Monday, 01/05/09

[Politigal]

on the walkaway theory...

I still have difficulty seeing the *why.*

By all accounts Gricar had no history of mental illness or depression, by all accounts he was looking forward to retirement & traveling, by all accounts he loved his daughter dearly & got along well with his ex-wife Barbara, by all accounts he was looking forward to visiting his nephews, by all accounts he was looking forward to not having to wake up to an alarm clock, so *why* would he simply walk away?

In other cases of walk away there is usually an underlying factor - marital problems, money problems, evading the law, etc.

[gstickley]

I agree totally with your post, Pgal.

RG's being distraught has now morphed into "months"; PF said he'd been tired for the past couple weeks, KA said he'd been "distraught" the week he disappeared, everyone else said he acted normal; he apparently was normal at the PB meeting on 04/14; he was known to take rides by himself.

The famous "disappearance" to the ballgame happened one time: "one time" that he didn't tell anyone where he was going; "one time" when he left to go to a ballgame, FGS; he apparently had no one he needed to answer to at that time. Apparently, he had protocol at his office to follow when he wasn't available. Attempts to turn this "one time" into a habit of such behavior is quite lame; "one time" does not make a habit.

RG has been described as "frugal"; a "frugal" person doesn't walk away from what must have been a substantial retirement package. With only 8 more months to go, less work time using accumulated leave, I don't see a "frugal" man simply walking away from it.

RG has also been described as someone doting on his daughter, who also doted on her father. Unless you're a parent who "dotes" on your child, you would have no idea what devastation would be caused to your child if you just walked away from him/her. A "doting father" would certainly know. A parent would know.

With all the BS that RG had to have encountered in his many years as DA, he only had 8 mo. to go. If he didn't walk away previously, he was now on a downhill slide to retirement. Why walk away at this late date?

Discussions about other "walkaways", if they actually occurred, could be just that: discussions. It's rather suspicious that the one talking about the "walkaway discussion" was reportedly never interviewed by LE. Why the long wait to make this public? Same goes for the "cleaning the hard drive", which supposedly is a "clue" that RG walked away.

Walkaway??? I think not.

Just my opinion, to which I am entitled to have.

[UndertheRadar]

Pgal, GS, Logic, I agree with all that the three of you have said above. Great posts.

GS, I especially agree that WAY too much has been made of any discussion of the Wiley case. I've been fascinated by murderers and serial killers since I was about eight and read about Lizzie Borden in some book I had. Doesn't mean I'd ever kill a human being. Hornets and flies are about as far as I'll go.

I also especially agree that the parent/child bond was too strong between RG and LG for him to simply disappear for selfish purposes. No man who instructs his staff to put his daughter through immediately if she calls or face consequences just disappears on her.

I've mentioned this before but would also add that it's difficult to make the timing work for a YITMAMPW. When did RG start planning this? When he was with EG? When he separated from her? Then why entangle himself in a serious relationship with PF, one that cost him money he could otherwise put into his YITMAMPW Fund?

[SuperKyle]

Happy Monday to all.

Someone leaving can happen for all kinds of reasons that we never know were there until the person is found once again. It just plain happens all of the time.

Nick Fransisco - John Glasgow - Matthew Wilson (everything "seemed fine") - Jon R. Van **** - and the one British man who left (I can't remember his name right now). There are a few articles I will try to find.

I'm not saying that clearly this is a walkaway but, it looks like it definitely could be. If he was showing some depression or was "distraught" then that definitely shows something on his mind. If it was a thought that someone was out to get him, then as I've heard, he was very intelligent and would have taken precautions, such as police protection or whatever, certainly not a ride all alone into the wilderness.

These things just happen

[J. J. in Phila]

They can "just happen." Something was bothering RFG in the 2-5 weeks prior to 4/15/05, or causing him to be preoccupied at least.

The Wiley case is just "another brick in the wall." It is circumstantial evidence that RFG walked away, or at least was planning to, on 4/15/05. All of it, however, is just that, circumstantial.

[UndertheRadar]

Happy Monday to all.

Someone leaving can happen for all kinds of reasons that we never know were there until the person is found once again. It just plain happens all of the time.

Nick Fransisco - John Glasgow - Matthew Wilson (everything "seemed fine") - Jon R. Van **** - and the one British man who left (I can't remember his name right now). There are a few articles I will try to find.

I'm not saying that clearly this is a walkaway but, it looks like it definitely could be. If he was showing some depression or was "distraught" then that definitely shows something on his mind. If it was a thought that someone was out to get him, then as I've heard, he was very intelligent and would have taken precautions, such as police protection or whatever, certainly not a ride all alone into the wilderness.

