Jan. 2nd

[wolfi_2]

From what I read on those links, I have to agree. Unless she is disabled, a five year old does not need help to urinate. An 11 year old is much too old to be innocently playing doctor.

However, I think therapy would be called for in that case. JMO

his father worked in the US with a US co worker in the city, if I remember right, he was working in some PC business, but not in a so called p**n industries, I thing this case shouldn´t be discussed here, I like it only as example how easy it is, to get in juvi. If this (R. Wüthrich) was happened here the police wouldn't investigate it, there would never even been a "oh, oh, bad boy".

but also in this case are some failure during the LE, the case was closed about the time limit of 45 day´s for a speedy trial.
And also his 5 year old sister was more or less led into a false confession against her brother.

by the way, the boy had get some therapy, but not about playing doctor,- because of the imprisoned time, where he was sexually abused by staff, who strip investigate the boy after each meeting with his mom the first day´s, so the boy was scared if his mom or dad come in the first days to visit him. he also get some abuse from the older inmates, -the officer´s had said that´s normal.

[LindaNJ1216]

From what I read on those links, I have to agree. Unless she is disabled, a five year old does not need help to urinate. An 11 year old is much too old to be innocently playing doctor.

However, I think therapy would be called for in that case. JMO


I don't understand what the neighbor saw....and how would the neighbor see if the boy was helping his sister go to the bathroom?
I really do not know anything more than the links above....which isn't much for me to base an opinion on.

[wolfi_2]

Dang, it didn't leave the spaces in...but I think you can still get the idea:tongueside:

Ok back to this case, if you like to find out who was the shooter, you must exact know where the shooter was, for example, the boys dad on the stair, if he went one or two more steps forward after he was hit, the angle of the shooting are changing with each step, than you must know the high of the shooter and how he is shooting, if he is kneeling or standing, if he fired the shoot´s exact aimed or more just out of his hand´s, I must say I don´t know very much about weapon´s, but it seems to me, it was a very light weapon, so I think it can be possible to fire out of the hand. Same with Tim, each step into the direction of the shooter would change the ankle, if the shooter had a different high, or the shooter is kneeling the angle is changing with each step. If the shooter had the same high, the angle wouldn´t change very much. If you don´t know how much steps the victims do after they are hit, it´s very difficult to find out who the shooter was only about the shootings, you need more evidence. So my opinion is, that the angle and the place of the shooting´s can say anything and nothing, it´s alone not enough evidence.

[shelby77]

When a bullet hits bone it can deflect or ricochet and can go in many directions according to where it entered and what it hits next or how it spins the bullet fragment, when it hits bone or vital organs, especially a small caliber bullet. That is why the experts closely evaluate the entry wound because that is how they tell at what angle the bullet entered the body. The ME will be able to trace the pattern the bullet took once it entered the body.

I believe Tim was shot in the forearm first at about 24 feet from the home. He most likely had his arm close down by his side and that is why it wound up causing another injury. This shot was imo meant for the chest or Tim may have changed directions slightly and it hit his forearm instead.

I think the two chest shots were fired still from the home or in the porch area and doorway. One may have been done about 15 feet away and then another fired from about 5 or 6 feet, maybe even less before reaching the porch.

I believe Tim had already staggered forward and was already down and dying on the porch when the last three shots were fired. One only grazed his head. The shooter may have misjudged, since Tim had his knit cap on and it may have been bunched up on the back of his head. That is the one that went through the screen metal door. The second shot was probably done from about 3-4 feet away and the last shot was very close, much less than 2 feet away.

I am not sure if the shooter was inside the house the entire time. The first two shots weren't heard so the house could have buffered the noise, which isn't loud to begin with and then four shots were fired from the patio porch area where the bushes that were right at the patio could be used as a blind, where no one could see the shooter. I think that is why 4 casings were found outside

I think the shooter knew he had seriously wounded Tim and may have thought both shots landed in the chest area, instead of his forearm and chest. Once the shooter knew he had him wounded ..........he then stepped out onto the porch area behind the jasmine vines or whatever they are and finished killing him imo and that is why the neighbors said they only heard 3 or 4 pops.

With a single bolt action rifle all that can be determined is that is where the shooter was standing at the time when he ejected a spent casing in order to reload. I would think he could have been mostly stationary in some of them but moving as he ejected the casings in others. The gun spits the spent casing out so that it is ready to reload. He didn't have to physically take them out, only reload each time.
,
From the crime scene photos that I saw it showed the rifle with one live rim fire .22 LR bullet left in it.

imoo


This scenario definitely makes sense to me, I appreciate all the detail it has and I can not find one thing that does not fit, so kudos to you for that LOL. I'm not saying I'm convinced the boy did it, but logistically this fits for me as a possibility.
Also, when they reference the one that looks different, I can't help but wonder if it's the one that went thru the door, wouldn't that one have a different appearance (possibly) after going thru a metal door such as that, Idk it's just a thought....
TY for the info regarding the gun spitting out the spent casing automatically when he reloaded, it's not something I had even thought of while trying to envision the scenario. I just assumed he had to take it out and reload as 2 separate steps and not as one combined step.

