with other forensic evidence that supports it.

I am not sure how antiquated it is. It was front and center in the Phil Spector case last year that will soon be retried and I have seen it in so many other State murder cases that were committed by a firearm.

When did Whiting speak about the GSR, I must have missed that.

imo

Jacobtk

01-18-2009, 08:33 PM

Having read Guinn's report again, I find it even more difficult to believe Romero was shot first and then Romans unless there were two shooters. In order for Romeo to be taken by surprise, which is what the scene implies, the shooter would have had to either already be in the house or have come past Romans. However, it is not probable that Romans would not have heard the shots and more that he would have allowed the shooter to exit the home, go around him and shoot him as Romans headed towards the house.

Hawk

01-18-2009, 08:34 PM

That makes no logical sense. If Romero was at the top of the landing and was shot going up the stairs, but the shooter was on the second landing there and ready, would that not mean that he would have passed the shooter?

The 2nd landing is the top of the stairs! Upstairs! The 2nd floor! Last flight! End of the ascension!
The stairs go up to the 1st landing. 90 degree turn to the right. Second set of stairs. At the top of the second flight of stairs is the second landing, or hallway. End of steps. Head on top landing.

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 08:34 PM

There's no evidence he was shot from below first, or shot from below at all. You watched a news report with a paid expert stating his opinion. None of that is in evidence!
The casings location, for now, prove someone 'came-back', just as the boy said. Can that be refuted? Of course it can. But first there must be a solid argument and some semblance of proof.
Not a TV expert in a 15 second clip.

Knock knock

Keen is Arizona’s senior forensic pathologist.

GentleBreeze

01-18-2009, 08:38 PM

Hawk

01-18-2009, 08:39 PM

I do think it will be entered but only along with other forensic evidence that supports it.

I am not sure how antiquated it is. It was front and center in the Phil Spector case last year that will soon be retried and I have seen it in so many other State murder cases that were committed by a firearm.

When did Whiting speak about the GSR, I must have missed that.

imo

That was a year ago. Technology, thank God, moves at light speed compared to our tired court system. This stuff is old school.

Hawk

01-18-2009, 08:42 PM

Knock knock

Keen is Arizona’s senior forensic pathologist.

Knock knock. Keen ain't on the case. How do you know who the senior pathologist is in AZ? Cause you saw it on TV?

Jacobtk

01-18-2009, 08:44 PM

The 2nd landing is the top of the stairs! Upstairs! The 2nd floor! Last flight! End of the ascension!
The stairs go up to the 1st landing. 90 degree turn to the right. Second set of stairs. At the top of the second flight of stairs is the second landing, or hallway. End of steps. Head on top landing.

Different use of language there. I am used to labeling landings starting with the main floor and then working up (which would make the second floor the third landing). However, that still not make any logical sense. If the shooter was already at the top of the stairs, how could Romero be shot from behind so many times? How would he fall face first on the topmost stair instead of falling backwards if the shooter was right there as he came up the stairs?

The shooter was in the house and Tim didn't hear the shots.

That is not very probable. While rifles are not that loud, certainly someone only a few yards away would at least hear a few pops.

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 08:46 PM

Knock knock. Keen ain't on the case. How do you know who the senior pathologist is in AZ? Cause you saw it on TV?

Keen is Arizona’s senior forensic pathologist.

He said the shape of the wound on Romero’s back may indicate the assailant was slightly to the right and below Romero.

Romero was found face down on a flight of stairs leading to the second floor of his home.

That would place the gunman at the bottom of the staircase.

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/Autopsy-St-Johns-murder-victims-shot-in-the-head/gsb18gJlwkizzVprKFwW0A.cspx

GentleBreeze

01-18-2009, 08:48 PM

what is your deal? yes we do have two victims, along with the boy makes three. why are you so hard on this little boy? no matter what the evidence shows we are talking about an 9 year old boy's welfare. you know if evidence shows he did this , something horrible was happening to him. show some compassion for this little boy., will ya?

But how do we know something bad was happening to him? The truth is,we don't.

When I flip through the channels sometime and see these Nanny shows it alarms me that even little children can be in such an uncontrollable rage and having knock down hissy fits, over the slightest thing. At times I worry that their anger level is so high that they are going to have a heart attack or have an aneurysm burst.

Killers can murder for a myriad of reasons. We do not know what his reason was...... we just know he said he was angry with his dad about the step mom spanking him. Children can be highly impulsive and anger is a very big motivating factor when one commits violence imo. So no, imo, we do not know why he did this at all.

imoo

Jacobtk

01-18-2009, 08:48 PM

Why? Even the neighbors didnt hear but about 3 or 4 pops and we know there was 10 shots fired.