These things just happen

I think most posters here have allowed for the possibility that some catastrophic event (i.e., a real reason) could potentially have caused RG to walk away from his life, perhaps to spare those he loved from greater suffering if that real reason came crashing down. I don't think many of us here at In Session put this at the top of our list, but I think we allow for the possibility.

OTOH, I believe what many of us object to is the Years In the Making and Meticulously Planned Walkaway Theory (YITMAMPWT) designed to elevate RG to some kind of bizarre hero status, the creation of legendary status for a man who never particularly sought the limelight.

Important to differentiate between the two, IMHO.

[Politigal]

Happy Monday to all.

Someone leaving can happen for all kinds of reasons that we never know were there until the person is found once again. It just plain happens all of the time.

Nick Fransisco - John Glasgow - Matthew Wilson (everything "seemed fine") - Jon R. Van **** - and the one British man who left (I can't remember his name right now). There are a few articles I will try to find.

I'm not saying that clearly this is a walkaway but, it looks like it definitely could be. If he was showing some depression or was "distraught" then that definitely shows something on his mind. If it was a thought that someone was out to get him, then as I've heard, he was very intelligent and would have taken precautions, such as police protection or whatever, certainly not a ride all alone into the wilderness.

These things just happen

In the John Glasgow Little Rock, AR case....it's my opinion that it's a copycat case of Gricar's dilemma. I definitely believe he also met with foul play. And since his car was found some distance from his home, that's where law enforcement centered their investigation. And other similarities - like no fingerprints, etc...make me very suspicious.

Sadly, IMO, too many missing person cases are dismissed as walk-aways. I'm not saying walkaway never occurs, but I would think that it's a very very small percentage of missing persons. And again, I think there is usually some underlying cause for them to do so.

[Politigal]

I thought a lot about the walkaway theory today------- and what about him in those last hours was 'different', indicating the 'switch' from loving, caring partner, father, uncle to the new RG 'off to a new life' CHANGE, had occurred.
IMO, it's didn't.

Beginning with a conversation earlier that day with daughter------ no change.
A walk in the park with the SO--------no change.
Emails back and forth with SPM------- no change.
Plans for upcoming case with SPM-------no change.
Joking back and forth with SPM---------no change.
Going into work for a few hours in the evening, typical for him-------no change.
Leaving work to return home at a reasonable hour to spend time at home-----9pm------no change.

The first indication of 'change' we are informed of is when PF states he rolled over and went back to sleep the next morning. The morning before that he was likely going out the door or already gone by that time, when he went to the prison board meeting. He rolls over and goes to sleep. That's CHANGE

The next indication of 'change' is when NO one in the office received an email from him Friday morning saying he was going to be off work that day. That's CHANGE.

The next indication of 'change' is when the SO arrives and states he's off for the morning. That's CHANGE.

The next indication of 'change' is when the half day off is altered to full day as a result of a phone call. That's CHANGE.

The next indication of 'change' is when he has NO contact with anyone other than the SO all day. That's CHANGE.

The next indication of 'change' is when the SO goes home from work and changes into gym clothes, NOT into out for dinner clothes, their typical Friday evening. That's CHANGE.

The way I see it, ALL of the 'changes' said to have occurred in RG happened after 9:00 PM on Thursday evening. All of them were reports by one other person of a CHANGE in him.

Right up until that last moment when he can actually be accounted for on camera leaving the Courthouse, there is nothing to indicate he had 'CHANGED'. I believe that lack of 'change' prior to 9:00 pm is a very important factor in this case.

I do not believe examples of men who are still missing, with nothing whatsoever that proves they are still alive, can be used to back up the 'walkaway' theory in this case any more than it backs up the theory they walked away in their particular cases. The cases are unsolved and therefore 'walkaway' is unproven. I also do not believe that comparing 'teen walkaway' to a case of a DA who is still missing offers any proof of anything, other than teens sometimes 'walkaway'.
Apples to oranges in both instances, IMO.
JMO

AWESOME Post Logic....

That time frame for the *change* is very troubling.

[J. J. in Phila]

But yet the was a change in RFG's demeanor for 2-5 weeks prior to his disappearance. That's been noted by most everyone.

[UndertheRadar]

Right up until that last moment when he can actually be accounted for on camera leaving the Courthouse, there is nothing to indicate he had 'CHANGED'. I believe that lack of 'change' prior to 9:00 pm is a very important factor in this case.

Even PF says he was "normal" when he got home Thursday night:

VAN SUSTEREN: Was there anything unusual about his behavior the night before?

