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[secrets]

But if the evidence is not legal gotten how they can use it? Normally for legal evidence are rules to follow, if they don’t follow the rules it’s not legal, and a sentence based on illegal gotten evidence? How long will that last?

What have we seen so far is pitiful performance of LE and the court officials (the first judge, and in some ways Roca - the therapist, mothers photo, imprisonment of an 8y child etc), following the rules could not be in the agenda of these people.
It would be normal to throw out illegally obtained evidence, but it all depends on the judge, so we shall see.

[secrets]

The lighter, etc, may have been in his hand when he collapsed.
The first blood drop was about 20' from the front door.
His wallet, easily accessed due to him being face down, contained over $500.00 in cash when LE checked it.

By the way, since you are neither American nor English, you may want to know that there ain't so such english word as lawyering.
But let's use it anyway.

I am always thankful of the help and education i receive on this board from my fellow posters.

[muska]

The lighter, etc, may have been in his hand when he collapsed.
The first blood drop was about 20' from the front door.
His wallet, easily accessed due to him being face down, contained over $500.00 in cash when LE checked it.

By the way, since you are neither American nor English, you may want to know that there ain't so such english word as lawyering.
But let's use it anyway.

But there was a bottle of visine, 2 inhalers, cigarettes and a lighter all next to TRs leg - he would not have run toward or away from a shooter and kept all of that in his hand. Maybe the police took it out (it doesn't seem they would) or maybe someone went through his pocket, found what he wanted and left. I don't know, it just seems strange. There were cigarettes and a lighter beside VR and he doesn't even smoke, according to the reports.

Are we sure if his wallet was in his pocket? Maybe it was in the car.

[muska]

I also saw, on the police evidence list, that VR had 309 dollars in his wallet. Both of these guys carried a lot of cash - whoever it was must not have been looking for money.

[PensiveOne]

Now that I am reminded, I think you are right...at least that's how it sounded on the tape. The last few times I've looked at his words, it's always been the transcript. That's an interesting change in words...for sure...I'll have to go back and listen too. Do you think they just made a mistake?

It probably was a mistake. I listened to it again, I still think he said, You and not me...

[Cherishlove]

I was on this site reading and some of the people on there have convicted the boy and actually it was really scarry, I just got creeped out by what they were saying.

These http://www.topix.com/forum/city/springerville-az/TNFFVRKM2I98S97FB/p34


I've been praying for the boy all along, there are so many other's that had motive. My ex husband was dealing drugs and I found out, and I told him to knock it off because it was putting our sons life in danger and I told him if he did not I would go to Baynett and turn him in I gave a warning and I think and hope and pray he stopped, one bad drug deal and my son's life would be in danger, he lives with me most of the time but there every other weekend. I know there was talk of drug dealing with the Roommate in the past that is nothing to mess with one bad drug deal and your life is in danger, who knows, there was so much going on and so many with motive.

[Hawk]

But there was a bottle of visine, 2 inhalers, cigarettes and a lighter all next to TRs leg - he would not have run toward or away from a shooter and kept all of that in his hand. Maybe the police took it out (it doesn't seem they would) or maybe someone went through his pocket, found what he wanted and left. I don't know, it just seems strange. There were cigarettes and a lighter beside VR and he doesn't even smoke, according to the reports.

Are we sure if his wallet was in his pocket? Maybe it was in the car.

I agree it's odd that he would have held on to all those items after being shot three times. Maybe someone did go through his pockets but if so they left all that cash.
The wallet was in his pocket when he died. Detective Neckel testified that she took it out to ID the victim. (They photographed the 5 $100 bills on the dead mans leg).
Sgt. Rodriguez testified that the items were on the ground when he arrived. And left there after the investigation was completed. Mr. Brewer asked him about them and if the items were taken as evidence. They were not.
The items were found next to Mr. Romans (who also had cigarettes in his pocket).
No cigarettes were found near Mr. Romero.

[Jacobtk]

Why would one doctor need the results of another in order to do their own mental evaluation?

While that is how the state made it sound, however, it is not necessary. The state wants the full report in order to determine how the defense's expert reached his conclusion and attempt to take his conclusion apart, i.e. claim that it was improperly conducted. Otherwise there is no valid reason for the state to ask for the full report, especially since they have not presented their report yet. However, it is typical for the defense to ask for the same thing when the order of the evaluations are reversed.

It just usually does not happen after they have done their own evaluation, but have not presented the results to the court.

[PensiveOne]

While that is how the state made it sound, however, it is not necessary. The state wants the full report in order to determine how the defense's expert reached his conclusion and attempt to take his conclusion apart, i.e. claim that it was improperly conducted. Otherwise there is no valid reason for the state to ask for the full report, especially since they have not presented their report yet. However, it is typical for the defense to ask for the same thing when the order of the evaluations are reversed.

It just usually does not happen after they have done their own evaluation, but have not presented the results to the court.

Don't you think this judge let's the state get by with quite a lot in this case? I mean look at all the leaks, and not one bit of outrage from this judge after he put a GAG order on everybody!

[Hawk]

It seems strange that Rodriquez didn't consider this suspicious.

Good point. Mr. Brewer seems to think it means something.
Isn't it odd that a man sits in his truck talking to his wife on the phone, hears, and I suppose sees, the boy yelling for him, says goodbye, grabs a pack of cigs, a lighter, and an inhaler before he steps out to find out whats wrong? Then holds on to these items after he'd been shot to pieces.
They couldn't have been taken from his front pockets because he was face down on the ground and Sgt Rodriguez testified that the body had not been moved, which I assume turned over.
But the items could have dropped from a killer's shirt pocket when he bent over to shoot two of the hateful head shots into Mr. Romans.

Another thing is why would Mr. Romans have these items in his hand anyway? He and Mr. Romero were about to leave to help a friend.
As a 3 day a week boarder he kept most of his personal stuff in his truck. I know this from past experience.

Just a thought.

[Jacobtk]

Don't you think this judge let's the state get by with quite a lot in this case? I mean look at all the leaks, and not one bit of outrage from this judge after he put a GAG order on everybody!

Well, the gag order only prevents them from speaking about it. All the reports, evidence and transcripts are technically public record. What is odd about this is that in most states a juvenile's records would not be accessible to the public. They would be sealed even if the child were convicted. So, to that extent, you have a point. The information that has been made available does technically violate the juvenile justice laws in Arizona.

[PensiveOne]

Good point. Mr. Brewer seems to think it means something.
Isn't it odd that a man sits in his truck talking to his wife on the phone, hears, and I suppose sees, the boy yelling for him, says goodbye, grabs a pack of cigs, a lighter, and an inhaler before he steps out to find out whats wrong? Then holds on to these items after he'd been shot to pieces.
They couldn't have been taken from his front pockets because he was face down on the ground and Sgt Rodriguez testified that the body had not been moved, which I assume turned over.
But the items could have dropped from a killer's shirt pocket when he bent over to shoot two of the hateful head shots into Mr. Romans.

Another thing is why would Mr. Romans have these items in his hand anyway? He and Mr. Romero were about to leave to help a friend.
As a 3 day a week boarder he kept most of his personal stuff in his truck. I know this from past experience.

Just a thought.

Hawk, I had not even thought about him taking that stuff up to the house when he was supposed to be leaving again...OMG, that does not make sense. You are so right! I also wonder about the two different brands of cigarettes.

[Details]

Links to articles with the boys name are allowed, have been since the earliest days of this forum, when the question was first asked. Shouldn't be any trouble now with that. We're just trying to keep the name out of the posts themselves. But the best info, the court documents do include his name, and they are publicly available.

It's not our fault that the court didn't decide to retract his name - but there's nothing wrong with linking to them. Good info.

[Good_Gawd]

Hawk, I had not even thought about him taking that stuff up to the house when he was supposed to be leaving again...OMG, that does not make sense. You are so right! I also wonder about the two different brands of cigarettes.

Maybe the kid dropped the camels and lighter out of his pocket. Some kids start smoking early right?
Question What kind did Tim smoke?

[Good_Gawd]

Definitely NOT a dumb question. Many of us are asking that - and there are no pleasant answers that I can think of. Only if the therapist is thinking in a direction like he's a member of the prosecutorial team, trying to create and defend an opinion against the opposition (the defense) - rather than thinking of himself as a professional giving his best professional opinion, no matter which 'side' it helps or hurts - can it make any difference to him what the other doctor says.

By asking for an IQ? Why didn't he do an IQ test on him? Did he forget?
What is that Dr's IQ?

[Hawk]

Definitely NOT a dumb question. Many of us are asking that - and there are no pleasant answers that I can think of. Only if the therapist is thinking in a direction like he's a member of the prosecutorial team, trying to create and defend an opinion against the opposition (the defense) - rather than thinking of himself as a professional giving his best professional opinion, no matter which 'side' it helps or hurts - can it make any difference to him what the other doctor says.

Maybe, sometimes, they confuse Hypocritical with Hippocratic.
Of course them being highly educated and all an accusation like that would be preposterous.

Excuse me, please, for the indiscretion.

[bkwits]

Maybe the kid dropped the camels and lighter out of his pocket. Some kids start smoking early right?
Question What kind did Tim smoke?


I assume that was a bit of sarcasm. :rolleyes:

[Good_Gawd]

Does Roman's girlfriend smoke? Tiffany? The barmaid?

I thought they just chewed.

[Hawk]

Maybe the kid dropped the camels and lighter out of his pocket. Some kids start smoking early right?
Question What kind did Tim smoke?

Camels, and/or Marlboro. Or at least those are listed on the evidence sheets.

[Hawk]

I thought they just chewed.

No, that's the women cops.

[PensiveOne]

Maybe the kid dropped the camels and lighter out of his pocket. Some kids start smoking early right?
Question What kind did Tim smoke?

Are you just trolling?

[bkwits]

Are you just trolling?


Looks like that to me. :thumbup:

[Hawk]

"He's a strong kid". Well, ........yeah!

http://www.eastvalleytribune.com:80/story/134101

[Good_Gawd]

No, that's the women cops.

Thanks Owl!

[Hawk]

Thanks Owl!


I read his posts. I think he's my cousin, 'Hoot'.
Birds of a feather and that sort of thing.

[IAMME]

Someone said that most smokers are very brand loyal, as a smoker myself I would have to agree with that, although I know a few ppl who will buy whichever generic cig's are cheapest, I have NEVER seen this with the more expensive brands....The only other exception I can ever recall seeing in smokers who may smoke more than one brand is someone who generally smokes one type of regular cig's but occasionally will smoke menthol.

I cannot even imagine smoking a pack of camels if that was not your regular brand....they are strong, and they hurt my lungs.....In a pinch I could prb smoke marlboro reds, but stick to lights bc it is alot less painful....

Something else that someone mentioned a few pages or maybe a thread back was where was Nellie? I think I read somewhere but I cannot recall where, that when Tiffany got there she put the dog in her jeep, anyone else remember that, and remember where it was? That led me to believe the dog was outside.....

I would like to see them go in that house and pick five articles of clothing, just any five at random, and test them for GSR.....just to see how much is floating around in there....


I asked this a few days ago, but didnt get or didnt see an answer....

How long does it usually take for them to post the hearing transcripts??

[JD1974]

I asked the same thing yesterday. No answer yesterday.
But, I'm thinking because he didn't want to administer the test again. However, I think all the pros is asking for is the scores for that IQ test. That might be ok since the defense report came back as incompetent. On the other hand the pros expert may just want to get paid for doing less than required.


I posted a few days ago that I bet the pros doctor wanted to know what tests the def doctor did to see if they were all standard. See if there is anything he can refute in his report.

[bkwits]

Someone said that most smokers are very brand loyal, as a smoker myself I would have to agree with that, although I know a few ppl who will buy whichever generic cig's are cheapest, I have NEVER seen this with the more expensive brands....The only other exception I can ever recall seeing in smokers who may smoke more than one brand is someone who generally smokes one type of regular cig's but occasionally will smoke menthol.

I cannot even imagine smoking a pack of camels if that was not your regular brand....they are strong, and they hurt my lungs.....In a pinch I could prb smoke marlboro reds, but stick to lights bc it is alot less painful....

Something else that someone mentioned a few pages or maybe a thread back was where was Nellie? I think I read somewhere but I cannot recall where, that when Tiffany got there she put the dog in her jeep, anyone else remember that, and remember where it was? That led me to believe the dog was outside.....

I would like to see them go in that house and pick five articles of clothing, just any five at random, and test them for GSR.....just to see how much is floating around in there....


I asked this a few days ago, but didnt get or didnt see an answer....

How long does it usually take for them to post the hearing transcripts??

The child said that he let Nellie out when he came home and found Tim lying on the porch. I would assume that she was still outside when LE arrived and Tiffany came home.

[muska]

I believe you can use the red triangle at the top right of your post.

Thank you Bkwits! I saw that Details said that we don't have to worry about bringing over articles with the boy's name because a lot have it in them. I had sent a message to Coldwater before seeing that message. I'll know for the future.

Hawk - Did you see Bkwits message? That red triangle works. :smile:

[Hawk]

Someone said that most smokers are very brand loyal, as a smoker myself I would have to agree with that, although I know a few ppl who will buy whichever generic cig's are cheapest, I have NEVER seen this with the more expensive brands....The only other exception I can ever recall seeing in smokers who may smoke more than one brand is someone who generally smokes one type of regular cig's but occasionally will smoke menthol.

I cannot even imagine smoking a pack of camels if that was not your regular brand....they are strong, and they hurt my lungs.....In a pinch I could prb smoke marlboro reds, but stick to lights bc it is alot less painful....

Something else that someone mentioned a few pages or maybe a thread back was where was Nellie? I think I read somewhere but I cannot recall where, that when Tiffany got there she put the dog in her jeep, anyone else remember that, and remember where it was? That led me to believe the dog was outside.....

I would like to see them go in that house and pick five articles of clothing, just any five at random, and test them for GSR.....just to see how much is floating around in there....


I asked this a few days ago, but didnt get or didnt see an answer....

How long does it usually take for them to post the hearing transcripts??

There was a full pack of Camel regulars, a lighter, and a full pack of Marlboros found on Mr. Romans. (Reckon he was partial to both. Could depend on the price, even though like you say, smokers aren't usually two branded).

Mr. Romero had a box of Skoal chewing tobacco (I think it's snuff) in his pocket. No cigarettes.

The boy let Nellie out of her cage and I guess she was loose when LE arrived before Mrs. Romero put her in the jeep.

The transcripts are released whenever the busy folks in Apache County get around to it.

[bkwits]

I read his posts. I think he's my cousin, 'Hoot'.
Birds of a feather and that sort of thing.

What a HOOT :laugh:

[muska]

I posted a few days ago that I bet the pros doctor wanted to know what tests the def doctor did to see if they were all standard. See if there is anything he can refute in his report.

I looked Dr. Johnson up online. He's a child, adolescent, adult and forensic psychiatrist. You'd think it would look pretty ridiculous to his patients if he were to say a child who is barely 9 is competent to understand court proceedings and assist his lawyer in a double murder trial. If he says that I will lose a little faith in that field as well; I'm still hoping that child psychiatrists are actually looking out for children.

[Details]

I posted a few days ago that I bet the pros doctor wanted to know what tests the def doctor did to see if they were all standard. See if there is anything he can refute in his report.If he's just giving his professional, unbiased, opinion, he shouldn't be thinking about what he can refute. He should simply be giving the truth as he sees it - no matter who disagrees.

