1-12 - 1/15

[muska]

Too bad they didn't waterboard Tiffany for an hour and a half!

They should have at least taken her in, put just a little pressure on.....and they should have done the same with several others as well.

[Details]

It was significant enough in his trial. It was very much a part of his case that is why the defense loaded up on firearm experts trying to refute it.

What is the difference? Spector had time to remove some of it but so did this boy have ample time to wash some away and shed many of the GSR particles by touching others and being touched. Much longer than Phil Spector had.

imooThe particles were on Spector's hands - not clothes - there's no evidence the boy's clothes were washed (quite the contrary). So - it's an entirely different scale - the number of particles you expect after a washing on skin, and the number you expect on cloth that has not been washed. Totally, massively different scales.

And Spector didn't have any reason for it to be there - he hadn't been out shooting and such - and GSR doesn't stay on hands all that long - they get washed and used too much.

The boy - he does go out shooting, any one of those pieces of clothing could have been worn on prior trips - and GSR can stay on cloth much more easily than skin, through the washing process - or the clothes may not have been washed (they appeared dirty).


I'm wearing some dirty jeans right now - I ate some wonderful lettuce wraps that were a bit messy. If you took a reading of the level of sauce on my hands - you'd likely find a scant trace. I washed them. If you looked at my jeans - significant number of particles. It's two different locations, two different situations, two very different meanings to the numbers.

[GentleBreeze]

Phil Spector had 40 minutes, this boy had under 15.

How is that, Crispy? The boy's clothing wasnt even retrieved until the following day.:confused:

imoo

[Details]

Phil Spector had 40 minutes, this boy had under 15.And as that his clothes were dirty - obviously he didn't wash them in that time, nor after.

[Perplexed1]

They should have at least taken her in, put just a little pressure on.....and they should have done the same with several others as well.

It's not always the most obvious one that did a murder. Not that there's anything obvious about a little 8 yr old boy taking down two grown men, in a matter of a few minutes.

[muska]

It seems like Tanya Romans would normally, at some point, have had to pick CRs voice from a voice line-up. That can't be done anymore because she, and the rest of the world, knows his voice from the infamous tape. So how could it ever be shown that she knew his voice? And there's no way to know that TRs statement that CR was calling her was truthful. He could have had any number of reasons to want to get off the phone.

[Details]

For it to have been a close match, wouldn't it have had to come from a blood relative? Like grandpa?This is ballistics, not DNA.

A close match - hard to say what that could be. Maybe where the scrapes match, but the firing pin is a bit off from the samples from the murder scene, etc.

[Crispy]

How is that, Crispy? The boy's clothing wasnt even retrieved until the following day.:confused:

imoo

You said he had ample time to wash some away, I took that to mean his hands.

[GentleBreeze]

The particles were on Spector's hands - not clothes - there's no evidence the boy's clothes were washed (quite the contrary). So - it's an entirely different scale - the number of particles you expect after a washing on skin, and the number you expect on cloth that has not been washed. Totally, massively different scales.

And Spector didn't have any reason for it to be there - he hadn't been out shooting and such - and GSR doesn't stay on hands all that long - they get washed and used too much.

The boy - he does go out shooting, any one of those pieces of clothing could have been worn on prior trips - and GSR can stay on cloth much more easily than skin, through the washing process - or the clothes may not have been washed (they appeared dirty).


I'm wearing some dirty jeans right now - I ate some wonderful lettuce wraps that were a bit messy. If you took a reading of the level of sauce on my hands - you'd likely find a scant trace. I washed them. If you looked at my jeans - significant number of particles. It's two different locations, two different situations, two very different meanings to the numbers.

Sorry, I don't want to be cantankerous but all it tells me that ample time had passed where much of the GSR would have been removed due to the shedding, touching others and being touched and still 3 dozen particles remained even after then.

Do you know of another case where more particles were found on a suspect's clothing than this? I have tried to research other cases but the amounts I found was much less than this. TIA

imoo

[Perplexed1]

It seems like Tanya Romans would normally, at some point, have had to pick CRs voice from a voice line-up. That can't be done anymore because she, and the rest of the world, knows his voice from the infamous tape. So how could it ever be shown that she knew his voice? And there's no way to know that TRs statement that CR was calling her was truthful. He could have had any number of reasons to want to get off the phone.

A woman's voice could sound like a little boy's soprano.

[Details]

Sorry, I don't want to be cantankerous but all it tells me that ample time had passed where much of the GSR would have been removed due to the shedding, touching others and being touched and still 3 dozen particles remained even after then.

Do you know of another case where more particles were found on a suspect's clothing than this? I have tried to research other cases but the amounts I found was much less than this. TIA

imooCan't say I'm any type of expert in GSR - so, nope, I don't know about quantities in other cases. But the experts who do know about it seem to feel that 36 particles is a small number that could have happened any number of ways, and studies posted earlier, IIRC, mentioned clothing that had been through the wash retaining GSR.

[GentleBreeze]

You said he had ample time to wash some away, I took that to mean his hands.

Oh, I am sorry, Crispy. I meant he had much more time for the GSR to shed or be rubbed away by the touching and normal friction of just wearing the clothing.

imoo

[Kara]

Omigosh! I'm gone for less than 24 hours and y'all fill this many pages of posts? Did something interesting happen? Or are we just responding to argumentative posts???

ETA...do I need to read to catch up on info I missed? Or is this just 300+ posts of debate over previously known information?

[GentleBreeze]

The boy's clothes weren't washed. Spectors hands were. Big big difference. Spector washed his hands. iirc, GSR would not still be on hands that have been washed. However, there would still be GSR on clothing even after washing, which these clothes were not. Where is all the blood that should have been found on his clothes?

Why do you think there should be a lot of blood on his clothing? The majority of blood that pooled seeped out after they had been shot imo. Why would he have any blood on his clothing?

It is interesting that in one spot on his jeans blood could be seen with the naked eye. What kind of pattern it is will be very interesting to learn. It could be blood transfer if he rubbed up against one of the victims but it also may be blood spatter if his pants were very close to one of the victims' head when he fired the weapon. Also forensic experts can run tests on clothing to see if blood or other biological is present but cant be seen by the naked eye.

imoo

[Perplexed1]

Or he could have picked some up by the touching and normal friction of hugging people after the tradgedy who may have been the real shooter.

Very interesting.

[Perplexed1]

Omigosh! I'm gone for less than 24 hours and y'all fill this many pages of posts? Did something interesting happen? Or are we just responding to argumentative posts???

We're on a roll!

[Details]

Yeah, If they got home earlier it may have been the girl he proposed to the night before. She may have gotten wind that he was sleeping with the other woman at the bar. What was her name. Or, it could have been her. or/and who is Lisa Bonilla who was a defendent in the lawsuit that Vincent was also a defendent of?An interesting thought - if it was some girlfriend of his calling him inside, he'd naturally say it was someone else - and a woman's voice isn't that dissimilar from a young boy's.

I don't know - so many possibilities - and we don't even know who does and doesn't have alibis, let alone all the players.

[bkwits]

It was significant enough in his trial. It was very much a part of his case that is why the defense loaded up on firearm experts trying to refute it.

What is the difference? Spector had time to remove some of it but so did this boy have ample time to wash some away and shed many of the GSR particles by touching others and being touched. Much longer than Phil Spector had.

imoo

As you say, too much time had elapsed between the shootings and the collection of the clothes to really show any definitive evidence. The clothes could have been contaminated by GSR by others touching him, by the clothes touching contaminate items when taken off for the night. BTW, the boy would not have washed his own clothes and GSR was not found on his skin.

IMO

[muska]

The boy's clothes weren't washed. Spectors hands were. Big big difference. Spector washed his hands. iirc, GSR would not still be on hands that have been washed. However, there would still be GSR on clothing even after washing, which these clothes were not. Where is all the blood that should have been found on his clothes?

Because this defendant was an eight year old boy at the time of the crime, I don't think we can compare much to other defendants.He would not think to do the things an adult might do.

[GentleBreeze]

Can't say I'm any type of expert in GSR - so, nope, I don't know about quantities in other cases. But the experts who do know about it seem to feel that 36 particles is a small number that could have happened any number of ways, and studies posted earlier, IIRC, mentioned clothing that had been through the wash retaining GSR.

I think it depends on the expert commenting. One of the experts that has commented in the media articles said the 3 dozen particles are a significant amount.

imoo

[wolfi_2]

If he washed off the GSR from the clothing, or hand’s, he must be a little genius, I don’t think he had ever thought about GSR.

[GentleBreeze]

As you say, too much time had elapsed between the shootings and the collection of the clothes to really show any definitive evidence. The clothes could have been contaminated by GSR by others touching him, by the clothes touching contaminate items when taken off for the night. BTW, the boy would not have washed his own clothes and GSR was not found on his skin.

IMO

They didn't test for GSR on his skin/hands, so we will never know if it was there or not.

That is where I do admit they dropped the ball. LE shouldnt have assumed that anyone was just an eye witness to the crimes. No one is ruled out when a case is first unfolding so their assumptions were ridiculous imo. They should have tested his hands that very night and then asked questions later.

imoo

[muska]

Not unless he were some sort of child prodigy of some sort.

Some would like us to believe that, but.....he was having trouble with his third grade homework......ut oh, a regular kid!

[Perplexed1]

If he washed off the GSR from the clothing, or hand’s, he must be a little genius, I don’t think he had ever thought about GSR.

Way too much credit being given to an 8 year old.

[Details]

I think it depends on the expert commenting. One of the experts that has commented in the media articles said the 3 dozen particles are a significant amount.

imooIMO, they seem to be saying the same thing in different ways. 3 dozen isn't a small amount - but nor is it all that much - is my interpretation. It's a glass is half empty/glass is half full type of thing, from my perspective.

[GentleBreeze]

If there was blood splatter, then I would be inclined to think there would be more than one spot that could be seen with the naked eye. It doesn't take much to make a spot of blood to be seen with the naked eye. Usually, imo, blood that cannot be seen with the naked eye has been attempted to be clean. Also, with brains splattering, I would think there would be some splatter on the shooter.

Not necessarily. The blood comes out in a fine mist and so does the spinal fluid. It would be hard to see on jeans which may have been dark. The location of the blood found on the jeans will also be telling. If it were higher up than the victims' bodies and it is blood spatter instead of blood transfer then how is the defense going to explain that?

imo

[Details]

Not necessarily. The blood comes out in a fine mist and so does the spinal fluid. It would be hard to see on jeans which may have been dark. The location of the blood found on the jeans will also be telling. If it were higher up than the victims' bodies and it is blood spatter instead of blood transfer then how is the defense going to explain that?

imoIf they have that - they haven't said so. Spatter would be a clear indication the child either was the shooter, or was in the room - no other possible interpretation. But they haven't said they have anything like that. And they've had a fair bit of time to be testing - the mere existience of this or that fluid on the jeans (brain, blood, spinal) shouldn't take all that long. Blood is particularly easy, and would be present when brain or spinal was likely to be present as well. A quick bit of luminol and they can see if there is a smear or spray pattern (a smear fits with finding the bodies and having contact with them, a spray fits with being there when the shots were fired).