[muska]

Brewer and Neckel agreed that the bodies had been removed before DPS arrived and that it was a mistake to do so. They agreed that some of the evidence that could have been collected, I think regarding the exact trajectories etc., might not now be available. The police chief was the one who ordered the bodies removed, even though Neckel said she was in charge of the investigation.

To what extent do you think evidence might be weakened by the removal of the bodies? I think they must have been referring to trajectories but is there other evidence that would have been more difficult to gather because of this?

[GentleBreeze]

Brewer and Neckel agreed that the bodies had been removed before DPS arrived and that it was a mistake to do so. They agreed that some of the evidence that could have been collected, I think regarding the exact trajectories etc., might not now be available. The police chief was the one who ordered the bodies removed, even though Neckel said she was in charge of the investigation.

To what extent do you think evidence might be weakened by the removal of the bodies? I think they must have been referring to trajectories but is there other evidence that would have been more difficult to gather because of this?

I am sure though, Muska, that the entire scene was fully photographed in its original location before anything was collected from the scene, including how the bodies were found. I think they have photos that show exactly what lay where, when they first came upon the scene.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

This scenario definitely makes sense to me, I appreciate all the detail it has and I can not find one thing that does not fit, so kudos to you for that LOL. I'm not saying I'm convinced the boy did it, but logistically this fits for me as a possibility.
Also, when they reference the one that looks different, I can't help but wonder if it's the one that went thru the door, wouldn't that one have a different appearance (possibly) after going thru a metal door such as that, Idk it's just a thought....
TY for the info regarding the gun spitting out the spent casing automatically when he reloaded, it's not something I had even thought of while trying to envision the scenario. I just assumed he had to take it out and reload as 2 separate steps and not as one combined step.

YW.

Yes, once the bolt is slammed back (open) that is when the casing ejects to the right and the shooter then reloads the weapon and slams the bolt foward in place. Very easy to do. That is why they make youth model weapons for younger children. It is lightweight and it is a simple mechanism.

We have to remember the scale that was placed by the hole in the screen. It is consistent with a .22 LR bullet imo. It looks larger because the photo is close up and when the bullet passed through it flaked some of the white metal paint of of the door around it making it even appear larger.

imoo

[bkwits]

Brewer and Neckel agreed that the bodies had been removed before DPS arrived and that it was a mistake to do so. They agreed that some of the evidence that could have been collected, I think regarding the exact trajectories etc., might not now be available. The police chief was the one who ordered the bodies removed, even though Neckel said she was in charge of the investigation.

To what extent do you think evidence might be weakened by the removal of the bodies? I think they must have been referring to trajectories but is there other evidence that would have been more difficult to gather because of this?

IMO, this whole case has been mucked up from the beginning. Neckels was in charge, eh? She never even went into the house when she and Rodriguez answered the call to the crime scene. She let her partner go in alone, not knowing if the shooter(s) was still in the house. She could not answer most of the questions posed by Defense Atty Brewer about the crime scene. Uggh.

[IAMME]

When a bullet hits bone it can deflect or ricochet and can go in many directions according to where it entered and what it hits next or how it spins the bullet fragment, when it hits bone or vital organs, especially a small caliber bullet. That is why the experts closely evaluate the entry wound because that is how they tell at what angle the bullet entered the body. The ME will be able to trace the pattern the bullet took once it entered the body.

I believe Tim was shot in the forearm first at about 24 feet from the home. He most likely had his arm close down by his side and that is why it wound up causing another injury. This shot was imo meant for the chest or Tim may have changed directions slightly and it hit his forearm instead.

I think the two chest shots were fired still from the home or in the porch area and doorway. One may have been done about 15 feet away and then another fired from about 5 or 6 feet, maybe even less before reaching the porch.

I believe Tim had already staggered forward and was already down and dying on the porch when the last three shots were fired. One only grazed his head. The shooter may have misjudged, since Tim had his knit cap on and it may have been bunched up on the back of his head. That is the one that went through the screen metal door. The second shot was probably done from about 3-4 feet away and the last shot was very close, much less than 2 feet away.

I am not sure if the shooter was inside the house the entire time. The first two shots weren't heard so the house could have buffered the noise, which isn't loud to begin with and then four shots were fired from the patio porch area where the bushes that were right at the patio could be used as a blind, where no one could see the shooter. I think that is why 4 casings were found outside

I think the shooter knew he had seriously wounded Tim and may have thought both shots landed in the chest area, instead of his forearm and chest. Once the shooter knew he had him wounded ..........he then stepped out onto the porch area behind the jasmine vines or whatever they are and finished killing him imo and that is why the neighbors said they only heard 3 or 4 pops.

With a single bolt action rifle all that can be determined is that is where the shooter was standing at the time when he ejected a spent casing in order to reload. I would think he could have been mostly stationary in some of them but moving as he ejected the casings in others. The gun spits the spent casing out so that it is ready to reload. He didn't have to physically take them out, only reload each time.