[Hawk]

I looked Dr. Johnson up online. He's a child, adolescent, adult and forensic psychiatrist. You'd think it would look pretty ridiculous to his patients if he were to say a child who is barely 9 is competent to understand court proceedings and assist his lawyer in a double murder trial. If he says that I will lose a little faith in that field as well; I'm still hoping that child psychiatrists are actually looking out for children.

And that Judges do too.

[ExPI]

http://fe11.story.media.ac4.yahoo.com/news/us/story/ap/20090114/ap_on_go_su_co/scotus_evidence

According to this Supreme Court ruling. The evidence is valid because the cops thought the search warrant was valid. Scary!

[JD1974]

If you want to get ahold of Coldwater, report the post then explain why...I reported my post on the MS vs Tyler board because it had said MI vs Tyler, just explained that I wanted to let her know the title of the thread was incorrect.

[PensiveOne]

There was a full pack of Camel regulars, a lighter, and a full pack of Marlboros found on Mr. Romans. (Reckon he was partial to both. Could depend on the price, even though like you say, smokers aren't usually two branded).

Mr. Romero had a box of Skoal chewing tobacco (I think it's snuff) in his pocket. No cigarettes.

The boy let Nellie out of her cage and I guess she was loose when LE arrived before Mrs. Romero put her in the jeep.

The transcripts are released whenever the busy folks in Apache County get around to it.

Hawk, you brought up one more thing that makes me think he was scared and not guilty. He let Nellie out of her cage. Why would he do that if he just killed two men and just wanted to run to the neighbors house? He may have done it in case whoever killed his dad and TR was still out there and he thought the dog was some small form of protection...don't ya think?

[JD1974]

If he's just giving his professional, unbiased, opinion, he shouldn't be thinking about what he can refute. He should simply be giving the truth as he sees it - no matter who disagrees.

Absolutely correct! It always bothers me when a doctor asks for outside evidence to rule on something when they can rule on it based on merits alone.

[Jacobtk]

http://fe11.story.media.ac4.yahoo.com/news/us/story/ap/20090114/ap_on_go_su_co/scotus_evidence

According to this Supreme Court ruling. The evidence is valid because the cops thought the search warrant was valid. Scary!

I think that the motion to suppress the search warrant was just the boy's attorneys covering all possible avenues. It is not very likely that the search warrant would be thrown out nor is it likely that the officers who searched the home thought the warrant was invalid, so all the evidence would likely come in. I would be wary, however, if the prosecutors agree to drop any evidence. I would want that evidence tested just to be sure they were not trying to hide exculpatory evidence.

[JD1974]

http://fe11.story.media.ac4.yahoo.com/news/us/story/ap/20090114/ap_on_go_su_co/scotus_evidence

According to this Supreme Court ruling. The evidence is valid because the cops thought the search warrant was valid. Scary!


Wow, that is plain dirty! Have someone get a warrant that they know is not correct and hand it off to someone else who honestly doesn't know it's not good and it can be used....

[Hawk]

http://fe11.story.media.ac4.yahoo.com/news/us/story/ap/20090114/ap_on_go_su_co/scotus_evidence

According to this Supreme Court ruling. The evidence is valid because the cops thought the search warrant was valid. Scary!

But this ruling addresses police mistakes. The issue at hand is the Magistrate granting a warrant while knowing the murder victim. These are entirely different.

[Hawk]

Hawk, you brought up one more thing that makes me think he was scared and not guilty. He let Nellie out of her cage. Why would he do that if he just killed two men and just wanted to run to the neighbors house? He may have done it in case whoever killed his dad and TR was still out there and he thought the dog was some small form of protection...don't ya think?

My guess would be that he was instructed by his dad to walk, or at least give the pup relief, when he came home from school. I think he let her out (outside the house) long before the murders.

Just my opinion.

[Details]

Wow, that is plain dirty! Have someone get a warrant that they know is not correct and hand it off to someone else who honestly doesn't know it's not good and it can be used....That wasn't dirty. ??? The database was out of date, they didn't know the warrant was no good any more, and when they served it, they found out about a different crime. No one knew the warrant was not correct.

And the court decision states that had this been deliberate, malice, someone knowing it was not correct and handing it off to use anyways, that their decision would have been different.

[PensiveOne]

My guess would be that he was instructed by his dad to walk, or at least give the pup relief, when he came home from school. I think he let her out (outside the house) long before the murders.

Just my opinion.

It doesn't sound like they let her run loose. They had a pen outside and he walked her on a leash, so if she was running loose he must have let her out with him when he ran from the house. I of course am just guessing because I haven't seen the details on where the dog was when the cops arrived anywhere.

[JD1974]

That wasn't dirty. ??? The database was out of date, they didn't know the warrant was no good any more, and when they served it, they found out about a different crime. No one knew the warrant was not correct.

And the court decision states that had this been deliberate, malice, someone knowing it was not correct and handing it off to use anyways, that their decision would have been different.


OH thanks!!! I couldn't read it because it didn't pull up. Was going by the comment from the poster with the link.

[Details]

My guess would be that he was instructed by his dad to walk, or at least give the pup relief, when he came home from school. I think he let her out (outside the house) long before the murders.

Just my opinion.He just found Tim dead, likely his Dad too - he's in shock, partly on autopilot, partly getting whatever comfort and security he can have from thinking the dog is there to protect him. IMO.

[bkwits]

My guess would be that he was instructed by his dad to walk, or at least give the pup relief, when he came home from school. I think he let her out (outside the house) long before the murders.

Just my opinion.


So the dog was running around loose for an hour and a half. There is no fence only an outside kennel.

Do you think he put the dog in the kennel before the shootings?

[Hawk]

It doesn't sound like they let her run loose. They had a pen outside and he walked her on a leash, so if she was running loose he must have let her out with him when he ran from the house. I of couse am just guessing because I haven't seen the details on where the dog was when the cops arrived anywhere.

I'm guessing too, but the pup looks to be four or five months old and probably pretty rowdy. There isn't a leash law in St. Johns, so the outside cage was probably used earlier in the dogs life when the boy was outside.
I think he is asked in the interrogation where the dog was and he says he let her out.

[Details]

OH thanks!!! I couldn't read it because it didn't pull up. Was going by the comment from the poster with the link.Yeah. Old warrant, was recalled, but the recall didn't make it through to their system due to some glitch, police executed it, found Meth and a gun, he was charged for that.

The ruling says if this was planned, or if the systems were generally bad, their ruling would have been different - but for an error, and one that was not systemic, no reason to exclude the evidence.

[ExPI]

The dog and the rifle fall into the same category as far as the early police reports go. They are not mentioned at all. Sgt. Rodriguez tells Det. Neckle about the body and more shells inside but does not mention the dog or the rife.

[Hawk]

He just found Tim dead, likely his Dad too - he's in shock, partly on autopilot, partly getting whatever comfort and security he can have from thinking the dog is there to protect him. IMO.

Could be. There again, had nurse Cratchett been patiently fact finding and asked pertinent questions everyone would know the answers to these important questions. Now we may never know.
But the nurse had to rush off to her jailer job to intimidate the inmates.

[Details]

The dog and the rifle fall into the same category as far as the early police reports go. They are not mentioned at all. Sgt. Rodriguez tells Det. Neckle about the body and more shells inside but does not mention the dog or the rife.Yeah. I'm not so sure about anything with the dog. You'd think they'd mention it, you'd think the dog would have had her prints in the evidence, and all over the place - interesting different smells, a human not paying attention - you'd see smears and such.

The killer could have let the puppy out back to keep it out of the way. I'd never trust a dog to just sit around as you fire a gun into the person who fills their food dish. Of course, any of the many people who knew the victims could have easily moved the dog outside before they got home. Anyone who didn't know the dog could have picked up the kennel, and opened the door at the back door to let it out safely.

[PensiveOne]

I'm guessing too, but the pup looks to be four or five months old and probably pretty rowdy. There isn't a leash law in St. Johns, so the outside cage was probably used earlier in the dogs life when the boy was outside.
I think he is asked in the interrogation where the dog was and he says he let her out.

No, he says she was in the cage, then he let her out. It was a neighbor on a video that said he walked her on a leash. I don't think they would let her out loose where they lived whether there were leash laws or not, it looked like it could be a busy corner.

[PensiveOne]

The dog and the rifle fall into the same category as far as the early police reports go. They are not mentioned at all. Sgt. Rodriguez tells Det. Neckle about the body and more shells inside but does not mention the dog or the rife.

Keystone cops.

[Hawk]

No, he says she was in the cage, then he let her out. It was a neighbor on a video that said he walked her on a leash. I don't think they would let her out loose where they lived whether there were leash laws or not, it looked like it could be a busy corner.

If the boxer pup was locked in that little cage during the gunshots that killed Mr. Romero she would have been going berserk!!!!!!!!!
When she was let out she didn't settle down right away. Not for awhile.
Please believe me on this one.
Not opinion.

[bkwits]

If the boxer pup was locked in that little cage during the gunshots that killed Mr. Romero she would have been going berserk!!!!!!!!!
When she was let out she didn't settle down right away. Not for awhile.
Please believe me on this one.
Not opinion.

Maybe he was going beserk.

[bkwits]

Has it ever been said at precisely what time the child got off the school bus that afternoon?

[Hawk]

Maybe he was going beserk.

Yes. That would explain the commotion that Mr. Romans heard and passed on to his wife. Not gunshots, or even the boys urgent pleading, but the dog throwing a fit.

If the boy did the killings then had the presence of mind to compassionately let the excited dog out of the cage it raises honest questions about the boys priority placement mental capacity.

Now that's just a dumb guess.

[JD1974]

If the dog was throwing a fit and Tim heard it, how did he not hear gun shots?

[Hawk]

If the dog was throwing a fit and Tim heard it, how did he not hear gun shots?

Because the shots were fired from upstairs behind three walls (one exterior and two interior). The dog was three feet inside the opened front door.

[GentleBreeze]

Maybe someone can explain this to me.

We can assume that Tim Romans was shot and killed sometime between 4:55 p.m and 5:00 p.m. (when neighbors say they heard gunshots) The boy ran to the neighbors house and the 911 call came in at 5:03 p.m., so how could the boy come upon Tim after he was shot, then hunt for his father, find him and sit by his body for 30 minutes or even 10 minutes? Or do any of the other things he said he did, like letting the dog out of the cage? Getting the gun out of the closet and shooting at the fleeing car?

imo

[Good_Gawd]

There was a full pack of Camel regulars, a lighter, and a full pack of Marlboros found on Mr. Romans. (Reckon he was partial to both. Could depend on the price, even though like you say, smokers aren't usually two branded).

Mr. Romero had a box of Skoal chewing tobacco (I think it's snuff) in his pocket. No cigarettes.

The boy let Nellie out of her cage and I guess she was loose when LE arrived before Mrs. Romero put her in the jeep.

The transcripts are released whenever the busy folks in Apache County get around to it.

Do you have a link where it says both packs of cigs were on Tim?

[Details]

As was mentioned last time we talked on this - kids have no sense of time - none at all - in the best of circumstances. After finding Tim and his father dead, I can imagine my own sense of time would be insanely warped.

[GentleBreeze]

As was mentioned last time we talked on this - kids have no sense of time - none at all - in the best of circumstances. After finding Tim and his father dead, I can imagine my own sense of time would be insanely warped.

But that is the point Details, there was simply no time for any of those things to occur. If he left at 5:01 lets say, going to the neighbors house, where the friend had to call their father to come home and the 911 call came in at 5:03 pm it shows both murders had just happened when he left imo.

And it isn't about his time or what he thought the time interval was. It is the time when we know Tim was alive and when the gunshots were heard around 5 pm.


imoo

[Hawk]

We aren't doing very well at figuring out, pro or con, where the cigarette pack, lighter, and inhaler came from. If Mr. Romans was worried about what was going on in the house he'd left that crap in his truck. Why did he have it in his hand anyway? Or did he?
]If he'd felt threatened he'd have grabbed that mcDaddy .45 acp from the truck console and cut loose. (A .22 vs a .45 is like being hit by pee-wee Herman vs Mike Tyson). From what I've read he wouldn't have been shy about it.

All this comparative talk about other cases evidentiary wise doesn't compare.
These were two YOUNG, HEALTHY, HARD CORE, CONSTRUCTION WORKERS. That owned guns. Street wise in a small town.

[Good_Gawd]

But that is the point Details, there was simply no time for any of those things to occur. If he left at 5:01 lets say, going to the neighbors house, where the friend had to call their father to come home and the 911 call came in at 5:03 pm it shows both murders had just happened when he left imo.

And it isn't his time. It is the time when we know Tim was alive and when the gunshots were heard around 5 pm.


imooWhere are you getting 5:03 from?

[Hawk]

Do you have a link where it says both packs of cigs were on Tim?

I should get librarian fees.

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/searchwarrantpropertysupp%20BO.pdf

[Good_Gawd]

We aren't doing very well at figuring out, pro or con, where the cigarette pack, lighter, and inhaler came from. If Mr. Romans was worried about what was going on the house he'd left that crap in his truck. Why did he have it in his hand anyway? Or did he?
]If he'd felt threatened he'd have grabbed that mcDaddy .45 acp from the truck console and cut loose. (A .22 vs a .45 is like being hit by pee-wee Herman vs Mike Tyson). From what I've read he wouldn't have been shy about it.

All this comparative talk about other cases evidentiary wise doesn't compare.
These were two YOUNG, HEALTHY, HARD CORE, CONSTRUCTION WORKERS. That owned guns. Street wise in a small town.

So you make it up on that other post that Tim was found with both packs? I don't understand.

[Hawk]

So you make it up on that other post that Tim was found with both packs? I don't understand.

I'm sorry, I was referring to the items found on the ground (1st post), not the contents of his pockets.

[GentleBreeze]

Where are you getting 5:03 from?

Because if I am not mistaken that was the time listed in the court documents.

imoo

[muska]

Where are you getting 5:03 from?

I don't remember this as the exact time the teenager's father called. I can't think of his name, sorry. I thought it was 5:07 - not that it makes much difference.

I thought 5:03 was the time that the police chief gave early on. Then I think he turned out to be wrong.

I'm tired so I may be wrong.

[Good_Gawd]

I should get librarian fees.

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/searchwarrantpropertysupp%20BO.pdf

Doesn't say they were found on him. They are just on a list.

No fees for you.

[Details]

Maybe someone can explain this to me.

We can assume that Tim Romans was shot and killed sometime between 4:55 p.m and 5:00 p.m. (when neighbors say they heard gunshots) The boy ran to the neighbors house and the 911 call came in at 5:03 p.m., so how could the boy come upon Tim after he was shot, then hunt for his father, find him and sit by his body for 30 minutes or even 10 minutes? Or do any of the other things he said he did, like letting the dog out of the cage? Getting the gun out of the closet and shooting at the fleeing car?

imoSimple and most likely reason - he didn't do what he said he did - for most of the versions of the confession they convinced him to say. He was being asked questions, and trying to make an answer that would satisfy the questioners, so he could go. I only see his first story as being likely to be true - the rest is just an attempt to satisfy adults who have told him the truth wasn't a good enough answer for them.

[Hawk]

Doesn't say they were found on him. They are just on a list.

No fees for you.

These are items taken from the bodies. (No fee required).

