1-15 - 1/17

[GentleBreeze]

How can anyone find anything now? The scene of the crime has been cleaned/compromised and the list of suspects/persons of interest never existed from what I have read.

That was just primary interviews like in any investigation that is unfolding. The motions have stated more interviews and re-interviews have been done and that has been turned over in discovery to the defense.

From the evidence that was collected. It will either point toward this boy or away. Since he is still held it seems none of it is exonerating or the defense would be screaming that to the roof tops to Judge Roca.

imoo

[Hawk]

Wow. These comments are pretty heated for a mid-day discussion.
Good job all the way around.

[JD1974]

I recieved an email back from Mr. Woods. He has not seen the fax, so is the fax just a rumor?

I am really curious about more testing on the gun, usually the side that asks for more testing is the one the tests went against. JMO

[PensiveOne]

I don't know if they could shoot besides Tiffany. But this was a rage killing. A hitman would have shot 4 shots total. 1 to the heart and one to the head of each man. imo

Tiffany and Leroy were the only people who knew exactly when the men would be home.

How did Leroy know? Tiffany's dad knew. Leroy is VR's dad.

[bkwits]

It's a gun made for a child. It's easy to load and shoot. It's really not even debatable, but ask, if it makes ya feel better:wink:

Yep, it makes me feel better to ask someone that I have known for 35 years, and who is a member of a passionate hunting and shooting family, members of gun clubs, etc. I would take her word rather than ONE anonymoust poster, who seems to have an agenda.

I'll let you know what she says. You might learn something. IMO

[Hawk]

A .22 rifle has no noticeable recoil. Even a short one.


http://www.accuratereloading.com/recoil.html

[Perplexed1]

She would surely know about the rift at the bar so if she was going to kill them why not do it one night when they are coming out of the bar?

imoo

Crimes of passion happen in the heat of the moment...or anger

[Jacobtk]

Jacobtk: Lands and grooves from the rifling are not the miroscopic markings that can identify a fired bullet with a particular gun. It is like picking up a pencil and seeing if it has eight sides or twelve. Yeah I know pencils have six sides but like that.

I see. Well, I suppose it makes it all the more weird that they claim it is the boy's gun but nowhere in the police reports do they mention any officer explaining how they determined this.

Earlier I said that the Hornady round would not fit in the Chipmunk rifle's chamber. I might have been wrong. The Hornady case is skinnier, it would not work well, it might expode the case, the bullet might just drop out of the barrel. All the propellant would leak around the bullet as it went down the barrel. I just don't know.

I have heard that a .17 caliber round would not work properly in the Chipmunk rifle as well. That they found a .22 caliber round in the boy's rifle would undermine that point as well. So unless the bullets in the box are .22s, one must wonder where the rounds came from.

[dgfred]

You don't know that - we've got no video, and no way to know how many shots were fired into who, in what order. It's all just an assumption. If indeed you are neutral, and would love to find a reason to think the boy innocent, it shouldn't be hard to consider the alternate orders in which the men might have been shot that fit the Mossberg as well as the Chipmunk. Including the very reasonable idea that Tim was running away from gunfire rather than to it after he was shot the first time.

I'm still not happy with that second casing - it seems to be listed weird, no photo - doesn't fit well. I consider it as a quantum casing - might be there, might not.


Plus couldn't casings be kicked or carried from one spot to another?

[Jacobtk]

Did the cops ever check for tire prints that didn't match there vehicles or footprints that wouldn't match theres?

No, they did not. It was not included in any of their reports. In fact, all they did was question a few people that worked with the two men. They did not ask to see anyone's car or attempt to look for tire tracks or anything of that nature. Even during the second questioning of the boy they failed to ask for more details about the car.

[muska]

Crimes of passion happen in the heat of the moment...or anger

My thought exactly.....whoever did this may have had a motive none of us would understand.....just snapped. The motive that some attribute to the boy is weak.....there are plenty of adults who could have had what they considered legitimate motives and one of them just reached his/her tipping point.

Or VR and TR could have surprised someone in the house. The door, it seems, was left open. This certainly does happen.

[JD1974]

This case gets stranger by the day. The gag order that no one follows lol The box of shells, the confession, not questioning anyone else (it seems), the fax, the gun, the blood outside, the missing bullet, the cell phone call to/from TR, TR wife lawyering up and talking about civil cases, the proposal to another woman from TR, my brain is already hurting trying to remember all of this stuff.

What was going on in that house?? What is going on in that county???

I feel like I am watching a movie and yelling at the screen, go look at who had the most to gain!

[dgfred]

Yes...but only 9 bullets

You mean they haven't found it? Now if it is not in the house, not in the victims, not in the boy, not to outside (wouldn't they still be able to find it?) how could the boy be a suspect??? That bullet went somewhere.

[Jacobtk]

Everyday children go to school after being severely abused. Physically as well as sexually and their teachers don't notice. More often than not...no one does.

Well, technically they do. When children are abused they always show signs of it. Very few kids are capable of behaving as if nothing happened. Usually their grades are affected, their ability to concentrate, their behavior changes towards the teachers and other students.A child who was once outgoing will become withdrawn. A child who was once quiet might become overly submissive. These changes always happen. People always notice them. They simply turn a blind eye to them because they do not want to be involved.

I ran into a former teacher a few years ago and told her about my situation. She always assumed something happened in my home, but she never reported it because I could have just been a "quiet kid."

[JD1974]

They have not found the 10th bullet, it doesn't look like they are looking for it either...

[Perplexed1]

Yep, it makes me feel better to ask someone that I have known for 35 years, and who is a member of a passionate hunting and shooting family, members of gun clubs, etc. I would take her word rather than ONE anonymoust poster, who seems to have an agenda.

I'll let you know what she says. You might learn something. IMO

There are those that love the thrill of an argument:closedeyes:

[JD1974]

OMG can you imagine someone opening that box and it having rocks in it?

[Good_Gawd]

I agree. Tim was a witness and needed to be eliminated

The boy had slim to no experience with the gun. ChildsVOICE told us that last night. Now you are saying he knows how to eliminate a witness too. GMAB!

[muska]

I just noticed that Tim's .45 was found in the center console of his truck. That would make it fairly easy for him to get it if he needed to. I'm wondering if he was in fact sitting in his truck smoking or if he may have been walking around outside. VR may have left the truck door open because VR was coming back since they were going somewhere.

Maybe there were no bullets in that weapon. One of TRs coworkers, the one that the boss said was closest to these men, said TR kept another weapon just behind his seat. Maybe he took that weapon with him and it was taken from the scene by the shooter. Maybe TR was already out of the truck and could not get to his gun.

There's really no way to know what happened, but there are so many possibilities. IMO

[Good_Gawd]

OMG can you imagine someone opening that box and it having rocks in it?

Last night was a hoot :lol::lol::lol:

[JD1974]

This case is really bothering me because I have children. I teach them to obey the law, so what do I tell them now...I have seen way too many false confessions by kids (not just here). Do I tell them to trust the police unless something happens to me? We tell them to run to the police when something bad happens, call 911, who do they call when the police turn on them?

[Hawk]

Perhaps there was more to the story. Maybe LeRoy was protecting the kid?

I think it is interesting that LeRoy did NOT want them speaking with the kid at first and then later seemed to turn his back on him. Maybe he figures the boy will get off?

I know I'm just streaming consciousness here, but there are so many possibilities and many of them seem far less farfetched than an 8 year old doing it.

IMO

A man killing his own son and another man then blaming it on his grandson is quite a stretch, isn't it?

[muska]

This case gets stranger by the day. The gag order that no one follows lol The box of shells, the confession, not questioning anyone else (it seems), the fax, the gun, the blood outside, the missing bullet, the cell phone call to/from TR, TR wife lawyering up and talking about civil cases, the proposal to another woman from TR, my brain is already hurting trying to remember all of this stuff.

What was going on in that house?? What is going on in that county???

I feel like I am watching a movie and yelling at the screen, go look at who had the most to gain!

I get mad at the crime dramas on television because they always do such dumb things so they can finish the show in one hour. This case has been just about like that.

[Jacobtk]

my point is that children that young do not hold a grudge that long to the point of the anger sitting to the point of this type of murder.

That is not true. Many children can and do hold grunges long enough to want to harm the person they are angry with. The difference is that children generally do not plan these sort of things at that age and when they do their plans are usually not very well thought out.

[PensiveOne]

didn't the boy say that sometimes Leroy brought groceries over for Tiffany? Could Tiffany and Leroy have been having an affair?

He said his grandpa brought groceries sometimes. I assumed he meant Leroy, but he could have been talking about Tiffany's dad. So Leroy probably knew what time they usually got home. But Tiffany's dad had talked to him on the phone sometime between 4:40 and 4:45 according to Tiffany, it was about 15 minutes after she had talked to VR at 4:27. So her dad knew when he was getting home that night.
Tiffany and Leroy having an affair, who knows...I hadn't heard that anywhere.

[JD1974]

I think my kids remember everything and I mean that literally. They are always saying, Mom remember when this happened etc. The remind me when one of them is supposed to be grounded haha Holding a grudge, I don't know, depends on the child imo.

[Jacobtk]

If Judge Roca knew he had been wrongfully charged the case would have been dismissed.

No, he would not. The absence of evidence does not mean the absence of guilt. Plenty of cases go to trial with absolutely nothing putting the person at the scene of the crime. The only thing that would cause Roca to dismiss the case is if the boy had an alibi that placed him somewhere else during the time of the shootings. Short of that, once the state has formerly accused someone the case will continue forward. The state does not like to drop cases because of overzealous police and prosecutors. They will take it to trial even if they knew the person was innocent.

[Good_Gawd]

Can we wait and see what his defense will be first?

I don't think so. He will be found incompetent to stand trial. imo
He will walk.

[Good_Gawd]

Stranger things HAVE happened! If he thinks the boy will get off lightly and he would be facing the DP, I could see it happening.

It was really just one more stream of conscious thought that I felt needed to be said in case it might trigger someone to add to it or alter it as yet another theory.

LeRoy should be a suspect. Family member, means, opportunity, access to the home, certainly ability and drives a white car.:shrug:
Plus Leroy had phone contact with Vinnie that day at approx 4:43pm-4:45pm.

[muska]

I thought I read somewhere that TR had another weapon and wondered where in the heck it was. Was it a .22 caliber?

I don't think so. My thought was that he could have grabbed it to defend himself but never got the chance.

A lot of the ideas are kind of unlikely but not any more so than an eight year old commiting this crime. I think we all might be able to agree that these kinds of crimes often don't make much sense.

[Good_Gawd]

I don't think so. My thought was that he could have grabbed it to defend himself but never got the chance.

A lot of the ideas are kind of unlikely but not any more so than an eight year old commiting this crime. I think we all might be able to agree that these kinds of crimes often don't make much sense.
A Co-worker said he always had 2 guns with him. One Is missing. (Police reports)

[JD1974]

Tell them to ask for a parent to be with them while being questioned or an attorney. That is part of Miranda. They have to specifically ask for an attorney and LE doesn't have to tell them someone is there for them, the suspect or person being question has to specifically request someone be with them.


Oh you can bet on that! My kids question everything, including me!

[muska]

A Co-worker said he always had 2 guns with him. One Is missing. (Police reports)

Yes, I know that....the gun that his friend said he kept behind the seat was not there. Maybe it wasn't in the truck at all that day, but then again, maybe it was and now it's missing.

[PensiveOne]

Plus Leroy had phone contact with Vinnie that day at approx 4:43pm-4:45pm.

It wasn't Leroy, it was Tiffany's dad.

[JD1974]

Nothing in this case adds up, something is always missing no matter what way you try and put it together!

[Hawk]

Stranger things HAVE happened! If he thinks the boy will get off lightly and he would be facing the DP, I could see it happening.

It was really just one more stream of conscious thought that I felt needed to be said in case it might trigger someone to add to it or alter it as yet another theory.

Leroy should be a suspect. Family member, means, opportunity, access to the home, certainly ability and drives a white car.:shrug:

Well, okay if that's what you think. Leroy and Tiffany?????
Shouldn't we remember that the people we are pointing fingers at, with absolutely no evidence whatsoever, especially Leroy and Liz, are alive and well? They have feelings. Have sorrow. Miss their departed son beyond words. Are concerned and heartbroken that their grandson is in jail. It seems a mite cruel and unfair to suggest Leroy killed his own son and is allowing the child to be in jail for the crime.
There is zero evidence or statements to substantiate that.

Maybe the fingers should be pointed in a different direction. This one seems weak.

Just my opinion.

[Good_Gawd]

It wasn't Leroy, it was Tiffany's dad.

It was? :confused:

[PensiveOne]

It was? :confused:

Yes, it is in Avila's report.

