1-12 - 1/15

[ChildsVOICE]

Definition & other:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latchkey_kid

American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psyc.:

http://aacap.org/page.ww?name=Home+Alone+Children&section=Facts+for+Families

[GentleBreeze]

That stupid inTerrorgator rushed to a confession, wasn't it her first day?
Got a confession first time out!!

First day as a Detective. She has been on the force about two years iirc, But CA is the one that got most of the confession.

[Good_Gawd]

Oh I do think he had time to kill Romans. I just don't believe he had anytime to do anything else but leave the home once that happened and get to his friend's house after then.

Even he said in his interview that his gun is easy to use. It would just take seconds to eject the spent casing and reload and fire again.

imoo
Are you kidding me? His little legs couldn't fit that timeline. He had time to see them and run. He's a lucky little boy.

[Jacobtk]

Childs Voice, I do agree with you that children of this age do not know time intervals exactly. I have five children and 11 grandchildren myself. But it really doesn't matter how much time he says he stayed there. There just wasn't enough time for him to stay at all imo.

The point I was trying to make is Romans was killed around 5:00 pm. The 911 call came in at 5:03 pm. Just time enough for the boy to leave after Romans had been shot and go to his friend's house and the father had to come home. Then the father went to the Romero home and saw Romans' body laying there and THEN called 911.

imo

All it implies is that the boy could have been present at or right as the shootings ended. The latter would be consistent with his initial statement that as he came home he saw a white car speed away. This would give him enough time to see Romans, go inside and see his father, open the dog's cage and then run over to the neighbor's house. Because of his age, his sense of time cannot be trusted. He may think he sat there when all he might have actually done is tap his father and then leave.

This is why he should have been questioned in a safe environment and asked questions that allowed him to explain what he saw (what happened when you went inside? what did you see? how did you feel? what did you do? what happened next?). As it is now, there is no way to accurately know what the boy did or did not see because of the officers' inept interrogation.

[GentleBreeze]

Definition & other:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latchkey_kid

American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psyc.:

http://aacap.org/page.ww?name=Home+Alone+Children&section=Facts+for+Families


http://www.latchkey-kids.com/latchkey-kids-age-limits.htm


Latchkey Children Age Restrictions By State

[Good_Gawd]

Definition & other:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latchkey_kid

American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psyc.:

http://aacap.org/page.ww?name=Home+Alone+Children&section=Facts+for+Families

Did they have a plan for the child to get out if there was ever a fire? Was he taught anything about safety?

[Hawk]

First day as a Detective. She has been on the force about two years iirc, But CA is the one that got most of the confession.

She didn't get a confession. She coerced a small child into saying what she needed to hear to make her appear as some sort of super cop. She lost an election and probably won't ever win one. She's a dud.

[Perplexed1]

Are you kidding me? His little legs couldn't fit that timeline. He had time to see them and run. He's a lucky little boy.

Obvious to us only, I guess. :sad:

[Hawk]

Are you kidding me? His little legs couldn't fit that timeline. He had time to see them and run. He's a lucky little boy.

He's an awfully unlucky little boy. Whichever way it turns out.

[muska]

Oh I do think he had time to kill Romans. I just don't believe he had anytime to do anything else but leave the home once that happened and get to his friend's house after then.

Even he said in his interview that his gun is easy to use. It would just take seconds to eject the spent casing and reload and fire again.

imoo

Or Romans was dead and he only had time to run through the house quickly, spend a minute or two - no more - and leave.

[Perplexed1]

She didn't get a confession. He coerced a small child into saying what she needed to hear to make her appear as some sort of super cop. She lost an election and probably won't ever win one. She's a dud.

Exactly! Sorry :blushing:

[Jacobtk]

The pup would not have been covering her ears and docile. Watching TV and actually raising dogs is a far different experience. If she was accustomed to gunfire she would have been eager to join the hunt. And extremely agitated not to be party to the hunt.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be rude.

I have two dogs, so I am familiar with how they will behave. It would depend on whether they allowed her to participate. If they just brought her along, then she likely would not react. Even if they did allow her to engage in the hunt, that does not mean the dog would lose it if she was not let out of the cage. She may have tried to get out of the cage, but that does not mean she would have barked and made a lot of noise. It would depend on the dog's general behavior, which none of us knows.

[Good_Gawd]

Obvious to us only, I guess. :sad:

He had an angel on his shoulder, or he would have been dead too. There is a reason for everything, I fully believe that.

[Hawk]

Where the heck is Justice Dawg?

[Details]

Childs Voice, I do agree with you that children of this age do not know time intervals exactly. I have five children and 11 grandchildren myself. But it really doesn't matter how much time he says he stayed there. There just wasn't enough time for him to stay at all imo.

The point I was trying to make is Romans was killed around 5:00 pm. The 911 call came in at 5:03 pm. Just time enough for the boy to leave after Romans had been shot and go to his friend's house and the father had to come home. Then the father went to the Romero home and saw Romans' body laying there and THEN called 911.

imoAdults don't know the time exactly either - the people heard shots around 5ish - that can be 10-15 minutes or more on either side of 5:00. To fit the cell phone timeline - which I'm not sure is accurate - you have to figure that Romans was killed several minutes before 5:00 - unless he hung up on his wife, and dithered in the driveway for many minutes.

Children know time even less exactly, and worse still when there's some traumatic event. 30 seconds could easily feel like 30 minutes to an adult in that situation.

It's a tight timeline no matter what. Whether the boy arrived home right after the killers, or was the killer - it's a very small difference in time. 11 minutes, between cell phone and 911 is the timeline. Tim was likely dead a mere minute or two into that timeline, if not before. That does leave enough time for the killer to flee just as the boy gets home, and a minute would be long enough for him to walk in, see Tim, Dad, stay a few moments beside Dad, then run across the street. There's nothing in this timeline that says which possibility it must be.

[GentleBreeze]

All it implies is that the boy could have been present at or right as the shootings ended. The latter would be consistent with his initial statement that as he came home he saw a white car speed away. This would give him enough time to see Romans, go inside and see his father, open the dog's cage and then run over to the neighbor's house. Because of his age, his sense of time cannot be trusted. He may think he sat there when all he might have actually done is tap his father and then leave.

This is why he should have been questioned in a safe environment and asked questions that allowed him to explain what he saw (what happened when you went inside? what did you see? how did you feel? what did you do? what happened next?). As it is now, there is no way to accurately know what the boy did or did not see because of the officers' inept interrogation.


But it would not be consistent with what he said about seeing Tim and then going in and finding his father and other things he said he did while in the home. The officers weren't leading him then but asking him what he saw and did.

It had to take some time for him to run to the neighbor and tell the other boy what happened........then in turn the other boy had to call his father and tell him and his father had to come home and go over to the Romero home to see Romans body for himself before he called 911.

There just isn't anytime for him to have done any of those things, no matter what he said he did in the home or the amount he said he spent doing them.

[Hawk]

I have two dogs, so I am familiar with how they will behave. It would depend on whether they allowed her to participate. If they just brought her along, then she likely would not react. Even if they did allow her to engage in the hunt, that does not mean the dog would lose it if she was not let out of the cage. She may have tried to get out of the cage, but that does not mean she would have barked and made a lot of noise. It would depend on the dog's general behavior, which none of us knows.

Then you've never had outdoor boxers. Or Retrievers, or beagles, etc.......

[Perplexed1]

He had an angel on his shoulder, or he would have been dead too. There is a reason for everything, I fully believe that.

We must pray that truth comes to light. :smile:

[Details]

When working on the timeline, you must also work out whether or not a little 8 year old boy can clamber over his father's prone body on the stairs while not leaving or picking up any obvious forensic evidence (little boy footprint, or daddy's blood smeared on the clothes), to fire from the other side of the stairs. I've never seen how that was supposed to be remotely physically possible. I've seen some very active, coordinated children - but to jump 5 feet downstairs without leaving a trace, I don't see as possible until they get long gangly teenager legs at the earliest.

[GentleBreeze]

Adults don't know the time exactly either - the people heard shots around 5ish - that can be 10-15 minutes or more on either side of 5:00. To fit the cell phone timeline - which I'm not sure is accurate - you have to figure that Romans was killed several minutes before 5:00 - unless he hung up on his wife, and dithered in the driveway for many minutes.

Children know time even less exactly, and worse still when there's some traumatic event. 30 seconds could easily feel like 30 minutes to an adult in that situation.

It's a tight timeline no matter what. Whether the boy arrived home right after the killers, or was the killer - it's a very small difference in time. 11 minutes, between cell phone and 911 is the timeline. Tim was likely dead a mere minute or two into that timeline, if not before. That does leave enough time for the killer to flee just as the boy gets home, and a minute would be long enough for him to walk in, see Tim, Dad, stay a few moments beside Dad, then run across the street. There's nothing in this timeline that says which possibility it must be.

It can't be off by much at all in this case. The 911 call was already placed at 5:03. Tim was alive at 4:55 so I think the 5:00 pm time is extremely close and accurate.

imoo

[Perplexed1]

When working on the timeline, you must also work out whether or not a little 8 year old boy can clamber over his father's prone body on the stairs while not leaving or picking up any obvious forensic evidence (little boy footprint, or daddy's blood smeared on the clothes), to fire from the other side of the stairs. I've never seen how that was supposed to be remotely physically possible. I've seen some very active, coordinated children - but to jump 5 feet downstairs without leaving a trace, I don't see as possible until they get long gangly teenager legs at the earliest.

Surely this is obvious to the judge and defense. :mellow:

[GentleBreeze]

When working on the timeline, you must also work out whether or not a little 8 year old boy can clamber over his father's prone body on the stairs while not leaving or picking up any obvious forensic evidence (little boy footprint, or daddy's blood smeared on the clothes), to fire from the other side of the stairs. I've never seen how that was supposed to be remotely physically possible. I've seen some very active, coordinated children - but to jump 5 feet downstairs without leaving a trace, I don't see as possible until they get long gangly teenager legs at the earliest.

I think there was room for him to manuver around his father's body. His feet are small imo.

We dont know if he left traces or not. The DA did ask for the boy's footprints, among other things and they already had his shoes.

imoo

[Good_Gawd]

Then you've never had outdoor boxers. Or Retrievers, or beagles, etc.......

I had a beagle once. I wanted to mute it. I gave it away.

[Hawk]

When working on the timeline, you must also work out whether or not a little 8 year old boy can clamber over his father's prone body on the stairs while not leaving or picking up any obvious forensic evidence (little boy footprint, or daddy's blood smeared on the clothes), to fire from the other side of the stairs. I've never seen how that was supposed to be remotely physically possible. I've seen some very active, coordinated children - but to jump 5 feet downstairs without leaving a trace, I don't see as possible until they get long gangly teenager legs at the earliest.