[Good_Gawd]

Because if I am not mistaken that was the time listed in the court documents.

imoo

1703

http://www.azcentral.com/ic/pdf/1126stjohnsuppreport.pdf

[Good_Gawd]

These are items taken from the bodies. (No fee required).

Then why did the officer say they were on the ground and that he had left them there?

[muska]

Simple and most likely reason - he didn't do what he said he did - for most of the versions of the confession they convinced him to say. He was being asked questions, and trying to make an answer that would satisfy the questioners, so he could go. I only see his first story as being likely to be true - the rest is just an attempt to satisfy adults who have told him the truth wasn't a good enough answer for them.

And from one of his first sentences, we know he has little sense of time. He said, more or less, he was going to walk around until 5PM because his mom did not come on Fridays for 3 or 4 hours. He didn't even know how many hours there were before 5PM

[Hawk]

Then why did the officer say they were on the ground and that he had left them there?


I think we're talking about two separate things. The lighter, cigarettes, and inhaler were left on the ground and not taken as evidence. The items on the list were taken from Mr. Romans pockets.

[Good_Gawd]

I think we're talking about two separate things. The lighter, cigarettes, and inhaler were left on the ground and not taken as evidence. The items on the list were taken from Mr. Romans pockets.

The camels lighter and inhaler are on the same list.
Don't forget the Jolly Ranchers.

[Hawk]

And from one of his first sentences, we know he has little sense of time. He said, more or less, he was going to walk around until 5PM because his mom did not come on Fridays for 3 or 4 hours. He didn't even know how many hours there were before 5PM

It wasn't Friday, but that doesn't matter. Was he not allowed to go into the house for an hour and a half until a parent was there? I don't know. Maybe he was instructed to go home (That's what the testimony says).

He was neglected all the way around. Step-mom could have picked him up then gone the two miles to do her shopping. That's what my family would have done (when Grandma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy).
What the h... kind of family is this?

[Details]

And from one of his first sentences, we know he has little sense of time. He said, more or less, he was going to walk around until 5PM because his mom did not come on Fridays for 3 or 4 hours. He didn't even know how many hours there were before 5PMYep. As I see it, he came home, from the instant he saw Tim, he'd obviously be in shock, in an altered state. He saw his dad - maybe nudged him with his toe, maybe sat by him for something that felt like forever, maybe let the dog out, maybe didn't and just tried to fill in that blank he had with something he'd normally do when he got home. But obviously what happened in reality did not take much time.

Shots heard at 5ish - that's a time with a great deal of range.

[GentleBreeze]

Simple and most likely reason - he didn't do what he said he did - for most of the versions of the confession they convinced him to say. He was being asked questions, and trying to make an answer that would satisfy the questioners, so he could go. I only see his first story as being likely to be true - the rest is just an attempt to satisfy adults who have told him the truth wasn't a good enough answer for them.

Didn't he say at first saw Tim and then he came in and found his father and sat down beside him and cried for 30 minutes?

Even that cant be true imo. He did not have time to sit by his father at all imo and be at his friend's house, with the friend's father having to come home and called 911 just minutes after the gunshots were fired.

If what he first said was true then he had to come in after Tim Romans was already shot and that would have to be around 5 pm already.

imo

[Good_Gawd]

It wasn't Friday, but that doesn't matter. Was he not allowed to go into the house until a parent was there? I don't know.

He was neglected all the way around. Step-mom could have picked him up then gone the two miles to do her shopping.
What the h... kind of family is this?

Does it seem they lived a family life to you? It does not to me.
Vinnie may have wanted custody, but did he really want that boy?

[ChildsVOICE]

Maybe someone can explain this to me.

We can assume that Tim Romans was shot and killed sometime between 4:55 p.m and 5:00 p.m. (when neighbors say they heard gunshots) The boy ran to the neighbors house and the 911 call came in at 5:03 p.m., so how could the boy come upon Tim after he was shot, then hunt for his father, find him and sit by his body for 30 minutes or even 10 minutes? Or do any of the other things he said he did, like letting the dog out of the cage? Getting the gun out of the closet and shooting at the fleeing car?

imo

I have an 8 year old son plus three other children all the way to 18 yrs old.

At this age, they still cannot, accurately, relay time in frames. I knew right away that when he said he was walking around the neighborhood for such and such time and that he sat beside his dad for about 30 mins, he was not accurately portraying the real time. You've just got to be around 8 year olds to catch that.

Also, when you've been traumatized time goes in slow motion. The time he walked around the neighborhood is more accurate than the time he relays AFTER or DURING the traumatized event.

It may have seemed forever to him. He was laying/sitting beside his dead and bloody father.

And, again this goes back to 8 year olds being able to wait...laying or sitting beside his father with nothing else going on, seems like a very long time to a child of 8 years old. These are reasons his time sense is exaggerated during those few minutes. It seemed like forever to him.

That is why I do not believe he would have been capable of sitting there just waiting for the men to come home from work with a loaded weapon...just waiting for them to walk through the door. We don't even know if the tv (on kid's show) or video games were turned on anywhere in the house indicating he had been there prior to what he states.

Has anybody ever asked the boy if he was expecting the men to come home or did he know they were supposed to be going from work to the second constuction side job? The boy knew about the step mother not coming home till 5 p.m. Would the father have told the boy "Tonight I'm going to do some work at so & so's house after work so I won't be home till late? Go ahead and walk the dog? Get your homework started?" Most parents would. Would the boy have overheard the father tell the step mother he had another job to do after he got off work?

The men stopped by the house to pick up something. Was this an unexpected stop? Did they realize they forgot a particular tool, etc? Most construction workers I know do not like stopping by home on their way to a second job site because they want to get their work done asap and they know if they stop by the house when wifey and kidey are home its going to take a lot to get back out the door, therefore, take that much longer to get the work done. Guys I know don't like to work second jobs and want to get them done asap and don't like to be side tracked.

Has anyone verified that the men were really on their way to a second construction job or was this a cover story to get to go to the bar? to a mistress? other?

Also, something I noticed when I went back and listened to the interrogation again...the boy on several occasions tells the police about sentimental items the father and step mother have given him. He describes them to Officer Neckels when she asks him to draw a picture of his room. He describes location of furniture and hones in on specific items of things he's been giving by the parents. I'll have to look it over again, I don't think he even says anything or much about any prized toys, video games, etc. ...Just items that would hold sentimental value.

That sure doesn't sound like someone who just killed two men out of rage or frustration , anger or other.

[Details]

It wasn't Friday, but that doesn't matter. Was he not allowed to go into the house until a parent was there? I don't know.

He was neglected all the way around. Step-mom could have picked him up then gone the two miles to do her shopping.
What the h... kind of family is this?Either not allowed - or more likely, IMO, didn't want to go home with no one there. More fun to walk around, have some freedom. Pretty young for that - but that's their choices.

[Perplexed1]

Simple and most likely reason - he didn't do what he said he did - for most of the versions of the confession they convinced him to say. He was being asked questions, and trying to make an answer that would satisfy the questioners, so he could go. I only see his first story as being likely to be true - the rest is just an attempt to satisfy adults who have told him the truth wasn't a good enough answer for them.

Why can grown men, the judge, prosecuters, not see it this way???:ohmy:

[Hawk]

The camels lighter and inhaler are on the same list.
Don't forget the Jolly Ranchers.

Yes, but these aren't the items left on the ground.

[GentleBreeze]

1703

http://www.azcentral.com/ic/pdf/1126stjohnsuppreport.pdf

Thank you. So it did come in at 1703 or 5:03.

[ChildsVOICE]

I have an 8 year old son plus three other children all the way to 18 yrs old.

At this age, they still cannot, accurately, relay time in frames. I knew right away that when he said he was walking around the neighborhood for such and such time and that he sat beside his dad for about 30 mins, he was not accurately portraying the real time. You've just got to be around 8 year olds to catch that.

Also, when you've been traumatized time goes in slow motion. The time he walked around the neighborhood is more accurate than the time he relays AFTER or DURING the traumatized event.

It may have seemed forever to him. He was laying/sitting beside his dead and bloody father.

And, again this goes back to 8 year olds being able to wait...laying or sitting beside his father with nothing else going on, seems like a very long time to a child of 8 years old. These are reasons his time sense is exaggerated during those few minutes. It seemed like forever to him.

That is why I do not believe he would have been capable of sitting there just waiting for the men to come home from work with a loaded weapon...just waiting for them to walk through the door. We don't even know if the tv (on kid's show) or video games were turned on anywhere in the house indicating he had been there prior to what he states.

Has anybody ever asked the boy if he was expecting the men to come home or did he know they were supposed to be going from work to the second constuction side job? The boy knew about the step mother not coming home till 5 p.m. Would the father have told the boy "Tonight I'm going to do some work at so & so's house after work so I won't be home till late? Go ahead and walk the dog? Get your homework started?" Most parents would. Would the boy have overheard the father tell the step mother he had another job to do after he got off work?

The men stopped by the house to pick up something. Was this an unexpected stop? Did they realize they forgot a particular tool, etc? Most construction workers I know do not like stopping by home on their way to a second job site because they want to get their work done asap and they know if they stop by the house when wifey and kidey are home its going to take a lot to get back out the door, therefore, take that much longer to get the work done. Guys I know don't like to work second jobs and want to get them done asap and don't like to be side tracked.

Has anyone verified that the men were really on their way to a second construction job or was this a cover story to get to go to the bar? to a mistress? other?

Also, something I noticed when I went back and listened to the interrogation again...the boy on several occasions tells the police about sentimental items the father and step mother have given him. He describes them to Officer Neckels when she asks him to draw a picture of his room. He describes location of furniture and hones in on specific items of things he's been giving by the parents. I'll have to look it over again, I don't think he even says anything or much about any prized toys, video games, etc. ...Just items that would hold sentimental value.

That sure doesn't sound like someone who just killed two men out of rage or frustration , anger or other.

More to add...

The boy seems surprised when he relays to the police officers that he saw the door open and Tim's truck. He called out "Tim. Tim are you home?" In the video he sounds very surprised to see the men home. I believe he was not expecting them to be home at that time. So, how could he lay in wait for them?

[Good_Gawd]

More to add...

The boy seems surprised when he relays to the police officers that he saw the door open and Tim's truck. He called out "Tim. Tim are you home?" In the video he sounds very surprised to see the men home. I believe he was not expecting them to be home at that time. So, how could he lay in wait for them?

You are so right. I never thought of that.

[Hawk]

Either not allowed - or more likely, IMO, didn't want to go home with no one there. More fun to walk around, have some freedom. Pretty young for that - but that's their choices.

Well, I didn't want to get personal, but do you think the boy was afraid to go into the house alone? I mean on an average day.
My 8 year old grandson would be. So would my 10 year old granddaughter. And my other kids and grandkids at that age.
When me and my five boy cousins were that age (50 years ago) we were all scared to go upstairs at Granny's house.
We never knew, or cared, what the clock said. It was either daylight or dark.
When it was time to get up, eat, dress, study, shine our shoes, mow the lawn, or take the dreaded bath there was always a grownup there to tell us. We tried to avoid all of them.
Except eating, of course.

And that's the truth.

[Details]

Didn't he say at first saw Tim and then he came in and found his father and sat down beside him and cried for 30 minutes?

Even that cant be true imo. He did not have time to sit by his father at all imo and be at his friend's house, with the friend's father having to come home and called 911 just minutes after the gunshots were fired.

If what he first said was true then he had to come in after Tim Romans was already shot and that would have to be around 5 pm already.

imoHe did have time to sit there - not for long - but time to sit, sure. 30 minutes or 30 seconds - in that state of shock, I don't find it surprising if he can't tell the difference between the two.

I've had that go both ways when I get some shocking news (and nothing so bad as this) - I sit there and think about it, and when I come out of that, sometimes a surprisingly long time has passed that felt short, other times I feel I've been sitting there for a long time, and the clock shows a mere few minutes.

5ish. That's the time the shots were heard. Take the boy's story as correct, and he comes home just as it's done - car pulling away in a hurry, walks in, sees Tim, sees Dad, nudges him with his foot or sits and cries for a few moments before he realizes he needs help and goes to his friends house.

This takes some time - but then so would killing Tim, under the theory that he's the killer. Not much difference there.

[Details]

Well, I didn't want to get personal, but do you think the boy was afraid to go into the house alone? I mean on an average day.
My 8 year old grandson would be. So would my 10 year old granddaughter. And my other grandkids at that age.
When me and my five boy cousins were that age (50 years ago) we were all scared to go upstairs at Granny's house.

Just a thought.I was going to leave that idea alone too - but I remember being home alone when I was first allowed to (and it wasn't at 8 years old!). It was a little spooky.

[Good_Gawd]

Yes, but these aren't the items left on the ground.

Then I'd have to say the killer dropped some things. But the child didn't drop any shells. What is wrong with this picture?
I'd like to know what kind of cigs Tim smoked.

[Perplexed1]

He did have time to sit there - not for long - but time to sit, sure. 30 minutes or 30 seconds - in that state of shock, I don't find it surprising if he can't tell the difference between the two.

I've had that go both ways when I get some shocking news (and nothing so bad as this) - I sit there and think about it, and when I come out of that, sometimes a surprisingly long time has passed that felt short, other times I feel I've been sitting there for a long time, and the clock shows a mere few minutes.

5ish. That's the time the shots were heard. Take the boy's story as correct, and he comes home just as it's done - car pulling away in a hurry, walks in, sees Tim, sees Dad, nudges him with his foot or sits and cries for a few moments before he realizes he needs help and goes to his friends house.

This takes some time - but then so would killing Tim, under the theory that he's the killer. Not much difference there.

Did the neighbor (Davis?) give an account of what state of mind the boy was in when came for help?

[ChildsVOICE]

Then why did the officer say they were on the ground and that he had left them there?

I believe in the November 7th detention hearing (see transcripts of the hearing) the defense attorney asks the (Sgt R ?) what items were visible in one of the pictures located between TR's head and arm/laying on the ground. The (Sgt?) responded it appears to be a pack of cigarettes, a lighter, and something that looked like it could be an inhaler. The defense attorney asks if it was taken into evidence. He says no. There is a pause. The DA asks where are they. He says still there on the ground. The DA says about evidence and the weather and so on. The (Sgt ?) says they didn't take the cigs into evidence because they found another pack in the truck that was the same brand.

Yeah. These guys really do give Barney Fiffe a bad name.

[muska]

Yep. As I see it, he came home, from the instant he saw Tim, he'd obviously be in shock, in an altered state. He saw his dad - maybe nudged him with his toe, maybe sat by him for something that felt like forever, maybe let the dog out, maybe didn't and just tried to fill in that blank he had with something he'd normally do when he got home. But obviously what happened in reality did not take much time.

Shots heard at 5ish - that's a time with a great deal of range.

And there's a good chance the shooter was just leaving in the small white car which would mean the boy just barely missed the murders. He goes in the house for a minute or two and takes off. I don't think he did many of the things mentioned - he didn't even remember seeing a gun until Avila told him one was on the cage, so it's unlikely he ever really touched it. IMO

[GentleBreeze]

Childs Voice, I do agree with you that children of this age do not know time intervals exactly. I have five children and 11 grandchildren myself. But it really doesn't matter how much time he says he stayed there. There just wasn't enough time for him to stay at all imo.

The point I was trying to make is Romans was killed around 5:00 pm. The 911 call came in at 5:03 pm. Just time enough for the boy to leave after Romans had been shot and go to his friend's house and the father had to come home. Then the father went to the Romero home and saw Romans' body laying there and THEN called 911.

imo

[Hawk]

Then I'd have to say the killer dropped some things. But the child didn't drop any shells. What is wrong with this picture?
I'd like to know what kind of cigs Tim smoked.

