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muska

01-13-2009, 08:03 AM

She got really bad remarks from the local press here in Phoenix when she was on GMA because she wasn't screaming from the roof tops that he was innocent, that he didn't do this, etc. There is one particular afternoon talk show that was particularly hard on her.

I know for me...I would probably be in jail because I would be making such a scene and probably slapping to two female LE's silly. I'm sure her age has a lot to do with how she is handling the situation. I have a daughter her age and I don't know that she would be as aggressive with the authorities as a "seasoned mom" like me. I also think lack of education might be a factor as well...although I would hope her attorney would guide her a bit.

Maybe she'd lose visitation rights if she said too much....that threat would keep most moms in her situation quiet. I wonder if there's someone else who could speak out for her.

I think she has her own attorney so that person must be advising her.

muska

01-13-2009, 08:06 AM

There was a press release on the court website I had not seen. There is not a lot in there, but here it is:
http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/Press%20Releases/JV2008065%20PRESS%20RELEASE%20JANUARY%206,%202009. pdf

It says that until a decision regarding the therapist is made "counseling services currently being provided will continue." These services are with the probation officer who can report back to the court.....seems very unfair. Why is this being allowed?

muska

01-13-2009, 08:14 AM

Yes, the PT Center. Someone has a link I am sure.

She didn't work that day.

Here is a co-worker's blog:
Vincent Romero was my co-worker's husband. They have been married 2 months.
And it was not authorities who found both men, it was their 8 year old son.
Please keep these families in your prayers.
I find it absolutely disgusting how people can just go up to a man and shoot them. What is wrong with this world.
Everything happened around 5 PM that day, but Tiffany sent us a fax out of no where, and she
said she just "felt" like it had to be said, and she said it hit her hard. There were feelings this whole day that she should just call her husband and apologize, and say I love you, thirty minutes before the incident happened. And the little boy had a feeling to not go home yet, so he walked around the block for a long time.

http://bethanygentry.blogspot.com/2008/11/tragic.html

Tiffany was on video at Wilburs at 4:20 that afternoon getting donuts and milk for work. She went back to Wilburs a short time later(approximately 4:45/Neckels) according to the receipt she produced, to get food for dinner. Don't you think she must have taken the donuts back to work? So she must have worked that day?

suzanne

01-13-2009, 08:50 AM

She got really bad remarks from the local press here in Phoenix when she was on GMA because she wasn't screaming from the roof tops that he was innocent, that he didn't do this, etc. There is one particular afternoon talk show that was particularly hard on her.

I know for me...I would probably be in jail because I would be making such a scene and probably slapping to two female LE's silly. I'm sure her age has a lot to do with how she is handling the situation. I have a daughter her age and I don't know that she would be as aggressive with the authorities as a "seasoned mom" like me. I also think lack of education might be a factor as well...although I would hope her attorney would guide her a bit.
She said what ever happened to innocent untill proven guilty.I really feel she didn't need to say any more than that.

muska

01-13-2009, 09:05 AM

Not if she just said the donuts and milk were for work and then went home. Why would she be buying donuts and milk for work at 4:20 in the afternoon and then 25 minutes later be buying food for dinner?

How could she send a fax at 5 to a co worker?

Maybe she was setting up an alibi. After the trip for donuts, she might have realized she wasn't there long enough and wasn't covered for the right time frame so she went back or got a receipt from an accomplice.
She said the donuts were for work....does that mean for that very afternoon or the next morning? If she said they were for that day, she must have taken them back or her co-workers would be suspicious of the alibi. If for the next morning, that should be a Huge Red Flag - why would she be in and out of the store twice in such a short time? She would have just gotten the donuts and her own things on the same trip.

I think the fax was later that evening....it sounds like it's after the shootings, don't you think? That's how I took it.

Kara

01-13-2009, 09:08 AM

She is a pretty big puppy. This was Nov 23rd.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_uW2A0qBmToo/SSrxw-fYCnI/AAAAAAAAAGI/dAzdPlsGGpI/s1600-h/DSC01567.JPG

The grieving widow looks simply devastated by her loss there, doesn't she.

wolfi_2

01-13-2009, 09:21 AM

The grieving widow looks simply devastated by her loss there, doesn't she.

It looks like they have some fun, -the boy haven't !

JD1974

01-13-2009, 09:57 AM

I don't think I've seen this here before....another interesting look at the boy's interview/"confession" and how he was manipulated by Avila/Neckels.

http://www.convolutedbrian.com/interrogation-of-the-child.html

From your link...Avila makes me so sick!

At the end Commander Matrese Avila showed her huge, cold, brass balls. She asked the child to hug each of the women before he was taken away. This was after they had lied to him, called him honey, touched him, and finally gave him the shaft. He did not respond to Avila’s effrontery.

wolfi_2

01-13-2009, 10:01 AM

From your link...Avila makes me so sick!

At the end Commander Matrese Avila showed her huge, cold, brass balls. She asked the child to hug each of the women before he was taken away. This was after they had lied to him, called him honey, touched him, and finally gave him the shaft. He did not respond to Avila’s effrontery.

just feelingless!:thumbdown:

JD1974

01-13-2009, 10:02 AM

Not if she just said the donuts and milk were for work and then went home. Why would she be buying donuts and milk for work at 4:20 in the afternoon and then 25 minutes later be buying food for dinner?

How could she send a fax at 5 to a co worker?

I would think the donuts and milk would of been for the next day of work, that is more like a breakfast food. Why didn't she get stuff for dinner while she was already there? I am wondering how she sent a fax also, maybe from the store! WAIT is that co-worker saying she sent the fax at 5pm the day of the shootings????

wolfi_2

01-13-2009, 10:08 AM

two link´s of the today´s action

http://www.cofad1.state.az.us/calendars/JANUARY/01-13-DEPTC.pdf
http://www.cofad1.state.az.us/casefiles/sa/sa080294.pdf

JD1974

01-13-2009, 10:15 AM

Thanks Wolfi!

JD1974

01-13-2009, 10:19 AM

sure reads like she did. and it says it came from nowhere.??? Sounds like something out of the ordinary to me.

More importantly at 5pm how did she know what had happened?

I wish we knew exactly when she faxed it and from where...if it was the store while she was shopping?

muska

01-13-2009, 10:22 AM

I would think the donuts and milk would of been for the next day of work, that is more like a breakfast food. Why didn't she get stuff for dinner while she was already there? I am wondering how she sent a fax also, maybe from the store! WAIT is that co-worker saying she sent the fax at 5pm the day of the shootings????

I wonder if St Johns police even asked whether the donuts were for that day or the next. They definitely should have...if they were for the next day that would be very suspicious! The only reason Tiffany might have had to go to the store twice would be if she had to get the donuts back to the office right away that afternoon.

The way Neckels asks Tiffany about the two trips was uncomfortable too. Neckels just gave Tiffany the info about what was bought and when, no asking, "so exactly what did you buy" or anything like that. Just bought her story. No pressuring her at all....I guess that would have been tougher than pressuring an eight year old.

I don't know about that fax...I have always thought it was later in the day. I can't imagine she sent it at 5PM....that just doesn't seem at all likely. Does anyone know where it can be found? Too much info to keep track of!!

JD1974

01-13-2009, 10:24 AM

Does anyone know where it can be found? Too much info to keep track of!!

I am looking!

muska

01-13-2009, 10:33 AM

tif

01-13-2009, 10:37 AM

I don't know about that fax...I have always thought it was later in the day. I can't imagine she sent it at 5PM....that just doesn't seem at all likely. Does anyone know where it can be found? Too much info to keep track of!!

The fax doesn't really bother me. She may have just not been able to discuss what happened on the phone. She wouldn't need a fax machine. You can send a fax from a computer. At least from a windows computer, I don't know about Apple.

muska

01-13-2009, 10:45 AM

Reciept is checkout time. So she was home by 4:50?

According to Neckels, the receipt showed approximately 4:45. She couldn't remember the exact time. On the way out, tiffany stopped and talked with Jean and Jason Kirk in the parking lot. Then she went to NAPA. She was only there a couple of minutes when she got the call from the boy at 5:12. Someone did confirm seeing her at NAPA.

Neckles said she had not confirmed all times. She said something like, "But the times were slightly, I , I didn't know. I was waiting to confirm them."

Kara

01-13-2009, 10:55 AM

The fax doesn't really bother me. She may have just not been able to discuss what happened on the phone. She wouldn't need a fax machine. You can send a fax from a computer. At least from a windows computer, I don't know about Apple.I think the fax is really strange. Who sends a fax for personal communication? If it was sent from a computer, why not just email?

muska

01-13-2009, 11:04 AM

Well I can tell you they are "off""

k?

Oh that doesn't surprise me! This is just the info I've seen here or there. There have been more mistakes, though, than not...

muska

01-13-2009, 11:08 AM

Both place are approx 2 mins from her house. No she did not return to work. She got off work early that day for a Drs. appointment. (someone said she took the whole day off) The gag is stopping me from finding out exactly which one is true. But one IS true.

Then going twice to Wilburs looks even more like she was setting up an alibi....even more so because she didn't offer to Neckels that she was at the store twice until she got caught about that by Neckels. She would have known that would look suspicious.

wolfi_2

01-13-2009, 11:18 AM

There are a few questions I have about Tiffany,
Did they collect any clothing from her for GSR test?
Did they take fingerprint´s ?
Are there maybe some friendship or relationship with members of the police department ?

muska

01-13-2009, 11:22 AM

Nothing adds up when it comes to Tiffany.

When did she have a fight with VR's co-worker because he wouldn't let VR off to go to the Dr's with her?

All I see is that Kevin Counts said that Tiffany had called him recently to ask it he knew about any problems between VR and TR and Larry Curley. VR had asked Counts for time off for the doctor's appt and he had approved it, but Curley was VRs foreman and Curley was unhappy about the time off request. He threatened to write VR up and both VR and TR threatened to quit. Doesn't say how it was resolved or what day VR wanted off...just recently.

muska

01-13-2009, 11:23 AM

1- No
2- No
3- Unknown

It's just ridiculous!

I definitely have to go and get some work done! I'll check back later!!

muska

01-13-2009, 11:24 AM

He didn't really want to go to the Dr's with her.

Interesting!!

wolfi_2

01-13-2009, 11:25 AM

1- No
2- No
3- Unknown

Well, that makes me wonder, normally in all that cases, mostly a women is involved, If I was a police investigator I would take some of this stuff also, just to make sure that she wasn´t involved in the shooting´s.

tif

01-13-2009, 11:25 AM

I think the fax is really strange. Who sends a fax for personal communication? If it was sent from a computer, why not just email?

People don't always check their email regularly. In a small office a new fax coming in would be more noticeable. I've used a fax myself in those circumstances. It doesn't take any more time.

Most of us have been up in arms, and rightly so, when LE and other posters here have labeled perfectly ordinary actions by the boy as suspect. We were quick to challenge those assertions for the boy's sake; I think we should give the same benefit of the doubt to other family members. I just can't get worked up about why someone would send a fax instead of an email.

JD1974

01-13-2009, 11:26 AM

I reread the blog. It is dated Nov. 7 at 5:44 AM. Perhaps Tiffany sent the fax on Nov. 6 to explain why she wasn't at work that day. Tiffany did not disclose that the boy was the suspect. Still odd to send afax rather than have someone phone work for her. I don't believe anyone would send a fax the morning after such a tragedy. Very very odd.

No kidding and the stuff about how she knew all day that she should of called and said she loved him because she felt something was wrong all day. Also she says the boy knew something too so he walked around after school that day...so freaking weird! Why do you add all of that to a fax of why you aren't coming into work? Especially the part about the boy!!!!

wolfi_2

01-13-2009, 11:32 AM

VR didn't even want anymore children.
Defense Investigating too, don't forget that. :wink:

I just like the defense team more and more:thumbup:

JD1974

01-13-2009, 11:32 AM

oh yeah, does anyone know who Lisa Bonilla is from the lawsuit she was defendent #2 and VR was defendent #1 in?

Could that be the mother of his daughter?

JD1974

01-13-2009, 11:36 AM

Also, I recall the report from the sheriff, I think, that when after the "interview" he brought the boy into his office for a while and they sat there and talked a bit. The boy stated he did NOT want Avila there AT ALL and did NOT wish to speak with her. Gee...I can't imagine why!!!

:rolleyes:

No kidding, he probably thought she was going to make him tell some more tales! I bet she could of gotten him to confess to assassinating JFK, we could of had it solved in 20 min with her on the job!

Hawk

01-13-2009, 11:39 AM

A Justice is out and a woman justice is sitting in. :thumbup:

She' Avila's sister.

JD1974

01-13-2009, 11:39 AM

I just can't get worked up about why someone would send a fax instead of an email.