[PensiveOne]

It was? :confused:

Tiffany said that Vincent called on her cell \Phone at 4:27 p.m. He told her he was on his way home from work. Vincent worked for Zachary, a sub contractor out at the SRP power plant. Tiffany also said her dad spoke with Vincent approximately 15 minutes after she did.

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/avila.pdf

[Good_Gawd]

Yes, it is in Avila's report.

Well where does he live? Did Vinnie call him and tell him his daughter was fighting with him?

[PensiveOne]

Well where does he live? Did Vinnie call him and tell him his daughter was fighting with him?

I don't know where he lives. As to his and VR's conversation...the report did not say.

[Good_Gawd]

Well, okay if that's what you think. Leroy and Tiffany?????
Shouldn't we remember that the people we are pointing fingers at, with absolutely no evidence whatsoever, especially Leroy and Liz, are alive and well? They have feelings. Have sorrow. Miss their departed son beyond words. Are concerned and heartbroken that their grandson is in jail. It seems a mite cruel and unfair to suggest Leroy killed his own son and is allowing the child to be in jail for the crime.
There is zero evidence or statements to substantiate that.

Maybe the fingers should be pointed in a different direction. This one seems weak.

Just my opinion.I don't suspect Leroy.
I DO think Leroy and Liz know more than they told the officers.

[Good_Gawd]

I don't know where he lives. As to his and VR's conversation...the report did not say.

I read somewhere he lives in Flagstaff. Don't know how true it is.

[Hawk]

I don't suspect Leroy.
I DO think Leroy and Liz know more than they told the officers.

I doubt there are two people in the world who are more anxious to know what happened, and why, than Liz and Leroy. They must be devastated.

[PensiveOne]

I doubt there are two people in the world who are more anxious to know what happened, and why, than Liz and Leroy. They must be devastated.

I agree Hawk.

[wolfi_2]

Eryn writes a comment on Small Child's HOPE and VOICE

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewProfile&friendID=435515258

[IAMME]

Where has it been verified that Vinnie did not want anymore children. I have never seen that reported anywhere.

If Tiffany was angry that he didn't want anymore kids then why kill Tim? I am sure he would have gone to the bar later on that night.

Why would a proposal cause someone to kill Tim Romans? Do you mean his girlfriend? She wasn't married so why would she kill him if she wanted to marry him and he had just asked her?

We have no idea if Tanya even knew about the 170 mile away relationship, until after he was murdered.

Does Amos drive a white car with no rims on the back? I thought he drove a white Ford Ranger truck?

imoo

We do know that her daughters knew....I would have a hard time keeping something like that from my mother..........And we also know that one of the girls was not happy about the relationship, so I think she should be added to the list, having your breadwinner leave when you are needing tuition would be a strong motive IMO. And gma drives a white chevy aveo, dont know if it has black rims, but do know it fit the description closely enough that LE took pics of it......

Also, one of you "gun people", cant you convert the chipmunk to shoot .17s? Not that that tells us much bc unfortunately the boy says in the video that his stepmother had him carry the guns upstairs and put the away b4 bc his father didnt know how to pick up after hisself, so that gun could have been used at any point and left laying there for days, weeks, or even months......My best friends hubby has been known to use a .22 to shoot stray cats out the back door, not nice, but true, so this gun coulda been by the door for a similar reason....

[wolfi_2]

You beat me Wolfi!


Yes, but I forgot the:wub:

[suzanne]

Stranger things HAVE happened! If he thinks the boy will get off lightly and he would be facing the DP, I could see it happening.

It was really just one more stream of conscious thought that I felt needed to be said in case it might trigger someone to add to it or alter it as yet another theory.

LeRoy should be a suspect. Family member, means, opportunity, access to the home, certainly ability and drives a white car.:shrug:

I think Leroy should be a suspect too.Everyone should be looked at.

[Hawk]

[QUOTE=IAMME;12664084]We do know that her daughters knew....I would have a hard time keeping something like that from my mother..........And we also know that one of the girls was not happy about the relationship, so I think she should be added to the list, having your breadwinner leave when you are needing tuition would be a strong motive IMO. And gma drives a white chevy aveo, dont know if it has black rims, but do know it fit the description closely enough that LE took pics of it......

QUOTE]

We don't really know if the daughters knew. The statement comes from Mr. Romans 'girlfriend', Candice Budreau, at the bar, to Avila and Neckels. Men have been known to stretch the truth a little to pacify a sidedish (I still like that word) to keep her on the hook.

[suzanne]

I disagree however, that there is NO evidence that may implicate LeRoy. The boy said the getaway car looked like grandpas. Grandpa had a gun very much like his. Grandpa was at the house sometimes when his parents weren't home. Could it be nothing? Sure. But I don't think it is completely far fetched to entertain the idea of him being a suspect.

IMO


I think it points to him too.Either as a suspect or a witness.

[Good_Gawd]

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewProfile&friendID=435515258

Eryn posted on the boy's MySpace today! She says she appreciates everyones help and so does her son!

:wub:

I told everyone last night she was back. Now ask me how I knew.

[Hawk]

Compassion for the family survivors is a rare Jewel.

[Good_Gawd]

Yes, but I forgot the:wub:

LOL, you, me and Eryn are top friends of ChildsVOICE. :thumbup:

[ChildsVOICE]

A friend of mine pointed out something....

How did the brain matter get on the wall if BOTH VRs shots to the head (1) from front into and through hard hat into skull into brain
(1) entrance wound around left ear into brain

both bullets found fragmented in brain

both bullets had no exit wounds

Hard hat still on head.

Wouldn't hard hat keep any brain matter contained?

No exit wounds to cause brain matter to splatter wall.

Can any one figure this one out?

Just logged on to quickly ask and let you ponder. Got to take my son to doctor. I'll check back later.

[muska]

[QUOTE=IAMME;12664084]We do know that her daughters knew....I would have a hard time keeping something like that from my mother..........And we also know that one of the girls was not happy about the relationship, so I think she should be added to the list, having your breadwinner leave when you are needing tuition would be a strong motive IMO. And gma drives a white chevy aveo, dont know if it has black rims, but do know it fit the description closely enough that LE took pics of it......

QUOTE]

We don't really know if the daughters knew. The statement comes from Mr. Romans 'girlfriend', Candice Budreau, at the bar, to Avila and Neckels. Men have been known to stretch the truth a little to pacify a sidedish (I still like that word) and keep her on the hook.

So, did TR really propose to Candy and did his daughters really know about this relationship? If Candy was telling lies like that about Tim so soon after his murder, I would find that pretty suspicious. Maybe she wanted to be a lot more important to him than she was and......

And if he did propose, it's pretty darn coincidental that he's dead the next day.

[muska]

Eryn writes a comment on Small Child's HOPE and VOICE

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewProfile&friendID=435515258

Great to hear from Eryn and I am so happy she's back!!! Thanks for posting the link!

[Perplexed1]

That is not true. Many children can and do hold grunges long enough to want to harm the person they are angry with. The difference is that children generally do not plan these sort of things at that age and when they do their plans are usually not very well thought out.

This little guy's case has captured so many hearts because he sounds so sweet and, just normal. Unloved, abused children don't sound like he did. He simply told the ladies what happened. the they continued on and on until he started fabricating, to help with the story. anyone with kids, grandkids, know they do this. I really connected with Eryn, too, from her GMA spot. Normal, sweet lady, trying to get her son the heck out of that situation. :huh:

[muska]

I told everyone last night she was back. Now ask me how I knew.

Okay, so how did you know? :confused:

[IAMME]

We don't really know if the daughters knew. The statement comes from Mr. Romans 'girlfriend', Candice Budreau, at the bar, to Avila and Neckels. Men have been known to stretch the truth a little to pacify a sidedish (I still like that word) and keep her on the hook.

True enough, but I personally believe that they did know, I can't remember the exact statement well enough to know if "candy" said that she had met the girls or not.... But she does have pics of TR on her myspace, and both girls do have myspace pages (they are both set to private, but you can get a cached version of them, not much info there although the older one seems to have an attitude) ....Candy's wasnt hard to find, i just looked up mickeys bar and she was on mickeys friend list.... so it wouldnt be hard for the girls or Tanya to have done the same thing if they were suspicious.....I also tend to believe the story about them being seperated since TR was living on the reservation, and Tanya was living in Phoenix near/with the girls.......

[Hawk]

A friend of mine pointed out something....

How did the brain matter get on the wall if BOTH VRs shots to the head (1) from front into and through hard hat into skull into brain
(1) entrance wound around left ear into brain

both bullets found fragmented in brain

both bullets had no exit wounds

Hard hat still on head.

Wouldn't hard hat keep any brain matter contained?

No exit wounds to cause brain matter to splatter wall.

Can any one figure this one out?

Just logged on to quickly ask and let you ponder. Got to take my son to doctor. I'll check back later.

To answer those questions we would need Dr. Porterfield's full autopsy report. All I've seen are the comments noted by Sgt. Guinn (and he didn't mention exit wounds to the head or face although he did note four bullet shots causing six wounds. The wound to the ribs after exiting the arm is one. Where is the other?).
Are other reports available?

[PensiveOne]

do you have a link to rodregez report?

It is part of the search warrant.

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/SearchWarrant%20BO.pdf

[Good_Gawd]

Okay, so how did you know? :confused:

I talk to my friends on MySpace. :biggrin:

[Hawk]

True enough, but I personally believe that they did know, I can't remember the exact statement well enough to know if "candy" said that she had met the girls or not.... But she does have pics of TR on her myspace, and both girls do have myspace pages (they are both set to private, but you can get a cached version of them, not much info there although the older one seems to have an attitude) ....Candy's wasnt hard to find, i just looked up mickeys bar and she was on mickeys friend list.... so it wouldnt be hard for the girls or Tanya to have done the same thing if they were suspicious.....I also tend to believe the story about them being seperated since TR was living on the reservation, and Tanya was living in Phoenix near/with the girls.......

Thanks for the info! I didn't know all that.
So you think maybe Mr. Romans was serious about marrying Ms. Budreau? I figured it was just a three night a week pass time for him.

[muska]

Here's a really, really long stretch..........if TR did propose the night before, maybe he had a ring in his pocket. Maybe someone was looking for it when his pocket was emptied.

I try to stay away from wild speculation but couldn't help it this time!!

[Good_Gawd]

I don't know ChildsVOICE and I have no idea where her information comes from or if it can be relied upon.

All links to police reports are there, and so much more. Very reliable.

[Good_Gawd]

Here's a really, really long stretch..........if TR did propose the night before, maybe he had a ring in his pocket. Maybe someone was looking for it when his pocket was emptied.

I try to stay away from wild speculation but couldn't help it this time!!
What if she took the ring and said yes? Maybe she has it as proof!

[GentleBreeze]

We do know that her daughters knew....I would have a hard time keeping something like that from my mother..........And we also know that one of the girls was not happy about the relationship, so I think she should be added to the list, having your breadwinner leave when you are needing tuition would be a strong motive IMO. And gma drives a white chevy aveo, don't know if it has black rims, but do know it fit the description closely enough that LE took pics of it......

Also, one of you "gun people", cant you convert the chipmunk to shoot .17s? Not that that tells us much bc unfortunately the boy says in the video that his stepmother had him carry the guns upstairs and put the away b4 bc his father didn't know how to pick up after hisself, so that gun could have been used at any point and left laying there for days, weeks, or even months......My best friends hubby has been known to use a .22 to shoot stray cats out the back door, not nice, but true, so this gun coulda been by the door for a similar reason....

No, unfortunately we don't know that. He may have told his girlfriend that he had told them and one was upset about it. We don't know if his two daughters even knew. We only have the girlfriend saying that he told her he did.

But this is the same guy that said he was going to marry her yet no divorce papers had ever been filed.

Even the girlfriend admitted that Tim was less than truthful with her about things.

I have never shot a .17 caliber bullet in a .22 but the .17s weren't used in this case. The bullet and casing are slimmer and have an indented neck.

imo

[Hawk]

Here's a really, really long stretch..........if TR did propose the night before, maybe he had a ring in his pocket. Maybe someone was looking for it when his pocket was emptied.

I try to stay away from wild speculation but couldn't help it this time!!

And that one is better than many!

[Good_Gawd]

ooo, thank you very much.
do you have a link to other police reports? I would like to read those carefully too.

They are all here

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=435515258&blogID=463437844

[muska]

So if the .17 calibre bullets weren't used, why did they note their location(tabletop) and seem to consider them the bullets used? Rodriquez said he didn't look in the box so why would he think the bullets used in this crime were in that box?

[Hawk]

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=435515258&blogID=463437844

[Hawk]

I'm always too slow. I type three words a minute and think two.