Okay. The killer didn't drop any cartridges. Good point. Mr. Romans smoked Camels and Marlboros.

[Jacobtk]

Yeah. I'm not so sure about anything with the dog. You'd think they'd mention it, you'd think the dog would have had her prints in the evidence, and all over the place - interesting different smells, a human not paying attention - you'd see smears and such.

The killer could have let the puppy out back to keep it out of the way. I'd never trust a dog to just sit around as you fire a gun into the person who fills their food dish. Of course, any of the many people who knew the victims could have easily moved the dog outside before they got home. Anyone who didn't know the dog could have picked up the kennel, and opened the door at the back door to let it out safely.

Well, it depends on the dog. There was a tv show that used to run on the Discovery Channel where a former burglar would break into people's homes and literally destroy them. Often times the dogs the people had would either avoid the man or actually be rather friendly towards him. Also, puppies are generally very open to new people, so if there was an unknown person as the shooter, the dog probably would not be bothered by that person. If the family took the dog with them when they went hunting, she probably was used to the sound of gunfire and that might explain why she did not bark.

[Good_Gawd]

I believe in the November 7th detention hearing (see transcripts of the hearing) the defense attorney asks the (Sgt R ?) what items were visible in one of the pictures located between TR's head and arm/laying on the ground. The (Sgt?) responded it appears to be a pack of cigarettes, a lighter, and something that looked like it could be an inhaler. The defense attorney asks if it was taken into evidence. He says no. There is a pause. The DA asks where are they. He says still there on the ground. The DA says about evidence and the weather and so on. The (Sgt ?) says they didn't take the cigs into evidence because they found another pack in the truck that was the same brand.

Yeah. These guys really do give Barney Fiffe a bad name.

I find that so hard to believe. Usually everything near a body is taken into evidence right?

[muska]

Did the neighbor (Davis?) give an account of what state of mind the boy was in when came for help?

I've never seen much...only that he asked to you Mr. Davis's phone to call Tiffany(5:12). Mr. Davis lent him his phone but the boy was upset and unable to "get the words out" so Mr. Davis took the phone and spoke to Tiffany himself. This must have been reported by Mr. Davis to Neckles. It was in her interview, I believe.

[Perplexed1]

I find that so hard to believe. Usually everything near a body is taken into evidence right?

Duh!?! :tongueside:

[Good_Gawd]

I've never seen much...only that he asked to you Mr. Davis's phone to call Tiffany(5:12). Mr. Davis lent him his phone but the boy was upset and unable to "get the words out" so Mr. Davis took the phone and spoke to Tiffany himself. This must have been reported by Mr. Davis to Neckles. It was in her interview, I believe.

That shows state of mind.

[Good_Gawd]

Duh!?! :tongueside:

Not in Gooberville. It is not allowed. It won't fit their theory.

[GentleBreeze]

He did have time to sit there - not for long - but time to sit, sure. 30 minutes or 30 seconds - in that state of shock, I don't find it surprising if he can't tell the difference between the two.

I've had that go both ways when I get some shocking news (and nothing so bad as this) - I sit there and think about it, and when I come out of that, sometimes a surprisingly long time has passed that felt short, other times I feel I've been sitting there for a long time, and the clock shows a mere few minutes.

5ish. That's the time the shots were heard. Take the boy's story as correct, and he comes home just as it's done - car pulling away in a hurry, walks in, sees Tim, sees Dad, nudges him with his foot or sits and cries for a few moments before he realizes he needs help and goes to his friends house.

This takes some time - but then so would killing Tim, under the theory that he's the killer. Not much difference there.

Oh I do think he had time to kill Romans. I just don't believe he had anytime to do anything else but leave the home once that happened and get to his friend's house after then.

Even he said in his interview that his gun is easy to use. It would just take seconds to eject the spent casing and reload and fire again.

imoo

[Perplexed1]

I've never seen much...only that he asked to you Mr. Davis's phone to call Tiffany(5:12). Mr. Davis lent him his phone but the boy was upset and unable to "get the words out" so Mr. Davis took the phone and spoke to Tiffany himself. This must have been reported by Mr. Davis to Neckles. It was in her interview, I believe.

That stupid inTerrorgator rushed to a confession, wasn't it her first day?
Got a confession first time out!!

[Hawk]

Well, it depends on the dog. There was a tv show that used to run on the Discovery Channel where a former burglar would break into people's homes and literally destroy them. Often times the dogs the people had would either avoid the man or actually be rather friendly towards him. Also, puppies are generally very open to new people, so if there was an unknown person as the shooter, the dog probably would not be bothered by that person. If the family took the dog with them when they went hunting, she probably was used to the sound of gunfire and that might explain why she did not bark.

The pup would not have been covering her ears and docile. Watching TV and actually raising dogs is a far different experience. If she was accustomed to gunfire she would have been eager to join the hunt. And extremely agitated not to be party to the hunt.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be rude.

[Good_Gawd]

That stupid inTerrorgator rushed to a confession, wasn't it her first day?
Got a confession first time out!!

The Big one got the confession.

[ChildsVOICE]

Definition & other:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latchkey_kid

American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psyc.:

http://aacap.org/page.ww?name=Home+Alone+Children&section=Facts+for+Families

[GentleBreeze]

That stupid inTerrorgator rushed to a confession, wasn't it her first day?
Got a confession first time out!!

First day as a Detective. She has been on the force about two years iirc, But CA is the one that got most of the confession.

[Good_Gawd]

Oh I do think he had time to kill Romans. I just don't believe he had anytime to do anything else but leave the home once that happened and get to his friend's house after then.

Even he said in his interview that his gun is easy to use. It would just take seconds to eject the spent casing and reload and fire again.

imoo
Are you kidding me? His little legs couldn't fit that timeline. He had time to see them and run. He's a lucky little boy.

[Jacobtk]

Childs Voice, I do agree with you that children of this age do not know time intervals exactly. I have five children and 11 grandchildren myself. But it really doesn't matter how much time he says he stayed there. There just wasn't enough time for him to stay at all imo.

The point I was trying to make is Romans was killed around 5:00 pm. The 911 call came in at 5:03 pm. Just time enough for the boy to leave after Romans had been shot and go to his friend's house and the father had to come home. Then the father went to the Romero home and saw Romans' body laying there and THEN called 911.

imo

All it implies is that the boy could have been present at or right as the shootings ended. The latter would be consistent with his initial statement that as he came home he saw a white car speed away. This would give him enough time to see Romans, go inside and see his father, open the dog's cage and then run over to the neighbor's house. Because of his age, his sense of time cannot be trusted. He may think he sat there when all he might have actually done is tap his father and then leave.

This is why he should have been questioned in a safe environment and asked questions that allowed him to explain what he saw (what happened when you went inside? what did you see? how did you feel? what did you do? what happened next?). As it is now, there is no way to accurately know what the boy did or did not see because of the officers' inept interrogation.

[GentleBreeze]

Definition & other:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latchkey_kid

American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psyc.:

http://aacap.org/page.ww?name=Home+Alone+Children&section=Facts+for+Families


http://www.latchkey-kids.com/latchkey-kids-age-limits.htm


Latchkey Children Age Restrictions By State

[Good_Gawd]

Definition & other:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latchkey_kid

American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psyc.:

http://aacap.org/page.ww?name=Home+Alone+Children&section=Facts+for+Families

Did they have a plan for the child to get out if there was ever a fire? Was he taught anything about safety?

[Hawk]

First day as a Detective. She has been on the force about two years iirc, But CA is the one that got most of the confession.

She didn't get a confession. She coerced a small child into saying what she needed to hear to make her appear as some sort of super cop. She lost an election and probably won't ever win one. She's a dud.

[Perplexed1]

Are you kidding me? His little legs couldn't fit that timeline. He had time to see them and run. He's a lucky little boy.

Obvious to us only, I guess. :sad:

[Hawk]

Are you kidding me? His little legs couldn't fit that timeline. He had time to see them and run. He's a lucky little boy.

He's an awfully unlucky little boy. Whichever way it turns out.

[muska]

Oh I do think he had time to kill Romans. I just don't believe he had anytime to do anything else but leave the home once that happened and get to his friend's house after then.

Even he said in his interview that his gun is easy to use. It would just take seconds to eject the spent casing and reload and fire again.

imoo

Or Romans was dead and he only had time to run through the house quickly, spend a minute or two - no more - and leave.

[Perplexed1]

She didn't get a confession. He coerced a small child into saying what she needed to hear to make her appear as some sort of super cop. She lost an election and probably won't ever win one. She's a dud.

Exactly! Sorry :blushing:

[Jacobtk]

The pup would not have been covering her ears and docile. Watching TV and actually raising dogs is a far different experience. If she was accustomed to gunfire she would have been eager to join the hunt. And extremely agitated not to be party to the hunt.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be rude.

I have two dogs, so I am familiar with how they will behave. It would depend on whether they allowed her to participate. If they just brought her along, then she likely would not react. Even if they did allow her to engage in the hunt, that does not mean the dog would lose it if she was not let out of the cage. She may have tried to get out of the cage, but that does not mean she would have barked and made a lot of noise. It would depend on the dog's general behavior, which none of us knows.

[Good_Gawd]

Obvious to us only, I guess. :sad:

He had an angel on his shoulder, or he would have been dead too. There is a reason for everything, I fully believe that.

[Hawk]

Where the heck is Justice Dawg?

[Details]

Childs Voice, I do agree with you that children of this age do not know time intervals exactly. I have five children and 11 grandchildren myself. But it really doesn't matter how much time he says he stayed there. There just wasn't enough time for him to stay at all imo.

The point I was trying to make is Romans was killed around 5:00 pm. The 911 call came in at 5:03 pm. Just time enough for the boy to leave after Romans had been shot and go to his friend's house and the father had to come home. Then the father went to the Romero home and saw Romans' body laying there and THEN called 911.

imoAdults don't know the time exactly either - the people heard shots around 5ish - that can be 10-15 minutes or more on either side of 5:00. To fit the cell phone timeline - which I'm not sure is accurate - you have to figure that Romans was killed several minutes before 5:00 - unless he hung up on his wife, and dithered in the driveway for many minutes.

Children know time even less exactly, and worse still when there's some traumatic event. 30 seconds could easily feel like 30 minutes to an adult in that situation.

It's a tight timeline no matter what. Whether the boy arrived home right after the killers, or was the killer - it's a very small difference in time. 11 minutes, between cell phone and 911 is the timeline. Tim was likely dead a mere minute or two into that timeline, if not before. That does leave enough time for the killer to flee just as the boy gets home, and a minute would be long enough for him to walk in, see Tim, Dad, stay a few moments beside Dad, then run across the street. There's nothing in this timeline that says which possibility it must be.

[GentleBreeze]

All it implies is that the boy could have been present at or right as the shootings ended. The latter would be consistent with his initial statement that as he came home he saw a white car speed away. This would give him enough time to see Romans, go inside and see his father, open the dog's cage and then run over to the neighbor's house. Because of his age, his sense of time cannot be trusted. He may think he sat there when all he might have actually done is tap his father and then leave.

This is why he should have been questioned in a safe environment and asked questions that allowed him to explain what he saw (what happened when you went inside? what did you see? how did you feel? what did you do? what happened next?). As it is now, there is no way to accurately know what the boy did or did not see because of the officers' inept interrogation.


But it would not be consistent with what he said about seeing Tim and then going in and finding his father and other things he said he did while in the home. The officers weren't leading him then but asking him what he saw and did.

It had to take some time for him to run to the neighbor and tell the other boy what happened........then in turn the other boy had to call his father and tell him and his father had to come home and go over to the Romero home to see Romans body for himself before he called 911.

There just isn't anytime for him to have done any of those things, no matter what he said he did in the home or the amount he said he spent doing them.

[Hawk]

I have two dogs, so I am familiar with how they will behave. It would depend on whether they allowed her to participate. If they just brought her along, then she likely would not react. Even if they did allow her to engage in the hunt, that does not mean the dog would lose it if she was not let out of the cage. She may have tried to get out of the cage, but that does not mean she would have barked and made a lot of noise. It would depend on the dog's general behavior, which none of us knows.

Then you've never had outdoor boxers. Or Retrievers, or beagles, etc.......

[Perplexed1]

He had an angel on his shoulder, or he would have been dead too. There is a reason for everything, I fully believe that.

We must pray that truth comes to light. :smile:

[Details]

When working on the timeline, you must also work out whether or not a little 8 year old boy can clamber over his father's prone body on the stairs while not leaving or picking up any obvious forensic evidence (little boy footprint, or daddy's blood smeared on the clothes), to fire from the other side of the stairs. I've never seen how that was supposed to be remotely physically possible. I've seen some very active, coordinated children - but to jump 5 feet downstairs without leaving a trace, I don't see as possible until they get long gangly teenager legs at the earliest.

[GentleBreeze]

Adults don't know the time exactly either - the people heard shots around 5ish - that can be 10-15 minutes or more on either side of 5:00. To fit the cell phone timeline - which I'm not sure is accurate - you have to figure that Romans was killed several minutes before 5:00 - unless he hung up on his wife, and dithered in the driveway for many minutes.

Children know time even less exactly, and worse still when there's some traumatic event. 30 seconds could easily feel like 30 minutes to an adult in that situation.

It's a tight timeline no matter what. Whether the boy arrived home right after the killers, or was the killer - it's a very small difference in time. 11 minutes, between cell phone and 911 is the timeline. Tim was likely dead a mere minute or two into that timeline, if not before. That does leave enough time for the killer to flee just as the boy gets home, and a minute would be long enough for him to walk in, see Tim, Dad, stay a few moments beside Dad, then run across the street. There's nothing in this timeline that says which possibility it must be.

It can't be off by much at all in this case. The 911 call was already placed at 5:03. Tim was alive at 4:55 so I think the 5:00 pm time is extremely close and accurate.

imoo

[Perplexed1]

When working on the timeline, you must also work out whether or not a little 8 year old boy can clamber over his father's prone body on the stairs while not leaving or picking up any obvious forensic evidence (little boy footprint, or daddy's blood smeared on the clothes), to fire from the other side of the stairs. I've never seen how that was supposed to be remotely physically possible. I've seen some very active, coordinated children - but to jump 5 feet downstairs without leaving a trace, I don't see as possible until they get long gangly teenager legs at the earliest.

Surely this is obvious to the judge and defense. :mellow:

[GentleBreeze]

When working on the timeline, you must also work out whether or not a little 8 year old boy can clamber over his father's prone body on the stairs while not leaving or picking up any obvious forensic evidence (little boy footprint, or daddy's blood smeared on the clothes), to fire from the other side of the stairs. I've never seen how that was supposed to be remotely physically possible. I've seen some very active, coordinated children - but to jump 5 feet downstairs without leaving a trace, I don't see as possible until they get long gangly teenager legs at the earliest.

I think there was room for him to manuver around his father's body. His feet are small imo.

We dont know if he left traces or not. The DA did ask for the boy's footprints, among other things and they already had his shoes.

imoo

[Good_Gawd]

Then you've never had outdoor boxers. Or Retrievers, or beagles, etc.......

I had a beagle once. I wanted to mute it. I gave it away.

