1-15 - 1/17

[bkwits]

Starting new thread. Come on over. :seeya:

:seeya:

[GentleBreeze]

I am bringing my post over from the other thread.


01-15-2009, 10:33 AM
GentleBreeze
Registered User Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Nestled In Southern Hospitality
Posts: 9,984

Quote:
Originally Posted by HotNostril
Yes, it is. It's also consistent with where they found the boys gun. The boys gun was the murder weapon.

Reply:

Yes, I also think this boy's gun was the murder weapon.

Also I think many are giving the two dead victims way too much credit on their supposedly abilities that day.

While we would like to believe that we would be fully prepared in case of a violent attack upon us from right out of the blue many times that is not the case.]

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/mental_preparation.htm


This massively complex cocktail of factors is collectively known as the adrenal stress response.

We change in a crisis -- and not always for the better. Our physical and mental acuity are greatly reduced and we are functioning in a very primitive and raw state.

Not only is functioning more difficult, but our perceptions are altered. That is to say our internal 'reality' may not be an accurate reflection of the external 'actuality.' Unfortunately, in this condition what we are going to be reacting to is our internal reality.

The adrenal response can easily create two totally different problems. One is that it renders you incapable of action. Two is it causes you to go berserk on someone ... neither is good.

imo
__________________

[Good_Gawd]

Well you two posters can think it was the murder weapon all you want. I'll believe it when the further testing comes back. If in fact they ever get what they want from that testing. LOL

[JD1974]

Wonder how many times they will have to test it before then?? Second opinion, 3rd, 4th?

[Good_Gawd]

Wonder how many times they will have to test it before then?? Second opinion, 3rd, 4th?

Until someone will say it was the murder weapon. moo :lol::lol::lol:

[wolfi_2]

Good morning folks! I am here in sunny Chicago-so what if it IS 14 below zero and negative 30 with the wind chill! LOL! My kids are home from school today and I am "working from home."

Anyone know where Justice Dawg has been? Haven't seen her post in quite some time and miss her!


Also-anyone know if there has been a ruling from the appeals court on dropping the 1st charge?

I'm still praying for this little guy. He didn't do this!

Only a new entry from the 13th January, but I don't know what it mean's

http://www.cofad1.state.az.us/casefiles/sa/sa080294.pdf

[JD1974]

iamithink that is a really good question. Could be Tim was walking back from a white car and was shot....

Also hopefully someone did take samples from every blood spot outside.

[Good_Gawd]

I read on that Apache site yesterday that the defense asked if the Grandmother (Liz?) could visit the child everyday while his mother is away. Did the judge OK that?

[suzanne]

Good morning folks! I am here in sunny Chicago-so what if it IS 14 below zero and negative 30 with the wind chill! LOL! My kids are home from school today and I am "working from home."

Anyone know where Justice Dawg has been? Haven't seen her post in quite some time and miss her!


Also-anyone know if there has been a ruling from the appeals court on dropping the 1st charge?

I'm still praying for this little guy. He didn't do this!

I miss Justice Dawg too.I'm still praying for this little guy too.

[suzanne]

Only a new entry from the 13th January, but I don't know what it mean's

http://www.cofad1.state.az.us/casefiles/sa/sa080294.pdf

Thank you for the link.

[mina]

Only a new entry from the 13th January, but I don't know what it mean's

http://www.cofad1.state.az.us/casefiles/sa/sa080294.pdf

I'm not a lawyer, but I found this explanation here:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070710194323AAdJAKG

It means the judge is not issuing a ruling immediately.

Instead, the judge is going to consider the matter, read the legal briefs filed by the parties, have the clerk do some research on the legal issues, and then eventually come to a conclusion.

"Under advisement" is the formal way of saying he'll get back to you.

[Good_Gawd]

Under Advisement

meaning: deliberation or consideration.

[Good_Gawd]

IIRC-it wasn't Grandma Romero (Liz) they were asking to visit, it was Eryn's mother. Liz threw the kid under the bus...why would he want to see her?
:thumbdown:

Oh, I don't know. It just says Grandmother.

[mina]

Good morning folks! I am here in sunny Chicago-so what if it IS 14 below zero and negative 30 with the wind chill! LOL! My kids are home from school today and I am "working from home."


I'm up in Madison, WI, so I'm shivering along with you.

Thanks for that Wolfi! I think it just means they are considering the petition at this time but have not ruled on it yet.

What is to consider? The judge doesn't want to rule on it unless he has determined competency. If the boy is deemed incompetent on one charge, he should be incompetent on the other, right?

This prosecutor is so overreaching here it makes me sick to my stomach. Basically, they just want insurance to try the kid on one of the charges when he is older. :unsure:
What's with all these wimpy judges being too afraid to make a decision (while a little boy sits in jail)?

[wolfi_2]

I still don’t think the boy did it; there is so much impossibility in the whole story, that he, in my opinion, can’t be the shooter.
But, if they want this case closed fast, because everybody without the boy’s attorney doesn’t look good, they should make such a good deal that nobody can say “NO!” then the boy can be questioned by a specialist without any fear for the boy. They would get the answers they need, if he did it, if he was it alone, and the motive for the shootings if he did it. That’s my personal opinion and I think for all involved party’s there best interest. Because the boy need urgent some help, he can’t wait much longer he should speak free with everyone he like especially with his mom, it’s gruesome when he can’t speak free and his mom must also take care in that what she told to him or ask him. He is too young to destroy his live more as it happened always.
My personal, of course European point of view, is that this boy should never have seen any handcuffs and shackles, or any jail cell, guilty or not. I give the mother even if she wasn’t involved in the shootings a high amount of guilt also; she was beside his dad responsible for the boy, so she had to make sure together with his dad that the boy never gets onto any weapon without supervision! She leaves the boy alone after school why not pick the boy up before she went shopping?

[suzanne]

This has been bothering me.What items were found by Vincent Romero's body or on him?There were cigarrettes found near him?I wonder why?He didn't smoke did he?

[Kara]

And two shots to the chest in almost the same location - how does that happen with a single shot? The guy stays standing and waits while you reload? No matter how fast you are - that just doesn't fit!I brought this post over from the other thread. I think this is an extremely compelling argument.

We are supposed to believe that the first shot incapacitated VR so that he could not overpower the boy and take away the gun...yet he remained upright while the child reloaded and shot him one more time???

You can't have it both ways IMO.

[bkwits]

I have to agree with Officer Neckles here. I didn't see any of those signs of "not telling the truth" either...unless you count the part toward the end....:cool:



The part toward the end -- when he covered his face? I thought that was a sign of lying.
IMO

[Good_Gawd]

I'm up in Madison, WI, so I'm shivering along with you.


What's with all these wimpy judges being too afraid to make a decision (while a little boy sits in jail)?

I have never seen an appellate court rule the same day. Scott Peterson case, Geregos took numerous things to the Appellate courts, they never ruled the same day.

[Jacobtk]

The missing bullet may be in them. There were 2 people doing the shooting, imo, one inside, one outside.
The LE believed the bullet may be what went through the security door, but the bullet was never found.

The two shooters theory also would explain why the neighbors only heard on series of shots. Granted, the sound of rifle fire may not travel that far, but it seems unlikely that people would only hear one series of shots. This is why the police should have conducted a ballistics report before claiming that the boy's gun was used. If it turns out that even one of the casings is from another gun, the state has a huge problem.

[suzanne]

The part toward the end -- when he covered his face? I thought that was a sign of lying.
IMO

Michael Crowe did this when he couldn't handle the interrogators questions any more.

[suzanne]

The two shooters theory also would explain why the neighbors only heard on series of shots. Granted, the sound of rifle fire may not travel that far, but it seems unlikely that people would only hear one series of shots. This is why the police should have conducted a ballistics report before claiming that the boy's gun was used. If it turns out that even one of the casings is from another gun, the state has a huge problem.I agree with you.

[mina]

I have never seen an appellate court rule the same day. Scott Peterson case, Geregos took numerous things to the Appellate courts, they never ruled the same day.

Thanks, that's good to know. I was assuming we'd actually hear a decision on the 13th. Just tired of waiting...

[Details]

Tim was shot in the chest, not VR.

And the killer likely took a few seconds between some shots - as when he's lining up the shot he wants to take - and of course, fast shots when someone is coming at him and he wants to take them down.

[GentleBreeze]

I brought this post over from the other thread. I think this is an extremely compelling argument.

We are supposed to believe that the first shot incapacitated VR so that he could not overpower the boy and take away the gun...yet he remained upright while the child reloaded and shot him one more time???

You can't have it both ways IMO.

How do we know the exact position of the victim when they were shot or even where the shooter stood when they fired each time?

As far as I am aware the trajectory data has not been released to the media.

The ME stated that two of the shots fired at VR came from below him when he was up on the stairs. Imo those shots were to his elbow and his back. I don't think it would be feasible that Romero would then turn around to face or confront the shooter knowing he would be shot again, this time frontally. Romero had no weapon. The shooter did.

imoo

[suzanne]

well.I keep this little boy in my prayers and I pray the therapist is his friend and helps him and doesn't hurt him in any way.

[ExPI]

Gentlebreeze sid:
The ME stated that two of the shots fired at VR came from below him when he was up on the stairs.

Do you have a link to the ME's statement? I thought VR was shot in the left bicep and ribs, front to back; two head shots; and a back wound through the right shoulder blade and downward into the abdomen.

[Cherishlove]

IIRC-it wasn't Grandma Romero (Liz) they were asking to visit, it was Eryn's mother. Liz threw the kid under the bus...why would he want to see her?
:thumbdown:I was wondering about his Grandparents (dad's parents) I thought and hoped they were there for the boy, this makes me sick inside if they did this, are you sure if so what kind of people would do such a thing? I also heard his Step Mom is not there for him either, I can't comprehend that.

[FurthurBB]

I am bringing my post over from the other thread.


01-15-2009, 10:33 AM
GentleBreeze
Registered User Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Nestled In Southern Hospitality
Posts: 9,984

Quote:
Originally Posted by HotNostril
Yes, it is. It's also consistent with where they found the boys gun. The boys gun was the murder weapon.

Reply:

Yes, I also think this boy's gun was the murder weapon.

Also I think many are giving the two dead victims way too much credit on their supposedly abilities that day.

While we would like to believe that we would be fully prepared in case of a violent attack upon us from right out of the blue many times that is not the case.]

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/mental_preparation.htm


This massively complex cocktail of factors is collectively known as the adrenal stress response.

We change in a crisis -- and not always for the better. Our physical and mental acuity are greatly reduced and we are functioning in a very primitive and raw state.

Not only is functioning more difficult, but our perceptions are altered. That is to say our internal 'reality' may not be an accurate reflection of the external 'actuality.' Unfortunately, in this condition what we are going to be reacting to is our internal reality.

The adrenal response can easily create two totally different problems. One is that it renders you incapable of action. Two is it causes you to go berserk on someone ... neither is good.

imo
__________________

I am glad that you did because I do not agree with all this site is saying and I am a biologist. In a flight or fight response your brain function is not at all lacking, just your digestive and excretory systems. Sometimes people cannot think logically because of panic, but, many people can think much more clearly. It is good to write that it may happen on a self defense site, but, relying on the site alone gives the wrong impression of the actual physical changes that happen. IMO

[bkwits]

I think that is when they got him to say he shot them. So maybe he was lying when he said he shot them?

Exactly. :thumbsup:

[GentleBreeze]

Do you have a link to the ME's statement? I thought VR was shot in the left bicep and ribs, front to back; two head shots; and a back wound through the right shoulder blade and downward into the abdomen.

Here ya go.

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/Autopsy-St-Johns-murder-victims-shot-in-the-head/gsb18gJlwkizzVprKFwW0A.cspx

Pima County Pathologist Cynthia Porterfield wrote “Examination of the entrance wound reveals no evidence of close range firing” for three of Romero’s gunshot wounds and five of Roman’s gunshot wounds.

This also shows that one close up shot was fired into each victim.