My problem is WHY put all of that extra information there? I don't care if it was a fax. Why put that she knew something bad was going to happen that day, she felt it and should of called VR and apologized, why would you broadcast that to co-workers? Unless they knew about the fight....Also she talks about the boy had the same feeling because he walked around before going home...just really strange!

Perplexed1

01-13-2009, 11:40 AM

I SURE HOPE SOMEONE'S TAKING A CLOSER LOOK AT THAT TIFFANY!:glare:

JD1974

01-13-2009, 11:43 AM

What???? The judge is??? Shouldn't she excuse herself then? (or is the word recuse?)

Yes recuse. I hope Hawk is just kidding though lol If not...man that is one messed up county!

Perplexed1

01-13-2009, 11:43 AM

She went right back to living in the house. She left town one time for sure "to get away from all of the "Drama" as a family member puts it on this website. Wood checked these people out already: http://axtonromero.blogspot.com/2008/11/tiffany-romero-in-town.html

I don't know what he got out of it, except like we have been saying "grieving widow" was the subject of his email to me.

Greiving my A**

Perplexed1

01-13-2009, 11:48 AM

No kidding, he probably thought she was going to make him tell some more tales! I bet she could of gotten him to confess to assassinating JFK, we could of had it solved in 20 min with her on the job!

Avila the hun :sneaky:

Hawk

01-13-2009, 11:49 AM

Yes recuse. I hope Hawk is just kidding though lol If not...man that is one messed up county!

Kidding, yes. Sorry.
But in this case anything can happen.

wolfi_2

01-13-2009, 11:54 AM

:lol::lol:

sorry, but from my kind of view, not so funny

JD1974

01-13-2009, 11:57 AM

Oh that's sad. Having cervical cancer is. did she have good health insurance? my sister died of breast cancer and it's not something that you can pay on your own. even with insurance, it's expensive. this sounds awful but if she is behind the shootings, could this be a motive?

If she has cervical cancer she may be ok and still be able to have kids if they caught it in time. You can get a LEEP procedure done which takes the cancerous cells off the cervix and then cauterizes where the cells were removed. If like me after the LEEP is done it comes back, well then it's adoption time....I was done having kids when I found out I had it.

I am so sorry to hear about your sister..I skimmed the post and missed that. I feel like an a$$

wolfi_2

01-13-2009, 11:57 AM

opps, sorry.
I love ya wolfie!

:chicken:

accepted:loveeyes:

bkwits

01-13-2009, 11:58 AM

Could that be the mother of his daughter?

Good morning. I believe the mother's name is Chavez. Like Dawg said the identity of this Lisa Bonilla is back in the threads somewhere. IIRC, it was a work related problem.

tif

01-13-2009, 11:59 AM

I agree!

A whole new investigation needs to be done. I can think of a few people with motive in this case.

I believe the 8 yr. old and his first account of what happened. I'm glad he took his walk around the block a few times because otherwise....I can't even type it.:crying:

The boy's first account was the most logical thing to come out of this case. Who knows what he was doing before he went home. He was eight. He could have been off digging a hole in a vacant lot for all anyone knows. A perfectly legitimate pastime for an eight year old.

wolfi_2

01-13-2009, 12:02 PM

It really doesn't matter when your spouse doesn't want anymore children.

He already had 2 kids, remember?

he had always two kid´s ?

JD1974

01-13-2009, 12:02 PM

It really doesn't matter when your spouse doesn't want anymore children.

He already had 2 kids, remember?

Yes! I was talking about cost and stuff though. Plus I was saying that she still could have children, but that is a really interesting theory about needing some money, any ins policies??

That fax bugged me so much I emailed Woods....

Perplexed1

01-13-2009, 12:02 PM

Cervical cancer is often caused by promisuity:sad:

JD1974

01-13-2009, 12:03 PM

The boy's first account was the most logical thing to come out of this case. Who knows what he was doing before he went home. He was eight. He could have been off digging a hole in a vacant lot for all anyone knows. A perfectly legitimate pastime for an eight year old.

Who knows because NO ONE was home watching him, that's for sure! Well I may have to amend that if new information comes to light LOL

JD1974

01-13-2009, 12:05 PM

I am wondering if Tiffany was obviously undone at work that day and felt she needed to say something about it to throw off suspicion? Even if she didn't do it, perhaps she wanted to do that. I know it would be wierd to be complaining about my husband to coworkers all day and then find out he was killed that same evening.

Just a thought.

Yes! That's what I wrote in my e-mail. It is blatant that she was trying to throw off the co-workers because in a REAL invesigation they would all be asked about her!

JD1974

01-13-2009, 12:06 PM

Cervical cancer is often caused by promisuity:sad:

Yeah my daughters get those shots. Not all is though!

JD1974

01-13-2009, 12:08 PM

Good morning. I believe the mother's name is Chavez. Like Dawg said the identity of this Lisa Bonilla is back in the threads somewhere. IIRC, it was a work related problem.

Probably in the few days that I missed posting on here. I skipped almost a whole thread because a new one was made. I should go back and read it.

JD1974

01-13-2009, 12:09 PM

LOL, he's seen that blog longgggg ago. We found that towards the end of November.

Defense checked on Insurance. Gag....

I hate those! Oh I didn't tell him about the fax, I know he has seen it, just wondering if his thoughts are along the same line as mine...

JD1974

01-13-2009, 12:14 PM

the boy's first account seems more believable to me. when his story changed he was having difficulty trying to tell the officers what he thought they wanted to hear. then it eventually seemed like he would say whatever would keep him from going to juvie. he was traumatized for pete's sake. how could he keep anything straight. he initially thought they were questioning him to find out who did this. he seemed like he wanted to help them find out who did this. i think he could sense they weren't being truthful to him. especially when they said someone saw him do it, or somebody said they called him when no one did. children sense things better than most adults do.

end of rant

I am telling you seriously as soon as I heard this kid saying "I think" I knew he was trying to please the interroRgators. My son is notorious for that. I even tried an experiment on him last night, poor kid, I hid the memory card for the PS2 and asked him if he had taken it. First words were "I THINK" I seen it in my bedroom mom. It was never there, I hid it behind the tv. He actually went into his room and started looking! Mind you he is 4 but everytime he makes something up when he hasn't really done it he says he thinks.

tif

01-13-2009, 12:14 PM

My problem is WHY put all of that extra information there? I don't care if it was a fax. Why put that she knew something bad was going to happen that day, she felt it and should of called VR and apologized, why would you broadcast that to co-workers? Unless they knew about the fight....Also she talks about the boy had the same feeling because he walked around before going home...just really strange!

After a tragedy it's common for people to claim that they "just knew" something bad was going to happen. I've been to enough funerals to know. People vent. We live in a day of way to much information. I'm always amazed at the personal information that practical strangers will tell me. I blame Dr. Phil and Oprah.

Quite a few threads back we had a discussion regarding the boy and how we shouldn't judge the way another grieves. The same sentiments should apply here.

If something significant came to light, such as the people in the parking lot saying they talked to Tiffany at 3:45 instead of 4:45, that would be suspicious. The fax isn't suspicious.

JD1974

01-13-2009, 12:18 PM

After a tragedy it's common for people to claim that they "just knew" something bad was going to happen. I've been to enough funerals to know. People vent. We live in a day of way to much information. I'm always amazed at the personal information that practical strangers will tell me. I blame Dr. Phil and Oprah.

Quite a few threads back we had a discussion regarding the boy and how we shouldn't judge the way another grieves. The same sentiments should apply here.

If something significant came to light, such as the people in the parking lot saying they talked to Tiffany at 3:45 instead of 4:45, that would be suspicious. The fax isn't suspicious.

I don't say much about grieving honestly. My uncle killed himself, I knew my aunt loved him deeply and did nothing to cause it, yet she didn't even bring a tear out and we were at her house for 4 days. His funeral was a party at his favorite bar, we all just partied pretty much. That in no way meant we didn't care about him!

wolfi_2

01-13-2009, 12:29 PM

…and if Tiffany like Tim more than it is allowed, but he doesn’t like Tiffany very much? or Tim tried it, but take a step back? because of his friend VR….

tif

01-13-2009, 12:30 PM

I don't say much about grieving honestly. My uncle killed himself, I knew my aunt loved him deeply and did nothing to cause it, yet she didn't even bring a tear out and we were at her house for 4 days. His funeral was a party at his favorite bar, we all just partied pretty much. That in no way meant we didn't care about him!

I know what you mean. I'm pretty stoic at funerals. Some people seem to take offense at that.

Hawk

01-13-2009, 12:33 PM

Mrs. Romero's alibi is too strong. In a small town like this it didn't take long for LE to determine her location during the murder time-frame.

Even without her strong alibi she would have chosen the riskiest part of the day to do the killings, daylight on a weekday at quitting time when traffic activity is at it's height (even in a small town).
No one saw her jeep, a familiar sight to neighbors. No one saw her. She wasn't there.

The hateful manner in which this men were repeatedly shot, the last ones for no apparent reason, took a special kind of dark-side demeanor. Someone who wasn't in a hurry. As if they enjoyed it.

JD1974

01-13-2009, 12:37 PM

You simply cannot gleen ANYTHING from the way a person behaves during a grieving time. That said, there are appropriate ways for an adult to behave that any variation from might raise an eyebrow or two. To me, in this case, the pics on the Axton blog, changing her name back, removing her wedding ring, sending a fax the day after the murders....might just mean something....(of course, could mean nothing as well.)

It is however, something to at least consider, IMO.

I agree. If she took her maiden name and already stopped wearing her wedding ring that is strange. That has nothing to do with demeanor.

wolfi_2

01-13-2009, 12:38 PM

JD1974

01-13-2009, 12:39 PM

Perplexed1

01-13-2009, 12:40 PM

I agree. If she took her maiden name and already stopped wearing her wedding ring that is strange. That has nothing to do with demeanor.

It just seems she moved a little FAST with the clean up and out with old , in with the new.:sleep:

ExPI

01-13-2009, 12:41 PM

Perplexed1

01-13-2009, 12:41 PM

There is such thing as 'hitman'. Maybe he drives and old white car with no rims.:blink:

Hawk

01-13-2009, 12:44 PM

That would say, in case the boy did it, something very bad must been happened between the boy and Tim?

Don't know anything about that. I'm just looking at it in a practical way.
These killing would have been a nasty thing to watch with quivering bodies and perhaps a lot of moans and cries. It takes some one with a special temperament to watch that and not breakdown.

wolfi_2

01-13-2009, 12:45 PM

Tim was a lot of things...but he liked his women, NOT little boys.

That´s is just to make sure. I don´t believe Tim was that kind of ******* man, so there was no reason for the boy to shoot Tim in such an manner.

Hawk

01-13-2009, 12:46 PM

There is such thing as 'hitman'. Maybe he drives and old white car with no rims.:blink:

A 'hitman' would have killed them along the road.

JD1974

01-13-2009, 12:49 PM

In answer to Wolfi's question:
Are there maybe some friendship or relationship with members of the police department ?

Officer Debbie Neckle and Tiffany were friends. DN antd Tiffany jogged together and DN would stop at Tiffany's house and talk but not when Vince was there. DN says she was invited and would have gone to the wedding but she was out of town that weekend.
Why did DN think that the call was for a drug overdose when she responded to the call? She knew these people she was a close neighbor.

This small town stuff is really annoying, only because everyone knows everyone. So throw the kid under the bus? I just do not even know what to think about this case, it seems like it is a freaking movie...Lifetime movie of the week!

Perplexed1

01-13-2009, 12:49 PM

A 'hitman' would have killed them along the road.

Even if he was trying to pin it on someone?:confused:

JD1974

01-13-2009, 12:49 PM

There is such thing as 'hitman'. Maybe he drives and old white car with no rims.:blink:

LOL cheap hitman!

Perplexed1

01-13-2009, 12:51 PM

Exactly.

:wink:

Little boy said, "Why would I soot Tim?"

JD1974

01-13-2009, 12:51 PM

More like Deliverance.

OMG haha that movie gave me nightmares!

JD1974

01-13-2009, 12:53 PM

Little boy said, "Why would I soot Tim?"

Kind of like why would you even ask me that...that statement really sticks out in that interroRgation video.

Hawk

01-13-2009, 12:55 PM

Even if he was trying to pin it on someone?:confused:

'Hitmen' don't need to pin it on someone else. They stick and move then are long gone. Who in their right mind would take the risk of going to a man's home kill him indoors with a single shot .22, kill the friend outdoors then drive through a sub-division to escape?

How could this be possible?

Hawk

01-13-2009, 12:57 PM

Tim was a lot of things...but he liked his women, NOT little boys.

How do you know that?