[Hawk]

When working on the timeline, you must also work out whether or not a little 8 year old boy can clamber over his father's prone body on the stairs while not leaving or picking up any obvious forensic evidence (little boy footprint, or daddy's blood smeared on the clothes), to fire from the other side of the stairs. I've never seen how that was supposed to be remotely physically possible. I've seen some very active, coordinated children - but to jump 5 feet downstairs without leaving a trace, I don't see as possible until they get long gangly teenager legs at the earliest.

It's easy. Most stairs are 36" wide (building code). Few men, if any, are 36" wide at the shoulders. He didn't have to step over. He could simply step around.
Measure the step width in your home.

[ChildsVOICE]

Because if I am not mistaken that was the time listed in the court documents.

imoo

5:03 or actually 17:03 is documented on the police documents under "Incident reported: 17:03"

for one see
Chief Roy Melnick's report:

http://www.azcentral.com/ic/pdf/1126stjohnsuppreport.pdf
(The chief's wouldn't let me pull it up just now??? Says damaged etc.)

And Officer Neckel's

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/neckel2.pdf
(This one did allow me to pull it up.)

There are many other reports that document the Incident "Date and Time as Weds., 11/05/08 at 17:03"

See "links to case info, police reports, news reports" blog on
http://www.myspace.com/childsHOPEandVOICE for more links to police reports.

[Details]

But it would not be consistent with what he said about seeing Tim and then going in and finding his father and other things he said he did while in the home. The officers weren't leading him then but asking him what he saw and did. ...They were asking him for a new story, new details after he'd already told the story. Embellishment and/or merging what happened that day with other days he got home alone is not unusual nor a surprise.


If he's making up a story about 30 minutes, then there's no reason to believe any different about making up a story about shooting the men - especially when neither fits the facts of the case. His story about 30 minutes is obviously impossible - but possible if we consider a child in shock's grasp of time. His story about shooting the men twice and leaving the gun in the closet is impossible too, given that they were actually shot 4 and 6 times, and the gun was on the dog crate.

[Perplexed1]

It's easy. Most stairs are 36" wide (building code). Few men, if any are 36" wide at the shoulders. He didn't have to step over. He could simply step around.
Measure the step width in your home.

I assume he didn't fall completly straight in center of steps. Six feet of body and legs.

[muska]

Where the heck is Justice Dawg?

I have been wondering that too!!!

[Hawk]

I had a beagle once. I wanted to mute it. I gave it away.

True hunting dogs, like beagles, must hunt or they become uncontrollable. Boxers are working dogs and thrive on activity as well.

[suzanne]

Childs Voice, I do agree with you that children of this age do not know time intervals exactly. I have five children and 11 grandchildren myself. But it really doesn't matter how much time he says he stayed there. There just wasn't enough time for him to stay at all imo.

The point I was trying to make is Romans was killed around 5:00 pm. The 911 call came in at 5:03 pm. Just time enough for the boy to leave after Romans had been shot and go to his friend's house and the father had to come home. Then the father went to the Romero home and saw Romans' body laying there and THEN called 911.

imo

There is no way in H**L All this all could have happened in under 11? minutes.How long did it even take for the father to get home?Then call 911?Then for the police to get there.None of this adds up.None of it.

[ChildsVOICE]

It's easy. Most stairs are 36" wide (building code). Few men, if any, are 36" wide at the shoulders. He didn't have to step over. He could simply step around.
Measure the step width in your home.

These stairs look more narrow than most.

Also, don't forget to add the outstretched arms &/or legs. Plus pool of blood. All these parts would need to be manuvered.

Also, the child would have had to be carrying a long rifle and a box of ammunition while mounting blocked stairs.

I didn't think he could do it going down the stairs. Now, I certainly, do not believe he could do it going up the stairs against gravity.

[Hawk]

I assume he didn't fall completly straight in center of steps. Six feet of body and legs.

I haven't seen the photos, but left, right, or center of the stairs there would be ample room to step around and up or down.
The 5'11" frame was vertical to the stairs. Not cross-wise.

[Perplexed1]

i'm really shocked the main stream media's not talking about this everyday... :cursing:

Nancy Grace needs to jump on this story!:mad:

[Perplexed1]

There is no way in H**L All this all could have happened in under 11? minutes.How long did it even take for the father to get home?Then call 911?Then for the police to get there.None of this adds up.None of it.

AMEN!:thumbsup:

[GentleBreeze]

They were asking him for a new story, new details after he'd already told the story. Embellishment and/or merging what happened that day with other days he got home alone is not unusual nor a surprise.


If he's making up a story about 30 minutes, then there's no reason to believe any different about making up a story about shooting the men - especially when neither fits the facts of the case. His story about 30 minutes is obviously impossible - but possible if we consider a child in shock's grasp of time. His story about shooting the men twice and leaving the gun in the closet is impossible too, given that they were actually shot 4 and 6 times, and the gun was on the dog crate.

I was talking about when he first told his story about seeing Tim and going in. I thought it was his first story that everyone believes?

Even that has no ring of truth to it. Not any of it including walking around the block and he first says nine times and then increases it to 10 or 11 times, irrc.

For if he saw Tim already shot and down on the porch then all the time he would have is to leave the property once Romans was shot and go to his friends and wait until the other boy's father called 911 at 5.03 pm.

imoo

[ChildsVOICE]

There is no way in H**L All this all could have happened in under 11? minutes.How long did it even take for the father to get home?Then call 911?Then for the police to get there.None of this adds up.None of it.

I wonder if the teen neighbor's father was already on his way home and might have been close to the home when the teen called him? or I wondered if he may have just been at another neighbor's home working in a garage or such? to be soo close to be able to arrive home so quickly.

Don't forget ...after checking things out at the Romero house, calling 911 the neighbors let the boy use their cell phone to call the step mother at 5:12 and again at 5:14 when there was no answer the first time.

[Hawk]

These stairs look more narrow than most.

Also, don't forget to add the outstretched arms &/or legs. Plus pool of blood. All these parts would need to be manuvered.

Also, the child would have had to be carrying a long rifle and a box of ammunition while mounting blocked stairs.

I didn't think he could do it going down the stairs. Now, I certainly, do not believe he could do it going up the stairs against gravity.

The rifle is 30" long and weighs only 2.5 pounds. The cartridges have no noticeable wight at all. Even a box full.

[Details]

It's easy. Most stairs are 36" wide (building code). Few men, if any, are 36" wide at the shoulders. He didn't have to step over. He could simply step around.
Measure the step width in your home.If my hubby were sprawled on the steps, I know I couldn't get over or around him easily - and I'm tall and have long legs. And doing so when you haven't put enough shots in to be sure he's dead, as indicated by the additional shot from the other side? No way does an 8 year old have the nerves for that - Daddies have superhuman strength - to an 8 year old - to do this when he's not yet dead - an adult might do that, searching the house for more witnesses, or running down to the door to get Tim - not a child.

[Details]

The rifle is 30" long and weighs only 2.5 pounds. The cartridges have no noticeable wight at all. Even a box full.Both of those amount to full hands. That is a serious obstacle.

[muska]

They were asking him for a new story, new details after he'd already told the story. Embellishment and/or merging what happened that day with other days he got home alone is not unusual nor a surprise.


If he's making up a story about 30 minutes, then there's no reason to believe any different about making up a story about shooting the men - especially when neither fits the facts of the case. His story about 30 minutes is obviously impossible - but possible if we consider a child in shock's grasp of time. His story about shooting the men twice and leaving the gun in the closet is impossible too, given that they were actually shot 4 and 6 times, and the gun was on the dog crate.

Great points!

[GentleBreeze]

I haven't seen the photos, but left, right, or center of the stairs there would be ample room to step around and up or down.
The 5'11" frame was vertical to the stairs. Not cross-wise.

Right. I think he was vertical on the stairways. Why would he even be cross ways? They said he was found laying face down. I think he fell forward and collapsed vertically on the stairs.

imoo

[Hawk]

If my hubby were sprawled on the steps, I know I couldn't get over or around him easily - and I'm tall and have long legs. And doing so when you haven't put enough shots in to be sure he's dead, as indicated by the additional shot from the other side? No way does an 8 year old have the nerves for that - Daddies have superhuman strength - to an 8 year old - to do this when he's not yet dead - an adult might do that, searching the house for more witnesses, or running down to the door to get Tim - not a child.


Nerves, determination, guts, and revenge are the heart of this case.

[GentleBreeze]

Both of those amount to full hands. That is a serious obstacle.

Why? Neither the gun or the bullets are big.

imo

[Hawk]

Right. I think he was vertical on the stairways. Why would he even be cross ways? They said he was found laying face down. I think he fell forward and collapsed vertically on the stairs.

imoo

No question.

[Hawk]

Why? Neither the gun or the bullets are big.

imo

The issue is dexterity. Boys at this age don't have it. They are clumsy. Very clumsy.

[suzanne]

Also the little boy did not have all that time to do what he said that he cried for thirty minute ect....I feel if Nurse Ratched wasn't hounding the little boy and interrogating her he would not have lied to her and said what he thought she wanted to hear.

[ChildsVOICE]

The rifle is 30" long and weighs only 2.5 pounds. The cartridges have no noticeable wight at all. Even a box full.

Do you know what its like to get my kids to carry ANYTHING up the stairs? Kids don't like to carry things UP stairs. Trust me. This does not add up.

Lets talk about how can VR be shot from behind in the back (left arm grazing left side of head and one more in the back) AND have a bullet hole in the front of his hard hat from ABOVE the stairs?

Wouldn't that take two shooters? VR had to be in an upright position to receive the blow to the front of the hard hat.

How could someone shoot from below and behind, climb around him or over him, and go to the second story floor hallway and shoot him in the front of his hard hat? if he collasped before getting to the top step?

{I'm going over to pull the reports that state he was shot with 3-4 seconds between shots and all four shots took 16 seconds. Have to verify this info.}

View the AUTOPSY REPORTS:
http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/Autopsy-St-Johns-murder-victims-shot-in-the-head/gsb18gJlwkizzVprKFwW0A.cspx?p=Comments

[Details]

Why? Neither the gun or the bullets are big.

imoFull hands. That means he would not have a free hand, or maybe one free, one overencumbered (little boy hands here), as he tries to slip past his dad - no way to grab a stair rail.

Imagine your hubby on your stairs - tight stairs, wall on either side, not neatly laying, but sprawled however he was when shot, put some items in your hands, and imagine trying to go down the stairs past him. Then shrink your hands and legs to a child's size and imagine it.

I don't honestly know that I could do it.

[Perplexed1]

No question.

A man's shoulders are 24-30" across, walls on both sides of stairway.
Hard to manuver.

[Good_Gawd]

Nerves, determination, guts, and revenge are the heart of this case.

None of which an 8 yr old is capable of if you ask me.

[Details]

Nerves, determination, guts, and revenge are the heart of this case.None of which are shown to have been key characteristics of this child.

Revenge - nope - he talks fondly of his father, showed love towards him, and obedience, a good kid, by the neighbors. Determination - he was a sloppy kid, from what we've seen of his bedroom and his clothes. Nerves - a few questions from police and he's telling them whatever they want to hear, changing the story as they ask for a different detail. Guts - likewise.

[Details]

A man's shoulders are 24-30" across, walls on both sides of stairway.
Hard to manuver.Arms and legs sprawled however he fell.

[suzanne]

Nancy Grace needs to jump on this story!:mad:

Yes,She does.I agree and Casey's Anthony's thug looking DREAM TEAM needs to be for this little boy.

[GentleBreeze]

The issue is dexterity. Boys at this age don't have it. They are clumsy. Very clumsy.

I think it is according to the boy and the determination of the boy, not boys in general.

imoo

[Perplexed1]

None of which are shown to have been key characteristics of this child.

Revenge - nope - he talks fondly of his father, showed love towards him, and obedience, a good kid, by the neighbors. Determination - he was a sloppy kid, from what we've seen of his bedroom and his clothes. Nerves - a few questions from police and he's telling them whatever they want to hear, changing the story as they ask for a different detail. Guts - likewise.

Sounded sweet in interview. Not like a raging maniac!:sneaky:

[GentleBreeze]

None of which are shown to have been key characteristics of this child.

Revenge - nope - he talks fondly of his father, showed love towards him, and obedience, a good kid, by the neighbors. Determination - he was a sloppy kid, from what we've seen of his bedroom and his clothes. Nerves - a few questions from police and he's telling them whatever they want to hear, changing the story as they ask for a different detail. Guts - likewise.

I thought he said the first time he shot his father he was mad at him?

imo

[Perplexed1]

I thought he said the first time he shot his father he was mad at him?

imo

Coerced only

[Hawk]

Do you know what its like to get my kids to carry ANYTHING up the stairs? Kids don't like to carry things UP stairs. Trust me. This does not add up.

Lets talk about how can VR be shot from behind in the back (left arm grazing left side of head and one more in the back) AND have a bullet hole in the front of his hard hat from ABOVE the stairs?

Wouldn't that take two shooters? VR had to be in an upright position to receive the blow to the front of the hard hat.

How could someone shoot from below and behind, climb around him or over him, and go to the second story floor hallway and shoot him in the front of his hard hat? if he collasped before getting to the top step?

{I'm going over to pull the reports that state he was shot with 3-4 seconds between shots and all four shots took 16 seconds. Have to verify this info.}

View the AUTOPSY REPORTS:
http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/Autopsy-St-Johns-murder-victims-shot-in-the-head/gsb18gJlwkizzVprKFwW0A.cspx?p=Comments

My Southern upbringing won't allow me to dispute anything you say. You have done more to bring this case to light than all of the rest of us combined.
My thoughts and prayers are for young Romero.
I'm only making argumentative conversation and out of respect can not do that with you.

[GentleBreeze]

Arms and legs sprawled however he fell.

Have the documents stated VR arms and legs were sprawled. He would still have room to get around his father though, if so imo.

imoo

[ChildsVOICE]

I thought he said the first time he shot his father he was mad at him?

imo

The police officers had asked him previous questions like:

Do you ever get into trouble at home/with your parents?
How often?
When's the last time you were disciplined (or such) which lead to the spanking because of the forgotten paperwork?
Were you mad at your dad?
then more prodding
and more prodding
and more...
to the end result the boy tells them what they coached him into saying.

It doesn't take much to coach a child, even unintentionally.

Plus, the questions they had been asking were questions no child would be able to answer in a positive light.
All children think they are always in trouble with their parents or a parent.

[Perplexed1]

Have the documents stated VR arms and legs were sprawled. He would still have room to get around his father though, if so imo.

imoo

I read here or somwhere he fell on his arms, underneath him, legs would be sprawled some. Still there is only 6" on each side of body.

[GentleBreeze]

The police officers had asked him previous questions like:

Do you ever get into trouble at home/with your parents?
How often?
When's the last time you were disciplined (or such) which lead to the spanking because of the forgotten paperwork?
Were you mad at your dad?
then more prodding
and more prodding
and more...
to the end result the boy tells them what they coached him into saying.

It doesn't take much to coach a child, even unintentionally.

But the thing we don't know is he could have been telling the truth when he said that. In confessions there will be some outright lies and some half truths in it.

imo

[Hawk]

Have the documents stated VR arms and legs were sprawled. He would still have room to get around his father though, if so imo.

imoo

His arms were under his body (clutching his chest).

[GentleBreeze]

I read here or somwhere he fell on his arms, underneath him, legs would be sprawled some. Still there is only 6" on each side of body.