[PensiveOne]

ooo, thank you very much.
do you have a link to other police reports? I would like to read those carefully too.

If you go to the links thread they are on there. Also, the Childshope (childsvoice) myspace has the links to all the reports. Happy reading:smile:

[GentleBreeze]

I don't know ChildsVOICE and I have no idea where her information comes from or if it can be relied upon.

I am somewhat confused by this too as it can't come from the boy's mother, since she saw him only once a month before this happened and wouldn't really know how exactly how much hunting or target practice he had done.

Even the boy says the gun is very easy to use so he must have been proud that he could hit a target.

I would think that information would have to come from someone who lived in St. John and may have gone hunting with him along with his dad.

[PensiveOne]

I'm always too slow. I type three words a minute and think two.

Hawk I am slower than you or Good Gawd:(

[Good_Gawd]

I'm always too slow. I type three words a minute and think two.

:lol::tonguewag::lol:

[Hawk]

So if the .17 calibre bullets weren't used, why did they note their location(tabletop) and seem to consider them the bullets used? Rodriquez said he didn't look in the box so why would he think the bullets used in this crime were in that box?

Good question for the Sgt. I don't know why he would assume that.

.22's often come in cardboard boxes that fall apart under hunting conditions. The bullets may have been poured in to the plastic .17 container just because it is more durable.

[Good_Gawd]

.22's often come in cardboard boxes that fall apart under hunting conditions. The bullets may have been poured in to the plastic .17 container just because it is more durable.

How would we know what was inside? They said they didn't look. :w00t:

Could be a box of Rocks. :lol:

[Perplexed1]

I disagree however, that there is NO evidence that may implicate LeRoy. The boy said the getaway car looked like grandpas. Grandpa had a gun very much like his. Grandpa was at the house sometimes when his parents weren't home. Could it be nothing? Sure. But I don't think it is completely far fetched to entertain the idea of him being a suspect.

IMO

Certainly no more far fetched than railroading the 8 yr old.:mad:

[IAMME]

No i dont think he was serious about marrying candy, but who knows maybe he was...but I doubt it, I thnk he was going through a seperation and was racking up as many notches as he could on his belt.....


I realize the .17s were not used, but cant you convert a 22 to shoot the .17s??? and if you did would that be a permanent thing, well as permanent as it being a 22 to begin with? It is my understanding that you cant just shoot the 17s in the 22, that something needs to be done to the gun first, but that it CAN be done, is that right???? I have no theory regarding this I just want to understand why LE took the box of 17s if they cant be shoot out of the 22.....they didnt list any other type of ammo and we know there were shells scattered all over upstairs, so I assume this wasnt the ONLY box of ammo in the house.... Also is a box of 17s
loose? I have a box of 22s and they are just loose in the box, but my .38s come in a box with the styrofoam thingy that holds each individual bullet, so which do the 17s come in??

[muska]

.22's often come in cardboard boxes that fall apart under hunting conditions. The bullets may have been poured in to the plastic .17 container just because it is more durable.

But he said he didn't check....maybe someone else had, but it didn't seem like it from his comment. I can see a clear difference in the new casing pictures that have been posted. Is there a chance that once shot, they'd be damaged enough so that the police at the scene would have thought the casings that they found were .17 calibre or would anyone familiar with casings see the difference easily?

[Hawk]

How would we know what was inside? They said they didn't look. :w00t:

Could be a box of Rocks. :lol:

Good luck on that.

[Hawk]

But he said he didn't check....maybe someone else had, but it didn't seem like it from his comment. I can see a clear difference in the new casing pictures that have been posted. Is there a chance that once shot, they'd be damaged enough so that the police at the scene would have thought the casings that they found were .17 calibre or would anyone familiar with casings see the difference easily?

Anyone familiar with casings would immediately see the difference.

[Good_Gawd]

Good luck on that.

And if there are all .17's in there, then what?:confused:

[Cherishlove]

I think it points to him too.Either as a suspect or a witness. I think that is far fetched he would have no motive and no one would kill there own son, and let the Grandson take responsibility I just don't see that at all and if he was a witness I'm sure he'd be saying something.

[muska]

Anyone familiar with casings would immediately see the difference.

Thanks for all the info - I saw somewhere that the chipmunk could be converted to shoot .17 calibre but if we know that the casings were definitely .22 calibre, it doesn't matter.

The boy, I remember, said his grandpa's gun shot the same bullets as his. I wonder if they know if they have that gun or not.

[JD1974]

Thanks for the info! I didn't know all that.
So you think maybe Mr. Romans was serious about marrying Ms. Budreau? I figured it was just a three night a week pass time for him.

I remember something about Candy meeting his daughters as well? I cannot remember from where though...

[IAMME]

For all of the "rights of the victims" folks out there.....How many of you, if your child shot you, killed you dead, would you really want your child at EIGHT YEARS OLD to be sitting in juvie???? Do you really think that this is what Vincent would want for his only son? REALLY?

Not saying I think they boy did it, I dont believe he did at all, which I think adds a whole nother layer to the insult to Vincents memory, by all accounts he was a loving caring father, (although completely irresponsible IMO) so can you IMAGINE what it would be like if he "knows" what is happening to his son!?!?!?!?!!?

I would haunt LE and the prosecution and whoever was responsible from the grave, if it were at all possible, if my child were being treated this way, regardless of weather he did it or not......

[Jacobtk]

And if there are all .17's in there, then what?:confused:

Then the evidence could be thrown out because the search warrant claims that it is something that it is not. The warrant states that all the rounds and casings found were .22 caliber. If they did not bother to check before writing that down then that raises serious questions about the rest of their investigation.

[Hawk]

And if there are all .17's in there, then what?:confused:

It means they picked up the wrong ammo.

I know the photo is a .17 box, but I don't think we known for sure that that's the box they took. We are missing a lot of photos.

[Good_Gawd]

For all of the "rights of the victims" folks out there.....How many of you, if your child shot you, killed you dead, would you really want your child at EIGHT YEARS OLD to be sitting in juvie???? Do you really think that this is what Vincent would want for his only son? REALLY?

Not saying I think they boy did it, I dont believe he did at all, which I think adds a whole nother layer to the insult to Vincents memory, by all accounts he was a loving caring father, (although completely irresponsible IMO) so can you IMAGINE what it would be like if he "knows" what is happening to his son!?!?!?!?!!?

I would haunt LE and the prosecution and whoever was responsible from the grave, if it were at all possible, if my child were being treated this way, regardless of weather he did it or not......

I agree, I would haunt them too. :cursing:

[Jacobtk]

It means they picked up the wrong ammo.

I know the photo is a .17 box, but I don't think we known for sure that that's the box they took. We are missing a lot of photos.

It has never been reported that they found two different boxes of ammo and it would not make any sense for the police to release a photo of a box of ammo they did not take. More likely than not, the box in the photo is the box the police claim was a box of .22 caliber rounds.

[Good_Gawd]

Then the evidence could be thrown out because the search warrant claims that it is something that it is not. The warrant states that all the rounds and casings found were .22 caliber. If they did not bother to check before writing that down then that raises serious questions about the rest of their investigation.

I honestly think this is the reason the gun and ammo were sent for further testing.

If the Gun Doesn't Fit, You must Aquit!
(who said that last night?) :lol:

[GentleBreeze]

For all of the "rights of the victims" folks out there.....How many of you, if your child shot you, killed you dead, would you really want your child at EIGHT YEARS OLD to be sitting in juvie???? Do you really think that this is what Vincent would want for his only son? REALLY?

Not saying I think they boy did it, I don't believe he did at all, which I think adds a whole nother layer to the insult to Vincents memory, by all accounts he was a loving caring father, (although completely irresponsible IMO) so can you IMAGINE what it would be like if he "knows" what is happening to his son!?!?!?!?!!?

I would haunt LE and the prosecution and whoever was responsible from the grave, if it were at all possible, if my child were being treated this way, regardless of weather he did it or not......

I am not quite sure that can be answered. First we would have to be murdered by our children and on this Earth the dead can't think or speak.

It reminds of another juvenile murder case where the boy's mother, who was a State Trooper, turned her son in to face the consequences of his actions.

So would we just want all of our parental teaching to turn out to mean nothing? All the teachings that everyone must be held responsible for their own actions? All the teachings about accountability and responsibility?

But it isn't up to Vinnie or Tim and what they may have wanted nor even the family members. When someone breaks one of the laws in this country it is the duty of the DAs to seek justice for the murder victims.

So to me that question just cant be answered.

imo

[Good_Gawd]

It has never been reported that they found two different boxes of ammo and it would not make any sense for the police to release a photo of a box of ammo they did not take. More likely than not, the box in the photo is the box the police claim was a box of .22 caliber rounds.

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2009/01/06/20090106stjohns.html

his fingerprints were found on a box of ammunition, according to lab reports disclosed Monday.

The boy, who turned 9 last month, frequently hunted with his father and could have held the box of .22-caliber cartridges or come into contact with residue at any time.

[Hawk]

For all of the "rights of the victims" folks out there.....How many of you, if your child shot you, killed you dead, would you really want your child at EIGHT YEARS OLD to be sitting in juvie???? Do you really think that this is what Vincent would want for his only son? REALLY?

Not saying I think they boy did it, I dont believe he did at all, which I think adds a whole nother layer to the insult to Vincents memory, by all accounts he was a loving caring father, (although completely irresponsible IMO) so can you IMAGINE what it would be like if he "knows" what is happening to his son!?!?!?!?!!?

I would haunt LE and the prosecution and whoever was responsible from the grave, if it were at all possible, if my child were being treated this way, regardless of weather he did it or not......

I won't venture into the supernatural, but there's enough compassion in the average heart go around. The family is grieving. The boy is in a place he doesn't deserve to be in. The rest of us are guessing.

Everyone just wants the truth. When the truth is known (if ever) it can be dealt with accordingly.

Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Just my opinion.

[Jacobtk]

I honestly think this is the reason the gun and ammo were sent for further testing.

Further testing would not change the results. If they could not find any prints or the casings do not match the gun, short of planting evidence they will just have to accept that. I think the items being sent for further testing means that the state released this report before the analysis had been completed. That would make sense given that at the time they released it, there was more growing support for the boy. The release was probably to turn people off from the idea that someone else committed these crimes. Since the police are no longer investigating other suspects, that would be the most likely reason.

[Hawk]

I honestly think this is the reason the gun and ammo were sent for further testing.

If the Gun Doesn't Fit, You must Aquit!
(who said that last night?) :lol:

That was Johnny Cochran from the beyond.

[Hawk]

It has never been reported that they found two different boxes of ammo and it would not make any sense for the police to release a photo of a box of ammo they did not take. More likely than not, the box in the photo is the box the police claim was a box of .22 caliber rounds.

I agree with you. But 'more likely than not' isn't a good fit with this investigation team.

[Jacobtk]

The boy, who turned 9 last month, frequently hunted with his father and could have held the box of .22-caliber cartridges or come into contact with residue at any time.

So that is the same box the police listed in the search warrant. The issue then is that someone either failed to state that the .22 rounds were found inside a box for .17 caliber rounds (possible room for the evidence to be suppressed) and/or Sgt. Rodriguez lied about having not checked inside the box (perjury).

[Jacobtk]

I agree with you. But 'more likely than not' isn't a good fit with this investigation team.

It is possible that it was just a writing error because whoever filled out the warrant had written ".22 caliber" so many times.

[PensiveOne]

So that is the same box the police listed in the search warrant. The issue then is that someone either failed to state that the .22 rounds were found inside a box for .17 caliber rounds (possible room for the evidence to be suppressed) and/or Sgt. Rodriguez lied about having not checked inside the box (perjury).

I think DPS probably looked inside the box and confirmed they were .22's. Rodriquez didn't look inside the box and was writing down what DPS told him. So, he couldn't testify to what was inside the box. Just guessing, but that seems logical to me.

[Good_Gawd]

But the box was found on the nightstand in the living room. The boy could have touched that box at any time.

And it was a box of .17s wasn't it?

[Cherishlove]

Certainly no more far fetched than railroading the 8 yr old.:mad:I agree....

[Jacobtk]

I think DPS probably looked inside the box and confirmed they were .22's. Rodriquez didn't look inside the box and was writing down what DPS told him. So, he couldn't testify to what was inside the box. Just guessing, but that seems logical to me.

True, but it would make what is on the warrant technically inaccurate. It is not a box of .22 caliber rounds. It is a box for .17 caliber rounds with (possibly) .22 caliber rounds inside. Given the attention to detail on the rest of the warrant, that seems like a problem. It probably would not be ruled out as evidence as a result, but it could based on the misinformation.

[Hawk]

It is possible that it was just a writing error because whoever filled out the warrant had written ".22 caliber" so many times.