From the crime scene photos that I saw it showed the rifle with one live rim fire .22 LR bullet left in it.

imoo


About Tim having his arm close down by his side........wasnt there a pack of cigarettes and a lighter somewhere on the ground....or somewhere unusual??? Perhaps he was reaching to put them in his pocket??? and once shot dropped them? Of course I cant remember where the smokes were so I am not sure how much that helps, but it might be worth exploring.......Which arm was it? Where were the smokes in relation to the blood trail?

[bkwits]

About Tim having his arm close down by his side........wasnt there a pack of cigarettes and a lighter somewhere on the ground....or somewhere unusual??? Perhaps he was reachign to put them in his pocket??? and once shot dropped them? Of course I cant remember where the smokes were so I am not sure how much that helps, but it might be worth exploring.......

Yes I remember that about the lighter and cigarettes on the ground I'll have to go back and look.

[bkwits]

Why don't we see any blood in the crime scene photos? Or am I missing it?

[muska]

About Tim having his arm close down by his side........wasnt there a pack of cigarettes and a lighter somewhere on the ground....or somewhere unusual??? Perhaps he was reaching to put them in his pocket??? and once shot dropped them? Of course I cant remember where the smokes were so I am not sure how much that helps, but it might be worth exploring.......Which arm was it? Where were the smokes in relation to the blood trail?

I remember it said they were found beside him...seemed a little strange to me...why didn't he drop them when he was first hit? No one collected the cigarettes or inhaler until the next day. Why didn't they take this evidence right away? Just left it out in the weather - weird.

[muska]

Why don't we see any blood in the crime scene photos? Or am I missing it?

I was wondering about that too. Somewhere (maybe a post?) I read the carpet near VR was blood soaked, but I never noticed anything like that...just little spots of blood. I could definitely be mistaken!

[bkwits]

In the crime scene photo, I think Marker V is at the top of the stairs. There is clothing next to Marker V, could that be VR's body?

[PensiveOne]

When a bullet hits bone it can deflect or ricochet and can go in many directions according to where it entered and what it hits next or how it spins the bullet fragment, when it hits bone or vital organs, especially a small caliber bullet. That is why the experts closely evaluate the entry wound because that is how they tell at what angle the bullet entered the body. The ME will be able to trace the pattern the bullet took once it entered the body.

I believe Tim was shot in the forearm first at about 24 feet from the home. He most likely had his arm close down by his side and that is why it wound up causing another injury. This shot was imo meant for the chest or Tim may have changed directions slightly and it hit his forearm instead.

I think the two chest shots were fired still from the home or in the porch area and doorway. One may have been done about 15 feet away and then another fired from about 5 or 6 feet, maybe even less before reaching the porch.

I believe Tim had already staggered forward and was already down and dying on the porch when the last three shots were fired. One only grazed his head. The shooter may have misjudged, since Tim had his knit cap on and it may have been bunched up on the back of his head. That is the one that went through the screen metal door. The second shot was probably done from about 3-4 feet away and the last shot was very close, much less than 2 feet away.

I am not sure if the shooter was inside the house the entire time. The first two shots weren't heard so the house could have buffered the noise, which isn't loud to begin with and then four shots were fired from the patio porch area where the bushes that were right at the patio could be used as a blind, where no one could see the shooter. I think that is why 4 casings were found outside

I think the shooter knew he had seriously wounded Tim and may have thought both shots landed in the chest area, instead of his forearm and chest. Once the shooter knew he had him wounded ..........he then stepped out onto the porch area behind the jasmine vines or whatever they are and finished killing him imo and that is why the neighbors said they only heard 3 or 4 pops.

With a single bolt action rifle all that can be determined is that is where the shooter was standing at the time when he ejected a spent casing in order to reload. I would think he could have been mostly stationary in some of them but moving as he ejected the casings in others. The gun spits the spent casing out so that it is ready to reload. He didn't have to physically take them out, only reload each time.

From the crime scene photos that I saw it showed the rifle with one live rim fire .22 LR bullet left in it.

imoo

Wow...you have a LOT more imagination than me! I couldn't even think in feet. If he shot from inside the house he would have had to hold the screen door open. That doesn't make any sense to me. He could have ejected the shell inside, though. I was a little surprised that the closer bullet was the keyhole wound because that is usually caused by the bullet tumbling at low velocity. However, it could also be that it was at an odd angle. I guess we will just have to wait for the expert to figure it all out...not enough info.
The shot to the forearm bothers me though, because if you hold your arm straight down and the bullet went through the forearm straight it would enter the body somewhere around the hip or just above, at least mine would. If the arm were at a 90 degree angle, like on the arm of a chair it would enter the ribs. Like you said, it could have been deflected from hitting bone.

[PensiveOne]

This scenario definitely makes sense to me, I appreciate all the detail it has and I can not find one thing that does not fit, so kudos to you for that LOL. I'm not saying I'm convinced the boy did it, but logistically this fits for me as a possibility.
Also, when they reference the one that looks different, I can't help but wonder if it's the one that went thru the door, wouldn't that one have a different appearance (possibly) after going thru a metal door such as that, Idk it's just a thought....
TY for the info regarding the gun spitting out the spent casing automatically when he reloaded, it's not something I had even thought of while trying to envision the scenario. I just assumed he had to take it out and reload as 2 separate steps and not as one combined step.