Thank you. Still room for a small foot to step imo.

imo

[Perplexed1]

I read here or somwhere he fell on his arms, underneath him, legs would be sprawled some. Still there is only 6" on each side of body.

Less if his shoulders are 30" across.

[GentleBreeze]

His arms were under his body (clutching his chest).

Thanks. What about Romans? Wasn't he face down too?

imoo

[Perplexed1]

Thank you. Still room for a small foot to step imo.

imo

3" each side, if shoulder span 30", and wall either side.

[Hawk]

Less if his shoulders are 30" across.

That would be a wide man.

[Perplexed1]

That would be a wide man.

My husbans shoulders are 24' across, and he's a smaller man. VR was a big guy.:sleep:

[Hawk]

Thanks. What about Romans? Wasn't he face down too?

imoo

He was. I think though that his arms were spread.

[muska]

His arms were under his body (clutching his chest).

or he simply put his hands out to break his fall and they ended up under him

[Perplexed1]

My husbans shoulders are 24' across, and he's a smaller man. VR was a big guy.:sleep:

Sorry, 24"

[Hawk]

None of which are shown to have been key characteristics of this child.

Revenge - nope - he talks fondly of his father, showed love towards him, and obedience, a good kid, by the neighbors. Determination - he was a sloppy kid, from what we've seen of his bedroom and his clothes. Nerves - a few questions from police and he's telling them whatever they want to hear, changing the story as they ask for a different detail. Guts - likewise.

Okay. Now your getting the spirit of the thing! Who had these things?

[GentleBreeze]

None of which are shown to have been key characteristics of this child.

Revenge - nope - he talks fondly of his father, showed love towards him, and obedience, a good kid, by the neighbors. Determination - he was a sloppy kid, from what we've seen of his bedroom and his clothes. Nerves - a few questions from police and he's telling them whatever they want to hear, changing the story as they ask for a different detail. Guts - likewise.

Also I don't find him al that obedient. He admitted that he played with the air rifle behind his father's back when he knew that he did not want him to do that and he said he walked around the block when his mother wasn't home.

So he seems to do things when he thinks he can get away with it and they wouldn't know about it.

imoo

[Hawk]

My husbans shoulders are 24' across, and he's a smaller man. VR was a big guy.:sleep:

No he wasn't. Look at the wedding photos. Please.
A man that would cover 36" steps would have to be an NFL lineman.

[Hawk]

Also I don't find him al that obedient. He admitted that he played with the air rifle behind his father's back when he knew that he did not want him to do that and he said he walked around the block when his mother wasn't home.

So he seems to do things when he thinks he can get away with it and they wouldn't know about it.

imoo

Who doesn't?

[Good_Gawd]

ChildVOICE, I just looked at your website and found this link
http://www.kpho.com/slideshow/18019101/detail.htmlindex.html?currentSlide=13&taf=pho
The steps look very narrow to me.

[GentleBreeze]

3" each side, if shoulder span 30", and wall either side.

He could have balanced using the wall and with his foot sideways he would have plenty of room. To hear him tell it he sat beside his father's body so he had to get by him to do that.

imoo

[Good_Gawd]

Okay. Now your getting the spirit of the thing! Who had these things?

Who?:ohmy:

[GentleBreeze]

Who doesn't?

I don't know. I know I sure didn't mess with any guns behind my parents back, not even the BB gun. I was just commenting that he didn't strike me as an obedient child but one that will do things behind the back of his parents.

He seems rather typical but not obedient imo.

imoo

[Hawk]

ChildVOICE, I just looked at your website and found this link
http://www.kpho.com/slideshow/18019101/detail.htmlindex.html?currentSlide=13&taf=pho
The steps look very narrow to me.

All stairs built in the last 20 years are at least 36" wide. Building codes (even in AZ), ADA, and Fire Marshalls require it!
Photographs can be deceptive. There are eight steps on the first flight and seven on the second, going 180 degrees from the bottom floor.

[Hawk]

Who?:ohmy:

Who? You sound like an OWL.
Just kidding!

[ChildsVOICE]

Have the documents stated VR arms and legs were sprawled. He would still have room to get around his father though, if so imo.

imoo

He is a child small for his age. See biological mother's description of him on GMA

Mom Defends Son Accused of Murder
http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=6320566

He's 8 years old. His feet did not even touch the floor from sitting in the chair in the interrogation video.

He would have been carrying a rifle and ammunition, without spilling any.

He would be carrying these UP the stairs.

Have a grown adult 5'11" man collaspe on a staircase at your house and just lay there. Pour some water on the steps around the man's head and chest. Invite an 8 year old child over. Place a broom stick and a small box of gravel in his hands. Have the child to mount the stairs in socks (just to pick up the water on his socks as the boy would have stepped in some of the blood). Even tell the child "Don't get any water on your socks."

Have someone just sit on one of the stairs and outstretch just their legs down the staircase. Have the kid carry anything up the stairs and get around the person sitting on the stairs.

Then, come back and tell me what happened.

I betcha the kid can't do it without needing to hold onto the railing and getting some of the water on his socks and complaining and most likely giving up.

I'm telling you....there's no way this kid did this.

VR had a gun shot in his left arm and grazing the left side of his head. One more going through his back and into his lung. One more in the front of his hard hat. plus one more to the head.

How did the boy shoot his father twice and climb up the stairs and around his father and get to the top of the stairs to shoot his father in the FRONT of his hard hat? If his father was still able to look up or was still standing, to receive the shot to the FRONT of his hard hat after being shot from the back, twice...wouldn't he be able to grab the boy as he mounted over him? or fight for the gun? anything?

The autopsy reports state that neither TR nor VR had any gun powder residue on their skin so they were not shot close range. The shooter had to be at least two and a half feet away. If there was brain matter and other fluids on the wall it would have had to come from a powerful weapon used.

Was there two shooters. One upstairs and one downstairs?

Was the Mossberg used with a 10 round magazine? Hence, 10 shots and the means to not spilling any.

Could someone have been using the Mossberg and have the Chipmunk loaded and sitting on the dog cage as a back up weapon and did not use it and just left it sitting there as they ran off with the Mossberg?

Could one shooter have the Mossberg and take it with him/her? and the other shooter have the Chipmunk and leave it behind?

Did Tim open the door to the truck or was he sitting in the truck, grab the missing handgun from his truck, gotten shot, collasped then the gunman grab his handgun as he ran off?

These are questions that the police were supposed to answer BEFORE putting a little 8 year old kid in near solitary confinement/isolation, shackling him, and deny him, until now, any therapy for his traumatic witnessing of a violent crime of his dear father.

[bkwits]

If my hubby were sprawled on the steps, I know I couldn't get over or around him easily - and I'm tall and have long legs. And doing so when you haven't put enough shots in to be sure he's dead, as indicated by the additional shot from the other side? No way does an 8 year old have the nerves for that - Daddies have superhuman strength - to an 8 year old - to do this when he's not yet dead - an adult might do that, searching the house for more witnesses, or running down to the door to get Tim - not a child.

My basement stairs are look very much like the stairs in Romero house...carpeted stairs, walls on both sides, hand rail on one side. I did an experiment where I lay down on the stairs and rested my head on the floor at the top of the stairs. I am 5' 8" so am tall, but smaller than VR. As you say, the body would not fall in a straight line up and down the stairs. I felt it would be difficult for a child to step around the body. Also, as you say, it would be extremely difficult for child to do so carrying a rifle and ammo. It is not just the weight but the awkwardness.

BTW, did he have to carry a box of ammo around with him, set it down, pick the shell out each time he loaded it? Then pick it uo each time he moved to another spot?

[Details]

Okay. Now your getting the spirit of the thing! Who had these things?A spurned lover - whether wife, ex, or girlfriend who just found out she wasn't the only one. A coworker who sees the victim as his nemisis. A drug dealer - no question about it! A bar fighter who thinks their honor has been insulted, wants revenge.

Not uncommon things to have, for adults. Very incredibly rare for children.

[Details]

Also I don't find him al that obedient. He admitted that he played with the air rifle behind his father's back when he knew that he did not want him to do that and he said he walked around the block when his mother wasn't home.

So he seems to do things when he thinks he can get away with it and they wouldn't know about it.

imooYes. He's 8. What part of that don't you get? Leave a cookie out in front of an 8 year old, tell him not to touch it, then go shopping. No 8 year old is very obedient, unless someone is with them, watching.

[Hawk]

A spurned lover - whether wife, ex, or girlfriend who just found out she wasn't the only one. A coworker who sees the victim as his nemisis. A drug dealer - no question about it! A bar fighter who thinks their honor has been insulted, wants revenge.

Not uncommon things to have, for adults. Very incredibly rare for children.

Good point!

[ChildsVOICE]

All stairs built in the last 20 years are at least 36" wide. Building codes (even in AZ), ADA, and Fire Marshalls require it!
Photographs can be deceptive. There are eight steps on the first flight and seven on the second, going 180 degrees from the bottom floor.

Yes. My ex husband was a construction worker. Been around a bunch.

Don't know when the house was built. Some on the previous thread mentioned they thought VR had just built the house.

Does AZ have the same 36" code? Did VR follow that code?

I don't know.

I agree photos are sometimes deceiving. I have taken that into account.


If there were reports of the boy having blood all over his shoes; Bloody footprints matching the boy's; dirty shoe prints either partial or full, anywhere on VR that matched the boy's footbrints, I'd agree. But, so far we do not find these facts. So, until any further evidence proves me wrong, I stick to the fact the kid couldn't have done it in the time allowed. Remember, you still have a LIVE fully capable TR outside talking to his wife.

[bkwits]

Also I don't find him al that obedient. He admitted that he played with the air rifle behind his father's back when he knew that he did not want him to do that and he said he walked around the block when his mother wasn't home.

So he seems to do things when he thinks he can get away with it and they wouldn't know about it.

imoo

You either had angelic children or have a short memory. He sounds very normal for an 8 year old. Especially one left to his on own a great deal of the time

IMO

[ChildsVOICE]

My basement stairs are look very much like the stairs in Romero house...carpeted stairs, walls on both sides, hand rail on one side. I did an experiment where I lay down on the stairs and rested my head on the floor at the top of the stairs. I am 5' 8" so am tall, but smaller than VR. As you say, the body would not fall in a straight line up and down the stairs. I felt it would be difficult for a child to step around the body. Also, as you say, it would be extremely difficult for child to do so carrying a rifle and ammo. It is not just the weight but the awkwardness.

BTW, did he have to carry a box of ammo around with him, set it down, pick the shell out each time he loaded it? Then pick it uo each time he moved to another spot?

There was no ammunition found in his pockets to his clothing.

There were no unspent rounds found anywhere around the bodies or expected crime scene.

The police state it was a single shot rifle. He would reload after each time so he would have to have some ammunition with him at all times.

Again, if he carried them loosely then how did he not drop any? especially climbing around his father going up the stairs and have some in tiny hands?

Carrying any in a hand would make mounting the stairs with a full grown adult male more difficult.

[Perplexed1]

All stairs built in the last 20 years are at least 36" wide. Building codes (even in AZ), ADA, and Fire Marshalls require it!
Photographs can be deceptive. There are eight steps on the first flight and seven on the second, going 180 degrees from the bottom floor.

Lay out a 36" rule, or yardstick. Not very wide. Wasn't VR 5'11"? Place all that in 36" width, please. :sad:

[Details]

And two shots to the chest in almost the same location - how does that happen with a single shot? The guy stays standing and waits while you reload? No matter how fast you are - that just doesn't fit!

[Perplexed1]

Lay out a 36" rule, or yardstick. Not very wide. Wasn't VR 5'11"? Place all that in 36" width, please. :sad:

Oh, and add the bulk of all the clothing, Carharts over other clothes.

[bkwits]

There was no ammunition found in his pockets to his clothing.

There were no unspent rounds found anywhere around the bodies or expected crime scene.

The police state it was a single shot rifle. He would reload after each time so he would have to have some ammunition with him at all times.

Again, if he carried them loosely then how did he not drop any? especially climbing around his father going up the stairs and have some in tiny hands?

Carrying any in a hand would make mounting the stairs with a full grown adult male more difficult.



Does LE state that it has to have been done by a single shot or are they just assuming it is the Chipmunk rifle?

[Perplexed1]

He is a child small for his age. See biological mother's description of him on GMA

Mom Defends Son Accused of Murder
http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=6320566

He's 8 years old. His feet did not even touch the floor from sitting in the chair in the interrogation video.

He would have been carrying a rifle and ammunition, without spilling any.

He would be carrying these UP the stairs.

Have a grown adult 5'11" man collaspe on a staircase at your house and just lay there. Pour some water on the steps around the man's head and chest. Invite an 8 year old child over. Place a broom stick and a small box of gravel in his hands. Have the child to mount the stairs in socks (just to pick up the water on his socks as the boy would have stepped in some of the blood). Even tell the child "Don't get any water on your socks."

Have someone just sit on one of the stairs and outstretch just their legs down the staircase. Have the kid carry anything up the stairs and get around the person sitting on the stairs.

Then, come back and tell me what happened.

I betcha the kid can't do it without needing to hold onto the railing and getting some of the water on his socks and complaining and most likely giving up.

I'm telling you....there's no way this kid did this.

VR had a gun shot in his left arm and grazing the left side of his head. One more going through his back and into his lung. One more in the front of his hard hat. plus one more to the head.

How did the boy shoot his father twice and climb up the stairs and around his father and get to the top of the stairs to shoot his father in the FRONT of his hard hat? If his father was still able to look up or was still standing, to receive the shot to the FRONT of his hard hat after being shot from the back, twice...wouldn't he be able to grab the boy as he mounted over him? or fight for the gun? anything?

The autopsy reports state that neither TR nor VR had any gun powder residue on their skin so they were not shot close range. The shooter had to be at least two and a half feet away. If there was brain matter and other fluids on the wall it would have had to come from a powerful weapon used.

Was there two shooters. One upstairs and one downstairs?

Was the Mossberg used with a 10 round magazine? Hence, 10 shots and the means to not spilling any.

Could someone have been using the Mossberg and have the Chipmunk loaded and sitting on the dog cage as a back up weapon and did not use it and just left it sitting there as they ran off with the Mossberg?

Could one shooter have the Mossberg and take it with him/her? and the other shooter have the Chipmunk and leave it behind?

Did Tim open the door to the truck or was he sitting in the truck, grab the missing handgun from his truck, gotten shot, collasped then the gunman grab his handgun as he ran off?

These are questions that the police were supposed to answer BEFORE putting a little 8 year old kid in near solitary confinement/isolation, shackling him, and deny him, until now, any therapy for his traumatic witnessing of a violent crime of his dear father.

Is it just me, or wouldn't he have sounded more like a maniac the next morning, after brutally murdering 2 people? Doctor's didn't detect that he was a sociopath (sp?) or physchopath.

[bkwits]

Lay out a 36" rule, or yardstick. Not very wide. Wasn't VR 5'11"? Place all that in 36" width, please. :sad:

Those stairs are likely slightly less than 36 inches. Note the tiles at the bottom of the steps. The walls take up a few inches, and the handrail intrudes on the space.

[GentleBreeze]

He is a child small for his age. See biological mother's description of him on GMA

Mom Defends Son Accused of Murder
http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=6320566

He's 8 years old. His feet did not even touch the floor from sitting in the chair in the interrogation video.

He would have been carrying a rifle and ammunition, without spilling any.

He would be carrying these UP the stairs.