It's easy. Most stairs are 36" wide (building code). Few men, if any, are 36" wide at the shoulders. He didn't have to step over. He could simply step around.
Measure the step width in your home.

[ChildsVOICE]

Because if I am not mistaken that was the time listed in the court documents.

imoo

5:03 or actually 17:03 is documented on the police documents under "Incident reported: 17:03"

for one see
Chief Roy Melnick's report:

http://www.azcentral.com/ic/pdf/1126stjohnsuppreport.pdf
(The chief's wouldn't let me pull it up just now??? Says damaged etc.)

And Officer Neckel's

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/neckel2.pdf
(This one did allow me to pull it up.)

There are many other reports that document the Incident "Date and Time as Weds., 11/05/08 at 17:03"

See "links to case info, police reports, news reports" blog on
http://www.myspace.com/childsHOPEandVOICE for more links to police reports.

[Details]

But it would not be consistent with what he said about seeing Tim and then going in and finding his father and other things he said he did while in the home. The officers weren't leading him then but asking him what he saw and did. ...They were asking him for a new story, new details after he'd already told the story. Embellishment and/or merging what happened that day with other days he got home alone is not unusual nor a surprise.


If he's making up a story about 30 minutes, then there's no reason to believe any different about making up a story about shooting the men - especially when neither fits the facts of the case. His story about 30 minutes is obviously impossible - but possible if we consider a child in shock's grasp of time. His story about shooting the men twice and leaving the gun in the closet is impossible too, given that they were actually shot 4 and 6 times, and the gun was on the dog crate.

[Perplexed1]

It's easy. Most stairs are 36" wide (building code). Few men, if any are 36" wide at the shoulders. He didn't have to step over. He could simply step around.
Measure the step width in your home.

I assume he didn't fall completly straight in center of steps. Six feet of body and legs.

[muska]

Where the heck is Justice Dawg?

I have been wondering that too!!!

[Hawk]

I had a beagle once. I wanted to mute it. I gave it away.

True hunting dogs, like beagles, must hunt or they become uncontrollable. Boxers are working dogs and thrive on activity as well.

[suzanne]

Childs Voice, I do agree with you that children of this age do not know time intervals exactly. I have five children and 11 grandchildren myself. But it really doesn't matter how much time he says he stayed there. There just wasn't enough time for him to stay at all imo.

The point I was trying to make is Romans was killed around 5:00 pm. The 911 call came in at 5:03 pm. Just time enough for the boy to leave after Romans had been shot and go to his friend's house and the father had to come home. Then the father went to the Romero home and saw Romans' body laying there and THEN called 911.

imo

There is no way in H**L All this all could have happened in under 11? minutes.How long did it even take for the father to get home?Then call 911?Then for the police to get there.None of this adds up.None of it.

[ChildsVOICE]

It's easy. Most stairs are 36" wide (building code). Few men, if any, are 36" wide at the shoulders. He didn't have to step over. He could simply step around.
Measure the step width in your home.

These stairs look more narrow than most.

Also, don't forget to add the outstretched arms &/or legs. Plus pool of blood. All these parts would need to be manuvered.

Also, the child would have had to be carrying a long rifle and a box of ammunition while mounting blocked stairs.

I didn't think he could do it going down the stairs. Now, I certainly, do not believe he could do it going up the stairs against gravity.

[Hawk]

I assume he didn't fall completly straight in center of steps. Six feet of body and legs.

I haven't seen the photos, but left, right, or center of the stairs there would be ample room to step around and up or down.
The 5'11" frame was vertical to the stairs. Not cross-wise.

[Perplexed1]

i'm really shocked the main stream media's not talking about this everyday... :cursing:

Nancy Grace needs to jump on this story!:mad:

[Perplexed1]

There is no way in H**L All this all could have happened in under 11? minutes.How long did it even take for the father to get home?Then call 911?Then for the police to get there.None of this adds up.None of it.

AMEN!:thumbsup:

[GentleBreeze]

They were asking him for a new story, new details after he'd already told the story. Embellishment and/or merging what happened that day with other days he got home alone is not unusual nor a surprise.


If he's making up a story about 30 minutes, then there's no reason to believe any different about making up a story about shooting the men - especially when neither fits the facts of the case. His story about 30 minutes is obviously impossible - but possible if we consider a child in shock's grasp of time. His story about shooting the men twice and leaving the gun in the closet is impossible too, given that they were actually shot 4 and 6 times, and the gun was on the dog crate.

I was talking about when he first told his story about seeing Tim and going in. I thought it was his first story that everyone believes?

Even that has no ring of truth to it. Not any of it including walking around the block and he first says nine times and then increases it to 10 or 11 times, irrc.

For if he saw Tim already shot and down on the porch then all the time he would have is to leave the property once Romans was shot and go to his friends and wait until the other boy's father called 911 at 5.03 pm.

imoo

[ChildsVOICE]

There is no way in H**L All this all could have happened in under 11? minutes.How long did it even take for the father to get home?Then call 911?Then for the police to get there.None of this adds up.None of it.

I wonder if the teen neighbor's father was already on his way home and might have been close to the home when the teen called him? or I wondered if he may have just been at another neighbor's home working in a garage or such? to be soo close to be able to arrive home so quickly.

Don't forget ...after checking things out at the Romero house, calling 911 the neighbors let the boy use their cell phone to call the step mother at 5:12 and again at 5:14 when there was no answer the first time.

[Hawk]

These stairs look more narrow than most.

Also, don't forget to add the outstretched arms &/or legs. Plus pool of blood. All these parts would need to be manuvered.

Also, the child would have had to be carrying a long rifle and a box of ammunition while mounting blocked stairs.

I didn't think he could do it going down the stairs. Now, I certainly, do not believe he could do it going up the stairs against gravity.

The rifle is 30" long and weighs only 2.5 pounds. The cartridges have no noticeable wight at all. Even a box full.

[Details]

It's easy. Most stairs are 36" wide (building code). Few men, if any, are 36" wide at the shoulders. He didn't have to step over. He could simply step around.
Measure the step width in your home.If my hubby were sprawled on the steps, I know I couldn't get over or around him easily - and I'm tall and have long legs. And doing so when you haven't put enough shots in to be sure he's dead, as indicated by the additional shot from the other side? No way does an 8 year old have the nerves for that - Daddies have superhuman strength - to an 8 year old - to do this when he's not yet dead - an adult might do that, searching the house for more witnesses, or running down to the door to get Tim - not a child.

[Details]

The rifle is 30" long and weighs only 2.5 pounds. The cartridges have no noticeable wight at all. Even a box full.Both of those amount to full hands. That is a serious obstacle.

[muska]

They were asking him for a new story, new details after he'd already told the story. Embellishment and/or merging what happened that day with other days he got home alone is not unusual nor a surprise.


If he's making up a story about 30 minutes, then there's no reason to believe any different about making up a story about shooting the men - especially when neither fits the facts of the case. His story about 30 minutes is obviously impossible - but possible if we consider a child in shock's grasp of time. His story about shooting the men twice and leaving the gun in the closet is impossible too, given that they were actually shot 4 and 6 times, and the gun was on the dog crate.

Great points!

[GentleBreeze]

I haven't seen the photos, but left, right, or center of the stairs there would be ample room to step around and up or down.
The 5'11" frame was vertical to the stairs. Not cross-wise.

Right. I think he was vertical on the stairways. Why would he even be cross ways? They said he was found laying face down. I think he fell forward and collapsed vertically on the stairs.

imoo

[Hawk]

If my hubby were sprawled on the steps, I know I couldn't get over or around him easily - and I'm tall and have long legs. And doing so when you haven't put enough shots in to be sure he's dead, as indicated by the additional shot from the other side? No way does an 8 year old have the nerves for that - Daddies have superhuman strength - to an 8 year old - to do this when he's not yet dead - an adult might do that, searching the house for more witnesses, or running down to the door to get Tim - not a child.


Nerves, determination, guts, and revenge are the heart of this case.

[GentleBreeze]

Both of those amount to full hands. That is a serious obstacle.

Why? Neither the gun or the bullets are big.

imo

[Hawk]

Right. I think he was vertical on the stairways. Why would he even be cross ways? They said he was found laying face down. I think he fell forward and collapsed vertically on the stairs.

imoo

No question.

[Hawk]

Why? Neither the gun or the bullets are big.

imo

The issue is dexterity. Boys at this age don't have it. They are clumsy. Very clumsy.

[suzanne]

Also the little boy did not have all that time to do what he said that he cried for thirty minute ect....I feel if Nurse Ratched wasn't hounding the little boy and interrogating her he would not have lied to her and said what he thought she wanted to hear.

[ChildsVOICE]

The rifle is 30" long and weighs only 2.5 pounds. The cartridges have no noticeable wight at all. Even a box full.

Do you know what its like to get my kids to carry ANYTHING up the stairs? Kids don't like to carry things UP stairs. Trust me. This does not add up.

Lets talk about how can VR be shot from behind in the back (left arm grazing left side of head and one more in the back) AND have a bullet hole in the front of his hard hat from ABOVE the stairs?

Wouldn't that take two shooters? VR had to be in an upright position to receive the blow to the front of the hard hat.

How could someone shoot from below and behind, climb around him or over him, and go to the second story floor hallway and shoot him in the front of his hard hat? if he collasped before getting to the top step?

{I'm going over to pull the reports that state he was shot with 3-4 seconds between shots and all four shots took 16 seconds. Have to verify this info.}

View the AUTOPSY REPORTS:
http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/Autopsy-St-Johns-murder-victims-shot-in-the-head/gsb18gJlwkizzVprKFwW0A.cspx?p=Comments

[Details]

Why? Neither the gun or the bullets are big.

imoFull hands. That means he would not have a free hand, or maybe one free, one overencumbered (little boy hands here), as he tries to slip past his dad - no way to grab a stair rail.

Imagine your hubby on your stairs - tight stairs, wall on either side, not neatly laying, but sprawled however he was when shot, put some items in your hands, and imagine trying to go down the stairs past him. Then shrink your hands and legs to a child's size and imagine it.

I don't honestly know that I could do it.

[Perplexed1]

No question.

A man's shoulders are 24-30" across, walls on both sides of stairway.
Hard to manuver.

[Good_Gawd]

Nerves, determination, guts, and revenge are the heart of this case.

None of which an 8 yr old is capable of if you ask me.

[Details]

Nerves, determination, guts, and revenge are the heart of this case.None of which are shown to have been key characteristics of this child.