So - where's the evidence? Because this prosecution team has NOT been shy about leaking anything that might incriminate the boy.

[GentleBreeze]

If they have that - they haven't said so. Spatter would be a clear indication the child either was the shooter, or was in the room - no other possible interpretation. But they haven't said they have anything like that. And they've had a fair bit of time to be testing - the mere existence of this or that fluid on the jeans (brain, blood, spinal) shouldn't take all that long. Blood is particularly easy, and would be present when brain or spinal was likely to be present as well. A quick bit of luminol and they can see if there is a smear or spray pattern (a smear fits with finding the bodies and having contact with them, a spray fits with being there when the shots were fired).

So - where's the evidence? Because this prosecution team has NOT been shy about leaking anything that might incriminate the boy.

Luminol can destroy evidence. They use a new technique that shows things that were not seen by the naked eye and it does not destroy the evidence.

All we know that supplementals have been turned over. We do not have the full disclosures of what those supplementals contain.

I think they will keep somethings close to their vest. Just because they leak some does not ever mean they leak all.

I do think however if this case is tossed the full evidence will be leaked or released to the media but until then they will go at their own pace.

I noticed in the January 6th hearing the defense is not nearly asking for as much discovery as they have been. IMO, they have already been given most of the results but all of those have not leaked yet.

I think the initial trajectory testing on the weapon has been done but they have sent the weapon out for further lab testing. Perhaps to verify that all 10 shell casings were fired from this weapon or to see if any biological matter is on the barrel of the weapon.

imoo

[suzanne]

If they have that - they haven't said so. Spatter would be a clear indication the child either was the shooter, or was in the room - no other possible interpretation. But they haven't said they have anything like that. And they've had a fair bit of time to be testing - the mere existience of this or that fluid on the jeans (brain, blood, spinal) shouldn't take all that long. Blood is particularly easy, and would be present when brain or spinal was likely to be present as well. A quick bit of luminol and they can see if there is a smear or spray pattern (a smear fits with finding the bodies and having contact with them, a spray fits with being there when the shots were fired).

So - where's the evidence? Because this prosecution team has NOT been shy about leaking anything that might incriminate the boy.
Yes,Where is the evidence?

[GentleBreeze]

gentlebreeze,
are you playing devils advocate or do you really care what happens with the innocent child here?

I don't look at this case any differently than I do the countless other cases I have discussed here for many years. I give my opinion. I dont play games like being a devil's advocate.

I did think the boy that was on trial in MS was innocent and I was glad to see he was acquitted.

However; in this case I don't see an innocent child. If you do, then that is quite fine because you are entitled to believe as you wish on this message board and so am I. Should there be exonerating evidence shown then I will and can change my opinion quickly.

I wish I did see something that points toward his innocence. But my wishes don't make things come true. If I had my wishes Vincent Romero and Tim Romans would be alive today and this boy would be in school getting an education, instead of charged with premeditated double homicide.

imoo

[suzanne]

Luminol can destroy evidence. They use a new technique that shows things that were not seen by the naked eye and it does not destroy the evidence.

All we know that supplementals have been turned over. We do not have the full disclosures of what those supplementals contain.

I think they will keep somethings close to their vest. Just because they leak some does not ever mean they leak all.

I do think however if this case is tossed the full evidence will be leaked or released to the media but until then they will go at their own pace.

I noticed in the January 6th hearing the defense is not nearly asking for as much discovery as they have been. IMO, they have already been given most of the results but all of those have not leaked yet.

I think the initial trajectory testing on the weapon has been done but they have sent the weapon out for further lab testing. Perhaps to verify that all 10 shell casings were fired from this weapon or to see if any biological matter is on the barrel of the weapon.

imoo

None of this evidence will convict him any way.It's not enough.He will be let off because he is not competent to aide in his own defense.

[Details]

Luminol can destroy evidence. They use a new technique that shows things that were not seen by the naked eye and it does not destroy the evidence.

All we know that supplementals have been turned over. We do not have the full disclosures of what those supplementals contain.

I think they will keep somethings close to their vest. Just because they leak some does not ever mean they leak all....I don't know - it doesn't seem to fit that they'd leak the confession, and the GSR - their two weakest bits of info, IMO, two things that the experts can easily say are highly questionable (or, stupid, stupid, STUPID!) - and keep secret the high quality, solid evidence. Doesn't seem to fit any possible motive for leaking evidence, managing the case.

[suzanne]

I don't look at this case any differently than I do the countless other cases I have discussed here for many years. I give my opinion. I dont play games like being a devil's advocate.

I did think the boy that was on trial in MS was innocent and I was glad to see he was acquitted.

However; in this case I don't see an innocent child. If you do, then that is quite fine because you are entitled to believe as you wish on this message board and so am I. Should there be exonerating evidence shown then I will and can change my opinion quickly.

I wish I did see something that points toward his innocence. But my wishes don't make things come true. If I had my wishes Vincent Romero and Tim Romans would be alive today and this boy would be in school getting an education, instead of charged with premeditated double homicide.

imoo

I see this little boy as a victim on all counts.We do not know everything that has gone on.

[suzanne]

I don't know - it doesn't seem to fit that they'd leak the confession, and the GSR - their two weakest bits of info, IMO, two things that the experts can easily say are highly questionable (or, stupid, stupid, STUPID!) - and keep secret the high quality, solid evidence. Doesn't seem to fit any possible motive for leaking evidence, managing the case.

I agree.Most of this so called evidence will be thrown out because of police screw ups.Yes,they were stupid,stupid and stupid.

[muska]

well, then I guess they would need to find someplace that will say they are a match.

And even if it is a match, it won't tell us who the shooter was.

[muska]

I was thinking about the dog....

It's my understanding the dog was in the cage. If I'm wrong PLEASE:punch: me....

I would think with all the gun shots going off...the dog would be barking up a storm...trying to get out of that cage!

Ms. Roman heard "young boy's voice" while on a cell phone but no dog barking in the background?

Did anyone check the cage for blood or even check the dog's fur?

I believe CR said he let the dog out when he came into the house. That's all I remember hearing about the dog.

Does anyone know if Tiffany gave the dog, wallet and snowboard back to the boy?

[Hawk]

I would think she could hear a dog barking better than a little boy's voice, depending on the breed of dog. What breed is the dog?


The dog is a boxer pup named Nellie. The child said he let her out of the cage. Seems she'd be pretty frisky with all that went on. Unless, of course the men were dead when she was released.
She may well have blood on her though.

[Hawk]

yeah, unless Tiffinay bathed Nellie as fast as she cleaned the house.

There may have been bloody paw prints had she gone to Mr. Romans. You can easily trace that at night with a $15 blood trail light that hunters use. I didn't read of any such light being used by the Sheriff's dept when they took photos.

[suzanne]

There may have been bloody paw prints had she gone to Mr. Romans. You can easily trace that at night with a $15 blood trail light that hunters use. I didn't read of any such light being used by the Sheriff's dept when they took photos.

May I please ask where did the police say they found the puppy when they got there?

[ExPI]

The boy fires eight shots in an enclosed area and only gets 36 microscopic particles on him. The officers in their reports are very precise that one bagged the clothes and another bagged the shoes but there is nothing in the report that causes me to thik that hey put the pants and the shirt in separate bags. The shirt could have been cross containated by the pants or vice versa. I really need to be convinced that he could have killed two men with the Chipmunk rifle.
There is very little said about the dog in the reports, maybe the dog was in an outside pen.

[suzanne]

I need to try and sleep now.I always lay there for a long time and can't sleep.So good night.:closedeyes:

[muska]

Even if the dog were in an outside pen, surely anybody could have heard her barking with all the hulla ballu going on. Before and after the police arrived. I don't know many pups that would be so calm with activity going on, friend or foe.

He just said when he came in, he let the dog out....maybe Nellie was barking and that caught his attention. Avila asked him where the dog was when something was happening(I forget exactly what) and he said he wasn't sure if she was still outside or had come back into the house. He was being honest...he didn't know. I think if he was lying, he'd make up more specific answers.

I think the dog was there somewhere; he even mentioned that the dog wasn't hurt.

[JusticeDawg©]

Thanks. I was under the impression the report actually stated why the firearm was going to have further testing done on it but I see that is only Diaczuk's assumptions.

I think that has already been done along with the trajectory data. In one of the supplemental discovery motions it stated that over 20 pages of diagrams done by DPR had been turned over.

IMO it is being sent to a specialized lab that can retrieve not only fingerprints but also biological evidence that may be on it.

imooSpin it all you want!
TEXAS CRIME LAB REPORT!!

The report recommended that the ammunition and weapon be submitted for further testing.

[ExPI]

http://www.abc15.com/Photo.aspx?slideshow=a02b70a1-990e-43ba-8dd8-69e6acf5a4e0&photo=7ca1cd22-3f97-494a-acc2-7d48522fe780

There was an outside kennel on the far side of the driveway. I knew I saw that somewhere.

[JusticeDawg©]

I'm gonna turn in too. I am 50 yo and graduated from college last month. still trying to find a job. who would have ever thought the economy would go belly up? I quit my job last year just so I could finish school and get a better job. :ohmy: :rolleyes:

Good for you! Good Luck and Good Night!

[muska]

http://www.abc15.com/Photo.aspx?slideshow=a02b70a1-990e-43ba-8dd8-69e6acf5a4e0&photo=7ca1cd22-3f97-494a-acc2-7d48522fe780

There was an outside kennel on the far side of the driveway. I knew I saw that somewhere.

He said that was for Nellie when he was playing outside.

[JusticeDawg©]

I was thinking about the dog....

It's my understanding the dog was in the cage. If I'm wrong PLEASE:punch: me....

I would think with all the gun shots going off...the dog would be barking up a storm...trying to get out of that cage!

Ms. Roman heard "young boy's voice" while on a cell phone but no dog barking in the background?

Did anyone check the cage for blood or even check the dog's fur?


OMG! That is BRILLIANT! I never thought of that!

[JusticeDawg©]

There may have been bloody paw prints had she gone to Mr. Romans. You can easily trace that at night with a $15 blood trail light that hunters use. I didn't read of any such light being used by the Sheriff's dept when they took photos.