Have a grown adult 5'11" man collapse on a staircase at your house and just lay there. Pour some water on the steps around the man's head and chest. Invite an 8 year old child over. Place a broom stick and a small box of gravel in his hands. Have the child to mount the stairs in socks (just to pick up the water on his socks as the boy would have stepped in some of the blood). Even tell the child "Don't get any water on your socks."

Have someone just sit on one of the stairs and outstretch just their legs down the staircase. Have the kid carry anything up the stairs and get around the person sitting on the stairs.

Then, come back and tell me what happened.

I betcha the kid can't do it without needing to hold onto the railing and getting some of the water on his socks and complaining and most likely giving up.

I'm telling you....there's no way this kid did this.

VR had a gun shot in his left arm and grazing the left side of his head. One more going through his back and into his lung. One more in the front of his hard hat. plus one more to the head.

How did the boy shoot his father twice and climb up the stairs and around his father and get to the top of the stairs to shoot his father in the FRONT of his hard hat? If his father was still able to look up or was still standing, to receive the shot to the FRONT of his hard hat after being shot from the back, twice...wouldn't he be able to grab the boy as he mounted over him? or fight for the gun? anything?

The autopsy reports state that neither TR nor VR had any gun powder residue on their skin so they were not shot close range. The shooter had to be at least two and a half feet away. If there was brain matter and other fluids on the wall it would have had to come from a powerful weapon used.

Was there two shooters. One upstairs and one downstairs?

Was the Mossberg used with a 10 round magazine? Hence, 10 shots and the means to not spilling any.

Could someone have been using the Mossberg and have the Chipmunk loaded and sitting on the dog cage as a back up weapon and did not use it and just left it sitting there as they ran off with the Mossberg?

Could one shooter have the Mossberg and take it with him/her? and the other shooter have the Chipmunk and leave it behind?

Did Tim open the door to the truck or was he sitting in the truck, grab the missing handgun from his truck, gotten shot, collapsed then the gunman grab his handgun as he ran off?

These are questions that the police were supposed to answer BEFORE putting a little 8 year old kid in near solitary confinement/isolation, shackling him, and deny him, until now, any therapy for his traumatic witnessing of a violent crime of his dear father.

I do appreciate your faith in this boy however I do not see this as a task undoable but a very easy one. This boy said the gun was easy to use and it is. He had shot this gun before and the gun only weighs around 2.5 pounds irrc and is shorter than an adult rifle. Even toy rifles are this size. Also the bullets aren't large but small so he could have carried them in his hand or even his pocket.

It is very easy to take down two unsuspecting adults when they have no warning whatsoever until it is too late to react except maybe stagger forward before being hit again. They had no weapon and the suspect did.

I hope that you are right and that I am wrong but I do believe he did this. The time line shows he had no time to even be at the home after the murders because once he got to the neighbors house several things had to transpire, yet all of it was done and over with and reported by 5:03 p,m. Tim Romans was alive at 4:55 p,m. and they were both dead when he left the home.

I think the door was left open on Vinnie's side because it was said that both of them were going that afternoon to help a friend work on a chest of drawers.

imoo

[Details]

Does LE state that it has to have been done by a single shot or are they just assuming it is the Chipmunk rifle?It's part of the case against the boy, that it was done with his gun. But that is all assumption at this point - no ballistics results have been released, and the gun was sent on from the original testing facility to have additional testing done elsewhere (the reason for additional testing is an interesting topic to think about... and the results of any original testing...).

[Hawk]

You either had angelic children or have a short memory. He sounds very normal for an 8 year old. Especially one left to his on own a great deal of the time

IMO

Seems normal to me, too.
You have to spend time with kids and teach by example.
This old BS of 'Do as I say and not as I do' went out the window long ago. My kids and grandkids spend time with me to get a little perspective, to get a little of my opinion on life, but mostly to reinforce their dependence on humor. We might disagree but they go away with a smile. Later they thank me for it. Am I special? Of course not. I just listen as much as I talk. That's what I want them to learn.

And they have never been left alone in time of crisis. And never will be.

[Good_Gawd]

Those stairs are likely slightly less than 36 inches. Note the tiles at the bottom of the steps. The walls take up a few inches, and the handrail intrudes on the space.

Are those 12" tiles?

[GentleBreeze]

Those stairs are likely slightly less than 36 inches. Note the tiles at the bottom of the steps. The walls take up a few inches, and the handrail intrudes on the space.

The home was just built not too long ago. It must meet inspection and be built to code. All hallways and stairways must have at least a 36 inch opening. It is also a fire code violation irrc.

imoo

[Perplexed1]

I do appreciate your faith in this boy however I do not see this as a task undoable but a very easy one. This boy said the gun was easy to use and it is. He had shot this gun before and the gun only weighs around 2.5 pounds irrc and is shorter than an adult rifle. Even toy rifles are this size. Also the bullets aren't large but small so he could have carried them in his hand or even his pocket.

It is very easy to take down two unsuspecting adults when they have no warning whatsoever until it is too late to react except maybe stagger forward before being hit again. They had no weapon and the suspect did.

I hope that you are right and that I am wrong but I do believe he did this. The time line shows he had no time to even be at the home after the murders because once he got to the neighbors house several things had to transpire, yet all of it was done and over with and reported by 5:03 p,m. Tim Romans was alive at 4:55 p,m. and they were both dead when he left the home.

I think the door was left open on Vinnie's side because it was said that both of them were going that afternoon to help a friend work on a chest of drawers.

imoo

For some it is just easier to beleive a lie, no disrespect. I'm sure hoping defense is working hard for the little guy.

[Good_Gawd]

The home was just built not too long ago. It must meet inspection and be built to code. All hallways and stairways must have at least a 36 inch opening. It is also a fire code violation irrc.

imoo

We just built a home in Indiana and nobody ever checked. I bet they don't check in Gooberville either.

[Perplexed1]

We just built a home in Indiana and nobody ever checked. I bet they don't check in Gooberville either.

Indiana! Just moved away from there 5 yrs. ago. Lived there 38 yrs. So cold.

[Perplexed1]

We just built a home in Indiana and nobody ever checked. I bet they don't check in Gooberville either.

I'm in flooring business, and very little is properly inspected anymore. Especially in gooberville. What else about this whole case has been to code.

[Good_Gawd]

Indiana! Just moved away from there 5 yrs. ago. Lived there 38 yrs. So cold.

Very very cold. :angry:

[Hawk]

The home was just built not too long ago. It must meet inspection and be built to code. All hallways and stairways must have at least a 36 inch opening. It is also a fire code violation irrc.

imoo

The house was built in 2003. It belongs to Mrs. Romero, according to tax records, who has lived with Mr. Romero long before the 'wedding'. There was no 'Honey Moon' type thing. She's known the boy a long time.
The staircase is a standard 36" wide.
Ain't no man 5'11" that would fill a 36" stairway. The boy, or anyone else with two feet, could easily step over, or beside, the body.
Good grief, the cops did.

[Perplexed1]

The house was built in 2003. It belongs to Mrs. Romero, according to tax records, who has lived with Mr. Romero long before the 'wedding'. There was no 'Honey Moon' type thing. She's known the boy a long time.
The staircase is a standard 36" wide.
Ain't no man 5'11" that would fill a 36" stairway. The boy, or anyone else could easily step over the body. Good grief, the cops did.

Exactly! They are GROWN men. No short legs.

[Hawk]

Exactly! They are GROWN men. No short legs.

Short legs can go up/down stairs. The boy went to bed didn't he?

[Perplexed1]

Short legs can go up/down stairs. The boy went to bed didn't he?

No convincing me. He didn't do it. case closed. Goodnight.:biggrin:

[GentleBreeze]

For some it is just easier to believe a lie, no disrespect. I'm sure hoping defense is working hard for the little guy.

I don't see the need for your sarcasm but it it makes you feel better then by all means carry on.

I don't believe I am wanting to believe a lie but I do want the truth as to who killed these two men. The time line of when Romans was alive and the sound of gunshots heard just does not compute. He had no time to discover them, go inside the home and then go to the boy's home and wait for the other father to come and it all be done and over by 5:03 pm.

imoo

[bkwits]

Are those 12" tiles?

I am thinking that they are 15" tiles. But you can see that the stair treads were originally 36" but the walls, trim, handrails have intruded on that space. My stair treads are actually about 38" but come out to a little less than 36" with baseboard and handrail.

[Hawk]

No convincing me. He didn't do it. case closed. Goodnight.:biggrin:

Alright then. He's got to get out of jail. I agree. But I can't give up on who killed these men.

Good night.

[GentleBreeze]

The house was built in 2003. It belongs to Mrs. Romero, according to tax records, who has lived with Mr. Romero long before the 'wedding'. There was no 'Honey Moon' type thing. She's known the boy a long time.
The staircase is a standard 36" wide.
Ain't no man 5'11" that would fill a 36" stairway. The boy, or anyone else with two feet, could easily step over, or beside, the body.
Good grief, the cops did.

Thank you. I knew the home wasnt that old.

And you are right, the big bad cops did it.:smile:

imoo

[Details]

Short legs can go up/down stairs. The boy went to bed didn't he?Unless the family is very odd, there would have been no one laying in the middle of the stairway while he did so - and he wouldn't have been asked to carry a rifle and a box while doing so.

Cops, with holsters and pockets to carry their things, and long legs to step over and past, adult coordination and reflexes, went over the body.

[bkwits]

The home was just built not too long ago. It must meet inspection and be built to code. All hallways and stairways must have at least a 36 inch opening. It is also a fire code violation irrc.

imoo

I agree with you. But trimmed out it slightly less than that.

[ChildsVOICE]

He could have balanced using the wall and with his foot sideways he would have plenty of room. To hear him tell it he sat beside his father's body so he had to get by him to do that.

imoo

He, later, described laying on the landing, crying. That would put him below the father.

When a child this age talks about "beside" it could mean anywhere near.

I can even see him getting beside his father's legs even up to his hips to see the "blood all over his face" but not climbing over his chest, arms, shoulders, bloody head & bloody carpeted steps, to get above his father.

Also, he does not describing going all the way past his father.

Why would he want or need to climb over the father to get to the top of the staircase if the father was already down with blood all over his face? Why would he go through all that time and trouble when he would be expecting TR to come through the door any second? and catch him?

The boy was grossed out and afraid to have to touch the father "to see if he was a little bit alive". This is indicated with him demonstrating how he touched his father buy reaching out with his toes. He couldn't even bring himself to touch his dad with his hands. He kept as much distance as possible and still do what he felt he had to do by touching him to check if he was alive. One last hope, I suppose.

This doesn't sound like an unremorseful, cold blooded murderer to me.

Also, the boy sounds apologetic when he describes when he saw Tim called Dad! Dad! he explained he didn't mean to hit Tim with the door but he "tapped his head with it, a little bit, I think".

Doesn't sound like a kid that just blew this guys brains out.

Listen...I have an Early Childhood Education Degree. I've been around some real sociopathic children. I've even had a six year old child intentionally kick his 8 month pregnant mother, directly and purposely, in the stomach then grab a pair of adult sissors and try to stab me with them. The child has been in a psyc center for children for many years, now. I could tell you a bunch more drug related, sexual molested victims, totally psycotic children who were way out there.

Believe me...I know, first hand, how some children even younger than this boy CAN behave and have serious mental issues.

The facts are just not adding up in this particular case.

At first, I thought the boy may have actually found the men shot and laying on the stairs and porch and then shot them, again, to put them out of the suffering. But, the more the facts starting coming out...the more I changed my mind and think that it is completely impossible for him to have committed the crime....IN THE MANNER IN WHICH THE POLICE ARE OFFERING.

Now, I don't even think he did it to end their suffering.

I am a very factual person. I must have the facts. But, I expect our public servants to do what they are getting PAID to do...their jobs! Not just seek out an easy paycheck at the expense of the most innocent of our society.

Innocent until proven guilty.

[GentleBreeze]

We just built a home in Indiana and nobody ever checked. I bet they don't check in Gooberville either.

LOL! Well I live in what could be calld Mayberry Jr. and they darn sure check everything here. They just love to find anything that is not meeting codes.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Do you know what its like to get my kids to carry ANYTHING up the stairs? Kids don't like to carry things UP stairs. Trust me. This does not add up.

Lets talk about how can VR be shot from behind in the back (left arm grazing left side of head and one more in the back) AND have a bullet hole in the front of his hard hat from ABOVE the stairs?

Wouldn't that take two shooters? VR had to be in an upright position to receive the blow to the front of the hard hat.

How could someone shoot from below and behind, climb around him or over him, and go to the second story floor hallway and shoot him in the front of his hard hat? if he collapsed before getting to the top step?

{I'm going over to pull the reports that state he was shot with 3-4 seconds between shots and all four shots took 16 seconds. Have to verify this info.}

View the AUTOPSY REPORTS:
http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/Autopsy-St-Johns-murder-victims-shot-in-the-head/gsb18gJlwkizzVprKFwW0A.cspx?p=Comments

I would be highly interested in reading about the report I have bolded in your post. I would have thought it would have been a few seconds longer than that for each shot. I knew it wouldn't take but a few seconds each though, since I have fired this same type of weapon when I was a child.

imoo

[Details]

...
Listen...I have an Early Childhood Education Degree. I've been around some real sociopathic children. I've even had a six year old child intentionally kick his 8 month pregnant mother, directly and purposely, in the stomach then grab a pair of adult sissors and try to stab me with them. The child has been in a psyc center for children for many years, now. I could tell you a bunch more drug related, sexual molested victims, totally psycotic children who were way out there.

Believe me...I know, first hand, how some children even younger than this boy CAN behave and have serious mental issues.....And a child that sick - they show it - as that one did and had for years. You have to get to be a lot more adult to learn how to control your impulses to hide what a monster you are. You don't just jump from normal happy messy kid who loves hanging out with his dad and seems a good kid to the neighbors and at school, to a sociopathic, organized, cold-blooded, and extremely fast killer.

[bkwits]

And a child that sick - they show it - as that one did and had for years. You have to get to be a lot more adult to learn how to control your impulses to hide what a monster you are. You don't just jump from normal happy messy kid who loves hanging out with his dad and seems a good kid to the neighbors and at school, to a sociopathic, organized, cold-blooded, and extremely fast killer.

This kid seems anything but organized. IMo

[ExPI]

Childsvoice - please elaborate on what you said "{I'm going over to pull the reports that state he was shot with 3-4 seconds between shots and all four shots took 16 seconds. Have to verify this info.}"

Does anyone know how far away his friend's house was. It was not across the street or next door. Police reports mention questioning the closer neighbors as to whether they heard or saw anything. He did not run to the nearest phone, his that was upstairs or his dad's or Tim's, he ran for a friend who happened to have a phone. This is hardly the act of a steely eyed shooter. It sounds like a terrified and panicked kid to me.
I just took a walk around the neighborhood on Google Maps, that is so cool! The newspaper and police photos don't give you a sense of how built up the area is. I had envisioned a lot more open space.
Also a smallish eight year old does not have the strength or agility to do the stairs. Scale it up to adult size and make the weapon a M-14 with a box of shotgun shells and only useevery other step. How easy is it now?

[Hawk]

It's been over two months now. Back and forth. No poster has a rational motive, time-line opportunity, or other reasonable weapon used to explain these gruesome bloody murders. All the evidence points to the single shot chipmunk. There wasn't an auto involved. Not one poster has stated how that isn't possible. Not even close.
The evidence against the boy is overwhelming.