Revenge - nope - he talks fondly of his father, showed love towards him, and obedience, a good kid, by the neighbors. Determination - he was a sloppy kid, from what we've seen of his bedroom and his clothes. Nerves - a few questions from police and he's telling them whatever they want to hear, changing the story as they ask for a different detail. Guts - likewise.

[Details]

A man's shoulders are 24-30" across, walls on both sides of stairway.
Hard to manuver.Arms and legs sprawled however he fell.

[suzanne]

Nancy Grace needs to jump on this story!:mad:

Yes,She does.I agree and Casey's Anthony's thug looking DREAM TEAM needs to be for this little boy.

[GentleBreeze]

The issue is dexterity. Boys at this age don't have it. They are clumsy. Very clumsy.

I think it is according to the boy and the determination of the boy, not boys in general.

imoo

[Perplexed1]

None of which are shown to have been key characteristics of this child.

Revenge - nope - he talks fondly of his father, showed love towards him, and obedience, a good kid, by the neighbors. Determination - he was a sloppy kid, from what we've seen of his bedroom and his clothes. Nerves - a few questions from police and he's telling them whatever they want to hear, changing the story as they ask for a different detail. Guts - likewise.

Sounded sweet in interview. Not like a raging maniac!:sneaky:

[GentleBreeze]

None of which are shown to have been key characteristics of this child.

Revenge - nope - he talks fondly of his father, showed love towards him, and obedience, a good kid, by the neighbors. Determination - he was a sloppy kid, from what we've seen of his bedroom and his clothes. Nerves - a few questions from police and he's telling them whatever they want to hear, changing the story as they ask for a different detail. Guts - likewise.

I thought he said the first time he shot his father he was mad at him?

imo

[Perplexed1]

I thought he said the first time he shot his father he was mad at him?

imo

Coerced only

[Hawk]

Do you know what its like to get my kids to carry ANYTHING up the stairs? Kids don't like to carry things UP stairs. Trust me. This does not add up.

Lets talk about how can VR be shot from behind in the back (left arm grazing left side of head and one more in the back) AND have a bullet hole in the front of his hard hat from ABOVE the stairs?

Wouldn't that take two shooters? VR had to be in an upright position to receive the blow to the front of the hard hat.

How could someone shoot from below and behind, climb around him or over him, and go to the second story floor hallway and shoot him in the front of his hard hat? if he collasped before getting to the top step?

{I'm going over to pull the reports that state he was shot with 3-4 seconds between shots and all four shots took 16 seconds. Have to verify this info.}

View the AUTOPSY REPORTS:
http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/Autopsy-St-Johns-murder-victims-shot-in-the-head/gsb18gJlwkizzVprKFwW0A.cspx?p=Comments

My Southern upbringing won't allow me to dispute anything you say. You have done more to bring this case to light than all of the rest of us combined.
My thoughts and prayers are for young Romero.
I'm only making argumentative conversation and out of respect can not do that with you.

[GentleBreeze]

Arms and legs sprawled however he fell.

Have the documents stated VR arms and legs were sprawled. He would still have room to get around his father though, if so imo.

imoo

[ChildsVOICE]

I thought he said the first time he shot his father he was mad at him?

imo

The police officers had asked him previous questions like:

Do you ever get into trouble at home/with your parents?
How often?
When's the last time you were disciplined (or such) which lead to the spanking because of the forgotten paperwork?
Were you mad at your dad?
then more prodding
and more prodding
and more...
to the end result the boy tells them what they coached him into saying.

It doesn't take much to coach a child, even unintentionally.

Plus, the questions they had been asking were questions no child would be able to answer in a positive light.
All children think they are always in trouble with their parents or a parent.

[Perplexed1]

Have the documents stated VR arms and legs were sprawled. He would still have room to get around his father though, if so imo.

imoo

I read here or somwhere he fell on his arms, underneath him, legs would be sprawled some. Still there is only 6" on each side of body.

[GentleBreeze]

The police officers had asked him previous questions like:

Do you ever get into trouble at home/with your parents?
How often?
When's the last time you were disciplined (or such) which lead to the spanking because of the forgotten paperwork?
Were you mad at your dad?
then more prodding
and more prodding
and more...
to the end result the boy tells them what they coached him into saying.

It doesn't take much to coach a child, even unintentionally.

But the thing we don't know is he could have been telling the truth when he said that. In confessions there will be some outright lies and some half truths in it.

imo

[Hawk]

Have the documents stated VR arms and legs were sprawled. He would still have room to get around his father though, if so imo.

imoo

His arms were under his body (clutching his chest).

[GentleBreeze]

I read here or somwhere he fell on his arms, underneath him, legs would be sprawled some. Still there is only 6" on each side of body.

Thank you. Still room for a small foot to step imo.

imo

[Perplexed1]

I read here or somwhere he fell on his arms, underneath him, legs would be sprawled some. Still there is only 6" on each side of body.

Less if his shoulders are 30" across.

[GentleBreeze]

His arms were under his body (clutching his chest).

Thanks. What about Romans? Wasn't he face down too?

imoo

[Perplexed1]

Thank you. Still room for a small foot to step imo.

imo

3" each side, if shoulder span 30", and wall either side.

[Hawk]

Less if his shoulders are 30" across.

That would be a wide man.

[Perplexed1]

That would be a wide man.

My husbans shoulders are 24' across, and he's a smaller man. VR was a big guy.:sleep:

[Hawk]

Thanks. What about Romans? Wasn't he face down too?

imoo

He was. I think though that his arms were spread.

[muska]

His arms were under his body (clutching his chest).

or he simply put his hands out to break his fall and they ended up under him

[Perplexed1]

My husbans shoulders are 24' across, and he's a smaller man. VR was a big guy.:sleep:

Sorry, 24"

[Hawk]

None of which are shown to have been key characteristics of this child.

Revenge - nope - he talks fondly of his father, showed love towards him, and obedience, a good kid, by the neighbors. Determination - he was a sloppy kid, from what we've seen of his bedroom and his clothes. Nerves - a few questions from police and he's telling them whatever they want to hear, changing the story as they ask for a different detail. Guts - likewise.

Okay. Now your getting the spirit of the thing! Who had these things?

[GentleBreeze]

None of which are shown to have been key characteristics of this child.

Revenge - nope - he talks fondly of his father, showed love towards him, and obedience, a good kid, by the neighbors. Determination - he was a sloppy kid, from what we've seen of his bedroom and his clothes. Nerves - a few questions from police and he's telling them whatever they want to hear, changing the story as they ask for a different detail. Guts - likewise.

Also I don't find him al that obedient. He admitted that he played with the air rifle behind his father's back when he knew that he did not want him to do that and he said he walked around the block when his mother wasn't home.

So he seems to do things when he thinks he can get away with it and they wouldn't know about it.

imoo

[Hawk]

My husbans shoulders are 24' across, and he's a smaller man. VR was a big guy.:sleep:

No he wasn't. Look at the wedding photos. Please.
A man that would cover 36" steps would have to be an NFL lineman.

[Hawk]

Also I don't find him al that obedient. He admitted that he played with the air rifle behind his father's back when he knew that he did not want him to do that and he said he walked around the block when his mother wasn't home.

So he seems to do things when he thinks he can get away with it and they wouldn't know about it.

imoo

Who doesn't?

[Good_Gawd]

ChildVOICE, I just looked at your website and found this link
http://www.kpho.com/slideshow/18019101/detail.htmlindex.html?currentSlide=13&taf=pho
The steps look very narrow to me.

[GentleBreeze]

3" each side, if shoulder span 30", and wall either side.

He could have balanced using the wall and with his foot sideways he would have plenty of room. To hear him tell it he sat beside his father's body so he had to get by him to do that.

imoo

[Good_Gawd]

Okay. Now your getting the spirit of the thing! Who had these things?

Who?:ohmy:

[GentleBreeze]

Who doesn't?

I don't know. I know I sure didn't mess with any guns behind my parents back, not even the BB gun. I was just commenting that he didn't strike me as an obedient child but one that will do things behind the back of his parents.

He seems rather typical but not obedient imo.

imoo

[Hawk]

ChildVOICE, I just looked at your website and found this link
http://www.kpho.com/slideshow/18019101/detail.htmlindex.html?currentSlide=13&taf=pho
The steps look very narrow to me.

All stairs built in the last 20 years are at least 36" wide. Building codes (even in AZ), ADA, and Fire Marshalls require it!
Photographs can be deceptive. There are eight steps on the first flight and seven on the second, going 180 degrees from the bottom floor.

[Hawk]

Who?:ohmy:

Who? You sound like an OWL.
Just kidding!

[ChildsVOICE]

Have the documents stated VR arms and legs were sprawled. He would still have room to get around his father though, if so imo.

imoo

He is a child small for his age. See biological mother's description of him on GMA

Mom Defends Son Accused of Murder
http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=6320566

He's 8 years old. His feet did not even touch the floor from sitting in the chair in the interrogation video.

He would have been carrying a rifle and ammunition, without spilling any.

He would be carrying these UP the stairs.

Have a grown adult 5'11" man collaspe on a staircase at your house and just lay there. Pour some water on the steps around the man's head and chest. Invite an 8 year old child over. Place a broom stick and a small box of gravel in his hands. Have the child to mount the stairs in socks (just to pick up the water on his socks as the boy would have stepped in some of the blood). Even tell the child "Don't get any water on your socks."

Have someone just sit on one of the stairs and outstretch just their legs down the staircase. Have the kid carry anything up the stairs and get around the person sitting on the stairs.

Then, come back and tell me what happened.

I betcha the kid can't do it without needing to hold onto the railing and getting some of the water on his socks and complaining and most likely giving up.

I'm telling you....there's no way this kid did this.

VR had a gun shot in his left arm and grazing the left side of his head. One more going through his back and into his lung. One more in the front of his hard hat. plus one more to the head.

How did the boy shoot his father twice and climb up the stairs and around his father and get to the top of the stairs to shoot his father in the FRONT of his hard hat? If his father was still able to look up or was still standing, to receive the shot to the FRONT of his hard hat after being shot from the back, twice...wouldn't he be able to grab the boy as he mounted over him? or fight for the gun? anything?

The autopsy reports state that neither TR nor VR had any gun powder residue on their skin so they were not shot close range. The shooter had to be at least two and a half feet away. If there was brain matter and other fluids on the wall it would have had to come from a powerful weapon used.

Was there two shooters. One upstairs and one downstairs?

Was the Mossberg used with a 10 round magazine? Hence, 10 shots and the means to not spilling any.

Could someone have been using the Mossberg and have the Chipmunk loaded and sitting on the dog cage as a back up weapon and did not use it and just left it sitting there as they ran off with the Mossberg?

