Jan. 2nd

[wolfi_2]

just want to start a new threat, well, this is great site, the only thing I really don´t like, is the always changing threat address.

[Crispy]

Woo Hoo!! We are back home! :biggrin:

[Hawk]

After reading through the available reports I don't see one mention of the back door of the residence.
Was it locked when the cops arrived?
The boy said he didn't use it because it's always locked. Seems to me it's a very important part of the investigation. Yet LE didn't note it.

[Hawk]

Another thing. What good is the 911 call transcript when it doesn't have a time of transmission/received recorded? I think these calls are partly, if not fully, funded by the Federal government and it's mandated that these calls be time stamped. It seems amateurish for St. Johns PD to have released this transcript without the activity times stated.

[suzanne]

Another thing. What good is the 911 call transcript when it doesn't have a time of transmission/received recorded? I think these calls are partly, if not fully, funded by the Federal government and it's mandated that these calls be time stamped. It seems amateurish for St. Johns PD to have released this transcript without the activity times stated.

I agree with you.

[Hawk]

Tanya Romans Witness Statement has no witness information whatsoever except her name, statement, and signature. Not even a date/time.
The info isn't blacked out, which would be understandable for public release, it appears she never filled it out, nor did SGT. Rodriguez ask for it.
That would be unacceptable in most jurisdictions. The cops here in my county are taught to 'go by the book', or pay dearly. Especially in regards to reports that will go to court. (And the public record).

It appears that Apache County, AZ simply 'makes it up as they go'. Now, and, historically.

[bkwits]

After reading through the available reports I don't see one mention of the back door of the residence.
Was it locked when the cops arrived?
The boy said he didn't use it because it's always locked. Seems to me it's a very important part of the investigation. Yet LE didn't note it.

You know, I wondered about the doors early on. I think that maybe the front door was left unlocked, since he mentions that the back door is always locked. They didn't ask the boy that. At least not on record.

[Hawk]

Why did Mrs. Romans ask her husband, "Who's that", when referring to the child's voice (she said 'little boy') she claims to have heard? She later told LE that she could recognize the boys voice from having met him (once) previously.
Then she claims to have asked her husband, "What did he say"?
Would she not have known what he said had she actually heard the voice? Why ask?

Please read her report. Does it sound sincere to you?

[Hawk]

You know, I wondered about the doors early on. I think that maybe the front door was left unlocked, since he mentions that the back door is always locked. They didn't ask the boy that. At least not on record.

Right. If it is a regular door lock in the knob that can be engaged from the inside when existing to the outside, then it isn't so important.
However, if it's a dead bolt, not keyed but levered, it means someone could enter the front door, exit the back door, and the dead bolt would be unlocked. Even if the doorknob lock in engaged.

The boy said he saw someone enter the front door but didn't see the person exit. If that's true, and the dead bolt was turned from the inside (if there is one) it could explain a lot. The shooter(s) could have ran out the back, jumped in a white car missing the rear hubcaps, and be gone. It ain't like the neighbors were watching.

I haven't read any information about this. But then again, it's Apache County AZ.

Just a thought.

[Hawk]

You know, I wondered about the doors early on. I think that maybe the front door was left unlocked, since he mentions that the back door is always locked. They didn't ask the boy that. At least not on record.

They didn't ask him either because they didn't think to, or because 'They already had their man' and didn't want to confuse matters with substantial, relevant, get to the truth questions.

But then again, its Apache County AZ.

[Justice_Dawg]

Why did Mrs. Romans ask her husband, "Who's that", when referring to the child's voice (she said 'little boy') she claims to have heard? She later told LE that she could recognize the boys voice from having met him (once) previously.
Then she claims to have asked her husband, "What did he say"?
Would she not have known what he said had she actually heard the voice? Why ask?

Please read her report. Does it sound sincere to you?

It reads like a lie. Just as it is.

[Justice_Dawg]

You know, I wondered about the doors early on. I think that maybe the front door was left unlocked, since he mentions that the back door is always locked. They didn't ask the boy that. At least not on record.

Bet Tiffany could get in and out of it. :wink:

[Hawk]

It reads like a lie. Just as it is.

Well! There is still life on this board!


Go Falcons!

[Hawk]

Bet Tiffany could get in and out of it. :wink:

I meant the drug dealers/gang members in the white car. Tiffany couldn't have pulled this off in million years. Neither could have Mrs. Romans. Directly, anyway.

[Justice_Dawg]

I meant the drug dealers/gang members in the white car. Tiffany couldn't have pulled this off in million years. Neither could have Mrs. Romans. Directly, anyway.

Why couldn't Tiffany?

[Justice_Dawg]

Well! There is still life on this board!


Go Falcons!

Falcon's got a wildcard too eh? :thumbsup:

[shelby77]

Why did Mrs. Romans ask her husband, "Who's that", when referring to the child's voice (she said 'little boy') she claims to have heard? She later told LE that she could recognize the boys voice from having met him (once) previously.
Then she claims to have asked her husband, "What did he say"?
Would she not have known what he said had she actually heard the voice? Why ask?

Please read her report. Does it sound sincere to you?

Those same things occured to me while reading it also, along with the fact that the entire report is half a** filled out, their key piece of evidence indicating the boys presence at the crime scene, you'd think someone would at least go to the trouble in ensuring all the i's were dotted and t's were crossed so to speak. What a joke.
Then again if you look into the Joel Barr story and start to poke around the characters over in Apache County, it's not surprising, but it certainly is appalling! It seems to me they all play by their own rule book over, justice be damned. What a shame. They lost all credibility when it comes to me thats for sure.

[Hawk]

Why couldn't Tiffany?

She, or Mrs. Romans, didn't have the opportunity according to the timeline evidence. Or the stomach for it, in my opinion.

These murders are so horrific, and overdone, that the killer(s) was doing one of three things;

Enjoying the kill.
Hated the victims so much he/she took the last head shots for vengeance.
Were afraid for their life should the victims jump up and get them (as a child would).

This thing would not have been pretty to watch. The shootings took time.
The victims didn't just lay down voluntarily and die. There probably would have been vocal cries, maybe loud, perhaps involuntarily, and a lot of after shot body movement, even if slight quivers. Or even after death nerve movement.
Tremendous blood flow after the head shots would have been visually devastating and probably stopped an average angered human.
Immediate remorse, or fear, would have forced them to seek a safe place.
Yet the shooter fired again. Then again. Then again. Then again. Then again.

These are hateful murders that turn the stomach of American society. This kind of killing requires a special kind of killer.
One that runs out of bullets.

[bkwits]

She, or Mrs. Romans, didn't have the opportunity according to the timeline evidence. Or the stomach for it, in my opinion.

These murders are so horrific, and overdone, that the killer(s) was doing one of three things;

Enjoying the kill.
Hated the victims so much he/she took the last head shots for vengeance.
Were afraid for their life should the victims jump up and get them (as a child would).

This thing would not have been pretty to watch. The shootings took time.
The victims didn't just lay down voluntarily and die. There probably would have been vocal cries, maybe loud, perhaps involuntarily, and a lot of after shot body movement, even if slight quivers. Or even after death nerve movement.
Tremendous blood flow after the head shots would have been visually devastating and probably stopped an average angered human.
Immediate remorse, or fear, would have forced them to seek a safe place.
Yet the shooter fired again. Then again. Then again. Then again. Then again.

These are hateful murders that turn the stomach of American society. This kind of killing requires a special kind of killer.
One that runs out of bullets.

I wonder how Tanya didn't hear the shots, the cries of Vincent, but heard and recognized the boy's voice.

[Hawk]

I wonder how Tanya didn't hear the shots, the cries of Vincent, but heard and recognized the boy's voice.

Mrs. Romans didn't hear the shots, so she claims, but her husband may have. Maybe he didn't tell her so not to worry her.

[muska]

Where is Tanya Romans' witness statement? Is that at the Child's Voice MySpace page? I've had parents in from out of town and kids home from school and college. I've been trying to keep up with the reading but haven't managed much more than that. How about the newer police interviews? They're at Child's Voice, right? Thanks a lot!!!

[Hawk]

Here's the deal;

Had a Mexican gang, or an irate Navajo, done the deed they would have used a 12 gauge shot gun, or at least a suppressor Ruger .22 then picked up the empty casings. The killings would have taken about 4 seconds each, with two/three head shots to both victims. They would not have done it at Romeros home and blamed it on the boy.
Why would they? One group is illegal anyway. Mexico ain't that far away.
They would have done the deed anywhere that was convenient to them (on the dirt road toward town or the lonesome bar they hung out in). A safe place. Under darkness. Romeros residence would not have been.

If either Mrs. Romero or Mrs. Romans wanted to do the deed and planned it, where is the evidence for that?

[Hawk]

Where is Tanya Romans' witness statement? Is that at the Child's Voice MySpace page? I've had parents in from out of town and kids home from school and college. I've been trying to keep up with the reading but haven't managed much more than that. How about the newer police interviews? They're at Child's Voice, right? Thanks a lot!!!

It's at the bottom of Mr. Hogel's statements.

[muska]

It's at the bottom of Mr. Hogel's statements.


Sorry, but I don't know where Hogel's statement is. I see listings for Womack and Jones at Child's Voice but not Hogel. Can you (or anyone who's here reading right now) let me know where to find it? Thanks!!

[Hawk]

The truth will be one day be told that the boy did it. Alone. Hatred. Revenge. Depression. Skillful execution.
History will say he was the most notorious shooter of the early 21th century.

His case will be studied for years to come. I hope the historians will be able to tell us why he did it.

It is an amazing story. Both from the heart and from lucky circumstance.

[Hawk]

I'm looking for naysayers. Are there any?

[bkwits]

The truth will be one day be told that the boy did it. Alone. Hatred. Revenge. Depression. Skillful execution.
History will say he was the most notorious shooter of the early 21th century.

His case will be studied for years to come. I hope the historians will be able to tell us why he did it.

It is an amazing story. Both from the heart and from lucky circumstance.


Well, I've never said for certain that the child did NOT do it, but I am far from convinced that he did.

All criminals are not smart. In fact, most are not smart. I've not yet seen anything that points to the boy except that he was around there.

To me, the confession points more towards innocence than guilt, but there are other factors that are troubling.

Remember, we have not seen any evidence yet. There is undoubtedly some unknown factor at work in this case. IMO

[Details]

I'm looking for naysayers. Are there any?You've been on these threads long enough, I believe, to know exactly how many naysayers there are, and a plain unsubstantiated statement isn't really much worth a response, from me.

Hatred and revenge - sounds like emotions generated by marital difficulties, thugs, and custody disputes. Hardly like an 8 year old boy that no one saw any isssues with.

[Hawk]

Well, I've never said for certain that the child did NOT do it, but I am far from convinced that he did.

All criminals are not smart. In fact, most are not smart. I've not yet seen anything that points to the boy except that he was around there.

To me, the confession points more towards innocence than guilt, but there are other factors that are troubling.

Remember, we have not seen any evidence yet. There is undoubtedly some unknown factor at work in this case. IMO

The evidence that has been released not only points to the boy but validates his confession.

[Hawk]

You've been on these threads long enough, I believe, to know exactly how many naysayers there are, and a plain unsubstantiated statement isn't really much worth a response, from me.

Most often among jurors (which of course we aren't) unsubstantiated is subjective.

[Hawk]

You've been on these threads long enough, I believe, to know exactly how many naysayers there are, and a plain unsubstantiated statement isn't really much worth a response, from me.

Hatred and revenge - sounds like emotions generated by marital difficulties, thugs, and custody disputes. Hardly like an 8 year old boy that no one saw any isssues with.

You don't kill a human being for no reason. Emotion is the biggest killer in the world!