Right. Then we look at witness statements without dates, addresses, etc., forms where with entries are in the wrong spaces, and on and on. Sloppy.
In many police jurisdictions this would be unacceptable and might cause disciplinary action and/or rejection from court admission.

[Cherishlove]

[QUOTE=Hawk;12664119]

So, did TR really propose to Candy and did his daughters really know about this relationship? If Candy was telling lies like that about Tim so soon after his murder, I would find that pretty suspicious. Maybe she wanted to be a lot more important to him than she was and......

And if he did propose, it's pretty darn coincidental that he's dead the next day.He may have proposed but either way I find it quit coincidental myself that he just so happens to die the next day?

[PensiveOne]

True, but it would make what is on the warrant technically inaccurate. It is not a box of .22 caliber rounds. It is a box for .17 caliber rounds with (possibly) .22 caliber rounds inside. Given the attention to detail on the rest of the warrant, that seems like a problem. It probably would not be ruled out as evidence as a result, but it could based on the misinformation.

That's true. It's like the mysterious .22 shell or shell casing in the rifle. That for sure is not accurate to be listed two ways on the search warrant listing, but it is. From reading the Rodriquez reports so far, he doesn't seem real detail oriented to me:smile:

[Hawk]

[QUOTE=muska;12664154]He may have proposed but either way I find it quit coincidental myself that he just so happens to die the next day?

Bad luck all around.

[Hawk]

That's true. It's like the mysterious .22 shell or shell casing in the rifle. That for sure is not accurate to be listed two ways on the search warrant listing, but it is. From reading the Rodriquez reports so far, he doesn't seem real detail oriented to me:smile:

I don't mean to be hateful, but the average day for the St. Johns PD is writing tickets and such. They've never investigated a murder before. Maybe in a little over their heads.

[Good_Gawd]

I think DPS probably looked inside the box and confirmed they were .22's. Rodriquez didn't look inside the box and was writing down what DPS told him. So, he couldn't testify to what was inside the box. Just guessing, but that seems logical to me.

I did not see one police report state that any of them looked.

[PensiveOne]

I don't mean to be hateful, but the average day for St. Johns PD is writing tickets and such. They've never investigated a murder before. Maybe in a little over their heads.

Yep, and the scary part is that they could be wrong about the little boy and he is the one paying the price,when all he may have done was walk around playing a little while, come home and find two dead bodies. I'll bet he is one sad little guy:(

[PensiveOne]

I did not see one police report state that any of them looked.

I know. I haven't either, like I said, I am guessing that is why Rodriquez stated at the hearing that "He" did not look in the box so he didn't know if they were .22's. And his reports are so non-detailed. That is sloppy work. IMO.

[Hawk]

Yes....yet all too eager to jump onto the airwaves releasing their video of the "confession" and beating their chests about solving the crime so quickly.

:rolleyes:

That was Chief Melnick, recently hired from New England. There might be a bit of animosity among the troops that this little town didn't promote from within. Or at least hire someone from the west
Just guessing.

[Jacobtk]

I don't mean to be hateful, but the average day for the St. Johns PD is writing tickets and such. They've never investigated a murder before. Maybe in a little over their heads.

Perhaps, but it is part of their job. There is no reason why a layperson like me should have a greater presence of mind as to what ought to be done, especially since the police chief worked in a major city before.

[Hawk]

Perhaps, but it is part of their job. There is no reason why a layperson like me should have a greater presence of mind as to what ought to be done, especially since the police chief worked in a major city before.

I'm sorry, I was referring to the chest pounding. I think that comes from the chief and Avila mostly. The others seem to want to do the right thing.

[Hawk]

Not really a big city cop.

http://www.wmicentral.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=19770307&BRD=2264&PAG=461&dept_id=506182&rfi=6

[muska]

I know. I haven't either, like I said, I am guessing that is why Rodriquez stated at the hearing that "He" did not look in the box so he didn't know if they were .22's. And his reports are so non-detailed. That is sloppy work. IMO.

I wonder if he didn't want to answer so he was evasive - I wasn't the one who checked. Maybe he knew they weren't 22s. Would he be allowed to do that if he knew but had not actually seen for himself?

[muska]

A while ago I mentioned that I'd seen a forum where gun owners were discussing how deadly a 22LR is. I said that one guy wrote about his "shady" friend who told him that a lot of hitmen like to use a 22 for head shots because the bullet bounces around inside the victim's head and kills him, not powerful enough to exit the head. Seems like that is pretty much what happened with VR and TR, I think, too. The hitman idea might not be too much of a stretch. Just a thought.

[Crispy]

The sad part here is that there is simply not enough information to proceed with any theory, IMO, and I am not sure there ever will be. The police just did NOT do a full investigation and released the crime scene far too quickly.

ITA with you on that one. The crime scene was released way too fast.

[muska]

The sad part here is that there is simply not enough information to proceed with any theory, IMO, and I am not sure there ever will be. The police just did NOT do a full investigation and released the crime scene far too quickly.

I hope the boy will be released if there is insufficient evidence, and that the prosecution doesn't, instead, decide to proceed regardless. I'm afraid they won't want to admit mistakes at any cost.

[wolfi_2]

Who is she and what is her connection to this case?


She is for me one of the strongest people in this case; she is the boy’s real mom!

[Hawk]

from Jones' report: I think this shows that Neckel and Avila lied when they didn't suspect the boy. That was one of the possibilities discussed:

We left the area and began driving back to St. Johns. While driving, we discussed the possibilities this information provided, which consisted of two lines of thought: 1) *********** was involved directly in the crime, or 2) **********was in the home at the time of the crime, and had either witnessed it or come upon the suspect(s) who may have threatened him into not telling what he knew.
A briefing was scheduled for 0830 hours that morning, and Sergeant Rodriguez and I discussed having Detective Neckel and Apache County Sheriffs Office Commander Matrese Avila conduct a forensic interview of ********, as we felt the second alternative was more likely, in that *********knew who had committed the crime, but for whatever reason chose not to come forward with the information he knew.

Would Cmd. Avila have locked him up the night of the murders had she had the authority?

[Jacobtk]

from Jones' report: I think this shows that Neckel and Avila lied when they didn't suspect the boy. That was one of the possibilities discussed:

Technically it would not be a lie if they personally did not suspect the boy. However, the way Brewer phrased the questions was as if the police in general suspected the boy and that was the reason the boy was being questioned a second time. Based on that, it would be fair to say that both women have perjured themselves. Even if they did not personally agree the boy did it, they were aware that the idea had been floated around before and withheld that testimony in their sworn interview. Withholding information also constitutes perjury.

[bkwits]

Aren't you sweet, thanks for thinking of me. :tongue side: I too had one as a child. I've allowed my son to use it, it's kept at my parents home. He's went a few times to target shoot with my brother in law....he's never had any difficultly using it either.

Is that the son who fed his lunch to the dog.

:lol:

[Hawk]

I think it's obvious that Avila wanted to cuff the boy immediately, Neckel was just following her lead. After Mrs. Romans statement it was a done deal. Case closed as far as St. Johns PD was concerned.

[muska]

Is that the son who fed his lunch to the dog.

:lol:

I was kind of wondering about that too. :smile:

Do you think that Justice Dawg is coming back?

[muska]

I think it's obvious that Avila wanted to cuff the boy immediately, Neckel was just following her lead. After Mrs. Romans statement it was a done deal. Case closed as far as St. Johns PD was concerned.

If I were alone in a room with Avila, I'm pretty sure I'd be scard! The boy, I bet, was really scard.

[Hawk]

If I were alone in a room with Avila, I'm pretty sure I'd be scard! The boy, I bet, was really scard.

I reckon so. She is in charge of the jail after all. Nothing sweet goes on there. It's not so much that she suspected the boy early, it's the way she patted his leg and baby talked him AFTER she got what she wanted, gloating like a great conqueror.
I truly believe Neckels was hating it though.

Just my opinion.

[muska]

Wasn't he also the head investigator for this case????

That's what Neckles said.

[muska]

I reckon so. She is in charge of the jail after all. Nothing sweet goes on there. It's not so much that she suspected the boy early, it's the way she patted his leg and baby talked him AFTER she got what she wanted, gloating like a great conqueror.
I truly believe Neckels was hating it though.

Just my opinion.

Just thinking Avila makes me feel a little ill...so I'm going to try not to.

[muska]

How would she know how good or how often the boy was with his gun?

Doesn't make sense

ChildsVoice did not say who told her the boy wasn't experienced with the gun. I doubt very much that it was Eryn.

[bkwits]

If I were alone in a room with Avila, I'm pretty sure I'd be scard! The boy, I bet, was really scard.



She cetainly scares me. :scared:

[Hawk]

then you would think he could be paying more attention to detail, wouldn't you???

Rodriguez went from giving tickets in the morning to doing a murder investigation in the late afternoon. Give him a break. The thing should have been turned over to the state, or at least the county sheriff. I don't imagine the chief would hear of that though.

[wolfi_2]

How would she know how good or how often the boy was with his gun?

Doesn't make sense

It is possible that she speak with his dad during her visit’s about there activities, but I’m the wrong person for such a question, because I don’t know who bring that up.

[muska]

It is possible that she speak with his dad during her visit’s about there activities, but I’m the wrong person for such a question, because I don’t know who bring that up.

I don't think Eryn was the person who told that to ChildsVoice. Eryn hasn't said anything about the boy publicly since her television interview. Childsvoice seems to have other contacts - she probably heard from one of them.

[wolfi_2]

You said ChildsVoice was the boy's mother? How can that be?

ChildsVoice posted a "little bird" told her.

Sorry, Little birds have very little credibility with me

I never said Childs voice is the boys mother Eryn! Childs voice is a website like this.:smile:

[Jacobtk]

Rodriguez went from giving tickets in the morning to doing a murder investigation in the late afternoon. Give him a break.

His job as a police officer is not to have breaks. By conducting a lackluster investigations he has potentially cost an innocent child his life. He has certainly helped emotionally damage this boy. If the boy is innocent, Rodriguez should lose his job and be placed in confinement for however long this boy remains in jail.

I know this sounds like a hard line position, but I have no sympathy for people who possess that much power and authority and screw up.

[ExPI]

Eryn = a wren = a little bird ? Nice pun!

That's tellin'em Jacobtk!

[wolfi_2]

Eryn = a wren = a little bird ? Nice pun!

That's tellin'em Jacobtk!

Eryn is a Gaelic name and the meaning of Eryn is "Ireland“

[wolfi_2]

Who is she and what is her connection to this case?

Well, that goes back to your post quoted above, so I understand that you ask me, who Eryn is.

[bkwits]

All of the LE involved in this fiasco should be stood down. What they've perpretrated in the name of the law is a disgrace. I don't care if they've never seen a hit and run accident victim, let alone 2 murder victims. The murder scene was not properly investigated and their rush to get that videotaped 'confession' out to the general public was the work of amateurs. And that's what I think of t
he LE involved in this - a bunch of amateurs.

ITA, but this abuse of power is not limited to the very small western town. The zeroing in on helpless children as murderors and depriving them of their rights, has also happened in Chicago's south side which has murders committed almost weekly. It is easy to nail a child for a crime. IMO

[wolfi_2]

There was some confusion.

I was talking about ChildsVOICE. She claimed the boy had no real experience shooting his gun. I was asking who ChildsVOICE was and her relationship to this case.

In other words, why should I give ChildsVOICE any crediblity at all?

Is ChildsVOICE and Eryn one in the same? Two different people? Who is ChildsVoice?

Eryn just posted on ChildsVOICE web site.


And I have to say good night for today

[bkwits]

Wolfi, I don't know if it got lost in translation or not, but you certainly did say she was the boys mother.

Can we please just give this a rest and get back to discussing the case?

[bkwits]

Eryn just posted on ChildsVOICE web site.


And I have to say good night for today

Good night Wolfi. :seeya:

[ChildsVOICE]

Or perhaps attempted too but could not line up the shot before the car got away. The unspent round makes no sense though if the boy is supposedly the shooter. Why would he stop firing? The other possibility is that the shooter had the forethought to put a round in the rifle and leave it by the door in order to implicate the boy.

OR the real shooter saw and / or heard the boy coming from down the street and left the scene asap leaving the loaded/unloaded gun behind possibly taking the Mossberg with them plus maybe the (missing?) handgun of TR.

[ChildsVOICE]

I am just trying to figure out why it's suddenly stated as a fact that the boy had no experience shooting with his own gun because someone calling themselves ChildsVOICE posted it here.

He did have AirSoft guns as well, correct?


The boy may have had experience with any number of other weapons and/or an air gun but the Chipmunk rifle was only recently given to the child and the father and the child had not had numerous training sessions with that particular gun.