Could one shooter have the Mossberg and take it with him/her? and the other shooter have the Chipmunk and leave it behind?

Did Tim open the door to the truck or was he sitting in the truck, grab the missing handgun from his truck, gotten shot, collasped then the gunman grab his handgun as he ran off?

These are questions that the police were supposed to answer BEFORE putting a little 8 year old kid in near solitary confinement/isolation, shackling him, and deny him, until now, any therapy for his traumatic witnessing of a violent crime of his dear father.

[bkwits]

If my hubby were sprawled on the steps, I know I couldn't get over or around him easily - and I'm tall and have long legs. And doing so when you haven't put enough shots in to be sure he's dead, as indicated by the additional shot from the other side? No way does an 8 year old have the nerves for that - Daddies have superhuman strength - to an 8 year old - to do this when he's not yet dead - an adult might do that, searching the house for more witnesses, or running down to the door to get Tim - not a child.

My basement stairs are look very much like the stairs in Romero house...carpeted stairs, walls on both sides, hand rail on one side. I did an experiment where I lay down on the stairs and rested my head on the floor at the top of the stairs. I am 5' 8" so am tall, but smaller than VR. As you say, the body would not fall in a straight line up and down the stairs. I felt it would be difficult for a child to step around the body. Also, as you say, it would be extremely difficult for child to do so carrying a rifle and ammo. It is not just the weight but the awkwardness.

BTW, did he have to carry a box of ammo around with him, set it down, pick the shell out each time he loaded it? Then pick it uo each time he moved to another spot?

[Details]

Okay. Now your getting the spirit of the thing! Who had these things?A spurned lover - whether wife, ex, or girlfriend who just found out she wasn't the only one. A coworker who sees the victim as his nemisis. A drug dealer - no question about it! A bar fighter who thinks their honor has been insulted, wants revenge.

Not uncommon things to have, for adults. Very incredibly rare for children.

[Details]

Also I don't find him al that obedient. He admitted that he played with the air rifle behind his father's back when he knew that he did not want him to do that and he said he walked around the block when his mother wasn't home.

So he seems to do things when he thinks he can get away with it and they wouldn't know about it.

imooYes. He's 8. What part of that don't you get? Leave a cookie out in front of an 8 year old, tell him not to touch it, then go shopping. No 8 year old is very obedient, unless someone is with them, watching.

[Hawk]

A spurned lover - whether wife, ex, or girlfriend who just found out she wasn't the only one. A coworker who sees the victim as his nemisis. A drug dealer - no question about it! A bar fighter who thinks their honor has been insulted, wants revenge.

Not uncommon things to have, for adults. Very incredibly rare for children.

Good point!

[ChildsVOICE]

All stairs built in the last 20 years are at least 36" wide. Building codes (even in AZ), ADA, and Fire Marshalls require it!
Photographs can be deceptive. There are eight steps on the first flight and seven on the second, going 180 degrees from the bottom floor.

Yes. My ex husband was a construction worker. Been around a bunch.

Don't know when the house was built. Some on the previous thread mentioned they thought VR had just built the house.

Does AZ have the same 36" code? Did VR follow that code?

I don't know.

I agree photos are sometimes deceiving. I have taken that into account.


If there were reports of the boy having blood all over his shoes; Bloody footprints matching the boy's; dirty shoe prints either partial or full, anywhere on VR that matched the boy's footbrints, I'd agree. But, so far we do not find these facts. So, until any further evidence proves me wrong, I stick to the fact the kid couldn't have done it in the time allowed. Remember, you still have a LIVE fully capable TR outside talking to his wife.

[bkwits]

Also I don't find him al that obedient. He admitted that he played with the air rifle behind his father's back when he knew that he did not want him to do that and he said he walked around the block when his mother wasn't home.

So he seems to do things when he thinks he can get away with it and they wouldn't know about it.

imoo

You either had angelic children or have a short memory. He sounds very normal for an 8 year old. Especially one left to his on own a great deal of the time

IMO

[ChildsVOICE]

My basement stairs are look very much like the stairs in Romero house...carpeted stairs, walls on both sides, hand rail on one side. I did an experiment where I lay down on the stairs and rested my head on the floor at the top of the stairs. I am 5' 8" so am tall, but smaller than VR. As you say, the body would not fall in a straight line up and down the stairs. I felt it would be difficult for a child to step around the body. Also, as you say, it would be extremely difficult for child to do so carrying a rifle and ammo. It is not just the weight but the awkwardness.

BTW, did he have to carry a box of ammo around with him, set it down, pick the shell out each time he loaded it? Then pick it uo each time he moved to another spot?

There was no ammunition found in his pockets to his clothing.

There were no unspent rounds found anywhere around the bodies or expected crime scene.

The police state it was a single shot rifle. He would reload after each time so he would have to have some ammunition with him at all times.

Again, if he carried them loosely then how did he not drop any? especially climbing around his father going up the stairs and have some in tiny hands?

Carrying any in a hand would make mounting the stairs with a full grown adult male more difficult.

[Perplexed1]

All stairs built in the last 20 years are at least 36" wide. Building codes (even in AZ), ADA, and Fire Marshalls require it!
Photographs can be deceptive. There are eight steps on the first flight and seven on the second, going 180 degrees from the bottom floor.

Lay out a 36" rule, or yardstick. Not very wide. Wasn't VR 5'11"? Place all that in 36" width, please. :sad:

[Details]

And two shots to the chest in almost the same location - how does that happen with a single shot? The guy stays standing and waits while you reload? No matter how fast you are - that just doesn't fit!

[Perplexed1]

Lay out a 36" rule, or yardstick. Not very wide. Wasn't VR 5'11"? Place all that in 36" width, please. :sad:

Oh, and add the bulk of all the clothing, Carharts over other clothes.

[bkwits]

There was no ammunition found in his pockets to his clothing.

There were no unspent rounds found anywhere around the bodies or expected crime scene.

The police state it was a single shot rifle. He would reload after each time so he would have to have some ammunition with him at all times.

Again, if he carried them loosely then how did he not drop any? especially climbing around his father going up the stairs and have some in tiny hands?

Carrying any in a hand would make mounting the stairs with a full grown adult male more difficult.



Does LE state that it has to have been done by a single shot or are they just assuming it is the Chipmunk rifle?

[Perplexed1]

He is a child small for his age. See biological mother's description of him on GMA

Mom Defends Son Accused of Murder
http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=6320566

He's 8 years old. His feet did not even touch the floor from sitting in the chair in the interrogation video.

He would have been carrying a rifle and ammunition, without spilling any.

He would be carrying these UP the stairs.

Have a grown adult 5'11" man collaspe on a staircase at your house and just lay there. Pour some water on the steps around the man's head and chest. Invite an 8 year old child over. Place a broom stick and a small box of gravel in his hands. Have the child to mount the stairs in socks (just to pick up the water on his socks as the boy would have stepped in some of the blood). Even tell the child "Don't get any water on your socks."

Have someone just sit on one of the stairs and outstretch just their legs down the staircase. Have the kid carry anything up the stairs and get around the person sitting on the stairs.

Then, come back and tell me what happened.

I betcha the kid can't do it without needing to hold onto the railing and getting some of the water on his socks and complaining and most likely giving up.

I'm telling you....there's no way this kid did this.

VR had a gun shot in his left arm and grazing the left side of his head. One more going through his back and into his lung. One more in the front of his hard hat. plus one more to the head.

How did the boy shoot his father twice and climb up the stairs and around his father and get to the top of the stairs to shoot his father in the FRONT of his hard hat? If his father was still able to look up or was still standing, to receive the shot to the FRONT of his hard hat after being shot from the back, twice...wouldn't he be able to grab the boy as he mounted over him? or fight for the gun? anything?

The autopsy reports state that neither TR nor VR had any gun powder residue on their skin so they were not shot close range. The shooter had to be at least two and a half feet away. If there was brain matter and other fluids on the wall it would have had to come from a powerful weapon used.

Was there two shooters. One upstairs and one downstairs?

Was the Mossberg used with a 10 round magazine? Hence, 10 shots and the means to not spilling any.

Could someone have been using the Mossberg and have the Chipmunk loaded and sitting on the dog cage as a back up weapon and did not use it and just left it sitting there as they ran off with the Mossberg?

Could one shooter have the Mossberg and take it with him/her? and the other shooter have the Chipmunk and leave it behind?

Did Tim open the door to the truck or was he sitting in the truck, grab the missing handgun from his truck, gotten shot, collasped then the gunman grab his handgun as he ran off?

These are questions that the police were supposed to answer BEFORE putting a little 8 year old kid in near solitary confinement/isolation, shackling him, and deny him, until now, any therapy for his traumatic witnessing of a violent crime of his dear father.

Is it just me, or wouldn't he have sounded more like a maniac the next morning, after brutally murdering 2 people? Doctor's didn't detect that he was a sociopath (sp?) or physchopath.

[bkwits]

Lay out a 36" rule, or yardstick. Not very wide. Wasn't VR 5'11"? Place all that in 36" width, please. :sad:

Those stairs are likely slightly less than 36 inches. Note the tiles at the bottom of the steps. The walls take up a few inches, and the handrail intrudes on the space.

[GentleBreeze]

He is a child small for his age. See biological mother's description of him on GMA

Mom Defends Son Accused of Murder
http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=6320566

He's 8 years old. His feet did not even touch the floor from sitting in the chair in the interrogation video.

He would have been carrying a rifle and ammunition, without spilling any.

He would be carrying these UP the stairs.

Have a grown adult 5'11" man collapse on a staircase at your house and just lay there. Pour some water on the steps around the man's head and chest. Invite an 8 year old child over. Place a broom stick and a small box of gravel in his hands. Have the child to mount the stairs in socks (just to pick up the water on his socks as the boy would have stepped in some of the blood). Even tell the child "Don't get any water on your socks."

Have someone just sit on one of the stairs and outstretch just their legs down the staircase. Have the kid carry anything up the stairs and get around the person sitting on the stairs.

Then, come back and tell me what happened.

I betcha the kid can't do it without needing to hold onto the railing and getting some of the water on his socks and complaining and most likely giving up.

I'm telling you....there's no way this kid did this.

VR had a gun shot in his left arm and grazing the left side of his head. One more going through his back and into his lung. One more in the front of his hard hat. plus one more to the head.

How did the boy shoot his father twice and climb up the stairs and around his father and get to the top of the stairs to shoot his father in the FRONT of his hard hat? If his father was still able to look up or was still standing, to receive the shot to the FRONT of his hard hat after being shot from the back, twice...wouldn't he be able to grab the boy as he mounted over him? or fight for the gun? anything?