[Cherishlove]

I still don’t think the boy did it; there is so much impossibility in the whole story, that he, in my opinion, can’t be the shooter.
But, if they want this case closed fast, because everybody without the boy’s attorney doesn’t look good, they should make such a good deal that nobody can say “NO!” then the boy can be questioned by a specialist without any fear for the boy. They would get the answers they need, if he did it, if he was it alone, and the motive for the shootings if he did it. That’s my personal opinion and I think for all involved party’s there best interest. Because the boy need urgent some help, he can’t wait much longer he should speak free with everyone he like especially with his mom, it’s gruesome when he can’t speak free and his mom must also take care in that what she told to him or ask him. He is too young to destroy his live more as it happened always.
My personal, of course European point of view, is that this boy should never have seen any handcuffs and shackles, or any jail cell, guilty or not. I give the mother even if she wasn’t involved in the shootings a high amount of guilt also; she was beside his dad responsible for the boy, so she had to make sure together with his dad that the boy never gets onto any weapon without supervision! She leaves the boy alone after school why not pick the boy up before she went shopping?His Real Mom was on her way home she lives in another State but the Step Mother is at fault because she is the only adult left alive that lived there, she left him alone and knew about the gun situation I'm sure also from the sounds of it she's not even standing by his side, I don't know that for certain but it's what I've heard, does anyone know if this is true it just really bothers me is his Step Mom and Grandparents aren't there for him, I just find that extremely strange.

[muska]

His Real Mom was on her way home she lives in another State but the Step Mother is at fault because she is the only adult left alive that lived there, she left him alon and knew about the gun situation I'm sure also from the sounds of it she's not even standing by his side, I don't know that for certain but it's what I've heard, does anyone know if this is true it just really bothers me is his Step Mom and Grandparents arn't there for him, I just find that extremely strange.

I'm quite sure it's the boy's paternal grandmother who visits him. She asked for permission at the first court hearing. My gut feeling is that she loves him and he loves her....and I hope I'm right. I think Eryn's mom lives in Mississippi.

[wolfi_2]

His Real Mom was on her way home she lives in another State but the Step Mother is at fault because she is the only adult left alive that lived there, she left him alone and knew about the gun situation I'm sure also from the sounds of it she's not even standing by his side, I don't know that for certain but it's what I've heard, does anyone know if this is true it just really bothers me is his Step Mom and Grandparents aren't there for him, I just find that extremely strange.

Yes, I know, I forgot the step mom to mention, I don’t mean the real mom, Responsible are the parent’s he normally live with, and who had the custody for the boy. -My fault!

[ExPI]

Thanks, Gentlebreeze. I see we again have a problem with the police report. I was reading the Guinn report that Iamithink has kindly posted. This case is a total mess!

[Kara]

Tim was shot in the chest, not VR.

And the killer likely took a few seconds between some shots - as when he's lining up the shot he wants to take - and of course, fast shots when someone is coming at him and he wants to take them down.
Whoops, my mistake. I hope I didn't confuse too many people by swapping victim's wounds.

[dgfred]

This is taken from a transcript:
An interview with Detective Nickel and Mr. Brewer.

BB: Wha, how would you characterize his, his emotional state, fer the majority of the, of the interview?
DN: I wasn’t there at the first interview.
BB: No-no. For the majority of the, of the interview that you did…
DN: Of the second, interview?
BB: Right, right.
DN: Um, calm, um, not nervous, I was looking fer signs, I was looking for signs of, of, him lying. Because we knew he was. And, and, and I’ve been trained ta look fer those signs and, um, I wasn’t seeing anything, I mean, no, he just, kind of, swung his legs ‘n, kind of played with his fingers a little bit but he didn’t show any of the, the, the typical, I’m not telling the truth signs.

I added the bold. the other officer was not trained in this. why did she go after the boy so hard?


"I was looking for signs of, of, him lying. Because we knew he was."

***** How in the world did they KNOW he was lying????

[bkwits]

I had a visit from my sun this morning. He is very close in size to Vince Romero. My son is 5'11" and weighs about 175. Son had on Carrhart overalls because he came to shovel out my driveway. I couldn't resist. I had him to lay down on my basement stairway near the top. He obliged me. My stairs are very similar to the Romero stairs except it a single flight of stairs with 12 steps. There are walls on each side and a railing, and carpeting. The staircase is 36" wide.

On my stairs, it would prob be easy enough for an adult to step around the body, more difficult for a small child, especially at the top of the stairs.

My son who has been a carpenter, and carpenter contractor for 25 years says that not all codes call for 36" stairs, some are as narrow as 32". He has worked in Tex., Kan., Col., MO, an IL.

That is just FWIW.

Note: He says I'm turning into Jessica Fletcher (Murder She Wrote)

[Cherishlove]

I'm quite sure it's the boy's paternal grandmother who visits him. She asked for permission at the first court hearing. My gut feeling is that she loves him and he loves her....and I hope I'm right. I think Eryn's mom lives in Mississippi. I hope so someone else on thie post said they threw him under the bus?

[muska]

I hope so someone else on thie post said they threw him under the bus?

I think that Vincent's sister visits as well....at least, she asked for permission.

The grandmother made her now well known comments while she was likely in a state of shock. We haven't heard anything from her since.

Quite a while ago, I did see Mike Watkiss, Channel 3, reporting that the Romero family was grieving but that as the boy is their grandson, they were not interested in punishment. Watkiss, at the time, thought that the Romans' family wanted something called justice. Now even the Romans' family spokesperson has said that you can only want the best for the boy.

[ExPI]

In the video Senior forensic pathologist Phillip Keane says about the back wound, "The salent weapon would have been further to the right, behind and somewhat lower than the point that it struck in the back."

[Good_Gawd]

It would be nice to have a copy of the autopsy report, not a news reporter's summary. Summaries sometimes leave out pertinent information. Guninn's report also states he took photos during the autopsy. His report comes from actually attending the autopsy.

I think the video sums it up pretty well.

[Good_Gawd]

In the video Senior forensic pathologist Phillip Keane says about the back wound, "The salent weapon would have been further to the right, behind and somewhat lower than the point that it struck in the back."

What does that mean?

[Good_Gawd]

I had a visit from my sun this morning. He is very close in size to Vince Romero. My son is 5'11" and weighs about 175. Son had on Carrhart overalls because he came to shovel out my driveway. I couldn't resist. I had him to lay down on my basement stairway near the top. He obliged me. My stairs are very similar to the Romero stairs except it a single flight of stairs with 12 steps. There are walls on each side and a railing, and carpeting. The staircase is 36" wide.

On my stairs, it would prob be easy enough for an adult to step around the body, more difficult for a small child, especially at the top of the stairs.

My son who has been a carpenter, and carpenter contractor for 25 years says that not all codes call for 36" stairs, some are as narrow as 32". He has worked in Tex., Kan., Col., MO, an IL.

That is just FWIW.

Note: He says I'm turning into Jessica Fletcher (Murder She Wrote)

I Love it! :lol::lol::lol:

[Good_Gawd]

I'm quite sure it's the boy's paternal grandmother who visits him. She asked for permission at the first court hearing. My gut feeling is that she loves him and he loves her....and I hope I'm right. I think Eryn's mom lives in Mississippi.

I thought the aunt that visits was Amanda, Eryn's sister. :confused:

[Good_Gawd]

"I was looking for signs of, of, him lying. Because we knew he was."

***** How in the world did they KNOW he was lying????

I can see where they are lying. :tongue:

[Perplexed1]

IIRC-it wasn't Grandma Romero (Liz) they were asking to visit, it was Eryn's mother. Liz threw the kid under the bus...why would he want to see her?
:thumbdown:

Maybe she said that 'cause she was covering for grandpa! :huh:

[Good_Gawd]

Maybe she said that 'cause she was covering for grandpa! :huh:

They are divorced. :confused:

[Good_Gawd]

The two shooters theory also would explain why the neighbors only heard on series of shots. Granted, the sound of rifle fire may not travel that far, but it seems unlikely that people would only hear one series of shots. This is why the police should have conducted a ballistics report before claiming that the boy's gun was used. If it turns out that even one of the casings is from another gun, the state has a huge problem.

I think they do have major problems, but who am I to say. :smile:

Have you ever seen a case where ballistics took this long to match a gun to bullets?

[muska]

I do now see that Tiffany and Liz had requested permission as well as the aunt from Panama. not sure if any actually visited, but I remember them saying he waved at a relative who had come in from out of the country. I would imagine that would be the aunt from Panama, but just a guess.

I thought we were talking about when Tiffany was going to be gone, she wanted either the grandmother (her mother) to visit or the aunt (on her side.)

Am I totally confused?

I really do not think there is any love between Liz and Eryn or Tiffany and Eryn, but I could certainly be wrong. I am just guessing at this point.

Mr. Brewer asked for the grandmother to visit while Eryn was out of town. I'm pretty sure he was talking about VRs mother, Liz. I think she's been visiting all along.

My impression is that Liz, Eryn and Tiffany may all have some problems with each other. If so, it would be nice if Liz and Eryn could work through whatever issues they might have for the sake of the child. If that's not possible, then I guess the mother has to do whatever she decides is best for CR.

I think Eryn's mother lives in Mississippi which means she is not able to visit the boy.

[Perplexed1]

Michael Crowe did this when he couldn't handle the interrogators questions any more.

He knew he wasn't supposed to have the guns, and was in trouble if he got one, even for protection, after seeing commotion.

[muska]

I thought the aunt that visits was Amanda, Eryn's sister. :confused:

The aunt from the first hearing was a Romero.

[muska]

Where is Justice Dawg!!!!!

[wolfi_2]

Where is Justice Dawg!!!!!


Not online, since 13th January

[wolfi_2]

I just like the last comments

"….they punished me for it!"

[Details]

He may have been shot first in the left arm as he was going up stairs, then he may have turned with his right shoulder was facing the top of the stairs, then he was shot in the right shoulder blade which desended down towards the chest and ending towards the abdomin. Then shot in the head which did him in and he collapsed face down.

It would take two shooters to do that.It would take something faster than a singleshot to do that.

[Good_Gawd]

Yes, I agree. I also believe there had to be more than one shooter. The boy said he saw someone go into the house when he saw the white car.

Those men could have been being shot at the same time.
That would explain the timeline. :biggrin:

[wolfi_2]

huh??? what last comments?



Sorry I’m on dial up in the moment, so the line broke and I have to dial in again, I would just edit my post to copy the link in. Here is the link.

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20235383&brd=2264&pag=797&dept_id=505965&startrow=1&maxrows=10

[Good_Gawd]

Sorry I’m on dial up in the moment, so the line broke and I have to dial in again, I would just edit my post to copy the link in. Here is the link.

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20235383&brd=2264&pag=797&dept_id=505965&startrow=1&maxrows=10


I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND make me really think!

They should make that into a poem!

[muska]

It would take something faster than a singleshot to do that.

Does an automatic weapon like the Mossberg always shoot fast or can the shooter use it to shoot slowly as in indiviual timed shots? I read that the Mossberg can "if desired be used as a single shot weapon,"but I don't know exactly what that means. I am just wondering if the Mossberg could have made timed popping noises or not.

[Details]

The Mossburg isn't some machine gun, I'm sure it can be used to shoot as fast or slow as you like. It's just going to fire once for every trigger pull, without requiring a reload inbetween (for 10 shots, anyway).

[Jacobtk]

Have you ever seen a case where ballistics took this long to match a gun to bullets?

No. This is the first time I have ever seen it take nearly three months for evidence to be examined. This is also the first time I have ever seen a prosecutor release an incomplete evidence analysis report. It is anyone's guess just what the state is doing. However, I would suspect that they are either stalling until the competency hearing or that the evidence reports point to another person along or without the boy or to no one at all.

[muska]

The Mossburg isn't some machine gun, I'm sure it can be used to shoot as fast or slow as you like. It's just going to fire once for every trigger pull, without requiring a reload inbetween (for 10 shots, anyway).

Thanks you!!

[Good_Gawd]

Does an automatic weapon like the Mossberg always shoot fast or can the shooter use it to shoot slowly as in indiviual timed shots? I read that the Mossberg can "if desired be used as a single shot weapon,"but I don't know exactly what that means. I am just wondering if the Mossberg could have made timed popping noises or not.


With the magazine in a Mossberg you just shoot and the casing ejects to the right before the next shot. No reload.
It uses .22 bullets.
Yes, imo it sounds lke pops and you can move and shoot again, which would cause be a delay in shots also.