The boy only had used that particular gun a "few" times and with his father's supervision and with help.

Not enough times to learn how to use it to be able to shoot two full grown men, inside and outside and upstairs and on the stairs and
in the heads and in the chests and some shots so close they formed one wound , EXECUTION style, reloading and ejecting single .22 caliber shells, 10 times, ejecting 10 times, loading each shell 10 times, aiming 10 times, pulling the trigger 10 times, without receiving bruising or pinching on his hands or fingers, climbing the stairs and descending the stairs carrying said rifle and ammunition while climbing over a full grown 5'11" loved one who was surrounded by a pool of blood on blood soaked carpeted stairs WITHOUT spilling any unspent shells, WHILE EXPECTING the other full grown man (who kept two handguns in his truck) to be walking into the door at any second to catch him and get him into trouble AND have the nerves to shoot two HUMANS with no prior profile to a sociopathic or psycotic episodes AND EXPECTING the step mother to arrive home momentarily, TURN his attention to the full grown man who would have been coming toward him, possibly with a handgun from inside his own truck, AND not being seen by the neighbor who heard shots and looked outside, AND THEN have the mental capabilities to come up with several cover perfectly logical stories such as a small white car with no rims/black rims in the back, seeing TR's truck "from behind (so & so's ) trees, AND worry about getting in trouble for admitting he was walking around the neighborhood and DISPLAYING SYMPATHY for TR because he tried not to hit him with the door but "thinks (he) tapped his (TRs) head a little bit" AND being so grossed out yet responsible to touch dad "to see if he was a little bit alive", PLUS think to add on the crying part for extra credit
etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.:no:
and I forgot one thing...not having anything to ANCHOR said .22 caliber rifle ON as he shot the bulls eye each time.

[ChildsVOICE]

All of the LE involved in this fiasco should be stood down. What they've perpretrated in the name of the law is a disgrace. I don't care if they've never seen a hit and run accident victim, let alone 2 murder victims. The murder scene was not properly investigated and their rush to get that videotaped 'confession' out to the general public was the work of amateurs. And that's what I think of the LE involved in this - a bunch of amateurs.

I agree. Let's work on proving the child's innocense first.

[ExPI]

An amateur is generally considered a person attached to a particular pursuit, study, or science, without formal training or pay. Conversely, an expert is generally considered a person with extensive knowledge, ability, and/or training in a particular area of study, while a professional is someone who also makes a living from it. Translated from its French origin to the English "lover of", the term "amateur" reflects a voluntary motivation to work as a result of personal passion for a particular activity.

WE are amateurs they were professionals. However poorly or ignorantly they did their job they still got paid.

[GentleBreeze]

The boy may have had experience with any number of other weapons and/or an air gun but the Chipmunk rifle was only recently given to the child and the father and the child had not had numerous training sessions with that particular gun.

The boy only had used that particular gun a "few" times and with his father's supervision and with help.

Not enough times to learn how to use it to be able to shoot two full grown men, inside and outside and upstairs and on the stairs and
in the heads and in the chests and some shots so close they formed one wound , EXECUTION style, reloading and ejecting single .22 caliber shells, 10 times, ejecting 10 times, loading each shell 10 times, aiming 10 times, pulling the trigger 10 times, without receiving bruising or pinching on his hands or fingers, climbing the stairs and descending the stairs carrying said rifle and ammunition while climbing over a full grown 5'11" loved one who was surrounded by a pool of blood on blood soaked carpeted stairs WITHOUT spilling any unspent shells, WHILE EXPECTING the other full grown man (who kept two handguns in his truck) to be walking into the door at any second to catch him and get him into trouble AND have the nerves to shoot two HUMANS with no prior profile to a sociopathic or psycotic episodes AND EXPECTING the step mother to arrive home momentarily, TURN his attention to the full grown man who would have been coming toward him, possibly with a handgun from inside his own truck, AND not being seen by the neighbor who heard shots and looked outside, AND THEN have the mental capabilities to come up with several cover perfectly logical stories such as a small white car with no rims/black rims in the back, seeing TR's truck "from behind (so & so's ) trees, AND worry about getting in trouble for admitting he was walking around the neighborhood and DISPLAYING SYMPATHY for TR because he tried not to hit him with the door but "thinks (he) tapped his (TRs) head a little bit" AND being so grossed out yet responsible to touch dad "to see if he was a little bit alive", PLUS think to add on the crying part for extra credit
etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.:no:
and I forgot one thing...not having anything to ANCHOR said .22 caliber rifle ON as he shot the bulls eye each time.

But what expert practice would it take to shoot this simple weapon? If he didn't know how to use it then why did he tell the officers that it was easy?

He wasn't shooting at a smaller target from many yards away. A human target is much ,much larger and vulnerable. These men where shot from a short distance away. Possibly starting at 24 feet (8 yards) for Romans and even closer than that for Vinnie.

Why would he or any young person need something to anchor the weapon on when they shoot it? The gun only weighs 2.5 pounds!

I thought the chest wounds to Romans were four inches apart? That is not the same wound or near the same hole.

It ejects on its on once the bolt lever is pulled up and back. He did not have to manually eject the spent casing. This one action would eject the spent casing and all he had to do is put another bullet in. The entire thing from ejection to loading and firing again takes seconds.

And to say these unarmed men should have been some type of superpowers on the most traumatic day of their lives is so unfair, imo. I put up a link yesterday showing how humans can react when under an extremely stressful attack and these attacks were as serious as it gets. Their brains do not comprehend and take in all that is happening at the time and there just wasn't time in this case to even have time to figure it out, when it only took seconds for them to be hit again and again...................multiple times.

IMO

[Hawk]

His job as a police officer is not to have breaks. By conducting a lackluster investigations he has potentially cost an innocent child his life. He has certainly helped emotionally damage this boy. If the boy is innocent, Rodriguez should lose his job and be placed in confinement for however long this boy remains in jail.

I know this sounds like a hard line position, but I have no sympathy for people who possess that much power and authority and screw up.

That's the point. He should never had that much power. Being a detective requires much more than taking a couple of classes with fellow traffic cops. Usually you are interned with an experienced detective. Unfortunately a small town like St. Johns doesn't have the benefit of such officers. The case should have been transferred.

[bkwits]

The boy may have had experience with any number of other weapons and/or an air gun but the Chipmunk rifle was only recently given to the child and the father and the child had not had numerous training sessions with that particular gun.

The boy only had used that particular gun a "few" times and with his father's supervision and with help.

Not enough times to learn how to use it to be able to shoot two full grown men, inside and outside and upstairs and on the stairs and
in the heads and in the chests and some shots so close they formed one wound , EXECUTION style, reloading and ejecting single .22 caliber shells, 10 times, ejecting 10 times, loading each shell 10 times, aiming 10 times, pulling the trigger 10 times, without receiving bruising or pinching on his hands or fingers, climbing the stairs and descending the stairs carrying said rifle and ammunition while climbing over a full grown 5'11" loved one who was surrounded by a pool of blood on blood soaked carpeted stairs WITHOUT spilling any unspent shells, WHILE EXPECTING the other full grown man (who kept two handguns in his truck) to be walking into the door at any second to catch him and get him into trouble AND have the nerves to shoot two HUMANS with no prior profile to a sociopathic or psycotic episodes AND EXPECTING the step mother to arrive home momentarily, TURN his attention to the full grown man who would have been coming toward him, possibly with a handgun from inside his own truck, AND not being seen by the neighbor who heard shots and looked outside, AND THEN have the mental capabilities to come up with several cover perfectly logical stories such as a small white car with no rims/black rims in the back, seeing TR's truck "from behind (so & so's ) trees, AND worry about getting in trouble for admitting he was walking around the neighborhood and DISPLAYING SYMPATHY for TR because he tried not to hit him with the door but "thinks (he) tapped his (TRs) head a little bit" AND being so grossed out yet responsible to touch dad "to see if he was a little bit alive", PLUS think to add on the crying part for extra credit
etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.:no:
and I forgot one thing...not having anything to ANCHOR said .22 caliber rifle ON as he shot the bulls eye each time.


EXCELLENT Post. :thumbsup: I also had thought of the anchoring or resting the rifle somewhere to shoot. It just seems more improbable as time passes. IMO

[bkwits]

If the boy was left alone everyday for an hour or two, you have no idea if he took the Chipmunk out and practiced on his own. He did admit to sneaking out with the airsoft gun.



I would not expect bruises or cuts of any kind to be on the boy from shooting this gun 10 times or 50 times. There is no reason to expect there would be. I have no idea who started that notion, but IMO it's a silly one.


The other stuff I have already addressed elsewhere. I'm not trying to be rude. I just have to go tend to real life and unable to spend the time rehashing it all again.

Snipped for relevance.

Where would he go shooting his gun? Ridiculous to assume or speculate that. IMO

It seems that you are the one who kept nagging Wolfi about Child'sVoice. Now that she is here posting, you want to silence her it seems. IMo

[Hawk]

But what expert practice would it take to shoot this simple weapon? If he didn't know how to use it then why did he tell the officers that it was easy?

IMO

Right. These weren't exactly sharpshooter hits. Other than the two chest shots to Mr. Romans they they weren't accurate shots at all.
They may not have even been in rapid succession. But they certainly were persistent.

[ChildsVOICE]

Who is she and what is her connection to this case?

I am a mother of a little 8 year old boy and more.

I have an Early Childhood Education Degree.

I am someone who was raised around hunters.

I went to a Catholic school.

I have a protection order against an ex who was very much like TR.

I am a proud citizen of these United States of America.

I have a son willing to die for his country.

I am the one who must explain to him what he may die for.

I am a person of compassion, love, empathy, and sympathy.

I am a person who believes one should not complain if one is not willing to take action.

I am someone who believes in the Constitution.

I am someone who believes in the proper due process of the law.

I am someone who believes that if these people CAN & WILL do this to this child, others will follow and my child is next.

I am someone who believes that those in authority should be monitored and held accountable especially when I am helping to supply their paycheck.

I am God's child and want to be able to go home to him one day which could, very well, be sooner than later.

I am someone who cares about this boy, who loves this little child, and who, when no one else publicly did &/or could, gave this little child a voice.

I am someone who when my son asked "That is terrible about how they are treating that little boy but, WHAT CAN I DO ABOUT IT?"

PROVED TO HIM THE ANSWER.

Now, back to proving this child is innocent. After all, tonight, he's going to bed in a cell, ALONE, where his nightmares await him.

After all, "the bad guys" are still out there.

[Hawk]

check out wmicentral site and under the police rebuilt for angel in st.john's comment. mmmmm what does she know? she has got me curious??

Do you have a link to share? I couldn't find it.

[muska]

If the boy was left alone everyday for an hour or two, you have no idea if he took the Chipmunk out and practiced on his own. He did admit to sneaking out with the airsoft gun.



I would not expect bruises or cuts of any kind to be on the boy from shooting this gun 10 times or 50 times. There is no reason to expect there would be. I have no idea who started that notion, but IMO it's a silly one.


The other stuff I have already addressed elsewhere. I'm not trying to be rude. I just have to go tend to real life and unable to spend the time rehashing it all again.

I believe the boy committed these murders and I believe the boy had plenty of time to commit them. The gun weighs a little more than two pounds, an anchor is not needed.

I hope I'm wrong. Sadly, I just do not believe he's innocent.

Since the police checked for bruises or pinched fingers, I guess they thought it was a possibilty.

[Details]

I would think if he "practiced with the Chipmunk at home, someone would have heard or seen him"Someone would have noticed missing bullets, to practice that much!

[bkwits]

Do you have a link to share? I couldn't find it.

Here ya go Hawk. Scroll down to the bottom of the page.

http://www.wmicentral.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20237563&BRD=2264&PAG=461&dept_id=506182&rfi=6

[ExPI]

For Hawk:
Quote:
Originally Posted by minnesotamom
check out wmicentral site and under the police rebuilt for angel in st.john's comment. mmmmm what does she know? she has got me curious??

Do you have a link to share? I couldn't find it.


http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20237563&brd=2264&pag=797&dept_id=506182&startrow=1&maxrows

[Hawk]

Here ya go Hawk. Scroll down to the bottom of the page.

http://www.wmicentral.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20237563&BRD=2264&PAG=461&dept_id=506182&rfi=6


Thank each of you!

[Hawk]

Here ya go Hawk. Scroll down to the bottom of the page.

http://www.wmicentral.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20237563&BRD=2264&PAG=461&dept_id=506182&rfi=6

She certainly sounds like some of the court transcripts, but do you think she really knows the family, or is from St. Johns? There isn't any new info there.

Just asking.