The autopsy reports state that neither TR nor VR had any gun powder residue on their skin so they were not shot close range. The shooter had to be at least two and a half feet away. If there was brain matter and other fluids on the wall it would have had to come from a powerful weapon used.

Was there two shooters. One upstairs and one downstairs?

Was the Mossberg used with a 10 round magazine? Hence, 10 shots and the means to not spilling any.

Could someone have been using the Mossberg and have the Chipmunk loaded and sitting on the dog cage as a back up weapon and did not use it and just left it sitting there as they ran off with the Mossberg?

Could one shooter have the Mossberg and take it with him/her? and the other shooter have the Chipmunk and leave it behind?

Did Tim open the door to the truck or was he sitting in the truck, grab the missing handgun from his truck, gotten shot, collapsed then the gunman grab his handgun as he ran off?

These are questions that the police were supposed to answer BEFORE putting a little 8 year old kid in near solitary confinement/isolation, shackling him, and deny him, until now, any therapy for his traumatic witnessing of a violent crime of his dear father.

I do appreciate your faith in this boy however I do not see this as a task undoable but a very easy one. This boy said the gun was easy to use and it is. He had shot this gun before and the gun only weighs around 2.5 pounds irrc and is shorter than an adult rifle. Even toy rifles are this size. Also the bullets aren't large but small so he could have carried them in his hand or even his pocket.

It is very easy to take down two unsuspecting adults when they have no warning whatsoever until it is too late to react except maybe stagger forward before being hit again. They had no weapon and the suspect did.

I hope that you are right and that I am wrong but I do believe he did this. The time line shows he had no time to even be at the home after the murders because once he got to the neighbors house several things had to transpire, yet all of it was done and over with and reported by 5:03 p,m. Tim Romans was alive at 4:55 p,m. and they were both dead when he left the home.

I think the door was left open on Vinnie's side because it was said that both of them were going that afternoon to help a friend work on a chest of drawers.

imoo

[Details]

Does LE state that it has to have been done by a single shot or are they just assuming it is the Chipmunk rifle?It's part of the case against the boy, that it was done with his gun. But that is all assumption at this point - no ballistics results have been released, and the gun was sent on from the original testing facility to have additional testing done elsewhere (the reason for additional testing is an interesting topic to think about... and the results of any original testing...).

[Hawk]

You either had angelic children or have a short memory. He sounds very normal for an 8 year old. Especially one left to his on own a great deal of the time

IMO

Seems normal to me, too.
You have to spend time with kids and teach by example.
This old BS of 'Do as I say and not as I do' went out the window long ago. My kids and grandkids spend time with me to get a little perspective, to get a little of my opinion on life, but mostly to reinforce their dependence on humor. We might disagree but they go away with a smile. Later they thank me for it. Am I special? Of course not. I just listen as much as I talk. That's what I want them to learn.

And they have never been left alone in time of crisis. And never will be.

[Good_Gawd]

Those stairs are likely slightly less than 36 inches. Note the tiles at the bottom of the steps. The walls take up a few inches, and the handrail intrudes on the space.

Are those 12" tiles?

[GentleBreeze]

Those stairs are likely slightly less than 36 inches. Note the tiles at the bottom of the steps. The walls take up a few inches, and the handrail intrudes on the space.

The home was just built not too long ago. It must meet inspection and be built to code. All hallways and stairways must have at least a 36 inch opening. It is also a fire code violation irrc.

imoo

[Perplexed1]

I do appreciate your faith in this boy however I do not see this as a task undoable but a very easy one. This boy said the gun was easy to use and it is. He had shot this gun before and the gun only weighs around 2.5 pounds irrc and is shorter than an adult rifle. Even toy rifles are this size. Also the bullets aren't large but small so he could have carried them in his hand or even his pocket.

It is very easy to take down two unsuspecting adults when they have no warning whatsoever until it is too late to react except maybe stagger forward before being hit again. They had no weapon and the suspect did.

I hope that you are right and that I am wrong but I do believe he did this. The time line shows he had no time to even be at the home after the murders because once he got to the neighbors house several things had to transpire, yet all of it was done and over with and reported by 5:03 p,m. Tim Romans was alive at 4:55 p,m. and they were both dead when he left the home.

I think the door was left open on Vinnie's side because it was said that both of them were going that afternoon to help a friend work on a chest of drawers.

imoo

For some it is just easier to beleive a lie, no disrespect. I'm sure hoping defense is working hard for the little guy.

[Good_Gawd]

The home was just built not too long ago. It must meet inspection and be built to code. All hallways and stairways must have at least a 36 inch opening. It is also a fire code violation irrc.

imoo

We just built a home in Indiana and nobody ever checked. I bet they don't check in Gooberville either.

[Perplexed1]

We just built a home in Indiana and nobody ever checked. I bet they don't check in Gooberville either.

Indiana! Just moved away from there 5 yrs. ago. Lived there 38 yrs. So cold.

[Perplexed1]

We just built a home in Indiana and nobody ever checked. I bet they don't check in Gooberville either.

I'm in flooring business, and very little is properly inspected anymore. Especially in gooberville. What else about this whole case has been to code.

[Good_Gawd]

Indiana! Just moved away from there 5 yrs. ago. Lived there 38 yrs. So cold.

Very very cold. :angry:

[Hawk]

The home was just built not too long ago. It must meet inspection and be built to code. All hallways and stairways must have at least a 36 inch opening. It is also a fire code violation irrc.

imoo

The house was built in 2003. It belongs to Mrs. Romero, according to tax records, who has lived with Mr. Romero long before the 'wedding'. There was no 'Honey Moon' type thing. She's known the boy a long time.
The staircase is a standard 36" wide.
Ain't no man 5'11" that would fill a 36" stairway. The boy, or anyone else with two feet, could easily step over, or beside, the body.
Good grief, the cops did.

[Perplexed1]

The house was built in 2003. It belongs to Mrs. Romero, according to tax records, who has lived with Mr. Romero long before the 'wedding'. There was no 'Honey Moon' type thing. She's known the boy a long time.
The staircase is a standard 36" wide.
Ain't no man 5'11" that would fill a 36" stairway. The boy, or anyone else could easily step over the body. Good grief, the cops did.

Exactly! They are GROWN men. No short legs.

[Hawk]

Exactly! They are GROWN men. No short legs.

Short legs can go up/down stairs. The boy went to bed didn't he?

[Perplexed1]

Short legs can go up/down stairs. The boy went to bed didn't he?

No convincing me. He didn't do it. case closed. Goodnight.:biggrin:

[GentleBreeze]

For some it is just easier to believe a lie, no disrespect. I'm sure hoping defense is working hard for the little guy.

I don't see the need for your sarcasm but it it makes you feel better then by all means carry on.

I don't believe I am wanting to believe a lie but I do want the truth as to who killed these two men. The time line of when Romans was alive and the sound of gunshots heard just does not compute. He had no time to discover them, go inside the home and then go to the boy's home and wait for the other father to come and it all be done and over by 5:03 pm.

imoo

[bkwits]

Are those 12" tiles?

I am thinking that they are 15" tiles. But you can see that the stair treads were originally 36" but the walls, trim, handrails have intruded on that space. My stair treads are actually about 38" but come out to a little less than 36" with baseboard and handrail.

[Hawk]

No convincing me. He didn't do it. case closed. Goodnight.:biggrin:

Alright then. He's got to get out of jail. I agree. But I can't give up on who killed these men.

Good night.

[GentleBreeze]

The house was built in 2003. It belongs to Mrs. Romero, according to tax records, who has lived with Mr. Romero long before the 'wedding'. There was no 'Honey Moon' type thing. She's known the boy a long time.
The staircase is a standard 36" wide.
Ain't no man 5'11" that would fill a 36" stairway. The boy, or anyone else with two feet, could easily step over, or beside, the body.
Good grief, the cops did.

Thank you. I knew the home wasnt that old.

And you are right, the big bad cops did it.:smile:

imoo

[Details]

Short legs can go up/down stairs. The boy went to bed didn't he?Unless the family is very odd, there would have been no one laying in the middle of the stairway while he did so - and he wouldn't have been asked to carry a rifle and a box while doing so.

Cops, with holsters and pockets to carry their things, and long legs to step over and past, adult coordination and reflexes, went over the body.

[bkwits]

The home was just built not too long ago. It must meet inspection and be built to code. All hallways and stairways must have at least a 36 inch opening. It is also a fire code violation irrc.

imoo

I agree with you. But trimmed out it slightly less than that.

[ChildsVOICE]

He could have balanced using the wall and with his foot sideways he would have plenty of room. To hear him tell it he sat beside his father's body so he had to get by him to do that.

imoo

He, later, described laying on the landing, crying. That would put him below the father.

When a child this age talks about "beside" it could mean anywhere near.

I can even see him getting beside his father's legs even up to his hips to see the "blood all over his face" but not climbing over his chest, arms, shoulders, bloody head & bloody carpeted steps, to get above his father.

Also, he does not describing going all the way past his father.

Why would he want or need to climb over the father to get to the top of the staircase if the father was already down with blood all over his face? Why would he go through all that time and trouble when he would be expecting TR to come through the door any second? and catch him?

The boy was grossed out and afraid to have to touch the father "to see if he was a little bit alive". This is indicated with him demonstrating how he touched his father buy reaching out with his toes. He couldn't even bring himself to touch his dad with his hands. He kept as much distance as possible and still do what he felt he had to do by touching him to check if he was alive. One last hope, I suppose.

This doesn't sound like an unremorseful, cold blooded murderer to me.

Also, the boy sounds apologetic when he describes when he saw Tim called Dad! Dad! he explained he didn't mean to hit Tim with the door but he "tapped his head with it, a little bit, I think".

Doesn't sound like a kid that just blew this guys brains out.

Listen...I have an Early Childhood Education Degree. I've been around some real sociopathic children. I've even had a six year old child intentionally kick his 8 month pregnant mother, directly and purposely, in the stomach then grab a pair of adult sissors and try to stab me with them. The child has been in a psyc center for children for many years, now. I could tell you a bunch more drug related, sexual molested victims, totally psycotic children who were way out there.

Believe me...I know, first hand, how some children even younger than this boy CAN behave and have serious mental issues.

The facts are just not adding up in this particular case.

At first, I thought the boy may have actually found the men shot and laying on the stairs and porch and then shot them, again, to put them out of the suffering. But, the more the facts starting coming out...the more I changed my mind and think that it is completely impossible for him to have committed the crime....IN THE MANNER IN WHICH THE POLICE ARE OFFERING.

Now, I don't even think he did it to end their suffering.

I am a very factual person. I must have the facts. But, I expect our public servants to do what they are getting PAID to do...their jobs! Not just seek out an easy paycheck at the expense of the most innocent of our society.