[Details]

The evidence that has been released not only points to the boy but validates his confession.How is his confession validated? Not a detail from it is true. The two men were not shot two times, nor was the father shot in the chest, nor was the gun placed in the closet.

[Details]

You don't kill a human being for no reason. Emotion is the biggest killer in the world!And these two men, Tim in particular, had plenty of people with more than enough reason to be "emotional" towards them. How many murders are committed when a husband cheats on a wife? Out of outrage over a upcoming divorce? Due to custody battles? Due to finding out that you're just the other woman? Due to drug deals? Due to fights at work or in bars?

[Hawk]

How is his confession validated? Not a detail from it is true. The two men were not shot two times, nor was the father shot in the chest, nor was the gun placed in the closet.

The confession validates the evidence.

[wolfi_2]

Hawk, I’m just amused how you act nearly alone on this threat the whole night.:smile:
-I don’t see the hate factor in this (for the boy), he should had have a good relationship with his dad. And I really don’t see how he should do the shootings if they where so horrible as you stated, without being afraid after the first shoot’s. I still see no reason for the boy doing that.

[Hawk]

I’m just amused how you act nearly alone on this threat the whole night.:smile:
-I don’t see the hate factor in this (for the boy), he should had have a good relationship with his dad. And I really don’t see how he should do the shootings if they where so horrible as you stated, without being afraid after the first shoot’s. I still see no reason for the boy doing that.

Okay.
Then who did the murders?
And how?

[wolfi_2]

Okay.
Then who did the murders?
And how?


I don´t know, but I think it wasn´t the boy.

[Details]

The confession validates the evidence.I provided the exact ways in which it does not. You provided a blank meaningless empty assertion. I think that's my answer.

[Hawk]

I don´t know, but I think it wasn´t the boy.

Well. These men did not commit suicide! What happened?

[Details]

Hawk, I’m just amused how you act nearly alone on this threat the whole night.:smile:
-I don’t see the hate factor in this (for the boy), he should had have a good relationship with his dad. And I really don’t see how he should do the shootings if they where so horrible as you stated, without being afraid after the first shoot’s. I still see no reason for the boy doing that.The neighbors, those who knew the family, saw them day by day, saw a good relationship, and a good boy.

On the other hand - the bullet hole in Tim's truck due to a bar fight, his criminal record, his current relationships with a wife and a girlfriend - all of these provide many people with reason to hate.

[Details]

Well. These men did not commit suicide! What happened?Your only two choices are an 8 year old child, or suicide? :lol:


Read the newspapers - there are many other causes of death.

[Hawk]

I provided the exact ways in which it does not. You provided a blank meaningless empty assertion. I think that's my answer.

Evidence! It isn't meaningless. How do you think courts work?

[Details]

Evidence! It isn't meaningless. How do you think courts work?Your post lacks any evidence. Anyone who looks at the evidence can see that it does not match the confession, in even the most simple details - where and how many times the men were shot, where the gun was.

That's the evidence.

[Hawk]

Your post lacks any evidence. Anyone who looks at the evidence can see that it does not match the confession, in even the most simple details - where and how many times the men were shot, where the gun was.

That's the evidence.


You haven't looked close enough, nor drawn a diagram according to the casings. The evidence is clear. It matches the confession perfectly.

[JD1974]

It reads like a lie. Just as it is.


What did I miss?? Tanya's statement is out somewhere?

[bkwits]

I provided the exact ways in which it does not. You provided a blank meaningless empty assertion. I think that's my answer.

Thank you for expressing my thought better than I could.

It's a sophmoric attempt to repeat some baseless statement enough times that it may grow up to be a fact. :thumbsup:

[bkwits]

You haven't looked close enough, nor drawn a diagram according to the casings. The evidence is clear. It matches the confession perfectly.

Did someone confess?

[Details]

You haven't looked close enough, nor drawn a diagram according to the casings. The evidence is clear. It matches the confession perfectly.Really? You count only two casings by each body?

And the boy did know where the bodies were - that's not news, nor evidence - he found them.

[Justice_Dawg]

The neighbors, those who knew the family, saw them day by day, saw a good relationship, and a good boy.

On the other hand - the bullet hole in Tim's truck due to a bar fight, his criminal record, his current relationships with a wife and a girlfriend - all of these provide many people with reason to hate.

They are the makings of reasonable doubt!

[Hawk]

They are the makings of reasonable doubt!

All right then!

The boy killed these two men and doesn't deserve any punishment? All the evidence is against him.

[Justice_Dawg]

All right then!

The boy killed these two men and doesn't deserve ant punishment.


Come on Hawk, I do this for a living. This was clearly a hit.

[wolfi_2]

thanks', I didn't know that my English is that good that you think I´m from the UK, but I´m German. Beat back is always OK, that´s why it´s a discussion's forum.:smile:

[Justice_Dawg]

Evidence! It isn't meaningless. How do you think courts work?

I know exactly how the government works.

[Hawk]

thanks', I didn't know that my English is that good that you think I´m from the UK, but I´m German. Beat back is always OK, that´s why it´s a discussion's forum.:smile:

Sorry. I just meant from your tone that maybe you don't understand American justice. Or natural USA logic.

[bkwits]

Reason and logic is beyond your grasp!

Hell, I'm on the boys side, too.

I just want to know what happened. (Won't take back my bloody post).

Yes. The boy.

I also want to know what happened. Just because I don't see things as you do (after your revelation or whatever) doesn't mean that I lack logic.

The so-called confession is neither reasonable nor logical. IMO, it does not match the crime scene. Again, IMO, the so-called confession points more to innocence than guilt. That being said, I think he may have done it, but it seems unlikely.

My issue is more the trampling of the child's civil rights and lack of justice afforded to him, whether he did it or not.

[shelby77]

How about the fact that the boy made a statement to his grandmother the night of the murders about his father being shot in the chest?! I thought it pretty indicative of his guilt at the time, assuming it to be true how would he have known? Only to find out there was NO shot to VR's chest....but it must have appeared so to the boy as he looked at his father lying face down...
For those who believe so strongly in his guilt, how do you explain that? Do you think he was clever enough as to put out misinformation about the crime to deflect guilt from himself, HA, we know that's not it, so what is it then?? Any takers on that one...

[Hawk]

I know exactly how the government works.

Well then! You are the first and only AMERICAN in our history that does!

Congratulations!

[Hawk]

How about the fact that the boy made a statement to his grandmother the night of the murders about his father being shot in the chest?! I thought it pretty indicative of his guilt at the time, assuming it to be true how would he have known? Only to find out there was NO shot to VR's chest....but it must have appeared so to the boy as he looked at his father lying face down...
For those who believe so strongly in his guilt, how do you explain that? Do you think he was clever enough as to put out misinformation about the crime to deflect guilt from himself, HA, we know that's not it, so what is it then?? Any takers on that one...

When Mr. Romero was shot in the left arm (which was a thur shot and hit his ribs) he may well have grasped his chest making the boy think that that was were the shot hit.

[Details]

"may" isn't evidence.

[Details]

All right then!

The boy killed these two men and doesn't deserve any punishment? All the evidence is against him.What evidence. No ballistics. No fingerprints. No witnesses. No forensics at all.

A highly illegal on many counts confession with all the earnmarks of a false confession, plus a statement from a major suspect - that's it.

[Hawk]

"may" isn't evidence.

No, but the court evidence is.

[bkwits]

thanks', I didn't know that my English is that good that you think I´m from the UK, but I´m German. Beat back is always OK, that´s why it´s a discussion's forum.:smile:

Your English is fine. I understand you perfectly. :smile:

[Justice_Dawg]

No, but the court evidence is.

Haven't seen any yet.

Are you talking to the enemy? :cursing:

[Hawk]

Haven't seen any yet.

Are you talking to the enemy? :cursing:

No! The boy did these killings. There is no way around it.

The argument, or discussion, should be about what to do to and with him.

[bkwits]

No! The boy did these killings. There is no way around it.

The argument, or discussion, should be about what to do to and with him.

You are ready to hang him when a few days ago you didn't think he did it.

[Justice_Dawg]

No! The boy did these killings. There is no way around it.

The argument, or discussion, should be about what to do to and with him.

Yeah, he had such reason to kill Tim. From what I know Tim went out everynight. Stepmom and dad did the whacks. Why not wait till Tim was out and go in the parents bedroom and off them?

[Hawk]

All casing from any rifle pop to the right. Big deal. You can rig any .22 rifle to hold more than one bullet. Mexican Mafia sells them modified all the time. :tonguewag:

Casings from a right hand rifle eject to the right. There are very rare left hand rifles that will eject to the left. The boys rifle is a standard right hand rifle. He is also right handed (see the video).

[shelby77]

When Mr. Romero was shot in the left arm (which was a thur shot and hit his ribs) he may well have grasped his chest making the boy think that that was were the shot hit.

I'm no expert, but I just assumed if the shooter was as close to him as it appears he was, it such a narrow stairwell, from BEHIND, as I take all the information we've been given, it would be pretty obvious that he did not shoot in his victim in the chest. Makes sense to me.

[bkwits]

I think he's been nippin' too. :lol:


Wellll. You said that not me. :w00t:

[Justice_Dawg]

Sorry. I just meant from your tone that maybe you don't understand American justice. Or natural USA logic.

He is just fine! The USA has NO logic!

[Hawk]

You are ready to hang him when a few days ago you didn't think he did it.

From my pea brain I have seen the boy, according to the evidence, purposely killing his dad. Mr. Romans is still a question. Although he said he shot him too.
If the boy did the deed he is still a child and should not be held accountable. The whys and the ifs will come along in due time. The boy needs treatment. Not jail.

[Justice_Dawg]

From my pea brain I have seen the boy, according to the evidence, purposely killing his dad. Mr. Romans is still a question. Although he said he shot him too.
If the boy did the deed he is still a child and should not be held accountable. The whys and the ifs will come along in due time. The boy needs treatment. Not jail.

Treatment from the trama of seeing his father and friend dead, yes, he does.

[Hawk]

He is just fine! The USA has NO logic!

Easy now. Our Troops are included in any USA comment.

[wolfi_2]

Sorry. I just meant from your tone that maybe you don't understand American justice. Or natural USA logic.



I will say, yes there is a lot, that point to the boy, but also and that´s may point of view, a lot into the other direction. My opinion is that the boy must have a reason to do the shooting´s -and I don´t see any reason in the moment. If he do it, there must have been something very terrible going on in this house and nobody take notice . I don´t know how US American justice is working but I think there isn´t much different between our and the US justice, I only noticed that in the US, it´s very punitive specially against children. As I stated a few threat´s ago, I think in Germany, this case would be always closed if the boy do it, because we don´t try children in court below 14. So in this case the boy could be ask by a specialist without fear to say anything wrong that can be used against him.

[Justice_Dawg]

Easy now. Our Troops are included in any USA comment.

You don't want to know what I have to say about Bush.

[Justice_Dawg]

Wellll. You said that not me. :w00t:

Have you ever known me to hold anything back? :biggrin:

[Hawk]

You don't want to know what I have to say about Bush.

Good grief! Our troop involvement will continue under the incoming administration.
Be still. WE WILL NOT LOSE IN IRAQ! Regardless of who is in the WhiteHouse.

This case has nothing to to with that anyway.

[bkwits]

You don't want to know what I have to say about Bush.

Oh please, only 18 more days.

[ChanginWinds]

Sorry. I just meant from your tone that maybe you don't understand American justice. Or natural USA logic.

I'm guessin' from yer tone that yer from the REAL AMERICA!!! USA USA USA!!!