It spits it out when you manually raise the bolt lever. That is not really automatically. Then you load.

[PensiveOne]

This scenario definitely makes sense to me, I appreciate all the detail it has and I can not find one thing that does not fit, so kudos to you for that LOL. I'm not saying I'm convinced the boy did it, but logistically this fits for me as a possibility.
Also, when they reference the one that looks different, I can't help but wonder if it's the one that went thru the door, wouldn't that one have a different appearance (possibly) after going thru a metal door such as that, Idk it's just a thought....
TY for the info regarding the gun spitting out the spent casing automatically when he reloaded, it's not something I had even thought of while trying to envision the scenario. I just assumed he had to take it out and reload as 2 separate steps and not as one combined step.

Here is a video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQYd9uwcGGM

[shelby77]

YW.

Yes, once the bolt is slammed back (open) that is when the casing ejects to the right and the shooter then reloads the weapon and slams the bolt foward in place. Very easy to do. That is why they make youth model weapons for younger children. It is lightweight and it is a simple mechanism.

We have to remember the scale that was placed by the hole in the screen. It is consistent with a .22 LR bullet imo. It looks larger because the photo is close up and when the bullet passed through it flaked some of the white metal paint of of the door around it making it even appear larger.

imoo

When I was talking about the one that looks different, I meant the one (bullet) that LE said looked different on the scene. IIRC some people had speculated that maybe it was a different caliber or kind of a bullet, but I think it may have just looked different after going thru the metal door. Idk why they weren't more specific about details in their original reporting as memories only fade as time goes by. As evidenced by Neckel's apparent lack of memory only a few days later at the first hearing. But obviously they were ill-equipped to handle a case of this magnitude :sad:

[PensiveOne]

About Tim having his arm close down by his side........wasnt there a pack of cigarettes and a lighter somewhere on the ground....or somewhere unusual??? Perhaps he was reaching to put them in his pocket??? and once shot dropped them? Of course I cant remember where the smokes were so I am not sure how much that helps, but it might be worth exploring.......Which arm was it? Where were the smokes in relation to the blood trail?

IIRC, the cigarettes and lighter were found by his left foot? It was his right arm. The blood trail extended from his body to the north end of the driveway.

From Sgt Guinn's report:
"
Movingleft(eastacrossfront ofhouse)from thedoorIobservedapack ofcamelcigarettes, ablue Bic lighter, two Sinex nasal inhalers and a visine bottle, lying on the porch near Romans' left foot. A line of blood spatter was noted leading from the body to the north end of the drive way."

[PensiveOne]

I remember it said they were found beside him...seemed a little strange to me...why didn't he drop them when he was first hit? No one collected the cigarettes or inhaler until the next day. Why didn't they take this evidence right away? Just left it out in the weather - weird.

Good point Muska. I hadn't thought of that! Why would he continue to hold onto cigarettes and stuff when he was being shot at?

[shelby77]

Here is a video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQYd9uwcGGM

TYVM :) Once she pointed that I could more clearly remember, as I was around them when I was younger, I never paid much attention as I've never had any interest in guns or hunting myself. Seems like a pretty simple process that I know can be done smoothly by those who've had just a little practice.
Still not buying that he did it, but that he may have been physically capable in that he was incredibly lucky that he was able to catch both of them separately and by surprise even though they arrived home at the same time. Seems like if he did do it, he took great risks and there was a slim chance that he would've been able to pull this off. Now I know 8 y/o are not know for their well thought out plans, but surely he could've come up with something better than this. Why do it when he chose to do it? I need to understand that before I can believe he may have done it....

[shelby77]

Good point Muska. I hadn't thought of that! Why would he continue to hold onto cigarettes and stuff when he was being shot at?

Maybe they could've fallen out of his coat pocket when as he falling to the ground?? Idk, just a thought...

[PensiveOne]

TYVM :) Once she pointed that I could more clearly remember, as I was around them when I was younger, I never paid much attention as I've never had any interest in guns or hunting myself. Seems like a pretty simple process that I know can be done smoothly by those who've had just a little practice.
Still not buying that he did it, but that he may have been physically capable in that he was incredibly lucky that he was able to catch both of them separately and by surprise even though they arrived home at the same time. Seems like if he did do it, he took great risks and there was a slim chance that he would've been able to pull this off. Now I know 8 y/o are not know for their well thought out plans, but surely he could've come up with something better than this. Why do it when he chose to do it? I need to understand that before I can believe he may have done it....

Shelby, ITA. I am on the fence all of the time. I want to fall off on his side but something always brings me back to the middle. Still, when he says, "Why would I shoot Tim"? "...Dad and Tim"!? That just haunts me. It's like when they tell him that he shot his Dad and Tim, he is trying to figure out how that is possible. JMO

[Kara]

When I was talking about the one that looks different, I meant the one (bullet) that LE said looked different on the scene. IIRC some people had speculated that maybe it was a different caliber or kind of a bullet, but I think it may have just looked different after going thru the metal door. Idk why they weren't more specific about details in their original reporting as memories only fade as time goes by. As evidenced by Neckel's apparent lack of memory only a few days later at the first hearing. But obviously they were ill-equipped to handle a case of this magnitude :sad:

It was a shell casing that looks different and the casings don't go through anything....they are simply ejected from the gun by the manual lever action. Only the bullet travels down the barrel of the gun and enters the target (and anything in it's path).