[ExPI]

Originally Posted by HotNostril
If the boy was left alone everyday for an hour or two, you have no idea if he took the Chipmunk out and practiced on his own. He did admit to sneaking out with the airsoft gun.

I thought the boy might have had the rifle out without permission too. I looked around the neighborhood on Google street view. There is no place for him to hide and practice. I am sure that ranchers are as protective of their fenced pastures as farmers are around here, probably more. If there is a place, YOU find it. Then talk.

[Jacobtk]

But what expert practice would it take to shoot this simple weapon?

To shoot it, none. To shoot accurately with it, quite a bit. The wounds on the men were not haphazard shots taken at random. They were aimed shots, particularly Romans' wounds. That takes practice and skill, certainly more than 10 months of occasional shootings. Even if the boy snuck away to practice, he could not take too many rounds without his father noticing, so he likely was not shooting very much in secret.

If he didn't know how to use it then why did he tell the officers that it was easy?

For the same reason that if asked an 8-year-old if he could do a back flip he would likely say yes. Children like to look capable, so they will say they are able to do things they cannot do.

He wasn't shooting at a smaller target from many yards away. A human target is much ,much larger and vulnerable.

That still would not explain the grouped shots. In order to do that with a single-shot rifle the victim would have to remain still or the shooter would have to be very skilled. It is much harder to aim at a moving target than you may think.

I thought the chest wounds to Romans were four inches apart? That is not the same wound or near the same hole.

No, it is not. However, 3-4 inches is about the length of your thumb or index finger. To shoot someone that closely to the previous shot implies that the shooter was aiming for the same spot as before and the target moved.

The entire thing from ejection to loading and firing again takes seconds.

True, but that assumes that if the boy did it he was perfectly calm. He could have fumbled with the rounds as he loaded them, dropped them or paused at any point.

And to say these unarmed men should have been some type of superpowers on the most traumatic day of their lives is so unfair, imo.

If I recall correctly, Romans' apparently attempted to run away. There was a blood trail that led to his body. That undermines your point.

Their brains do not comprehend and take in all that is happening at the time and there just wasn't time in this case to even have time to figure it out

Which means it is possible for the men to have been shot and been so surprised by it that they did not realize they had been shot. There are simply too many possibilities that have not been ruled out to definitively state what exactly happened or who did the shooting. What we can do is exclude people and the boy would be excluded based on what is available.

[Hawk]

To shoot it, none. To shoot accurately with it, quite a bit. The wounds on the men were not haphazard shots taken at random. They were aimed shots, particularly Romans' wounds. That takes practice and skill, certainly more than 10 months of occasional shootings. .

Good grief! The longest shot to Mr. Romans was about 20'. The shots to Mr. Romero less than 10'. These ain't exactly Wild Bill Hickock skill set requirements.

[bkwits]

She certainly sounds like some of the court transcripts, but do you think she really knows the family, or is from St. Johns? There isn't any new info there.

Just asking.

I think there is a better than even chance that she does. She is certainly not well-educated, or if she is, she manages to hide it well. IMO

[Hawk]

I think there is a better than even chance that she does. She is certainly not well-educated, or if she is, she manages to hide it well. IMO

I'm sorry. I wasn't questioning her education. (I have to use spell check before each posting). I'm just a little surprised, or more likely disappointed, in the lack if new information.

[GentleBreeze]

To shoot it, none. To shoot accurately with it, quite a bit. The wounds on the men were not haphazard shots taken at random. They were aimed shots, particularly Romans' wounds. That takes practice and skill, certainly more than 10 months of occasional shootings. Even if the boy snuck away to practice, he could not take too many rounds without his father noticing, so he likely was not shooting very much in secret.



For the same reason that if asked an 8-year-old if he could do a back flip he would likely say yes. Children like to look capable, so they will say they are able to do things they cannot do.



That still would not explain the grouped shots. In order to do that with a single-shot rifle the victim would have to remain still or the shooter would have to be very skilled. It is much harder to aim at a moving target than you may think.



No, it is not. However, 3-4 inches is about the length of your thumb or index finger. To shoot someone that closely to the previous shot implies that the shooter was aiming for the same spot as before and the target moved.



True, but that assumes that if the boy did it he was perfectly calm. He could have fumbled with the rounds as he loaded them, dropped them or paused at any point.



If I recall correctly, Romans' apparently attempted to run away. There was a blood trail that led to his body. That undermines your point.



Which means it is possible for the men to have been shot and been so surprised by it that they did not realize they had been shot. There are simply too many possibilities that have not been ruled out to definitively state what exactly happened or who did the shooting. What we can do is exclude people and the boy would be excluded based on what is available.

Where does it say that Romans tried to run away? There was a 24 ft. blood drop trail starting close to the truck, iirc and he died on the patio porch of the home. That is not attempting to runaway. An attempt to runaway from the shots being fired from the home toward him..... he would have been found away from the home, closer to his truck. So I fail to see the point you are trying to make.

These were not masterful shots by any stretch of the imagination imo. They were haphazard ones. A sharpshooter doesn't hit an arm right above the elbow or shoot into a forearm. The shots that scored were the ones where the target was larger to hit and the head shots were done when they both were no longer able to resist the killers determination to murder them by shooting them in the head.

He wasnt some expert shooter and he didnt have to be. He just had the edge..........he had the weapon and they had none.

imo

[Cherishlove]

I think there is a better than even chance that she does. She is certainly not well-educated, or if she is, she manages to hide it well. IMO
Well it's hard to tell if she really knows, but what I heard was that the step mom isn't there for the boy, nor did she try to get custody? She's not even on Childsvoice to stand up for the boy? I have no idea if she is or is not there for this child but I hope she is, otherwise I lose full respect for the his step mom. I just hope she is there for him?

[ChildsVOICE]

i also have an 8 year old boy same age/grade as this little one. my heart breaks for this little one everyday and will continue to break until he is home with his mother and family that love and support him. i think what you are doing is great and it is nice that so many of us can share our thoughts and prayers for the little one and his mother on my space. keep up the good work! i visit childshope everyday and its so nice to know this little one has got so much love and support from all over. what really upsets me is every night i go and give my son hugs/kisses and tuck him in at night and can't help, but feel sad for this little one that doesn't have that and its heartbreaking. anyway your such a thoughtful person for what your doing for this little one and i am sure his mother and family appreciate it.

Thank you, very much. The mother and family do appreciate it and have stated the boy does find encouragement to know that there are so many people out there who is supporting him and sending him well wishes.

I just think that this In Session Message Board has great opportunity and potential to help find an answer to the truth whether it points to or away from the boy. It sounds as though there are a LOT of intelligent, detail oriented, caring, professional, experienced, knowledgable individuals willing to take their time out of their busy day to help find a truthful answer. And, I for one would like to see that happen.

If the boy did it, he would need help. If the boy did not do it, we need to know so the actual perpetrators can be brought to justice and in this particular case, since this child has had to suffer, add on a little more justice. Because this boy is so young we owe it to him to do everything we can to help him in whatever capacity that may be.

We are BLESSED to have this board as a means to share ideas, information, theories, knowledge, experience, ect. I remember a short few years ago this would not be possible. We should be using this blessing to help this little boy and his family, not bicker back and forth about our opinions. ANYTHING is possible. It's our jobs as the adults to step in and PROVE what happened, since those in St. Johns, apparently, do not wish to.

[Hawk]

For Hawk:



http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20237563&brd=2264&pag=797&dept_id=506182&startrow=1&maxrows

There are some great posts here from folks claiming to be from the St. Johns area. Check out 'concerned police officer' on the next page, if you haven't already. Good stuff.

[Hawk]

Thank you, very much. The mother and family do appreciate it and have stated the boy does find encouragement to know that there are so many people out there who is supporting him and sending him well wishes.

I just think that this In Session Message Board has great opportunity and potential to help find an answer to the truth whether it points to or away from the boy. It sounds as though there are a LOT of intelligent, detail oriented, caring, professional, experienced, knowledgable individuals willing to take their time out of their busy day to help find a truthful answer. And, I for one would like to see that happen.

If the boy did it, he would need help. If the boy did not do it, we need to know so the actual perpetrators can be brought to justice and in this particular case, since this child has had to suffer, add on a little more justice. Because this boy is so young we owe it to him to do everything we can to help him in whatever capacity that may be.

We are BLESSED to have this board as a means to share ideas, information, theories, knowledge, experience, ect. I remember a short few years ago this would not be possible. We should be using this blessing to help this little boy and his family, not bicker back and forth about our opinions. ANYTHING is possible. It's our jobs as the adults to step in and PROVE what happened, since those in St. Johns, apparently, do not wish to.

Indeed. You've stated it perfectly!

[ChildsVOICE]

Where would he go shooting his gun? Ridiculous to assume or speculate that. IMO

It seems that you are the one who kept nagging Wolfi about Child'sVoice. Now that she is here posting, you want to silence her it seems. IMo

Someone able to silence me?! HAW! NEVER!

Have you seen how long my posts are? or the boy's site? LOL
:lol::tonguewag::wink:

[ChildsVOICE]

Indeed. You've stated it perfectly!

Hawk, Yep. You're one of the smart ones! LOL:lol:

Even if I don't agree with ya!

...'cause you said you can't argue with me 'cause of your Southern upbringin. LOL

:lol::blushing:

[Details]

Amateur - derived from a French word for love, one who does what they do for the love of it.

And while we generally make judgments that a pro (paid) is better than an amateur(unpaid) - that's, of course, often not true, as well as often true. Someone just doing it for the money - they may not be putting as much time as someone doing it for a hobby - but spending a lot of time and effort on that hobby.


Not directed at anyone or any post - just a little linguistic diversion that I thought might be generally relevant to these forums.

[Hawk]

A post from the news site;


You claim to have strengthened the drug task force? Isn't the task force part of the Sheriff's Office, not St. Johns PD? You seem to be trying to take credit for things which were already in place before you accepted the job. As far as claiming to manage the airplane crash, it seemed your newly appointed Sergeant on the scene had no clue what he was supposed to do. Thank God ACSO also responded. I wont even comment on the homicide investigation you claim to have managed so well. Oh, and by the way, St. Johns police blogs have always been made public, so try again Chief, can't take credit for that one. If this is the extent of the St. Johns Police Chief "management" I feel really sorry for it's citizens, as well as the PD's employees.


SB, Show Low, Az.

[bkwits]

Well it's hard to tell if she really knows, but what I heard was that the step mom isn't there for the boy, nor did she try to get custody? She's not even on Childsvoice to stand up for the boy? I have no idea if she is or is not there for this child but I hope she is, otherwise I lose full respect for the his step mom. I just hope she is there for him?

Assuming Tiffany didn't have any involvement in the deaths or mistreatment of the child, I think it must be very difficult for her. She is only about 24, I believe. I also hope she is there for the child. He needs everyone on his side.

[Good_Gawd]

If the boy was left alone everyday for an hour or two, you have no idea if he took the Chipmunk out and practiced on his own. He did admit to sneaking out with the airsoft gun.



I would not expect bruises or cuts of any kind to be on the boy from shooting this gun 10 times or 50 times. There is no reason to expect there would be. I have no idea who started that notion, but IMO it's a silly one.


The other stuff I have already addressed elsewhere. I'm not trying to be rude. I just have to go tend to real life and unable to spend the time rehashing it all again.

I believe the boy committed these murders and I believe the boy had plenty of time to commit them. The gun weighs a little more than two pounds, an anchor is not needed.

I hope I'm wrong. Sadly, I just do not believe he's innocent.

The child was alone 2 days a week for 2 hours.

[Hawk]

Assuming Tiffany didn't have any involvement in the deaths or mistreatment of the child, I think it must be very difficult for her. She is only about 24, I believe. I also hope she is there for the child. He needs everyone on his side.

Maybe she just can't bring herself, either from immaturity or mourning, to do the right thing and support the youngster.
Do we really know that she hasn't visited him in jail?

[Hawk]

OooKaaay. The police chief is claiming that LE did a good job with the homicide investigation. An 8 year old child who has never displayed any psychotic tendencies - appears, in fact, to be as well adjusted as any normal 8 year old - is videotaped 'confessing' to a double murder with no adults or lawyers present. Let's not forget the 'oops we didn't read the child his Miranda rights'.

If this is a good investigation, I'd really hate to see a botched one.

One supposed St. Johns resident poster said that the Romero family asked Chief Melnick not to attend Mr. Romero's funeral. Do you believe that?

This messed up case seems to be more and more on the chief's shoulders. (Of course he's the boss and it should be).

[GentleBreeze]

Thank you, very much. The mother and family do appreciate it and have stated the boy does find encouragement to know that there are so many people out there who is supporting him and sending him well wishes.