Would Mayberry RFD even think to do that? :blink:

[JusticeDawg©]

http://www.abc15.com/Photo.aspx?slideshow=a02b70a1-990e-43ba-8dd8-69e6acf5a4e0&photo=7ca1cd22-3f97-494a-acc2-7d48522fe780

There was an outside kennel on the far side of the driveway. I knew I saw that somewhere.

If she were in that, right by where Tim was shot 6 times, she would have really went nuts!

[muska]

I was thinking about the dog....

It's my understanding the dog was in the cage. If I'm wrong PLEASE:punch: me....

I would think with all the gun shots going off...the dog would be barking up a storm...trying to get out of that cage!

Ms. Roman heard "young boy's voice" while on a cell phone but no dog barking in the background?

Did anyone check the cage for blood or even check the dog's fur?

It sure does seem like the dog would be making lots of noise. Someone will probably say that the boy thought to put the dog away somewhere but there's no way the kid planned and thought of all the things some would like to give him credit for....it's not like we've seen any signs he was a real organized child.

Well, good night!

[wolfi_2]

It sure does seem like the dog would be making lots of noise. Someone will probably say that the boy thought to put the dog away somewhere but there's no way the kid planned and thought of all the things some would like to give him credit for....it's not like we've seen any signs he was a real organized child.

Well, good night!

Dogs know, I don’t know why, but they know when something wrong is going on and yes the dog would make a lot of noise!
My parent’s had a boxer too, and I like to have one also, but my job keep’s me of from a puppy.

[JusticeDawg©]

Dogs know, I don’t know why, but they know when something wrong is going on and yes the dog would make a lot of noise!
My parent’s had a boxer too, and I like to have one also, but my job keep’s me of from a puppy.

She is a pretty big puppy. This was Nov 23rd.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_uW2A0qBmToo/SSrxw-fYCnI/AAAAAAAAAGI/dAzdPlsGGpI/s1600-h/DSC01567.JPG

[JusticeDawg©]

It sure does seem like the dog would be making lots of noise. Someone will probably say that the boy thought to put the dog away somewhere but there's no way the kid planned and thought of all the things some would like to give him credit for....it's not like we've seen any signs he was a real organized child.

Well, good night!

Yeah, like his bedroom LOL
Night!:seeya:

[JusticeDawg©]

A .22 does would make very little if any splatter upon ENTRY but more on the EXIT. I would assume that if he had splatter then he would not be on the shooting end of the gun. A .22 makes a very small entrance wound, bounces around and if it exits then it will splatter upon exiting.
IMHO

That is what happened with our Deer experiment with the Chipmunk gun.

[tif]

I hadn't thought about the dog until the rest of you brought it up. If Vincent was being shot while Tim was outside on the phone, wouldn't Tim have heard the dog barking? It's been my experience that the sound of a barking dog will carry through just about anything. Wouldn't Tanya have heard the dog?

Do we know where the dog was when the police arrived?

[JusticeDawg©]

I hadn't thought about the dog until the rest of you brought it up. If Vincent was being shot while Tim was outside on the phone, wouldn't Tim have heard the dog barking? It's been my experience that the sound of a barking dog will carry through just about anything. Wouldn't Tanya have heard the dog?

Do we know where the dog was when the police arrived?

Her cage was right by the front door. IF she was in it, she was going insane. I don't know how Tanya & Tim could NOT have heard her.

LE Never said.

[ExPI]

The following is a quote from the article article SHOT THROUGH THE HEART - What Gunshot Residue Can and Can't Tell in Forensic Science

"Primer is generally made up of barium nitrate and antimony sulfide; however, most .22 ammunition does not have antimony"

The video report says clothing was tested for "barium, lead and antimony". Lead could have come from many sources, antimony is not present in .22 shells this leaves barium if the GSR came from the boy's .22. I am getting tired and not as sharp as I could be but I feel like this is important.

[wolfi_2]

Her cage was right by the front door. IF she was in it, she was going insane. I don't know how Tanya & Tim could NOT have heard her.

LE Never said.

It would be interesting if any neighbor heard the dog around the time of the shootings.

[JusticeDawg©]

The following is a quote from the article article SHOT THROUGH THE HEART - What Gunshot Residue Can and Can't Tell in Forensic Science

"Primer is generally made up of barium nitrate and antimony sulfide; however, most .22 ammunition does not have antimony"

The video report says clothing was tested for "barium, lead and antimony". Lead could have come from many sources, antimony is not present in .22 shells this leaves barium if the GSR came from the boy's .22. I am getting tired and not as sharp as I could be but I feel like this is important.

I'd have to say that is why further testing is required.

JMHO

:thumbsup:

[JusticeDawg©]

It would be interesting if any neighbor heard the dog around the time of the shootings.

The guy right next door (back side) got home at 4:45 pm. He said he heard nothing.

It had to be someone the dog knew WELL.

[JusticeDawg©]

She got really bad remarks from the local press here in Phoenix when she was on GMA because she wasn't screaming from the roof tops that he was innocent, that he didn't do this, etc. There is one particular afternoon talk show that was particularly hard on her.

I know for me...I would probably be in jail because I would be making such a scene and probably slapping to two female LE's silly. I'm sure her age has a lot to do with how she is handling the situation. I have a daughter her age and I don't know that she would be as aggressive with the authorities as a "seasoned mom" like me. I also think lack of education might be a factor as well...although I would hope her attorney would guide her a bit.

I have a daughter her age too, but she is a school teacher and is uhh... outspoken. She'd be screaming from the rooftops. :lol:

[JusticeDawg©]

Does anyone know where Tiffany worked in St. Johns?

Yes, the PT Center. Someone has a link I am sure.

She didn't work that day.

Here is a co-worker's blog:
Vincent Romero was my co-worker's husband. They have been married 2 months.
And it was not authorities who found both men, it was their 8 year old son.
Please keep these families in your prayers.
I find it absolutely disgusting how people can just go up to a man and shoot them. What is wrong with this world.
Everything happened around 5 PM that day, but Tiffany sent us a fax out of no where, and she
said she just "felt" like it had to be said, and she said it hit her hard. There were feelings this whole day that she should just call her husband and apologize, and say I love you, thirty minutes before the incident happened. And the little boy had a feeling to not go home yet, so he walked around the block for a long time.

http://bethanygentry.blogspot.com/2008/11/tragic.html

[wolfi_2]

The guy right next door (back side) got home at 4:45 pm. He said he heard nothing.

It had to be someone the dog knew WELL.


sorry, but never mind , A dog knows when something is wrong, they feel it (I can´t it explain better) ,a dog will surely hear the shooting´s and also both man when they are make some crying noise, I don´t think that both men died without any cry.

But now it´s also for me bedtime, god night !:closedeyes:

[JusticeDawg©]

sorry, but never mind , A dog knows when something is wrong, they feel it (I can´t it explain better) ,a dog will surely hear the shooting´s and also both man when they are make some crying noise, I don´t think that both men died without any cry.

But now it´s also for me bedtime, god night !:closedeyes:

I understand. I am sure the dog went nuts, but a would have been more aggressive toward a stranger.

Night!

[Details]

The following is a quote from the article article SHOT THROUGH THE HEART - What Gunshot Residue Can and Can't Tell in Forensic Science

"Primer is generally made up of barium nitrate and antimony sulfide; however, most .22 ammunition does not have antimony"

The video report says clothing was tested for "barium, lead and antimony". Lead could have come from many sources, antimony is not present in .22 shells this leaves barium if the GSR came from the boy's .22. I am getting tired and not as sharp as I could be but I feel like this is important.This is important for being a correct choice by whoever requested the testing. They should test for all three, even if they only expect to see two if the boy is the shooter - because they should be testing for the exculpatory evidence as well. Testing for only two would probably be irregular, and a huge red flag.

[JusticeDawg©]

This is important for being a correct choice by whoever requested the testing. They should test for all three, even if they only expect to see two if the boy is the shooter - because they should be testing for the exculpatory evidence as well. Testing for only two would probably be irregular, and a huge red flag.

Exculpatory evidence is usually what the pros. try to hide.

:tongueside:

[fairlaw]

You are so right. I'm really glad that you are staying on top of this case.

[PensiveOne]

There was a press release on the court website I had not seen. There is not a lot in there, but here it is:
http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/Press%20Releases/JV2008065%20PRESS%20RELEASE%20JANUARY%206,%202009. pdf

[muska]

She got really bad remarks from the local press here in Phoenix when she was on GMA because she wasn't screaming from the roof tops that he was innocent, that he didn't do this, etc. There is one particular afternoon talk show that was particularly hard on her.

I know for me...I would probably be in jail because I would be making such a scene and probably slapping to two female LE's silly. I'm sure her age has a lot to do with how she is handling the situation. I have a daughter her age and I don't know that she would be as aggressive with the authorities as a "seasoned mom" like me. I also think lack of education might be a factor as well...although I would hope her attorney would guide her a bit.

Maybe she'd lose visitation rights if she said too much....that threat would keep most moms in her situation quiet. I wonder if there's someone else who could speak out for her.

I think she has her own attorney so that person must be advising her.

[muska]

There was a press release on the court website I had not seen. There is not a lot in there, but here it is:
http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/Press%20Releases/JV2008065%20PRESS%20RELEASE%20JANUARY%206,%202009. pdf

It says that until a decision regarding the therapist is made "counseling services currently being provided will continue." These services are with the probation officer who can report back to the court.....seems very unfair. Why is this being allowed?

[muska]

Yes, the PT Center. Someone has a link I am sure.

She didn't work that day.

Here is a co-worker's blog:
Vincent Romero was my co-worker's husband. They have been married 2 months.
And it was not authorities who found both men, it was their 8 year old son.
Please keep these families in your prayers.
I find it absolutely disgusting how people can just go up to a man and shoot them. What is wrong with this world.
Everything happened around 5 PM that day, but Tiffany sent us a fax out of no where, and she
said she just "felt" like it had to be said, and she said it hit her hard. There were feelings this whole day that she should just call her husband and apologize, and say I love you, thirty minutes before the incident happened. And the little boy had a feeling to not go home yet, so he walked around the block for a long time.

http://bethanygentry.blogspot.com/2008/11/tragic.html

Tiffany was on video at Wilburs at 4:20 that afternoon getting donuts and milk for work. She went back to Wilburs a short time later(approximately 4:45/Neckels) according to the receipt she produced, to get food for dinner. Don't you think she must have taken the donuts back to work? So she must have worked that day?

[suzanne]

She got really bad remarks from the local press here in Phoenix when she was on GMA because she wasn't screaming from the roof tops that he was innocent, that he didn't do this, etc. There is one particular afternoon talk show that was particularly hard on her.