[muska]

I will say, yes there is a lot, that point to the boy, but also and that´s may point of view, a lot into the other direction. My opinion is that the boy must have a reason to do the shooting´s -and I don´t see any reason in the moment. If he do it, there must have been something very terrible going on in this house and nobody take notice . I don´t know how US American justice is working but I think there isn´t much different between our and the US justice, I only noticed that in the US, it´s very punitive specially against children. As I stated a few threat´s ago, I think in Germany, this case would be always closed if the boy do it, because we don´t try children in court below 14. So in this case the boy could be ask by a specialist without fear to say anything wrong that can be used against him.

That makes so much more sense. If we had that here, the boy would have talked to some kind of counselor by now, it would already be determined whether he did this or not, and he'd be receiving therapy.The point should be to help elementary school children, not blame and incarcerate.

[Justice_Dawg]

Good grief! Our troop involvement will continue under the incoming administration.
Be still. WE WILL NOT LOSE IN IRAQ! Regardless of who is in the WhiteHouse.

This case has nothing to to with that anyway.

We should have never been there. Subject over. :tonguewag:

[Hawk]

I'm guessin' from yer tone that yer from the REAL AMERICA!!! USA USA USA!!!

Is this a board I missed?

Obama and McCain are both bull**** assholes like all politicians.
If you think your life is going to be better you've a fool.

Can we get back to the case?

[bookie]

There are any number of possibilities that don't include the boy being the murderer. Tim was shot more than Romero so it looks like he was the target. He was cheating on his wife. Tanya could have found out and had someone kill her husband. Someone from Candy's life could have been mad about his treatment of her and killed the men. It could have been a drug deal gone bad. Shoot...maybe they cut someone off on the way home, were followed and killed in a road rage incident by a person/s in a white car.

The boy's "confession" doesn't fit the crime scene. Before being lied to by the police who started the interview off by saying no one in the room could lie the boy repeatedly said he didn't know what happened. It wasn't until after the lies by Neckels and Avila that he said he shot the men 2 and 4 times less than they had actually been shot.

[shelby77]

Yes let's please get back to the case. I'm still waiting to find out how the shooter, coming from behind, would mistake an arm wound for a chest wound....
I'm not saying I believe he didn't do it, I'm still kinda undecided over here, there's a few lingering things that just don't fit for me, aside from the joke of a confession. So convince me...

[muska]

From Wikipedia -

Innocent until proven guilty is a legal right. The burden of proof is on prosecution which has to collect and present enough compelling evidence to convince the judge and jury who are restrained and ordered by law to consider only actual evidence and testimony that is legally admissable, and in most cases lawfully obtained, that the accused is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. In case of remaining doubt, the accused is acquitted.


Reasonable doubt......

[Hawk]

That makes so much more sense. If we had that here, the boy would have talked to some kind of counselor by now, it would already be determined whether he did this or not, and he'd be receiving therapy.The point should be to help elementary school children, not blame and incarcerate.

Germany has contributed so much to human equality and justice in the past century America should follow their lead. I don't think so.

[ChanginWinds]

Is this a board I missed?

Obama and McCain are both bull**** assholes like all politicians.
If you think your life is going to be better you've a fool.

Can we get back to the case?

Ya know, since ya brung up the subject 'a logic, I really wanna know how USA logic differs from UK logic. If ya'd rather, jus PM me :mellow:

[bkwits]

There are any number of possibilities that don't include the boy being the murderer. Tim was shot more than Romero so it looks like he was the target. He was cheating on his wife. Tanya could have found out and had someone kill her husband. Someone from Candy's life could have been mad about his treatment of her and killed the men. It could have been a drug deal gone bad. Shoot...maybe they cut someone off on the way home, were followed and killed in a road rage incident by a person/s in a white car.

The boy's "confession" doesn't fit the crime scene. Before being lied to by the police who started the interview off by saying no one in the room could lie the boy repeatedly said he didn't know what happened. It wasn't until after the lies by Neckels and Avila that he said he shot the men 2 and 4 times less than they had actually been shot.

Don't forget the crazy boyfriend of the other woman Tim slept with. Misti was her name, I think.

[Hawk]

From Wikipedia -

Innocent until proven guilty is a legal right. The burden of proof is on prosecution which has to collect and present enough compelling evidence to convince the judge and jury who are restrained and ordered by law to consider only actual evidence and testimony that is legally admissable, and in most cases lawfully obtained, that the accused is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. In case of remaining doubt, the accused is acquitted.


Reasonable doubt......

Doesn't look like there will be a jury. It's all on Judge Roca.

[muska]

Germany has contributed so much to human equality and justice in the past century America should follow their lead. I don't think so.


Sounds like a good idea regarding this particular issue.

[wolfi_2]

From Wikipedia -

Innocent until proven guilty is a legal right. The burden of proof is on prosecution which has to collect and present enough compelling evidence to convince the judge and jury who are restrained and ordered by law to consider only actual evidence and testimony that is legally admissable, and in most cases lawfully obtained, that the accused is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. In case of remaining doubt, the accused is acquitted.


Reasonable doubt......

In dubio pro reo -or In the doubt for the accused

[Hawk]

Ya know, since ya brung up the subject 'a logic, I really wanna know how USA logic differs from UK logic. If ya'd rather, jus PM me :mellow:


We broke ties long ago. The freedoms we have, so far, surpass those of the UK. You are self-imploding.

[bkwits]

Yes let's please get back to the case. I'm still waiting to find out how the shooter, coming from behind, would mistake an arm wound for a chest wound....
I'm not saying I believe he didn't do it, I'm still kinda undecided over here, there's a few lingering things that just don't fit for me, aside from the joke of a confession. So convince me...

Yes, me too.

[Justice_Dawg]

Yes let's please get back to the case. I'm still waiting to find out how the shooter, coming from behind, would mistake an arm wound for a chest wound....
I'm not saying I believe he didn't do it, I'm still kinda undecided over here, there's a few lingering things that just don't fit for me, aside from the joke of a confession. So convince me...


Sorry, I don't have anything.

[shelby77]

Sorry, I don't have anything.

Don't apologize, I was just giving the opportunity to debate what I believe to be a valid lead towards the boys innocence. Some are convinced he did it, I would just like them to explain this piece of reasonable doubt to me..apparently it's not so easily explained lol..

[Hawk]

Sorry, I don't have anything.


When the arm wound was made to Mr. Romero and traveled through his arm then hit a left rib causing Mr. Romero to grasp his chest the boy may well have thought that he'd made a chest hit.

[wolfi_2]

Germany has contributed so much to human equality and justice in the past century America should follow their lead. I don't think so.

Our system is based mostly on the US system -since 1945. And by the way, I´m not against the US, I visit your country sometimes during my last job and private also.

[shelby77]

From BEHIND!! How would he mistake that, it's just not reasonable to me if the shooter was behind, that he would mistake an arm wound for a chest wound. Makes no sense.

[Hawk]

From BEHIND!! How would he mistake that, it's just not reasonable to me if the shooter was behind, that he would mistake an arm wound for a chest wound. Makes no sense.

No one has said, in evidence, that Mr. Romero was shot from behind.

[Hawk]

Our system is based mostly on the US system -since 1945. And by the way, I´m not against the US, I visit your country sometimes during my last job and private also.


I apologize. God bless you and your country!

[shelby77]

Well that was certainly how I perceived it. How bout everyone else, am I the only one who is under the impression the shooter was below VR in the stairway initially...for some reason I thought that was already established :confused:

[Hawk]

Well that was certainly how I perceived it. How bout everyone else, am I the only one who is under the impression the shooter was below VR in the stairway initially...for some reason I thought that was already established :confused:


The shooter was on the 2nd floor. His safest place. He waited until the victim was on the 3rd step of the 2nd landing, then shot him. Twice. He then went down the stairs to shot the second victim.

[wolfi_2]

I apologize. God bless you and your country!

you´re welcome, and dito .

[shelby77]

The shooter was on the 2nd floor. His safest place. He waited until the victim was on the 3rd step of the 2nd landing, then shot him. Twice. He then went down the stairs to shot the second victim.


Well I'm going to go back and re-read the docs and see if I can find something that definitively says where the bullets entered VR...

[Hawk]

you´re welcome, and dito .

This case is pretty emotional to many of us (like you couldn't tell). This murder has so many implications to daily life most of us don't realize the significance.

[Hawk]

Well I'm going to go back and re-read the docs and see if I can find something that definitively says where the bullets entered VR...

Yes, please do. Then let us know what you think. I believe the evidence is overwhelming against the boy.
Please prove me wrong!

[wolfi_2]

This case is pretty emotional to many of us (like you couldn't tell). This murder has so many implications to daily life most of us don't realize the significance.


that´s correct, I was so upset, if I read about this case in November in a German newspaper that an 8 year old boy should be tried as adult, you can´t imagine. I didn´t know it before, that children can be tried as adult in the US.

[muska]

Well that was certainly how I perceived it. How bout everyone else, am I the only one who is under the impression the shooter was below VR in the stairway initially...for some reason I thought that was already established :confused:

Arizona senior forensic pathologist, Keen, said the shape of the wound on Romero's back may suggest the assailant was slightly to the right and BELOW Romero. Romero was facedown. That would place the gunman at the bottom of the stairs.

A hole in the front of VR's helmet is also mentioned suggesting he may also have been hit from in front, but the shot from in front would have been to the head...as far as this report goes.

Channel 15, Story regarding autopsy results

[shelby77]

The shooter was on the 2nd floor. His safest place. He waited until the victim was on the 3rd step of the 2nd landing, then shot him. Twice. He then went down the stairs to shot the second victim.

Well this here from Guinn's report disputes at least that 2 of the non-head shots were from the front, which would lead me to believe that both of the 2 shots were from behind, not counting the head shots. Otherwise you have the shooter going from the hallway in front of VR, to shooting him in the back, not very likely IMO

Snipped:

The fourth round struck Romero in the back, near the center ofthe right shoulder blade. The round
traveled at a downward angle passing through the organs in the chest and coming to rest in the abdomen.
This round was recovered by the pathologist.

[bkwits]

Im too sleepy to think. Good night all. :seeya:

[shelby77]

Plus the locations of the casings don't match with the scenario of the shooter being in the upstairs hallway for those shots IIRC

[shelby77]

Arizona senior forensic pathologist, Keen, said the shape of the wound on Romero's back may suggest the assailant was slightly to the right and BELOW Romero. Romero was facedown. That would place the gunman at the bottom of the stairs.

A hole in the front of VR's helmet is also mentioned suggesting he may also have been hit from in front, but the shot from in front would have been to the head...as far as this report goes.

Channel 15, Story regarding autopsy results

TYVM muska, I knew I had reason to believe those shots came from below :thumbsup:

So Hawk, now how do you explain?

[Hawk]

TYVM muska, I knew I had reason to believe those shots came from below :thumbsup:

So Hawk, now how do you explain?

He speculated without seeing the casing locations. The bullet in question traveled downward and ended in the abdomen.
Mr Haag will sort it out.

[Hawk]

Plus the locations of the casings don't match with the scenario of the shooter being in the upstairs hallway for those shots IIRC

Two casings upstairs show that the shooter fired twice at Mr. Romero. At two different occasions.

[shelby77]

He speculated without seeing the casing locations. The bullet in question traveled downward and ended in the abdomen.
Mr Haag will sort it out.

How in the world does he speculate it, when he's photographing the wounds?! Guinn I mean, I gave you a direct quote from his report. The shot was to VR's BACK not FRONT..

[shelby77]

Two casings upstairs show that the shooter fired twice at Mr. Romero. At two different occasions.


And I take that to be from the 2 head shots.

[Hawk]

How in the world does he speculate it, when he's photographing the wounds?! Guinn I mean, I gave you a direct quote from his report. The shot was to VR's BACK not FRONT..