[Details]

No. This is the first time I have ever seen it take nearly three months for evidence to be examined. This is also the first time I have ever seen a prosecutor release an incomplete evidence analysis report. It is anyone's guess just what the state is doing. However, I would suspect that they are either stalling until the competency hearing or that the evidence reports point to another person along or without the boy or to no one at all.I don't think it's taken all this time for the evidence to be examined. They were talking in the first hearings about doing all they could to get the ballistics info back quickly, in early Jan, was the best they could get, IIRC. And here it is - and they're sending to a new lab. IMO, they've got results. But they don't like them.

[muska]

With the magazine in a Mossberg you just shoot and the casing ejects to the right before the next shot. No reload.
It uses .22 bullets.
Yes, imo it sounds lke pops and you can move and shoot again, which would cause be a delay in shots also.

Seems like the Mossberg could easily be the weapon then....that makes a lot more sense to me.

[Good_Gawd]

Seems like the Mossberg could easily be the weapon then....that makes a lot more sense to me.

Did Vinnie have his own vehicle? Seems weird they never mention it.
When did that cousin of Tim's shoot at his truck? I wonder if it was Tanya's cousin because he found out Tim was cheating on her and he came to finish the job?

[muska]

Did Vinnie have his own vehicle? Seems weird they never mention it.
When did that cousin of Tim's shoot at his truck? I wonder if it was Tanya's cousin because he found out Tim was cheating on her and he came to finish the job?

Can't help you much - I've only seen that VR rode to work with TR in Tim's truck. I also think that Tim's truck was in Tiffany's name, but I could be wrong about that....strange if true.

Tim's truck was supposedly struck by gunfire on the reservation - not sure when. As far as who could have done it....there are so many possibilities! Your idea sounds as good as many others!

[Jacobtk]

Does an automatic weapon like the Mossberg always shoot fast or can the shooter use it to shoot slowly as in indiviual timed shots? I read that the Mossberg can "if desired be used as a single shot weapon,"but I don't know exactly what that means. I am just wondering if the Mossberg could have made timed popping noises or not.

This is what a Mossberg 702 Plinkster sounds like (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSCSDpp8aA0). It would be audible outside. If shot from inside, the sound probably would not carry. As for the single-shot rifle, this is what it would sound like (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woNjDabcD5I) and a general approximation of how long it would take to load it. I think the boy in the video is about 10 or 11.

[Jacobtk]

I don't think it's taken all this time for the evidence to be examined. They were talking in the first hearings about doing all they could to get the ballistics info back quickly, in early Jan, was the best they could get, IIRC. And here it is - and they're sending to a new lab. IMO, they've got results. But they don't like them.

If they did that, then they would have to inform the court. If they do not, they would be in serious trouble. The state would have to explain why they sent the evidence to be re-tested and why they released what they considered faulty evidential findings to the public.

[PensiveOne]

I put together a timeline. I may have missed some things so if you can think of anything I need to add let me know. I hadn't seen anybody put a timeline together yet, so I thought this might be helpful

Approx. 3:00 CR gets off of school bus. I cannot find where this is stated as fact.

4:20 P (Brewer INT Neckles) Tiffany at Wilburs to get milk and doughnuts for work.
4:20 – 4:25 P (jones rpt) VR & TR leave work.
4:27 P (avila rpt) VR calls Tiffany oh his way home.
4:45 P ( Brewer INT Neckles) Tiffany at Wilburs the second time for spaghetti stuff.
4:40 - 4:45 P (avila rpt) Tiffany’s Dad talks with VR, approx time 15 minutes after Tiffany talked to VR.
4:52 P (avila & hogle rpts) Tanya talks to TR
4:55 P (Neckles) Tanya & TR call ends.
5:00 P to 5:10 P (Rodriquez Mr. Kilmer from SAW WORLD dropped off his employee and reported he saw 2 trucks. Turned out to be TR’s and the neighbor CR had run to.
5:00 P (Neckles) Neighbor to the North (Hannah) arrives at his home. Hears and sees nothing when he first arrives home nor when he leaves his home 5 minutes later.
5:03 P (Neckles) 911 call is placed by Ray Davis
5:05 P (Neckles) Hannah leaves home to pick up a tractor.
5:05 P (Rodriquez) Neighbors ( Jaramillo) across the street heard shots. 3 loud pops.
5:06 P ( Neckles ) Neckles dispatched to the murder scene.
5:09 P (Neckles) Neckles arrives at murder scene.
5:?? P ( Neckles) Jean & Jason Kirk (EMTs) arrive shortly after police.
5:12 P (Avila rpt) CR calls Tiffany, didn’t reach her.
5:14 P (Avila rpt) CR calls Tiffany. Tells her he saw his dad dead.
5:?? P ( Neckles) Shortly after CR call her Tiffany pulls up at the scene.
5:18 P (Jones) Jones is called by Chief Melnik to report to scene.
5:20 P ( Rodriquez) Rodriquez contacted by dispatch.
5:22 P (Jones) Jones is called by dispatch.
5:25 P (Jones) Jones arrived on scene.
5:25 P (Neckles) Hannah returns home.
5:20 P (Rodriquez) Scene is secured.
5:58 P (Jones) Jones & Rodriquez leave scene to write up search warrant.

11/06
11:27 A (Jones) Jones arrives at health center, picks up CR to take CR to SJPD. CR is not handcuffed.

A few DAYS after the murders Tiffany is interviewed and taped by SJPD.
SJPD never interviews Tanya. DPS does that and when asked about the divorce she leaves the interview.
DPS is supposed to have followed up with Tanya.

[Details]

I just had an idea.
What if Tim's wife did call him but he saw from caller ID that it was her and he didn't answer and it went to voice mail. Or, she called and he couldn't answer because he was already dead? His wife may have just made the whole conversation up if she knew about the girlfriend and other recreational activities of Tim's?That's why I want to know if they've checked if Tim picked up, or voicemail did.

[Dogmatic]

I'm way behind on this case.

I'm skeptical, to say the least.

I simply don't have enough information, like:

Were all of the bullets in the victims from the same gun?

Which victim was shot first?



It seems highly unlikely, but then again, there are ALOT of parents out there exposing very very young children to things that children aren't capable of comprehending or handling.

I really don't know what to think.

[Details]

Dogmatic, there's very little hard evidence in that line on this case. We don't know which victim was shot first, we don't know which gun, nor if it was all the same gun. We know it was a 22 rifle of some kind, the casings were all (or nearly all) the same. We know the father was shot on the stairs, 4 times, one (maybe 2 - but photos disagree) casings at the top of the stairs, 2 more on the landing. We know Tim was shot 6 times, once near his truck, then a blood trail leads to the door where his body is, and several more casings.

Tim's wife (he was cheating on her, reportedly had proposed to his girlfriend, she walked out when the investigator asked her about divorce) claims that she talked to him at 4:52, and he was called away by the little boy a few minutes later. This isn't verified.

The boy says he came home, saw a white car speeding away, walked into the house, found Tim dead at the door, his father, went to a friend's house, friend called his Dad, Dad hurried home, looked at the house, saw Tim, called 911 - at 5:03.

That's the facts, pretty much.



For no reason we know of, the ballistics reports are not back - we don't know the gun. They were supposed to be now or soon, but instead, the gun is being forwarded to another lab for further testing.

[Good_Gawd]

This is what a Mossberg 702 Plinkster sounds like (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSCSDpp8aA0). It would be audible outside. If shot from inside, the sound probably would not carry. As for the single-shot rifle, this is what it would sound like (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woNjDabcD5I) and a general approximation of how long it would take to load it. I think the boy in the video is about 10 or 11.

They both sound like pops to me. And I was right, the Mossberg can be fired fast or slow. :biggrin: It holds 10 rounds, that would account for 10 shots fired and no bullets dropped. imo

[Details]

They both sound like pops to me. And I was right, the Mossberg can be fired fast or slow. :biggrin: It holds 10 rounds, that would account for 10 shots fired and no bullets dropped. imoAnd it requires no reload time, which accounts for taking down two adult men that fast, two shots in the chest before the victim can drop or turn, etc.

[Good_Gawd]

And it requires no reload time, which accounts for taking down two adult men that fast, two shots in the chest before the victim can drop or turn, etc.

Makes sense, huh?

[Hawk]

They both sound like pops to me. And I was right, the Mossberg can be fired fast or slow. :biggrin: It holds 10 rounds, that would account for 10 shots fired and no bullets dropped. imo

But it still ejects at the spot it was fired.

[Good_Gawd]

I just had an idea.
What if Tim's wife did call him but he saw from caller ID that it was her and he didn't answer and it went to voice mail. Or, she called and he couldn't answer because he was already dead? His wife may have just made the whole conversation up if she knew about the girlfriend and other recreational activities of Tim's?

From what I just read, when asked about a divorce, Tim's wife walked out of the room. :ohmy:

Now why would she do that? Better yet did she lawyer up before that or after that?

[Hawk]

That's why I want to know if they've checked if Tim picked up, or voicemail did.

That would have been instantly known by looking at Mr. Romans phone.

[Good_Gawd]

But it still ejects at the spot it was fired.

You are the only one with the problem about where the casings were ejected.

[Hawk]

You are the only one with the problem about where the casings were ejected.

I don't think so. It's the most important evidence, after matching the Chipmunk firing pin to the the empty casings. It's the only way they can determine firing order.
If there isn't a match then the investigation has to start over.

[Good_Gawd]

I don't think so. It's the most important evidence, after matching the Chipmunk firing pin to the the empty casings. It's the only way they can determine firing order.
If there isn't a match then the investigation has to start over.

But they haven't matched them yet, have they?

[bkwits]

[QUOTE=Hawk;12660986]I don't think so. It's the most important evidence, after matching the Chipmunk firing pin to the the empty casings. It's the only way they can determine firing order.
If there isn't a match then the investigation has to start over.[/QUOTE

I know you have said this before, but which casings make you so certain that it was the child with the Chipmunk rifle, if you indeed are certain of that?

[Hawk]

But they haven't matched them yet, have they?

Surely they have. All they do is fire the Chipmunk and use the empty shell to compare the marks on it to the casings found at the crime scene under a microscope.

I don't know, of course, if this has been done yet.

[Hawk]

[QUOTE=Hawk;12660986]I don't think so. It's the most important evidence, after matching the Chipmunk firing pin to the the empty casings. It's the only way they can determine firing order.
If there isn't a match then the investigation has to start over.[/QUOTE

I know you have said this before, but which casings make you so certain that it was the child with the Chipmunk rifle, if you indeed are certain of that?

The ones inside the house (E,F,U, and V).
Those found outside are hard to place with the little we know.

[Good_Gawd]

Surely they have. All they do is fire the Chipmunk and use the empty shell to compare the marks on it to the casings found at the crime scene under a microscope.

I don't know, of course, if this has been done yet.

Isn't that usually one of the first things they do?

[Kara]

friend called his Dad, Dad hurried home, looked at the house, saw Tim, called 911 - at 5:03.

<snipped>
Help!!

So much conflicting info here. I always thought the 911 call at 5:03 came from the friend's dad (as you state). But yesterday and today I saw posts stating the 911 call at 5:03 came from neighbors who heard the gunshots.

Which is accurate???

[Kara]

But it still ejects at the spot it was fired.
I thought the location of the shell casing was your argument for why the boy did it with the chipmunk gun....:confused:

[Hawk]

Isn't that usually one of the first things they do?

You'd think so. It seems like that would be major news!
Of course the county attorney only releases what he wants to and Mr. Brewer is bound by the gag order.
But if the Chipmunk doesn't match, the game is over.

Isn't it?

[Hawk]

I thought the location of the shell casing was your argument for why the boy did it with the chipmunk gun....:confused:

It is. But I want very much to be wrong.

[Kara]

It is. But I want very much to be wrong.So how does that match up with your statement that the Mossberg would eject casings in a fashion similar (or identical) to how the chipmunk would operate??

[Hawk]

So how does that match up with your statement that the Mossberg would eject casings in a fashion similar (or identical) to how the chipmunk would operate??

They don't operate the same. One ejects automatically were you fire it (Mossberg) the other (Chipmunk) is manually ejected anywhere the shooter chooses.

[Hawk]

didn't somebody say that the pins didn't match and that's why they sent the gun for more tests?

If you have a link to that I can sleep tonight.

[Kara]

They don't operate the same. One ejects automatically were you fire it (Mossberg) the other (Chipmunk) is manually ejected anywhere the shooter chooses.Okay...so can you help my stupid brain understand why the location of the casings would help you to know which gun was used?