I know for me...I would probably be in jail because I would be making such a scene and probably slapping to two female LE's silly. I'm sure her age has a lot to do with how she is handling the situation. I have a daughter her age and I don't know that she would be as aggressive with the authorities as a "seasoned mom" like me. I also think lack of education might be a factor as well...although I would hope her attorney would guide her a bit.
She said what ever happened to innocent untill proven guilty.I really feel she didn't need to say any more than that.

[muska]

Not if she just said the donuts and milk were for work and then went home. Why would she be buying donuts and milk for work at 4:20 in the afternoon and then 25 minutes later be buying food for dinner?

How could she send a fax at 5 to a co worker?

Maybe she was setting up an alibi. After the trip for donuts, she might have realized she wasn't there long enough and wasn't covered for the right time frame so she went back or got a receipt from an accomplice.
She said the donuts were for work....does that mean for that very afternoon or the next morning? If she said they were for that day, she must have taken them back or her co-workers would be suspicious of the alibi. If for the next morning, that should be a Huge Red Flag - why would she be in and out of the store twice in such a short time? She would have just gotten the donuts and her own things on the same trip.

I think the fax was later that evening....it sounds like it's after the shootings, don't you think? That's how I took it.

[Kara]

She is a pretty big puppy. This was Nov 23rd.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_uW2A0qBmToo/SSrxw-fYCnI/AAAAAAAAAGI/dAzdPlsGGpI/s1600-h/DSC01567.JPG

The grieving widow looks simply devastated by her loss there, doesn't she.

[wolfi_2]

The grieving widow looks simply devastated by her loss there, doesn't she.

It looks like they have some fun, -the boy haven't !

[JD1974]

I don't think I've seen this here before....another interesting look at the boy's interview/"confession" and how he was manipulated by Avila/Neckels.

http://www.convolutedbrian.com/interrogation-of-the-child.html



From your link...Avila makes me so sick!

At the end Commander Matrese Avila showed her huge, cold, brass balls. She asked the child to hug each of the women before he was taken away. This was after they had lied to him, called him honey, touched him, and finally gave him the shaft. He did not respond to Avila’s effrontery.

[wolfi_2]

From your link...Avila makes me so sick!

At the end Commander Matrese Avila showed her huge, cold, brass balls. She asked the child to hug each of the women before he was taken away. This was after they had lied to him, called him honey, touched him, and finally gave him the shaft. He did not respond to Avila’s effrontery.

just feelingless!:thumbdown:

[JD1974]

Not if she just said the donuts and milk were for work and then went home. Why would she be buying donuts and milk for work at 4:20 in the afternoon and then 25 minutes later be buying food for dinner?

How could she send a fax at 5 to a co worker?


I would think the donuts and milk would of been for the next day of work, that is more like a breakfast food. Why didn't she get stuff for dinner while she was already there? I am wondering how she sent a fax also, maybe from the store! WAIT is that co-worker saying she sent the fax at 5pm the day of the shootings????

[wolfi_2]

two link´s of the today´s action

http://www.cofad1.state.az.us/calendars/JANUARY/01-13-DEPTC.pdf
http://www.cofad1.state.az.us/casefiles/sa/sa080294.pdf

[JD1974]

Thanks Wolfi!

[JD1974]

sure reads like she did. and it says it came from nowhere.??? Sounds like something out of the ordinary to me.

More importantly at 5pm how did she know what had happened?

I wish we knew exactly when she faxed it and from where...if it was the store while she was shopping?

[muska]

I would think the donuts and milk would of been for the next day of work, that is more like a breakfast food. Why didn't she get stuff for dinner while she was already there? I am wondering how she sent a fax also, maybe from the store! WAIT is that co-worker saying she sent the fax at 5pm the day of the shootings????

I wonder if St Johns police even asked whether the donuts were for that day or the next. They definitely should have...if they were for the next day that would be very suspicious! The only reason Tiffany might have had to go to the store twice would be if she had to get the donuts back to the office right away that afternoon.

The way Neckels asks Tiffany about the two trips was uncomfortable too. Neckels just gave Tiffany the info about what was bought and when, no asking, "so exactly what did you buy" or anything like that. Just bought her story. No pressuring her at all....I guess that would have been tougher than pressuring an eight year old.

I don't know about that fax...I have always thought it was later in the day. I can't imagine she sent it at 5PM....that just doesn't seem at all likely. Does anyone know where it can be found? Too much info to keep track of!!

[JD1974]

Does anyone know where it can be found? Too much info to keep track of!!


I am looking!

[muska]

I reread the blog. It is dated Nov. 7 at 5:44 AM. Perhaps Tiffany sent the fax on Nov. 6 to explain why she wasn't at work that day. Tiffany did not disclose that the boy was the suspect. Still odd to send afax rather than have someone phone work for her. I don't believe anyone would send a fax the morning after such a tragedy. Very very odd.

By the 7th at 5:44 AM, the child was already charged....doesn't make sense.

Could you possibly give us the link?

[tif]

I don't know about that fax...I have always thought it was later in the day. I can't imagine she sent it at 5PM....that just doesn't seem at all likely. Does anyone know where it can be found? Too much info to keep track of!!

The fax doesn't really bother me. She may have just not been able to discuss what happened on the phone. She wouldn't need a fax machine. You can send a fax from a computer. At least from a windows computer, I don't know about Apple.

[JusticeDawg©]

Tiffany was on video at Wilburs at 4:20 that afternoon getting donuts and milk for work. She went back to Wilburs a short time later(approximately 4:45/Neckels) according to the receipt she produced, to get food for dinner. Don't you think she must have taken the donuts back to work? So she must have worked that day?

Reciept is checkout time. So she was home by 4:50?

[JusticeDawg©]

two link´s of the today´s action

http://www.cofad1.state.az.us/calendars/JANUARY/01-13-DEPTC.pdf
http://www.cofad1.state.az.us/casefiles/sa/sa080294.pdf

A Justice is out and a woman justice is sitting in. :thumbup:

[muska]

Reciept is checkout time. So she was home by 4:50?

According to Neckels, the receipt showed approximately 4:45. She couldn't remember the exact time. On the way out, tiffany stopped and talked with Jean and Jason Kirk in the parking lot. Then she went to NAPA. She was only there a couple of minutes when she got the call from the boy at 5:12. Someone did confirm seeing her at NAPA.

Neckles said she had not confirmed all times. She said something like, "But the times were slightly, I , I didn't know. I was waiting to confirm them."

[JusticeDawg©]

I bring dount several times a month for my team at work. I always buy them in the morning on my way TO work. Never the night before. They are stale and have been sitting at the store all day. Sounds like she was setting something up...although I don't think she was the actually trigger puller but I do think she is involved. AND if the fax it "random" the LE should be all over this.

Has anyone been able to confirm if she really took her ring of, took her maiden name back and left town yet? I assume she would either go back to Flagstaff or down to the valley and I haven't been able to find anything. I would think she would have a more difficult time slipping back into annoniminity than the boy.


She went right back to living in the house. She left town one time for sure "to get away from all of the "Drama" as a family member puts it on this website. Wood checked these people out already: http://axtonromero.blogspot.com/2008/11/tiffany-romero-in-town.html

I don't know what he got out of it, except like we have been saying "grieving widow" was the subject of his email to me.

[JusticeDawg©]

According to Neckels, the receipt showed approximately 4:45. She couldn't remember the exact time. On the way out, tiffany stopped and talked with Jean and Jason Kirk in the parking lot. Then she went to NAPA. She was only there a couple of minutes when she got the call from the boy at 5:12. Someone did confirm seeing her at NAPA.

Neckles said she had not confirmed all times. She said something like, "But the times were slightly, I , I didn't know. I was waiting to confirm them."

Well I can tell you they are "off""

k?

[Kara]

The fax doesn't really bother me. She may have just not been able to discuss what happened on the phone. She wouldn't need a fax machine. You can send a fax from a computer. At least from a windows computer, I don't know about Apple.I think the fax is really strange. Who sends a fax for personal communication? If it was sent from a computer, why not just email?

[JusticeDawg©]

how far is the store from home? she was there at 4:20 first. then back again at 4:45. that's 20 minutes. the murders occured at what time?

how long did she talk in the parking lot? 4:45 to 5:12 is almost 30 minutes. how far away from home is NAPA?

really important is, did she actually take the donuts back to work after she bought them???

Both place are approx 2 mins from her house. No she did not return to work. She got off work early that day for a Drs. appointment. (someone said she took the whole day off) The gag is stopping me from finding out exactly which one is true. But one IS true.

[muska]

Well I can tell you they are "off""

k?

Oh that doesn't surprise me! This is just the info I've seen here or there. There have been more mistakes, though, than not...

[muska]

Both place are approx 2 mins from her house. No she did not return to work. She got off work early that day for a Drs. appointment. (someone said she took the whole day off) The gag is stopping me from finding out exactly which one is true. But one IS true.

Then going twice to Wilburs looks even more like she was setting up an alibi....even more so because she didn't offer to Neckels that she was at the store twice until she got caught about that by Neckels. She would have known that would look suspicious.

[JusticeDawg©]

Oh that doesn't surprise me! This is just the info I've seen here or there. There have been more mistakes, though, than not...

Nothing adds up when it comes to Tiffany.

When did she have a fight with VR's co-worker because he wouldn't let VR off to go to the Dr's with her?

[JusticeDawg©]

I think the fax is really strange. Who sends a fax for personal communication? If it was sent from a computer, why not just email?

Or have her Grandmother call them. She stayed there the first night. Maybe Grandma has a fax machine.:wink:

[wolfi_2]

There are a few questions I have about Tiffany,
Did they collect any clothing from her for GSR test?
Did they take fingerprint´s ?
Are there maybe some friendship or relationship with members of the police department ?

[JusticeDawg©]

There are a few questions I have about Tiffany,
Did they collect any clothing from her for GSR test?
Did they take fingerprint´s ?
Are there maybe some friendship or relationship with members of the police department ?

1- No
2- No
3- Unknown

[muska]

Nothing adds up when it comes to Tiffany.

When did she have a fight with VR's co-worker because he wouldn't let VR off to go to the Dr's with her?

All I see is that Kevin Counts said that Tiffany had called him recently to ask it he knew about any problems between VR and TR and Larry Curley. VR had asked Counts for time off for the doctor's appt and he had approved it, but Curley was VRs foreman and Curley was unhappy about the time off request. He threatened to write VR up and both VR and TR threatened to quit. Doesn't say how it was resolved or what day VR wanted off...just recently.

[JusticeDawg©]

Wonder what she and VR were fighting about on the 5th???

He didn't really want to go to the Dr's with her.

[muska]

1- No
2- No
3- Unknown

It's just ridiculous!

I definitely have to go and get some work done! I'll check back later!!

[muska]

He didn't really want to go to the Dr's with her.

Interesting!!