Yes, it was a shot in the back. What we don't know is if it was a shot before, or after, he was down (on the stairs). If he was already down a shot from the top of the stairs would make the wound (the bullet stopped in his abdomen).

[shelby77]

And if you read Guinn's report, I don't think it's even possible that he was clutching his chest after the arm shot as he states that bullet exited the inside of his bicep and struck a glancing blow to the ribcage without penetrating the body. Obviously not a chest wound either.

[shelby77]

Yes, it was a shot in the back. What we don't know is if it was a shot before, or after, he was down (on the stairs).

I can't figure how he would be physically capable, given his height and the length of the gun to do the shot to the back while VR was sprawled across the stairs. It makes MUCH more sense that the shooter was below him on the stairs. You're trying too hard to make the evidence fit a certain preconceived scenario, which it obviously does not, given what we know, IMO. It's just not enough to convince me...

[Hawk]

And if you read Guinn's report, I don't think it's even possible that he was clutching his chest after the arm shot as he states that bullet exited the inside of his bicep and struck a glancing blow to the ribcage without penetrating the body. Obviously not a chest wound either.

The reports say that Mr. Romeros' arms were tucked under his body. And that he fell 'face down'. Clearly indicative that he grasped his chest.
The rib hurt worse than the arm.

[shelby77]

The reports say that Mr. Romeros' arms were tucked under his body. And that he fell 'face down'. Clearly indicative that he grasped his chest.


You're missing the point, and not explaining the evidence in a reasonable way. The shooter would know VR was not shot in the chest as he was OBVIOUSLY hit from behind, how do you explain that? You still haven't, just gone around it....

[Hawk]

I can't figure how he would be physically capable, given his height and the length of the gun to do the shot to the back while VR was sprawled across the stairs. It makes MUCH more sense that the shooter was below him on the stairs. You're trying too hard to make the evidence fit a certain preconceived scenario, which it obviously does not, given what we know, IMO. It's just not enough to convince me...


Why would he be shot, one time, in the back, then go up 9 more stairs just to shot above the left ear?

[Hawk]

You're missing the point, and not explaining the evidence in a reasonable way. The shooter would know VR was not shot in the chest as he was OBVIOUSLY hit from behind, how do you explain that? You still haven't, just gone around it....


There is absolutely no evidence that Mr. Romero was shot from behind!
A TV doctor speculated. The bullet went downward, through his vital organs, and wound up in his abdomen.
Do you need a weather man to tell you which way the wind blows?
Mr. Romero was shot in the back after he was down and out on the stairs. He was shot from above.

[shelby77]

There is absolutely no evidence that Mr. Romero was shot from behind!
A TV doctor speculated. The bullet went downward, through his vital organs, and wound up in his abdomen.
Do you need a weather man to tell you which way the wind blows?


HELLOOO, have you even bothered to READ the documents I referenced. Obviously not. The officer PHOTOGRAPHING the wounds gave an exact statement as the wound in the back. I believe a few posts above you even agreed yourself to this wound and now you are back to disputing it. Well I have taken the time to read ALL the evidence out there and it clearly contradicts what you are trying to say. I can provide you with links if you like, but you'll have to do the actual readinlg and research for yourself, as I did, before you can make an INFORMED decision.
I will not continue to debate with someone who refuses to read evidence pointed out to them multiple times, simply because it doesn't fit their theory.
You haven't even bothered to thoroughly read my posts to you or you would already know this.

[shelby77]

Yes, it was a shot in the back. What we don't know is if it was a shot before, or after, he was down (on the stairs). If he was already down a shot from the top of the stairs would make the wound (the bullet stopped in his abdomen).

Bolding by me. So in this post you agreed to the back shot. So how does one get shot in the back, if not from behind? From in front..how?? :confused:

[Hawk]

HELLOOO, have you even bothered to READ the documents I referenced. Obviously not. The officer PHOTOGRAPHING the wounds gave an exact statement as the wound in the back. I believe a few posts above you even agreed yourself to this wound and now you are back to disputing it. Well I have taken the time to read ALL the evidence out there and it clearly contradicts what you are trying to say. I can provide you with links if you like, but you'll have to do the actual readinlg and research for yourself, as I did, before you can make an INFORMED decision.
I will not continue to debate with someone who refuses to read evidence pointed out to them multiple times, simply because it doesn't fit their theory.
You haven't even bothered to thoroughly read my posts to you or you would already know this.

"The fourth round struck Romero in the back, near the center of his right shoulder blade. The round traveled at a DOWNWARD angle passing through the organs in the chest and coming to rest in the abdomen." (SGT Richard Guinn).

What part of that don't you understand?

I believe downward suggests a shot from the top of the stairs.

[shelby77]

"The fourth round struck Romero in the back, near the center of hid right shoulder blade. The round traveled at a DOWNWARD angle passing through the organs in the chest and coming to rest in the abdomen." (SGT Richard Guinn).

What part of that don't you understand?

The question is what part don't YOU understand. You just proved my point. TYVM :tonguewag:

How you confuse officer photographing wounds with TV doctor, IDK, but it's all good.

[Hawk]

The question is what part don't YOU understand. You just proved my point. TYVM :tonguewag:

How you confuse officer photographing wounds with TV doctor, IDK, but it's all good.

The back shot came from the top of the stairs after Mr. Romero was down. It didn't come from the rear. It came from the front.

[shelby77]

"The fourth round struck Romero in the back, near the center of his right shoulder blade. The round traveled at a DOWNWARD angle passing through the organs in the chest and coming to rest in the abdomen." (SGT Richard Guinn).

What part of that don't you understand?

I believe downward suggests a shot from the top of the stairs.

And I believe a few nights ago when I brought up trajectory, you contradicted me with the bullet ricocheting off bone. Oh how soon we forget our own theories lol...
psst...good thing I remebered....

[Hawk]

And I believe a few nights ago when I brought up trajectory, you contradicted me with the bullet ricocheting off bone. Oh how soon we forget our own theories lol...
psst...good thing I remebered....


That was before we were privy to the empty casing evidence.

[Hawk]

And I believe a few nights ago when I brought up trajectory, you contradicted me with the bullet ricocheting off bone. Oh how soon we forget our own theories lol...
psst...good thing I remebered....

You're right. I suggested that the back shot could have been from below and been deflected off the collar bone downward.
The empty casings locations changed my mind.
I wish it hadn't.
I hope you're right.

[Details]

The only way I know of to be shot in the back, from the front, is with a magic curving bullet. Do 8 year old boys have access to that? The only people I've ever heard of having it were conspiracy theorists and some cartoon characters.

[Hawk]

The only way I know of to be shot in the back, from the front, is with a magic curving bullet. Do 8 year old boys have access to that? The only people I've ever heard of having it were conspiracy theorists and some cartoon characters.

The back shot would have been one of the two last shots, with the body lying on the steps below the shooter. That's why the bullet went downward.

[shelby77]

You're right. I suggested that the back shot could have been from below and been deflected off the collar bone downward.
The empty casings locations changed my mind.
I wish it hadn't.
I hope you're right.

When did you discover the casing locations? Because our conversation was on Dec. 28, long after I knew of them anyway...

[shelby77]

The back shot would have been one of the two last shots, with the body lying on the steps below the shooter. That's why the bullet went downward.

But if he's lying down, that's not technically downard, downard would be towards the floor, not travel down towards his feet to rest in his stomach, considering the entry wound in his shoulder area...

[Hawk]

When did you discover the casing locations? Because our conversation was on Dec. 28, long after I knew of them anyway...

They are listed on the St. Johns Evidence Control Form. The release date was just a couple of weeks ago.
I'm trying to figure out what really happened.

[shelby77]

They are listed on the St. Johns Evidence Control Form. The release date was just a couple of weeks ago.
I'm trying to figure out what really happened.


And our conversation was just a few days ago, after I read it, before you did. We will just have to agree to disagree. I tried, but you did not convince me how the statement that the boy made about the father being shot in the chest was incriminating towards him when in fact, he was NOT shot in the chest. You are basing it on the fact that the boy believed the shot in the arm (which I believe to have come from behind) had indeed shot VR in the chest. I don't buy that. You do. Hopefully one day we find out who is correct.

[Hawk]

When did you discover the casing locations? Because our conversation was on Dec. 28, long after I knew of them anyway...


I know I'm running against the wind saying the boy did the deed. I think he did. I hope there is an adequate reason.

But I'm on his side and hope he can have a good and free life.

[Hawk]

And our conversation was just a few days ago, after I read it, before you did. We will just have to agree to disagree. I tried, but you did not convince me how the statement that the boy made about the father being shot in the chest was incriminating towards him when in fact, he was NOT shot in the chest. You are basing it on the fact that the boy believed the shot in the arm (which I believe to have come from behind) had indeed shot VR in the chest. I don't buy that. You do. Hopefully one day we find out who is correct.

I wish I knew others who had half the conviction you do.

God bless you! HE gave us the ability to discuss. And debate.

Thanks for your honesty!

[shelby77]

Two casings upstairs show that the shooter fired twice at Mr. Romero. At two different occasions.

Jeez, most of what you're are contradicting me with is not even accurate. Page 3 of Guinn's report gives the locations of the casings, only ONE was found upstairs, there was also one on the second step of the LOWER stairway, as pointed out by Melnick, one found on the 3rd and one on the 4th step facing the southwall of the stairwell, I believe these are from the upper section of stairs but it's not specific to that. Definitely on the stairs though, with one upstairs (headshot) and one all the way by the bottom of the stairs. Seems to fit my scenario nicely, IMO.

[shelby77]

I was fairly certain he had done it before myself actually. I like you, Hawk, though would like therapy and not incareration for him. Regardless of guilt or innocence at this point, he definitely needs therapy.

But the more evidence that comes out, now I'm slowly starting to doubt his guilt. This whole chest wound statement is just part of what doesn't fit with me. It fit nicely until I found out there was no chest wound. I don't know who else could have done it, I'm just not convinced he did it either. I was kinda hoping you could sway me back, I still have an open mind and am not set or guilt or innocence. I'm trying to let the evidence lead the way...

[PensiveOne]

The shooter was on the 2nd floor. His safest place. He waited until the victim was on the 3rd step of the 2nd landing, then shot him. Twice. He then went down the stairs to shot the second victim.

I don't agree. I think the shooter was at the bottom of the stairs to begin with. This has bothered me from the get go. If the shooter was at the bottom and shot the two shots (one to the left side of his head and one to his left arm into his chest, I think) to VR's left side...how did that happen? I am waiting until the expert explains it. I just can't envision it. The two shots from above him happened after he was down. The one to his hard hat and the one in his back. I know the expert ME that talked about the shot to the back said it was from below, but then I read in one of the reports from someone at the autopsy that it was from above and down. The lead had ended up in his abdomen. So that is two separate statements that don't match. I will have to reread those statements again. JMO.

[PensiveOne]

Well this here from Guinn's report disputes at least that 2 of the non-head shots were from the front, which would lead me to believe that both of the 2 shots were from behind, not counting the head shots. Otherwise you have the shooter going from the hallway in front of VR, to shooting him in the back, not very likely IMO

Snipped:

The fourth round struck Romero in the back, near the center ofthe right shoulder blade. The round
traveled at a downward angle passing through the organs in the chest and coming to rest in the abdomen.
This round was recovered by the pathologist.

Thanks, Shelby...that is the one I was looking for!

[PensiveOne]

He speculated without seeing the casing locations. The bullet in question traveled downward and ended in the abdomen.
Mr Haag will sort it out.

Hawk, I enjoy reading your speculations. However, I don't understand how the locations of the casings automatically put the gun in the hands of the boy? For one thing since you eject the casings manually you could shoot anywhere and eject after you have moved...right?

[PensiveOne]

The back shot would have been one of the two last shots, with the body lying on the steps below the shooter. That's why the bullet went downward.