[ChildsVOICE]

I had a visit from my sun this morning. He is very close in size to Vince Romero. My son is 5'11" and weighs about 175. Son had on Carrhart overalls because he came to shovel out my driveway. I couldn't resist. I had him to lay down on my basement stairway near the top. He obliged me. My stairs are very similar to the Romero stairs except it a single flight of stairs with 12 steps. There are walls on each side and a railing, and carpeting. The staircase is 36" wide.

On my stairs, it would prob be easy enough for an adult to step around the body, more difficult for a small child, especially at the top of the stairs.

My son who has been a carpenter, and carpenter contractor for 25 years says that not all codes call for 36" stairs, some are as narrow as 32". He has worked in Tex., Kan., Col., MO, an IL.

That is just FWIW.

Note: He says I'm turning into Jessica Fletcher (Murder She Wrote)

This is just too funny! (that you actually got your grown son to lay on the stairs.) :lol::lol::lol:

[Hawk]

Okay...so can you help my stupid brain understand why the location of the casings would help you to know which gun was used?

Five casings were found outdoors and five were found indoors. Had the Mossberg been used there would have been six outside and four inside.

[Good_Gawd]

You'd think so. It seems like that would be major news!
Of course the county attorney only releases what he wants to and Mr. Brewer is bound by the gag order.
But if the Chipmunk doesn't match, the game is over.

Isn't it?
Yes, Game over. That is why I was surpised they announced the ballistics report was out but only to say the gun and ammo needed further testing.

If it had been a match, they would have been screaming from the roof tops. imo

[Hawk]

Yes, Game over. That is why I was surpised they announced the ballistics report was out but only to say the gun and ammo needed further testing.

If it had been a match, they would have been screaming from the roof tops. imo


That's my thought too.

[Good_Gawd]

If you have a link to that I can sleep tonight.

Right!!! :lol:

[Hawk]

it was on one of the posts on the prior thread or the one before that. I don't have a link. Did you say it??? It was when I was asking questions about guns.

I believe the news story was that they sent the stuff to Texas, but the wording was vague (as usual) with no explanation of why.

[Kara]

Five casings were found outdoors and five were found indoors. Had the Mossberg been used there would have been six outside and four inside.
But that doesn't match. VR was shot 4 times inside and TR was shot 6 times outside.:confused:

[Hawk]

But that doesn't match. VR was shot 4 times inside and TR was shot 6 times outside.:confused:

That's right!

[Kara]

That's right!

Either you make no sense or I ain't got enough. :shrug:

[Jacobtk]

Yes, Game over. That is why I was surpised they announced the ballistics report was out but only to say the gun and ammo needed further testing.

If it had been a match, they would have been screaming from the roof tops. imo

Chances are they have not actually done the ballistics analysis yet. If they had and if came back that it was the boy's gun, they would still have to test the casings for the boy's print. Assuming they did this, that might explain why Brewer wants all the evidence gathered with the search warrant tossed out. However, if it came back that it was not the boy's gun, the prosecutors could have released the information about the gunpowder residue and the fingerprint in an effort to implicate the boy and Brewer could be pushing the suppression of the evidence based on how poorly the scene was handled.

I think the most likely situation is that the results have not come back. The reason is because Brewer complained about the prosecutors releasing information to the public before he received it at the last hearing. That would imply that he is not in the loop with the prosecutors and so it is not very likely that they have sent him anything about the ballistics report. Like you said, the prosecutors would reveal anything actually implicating the boy in a heartbeat, so they either have nothing or they are committing prosecutorial misconduct by giving the boy's attorneys the runaround.

[Details]

Help!!

So much conflicting info here. I always thought the 911 call at 5:03 came from the friend's dad (as you state). But yesterday and today I saw posts stating the 911 call at 5:03 came from neighbors who heard the gunshots.

Which is accurate???I am, of course! :cool:


There's also a 911 call from neighbors who heard gunshots, it was listed in a timeline posted recently, I think it was 5:05 they said they heard shots.

[bkwits]

This is just too funny! (that you actually got your grown son to lay on the stairs.) :lol::lol:

Yes, and he is a very focused, organized individual. But he does have a sense of humor, like all Irishmen, I think. (at least half Irish)

:biggrin:

[Good_Gawd]

Five casings were found outdoors and five were found indoors. Had the Mossberg been used there would have been six outside and four inside.

Shell casing 6, behind front door Item #14

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/searchwarrantpropertysupp%20BO.pdf

[Hawk]

Like you said, the prosecutors would reveal anything actually implicating the boy in a heartbeat, so they either have nothing or they are committing prosecutorial misconduct by giving the boy's attorneys the runaround.

Prosecutorial misconduct indeed!

"If the gun don't fit, you must acquit"!

[Kara]

I'll do some more reading tomorrow morning. I gotta watch CSI. It's Grissom's last episode.

That's my excuse...I'm watching Grissom while posting. :)

[bkwits]

Either you make no sense or I ain't got enough. :shrug:

Very clever, funny statement. :lol:

[Details]

It is. But I want very much to be wrong.If you do - consider the option of a gunman starting out at the car, shooting Tim, following him as he heads inside, shooting again, taking him down at the door, then shooting the father who is on the stairs, maybe running away, jumping over him to check the upstairs, firing at the father once more once up there, then coming down to make sure Tim and father are both finished off in whatever order you like.

Or, consider a killer lurking in the house, shooting the father, luring Tim inside (maybe a girlfriend, or someone else he wouldn't want to admit to talking to, or maybe someone working with his wife) or going out the back to ambush him at the driveway (or, of course, a second killer with a second 22 rifle), then, again, after both men are down, firing in any order that fits, to make sure both are dead.


Do you see any reason why this would not fit the casings just as well as any other pattern? Shooting starting from outside (where the father may well not have heard it starting until Tim came to the door) seems to me to work just fine, and autoejected casings from a mossberg work just fine, when we don't assume that the killer has to have fired all shots into one victim before starting the next (which is, really, the least likely option for the killer's safety - take both men down, then finish both off).

[Details]

Five casings were found outdoors and five were found indoors. Had the Mossberg been used there would have been six outside and four inside.No - depends on the order of the shots fired. Only if you assume two questionable things does this tell you it was a single-shot. First, you have to assume all shots were fired into one victim then the other - no mixing it up. Second, you have to assume that the photograph is wrong, and the detective's memory is right about the number of casings at the top of the stairs.

[Hawk]

Shell casing 6, behind front door Item #14

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/searchwarrantpropertysupp%20BO.pdf

Shell casings (item numbers) 3, 4, 5, 6, and 14 were found outdoors. (#14 refers to one found behind the security door outside which was partially open.

Shell casings (item numbers) 9, 10, 11, 12, and 13 were found indoors.

[Good_Gawd]

Shell casings (item numbers) 3, 4, 5, 6, and 14 were found outdoors. (#14 refers to one found behind the security door outside which was partially open.

Shell casings (item numbers) 9, 10, 11, 12, and 13 were found indoors.

That is casing 6 outside. Period. imo

[IAMME]

Everyone keeps bringing up the "timeline" basing it on the phonecall.

DN said the 911 call came in at 1706 she is also the one who said she "thought" the call came in at 1652 and last 2.5 minutes.........so just like the neighbors who heard shots around 5, this could mean anything, not really enough info to base a theory on IMO....

[Hawk]

No - depends on the order of the shots fired. Only if you assume two questionable things does this tell you it was a single-shot. First, you have to assume all shots were fired into one victim then the other - no mixing it up. Second, you have to assume that the photograph is wrong, and the detective's memory is right about the number of casings at the top of the stairs.

But all shots weren't fired into one victim then the other. Mr. Romero was shot twice, then Mr. Romans was shot six times, then Mr. Romero was shot two more times.
The photograph isn't wrong. Sgt. Guinn just didn't disrupt the mess on the floor to look for the second casing. It wasn't his assignment. The property supplement lists all the casings and there locations.

[Good_Gawd]

But all shots weren't fired into one victim then the other. Mr. Romero was shot twice, then Mr. Romans was shot six times, then Mr. Romero was shot two more times.
The photograph isn't wrong. Sgt. Guinn just didn't disrupt the mess on the floor to look for the second casing. It wasn't his assignment. The property supplement lists all the casings and there locations.

ok, I can't count.

[Hawk]

That is casing 6 outside. Period. imo

No, that's five outside and five inside.

[Details]

But all shots weren't fired into one victim then the other. Mr. Romero was shot twice, then Mr. Romans was shot six times, then Mr. Romero was shot two more times.
The photograph isn't wrong. Sgt. Guinn just didn't disrupt the mess on the floor to look for the second casing. It wasn't his assignment. The property supplement lists all the casings and there locations.You don't know that - we've got no video, and no way to know how many shots were fired into who, in what order. It's all just an assumption. If indeed you are neutral, and would love to find a reason to think the boy innocent, it shouldn't be hard to consider the alternate orders in which the men might have been shot that fit the Mossberg as well as the Chipmunk. Including the very reasonable idea that Tim was running away from gunfire rather than to it after he was shot the first time.

I'm still not happy with that second casing - it seems to be listed weird, no photo - doesn't fit well. I consider it as a quantum casing - might be there, might not.

[Good_Gawd]

No, that's five outside and five inside.

What about the one in the chipmunk gun?

[Good_Gawd]

There are 11 casings listed on the Evidence Control form. Care to explain? anyone?

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/searchwarrantpropertysupp%20BO.pdf

[Hawk]

You don't know that - we've got no video, and no way to know how many shots were fired into who, in what order. It's all just an assumption. If indeed you are neutral, and would love to find a reason to think the boy innocent, it shouldn't be hard to consider the alternate orders in which the men might have been shot that fit the Mossberg as well as the Chipmunk. Including the very reasonable idea that Tim was running away from gunfire rather than to it after he was shot the first time.

I'm still not happy with that second casing - it seems to be listed weird, no photo - doesn't fit well. I consider it as a quantum casing - might be there, might not.

There probably are photos. We just aren't privy to all of the hundreds taken. I wish we were. The released evidence excludes the possibility of the Mossberg being used. Inside the house anyway.

This argument over the evidence as we know it could go on forever. I hope we know more after the next hearing. Hopefully the gun testing will eliminate the Chipmunk.

Just my opinion.

[Details]

You keep saying the Mossburg is eliminated - but you don't even look for an alternate firing order that fits it. IMO, Tim shot first, followed by VR, with a few final kill shots works just fine for the Mossburg. There is nothing that eliminates either weapon from consideration.

[Hawk]

You keep saying the Mossburg is eliminated - but you don't even look for an alternate firing order that fits it. IMO, Tim shot first, followed by VR, with a few final kill shots works just fine for the Mossburg. There is nothing that eliminates either weapon from consideration.

Shell casing, Marker E.

[Details]

Shell casing, Marker E.In no way does that eliminate the Mossburg. Go ahead though - instead of hinting and letting me rebut a wild guess of what you mean - say it outright.

[Hawk]

In no way does that eliminate the Mossburg. Go ahead though - instead of hinting and letting me rebut a wild guess of what you mean - say it outright.

Where is the casing from the 6th shot into Mr. Romans?

[Good_Gawd]

Where is the casing from the 6th shot into Mr. Romans?
Could be in a white car.
I read where they said a bullet grazed Vinnie, and they found the casing, but they couldn't find where the bullet went. In that house, I can see why.

Anyone else see this?

[Hawk]

Could be in a white car.
I read where they said a bullet grazed Vinnie, and they found the casing, but they couldn't find where the bullet went. In that house, I can see why.

Anyone else see this?

The men were shot ten times. Ten empty casings were found.

[Hawk]

Yes...but only 9 bullets

That doesn't change anything.

[Good_Gawd]

The men were shot ten times. Ten empty casings were found.

I count 11 casings on that Evidence control form. Counting 7A the one in the gun.

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/searchwarrantpropertysupp%20BO.pdf

[Hawk]

I count 11 casings on that Evidence control form. Counting 7A the one in the gun.

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/searchwarrantpropertysupp%20BO.pdf

That one is unspent.

[Good_Gawd]

This is what I came up with from the evidence log:

(1) [O]X-patio front porch TIM
(2) [O]T-patio front porch TIM
(3) [O/I]?-front floor mat TIM
(4) [O/I]?-between front door/door frame TIM
(5) [I]E-2nd step staircase TIM
(6) [I]F-3rd step staircase-2nd stairwell VINCE
(7) [I]U-4th step-2nd stairwell VINCE
(8) [I]V-hallway 2nd floor VINCE
(9) [I]next to V?-2nd floor VINCE
(10)[O/I]?-behind front door TIM
(11)[?] 7A-in rifle UNSPENT


Thank you!!!!

