Jan. 2nd

[JD1974]

Judging by the photos that I saw of the house and the boys bedroom, not to mention the parent's bedroom, the house was not kept up and it goes without saying the boy was more than likely not taken care of too well either. He was made to walk around alone a few days each week for an hour. Why? The laundry in the bathroom is on the floor which tells me that someone is a bad shot or someone rummages around in the laundry looking for clothes to wear. The bathroom was horrendously filthy. I would not let my dogs live in that house, let alone a small boy.

I feel so sorry for this little boy.


That house was disgusting and if someone would of called CPS and they would of walked into that someone would of been in some trouble, or at least been made to clean it. All those adults and no one can clean up after themselves, then one little boy. Tiffany complaining about Vincent pretty much being a slob and dropping bullets all over, why didn't she just pick it up! All the adults were slobs, I would be mortified if pics of my house looking like that were put in newspapers.

[suzanne]

They're firing the cops, right? They're not actually promoting them? Say that's not correct.

Yeah,I guess they are promoting them.Oh my God.:crying:

[muska]

Well,no matter what happened.I am still going to be there for this little boy and I will be praying for him and praying he gets the help he needs.I don't feel juvie is the answer.It's just real sad all around.

Great post! I fully agree!

[susie31023]

Yeah,I guess they are promoting them.Oh my God.:crying:

How utterly disgusting. Why are these people not being fired and charged for their conduct in this case? This is a child who was not given even the basic rights of a criminal. Nothing about this case makes sense to me. I'm not saying he is or isn't guilty, just that he was 8 years old and there is no way anyone can convince me that he "knew" that he wasn't being held as a suspect by the cops. :cursing:

[susie31023]

I am not at all surprised there is gunshot residue on the boy's clothes. I had wondered in a post a while back if he might have been off playing with his gun instead of just "walking around the block." He knew he would get in trouble for that, so he left that part out.

He came in the house, dropped the gun on the dog's cage and ran upstairs to see his dad. He forgot the details of where he dropped the gun, so he said he put it in the closet.

He then was pushed from maybe firing the gun to maybe accidentally shooting them to maybe shooting them to put them out of their suffering to shooting them due to the spankings. It seems as though the boy kept looking for the answer that would get him in the least trouble and quickly lost his way due to two slick cops grilling him.

IMO

I still think the kid didn't do it!

I agree completely. Seems as if they had made up their minds:cursing: before they had any results back.IMO

[muska]

I don't have an opinion about whether Joel Barr is innocent or guilty but one thing in particular rings very true to me.....he writes about how Carlyon worked to inflame public opinion against him. He claims Carlyon did that rather than rely on valid evidence or credible witnesses. He complains about Candelaria too. As I read Barr's story, I took it with a grain of salt, but these remarks stuck with me.

This third grader is being tried in the court of public opinion. It's all very sad.

[bkwits]

Upon further review of the original article, I got to thinking....if this had taken place in St. John's, the 4 year old woud be in custody right now while they pondered charging him with attempted murder as an adult.:cool:

You say the story is off topic, but it is most certainly right on topic. You have a case of a young chid is accused of shooting another person with a loaded gun that was left available to him....hmmmmm......:glare:

It happened in Arizona, didn't it?

[muska]

It happened in Arizona, didn't it?

It happened in Ohio.

[bkwits]

It happened in Ohio.


Oh, yes, thanks. It was the 12 y.o. who shot his mother that happened in AZ. He was taught to shoot her handgun and it was left available and loaded. :blushing:

[bkwits]

I don't have an opinion about whether Joel Barr is innocent or guilty but one thing in particular rings very true to me.....he writes about how Carlyon worked to inflame public opinion against him. He claims Carlyon did that rather than rely on valid evidence or credible witnesses. He complains about Candelaria too. As I read Barr's story, I took it with a grain of salt, but these remarks stuck with me.

This third grader is being tried in the court of public opinion. It's all very sad.

I think it is backfiring though. I've lurked on many boards and lists of comments. Those I seen are overwhelmingly sympathetic to the child. IMO

[muska]

I think it is backfiring though. I've lurked on many boards and lists of comments. Those I seen are overwhelmingly sympathetic to the child. IMO

That's good to hear. I've also been seeing more sympathetic comments as time has gone on.

I have to get up in 6 hours so good night now!

[Details]

They're firing the cops, right? They're not actually promoting them? Say that's not correct.Anyone can run for an office - but for the other - she was promoted the day BEFORE the murders and interrogation - not after. Her promotion had nothing to do with this case - it happened before.

[Details]

IIRC, wasn't that because the judge issuing the warrent had personal connections to this case, and thus wasn't an impartial judge? They're supposed to recuse themselves, get another judge to deal with things like that.

[wolfi_2]

Well, the devil is in..Thanks for making that clear. However, I think she'd better keep her nose very clean after this. My understanding, multiple gunshot wounds indicating shots from above and below. That's correct, I believe. Gunshot residue on the boy's clothes. I don't think that's strange. He probably also handled the weapon. There's nothing yet that has been 'provided' as substantial proof the child is guilty that would make me believe that. Certainly not that incredible travesty of a 'taped' confession. How could any competent LE official with any experience think that taping a child with no adults present for him, let alone counsel, would ever be admissible?

I'd still like to know why Brewer has requested the forensic and physical evidence provided by the search warrant to be excluded.

The attorney is working for his client, so he is going each possible way to get the boy out there that is his job; his job is not finding the truth. And I know, someone here doesn’t like it.

[Justice_Dawg]

Anyone notice the quote from Micah on The Wood Law Office letterhead?

Gives me comfort.
:rose:

Where is it? I didn't see it.

[PensiveOne]

Thank you, PensiveOne. This needed to be said. I am usually only lurking, but I needed to log on to thank you for this.

You are welcome.

[Justice_Dawg]

IIRC, wasn't that because the judge issuing the warrent had personal connections to this case, and thus wasn't an impartial judge? They're supposed to recuse themselves, get another judge to deal with things like that.

Yes, so warrant no good.:tonguewag: If Judge Roca goes by the law, it should be thrown out today. I really don't see how he could get around it. There is sworn testimony that the judge knew VR and CR.
I think we are going to find out a lot today. JMHO:biggrin:

[PensiveOne]

I remember that they took Tiffany's clothes to test as well. I wonder if they will disclose the results of those tests? Or if they even did those GSR tests on her clothes. In the article that I posted last night from the GSR expert it sounds like if you are around somebody who shoots the transfer happens easily. The shape that house was in they may all have GSR all over their clothes. Is there any way that the defense can get Tiffany's clothes tested if the prosecution did not?

[Justice_Dawg]

I remember that they took Tiffany's clothes to test as well. I wonder if they will disclose the results of those tests? Or if they even did those GSR tests on her clothes. In the article that I posted last night from the GSR expert it sounds like if you are around somebody who shoots the transfer happens easily. The shape that house was in they may all have GSR all over their clothes. Is there any way that the defense can get Tiffany's clothes tested if the prosecution did not?

I looked last night. I can't find where they say they took Tiffany's cloths.

[PensiveOne]

I looked last night. I can't find where they say they took Tiffany's cloths.

I will look, too. I remember they said it, but I don't remember where it was.

[Justice_Dawg]

Clothing worn by a child accused of murder in St. Johns tested positive for gunshot residue and his fingerprints were found on a box of ammunition, according to lab reports disclosed Monday.

But independent experts question the significance of both pieces of evidence.

The boy's clothing was not collected until the day after his father and a friend were shot and killed, and his skin was never tested for traces of gunshot residue. The boy, who turned 9 last month, frequently hunted with his father and could have held the box of .22-caliber cartridges or come into contact with residue at any time.