[wolfi_2]

1- No
2- No
3- Unknown



Well, that makes me wonder, normally in all that cases, mostly a women is involved, If I was a police investigator I would take some of this stuff also, just to make sure that she wasn´t involved in the shooting´s.

[tif]

I think the fax is really strange. Who sends a fax for personal communication? If it was sent from a computer, why not just email?

People don't always check their email regularly. In a small office a new fax coming in would be more noticeable. I've used a fax myself in those circumstances. It doesn't take any more time.

Most of us have been up in arms, and rightly so, when LE and other posters here have labeled perfectly ordinary actions by the boy as suspect. We were quick to challenge those assertions for the boy's sake; I think we should give the same benefit of the doubt to other family members. I just can't get worked up about why someone would send a fax instead of an email.

[JD1974]

I reread the blog. It is dated Nov. 7 at 5:44 AM. Perhaps Tiffany sent the fax on Nov. 6 to explain why she wasn't at work that day. Tiffany did not disclose that the boy was the suspect. Still odd to send afax rather than have someone phone work for her. I don't believe anyone would send a fax the morning after such a tragedy. Very very odd.


No kidding and the stuff about how she knew all day that she should of called and said she loved him because she felt something was wrong all day. Also she says the boy knew something too so he walked around after school that day...so freaking weird! Why do you add all of that to a fax of why you aren't coming into work? Especially the part about the boy!!!!

[wolfi_2]

VR didn't even want anymore children.
Defense Investigating too, don't forget that. :wink:


I just like the defense team more and more:thumbup:

[JD1974]

oh yeah, does anyone know who Lisa Bonilla is from the lawsuit she was defendent #2 and VR was defendent #1 in?

Could that be the mother of his daughter?

[JusticeDawg©]

No kidding and the stuff about how she knew all day that she should of called and said she loved him because she felt something was wrong all day. Also she says the boy knew something too so he walked around after school that day...so freaking weird! Why do you add all of that to a fax of why you aren't coming into work? Especially the part about the boy!!!!

I didn't see anywhere where she said she was sorry nobody got their donuts the next morning.


:chicken:

[JusticeDawg©]

Could that be the mother of his daughter?

We know who it is, is it just buried in a thread somewhere LOL

[JD1974]

Also, I recall the report from the sheriff, I think, that when after the "interview" he brought the boy into his office for a while and they sat there and talked a bit. The boy stated he did NOT want Avila there AT ALL and did NOT wish to speak with her. Gee...I can't imagine why!!!

:rolleyes:


No kidding, he probably thought she was going to make him tell some more tales! I bet she could of gotten him to confess to assassinating JFK, we could of had it solved in 20 min with her on the job!

[Hawk]

A Justice is out and a woman justice is sitting in. :thumbup:

She' Avila's sister.

[JD1974]

I just can't get worked up about why someone would send a fax instead of an email.


My problem is WHY put all of that extra information there? I don't care if it was a fax. Why put that she knew something bad was going to happen that day, she felt it and should of called VR and apologized, why would you broadcast that to co-workers? Unless they knew about the fight....Also she talks about the boy had the same feeling because he walked around before going home...just really strange!

[Perplexed1]

I SURE HOPE SOMEONE'S TAKING A CLOSER LOOK AT THAT TIFFANY!:glare:

[JD1974]

What???? The judge is??? Shouldn't she excuse herself then? (or is the word recuse?)


Yes recuse. I hope Hawk is just kidding though lol If not...man that is one messed up county!

[Perplexed1]

She went right back to living in the house. She left town one time for sure "to get away from all of the "Drama" as a family member puts it on this website. Wood checked these people out already: http://axtonromero.blogspot.com/2008/11/tiffany-romero-in-town.html

I don't know what he got out of it, except like we have been saying "grieving widow" was the subject of his email to me.

Greiving my A**

[JusticeDawg©]

Did he tell Tiffinay that? I read somewhere that Tiffany came to the house and was crying and saying they were going to have children together or something to that effect. Does that mean she was already pregnant or they were planning to have children (or she was planning to have children?)
Yes he did, he also told other people.
She put on a good show. She wanted children.
She has Cervical Cancer.

[Perplexed1]

No kidding, he probably thought she was going to make him tell some more tales! I bet she could of gotten him to confess to assassinating JFK, we could of had it solved in 20 min with her on the job!

Avila the hun :sneaky:

[Hawk]

Yes recuse. I hope Hawk is just kidding though lol If not...man that is one messed up county!

Kidding, yes. Sorry.
But in this case anything can happen.

[JusticeDawg©]

She' Avila's sister.

:punch::punch:hammer

[JusticeDawg©]

Avila the hun :sneaky:

:lol::lol:

[JusticeDawg©]

Oh that's sad. Having cervical cancer is. did she have good health insurance? my sister died of breast cancer and it's not something that you can pay on your own. even with insurance, it's expensive. this sounds awful but if she is behind the shootings, could this be a motive?
Snapped!
:wink::wink::wink:

[wolfi_2]

:lol::lol:

sorry, but from my kind of view, not so funny

[JusticeDawg©]

sorry, but from my kind of view, not so funny

opps, sorry.
I love ya wolfie!


:chicken:

[JD1974]

Oh that's sad. Having cervical cancer is. did she have good health insurance? my sister died of breast cancer and it's not something that you can pay on your own. even with insurance, it's expensive. this sounds awful but if she is behind the shootings, could this be a motive?


If she has cervical cancer she may be ok and still be able to have kids if they caught it in time. You can get a LEEP procedure done which takes the cancerous cells off the cervix and then cauterizes where the cells were removed. If like me after the LEEP is done it comes back, well then it's adoption time....I was done having kids when I found out I had it.


I am so sorry to hear about your sister..I skimmed the post and missed that. I feel like an a$$

[JusticeDawg©]

I agree!

A whole new investigation needs to be done. I can think of a few people with motive in this case.

I believe the 8 yr. old and his first account of what happened. I'm glad he took his walk around the block a few times because otherwise....I can't even type it.:crying:

Divine Intervention.

[wolfi_2]

opps, sorry.
I love ya wolfie!


:chicken:


accepted:loveeyes:

[bkwits]

Could that be the mother of his daughter?


Good morning. I believe the mother's name is Chavez. Like Dawg said the identity of this Lisa Bonilla is back in the threads somewhere. IIRC, it was a work related problem.

[JusticeDawg©]

If she has cervical cancer she may be ok and still be able to have kids if they caught it in time. You can get a LEEP procedure done which takes the cancerous cells off the cervix and then cauterizes where the cells were removed. If like me after the LEEP is done it comes back, well then it's adoption time....I was done having kids when I found out I had it.

It really doesn't matter when your spouse doesn't want anymore children.

He already had 2 kids, remember?

[tif]

I agree!

A whole new investigation needs to be done. I can think of a few people with motive in this case.

I believe the 8 yr. old and his first account of what happened. I'm glad he took his walk around the block a few times because otherwise....I can't even type it.:crying:

The boy's first account was the most logical thing to come out of this case. Who knows what he was doing before he went home. He was eight. He could have been off digging a hole in a vacant lot for all anyone knows. A perfectly legitimate pastime for an eight year old.

[wolfi_2]

It really doesn't matter when your spouse doesn't want anymore children.

He already had 2 kids, remember?


he had always two kid´s ?

[JD1974]

It really doesn't matter when your spouse doesn't want anymore children.

He already had 2 kids, remember?

Yes! I was talking about cost and stuff though. Plus I was saying that she still could have children, but that is a really interesting theory about needing some money, any ins policies??

That fax bugged me so much I emailed Woods....

[Perplexed1]

Cervical cancer is often caused by promisuity:sad:

[JD1974]

The boy's first account was the most logical thing to come out of this case. Who knows what he was doing before he went home. He was eight. He could have been off digging a hole in a vacant lot for all anyone knows. A perfectly legitimate pastime for an eight year old.


Who knows because NO ONE was home watching him, that's for sure! Well I may have to amend that if new information comes to light LOL

[JusticeDawg©]

Yes! I was talking about cost and stuff though. Plus I was saying that she still could have children, but that is a really interesting theory about needing some money, any ins policies??

That fax bugged me so much I emailed Woods....

LOL, he's seen that blog longgggg ago. We found that towards the end of November.

Defense checked on Insurance. Gag....

[JD1974]

I am wondering if Tiffany was obviously undone at work that day and felt she needed to say something about it to throw off suspicion? Even if she didn't do it, perhaps she wanted to do that. I know it would be wierd to be complaining about my husband to coworkers all day and then find out he was killed that same evening.

Just a thought.


Yes! That's what I wrote in my e-mail. It is blatant that she was trying to throw off the co-workers because in a REAL invesigation they would all be asked about her!

[JD1974]

Cervical cancer is often caused by promisuity:sad:



Yeah my daughters get those shots. Not all is though!

[JD1974]

Good morning. I believe the mother's name is Chavez. Like Dawg said the identity of this Lisa Bonilla is back in the threads somewhere. IIRC, it was a work related problem.



Probably in the few days that I missed posting on here. I skipped almost a whole thread because a new one was made. I should go back and read it.

[JusticeDawg©]

Cervical cancer is often caused by promisuity:sad:

I can tell you that was the one of the first things the investigator for the defense looked for...a boyfriend.

[JD1974]

LOL, he's seen that blog longgggg ago. We found that towards the end of November.

Defense checked on Insurance. Gag....



I hate those! Oh I didn't tell him about the fax, I know he has seen it, just wondering if his thoughts are along the same line as mine...

[JusticeDawg©]

If he didn't want any more kids then that would certainly be grounds for an annulment in the Catholic Church. I am Catholic and when you go through pre-Cana counseling (required) you must establish that you are both willing to accept children into the marriage. It is also part of your vows. It is an EXTREMELY IMPORTANT tennet of the Catholic faith and the Sacrament of Matriomony. The Catholic Church is against birth control and abortion. They believe that being fruitful and multiplying is a basic part of the Sacrament.

I don't understand how a man making those vows just 3 months before could say he didn't want more children. What is the point of getting married in the Catholic Church then?

I know it seems like a small thing to some people, but it is a HUGE thing in a marriage. If one of the people wants kids and the other does not, there is going to be trouble! If this is seriously true in this case that is a HUGE RED FLAG!
:no:

Hey, born, raised and schooled Roman Catholic here. I know.