I still haven't seen the ballistics that prove the bullets came from the boy's gun. Have you ever considered two shooters? VR gets shot in the left side and tries to run up the stairs to get one of his guns and is surprised by another shooter upstairs? What if some punks were in the house to rob them? What if one of the wives (in one report Dana said the gun was Tiffany's not the boy's) or one of TR's girlfriends was in the house waiting? There are lots of other possible suspects. JMO.

[wolfi_2]

Here's the deal;

Had a Mexican gang, or an irate Navajo, done the deed they would have used a 12 gauge shot gun, or at least a suppressor Ruger .22 then picked up the empty casings. The killings would have taken about 4 seconds each, with two/three head shots to both victims. They would not have done it at Romeros home and blamed it on the boy.
Why would they? One group is illegal anyway. Mexico ain't that far away.
They would have done the deed anywhere that was convenient to them (on the dirt road toward town or the lonesome bar they hung out in). A safe place. Under darkness. Romeros residence would not have been.

If either Mrs. Romero or Mrs. Romans wanted to do the deed and planned it, where is the evidence for that?



another theory:
A drug gang or any other gang would act more professional as you stated in a former post, and if the boy enter the scene, he wouldn´t be with us anymore.
The boy stated in the interview, that he shoot his dad twice because he was suffering. I think, that can be true, because his dad, a hunter, say you have to stop suffering. But I don´t believe, that the initial shoots are from the boy. The shootings are very unprofessional, that show to me, it was an act of vengeance, this kind of killing are normally done by job related affairs, or by personal affairs. So for me, the question is, who was the main victim? Tim or Vincent? if it was Tim, he, maybe would get a divorce, that point it to his wife, his daughter's or some other close relatives, and by the way, are they questioned by LE also? -for me there would be a reason. If the main victim was Vincent, it would point again to his wife, because his affair in the bar, or another possibility, it´s job related! In this case both Tim and Vincent could have been main victims. I resume, it is true that a lot of all the evidence is pointing to the boy, but the evidence doesn´t fit the(my personal) logic, because there was no real reason for the boy to do the shootings. If the boy does all the shooting´s , I´m sure he wouldn't run to the neighbors to get help. The impressions would overwhelmed the boy very fast, and I think, he would be run away to cry somewhere. And I know, the boy is very small, he looks more a 7 year old then a 8 or 9 year old boy, I don´t believe, that he can overwhelmed two adult man with a single shoot gun where you have to reload after each shoot. Another thing in this case, the boys attorney ask for professional help to reconstruct the shooting´s, would he do that if he think, the boy do it? that would be counterproductive for the boy. And he (the attorney) is the only one, who can speak to the boy free.

If I make some mistakes in this text or any other writing´s in this forum, I´m sorry! :blushing:I´m not from the UK:wink:, I´m from Germany, so I´m not a native English speaker or writer.

[shelby77]

Ok, now that I've had rest I can think more clearly :biggrin:
I see what Hawk is saying about the bullet to the back (shoulder area) being inflicted after VR was already down. I can even agree that this is certainly possible.
But my original question as to how the boy's statement to his grandmother the night of the murders about his fathers chest wound indicates his guilt still puzzles me as VR was clearly not shot in the chest. He didn't mistake the 2 head shots as chest wounds, nor the wound to the back after he was down. I don't think he would think a shot to the arm was a chest wound either, and there were only 4 bullets used on him. I need to figure out more of the bullet to the arm, did enter the front of the arm or back? Does anybody remember reading those details. I only recall them saying it was above the elbow and exited the inside of the bicep to glance his ribcage without entering skin IIRC.

[shelby77]

another theory:
A drug gang or any other gang would act more professional as you stated in a former post, and if the boy enter the scene, he wouldn´t be with us anymore.
The boy stated in the interview, that he shoot his dad twice because he was suffering. I think, that can be true, because his dad, a hunter, say you have to stop suffering. But I don´t believe, that the initial shoots are from the boy. The shootings are very unprofessional, that show to me, it was an act of vengeance, this kind of killing are normally done by job related affairs, or by personal affairs. So for me, the question is, who was the main victim? Tim or Vincent? if it was Tim, he, maybe would get a divorce, that point it to his wife, his daughter's or some other close relatives, and by the way, are they questioned by LE also? -for me there would be a reason. If the main victim was Vincent, it would point again to his wife, because his affair in the bar, or another possibility, it´s job related! In this case both Tim and Vincent could have been main victims. I resume, it is true that a lot of all the evidence is pointing to the boy, but the evidence doesn´t fit the(my personal) logic, because there was no real reason for the boy to do the shootings. If the boy does all the shooting´s , I´m sure he wouldn't run to the neighbors to get help. The impressions would overwhelmed the boy very fast, and I think, he would be run away to cry somewhere. And I know, the boy is very small, he looks more a 7 year old then a 8 or 9 year old boy, I don´t believe, that he can overwhelmed two adult man with a single shoot gun where you have to reload after each shoot. Another thing in this case, the boys attorney ask for professional help to reconstruct the shooting´s, would he do that if he think, the boy do it? that would be counterproductive for the boy. And he (the attorney) is the only one, who can speak to the boy free.

If I make some mistakes in this text or any other writing´s in this forum, I´m sorry! :blushing:I´m not from the UK:wink:, I´m from Germany, so I´m not a native English speaker or writer.


Please don't apologize for mistakes in text or writing!! I was born and raised in the good ol USA, english being my first (and only)language, and I'm sure I still, along w/ many other Americans, make my fair share of mistakes in text, especially typing online lol. Heck half the people I know can't spell 10 words without getting at least one wrong LMAO.

As a sidenote, my son takes German classes in HS, he is absolutely enthralled with the language. He sooo excited to find out they offered it and can't wait until he can speak it fluently. Half of the music he listens to is in German, and I must say, I enjoy the music very much myself!! I can even sing along in German to Monsoon by Tokio Hotel, not that I understand or am even singing correctly, but still I love it :)

[wolfi_2]

Please don't apologize for mistakes in text or writing!! I was born and raised in the good ol USA, english being my first (and only)language, and I'm sure I still, along w/ many other Americans, make my fair share of mistakes in text, especially typing online lol. Heck half the people I know can't spell 10 words without getting at least one wrong LMAO.

As a sidenote, my son takes German classes in HS, he is absolutely enthralled with the language. He sooo excited to find out they offered it and can't wait until he can speak it fluently. Half of the music he listens to is in German, and I must say, I enjoy the music very much myself!! I can even sing along in German to Monsoon by Tokio Hotel, not that I understand or am even singing correctly, but still I love it :)

Thanks shelby77

beside this case
I suggest, send your son for a couple of month or a year to Germany, my parents gave a US high school girl a home for a few weeks, she spend the initial weeks in my hometown ("Leer", If you have Google earth) after that time she lived with a family near Hamburg for a whole year, she went during that time to a german school. I visit her while she was study at the University of Arizona 17 years ago and she (still ) speak perfect German with nearly no accent.
Here are two link´s to that organisation.
http://www.yfu.us
http://www.yfu.de

OH yes, Tokyo Hotel is a very good exporter for the German language.

[tif]

He speculated without seeing the casing locations. The bullet in question traveled downward and ended in the abdomen.
Mr Haag will sort it out.

I'm a little confused about why you rely so much on the casing locations. Isn't it possible that the killer(s) kicked them around while they continued firing, or that the boy kicked them while looking for his father? I wouldn't put it past the Keystone Cops not to be careful either.

I believe downward suggests a shot from the top of the stairs.
Mr Haag will sort it out.

Or VR was forced to kneel and then shot. That area has a big meth problem. It doesn't take much for a meth user to go ape sh!t.

[tif]

Thanks shelby77

beside this case
I suggest, send your son for a couple of month or a year to Germany, my parents gave a US high school girl a home for a few weeks, she spend the initial weeks in my hometown ("Leer", If you have Google earth) after that time she lived with a family near Hamburg for a whole year, she went during that time to a german school. I visit her while she was study at the University of Arizona 17 years ago and she (still ) speak perfect German with nearly no accent.
Here are two link´s to that organisation.
http://www.yfu.us
http://www.yfu.de

OH yes, Tokyo Hotel is a very good exporter for the German language.

My nephew participated in one of those programs and became fluent in no time. I think if we could start shipping off more American kids to foreign countries for some part of high school, our leaders of tomorrow would be a lot more competent.

[LindaNJ1216]

How is his confession validated? Not a detail from it is true. The two men were not shot two times, nor was the father shot in the chest, nor was the gun placed in the closet.

True..the details may not match. However, in the beginning of the interview he was calm and cool as a cucumber and his BS story flowed with practiced ease. Only when confronted with a discrepancy did he change his story....and change it...and change it to conform with the new information he believed was contradictory.

He knew exactly what he did and believed he was going to juve for it.

[LindaNJ1216]

Come on Hawk, I do this for a living. This was clearly a hit.

I'm so impressed...you a close friend of Lenny Padilla by any chance? :tonguewag:

A hit ...by an 8 ...almost 9 year old.

[LindaNJ1216]

I know I'm running against the wind saying the boy did the deed. I think he did. I hope there is an adequate reason.

But I'm on his side and hope he can have a good and free life.

I also believe this child is guilty of double murder.

I also believe that if he is guilty there is something seriously wrong with him. I do think he needs to be punished as well as receive intensive therapy daily at some locked residential facility until he's 18.

[wolfi_2]

I also believe this child is guilty of double murder.

I also believe that if he is guilty there is something seriously wrong with him. I do think he needs to be punished as well as receive intensive therapy daily at some locked residential facility until he's 18.


If you lock children of this age away for such a long time, the outcome will be even more worse. what kind of facility did you think about, like the juvenile detention? speaking with his mom only through a wall of glass? no Hug at all, no love ?

[tif]

True..the details may not match. However, in the beginning of the interview he was calm and cool as a cucumber and his BS story flowed with practiced ease. Only when confronted with a discrepancy did he change his story....and change it...and change it to conform with the new information he believed was contradictory.

He knew exactly what he did and believed he was going to juve for it.
Well, no. He didn't change his story when confronted with a "discrepancy." He changed his story when the detectives lied to him about having a witness and about having forensic evidence. He sounded very truthful in the beginning, but sounded like he was lying at the end. This was a classic case of trying to please the interrogators.

Consider for just a moment that he didn't do it. The detectives, who promised that they would not lie, said they had a witness who saw him do it. What eight year old could hold up under that kind of questioning? If your's could, he needs to be studied.

[LindaNJ1216]

If you lock children of this age away for such a long time, the outcome will be even more worse. what kind of facility did you think about, like the juvenile detention? speaking with his mom only through a wall of glass? no Hug at all, no love ?

The residential treatment facilities I've personally seen aren't like detention at all. Where I live juvenile detention is for the short term. Treatment facilities can look like hospitals, sleep away camps or college campuses. There aren't cells and visits aren't through glass. Teachers come there to teach, the child would spend his days in a school room, one on one therapy and group therapy as well as other supervised fun type activities. They just can't leave and are watched 24/7.

Got news for you...if this 8 year old murdered these men and coldly and boldly as claimed...All the love & hugs in the world aren't going to fix him.

[muska]

The residential treatment facilities I've personally seen aren't like detention at all. Where I live juvenile detention is for the short term. Treatment facilities can look like hospitals, sleep away camps or college campuses. There aren't cells and visits aren't through glass. Teachers come there to teach, the child would spend his days in a school room, one on one therapy and group therapy as well as other supervised fun type activities. They just can't leave and are watched 24/7.

Got news for you...if this 8 year old murdered these men and coldly and boldly as claimed...All the love & hugs in the world aren't going to fix him.