A report from the Bexar County Criminal Investigation Lab in Texas says more than three-dozen particles of lead, antimony and barium were found on a long-sleeved shirt and denim pants the boy wore the day his father and a friend were killed. Michael Martinez, a forensic scientist who analyzed the garments, concluded that the clothing may have come in contact with, or been close to, a discharged firearm.

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2009/01/06/20090106stjohns.html

[Justice_Dawg]

Steven Howard, a Michigan attorney and expert on shooting reconstruction, said tens of thousands of microscopic particles are expelled when a firearm is discharged. Upon learning that the St. Johns boy's clothes were collected a day after the crime - and that his skin was not tested at all - Howard criticized investigators. "Number 1, they're stupid," he said. "Number 2, they're stupid. Number 3, they're stupid. . . . This is just a case of poor police work."
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2009/01/06/20090106stjohns.html

:lol::lol::lol:

[wolfi_2]

Steven Howard, a Michigan attorney and expert on shooting reconstruction, said tens of thousands of microscopic particles are expelled when a firearm is discharged. Upon learning that the St. Johns boy's clothes were collected a day after the crime - and that his skin was not tested at all - Howard criticized investigators. "Number 1, they're stupid," he said. "Number 2, they're stupid. Number 3, they're stupid. . . . This is just a case of poor police work."
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2009/01/06/20090106stjohns.html

:lol::lol::lol:


I like number 3 and number 2 maybe number 1 also

[Justice_Dawg]

I like number 3 and number 2 maybe number 1 also

I can't stop laughing!! :lol::lol::lol:

It's SO SAD, but SO TRUE!

[Justice_Dawg]

There is no report on the shoes. But then again they have ever been washed. LOL

10 shots x 10's of thousands of particles each expelled. They come up with 3 dozen?
Like CR said, he didn't fire the gun that day.

[muska]

There is no report on the shoes. But then again they have ever been washed. LOL

10 shots x 10's of thousands of particles each expelled. They come up with 3 dozen?
Like CR said, he didn't fire the gun that day.

The expert, Howard, said he would expect to find dozens of particles under the circumstances, and that GSR is useless in proving guilt.

Also - The FBI and other LE agencies have stopped using GSR tests because cross-contamination and other problems can lead to dubious conclusions.

And - This is just a case of poor police work.

[Justice_Dawg]

The expert, Howard, said he would expect to find dozens of particles under the circumstances, and that GSR is useless in proving guilt.

Also - The FBI and other LE agencies have stopped using GSR tests because cross-contamination and other problems can lead to dubious conclusions.

And - This is just a case of poor police work.

Nice summary. :biggrin:

[PensiveOne]

Clothing worn by a child accused of murder in St. Johns tested positive for gunshot residue and his fingerprints were found on a box of ammunition, according to lab reports disclosed Monday.

But independent experts question the significance of both pieces of evidence.

The boy's clothing was not collected until the day after his father and a friend were shot and killed, and his skin was never tested for traces of gunshot residue. The boy, who turned 9 last month, frequently hunted with his father and could have held the box of .22-caliber cartridges or come into contact with residue at any time.

A report from the Bexar County Criminal Investigation Lab in Texas says more than three-dozen particles of lead, antimony and barium were found on a long-sleeved shirt and denim pants the boy wore the day his father and a friend were killed. Michael Martinez, a forensic scientist who analyzed the garments, concluded that the clothing may have come in contact with, or been close to, a discharged firearm.

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2009/01/06/20090106stjohns.html

Three dozen particles! He could have gotten that anywhere...from picking up the gun, from touching someone, from hugging his stepmother or just from inside the home where people regularly shot weapons. Thanks, Justice Dawg.

[Justice_Dawg]

Three dozen particles! He could have gotten that anywhere...from picking up the gun, from touching someone, from hugging his stepmother or just from inside the home where people regularly shot weapons. Thanks, Justice Dawg.

He said he laid down by his dad too.

[muska]

Yeah, I asked about that earlier today. Was it because the judge and Romero or Romans (I'm not sure which one) were hunting buddies?

It said the judge knew Vincent and the boy, but I never saw that they hunted together. Maybe, but I didn't see that.

[muska]

Where is it? I didn't see it.

Near the top of the most recent requests. It's very nice.

[muska]

I looked last night. I can't find where they say they took Tiffany's cloths.

Neckels and Avila told the boy that they were going to test his clothes and were going to get Tiffany's so they could test them also, but they were probably just saying that. I doubt they ever really did. I doubt if they even collected them. As far as the police department was concerned, the investigation was finished with the "confession." It may even have been finished earlier...as soon as they got together and discussed Tanya's statement.

[muska]

Story from the White Mountain Independent:
http://www.wmicentral.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20232756&BRD=2264&PAG=461&dept_id=505965&rfi=6

It says the competency evaluation for prosecution is in but hasn't been released due to an earlier request from defense. Wood says that "the issue of competency could be decided soon."

[muska]

I'm going to stick my neck out here and say this. I blame this on the boy's attorney. If he would have put together a "dream team" like Jose Baez did with his client, and OJ Simpson did with his client, this case would have gotten alot more media coverage than it has, this boy would have gained alot more public sympathy, the pressure would have been on, and the boy would stand a better chance for this case to be dismissed. The boy's attorney needed help from the beginning, and perhaps even turned it down, judging by some of the people who have volunteered their services and have been turned away. I know of at least one. He needed a high caliber forensic specialist, someone who specializes in civil rights AND child advocacy, someone who is not afraid to go in front of the cameras EVERY DAY if necessary and keep this case in the media's focus, and he needed a high powered someone who could challenge the investigation and break this case AND the prosecutor apart piece by piece in Court. He did not reach out and it's a real shame because now it is too late and it's at the expense of a little boy.

The psychological damage that has already been done to this boy from being insolated since at least October, from almost all human contact, plus being stifled (which is tantamount to child abuse) from talking about his feelings and his fears has damaged him already past the point of no return.

I'm going out on a limb here because I know that many of you are going to slam me for saying this, okay, but in my opinion, the blame rests squarely on the boy's attorney.

Wouldn't the boy's mother have the right to accept additional help if it was offered? I have wondered myself why no one else stepped up to the plate with an offer to help. It's sad if additional help was turned down.

[PensiveOne]

Neckels and Avila told the boy that they were going to test his clothes and were going to get Tiffany's so they could test them also, but they were probably just saying that. I doubt they ever really did. I doubt if they even collected them. As far as the police department was concerned, the investigation was finished with the "confession." It may even have been finished earlier...as soon as they got together and discussed Tanya's statement.

Thanks Muska. I looked at the reports again and in the Brewer interviews of Neckels and Avila. I couldn't find anything, but I may have missed it:( You are probably right, they may never have collected her clothing.

[LindaNJ1216]

edited

BTW I am in no way trying to say anything bad about your son, I am just asking you a hypothetical and how you would feel if this was happening to him and your family.

I would be beyond devestated!

[muska]

Thanks Muska. I looked at the reports again and in the Brewer interviews of Neckels and Avila. I couldn't find anything, but I may have missed it:( You are probably right, they may never have collected her clothing.

I'm thinking of the interview/"confession" with the boy. That's where either Neckels or Avila tells the boy that his clothes were collected and Tiffany's will be too. I don't think it's ever been reported that Tiffany's were actually collected for testing...not that I saw. I think it was just another story(nice word) they told the boy.