Perplexed1

01-13-2009, 01:01 PM

A Hitman wouldn't care to pin it on anyone.
He wouldn't drive a junker either.

well it is Mayberry.........:rolleyes:

Hawk

01-13-2009, 01:02 PM

Seasoned police officers often times need counseling after shooting even the worst offenders.

Exactly!
And Mrs. Romero certainly isn't a seasoned officer.

bkwits

01-13-2009, 01:03 PM

That would say, in case the boy did it, something very bad must been happened between the boy and Tim?

Excellent point. :thumbup:

Hawk

01-13-2009, 01:06 PM

More like Deliverance.

Paddle faster, I hear banjo music!!

tif

01-13-2009, 01:08 PM

Don't know anything about that. I'm just looking at it in a practical way.
These killing would have been a nasty thing to watch with quivering bodies and perhaps a lot of moans and cries. It takes some one with a special temperament to watch that and not breakdown.

Hawk, are you swaying back to the side of goodness and light?:smile:

Perplexed1

01-13-2009, 01:09 PM

Hawk, are you swaying back to the side of goodness and light?:smile:

Little boy sounded awfully sweet, not evil.

tif

01-13-2009, 01:10 PM

well it is Mayberry.........:rolleyes:

I don't think Andy would have let this happen. He kept a tight leash on Barney.:tongueside:

Hawk

01-13-2009, 01:14 PM

Hawk, are you swaying back to the side of goodness and light?:smile:

I'm only saying that Mrs. Romero didn't do this thing. Not directly anyway.
If drug dealers or a jealous boyfriend was after Mr. Romans they would have done it when he was leaving the bar at 2:00 am. They wouldn't have chanced going to Mr. Romero's house in broad daylight, a known hunter with firearms.

Perplexed1

01-13-2009, 01:14 PM

Because I know.

Just listened to those interviews again yesterday. CR had no animosity in his voice as he talked about Tim, where his room was, etc.

muska

01-13-2009, 01:15 PM

A Hitman wouldn't care to pin it on anyone.
He wouldn't drive a junker either.

A hitman seems more likely than an eight year old! Could also be someone, like a friend or boyfriend, sent to take care of things...someone without the experience of a real hitman.

Hawk

01-13-2009, 01:15 PM

Because I know.

That isn't possible.

Perplexed1

01-13-2009, 01:15 PM

I'm only saying that Mrs. Romero didn't do this thing. Not directly anyway.
If drug dealers or a jealous boyfriend was after Mr. Romans they would have done it when he was leaving the bar at 2:00 am. They wouldn't have chanced going to Mr. Romero's house in broad daylight, a known hunter with firearms.

Crazier things have happened.

tif

01-13-2009, 01:16 PM

I agree. If she took her maiden name and already stopped wearing her wedding ring that is strange. That has nothing to do with demeanor.

As far as I know the only indication she did this was from one reader comment on an online newspaper site. (Can't remember which one) The reader could be in Bucharest for all we know. Please correct me if there was another source.

Hawk

01-13-2009, 01:16 PM

Crazier things have happened.

Can you give an example?

Hawk

01-13-2009, 01:17 PM

No she has been said to be, smart, Self absorbed, devious and selfish.
By friends. :biggrin:

That's along way from being a stone cold killer.

muska

01-13-2009, 01:17 PM

Little boy said, "Why would I soot Tim?"

And also the way he asked, "Shoot my dad?" like it was hard to even say.

PensiveOne

01-13-2009, 01:17 PM

'Hitmen' don't need to pin it on someone else. They stick and move then are long gone. Who in their right mind would take the risk of going to a man's home kill him indoors with a single shot .22, kill the friend outdoors then drive through a sub-division to escape?

How could this be possible?

Well, Hawk you are talking about experienced hitmen. What about the teacher who was having sex with the teenager and talked him into killing her husband?

I was called for jury duty a few years ago. I didn't get picked because they asked me if I believed in the death penalty and I said yes, in some instances I could push the button myself:) Anyway, this woman had these two druggies kill her husband. Guess what she paid them. $1,000 dollars each. They had NO car and kidnapped him in his car. After they had killed him they walked home. It was a brutal murder. He was shot and had his throat slit. Blood everywhere, they stopped at a creek to clean off.

Perplexed1

01-13-2009, 01:18 PM

A hitman seems more likely than an eight year old! Could also be someone, like a friend or boyfriend, sent to take care of things...someone without the experience of a real hitman.

And Tiffany was out of the way---told little one she wouldn't be home. He went hunting with his chipmunk, he wasn't supposed to have. HAD to say it was UPSTAIRS in interview!

muska

01-13-2009, 01:19 PM

Crazier things have happened.

Anger, jealousy, passion...they make a lot of unbelievable things possible.

JD1974

01-13-2009, 01:20 PM

As far as I know the only indication she did this was from one reader comment on an online newspaper site. (Can't remember which one) The reader could be in Bucharest for all we know. Please correct me if there was another source.

That's why I said if...because we really do not know if it is true or not.

Hawk

01-13-2009, 01:23 PM

Well, Hawk you are talking about experienced hitmen. What about the teacher who was having sex with the teenager and talked him into killing her husband?

I was called for jury duty a few years ago. I didn't get picked because they asked me if I believed in the death penalty and I said yes, in some instances I could push the button myself:) Anyway, this woman had these two druggies kill her husband. Guess what she paid them. $1,000 dollars each. They had NO car and kidnapped him in his car. After they had killed him they walked home. It was a brutal murder. He was shot and had his throat slit. Blood everywhere, they stopped at a creek to clean off.

Good example!

But in this case the hitman (junkie, flunky, or boyfriend) would have had to of placed the evidence in the exact locations to match the childs statements, a day before the boy talked. That would really be weird.

Perplexed1

01-13-2009, 01:23 PM

That's along way from being a stone cold killer.

No one would have thought O.J. could have done it , either, but there was too much over kill, and poor Goldman just came along and got in the way.

tif

01-13-2009, 01:23 PM

Hawk

01-13-2009, 01:26 PM

No one would have thought O.J. could have done it , either, but there was too much over kill, and poor Goldman just came along and got in the way.

Millions of people thought OJ did it.

JD1974

01-13-2009, 01:27 PM

Can you give an example?

Examples of strange murders?

PensiveOne

01-13-2009, 01:27 PM

Good example!

But in this case the hitman (junkie, flunky, or boyfriend) would have had to of placed the evidence in the exact locations to match the childs statements, a day before the boy talked. That would really be weird.

Why? They made the boy fit the scenario they had in mind, not vice versa. Why couldn't somebody else have commited the murders? I just don't get what you are saying.

Hawk

01-13-2009, 01:33 PM

I think it's a stretch to assume that the killer(s) were intelligent. One of several sites with hilarious stories: http://www.dumbcriminals.com/

Mr. Romans was sitting in his truck with a .45 ACP pistol in his console. At the first sign of danger he would have reached over and armed himself. Now please explain how gunmen from a car shot him eight times with a .22. And how they killed Mr. Romero inside the house and came outside in full view of Mr. Romans. Had these men seen a car in the driveway when they pulled up wouldn't they have been a mite curious as to who the car belonged to.
None of the neighbors saw a white car.

Hawk

01-13-2009, 01:33 PM

That is how we know it was an "inside job". :tonguewag:

Inside job indeed.

Perplexed1

01-13-2009, 01:34 PM

I think it's a stretch to assume that the killer(s) were intelligent. One of several sites with hilarious stories: http://www.dumbcriminals.com/

Lot's of folks in St. John's that needed money.:closedeyes:

Perplexed1

01-13-2009, 01:36 PM

Lot's of folks in St. John's that needed money.:closedeyes:

Christmas coming on, drug bill overdue, etc.

bkwits

01-13-2009, 01:38 PM

Can you give an example?

The JonBenet Ramsey murder. Unsolved.

The Jackie Dowalibly kidnap and murder.

The Jeanine Nicarico kidnap, rape and murder.

The list is endless where strangers or persons unknown have come into a house and killed or abducted people. Those are just a few that come immediately to mind. There are thounsands of unfatginabke violent crimes.

tif

01-13-2009, 01:40 PM

Millions of people thought OJ did it.

But that was after the evidence started coming to light. Before that OJ was regarded as a very sweet guy, as far as I remember. And no, I'm not switching to the anti-Tiffany camp, but my point is that it could be anybody.

JD1974

01-13-2009, 01:42 PM

Mr. Romans was sitting in his truck with a .45 ACP pistol in his console. At the first sign of danger he would have reached over and armed himself. Now please explain how gunmen from a car shot him eight times with a .22. And how they killed Mr. Romero inside the house and came outside in full view of Mr. Romans. Had these men seen a car in the driveway when they pulled up wouldn't they have been a mite curious as to who the car belonged to.
None of the neighbors saw a white car.

The same can be said about the kid doing it. How did Tim not hear the shots when he was so close to where they were taking place? Maybe he didn't think the whoever was in the car was a danger until the bullets started flying....it is just strange that he ran towards where the shots were coming from instead of away, he had a gun in his truck, why would he go to the house where the shots were coming from instead of grabbing his gun?

Hawk

01-13-2009, 01:42 PM

The JonBenet Ramsey murder. Unsolved.

The Jackie Dowalibly kidnap and murder.

The Jeanine Nicarico kidnap, rape and murder.

The list is endless where strangers or persons unknown have come into a house and killed or abducted people. Those are just a few that come immediately to mind. There are thounsands of unfatginabke violent crimes.

This case involves two strong, healthy construction workers who were familiar with, and owned firearms. These men wouldn't have been as easy to deal with as the victims in those cases.

suzanne

01-13-2009, 01:44 PM

That would say, in case the boy did it, something very bad must been happened between the boy and Tim?

I agree and with his father.

JD1974

01-13-2009, 01:45 PM

The JonBenet Ramsey murder. Unsolved.

The Jackie Dowalibly kidnap and murder.

I have a good friend who was a cousin of theirs, he said the family always thought they had done it. I am honestly not sure if he was telling the truth or not, but it came out when I was talking about posting here, he said have you ever heard about...

PensiveOne

01-13-2009, 01:45 PM

the hitman would have placed the evidence in the locations during the murders, i.e. shell casings on the stairs, in the doorway, shotgun on the cage, no blood on the kids shoes,

shell casings are where they are. I don't see your point.

shotgun on the cage = that has not been proved the murder weapon and the boy could have put it there before he ran away in fear. OR it could have been there for days.

No blood on his shoes = we don't know that yet, and even if that is true that doesn't prove anything.

JD1974

01-13-2009, 01:46 PM

Hawk

01-13-2009, 01:47 PM

That is on the assumption that Tanya actually heard the boy on the phone. who says the shooting started while Tim was in the truck. He could have been walking back to the house when he was first shot.

That's right. So why didn't he run back (probably six feet from the first blood drop on the ground) to his truck and retrieve his pistol?

Was it because he knew the shooter and thought he could overpower the shooter?

Or did the first shot put him in shock and he progressed toward the door unwittingly?

JD1974

01-13-2009, 01:48 PM

Which case? Ramsey or Dowaliby?

Dowaliby...I hate the message is too short error!

suzanne

01-13-2009, 01:49 PM

A 'hitman' would have killed them along the road.

A hitman probably would have used weapons and things from the victims house to point away from him or herself.

PensiveOne

01-13-2009, 01:49 PM

muska

01-13-2009, 01:50 PM

Good example!

But in this case the hitman (junkie, flunky, or boyfriend) would have had to of placed the evidence in the exact locations to match the childs statements, a day before the boy talked. That would really be weird.

What statements? Shot each man twice, Rifle in the closet

The only statement that Might seem to match is - shot TR first then VR, but that's like a True/False question....50% chance of getting it right! I think he was just guessing!

Not Yelling! :biggrin:

JD1974

01-13-2009, 01:53 PM

Who ever set in stone that VR was shot first?

No one actually lol What if TR was shot and VR was going up the stairs to get his gun because he heard the shots...

Hawk

01-13-2009, 01:56 PM

Right, but it only takes an 8 year old to take them both out.

Whoever did this has to be among the top luckiest murderers in recorded history. This thing could not have been planned out the way it happened.
If both Romero and Romans had entered the house at the same time one, or both, would probably be alive today.
If the shooter hadn't been at the top of the stairs and had Romero boxed in, he might well have been able to protect himself.
Had Mrs. Romero arrived home 10 minutes earlier things would have different. On and on..........

suzanne

01-13-2009, 01:57 PM

There is such thing as 'hitman'. Maybe he drives and old white car with no rims.:blink:

Just curious.Did any one find out what grandpas car looked like with a link to it?Did grandpa's car have the no rims?

tif

01-13-2009, 01:57 PM

Hawk, are the locations of the shell casings the evidence you are talking about? If so, I still don't get how you can rely on the casings staying where they were ejected. We know the boy was running around inside the house, along with the real killer if the boy didn't do it and possibly the dog. Don't forget the careless cops. Any of these people could have kicked the casings around.