FORNICOLA: No. No. He seemed normal to me. There was nothing unusual.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,156683,00.html

I do not believe examples of men who are still missing, with nothing whatsoever that proves they are still alive, can be used to back up the 'walkaway' theory in this case any more than it backs up the theory they walked away in their particular cases. The cases are unsolved and therefore 'walkaway' is unproven. I also do not believe that comparing 'teen walkaway' to a case of a DA who is still missing offers any proof of anything, other than teens sometimes 'walkaway'.
Apples to oranges in both instances, IMO.
JMO

Completely agree, especially regarding the teenage (even college age) "walkaways." Ironically in the Song case, LE chose to eliminate walkaway early on, despite college students' tendencies for taking off, based mostly on CS having registered for classes the next semester and having ordered a part for her computer. Plans for "the future"--as if RG had none.

[J. J. in Phila]

Yet we have Shotts, Joesph, and JKA indicating something was wrong, PEF saying he was taking naps, and Wedler saying he looked "depressed."

[sherrijean981]

I thought a lot about the walkaway theory today------- and what about him in those last hours was 'different', indicating the 'switch' from loving, caring partner, father, uncle to the new RG 'off to a new life' CHANGE, had occurred.
IMO, it's didn't.

Beginning with a conversation earlier that day with daughter------ no change.
A walk in the park with the SO--------no change.
Emails back and forth with SPM------- no change.
Plans for upcoming case with SPM-------no change.
Joking back and forth with SPM---------no change.
Going into work for a few hours in the evening, typical for him-------no change.
Leaving work to return home at a reasonable hour to spend time at home-----9pm------no change.

The first indication of 'change' we are informed of is when PF states he rolled over and went back to sleep the next morning. The morning before that he was likely going out the door or already gone by that time, when he went to the prison board meeting. He rolls over and goes to sleep. That's CHANGE

The next indication of 'change' is when NO one in the office received an email from him Friday morning saying he was going to be off work that day. That's CHANGE.

The next indication of 'change' is when the SO arrives and states he's off for the morning. That's CHANGE.

The next indication of 'change' is when the half day off is altered to full day as a result of a phone call. That's CHANGE.

The next indication of 'change' is when he has NO contact with anyone other than the SO all day. That's CHANGE.

The next indication of 'change' is when the SO goes home from work and changes into gym clothes, NOT into out for dinner clothes, their typical Friday evening. That's CHANGE.

The way I see it, ALL of the 'changes' said to have occurred in RG happened after 9:00 PM on Thursday evening. All of them were reports by one other person of a CHANGE in him.

Right up until that last moment when he can actually be accounted for on camera leaving the Courthouse, there is nothing to indicate he had 'CHANGED'. I believe that lack of 'change' prior to 9:00 pm is a very important factor in this case.

I do not believe examples of men who are still missing, with nothing whatsoever that proves they are still alive, can be used to back up the 'walkaway' theory in this case any more than it backs up the theory they walked away in their particular cases. The cases are unsolved and therefore 'walkaway' is unproven. I also do not believe that comparing 'teen walkaway' to a case of a DA who is still missing offers any proof of anything, other than teens sometimes 'walkaway'.
Apples to oranges in both instances, IMO.
JMO


How do you know that PF doesn't go to the gym every Fridays or every day or every other day? As far as I remember no one has seen a schedule of her work outs? Going to the gym right after work doesn't sound like a change to me. She then comes home and showers and then they go out to dinner? They might not go to dinner until 7 or 8pm.

[sherrijean981]

The time frame for any 'change' has always troubled me because I could never find any proof that his actions backed up what was being inferred.

Here are two more 'said changes'-------

'Fornicola told police he had been exhausted lately, taking naps during work, but said yesterday Gricar had not been depressed,'

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05120/496817-156.stm

He is said to be napping during work-----where exactly? at his desk? in court? in the Courthouse parking lot? Why no mention of this by anyone else in the office?

Now the part about his being exhausted------Why is he out taking a walk on Thursday evening and up early to go to a prison board meeting, and working from 6-9, all the same day, if he is exhausted? The exhausted person appears to doing everything that an 'un--exhausted' RG would do.

IF these 'changes' were solely to back up the need to look at his physical records, then I think they cannot be seriously considered on any list of 'changes'. They were a 'means';nothing more, nothing less.------NO CHANGES.
JMO


Whether exhausted or not, RG had a job to do. He did his job the same as always even when exhausted. Maybe he used his lunch time for a nap? Behind closed doors.