[LindaNJ1216]

That house was disgusting and if someone would of called CPS and they would of walked into that someone would of been in some trouble, or at least been made to clean it. All those adults and no one can clean up after themselves, then one little boy. Tiffany complaining about Vincent pretty much being a slob and dropping bullets all over, why didn't she just pick it up! All the adults were slobs, I would be mortified if pics of my house looking like that were put in newspapers.

When I was little my mother taught me to make sure I took a bath everyday & changed my underware incase I was in a car accident and always make sure my room is picked up and my bed was made every morning incase there was a fire! LOL

When I was little I imagined they would put photographs and huge headlines on the front page of the newspaper of folks that didn't.

And to this day...that's exactly what I do....and told my son the same thing. lol

[muska]

I have no links but I heard from "rumor" that there was one expert child advocate type attorney who offered her services and was turned down. I also know from the same source that a group of volunteers who deal with civil rights violations of children on trial, have offered their voluntary services and were told thanks but no thanks. It is a shame, I can't imagine not accepting help especially when it is dealing with a small impressionable and easily damaged child.

I can't imagine either! Maybe help could still be obtained. I remember that in the King brothers case in Florida, a high priced attorney offered help pretty far into the process. She was also turned down for some reason....I don't get it. Let's hope it means that Brewer/Wood have things fully under control.

[bkwits]

I like number 3 and number 2 maybe number 1 also


Thanks for the chuckle, Wolfie. :lol:

[GentleBreeze]

I agree completely. Seems as if they had made up their minds:cursing: before they had any results back.IMO

The results coming back in is certainly not helping this boy. The experts say absence of any gunshot residue can weigh heavily and point to innocence. That is not the case here or the results.

Three dozen particles found on his clothing is a significant amount, even the experts have said that. And we have to remember that this boy's clothing was not taken that day and after the murders he was allowed to be around family members, where more than likely, he hugged and touch several others, which would cause some of the GSR to fluff off his shirt and pants. In the Phil Spector murder case there was on one or two GSR particles found on him. So 36 GSR particles or more is a heck of a lot imo. Not sure if I have ever read or seen a case where the accused had that many GS particles found on them.

And more test results are going to come in.

imoo

[tif]

I can't imagine either! Maybe help could still be obtained. I remember that in the King brothers case in Florida, a high priced attorney offered help pretty far into the process. She was also turned down for some reason....I don't get it. Let's hope it means that Brewer/Wood have things fully under control.

I don't think we're in a position to know what kind of help the attorney has or hasn't accepted. There are factors other than the "expert's" resume to consider. For instance, some experts for hire are more interested in media attention for themselves than helping the client. The attorney is likely concerned about creating a media circus. The worst thing that could happen would be for the attorney to loose control of the case. It's possible the attorney is using someone under the radar.

I'm reminded of how Bill O'Reilly and Mark Klass tried to force the family of Elizabeth Smart to use their "expert" even though the family already had the FBI and the Utah police on the case. When the family refused, O'Reilly and Klass proceeded to vilify them to the point of coming within a hair of accusing the uncle of sexual abuse. I thought the behavior of both O'Reilly and Klass was disgusting.

[JD1974]

I love the last line "the boy has not been charged.":rolleyes:

Anyone think someone else could be charged for leaving a loaded weapon in a closet for a 4 year old to get to?
:glare:

I think someone should!

[LindaNJ1216]

there is just something really new to read...:crying::laugh:
rl]


you are not allowed to link another forums posts over here. You would need the posters permission.

[wolfi_2]

OK thank´s didnt know it, send it to the moderator to delete

[LindaNJ1216]

OK thank´s didnt know it, send it to the moderator to delete

Your welcome:thumbup:

[bkwits]

State has agreed to suppress so called confession but it may be used to impeach child if he testifies. Also CPS statement is suppressed. Woo hoo. :thumbsup:

[dgfred]

I love the last line "the boy has not been charged.":rolleyes:

Anyone think someone else could be charged for leaving a loaded weapon in a closet for a 4 year old to get to?
:glare:

Wasn't it a single shot rifle? That he somehow reloaded like 10 times :blink: ???

[wolfi_2]

The confession is out
-that´s the first really good news in this case.:smile:

[JD1974]

When I was little my mother taught me to make sure I took a bath everyday & changed my underware incase I was in a car accident and always make sure my room is picked up and my bed was made every morning incase there was a fire! LOL

When I was little I imagined they would put photographs and huge headlines on the front page of the newspaper of folks that didn't.

And to this day...that's exactly what I do....and told my son the same thing. lol

My mom told me about the clean underwear LOL I am always cleaning because I have people coming over a lot, plus my kids would die if they came home with friends from school and the house was a mess lol

[bkwits]

My mom told me about the clean underwear LOL I am always cleaning because I have people coming over a lot, plus my kids would die if they came home with friends from school and the house was a mess lol

Yeah, my grandma told me too. Makes you wonder what they were thinking. Your child gets in an accident and all your're worried about is that they have on clean underwear???

[tif]

you are not allowed to link another forums posts over here. You would need the posters permission.

I looked in the pinned threads for board rules when I registered, but I couldn't find a list of board do's and don'ts like I've seen on other boards. I'd appreciate a link if you have it.:smile:

[JD1974]

Yeah, my grandma told me too. Makes you wonder what they were thinking. Your child gets in an accident and all your're worried about is that they have on clean underwear???


LMAO I never thought of it that way!!

[wolfi_2]

I looked in the pinned threads for board rules when I registered, but I couldn't find a list of board do's and don'ts like I've seen on other boards. I'd appreciate a link if you have it.:smile:

In this case Linda was right, it wasn´t fair!, sorry again

[bkwits]

The results coming back in is certainly not helping this boy. The experts say absence of any gunshot residue can weigh heavily and point to innocence. That is not the case here or the results.

Three dozen particles found on his clothing is a significant amount, even the experts have said that. And we have to remember that this boy's clothing was not taken that day and after the murders he was allowed to be around family members, where more than likely, he hugged and touch several others, which would cause some of the GSR to fluff off his shirt and pants. In the Phil Spector murder case there was on one or two GSR particles found on him. So 36 GSR particles or more is a heck of a lot imo. Not sure if I have ever read or seen a case where the accused had that many GS particles found on them.

And more test results are going to come in.

imoo

When def. atty Brewer asked LEO Neckels if she noticed anything on the child's jeans, when she collected them for evidence, she noted that they were very dirty. IMO, he had worn them for some time, not just one day. She did not note the single spot of blood on the jeans. The jeans and the shirt were bagged together, and as GSR is easily transferred, GSR on both articles only means that some was picked up on one or both. IMO

[Justice_Dawg]

State has agreed to suppress so called confession but it may be used to impeach child if he testifies. Also CPS statement is suppressed. Woo hoo. :thumbsup:

:thumbsup::thumbsup:


I got a 20 day continuance. : (

[Justice_Dawg]

Thank you GOD!!!! And God Bless Judge Roca for ruling on this immediately.

Now let's pray that search warrant goes too.

IMO

Fingers and toes crossed!!!

[JD1974]

State has agreed to suppress so called confession but it may be used to impeach child if he testifies. Also CPS statement is suppressed. Woo hoo. :thumbsup:



The state agreed to supress it? Why? The media? Or are they going to say they had no choice but to get rid of the confession, the kids IS the murderer but they just can't prove it now...throw LE under the bus

[Justice_Dawg]

Thank you GOD!!!! And God Bless Judge Roca for ruling on this immediately.

Now let's pray that search warrant goes too.

IMO

How do we know it was a ruling?

[wolfi_2]

Wolfi-where did you learn this? Do you have a link?

two post above by bkwits, but I forgot to quote.