Please name one long term facility such as the one you described above. That would cost a fortune and has not happened for any of the kids that I've followed in the juvenile justice system.

More likely, commitment would be to a JDC where a large percentage of kids need mental health therapy provided by a much too small staff.

[muska]

I also believe this child is guilty of double murder.

I also believe that if he is guilty there is something seriously wrong with him. I do think he needs to be punished as well as receive intensive therapy daily at some locked residential facility until he's 18.

What kind of kids do you work with?

[bkwits]

The residential treatment facilities I've personally seen aren't like detention at all. Where I live juvenile detention is for the short term. Treatment facilities can look like hospitals, sleep away camps or college campuses. There aren't cells and visits aren't through glass. Teachers come there to teach, the child would spend his days in a school room, one on one therapy and group therapy as well as other supervised fun type activities. They just can't leave and are watched 24/7.

Got news for you...if this 8 year old murdered these men and coldly and boldly as claimed...All the love & hugs in the world aren't going to fix him.

Regardless or whether you think he did this or not, do you think that he has been treated fairly by the justice system?

[wolfi_2]

The residential treatment facilities I've personally seen aren't like detention at all. Where I live juvenile detention is for the short term. Treatment facilities can look like hospitals, sleep away camps or college campuses. There aren't cells and visits aren't through glass. Teachers come there to teach, the child would spend his days in a school room, one on one therapy and group therapy as well as other supervised fun type activities. They just can't leave and are watched 24/7.

Got news for you...if this 8 year old murdered these men and coldly and boldly as claimed...All the love & hugs in the world aren't going to fix him.

I personal think, at this age everything can be fixed. If he do it, -and I don´t believe he do, I don´t think he do it in cold blood and premeditated because I can´t still see a reason. And Even if he do it, he should not being in such a facility longer then needed.

[LindaNJ1216]

Please name one long term facility such as the one you described above. That would cost a fortune and has not happened for any of the kids that I've followed in the juvenile justice system.

More likely, commitment would be to a JDC where a large percentage of kids need mental health therapy provided by a much too small staff.


Here ya go
http://www.bonnie-brae.org/

[LindaNJ1216]

What kind of kids do you work with?

I don't anymore. I've worked with adjudicated delinquents, child victims of sexual assault, children with duel diagnoses primarily behavioral for about 20 years.

[LindaNJ1216]

Regardless or whether you think he did this or not, do you think that he has been treated fairly by the justice system?


Define "fairly."

[bkwits]

Define "fairly."


Fairly as the way you would expect to be treated or your child to be treated under our system of justice.

[LindaNJ1216]

Fairly as the way you would expect to be treated or your child to be treated under our system of justice.


Personally, I think finding the truth is more important than Mirandizing a juvenile....Real justice is served by finding the truth and doing the very best we can to fix this child. Tossing the case because of a tequincality helps no one. I do not think he should be charged as an adult. There needs to be some form of punishment and treatment for real justice to be served.

[Crispy]

Well Linda, I can agree with you on a little bit of your post. Tossing on a technicality doesn't help any one.

[bkwits]

Personally, I think finding the truth is more important than Mirandizing a juvenile....Real justice is served by finding the truth and doing the very best we can to fix this child. Tossing the case because of a tequincality helps no one. I do not think he should be charged as an adult. There needs to be some form of punishment and treatment for real justice to be served.

You did not answer my question. IYO, was this child treated fairly, as you would want your child treated if he was questioned by LE.

[bkwits]

Well Linda, I can agree with you on a little bit of your post. Tossing on a technicality doesn't help any one.

What technicality? The Constitution?

[wolfi_2]

Personally, I think finding the truth is more important than Mirandizing a juvenile....Real justice is served by finding the truth and doing the very best we can to fix this child. Tossing the case because of a tequincality helps no one. I do not think he should be charged as an adult. There needs to be some form of punishment and treatment for real justice to be served.



What if the boy is not guilty and was really led into a false confession and the evidence didn´t clear it 100% ? and another thing, I would fire a attorney that wouldn’t get me out of it as soon as possible. If I was in place of the boy, I would get out there, I would not take care of anybody else.
And law is law, if the state failed, bad for the state, bad for the victims. Same here as everywhere in the civilized world. If the state failed, they must let the offender go. It was just happened here, the state missed to fill a form in time.

[Details]

I don't have much interest in technicalities - but in this case we're dealing with the 'technicality' that there's every reason to believe the confession is false. Including that is in no one's best interests.

Every false little detail they gave him, he echoed back. Every detail they didn't give him, he completely missed on - number of shots, where they were shot, where he left the gun.

[bkwits]

Personally, I think finding the truth is more important than Mirandizing a juvenile....Real justice is served by finding the truth and doing the very best we can to fix this child. Tossing the case because of a tequincality helps no one. I do not think he should be charged as an adult. There needs to be some form of punishment and treatment for real justice to be served.

Well, just how far would you go to "find the truth?"

[bkwits]

I don't have much interest in technicalities - but in this case we're dealing with the 'technicality' that there's every reason to believe the confession is false. Including that is in no one's best interests.

Every false little detail they gave him, he echoed back. Every detail they didn't give him, he completely missed on - number of shots, where they were shot, where he left the gun.

I haven't heard what technicality we are discussing here.

I asked the OP if she thought the child was treated fairly. She asked me to define fairly. I did that and she never answered me.

[bkwits]

I don't have much interest in technicalities - but in this case we're dealing with the 'technicality' that there's every reason to believe the confession is false. Including that is in no one's best interests.

Every false little detail they gave him, he echoed back. Every detail they didn't give him, he completely missed on - number of shots, where they were shot, where he left the gun.

Since the child was denied any representation, even though his grandparents and his stepmom asked to be present, was never advised, that he was a suspect, was repeatedly lied to, do you think his confession should be admitted as evidence?

[bkwits]

What if the boy is not guilty and was really led into a false confession and the evidence didn´t clear it 100% ? and another thing, I would fire a attorney that wouldn’t get me out of it as soon as possible. If I was in place of the boy, I would get out there, I would not take care of anybody else.
And law is law, if the state failed, bad for the state, bad for the victims. Same here as everywhere in the civilized world. If the state failed, they must let the offender go. It was just happened here, the state missed to fill a form in time.

You are absolutely right Wolfie. We have a system to protect our rights, even protection for the guilty. The system surely failed this boy. IMO

[muska]

What technicality? The Constitution?

Frightening....

[muska]

I don't anymore. I've worked with adjudicated delinquents, child victims of sexual assault, children with duel diagnoses primarily behavioral for about 20 years.

Did you dislike the delinquent kids in your care as much as you seem to dislike this boy?

[GentleBreeze]

Did you dislike the delinquent kids in your care as much as you seem to dislike this boy?


Has it become some kind of prerequisite, that a defendant, must be liked these days?

I don't like or dislike this defendant. I do agree with Hawk and Linda that he is the sole shooter and definitely, I very much dislike what I think he is guilty of doing.

So I think liking him or not, is irrelevant.

[bkwits]

Has it become some kind of prerequisite, that a defendant, must be liked these days?

I don't like or dislike this defendant. I do agree with Hawk and Linda that he is the sole shooter and definitely, I very much dislike what I think he is guilty of doing.

So I think liking him or not, is irrelevant.

I think Muska asked a fair question considering the OP's comments about this child. IMO

[FurthurBB]

The residential treatment facilities I've personally seen aren't like detention at all. Where I live juvenile detention is for the short term. Treatment facilities can look like hospitals, sleep away camps or college campuses. There aren't cells and visits aren't through glass. Teachers come there to teach, the child would spend his days in a school room, one on one therapy and group therapy as well as other supervised fun type activities. They just can't leave and are watched 24/7.

Got news for you...if this 8 year old murdered these men and coldly and boldly as claimed...All the love & hugs in the world aren't going to fix him.

Neither would a lack of love & hugs fix him. IMO

[FurthurBB]

Well Linda, I can agree with you on a little bit of your post. Tossing on a technicality doesn't help any one.

That is why police are trained. Obviously they are often not trained enough. IMO

[muska]

I think Muska asked a fair question considering the OP's comments about this child. IMO


Thanks Bkwits!

[muska]

One of the year's top stories:

http://www.wmicentral.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20232882&BRD=2264&PAG=461&dept_id=505965&rfi=6

I think this happened mid-year.

[Crispy]

What technicality? The Constitution?

The police thought he could have been the shooter. It's their own fault for not reading him Miranda. When the confession is tossed because they didn't, that is what the prosecutors will say. Based on a technicality.

IMO if this boy did do it, the police have blown the prosecutors case all to heck and back with their mistakes. I'm not sure if they did it because of stupidity, or if they just thought this was a little boy in a little town that wouldn't draw much attention and nobody will know/care if they violated his rights.

[LindaNJ1216]

You did not answer my question. IYO, was this child treated fairly, as you would want your child treated if he was questioned by LE.

Yes. It's not like they beat him with rubber hoses or were in any way shape or form mean to him. They didn't even raise their voices.

[LindaNJ1216]

What if the boy is not guilty and was really led into a false confession and the evidence didn´t clear it 100% ? and another thing, I would fire a attorney that wouldn’t get me out of it as soon as possible. If I was in place of the boy, I would get out there, I would not take care of anybody else.
And law is law, if the state failed, bad for the state, bad for the victims. Same here as everywhere in the civilized world. If the state failed, they must let the offender go. It was just happened here, the state missed to fill a form in time.

Letting the child go in this case would be a HUGE mistake IMO

[LindaNJ1216]

Well, just how far would you go to "find the truth?"

I see nothing wrong with the way they questioned the boy.

[bkwits]

Yes. It's not like they beat him with rubber hoses or were in any way shape or form mean to him. They didn't even raise their voices.

So you are saying that you would let your child be questioned in the same manner without any adult present to look out for his rights?

Pardon me for saying that I seriously doubt that.

[LindaNJ1216]

Did you dislike the delinquent kids in your care as much as you seem to dislike this boy?

In 20 years...I've only personally have came across one boy that was brilliant, manipulative & charming but a true psychopath, capable of ...and committing the most heinous acts imaginable without a shred of remorse.

Most were never "in my care" I didn't work with them in that capacity.

It's not that I dislike the boy, the boy scares the sh!t outta me. So many things about him that I can't even begin to explain remind me of the one I knew personally.

[LindaNJ1216]

So you are saying that you would let your child be questioned in the same manner without any adult present to look out for his rights?

Pardon me for saying that I seriously doubt that.

In my state there isn't a snowball's chance my child could ever be charged as an adult. My son has been taught his rights and would refuse to speak without myself or my husband being notified.

And yes...he's already had the opportunity to assert his rights this way when he witnessed a domestic dispute involving neighbors and police tried talking to him.

[bkwits]

In my state there isn't a snowball's chance my child could ever be charged as an adult. My son has been taught his rights and would refuse to speak without myself or my husband being notified.

And yes...he's already had the opportunity to assert his rights this way when he witnessed a domestic dispute involving neighbors and police tried talking to him.

I can see that you look out for your son and want him to be protected and treated fairly. I think that is right for every child. They were wrong to interrogate him as they did. Because of this we may never know the truth. IMO

[LindaNJ1216]

I can see that you look out for your son and want him to be protected and treated fairly. I think that is right for every child. They were wrong to interrogate him as they did. Because of this we may never know the truth. IMO


Hypothetically speaking....if I was notified by LE that they wanted to talk to my child about this case. I would have given permission for them to do so and would have waived his right to an attorney. I would be confident my child had zero to do with it.

[LindaNJ1216]

I personal think, at this age everything can be fixed. If he do it, -and I don´t believe he do, I don´t think he do it in cold blood and premeditated because I can´t still see a reason. And Even if he do it, he should not being in such a facility longer then needed.