[JD1974]

the boy's first account seems more believable to me. when his story changed he was having difficulty trying to tell the officers what he thought they wanted to hear. then it eventually seemed like he would say whatever would keep him from going to juvie. he was traumatized for pete's sake. how could he keep anything straight. he initially thought they were questioning him to find out who did this. he seemed like he wanted to help them find out who did this. i think he could sense they weren't being truthful to him. especially when they said someone saw him do it, or somebody said they called him when no one did. children sense things better than most adults do.

end of rant



I am telling you seriously as soon as I heard this kid saying "I think" I knew he was trying to please the interroRgators. My son is notorious for that. I even tried an experiment on him last night, poor kid, I hid the memory card for the PS2 and asked him if he had taken it. First words were "I THINK" I seen it in my bedroom mom. It was never there, I hid it behind the tv. He actually went into his room and started looking! Mind you he is 4 but everytime he makes something up when he hasn't really done it he says he thinks.

[tif]

My problem is WHY put all of that extra information there? I don't care if it was a fax. Why put that she knew something bad was going to happen that day, she felt it and should of called VR and apologized, why would you broadcast that to co-workers? Unless they knew about the fight....Also she talks about the boy had the same feeling because he walked around before going home...just really strange!

After a tragedy it's common for people to claim that they "just knew" something bad was going to happen. I've been to enough funerals to know. People vent. We live in a day of way to much information. I'm always amazed at the personal information that practical strangers will tell me. I blame Dr. Phil and Oprah.

Quite a few threads back we had a discussion regarding the boy and how we shouldn't judge the way another grieves. The same sentiments should apply here.

If something significant came to light, such as the people in the parking lot saying they talked to Tiffany at 3:45 instead of 4:45, that would be suspicious. The fax isn't suspicious.

[JD1974]

After a tragedy it's common for people to claim that they "just knew" something bad was going to happen. I've been to enough funerals to know. People vent. We live in a day of way to much information. I'm always amazed at the personal information that practical strangers will tell me. I blame Dr. Phil and Oprah.

Quite a few threads back we had a discussion regarding the boy and how we shouldn't judge the way another grieves. The same sentiments should apply here.

If something significant came to light, such as the people in the parking lot saying they talked to Tiffany at 3:45 instead of 4:45, that would be suspicious. The fax isn't suspicious.



I don't say much about grieving honestly. My uncle killed himself, I knew my aunt loved him deeply and did nothing to cause it, yet she didn't even bring a tear out and we were at her house for 4 days. His funeral was a party at his favorite bar, we all just partied pretty much. That in no way meant we didn't care about him!

[wolfi_2]

…and if Tiffany like Tim more than it is allowed, but he doesn’t like Tiffany very much? or Tim tried it, but take a step back? because of his friend VR….

[tif]

I don't say much about grieving honestly. My uncle killed himself, I knew my aunt loved him deeply and did nothing to cause it, yet she didn't even bring a tear out and we were at her house for 4 days. His funeral was a party at his favorite bar, we all just partied pretty much. That in no way meant we didn't care about him!

I know what you mean. I'm pretty stoic at funerals. Some people seem to take offense at that.

[Hawk]

Mrs. Romero's alibi is too strong. In a small town like this it didn't take long for LE to determine her location during the murder time-frame.

Even without her strong alibi she would have chosen the riskiest part of the day to do the killings, daylight on a weekday at quitting time when traffic activity is at it's height (even in a small town).
No one saw her jeep, a familiar sight to neighbors. No one saw her. She wasn't there.

The hateful manner in which this men were repeatedly shot, the last ones for no apparent reason, took a special kind of dark-side demeanor. Someone who wasn't in a hurry. As if they enjoyed it.

[JD1974]

You simply cannot gleen ANYTHING from the way a person behaves during a grieving time. That said, there are appropriate ways for an adult to behave that any variation from might raise an eyebrow or two. To me, in this case, the pics on the Axton blog, changing her name back, removing her wedding ring, sending a fax the day after the murders....might just mean something....(of course, could mean nothing as well.)

It is however, something to at least consider, IMO.


I agree. If she took her maiden name and already stopped wearing her wedding ring that is strange. That has nothing to do with demeanor.

[wolfi_2]

Mrs. Romero's alibi is too strong. In a small town like this it didn't take long for LE to determine her location during the murder time-frame.

Even without her strong alibi she would have chosen the riskiest part of the day to do the killings, daylight on a weekday at quitting time when traffic activity is at it's height (even in a small town).
No one saw her jeep, a familiar sight to neighbors. No one saw her. She wasn't there.

The hateful manner in which this men were repeatedly shot, the last ones for no apparent reason, took a special kind of dark-side demeanor. Someone who wasn't in a hurry. As if they enjoyed it.

That would say, in case the boy did it, something very bad must been happened between the boy and Tim?

[JusticeDawg©]

Mrs. Romero's alibi is too strong. In a small town like this it didn't take long for LE to determine her location during the murder time-frame.

Even without her strong alibi she would have chosen the riskiest part of the day to do the killings, daylight on a weekday at quitting time when traffic activity is at it's height (even in a small town).
No one saw her jeep, a familiar sight to neighbors. No one saw her. She wasn't there.

The hateful manner in which this men were repeatedly shot, the last ones for no apparent reason, took a special kind of dark-side demeanor. Someone who wasn't in a hurry. As if they enjoyed it.

LOL, you do your investigation, I'll do mine.

[JD1974]

Mrs. Romero's alibi is too strong. In a small town like this it didn't take long for LE to determine her location during the murder time-frame.

Even without her strong alibi she would have chosen the riskiest part of the day to do the killings, daylight on a weekday at quitting time when traffic activity is at it's height (even in a small town).
No one saw her jeep, a familiar sight to neighbors. No one saw her. She wasn't there.

The hateful manner in which this men were repeatedly shot, the last ones for no apparent reason, took a special kind of dark-side demeanor. Someone who wasn't in a hurry. As if they enjoyed it.



I have to wonder if anyone else seen the white car? The person that did this had to be in a hurry because the timeline is really short.

[Perplexed1]

I agree. If she took her maiden name and already stopped wearing her wedding ring that is strange. That has nothing to do with demeanor.

It just seems she moved a little FAST with the clean up and out with old , in with the new.:sleep:

[JusticeDawg©]

That would say, in case the boy did it, something very bad must been happened between the boy and Tim?

Tim was a lot of things...but he liked his women, NOT little boys.

[ExPI]

In answer to Wolfi's question:
Are there maybe some friendship or relationship with members of the police department ?

Officer Debbie Neckle and Tiffany were friends. DN antd Tiffany jogged together and DN would stop at Tiffany's house and talk but not when Vince was there. DN says she was invited and would have gone to the wedding but she was out of town that weekend.
Why did DN think that the call was for a drug overdose when she responded to the call? She knew these people she was a close neighbor.

[Perplexed1]

There is such thing as 'hitman'. Maybe he drives and old white car with no rims.:blink:

[Hawk]

That would say, in case the boy did it, something very bad must been happened between the boy and Tim?

Don't know anything about that. I'm just looking at it in a practical way.
These killing would have been a nasty thing to watch with quivering bodies and perhaps a lot of moans and cries. It takes some one with a special temperament to watch that and not breakdown.

[wolfi_2]

Tim was a lot of things...but he liked his women, NOT little boys.

That´s is just to make sure. I don´t believe Tim was that kind of ******* man, so there was no reason for the boy to shoot Tim in such an manner.

[Hawk]

There is such thing as 'hitman'. Maybe he drives and old white car with no rims.:blink:

A 'hitman' would have killed them along the road.

[JusticeDawg©]

Does anyone know if Tiffany actually did the cleaning herself or did she perhaps have a family member or friend come and do the cleaning? Or maybe she hired someone?

I am just curious, because I cannot imagine her going into that house to clean up THAT! If I were to ever return, I'd make sure I had someone clean out anything and everything possible.

I'm just curious, because to me, it makes a big difference who actually did the cleaning.

As far as staying in the house, it would give me nightmares.
It was just reported (Dec) that she is living there and you can still see blood on the porch (they showed it on TV)

Maybe she didn't clean anything.
Usually the people taking the bodies clean that stuff up. In St Johns, who knows.

[JusticeDawg©]

That´s is just to make sure. I don´t believe Tim was that kind of ******* man, so there was no reason for the boy to shoot Tim in such an manner.

Exactly.

:wink:

[JD1974]

In answer to Wolfi's question:
Are there maybe some friendship or relationship with members of the police department ?

Officer Debbie Neckle and Tiffany were friends. DN antd Tiffany jogged together and DN would stop at Tiffany's house and talk but not when Vince was there. DN says she was invited and would have gone to the wedding but she was out of town that weekend.
Why did DN think that the call was for a drug overdose when she responded to the call? She knew these people she was a close neighbor.


This small town stuff is really annoying, only because everyone knows everyone. So throw the kid under the bus? I just do not even know what to think about this case, it seems like it is a freaking movie...Lifetime movie of the week!

[Perplexed1]

A 'hitman' would have killed them along the road.

Even if he was trying to pin it on someone?:confused:

[JD1974]

There is such thing as 'hitman'. Maybe he drives and old white car with no rims.:blink:

LOL cheap hitman!

[JusticeDawg©]

This small town stuff is really annoying, only because everyone knows everyone. So throw the kid under the bus? I just do not even know what to think about this case, it seems like it is a freaking movie...Lifetime movie of the week!

More like Deliverance.

[Perplexed1]

Exactly.

:wink:

Little boy said, "Why would I soot Tim?"

[JD1974]

More like Deliverance.


OMG haha that movie gave me nightmares!

[JusticeDawg©]

Even if he was trying to pin it on someone?:confused:

A Hitman wouldn't care to pin it on anyone.
He wouldn't drive a junker either.

[JusticeDawg©]

OMG haha that movie gave me nightmares!

This case gives me nightmares.

[JD1974]

Little boy said, "Why would I soot Tim?"



Kind of like why would you even ask me that...that statement really sticks out in that interroRgation video.

[Hawk]

Even if he was trying to pin it on someone?:confused:

'Hitmen' don't need to pin it on someone else. They stick and move then are long gone. Who in their right mind would take the risk of going to a man's home kill him indoors with a single shot .22, kill the friend outdoors then drive through a sub-division to escape?

How could this be possible?

[Hawk]

Tim was a lot of things...but he liked his women, NOT little boys.

How do you know that?

[Perplexed1]

A Hitman wouldn't care to pin it on anyone.
He wouldn't drive a junker either.

well it is Mayberry.........:rolleyes:

[Hawk]

Seasoned police officers often times need counseling after shooting even the worst offenders.

Exactly!
And Mrs. Romero certainly isn't a seasoned officer.

[bkwits]

That would say, in case the boy did it, something very bad must been happened between the boy and Tim?

Excellent point. :thumbup:

[Hawk]

More like Deliverance.


Paddle faster, I hear banjo music!!

[tif]

Don't know anything about that. I'm just looking at it in a practical way.
These killing would have been a nasty thing to watch with quivering bodies and perhaps a lot of moans and cries. It takes some one with a special temperament to watch that and not breakdown.