[Justice_Dawg]

State has agreed to suppress so called confession but it may be used to impeach child if he testifies. Also CPS statement is suppressed. Woo hoo. :thumbsup:

Where did you get this info?

I have a really good reason to ask. :biggrin:

[bkwits]

Where did you get this info?

I have a really good reason to ask. :biggrin:

It is a filing on the court site.

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/


Judge Roca did not rule on this the Pros agreed to the suppression. Pros is fighting the suppression of the search warrent.

[Justice_Dawg]

Justice,

It is on the link-bunch of new stuff up. Check that out!

I know!!! They are all signed by Micheal B Whiting

[Justice_Dawg]

They do seem to be fighting for the search warrant however, which may be for the best, especially if that any evidence gathered may be admissable for another trial of another possible defendant. I would hate for them to find out who the real killer is and then not be able to use any of the evidence collected at the scene.


IMO

Exactly. :smile:

[bkwits]

The state agreed to supress it? Why? The media? Or are they going to say they had no choice but to get rid of the confession, the kids IS the murderer but they just can't prove it now...throw LE under the bus

I think it was a lost cause to get that admitted as a confession. Pros. is hoping to save search warrent. Also, to me at least, the "confession" was very weak and pointed as much to innocence as guilt. IMO

[tif]

They do seem to be fighting for the search warrant however, which may be for the best, especially if that any evidence gathered may be admissable for another trial of another possible defendant. I would hate for them to find out who the real killer is and then not be able to use any of the evidence collected at the scene.IMO

I don't think anyone who didn't live in the house could argue that it was an unreasonable search with regard to them, so it could be used against a killer who lived elsewhere. Legal people please correct me if I'm wrong.

On the same note, if Tiffany had given the police permission to search the house would LE even need a warrant?

The prosecution knew the "confession" was a lost cause. I can't see Brewer allowing the boy to testify.

[Justice_Dawg]

I don't think anyone who didn't live in the house could argue that it was an unreasonable search with regard to them, so it could be used against a killer who lived elsewhere. Legal people please correct me if I'm wrong.

On the same note, if Tiffany had given the police permission to search the house would LE even need a warrant?

The prosecution knew the "confession" was a lost cause. I can't see Brewer allowing the boy to testify.

The chief stopped the investigation because of "the confession"

I Wonder when his job will be open. :biggrin:

[suzanne]

In this case Linda was right, it wasn´t fair!, sorry again

It's ok.You were only trying to help.It's all good.You are doing great.

[Kara]

you are not allowed to link another forums posts over here. You would need the posters permission.
Since when? I know you're not allowed to copy/paste because of copyright rules, but linking has always been permissible.

[Kara]

State has agreed to suppress so called confession but it may be used to impeach child if he testifies. Also CPS statement is suppressed. Woo hoo. :thumbsup:

Good news, but not surprising, IMO.

What will surprise is me is the child is deemed competent to stand trial.

[Kara]

this is correct
Thanks for the info Ma'am. :seeya:

[Justice_Dawg]

Since when? I know you're not allowed to copy/paste because of copyright rules, but linking has always been permissible.

We love you Kara.


I think he will be deemed incompetent.

JMHO

[bkwits]

Good news, but not surprising, IMO.

What will surprise is me is the child is deemed competent to stand trial.

You know, the defense's expert has found him incompetent. The finding from pros. expert has not been revealed. If pros expert finds incompetency is it all over?

[muska]

Does anyone know if the therapist issue was addressed at the hearing? I think he must desperately need someone he could talk with without having to be concerned about what he says. Why isn't a therapist somehow covered under some kind of patient-doctor privileges? Why would a therapist have to testify against a patient?

[Justice_Dawg]

You know, the defense's expert has found him incompetent. The finding from pros. expert has not been revealed. If pros expert finds incompetency is it all over?

Yes.
01/06/2009

If the court were to rule the boy incompetent to stand trial, an attempt could be made to restore the boy to competency. If it could not be done within 240 days, as stated by ARS 8-291.08, or found futile to try, then the court would dismiss the case with prejudice, meaning charges could not be refiled.


http://www.wmicentral.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20232756&BRD=2264&PAG=461&dept_id=505965&rfi=6

[bkwits]

Does anyone know if the therapist issue was addressed at the hearing? I think he must desperately need someone he could talk with without having to be concerned about what he says. Why isn't a therapist somehow covered under some kind of patient-doctor privileges? Why would a therapist have to testify against a patient?

A therapist is not necessarily a medical doctor. I had the idea that a court appointed therapist would not have immunity. Maybe some law types could answer this. Could a therapist work for the def. atty as "work product."

[muska]

We love you Kara.


I think he will be deemed incompetent.

JMHO

What if prosecution has managed to find someone who will say a third grader is competent? It would be ridiculous but you never know. What do you think happens then?

In a recent article, Carlyon said a trial or plea agreement would take place by April unless the boy is found incompetent and possibly able to be restored to competence within the time frame. Does that suggest Carlyon would try to go ahead with a trial even if the boy is found incompetent by both examiners?

[suzanne]

You know, the defense's expert has found him incompetent. The finding from pros. expert has not been revealed. If pros expert finds incompetency is it all over?

This is what I have always said and thought would happen.Will we know this today or when will we know this?I do believe Judge Roca does have the power to order mental help for this child.He is just too young.

[tif]

this is correct

Thanks for clarifying, but is there a link to a list of do's and dont's? I couldn't find it anywhere.

[muska]

A therapist is not necessarily a medical doctor. I had the idea that a court appointed therapist would not have immunity. Maybe some law types could answer this. Could a therapist work for the def. atty as "work product."

Maybe they could just find a psychiatrist - an MD should be covered, wouldn't you think?

I saw something about this. I thought I read that the judge has some discrepancy about what to allow. I'll try to find it.

[Crispy]

A therapist is not necessarily a medical doctor. I had the idea that a court appointed therapist would not have immunity. Maybe some law types could answer this. Could a therapist work for the def. atty as "work product."


I'm not a law type but I do remember the defense attorney saying that he wouldn't want to use anything that was said to her in his case. That she wasn't going to be there in that capacity. I always thought that if the court appointed a therapist that anything said to the therapist was allowed into court. I've been wrong before though.

[Justice_Dawg]

What if prosecution has managed to find someone who will say a third grader is competent? It would be ridiculous but you never know. What do you think happens then?

In a recent article, Carlyon said a trial or plea agreement would take place by April unless the boy is found incompetent and possibly able to be restored to competence within the time frame. Does that suggest Carlyon would try to go ahead with a trial even if the boy is found incompetent by both examiners?

Prosecutors have no ties to that Dr. in Tuson that did the testing.

moo

[Justice_Dawg]

Maybe they could just find a psychiatrist - an MD should be covered, wouldn't you think?

I saw something about this. I thought I read that the judge has some discrepancy about what to allow. I'll try to find it.

Give him a priest! CR is Catholic. The priest shouldn't be able to say anything against him!!!

[Crispy]

Thanks for clarifying, but is there a link to a list of do's and dont's? I couldn't find it anywhere.

Here is a couple links that might help

http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?t=338376

http://boards.insessiontrials.com/forumdisplay.php?f=18

[PensiveOne]

Give him a priest! CR is Catholic. The priest shouldn't be able to say anything against him!!!

The Catholic church has very qualified therapists, psychologists and psychiatrists.

[Crispy]

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/01/06/20090106childcharged.html

He also wants a picture of his mom for his cell.

[Kara]

You know, the defense's expert has found him incompetent. The finding from pros. expert has not been revealed. If pros expert finds incompetency is it all over?
I think it can be tabled for a short time...but if he is not found to be competent within a certain time frame (less than a year, I can't remember exactly how long) the case will close.