Where I live, the child could be placed in a specialized therapeutic foster home instead of detention if an opening was available and be on homebound school instruction until evaluations and a court determination and a bed in an appropriate secured facility became available. The child may even be shipped out of state for treatment. Sometimes it can take a year or more for treatment to even begin.

If he did it and I believe he did...he most certainly did it with premeditation, the reason mattered to the boy. Just because you don't understand the reason...or you think everyone that murders needs a good reason doesn't make it reality. People murder other people every day and IMO it hardly ever makes any sense to me.

[muska]

I finally read the boy's "confession" transcript. I had listened to it a couple of times but hadn't read it. It's funny how we all draw different conclusions. The more I see or hear or read it, the less believable it is to me. He provides a lot of detail at the beginning, details that I don't think a kid would be likely to make up. Then his story gets so confused and none of it really adds up.

I don't think the police could have done much worse of a job with this.

[Justice_Dawg]

I see nothing wrong with the way they questioned the boy.

I totally believe in the Law of Three. May you get them all.... Over and Over again.

[LindaNJ1216]

Yes, I noted that too. The OP has a lot of straw men in her closet. IMO

"straw men in the closet" what does that mean? Never heard that expression before:confused: I need to know just how offended I should be:laugh:

[Justice_Dawg]

I finally read the boy's "confession" transcript. I had listened to it a couple of times but hadn't read it. It's funny how we all draw different conclusions. The more I see or hear or read it, the less believable it is to me. He provides a lot of detail at the beginning, details that I don't think a kid would be likely to make up. Then his story gets so confused and none of it really adds up.

I don't think the police could have done much worse of a job with this.



I So Totally agree. :thumbsup:

[bkwits]

"straw men in the closet" what does that mean? Never heard that expression before:confused: I need to know just how offended I should be:laugh:

I don't think you should be particularly offended. I am surprised that you are unfamiliar with the debating term of "straw man."

[Justice_Dawg]

You never heard of using a straw man in a debate or discussion? I am surprised.

To easy to set on fire.

:tonguewag:

[Justice_Dawg]

Why did Hawk get banned? Or did he get a timeout? :w00t:

[bkwits]

Why did Hawk get banned? Or did he get a timeout? :w00t:

Did he? I didn't agree with him, but we had a good discussion going last night. :mellow:

Timeout makes me smile. It's like we are preschoolers.

[Justice_Dawg]

Did he? I didn't agree with him, but we had a good discussion going last night. :mellow:

I thought it was good too!!
It says banned by his name and he isn't here. :cursing:

LOL, Get in the corner.

[bkwits]

I thought it was good too!!
It says banned by his name and he isn't here. :cursing:

LOL, Get in the corner.


Aww too bad, There was some excitement on the board. I thought he was respectful for the most part. Maybe he got banned from a different thread. I don't know how that works, since I've yet to be banned.

But the discussion went on after I went to sleep.:shrug:

[shelby77]

Hawk was banned!! Whatever for? I certainly didn't agree with him either, but I did enjoy debating with him last night :thumbdown:

[shelby77]

Aww too bad, There was some excitement on the board. I thought he was respectful for the most part. Maybe he got banned from a different thread. I don't know how that works, since I've yet to be banned.

But the discussion went on after I went to sleep.:shrug:


Well I stayed up long after I should have, but I thought it remained respectable the whole time, the whole point is to debate and share thoughts and ideas right?....Hope I didn't unknowingly cross any lines debating with him :scared:

[Justice_Dawg]

Hawk was banned!! Whatever for? I certainly didn't agree with him either, but I did enjoy debating with him last night :thumbdown:

Yeah! What are we gonna do now?? Sit here bored and agree on everything? YUCK!:thumbdown:

[bkwits]

I was lying on my basement stairs this afternoon, trying to figure out the placement of Vincent's body. My stairs are similar to the upper stairs at VRs, but I have 12 steps straight up. My staircase looks about the same width, has walls on both sides and is carpeted.

[Justice_Dawg]

Well I stayed up long after I should have, but I thought it remained respectable the whole time, the whole point is to debate and share thoughts and ideas right?....Hope I didn't unknowingly cross any lines debating with him :scared:

Someone has to report you for you to get in trouble. I didn't see where he said anything off color.

I've been banned 10 times. I come back, most do. LOL :tonguewag:

[bkwits]

Yeah! What are we gonna do now?? Sit here bored and agree on everything? YUCK!:thumbdown:

Have we scared everyone away?

[Justice_Dawg]

I was lying on my basement stairs this afternoon, trying to figure out the placement of Vincent's body. My stairs are similar to the upper stairs at VRs, but I have 12 steps straight up. My staircase looks about the same width, has walls on both sides and is carpeted.

and then.....

[Justice_Dawg]

Did my post last night make any sense???

I think if the child was mad at his parents, he would have waited until they were sleeping and Tim was out at the bar (as reported, every night!)

Investigations 101

It has to make sense.

Why kill two men in broad daylight (WITH A CHIPMUNK GUN, MAYBE) for a spanking Tiffany gave the night before?????????????????

[shelby77]

Someone has to report you for you to get in trouble. I didn't see where he said anything off color.

I've been banned 10 times. I come back, most do. LOL :tonguewag:


Oh is that how it works...so Hawk still gets to come back then, banning is just a temporary thing...I just hope it's not for too long then :unsure:

[muska]

Here are a few things that make me believe the confession is false -

While talking about the open truck door, the boy suggests that "if they were chasing Tim in their car, if Tim got out his side, I think he would have gotten shot faster....and so he ran out my dad's side of the car...maybe." I just don't see a kid thinking of this, if in reality he had killed the man and knew exactly what Tim had really done. It sounds as though he's trying to figure out what could have happened.

Says he doesn't know of Tim or his father fighting with anyone. If he's this great planner, why didn't he say they fought with this person or that, but instead he gives what seems to be an honest answer.

Neckels tries to trick him, "after you walked in, did you call for Tim?" He insists that he never called for Tim once he was in the house.

Says bad people live down the street but they have a blue car. Again,if he has supposedly planned this so well, why not say the speeding car was blue?

Neckels asks, "Did Tim shoot your dad?" You'd think this might stump the kid, he was already under a lot of pressure at this point in the interview. You'd think he might quickly say "yes, he did" or "no he didn't." But the boy just says, "I...I don't know."

He gives unusual details about the speeding white car...could only see that the back tires had no rims, could not see the front tires. If an eight year old was making this up, wouldn't he likely give all kinds of details about this mystery car?

There are more things like this that sound believable to me, and then at the end, there are all the things that don't add up...the gun in the closet, two shots instead of the correct numbers, the way he asks twice "why would I shoot Tim?" and the disbelief in his voice when he asks, "Shoot my dad?"

Avila asks him if he shot Tim accidentally. His answer, "I think so; maybe, but I don't...I don't think so. I don't know." Not very convincing if you ask me.

I just think that if a kid were making up a story, the story would be different from what this one is. I think it gives an eight year old too much credit to think he planned his story this well. I suppose there's still some chance someone planned it for him but I think more likely, the beginning of the "interview/confession" was the truth.

Well, it's late enough for me so good night all!

[bkwits]

and then.....

Well there is a hall alongside the one wall so that I can imagine my basement floor as the landing then the right angle (hall for the lower staircase. So I can't remember if you are going UP the the upper stairs would the lower stairs be to your left or right.

I hope you can make sense of that.

[shelby77]

Did my post last night make any sense???

I think if the child was mad at his parents, he would have waited until they were sleeping and Tim was out at the bar (as reported, every night!)

Investigations 101

It has to make sense.

Why kill two men in broad daylight (WITH A CHIPMUNK GUN, MAYBE) for a spanking Tiffany gave the night before?????????????????


That makes total sense to me! Why wouldn't the boy just shoot them as they were sleeping and claim it was an intruder? That surely makes more sense to even an 8 y/o, afterall what if they came in together that day??

Any takers on that one?

[muska]

Who decides who gets banned and how long does it last? It doesn't seem like he said anything to bother anyone so much. He always says he's on the boy's side no matter what.

How did you get banned 10 times Justice Dawg?

[muska]

That makes total sense to me! Why wouldn't the boy just shoot them as they were sleeping and claim it was an intruder? That surely makes more sense to even an 8 y/o, afterall what if they came in together that day??

Any takers on that one?

It makes more sense, especially since the police and prosecutor would like us to think this kid is some brilliant planner.

[Justice_Dawg]

Well there is a hall alongside the one wall so that I can imagine my basement floor as the landing then the right angle (hall for the lower staircase. So I can't remember if you are going UP the the upper stairs would the lower stairs be to your left or right.

I hope you can make sense of that.

The first shot just grazed VR's left arm. Why didn't he do something during the reload?????

[muska]

Well there is a hall alongside the one wall so that I can imagine my basement floor as the landing then the right angle (hall for the lower staircase. So I can't remember if you are going UP the the upper stairs would the lower stairs be to your left or right.

I hope you can make sense of that.

I'm pretty sure to the right, but not positive.

[Justice_Dawg]

Who decides who gets banned and how long does it last? It doesn't seem like he said anything to bother anyone so much. He always says he's on the boy's side no matter what.

How did you get banned 10 times Justice Dawg?
Coldwater does. That little red Exclamation point at the top of each post is the "rat button"

I've been on this board for over 5 years. :scared:

[bkwits]

The first shot just grazed VR's left arm. Why didn't he do something during the reload?????

How do we know that was the first shot?

[shelby77]

After thinking about it a few minutes LOL, the only thing I can think of is that Tim must have been an intended target, along with VR, and he knew he couldn't possibly do all 3, so he got the 2 he really wanted to in the small window of time that he had alone with Tim and his dad. I had never really considered Tim being an actual target before, just more of a witness that had to be eliminated, if indeed the boy is guilty of course. Hmm it gives me something to think about, IF the boy did it...it looks like he intended BOTH of them to be his targets, but WHY?

[Justice_Dawg]

That makes total sense to me! Why wouldn't the boy just shoot them as they were sleeping and claim it was an intruder? That surely makes more sense to even an 8 y/o, afterall what if they came in together that day??

Any takers on that one?
Sure, It wasn't the boy.
If he gets spanked for forgetting a paper What would they do if he had a gun with 10 bullets in his hand ready to destroy two grown men??? Knowing Tiffany was due any minute.


??????

[muska]

Coldwater does. That little red Exclamation point at the top of each post is the "rat button"

I've been on this board for over 5 years. :scared:

Does Coldwater just ban anyone who's complained about?

[muska]

Sure, It wasn't the boy.
If he gets spanked for forgetting a paper What would they do if he had a gun with 10 bullets in his hand ready to destroy two grown men??? Knowing Tiffany was due any minute.


??????

Good point!

[Justice_Dawg]

How do we know that was the first shot?

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/Autopsy-St-Johns-murder-victims-shot-in-the-head/gsb18gJlwkizzVprKFwW0A.cspx

Watch the video in the right corner.

[Justice_Dawg]

Does Coldwater just ban anyone who's complained about?

No, it has to be against the rules.
http://boards.insessiontrials.com/announcement.php?f=565

[shelby77]

Sure, It wasn't the boy.
If he gets spanked for forgetting a paper What would they do if he had a gun with 10 bullets in his hand ready to destroy two grown men??? Knowing Tiffany was due any minute.


??????


I agree it makes more sense it wasn't the boy, I was just allowing those who so easily and strongly believe in his guilt without all the facts an opportunity to explain yet another thing that doesn't fit with their theory. I don't expect a reasonable answer, but hey you never know...maybe there's something out there that hasn't occured to me yet. But I get the feeling they just believe to believe, not based on facts or evidence, but we shall see....anyone? Have a better explanation I mean....