I just think that this In Session Message Board has great opportunity and potential to help find an answer to the truth whether it points to or away from the boy. It sounds as though there are a LOT of intelligent, detail oriented, caring, professional, experienced, knowledgable individuals willing to take their time out of their busy day to help find a truthful answer. And, I for one would like to see that happen.

If the boy did it, he would need help. If the boy did not do it, we need to know so the actual perpetrators can be brought to justice and in this particular case, since this child has had to suffer, add on a little more justice. Because this boy is so young we owe it to him to do everything we can to help him in whatever capacity that may be.

We are BLESSED to have this board as a means to share ideas, information, theories, knowledge, experience, ect. I remember a short few years ago this would not be possible. We should be using this blessing to help this little boy and his family, not bicker back and forth about our opinions. ANYTHING is possible. It's our jobs as the adults to step in and PROVE what happened, since those in St. Johns, apparently, do not wish to.

While our opinions vastly differ in this case, I do very much admire your dedication and think you have a very loving heart.:rose:

I am not sure any of us here can prove what happened but yes, it is nice to debate all the issues and give our own thoughts and ideas.

That is why we come here to express opinions and exchange theories and ideas.

imoo

[bkwits]

Maybe she just can't bring herself, either from immaturity or mourning, to do the right thing and support the youngster.
Do we really know that she hasn't visited him in jail?

Well, I don't know that. Maybe others do know.

[Crispy]

Maybe someone should show that person that commented about the stepmother a picture of the "grieving" widow when she got away from "all the drama"

I know everybody grieves differently but I don't think I'd be smiling for pictures or getting my hair done while my husband had only been in the ground for two weeks! jmo

[Hawk]

Maybe someone should show that person that commented about the stepmother a picture of the "grieving" widow when she got away from "all the drama"

I know everybody grieves differently but I don't think I'd be smiling for pictures or getting my hair done while my husband had only been in the ground for two weeks! jmo

But please remember that Tiffany is still pretty much a youngster herself. Her whole life has been changed.

[GentleBreeze]

Maybe she just can't bring herself, either from immaturity or mourning, to do the right thing and support the youngster.
Do we really know that she hasn't visited him in jail?

All of the Romero family has been silent.

I think they are in mourning and are devastated. I cannot begin to fathom the tragic situation the Romeros find themselves in or how they continue to handle it on a daily basis.

imo

[bkwits]

'Messed up case'. Absolutely agree. Who does Melnick answer to? As to the stepmother, as far as I'm aware she's been nowhere near the child since the murders. If I'm wrong, then please correct me. So she's 24, or 22, or 20. She's the 'supposed' adult. Yes, I understand she would have been in shock at her husband's death. But this is an 8 year old. An 8 year old. You don't just let police interrogate an 8 year old.

I don't know if that's true about Melnick not being welcome at Romero's funeral. If it is true, then I would think it says a lot about how people in St John's view this excellent homicide investigation.


IIRC, it was stated by the defense attorneys that Tiffany asked to be with CR when he was questioned, as did the grandparents. LE turned them down and would not let any of them be in the room. Leroy, the granddad asked that a psychologist be present. He was turned down. The blame is squarely on LE, not on the family, in this case. IMO

[Hawk]

I have a legal question. In the absence of the biological mother who is the boy's next of kin? Liz, Leroy, Ms. Bloomfield's mother, or father? What I mean is; who had the authority to grant LE an interview with the boy in the first place. Not Tiffany, right? She had no legal right to the boy at all. Why did LE seek her permission? Grandpa had already said no.

Just wondering. In case it should get that far in court.

[Cherishlove]

But please remember that Tiffany is still pretty much a youngster herself. Her whole life has been changed.I don't care how old she is she should be there for this boy.

[Hawk]

I don't care how old she is she should be there for this boy.

It's hard to say when we aren't in her shoes. Or even know what she knows.

[Details]

I'm not ready to condemn her either. I don't know what state their marriage was in - she seems very different than a grieving wife - maybe they were on the path to a breakup anyway - doesn't make her a bad person. And while marrying the father made her the boy's stepmother - that's not the same connection as being the boy's mother, or being his stepmother for a long time. It was fairly short, and she may not know what to think yet about all of this.

[Hawk]

Right. Who would?

[Good_Gawd]

Maybe someone should show that person that commented about the stepmother a picture of the "grieving" widow when she got away from "all the drama"

I know everybody grieves differently but I don't think I'd be smiling for pictures or getting my hair done while my husband had only been in the ground for two weeks! jmo
Grieving Widow my :cursing:
http://axtonromero.blogspot.com/2008/11/tiffany-romero-in-town.html

[Good_Gawd]

I'm not ready to condemn her either. I don't know what state their marriage was in - she seems very different than a grieving wife - maybe they were on the path to a breakup anyway - doesn't make her a bad person. And while marrying the father made her the boy's stepmother - that's not the same connection as being the boy's mother, or being his stepmother for a long time. It was fairly short, and she may not know what to think yet about all of this.

A breakup? They were married about 2 months before the crime.

http://ktar.net/blogs/dankarlo/2008/11/21/vince-and-tiffany-wedding-photos/

[Hawk]

Grieving Widow my :cursing:
http://axtonromero.blogspot.com/2008/11/tiffany-romero-in-town.html

That site has been out there for nearly two months. It doesn't prove anything. You don't know how you would react in a similar situation. Not for sure.

[Good_Gawd]

I don't care how old she is she should be there for this boy.

I Agree with you!

[Hawk]

A breakup? They were married about 2 months before the crime.

http://ktar.net/blogs/dankarlo/2008/11/21/vince-and-tiffany-wedding-photos/


They lived together for at least four years before the wedding.

[Cherishlove]

Grieving Widow my :cursing:
http://axtonromero.blogspot.com/2008/11/tiffany-romero-in-town.htmlWhy would they even post that?? Saying she went out and partied??? That is just crazy.

[Good_Gawd]

That site has been out there for nearly two months. It doesn't prove anything. You don't know how you would react in a similar situation. Not for sure.
Those photos are dated less than 3 weeks after her husband of 2 months was killed. Did you read it? They went to parties for Gods sake!

I know myself pretty well thank you. I would not be out at parties.

[Details]

A breakup? They were married about 2 months before the crime.

http://ktar.net/blogs/dankarlo/2008/11/21/vince-and-tiffany-wedding-photos/A breakup can happen at any time - the reality of being married may have shown that this indeed was not the man for her - we quite simply do not know. Marriages do fail, sometimes right out of the gate.

I'm not saying I know anything of their situation - but she's out partying, able to be in the house where her husband was murdered, and not doing much with his little boy - there are many possible explanations for this - one of them is that she and he were on a path to breaking up. Another is just that she's a very controlled person who can switch states rapidly.

In any case - after that bit of time, with the little boy being accused of murder, all this confusing stuff, it'd make some sense she wouldn't quite know where to stand with him.

[Good_Gawd]

They lived together for at least four years before the wedding.

And? :confused:

[Details]

That site has been out there for nearly two months. It doesn't prove anything. You don't know how you would react in a similar situation. Not for sure.I know for sure - I wouldn't be out partying.




But I can say that for sure only because I don't drink, hate cigarette smoke, noise, crowds, drunk strangers, and parties! :tonguewag:

For her - I don't know.

[Hawk]

Those photos are dated less than 3 weeks after her husband of 2 months was killed. Did you read it? They went to parties for Gods sake!

I know myself pretty well thank you. I would not be out at parties.

Thinking you know yourself and then actually facing real tragedy in your life is an awakening. The former is easy. The latter is impossible to prepare for.

[Good_Gawd]

Thinking you know yourself and then actually facing real tragedy in your life is an awakening. The former is easy. The latter is impossible to prepare for.

I have faced tragedy. I know how I react. I didn't go out and party. I know people react differently, but this girl is out having a good time after her husbands brains were spattered on the wall in the house she had no problem going back to live in Nov. 10th, 5 days after ALL THE BLOOD. (as LE put it)

[Good_Gawd]

I have to agree with all of you. No, I can't say how someone else will deal with tragedy. No, I don't believe a woman who's just lost her husband with her stepson accused of the murder and locked up should be out partying.:lol:

She had to get away from the drama. :rolleyes:

[Hawk]

Merciless attacks on young Mrs. Romero isn't going to get the boy out of jail, nor prove that she was party to the murders. But if it somehow makes you feel better about yourself, it's your post.

[Details]

IMO - there are two true statements here being treated as contradictions. They don't contradict.

True statement 1: You don't know how you will act in grief until it happens, there are many different ways people show their grief, handle grief.

True statement 2: Some behaviors do show and prove a lack of grief, inappropriate actions, that do indeed indicate a problem.


Both of these are true. There are many ways people grieving act - but there are also some ways no grieving person would act. I don't have much to say on this case - but these are not contradicting statements - both are true.

[Good_Gawd]

Merciless attacks on young Mrs. Romero isn't going to get the boy out of jail, nor prove that she was party to the murders. But if it somehow makes you feel better about yourself, it's your post.

That's right. I can point my finger at her too.
I don't believe in spanking my own children, the woman beat a child that was not even her own. I have names for people like her. I also think she should have been arrested for child endangerment. imo

[Hawk]

I have faced tragedy. I know how I react. I didn't go out and party. I know people react differently, but this girl is out having a good time after her husbands brains were spattered on the wall in the house she had no problem going back to live in Nov. 10th, 5 days after ALL THE BLOOD. (as LE put it)

I'm sorry. I didn't mean you personally, I mean people in general.

[Crispy]

Can anyone tell me if the stepmother is still living in the murder house or has she moved out?


The only mention I have heard is someone commenting on an article that she took off her ring, changed back to her maiden name and left St. Johns. jmo

[GentleBreeze]

That site has been out there for nearly two months. It doesn't prove anything. You don't know how you would react in a similar situation. Not for sure.

Right and I don't believe those pictures of Tiffany were taken when she went to stay with them. She only seems to have her engagement ring on in the pictures and I highly doubt she would have been in a tank top in November.

imoo

[Good_Gawd]

The only mention I have heard is someone commenting on an article that she took off her ring, changed back to her maiden name and left St. Johns. jmo

She has been living there. It was on the news. They showed faint blood still on the porch. SICK! That was December.

[Good_Gawd]

Right and I don't believe those pictures of Tiffany were taken when she went to stay with them. She only seems to have her engagement ring on in the pictures and I highly doubt she would have been in a tank top in November.

imoo
:lol::lol::lol:
The photos were auto dated. Nov 24th 2008

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_uW2A0qBmToo/SSrxxZLx4nI/AAAAAAAAAGY/OH0kCD2xstc/s1600-h/DSC01570.JPG

[Hawk]

That's right. I can point my finger at her too.
I don't believe in spanking my own children, the woman beat a child that was not even her own. I have names for people like her. I also think she should have been arrested for child endangerment. imo

Child endangerment is a separate issue entirely. I agree. She should have picked the boy up before she went shopping and to NAPA. She knew he was home alone.

[Cherishlove]

Why would she have it posted that she went out and partied, that is messed up.

[Good_Gawd]

Child endangerment is a separate issue entirely. I agree. She should have picked the boy up before she went shopping and to NAPA. She knew he was home alone.

Yes, home alone with guns and ammo everywhere. Nothing locked up. She did not care about the child. She was to be home at 5pm for him or so he thought. He called her at 5:12. What was she doing????

[shelby77]

'Messed up case'. Absolutely agree. Who does Melnick answer to? As to the stepmother, as far as I'm aware she's been nowhere near the child since the murders. If I'm wrong, then please correct me. So she's 24, or 22, or 20. She's the 'supposed' adult. Yes, I understand she would have been in shock at her husband's death. But this is an 8 year old. An 8 year old. You don't just let police interrogate an 8 year old.

I don't know if that's true about Melnick not being welcome at Romero's funeral. If it is true, then I would think it says a lot about how people in St John's view this excellent homicide investigation.

Actually Tiffany was born in June of 78, so that would make her 30, not 20, 22 or 24. Old enough to know better and be there for the boy who supposedly cared for her enough to call her mom. IMO

[Hawk]

Yes, home alone with guns and ammo everywhere. Nothing locked up. She did not care about the child. She was to be home at 5pm for him or so he thought. He called her at 5:12. What was she doing????

What do you think she was doing? Her alibi is pretty tight. And no one saw her at home.

[Good_Gawd]

What do you think she was doing? Her alibi is pretty tight. And no one saw her at home.

No one saw anything. Does not mean she wasn't there. She could have parked a block away.

[GentleBreeze]

Yes, home alone with guns and ammo everywhere. Nothing locked up. She did not care about the child. She was to be home at 5pm for him or so he thought. He called her at 5:12. What was she doing????