Innocent until proven guilty.

[GentleBreeze]

We just built a home in Indiana and nobody ever checked. I bet they don't check in Gooberville either.

LOL! Well I live in what could be calld Mayberry Jr. and they darn sure check everything here. They just love to find anything that is not meeting codes.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Do you know what its like to get my kids to carry ANYTHING up the stairs? Kids don't like to carry things UP stairs. Trust me. This does not add up.

Lets talk about how can VR be shot from behind in the back (left arm grazing left side of head and one more in the back) AND have a bullet hole in the front of his hard hat from ABOVE the stairs?

Wouldn't that take two shooters? VR had to be in an upright position to receive the blow to the front of the hard hat.

How could someone shoot from below and behind, climb around him or over him, and go to the second story floor hallway and shoot him in the front of his hard hat? if he collapsed before getting to the top step?

{I'm going over to pull the reports that state he was shot with 3-4 seconds between shots and all four shots took 16 seconds. Have to verify this info.}

View the AUTOPSY REPORTS:
http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/Autopsy-St-Johns-murder-victims-shot-in-the-head/gsb18gJlwkizzVprKFwW0A.cspx?p=Comments

I would be highly interested in reading about the report I have bolded in your post. I would have thought it would have been a few seconds longer than that for each shot. I knew it wouldn't take but a few seconds each though, since I have fired this same type of weapon when I was a child.

imoo

[Details]

...
Listen...I have an Early Childhood Education Degree. I've been around some real sociopathic children. I've even had a six year old child intentionally kick his 8 month pregnant mother, directly and purposely, in the stomach then grab a pair of adult sissors and try to stab me with them. The child has been in a psyc center for children for many years, now. I could tell you a bunch more drug related, sexual molested victims, totally psycotic children who were way out there.

Believe me...I know, first hand, how some children even younger than this boy CAN behave and have serious mental issues.....And a child that sick - they show it - as that one did and had for years. You have to get to be a lot more adult to learn how to control your impulses to hide what a monster you are. You don't just jump from normal happy messy kid who loves hanging out with his dad and seems a good kid to the neighbors and at school, to a sociopathic, organized, cold-blooded, and extremely fast killer.

[bkwits]

And a child that sick - they show it - as that one did and had for years. You have to get to be a lot more adult to learn how to control your impulses to hide what a monster you are. You don't just jump from normal happy messy kid who loves hanging out with his dad and seems a good kid to the neighbors and at school, to a sociopathic, organized, cold-blooded, and extremely fast killer.

This kid seems anything but organized. IMo

[ExPI]

Childsvoice - please elaborate on what you said "{I'm going over to pull the reports that state he was shot with 3-4 seconds between shots and all four shots took 16 seconds. Have to verify this info.}"

Does anyone know how far away his friend's house was. It was not across the street or next door. Police reports mention questioning the closer neighbors as to whether they heard or saw anything. He did not run to the nearest phone, his that was upstairs or his dad's or Tim's, he ran for a friend who happened to have a phone. This is hardly the act of a steely eyed shooter. It sounds like a terrified and panicked kid to me.
I just took a walk around the neighborhood on Google Maps, that is so cool! The newspaper and police photos don't give you a sense of how built up the area is. I had envisioned a lot more open space.
Also a smallish eight year old does not have the strength or agility to do the stairs. Scale it up to adult size and make the weapon a M-14 with a box of shotgun shells and only useevery other step. How easy is it now?

[Hawk]

It's been over two months now. Back and forth. No poster has a rational motive, time-line opportunity, or other reasonable weapon used to explain these gruesome bloody murders. All the evidence points to the single shot chipmunk. There wasn't an auto involved. Not one poster has stated how that isn't possible. Not even close.
The evidence against the boy is overwhelming.

In your heart of hearts, perhaps, you know that no one else could have done these awful deeds except young Romero. He acted alone and shot these men in a most horrible manner. He then shot them again and again to be sure they wouldn't jump up and get him.
Mr. Brewer, Mr. Carlyon, and Judge Roca know it. That's why this case is lingering. The court doesn't know what to do.

The question now is, what should be done with him?

If I had a vote I would say let him go.

[ChildsVOICE]

I don't see the need for your sarcasm but it it makes you feel better then by all means carry on.

I don't believe I am wanting to believe a lie but I do want the truth as to who killed these two men. The time line of when Romans was alive and the sound of gunshots heard just does not compute. He had no time to discover them, go inside the home and then go to the boy's home and wait for the other father to come and it all be done and over by 5:03 pm.

imoo

The original 5:03 p.m. call to 911 was the neighbors hearing the gunshots. Not the call from the teen's father.

I expect the teen's father was most likely already in route home from work and was very near the home. He, probably, just drove straight over to the Romero's to check it out, made what was the second of the 911 calls. The transcripts say he only checked out the Romero house long enough to see a man laying on the front porch. He could have done this just by driving by. The teen and the father each had cell phones, iirc.

The teen's father, the teen and the boy were standing outside the Romero residence when the police arrived for the first time.

Sgt. R figured it was approximately 5:06-5:08 p.m. when they (police)arrived.

The teen or his father let the boy use one of the cell phones to call the step mother at 5:12 and again at 5:14 p.m.


The neighbors who heard the gunshots and reported them, may have only and most likely, heard the final shots to TR, outside at 5:03 p.m.

The perpetrator(s) get into the vehicle with a get a way driver. The car rushes off. The child has been in route to the house arrives as the car rushes off. He sees Tim, runs and screams out dad's name, takes a few seconds to check the downstairs for the dad (if he actually did that) finds dad on stairs. Pokes dad with toes. Sits down beside or lays on landing and cries. Boy does not stay there long but seems so to truamatized child. Runs away to neighbors, fearful. Becha he was bookin' it. Teen's father drives straight to scene probably from only a few blocks away, most likely nearly home from work. Gets there before police who were 7 blocks away and had to leave police headquarters building and get into car. Used cell phone to make second 911 call from vehicle. In the meantime, boy and teen walk or run back over to Romero house (boy was seeking help) to join teen's dad. Police arrive.

Then case investigated, police get 8 year old to "confess" without actually confessing. Investigation shut down. Case solved about as fast as the crime was committed.

[JD1974]

3" each side, if shoulder span 30", and wall either side.


Does it say somewhere in any of the filings etc. how wide the stairs are? Are they truly 36"? Look at the bottom of the steps, there is tile put down, most tiles are 12" if those ones are, that stairway is only maybe 30" tops

[Details]

Hawk - speak for your heart of hearts - I know my own.


Rational motive - there are tons. Means, opportunity - few people who had motive have been fully alibi'd. The Chimpmonk is not a good weapon for this crime, and only a few particular order of shots make it possible - two shots in a chest so close they touch do not fit it well at all. The evidence against this boy is flimsy and nearly nonexistent - a report of a phone call by someone who could be a top suspect.

[JD1974]

Are those 12" tiles?


I just posted that, you beat me to it. I believe they are which would make the staircase NOT 36"

[Hawk]

Hawk - speak for your heart of hearts - I know my own.

Then come up with a detailed account of what happened.

[ChildsVOICE]

Childsvoice - please elaborate on what you said "{I'm going over to pull the reports that state he was shot with 3-4 seconds between shots and all four shots took 16 seconds. Have to verify this info.}"

Does anyone know how far away his friend's house was. It was not across the street or next door. Police reports mention questioning the closer neighbors as to whether they heard or saw anything. He did not run to the nearest phone, his that was upstairs or his dad's or Tim's, he ran for a friend who happened to have a phone. This is hardly the act of a steely eyed shooter. It sounds like a terrified and panicked kid to me.
I just took a walk around the neighborhood on Google Maps, that is so cool! The newspaper and police photos don't give you a sense of how built up the area is. I had envisioned a lot more open space.
Also a smallish eight year old does not have the strength or agility to do the stairs. Scale it up to adult size and make the weapon a M-14 with a box of shotgun shells and only useevery other step. How easy is it now?

Yeah, ExPI! You rock! I've got to see where I saw that. So much has come in. I couldn't believe that info when I read it and wanted to delve further. I'll try to find it but may need to post it tomorrow. I still don't know how accurate that info would be.

A poster stated last night that the possible missing Mossberg would be able to use a 10 round magazine. Would that explain the short time frame, the fact the men were shot 10 times, and the fact that no unspent shells were found at the crime scene? Seems to me the time frame calls for an automatic , semi automatic, and/or two shooters. Not a little 8 year old kid.

[Details]

Then come up with a detailed account of what happened.It's been done, and you've been here. You don't accept it - that's fine - I don't accept yours either. The crime and the wounds simply do not fit the single shot chipmunk. Let alone a sociopathic organized 8 year old's body and abilities, least of all, this 8 year old.

[Hawk]

It's been done, and you've been here. You don't accept it - that's fine - I don't accept yours either. The crime and the wounds simply do not fit the single shot chipmunk. Let alone an 8 year old's body and abilities, least of all, this 8 year old.

Yes, they do. Perfectly. Where is your alternate scenario? Not just who was where but in evidence?
You just refuse to accept facts.
I understand why. I don't like them either.

[Crispy]

It's been over two months now. Back and forth. No poster has a rational motive, time-line opportunity, or other reasonable weapon used to explain these gruesome bloody murders. All the evidence points to the single shot chipmunk. There wasn't an auto involved. Not one poster has stated how that isn't possible. Not even close.
The evidence against the boy is overwhelming.

In your heart of hearts, perhaps, you know that no one else could have done these awful deeds except young Romero. He acted alone and shot these men in a most horrible manner. He then shot them again and again to be sure they wouldn't jump up and get him.
Mr. Brewer, Mr. Carlyon, and Judge Roca know it. That's why this case is lingering. The court doesn't know what to do.

The question now is, what should be done with him?

If I had a vote I would say let him go.


I would think that if Mr. Brewer, Mr. Carlyon and Judge Roca all knew for sure, the boy would have taken a plea deal.

Also, I haven't seen where the ballistics have come back stating as fact what gun was used.

jmo

[Hawk]

[QUOTE=Hawk;12656894]Well, I didn't want to get personal, but do you think the boy was afraid to go into the house alone? I mean on an average day.
My 8 year old grandson would be. So would my 10 year old granddaughter. And my other kids and grandkids at that age.
When me and my five boy cousins were that age (50 years ago) we were all scared to go upstairs at Granny's house.

My 8 year old son is afraid to go upstairs an take a shower unless someone else is up there in another room or something as long as someone is up there.

Good point Hawk!

Thank you!

[Hawk]

I would think that if Mr. Brewer, Mr. Carlyon and Judge Roca all knew for sure, the boy would have taken a plea deal.