If the child did this, I would like to see some form of forced therapy....of course, he's going to need therapy whether he did this or not.

moo

[Justice_Dawg]

The Catholic church has very qualified therapists, psychologists and psychiatrists.

I went to Catholic school all my life. :biggrin:

[Crispy]

A little bit more info.

http://www.ktar.com/?nid=6&sid=1019177

[Justice_Dawg]

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/01/06/20090106childcharged.html

He also wants a picture of his mom for his cell.

Now you made me cry!!! Investigators don't cry!!!
They have him in shackles AGAIN

[tif]

Thanks for clarifying, but is there a link to a list of do's and dont's? I couldn't find it anywhere.

Coldwater,

OK, I found it after realizing that the default display option was set to 30 days. It shows zero threads without changing the display. Maybe that thread should be pinned.

[Crispy]

Now you made me cry!!! Investigators don't cry!!!

Sorry!! :wub:

I guess I'm a naturally leery person because I think it's odd that they want to drop the charge against him and now they are agreeing to suppress the confession and the CPS statement. Makes me wonder what they are up to. On another note, I'm glad the new attorney jumped right in and didn't cause a delay.

[IAMME]

GRRRRRRRRRR, they had him in SHACKLES again????? :cursing: I also wonder where Eryn was today....hopefully she went home to spend some time with her other child, this has got to be really hard on that kid too.......

[Details]

IMO - they're trying to reverse some bad PR, with a few obvious decisions. The confession was never, ever going to make it to court - they knew that, IMO, that's why they released it to the public, to taint the jury with the info that was inadmissible, in so very many ways. And same goes for the CPS worker statements.

This isn't stuff I think they ever expected to be able to have. Admitting that without a pointless and futile fight isn't anything but a bit of good PR they could really use as they try to charge a child with a crime he didn't understand enough to commit (any more than the 4 year old did), based on a flimsy and rushed 'investigation' (can you really call what they did an investigation?).

[PensiveOne]

I went to Catholic school all my life. :biggrin:

Me, too:) One of my best friend's brothers is a Priest and a psychiatrist in Louisville, Ky. I haven't talked to her in many years though.

[suzanne]

Now you made me cry!!! Investigators don't cry!!!
They have him in shackles AGAIN


This really bothers me too.

[PensiveOne]

Brewer even offered to pay for the therapist himself. I really like this guy:)

[Justice_Dawg]

This really bothers me too.

Go to the bottom and read the comments:

http://www.azfamily.com/news/homepagetopstory/stories/phoenix-local-news-010509-gunresidue.3f510011.html

[Justice_Dawg]

Brewer even offered to pay for the therapist himself. I really like this guy:)

Between him and Wood, they are a dream team. :smile:

[GentleBreeze]

State has agreed to suppress so called confession but it may be used to impeach child if he testifies. Also CPS statement is suppressed. Woo hoo. :thumbsup:

If the State has agreed then it shows they never thought they would need the confession to prove their case in the first place, imo.

imoo

[Justice_Dawg]

I don't know how anyone's heart cannot break for this child. I wonder how long his mother will be away...I read that she had things to take care of in her home state. I can't imagine the child without her daily visits! It just seems like too much for anyone, even an adult. I hope his grandmother is seeing him a lot and that he feels loved by her. It seems that the judge would okay some king of private mental health counseling before this child is just crushed.

Eryn had to go see her other baby. She hasn't seen her since Nov. 6th. She will be back in a few days.

[IAMME]

Eryn had to go see her other baby. She hasn't seen her since Nov. 6th. She will be back in a few days.

Good, she needs sometime away, so she can recharge, it would be heartbreaking to have to be away from one for so long even if you were doing it bc the other one had a greater need, I HATE those choices as a parent, and i have never faced one as serious as this one so I cant imagine how she is doing it.....

How long has it been taking for them to post the hearing transcripts, anyone know??

[wolfi_2]

I didn´t know that she had another child. I hope he will allowed to get a picture of his mom for his cell.
-Shackled again, he must be a very powerful little 9 year old boy, that´s disgusting!:thumbdown:

[muska]

Eryn had to go see her other baby. She hasn't seen her since Nov. 6th. She will be back in a few days.

I change my mind back and forth...sometimes I think Eryn would be better off if she were older and had more experience to rely upon and then sometimes I think it's better she's so young - more energy and resilience! I just pray that she has the strength and ability to hang in there for her son!

[Justice_Dawg]

I didn´t know that she had another child. I hope he will allowed to get a picture of his mom for his cell.
-Shackled again, he must be a very powerful little 9 year old boy, that´s disgusting!:thumbdown:

She has a little girl. :smile:

[Justice_Dawg]

I'm glad you are upbeat, JD. I feel sick about all of this and feel like I'm on a roller coaster following this case. I was so high today thinking things were going so well, but when I heard the way Roca was acting, allowing the boy to be shackled and not ruling on the picture of the mother right away and still having issues with the request for a counselor, I got really low.

I keep praying for this boy.

I have a feeling everything will be alright for this boy.

I would really love to go break him out! :wink:

[Kara]

If the State has agreed then it shows they never thought they would need the confession to prove their case in the first place, imo.

imoo

Or they know it would never be admissable due to the way it was obtained. That's why it was released to the public, to try build public support for their case against the child.

moo

[wolfi_2]

It´s just unbelievable the he had to ask for a picture. And I think there still will be the wall of glass during the visit´s, -from the St. Johns juvenile detention center handbook all visit´s are non contact, I ********** (censored self-control).
I see more and more that the system isn´t set up for that young children, that’s against all human feeling´s, it´s just horrible.

[Justice_Dawg]

Or they know it would never be admissable due to the way it was obtained. That's why it was released to the public, to try build public support for their case against the child.

moo

I think it backfired on them.

[Justice_Dawg]

It´s just unbelievable the he had to ask for a picture. And I think there still will be the wall of glass during the visit´s, -from the St. Johns juvenile detention center handbook all visit´s are non contact, I ********** (censored self-control).
I see more and more that the system isn´t set up for that young children, that’s against all human feeling´s, it´s just horrible.

I totally know how you feel.

[wolfi_2]

It looks like they would have the punishment now, just in case they can´t get it later.

[Kara]

I think it backfired on them.
Yep...but I believe they thought it was a good move when they did it. They thought it would sway public opinion in their favor.

[IAMME]

I have a feeling everything will be alright for this boy.

I would really love to go break him out! :wink:


OMG LOL, that is what I keep saying, and I think we would get away with it I KNOW we are smarter than the LE!!! Im also sure there is a handy 5 yo we could frame...........:tongue:

[suzanne]

I'm glad you are upbeat, JD. I feel sick about all of this and feel like I'm on a roller coaster following this case. I was so high today thinking things were going so well, but when I heard the way Roca was acting, allowing the boy to be shackled and not ruling on the picture of the mother right away and still having issues with the request for a counselor, I got really low.

I keep praying for this boy.

What was the story on Judge Roca not ruling on a picture of his mother right away?He did rule the little boy can have one right?Even casey anthony gets to have pictures of her daughter Caylee in her cell right?She just choices not too right?They really should give him a picture of his mother.

[muska]

Or they know it would never be admissable due to the way it was obtained. That's why it was released to the public, to try build public support for their case against the child.

moo

Carlyon said that prosecution's agreement to suppress the "confession" does not mean they think it was obtained illegally. Sure!!

Is this the end of the "confession" or might the judge just throw it out entirely, regardless of whether the boy testified? As someone else said, I can't imagine Brewer putting CR on the stand anyway - he's much too agreeable to suggestion.

