1-15 - 1/17

[bkwits]

bkwits, The above is the original post I was responding too.

And this was the part of your post that I was responding to.



[QUOTE]If the killer was anyone else but the boy, they would have used a different gun, in a different location, at a different time. Especially if the killer knew the men and knew there were weapons in the truck and in the house IMO [QUOTE]

[bkwits]

You're probably right but...what if the agitated new murderer goes completely out of his freakin mind. All that noise, all the blood. Best 'friends' are outside in the white car. Murderer panics, bolts, car takes off as 8 year old comes home.

Look, I gotta say, that makes more sense to me than a child who is described by lots of people as a nice, normal boy coming home then going psychotic with a rifle. Because he didn't want to be spanked. That makes no sense to me.


I agree. Plus why in the world would he kill Tim. Tim was not a witness to Vinces's murder, by the pros. scenario, so why not either hide in the house or run out the back door. I mean this is supposed to be one smart thinking quick moving kid. :confused:

[bkwits]

Then with the DA and a few goober cops that makes about 5 of you left then.
:rolleyes:
Even the Roman's say they don't think the boy did it anymore.


Three on this board. :sneaky:

[Hawk]

OK. Say you're on crack or actually meth. That's the drug of choice I understand in St' John's. You're in the house searching for drugs or money or whatever and 2 men pull up in a truck. You know they live there. You see a .22 rifle or Chipmunk or whatever was used for the murders. You're pretty agitated as it is then one man comes in and heads upstairs. You're upstairs - you fire. This assuming the 1st shot came from upstairs. Has the wonderful homicide investigation put together the order in which the shots were fired?

...you're in the house searching for money or drugs and 2 men pull up in a truck. You know they live there. You've already looked under the bed in the master bedroom and you saw four rifle cases there. You pull a case out and a gun from it. It happens to be a tiny .22 kids rifle. You leave a powerful 30-06, a deadly 22-250, and a big 7mm-08 under the bed. Okay, no time to be choosey. You have the .22 in your hands. It's a single shot so now you have to find ammo. You hear the front door open and a man is coming up the stairs. Luckily you just happen find a box of .22s among the scattered clothes and general mess and put some of the cartridges in your pocket. You load one shot into the rifle, but you don't know how to cock it. You fumble around a bit then figure it out and step out through the bedroom door and shoot the man just as he approaches. You reload and shoot him again. He's down and bleeding. Brain jelly on the wall. You step over him and down the stairs reloading as you go. As you step down to the first floor you see the back door is only 15' away. The man in the truck is still there talking on a cell phone. You consider going out the back door but decide 'what the hell' I might just as well shoot that other guy too. So you walk to the front door, and imitating a child's voice, you call his name, because you know his name. The man starts walking toward the house and you shoot him til you feel better. You then go back upstairs to shot the first guy some more, and do. Then you walk back down to the 1st floor where you lay the little gun on a dog cage. Inside the cage is a boxer puppy barking madly. You then stride outside where a small white car has been waiting and drive away, grateful that the dead men hadn't noticed the car.
Then you remember that you didn't steal anything.

[Hawk]

OK The bits I bolded are supposition Your Honor. So the first shots came from upstairs? One of the shots creased Romans' head. He goes down but he's not out. Drug wannabe hitman is much agitated. And so it goes.

Why do you find it that much harder to believe that some dude off his brain with meth would commit these murders than an 8 year old kid.

I would think that someone whose brain is addled with this cr** would have the brain power of an 8 year old. And from what I read on here from people who know a lot more about firearms than I do, it wouldn't take much ability to have committed these murders.

I'm not being sarcastic. With a few adjustments I think this fits. The biggest problem is Mrs. Romans statement that she heard the boy. I think you're right because a meth head burglar without his own weapon could have done this. If the back door was dead-bolted (key not lever) he couldn't have used it. He would have been trapped with the front door his only way out. It makes more sense, to me anyway, than co-workers, and a 1000 times more sense than hit-men. Also there's motive against both men.
If this scenario is correct that means the boy found the men dead and didn't shoot anyone. Or worst case 'put them out of their misery'. We've got to get past Mrs. Romans though.

[bkwits]

...you're in the house searching for money or drugs and 2 men pull up in a truck. You know they live there. You've already looked under the bed in the master bedroom and you saw four rifle cases there. You pull a case out and a gun from it. It happens to be a tiny .22 kids rifle. You leave a powerful 30-06, a deadly 22-250, and a big 7mm-08 under the bed. Okay, no time to be choosey. You have the .22 in your hands. It's a single shot so now you have to find ammo. You hear the front door open and a man is coming up the stairs. Luckily you just happen find a box of .22s among the scattered clothes and general mess and put some of the cartridges in your pocket. You load one shot into the rifle, but you don't know how to cock it. You fumble around a bit then figure it out and step out through the bedroom door and shoot the man just as he approaches. You reload and shoot him again. He's down and bleeding. Brain jelly on the wall. You step over him and down the stairs reloading as you go. As you step down to the first floor you see the back door is only 15' away. The man in the truck is still there talking on a cell phone. You consider going out the back door but decide 'what the hell' I might just as well shoot that other guy too. So you walk to the front door, and imitating a child's voice, you call his name, because you know his name. The man starts walking toward the house and you shoot him til you feel better. You then go back upstairs to shot the first guy some more, and do. Then you walk back down to the 1st floor where you lay the little gun on a dog cage. Inside the cage is a boxer puppy barking madly. You then stride outside where a small white car has been waiting and drive away, grateful that the dead men hadn't noticed the car.
Then you remember that you didn't steal anything.

We don't know that nothing was stolen. My personal favorite is a revenge killing. You know, very often murder makes no sense at all. Im my area, we had a druggie who broke into 4 houses, one right after the other. In the house near me, he took some guitars or something like that, and overlooked the money. if this was a burglary went wrong, the perp wasn't thinking about going through their pockets, he hadn't even planned to kill anyone. He just wanted to get the H out of there.

[Hawk]

We don't know that nothing was stolen. My personal favorite is a revenge killing. You know, very often murder makes no sense at all. Im my area, we had a druggie who broke into 4 houses, one right after the other. In the house near me, he took some guitars or something like that, and overlooked the money. if this was a burglary went wrong, the perp wasn't thinking about going through their pockets, he hadn't even planned to kill anyone. He just wanted to get the H out of there.

You're right we don't know that nothing was stolen.

[bkwits]

By the way, the guns were not always put away, as the child said. So maybe the chipmunk was just laying around in plain sight or maybe another .22. We don't know the Chipmunk was used. Maybe the killer took the gun with him. That would be the most likely, IMO.

[Hawk]

It's cool. I know you're not being sarky. What I've read here today about Mrs Romans doesn't give me a lot of faith in her veracity.:unsure:

I wish we knew the cell phone records evidence. Even with it I think it'd be hard to prove what she really heard.
The thing about the chose of rifle may not mean much either because we really don't know where the Chipmunk was to start with, although I think Liz said it was in the closet, but I believe Tiffany said all the guns were under her bed.

[bkwits]

This has been really good discourse, but I have to go to sleep.

Good night :seeya:

[Hawk]

By the way, the guns were not always put away, as the child said. So maybe the chipmunk was just laying around in plain sight or maybe another .22. We don't know the Chipmunk was used. Maybe the killer took the gun with him. That would be the most likely, IMO.

I think the Chipmunk was used, simply because we have to go on the evidence we have, but that doesn't mean the boy pulled the trigger. Certainly not in this scenario. Right?

[Hawk]

G'night Bikwits.

Hawk, I just can't get my head around an 8 year old doing this. It makes no sense. Given what people say about him before the double murders. Given the fact that it's more than likely drugs were involved in the murder. IMO.

So lets close the gaps on your crack head burglar with no weapon of his own. I think it can be done. The evidence isn't against it, except for the cell phone call. The timeline might be a slight problem too. But maybe not. He did say he came home and they both were down.

[Hawk]

Time flies!

Good Night.

[PensiveOne]

G'night Hawk. I'm still here. And will be for a while.

Where is there an inventory of the house where all the weapons were. Where is there a list of all the cell calls made?

Spare me the 'St John's wonderful homicide investigation'.

What is there to prove, beside that awful videotape, that the 8 year old murdered 2 men? And I mean prove.

Good morning. Looks like y'all had a good discussion last night:) I would love to see that list of cell calls. Especially for TR's wife. If I list all of the suspects, which I have done, and their motives, she has the stongest motive. Why would she implicate the boy? Because she knew he was there. Not from the call with her husband, but from the person or persons in the white car. Why would they use the boy's gun? I don't know that they did. I still want to know where the Mossburg is. I want to know if anybody else called her around the time of the murder. Does she have another cell phone that nobody knows about? She seems to only be concerned about the money TR was providing to her. She is uncooperative with the police, why? She is the first to get a lawyer. Just food for thought:smile:

[wolfi_2]

I am not quite sure that can be answered. First we would have to be murdered by our children and on this Earth the dead can't think or speak.

It reminds of another juvenile murder case where the boy's mother, who was a State Trooper, turned her son in to face the consequences of his actions.

So would we just want all of our parental teaching to turn out to mean nothing? All the teachings that everyone must be held responsible for their own actions? All the teachings about accountability and responsibility?

But it isn't up to Vinnie or Tim and what they may have wanted nor even the family members. When someone breaks one of the laws in this country it is the duty of the DAs to seek justice for the murder victims.

So to me that question just cant be answered.

imo


I don’t make any secrets about my opinion, for me it’s irrelevant if the boy did it or not! He doesn’t belong in any jail cell. If there is a good family around him, he belongs to his family and to someone who loves him.

-I would nobody allow to murder me or near family member’s or someone else.