[Justice_Dawg]

After thinking about it a few minutes LOL, the only thing I can think of is that Tim must have been an intended target, along with VR, and he knew he couldn't possibly do all 3, so he got the 2 he really wanted to in the small window of time that he had alone with Tim and his dad. I had never really considered Tim being an actual target before, just more of a witness that had to be eliminated, if indeed the boy is guilty of course. Hmm it gives me something to think about, IF the boy did it...it looks like he intended BOTH of them to be his targets, but WHY?

I don't think he could have gotten 2 people.

How did he know sound wouldn't travel outside for Tim to hear shots, or the other way around?

He's 8.

Would he think to kill a witness????

Red Flags waving all over the place here. :patriot:

[Justice_Dawg]

What would the boy have done if the men didn't die? If they were quick enough to grab him.

I don't think he'd have the nerve or (talent) to even try something like this at age 8.

[bkwits]

What would the boy have done if the men didn't die? If they were quick enough to grab him.

I don't think he'd have the nerve or (talent) to even try something like this at age 8.

I'm turning into a pumpkin. Good night all. I'll be back tomorrow. :seeya:

[Justice_Dawg]

I agree it makes more sense it wasn't the boy, I was just allowing those who so easily and strongly believe in his guilt without all the facts an opportunity to explain yet another thing that doesn't fit with their theory. I don't expect a reasonable answer, but hey you never know...maybe there's something out there that hasn't occured to me yet. But I get the feeling they just believe to believe, not based on facts or evidence, but we shall see....anyone? Have a better explanation I mean....

I just call them prosecutor lovers. They think if you are charged, you are guilty. Sad but true. I am proud to say that I help free wrongly imprisoned people. (Yes, I work for the defense IF I feel someone is innocent)

Don't get me wrong, people like Casey Anthony should be stoned then burned.

[shelby77]

Me too, off to bed, I should get to sleep at a decent hour tonight LOL :sleep:

[Justice_Dawg]

Me too, off to bed, I should get to sleep at a decent hour tonight LOL :sleep:

Ah come on, I'm bored.:blushing:

[Justice_Dawg]

I'm turning into a pumpkin. Good night all. I'll be back tomorrow. :seeya:

:thumbdown::thumbdown:

[shelby77]

I just call them prosecutor lovers. They think if you are charged, you are guilty. Sad but true. I am proud to say that I help free wrongly imprisoned people. (Yes, I work for the defense IF I feel someone is innocent)

Don't get me wrong, people like Casey Anthony should be stoned then burned.

Wow quite impressive, I don't do anything nearly as noble for a living, but I do try to keep an open mind about things and look at the facts as clearly as I can and then make an informed opinion about something, whichever side it may fall on.
But Casey Anthony, yea, words can not even begin to describe the horrible things I hope she has coming to her with her future prison population :cursing: Damn selfish b*&^$

[Crispy]

Hopefully I get my power cord tomorrow so I can go back to my computer and start posting! I do not like using my husbands computer. What do we think will happen at the status hearing? There is one this coming week isn't there? I would like to see the evaluation reports, but they aren't going to make those public are they?

Off to bed again, see ya tomorrow(hopefully I'll be back to normal)

[PensiveOne]

Why did Hawk get banned? Or did he get a timeout? :w00t:

Oh no! Can he come back? What did he do wrong? I really enjoy reading his posts. He has a lot of detail in his posts and he seems so fair.:confused:

[PensiveOne]

Someone has to report you for you to get in trouble. I didn't see where he said anything off color.

I've been banned 10 times. I come back, most do. LOL :tonguewag:

What could he have been reported for?! Can he tell us when he comes back, so that we don't make the same mistake?:scared:

[wolfi_2]

Oh no! Can he come back? What did he do wrong? I really enjoy reading his posts. He has a lot of detail in his posts and he seems so fair.:confused:


:huh:That´s bad, I had a good debate with him last day, so I hope he will back soon.:sad:

[PensiveOne]

I read through Sgt. Guinn's report again. I am just trying to figure out how the men were shot.

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/guinn.pdf

TR was shot 6 times with 8 wounds. One was into the top of his right forearm, exiting the inside of his upper arm and entering into the ribs just below the armpit stopping in his abdomen. How would that happen? That would make the shot kind of below him going up slightly? Unless he was seated, still in the truck? Maybe the shooter shot him from the passenger door and that is why it was open? Then he ran to the driveway towards the house, tried to open the door and was surprised by a second shooter inside the house who shot him twice in the chest? Shots 4,5, &6 ...4 to the back of the head, a gouge no entry, possibly the one that went through the screen door. 5 to the back right of head &6 is close range and left a keyhole wound but does not say if it is from the front or back? Does this bother anybody else? Doesn't this indicate a second shooter? How would he get shot in or around the truck and then in the chest. Unless the shooter could run in front of him, reload aim and fire before he gets inside the house? Just curious and JMO.

[PensiveOne]

The shells:

TR was shot 6 times, but only 4 shells were outside. 2 on the front porch. 1 on the front floor mat? Do they mean the floor mat of the truck or a welcome mat on the porch? 1 between the front door and door frame.

6 shells inside the house. 1 on 2nd step of bottom stair case. 1 on 3rd step of upper staircase. 1 on 4th step of upper staircase. The two on the upper staircase were against the south wall which would have been to the left side as you were going up. 1 on the upper landing of the 2nd floor and another in the hallway. 1 behind the front door, I assume this was from a shot at TR?

1 shell or shell casing in the gun. At the top of the report it just says shell, at the bottom it says shell casing...so that is unclear.

[PensiveOne]

The shells:

TR was shot 6 times, but only 4 shells were outside. 2 on the front porch. 1 on the front floor mat? Do they mean the floor mat of the truck or a welcome mat on the porch? 1 between the front door and door frame.

6 shells inside the house. 1 on 2nd step of bottom stair case. 1 on 3rd step of upper staircase. 1 on 4th step of upper staircase. The two on the upper staircase were against the south wall which would have been to the left side as you were going up. 1 on the upper landing of the 2nd floor and another in the hallway. 1 behind the front door, I assume this was from a shot at TR?

1 shell or shell casing in the gun. At the top of the report it just says shell, at the bottom it says shell casing...so that is unclear.

Both of the shell casings on the 2nd floor were next to marker V.

[PensiveOne]

------------------
| S |
| |
|------| upper |
|------| W|
|------| lower |
| E Stairs |
| |
|____|_|___N_____|
|
|drive
|way

Drude drawing so you can see directions, N = North, etc.

[PensiveOne]

------------------
| S |
| |
|------| upper |
|------| W|
|------| lower |
| E Stairs |
| |
|____|_|___N_____|
|
|drive
|way

Drude drawing so you can see directions, N = North, etc.

Dang, it didn't leave the spaces in...but I think you can still get the idea:tongueside:

[PensiveOne]

Dang, it didn't leave the spaces in...but I think you can still get the idea:tongueside:

The lower staircase faces to the East, then the landing on the East wall, then the upper stair case goes up to the West...if the drawing did not help...

[GentleBreeze]

I read through Sgt. Guinn's report again. I am just trying to figure out how the men were shot.

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/guinn.pdf

TR was shot 6 times with 8 wounds. One was into the top of his right forearm, exiting the inside of his upper arm and entering into the ribs just below the armpit stopping in his abdomen. How would that happen? That would make the shot kind of below him going up slightly? Unless he was seated, still in the truck? Maybe the shooter shot him from the passenger door and that is why it was open? Then he ran to the driveway towards the house, tried to open the door and was surprised by a second shooter inside the house who shot him twice in the chest? Shots 4,5, &6 ...4 to the back of the head, a gouge no entry, possibly the one that went through the screen door. 5 to the back right of head &6 is close range and left a keyhole wound but does not say if it is from the front or back? Does this bother anybody else? Doesn't this indicate a second shooter? How would he get shot in or around the truck and then in the chest. Unless the shooter could run in front of him, reload aim and fire before he gets inside the house? Just curious and JMO.

When a bullet hits bone it can deflect or ricochet and can go in many directions according to where it entered and what it hits next or how it spins the bullet fragment, when it hits bone or vital organs, especially a small caliber bullet. That is why the experts closely evaluate the entry wound because that is how they tell at what angle the bullet entered the body. The ME will be able to trace the pattern the bullet took once it entered the body.

I believe Tim was shot in the forearm first at about 24 feet from the home. He most likely had his arm close down by his side and that is why it wound up causing another injury. This shot was imo meant for the chest or Tim may have changed directions slightly and it hit his forearm instead.

I think the two chest shots were fired still from the home or in the porch area and doorway. One may have been done about 15 feet away and then another fired from about 5 or 6 feet, maybe even less before reaching the porch.

I believe Tim had already staggered forward and was already down and dying on the porch when the last three shots were fired. One only grazed his head. The shooter may have misjudged, since Tim had his knit cap on and it may have been bunched up on the back of his head. That is the one that went through the screen metal door. The second shot was probably done from about 3-4 feet away and the last shot was very close, much less than 2 feet away.

I am not sure if the shooter was inside the house the entire time. The first two shots weren't heard so the house could have buffered the noise, which isn't loud to begin with and then four shots were fired from the patio porch area where the bushes that were right at the patio could be used as a blind, where no one could see the shooter. I think that is why 4 casings were found outside

I think the shooter knew he had seriously wounded Tim and may have thought both shots landed in the chest area, instead of his forearm and chest. Once the shooter knew he had him wounded ..........he then stepped out onto the porch area behind the jasmine vines or whatever they are and finished killing him imo and that is why the neighbors said they only heard 3 or 4 pops.

With a single bolt action rifle all that can be determined is that is where the shooter was standing at the time when he ejected a spent casing in order to reload. I would think he could have been mostly stationary in some of them but moving as he ejected the casings in others. The gun spits the spent casing out so that it is ready to reload. He didn't have to physically take them out, only reload each time.

From the crime scene photos that I saw it showed the rifle with one live rim fire .22 LR bullet left in it.

imoo

[wolfi_2]

Personally, I think finding the truth is more important than Mirandizing a juvenile....Real justice is served by finding the truth and doing the very best we can to fix this child. Tossing the case because of a tequincality helps no one. I do not think he should be charged as an adult. There needs to be some form of punishment and treatment for real justice to be served.


I thing You would change your mind, if (and I don´t hope that it will ever be happened) one of your children get in "Juvi", I search a bit around in the net and I think it´s very easy for kid´s to get in "juvi " in the US for a very low reason, I read a while ago the book about the Raoul Wüthrich case (written by his dad),a ten year old Swiss boy whose family lived in the US....
http://www.mail-archive.com/ctrl@listserv.aol.com/msg28953.html
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/archive.html?siteSect=883&sid=452832&ty=st

[FurthurBB]

I thing You would change your mind, if (and I don´t hope that it will ever be happened) one of your children get in "Juvi", I search a bit around in the net and I think it´s very easy for kid´s to get in "juvi " in the US for a very low reason, I read a while ago the book about the Raoul Wüthrich case (written by his dad),a ten year old Swiss boy whose family lived in the US....
http://www.mail-archive.com/ctrl@listserv.aol.com/msg28953.html
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/archive.html?siteSect=883&sid=452832&ty=st


It seems to me that there was more going on in the household there than the Swiss newspapers want people to think, but, the Colorado authorties handled the case all wrong, especially considering the attention it was getting. IMO

[bkwits]

It seems to me that there was more going on in the household there than the Swiss newspapers want people to think, but, the Colorado authorties handled the case all wrong, especially considering the attention it was getting. IMO

From what I read on those links, I have to agree. Unless she is disabled, a five year old does not need help to urinate. An 11 year old is much too old to be innocently playing doctor.

However, I think therapy would be called for in that case. JMO