[bkwits]

Or they know it would never be admissable due to the way it was obtained. That's why it was released to the public, to try build public support for their case against the child.

moo

ITA, it was pitiful. IMO:cursing:

[Justice_Dawg]

There is no "jury pool" to taint

They didn't know that then.

[Crispy]

I love the comment about it maybe being a murder suicide:blink:

That did make me sigh a little bit.

[Crispy]

They didn't know that then.

You're right on that one. The judge didn't deny a jury trial until after the confession video was released.

I wish they'd get rid of that stupid gag order.

[muska]

Here's an example of what some prosecutors will do when it's in their own interest:

http://www.propublica.org/article/in-90s-burris-sought-death-penalty-for-innocent-man-1231

Burris may become the next senator for Illinois. At the time of this case, he was Attorney General/Illinois. He pursued the death penalty against a man he knew was probably innocent. The article says he was running for governor and wanted to look "tough on crime."

[Justice_Dawg]

Here's an example of what some prosecutors will do when it's in their own interest:

http://www.propublica.org/article/in-90s-burris-sought-death-penalty-for-innocent-man-1231

Burris may become the next senator for Illinois. At the time of this case, he was Attorney General/Illinois. He pursued the death penalty against a man he knew was probably innocent. The article says he was running for governor and wanted to look "tough on crime."


I know his kind well. :cursing:

[Justice_Dawg]

If Whiting is saying the 1000 spaking statement is out, so is the search warrant and search warrant return on that right?

[Crispy]

If Whiting is saying the 1000 spaking statement is out, so is the search warrant and search warrant return on that right?

I was wondering about that, but I didn't know what they asked for or received from that warrant. Was that the one where they asked for all writings and such?

[Justice_Dawg]

I was wondering about that, but I didn't know what they asked for or received from that warrant. Was that the one where they asked for all writings and such?

Yes it was.

[PensiveOne]

I don't think I have seen this posted. If it has been I apologize. It says the Mom listened by phone, that other family members were there and that he has some blonde in his hair now:)

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/01/06/20090106childcharged.html

[Justice_Dawg]

Eryn was there by phone today:

Young Ariz. murder suspect's statement off-limits
The next hearing in the case is scheduled for Jan. 21.:cursing:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iG_nB7rdOr3TiaL5ph3YDR5qNNTAD95HT6080

[Justice_Dawg]

I don't think I have seen this posted. If it has been I apologize. It says the Mom listened by phone, that other family members were there and that he has some blonde in his hair now:)

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/01/06/20090106childcharged.html

LOL :tonguewag:

[PensiveOne]

LOL :tonguewag:

Too funny:w00t:

[bkwits]

Here's an example of what some prosecutors will do when it's in their own interest:

http://www.propublica.org/article/in-90s-burris-sought-death-penalty-for-innocent-man-1231

Burris may become the next senator for Illinois. At the time of this case, he was Attorney General/Illinois. He pursued the death penalty against a man he knew was probably innocent. The article says he was running for governor and wanted to look "tough on crime."\\\

Thank you. I had posted on the politics thread about this. His Asst. AG Mary Kenney sent him memos citing problems with Cruz's conviction. Cruz had been on death row for about 7 yrs. then I believe. Burris ignored the memos and Kenney resigned in protest. The IL voters have turned Burris down every time since when he has run for office.

[muska]

I just read a post after the story at channel 3. The person wrote that the prosecution said it will not use the "confession" at trial, but that it's still in evidence. She was speculating that once it's tossed, the boy would be released. Does this sound right at all?

[Justice_Dawg]

The boy also has been examined by a prosecution expert, but those results haven't yet been disclosed, though the deadline to submit the report to the court has expired.
-----------------------

This Judge needs to $hit or get off the Pot!
MOO IMO JMHO

[Justice_Dawg]

I just read a post after the story at channel 3. The person wrote that the prosecution said it will not use the "confession" at trial, but that it's still in evidence. She was speculating that once it's tossed, the boy would be released. Does this sound right at all?


No, not at all.

[wolfi_2]

I like what the spokesman for the Romans family, John Andreas said, one of the real human statements I read in this case. I will toll my respect for such a statement from a victim's Family! thank You John Andreas.
just read the last few lines
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/01/06/20090106childcharged.html

[GentleBreeze]

I like what the spokesman for the Romans family, John Andreas said, one of the real human statements I read in this case. I will toll my respect for such a statement from a victim's Family! thank You John Andreas.
just read the last few lines
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/01/06/20090106childcharged.html

“I'm hoping that he'd be able to get some help and maybe lead a productive life later,” Andreas said.

It sounds like they still want justice for Romans but Andreas does hope that the boy receives therapy so he can lead a productive life later on.

imoo

[wolfi_2]

Eryn was there by phone today:

Young Ariz. murder suspect's statement off-limits
The next hearing in the case is scheduled for Jan. 21.:cursing:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iG_nB7rdOr3TiaL5ph3YDR5qNNTAD95HT6080

further two week´s lost.:mad:

[Crispy]

further two week´s lost.:mad:

No doubt. He has been in custody since what Nov. 6? That's a long time to be away from family and any since of normalcy for an 8/9 year old.

[wolfi_2]

I want to know what the shackle are for, just want him to know he is bad? I don´t believe he is dangerous to anybody in court, no times he can run far away.

[wolfi_2]

there is a new filling at the St. Johns Court site, if I understand it correct, he get out on probation? maybe I´m wrong?

-the juvenile shall be released to staff-

[Justice_Dawg]

there is a new filling at the St. Johns Court site, if I understand it correct, he get out on probation? maybe I´m wrong?

-the juvenile shall be released to staff-

I'll be right back

[Kara]

there is a new filling at the St. Johns Court site, if I understand it correct, he get out on probation? maybe I´m wrong?

-the juvenile shall be released to staff-
The mention of the juvenile detention center leads me to believe he is still in custody and shall remain so through unspecified dates.

[muska]

there is a new filling at the St. Johns Court site, if I understand it correct, he get out on probation? maybe I´m wrong?

-the juvenile shall be released to staff-

Maybe it has something to do with the mother being out of the state.

[wolfi_2]

Maybe it has something to do with the mother being out of the state.

confusing, isn´t it?

[Justice_Dawg]

there is a new filling at the St. Johns Court site, if I understand it correct, he get out on probation? maybe I´m wrong?

-the juvenile shall be released to staff-

Ok, from what I am hearing it means he will go on probation 1/21/09.

Released to staff just means that is who will transport him to his destination.

[Kara]

Ok, from what I am hearing it means he will go on probation 1/21/09.

Released to staff just means that is who will transport him to his destination.
Hmmm..interesting. Now I'm really curious. I suspect you have a better understanding of legalese than I do.

[muska]

Ok, from what I am hearing it means he will go on probation 1/21/09.

Released to staff just means that is who will transport him to his destination.

Isn't probation after a conviction? Have they reached some kind of plea? I don't understand!!

It is good news though?

[wolfi_2]

Ok, from what I am hearing it means he will go on probation 1/21/09.

Released to staff just means that is who will transport him to his destination.


Ah, that would make me feel better, I´m going to bed now, it´s 2:30AM here, thanks JD and good night.:sleep:

[Justice_Dawg]

Isn't probation after a conviction? Have they reached some kind of plea? I don't understand!!

It is good news though?

Oh it sure is! I bet if Eryn lived in St John he would have gotten out today!
Oh sorry, I think the probation is the 240 day restore period.

[Details]

Ok, from what I am hearing it means he will go on probation 1/21/09.

Released to staff just means that is who will transport him to his destination.Oh, thank goodness! So he'll finally be out of that solitary cell.