In your heart of hearts, perhaps, you know that no one else could have done these awful deeds except young Romero. He acted alone and shot these men in a most horrible manner. He then shot them again and again to be sure they wouldn't jump up and get him.
Mr. Brewer, Mr. Carlyon, and Judge Roca know it. That's why this case is lingering. The court doesn't know what to do.

The question now is, what should be done with him?

If I had a vote I would say let him go.

[ChildsVOICE]

I don't see the need for your sarcasm but it it makes you feel better then by all means carry on.

I don't believe I am wanting to believe a lie but I do want the truth as to who killed these two men. The time line of when Romans was alive and the sound of gunshots heard just does not compute. He had no time to discover them, go inside the home and then go to the boy's home and wait for the other father to come and it all be done and over by 5:03 pm.

imoo

The original 5:03 p.m. call to 911 was the neighbors hearing the gunshots. Not the call from the teen's father.

I expect the teen's father was most likely already in route home from work and was very near the home. He, probably, just drove straight over to the Romero's to check it out, made what was the second of the 911 calls. The transcripts say he only checked out the Romero house long enough to see a man laying on the front porch. He could have done this just by driving by. The teen and the father each had cell phones, iirc.

The teen's father, the teen and the boy were standing outside the Romero residence when the police arrived for the first time.

Sgt. R figured it was approximately 5:06-5:08 p.m. when they (police)arrived.

The teen or his father let the boy use one of the cell phones to call the step mother at 5:12 and again at 5:14 p.m.


The neighbors who heard the gunshots and reported them, may have only and most likely, heard the final shots to TR, outside at 5:03 p.m.

The perpetrator(s) get into the vehicle with a get a way driver. The car rushes off. The child has been in route to the house arrives as the car rushes off. He sees Tim, runs and screams out dad's name, takes a few seconds to check the downstairs for the dad (if he actually did that) finds dad on stairs. Pokes dad with toes. Sits down beside or lays on landing and cries. Boy does not stay there long but seems so to truamatized child. Runs away to neighbors, fearful. Becha he was bookin' it. Teen's father drives straight to scene probably from only a few blocks away, most likely nearly home from work. Gets there before police who were 7 blocks away and had to leave police headquarters building and get into car. Used cell phone to make second 911 call from vehicle. In the meantime, boy and teen walk or run back over to Romero house (boy was seeking help) to join teen's dad. Police arrive.

Then case investigated, police get 8 year old to "confess" without actually confessing. Investigation shut down. Case solved about as fast as the crime was committed.

[JD1974]

3" each side, if shoulder span 30", and wall either side.


Does it say somewhere in any of the filings etc. how wide the stairs are? Are they truly 36"? Look at the bottom of the steps, there is tile put down, most tiles are 12" if those ones are, that stairway is only maybe 30" tops

[Details]

Hawk - speak for your heart of hearts - I know my own.


Rational motive - there are tons. Means, opportunity - few people who had motive have been fully alibi'd. The Chimpmonk is not a good weapon for this crime, and only a few particular order of shots make it possible - two shots in a chest so close they touch do not fit it well at all. The evidence against this boy is flimsy and nearly nonexistent - a report of a phone call by someone who could be a top suspect.

[JD1974]

Are those 12" tiles?


I just posted that, you beat me to it. I believe they are which would make the staircase NOT 36"

[Hawk]

Hawk - speak for your heart of hearts - I know my own.

Then come up with a detailed account of what happened.

[ChildsVOICE]

Childsvoice - please elaborate on what you said "{I'm going over to pull the reports that state he was shot with 3-4 seconds between shots and all four shots took 16 seconds. Have to verify this info.}"

Does anyone know how far away his friend's house was. It was not across the street or next door. Police reports mention questioning the closer neighbors as to whether they heard or saw anything. He did not run to the nearest phone, his that was upstairs or his dad's or Tim's, he ran for a friend who happened to have a phone. This is hardly the act of a steely eyed shooter. It sounds like a terrified and panicked kid to me.
I just took a walk around the neighborhood on Google Maps, that is so cool! The newspaper and police photos don't give you a sense of how built up the area is. I had envisioned a lot more open space.
Also a smallish eight year old does not have the strength or agility to do the stairs. Scale it up to adult size and make the weapon a M-14 with a box of shotgun shells and only useevery other step. How easy is it now?

Yeah, ExPI! You rock! I've got to see where I saw that. So much has come in. I couldn't believe that info when I read it and wanted to delve further. I'll try to find it but may need to post it tomorrow. I still don't know how accurate that info would be.

A poster stated last night that the possible missing Mossberg would be able to use a 10 round magazine. Would that explain the short time frame, the fact the men were shot 10 times, and the fact that no unspent shells were found at the crime scene? Seems to me the time frame calls for an automatic , semi automatic, and/or two shooters. Not a little 8 year old kid.

[Details]

Then come up with a detailed account of what happened.It's been done, and you've been here. You don't accept it - that's fine - I don't accept yours either. The crime and the wounds simply do not fit the single shot chipmunk. Let alone a sociopathic organized 8 year old's body and abilities, least of all, this 8 year old.

[Hawk]

It's been done, and you've been here. You don't accept it - that's fine - I don't accept yours either. The crime and the wounds simply do not fit the single shot chipmunk. Let alone an 8 year old's body and abilities, least of all, this 8 year old.

Yes, they do. Perfectly. Where is your alternate scenario? Not just who was where but in evidence?
You just refuse to accept facts.
I understand why. I don't like them either.

[Crispy]

It's been over two months now. Back and forth. No poster has a rational motive, time-line opportunity, or other reasonable weapon used to explain these gruesome bloody murders. All the evidence points to the single shot chipmunk. There wasn't an auto involved. Not one poster has stated how that isn't possible. Not even close.
The evidence against the boy is overwhelming.

In your heart of hearts, perhaps, you know that no one else could have done these awful deeds except young Romero. He acted alone and shot these men in a most horrible manner. He then shot them again and again to be sure they wouldn't jump up and get him.
Mr. Brewer, Mr. Carlyon, and Judge Roca know it. That's why this case is lingering. The court doesn't know what to do.

The question now is, what should be done with him?

If I had a vote I would say let him go.


I would think that if Mr. Brewer, Mr. Carlyon and Judge Roca all knew for sure, the boy would have taken a plea deal.

Also, I haven't seen where the ballistics have come back stating as fact what gun was used.

jmo

[Hawk]

[QUOTE=Hawk;12656894]Well, I didn't want to get personal, but do you think the boy was afraid to go into the house alone? I mean on an average day.
My 8 year old grandson would be. So would my 10 year old granddaughter. And my other kids and grandkids at that age.
When me and my five boy cousins were that age (50 years ago) we were all scared to go upstairs at Granny's house.

My 8 year old son is afraid to go upstairs an take a shower unless someone else is up there in another room or something as long as someone is up there.

Good point Hawk!

Thank you!

[Hawk]

I would think that if Mr. Brewer, Mr. Carlyon and Judge Roca all knew for sure, the boy would have taken a plea deal.

Also, I haven't seen where the ballistics have come back stating as fact what gun was used.

jmo

Mr. Brewers job is to save his client. He'll use whatever means available.
If you're waiting for firing pin reports you may be disappointed.

[Crispy]

OK why will I be disappointed?

[Jacobtk]

I do appreciate your faith in this boy however I do not see this as a task undoable but a very easy one. This boy said the gun was easy to use and it is. He had shot this gun before and the gun only weighs around 2.5 pounds irrc and is shorter than an adult rifle. Even toy rifles are this size. Also the bullets aren't large but small so he could have carried them in his hand or even his pocket.

The weight of the gun and the size of the rounds only play a part. The issue is not whether the boy could use the rifle, but whether he had the skill and control to shoot two people ten times in total in the span of handful of minutes while grouping his shots together. That does not sound probable even if it were an adult shooter. A person would have to be very skilled with the weapon and very fast and accurate and have a still target in order to do what was done.

It is very easy to take down two unsuspecting adults when they have no warning whatsoever until it is too late to react except maybe stagger forward before being hit again.

True, except staggering forward would change the angle of the entry wounds and that would be noticeable during the autopsy.

The time line shows he had no time to even be at the home after the murders because once he got to the neighbors house several things had to transpire, yet all of it was done and over with and reported by 5:03 p,m. Tim Romans was alive at 4:55 p,m. and they were both dead when he left the home.

Well, there is no consistent time line because no one is certain when the shots were actually heard. All we know is when the first call came in to the police. The best means of knowing when Romans was last alive would be checking his cell phone records to verify that he spoke with his wife. To date that does not appear to have happened. It certainly has not been entered into evidence by the state. So, we honestly cannot know when Romans was shot.

[Details]

Yes, they do. Perfectly. Where is your alternate scenario? Not just who was where but in evidence?
You just refuse to accept facts.
I understand why. I don't like them either.No need to get personal if you don't like my answer. I accept facts - but I don't see where you have them on your side. I've given several alternates. Your scenario relies tightly on a particular firing order that doesn't make much sense to me.

You have to take several huge, enormous leaps to set up that this 8 year old did it. He's got to somehow be an undetected sociopath or otherwise severe mental defect, who somehow perfectly covers it, at 8 years old. He's got to have organizational skills and coordination that are challenging for adult military members. He's got to take out two adult men without flinching. He's got to kill one out in public, without being seen, without that one getting the gun right next to him, with Tim making the suicidal and insane decision to run into gunfire rather than away from it (one of the biggest leaps - he's got a cell, a gun, and a path to freedom by running away - and the blood trail shows him running to the door. No logic there). He's got to carry a gun and a box of ammo over his father's bloody corpse (or not yet corpse) in a tight stairway - 8 years old - short legs, lacking adult coordination. And he's got to do all of this organization, planning, cold calculation - and still be such a fool that he tells the police anything they want to hear. And while telling them what they want to hear, confessing to the worst things he could ever admit to, going along with anything they ask him - he still can't manage to even come close to the murder scene - not in number of shots, not in even the little, nonincriminatory matter of where he left the gun.

And single shot - yeah, you can kill grown men as they wait for you to reload, you shoot someone in the chest, and he'll stand there and wait for you to reload so you can shoot him again at the same spot in the chest. Everything points to something far faster than that - not something where you need a few seconds to reload. You get shot in the chest, you feel it, you collapse to the ground, or clutch at it, or curl up around it - you don't stand there to give access to another shot for another several seconds.

The facts do not point to him as the killer. It's not quite impossible - but insanely unlikely that this is indeed the evil spawn of satan, cold, calculating, while appearing innocent, normal, and disorganized, with coordination, mental abilities maybe a decade above his biological age, gun handling abilities well beyond that, that have never shown before or since - but somehow in an interrogation room he's a wimp who rolls over to any question.

[Jacobtk]

It's been over two months now. Back and forth. No poster has a rational motive, time-line opportunity, or other reasonable weapon used to explain these gruesome bloody murders. All the evidence points to the single shot chipmunk. There wasn't an auto involved. Not one poster has stated how that isn't possible. Not even close.

The evidence against the boy is overwhelming.

If it were true, then the boy's attorneys would take the plea deal. Not taking the deal would leave the boy subject to being placed indefinitely in a mental institution (by virtue of being found incompetent due to his age). Likewise, none of the ballistic evidence has come back. There is nothing suggesting that a single-shot rifle was used beyond the boy's statements (which cannot be trusted) and the police's insistence (which is at best questionable). There a manual for a Mossberg semi-automatic rifle that held 10 .22 caliber rounds in its magazine and apparently the police have not sought out the weapon or confiscated it. Similarly, no fingerprint analysis has come back beyond the boy's print being found on the box of bullets, which does not prove anything since the state's position is that the boy is an avid hunter.

Based on the evidence that is available, it is not very likely the boy did it. Until the state can prove all the casings come from his gun and that he was the shooter (i.e. his prints are on the casings), there is more than enough reasonable doubt.

[ExPI]

Yeah, ExPI! You rock! I've got to see where I saw that. So much has come in. I couldn't believe that info when I read it and wanted to delve further. I'll try to find it but may need to post it tomorrow. I still don't know how accurate that info would be.

A poster stated last night that the possible missing Mossberg would be able to use a 10 round magazine. Would that explain the short time frame, the fact the men were shot 10 times, and the fact that no unspent shells were found at the crime scene? Seems to me the time frame calls for an automatic , semi automatic, and/or two shooters. Not a little 8 year old kid.

The unbelievable story of ANYONE killing two healthy young men with a single shot bolt action ..22 ifle in a close quarters situation was what got me interested in this case to begin with. When I saw the picture of the Mossberg pamphlet I thought "Now there is the gun that could have done this" but the gun is not found. The kid doesn't have time to hide it. The Mossberg has a ten shot magazine and can have another in the chamber ready to fire, no fumbling for shells, no racking the bolt just eleven shots just as fast as you can pull the trigger. The locations of the spent cases does not mean much. Some 22's eject vigorously some don't eject at all. Without a gun to test it is all supposition. There may have been no live .22 shells at all in the house at all. The left over live rounds are assumed to be in the 17 Hornady box but NO ONE opened it to even identify them let alone count them.

[ChildsVOICE]

No need to get personal if you don't like my answer. I accept facts - but I don't see where you have them on your side. I've given several alternates. Your scenario relies tightly on a particular firing order that doesn't make much sense to me.

You have to take several huge, enormous leaps to set up that this 8 year old did it. He's got to somehow be an undetected sociopath or otherwise severe mental defect, who somehow perfectly covers it, at 8 years old. He's got to have organizational skills and coordination that are challenging for adult military members. He's got to take out two adult men without flinching. He's got to kill one out in public, without being seen, without that one getting the gun right next to him, with Tim making the suicidal and insane decision to run into gunfire rather than away from it (one of the biggest leaps - he's got a cell, a gun, and a path to freedom by running away - and the blood trail shows him running to the door. No logic there). He's got to carry a gun and a box of ammo over his father's bloody corpse (or not yet corpse) in a tight stairway - 8 years old - short legs, lacking adult coordination. And he's got to do all of this organization, planning, cold calculation - and still be such a fool that he tells the police anything they want to hear. And while telling them what they want to hear, confessing to the worst things he could ever admit to, going along with anything they ask him - he still can't manage to even come close to the murder scene - not in number of shots, not in even the little, nonincriminatory matter of where he left the gun.

And single shot - yeah, you can kill grown men as they wait for you to reload, you shoot someone in the chest, and he'll stand there and wait for you to reload so you can shoot him again at the same spot in the chest. Everything points to something far faster than that - not something where you need a few seconds to reload. You get shot in the chest, you feel it, you collapse to the ground, or clutch at it, or curl up around it - you don't stand there to give access to another shot for another several seconds.

The facts do not point to him as the killer. It's not quite impossible - but insanely unlikely that this is indeed the evil spawn of satan, cold, calculating, while appearing innocent, normal, and disorganized, with coordination, mental abilities maybe a decade above his biological age, gun handling abilities well beyond that, that have never shown before or since - but somehow in an interrogation room he's a wimp who rolls over to any question.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::lol:

[ChildsVOICE]

And a child that sick - they show it - as that one did and had for years. You have to get to be a lot more adult to learn how to control your impulses to hide what a monster you are. You don't just jump from normal happy messy kid who loves hanging out with his dad and seems a good kid to the neighbors and at school, to a sociopathic, organized, cold-blooded, and extremely fast killer.

I agree. This boy does NOT fit the profile.