[Good_Gawd]

That one is unspent.

So it is listed as a shell casing? Come on Hawk!
moo

[Details]

Where is the casing from the 6th shot into Mr. Romans?I've got a toddler, a husband, a job, and a life. I'm not looking to waste my time playing a guessing game. If you have a theory about how this can only work with a single shot, say so.

[Hawk]

This is what I came up with from the evidence log:

(1) [O]X-patio front porch TIM
(2) [O]T-patio front porch TIM
(3) [O/I]?-front floor mat TIM
(4) [O/I]?-between front door/door frame TIM
(5) [I]E-2nd step staircase TIM
(6) [I]F-3rd step staircase-2nd stairwell VINCE
(7) [I]U-4th step-2nd stairwell VINCE
(8) [I]V-hallway 2nd floor VINCE
(9) [I]next to V?-2nd floor VINCE
(10)[O/I]?-behind front door TIM
(11)[?] 7A-in rifle UNSPENT

Well, there you go. How did the casing at Marker E (your item #5) get on the indoor step if it were fired from a semi-auto Mossberg rifle into Mr. Romans outside the house?

[Hawk]

So it is listed as a shell casing? Come on Hawk!
moo

No it isn't, it's listed as a shell. All the others are listed as shell casings.

[Good_Gawd]

No it isn't, it's listed as a shell. All the others are listed as shell casings.

Look again. It says 7A- shell casing

[Hawk]

Look again. It says 7A- shell casing

I did. And Item# 7A still says shell.

[Hawk]

(1) [O]X-patio front porch TIM-shot at Tim from doorway
(2) [O]T-patio front porch TIM-shot at Tim from patio
(3) [O/I]?-front floor mat TIM-shot at Tim from doorway (is that mat inside the front door at the entryway or more like a welcome mat just outside the door on the patio?)
(4) [O/I]?-between front door/door frame TIM-shot to head stand in doorway
(5) [i]E-2nd step staircase TIM-shot as Tim opened the door
(6) [i]F-3rd step staircase-2nd stairwell VINCE-shot from landing below Vince
(7) [i]U-4th step-2nd stairwell VINCE-shot from landing below Vince
(8) [i]V-hallway 2nd floor VINCE-shot from upstairs hallway down at Vince
(9) [i]next to V?-2nd floor VINCE-shot from upstairs halllway down at Vince
(10)[O/I]?-behind front door TIM-I am not sure what behind front door means-does that mean between the front door and the inside wall? That one really confuses me.
(11)[?] 7A-in rifle UNSPENT

Mr. Romans never made it to the door. He was shot to pieces before he reached it and collapsed. Also, the stairway goes 90 degress (heading east) from the north facing front door.

[Good_Gawd]

I did. And Item# 7A still says shell.

Go down to the Evidence control form. That is what they found! Seems you see just what YOU want to see.

[Hawk]

Really? I thought his head was actually inside the doorway. Didn't the boy say he accidentally hit him in the head with the door?

That's the security door which opens outwardly.

[Hawk]

Whaddya know! It most certainly DOES say shell casing. But what does that mean? That there was an 11th shot fired and that bullet never hit anything and was never recovered? Or is that just a type because they kept writing casing, casing, casing, casing, etc...

We must be looking at different reports. The one I downloaded and printed is dated 11/6/08 in the Type of Report box and says homicide where the date is supposed to be. It's page 3 or 3 from the St. Johns Police Department. At the top of the page it says Search Warrant Property Supplement with a fax imprint date of Nov the 17th.
It plainly states item #7A is a shell. Found in rifle.


Do you have something different?

[Hawk]

OK, so please explain how him lying in the path of the security door can't mean he was shot from either the doorway or the stairs?

Because his body was to the left of the front door, looking from the street. Plus you can't see the front door from the 2nd step of the stairway, there's a solid wall between the two at a 90 degree angle.

He very well could have been shot the last three times from the doorway. That would explain two of the casing locations and the fact that the neighbors only heard three shots.

[Good_Gawd]

Whaddya know! It most certainly DOES say shell casing. But what does that mean? That there was an 11th shot fired and that bullet never hit anything and was never recovered? Or is that just a type because they kept writing casing, casing, casing, casing, etc...

Could be the child did grab his gun and shoot at a white car, just like he said.
He was in shock.

[Hawk]

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/searchwarrantpropertysupp%20BO.pdf

See page 5

Okay. I see that on page 5. But page 3 says shell. I think whoever did the list on page 5 just repeated what they had written as they filled in the blanks.

You can also see the unspent round in the gun in the crime scene photos, although there has been considerable amount of debate about that, too.

[Jacobtk]

Could be the child did grab his gun and shoot at a white car, just like he said.
He was in shock.

Or perhaps attempted too but could not line up the shot before the car got away. The unspent round makes no sense though if the boy is supposedly the shooter. Why would he stop firing? The other possibility is that the shooter had the forethought to put a round in the rifle and leave it by the door in order to implicate the boy.

[Good_Gawd]

Or perhaps attempted too but could not line up the shot before the car got away. The unspent round makes no sense though if the boy is supposedly the shooter. Why would he stop firing? The other possibility is that the shooter had the forethought to put a round in the rifle and leave it by the door in order to implicate the boy.

They mentioned fingerprints of the child on the box of bullets, but not on that 7A round. Good catch.

[bkwits]

Could be the child did grab his gun and shoot at a white car, just like he said.
He was in shock.


Nah, I don't think so. The poor child was grasping at anything to get those interrogators off his back. Also, they had him so confused that he was thinking maybe he did shoot the gun when he hadn't.

OTH, if he did shoot the men, which I doubt, I don't think he shot at the car.

IMO

[FurthurBB]

This is what a Mossberg 702 Plinkster sounds like (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSCSDpp8aA0). It would be audible outside. If shot from inside, the sound probably would not carry. As for the single-shot rifle, this is what it would sound like (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woNjDabcD5I) and a general approximation of how long it would take to load it. I think the boy in the video is about 10 or 11.

I do not think the mossberg would be any more audible outside. All 22s sound about the same. IMO

[Good_Gawd]

I honestly do not think anyone would have ever had the foresight to implicate an 8 year old, honestly....I think they just hit the jackpot when he confessed.

They get the Gooberville award for an illegal interview that the whole world is frowning on. :lol:

[bkwits]

I honestly do not think anyone would have ever had the foresight to implicate an 8 year old, honestly....I think they just hit the jackpot when he confessed.

On the contrary, they suspected him right away when Tanya told them of hearing the boy's voice over the phone calling Tim into the house. LE had already pegged him as the killer and the LEOs steered him or tried to into a confession. Too bad for them, that they could never match up the confession with the crime scene.

IMO

[muska]

Okay. I see that on page 5. But page 3 says shell. I think whoever did the list on page 5 just repeated what they had written as they filled in the blanks.

You can also see the unspent round in the gun in the crime scene photos, although there has been considerable amount of debate about that, too.

They list it as a shell in one place, as a casing in another. They have a report and a picture reporting and showing one casing at the top of the second set of stairs: and an interview showing two casings. And of course, these are two small examples. They've messed up way too much. There is no reason to trust any of their evidence or anything they say. IMO

[Good_Gawd]

I know I sound like a broken record, but I honestly think the kid was out shooting his gun before the parents came home and knew he'd be in big trouble if he was caught. That is why the only part about his original story sounded "off" as he said he was just "walking around" for a couple of hours. I think when the investigators started trapping him he was trying to get out of trouble for playing with the gun when he thought they would find his fingerprints on him and GSR on him. If he was off playing with his gun, he knew he would get in trouble. Then he quickly went to thinking-oh man...now they'll think I'm the killer, so maybe if they think I shot them to put them out of their misery or shot at the car, they might not think I'm the killer. He's 8 and was confused and got cornered.:crying:


I don't think so. Someone would have called the cops saying shots fired. Don't you think?

[muska]

Or perhaps attempted too but could not line up the shot before the car got away. The unspent round makes no sense though if the boy is supposedly the shooter. Why would he stop firing? The other possibility is that the shooter had the forethought to put a round in the rifle and leave it by the door in order to implicate the boy.

I wouldn't rule it out....

[muska]

They get the Gooberville award for an illegal interview that the whole world is frowning on. :lol:

but that coerced confession is still haunting the boy, so the prosecution got what it wanted....don't you think?

[ExPI]

In an earlier post I had looked up the rifling pattern for the Chipmunk and the plinkster. The Chipmunk is almost unique. It has 12 lands and grooves. The Pinkster has 8. This is not rocket science.

Why would the shooter of the Chipmunk load a round into the rifle and not shoot it. I think this says the the Chipmunk was not the weapon used.

The police took the Hornady ammo box into evidence but did not even open it to see if it contained .22 rounds let alone how many. It may have been just what it says on the label, Hornady .17 rounds that will not fit into the Chipmunk. Was there space in the box for the rounds fired?

[Good_Gawd]

but that coerced confession is still haunting the boy, so the prosecution got what it wanted....don't you think?

Personally, I think it makes them look pitiful. They should be embarrassed by what they did to that child. They should have resigned. imo

[JD1974]

The unspent round bothers me also. This kid goes on a rampage and kills 2 men in cold blood then loads for the last time and does what...nothing??? If he did this he had to be on auto pilot, load, shoot, reload, shoot, reload..etc so he just all of a sudden stops and leaves one in the gun?

I would go with either theory, he tried to shoot at the white car, or he was scared whoever had killed his dad and Tim might come back, so he waited with the loaded gun for a minute or two, to see if he could hear anyone, dropped it on the cage on his way out to run to the neighbors.

[muska]

In an earlier post I had looked up the rifling pattern for the Chipmunk and the plinkster. The Chipmunk is almost unique. It has 12 lands and grooves. The Pinkster has 8. This is not rocket science.

Why would the shooter of the Chipmunk load a round into the rifle and not shoot it. I think this says the the Chipmunk was not the weapon used.

The police took the Hornady ammo box into evidence but did not even open it to see if it contained .22 rounds let alone how many. It may have been just what it says on the label, Hornady .17 rounds that will not fit into the Chipmunk. Was there space in the box for the rounds fired?

Just say you wanted to use the Hornady .17 rounds, could you fit them into the .22 casings? I'm pretty sure I have read that you could but that they'd be very inaccurate to shoot. Just wondering if it's even possible.

And then also, would the casings look different? A lot of people here seem to know a lot about these things. Is there any way the casings were from .17 rounds?

Hope you understand what I'm asking, still not real clear about some of this.

[muska]

I've been sitting here trying to picture an 8 year old boy killing two grown men with a chipmunk rifle. First of all, what made him think he could do it? He'd shot the gun before and knew it killed little animals and has to be reloaded. Why choose that method of trying to kill the dad and Tim?

And more importantly....why would he choose THAT particular time??? Dad and Tim slept right across the hall from him? Why not wait till they were asleep? The job would have been much easier to do, wouldn't you think? He was angry the night before for getting the spanking from Tiffany, right? Why not that night after everyone went to bed, didn't he go on his killing rampage? Why wait until daylight? Why not wait till later that night? It doesn't make much sense to me at all?

We are expected to believe this is a cold, calculated killer able to surprise two grown men with a chipmunk rifle succesfully, but wouldn't have come up with a better plan? And why call Tim into the house after all was said and done? Why not just run out the back door and act like he was never there?

This kid walked into a mess and was in shock. Then he walked into another mess with the officers. He was in the wrong place at the right time, IMO.

Really good questions! And to think that ---- chief said in his earliest statement that the shootings were meticulously planned. Give me a break!!!

[ExPI]

Just say you wanted to use the Hornady .17 rounds, could you fit them into the .22 casings? I'm pretty sure I have read that you could but that they'd be very inaccurate to shoot. Just wondering if it's even possible.

The Hornady HMR might fit into the .22 chamber. It might fire. It would be wildly inaccurate and would, in my opinion only, not get up to speed. The projectile part is very different and would not be mistaken one for the other.