[muska]

IIRC, the cigarettes and lighter were found by his left foot? It was his right arm. The blood trail extended from his body to the north end of the driveway.

From Sgt Guinn's report:
"
Movingleft(eastacrossfront ofhouse)from thedoorIobservedapack ofcamelcigarettes, ablue Bic lighter, two Sinex nasal inhalers and a visine bottle, lying on the porch near Romans' left foot. A line of blood spatter was noted leading from the body to the north end of the drive way."

That's a lot of stuff that he may have dropped; I hadn't seen the whole list before. Just a thought.....maybe someone went through his pockets looking for something and left all that "stuff" that wasn't wanted next to his body. Doesn't seem like he'd have had that much in his hands and I don't see it all falling out of a pocket. What do you think? Is this at all possible?

If it is possible, fingerprints would be ruined since the police left these items lying around outside.

[wolfi_2]

Here is a video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQYd9uwcGGM

Thanks for the video, now I had a idea how the gun works. And that´s not a fast process I think, anyway, I can´t imagine if the boy was the shooter how he can manage all the stress during the shooting´s without losing self control or losing some bullet's through the loading process. I also saw in the video, not all empty cases are ejected automatically.

[PensiveOne]

That's a lot of stuff that he may have dropped; I hadn't seen the whole list before. Just a thought.....maybe someone went through his pockets looking for something and left all that "stuff" that wasn't wanted next to his body. Doesn't seem like he'd have had that much in his hands and I don't see it all falling out of a pocket. What do you think? Is this at all possible?

If it is possible, fingerprints would be ruined since the police left these items lying around outside.

It depends, I guess, on what they were looking for. It couldn't have been money because they left that in his wallet. It is a lot of stuff to carry.

[PensiveOne]

Thanks for the video, now I had a idea how the gun works. And that´s not a fast process I think, anyway, I can´t imagine if the boy was the shooter how he can manage all the stress during the shooting´s without losing self control or losing some bullet's through the loading process. I also saw in the video, not all empty cases are ejected automatically.

Bolding is mine. AND all are not ejected to the right. If the rifle is a little cock-eyed one way or the other the shell will eject in that direction. He would have to be "cool as a cucumber" to do that without flaw. Don't you think?

[muska]

It depends, I guess, on what they were looking for. It couldn't have been money because they left that in his wallet. It is a lot of stuff to carry.

I'm amazed by all the things this police dept didn't do! Why wouldn't they have taken these items into evidence?

[PensiveOne]

I'm amazed by all the things this police dept didn't do! Why wouldn't they have taken these items into evidence?

I thought they always took everything from the scene. I am a little shocked that they left those items on the porch. The crime scene investigators didn't even come till the next day to collect evidence. After the bodies were removed. That shocked me, too.

[wolfi_2]

Bolding is mine. AND all are not ejected to the right. If the rifle is a little cock-eyed one way or the other the shell will eject in that direction. He would have to be "cool as a cucumber" to do that without flaw. Don't you think?

yes that´s right.

there is at Websleuths another link to a bad story about a twelve year old boy who killed his mom, he fortunately would stay in the juvenile law, sentence is 23 Jan. I read about an 13 year old boy in the same post who was given live! he was sentenced as adult, that´s barbaric. I just want to know why? and how can a nation accept something like this, that´s all children! again, Children! yes, they do something terrible wrong, but they can normally all rehabilitated, I remember someone like to charge this now 9 year old boy as adult, They are not adult, I can´t understand that people only get the idea to do that. Why in god's name aren't the parents not blamed for letting weapons available for children?
-sorry but every time I read something like that, I feel sick.

[PensiveOne]

yes that´s right.

there is at Websleuths another link to a bad story about a twelve year old boy who killed his mom, he fortunately would stay in the juvenile law, sentence is 23 Jan. I read about an 13 year old boy in the same post who was given live! he was sentenced as adult, that´s barbaric. I just want to know why? and how can a nation accept something like this, that´s all children! again, Children! yes, they do something terrible wrong, but they can normally all rehabilitated, I remember someone like to charge this now 9 year old boy as adult, They are not adult, I can´t understand that people only get the idea to do that. Why in god's name aren't the parents not blamed for letting weapons available for children?
-sorry but every time I read something like that, I feel sick.

Here is one for you...a teenager in Arkansas gets the death penalty!

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9901E3DF1039F932A25752C0A9609582 60

He was 16 when he committed the crime.

[wolfi_2]

buh:thumbdown:

http://209.85.129.132/search?q=cache:eVGWhfrxVoEJ:webinstituteforteacher s.org/~bobfinn/2003/Old%2520Enough%2520to%2520Kill.doc+Damond+Sanford&hl=de&ct=clnk&cd=11&gl=de

[shelby77]

It was a shell casing that looks different and the casings don't go through anything....they are simply ejected from the gun by the manual lever action. Only the bullet travels down the barrel of the gun and enters the target (and anything in it's path).