Also, I haven't seen where the ballistics have come back stating as fact what gun was used.

jmo

Mr. Brewers job is to save his client. He'll use whatever means available.
If you're waiting for firing pin reports you may be disappointed.

[Crispy]

OK why will I be disappointed?

[Jacobtk]

I do appreciate your faith in this boy however I do not see this as a task undoable but a very easy one. This boy said the gun was easy to use and it is. He had shot this gun before and the gun only weighs around 2.5 pounds irrc and is shorter than an adult rifle. Even toy rifles are this size. Also the bullets aren't large but small so he could have carried them in his hand or even his pocket.

The weight of the gun and the size of the rounds only play a part. The issue is not whether the boy could use the rifle, but whether he had the skill and control to shoot two people ten times in total in the span of handful of minutes while grouping his shots together. That does not sound probable even if it were an adult shooter. A person would have to be very skilled with the weapon and very fast and accurate and have a still target in order to do what was done.

It is very easy to take down two unsuspecting adults when they have no warning whatsoever until it is too late to react except maybe stagger forward before being hit again.

True, except staggering forward would change the angle of the entry wounds and that would be noticeable during the autopsy.

The time line shows he had no time to even be at the home after the murders because once he got to the neighbors house several things had to transpire, yet all of it was done and over with and reported by 5:03 p,m. Tim Romans was alive at 4:55 p,m. and they were both dead when he left the home.

Well, there is no consistent time line because no one is certain when the shots were actually heard. All we know is when the first call came in to the police. The best means of knowing when Romans was last alive would be checking his cell phone records to verify that he spoke with his wife. To date that does not appear to have happened. It certainly has not been entered into evidence by the state. So, we honestly cannot know when Romans was shot.

[Details]

Yes, they do. Perfectly. Where is your alternate scenario? Not just who was where but in evidence?
You just refuse to accept facts.
I understand why. I don't like them either.No need to get personal if you don't like my answer. I accept facts - but I don't see where you have them on your side. I've given several alternates. Your scenario relies tightly on a particular firing order that doesn't make much sense to me.

You have to take several huge, enormous leaps to set up that this 8 year old did it. He's got to somehow be an undetected sociopath or otherwise severe mental defect, who somehow perfectly covers it, at 8 years old. He's got to have organizational skills and coordination that are challenging for adult military members. He's got to take out two adult men without flinching. He's got to kill one out in public, without being seen, without that one getting the gun right next to him, with Tim making the suicidal and insane decision to run into gunfire rather than away from it (one of the biggest leaps - he's got a cell, a gun, and a path to freedom by running away - and the blood trail shows him running to the door. No logic there). He's got to carry a gun and a box of ammo over his father's bloody corpse (or not yet corpse) in a tight stairway - 8 years old - short legs, lacking adult coordination. And he's got to do all of this organization, planning, cold calculation - and still be such a fool that he tells the police anything they want to hear. And while telling them what they want to hear, confessing to the worst things he could ever admit to, going along with anything they ask him - he still can't manage to even come close to the murder scene - not in number of shots, not in even the little, nonincriminatory matter of where he left the gun.

And single shot - yeah, you can kill grown men as they wait for you to reload, you shoot someone in the chest, and he'll stand there and wait for you to reload so you can shoot him again at the same spot in the chest. Everything points to something far faster than that - not something where you need a few seconds to reload. You get shot in the chest, you feel it, you collapse to the ground, or clutch at it, or curl up around it - you don't stand there to give access to another shot for another several seconds.

The facts do not point to him as the killer. It's not quite impossible - but insanely unlikely that this is indeed the evil spawn of satan, cold, calculating, while appearing innocent, normal, and disorganized, with coordination, mental abilities maybe a decade above his biological age, gun handling abilities well beyond that, that have never shown before or since - but somehow in an interrogation room he's a wimp who rolls over to any question.

[Jacobtk]

It's been over two months now. Back and forth. No poster has a rational motive, time-line opportunity, or other reasonable weapon used to explain these gruesome bloody murders. All the evidence points to the single shot chipmunk. There wasn't an auto involved. Not one poster has stated how that isn't possible. Not even close.

The evidence against the boy is overwhelming.

If it were true, then the boy's attorneys would take the plea deal. Not taking the deal would leave the boy subject to being placed indefinitely in a mental institution (by virtue of being found incompetent due to his age). Likewise, none of the ballistic evidence has come back. There is nothing suggesting that a single-shot rifle was used beyond the boy's statements (which cannot be trusted) and the police's insistence (which is at best questionable). There a manual for a Mossberg semi-automatic rifle that held 10 .22 caliber rounds in its magazine and apparently the police have not sought out the weapon or confiscated it. Similarly, no fingerprint analysis has come back beyond the boy's print being found on the box of bullets, which does not prove anything since the state's position is that the boy is an avid hunter.

Based on the evidence that is available, it is not very likely the boy did it. Until the state can prove all the casings come from his gun and that he was the shooter (i.e. his prints are on the casings), there is more than enough reasonable doubt.

[ExPI]

Yeah, ExPI! You rock! I've got to see where I saw that. So much has come in. I couldn't believe that info when I read it and wanted to delve further. I'll try to find it but may need to post it tomorrow. I still don't know how accurate that info would be.

A poster stated last night that the possible missing Mossberg would be able to use a 10 round magazine. Would that explain the short time frame, the fact the men were shot 10 times, and the fact that no unspent shells were found at the crime scene? Seems to me the time frame calls for an automatic , semi automatic, and/or two shooters. Not a little 8 year old kid.

The unbelievable story of ANYONE killing two healthy young men with a single shot bolt action ..22 ifle in a close quarters situation was what got me interested in this case to begin with. When I saw the picture of the Mossberg pamphlet I thought "Now there is the gun that could have done this" but the gun is not found. The kid doesn't have time to hide it. The Mossberg has a ten shot magazine and can have another in the chamber ready to fire, no fumbling for shells, no racking the bolt just eleven shots just as fast as you can pull the trigger. The locations of the spent cases does not mean much. Some 22's eject vigorously some don't eject at all. Without a gun to test it is all supposition. There may have been no live .22 shells at all in the house at all. The left over live rounds are assumed to be in the 17 Hornady box but NO ONE opened it to even identify them let alone count them.

[ChildsVOICE]

No need to get personal if you don't like my answer. I accept facts - but I don't see where you have them on your side. I've given several alternates. Your scenario relies tightly on a particular firing order that doesn't make much sense to me.

You have to take several huge, enormous leaps to set up that this 8 year old did it. He's got to somehow be an undetected sociopath or otherwise severe mental defect, who somehow perfectly covers it, at 8 years old. He's got to have organizational skills and coordination that are challenging for adult military members. He's got to take out two adult men without flinching. He's got to kill one out in public, without being seen, without that one getting the gun right next to him, with Tim making the suicidal and insane decision to run into gunfire rather than away from it (one of the biggest leaps - he's got a cell, a gun, and a path to freedom by running away - and the blood trail shows him running to the door. No logic there). He's got to carry a gun and a box of ammo over his father's bloody corpse (or not yet corpse) in a tight stairway - 8 years old - short legs, lacking adult coordination. And he's got to do all of this organization, planning, cold calculation - and still be such a fool that he tells the police anything they want to hear. And while telling them what they want to hear, confessing to the worst things he could ever admit to, going along with anything they ask him - he still can't manage to even come close to the murder scene - not in number of shots, not in even the little, nonincriminatory matter of where he left the gun.

And single shot - yeah, you can kill grown men as they wait for you to reload, you shoot someone in the chest, and he'll stand there and wait for you to reload so you can shoot him again at the same spot in the chest. Everything points to something far faster than that - not something where you need a few seconds to reload. You get shot in the chest, you feel it, you collapse to the ground, or clutch at it, or curl up around it - you don't stand there to give access to another shot for another several seconds.

The facts do not point to him as the killer. It's not quite impossible - but insanely unlikely that this is indeed the evil spawn of satan, cold, calculating, while appearing innocent, normal, and disorganized, with coordination, mental abilities maybe a decade above his biological age, gun handling abilities well beyond that, that have never shown before or since - but somehow in an interrogation room he's a wimp who rolls over to any question.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::lol:

[ChildsVOICE]

And a child that sick - they show it - as that one did and had for years. You have to get to be a lot more adult to learn how to control your impulses to hide what a monster you are. You don't just jump from normal happy messy kid who loves hanging out with his dad and seems a good kid to the neighbors and at school, to a sociopathic, organized, cold-blooded, and extremely fast killer.

I agree. This boy does NOT fit the profile.

[ChildsVOICE]

The original 5:03 p.m. call to 911 was the neighbors hearing the gunshots. Not the call from the teen's father.

I expect the teen's father was most likely already in route home from work and was very near the home. He, probably, just drove straight over to the Romero's to check it out, made what was the second of the 911 calls. The transcripts say he only checked out the Romero house long enough to see a man laying on the front porch. He could have done this just by driving by. The teen and the father each had cell phones, iirc.

The teen's father, the teen and the boy were standing outside the Romero residence when the police arrived for the first time.

Sgt. R figured it was approximately 5:06-5:08 p.m. when they (police)arrived.

The teen or his father let the boy use one of the cell phones to call the step mother at 5:12 and again at 5:14 p.m.


The neighbors who heard the gunshots and reported them, may have only and most likely, heard the final shots to TR, outside at 5:03 p.m.

The perpetrator(s) get into the vehicle with a get a way driver. The car rushes off. The child has been in route to the house arrives as the car rushes off. He sees Tim, runs and screams out dad's name, takes a few seconds to check the downstairs for the dad (if he actually did that) finds dad on stairs. Pokes dad with toes. Sits down beside or lays on landing and cries. Boy does not stay there long but seems so to truamatized child. Runs away to neighbors, fearful. Becha he was bookin' it. Teen's father drives straight to scene probably from only a few blocks away, most likely nearly home from work. Gets there before police who were 7 blocks away and had to leave police headquarters building and get into car. Used cell phone to make second 911 call from vehicle. In the meantime, boy and teen walk or run back over to Romero house (boy was seeking help) to join teen's dad. Police arrive.

Then case investigated, police get 8 year old to "confess" without actually confessing. Investigation shut down. Case solved about as fast as the crime was committed.


The boy barely had enough time to do what he originally stated but it is completely do-able in his original version.

No way could he add shooting two adult men who were avid hunters, upstairs & downstairs, inside and outside, climbing over a body twice--once going up and once coming back down, etc. etc. etc.

[ChildsVOICE]

Got to go. Sounds like I've got an 8 year old boy upstairs getting sick. He's had a nasty cold.

Good night.