-So what is about parental teaching? I’m sure most of all parent’s teach there children more or less responsibility for there action’s. But in my opinion parent’s are still responsible for there children until they turned into an age you can be sure a kid really knows what it does with all there ramification’s. This age is truly a few more year’s, than this boy is. That’s the reason why kids of eight can’t have a driver licence, for example.
There are a few people who want to set a sign for all the 8 and 9 year’s old's that they have to go in prison (punished) or have to stay along time without anybody who really love them in a closed facility. If I search through the net, and you haven’t to search very long, you find a lot of children who are tried as adult, a contradiction it self, the intention was to set a sign! All those kid’s are facing a, for a kid unbelievable long, sentence, there are kid’s who get there life sentence without parole at the age of 13 or 14! That’s like a death penalty but very slow and hurtful. Those people who think they set a sign, are definitive totally wrong, this sign doesn’t work, as one of the poster’s here stated some post’s before in one of the last thread’s, the number’s of homicides are still increasing. So what is wrong now?

In this case the boy can simply get onto the weapon, because it was not locked away, he maybe shoot both man to death. Whose fault is it? The boy’s? Than, he surely had a good reason, reasons we adult are don’t understand!
-Or the irresponsible adult’s who let the weapons available for the boy? -If the weapon’s where locked away, I think that case would never been happened.
I personal come to the conclusion, if the adult’s are responsible for there children they would normally lock the weapon’s away, simply and easy to understand. That the way we do it here in Germany, and we haven’t nearly no homicide where children are involved and I’m sure our children are not better human’s than the US children.
At least, I feel sorry and respect the victim’s families for there loss, but if the boy really did the shootings, I and that’s my opinion, give the adult’s a higher amount of guilt as the boy. If the boy did it, he sure punished him self enough, then the memories are coming back, again and again.

[PensiveOne]

Wolfi, I agree with you that our juvenile justice system needs to be revamped. It is not working well and there are lots of statistics out there to prove that it actually makes kids who went into the system and had minor offenses, come out as worse delinquents. If a child this age goes in for years, what can we expect when he comes out?

[GentleBreeze]

I don’t make any secrets about my opinion, for me it’s irrelevant if the boy did it or not! He doesn’t belong in any jail cell. If there is a good family around him, he belongs to his family and to someone who loves him.

-I would nobody allow to murder me or near family member’s or someone else.

-So what is about parental teaching? I’m sure most of all parent’s teach there children more or less responsibility for there action’s. But in my opinion parent’s are still responsible for there children until they turned into an age you can be sure a kid really knows what it does with all there ramification’s. This age is truly a few more year’s, than this boy is. That’s the reason why kids of eight can’t have a driver license, for example.
There are a few people who want to set a sign for all the 8 and 9 year’s old's that they have to go in prison (punished) or have to stay along time without anybody who really love them in a closed facility. If I search through the net, and you haven’t to search very long, you find a lot of children who are tried as adult, a contradiction it self, the intention was to set a sign! All those kid’s are facing a, for a kid unbelievable long, sentence, there are kid’s who get there life sentence without parole at the age of 13 or 14! That’s like a death penalty but very slow and hurtful. Those people who think they set a sign, are definitive totally wrong, this sign doesn’t work, as one of the poster’s here stated some post’s before in one of the last thread’s, the number’s of homicides are still increasing. So what is wrong now?

In this case the boy can simply get onto the weapon, because it was not locked away, he maybe shoot both man to death. Whose fault is it? The boy’s? Than, he surely had a good reason, reasons we adult are don’t understand!
-Or the irresponsible adult’s who let the weapons available for the boy? -If the weapon’s where locked away, I think that case would never been happened.
I personal come to the conclusion, if the adult’s are responsible for there children they would normally lock the weapon’s away, simply and easy to understand. That the way we do it here in Germany, and we haven’t nearly no homicide where children are involved and I’m sure our children are not better human’s than the US children.
At least, I feel sorry and respect the victim’s families for there loss, but if the boy really did the shootings, I and that’s my opinion, give the adult’s a higher amount of guilt as the boy. If the boy did it, he sure punished him self enough, then the memories are coming back, again and again.

I do respect your opinion highly, Wolfi.

I do not think the answer is to just let these young juveniles go home scott free as if nothing ever happened and no justice ever given to the deceased murdered victims whatsoever. While I do understand why some want to blame them, they murdered no one and they certainly didn't deserve to be killed outright.

Mr. Romans had no responsibility or authority at all in the Romero home. He was an outsider that only rented a room during the week.

Holding people accountable for their OWN action should always be done. Blaming others does not negate that it is their acts that broke the law and shatter many more lives than just their own.

I do not blame the victims simply because the murderer chose this method or tool from the home to commit the murder. Just as I wouldn't blame the parent or parents if murdered by a kitchen knife that mom had in her kitchen or if a baseball bat was used that the parent may have bought the youthful offender.

Vinnie did not teach this boy to shoot human beings. Even the boy said that his father was to be in his presence every time he used the gun, even the air rifle. So the boy knew getting the gun that day was very wrong and was the opposite of what his father had tried to teach him.

I don't know what the answer is but to have no punishment at all is like saying that Vinnie and Tim, never mattered at all and I do not believe that is true. They both had as much right to live just as much as this boy does. It is like saying the age of the defendant will determine and control, whether justice will ever be served for the people that have been cruelly murdered.

While it is nice that you don't have youthful homicides in your country, unfortunately, in this country we do, and stabbings have even increased greatly as a method used by youthful offenders and the offenders are becoming younger and younger. It cannot be dealt with by just patting the offenders on the head and sending them on their way imo.

It isn't about a driving license at a certain age, he didnt steal a car. It is about committing premeditated double homicide.

I am sure all people who kill think they have a "good reason" at the time, even if it turns out to be totally nonsensical to others.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Good-Morning!

Excellent post:thumbsup:

It's 8 degrees here...:w00t: Everyone else is sound asleep and I'm just getting caught up.

Good Morning,

It is 29 degrees here.

8 degrees? :ohmy: Burrrrr.

[bkwits]

Anyone happen to remember anyone mentioning that the boy actually wanted to go for the interview? I seem to remember someone saying that boy actually said he wanted to go so that he could help find whoever did this. I would think that if he did do it, he would not volunteer to go to that interview. That would take brass cajones even for an adult.

IMO

Mornin' MzMary

I don't recall that. Your are referring to the "interrogation"?

[muska]

Anyone happen to remember anyone mentioning that the boy actually wanted to go for the interview? I seem to remember someone saying that boy actually said he wanted to go so that he could help find whoever did this. I would think that if he did do it, he would not volunteer to go to that interview. That would take brass cajones even for an adult.

IMO

I don't remember that from anywhere.

Maybe you're thinking of another case. I know Marty Tankleff offered to help police in an interview and ended up giving a false confession. He spent 17 year in prison before being released and all charges dropped.....only 17 when arrested so half his life was spent locked up for something he didn't do.

[bkwits]

I don't remember that from anywhere.

Maybe you're thinking of another case. I know Marty Tankleff offered to help police in an interview and ended up giving a false confession. He spent 17 year in prison before being released and all charges dropped.....only 17 when arrested so half his life was spent locked up for something he didn't do.


Yes, I can think of a few cases like that, but not juveniles. 19 year old Rolando Cruz (Nicarico murder) thought he might cash in on the reward money. He knew nothing of the crime, but spent 11 years on death row before DNA exonerated him.

[Good_Gawd]

I don't remember that from anywhere.

Maybe you're thinking of another case. I know Marty Tankleff offered to help police in an interview and ended up giving a false confession. He spent 17 year in prison before being released and all charges dropped.....only 17 when arrested so half his life was spent locked up for something he didn't do.
He is going to be an attorney now isn't he? Maybe he is already. I forget.

[bkwits]

I do respect your opinion highly, Wolfi.

I do not think the answer is to just let these young juveniles go home scott free as if nothing ever happened and no justice ever given to the deceased murdered victims whatsoever. While I do understand why some want to blame them, they murdered no one and they certainly didn't deserve to be killed outright.

Mr. Romans had no responsibility or authority at all in the Romero home. He was an outsider that only rented a room during the week.

Holding people accountable for their OWN action should always be done. Blaming others does not negate that it is their acts that broke the law and shatter many more lives than just their own.

I do not blame the victims simply because the murderer chose this method or tool from the home to commit the murder. Just as I wouldn't blame the parent or parents if murdered by a kitchen knife that mom had in her kitchen or if a baseball bat was used that the parent may have bought the youthful offender.

Vinnie did not teach this boy to shoot human beings. Even the boy said that his father was to be in his presence every time he used the gun, even the air rifle. So the boy knew getting the gun that day was very wrong and was the opposite of what his father had tried to teach him.

I don't know what the answer is but to have no punishment at all is like saying that Vinnie and Tim, never mattered at all and I do not believe that is true. They both had as much right to live just as much as this boy does. It is like saying the age of the defendant will determine and control, whether justice will ever be served for the people that have been cruelly murdered.

While it is nice that you don't have youthful homicides in your country, unfortunately, in this country we do, and stabbings have even increased greatly as a method used by youthful offenders and the offenders are becoming younger and younger. It cannot be dealt with by just patting the offenders on the head and sending them on their way imo.

It isn't about a driving license at a certain age, he didnt steal a car. It is about committing premeditated double homicide.

I am sure all people who kill think they have a "good reason" at the time, even if it turns out to be totally nonsensical to others.

imoo

You speak of justice for the men who were shot? What about justice for the child? Is it justice that he is locked up in solitary confinement for months, and dragged into the court in chains based on a so-called confession that even the pros has decided not to use?

Is it justice that the child has been denied the civil rights that would be afforded to you or to me?

Is it justice for the victims if they convict this child, (which, but for Wood and Brewer) would prob be very easy to do, and the actual killers are still victimizing others?

Your speech of justice has a very hollow ring to it. It sounds more like vengeance. IMO

[muska]

He is going to be an attorney now isn't he? Maybe he is already. I forget.

I think that's his plan. He got an associate's degree while in prison.

There are a lot of similarities to this case. Tankleff woke up in the house and his parents were dead and then the lead detective thought he showed "insufficient emotion" for the situation and it was all downhill after that. The police lied and told him that his father had identified him as the killer, much as they told CR that Tim had identified him. There was never any physical evidence, only the confession. And that confession was pretty much as ridiculous as the one given by CR. Even though there was no blood or bruises on the 17 year old, there was never an investigation into any other possibilities. The person Tankleff told the police to check out is the main suspect today but it's too late, he'll never be charged. Tankleff spent all those years in prison because a bad cop decided that he was the killer within hours of the crime.