The neighbors were farther away and the sound would be muted by the house. Romans was right outside, so it is more likely than not that he heard the shots assuming he was not shot first.

Hawk

01-18-2009, 08:51 PM

Different use of language there. I am used to labeling landings starting with the main floor and then working up (which would make the second floor the third landing). However, that still not make any logical sense. If the shooter was already at the top of the stairs, how could Romero be shot from behind so many times? How would he fall face first on the topmost stair instead of falling backwards if the shooter was right there as he came up the stairs?

That is not very probable. While rifles are not that loud, certainly someone only a few yards away would at least hear a few pops.

We don't know that he was shot from behind. The shoulder shot could have been from above after he was down.
He would have fallen forward because his knees buckled and a bodies mass is forward.
There is no 'backward force' from a .22 bullet to drive a body rearward (like a shotgun blast or a large bore bullet might have).

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 08:55 PM

explain how the bullet ended up in his abdomen. Last I checked the abdomen is BELOW the chest.

Ask the senior forensic pathologist. He heads all of them in AZ.

Hawk

01-18-2009, 08:55 PM

Keen is Arizona’s senior forensic pathologist.

He said the shape of the wound on Romero’s back may indicate the assailant was slightly to the right and below Romero.

Romero was found face down on a flight of stairs leading to the second floor of his home.

That would place the gunman at the bottom of the staircase.

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/Autopsy-St-Johns-murder-victims-shot-in-the-head/gsb18gJlwkizzVprKFwW0A.cspx

Key word here is "May". Dr. Keen wasn't testifying under oath when he made these spur of the moment comments to a news person. He's not part of the case. I'm sure the doctors, who are actually part of the case, have made their opinions known.

Jacobtk

01-18-2009, 08:57 PM

Maybe he shot them because he wanted to live with his mother? Maybe he didn't like the rules and believed his dad was too hard on him? I don't know. Maybe he just snapped? I just know it would be a huge mistake if wanting to live with mom was his reason to reward him by patting him on the head and sending him off to her.

Children that age do not think like that. At 8 years old a child barely has the ability to understand the concept of death. Their perception of time is distorted. Their understand of people's motivation is simplistic. Any child psychiatrist will state that. They simply lack the ability to form the adult intent you mention above.

Hawk

01-18-2009, 08:59 PM

Keen is Arizona’s senior forensic pathologist.

He said the shape of the wound on Romero’s back may indicate the assailant was slightly to the right and below Romero.

Romero was found face down on a flight of stairs leading to the second floor of his home.

That would place the gunman at the bottom of the staircase.

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/Autopsy-St-Johns-murder-victims-shot-in-the-head/gsb18gJlwkizzVprKFwW0A.cspx

Where is your link to Keen? He doesn't even work for the state of AZ!

Hawk

01-18-2009, 09:02 PM

If we can't address the known evidence let's just make it up as we go. That's easier and more fun anyway.

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 09:02 PM

Where is your link to Keen? He doesn't even work for the state of AZ!

Can you read?
http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/Autopsy-St-Johns-murder-victims-shot-in-the-head/gsb18gJlwkizzVprKFwW0A.cspx

Hawk

01-18-2009, 09:06 PM

Can you read?
http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/Autopsy-St-Johns-murder-victims-shot-in-the-head/gsb18gJlwkizzVprKFwW0A.cspx

I watch the news constantly. Much of it is overanxious reporters and media loving 'experts'.
Where's your proof that Dr. Keen is the preimminent pathologist in the state oz AZ. Sorry, a TV link doesn't do it.
Knock, knock.

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 09:14 PM

I watch the news constantly. Much of it is overanxious reporters and media loving experts.
Where's your proof that Dr. Keen is the preimminent pathologist in the state oz AZ. Sorry, a TV link doesn't do it.
Knock, knock.

Knock knock

http://www.healthgrades.com/directory_search/physician/profiles/forensic-pathology/alphas11.cfm

Jacobtk

01-18-2009, 09:15 PM

This boy understood death. He dad taught him to shoot until dead to prevent suffering. He knows death. He knows his dad isn't coming back...ever.

Knowing of death and understanding it are two very different things. My 8 year old godson knows that his foster brother died by suicide two years ago. He knows he will not come back. He does not, however, have any idea what it actually means to die nor does he really seem to understand the finality of death. He accepts that death happens, but it does not really click for him. The same thing was true for my cousin when my uncle died nine years ago. He knew my uncle was dead, but he did not understand what it meant to die.

Without knowing the boy, there is no reason to assume he is any different from other children that age or that he has adult knowledge of death. Children simply do not understand these kinds of things. There are plenty of articles available (http://kidshealth.org/parent/emotions/feelings/death.html) that explain this.