And then also, would the casings look different?
Yes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.17_HMR

Is there any way the casings were from .17 rounds?
No

[Good_Gawd]

Just say you wanted to use the Hornady .17 rounds, could you fit them into the .22 casings? I'm pretty sure I have read that you could but that they'd be very inaccurate to shoot. Just wondering if it's even possible.

And then also, would the casings look different? A lot of people here seem to know a lot about these things. Is there any way the casings were from .17 rounds?

Hope you understand what I'm asking, still not real clear about some of this.
A .17 next to a .22
http://www.gunblast.com/images/Ruger_77-17/Mvc-022f.jpg

[ExPI]

Mzmarymac, the link to the report from Officer Guinn about the autopsy is


http://www.november2008stjohnsdouble...load/Guinn.pdf

[Good_Gawd]

The Hornady HMR might fit into the .22 chamber. It might fire. It would be wildly inaccurate and would, in my opinion only, not get up to speed. The projectile part is very different and would not be mistaken one for the other.


Yes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.17_HMR


No

Now that we are all on the same page about the bullets. Why did they take the .17 ammo into evidence? :confused:

[ExPI]

Good Gawd, that picture is a .17 HMR beside a .22 Magnum

[Good_Gawd]

Mzmarymac, the link to the report from Officer Guinn about the autopsy is


http://www.november2008stjohnsdouble...load/Guinn.pdf
It won't display. :scared:
I NEED it.

Got it

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/Guinn.pdf

[muska]

Bolding by me. Anyone know if the shot through the hardhat was in the front or the back?

Through the front.

[muska]

The Hornady HMR might fit into the .22 chamber. It might fire. It would be wildly inaccurate and would, in my opinion only, not get up to speed. The projectile part is very different and would not be mistaken one for the other.


Yes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.17_HMR


No

So there are .22 casings and .17 casings?

[Good_Gawd]

Good Gawd, that picture is a .17 HMR beside a .22 Magnum

LOL, you are right. I got it from ChildsVOICE and it does say .22 magnum now that I read it again.

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=435515258&blogID=463437844

[ExPI]

Good Gawd, they took a .17 ammo box with some rattly things in it as evidence. It might have a rock collection in it. They did not look.

[Jacobtk]

In an earlier post I had looked up the rifling pattern for the Chipmunk and the plinkster. The Chipmunk is almost unique. It has 12 lands and grooves. The Pinkster has 8. This is not rocket science.

No, it is not, but it does take time to check the grooves. They would have to fire a round from the boy's gun and then see if it matched the grooves found on the casings. If there is a backlog at the lab, then they would have to test the other cases first.

[QUOTEThe police took the Hornady ammo box into evidence but did not even open it to see if it contained .22 rounds let alone how many. It may have been just what it says on the label, Hornady .17 rounds that will not fit into the Chipmunk. Was there space in the box for the rounds fired?[/QUOTE]

That has mystified me for some time, particularly because in the police report the box is listed as .22 caliber bullets. Perhaps inside the rounds are .22s, but the box says .17 caliber and at the pre-adjudication hearing Sgt. Rodriguez stated that no other .22 caliber rounds were found in the house. So, something is off.

[muska]

So there are .22 casings and .17 casings?

Does anyone know the answer to this? I do have a reason to ask...just trying to figure something out.....Thanks!

[Good_Gawd]

Does anyone know the answer to this? I do have a reason to ask...just trying to figure something out.....Thanks!

yes, why?:confused:

[ExPI]

Jacobtk: Lands and grooves from the rifling are not the miroscopic markings that can identify a fired bullet with a particular gun. It is like picking up a pencil and seeing if it has eight sides or twelve. Yeah I know pencils have six sides but like that.

Earlier I said that the Hornady round would not fit in the Chipmunk rifle's chamber. I might have been wrong. The Hornady case is skinnier, it would not work well, it might expode the case, the bullet might just drop out of the barrel. All the propellant would leak around the bullet as it went down the barrel. I just don't know.

[ChildsVOICE]

You are the only one with the problem about where the casings were ejected.

HAWK:


1) The shell casing found in the door jam...is that counted as inside or outside the house in your figures? (Sorry if you've explained that before. So much for my tired mind to remember.)

2) Could this scenario happen...

'downstairs shooter #1 have shot VR with the Mossberg as he was mounting the stairs & before turning on the landing, first in the "left arm above the elbow/exitting the bicep and hitting the ribcage (i.e. VR's side)/not penetrating the skin making the shell eject at the lowest step where casing was found. OR shot from behind and below, in the left arm on the landing (was there two shells on or around the landing?)

Then...

'downstairs #1 shooter' have started to shoot Tim with Mossberg while holding the door open hitting TR's forearm. Equals spent shell in the door jam.

'downstairs #1 shooter' steps outside to porch shoots Tim remaining times

IN THE MEAN TIME ...

as soon as VR gets shot in arm... VR turns, circles the landing, and trys to mount more stairs (to flee or get own gun)

whereas an 'upstairs /shooter #2' with secondary .22 is waiting and shoots VR in the front of his hard hat creating the "incompacitating wound/bullet fragmented in brain" forcing him to collapse just shy of the last steps. Equals one shell casing in upstairs hallway.

'upstairs /shooter #2' shoots VR in back/middle of right shoulder blade/ending at abdomen. Equals second spent shell in upstairs hallway.
or vice versa to
'upstairs/shooter #2' comes down to landing or beside the body and shoots VR around left ear into brain. Equals spent shell on second flight of stairs.

I still need to explain the last inside shell.

Both shooters handling each man,seperately, but at the same time.

{FYI... I understand what you originally said about a single action .22 would make sense to unload last spent shell inside after shooting TR outside the final time and the shell landing onto the lowest step.}

What if one of the guns or the gun had not been emptied out the last time it was shot by the Romeros? What if it had a shell casing in it that the perpetrator had to eject before loading the first unspent round?
That could explain an extra shell casing inside the house.

There could still be one extra shell casing that the PD or other forensic team did not find.???

One thing about your theory, I never could figure out though...

Correct me if I'm wrong, going by memory here, didn't you say two spent shells were on the left side of the stairs among the stairs below VR? How could the perpetrator be shooting up the stairs with a right handed gun and the shells eject to the left side of the stairs?

Also, when the boy came and stood by his father 'checking to see if he was a little bit alive' AND when he layed on the landing...crying...

could the boy have, inadvertainly, moved some of the casings with his body? If the casings were in the middle and boy laid down could they have gotten scooted to the left or to the right? or knocked down a step? other?

I'm trying to understand all the data with the casings and the autopsy information.

At any rate...one person had to be downstairs and one person had to be upstairs to shot VR from behind and below (left arm into ribcage)
and to get him in the front of his hard hat? They wouldn't have rolled him over, shot him in the front of the hard hat then rolled him back over.???

That's why I say the boy couldn't have been in two places at the same time. upstairs and downstairs and that he couldn't have gotten from the downstairs to the upstairs in the amount of time it would have taken. He would have needed to be from Star Trek and have Scottie beam him up and that still would have taken too long. LOL

Not being argumentative...just discussion on alternatives to fit all the info.

Also, could the outside/downstairs shooter have heard the boy calling for Tim and saw him coming from down the street and run into the house to warn the other shooter.."Lets get out of here. There's a kid coming!"????

The boy said he "saw someone from the car coming from the car into the house" but when asked he said he never saw anybody leave the house. Is that because he was maneuvering between houses, things in the neighborhood blocking his view OR the perpetrator(s) going out the back and the car picking them up on the other side of the house to avoid to be seen by the boy?

I hope I've made some sense of these comments and questions.

[bkwits]

In an earlier post I had looked up the rifling pattern for the Chipmunk and the plinkster. The Chipmunk is almost unique. It has 12 lands and grooves. The Pinkster has 8. This is not rocket science.

Why would the shooter of the Chipmunk load a round into the rifle and not shoot it. I think this says the the Chipmunk was not the weapon used.

The police took the Hornady ammo box into evidence but did not even open it to see if it contained .22 rounds let alone how many. It may have been just what it says on the label, Hornady .17 rounds that will not fit into the Chipmunk. Was there space in the box for the rounds fired?

I tried to enlarge the photo and it looked to me like the bullets were disordered in the box indicating that it wasn't full.

IMO

[ChildsVOICE]

I honestly do not think anyone would have ever had the foresight to implicate an 8 year old, honestly....I think they just hit the jackpot when he confessed.

My first impression of this theory was that I agree with someone not having the forethought and they hit the jackpot as you say.

But, I've been going through my own situation the last year and a half and my ex has tried to implicate my two teens in crimes against me...we just keep catching him before he gets away with it. We've had our own Guardian Angel.

So...I can't say for sure an adult would not do this. Sometimes, a step parent can be so jealous of the relationship between the child and the parent that they try to hurt the parent or his/her family by hurting the child in some fashion. So, who knows at this point.

[ExPI]

Quote:
Originally Posted by muska
So there are .22 casings and .17 casings?

Does anyone know the answer to this? I do have a reason to ask...just trying to figure something out.....Thanks!

There are .22 casings and there are .17 casings. All the spent casings found at the crime scene are .22 casings. Is this what you are asking?

[Good_Gawd]

IMO, Vinnie was running for his life. He saw it coming while outside, he left the passenger door opened and ran.
Hearing Transcipts- Rodreguez said Tim got out of the truck (drivers side) and walked around the truck to the sidewalk (or driveway, I forget).
That is where the blood trail starts.
imo

[ChildsVOICE]

Good Gawd, they took a .17 ammo box with some rattly things in it as evidence. It might have a rock collection in it. They did not look.

You, my dear sir, are correct. Welcome to the board.:blink:

[bkwits]

I've been sitting here trying to picture an 8 year old boy killing two grown men with a chipmunk rifle. First of all, what made him think he could do it? He'd shot the gun before and knew it killed little animals and has to be reloaded. Why choose that method of trying to kill the dad and Tim?

And more importantly....why would he choose THAT particular time??? Dad and Tim slept right across the hall from him? Why not wait till they were asleep? The job would have been much easier to do, wouldn't you think? He was angry the night before for getting the spanking from Tiffany, right? Why not that night after everyone went to bed, didn't he go on his killing rampage? Why wait until daylight? Why not wait till later that night? It doesn't make much sense to me at all?

We are expected to believe this is a cold, calculated killer able to surprise two grown men with a chipmunk rifle succesfully, but wouldn't have come up with a better plan? And why call Tim into the house after all was said and done? Why not just run out the back door and act like he was never there?

This kid walked into a mess and was in shock. Then he walked into another mess with the officers. He was in the wrong place at the right time, IMO.

Your entire post makes a lot of sense. As far as shooting small animals, he would have had the experience that they don't always die when he shoots them, even if he is a good shot. Even a regular .22 doesn't always kill them. Why would he think he could kill two grown men, and then step over each one's body while it lay on the ground? That makes NO SENSE. IMO

[Good_Gawd]

Your entire post makes a lot of sense. As far as shooting small animals, he would have had the experience that they don't always die when he shoots them, even if he is a good shot. Even a regular .22 doesn't always kill them. Why would he think he could kill two grown men, and then step over each one's body while it lay on the ground? That makes NO SENSE. IMO

Grandma Liz said that Vinnie gave that Chipmunk gun, which was Vinnies when he was young, to the child on his 8th birthday. So he had been shooting a Chipmunk Gun for 10 months. Problem is, we don't know how often he shot, or how well he shot.

[Good_Gawd]

Well...according to the SJPD....he's a ace marksman and cool under pressure!:rolleyes:

Let's have them do a real live reinactment. See how good the child really is. I'd pick the Chief and Carlyon to play the victims.
Second choice Alvia and her sidekick rookie.

:ohmy:

:chicken:

j/k

[ChildsVOICE]

A .17 next to a .22
http://www.gunblast.com/images/Ruger_77-17/Mvc-022f.jpg

I've listed this link on the boy's myspace page. Thanks.

[ChildsVOICE]

Let's have them do a real live reinactment. See how good the child really is. I'd pick the Chief and Carlyon to play the victims.
Second choice Alvia and her sidekick rookie.

j/k

:lol::w00t::lol:
I have no words. I want to stay out of jail. But, you should see me laughing right about now! LOL

[bkwits]

Now that we are all on the same page about the bullets. Why did they take the .17 ammo into evidence? :confused:

Don't they list the box as .22 Cal bullets? Was it Rodriguez who took them into evidence? He never looked inside the box.