I hope the same doesn't happen to CR.

[Good_Gawd]

there was only one gun in the truck. the other one he owned was not there. no one has said where his second gun is? I'd like to know where it is.

Also, there is a missing gun from upstairs. Where is it? Anyone could have come and used their own .22. They haven't come back and reported that the Chipmunk is the actual murder weapon. That is shear speculation.

To match bullets to a gun takes seconds. Why further testing? LOL, If the Gun don't fit!!!

[JD1974]

Grieving Widow my :cursing:
http://axtonromero.blogspot.com/2008/11/tiffany-romero-in-town.html

Did you read the 2 comments on there???:ohmy:

[Good_Gawd]

Did you read the 2 comments on there???:ohmy:
:scared:
I wonder if the family thinks she did it too?? I know I would have deleted those comments OMG!

[GentleBreeze]

You speak of justice for the men who were shot? What about justice for the child? Is it justice that he is locked up in solitary confinement for months, and dragged into the court in chains based on a so-called confession that even the pros has decided not to use?

Is it justice that the child has been denied the civil rights that would be afforded to you or to me?

Is it justice for the victims if they convict this child, (which, but for Wood and Brewer) would prob be very easy to do, and the actual killers are still victimizing others?

Your speech of justice has a very hollow ring to it. It sounds more like vengeance. IMO

I don't recall anywhere that he was drug into court. He is in handcuffs and shackles. He is a defendant and that is the rule of the court. Judge Roca is sitting right there every time and imo, knows that it is a customary rule for all offenders to be brought into court in this same manner.

The confession does not mean that this case cant go forward. John Couey's confession was also tossed yet the case went forward.

The State must prove their case against this boy so I am not sure what you are referring to when you say "what if" the killers are still out there. There is no evidence that I am aware of that there is another killer out there. If there was, then the defense attorney would be giving this exonerating evidence to Judge Roca ASAP.

Justice should not be denied to the two men that were murdered. Justice shouldn't depend on an age of any defendant to determine whether justice is denied or given. Yes, if found guilty, he needs to be punished, instead of patted on the head and set free without any accountability whatsoever. He also should be given extensive mental therapy treatment while in the detention center.

The only vengeance I see is what was done by the killer of these two men. Punishment is never vengeance when someone breaks the laws of our land. It is about being accountable and responsible for one's own actions and the consequences of those actions, according to the rules of law that govern our country.

imo

[Cherishlove]

I don't recall anywhere that he was drug into court. He is in handcuffs and shackles. He is a defendant and that is the rule of the court. Judge Roca is sitting right there every time and imo, knows that it is a customary rule for all offenders to be brought into court in this same manner.

The confession does not mean that this case cant go forward. John Couey's confession was also tossed yet the case went forward.

The State must prove their case against this boy so I am not sure what you are referring to when you say "what if" the killers are still out there. There is no evidence that I am aware of that there is another killer out there. If there was, then the defense attorney would be giving this exonerating evidence to Judge Roca ASAP.

Justice should not be denied to the two men that were murdered. Justice shouldn't depend on an age of any defendant to determine whether justice is denied or given. Yes, if found guilty, he needs to be punished, instead of patted on the head and set free without any accountability whatsoever. He also should be given extensive mental therapy treatment while in the detention center.

The only vengeance I see is what was done by the killer of these two men. Punishment is never vengeance when someone breaks the laws of our land. It is about being accountable and responsible for one's own actions and the consequences of those actions, according to the rules of law that govern our country.

imoThe reason you say there is no evidence that another killer is out there is they stopped investigating after the coached confession within 20 hours???? There were many that had motive and they should of had high profile Crime Detectives come in and they should of investigated all the people that had motive indepthly but they didn't do that.

[Hawk]

Guinn's report said that there were 2 shots to Roman's chest. The shots were so close they formed one wound. That imo would require pretty darn good shooting for a single shot gun. To be able to aim, shoot, empty, reload, and refire in the approximate same location. Is the victim going to just stand there waiting for the second shot? I really believe a single shot gun could not have done this. imo

The victim could very well have 'frozen in place' after being shot. It happens often in combat.

[Cherishlove]

:scared:
I wonder if the family thinks she did it too?? I know I would have deleted those comments OMG!
I can't believe she even allowed that to be posted?? Stating she was out partying????

[Hawk]

I don’t make any secrets about my opinion, for me it’s irrelevant if the boy did it or not! He doesn’t belong in any jail cell. If there is a good family around him, he belongs to his family and to someone who loves him.


I think it's extremely relevant if the boy did it. The courts conclusion will have enormous impact on not only him, but family, friends, and observers forever. It could well set new standards for the juvenile court system.
I do, however, agree, and have from the start, that he shouldn't be in jail.

[Hawk]

in the chest, bullet going through the chest organs?????

For the time it took for another shot. Absolutely. Until his brain told his legs to give it up and his knees buckled.

[Good_Gawd]

who is the guy with the chin hair in the photo with her??

Wood asked the same question.

It is the girl that owns the website's 30 yr. old unmarried brother Chris.

[JD1974]

Wow...the anonymous post was strange enough, but I wonder if Jennifer is actually someone she knows???



I don't know, but whoever she is, she sure has an opinion doesn't she!

[JD1974]

:scared:
I wonder if the family thinks she did it too?? I know I would have deleted those comments OMG!


I would have too, unless they haven't noticed them yet? I am not sure how they could of missed them though...

[JD1974]

who is the guy with the chin hair in the photo with her??


Isn't that her BIL?


Sorry I was thinking of whose site it was..I don't know who that is.

[Good_Gawd]

The date is time stamped on the photo. Less than 3 weeks after the murder. Party on!!!!!!!!!

That is what I said. :lol::lol::lol:

[Good_Gawd]

so, Tiffany is hanging out with drug users??

She hangs out with her sister. The meth head.

[Hawk]

where are these items?:

gun from upstairs

Tim's second gun

bullet shot which grazed Tim's head and suspected as being what caused the hole in the bottom of the security door?

As far as I know there is no missing gun from upstairs. There's an empty Mossberg box but that doesn't mean anything. It's probably Leroy Romero's, but that's just a guess.
Mr. Romans could have sold or traded his .44 mag revolver. It's common for men to do so. It could have been stolen or he gave it to someone. Regardless of what to it, it wasn't used in the murders.
The tiny bullet that grazed Mr. Romans' head then went through the security door could be a 50 yards away. The hole in the door was made by a small caliber bullet.

[Hawk]

perfectly still where the second bullet hit so close to the first? Is this from a single shot or semi auto that a person would stand perfectly still??

The weapon used isn't important. Soldiers are hit with much more powerful ammo and 'freeze in place' before falling. The length of time has several variables.

[bkwits]

I don't recall anywhere that he was drug into court. He is in handcuffs and shackles. He is a defendant and that is the rule of the court. Judge Roca is sitting right there every time and imo, knows that it is a customary rule for all offenders to be brought into court in this same manner.

The confession does not mean that this case cant go forward. John Couey's confession was also tossed yet the case went forward.

The State must prove their case against this boy so I am not sure what you are referring to when you say "what if" the killers are still out there. There is no evidence that I am aware of that there is another killer out there. If there was, then the defense attorney would be giving this exonerating evidence to Judge Roca ASAP.

Justice should not be denied to the two men that were murdered. Justice shouldn't depend on an age of any defendant to determine whether justice is denied or given. Yes, if found guilty, he needs to be punished, instead of patted on the head and set free without any accountability whatsoever. He also should be given extensive mental therapy treatment while in the detention center.

The only vengeance I see is what was done by the killer of these two men. Punishment is never vengeance when someone breaks the laws of our land. It is about being accountable and responsible for one's own actions and the consequences of those actions, according to the rules of law that govern our country.

imo

I am sure you understood that "dragged into court" was not necessarily a literal term.

As for the rest of your post, you contradict yourself, IMO. You say he should be "punished" yet you propose extensive therapy for this child.

We don't know what the evidence is at this time. Without the illegal confession, there was no evidence to lock him up. He was denied justice under our constitution. How is that helping the victims.

[Hawk]

was the tiny bullet a .22??

Yes. According to the ME.

[Perplexed1]

which may be why he sounded detached toward the end. His speach was more sure and quick than when they led him to confess. He had to think of answers and come up with answers he thought they wanted to hear so he could get out of there. He basically quit talking, "I think", no response, he wasn't confident during his answers then, he was having to come up with something to satisfy them.

We all remember how OJ was 'the morning after', very distraught and running (in white bronco) from the scene in his mind. Hey, is he still locked up? :wink: The little voice didn't match what happened the night before. I still say he wimped down realizing he HAD got the gun, and wasn't supposed to have it, and yes he shot them, even it was to just put them out of their misery.

[Hawk]

if they never found the bullet and it wasn't in Romans body, then how could the ME know it was a .22??

and, if the bullet went through the bottom of the security door, wouldn't the shooter have to have been shoot low for it to graze his head, and wouldn't the shooter have to have been shooting from outside towards the door which was held open because Tim was found on the ground holding the door open???

From the graze channel on his head.

Yes. At least that's my understanding. The bullet struck the skull at an indirect angle and ricocheted upwards a bit then went through the security door from the outside to inside.
I believe the door wouldn't fully open because Mr. Romans presented an obstacle.

[PensiveOne]

Now that you mention that the .17 cal plastic ammo box in the photo looks like a collection of several different types of ammo. The ones pointing up look to have primers which would make them centerfire cartridges, not .22s or .17s (which are rimfire).
Is there another site that has this picture that can be downloaded and zoomed? The ones I've seen from Kpho TV won't allow you to copy, or save the photos.

Hawk, where did you see a picture of the ammo box open? Or am I reading this wrong?

[GentleBreeze]

The reason you say there is no evidence that another killer is out there is they stopped investigating after the coached confession within 20 hours???? There were many that had motive and they should of had high profile Crime Detectives come in and they should of investigated all the people that had motive indepthly but they didn't do that.