Why would she have to be home for him by 5:00 pm? His father came in from work before then.:confused:

imoo

[Hawk]

Actually Tiffany was born in June of 78, so that would make her 30, not 20, 22 or 24. Old enough to know better and be there for the boy who supposedly cared for her enough to call her mom. IMO

That's right 21 Jun 78. That's still young to me. My kids are all older than that. I guess everything is relative. You can still be emotionally detached and immature at 30.
Sorry GMR32. I was too slow again.

[ChildsVOICE]

All this talk about wounds and rounds has made me dizzy. So I decided to write it up as follows. I know some of it is guesswork, but it would follow that the shells inside were from Vince and the shells outside or in or near the doorway would be from Tim. Now, if we could try to match up the appropriate shells to the appropriate wounds. Could these have been done by a single chipmunk? How about a single Mossburg. How about a single shooter period-or could more than one shooter be involved.

VINCENT ROMERO AUTOPSY
WOUND #1-Romero sustained an entry wound to the left arm above the elbow, the round passed through the arm creating an exit wound on the inside ofthe arm in the bicep. The round then struck a glancing blow to the ribcage without penetrating the body. This bullet was recovered inside the clothing.
WOUND #2-The next wound noted to Romero was a bullet wound to the head. A round struck him in the hard hat, penetrating the hat and entering the skull. The round then fragmented inside the skull, damaging the brain tissues. Dr. Porterfield described this as "an immediately incapacitating injury" when asked by myself and Deputy Watkins.
WOUND #3-A second bullet struck Romero in the left side ofthe head above the left ear. This round also fragmented and spread throughout the brain tissues. Fragments of these two rounds were recovered from
within the skull.
WOUND #4-The fourth round struck Romero in the back, near the center ofthe right shoulder blade. The round
traveled at a downward angle passing through the organs in the chest and coming to rest in the abdomen.
This round was recovered by the pathologist.

SHELL A [I]F-3rd step staircase-2nd stairwell VINCE
SHELL B [I]U-4th step-2nd stairwell VINCE
SHELL C [I]V-hallway 2nd floor VINCE
SHELL D [I]next to V?-2nd floor VINCE

TIMOTHY ROMANS AUTOPSY
WOUND #1-Romans' was shot once through the right arm creating an entry wound on the top of the right forearm. This round traveled through the arm creating an exit wound on the inside top ofthe forearm. This round then struck Romans' in the ribs, just below the right armpit creating a second entry wound before stopping in the abdomen.
WOUND #2-The second bullet wound struck Romans' in the chest. The bullet struck a marker that was clipped inside Romans' jacket, then entered his chest making a single hole to the right of center in his chest.
WOUND #3-A third bullet struck Romans' in the chest approximately 3-4 inches to the left of the second wound, resulting in a single entry wound. Both bullets were recovered from the abdomen.
WOUND #4-A fourth round struck Romans' in the back of the head. This wound was a "crease" or a gouge across the back ofRomans' head, with no entry or exit wounds. It is possible that this round also made the hole in the security door. This bullet was not recovered.
WOUND #5-The fifth wound noted was a single entry wound from a single gunshot that struck Romans on the
back of the head, on the right side. This round fragmented inside the head.
WOUND #6-A sixth wound was observed in
Romans' head. This round was discharged at close range resulting in tearing ofthe skin at the entry wound, . and resulting in what was described as a "keyhole" wound. This round fragmented inside the skull. Fragments from these ro~ds were recovered from inside the head.

SHELL A [O]X-patio front porch TIM
SHELL B [O]T-patio front porch TIM
SHELL C [O/I]?-front floor mat TIM
SHELL D [O/I]?-between front door/door frame TIM
SHELL E [I]E-2nd step staircase TIM
SHELL F [O/I]?-behind front door TIM

Anybody notice BOTH men were shot on THREE SIDES, each?

VR--front and back AND left side
TR--front and back AND right side

[Hawk]

No one saw anything. Does not mean she wasn't there. She could have parked a block away.

Good point. But what did she do then?

[Good_Gawd]

Good point. But what did she do then?

Jumped in the white car, they took her to her car and she drove to the house.

How's that? :lol:

[bkwits]

Thanks for clearing that up. How could LE refuse to allow any family members to be present during the child' interrogation? That in itself is illegal, surely. What an excellent homicide investigation.:thumbdown:

Chicago LE did the same thing in the Ryan Harris murder case. They interrogated two little boys, 7 and 8 y.o., and obtained false confessions. The grandmother of one boy was outside the door or the room asking to go in. No one was there for those little boys either. Floyd Durr, a serial rapist, was later convicted of the rape and murder.

[Hawk]

Jumped in the white car, they took her to her car and she drove to the house.

How's that? :lol:

That's a pretty good start, in my opinion.

[Good_Gawd]

Anybody notice BOTH men were shot on THREE SIDES, each?

VR--front and back AND left side
TR--front and back AND right side

When I saw that on the video, I knew it was a very experienced shooter. imo

[Hawk]

Anybody notice BOTH men were shot on THREE SIDES, each?

VR--front and back AND left side
TR--front and back AND right side

I think we have to remember that the shot numbers don't necessarily indicate the firing order. I guess the sequence comes with the expert witnesses.
As far as VR being shot from three sides that may be misleading. The first head shot above the ear, probably caused him to fall (face down) and the three subsequent shots were fired from the same spot at the top of the landing (including the back and arm wounds).
Mr. Romans wounds all came from approximately the same location outside. His arm wound could have been frontal. His back (of the head) wounds were suffered after he collapsed on the porch.
None of these shots required a skilled marksman. The distance was very short for rifle shots. But it did require persistent determination of the shooter.

Just my opinion.
If we were privy to the actual autopsy, rather than just Sgt. Guinn's report we would, of course, have more information.

[muska]

Maybe she just can't bring herself, either from immaturity or mourning, to do the right thing and support the youngster.
Do we really know that she hasn't visited him in jail?

Whatever I've seen suggests she's visited little or not at all. And Mr. Brewer did just ask for permission for the grandmother,not Tiffany, to visit everyday while the boy's mom was away.

[Hawk]

Whatever I've seen suggests she's visited little or not at all. And Mr. Brewer did just ask for permission for the grandmother,not Tiffany, to visit everyday while the boy's mom was away.

Maybe she hates the little fellow then. He'll be leaving with his mom after this thing is over anyway. I hope Liz and Leroy are visiting. I have no idea what Ms. Bloomfield's financial situation is. It may be a huge burden on her to be in St. Johns as often as she would like. Plus with her little girl needing attention.

[bkwits]

Why would she have to be home for him by 5:00 pm? His father came in from work before then.:confused:

imoo
\

Just to keep things straight. Tiff talked to VR before he left work and he told her they were going to do a job for someone right after work.

[Hawk]

They seemed to be very careless where bullets were left. I read they often were spilled on the floor. Doesn't sound like anyone would miss a few

Now that you mention that the .17 cal plastic ammo box in the photo looks like a collection of several different types of ammo. The ones pointing up look to have primers which would make them centerfire cartridges, not .22s or .17s (which are rimfire).
Is there another site that has this picture that can be downloaded and zoomed? The ones I've seen from Kpho TV won't allow you to copy, or save the photos.

[bkwits]

That's right 21 Jun 78. That's still young to me. My kids are all older than that. I guess everything is relative. You can still be emotionally detached and immature at 30.
Sorry GMR32. I was too slow again.

Now Hawk, a 30 year old should be mature enough to at least show some respect for her dead husband and the little child in jail. Getting her hair cut or styled is fine, but going to parties????

[Hawk]

Now Hawk, a 30 year old should be mature enough to at least show some respect for her dead husband and the little child in jail. Getting her hair cut or styled is fine, but going to parties????

Okay. I can see that. You're right.
I just don't like seeing her beat up on, and it doesn't implicate her in the murders. I feel sympathy for her.

[bkwits]

If the child murdered her husband, she has every right to whatever feelings she has about the boy right now.

If I was her, I'd want to see him because I'd want answers.


If she thinks he did it, shouldn't she feel at least a tiny bit responsible? I know I would feel guilty as he**.

[muska]

If the child murdered her husband, she has every right to whatever feelings she has about the boy right now.

If I was her, I'd want to see him because I'd want answers.

Maybe she already knows the answers and would rather not have them said aloud.

[bkwits]

I thought you claim the real killer drove away in the white car that LE never looked for>?:crying: You confuse me.


We are all throwing out possibliities, different scenarios to test them. IMO

[bkwits]

An experienced shooter, like a hit man, would have killed them with waaaaaaaaaaaaaa less shots.

The dad in the stairway with his back facing the shooter was like shooting fish in a barrel with an Uzi


With an Uzi? Are you comparing a .22 to an UZI?

[Hawk]

An experienced shooter, like a hit man, would have killed them with waaaaaaaaaaaaaa less shots.

The dad in the stairway with his back facing the shooter was like shooting fish in a barrel with an Uzi

A Beretta 390 12 gauge semi-auto shotgun with 3" '00' buckshot. Four rounds through the truck glass before either of them got out, from either side or from the back or front. Would take about three seconds and leave hamburger meat in the truck seats. (Not that an Uzi or AK-47 wouldn't do the job). I'm just partial to shotguns.

[Hawk]

We are all throwing out possibliities, different scenarios to test them. IMO

Yes. I think that's what we all want.

[bkwits]

A Beretta 390 12 gauge semi-auto shotgun with 3" '00' buckshot. Four rounds through the truck glass before either of them got out, from either side or from the back or front. Would take about three seconds and leave hamburger meat in the truck seats. (Not that an Uzi or AK-47 wouldn't do the job). I'm just partial to shotguns.

But wouldn't those guns make a lot more noise?

[Hawk]

But wouldn't those guns make a lot more noise?

They sure would. The wonderful sound of power.

[Hawk]

The element of surprise is often your strongest weapon.

[bkwits]

That's really not the point.

The point is these murders were not committed by anyone with expert skills. None were necessary.

If the killer was anyone else but the boy, they would have used a different gun, in a different location, at a different time. Especially if the killer knew the men and knew there were weapons in the truck and in the house IMO

Well, I don't necessarily buy that. How do we know what a killer would do? You only have to follow crime cases for awhile to know there is every manner of killers and killing, and for almost any reason.

I'm not ruling out the child or Tiffany, but I really don't think either one did it. I'm not ruling out a "hit man" just because they don't meet some standard of professional conduct or weapon use. I hear of the guys that will take out someone for an incredibly small amount of money. I think it was most likely a random act of robbery or someone with a grudge against Tim or both men. IMO

[Hawk]

Another thing to consider is if Mr. Romans HAD heard shots inside the house, grabbed his big-bore .45 ACP from his truck console then charged into the house ready to defend himself the shooters chance of success with a .22 would have dropped substantially. What rational person would take that chance?

[Cherishlove]

I don't feel the little boy did it at all, that is just too far fetched someone wanted these men dead and it wasn't a little boy.

[muska]

Well, I don't necessarily buy that. How do we know what a killer would do? You only have to follow crime cases for awhile to know there is every manner of killers and killing, and for almost any reason.

I'm not ruling out the child or Tiffany, but I really don't think either one did it. I'm not ruling out a "hit man" just because they don't meet some standard of professional conduct or weapon use. I hear of the guys that will take out someone for an incredibly small amount of money. I think it was most likely a random act of robbery or someone with a grudge against Tim or both men. IMO

I'm with you! Very possibly something random or someone too angry to think clearly. It's not as though killers always do things in the ways that make the most sense. On the contrary, that's probably rather unusual.

It does seem it would be nice to give a third grader a bit more of the benefit of the doubt. Why not consider every other possible scenario before convicting a little child?

[Hawk]

Well, I don't necessarily buy that. How do we know what a killer would do? You only have to follow crime cases for awhile to know there is every manner of killers and killing, and for almost any reason.
IMO

We certainly don't know what a killer would do. That's true.
But collectively on this board we've been trying to figure out how, and who, did the crime, using all the available information. The puzzle pieces may never fit together perfectly but some of the edges have to at least match. I haven't heard a convincing alternate scenario yet that explains, in detail, how anyone else could have pulled this off. And gotten away.
I hope to soon.

[Hawk]

I'm with you! Very possibly something random or someone too angry to think clearly. It's not as though killers always do things in the ways that make the most sense. On the contrary, that's probably rather unusual.

It does seem it would be nice to give a third grader a bit more of the benefit of the doubt. Why not consider every other possible scenario before convicting a little child?

By all means! Let's do.

[Good_Gawd]

It's my opinion, it's far fetched that anyone besides the boy was the shooter.Then with the DA and a few goober cops that makes about 5 of you left then.
:rolleyes:
Even the Roman's say they don't think the boy did it anymore.