Hawk, are you swaying back to the side of goodness and light?:smile:

[Perplexed1]

Hawk, are you swaying back to the side of goodness and light?:smile:

Little boy sounded awfully sweet, not evil.

[tif]

well it is Mayberry.........:rolleyes:

I don't think Andy would have let this happen. He kept a tight leash on Barney.:tongueside:

[JusticeDawg©]

How do you know that?

Because I know.

[Hawk]

Hawk, are you swaying back to the side of goodness and light?:smile:

I'm only saying that Mrs. Romero didn't do this thing. Not directly anyway.
If drug dealers or a jealous boyfriend was after Mr. Romans they would have done it when he was leaving the bar at 2:00 am. They wouldn't have chanced going to Mr. Romero's house in broad daylight, a known hunter with firearms.

[Perplexed1]

Because I know.

Just listened to those interviews again yesterday. CR had no animosity in his voice as he talked about Tim, where his room was, etc.

[muska]

A Hitman wouldn't care to pin it on anyone.
He wouldn't drive a junker either.

A hitman seems more likely than an eight year old! Could also be someone, like a friend or boyfriend, sent to take care of things...someone without the experience of a real hitman.

[Hawk]

Because I know.

That isn't possible.

[Perplexed1]

I'm only saying that Mrs. Romero didn't do this thing. Not directly anyway.
If drug dealers or a jealous boyfriend was after Mr. Romans they would have done it when he was leaving the bar at 2:00 am. They wouldn't have chanced going to Mr. Romero's house in broad daylight, a known hunter with firearms.

Crazier things have happened.

[tif]

I agree. If she took her maiden name and already stopped wearing her wedding ring that is strange. That has nothing to do with demeanor.

As far as I know the only indication she did this was from one reader comment on an online newspaper site. (Can't remember which one) The reader could be in Bucharest for all we know. Please correct me if there was another source.

[JusticeDawg©]

Exactly!
And Mrs. Romero certainly isn't a seasoned officer.

No she has been said to be, smart, Self absorbed, devious and selfish.
By friends. :biggrin:

[Hawk]

Crazier things have happened.

Can you give an example?

[Hawk]

No she has been said to be, smart, Self absorbed, devious and selfish.
By friends. :biggrin:

That's along way from being a stone cold killer.

[muska]

Little boy said, "Why would I soot Tim?"

And also the way he asked, "Shoot my dad?" like it was hard to even say.

[PensiveOne]

'Hitmen' don't need to pin it on someone else. They stick and move then are long gone. Who in their right mind would take the risk of going to a man's home kill him indoors with a single shot .22, kill the friend outdoors then drive through a sub-division to escape?

How could this be possible?

Well, Hawk you are talking about experienced hitmen. What about the teacher who was having sex with the teenager and talked him into killing her husband?

I was called for jury duty a few years ago. I didn't get picked because they asked me if I believed in the death penalty and I said yes, in some instances I could push the button myself:) Anyway, this woman had these two druggies kill her husband. Guess what she paid them. $1,000 dollars each. They had NO car and kidnapped him in his car. After they had killed him they walked home. It was a brutal murder. He was shot and had his throat slit. Blood everywhere, they stopped at a creek to clean off.

[Perplexed1]

A hitman seems more likely than an eight year old! Could also be someone, like a friend or boyfriend, sent to take care of things...someone without the experience of a real hitman.

And Tiffany was out of the way---told little one she wouldn't be home. He went hunting with his chipmunk, he wasn't supposed to have. HAD to say it was UPSTAIRS in interview!

[JusticeDawg©]

That isn't possible.

Maybe not for you.

[muska]

Crazier things have happened.

Anger, jealousy, passion...they make a lot of unbelievable things possible.

[JD1974]

As far as I know the only indication she did this was from one reader comment on an online newspaper site. (Can't remember which one) The reader could be in Bucharest for all we know. Please correct me if there was another source.


That's why I said if...because we really do not know if it is true or not.

[Hawk]

Well, Hawk you are talking about experienced hitmen. What about the teacher who was having sex with the teenager and talked him into killing her husband?

I was called for jury duty a few years ago. I didn't get picked because they asked me if I believed in the death penalty and I said yes, in some instances I could push the button myself:) Anyway, this woman had these two druggies kill her husband. Guess what she paid them. $1,000 dollars each. They had NO car and kidnapped him in his car. After they had killed him they walked home. It was a brutal murder. He was shot and had his throat slit. Blood everywhere, they stopped at a creek to clean off.

Good example!

But in this case the hitman (junkie, flunky, or boyfriend) would have had to of placed the evidence in the exact locations to match the childs statements, a day before the boy talked. That would really be weird.

[Perplexed1]

That's along way from being a stone cold killer.

No one would have thought O.J. could have done it , either, but there was too much over kill, and poor Goldman just came along and got in the way.

[tif]

I'm only saying that Mrs. Romero didn't do this thing. Not directly anyway.
If drug dealers or a jealous boyfriend was after Mr. Romans they would have done it when he was leaving the bar at 2:00 am. They wouldn't have chanced going to Mr. Romero's house in broad daylight, a known hunter with firearms.

I think it's a stretch to assume that the killer(s) were intelligent. One of several sites with hilarious stories: http://www.dumbcriminals.com/

[bookie]

http://bethanygentry.blogspot.com/2008/11/tragic.html

It depends on when Tiffany sent the fax. If she sent it the morning of the 6th he wasn't charged yet. He wasn't charged until around, what 11:45am on the 6th.




I wonder what Tiffany felt she needed to apologize about?

[Hawk]

No one would have thought O.J. could have done it , either, but there was too much over kill, and poor Goldman just came along and got in the way.

Millions of people thought OJ did it.

[JD1974]

Can you give an example?


Examples of strange murders?

[PensiveOne]

Good example!

But in this case the hitman (junkie, flunky, or boyfriend) would have had to of placed the evidence in the exact locations to match the childs statements, a day before the boy talked. That would really be weird.

Why? They made the boy fit the scenario they had in mind, not vice versa. Why couldn't somebody else have commited the murders? I just don't get what you are saying.

[Hawk]

I think it's a stretch to assume that the killer(s) were intelligent. One of several sites with hilarious stories: http://www.dumbcriminals.com/

Mr. Romans was sitting in his truck with a .45 ACP pistol in his console. At the first sign of danger he would have reached over and armed himself. Now please explain how gunmen from a car shot him eight times with a .22. And how they killed Mr. Romero inside the house and came outside in full view of Mr. Romans. Had these men seen a car in the driveway when they pulled up wouldn't they have been a mite curious as to who the car belonged to.
None of the neighbors saw a white car.

[Hawk]

That is how we know it was an "inside job". :tonguewag:

Inside job indeed.

[Perplexed1]

I think it's a stretch to assume that the killer(s) were intelligent. One of several sites with hilarious stories: http://www.dumbcriminals.com/

Lot's of folks in St. John's that needed money.:closedeyes:

[JusticeDawg©]

What makes everyone think Tiffany didn't know how to use a gun?

[Perplexed1]

Lot's of folks in St. John's that needed money.:closedeyes:

Christmas coming on, drug bill overdue, etc.

[bkwits]

Can you give an example?

The JonBenet Ramsey murder. Unsolved.

The Jackie Dowalibly kidnap and murder.

The Jeanine Nicarico kidnap, rape and murder.

The list is endless where strangers or persons unknown have come into a house and killed or abducted people. Those are just a few that come immediately to mind. There are thounsands of unfatginabke violent crimes.

[tif]

Millions of people thought OJ did it.

But that was after the evidence started coming to light. Before that OJ was regarded as a very sweet guy, as far as I remember. And no, I'm not switching to the anti-Tiffany camp, but my point is that it could be anybody.

[JD1974]

Mr. Romans was sitting in his truck with a .45 ACP pistol in his console. At the first sign of danger he would have reached over and armed himself. Now please explain how gunmen from a car shot him eight times with a .22. And how they killed Mr. Romero inside the house and came outside in full view of Mr. Romans. Had these men seen a car in the driveway when they pulled up wouldn't they have been a mite curious as to who the car belonged to.
None of the neighbors saw a white car.


The same can be said about the kid doing it. How did Tim not hear the shots when he was so close to where they were taking place? Maybe he didn't think the whoever was in the car was a danger until the bullets started flying....it is just strange that he ran towards where the shots were coming from instead of away, he had a gun in his truck, why would he go to the house where the shots were coming from instead of grabbing his gun?

[Hawk]

The JonBenet Ramsey murder. Unsolved.

The Jackie Dowalibly kidnap and murder.

The Jeanine Nicarico kidnap, rape and murder.

The list is endless where strangers or persons unknown have come into a house and killed or abducted people. Those are just a few that come immediately to mind. There are thounsands of unfatginabke violent crimes.

This case involves two strong, healthy construction workers who were familiar with, and owned firearms. These men wouldn't have been as easy to deal with as the victims in those cases.

[suzanne]

That would say, in case the boy did it, something very bad must been happened between the boy and Tim?

I agree and with his father.

[JD1974]

The JonBenet Ramsey murder. Unsolved.

The Jackie Dowalibly kidnap and murder.




I have a good friend who was a cousin of theirs, he said the family always thought they had done it. I am honestly not sure if he was telling the truth or not, but it came out when I was talking about posting here, he said have you ever heard about...

[PensiveOne]

the hitman would have placed the evidence in the locations during the murders, i.e. shell casings on the stairs, in the doorway, shotgun on the cage, no blood on the kids shoes,

shell casings are where they are. I don't see your point.

shotgun on the cage = that has not been proved the murder weapon and the boy could have put it there before he ran away in fear. OR it could have been there for days.

No blood on his shoes = we don't know that yet, and even if that is true that doesn't prove anything.

[JD1974]

This case involves two strong, healthy construction workers who were familiar with, and owned firearms. These men wouldn't have been as easy to deal with as the victims in those cases.


Right, but it only takes an 8 year old to take them both out.

[Hawk]

That is on the assumption that Tanya actually heard the boy on the phone. who says the shooting started while Tim was in the truck. He could have been walking back to the house when he was first shot.

That's right. So why didn't he run back (probably six feet from the first blood drop on the ground) to his truck and retrieve his pistol?

Was it because he knew the shooter and thought he could overpower the shooter?

Or did the first shot put him in shock and he progressed toward the door unwittingly?

[JD1974]

Which case? Ramsey or Dowaliby?



Dowaliby...I hate the message is too short error!

[suzanne]

A 'hitman' would have killed them along the road.

A hitman probably would have used weapons and things from the victims house to point away from him or herself.

[PensiveOne]

This case involves two strong, healthy construction workers who were familiar with, and owned firearms. These men wouldn't have been as easy to deal with as the victims in those cases.