How do you know they stopped investigating? There are always primary interviews done when the crime is unfolding just like in this case.

In the many supplemental discovery motions turned over to the defense throughout this case shows that there has been further interviews and re-interviews.

imo

[Perplexed1]

the boy didn't run from the scene though.

The neighbor said he couldn't talk to Tiffany on the phone about what he found, he was in shock. Was calm next morning, wanted to help with finding out what happened!

[Hawk]

Hawk, where did you see a picture of the ammo box open? Or am I reading this wrong?

It's open just a tad in the Kpho news photos. Looks like centerfire ammo to me. If we had a down-loadable shot of the box and could zoom in, maybe we could better determine what's inside.
Anyone have a link?

[PensiveOne]

It's open just a tad in the Kpho news photos. If we had a down-loadable shot of the box and could zoom in, maybe we could better determine what's inside.
Anyone have a link?

Thanks, I'll go look.

[Hawk]

How do you know they stopped investigating? There are always primary interviews done when the crime is unfolding just like in this case.

In the many supplemental discovery motions turned over to the defense throughout this case shows that there has been further interviews and re-interviews.

imo

We know that Mr. Brewer hasn't stopped his investigation.

[GentleBreeze]

The weapon used isn't important. Soldiers are hit with much more powerful ammo and 'freeze in place' before falling. The length of time has several variables.

I agree. This is the post I put up the other day that discusses how the person can react when they are threatened with a violent attack right out of the blue.

Also I think many are giving the two dead victims way too much credit on their supposedly abilities that day.

While we would like to believe that we would be fully prepared in case of a violent attack upon us from right out of the blue many times that is not the case.]


http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/mental_preparation.htm

This massively complex cocktail of factors is collectively known as the adrenal stress response.

We change in a crisis -- and not always for the better. Our physical and mental acuity are greatly reduced and we are functioning in a very primitive and raw state.

Not only is functioning more difficult, but our perceptions are altered. That is to say our internal 'reality' may not be an accurate reflection of the external 'actuality.' Unfortunately, in this condition what we are going to be reacting to is our internal reality.

The adrenal response can easily create two totally different problems. One is that it renders you incapable of action. Two is it causes you to go berserk on someone ... neither is good.

[Hawk]

from the search warrant dated Nov. 13

Subscriber information, billing information, toll information regarding incoming and
outgoing calls, cell site information of the incoming and out going calls, and repoll
infonnation to enable investigators to identify the location ofthe cell site from where the
calls were made or received for the following Verizon Wireless cellular telephone
numbers all for the time period of October 1,2008 to the present.

The information being sought by your affiant from Verizon Wireless would enable him to determine the dates, times and duration oftelephone calls. The information will also enable your affiant to learn the approximate location, when, where, from where and to whom telephone calls were placed prior to and after the homicide of Vincent Romero and Timothy Romans by potential suspects and or witnesses. It will also enable your affiant to try and determine as to whether potential suspects and or witnesses have conspired with one another to either murder the victims or not give investigators the information they need to successfully conduct an investigation.

The warrant listed 10 cell phone numbers which included Tanya Romans and Tim Romans.

Wouldn't the call from Tim already be on his phone?? Seems like they were going to delve deeper into everyone who made a cell phone call that day. Also needing the records from Oct 1 through Nov. 13.

interesting.

Judge Roca wants to know who talked to who before and after the murders. Good for him.

[GentleBreeze]

there is also a factor of survival which is fright or flight response.

Since neither one of these victims did not flee and were killed very close to where they were shot it shows me the fright response took over.

[PensiveOne]

It's open just a tad in the Kpho news photos. Looks like centerfire ammo to me. If we had a down-loadable shot of the box and could zoom in, maybe we could better determine what's inside.
Anyone have a link?

If you are on a PC you can do an Alt/Print Screen (Print screen is on the upper right of my keyboard), then paste into something like MS Word. In Word you can double click on it and then increase the size of the picture. I am afraid it doesn't tell me much, though. I hadn't noticed before, that you could see through the box. That could explain why they didn't need to open it to know that .22s were in there, if that's what they are.

[GentleBreeze]

from the search warrant dated Nov. 13

Subscriber information, billing information, toll information regarding incoming and
outgoing calls, cell site information of the incoming and out going calls, and repoll
information to enable investigators to identify the location of the cell site from where the
calls were made or received for the following Verizon Wireless cellular telephone
numbers all for the time period of October 1,2008 to the present.

The information being sought by your affiant from Verizon Wireless would enable him to determine the dates, times and duration oftelephone calls. The information will also enable your affiant to learn the approximate location, when, where, from where and to whom telephone calls were placed prior to and after the homicide of Vincent Romero and Timothy Romans by potential suspects and or witnesses. It will also enable your affiant to try and determine as to whether potential suspects and or witnesses have conspired with one another to either murder the victims or not give investigators the information they need to successfully conduct an investigation.

The warrant listed 10 cell phone numbers which included Tanya Romans and Tim Romans.

Wouldn't the call from Tim already be on his phone?? Seems like they were going to delve deeper into everyone who made a cell phone call that day. Also needing the records from Oct 1 through Nov. 13.

interesting.

They will still need the recorded document records from Verizon. If this goes to trial, those records will be entered and most likely the Verizon rep will testify to their validity.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

We know that Mr. Brewer hasn't stopped his investigation.

Thats true. Judge Roca gave both the State and Defense permission to keep investigating even though they are at a standstill due to the competency issue.

[Hawk]

If you are on a PC you can do an Alt/Print Screen (Print screen is on the upper right of my keyboard), then paste into something like MS Word. In Word you can double click on it and then increase the size of the picture. I am afraid it doesn't tell me much, though. I hadn't noticed before, that you could see through the box. That could explain why they didn't need to open it to know that .22s were in there, if that's what they are.

Thanks. I was wrong the box isn't open at all. But it does look like some cenerfire cartridges are in there.

[PensiveOne]

Thanks. I was wrong the box isn't open at all. But it does look like some cenerfire cartridges are in there.

You are welcome:wink:

[PensiveOne]

could you post the link please?

Sure,
http://www.kpho.com/slideshow/news/18019101/detail.html

[Hawk]

why couldn't they have released the boy to his grandmother or other relative while they were still investigating? All they really had was a coerced, questionable confession from an 8 yo kid. Nothing had been proven yet and is still not proven.

If they'd been reasonable they wouldn't have been able to do the chest beating. But their decision has made them the laughing stock of the country (with the boy being sacrificed). I feel bad for the regular cops employed there.

[Hawk]

pardon me, what is a cenerfire cartridge?

A centerfire cartridge has a separate primer that ignites the propellant (gunpowder) than cause an explosion to force the bullet out of the chambered round and down the barrel. A rimfire doesn't have a separate (independent) primer so any sufficient strike (by a firing pin) to the bottom casing will cause the explosion.

So if you can see a small circular object embedded in the bottom center of a cartridge it's a centerfire.

I'm too old and blind to say for sure that the ammo in the .17 HMR box has primers. Can anyone else see?

[Hawk]

Since neither one of these victims did not flee and were killed very close to where they were shot it shows me the fright response took over.

Yes indeed. It's an awful thing. But it's real.

[bkwits]

A centerfire cartridge has a separate primer that ignites the propellant (gunpowder) than cause an explosion to force the bullet out of the chambered round and down the barrel. A rimfire doesn't have a separate (independent) primer so any sufficient strike (by a firing pin) to the bottom casing will cause the explosion.

So if you can see a small circular object embedded in the bottom center of a cartridge it's a centerfire.

I'm too old and blind to say for sure that the ammo in the .17 HMR box has primers. Can anyone else see?

Thanks for your clear concise answers, Hawk. Last week, I was pursuing this idea to see if bullets were missing. I tried to hook my laptop to my big screen TV, but was not successful. My teenage grandkids did it, why can't I? :blink:

[Hawk]

Thanks for your clear concise answers, Hawk. Last week, I was pursuing this idea to see if bullets were missing. I tried to hook my laptop to my big screen TV, but was not successful. My teenage grandkids did it, why can't I? :blink:

Because in some ways, mostly superficial, they are smarter than we are (or at least they like to think they are). Then again, maybe they're just more interested in how this high-tech stuff works.
Spend time with them while you can. You'll miss them when they're gone!
Sorry. Didn't intend to get philosophical.

[Hawk]

so were those .22 or .17??

.22s and .17s are both rimfire. I don't see either of them in this box. But I could very well be wrong.

[PensiveOne]

thank you

just curious. what is that head with what looks like sun glasses on top next to the ac in the photo of the side of the house?

I can't tell what that is.

[Jacobtk]

Good grief! The longest shot to Mr. Romans was about 20'. The shots to Mr. Romero less than 10'. These ain't exactly Wild Bill Hickock skill set requirements.

What report stated that?

[Hawk]

What report stated that?

The distance from the first blood drop to the front door was estimated by Sgt. Rodriguez to be 24' (first hearing, questioned by Mr. Brewer).

[Hawk]

so if that's the case, where did the boy get the ammo if he did the shootings?

From wherever the ammo was kept. I suspect he would have known.

[Jacobtk]

Where does it say that Romans tried to run away? There was a 24 ft. blood drop trail starting close to the truck, iirc and he died on the patio porch of the home. That is not attempting to runaway. An attempt to runaway from the shots being fired from the home toward him..... he would have been found away from the home, closer to his truck. So I fail to see the point you are trying to make.

My point, and apparently yours, is that he did not stand still. He moved, which would make grouped shots very difficult to do if the shooter had to reload after each shot.

These were not masterful shots by any stretch of the imagination imo. They were haphazard ones. A sharpshooter doesn't hit an arm right above the elbow or shoot into a forearm.

He would if the person he was shooting raised his arm to protect himself.

The shots that scored were the ones where the target was larger to hit and the head shots were done when they both were no longer able to resist the killers determination to murder them by shooting them in the head.

Not according to the autopsy report. According to the report VR was shot in the head from below, which is why his hard hat has a dent in the back. He was shot in the back after he lay across the stairs.