It's a good start. Now, let's see what the prosecutor does. He's lost nearly all of his evidence - the confession, the 1000 spankings (not that the evidence ever supported that one), all he's got is some gunpowder residue that doesn't show much of anything, and a phone call report from a possible suspect. I'm not sure how they're supposed to be considering this evidence enough to go forward with a trial. Ballistics, other evidence could change that - but just what they have - no adult suspect would be in jail on that, IMO.

[Justice_Dawg]

Oh, thank goodness! So he'll finally be out of that solitary cell.

It's a good start. Now, let's see what the prosecutor does. He's lost nearly all of his evidence - the confession, the 1000 spankings (not that the evidence ever supported that one), all he's got is some gunpowder residue that doesn't show much of anything, and a phone call report from a possible suspect. I'm not sure how they're supposed to be considering this evidence enough to go forward with a trial. Ballistics, other evidence could change that - but just what they have - no adult suspect would be in jail on that, IMO.

Plus now they have to re-test the gun and bullets to see if the GSR even came from that gun and if that was the gun used. They still can't even call him the shooter!! It is in a report!!! GMAB!

[Dallasnc]

1/21 is the next court hearing date also?

[Justice_Dawg]

1/21 is the next court hearing date also?

It sure is.

[muska]

Oh it sure is! I bet if Eryn lived in St John he would have gotten out today!
Oh sorry, I think the probation is the 240 day restore period.

Wow!!! I didn't expect that news tonight!

The 21st is the date, I think, of the next hearing. Maybe the staff will transport him to that? How soon will his mom be back? I want him to get out of there!

[Dallasnc]

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2009/01/06/20090106stjohns.html

This might have been posted but I like this quote from the above article.
"Number 1, they're stupid," he said. "Number 2, they're stupid. Number 3, they're stupid. . . . This is just a case of poor police work."

[Justice_Dawg]

http://www.azfamily.com/video/geaz-index.html?nvid=319161

John Andreas says St John's LE is a screw up!! ROFLMAO!!

[JD1974]

I don't think anyone who didn't live in the house could argue that it was an unreasonable search with regard to them, so it could be used against a killer who lived elsewhere. Legal people please correct me if I'm wrong.

On the same note, if Tiffany had given the police permission to search the house would LE even need a warrant?

The prosecution knew the "confession" was a lost cause. I can't see Brewer allowing the boy to testify.


The def is fighting it on the basis that the judge who signed the search warrant was not an unbiased judge, he knew the victim. How that may play out if someone else is responsible I don' know.

[Justice_Dawg]

The def is fighting it on the basis that the judge who signed the search warrant was not an unbiased judge, he knew the victim. How that may play out if someone else is responsible I don' know.

That biased judge signed 3 search warrants. All the way into December. He never asked to step down after the first one, NEVER. They lie so much in St John's. It is all on the clerks site. You have to check the ones with CR's middle name too. :wink:

[Justice_Dawg]

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2009/01/06/20090106stjohns.html

This might have been posted but I like this quote from the above article.
"Number 1, they're stupid," he said. "Number 2, they're stupid. Number 3, they're stupid. . . . This is just a case of poor police work."
That was our morning giggle. :lol::lol::lol:

[Dallasnc]

That was our morning giggle. :lol::lol:

I was at work. :mad:

[suzanne]

If they are supressing the so called confession tape.Shouldn't they really be not putting it on T.V. and in newspapers any more what he supposedly said.I really feel they should quit doing this now.

[Adalena935]

Why did Mrs. Romans ask her husband, "Who's that", when referring to the child's voice (she said 'little boy') she claims to have heard? She later told LE that she could recognize the boys voice from having met him (once) previously.
Then she claims to have asked her husband, "What did he say"?
Would she not have known what he said had she actually heard the voice? Why ask?

Please read her report. Does it sound sincere to you?

Haven't you ever recognized a voice without being able to distinguish the exact words being said? That happens to me all the time. People come by and talk outside. I recognize their voices sometimes and sometimes not (yes, sometimes after just 1 meeting), but almost never understand the precise words.

It absolutely sounds sincere. Insincerity would be to claim to know all in my opinion.

If I'm in another room at work and not with the monitor I recognize voices multiple times a day without understanding the exact wording that's being said. Temperment (cheerful, sad, excitable, mundane) and tone is recognizable but almost can never distinguish each and every word. It surprises me you've never had that experience.

[Adalena935]

If they are supressing the so called confession tape.Shouldn't they really be not putting it on T.V. and in newspapers any more what he supposedly said.I really feel they should quit doing this now.

I've never heard anything on this case outside the first breaking nat'l news, but that was only a small blurb. I have no idea where it happened even.

[JD1974]

I am lost on the probation thing, I thought probation was what you were put on after having been found guilty of a crime and sentenced? Did that say he was being released on probation or to probation, I didn't realize probation had it's own "jail" like complex? Or did it simply mean he was being put into a place more like juveline hall instead of being locked up by himself? Someone explain if they can please!!

[muska]

At the end of this video, the newsperson says that John Andreas, the Romans family spokesperson, says the family is wavering as to whether they think the boy commited the crime.

http://www.abc15.com/mediacenter/local.aspx?videoid=18622@knxv.dayport.com&navCatId=3

I think, no matter what, you have to give him credit for saying anything on the child's behalf.....this just has to be horrible for them. He also said, in another story, "You just have to hope the best for the boy." That's more than a lot of complete strangers have said.

[Justice_Dawg]

At the end of this video, the newsperson says that John Andreas, the Romans family spokesperson, says the family is wavering as to whether they think the boy commited the crime.

http://www.abc15.com/mediacenter/local.aspx?videoid=18622@knxv.dayport.com&navCatId=3

I think, no matter what, you have to give him credit for saying anything on the child's behalf.....this just has to be horrible for them. He also said, in another story, "You just have to hope the best for the boy." That's more than a lot of complete strangers have said.

That is a twist! He doesn't think CR did it now? WoW!!!!:thumbsup:

[Justice_Dawg]

:w00t:

That is awesome!!!

I can see why. They aren't stupid. Yes there was GSR on CR's cloths, but they don't match the particles shot from HIS CHIPMUNK gun. So they have to re-test it. It is a WASTE of time!!!

FIND THE MOSSBURG!!

moo

[Justice_Dawg]

Oh my gosh, JD...I want to cry right now. i did not realize that part. I totally missed that! I didn't know the GSR didn't match his gun!!! i could kiss you right now!!!!

:loveeyes:

So they want to re-test the gun and bullets they found. What a bunch of goobers!

:tonguewag:

[Justice_Dawg]

Yes...and let's name it something a bit nicer...

It's midnight. What do we name it? :biggrin:

[muska]

So they want to re-test the gun and bullets they found. What a bunch of goobers!

:tonguewag:

How do you know they don't match?

[muska]

In that same news video above, the reporter says the boy sat "nervously chewing on his fingers." How sad! I remember reading that the priest in town said that the boy had been a nervous kid but then seemed better with Tiffany around. I guess he's nervous again - who wouldn't be? I think it's terrible that the judge can't find some way to let the child talk to a therapist without having to worry about what is said.

Why on earth do you think they had him in shackles again? The reporter mentioned how they made noise when the child swung his feet. This doesn't seem like good PR for the prosecutor. It makes them look ridiculous.

[Justice_Dawg]

How do you know they don't match?
Prosecutors report:
The report recommended that the ammunition and weapon be submitted for further testing. Diaczuk said that could determine whether the bullets that hit the men came out of the gun taken into evidence.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/texassouthwest/stories/0106texdadkilled.2aa3cbd.html

(It also says the GSR from the chipmunk doesen't match the particles on his cloths)

My God They Don't EVEN KNOW if the bullets that hit the men came out of the CHIPMUNK YET. GOOBERS!!!