Oh, it was a casing, I thought it was the actual bullet, but it was sometime ago that I read that, I admit. Hmm, I wonder what exactly they meant by "different" then. There's too many unexplained things here to figure out exactly what happened, imo

[wolfi_2]

buh:thumbdown:

http://209.85.129.132/search?q=cache:eVGWhfrxVoEJ:webinstituteforteacher s.org/~bobfinn/2003/Old%2520Enough%2520to%2520Kill.doc+Damond+Sanford&hl=de&ct=clnk&cd=11&gl=de

Fyodor Dostoevsky wrote, that a society should be "judged not by how it treats its outstanding citizens but by how it treats its criminals.''

[Kara]

Here is one for you...a teenager in Arkansas gets the death penalty!

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9901E3DF1039F932A25752C0A9609582 60

He was 16 when he committed the crime.
Every juvenile offender who was sentenced to death has had that commuted to life since the supreme court ruled that juveniles are not eligible for the death penalty.

Based upon the 13th juror question that is posted on the cnn site, I think tomorrow we will be seeing a trial of a juvenile who offered up a false confession. Tyler Edmunds. I think this is the boy...

http://www.mississippimud.org/news_updates.html

I haven't read in depth because I would like to watch the trial with an open mind. I'm not certain if it's canned or live...probably canned....

[PensiveOne]

Oh, it was a casing, I thought it was the actual bullet, but it was sometime ago that I read that, I admit. Hmm, I wonder what exactly they meant by "different" then. There's too many unexplained things here to figure out exactly what happened, imo

Look at photo 6 of the shell casing. Some thought it did not look like a .22 casing.

http://www.abc15.com/Photo.aspx?slideshow=a02b70a1-990e-43ba-8dd8-69e6acf5a4e0&photo=fb6aef35-39d0-4ac4-ac7a-3d26afffa8a9

[PensiveOne]

Every juvenile offender who was sentenced to death has had that commuted to life since the supreme court ruled that juveniles are not eligible for the death penalty.

Based upon the 13th juror question that is posted on the cnn site, I think tomorrow we will be seeing a trial of a juvenile who offered up a false confession. Tyler Edmunds. I think this is the boy...

http://www.mississippimud.org/news_updates.html

I haven't read in depth because I would like to watch the trial with an open mind. I'm not certain if it's canned or live...probably canned....


Thanks, Kara, I didn't know that. I thought they had left it up to the states.

[Kara]

Look at photo 6 of the shell casing. Some thought it did not look like a .22 casing.

http://www.abc15.com/Photo.aspx?slideshow=a02b70a1-990e-43ba-8dd8-69e6acf5a4e0&photo=fb6aef35-39d0-4ac4-ac7a-3d26afffa8a9
I wouldn't be able to tell a .22 casing from a .38 casing....but I believe there was testimony in an early hearing in regard to the casing that "looked different".

[Kara]

Thanks, Kara, I didn't know that. I thought they had left it up to the states.It used to be and for adults, the death sentence is still a state by state thing...but no state can execute a killer who committed their crime while a juvenile now.

I do realize that some older juveniles might be beyond saving....but I don't believe most are. :(

Christopher Pittman is a child who haunts my thoughts from time to time...he was only 12 when he killed his grandparents and was convicted, sentenced as an adult. Unlike many people (including the jury) I bought the involuntary intoxication defense.

[Kara]

I wish you hadn't told me the results. I deliberately did NOT search out the results so I could enjoy watching the trial. :(

Could you PM the moderator and ask her to remove your post so that the trial is not ruined for others?

[wolfi_2]

I wish you hadn't told me the results. I deliberately did NOT search out the results so I could enjoy watching the trial. :(

Could you PM the moderator and ask her to remove your post so that the trial is not ruined for others?


ups, sorry:blushing:, I thought you are on the wrong trial. Perhaps I misunderstood your post.:sad:

[Kara]

ups, sorry:blushing:, I thought you are on the wrong trial. Perhaps I misunderstood your post.:sad:
I simply meant to compare the upcomig trial of a juvenile with a false confession with this case. I didn't mean to discover or disclose the results.

I should have known better, but before it's ruined for others could you please send a private message to Coldwater and ask her to remove your post??

[wolfi_2]

I simply meant to compare the upcomig trial of a juvenile with a false confession with this case. I didn't mean to discover or disclose the results.

I should have known better, but before it's ruined for others could you please send a private message to Coldwater and ask her to remove your post??


I just searching for a link to the moderator….

[bkwits]

Bolding is mine. AND all are not ejected to the right. If the rifle is a little cock-eyed one way or the other the shell will eject in that direction. He would have to be "cool as a cucumber" to do that without flaw. Don't you think?

Yes he would. I really don't see how an 8 year old child could do these murders. Here are some of my problems with the child doing the shooting.
1.a. VR shooting - child would have either fired first from the top of the stairs (facing his dad) then gone around him when he was down on the stairs and shot him twice more. OR
b. Child would have shot VR from behind on the stairs as his dad from in front of him climbing the stairs (that seems difficult to me because of height difference which the stairs increase) then child would have gone to top of stairs and did the head shots.