The white car could have been parked around the block while the killer was in the house.

bkwits

01-13-2009, 01:57 PM

The JonBenet Ramsey murder. Unsolved.

The Jackie Dowalibly kidnap and murder.

The Jeanine Nicarico kidnap, rape and murder.

The list is endless where strangers or persons unknown have come into a house and killed or abducted people. Those are just a few that come immediately to mind. There are thounsands of unfatginabke violent crimes.

I meant to say -- thousands of unfathomable crimes.

Too late to edit.

JD1974

01-13-2009, 01:57 PM

Very interesting Justice, that really would explain a lot of things.

PensiveOne

01-13-2009, 01:58 PM

No one actually lol What if TR was shot and VR was going up the stairs to get his gun because he heard the shots...

I have wondered that myself! That would explain why he still had is work hat and goggles on. He was running!

Perplexed1

01-13-2009, 01:59 PM

But that was after the evidence started coming to light. Before that OJ was regarded as a very sweet guy, as far as I remember. And no, I'm not switching to the anti-Tiffany camp, but my point is that it could be anybody.

Obviously 'millions' thought he didn't do it. He walked.

bkwits

01-13-2009, 02:00 PM

This case involves two strong, healthy construction workers who were familiar with, and owned firearms. These men wouldn't have been as easy to deal with as the victims in those cases.

So, it was easy for an 8 year old to deal with them? You are a very smart man Hawk, but sometimes I can't follow your reasoning. :confused::confused::confused:

suzanne

01-13-2009, 02:01 PM

A Hitman wouldn't care to pin it on anyone.
He wouldn't drive a junker either.

Hit men are organized and do a clean job.I keep remembering the movie Pulp Fiction and how cool they thought the guy was hosing them off and cleaning the car.LOL:laugh:

Details

01-13-2009, 02:02 PM

Good example!

But in this case the hitman (junkie, flunky, or boyfriend) would have had to of placed the evidence in the exact locations to match the childs statements, a day before the boy talked. That would really be weird.Exact? I think you're forgetting 3 things.

First - the child saw the crime scene. No doubt about that - he found the bodies.

Second - the child's statements do not match the crime scene - can you give me any example where his description is an exact match - I've yet to see anything at all that is even a good match? It's wrong on number of gunshots, placement of the gun, all kinds of stuff.

Third - the child is working with what the police told him - his statements match what police asked him to say.

A nonprofessional hitman seems likely to me too. A boyfriend, junkie, drifter, etc. Most people don't have access to mob ties and professional hitmen - they find someone sleazy in their area, and figure they might do it. The house is a good spot - men are off guard, you know when they're supposed to be home - much easier than on the road where the intended victims have a 2 ton weapon at their disposal.

Hawk

01-13-2009, 02:04 PM

And VR was shot in the back while running up the steps.

TR was already dead.

He was shot in the back from upstairs after he as already down.

wolfi_2

01-13-2009, 02:05 PM

Then there is the underwear…, why take they the underwear, Ok nobody can say for 100% sure, that someone haven't "special" interests in this case somebody must know that! -But I still think, why didn´t they take no other clothes from other family members for GSR test?, just to make sure?
This thread is turning me around today!

tif

01-13-2009, 02:06 PM

Who ever set in stone that VR was shot first?

The timeline from Tim's call with Tanya to the 911 call would be tight even for an adult if Vincent were not already dead. If there was one killer, the second victim would have to be unaware of the first shooting. It's more likely that the guy outside would be the one unaware. If there were two killers, all bets are off.

Hawk

01-13-2009, 02:08 PM

Was the gun in his truck even loaded?

It wasn't further to the truck than the front door according to the first blood drop. The truck was much closer and the passengers door was open.

Details

01-13-2009, 02:08 PM

Whoever did this has to be among the top luckiest murderers in recorded history. This thing could not have been planned out the way it happened.
If both Romero and Romans had entered the house at the same time one, or both, would probably be alive today.
If the shooter hadn't been at the top of the stairs and had Romero boxed in, he might well have been able to protect himself.
Had Mrs. Romero arrived home 10 minutes earlier things would have different. On and on..........Same could be said for so many other killers. But it's not that much luck - when you have a gun, and they don't, and they aren't expecting you - it's not that hard to kill someone. If they both entered together - put a round in each, then finish the job. If they enter separately, take the first first. If Mrs Romero gets home, she's dead too. It's not all that difficult.

You look at any murder case, and you find the murderer having some luck - how was Scott Peterson not observed moving the body around? How was OJ so lucky that no one heard anything or saw anything when he was out in the open? How did David Westerfield get that little girl, and keep her so well hidden?

Details

01-13-2009, 02:09 PM

shell casings are where they are. I don't see your point.

shotgun on the cage = that has not been proved the murder weapon and the boy could have put it there before he ran away in fear. OR it could have been there for days.

No blood on his shoes = we don't know that yet, and even if that is true that doesn't prove anything.Shotgun on the cage is one of the many details that is NOT a match to the confession - not to any version of it.

suzanne

01-13-2009, 02:10 PM

That's along way from being a stone cold killer.

True.But I don't know.They are saying Casey Anthony is like this (smart, Self absorbed, devious and selfish.)

Details

01-13-2009, 02:12 PM

Hawk - you've said repeatedly his confession matched the details. Can you say in what way? I've yet to see anything where his confession matched any of the details of the crime, let alone in any unique way that isn't explained by the fact he did see the crime scene or police prompting.

There's nothing. Lots of details that don't match, number of shots and location of the gun being the top items - but nothing that does match.

bkwits

01-13-2009, 02:12 PM

This case involves two strong, healthy construction workers who were familiar with, and owned firearms. These men wouldn't have been as easy to deal with as the victims in those cases.

In two of those cases, Ramsey and Dowaliby, the whole family was home at the time. In the Nicarico case, Dugan (the rapist/murderer) didn't expect anyone to be home.

My point was that these cases are stranger and more complicated than this case. It could have been a random robbery. I believe that the front door was left unlocked.

IMO

JD1974

01-13-2009, 02:13 PM

Murderers always have a bit of luck on their side or else they wouldn't be murderers. They would of been stopped before achieving their goal.

tif

01-13-2009, 02:13 PM

So, it was easy for an 8 year old to deal with them? You are a very smart man Hawk, but sometimes I can't follow your reasoning.

Sometimes I think Hawk just enjoys screwing with us.:tongueside:

Hawk

01-13-2009, 02:14 PM

Same could be said for so many other killers. But it's not that much luck - when you have a gun, and they don't, and they aren't expecting you - it's not that hard to kill someone. If they both entered together - put a round in each, then finish the job. If they enter separately, take the first first. If Mrs Romero gets home, she's dead too. It's not all that difficult.

You look at any murder case, and you find the murderer having some luck - how was Scott Peterson not observed moving the body around? How was OJ so lucky that no one heard anything or saw anything when he was out in the open? How did David Westerfield get that little girl, and keep her so well hidden?

He couldn't have put a round in each with his slow loading single shot rifle. They had about 4 seconds between shots to react.

By the way, someone did see OJ. She was a neighbor of Nicole's.

Jacobtk

01-13-2009, 02:14 PM

Same could be said for so many other killers. But it's not that much luck - when you have a gun, and they don't, and they aren't expecting you - it's not that hard to kill someone. If they both entered together - put a round in each, then finish the job. If they enter separately, take the first first. If Mrs Romero gets home, she's dead too. It's not all that difficult.

That is, of course, assuming Tiffany was not present in the house at the time of the shootings. Her exact whereabouts before the murders are still unclear and it is entirely possible that she committed the acts. This would coincide with the police's initial assumption that a family member had something to do with the murderers and silenced the boy.

muska

01-13-2009, 02:14 PM

And VR was shot in the back while running up the steps.

TR was already dead.

That may be why his arms were under him...he reached out to break his fall.

wolfi_2

01-13-2009, 02:19 PM

They were looking for sexual abuse (motive). If they found anything on the underware, we would have heard by now.

What do you mean turing you around?

-so much new points of view!

Details

01-13-2009, 02:20 PM

He couldn't have put a round in each with his slow loading single shot rifle. They had about 4 seconds between shots to react.

By the way, someone did see OJ. She was a neighbor of Nicole's.You don't know that it was a single shot rifle. It could have been an autoload. Only your presumed sequence of shots makes it a single shot. And with the number of casings in one spot in question (one in a photograph, two in a report - I always believe the photo first) - event he number is in question.

Obviously they didn't see OJ - they saw someone they couldn't ID - or the court case would have been quite different. In every criminal case I've been involved with, someone always lists all the ways the suspect has to have gotten lucky in order to have gotten away with it - you know, the die hard NG who never sees a guilty man - and it's always a fair sized list like yours. It's no shock - but if he hadn't gotten lucky this way, he'd just have done the killings another way - or maybe someone would have gotten away.

PensiveOne

01-13-2009, 02:20 PM

because of what hawk posted "But in this case the hitman (junkie, flunky, or boyfriend) would have had to of placed the evidence in the exact locations to match the childs statements, a day before the boy talked. That would really be weird."

would have had to of placed the evidence in the exact locations that is my point. the boy said he put the gun in the closet. it was on the cage. shells casings were where the shooters left them, before they coerced a confession out of the boy

Oh, sorry about that. Sarcasm is hard to read.:thumbup:

bkwits

01-13-2009, 02:23 PM

Dowaliby...I hate the message is too short error!

I believe it is generally held that a relative of the bio father did it. I don't think he was charged, but he had told several people. David Dowalibly was cleared. There was really no evidence against him. He spent time in prison. The case against Mrs. Dowalibly was dismissed, no evidence at all.

suzanne

01-13-2009, 02:25 PM

Exact? I think you're forgetting 3 things.

First - the child saw the crime scene. No doubt about that - he found the bodies.

Second - the child's statements do not match the crime scene - can you give me any example where his description is an exact match - I've yet to see anything at all that is even a good match? It's wrong on number of gunshots, placement of the gun, all kinds of stuff.

Third - the child is working with what the police told him - his statements match what police asked him to say.

A nonprofessional hitman seems likely to me too. A boyfriend, junkie, drifter, etc. Most people don't have access to mob ties and professional hitmen - they find someone sleazy in their area, and figure they might do it. The house is a good spot - men are off guard, you know when they're supposed to be home - much easier than on the road where the intended victims have a 2 ton weapon at their disposal.

I was thinking does any one remember this.I really do not want to see the confession again please.It upsets me.The little boy in the confession tape said a friend?or the name Leroy?had a gun just like his?Same bullets.Do you remember this?Who was he talking about?

Details

01-13-2009, 02:26 PM

A perspective on luck - the odds against drawing a Royal Flush are - what, some millions to one? So if you do so, it's luck. But it's the same odds against drawing a 2 of hearts, 3 of spades, 8 of diamonds, jack of clubs, and king of hearts - or any other randomly selected hand. Whatever you draw, the odds were a million to one.

The way this murder went down, what order the men entered in, where the wife and boy were - you can consider that as being something where the odds were against it - but the same goes for every possible location of those people. If the boy was home, we could say that was an unlikely case since he liked to run about. If they both entered at the same time so the killer didn't have to shoot Tim outside and risk being seen, we could call that one the unlikely case. Every possibility has the odds against it - but one of those possibilities has to happen. Picking the one that did, and figuring it's odds - it's meaningless unless it was highly unusual for the men to enter separately, for the boy to run around and play, for the mom not to be home yet - and from what I can tell, it wasn't.

The killer didn't get the worst possible situation - but nor did they get the best, with Tim outside. It's nothing odd, nor is it any particularly suspicious coincidence - it's just what happened that day.

Hawk

01-13-2009, 02:26 PM

You don't know that it was a single shot rifle. It could have been an autoload. Only your presumed sequence of shots makes it a single shot. And with the number of casings in one spot in question (one in a photograph, two in a report - I always believe the photo first) - event he number is in question.

Obviously they didn't see OJ - they saw someone they couldn't ID - or the court case would have been quite different. In every criminal case I've been involved with, someone always lists all the ways the suspect has to have gotten lucky in order to have gotten away with it - you know, the die hard NG who never sees a guilty man - and it's always a fair sized list like yours. It's no shock - but if he hadn't gotten lucky this way, he'd just have done the killings another way - or maybe someone would have gotten away.

A neighbor was walking her dog and saw OJ in his white Bronco. Later she was interviewed by a National Enquirer reporter and stated what she saw.
Marsha Clark and company knew about it but didn't present it as evidence (one of many, many Marsha Clark mistakes) because the paper is such a sleaze rag and Johnny Cochran would have claimed the lady got paid. She didn't get paid, she was just answering questions. It's unlikely someone living in that high dollar area would need the little bit of money the Enquirer pays.