He wasnt some expert shooter and he didnt have to be.

I did not say that the shooter had to be an expert, only skilled enough to shoot a moving target while reloading a single-shot rifle. Anyone can learn to do that, but it will more than off and on practice over the course of 10 months. It also is not likely that a boy with no apparent issues with aggression or cruelty to others would be able to shoot two men that accurately.

[Jacobtk]

That site has been out there for nearly two months. It doesn't prove anything. You don't know how you would react in a similar situation. Not for sure.

One could argue that she was trying to get the shootings off her mind. However, it is odd that she should seem to be enjoying herself that much that soon after her husband was killed and her stepson accused of the acts. It looks suspicious and probably should be investigated.

[Good_Gawd]

Yes indeed. It's an awful thing. But it's real.
And what were the three things you said the other day that shooter needed to feel to do this?

[Hawk]

.
According to the report VR was shot in the head from below, which is why his hard hat has a dent in the back. He was shot in the back after he lay across the stairs.

How did you ascertain that the shot through the hardhat was from from below?

[Hawk]

One could argue that she was trying to get the shootings off her mind. However, it is odd that she should seem to be enjoying herself that much that soon after her husband was killed and her stepson accused of the acts. It looks suspicious and probably should be investigated.

Absolutely. She should, and has been, questioned. If not so much by LE, Mr. Brewers investigator is on the job.

[Jacobtk]

Also needing the records from Oct 1 through Nov. 13.

interesting.

Actually, that is just the way cell phone companies give out information. It is easier for them to pull information for a month than it is for a few days or a single day.

[Hawk]

And what were the three things you said the other day that shooter needed to feel to do this?

I think 'satisfaction' would sum up all feelings of the shooter.

[Jacobtk]

How did you ascertain that the shot through the hardhat was from from below?

The suggestion was given here (http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/Autopsy-St-Johns-murder-victims-shot-in-the-head/gsb18gJlwkizzVprKFwW0A.cspx):

In crime scene photos he is shown wearing a hard hat and safety goggles.

He may have a gunshot wound in his back but the report also indicates that “on the front of the hard hat there is a round defect.”

After reading the report Doctor Keen said that tells him a bullet went through the front of his hard hat placing a gunman in front of him.

[Good_Gawd]

Absolutely. She should, and has been, questioned. If not so much by LE, Mr. Brewers investigator is on the job.

Thank GAWD! :biggrin:

[Hawk]

The suggestion was given here (http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/Autopsy-St-Johns-murder-victims-shot-in-the-head/gsb18gJlwkizzVprKFwW0A.cspx):

In crime scene photos he is shown wearing a hard hat and safety goggles.

He may have a gunshot wound in his back but the report also indicates that “on the front of the hard hat there is a round defect.”

After reading the report Doctor Keen said that tells him a bullet went through the front of his hard hat placing a gunman in front of him.

Dr. Keen isn't a part of this case. He went on TV for publicity. Just as most expert witnesses do.
The bullet went through the hardhat from the front, and above, and instantly killed Mr. Romero (if he was still alive). The man's head was resting on the top landing. Angle would depend on where the shooter was standing. The closer the shooter was to the victim the greater the angle of trajectory. The physical height of the shooter is irrelevant.

[Hawk]

then where is that ammo listed in the evidence?? I would think LE would also search for that. If the boy obtained ammo, imo, surely there was more than 10 bullets. So, where did he get it??

Excellent question!

[Good_Gawd]

I think 'satisfaction' would sum up all feelings of the shooter.

You posted on 1/12:

Nerves, determination, guts, and revenge are the heart of this case.

[Hawk]

You posted on 1/12:

Nerves, determination, guts, and revenge are the heart of this case.

The sum of which is 'Satisfaction'. Somebody not only wanted these men dead. They wanted them tortured. Or else they were just having too much fun to stop.
Or, perhaps, they wanted to be sure neither of them jumped up in retaliation. Not understanding that was an impossibility. Who would lack that realization?

[GentleBreeze]

Not according to the autopsy report. According to the report VR was shot in the head from below, which is why his hard hat has a dent in the back. He was shot in the back after he lay across the stairs.

Would you please tell me where you are getting your autopsy report information from? As far as I have read, Vinnie was shot through the front of his hardhat, not in the back of it.:confused:

imoo

[FurthurBB]

I agree. This is the post I put up the other day that discusses how the person can react when they are threatened with a violent attack right out of the blue.

Also I think many are giving the two dead victims way too much credit on their supposedly abilities that day.

While we would like to believe that we would be fully prepared in case of a violent attack upon us from right out of the blue many times that is not the case.]


http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/mental_preparation.htm

This massively complex cocktail of factors is collectively known as the adrenal stress response.

We change in a crisis -- and not always for the better. Our physical and mental acuity are greatly reduced and we are functioning in a very primitive and raw state.

Not only is functioning more difficult, but our perceptions are altered. That is to say our internal 'reality' may not be an accurate reflection of the external 'actuality.' Unfortunately, in this condition what we are going to be reacting to is our internal reality.

The adrenal response can easily create two totally different problems. One is that it renders you incapable of action. Two is it causes you to go berserk on someone ... neither is good.


And as I posted before, an irrational reaction happens only about 1/3 of the time, and of those irrational reactions there are two possibilities, to over react (the most likely) or not react at all. So, it is very unlikely that 2 men on the same day in the same place would both have an irrational reaction and both of those irrational reactions were nonaction. IMO

[Hawk]

from Guinn's report:

The fourth round struck Romero in the back, near the center ofthe right shoulder blade. The round
traveled at a downward angle passing through the organs in the chest and coming to rest in the abdomen.
This round was recovered by the pathologist.

This tells me the shooter was at the top of the stairs or somewhere on the staircase inorder to shoot him in the back in order for the round to travel at a downward angle.

Regarding Roman from the report:

The fifth wound noted was a single entry wound from a single gunshot that struck Romans on the
back of the head, on the right side. This round fragmented inside the head. A sixth wound was observed in
Romans' head. This round was discharged at close range resulting in tearing ofthe skin at the entry wound, . and resulting in what was described as a "keyhole" wound.

This states at close range.

The second bullet wound struck Romans' in the chest. The bullet struck a marker that was clipped inside Romans' jacket, then entered his chest making a single hole to the right of center in his chest. A third bullet struck Romans' in the chest approximately 3-4 inches to the left of the second wound, resulting in a single entry wound. Both bullets were recovered from the abdomen.

The bullet must have been shot in a downward angle since the abdomen is below the chest.

A fourth round struck Romans' in the back of the head. This wound was a "crease" or a gouge across the back ofRomans' head, with no entry or exit wounds. It is possible that this round also made the hole in the security door. This bullet was not recovered.

My thinking is that he was shot from the left since the bullet is believed to have gone through the security door and he was found laying infront of the door and the door was open. Also, the hole in the security door was low so he may have been on the ground already. Perhaps the shooter was in the driveway shooting towards Tim.

and finally:

The fifth wound noted was a single entry wound from a single gunshot that struck Romans on the
back of the head, on the right side. This round fragmented inside the head. A sixth wound was observed in
Romans' head. This round was discharged at close range resulting in tearing of the skin at the entry wound, . and resulting in what was described as a "keyhole" wound.

This may shot came from his right, not the left so a different person perhaps shot him than the person who shot and grazed his head.

just some things I've been pondering.

It's impossible for us to know the angle of the head (chin facing left, or right, or straight down) in relation to the surface it's on. I wish we had access to the photos. We're 'dancing in the dark', so to speak on that.

[FurthurBB]

Since neither one of these victims did not flee and were killed very close to where they were shot it shows me the fright response took over.


It is not fright ... it is fight. IMO

[Hawk]

And as I posted before, an irrational reaction happens only about 1/3 of the time, and of those irrational reactions there are two possibilities, to over react (the most likely) or not react at all. So, it is very unlikely that 2 men on the same day in the same place would both have an irrational reaction and both of those irrational reactions were nonaction. IMO

Mr. Romero didn't have such an act. He had no options. He was boxed in and shot through the brain. There was no recourse for his body, or brain, but to instantly collapse.

Mr. Romans is a different situation entirely.

[FurthurBB]

Yes indeed. It's an awful thing. But it's real.

No it is not fright or flight, it is fight or flight. Good lord. IMO

[Hawk]

No it is not fright or flight, it is fight or flight. Good lord. IMO

I'm sorry. I missed your point. Fright will hinder you from flight. It'll also paralyze you from fight. Fear is our strongest motivator. We can't overcome it. We can only condition ourselves to it.
Whoever said that 'flight or fight' are a humans only options is wrong. Freezing up is very common.
The Lord is good.

[FurthurBB]

Mr. Romero didn't have such an act. He had no options. He was boxed in and shot through the brain. There was no recourse for his body, or brain, but to instantly collapse.

Mr. Romans is a different situation entirely.

Maybe not, but, I knew people who did incredible things to save others after they were fatally wounded and as soon as the rescue was over, they dropped dead. That is what adrenaline can do for you. I myself have been in several life or death situations when I was a liason to the WHO and never once was I stricken to innaction. Although I had seen that happen. It is not as common as over reacting and getting everyone killed or using too much force in a crime situation and getting charged with a crime yourself. IMO

[FurthurBB]

I'm sorry. I missed your point. Fright will hinder you from flight. It'll also paralyze you from fight. Fear is our strongest motivator. We can't overcome it. We can only condition ourselves to it.
Whoever said that 'flight or fight' are a humans only options is wrong. Freezing up is very common.