[Good_Gawd]

:lol::w00t::lol:
I have no words. I want to stay out of jail. But, you should see me laughing right about now! LOL

I am glad we can laugh, even if just for a few minutes. I think we all need it.

[Good_Gawd]

Don't they list the box as .22 Cal bullets? Was it Rodriguez who took them into evidence? He never looked inside the box.

They sure do. Goobers. They say what type they are right on the box. He never looked and he listed them as .22's anyway.

[ChildsVOICE]

Grandma Liz said that Vinnie gave that Chipmunk gun, which was Vinnies when he was young, to the child on his 8th birthday. So he had been shooting a Chipmunk Gun for 10 months. Problem is, we don't know how often he shot, or how well he shot.


I have it on gooooood authority that the child only shot that particular gun a few times because the father and him had not had a chance to do too much with it, yet. So, NO he did not have the experience needed with that particular gun, yet.

Also, my little birdie told me the boy's fingers and hands were checked for bruising &/or pinching from supposidely pulling the trigger that many times and there was no signs of anything on the child's hands or fingers that would indicate he had shot the gun, not to mention 10+times!

Been waiting to give you all that little tidbit. Pretty important piece of tidbit, I would think.

[ChildsVOICE]

They sure do. Goobers. They say what type they are right on the box. He never looked and he listed them as .22's anyway.

Stop giving Goobers a bad name.:lol:

[ChildsVOICE]

I am glad we can laugh, even if just for a few minutes. I think we all need it.

If you only knew. I'm really glad you all add in some TLC.

[Good_Gawd]

I have it on gooooood authority that the child only shot that particular gun a few times because the father and him had not had a chance to do too much with it, yet. So, NO he did not have the experience needed with that particular gun, yet.

Also, my little birdie told me the boy's fingers and hands were checked for bruising &/or pinching from supposidely pulling the trigger that many times and there was no signs of anything on the child's hands or fingers that would indicate he had shot the gun, not to mention 10+times!

Been waiting to give you all that little tidbit. Pretty important piece of tidbit, I would think.

Well thank you and your birdie very kindly! :thumbsup:

[Good_Gawd]

Stop giving Goobers a bad name.:lol:

If you could only be at my house when I go off on a rant about this case. I call them Plenty of choice words!:cursing:


:biggrin:

[bkwits]

I have it on gooooood authority that the child only shot that particular gun a few times because the father and him had not had a chance to do too much with it, yet. So, NO he did not have the experience needed with that particular gun, yet.

Also, my little birdie told me the boy's fingers and hands were checked for bruising &/or pinching from supposidely pulling the trigger that many times and there was no signs of anything on the child's hands or fingers that would indicate he had shot the gun, not to mention 10+times!

Been waiting to give you all that little tidbit. Pretty important piece of tidbit, I would think.

OOOOHH, I love those little goodies. Thank you..:wub:

[bkwits]

If you could only be at my house when I go off on a rant about this case. I call them Plenty of choice words!:cursing:


:biggrin:

But do you have grown men laying on your stairs while you step over them?

BTW, my son thought it was really strange that Vince had his hard hat and goggles on when he was shot.

[bkwits]

Good night all. :seeya:

[Good_Gawd]

But do you have grown men laying on your stairs while you step over them?

BTW, my son thought it was really strange that Vince had his hard hat and goggles on when he was shot.
No, but I laughed for a good half hour after reading that post.

Vinnie was running for his life.

JMHO!

[Good_Gawd]

Good night all. :seeya:

Good Night!! Stay warm!

[Good_Gawd]

Eryn is back in town. Just a premonition, mind you.


:unsure:




:thumbsup:

[ChildsVOICE]

I have it on gooooood authority that the child only shot that particular gun a few times because the father and him had not had a chance to do too much with it, yet. So, NO he did not have the experience needed with that particular gun, yet.

Also, my little birdie told me the boy's fingers and hands were checked for bruising &/or pinching from supposidely pulling the trigger that many times and there was no signs of anything on the child's hands or fingers that would indicate he had shot the gun, not to mention 10+times!

Been waiting to give you all that little tidbit. Pretty important piece of tidbit, I would think.

To add...I don't know about GPR just a layman's physical exam of the hands and fingers. No pinched fingers. No bruised fingers or hands.:biggrin:

[ChildsVOICE]

All this talk about wounds and rounds has made me dizzy. So I decided to write it up as follows. I know some of it is guesswork, but it would follow that the shells inside were from Vince and the shells outside or in or near the doorway would be from Tim. Now, if we could try to match up the appropriate shells to the appropriate wounds. Could these have been done by a single chipmunk? How about a single Mossburg. How about a single shooter period-or could more than one shooter be involved.

VINCENT ROMERO AUTOPSY
WOUND #1-Romero sustained an entry wound to the left arm above the elbow, the round passed through the arm creating an exit wound on the inside ofthe arm in the bicep. The round then struck a glancing blow to the ribcage without penetrating the body. This bullet was recovered inside the clothing.
WOUND #2-The next wound noted to Romero was a bullet wound to the head. A round struck him in the hard hat, penetrating the hat and entering the skull. The round then fragmented inside the skull, damaging the brain tissues. Dr. Porterfield described this as "an immediately incapacitating injury" when asked by myself and Deputy Watkins.
WOUND #3-A second bullet struck Romero in the left side ofthe head above the left ear. This round also fragmented and spread throughout the brain tissues. Fragments of these two rounds were recovered from
within the skull.
WOUND #4-The fourth round struck Romero in the back, near the center ofthe right shoulder blade. The round
traveled at a downward angle passing through the organs in the chest and coming to rest in the abdomen.
This round was recovered by the pathologist.

SHELL A [I]F-3rd step staircase-2nd stairwell VINCE
SHELL B [I]U-4th step-2nd stairwell VINCE
SHELL C [I]V-hallway 2nd floor VINCE
SHELL D [I]next to V?-2nd floor VINCE

TIMOTHY ROMANS AUTOPSY
WOUND #1-Romans' was shot once through the right arm creating an entry wound on the top of the right forearm. This round traveled through the arm creating an exit wound on the inside top ofthe forearm. This round then struck Romans' in the ribs, just below the right armpit creating a second entry wound before stopping in the abdomen.
WOUND #2-The second bullet wound struck Romans' in the chest. The bullet struck a marker that was clipped inside Romans' jacket, then entered his chest making a single hole to the right of center in his chest.
WOUND #3-A third bullet struck Romans' in the chest approximately 3-4 inches to the left of the second wound, resulting in a single entry wound. Both bullets were recovered from the abdomen.
WOUND #4-A fourth round struck Romans' in the back of the head. This wound was a "crease" or a gouge across the back ofRomans' head, with no entry or exit wounds. It is possible that this round also made the hole in the security door. This bullet was not recovered.
WOUND #5-The fifth wound noted was a single entry wound from a single gunshot that struck Romans on the
back of the head, on the right side. This round fragmented inside the head.
WOUND #6-A sixth wound was observed in
Romans' head. This round was discharged at close range resulting in tearing ofthe skin at the entry wound, . and resulting in what was described as a "keyhole" wound. This round fragmented inside the skull. Fragments from these ro~ds were recovered from inside the head.

SHELL A [O]X-patio front porch TIM
SHELL B [O]T-patio front porch TIM
SHELL C [O/I]?-front floor mat TIM
SHELL D [O/I]?-between front door/door frame TIM
SHELL E [I]E-2nd step staircase TIM
SHELL F [O/I]?-behind front door TIM


Can I double check this info and copy it to the boy's myspace page?

[ChildsVOICE]

Jacobtk: Lands and grooves from the rifling are not the miroscopic markings that can identify a fired bullet with a particular gun. It is like picking up a pencil and seeing if it has eight sides or twelve. Yeah I know pencils have six sides but like that.

Earlier I said that the Hornady round would not fit in the Chipmunk rifle's chamber. I might have been wrong. The Hornady case is skinnier, it would not work well, it might expode the case, the bullet might just drop out of the barrel. All the propellant would leak around the bullet as it went down the barrel. I just don't know.

So, this theory would be one more check mark in the boy's column. correct?

[ChildsVOICE]

Thanks so much for posting this, but do you have the original link. Is there more to this and is there some about Tim?

Looking deeper at this, it seems the shooter knew exactly "where" to shoot a person to cause death....seems like they were aiming at the head and the heart. IMO

Exactly...EXECUTION STYLE... you have to be trained AND experienced in shooting HUMANS to have pulled this off.

I've been told that a hitman, soldier, etc. would aim for the chest first to disable the victim. That area is easier to hit and stop them in their tracks or slow them down. Then you get more time and can even get right up close to finish the job in the head.

All the shots were in this manner.

[ChildsVOICE]

They mentioned fingerprints of the child on the box of bullets, but not on that 7A round. Good catch.

Where is this?

[ChildsVOICE]

Does anyone know where I heard that the shots to VR took only 3-4 seconds and a total of 16 seconds? Do NOT take this as gospel. That info may NOT be accurate. I may have read this earlier on another thread, here. OR a news report. I'm wanting to research that further and to link if we have the report.

Thanks.

[ChildsVOICE]

Five casings were found outdoors and five were found indoors. Had the Mossberg been used there would have been six outside and four inside.

Hawk: Believe it or not, I totally understand this. However, I actually believe there is a possibility that two guns were used by two shooters.

[GentleBreeze]

I have it on gooooood authority that the child only shot that particular gun a few times because the father and him had not had a chance to do too much with it, yet. So, NO he did not have the experience needed with that particular gun, yet.

Also, my little birdie told me the boy's fingers and hands were checked for bruising &/or pinching from supposedly pulling the trigger that many times and there was no signs of anything on the child's hands or fingers that would indicate he had shot the gun, not to mention 10+times!

Been waiting to give you all that little tidbit. Pretty important piece of tidbit, I would think.

Can you explain to me why the boy would have bruising on his fingers just because he pulled the trigger 10 times?

Why would the trigger pinch his finger? His finger goes over the trigger. Not under it.

imoo

[Good_Gawd]

Where is this?

In the chipmunk gun.

[Good_Gawd]

Sorry Good, I thought you were saying where the missing bullet was.:blushing:

imo it's in a body or in the white car. :biggrin:

[bkwits]

I wasn't sure about this before but this was in the Chicago Tribune that the new therapist, hired by Brewer and approved by judge, can be forced to testify

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-child-charged,0,5599704.story

[bkwits]

The more important question would be...why would some unknown adult assailant do this ?

The boy...well he's 8


What does your reply mean?:confused:

[Good_Gawd]

Mr. Amos is the top of the list.
Tiffany
Tanya
Tim's girlfriend, just propsed to her the night before
Tims' other recreational activity girlfriend
Just to name afew

I think a woman did it. So take Amos off and you have my list exactly.

[Cherishlove]

Did the cops ever check for tire prints that didn't match there vehicles or footprints that wouldn't match theres?

[Cherishlove]

I think a woman did it. So take Amos off and you have my list exactly.Someone could of hired a hit man, there was talk of Mexican Internationals they were having problems with too/fights at the bar? Maybe drug deal gone bad? Also Tims car was shot at prior too just seems to be alot suspects in my mind, and it's not a little boy.

[Good_Gawd]

Did the cops ever check for tire prints that didn't match there vehicles or footprints that wouldn't match theres?

In Gooberville? :blink: I don't think so.

[wolfi_2]

Okay lets..

known suspects that would have chosen to murder them both while the boy was supposed to be present. Boy walks up unexpectedly as car is leaving. This leaves his gun, the cell phone call, the book bag, blood spot to explain

or

the boy was present, the real murder is known to the boy and the child is still covering for this person.
Why would this adult chose to include the boy? Why murder them at the home during daylight hours. Why didn't they take anything? There isn't even an attempt to make it look like a burglary.


Then, what is the motive for the boy?

[Good_Gawd]

aside from Tiffany, could any of the other women shoot? Or did they have access for a hitman who would do it for drugs or a free tab at the bar????

I don't know if they could shoot besides Tiffany. But this was a rage killing. A hitman would have shot 4 shots total. 1 to the heart and one to the head of each man. imo

Tiffany and Leroy were the only people who knew exactly when the men would be home.

[wolfi_2]

The blood spot stain could be from a paper cut, it was found in the trash after all. Would the boy take time out to throw a paper with a blot spot in the trash in the midst of all that was going on??