Sorry to be off topic.

bkwits

01-13-2009, 02:28 PM

Sometimes I think Hawk just enjoys screwing with us.:tongueside:

Absolutely :thumbsup:

Jacobtk

01-13-2009, 02:29 PM

The night of the murder, Alvia talked to the boy. Tiffany was present. Alvia told the boy right then and there he would be in BIG trouble with Tiffany if he didn't tell what happened.

This kid didn't stand a chance.

I have to say, that was perhaps the first idiotic decision the police made. Once they assumed the boy knew who the shooter was they should have had him placed into foster care and then interviewed him a few days later while disallowing any contact with his family members outside of his mother. That way they could have been sure that he was safe and no longer under anyone's control. They could have had him removed on the basis of his protection. By allowing him to have constant contact with people they apparently suspected were murders, they undermined their own theory.

Details

01-13-2009, 02:29 PM

A neighbor was walking her dog and saw OJ in his white Bronco. ..No problem, thanks for the answer, that was dumb, I never heard about that - although I was referring to the luck in not being seen during the murder, not afterwards.

Details

01-13-2009, 02:35 PM

We should contact that guy on that tv show "Numb3rs" to figure the odds for us.Like I said - people have trouble with odds - they think the odds mean something different than what they mean. I could flip a coin 10 times right now, and whatever sequence of heads and tails I get - the odds against that are .5^10. Does that mean I did magic to get that sequence? Nope - just that some sequence or other has to happen, and the odds against all of them are the same .5^10 - or a mere 0.098% chance of happening.

If I predict it - then it's amazing. But if it just happens, and someone looks at it and figures I've done a trick because I just got an occurrence that has a chance in a thousand of happening - they don't understand statistics and odds.

The odds that the father goes inside, Tim stays outside, the mother doesn't come home - who knows exactly what they are - this could be the routine that you could see happen every single night, or could be one of several variations that happens once a week or month. But some variation had to happen - the fact that this one did doesn't have any particular significance, more likely than not.

Hawk

01-13-2009, 02:38 PM

Like I said - people have trouble with odds - they think the odds mean something different than what they mean. I could flip a coin 10 times right now, and whatever sequence of heads and tails I get - the odds against that are .5^10. Does that mean I did magic to get that sequence? Nope - just that some sequence or other has to happen, and the odds against all of them are the same .5^10 - or a mere 0.098% chance of happening.

If I predict it - then it's amazing. But if it just happens, and someone looks at it and figures I've done a trick because I just got an occurrence that has a chance in a thousand of happening - they don't understand statistics and odds.

The odds that the father goes inside, Tim stays outside, the mother doesn't come home - who knows exactly what they are - this could be the routine that you could see happen every single night, or could be one of several variations that happens once a week or month. But some variation had to happen - the fact that this one did doesn't have any particular significance, more likely than not.

So, doesn't that show that these killing were impulsive and not planned by a logically thinking person?

suzanne

01-13-2009, 02:42 PM

Leroy. I think that's his grandfather.

So Leroy wasn't his friend he was talking about in the confession tape?You think he was talking about his father in the confession tape?Did you hear he said Leroy?had the same gun as he did and used the same bullets?Do they use the same bullets?

Details

01-13-2009, 02:44 PM

So, doesn't that show that these killing were impulsive and not planned by a logically thinking person?How do you get that from my post? Just because the order of entry and time of arrival would likely have some flexibility doesn't mean the killer didn't plan out exactly what they were doing. They may have planned, they may have figured, "I have a gun, I can handle whatever happens", they may have stumbled in drunk, they may have been a cold blooded sharpshooter. There's nothing to the crime to give the answers to any of these questions. You can look at it and see it was a bit overkill, someone wanted to be very sure that both, and particularly Tim, were dead - and you can see that whoever did it, if they used a single shot, didn't drop a shell. That's about what we know. Could have been someone impulsive and angry, who had steady hands and excellent coordination, could have been someone logical and cold, taking care of all of this in order. The shots from both above and below on the stairs suggest they checked the upstairs after killing the father - and dropped another round in him from up there, or were laying in wait upstairs, and stepped over the body before pumping two more rounds into it.

I'm working on potty training a toddler right now. Just because her schedule is a bit random doesn't mean my training is. The odds are random, what happened is what happened - and none of that has anything to do with what the killer's plans were.

tif

01-13-2009, 02:49 PM

He couldn't have put a round in each with his slow loading single shot rifle. They had about 4 seconds between shots to react.

Hawk, I can be dense sometimes but I make up for it with persistence. I'm going to keep asking the same question until you answer it. I'm really not trying to be argumentative; I would just like the answer. My prior post:

Hawk, are the locations of the shell casings the evidence you are talking about? If so, I still don't get how you can rely on the casings staying where they were ejected. We know the boy was running around inside the house, along with the real killer if the boy didn't do it and possibly the dog. Don't forget the careless cops. Any of these people could have kicked the casings around.

If you're not talking about the locations of the casings, then I'm really lost.

suzanne

01-13-2009, 02:52 PM

iirc, his friends name is Cage.
Leroy I believe is the boy's grandfather. iirc, the grandfather had a gun which shot the same ammo as the boy's. grandfather's gun was kept at the boy's house, and is missing from the boy's house. don't quote me on the last statement, i read that somewhere and don't remember if it was credible info or not.

Uh-oh.It looks like grandpa,sounds like grandpa.It must be grandpa.I would like to know more about all this.

Hawk

01-13-2009, 02:54 PM

Hawk, I can be dense sometimes but I make up for it with persistence. I'm going to keep asking the same question until you answer it. I'm really not trying to be argumentative; I would just like the answer. My prior post:

Hawk, are the locations of the shell casings the evidence you are talking about? If so, I still don't get how you can rely on the casings staying where they were ejected. We know the boy was running around inside the house, along with the real killer if the boy didn't do it and possibly the dog. Don't forget the careless cops. Any of these people could have kicked the casings around.

If you're not talking about the locations of the casings, then I'm really lost.

The giveaway is that five casings were found inside the house and five outside.

tif

01-13-2009, 02:57 PM

The giveaway is that five casings were found inside the house and five outside.

How does that implicate the boy?

suzanne

01-13-2009, 03:00 PM

JD1974

01-13-2009, 03:02 PM

but wasn't Tim shot 6 times (outside) and Vincent 4 (inside)? That doesn't add up to 5 + 5

It does if the first shot on Tim came from the inside..

OR whoever did it ejected the last shot on Tim inside the house..

I am confusing myself

Perplexed1

01-13-2009, 03:07 PM

True.But I don't know.They are saying Casey Anthony is like this (smart, Self absorbed, devious and selfish.)

Jumping back in. My dang job was holding me.
Narssasistic is the word here.

JD1974

01-13-2009, 03:08 PM

Details

01-13-2009, 03:15 PM

Ok I have a new theory. Suppose TR gets shot first, he is not dead though. He is trying to make it into the house, maybe crawling, who knows. Anyway when the killer enters the house he or she ejects the last shot they used to hit TR with. While VR is trying to get upstairs to his gun, he gets shot..all 4 shots. When the killer goes to leave, realizes TR isn't dead and shoots him however many more times. 5 shells inside, 5 shells outside.Exactly - it's all about order. To assume we know the type of gun from the casings, we would have to know the order of the shots - and we don't have that info.

And 1 of the 5 is that weird round that is not in the photo, but is in a description - is it real or not?

Perplexed1

01-13-2009, 03:18 PM

JD1974

01-13-2009, 03:18 PM

Exactly - it's all about order. To assume we know the type of gun from the casings, we would have to know the order of the shots - and we don't have that info.

And 1 of the 5 is that weird round that is not in the photo, but is in a description - is it real or not?

I don't know, LE down there really seems to have botched a lot.

tif

01-13-2009, 03:20 PM

I have to go be productive for a while. If anyone has the time and inclination, I would appreciate it if you would beat a complete answer out of Hawk for me.:smile:

JD1974

01-13-2009, 03:21 PM

It seems like if the boy received his last spanking from Tiffany- and maybe most of them- Dad's like to pass the buck-seems he would have been out for her, instead of his buddies.

The stranger thing is TR was shot more times than VR, usually that would lead you to believe he was the target and VR just happened to be an unlucky witness so he had to be killed also.

JD1974

01-13-2009, 03:21 PM

I have to go be productive for a while. If anyone has the time and inclination, I would appreciate it if you would beat a complete answer out of Hawk for me.:smile:

LOL Tif, see you later.

JD1974

01-13-2009, 03:23 PM

[quote=JD1974;12649660]Could that be the mother of his daughter?[/QUOT

I think I missed something. I wasn't aware that VR had a second daughter. Could that be the little girl in the wedding pictures dancing behind the boy that looks ALOT like him. He only had a picture of the boy in his wallet.
Also, from what I read they were planning this wedding for two years and going to all the catholic classes, etc. I would have thought it would have come out long before then that he didn't want more kids.
Maybe he strung her along all this time and when she finally came to resolution he didn't want more kids this was the only way out of it...

Yes he has a daughter, for the life of me I cannot remember her name, but iirc she was mentioned in the obit.

JD1974

01-13-2009, 03:24 PM

Hey, I just noticed something. Tell me if it is a typo or not. For the DA's sake it had better be a typo.

The petition for delequent petition, the statement says "Petitioner this 5th day of November, 2008 alleges that said child is delinquent or complains that in the State of Arizona, Apache County Arizona:
Count I
First Degree Murder" yada, yada yada.

the murders were on nov. 5th, the boy so called confession wasn't until the 6th. what's with this petition??

Maybe it is just based on the date of the murder and not the date it was filed? Wait, that does look kind of strange...

suzanne

01-13-2009, 03:33 PM

JD1974

01-13-2009, 03:34 PM

[QUOTE=JD1974;12650846]

Man this just keeps getting more wacked out.
I took a nap for two hours and I have all this reading I need to do now just to catch up with you guys. Glad I stumbled upon you all!

I know it is really strange all around. Judges handing out warrants when they know they shouldn't....LE members questioning this kid who are friends with Tiffany Romero, Avila..I don't even know what to say about her, the whole way the interroRgation played out, not grabbing everyones clothes right after the murder, 1st person you look at it the spouse...thats another thing...why not question the family before you move on to the 8 year old? I mean they did some questioning but nothing like if they had thought the boy witnessed a family member killing these guys..which is the reason they give for questioning him to begin with. They say they thought he was a witness and was covering for someone, yet didn't talk to any of the people he would be covering for??

Hawk

01-13-2009, 03:36 PM

How does that implicate the boy?

Because he said that he shot Mr. Romero first. Then Mr. Romans.

Marker V One Shot from the upstairs hallway to Mr. Romero's right arm bounced off bone exited and stopped at the rib cage, but not entering causing the victim to grasp his chest. Round ejected. Gun reloaded.
One head shot above left ear fragmented in brain. The victim fell across the top step and landing.
Marker U Shooter stepped over victim and ejected shell on the 4th step up on the second flight of stairs. Casing landed next to the south (right side wall when descending) wall.

Marker X Mr. Romans was first shot from near the front door, the bullet entered the right arm, exited the top of the right forearm then went into his ribs. Shooter ejected and reloaded.
Marker T Romans was shot in the right lung. Shooter ejected and reloaded.
Front door mat Romans was shot in the heart and collapsed. Shooter ejected and reloaded. This shot was only 3-4 inches from the lung shot.
Behind the front door (?) A shot grazed Mr. Romans head.
Door mat Two shots hit Mr. Romans in the back of the head. (Six shots. Eight wounds).

Shooter paused, then went back inside.

Marker E (This is the telling one) Shooter ejected on 2nd step of the 1st flight of stairs while ascending. The casing hit the south (right hand going up) wall. The shooter reloaded as he climbed up and over Mr. Romero. He then shot Mr. Romero again hitting him in the back near the center of the right shoulder blade. The shooter ejected, this round landing near Marker V, reloaded, then shot Mr. Romero through his hardhat and into his brain. The shooter then went back down the stairs, over the body, and ejected the last shell (Marker F) on the 3rd step from the bottom at Mr. Romero's feet. (Four shots. Six wounds).

He reloaded and left the rifle on the dog cage.

Details

01-13-2009, 03:50 PM

Because he said that he shot Mr. Romero first. Then Mr. Romans.

Marker V One Shot from the upstairs hallway to Mr. Romero's right arm bounced off bone exited and stopped at the rib cage, but not entering causing the victim to grasp his chest. Round ejected. Gun reloaded.
One head shot above left ear fragmented in brain. The victim fell across the top step and landing.
Marker U Shooter stepped over victim and ejected shell on the 4th step up on the second flight of stairs. Casing landed next to the south (right side wall when descending) wall.