2. Tim R. I just cannot understand how this happened. Apparently Tim got shot in the arm and kept on going towards the house. So, if the child did it, did he shoot from the house and keep shooting as Tim advanced toward. Then did after Tim fell in doorway, did child go outside and shoot through screen door?

Can someone help me with this? The DA must have a scenario in mind. IMO

[Kara]

I just searching for a link to the moderator….
I guess she has her PM function turned off. You can email her at in.session.coldwater@hotmail.com

Or, you could click on the report post button and report your own post. :)

[wolfi_2]

I guess she has her PM function turned off. You can email her at in.session.coldwater@hotmail.com

Or, you could click on the report post button and report your own post. :)


done, I send her a message, I hope that works fast enough

[PensiveOne]

Yes he would. I really don't see how an 8 year old child could do these murders. Here are some of my problems with the child doing the shooting.
1.a. VR shooting - child would have either fired first from the top of the stairs (facing his dad) then gone around him when he was down on the stairs and shot him twice more. OR
b. Child would have shot VR from behind on the stairs as his dad from in front of him climbing the stairs (that seems difficult to me because of height difference which the stairs increase) then child would have gone to top of stairs and did the head shots.

2. Tim R. I just cannot understand how this happened. Apparently Tim got shot in the arm and kept on going towards the house. So, if the child did it, did he shoot from the house and keep shooting as Tim advanced toward. Then did after Tim fell in doorway, did child go outside and shoot through screen door?

Can someone help me with this? The DA must have a scenario in mind. IMO

I don't know if I can help:-) I can only comment. Hawk had suggested that VR was shot from the front first. In Guinn's report they had asked the ME if the shot to the front of the head would have incapicatated him and the ME said yes. The shot to his back seems like it could have been from above him, too. But, then why the shot above the elbow?

The TR shooting makes no sense to me at all. I hope we are allowed to see the expert's opinion on the shooting.

[LindaNJ1216]

Here is one for you...a teenager in Arkansas gets the death penalty!

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9901E3DF1039F932A25752C0A9609582 60

He was 16 when he committed the crime.


he raped, robbed and murdered an 85 year old woman! You really think a little therapy would cure him?

[PensiveOne]

he raped, robbed and murdered an 85 year old woman! You really think a little therapy would cure him?

Don't put words in my mouth! I am not judging him, just noting in response to someone from another country who thinks we are barbarians for giving juveniles a life sentence, that we have done worse by giving them the death penalty. As has been noted, we don't do that anymore.

[wolfi_2]

he raped, robbed and murdered an 85 year old woman! You really think a little therapy would cure him?


Not a little therapie, but a therapie would normaly cure him. and if not,then he should be in prison for the rest of his life, but give a still young offender no chance, it´s no way.

[GentleBreeze]

It spits it out when you manually raise the bolt lever. That is not really automatically. Then you load.

He would have to do that anyway to load the weapon or reload.

But you don't manually have to take the spent casing out if there is one in chamber. When the bolt is slammed in the backward position the casing automatically ejects. Whether it is a spent casing or a live bullet.

It takes one slide of the bolt lever up and then backward to eject and to then load/reload. That one step is for ejecting any spent casing or unloading the weapon for safety or to reload another bullet. Once loaded again or unloaded then the bolt lever is simply pushed forward to its correct position and the lever is in a locked/downward position.

imoo

[LindaNJ1216]

Not a little therapie, but a therapie would normally cure him. and if not,then he should be in prison for the rest of his life, but give a still young offender no chance, it´s no way.

Sometimes I think society just gets lucky by catching these predators early. IMO NO Therapy in the world is going to cure a psychopath, regardless of age. A 16 year old that would prey on an 85 year old lady....let him rot behind bars! Cody Posey springs to mind.

[bkwits]

I don't know if I can help:-) I can only comment. Hawk had suggested that VR was shot from the front first. In Guinn's report they had asked the ME if the shot to the front of the head would have incapicatated him and the ME said yes. The shot to his back seems like it could have been from above him, too. But, then why the shot above the elbow?

The TR shooting makes no sense to me at all. I hope we are allowed to see the expert's opinion on the shooting.

Yes, I was in on the discussion with Hawk. He put a lot of stock in the casing on the lower stairs. He thought that the child ejected that shell as he went down the stairs after shooting his dad.

There can be various explanations for the VR shooting, bu I don't understand the TR shooting at all. Maybe the shooter was coming out of the house as TR was getting out of his truck. He shot TR from the porch and when he was leaving, shot a final time through the security door as he was running away.

IMO, the confession sways me in favor of the boy's innocence, except for one thing...his vagueness about what he did after school until almost 5 pm. I first put a lot of stock in Tanya's statement but not so much any more.

All. IMO

[Kara]

done, I send her a message, I hope that works fast enough

TY!! :seeya:

[wolfi_2]

Don't put words in my mouth! I am not judging him, just noting in response to someone from another country who thinks we are barbarians for giving juveniles a life sentence, that we have done worse by giving them the death penalty. As has been noted, we don't do that anymore.