Just keep praying for the little Romero boy.

[ExPI]

I am going to get ahead of the curve on the ballistics.

This information is from a Texas case.

(3) A .22 caliber rifle bullet was used to cause the death of the victim, and that bullet was impressed with a rifle barrel with a right hand twist and "twelve lands and grooves;"

(6) To the State's firearm expert's knowledge, the only kind of gun that could have ben used to kill the victim was a Cricket .22 caliber rifle;

This is from Mossberg's website:
Plinkster® features an automatic bolt lock - keeping the bolt open, after the last shot is fired from the magazine. The .22 caliber (Long Rifle only) free-floating barrel employs an 8-groove, 1 in 16" RH twist,

How tough can it be to count the difference between a spacing of 8 and a spacing of 12? How many labs do you need to send te evidence to? I think I was intentionally not looking this up because I feared the rifles would be the same pattern. This is simple. Why haven't they released the ballistics? I think the prosecution doesn't like the answer.

[ChildsVOICE]

Does LE state that it has to have been done by a single shot or are they just assuming it is the Chipmunk rifle?

They saw it laying there (or where ever they acutually found it) saw all the .22 caliber spent shells everywhere.

I'm assuming they assumed.

[ChildsVOICE]

Hope this brightens your morning:

Judge FINALLY allows DA's pick for therapist! Yeah!

from Apache County Superior Court High Profile Case website:

ORDER APPOINTING BETTY BEAUMONT MA.pdf


News report:

http://www.azfamily.com/video/localnews-index.html?nvid=321737&shu=1

[PensiveOne]

The special action doc has a new entry at the bottom:

13-Jan-2009 ORDER: Under Advisement AS OF 1/13/09 (Judges Hall, Portley, Norris)

[muska]

It's been over two months now. Back and forth. No poster has a rational motive, time-line opportunity, or other reasonable weapon used to explain these gruesome bloody murders. All the evidence points to the single shot chipmunk. There wasn't an auto involved. Not one poster has stated how that isn't possible. Not even close.
The evidence against the boy is overwhelming.

In your heart of hearts, perhaps, you know that no one else could have done these awful deeds except young Romero. He acted alone and shot these men in a most horrible manner. He then shot them again and again to be sure they wouldn't jump up and get him.
Mr. Brewer, Mr. Carlyon, and Judge Roca know it. That's why this case is lingering. The court doesn't know what to do.

The question now is, what should be done with him?



If I had a vote I would say let him go.

Hawk - Please speak only for yourself! I do not agree with you...not even close!

[GentleBreeze]

The boy barely had enough time to do what he originally stated but it is completely do-able in his original version.

No way could he add shooting two adult men who were avid hunters, upstairs & downstairs, inside and outside, climbing over a body twice--once going up and once coming back down, etc. etc. etc.

What does being an avid hunter have to do with it? Neither man was armed. They had no weapons. The shooter did. A cop can be a sharpshooter but if he has no weapon and is fired upon he can die just like anyone else.

imo

[muska]

The interview/"confession" shouldn't be used in our attempts to figure out what happened. The prosecutor has agreed to suppress it, and if the judge is at all fair, he will throw it out. They both know it was coerced. There's no way to know what is accurate from the child's statements. IMO

[suzanne]

The original 5:03 p.m. call to 911 was the neighbors hearing the gunshots. Not the call from the teen's father.

I expect the teen's father was most likely already in route home from work and was very near the home. He, probably, just drove straight over to the Romero's to check it out, made what was the second of the 911 calls. The transcripts say he only checked out the Romero house long enough to see a man laying on the front porch. He could have done this just by driving by. The teen and the father each had cell phones, iirc.

The teen's father, the teen and the boy were standing outside the Romero residence when the police arrived for the first time.

Sgt. R figured it was approximately 5:06-5:08 p.m. when they (police)arrived.

The teen or his father let the boy use one of the cell phones to call the step mother at 5:12 and again at 5:14 p.m.


The neighbors who heard the gunshots and reported them, may have only and most likely, heard the final shots to TR, outside at 5:03 p.m.

The perpetrator(s) get into the vehicle with a get a way driver. The car rushes off. The child has been in route to the house arrives as the car rushes off. He sees Tim, runs and screams out dad's name, takes a few seconds to check the downstairs for the dad (if he actually did that) finds dad on stairs. Pokes dad with toes. Sits down beside or lays on landing and cries. Boy does not stay there long but seems so to truamatized child. Runs away to neighbors, fearful. Becha he was bookin' it. Teen's father drives straight to scene probably from only a few blocks away, most likely nearly home from work. Gets there before police who were 7 blocks away and had to leave police headquarters building and get into car. Used cell phone to make second 911 call from vehicle. In the meantime, boy and teen walk or run back over to Romero house (boy was seeking help) to join teen's dad. Police arrive.

Then case investigated, police get 8 year old to "confess" without actually confessing. Investigation shut down. Case solved about as fast as the crime was committed.The police got there after the 911 call in 3 to 5 minutes?:confused:

[GentleBreeze]

Yeah, ExPI! You rock! I've got to see where I saw that. So much has come in. I couldn't believe that info when I read it and wanted to delve further. I'll try to find it but may need to post it tomorrow. I still don't know how accurate that info would be.

A poster stated last night that the possible missing Mossberg would be able to use a 10 round magazine. Would that explain the short time frame, the fact the men were shot 10 times, and the fact that no unspent shells were found at the crime scene? Seems to me the time frame calls for an automatic , semi automatic, and/or two shooters. Not a little 8 year old kid.

It would be inconsistent with the shots the neighbors said they heard. They weren't rapid fire but a "pop" then a delay between each "pop." That is consistent with a single bolt action rifle.

imo

[Perplexed1]

No need to get personal if you don't like my answer. I accept facts - but I don't see where you have them on your side. I've given several alternates. Your scenario relies tightly on a particular firing order that doesn't make much sense to me.

You have to take several huge, enormous leaps to set up that this 8 year old did it. He's got to somehow be an undetected sociopath or otherwise severe mental defect, who somehow perfectly covers it, at 8 years old. He's got to have organizational skills and coordination that are challenging for adult military members. He's got to take out two adult men without flinching. He's got to kill one out in public, without being seen, without that one getting the gun right next to him, with Tim making the suicidal and insane decision to run into gunfire rather than away from it (one of the biggest leaps - he's got a cell, a gun, and a path to freedom by running away - and the blood trail shows him running to the door. No logic there). He's got to carry a gun and a box of ammo over his father's bloody corpse (or not yet corpse) in a tight stairway - 8 years old - short legs, lacking adult coordination. And he's got to do all of this organization, planning, cold calculation - and still be such a fool that he tells the police anything they want to hear. And while telling them what they want to hear, confessing to the worst things he could ever admit to, going along with anything they ask him - he still can't manage to even come close to the murder scene - not in number of shots, not in even the little, nonincriminatory matter of where he left the gun.

And single shot - yeah, you can kill grown men as they wait for you to reload, you shoot someone in the chest, and he'll stand there and wait for you to reload so you can shoot him again at the same spot in the chest. Everything points to something far faster than that - not something where you need a few seconds to reload. You get shot in the chest, you feel it, you collapse to the ground, or clutch at it, or curl up around it - you don't stand there to give access to another shot for another several seconds.

The facts do not point to him as the killer. It's not quite impossible - but insanely unlikely that this is indeed the evil spawn of satan, cold, calculating, while appearing innocent, normal, and disorganized, with coordination, mental abilities maybe a decade above his biological age, gun handling abilities well beyond that, that have never shown before or since - but somehow in an interrogation room he's a wimp who rolls over to any question.

Whether he ran and got his gun to put them out of misery, or simoly for protection, I originally thought he wimped down, thinking, 'I'm in trouble for getting the gun!' I still think this.

[GentleBreeze]

The police got there after the 911 call in 3 to 5 minutes?:confused:

The police were at the scene within a couple of minutes after the 911 call.

Its in the Nov. 10th hearing testimony.

imoo

[suzanne]

The police were at the scene within a couple of minutes after the 911 call.

Its in the Nov. 10th hearing testimony.

imoo

There is no way this could have happened.It would have taken them 3 to 5 minutes just to get out of the building and to thier car.It didn't happen this way.The police have been wrong about alot of other things too.As Henry Lee would say Somethings wrong here.

[muska]

I am rather confused by so many claiming almost 9 year olds are clumsy and uncoordinated. Two short years ago my son was that exact age. I can assure you he as well as his friends are not only agile but extremely coordinated. They could shimmy up the big oak tree in my backyard in a matter of seconds...carrying their lunches AND drinks to eat in their respective favorite nooks. My own son since age 6 or 7 would jump the 8 steps from the landing to the ground floor. He also has been known to walk up the doorways to the ceiling.

I am just not seeing an almost nine year old, as a bumbling clumsy baby incapable of the crime. My own could hit a bulls eye with a bow at 75 feet at that age.

Hey - Are you Linda? You kind of sound like her. And it's coincidental that she had an extremely competent 10 year old and yours is nine years old. Just curious. If you are, welcome back!

[GentleBreeze]

Yes, it is. It's also consistent with where they found the boys gun. The boys gun was the murder weapon.

Yes, I also think this boy's gun was the murder weapon.

Also I think many are giving the two dead victims way too much credit on their supposedly abilities that day.

While we would like to believe that we would be fully prepared in case of a violent attack upon us from right out of the blue many times that is not the case.]

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/mental_preparation.htm

This massively complex cocktail of factors is collectively known as the adrenal stress response.

We change in a crisis -- and not always for the better. Our physical and mental acuity are greatly reduced and we are functioning in a very primitive and raw state.

Not only is functioning more difficult, but our perceptions are altered. That is to say our internal 'reality' may not be an accurate reflection of the external 'actuality.' Unfortunately, in this condition what we are going to be reacting to is our internal reality.

The adrenal response can easily create two totally different problems. One is that it renders you incapable of action. Two is it causes you to go berserk on someone ... neither is good.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

There is no way this could have happened.It would have taken them 3 to 5 minutes just to get out of the building and to their car.It didn't happen this way.The police have been wrong about alot of other things too.As Henry Lee would say Somethings wrong here.

This was a tiny town. I believe the police station was about 7 blocks away from the crime scene.

Two minutes to get there is a hurry can be done. I doubt this town has congestion and may not even have that many red lights.

Henry Lee? :tonguewag: Has he spit out catchup lately in a courtroom?:lol:

imoo

[suzanne]

I believe there is an ignore feature. As long as you post on the thread, anyone can reply.


I am saying please do not be rude on my threads.That is ok.Please do not do it any more.We shouldn't have to be ignoring anything.If it happens again by people I am going to report it.