Marker X Mr. Romans was first shot from near the front door, the bullet entered the right arm, exited the top of the right forearm then went into his ribs. Shooter ejected and reloaded.
Marker T Romans was shot in the right lung. Shooter ejected and reloaded.
Front door mat Romans was shot in the heart and collapsed. Shooter ejected and reloaded. This shot was only 3-4 inches from the lung shot.
Behind the front door (?) A shot grazed Mr. Romans head.
Door mat Two shots hit Mr. Romans in the back of the head. (Six shots. Eight wounds).

Shooter paused, then went back inside.

Marker E (This is the telling one) Shooter ejected on 2nd step of the 1st flight of stairs while ascending. The casing hit the south (right hand going up) wall. The shooter reloaded as he climbed up and over Mr. Romero. He then shot Mr. Romero again hitting him in the back near the center of the right shoulder blade. The shooter ejected, this round landing near Marker V, reloaded, then shot Mr. Romero through his hardhat and into his brain. The shooter then went back down the stairs, over the body, and ejected the last shell (Marker F) on the 3rd step from the bottom at Mr. Romero's feet. (Four shots. Six wounds).

He reloaded and left the rifle on the dog cage.None of this other than the order, is in the boy's confession. And he was prompted to say he had shot his father first, only added Tim after he was prompted to do so. So the order is not relevant. Nor do we have anything to say which was shoot first, other than theories that can go either way.

And he said, twice, that he left the gun in the closet. Or rather, like his entire confession, that he thought or guessed he left the gun in the closet. Not on the dog cage.

Hawk

01-13-2009, 03:54 PM

None of this other than the order, is in the boy's confession. And he was prompted to say he had shot his father first, only added Tim after he was prompted to do so. So the order is not relevant. Nor do we have anything to say which was shoot first, other than theories that can go either way.

And he said, twice, that he left the gun in the closet. Or rather, like his entire confession, that he thought or guessed he left the gun in the closet. Not on the dog cage.

The casings locations are not theory. They are evidence.

muska

01-13-2009, 03:58 PM

Because he said that he shot Mr. Romero first. Then Mr. Romans.

Marker V One Shot from the upstairs hallway to Mr. Romero's right arm bounced off bone exited and stopped at the rib cage, but not entering causing the victim to grasp his chest. Round ejected. Gun reloaded.
One head shot above left ear fragmented in brain. The victim fell across the top step and landing.
Marker U Shooter stepped over victim and ejected shell on the 4th step up on the second flight of stairs. Casing landed next to the south (right side wall when descending) wall.

Marker X Mr. Romans was first shot from near the front door, the bullet entered the right arm, exited the top of the right forearm then went into his ribs. Shooter ejected and reloaded.
Marker T Romans was shot in the right lung. Shooter ejected and reloaded.
Front door mat Romans was shot in the heart and collapsed. Shooter ejected and reloaded. This shot was only 3-4 inches from the lung shot.
Behind the front door (?) A shot grazed Mr. Romans head.
Door mat Two shots hit Mr. Romans in the back of the head. (Six shots. Eight wounds).

Shooter paused, then went back inside.

Marker E (This is the telling one) Shooter ejected on 2nd step of the 1st flight of stairs while ascending. The casing hit the south (right hand going up) wall. The shooter reloaded as he climbed up and over Mr. Romero. He then shot Mr. Romero again hitting him in the back near the center of the right shoulder blade. The shooter ejected, this round landing near Marker V, reloaded, then shot Mr. Romero through his hardhat and into his brain. The shooter then went back down the stairs, over the body, and ejected the last shell (Marker F) on the 3rd step from the bottom at Mr. Romero's feet. (Four shots. Six wounds).

He reloaded and left the rifle on the dog cage.

Saying who he shot first is a 50-50 guess - Avila wanted to know how it happened and he made something up - could have just as well said the opposite.

muska

01-13-2009, 04:01 PM

The casings locations are not theory. They are evidence.

but they don't prove who left them - also I've read some articles that suggesst that casings bounce around, ricchochet etc - again, not an exact science

Crispy

01-13-2009, 04:02 PM

The casings locations are not theory. They are evidence.

They are evidence that a weapon was fired, not who fired the weapon

muska

01-13-2009, 04:13 PM

This discussion about the "confession" and what the child might or might not have meant just goes to show that prosecution accomplished what it wanted in releasing a coerced confession. People are going to remember and believe the words the child said even if there is no reason to believe them. Prosecution knew the tape would never be admissable so they released it so they could have a public trial and conviction. Seems like there should be some charge for misconduct there.

Hawk

01-13-2009, 04:17 PM

Details

01-13-2009, 04:19 PM

The casings locations are not theory. They are evidence.The casings are not numbered. Any decision about what order they were fired in is indeed theory - or less - a wild guess.

suzanne

01-13-2009, 04:24 PM

why reload and then leave it on the dog cage.

now let me try to get this straight; he (an 8/9 yo little boy) was supposed to have done this within 7 minutes and with a gun he had to empty, and reload before shooting each time?

I can see how that is possible. (not)

I don't think he had time enjoying watching them die either.

Details

01-13-2009, 04:32 PM

i think someone said earlier that the pins (from the bullet or casings?) didn't match up so they are sending them out for further testingIt's all guesswork right now. We know they're going for extra testing - we don't know why.

suzanne

01-13-2009, 04:42 PM

It's all guesswork right now. We know they're going for extra testing - we don't know why.
Who's asking for extra testing?

muska

01-13-2009, 04:51 PM

Throw out the interrogation, look at the available evidence, then figure out a rational scenario. It's quite a puzzle. And there is an answer.

Too much of a puzzle for me. I'm not sure that it will ever really be solved. I guess time will tell.

Details

01-13-2009, 05:02 PM

Who's asking for extra testing?IIRC, Prosecution.

Details

01-13-2009, 05:04 PM

Too much of a puzzle for me. I'm not sure that it will ever really be solved. I guess time will tell.Right now there are many possible answers - gunman starting on 2nd floor, gunman starting in house first floor, gunman starting outside, two gunmen with 22 rifles, etc. Each of these has many variables about if all shots were fired into each victim at once, or if say, half the shots were fired into each victim, then the next victim, then the killer came back to each to finish the job for sure. The casings cannot tell us this - they're information - but they don't make anything sure.

wolfi_2

01-13-2009, 05:06 PM

Throw out the interrogation, look at the available evidence, then figure out a rational scenario. It's quite a puzzle. And there is an answer.

I think Hawk is right about the casings theories, it’s well figured out, but just based on the fact’s we have. I just imagine he is right, every time I come to the same conclusion, I go and look for a reason, had the boy any reason to shoot Tim? to shoot his dad? And I still can’t find any, not without any heavy abuse! He had more a reason to shoot Tiffany, but Tiffany had probably a reason, more than the boy, to shoot the man, but the timeline for Tiffany is very tough too. -Granddad Leroy had he a reason? For me the first suspect in line would be still Tiffany, Yes she had a good alibi, but how true is it? I still can’t believe that they didn’t take any clothes and fingerprints from Tiffany also.

Perplexed1

01-13-2009, 05:10 PM

Because he said that he shot Mr. Romero first. Then Mr. Romans.

Marker V One Shot from the upstairs hallway to Mr. Romero's right arm bounced off bone exited and stopped at the rib cage, but not entering causing the victim to grasp his chest. Round ejected. Gun reloaded.
One head shot above left ear fragmented in brain. The victim fell across the top step and landing.
Marker U Shooter stepped over victim and ejected shell on the 4th step up on the second flight of stairs. Casing landed next to the south (right side wall when descending) wall.

Marker X Mr. Romans was first shot from near the front door, the bullet entered the right arm, exited the top of the right forearm then went into his ribs. Shooter ejected and reloaded.
Marker T Romans was shot in the right lung. Shooter ejected and reloaded.
Front door mat Romans was shot in the heart and collapsed. Shooter ejected and reloaded. This shot was only 3-4 inches from the lung shot.
Behind the front door (?) A shot grazed Mr. Romans head.
Door mat Two shots hit Mr. Romans in the back of the head. (Six shots. Eight wounds).

Shooter paused, then went back inside.

Marker E (This is the telling one) Shooter ejected on 2nd step of the 1st flight of stairs while ascending. The casing hit the south (right hand going up) wall. The shooter reloaded as he climbed up and over Mr. Romero. He then shot Mr. Romero again hitting him in the back near the center of the right shoulder blade. The shooter ejected, this round landing near Marker V, reloaded, then shot Mr. Romero through his hardhat and into his brain. The shooter then went back down the stairs, over the body, and ejected the last shell (Marker F) on the 3rd step from the bottom at Mr. Romero's feet. (Four shots. Six wounds).

He reloaded and left the rifle on the dog cage.

A lot of manuevering for a little boy, in such a short time.

suzanne

01-13-2009, 05:10 PM

IIRC, Prosecution. Ok,Thank you.May I please ask who had it tested the first time?Why do you and others think they want to retest it?Shouldn't this be cut and dry if the gun shot those bullets.(Did I say that right?)

Perplexed1

01-13-2009, 05:19 PM

Time to leave my job. You guys will probably have it all figured out by the time I get home in 45 min.!:loveeyes:

wolfi_2

01-13-2009, 05:23 PM

Hm, there are still a lot of “I think” and “if ´s” in the whole case. The only things we know is, that the little boy is still sitting in a single cell without help and visits are none contact .:sad:

Details

01-13-2009, 05:23 PM

Ok,Thank you.May I please ask who had it tested the first time?Why do you and others think they want to retest it?Shouldn't this be cut and dry if the gun shot those bullets.(Did I say that right?)Prosecution both times.

suzanne

01-13-2009, 05:26 PM

Prosecution both times.

Ok,Thank you.Does any one have any idea's of why they would do this.:confused:

Hawk

01-13-2009, 05:29 PM

I think Hawk is right about the casings theories, it’s well figured out, but just based on the fact’s we have. I just imagine he is right, every time I come to the same conclusion, I go and look for a reason, had the boy any reason to shoot Tim? to shoot his dad? And I still can’t find any, not without any heavy abuse! He had more a reason to shoot Tiffany, but Tiffany had probably a reason, more than the boy, to shoot the man, but the timeline for Tiffany is very tough too. -Granddad Leroy had he a reason? For me the first suspect in line would be still Tiffany, Yes she had a good alibi, but how true is it? I still can’t believe that they didn’t take any clothes and fingerprints from Tiffany also.

I can't figure out a motive for anyone to murder these two men, either.
If someone could answer that we could jump ahead a few spaces. Set aside the evidence for awhile, that's the easy part. A reasonable motive (if there is such a thing) is much harder to explain. And why LE threw their hands up so soon.
Just my opinion.

secrets

01-13-2009, 05:34 PM

Mainly @ Hawks

I appreciate thinking and having different opinion, but I just have this feeling that behind your "playing for both sides", is you trying to convince more people in the child's guilt, as in fact you believe he is guilty.
If I'm wrong, I apologize.

I thought, and started to write all the reasons I think that is the case, but it just seemed like an attack, and not a discussion, so I gave up. So, I decided I will try in my next post to just put some thoughts I have , something like a list of important facts, or/and things that LE screwed up.
I hope other posters will add things I missed.

Hawk

01-13-2009, 05:37 PM

But I thought they found blood leading to the front porch six feet away from the truck for Romans?

I thought there were six wounds on Romans and 4 on Romero. Where is the link to the autopsy report?

Mr. Romans was shot six times. Mr. Romero four.

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/Guinn.pdf

Details

01-13-2009, 05:42 PM

I can't figure out a motive for anyone to murder these two men, either.
If someone could answer that we could jump ahead a few spaces. Set aside the evidence for awhile, that's the easy part. A reasonable motive (if there is such a thing) is much harder to explain. And why LE threw their hands up so soon.
Just my opinion.Motive is sadly the easiest bit to answer here, as I see it. There's an overabundance of motives - in no particular order:

- Child custody - the boy's mother may have wanted more custody.
- Jealousy - the boy's mother could have been jealous at her ex moving on; Tim's wife could have heard or figured out about Tim's mistress or girlfriend, could have heard about the reported proposal; Tim's mistress or girlfriend could have found out about his wife and been ticked off that they didn't know.
- Financial - Tim's the main income for Tim's wife, according to her - if he was indeed proposing to another woman, that'd go away soon.
- Drugs - there's a history of drug dealing, and several hundred dollar bills on one of the men - if they were getting back into it, a competing dealer could have decided to take out the competition.
- Work conflicts - there were some strong work conflicts - it's been a motive for murder in the past, could have been here.
- Bar fight - there are reports of bar conflicts - strong enough that a shot was fired into Tim's truck - the bullet hole was still there.

Any of the people with these motives could have done it themselves, or hired it done, or had a friend or family member help them out with it.