My point is the physical reaction is called the fight or flight response. It is a physical response that happens to all mammals when in a dangerous situation. It is also what causes panic attacks for some unknown reason. It shuts down your digestive, endocrine, and excretory systems, dialates your blood vessels and frees us more oxygen for your muscular system, it pumps tons of extra adrenaline into your system and causes you to lose hearing and perripheral vision. It is just driving me nuts that everyone is agreeing on the wrong thing. here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight-or-flight_response . IMO

[Hawk]

Maybe not, but, I knew people who did incredible things to save others after they were fatally wounded and as soon as the rescue was over, they dropped dead. That is what adrenaline can do for you. I myself have been in several life or death situations when I was a liason to the WHO and never once was I stricken to innaction. Although I had seen that happen. It is not as common as over reacting and getting everyone killed or using too much force in a crime situation and getting charged with a crime yourself. IMO

Congratulations on having total self control, not only from your reflex system but from your body as well. There are those, of course, who are able to preform unbelievable feats while suffering from serious injuries. Adrenaline flow is a positive thing for them. There are also those who suffer and die from the same effect.

Were you shot in the chest when you were in one of those several life or death situations?

[bkwits]

then where is that ammo listed in the evidence?? I would think LE would also search for that. If the boy obtained ammo, imo, surely there was more than 10 bullets. So, where did he get it??

Does this make the child's fingerprint on the ammo box meaningless as far as evidence against him?

[Hawk]

My point is the physical reaction is called the fight or flight response. It is a physical response that happens to all mammals when in a dangerous situation. It is also what causes panic attacks for some unknown reason. It shuts down your digestive, endocrine, and excretory systems, dialates your blood vessels and frees us more oxygen for your muscular system, it pumps tons of extra adrenaline into your system and causes you to lose hearing and perripheral vision. It is just driving me nuts that everyone is agreeing on the wrong thing. here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight-or-flight_response . IMO

I apologize for my stupid reaction to your comments. It was hateful. I get wrapped up in this thing and say stupid stuff from a singular perspective. That isn't what this board is about. I truly hope you were never shot.
I'm sorry. I respect your point of view.

[Hawk]

Does this make the child's fingerprint on the ammo box meaningless as far as evidence against him?

Wouldn't the boy's fingerprints be useless anywhere and on anything in his own home?

[Jacobtk]

Dr. Keen isn't a part of this case. He went on TV for publicity. Just as most expert witnesses do.
The bullet went through the hardhat from the front, and above, and instantly killed Mr. Romero (if he was still alive).

Where does it state that?

[bkwits]

Wouldn't the boy's fingerprints be useless anywhere and on anything in his own home?


Pretty much so, IMO. But that was publicized as significant along with the GSR.

[Hawk]

Does this make the child's fingerprint on the ammo box meaningless as far as evidence against him?

How could they use the boys fingerprints against him that were found anywhere in the house? He lives there.

We haven't gotten any response on the crack head thief scenario. Maybe we should work on it some more. I think it's plausible.

[GentleBreeze]

And as I posted before, an irrational reaction happens only about 1/3 of the time, and of those irrational reactions there are two possibilities, to over react (the most likely) or not react at all. So, it is very unlikely that 2 men on the same day in the same place would both have an irrational reaction and both of those irrational reactions were nonaction. IMO

That is your opinion. So be it. Everyone is entitled to one.

With a 33 percent chance of it happening there is nothing refuting that it didn't happen to both men and many of these situations do not include people being fired upon multiple times but other situations, as well.

However, IMO, it shows these men did not try to flee, so I think it is highly likely, when this all happened to each of them, their perceptions were dulled, slowed with seconds to react before they were hit again. They may have staggered a few feet still trying to remain upright on their feet but they were not in a flight posture imo but one of total confusion due to the violent attacks that came out of no where.

imoo

[Jacobtk]

Would you please tell me where you are getting your autopsy report information from? As far as I have read, Vinnie was shot through the front of his hardhat, not in the back of it.:confused:

imoo

That was an incorrect statement. My mistake.

[Hawk]

Where does it state that?

Sgt. Guinn's report.

[GentleBreeze]

How could they use the boys fingerprints against him that were found anywhere in the house? He lives there.

We haven't gotten any response on the crack head thief scenario. Maybe we should work on it some more. I think it's plausible.

I would think it might be the location where it was found and if it was a bloody fingerprint.

imo

[Hawk]

I would think it might be the location where it was found and if it was a bloody fingerprint.

imo

Blood would certainly make a difference. Is that why 'one casing looked different that the others' (Sgt Rodriguez, 1st Hearing)?

[GentleBreeze]

Blood would certainly make a difference. Is that why 'one casing looked different that the others' (Sgt Rodriguez, 1st Hearing)?

We will see.

He did made a point to say he never touched Romans and he only nudged his father's body with the toe of his shoe, according to him.

Also the blood found on the paper in the trashcan will also be very interesting if it belonged to one of the victims.

imoo

[Hawk]

We will see.

He did made a point to say he never touched Romans and he only nudged his father's body with the toe of his shoe, according to him.

Also the blood found on the paper in the trashcan will also be very interesting if it belonged to one of the victims.

imoo

A round could have been dropped near one of the victims, then picked up and used.

[Hawk]

So, no one bites on the crack-head thief scenario? Just a nibble?

[muska]

My point is the physical reaction is called the fight or flight response. It is a physical response that happens to all mammals when in a dangerous situation. It is also what causes panic attacks for some unknown reason. It shuts down your digestive, endocrine, and excretory systems, dialates your blood vessels and frees us more oxygen for your muscular system, it pumps tons of extra adrenaline into your system and causes you to lose hearing and perripheral vision. It is just driving me nuts that everyone is agreeing on the wrong thing. here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight-or-flight_response . IMO

Thanks for trying to explain....I appreciate your effort. I don't know a lot about biology but I do remember the fight or flight reaction from basic bio and I know there's no fright in there. Maybe everyone will take a minute to read the article. Thanks again!

[GentleBreeze]

A round could have been dropped near one of the victims, then picked up and used.

Ah, that is true. That sure could have happened.

imoo

[Crispy]

So, no one bites on the crack-head thief scenario? Just a nibble?

I can see crack head, just not crack head thief. We need more info!!

[GentleBreeze]

Thanks for trying to explain....I appreciate your effort. I don't know a lot about biology but I do remember the fight or flight reaction from basic bio and I know there's no fright in there. Maybe everyone will take a minute to read the article. Thanks again!

But I think everyone is also aware, that some people who are facing grave danger, without warning, can also freeze and not react much at all.

imoo

[Hawk]

I can see crack head, just not crack head thief. We need more info!!

This post betwteen, GMR33 and myself, from last night was tongue in cheek, but after looking at it and doing some revisions, it could be right.

...you're in the house searching for money or drugs and 2 men pull up in a truck. You know they live there. You've already looked under the bed in the master bedroom and you saw four rifle cases there. You pull a case out and a gun from it. It happens to be a tiny .22 kids rifle. You leave a powerful 30-06, a deadly 22-250, and a big 7mm-08 under the bed. Okay, no time to be choosy. You have the .22 in your hands. It's a single shot so now you have to find ammo. You hear the front door open and a man is coming up the stairs. Luckily you just happen find a box of .22s among the scattered clothes and general mess and put some of the cartridges in your pocket. You load one shot into the rifle, but you don't know how to cock it. You fumble around a bit then figure it out and step out through the bedroom door and shoot the man just as he approaches. You reload and shoot him again. He's down and bleeding. Brain jelly on the wall. You step over him and down the stairs reloading as you go. As you step down to the first floor you see the back door is only 15' away. The man in the truck is still there talking on a cell phone. You consider going out the back door but decide 'what the hell' I might just as well shoot that other guy too. So you walk to the front door, and imitating a child's voice, you call his name, because you know his name. The man starts walking toward the house and you shoot him til you feel better. You then go back upstairs to shot the first guy some more, and do. Then you walk back down to the 1st floor where you lay the little gun on a dog cage. Inside the cage is a boxer puppy barking madly. You then stride outside where a small white car has been waiting and drive away, grateful that the dead men hadn't noticed the car.
Then you remember that you didn't steal anything.

[muska]

But I think everyone is also aware, that some people who are facing grave danger, without warning, can also freeze and not react much at all.

imoo

Since FurtherBB is the biologist and would be far more aware of this type thing than me, I'll go with her response and she said it's relatively unusual for someone to freeze....I don't see that happening to each man. The reaction is called "fight or flight" for a reason...those are the common reactions.

[Hawk]

Since FurtherBB is the biologist and would be far more aware of this type thing than me, I'll go with her response and she said it's relatively unusual for someone to freeze....I don't see that happening to each man. The reaction is called "fight or flight" for a reason...those are the common reactions.

In all due respect to biologist, I've seen men 'wound freeze', or 'Shock freeze' in actual war combat. It is very real. And not uncommon. I don't have a scientific reason for it. I doubt the dead men would have either. I didn't see any biologist out there trying to talk them out of it. College classes don't teach you everything.

[GentleBreeze]

Since FurtherBB is the biologist and would be far more aware of this type thing than me, I'll go with her response and she said it's relatively unusual for someone to freeze....I don't see that happening to each man. The reaction is called "fight or flight" for a reason...those are the common reactions.


ok.

imo

[Good_Gawd]

In all due respect to biologist, I've seen men 'wound freeze', or 'Shock freeze' in actual war combat. It is very real. And not uncommon. I don't have a scientific reason for it. I doubt the dead men would have either. I didn't see any biologist out there trying to talk them out of it. College classes don't teach you everything.

This isn't war here. It's a murder Totally different senerio.

[bkwits]

I would think it might be the location where it was found and if it was a bloody fingerprint.

imo

I only heard about the boy's fingerprint on the ammo box. Do you know of any bloody fingerprints found?

[Hawk]

This isn't war here. Totally different senerio.

Getting shot is getting shot. On your street, in a jungle, in the dessert, or at your house. Makes no difference. You respond the same. The only difference is you might be in a place where you don't expect it. Even then, the results are the same. It ain't like you can control your reactions.

[Good_Gawd]

I can see crack head, just not crack head thief. We need more info!!

Only a few people I can think of that didn't need to rob the guys or the house. They just needed to set up the boy. imo

[GentleBreeze]

I only heard about the boy's fingerprint on the ammo box. Do you know of any bloody fingerprints found?

No. I was just conversing with Hawk when he was talking about the possibility of the boy's fingerprints being found inside the home.