I don't find that odd that he was said to be exhausted but still continued his routine. It was his job and he had cases to work, paperwork to do.

I raised 3 children, had health issues and treatments to take, but still continued to work, take my children to their after school activities, cooked, cleaned and took care of others needs. It was my job.

Are men so different? Was RG so different? I think not and it didn't sound like change to me at all. It was a man turning 60 and the long hours of work catching up to him. In other words, he was human!

[SuperKyle]

This is a good thread.

I see here that on the average Friday night PF and Ray would go out together is that right? Is that where he would do the Trivial Pursuit cards and such???

But on this Friday PF goes to the gym instead? Was that normal for her before going to the late dinner,,, if it was late dinner?

[Cloudbuster]

This is a good thread.

I see here that on the average Friday night PF and Ray would go out together is that right? Is that where he would do the Trivial Pursuit cards and such???

But on this Friday PF goes to the gym instead? Was that normal for her before going to the late dinner,,, if it was late dinner?

Fridays PF and RG ate at the Gamble Mill where yes RG played Trival Pursit while waiting for a table. I don't know if it was normal for PF to go to the gym on Fridays though.

[J. J. in Phila]

This is a good thread.

I see here that on the average Friday night PF and Ray would go out together is that right? Is that where he would do the Trivial Pursuit cards and such???

But on this Friday PF goes to the gym instead? Was that normal for her before going to the late dinner,,, if it was late dinner?

I don't know if they had made plans that night, but initially she went home after work and saw that he hadn't returned or left a note. Then she went to the gym.

I suspect that she might have called the cell at that point.

[UndertheRadar]

If this report is accurate, it sounds as if the Friday outing to Gamble Mill was generally an early dinner, not typically a late dinner after a trip to the gym:

For the last couple of Friday afternoons at the dark and historic creekside eatery called Gamble Mill Restaurant, bartenders have kept glancing over at Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar's usual spot at the bar.

"They look over at the little spot he used to sit in," with his girlfriend, Patty Fornicola, playing their weekly game of Trivial Pursuit as he sipped a Grey Goose martini, said the restaurant manager, Andi Heidt-Nixdorf. "When every Friday comes along, they think they're going to see him."

But no one in this Victorian-tinged, mountainside county seat is known to have seen the 59-year-old Gricar - a button-down, lifelong prosecutor looking to retire at year's end - in the last 28 days.

http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/new...s/11635483.htm

[bolding mine]

[J. J. in Phila]

The questions are:

1. Was it a firm date or just something they usually did?

2. Did PEF expect RFG home when she got there? Did she attempt to call him.

[Politigal]

If this report is accurate, it sounds as if the Friday outing to Gamble Mill was generally an early dinner, not typically a late dinner after a trip to the gym:



http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/new...s/11635483.htm

[bolding mine]


It was also reported that when Patty came home and found that Gricar still wasn't there, that she thought he might have stopped somewhere for a bite to eat.

which goes back to the "change" in routine....

[J. J. in Phila]

The "change in routine" was that RFG was not home.

[Serendipitous1]

If this report is accurate, it sounds as if the Friday outing to Gamble Mill was generally an early dinner, not typically a late dinner after a trip to the gym:
http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/new...s/11635483.htmI have often wondered if anyone else posting here is in a relationship. Am I the only one who can recognize the mundane?

[J. J. in Phila]

I have often wondered if anyone else posting here is in a relationship. Am I the only one who can recognize the mundane?


No.

The question is though if was just something they usually did or something they had plans to do that day. There has been no indication that PEF thought was planned for that evening. I would expect, however, that she might have called the cell phone to see what RFG's dinner plans would be.

[Politigal]

Fridays PF and RG ate at the Gamble Mill where yes RG played Trival Pursit while waiting for a table. I don't know if it was normal for PF to go to the gym on Fridays though.

I'm still curious which gym Patty went to.

Curves is listed 4/10 mi from her home at 401 W. High, and the YMCA is also on High St. (where her cousin teaches Aerobics.) And there's another at 116 S. Spring St.

[UndertheRadar]

I have often wondered if anyone else posting here is in a relationship. Am I the only one who can recognize the mundane?

Yes, with habits that have developed over the years, just as in any relationship. That's why had I been in PF's shoes, I almost certainly would have asked whether we were still planning on the Gamble Mill that evening.

But maybe that's just me.

[Cloudbuster]

I'm still curious which gym Patty went to.

Curves is listed 4/10 mi from her home at 401 W. High, and the YMCA is also on High St. (where her cousin teaches Aerobics.) And there's another at 116 S. Spring St.