Why LE threw up their hands so soon - again, we've got plenty of possible reasons. Because they were just lazy and didn't believe in false confessions (as many people don't). Because they knew someone who might be a suspect, and didn't want to investigate them (small town, lots of interconnections, as we've already seen).

Cherishlove

01-13-2009, 05:44 PM

A hitman probably would have used weapons and things from the victims house to point away from him or herself. The hit man made it look like the boy did it, right now I'm wondering if the Step Mom had something to do with this? If she's not there for this child right now as they say she is not she is my #1 suspect.

Details

01-13-2009, 05:48 PM

The hit man made it look like the boy did it, right now I'm wondering if the Step Mom had something to do with this? If she's not there for this child right now as they say she is not she is my #1 suspect.I don't think a hitman would have been aiming at making it seem the child did it - nor do I see any evidence of framing in that way. But they might have figured it'd work well to use a gun from inside the house, the missing mossberg or the chipmunk, so their own gun would not implicate them, if ever found.

Details

01-13-2009, 05:50 PM

Hawk

01-13-2009, 05:51 PM

Motive is sadly the easiest bit to answer here, as I see it. There's an overabundance of motives - in no particular order:

- Child custody - the boy's mother may have wanted more custody.
- Jealousy - the boy's mother could have been jealous at her ex moving on; Tim's wife could have heard or figured out about Tim's mistress or girlfriend, could have heard about the reported proposal; Tim's mistress or girlfriend could have found out about his wife and been ticked off that they didn't know.
- Financial - Tim's the main income for Tim's wife, according to her - if he was indeed proposing to another woman, that'd go away soon.
- Drugs - there's a history of drug dealing, and several hundred dollar bills on one of the men - if they were getting back into it, a competing dealer could have decided to take out the competition.
- Work conflicts - there were some strong work conflicts - it's been a motive for murder in the past, could have been here.
- Bar fight - there are reports of bar conflicts - strong enough that a shot was fired into Tim's truck - the bullet hole was still there.

Any of the people with these motives could have done it themselves, or hired it done, or had a friend or family member help them out with it.

Why LE threw up their hands so soon - again, we've got plenty of possible reasons. Because they were just lazy and didn't believe in false confessions (as many people don't). Because they knew someone who might be a suspect, and didn't want to investigate them (small town, lots of interconnections, as we've already seen).

Good points. There's also a possibilty of a husband or boyfriend of one of Mr. Romans close 'friends'.

PensiveOne

01-13-2009, 05:54 PM

Cherishlove

01-13-2009, 05:57 PM

PensiveOne

01-13-2009, 05:57 PM

One more thing. There is a Roman's family spokesman. Why isn't there a Romero family spokesman?

suzanne

01-13-2009, 05:59 PM

wolfi_2

01-13-2009, 05:59 PM

If there is no motive, it would be an accident, that’s hard to believe! So for me always comes the motive first, than look for the fact’s and if the fact’s fit the motive, bingo. But in this case both don’t fit in all parts together. So why LE took there hands up that fast is a very good question!

Hawk

01-13-2009, 06:00 PM

What I want to hear is somebody, anybody in that family stand up and say that this boy is innocent. That he did not do this. That doesn't prove innocence or guilt, it is just something I would expect to hear. I don't think a gag order would prevent anybody from doing that.

There again, why isn't a local AZ reporter hounding these 'non-gag-order' individuals. Seems like a reporter would jump at the chance to make national news.
Everything about this case bothers me.

Details

01-13-2009, 06:01 PM

Good points. There's also a possibilty of a husband or boyfriend of one of Mr. Romans close 'friends'.Ah yes, I forgot about them. Oh, or an outraged brother or father of a wife or girlfriend.

Although with the number of shots they took at him, I'm thinking this was pretty personal. The father - they just made sure he was dead. Tim - that was overkill, that feels personal. So I'd go for husband or boyfriend or lover or drug dealer (they'll go overkill to make a point to their enemies). Maybe that bar brawl, somewhat less likely on the employees - although many of us know how nuts an unpleasant coworker or worse, boss, can make you when you have no choice but to go work with them every single day.

suzanne

01-13-2009, 06:02 PM

Mr. Romans was shot six times. Mr. Romero four.

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/Guinn.pdf

Am I missing it.Where does the ME say it's all the same bullets from the same gun?:confused:

PensiveOne

01-13-2009, 06:02 PM

Details

01-13-2009, 06:03 PM

LOL.I never said there was a hit man.Other people were just talking about it.I wouldn't think a classic hit man (a full or part time professional killer) - but an individual paid or voluntarily killing for someone else with a motive - it's not impossible.

PensiveOne

01-13-2009, 06:04 PM

There again, why isn't a local AZ reporter hounding these 'non-gag-order' individuals. Seems like a reporter would jump at the chance to make national news.
Everything about this case bothers me.

I am bothered about it, too. I hope in the next couple of weeks somebody breaks a story or two.

Details

01-13-2009, 06:04 PM

Am I missing it.Where does the ME say it's all the same bullets from the same gun?:confused:They don't. They do say same caliber, same type of bullet, directly or implicitly. But it's not for the ME to say if it's the same gun. That's for the ballistics lab.

Cherishlove

01-13-2009, 06:06 PM

I think Hawk is right about the casings theories, it’s well figured out, but just based on the fact’s we have. I just imagine he is right, every time I come to the same conclusion, I go and look for a reason, had the boy any reason to shoot Tim? to shoot his dad? And I still can’t find any, not without any heavy abuse! He had more a reason to shoot Tiffany, but Tiffany had probably a reason, more than the boy, to shoot the man, but the timeline for Tiffany is very tough too. -Granddad Leroy had he a reason? For me the first suspect in line would be still Tiffany, Yes she had a good alibi, but how true is it? I still can’t believe that they didn’t take any clothes and fingerprints from Tiffany also. She could of hired to have it done? That is a thought anyway. I hate to accuse anyone but she has been a suspect of mine from day one,now I hear she's not there for the boy? Makes me wonder even more.

Hawk

01-13-2009, 06:06 PM

Am I missing it.Where does the ME say it's all the same bullets from the same gun?:confused:

No one has said that (except Avila in the interrogation). The casings test results aren't known yet. At least to the public.

Oops. Details beat me to it.

bkwits

01-13-2009, 06:06 PM

Don't forget random acts. Burglary gone wrong. Who knows?

By the way...while motive is a great investigative tool and also helps to prove guilt, it is NOT a necessary component of a guilty verdict. Sometimes people kill for no reason at all. :crying:

My thoughts exactly. Often burglary is an impulsive act, nIot well-thought out. I believe the front door was prob left unlocked. The house is a corner house, a popular target for petty burglary.

If it was a burglary, the burglar or burlglars may have used a gun from the Romero house.

IMO

suzanne

01-13-2009, 06:06 PM

They don't. They do say same caliber, same type of bullet, directly or implicitly. But it's not for the ME to say if it's the same gun. That's for the ballistics lab.

Ok,Thank you.

Hawk

01-13-2009, 06:10 PM

I agree!

Who benefits the most with VR out of the picture?

And that's a hard spot. Who benefits the most from Mr.Romans demise? Why would anyone want both these men dead?

suzanne

01-13-2009, 06:12 PM

I wouldn't think a classic hit man (a full or part time professional killer) - but an individual paid or voluntarily killing for someone else with a motive - it's not impossible.

Yes,that's possible.

secrets

01-13-2009, 06:12 PM

1. Who was shot first?
By Hawks, and LE's theory, VR and second TR were shot, and according to Hawk, VR for the last time.
How could we know that? Why not the shooter shoots TR first, and he does that shooting at TR standing by the wall of the house, outside, and that could explain why was TR shot from the front, why he was running to the house, and than why was the last casing inside the house - the shooter went after VR, and shot him second, 5 casings are inside, VR has his goggles on, running for the guns upstairs. By, the way, shooting from the outside, by the house wall, could also explain the hole in the door that goes outside-in, if I understood the photos, and statement correctly.
The shooter could be also shooting from the street, in that case, TR is going back to the car, is shot front, turns around back to the house, and ............same as above.
So, we should not really view as fact that VR was shot first, because that has not been proven and stated as a fact yet.
If anybody wants to dispute this, remember, TR does not have to be dead, for the shooter to go after VR, he only has to be down, than he could be finished of with one or two last bullets, after VR is dead.
2. GSR - I really think it is crazy that we are discussing this, and belive this should be trown out as evidence, but SJ law and order seems stuck in the gutter here, so...
The clothes the boy has were collected the day after. So, he was hugging people, relatives, possibly neighbors, and maybe even LE. Than, he slept at relatives house in a family of avid hunters, left the clothes thrown somewhere, and than picked up by LE bagged together in a bunch, not to mention the warrant.
Come on, badges should be flying here, and what is wrong with the judge (Roca) in SJ?
3. Where was Tiffany?
Come one, she was a hunter, a fisherman (there was a web site where she, her father and VR applied for some kind of reward for fishermen), and etc. I don't know how good shooter she was, but I'm guessing she was better than a boy that just recently was introduced to shooting with guns.
I cannot believe she is not being investigated, if she was, that would have been firmly stated somewhere by LE, and not mumbled up, that all the timing did not checked out or something like that. If her friend "detective" DN did not unquestionably confirmed where she was at all time, something may be wrong here.
She wants kids, VR doesn't. She goes to the doc, has cervical cancer, is not at work. Speaks on the phone with VR, just 30 mins or so before he gets killed. Than she screams something like they were going to have children together..... How come, since she just came from the doctors, and knowing she had the cervical cancer, could she be sure 100% they were going to have kids? And, to say that after VR openly stated that he does not want more kids? And did she not know he does not want more kids since before, after all they were together for about 2 years before they got married?

There is more, but it already is a long post, I will try to add other thoughts later, and hope you will too.

suzanne

01-13-2009, 06:15 PM

No one has said that (except Avila in the interrogation). The casings test results aren't known yet. At least to the public.

Oops. Details beat me to it.

Ok,thank you.I do not like that woman.:angry:

Details

01-13-2009, 06:16 PM

And that's a hard spot. Who benefits the most from Mr.Romans demise? Why would anyone want both these men dead?IMO, someone wanted one of these men dead - and wanted there to be no witnesses. That's what killed the other one (unless this is a burglary situation - in which case they were both killed for being possible witnesses). There are plenty of reasons someone would want one of them dead.

The bar fight might have a few people who would want both of them dead. But I think only one was the target. And there are so many with a motive for one of them.

Details

01-13-2009, 06:20 PM

Nothing in TOS says we have to discuss only evidence that will be admitted or admissible. IMO, the confession is near exculpatory evidence - it shows the boy's initial story, it shows it only changed in the directions the police indicated, shows even when confessing as they direct, he still cannot match the facts of the crime, and it shows the police's bias to having the boy be the killer.

I'd almost think, were this a jury trial, it'd be worth putting up to the jury, by the defense. But, of course, there are those few who don't believe in false confessions - they'll believe they can convince a child that Santa is real - and still not understand false confessions.

Jacobtk

01-13-2009, 06:21 PM

A couple of questions:

when was the crime scene released?

could the gsr on the boys clothing have rubbed off of Tiffinay when she hugged him when she arrived on the scene?

was the boy wearing a jacket at anytime between the murders and the time he removed his clothing?

I do not know the answer to your first and last question. I recall Brewer asking to view the crime scene during the pre-adjudication hearing, but I do not know if it was released. According to the reports, the boy was in the clothing he came home in until he went to his grandparents' home.

As for the middle question, it is entirely possible, indeed probable, that if Tiffany had any gunpowder on her person that it would rub off onto the boy's clothes when she hugged him. However, the problem we have is that we do not know where on his clothing the residue was found. Its location could tell us a lot about whether he was firing a gun or simply standing near one. The other problem is that the residue is difficult to wash out of clothing. So it is possible for the residue that was found to have been deposited at a previous time. Like fingerprints, there is no way to determine when it was deposited, and because the state contends that the boy was an avid hunter, finding it and his fingerprints on a box of bullets proves nothing.

Details

01-13-2009, 06:23 PM

Details

01-13-2009, 06:24 PM

I do not know the answer to your first and last question. I recall Brewer asking to view the crime scene during the pre-adjudication hearing, but I do not know if it was released. According to the reports, the boy was in the clothing he came home in until he went to his grandparents' home.

As for the middle question, it is entirely possible, indeed probable, that if Tiffany had any gunpowder on her person that it would rub off onto the boy's clothes when she hugged him. However, the problem we have is that we do not know where on his clothing the residue was found. Its location could tell us a lot about whether he was firing a gun or simply standing near one. The other problem is that the residue is difficult to wash out of clothing. So it is possible for the residue that was found to have been deposited at a previous time. Like fingerprints, there is no way to determine when it was deposited, and because the state contends that the boy was an avid hunter, finding it and his fingerprints on a box of bullets proves nothing.And we've got less than nothing on this, because the boy's clothes were put together in one bag, allowing cross contamination - who knows where the GSR was initially deposited on those clothes, and which ones.