[Crispy]

Only a few people I can think of that didn't need to rob the guys or the house. They just needed to set up the boy. imo


My point on a robbery would be, why wait until it was time for them to come home? Why not do it during the day when they were all at work?

[Good_Gawd]

Getting shot is getting shot. On your street, in a jungle, in the dessert, or at your house. Makes no difference. You respond the same. The only difference is you might be in a place where you don't expect it. Even then, the results are the same.
I don 't agree. People get shot, run and /or grab a gun and shoot back all the time. They don't stand there and take it.
Being at war is a different mindset. You are on constant guard.

[GentleBreeze]

Getting shot is getting shot. On your street, in a jungle, in the dessert, or at your house. Makes no difference. You respond the same. The only difference is you might be in a place where you don't expect it. Even then, the results are the same. It ain't like you can control your reactions.

I totally agree. Romero and Romans were in the worst war they could have ever imagined.

imo

[muska]

Getting shot is getting shot. On your street, in a jungle, in the dessert, or at your house. Makes no difference. You respond the same. The only difference is you might be in a place where you don't expect it. Even then, the results are the same. It ain't like you can control your reactions.

I'm only saying that I don't think most people would freeze. I don't think most soldiers would freeze......anyone might in any given certain situation, it's just not the most usual reaction.

[Hawk]

My point on a robbery would be, why wait until it was time for them to come home? Why not do it during the day when they were all at work?

A crack-head may not have considered the consequences.
It's a corner lot. Prime pickings for a bone-head thief. Broad daylight. Less suspicion from neighbors should you be seen. Most folks at work. Coming home soon. Stick and move. Not enough time to take wallets from the victims. Maybe got something from Mr. Romans pocket.

[Hawk]

I'm only saying that I don't think most people would freeze. I don't think most soldiers would freeze......anyone might in any given certain situation, it's just not the most usual reaction.

Okay. These things will be resolved by the 'shooting reenactment expert' Mr. Brewer has hired. None of this has anything to do with prime suspects. Who are they?

[Good_Gawd]

I totally agree. Romero and Romans were in the worst war they could have ever imagined.

imo

But imo, it wasn't against an 8 yr old!

[Hawk]

I'm only saying that I don't think most people would freeze. I don't think most soldiers would freeze......anyone might in any given certain situation, it's just not the most usual reaction.

I guess you could ask your Doctor, perhaps he/she would tell you that it depends on where you are hit and the severity of the wound.

[Crispy]

A crack-head may not have considered the consequences.
It's a corner lot. Prime pickings for a bone-head thief. Broad daylight. Less suspicion from neighbors should you be seen. Most folks at work. Coming home soon. Stick and move. Not enough time to take wallets from the victims. Maybe got something from Mr. Romans pocket.

Well, maybe so on taking something from his pocket. That could be a good point. Maybe why his cigs and lighter were laying on the porch?

(Me personally, even though I'm not a crack head, if I'm gonna go to all the trouble of shooting somebody and taking something from their pockets, I'm gonna grab the wallet too.)

[Good_Gawd]

My point on a robbery would be, why wait until it was time for them to come home? Why not do it during the day when they were all at work?

And at school. It's not like robbers have a full time job.

[Hawk]

I totally agree. Romero and Romans were in the worst war they could have ever imagined.

imo

Yes. And instantainiously.

[Good_Gawd]

Yes. And instantainiously.

Then it wasn't a chipmunk. :lol:

Start over...

[Hawk]

Then it wasn't a chipmunk. :lol:

Start over...

The threat was instant. Not death.

[Hawk]

Well, maybe so on taking something from his pocket. That could be a good point. Maybe why his cigs and lighter were laying on the porch?

(Me personally, even though I'm not a crack head, if I'm gonna go to all the trouble of shooting somebody and taking something from their pockets, I'm gonna grab the wallet too.)

There could have been a disruption. A passing vehicle, a far off sound, anything to break concentration and bring fear. Drugs are the enemy of logical thought.

[Crispy]

There could have been a disruption. A passing vehicle, a far off sound, anything to break concentration and bring fear.

Noticing a boy walking down the street?

[Details]

Tim wasn't in wound shock, apparently - unless you say that he could get shot once, react to that shot by running towards the gunfire, leaving that blood trail, then get shot again, happen to respond to this shot to the chest not by running, not by falling to the ground, not by clutching his chest, not by attacking his assailant - but by standing still the entire time (quite a long time when you've just been shot in the chest) as he watches his killer reload.


It just doesn't fit. Even a very fast reload gives him several seconds to do something that would not fit the evidence - clutch his chest, fall down, duck, etc.

[GentleBreeze]

Tim wasn't in wound shock, apparently - unless you say that he could get shot once, react to that shot by running towards the gunfire, leaving that blood trail, then get shot again, happen to respond to this shot to the chest not by running, not by falling to the ground, not by clutching his chest, not by attacking his assailant - but by standing still the entire time (quite a long time when you've just been shot in the chest) as he watches his killer reload.


It just doesn't fit. Even a very fast reload gives him several seconds to do something that would not fit the evidence - clutch his chest, fall down, duck, etc.

He had 24 feet to decide how to save his life. He didn't figure it out and he died on the porch.

[Hawk]

Noticing a boy walking down the street?

I hope so!

[bkwits]

My point on a robbery would be, why wait until it was time for them to come home? Why not do it during the day when they were all at work?


We are sitting here, trying to think this through rationally. That is not what most criminals do, IMO. There are thousands, thousands of crimes committed that make no sense at all. I'm sure you've read about them or seen them on TV. It is my speculation that the Romeros left their front door unlocked. No one ever mentions putting a key in the door or having a key. The child did mention specifically that the back door was locked so he came in the front. Some thiefs just go around looking for unlocked doors in the daytime. IMO, almost everyone locks their doors at night.

The reason the thief, if there was one, did not take the cash from the men is that he panicked when the men came home. IMO. These guys don't think straight or they wouldn't be out robbing houses like these.

[Hawk]

We are sitting here, trying to think this through rationally. That is not what most criminals do, IMO. There are thousands, thousands of crimes committed that make no sense at all. I'm sure you've read about them or seen them on TV. It is my speculation that the Romeros left their front door unlocked. No one ever mentions putting a key in the door or having a key. The child did mention specifically that the back door was locked so he came in the front. Some thiefs just go around looking for unlocked doors in the daytime. IMO, almost everyone locks their doors at night.

The reason the thief, if there was one, did not take the cash from the men is that he panicked when the men came home. IMO. These guys don't think straight or they wouldn't be out robbing houses like these.

Right. We all agree this is a strange case. Why not the crack-head thief?

[bkwits]

He had 24 feet to decide how to save his life. He didn't figure it out and he died on the porch.

It makes no sense at all for someone like Tim who was born and raised in the west and is no stranger to guns and rowdy behavior (note bullet hole in his truck) to run towards gunfire. IMO someone was firing behind or more likely to one side of him.

[Good_Gawd]

Tim wasn't in wound shock, apparently - unless you say that he could get shot once, react to that shot by running towards the gunfire, leaving that blood trail, then get shot again, happen to respond to this shot to the chest not by running, not by falling to the ground, not by clutching his chest, not by attacking his assailant - but by standing still the entire time (quite a long time when you've just been shot in the chest) as he watches his killer reload.


It just doesn't fit. Even a very fast reload gives him several seconds to do something that would not fit the evidence - clutch his chest, fall down, duck, etc.

Great Post!!!!!!!

[Good_Gawd]

It makes no sense at all for someone like Tim who was born and raised in the west and is no stranger to guns and rowdy behavior (note bullet hole in his truck) to run towards gunfire. IMO someone was firing behind or more likely to one side of him.

Great Post!!!!!!!

[Good_Gawd]

The threat was instant. Not death.

Exactly. So the Chipmunk is OUT! To walk 20' before a reload, and shot fired again would be simple for a man a big as Tim to grab it from an 8 yr old!!

[bkwits]

Didn't Tim have a gun in his truck? If he noticed something or heard something...why didn't he take his gun?

I'm still trying to figure out why Nellie the pup was so quiet during all the gun shots.

In or out...I would think she'd be going nuts.

What makes you think she was quiet?

[GentleBreeze]

It makes no sense at all for someone like Tim who was born and raised in the west and is no stranger to guns and rowdy behavior (note bullet hole in his truck) to run towards gunfire. IMO someone was firing behind or more likely to one side of him.

Firing behind him? Then instead of chest shots he would have been shot in the back.

Where he lives or how tough he thought he may have been, has nothing to do with it. I can almost assure you he had never been a gun battle and certainly not one where he had no weapon. Even cops who are trained to shoot have frozen in place.

imo

[bkwits]

yes. he could very well have moved it from somewhere else on the table. or he could have bumped into the table (who knows when, perhaps a month prior to the killings) and the box fell on the floor (look at where the box is on the photo) and the boy picked it up to put it back up on the table. That house is a mess. Anything could have happened to have his prints on the box.

Where is the supply of his ammo if that box does not contain all .22's??

Another think that photo tells me is that it is an old box. It also show some type of ammo not neatly placed in an organized manner. I shows some type of ammo that would make it take a second or two longer for someone to grab a bullet and then load. They would fumble with bullets, they are turned every which way. Upside down, sideways. Even if the boy just grabed a handful, he would still have to fumble with the ammo trying to load, empty, reload. imo

From the markings that some have seen on the bullets (I think I can see it too), it is not likely the ammo for the chipmunk, if I understand Hawk correctly.

[Hawk]

Exactly. So the Chipmunk is OUT! To walk 20' before a reload, and shot fired again would be simple for a man a big as Tim to grab it from an 8 yr old!!

No it isn't. Not at all.

[PensiveOne]

My point on a robbery would be, why wait until it was time for them to come home? Why not do it during the day when they were all at work?

Maybe because they weren't home from high school, yet?

[PensiveOne]

Only a few people I can think of that didn't need to rob the guys or the house. They just needed to set up the boy. imo

Like TR's wife!

[PensiveOne]

I'm only saying that I don't think most people would freeze. I don't think most soldiers would freeze......anyone might in any given certain situation, it's just not the most usual reaction.
And, TR didn't freeze after the first shot, did he?