He may not fully understand other people's motivation but he certainly is capable of having his own. We just don't have a clear picture of what that was.

Being capable of having motivations does not mean a person will be or is motivated to kill. It is a fairly steep jump in logic to assume that children think like adults. You seem to keep making that jump, despite never reaching your intended landing.

Hawk

01-18-2009, 09:17 PM

Knock knock

http://www.healthgrades.com/directory_search/physician/profiles/forensic-pathology/alphas11.cfm

That link says nothing. Try again.

GentleBreeze

01-18-2009, 09:18 PM

If we can't address the known evidence let's just make it up as we go. That's easier and more fun anyway.

In the article it did say that Dr. Keen had read the autopsy reports. I do think he looked at the actual reports.

While I think you are right about so many things on this one thing we continue to disagree, respectfully, I may add, which is refreshing.

I do at first think that the shooter was hiding somewhere in the vicinity at the bottom of the stairs. I even wonder if there was a closet to the right close by the stairway. I continue to believe those below and behind shots were the ones to the elbow and back. The .22 bullet can spin all sorts of places once it enters the body and it may have hit something that spun the direct of the bullet into the abdomen. We don't know if it was the upper abdomen or the lower.

I think he then went outside and shot Romans and went back into see if his father was a little bit alive and probably at first did not get close when he fired the one above the left ear. It will be interesting to know if Vinnie's left side of his head was more accessible than the right side which may have been closer to the wall. Then when the shooter thought he had full control over Vinnie he stepped up closer to do the final shot.

I don't think he had a problem at all with getting around his father's body to get to the second landing.

If we had the trajectory data of the entry wounds then we could ascertain what happened more closely.

IMO

Hawk

01-18-2009, 09:24 PM

In the article it did say that Dr. Keen had read the autopsy reports. I do think he looked at the actual reports.

While I think you are right about so many things on this one thing we continue to disagree, respectfully, I may add, which is refreshing.

I do at first think that the shooter was hiding somewhere in the vicinity at the bottom of the stairs. I even wonder if there was a closet to the right close by the stairway. I continue to believe those below and behind shots were the ones to the elbow and back. The .22 bullet can spin all sorts of places once it enters the body and it may have hit something that spun the direct of the bullet into the abdomen. We don't know if it was the upper abdomen or the lower.

I think he then went outside and shot Romans and went back into see if his father was a little bit alive and probably at first did not get close when he fired the one above the left ear. It will be interesting to know if Vinnie's left side of his head was more accessible than the right side which may have been closer to the wall. Then when the shooter thought he had full control over Vinnie he stepped up closer to do the final shot.

I don't think he had a problem at all with getting around his father's body to get to the second landing.

If we had the trajectory data of the entry wounds then we could ascertain what happened more closely.

IMO

At least we're moving forward. We can agree to disagree. I'm convinced that all four shots to Mr. Romero were from the top landing. Guess we won't know until the re-enactment.

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 09:25 PM

That link says nothing. Try again.

You prove to me who AZ's senior Forensic Pathologist is then. I KNOW who it is!

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 09:27 PM

Knock, Knock - He's there:smile:

http://www.healthgrades.com/directory_search/physician/profiles/dr-md-reports/Dr-Philip-Keen-MD-2C9DBA05.cfm

Seems we are not allowed to know what we are talking about on this board.

moo

Hawk

01-18-2009, 09:27 PM

Knock, Knock - He's there:smile:

http://www.healthgrades.com/directory_search/physician/profiles/dr-md-reports/Dr-Philip-Keen-MD-2C9DBA05.cfm

Where does it say he's the 'preeminent pathologist' in Arizona. Or even that he works for the state? It's an advertisement!!!!!

GentleBreeze

01-18-2009, 09:28 PM

Hawk

01-18-2009, 09:28 PM

Should be interesting.

But not nearly as who pulled the trigger.

And that's the point.

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 09:31 PM

Seems your doctor Keen likes GSR from your article:

Doctor Keen says they define “close range”, in part, by determining if there was any gun power residue on the victim’s skin.

He said since there is no gun powder residue it is not in “close range” which would mean the gunman was at least two to two-and-a-half feet away.

So the boy was CLOSER than TWO and a HALF FEET AWAY from the men atleast for TWO of the shots. They must be the head shots that ended their suffering. I think I like your Doctor Keen:wub:

What makes you think they were the head wounds?

Jacobtk

01-18-2009, 09:31 PM

I never said children think like adults.

You did not, however, the way you present your opinion of how this boy thinks demonstrates that you are applying adult reasoning to the mind of a then 8 year old. Children that age simply cannot form intent as you have described.

This child knew what death was, he's killed animals.

This child knew that putting a gun to a man's head & pulling the trigger would result in death. He knew it was wrong. He intended to kill them both.