PensiveOne

01-13-2009, 06:26 PM

:confused:I have a serious thought here. Since the prosecution has taken the "confession" off the table, I was wondering if there might be something in our TOS that might disallow us from talking about it. It seems inappropirate to me that we keep discussing what the boy said during that interview when even the state is saying it won't be part of the evidence.

I propose that we just stop talking about it altogether. It is unfair in so many ways and just speaks volumes about how LE put that out to the media to sway public opinion.

Without the "confession" it would appear to me they have nothing but Tanya's statement about the phone call and GSR on his clothes which is dubious at best. The FBI has stopped using GSR and we all know that he could have easily picked it up from being in contact with the bodies, the real killer or even from playing with his gun earlier (when he shouldn't have been.)

So my other question is: why are they holding this boy again?

mzmary...It is not officially off the table, yet. The judge has not ruled on that yet. There are motions from the defense to throw it out, and a motion from the prosecutors to agree to not use it with strings attached. So until the judge rules on something it is not off the table.

Jacobtk

01-13-2009, 06:28 PM

May I please ask will they be able to tell if all the bullets came from that one particular gun?Can they tell if another gun may have been used also?Why do you think they are getting more ballistics test done?

If and when they actually do a ballistics test (it has not been done yet), it would tell them whether the casings came from the boy's gun. This is done by matching the scratches on the spent casing to the inside of the barrel of the gun. Each gun is unique, so they should have no problem determining if there is a match. If there is not a match, then the state as a problem.

If there is, the next step would be to test the casings for fingerprints. Given that the boy's print was found on a box of bullets, it is possible that the casings have already been tested. It is not very likely that the state would publicize exculpatory evidence, so if no prints were found or another person's prints were found they would not say anything, including withholding that information from the boy's attorney. While technically illegal, it happens quite frequently.

PensiveOne

01-13-2009, 06:31 PM

That is true, I guess. It just seems so wrong to be talking about it. It's out there I guess, so it is fair game for both sides. It is just so upsetting to me. The judge is sitting on this kid, IMO.

:crying:

I agree somewhat, but the judge has a HUGE decision to make and I don't think he will take it lightly. He wants to weigh all of the evidence. I wonder why he won't make decisions on things that are not substantive, like the boy having a picture of his mother or the need for the boy to have therapy. Hence, Mr. Brewer's last two motions. Sad.

Jacobtk

01-13-2009, 06:32 PM

And we've got less than nothing on this, because the boy's clothes were put together in one bag, allowing cross contamination - who knows where the GSR was initially deposited on those clothes, and which ones.

I honestly have to wonder how it is possible that anyone could doing anything that inept. These are mistakes that just ruin the state's case. Someone should suggest that theses officers watch just half a season of Law and Order. Even though the show gets quite a few things wrong, the actors on those shows would probably conduct an better investigation.

Hawk

01-13-2009, 06:33 PM

:confused:I have a serious thought here. Since the prosecution has taken the "confession" off the table, I was wondering if there might be something in our TOS that might disallow us from talking about it. It seems inappropirate to me that we keep discussing what the boy said during that interview when even the state is saying it won't be part of the evidence.

I propose that we just stop talking about it altogether. It is unfair in so many ways and just speaks volumes about how LE put that out to the media to sway public opinion.

Without the "confession" it would appear to me they have nothing but Tanya's statement about the phone call and GSR on his clothes which is dubious at best. The FBI has stopped using GSR and we all know that he could have easily picked it up from being in contact with the bodies, the real killer or even from playing with his gun earlier (when he shouldn't have been.)

So my other question is: why are they holding this boy again?

I can't speak for anyone else, or course, but I reference the interrogation from an evidentiary perspective simply to satisfy personal curiosity as to what actually happened.
I believe most everyone who posts here, myself included, thinks the recording will never be presented to a jury, if it comes to that. Right now, though, the case is in Judge Roca's court and he has already seen it.

Details

01-13-2009, 06:38 PM

I can't speak for anyone else, or course, but I reference the interrogation from an evidentiary perspective simply to satisfy personal curiosity as to what actually happened.
I believe most everyone who posts here, myself included, thinks the recording will never be presented to a jury, if it comes to that. Right now, though, the case is in Judge Roca's court and he has already seen it.I'm pretty sure the prosecution knew it would never be admissible in court, and that's why it was released. After all, initially they were going for trying him as an adult, and that would mean a jury, and thus from a pool that may have seen the confession tape. It's a way to get it out there, when it's totally and completely inadmissible for so many reasons.

And there are those who just don't believe false confessions happen, who still think Stephanie Crowe's brother killed her, because he confessed! That the blood on the transient's shirt came from him dumpster diving where the brother threw out the murder weapon, is the completely hypothetical scenario. It's pretty astonishing. Even when it's a child, even when the police use unethical tactics, even when the confession doesn't match the crime scene, it's as simple as, "They confessed - end of story".

Details

01-13-2009, 06:39 PM

I don't think they are having trial by jury.Doesn't look like it now, but it'd have been a very strong possibility back when they were pushing and talking about trying this child as an adult. And that's when they released the video.

Hawk

01-13-2009, 06:44 PM

I'm pretty sure the prosecution knew it would never be admissible in court, and that's why it was released. After all, initially they were going for trying him as an adult, and that would mean a jury, and thus from a pool that may have seen the confession tape. It's a way to get it out there, when it's totally and completely inadmissible for so many reasons.

And there are those who just don't believe false confessions happen, who still think Stephanie Crowe's brother killed her, because he confessed! That the blood on the transient's shirt came from him dumpster diving where the brother threw out the murder weapon, is the completely hypothetical scenario. It's pretty astonishing. Even when it's a child, even when the police use unethical tactics, even when the confession doesn't match the crime scene, it's as simple as, "They confessed - end of story".

I don't know anything about trials and such. If the boy is convicted, or whatever they call it in juvenile court, can't Mr. Brewer appeal? Would there be a jury then, or are there never juries in juvenile cases?

If there is a jury where do they find a pool of peers for a nine year old?
Down at the playground?

Hawk

01-13-2009, 06:50 PM

Speaking of the confession - Hawk, I'm still hoping to hear what it is you mean when you speak of how the boy's confession matches the crime scene. So far, you haven't provided anything - other than the order in which they were shot - which is something we don't actually know, and came from police prompting.

The boy said he shot his dad first, went downstairs and shot Mr. Romans then went back upstairs and shot his dad again.
The casings U, F, and E verify that to be what the shooter did. They were photographed and collected before the boys interrogation.

Just an observation, nothing more.

Details

01-13-2009, 06:51 PM

I don't know anything about trials and such. If the boy is convicted, or whatever they call it in juvenile court, can't Mr. Brewer appeal? Would there be a jury then, or are there never juries in juvenile cases?

If there is a jury where do they find a pool of peers for a nine year old?
Down at the playground?There is never a jury, IIRC, for juvenile cases. I don't know how appeals work, but no reason there'd be a jury then.

But when this started, they were making a lot of noise about trying the child as an adult. And that would almost certainly have a jury.

Details

01-13-2009, 06:53 PM

The boy said he shot his dad first, went downstairs and shot Mr. Romans then went back upstairs and shot his dad again.
The casings U, F, and E verify that to be what the shooter did.No - they don't. First off - they were shot more than twice - he says only twice. Second, if adapted to multiple shots, it's one scenario that fits - out of many. And the shooter didn't do that - not by the casings being both above and below the father. The shooter went above the father and below. How does that match this?

The casings aren't numbered - you don't know what order the men were shot. Nor do we know the gun, depending on the order of the shots, it could be a single shot, could be something with a magazine like that good old Mossberg.

Perplexed1

01-13-2009, 06:54 PM

They had problems with people at the bar, Mexican Internationals. Tim was having an affair, the Dad/Step Mom fought all the time, Problems with people at work, Drug Dealings, Tim's car was shot at a few months prior, probally other things we don't know as well, there is quit a list of people that had motive. Why LE threw there hands up so soon???? Who knows maybe the Coached Confession, that is something I've been wondering myself.

A volatile situation, to say the least. I think this is why Eryn wanted the little boy, and was coming to visit so often, to check on things. I also think she just hasn't had the funds to fight to get him

Hawk

01-13-2009, 07:01 PM

There is never a jury, IIRC, for juvenile cases. I don't know how appeals work, but no reason there'd be a jury then.

But when this started, they were making a lot of noise about trying the child as an adult. And that would almost certainly have a jury.

Right. Chief Melnick even stated publicly that he wanted the boy charged as an adult. What a nice guy.

But now that it's all up to Judge Roca why does it matter to Mr. Brewer if the interrogation tape (DVD) and 1st search warrant items be inadmissible? I mean if the case doesn't go any further than Apache County court and Judge Roca, and Roca already knows?
Is Judge Roca suppose to pretend that he doesn't know? He can un-ring a bell?

Details

01-13-2009, 07:02 PM

Hawk

01-13-2009, 07:07 PM

I just find it difficult to believe an 8 yr. old child could shoot his dad - see the blood, etc. and not freak out.

Seeing a gun shot victim on television is one thing but real ones....OMG:sad:

Me too. But most of this to hard to believe.

Details

01-13-2009, 07:10 PM

Me too. But most of this to hard to believe.A double murder isn't hard to believe - they happen all the time. Whether as part of a love triangle, jealousy, work conflicts, drug dealing issues, burglary gone wrong, or random killer - this, sadly, is not all that unique, nor hard to believe, of a crime. And they happen with all kinds of weapons - knives, guns, rifles, shotguns, anything that comes to hand. The only unusual aspect is the person that the DA has decided to prosecute, and the limited to nonexistent investigation of the other suspects in this case.

secrets

01-13-2009, 07:12 PM

Right. Chief Melnick even stated publicly that he wanted the boy charged as an adult. What a nice guy.

But now that it's all up to Judge Roca why does it matter to Mr. Brewer if the interrogation tape (DVD) and 1st search warrant items be inadmissible? I mean if the case doesn't go any further than Apache County court and Judge Roca, and Roca already knows?
Is Judge Roca suppose to pretend that he doesn't know? He can un-ring a bell?

Maybe because that way, the case would be most likely dismissed.
Anyway, no matter if it is only the judge or jury, the final decision from the judge could not be based on the confession and the evidence gathered by the 1st warrant, and thus any future complaint due to unfavorable decision from the judge regarding the boy. I believe also because if once dismissed, they could not be used in any future trial, if for example the count one is dismissed without prejudice, and the boy is retried later in the future for that count.
Of course, it is the duty of every advocate to defend his client in every way by law, in every other case that advocate would kiss his future career goodbye.

Jacobtk

01-13-2009, 07:12 PM

I don't know anything about trials and such. If the boy is convicted, or whatever they call it in juvenile court, can't Mr. Brewer appeal? Would there be a jury then, or are there never juries in juvenile cases?

There is never a jury, IIRC, for juvenile cases. I don't know how appeals work, but no reason there'd be a jury then.

But when this started, they were making a lot of noise about trying the child as an adult. And that would almost certainly have a jury.

Judge Roca already stated that there would not be a jury trial. If I recall correctly, he stated this in the hearing following the release of the interrogation video, most likely because of the release contaminated the jury pool. If the there is an appeal, there would not be a jury. It is a set of judges who would decide whether a conviction would be overturned.

Hawk

01-13-2009, 07:14 PM

A double murder isn't hard to believe - they happen all the time. Whether as part of a love triangle, jealousy, work conflicts, drug dealing issues, burglary gone wrong, or random killer - this, sadly, is not all that unique, nor hard to believe, of a crime. And they happen with all kinds of weapons - knives, guns, rifles, shotguns, anything that comes to hand. The only unusual aspect is the person that the DA has decided to prosecute, and the limited to nonexistent investigation of the other suspects in this case.

Well, it's hard for me to believe, anyway.

Hawk

01-13-2009, 07:18 PM

Maybe because that way, the case would be most likely dismissed.
Anyway, no matter if it is only the judge or jury, the final decision from the judge could not be based on the confession and the evidence gathered by the 1st warrant, and thus any future complaint due to unfavorable decision from the judge regarding the boy. I believe also because if once dismissed, they could not be used in any future trial, if for example the count one is dismissed without prejudice, and the boy is retried later in the future for that count.
Of course, it is the duty of every advocate to defend his client in every way by law, in every other case that advocate would kiss his future career goodbye.

Thanks.
So if the 'confession' and all the evidence obtained from the first search warrant are thrown out (which includes the rifle and casings) all they have left is Mrs. Romans testimony?
Of course, he may throw out one and not the other.