This is why they CAN'T call CR THE SHOOTER!

[muska]

8 year old railroaded for double murder?
8 year old coerced into false confession?
Mayberry AZ botches double murder case?
Who shot Vince and Tim?

Your choice!:smile:

They all sound good!

It's late....Good night!

[Justice_Dawg]

They all sound good!

It's late....Good night!

Night! :biggrin:

[Justice_Dawg]

In that same news video above, the reporter says the boy sat "nervously chewing on his fingers." How sad! I remember reading that the priest in town said that the boy had been a nervous kid but then seemed better with Tiffany around. I guess he's nervous again - who wouldn't be? I think it's terrible that the judge can't find some way to let the child talk to a therapist without having to worry about what is said.

Why on earth do you think they had him in shackles again? The reporter mentioned how they made noise when the child swung his feet. This doesn't seem like good PR for the prosecutor. It makes them look ridiculous.
Makes me sick to my stomach. :angry:

[lurkinghere2]

Prosecutors report:
The report recommended that the ammunition and weapon be submitted for further testing. Diaczuk said that could determine whether the bullets that hit the men came out of the gun taken into evidence.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/texassouthwest/stories/0106texdadkilled.2aa3cbd.html

(It also says the GSR from the chipmunk doesen't match the particles on his cloths) My God They Don't EVEN KNOW if the bullets that hit the men came out of the CHIPMUNK YET. GOOBERS!!!

This is why they CAN'T call CR THE SHOOTER!


Bolding by me. JD, where does it say this?? I'm not seeing it.
TIA

[Justice_Dawg]

Bolding by me. JD, where does it say this?? I'm not seeing it.
TIA

Someone read me the report over the phone, so no link until they post it. Sorry!

This reporting is bad enough:
Based on tests, the report said the boy's shirt and pants might have come into contact with or were in close proximity to a discharged firearm.

[lurkinghere2]

Thought on the probation order & "released to staff" on 1/21/09...

If the child was in the custody of his father before his death & his mom lives out of state, maybe custody has not transferred to her yet -- legally & regardless of the incarceration by the state of AZ. Could this be the beginning of the custody transfer? .... like he is now in the "custody of the court" & he is being held at the detention center, 'cause he can't very well live in the courtroom & I doubt the Judge or his clerks want to provide child rearing.... & then on the 21st, he will be released to a staff member of the court and then custody transferred to his mom?????

[lurkinghere2]

Someone read me the report over the phone, so no link until they post it. Sorry!

This reporting is bad enough:
Based on tests, the report said the boy's shirt and pants might have come into contact with or were in close proximity to a discharged firearm.


Ah, thanks. That makes sense. I was thinking it was supposed to blatantly in that article & I could not find the report on the court docs site, so I was confused.

These folks ain't got nothin' they've hosed what should of been a real investigation.

I like that Big John is now wondering if this child did this.

[Justice_Dawg]

Thought on the probation order & "released to staff" on 1/21/09...

If the child was in the custody of his father before his death & his mom lives out of state, maybe custody has not transferred to her yet -- legally & regardless of the incarceration by the state of AZ. Could this be the beginning of the custody transfer? .... like he is now in the "custody of the court" & he is being held at the detention center, 'cause he can't very well live in the courtroom & I doubt the Judge or his clerks want to provide child rearing.... & then on the 21st, he will be released to a staff member of the court and then custody transferred to his mom?????


You pegged it. :thumbsup:

Eryn filed for custody and got it.
Then 2 weeks ago she got her attorney to state CR could not be released without her knowledge. Now she is back in Mississippi, knowing she must be a resident of St. John's to get CR out.

What else is she doing? She's packing.

moo

[lurkinghere2]

You pegged it. :thumbsup:

Eryn filed for custody and got it.
Then 2 weeks ago she got her attorney to state CR could not be released without her knowledge. Now she is back in Mississippi, knowing she must be a resident of St. John's to get CR out.

What else is she doing? She's packing.

moo

I wondered at what point she would move back. I hope the relationship she has with her other child's father is such that she will be able to bring that child with her. I can't imagine having to sacrifice the needs of one child for any length of time for the benefit (however desperately needed) of another. OT, I have 3, 2 of which have signifigant enough health issues that have caused some traveling & leaving the others at home with dad/husband at times. Even if it's just an overnighter, I hate being away from them.....

[Justice_Dawg]

Me too!!!

I'm thinking that at some point when they realize he did not do it, could there be a lawsuit in his future? I know the Chicago boys received money.

False arrest
Coerced confession
False imprisonment
:read:

I don't even want to think about money. When Clarence Elkins was released, he was estatic (as we all were). He got over 1 million. He is still a mess from being wrongfully imprisioned. He just goes around helping us now. He goes to hearings with us. He goes to the parties after another wrongfully accused is released...but he still isn't the same. Bob and Randy are the same, money doesn't give you your life back, or take away the pain. I think they need a counciling group. The innocence project hasn't come up with one of those yet.

OMG A Hugh light bulb just went on. :eek:

[Justice_Dawg]

I wondered at what point she would move back. I hope the relationship she has with her other child's father is such that she will be able to bring that child with her. I can't imagine having to sacrifice the needs of one child for any length of time for the benefit (however desperately needed) of another. OT, I have 3, 2 of which have signifigant enough health issues that have caused some traveling & leaving the others at home with dad/husband at times. Even if it's just an overnighter, I hate being away from them.....

In a situation like this, if he really loves her, he'll stick with her. If not, IMO he isn't worth it. I sure hope she will bring her little girl.:unsure:

[lurkinghere2]

I don't even want to think about money. When Clarence Elkins was released, he was estatic (as we all were). He got over 1 million. He is still a mess from being wrongfully imprisioned. He just goes around helping us now. He goes to hearings with us. He goes to the parties after another wrongfully accused is released...but he still isn't the same. Bob and Randy are the same, money doesn't give you your life back, or take away the pain. I think they need a counciling group. The innocence project hasn't come up with one of those yet.

OMG A Hugh light bulb just went on. :eek:

Well, shine your light on the rest of us....:smile:

[lurkinghere2]

In a situation like this, if he really loves her, he'll stick with her. If not, IMO he isn't worth it. I sure hope she will bring her little girl.:unsure:


Ah, I was under the impression that she was single.
How old is her daughter? Has she been with her dad?
Is her family supportive in this?

Just assuming that you will actually know the answers. It seems that you may have developed an aquaintance with her. Tell me to back off if needed.

[Justice_Dawg]

Well, shine your light on the rest of us....:smile:

Start groups in each state for the wrongly accused! Kind of like a support group with therapy available. Lord knows there are enough people in each state now!

[PensiveOne]

Good Morning. Looks like I missed all the excitement:) Here is an article where an attorney agrees that what the prosecutors have left is circumstantial evidence.

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2009/01/07/20090107stjohns0107.html

Even if admitted, some of that evidence may be tainted or of questionable value because the child and his father were heavily involved in hunting. Experts say gunshot residue on the boy's clothing could have come from multiple sources. Likewise, they said, the boy's fingerprint found on an ammunition box could have been left at an earlier date.

Phoenix attorney Gary Peter Klahr said loss of the confession substantially weakens a case, especially when some forensic evidence may be suspect.

"That's a major blow," he said. "There's enough circumstantial evidence so it could still go to a jury. . . . But I have a lot more reasonable doubt on this than I did on O.J."