Again, knowing that animals and people can die is not the same as understanding death. As for the boy's intent, it has not been proven that he did, let alone intended to do, anything. Until it is proven, he is innocent until proven guilty. Working on the assumption that he did it means you will ignore anything that suggests that he did not. Operating on reasonable doubt, however, means that until something that reasonably implicates the boy is presented, he did not do it.

Hawk

01-18-2009, 09:33 PM

Or Hawk, the shot to the left side of his head was when Vinnie tried to look back to see who was shooting after he had been hit in the elbow and that may have been done when the shooter was below him.

The main wall was to the right of him wasn't it? so he would look back to his left it seems to me.

JMO

There are solid walls on both sides. The front door faces north. The first set of stairs face east (between the laundry room and kitchen), then there is a landing with the 2nd set of stairs facing west. It was hard for my pea brain to visualize the configuration until I drew a little picture. The stairs go 180 degrees from the 1st floor.

Hawk

01-18-2009, 09:37 PM

You prove to me who AZ's senior Forensic Pathologist is then. I KNOW who it is!

You brought it up Ms. knock-knock!
Senior, which you haven't proven whatsoever, just means oldest at the job anyway. Doesn't prove competency.

GentleBreeze

01-18-2009, 09:41 PM

There are solid walls on both sides. The front door faces north. The first set of stairs face east (between the laundry room and kitchen), then there is a landing with the 2nd set of stairs facing west. It was hard for my pea brain to visualize the configuration until I drew a little picture. The stairs go 180 degrees from the 1st floor.

It is confusing. Does the kitchen sit on the left of the stairs on the right? Do we know if they may have had a hall closet or pantry somewhere close to the stairs also?

Ok so just for speculation...do you think the shooter could have possibly been standing in the laundry room with the door just cracked enough so he could see Vinnie but Vinnie wouldn't notice him?

I was just guessing about turning Vinnie turning left to look but for me it is much easier to turn my head to the left than to the right which seems more difficult and doesn't give me as much range.

imoo

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 09:43 PM

You brought it up Ms. knock-knock!
Senior, which you haven't proven whatsoever, just means oldest at the job anyway. Doesn't prove competency.

You have just proven to me that I no longer need to read your posts.

Click!

mina

01-18-2009, 09:48 PM

Interesting comments - bet this gets locked down soon:
http://axtonromero.blogspot.com/2008/11/tiffany-romero-in-town.html

Jacobtk

01-18-2009, 09:55 PM

I'm still waiting for a reasonable scenario that fits with him not being the shooter. I haven't heard one.

Eight years olds know shooting, stabbing or bashing a person's head in is wrong. Eight years olds know it would likely result in death.

If they were clueless there would be mountains of victims.

I think this best demonstrates the lack of objectivity I spoke of. It is because of absolutisms like the above comments that organizations like the Innocence Project must exist.

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 09:57 PM

Interesting comments - bet this gets locked down soon:
http://axtonromero.blogspot.com/2008/11/tiffany-romero-in-town.html
It isn't going anywhere.
They know she is guilty.

I wonder if Reed will stay with her? LOL

moo

Good_Gawd

01-18-2009, 10:00 PM

Wow, she certainly has a strange fan club:scared:

People talk, and people listen.

moo

Hawk

01-18-2009, 10:04 PM

It is confusing. Does the kitchen sit on the left of the stairs on the right? Do we know if they may have had a hall closet or pantry somewhere close to the stairs also?

Ok so just for speculation...do you think the shooter could have possibly been standing in the laundry room with the door just cracked enough so he could see Vinnie but Vinnie wouldn't notice him?

I was just guessing about turning Vinnie turning left to look but for me it is much easier to turn my head to the left than to the right which seems more difficult and doesn't give me as much range.

imoo

At first I was 100 percent convinced the little boy didn't do it. Then came the reports and casings evidence. Being dense and simple minded I had to draw my own little diagram.

Draw a square on a piece of paper with the right vertical line slightly shorter than the left vertical line. Draw a vertical line from the top of the square to the bottom in the middle. This is the stairway separation.
Now draw eight steps on the left (which is going up the stairs). Draw a landing which allows for the 2nd set of stairs, then draw seven steps on the right of the center line going up.
To the left of the square going up is north (front door). Then there is the 1st landing. In order to make the turn you must face south. The second set of stairs face west. All three of the spent casings (on the stairs) were found against the south (rifle ejection side) wall (to the right) in both directions. Two were found at the 2nd landing. There are solid walls on both sides.
Mr. Romero's head was on the top landing. His feet were on the 3rd step from the 1st landing (where casings F and U [4th step] were found). Two were found on the 2nd landing in the upstairs hallway.