[bkwits]

Firing behind him? Then instead of chest shots he would have been shot in the back.

Where he lives or how tough he thought he may have been, has nothing to do with it. I can almost assure you he had never been a gun battle and certainly not one where he had no weapon. Even cops who are trained to shoot have frozen in place.

imo


Yes, except for the shot through the screen door which was from behind him.

He didn't FREEZE in place. He ran or moved. The natural instinct is to run or seek cover. If I know that most people who are hunters and used to gun would drop to the ground or run from the gunfire. In the school shootings even the kids run or drop to the floor.

I think it is naive to believe that Tim would freeze. Are you sure you've been raised around guns?

[PensiveOne]

Right. We all agree this is a strange case. Why not the crack-head thief?

I'm good with the crack head thief:thumbup:

[bkwits]

Mrs. Romans heard a child's voice calling for Tim but never mentioned hearing a dog barking in the background.

Maybe Tim told her that the boy was calling him, but I don't believe that she could have heard the child's voice through the cell phone, with the child in the house (supposedly) and Tim in the truck. Now on of the reports that I read said Tim said to her there was some commotion in the house and he had to go. That sounds more reasonable. IMO

[bkwits]

because noone heard her. someone says they heard 3 pops about 5:05pm. how could they hear 3 pops but not a dog barking? i would think the dog would be barking her head off.

What could that mean? That she wasn't home?

[Hawk]

I'm good with the crack head thief:thumbup:

Thank you!! Maybe we can move on to workable scenarios and get away from all this useless repetitive rhetoric.

Just my hope.

[bkwits]

I'm good with the crack head thief:thumbup:

I could go with that, but I still think revenge.

[Hawk]

I could go with that, but I still think revenge.

Another good possibility. Revenge killings. Have any details on how that could have been done?

[muska]

We are sitting here, trying to think this through rationally. That is not what most criminals do, IMO. There are thousands, thousands of crimes committed that make no sense at all. I'm sure you've read about them or seen them on TV. It is my speculation that the Romeros left their front door unlocked. No one ever mentions putting a key in the door or having a key. The child did mention specifically that the back door was locked so he came in the front. Some thiefs just go around looking for unlocked doors in the daytime. IMO, almost everyone locks their doors at night.

The reason the thief, if there was one, did not take the cash from the men is that he panicked when the men came home. IMO. These guys don't think straight or they wouldn't be out robbing houses like these.

This post makes a lot of sense to me. If we ever find out exactly what happened in the Romero house that day, we may all be surprised!

[bkwits]

Thank you!! Maybe we can move on to workable scenarios and get away from all this useless repetitive rhetoric.

Just my hope.

I'm ready. I'm tired of talking about the dog.

Let's start a new thread for this. This one will get too long by tonight.

[PensiveOne]

Yes, except for the shot through the screen door which was from behind him.

He didn't FREEZE in place. He ran or moved. The natural instinct is to run or seek cover. If I know that most people who are hunters and used to gun would drop to the ground or run from the gunfire. In the school shootings even the kids run or drop to the floor.

I think it is naive to believe that Tim would freeze. Are you sure you've been raised around guns?

That's why I wonder if there were two shooters. One forcing him towards the door, and then he is surprised by another shooter on the porch.

[muska]

That's why I wonder if there were two shooters. One forcing him towards the door, and then he is surprised by another shooter on the porch.

Sounds like it could make sense.......possibly a lot of sense!

[GentleBreeze]

Yes, except for the shot through the screen door which was from behind him.

He didn't FREEZE in place. He ran or moved. The natural instinct is to run or seek cover. If I know that most people who are hunters and used to gun would drop to the ground or run from the gunfire. In the school shootings even the kids run or drop to the floor.

I think it is naive to believe that Tim would freeze. Are you sure you've been raised around guns?

I think he was totally confused. I don't think he saw the shooter or where he was, while he was shooting at him. We are only talking about 24 feet to decide. 24 feet and then in seconds he is hit again.

Maybe he was trying to run across the yard to the left side of the house in the front so he would be up against the wall of the house and not in the killer's view.

Please don't try to be coy, bkwts. Yes. I was raised around guns but I have never been in a position where I was being fired upon or anyone else I know, for that matter. If I had though and only had 24 feet to decide what to do, I would most likely be as dead as Romans is. If a person hits the ground then they are even more vulnerable. Then the victim is down and all the person has to do, that has the weapon, is walk closer and shoot.

His body may not have froze but imo his mind was very delayed due to the very stressful attack of being shot at multiple times.

But God forbid, if he was like others who have gone through a hail of bullets, trying to help someone, they thought was in dire need. If, it was this boy that truly coaxed him to his death under the pretense he needed help is just too heartbreaking to even think about.

imoo

[bkwits]

I started a new thread. Bring your posts over.

[muska]

is there or has there been a test conducted to determine if someone could hear a child's voice in that manner? If someone can hear someone else in the back ground the test should also demonstrate how far the person had to be before they were not audibale. Sometimes if someone is talking to me on my cell and they are riding with someone or in the same room with someone, the other person can say something and I can barely hear them, can't make out what they say either. and that's when they are with the person I'm talking to. needs to be a test done.

I don't think she could possibly hear the boy's voice clearly and if she wants to insist that she did, I don't think she can prove it. If the interview/"confession" had not been released the police might have been able to try some type of voice witness identification, but everyone who has followed this case is now able to identify the child's voice. It will mean nothing even if Tanya can pick the boy's voice out.

[PensiveOne]

is there or has there been a test conducted to determine if someone could hear a child's voice in that manner? If someone can hear someone else in the back ground the test should also demonstrate how far the person had to be before they were not audibale. Sometimes if someone is talking to me on my cell and they are riding with someone or in the same room with someone, the other person can say something and I can barely hear them, can't make out what they say either. and that's when they are with the person I'm talking to. needs to be a test done.

You know the other day I was talking to my son while he was on his cell phone. He had to go out to his car to get something and smoke a cigarette. I heard kids in the background and I said, "who's that?" It was my grandaughter, whom I know very well, but I couldn't tell for sure. Also, he turned his radio on immediately. It made me think of this case. I wonder if Tim had his radio on and if he did how could she hear the child at all?

[Jacobtk]

No it isn't. Not at all.

Technically it would unless we are to assume the boy (if he was the shooter) was completely unmoved by Romans heading towards him. Twenty feet is only a handful of steps for a grown man. He could have taken the gun (if it was the boy) or at least grabbed. He certainly could have closed the gap in the 3 to 4 seconds it would take to reload the rifle.

[FurthurBB]

In all due respect to biologist, I've seen men 'wound freeze', or 'Shock freeze' in actual war combat. It is very real. And not uncommon. I don't have a scientific reason for it. I doubt the dead men would have either. I didn't see any biologist out there trying to talk them out of it. College classes don't teach you everything.


Granted college classes don't teach you everything, but, I have also been to almost every horrendous war torn country on earth and seen battles that most US soldiers would be shocked by. Machetees can be a horrible horrible thing. I know that some people do freeze, I have seen it, but, it is not the most common reaction. IMO

[FurthurBB]

A crack-head may not have considered the consequences.
It's a corner lot. Prime pickings for a bone-head thief. Broad daylight. Less suspicion from neighbors should you be seen. Most folks at work. Coming home soon. Stick and move. Not enough time to take wallets from the victims. Maybe got something from Mr. Romans pocket.


Well, they did say that there was a serious problem with meth in this area. Meth is a lot worse than crack in a lot of ways. It lasts forever, causes hallucinations, and has a more powerful epinephrine reaction. IMO

[Hawk]

Can we eliminate any suspects? Who else should be on the list?

.........Romero
Leroy Romero
Liz Castillo
Tiffany Devall Romero
Tanya Romans
A random crack-head thief
A hitman
Two hitman (drug dealers)
Mexican gang members
Girlfriend
Girlfriends husband, brother, father, boyfriend, etc......
Navajo vs Apache
Disgruntled fellow employee
A boss who would rather kill them than fire them
St. Johns PD (they've been accused of everything else. Why not)
Mr. Romans daughters
Eryn Bloomfield
Ms. Bloomfield's mother
Ms. Bloomfield's father
Ms. Bloomfield's brother (if she has one)
Ms. Bloomfield's daughter
The pizza man
The butler
The maid
etc, etc,

[FurthurBB]

is there or has there been a test conducted to determine if someone could hear a child's voice in that manner? If someone can hear someone else in the back ground the test should also demonstrate how far the person had to be before they were not audibale. Sometimes if someone is talking to me on my cell and they are riding with someone or in the same room with someone, the other person can say something and I can barely hear them, can't make out what they say either. and that's when they are with the person I'm talking to. needs to be a test done.

Yes, I would like to see this too because I often talk to my best friend for too long and my husband or children will start talking to me and even though she knows them all well she always says, "Who was that?" IMO

[Hawk]

Technically it would unless we are to assume the boy (if he was the shooter) was completely unmoved by Romans heading towards him. Twenty feet is only a handful of steps for a grown man. He could have taken the gun (if it was the boy) or at least grabbed. He certainly could have closed the gap in the 3 to 4 seconds it would take to reload the rifle.

That's what I thought too,....at first.

[Hawk]

You know the other day I was talking to my son while he was on his cell phone. He had to go out to his car to get something and smoke a cigarette. I heard kids in the background and I said, "who's that?" It was my grandaughter, whom I know very well, but I couldn't tell for sure. Also, he turned his radio on immediately. It made me think of this case. I wonder if Tim had his radio on and if he did how could she hear the child at all?

Could have had the radio on and that loud 3/4 ton Dodge truck running. He was sitting there waiting for Mr. Romero to do whatever Mr. Romero had to do inside the house, and return so they could go help a friend with some handy work. It was suppose to be a brief stopover.

[Hawk]

that is a good question. if she was out running around in the neighborhood, someone may have seen her. or she may have been in the white car and the folks in the white car drove off and let her out later. didn't the boy say she was in her cage?

He let her out and she was still loose when Tiffany came home. She put her in the jeep.