ITA with that statement.

[muska]

Good example!

But in this case the hitman (junkie, flunky, or boyfriend) would have had to of placed the evidence in the exact locations to match the childs statements, a day before the boy talked. That would really be weird.

What statements? Shot each man twice, Rifle in the closet

The only statement that Might seem to match is - shot TR first then VR, but that's like a True/False question....50% chance of getting it right! I think he was just guessing!

Not Yelling! :biggrin:

[JusticeDawg©]

The same can be said about the kid doing it. How did Tim not hear the shots when he was so close to where they were taking place? Maybe he didn't think the whoever was in the car was a danger until the bullets started flying....it is just strange that he ran towards where the shots were coming from instead of away, he had a gun in his truck, why would he go to the house where the shots were coming from instead of grabbing his gun?

Who ever set in stone that VR was shot first?

[JD1974]

Who ever set in stone that VR was shot first?

No one actually lol What if TR was shot and VR was going up the stairs to get his gun because he heard the shots...

[Hawk]

Right, but it only takes an 8 year old to take them both out.

Whoever did this has to be among the top luckiest murderers in recorded history. This thing could not have been planned out the way it happened.
If both Romero and Romans had entered the house at the same time one, or both, would probably be alive today.
If the shooter hadn't been at the top of the stairs and had Romero boxed in, he might well have been able to protect himself.
Had Mrs. Romero arrived home 10 minutes earlier things would have different. On and on..........

[suzanne]

There is such thing as 'hitman'. Maybe he drives and old white car with no rims.:blink:


Just curious.Did any one find out what grandpas car looked like with a link to it?Did grandpa's car have the no rims?

[tif]

Hawk, are the locations of the shell casings the evidence you are talking about? If so, I still don't get how you can rely on the casings staying where they were ejected. We know the boy was running around inside the house, along with the real killer if the boy didn't do it and possibly the dog. Don't forget the careless cops. Any of these people could have kicked the casings around.

The white car could have been parked around the block while the killer was in the house.

[bkwits]

The JonBenet Ramsey murder. Unsolved.

The Jackie Dowalibly kidnap and murder.

The Jeanine Nicarico kidnap, rape and murder.

The list is endless where strangers or persons unknown have come into a house and killed or abducted people. Those are just a few that come immediately to mind. There are thounsands of unfatginabke violent crimes.

I meant to say -- thousands of unfathomable crimes.

Too late to edit.

[JD1974]

Very interesting Justice, that really would explain a lot of things.

[JusticeDawg©]

Whoever did this has to be among the top luckiest murderers in recorded history. This thing could not have been planned out the way it happened.
If both Romero and Romans had entered the house at the same time one, or both, would probably be alive today.
If the shooter hadn't been at the top of the stairs and had Romero boxed in, he might well have been able to protect himself.
Had Mrs. Romero arrived home 10 minutes earlier things would have different. On and on..........


And VR was shot in the back while running up the steps.

TR was already dead.

[PensiveOne]

No one actually lol What if TR was shot and VR was going up the stairs to get his gun because he heard the shots...

I have wondered that myself! That would explain why he still had is work hat and goggles on. He was running!

[Perplexed1]

But that was after the evidence started coming to light. Before that OJ was regarded as a very sweet guy, as far as I remember. And no, I'm not switching to the anti-Tiffany camp, but my point is that it could be anybody.

Obviously 'millions' thought he didn't do it. He walked.

[bkwits]

This case involves two strong, healthy construction workers who were familiar with, and owned firearms. These men wouldn't have been as easy to deal with as the victims in those cases.

So, it was easy for an 8 year old to deal with them? You are a very smart man Hawk, but sometimes I can't follow your reasoning. :confused::confused::confused:

[JusticeDawg©]

I have wondered that myself! That would explain why he still had is work hat and goggles on. He was running!

I see everyones lightbulbs are going on. :thumbsup:

[suzanne]

A Hitman wouldn't care to pin it on anyone.
He wouldn't drive a junker either.

Hit men are organized and do a clean job.I keep remembering the movie Pulp Fiction and how cool they thought the guy was hosing them off and cleaning the car.LOL:laugh:

[Details]

Good example!

But in this case the hitman (junkie, flunky, or boyfriend) would have had to of placed the evidence in the exact locations to match the childs statements, a day before the boy talked. That would really be weird.Exact? I think you're forgetting 3 things.

First - the child saw the crime scene. No doubt about that - he found the bodies.

Second - the child's statements do not match the crime scene - can you give me any example where his description is an exact match - I've yet to see anything at all that is even a good match? It's wrong on number of gunshots, placement of the gun, all kinds of stuff.

Third - the child is working with what the police told him - his statements match what police asked him to say.


A nonprofessional hitman seems likely to me too. A boyfriend, junkie, drifter, etc. Most people don't have access to mob ties and professional hitmen - they find someone sleazy in their area, and figure they might do it. The house is a good spot - men are off guard, you know when they're supposed to be home - much easier than on the road where the intended victims have a 2 ton weapon at their disposal.

[Hawk]

And VR was shot in the back while running up the steps.

TR was already dead.

He was shot in the back from upstairs after he as already down.

[JusticeDawg©]

six feet from the blood drop to his truck? humm. Maybe he thought he could get in the house before he was shot again? It's further to the truck at that point than to get in the house. The shooter may have been outside the house by that time, or there were two shooters? He may have been in shock. Shot again and fell and crawled to the door where he couldn't go any further.

Was the gun in his truck even loaded?

[wolfi_2]

Then there is the underwear…, why take they the underwear, Ok nobody can say for 100% sure, that someone haven't "special" interests in this case somebody must know that! -But I still think, why didn´t they take no other clothes from other family members for GSR test?, just to make sure?
This thread is turning me around today!

[tif]

Who ever set in stone that VR was shot first?

The timeline from Tim's call with Tanya to the 911 call would be tight even for an adult if Vincent were not already dead. If there was one killer, the second victim would have to be unaware of the first shooting. It's more likely that the guy outside would be the one unaware. If there were two killers, all bets are off.

[Hawk]

Was the gun in his truck even loaded?

It wasn't further to the truck than the front door according to the first blood drop. The truck was much closer and the passengers door was open.

[Details]

Whoever did this has to be among the top luckiest murderers in recorded history. This thing could not have been planned out the way it happened.
If both Romero and Romans had entered the house at the same time one, or both, would probably be alive today.
If the shooter hadn't been at the top of the stairs and had Romero boxed in, he might well have been able to protect himself.
Had Mrs. Romero arrived home 10 minutes earlier things would have different. On and on..........Same could be said for so many other killers. But it's not that much luck - when you have a gun, and they don't, and they aren't expecting you - it's not that hard to kill someone. If they both entered together - put a round in each, then finish the job. If they enter separately, take the first first. If Mrs Romero gets home, she's dead too. It's not all that difficult.

You look at any murder case, and you find the murderer having some luck - how was Scott Peterson not observed moving the body around? How was OJ so lucky that no one heard anything or saw anything when he was out in the open? How did David Westerfield get that little girl, and keep her so well hidden?

[Details]

shell casings are where they are. I don't see your point.

shotgun on the cage = that has not been proved the murder weapon and the boy could have put it there before he ran away in fear. OR it could have been there for days.

No blood on his shoes = we don't know that yet, and even if that is true that doesn't prove anything.Shotgun on the cage is one of the many details that is NOT a match to the confession - not to any version of it.

[suzanne]

That's along way from being a stone cold killer.

True.But I don't know.They are saying Casey Anthony is like this (smart, Self absorbed, devious and selfish.)

[Details]

Hawk - you've said repeatedly his confession matched the details. Can you say in what way? I've yet to see anything where his confession matched any of the details of the crime, let alone in any unique way that isn't explained by the fact he did see the crime scene or police prompting.

There's nothing. Lots of details that don't match, number of shots and location of the gun being the top items - but nothing that does match.

[bkwits]

This case involves two strong, healthy construction workers who were familiar with, and owned firearms. These men wouldn't have been as easy to deal with as the victims in those cases.

In two of those cases, Ramsey and Dowaliby, the whole family was home at the time. In the Nicarico case, Dugan (the rapist/murderer) didn't expect anyone to be home.

My point was that these cases are stranger and more complicated than this case. It could have been a random robbery. I believe that the front door was left unlocked.

IMO

[JD1974]

Murderers always have a bit of luck on their side or else they wouldn't be murderers. They would of been stopped before achieving their goal.

[tif]

So, it was easy for an 8 year old to deal with them? You are a very smart man Hawk, but sometimes I can't follow your reasoning.

Sometimes I think Hawk just enjoys screwing with us.:tongueside:

[Hawk]

Same could be said for so many other killers. But it's not that much luck - when you have a gun, and they don't, and they aren't expecting you - it's not that hard to kill someone. If they both entered together - put a round in each, then finish the job. If they enter separately, take the first first. If Mrs Romero gets home, she's dead too. It's not all that difficult.

You look at any murder case, and you find the murderer having some luck - how was Scott Peterson not observed moving the body around? How was OJ so lucky that no one heard anything or saw anything when he was out in the open? How did David Westerfield get that little girl, and keep her so well hidden?


He couldn't have put a round in each with his slow loading single shot rifle. They had about 4 seconds between shots to react.

By the way, someone did see OJ. She was a neighbor of Nicole's.

[JusticeDawg©]

Then there is the underwear…, why take they the underwear, Ok nobody can say for 100% sure, that someone haven't "special" interests in this case somebody must know that! -But I still think, why didn´t they take no other clothes from other family members for GSR test?, just to make sure?
This thread is turning me around today!

They were looking for sexual abuse (motive). If they found anything on the underware, we would have heard by now.

What do you mean turing you around?

[Jacobtk]

Same could be said for so many other killers. But it's not that much luck - when you have a gun, and they don't, and they aren't expecting you - it's not that hard to kill someone. If they both entered together - put a round in each, then finish the job. If they enter separately, take the first first. If Mrs Romero gets home, she's dead too. It's not all that difficult.

That is, of course, assuming Tiffany was not present in the house at the time of the shootings. Her exact whereabouts before the murders are still unclear and it is entirely possible that she committed the acts. This would coincide with the police's initial assumption that a family member had something to do with the murderers and silenced the boy.

[muska]

And VR was shot in the back while running up the steps.

TR was already dead.

That may be why his arms were under him...he reached out to break his fall.

[JusticeDawg©]

He was shot in the back from upstairs after he as already down.

The first shots that hit him were from BEHIND.

Better?

[wolfi_2]

They were looking for sexual abuse (motive). If they found anything on the underware, we would have heard by now.

What do you mean turing you around?

-so much new points of view!