I have always thought it was the YMCA but I forget why I hold that belief.

[Cloudbuster]

Yes, with habits that have developed over the years, just as in any relationship. That's why had I been in PF's shoes, I almost certainly would have asked whether we were still planning on the Gamble Mill that evening.

But maybe that's just me.

We go out to dinner almost every friday night but there are those times when he gets tired and then I dial 911 pizza. We also go to dinner saturday night. Okay Im a little spoiled but the alternative gets me my way its called my lossy cooking roflmao. Ladies it works.:wink:

[Politigal]

Yes, with habits that have developed over the years, just as in any relationship. That's why had I been in PF's shoes, I almost certainly would have asked whether we were still planning on the Gamble Mill that evening.

But maybe that's just me.

I think most of us are creatures of habit...and for some reason it appears Gricar's & Patty's habits may have changed that Friday in particular.

Gricar reportedly slept late when he usually did not.

Gricar took the day off without contacting the office as he normally would have.

The Gamble Mill dinner apparently wasn't part of their plan for that Friday.

Just "change" or ??

[J. J. in Phila]

I think most of us are creatures of habit...and for some reason it appears Gricar's & Patty's habits may have changed that Friday in particular.

Gricar reportedly slept late when he usually did not.

Gricar took the day off without contacting the office as he normally would have.

The Gamble Mill dinner apparently wasn't part of their plan for that Friday.

Just "change" or ??


First, we have no inkling that RFG that would take "the day off without contacting the office as he normally would have." The day before, he did, and I've heard no information of RFG contacting the office while out. He did arrange for the office to be contacted.

Second, we do have reports that he was tired, so sleeping in on his day off is exactly unusual. I've done that a lot.

Third, I have not seen anything that says that there was some kind of a permanent date for Friday nights.

[Politigal]

I think most of us are creatures of habit...and for some reason it appears Gricar's & Patty's habits may have changed that Friday in particular.

1) Gricar reportedly slept late when he usually did not.

2) Gricar took the day off without contacting the office as he normally would have.

3) The Gamble Mill dinner apparently wasn't part of their plan for that Friday.

Just "change" or ??

Just to add documentation to my comments above ...

1) Tony Gricar previously posted that Gricar was an early riser & didn't usually sleep in.

2) Mark Smith said that Gricar usually called or emailed if he was going to take the day off:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-04-18-penn-da_x.htm

Smith said Gricar would typically have his cell phone with him when he was traveling and would call or e-mail the office if he was going to be late or take the day off.

3) It was reported that going to dinner at the Gamble Mill Inn was an *every* Friday occurrence.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05120/496817-156.stm

"Every Friday, he and Patty would sit right over there," said Barb -- she wouldn't give a last name -- the bartender. "They would play Trivial Pursuit cards."

[sherrijean981]

They can "just happen." Something was bothering RFG in the 2-5 weeks prior to 4/15/05, or causing him to be preoccupied at least.

The Wiley case is just "another brick in the wall." It is circumstantial evidence that RFG walked away, or at least was planning to, on 4/15/05. All of it, however, is just that, circumstantial.


Maybe when the investigation is done by the AG on LM in Bellefonte, his activity will go back as far as 2004/2005. Maybe he was the reason RG was distracted.

If someone was mentioning LM's or another ADA's activity in 2006, it might have finally needed brought to someone in a higher up position. Someone called jka and told her about an ADA with the same problem in 2006.

Is there a chance 2 ADA's were doing the same thing? Was it going on while RG was in the office yet? Was he investigating one of his own and meeting the women involved where the guilty party would not be aware of it? How far back were the emails and phone calls from the DA's office phones or county issued cell phones going on?

Just another side to the mystery.

[J. J. in Phila]

Maybe when the investigation is done by the AG on LM in Bellefonte, his activity will go back as far as 2004/2005. Maybe he was the reason RG was distracted.

If someone was mentioning LM's or another ADA's activity in 2006, it might have finally needed brought to someone in a higher up position. Someone called jka and told her about an ADA with the same problem in 2006.

Is there a chance 2 ADA's were doing the same thing? Was it going on while RG was in the office yet? Was he investigating one of his own and meeting the women involved where the guilty party would not be aware of it? How far back were the emails and phone calls from the DA's office phones or county issued cell phones going on?

Just another side to the mystery.

The LM investigation just started and was in regard to something from December 2008.

Is it possible that there was some problem with a staff member? It's possible. It might have been some other type of problem. "jka" posted that there were questions about another staffer.

[J. J. in Phila]

There was a lot more pressure in the Grove case, probably from all sides, to make a comparison.