Somebody else left the gun on the cage. The boy didn't have a clue it was on the cage. The backpack? I'm not sure what you are looking for there. Cell phone call. Did Tim actually answer the call?? Or was he dead already?

Oh, and as far as the boy being present. I think he got there after the fact. The shooters probably didn't care that he would be there, they would have killed him too.


Exact, he would be with his dad and Tim!

[Good_Gawd]

Then, what is the motive for the boy?

LE doesn't even have one. imo

[Perplexed1]

Okay lets..

known suspects that would have chosen to murder them both while the boy was supposed to be present. Boy walks up unexpectedly as car is leaving. This leaves his gun, the cell phone call, the book bag, blood spot to explain

or

the boy was present, the real murder is known to the boy and the child is still covering for this person.
Why would this adult chose to include the boy? Why murder them at the home during daylight hours. Why didn't they take anything? There isn't even an attempt to make it look like a burglary.

Crime of passion...........Tiffany ignoring little boy, certainly not coming to his aid. Could she have come home and headed back to the store for more alibi, little boy comes upon crime scene.

[Perplexed1]

Then, what is the motive for the boy?

If from spankings, he would have shot VR and Tif, not the two mwn. And they could easily have been shot in bed.

[wolfi_2]

LE doesn't even have one. imo

And if he have one, it can be that the victim’s families didn’t like to hear it.

[GentleBreeze]

Well, I don't know if it actually PROVES anything one way or another, but it certainly is just one more piece to the puzzle. I would think that an 8 year old handling a weapon he is inexperienced using and in the situation this occurred, he may have pinched a finger or two or at least have some kind of minor brusing from the kickback of the gun. I know when I went shooting the first time my hands were so sore!

Furthermore, it just adds one more piece of doubt to the states theory that the boy did this alone. No dropped shells. All shots seem to have hit their target. Shots to the chest and head. Being able to step over a fairly large man throught the stairwell. Not completely covered in blood. Inaccurate confession. It would seem to have been the perfect crime had it not been that call from Tanya. Oh....and the biggest red flag pointing AWAY from the boy???? He was an 8 year old 3rd grader who still believes in Santa Clause, loved his dad and has never shown any indication of behavior you would normally expect from a young sociopath.

Gentle Breeze....I think it is time you started to open your mind....the kid didn't do it.

This gun has no kickback.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Mr. Amos is the top of the list.
Tiffany
Tanya
Tim's girlfriend, just propsed to her the night before
Tims' other recreational activity girlfriend
Just to name afew

I think since the boy has been charged with the actual crimes, he should also be added to the suspect list.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

He was angry. The motive only needs to make sense to him.

Anger is a big motivator for murder. We see that time and time again.

imoo

[bkwits]

I think a woman did it. So take Amos off and you have my list exactly.

Is Amos Curley? I forgot. What about the Misti's crazy jealous boyfriend?

I'm leaning toward a male or males, maybe random.

[bkwits]

Anger is a big motivator for murder. We see that time and time again.

imoo

I agree. It is likely that someone or ones were angry at Tim and Vince. We have statements of that anger.

IMO

[bkwits]

Everyday children go to school after being severely abused. Physically as well as sexually and their teachers don't notice. More often than not...no one does.

Are you saying you think this child was abused?

[Kara]

I wonder if anyone showed up at a Hospital ER with a bullet wound.

If that does happen, does a Hospital have to notify LE?
Absolutely, so I don't think the missing bullet is in any person. A car would be a different story.

I agree with Ocean that there is no reason for this kid's fingers to show any evidence of firing the gun (if he did).

In regard to the location of the gun, I wonder why the boy "confessed" that he left the gun in the closet.

I'm not terribly concerned about the backpack..it could have slid off the chair it was dumped on. Where does the kitchen lay in comparison to where the front door is and the bodies?

[Cherishlove]

The time frame of the killings could be so Tiffany had a alibi, if it was done at night there would be alot of questions as why she was not killed too? The boy may have just been lucky he wasn't there at the time, but the hitman was probably just hired to kill the 2 men. There's alot of talk of Tiffany not being there for this child right now, that really bothers me and makes me wonder about her if this is even true I am just going by what I hear and I'm hoping I'm wrong, but if she is not she is my #1 suspect of wrong doing.

[GentleBreeze]

I agree. It is likely that someone or ones were angry at Tim and Vince. We have statements of that anger.

IMO

I do think someone was very angry. While we may think this level of anger hard to believe over a spanking, we aren't the one that had that anger reaction, imo this boy did.

I think Romans was killed because he would have been an eye witness. Just eliminated by being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I think most likely the back door was bolted with a deadbolt lock and this boy wasn't given a key. He could not go out the front where Tim would see him, knowing that Tim, once he had smoked and finished his phone call would be entering the home.

imo

[wolfi_2]

I am saying I don't know.
There is no evidence of it.
That alone, doesn't prove there wasn't any.

There can be some kind of abuse you doesn’t see, even as mental abuse and also sexual abuse, that can happened without any remarkable sign, and that kind of abuse would be indeed a motive. -In case he did it- So why should he shoot Tim execution stile? For all other reason’s, he had enough time to calm down before both men come home and if he loved his dad as everybody stated, he wouldn’t kill him.

[bkwits]

This gun has no kickback.

imoo

I know a hunter who would disagree with you. I will be seeing her shortly and ask again.

IMO

[GentleBreeze]

The time frame of the killings could be so Tiffany had a alibi, if it was done at night there would be alot of questions as why she was not killed too? The boy may have just been lucky he wasn't there at the time, but the hitman was probably just hired to kill the 2 men. There's alot of talk of Tiffany not being there for this child right now, that really bothers me and makes me wonder about her if this is even true I am just going by what I hear and I'm hoping I'm wrong, but if she is not she is my #1 suspect of wrong doing.


She would surely know about the rift at the bar so if she was going to kill them why not do it one night when they are coming out of the bar?

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

I know a hunter who would disagree with you. I will be seeing her shortly and ask again.

IMO


I don't have one problem with anyone disagreeing with me. I have shot this same type of weapon as a child, even younger than this boy and there was no kickback. I just go on my own personal experiences, not others.

imoo

[Perplexed1]

I meant the blood spot on his pants.

The boy's gun on the cage? So who put it there? The real murderer? They rummaged through house to find it, did this killer use the boys weapon in your scenario? to set the boy up? You think there were two killers involved and one was shot? Based on what? You think Tim was shot first?

If the boy got there after the fact, how did his book bag get under the kitchen table?

He got his gun-a scared little boy would. And I do beleive his original story that he put them out of misery

[FurthurBB]

Okay lets..

known suspects that would have chosen to murder them both while the boy was supposed to be present. Boy walks up unexpectedly as car is leaving. This leaves his gun, the cell phone call, the book bag, blood spot to explain

or

the boy was present, the real murder is known to the boy and the child is still covering for this person.
Why would this adult chose to include the boy? Why murder them at the home during daylight hours. Why didn't they take anything? There isn't even an attempt to make it look like a burglary.

I do not see a single problem with the book bag, blood spot, or cell phone call. If it is his habit to throw his book bag under the table, then he could have done it out of habit even if he was panicked or he could have put it there when he first came home from school before he left. the cell phone call is just questionable all together and even if it did happen the way Tanya said it happened it could have been a different person than the boy calling for Tim. The blood spot could be anything on a little boy, come on, I thought you said you had children. IMO

[GentleBreeze]

you've had him at the top of the list all along, and looks like you want him burned at the stake. Since he has been charged (wrongfully I might add) he does not need to be on the list of suspects. We are trying to figure who the killer or killers could be. It's not the boy.

We have no clue if he has been charged wrongfully unless you can show me he is out now and they have found exonerating evidence proving he didn't do this.

imoo

[muska]

Is Amos Curley? I forgot. What about the Misti's crazy jealous boyfriend?

I'm leaning toward a male or males, maybe random.

Amos is one person and Larry Curley is another. Amos quit, although he told people he was fired, and Tim got his supervisory job. Larry Curley was VRs foreman on the job and is the person who supposedly gave VR a hard time about taking time off to go to the doctor's appt wiht Tiffany. VR and TR threatened to quit over Curley's behavior. One of the interviewed employees said that VR had problems with Curley.

[wolfi_2]

Like I said. The motive makes sense to the boy.

Special sexual abuse is not only for the boy a motive… it’s self defence!

[FurthurBB]

I meant the blood spot on his pants.

The boy's gun on the cage? So who put it there? The real murderer? They rummaged through house to find it, did this killer use the boys weapon in your scenario? to set the boy up? You think there were two killers involved and one was shot? Based on what? You think Tim was shot first?

If the boy got there after the fact, how did his book bag get under the kitchen table?

I think the gun on the cage, if it is not the murder weapon, was just a red herring. It shot .22 LRs and was right there so they assumed it was the weapon. It could have been there for days for all we know. That house was a pigsty and not one adult in that house had any common sense to keep weapons unloaded and locked up. IMO

[GentleBreeze]

I will post this again since you obviously didn't see it.

I can't imagine any child brooding all night and all the next day over something their parents did and then come up with such a over kill murder. The child's demeanor would have been such that the teacher would have known something wrong was going on with the child during the school day, wouldn't she?

Many times the red flags are there and the teachers don't pick up on it. He may have been quiet, deep in thought so if he wasn't disruptive she probably paid no mind to it.


Of course it is hard to imagine that a child will seethe or brood over being spanked but it being hard to imagine doesn't mean it didn't happen.

It is hard to comprehend that juveniles will murder their parent or parents simply because they were angry with them that they didn't get to do what they wanted or were mad they had to do chores or were put on restriction but it happens.



imoo

[muska]

He got his gun-a scared little boy would. And I do beleive his original story that he put them out of misery

I still think that gun could have been sitting there all day, maybe all week in that house. It may not even turn out to be the murder weapon.

[muska]

I think the gun on the cage, if it is not the murder weapon, was just a red herring. It shot .22 LRs and was right there so they assumed it was the weapon. It could have been there for days for all we know. That house was a pigsty and not one adult in that house had any common sense to keep weapons unloaded and locked up. IMO

Oh, you just got to that before me!!

[GentleBreeze]

Yes, and a woman who was proposed to the night before by a man who is already married has plenty to be angry about too as well as the man's wife and the other extra curricular activity girl. So does Mr. Amos have reason to be angry. Tiffany had reason to be angry too since she wanted children and VR did not. The men the VR and TR had a disagreement with apparently were angry as well.

Where has it been verified that Vinnie did not want anymore children. I have never seen that reported anywhere.

If Tiffany was angry that he didn't want anymore kids then why kill Tim? I am sure he would have gone to the bar later on that night.

Why would a proposal cause someone to kill Tim Romans? Do you mean his girlfriend? She wasn't married so why would she kill him if she wanted to marry him and he had just asked her?

We have no idea if Tanya even knew about the 170 mile away relationship, until after he was murdered.

Does Amos drive a white car with no rims on the back? I thought he drove a white Ford Ranger truck?

imoo

[wolfi_2]

I think the gun on the cage, if it is not the murder weapon, was just a red herring. It shot .22 LRs and was right there so they assumed it was the weapon. It could have been there for days for all we know. That house was a pigsty and not one adult in that house had any common sense to keep weapons unloaded and locked up. IMO

-And that make the adult’s responsible for that what happened, if the boy did it!

[GentleBreeze]

my point is that children that young do not hold a grudge that long to the point of the anger sitting to the point of this type of murder. Adults will hold grudges and stay longer than most kids. He hasn't shown any signs in the past of poor anger management. So, I find it difficult to believe he walked around all day seething in anger for the remainder of the night before after the spankings and all the next day.

The simple truth is though iam, is we don't know what all children can do or not do. Children are not clones. What one child may be capable of doing is different from what another child may do or not do.

Yes, it is hard to comprehend but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

imo

[wolfi_2]

Most kids don't murder their parents. But some do. I don't know why some do...maybe they hold grudges, maybe their brains are wired wrong...No one has the hard fast answer. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

They simply get onto weapon’s that are not secured locked away, I think all that killings would we have too, if we haven’t that strict weapons law in Europe. And here are parent’s responsible for there kids!

[GentleBreeze]

wrongfully charged yes. the confession was coerced. the other "evidence" they have hasn't even had reports come back pointing directly to him yet. so yes, wrongfully charged.

If Judge Roca knew he had been wrongfully charged the case would have been dismissed.

imoo