Hm, I speak about a13 year old children, to give such young children a live sentence is in my eyes barbaric. The thing I don´t understand is why there is a juvenile law and if a juvenile do a serious crime there is no juvenile law? juveniles are not adults!
and I don´t call anyone here barbaric….

http://209.85.129.132/search?q=cache:eVGWhfrxVoEJ:webinstituteforteacher s.org/~bobfinn/2003/Old%2520Enough%2520to%2520Kill.doc+Damond+Sanford&hl=de&ct=clnk&cd=11&gl=de

[GentleBreeze]

yes that´s right.

there is at Websleuths another link to a bad story about a twelve year old boy who killed his mom, he fortunately would stay in the juvenile law, sentence is 23 Jan. I read about an 13 year old boy in the same post who was given live! he was sentenced as adult, that´s barbaric. I just want to know why? and how can a nation accept something like this, that´s all children! again, Children! yes, they do something terrible wrong, but they can normally all rehabilitated, I remember someone like to charge this now 9 year old boy as adult, They are not adult, I can´t understand that people only get the idea to do that. Why in god's name aren't the parents not blamed for letting weapons available for children?
-sorry but every time I read something like that, I feel sick.

I don't think this boy will be tried as an adult. He would have if he had been a few years older.

If this even goes to trial and he is convicted he will be out of juvenile jail when he reaches the age of 18. With the other boy that killed his mother, most likely he will get the same sentence for murdering one person, so that isn't a long time for killing two people. In confinement this boy, if found guilty, will receive mental therapy treatment and rehabilitation.

imoo

[PensiveOne]

Yes, I was in on the discussion with Hawk. He put a lot of stock in the casing on the lower stairs. He thought that the child ejected that shell as he went down the stairs after shooting his dad.

There can be various explanations for the VR shooting, bu I don't understand the TR shooting at all. Maybe the shooter was coming out of the house as TR was getting out of his truck. He shot TR from the porch and when he was leaving, shot a final time through the security door as he was running away.

IMO, the confession sways me in favor of the boy's innocence, except for one thing...his vagueness about what he did after school until almost 5 pm. I first put a lot of stock in Tanya's statement but not so much any more.

All. IMO

That bothers me, too. I seem to remember him saying he got home around 4:30. Kids aren't real good with time, but you would think he would want to be home before his Dad got there so he would not be in trouble if he was supposed to go straight home from the bus. That is still a long time to walk around if he got off the bus around 3:00. Kids can while away the hours doing nothing. The time line is what troubles me the most. If TR was on the phone till 4:55, and the boy says he got home after the shootings then his timeline is off almost half an hour. It is the phone call that really points to the boy.

[PensiveOne]

Hm, I speak about a13 year old children, to give such young children a live sentence is in my eyes barbaric. The thing I don´t understand is why there is a juvenile law and if a juvenile do a serious crime there is no juvenile law? juveniles are not adults!
and I don´t call anyone here barbaric….

http://209.85.129.132/search?q=cache:eVGWhfrxVoEJ:webinstituteforteacher s.org/~bobfinn/2003/Old%2520Enough%2520to%2520Kill.doc+Damond+Sanford&hl=de&ct=clnk&cd=11&gl=de

Sorry Wofi, my word not yours:wink:

[wolfi_2]

Sorry Wofi, my word not yours:wink:


you're welcome!
ups it´s late, `have to go sleeping now. Good night.:closedeyes:

[bkwits]

you're welcome!
ups it´s late, `have to go sleeping now. Good night.:closedeyes:
Good night.

[GentleBreeze]

Hm, I speak about a13 year old children, to give such young children a live sentence is in my eyes barbaric. The thing I don´t understand is why there is a juvenile law and if a juvenile do a serious crime there is no juvenile law? juveniles are not adults!
and I don´t call anyone here barbaric….

http://209.85.129.132/search?q=cache:eVGWhfrxVoEJ:webinstituteforteacher s.org/~bobfinn/2003/Old%2520Enough%2520to%2520Kill.doc+Damond+Sanford&hl=de&ct=clnk&cd=11&gl=de

Actually the problem with the juvenile system, Wolfie, it wasn't established for harden violent crimes like murder or rape and certainly not for two murders or more. It was established to rehabilitate non violent youthful offenders but increasingly more and more young people are doing adult like heinous crimes.

We seem to read at least once a month where a young teen has murdered someone or wiped out their entire families. Or children even younger participating in these type crimes. I never thought a juvenile should be given the death penalty so I am glad that doesn't happen anymore.

Judge Roca knows the juvenile system is not set up to handle violent cases like this one. He has stated that already. I think that is the dilemma, juvey is not equipped to handle them and adult prison is too harsh.

Its like these type of juvenile offenders are caught somewhere in between the two type of court systems available.

imo

[bkwits]

Actually the problem with the juvenile system, Wolfie, it wasn't established for harden violent crimes like murder or rape and certainly not for two murders or more. It was established to rehabilitate non violent youthful offenders but increasingly more and more young people are doing adult like heinous crimes.

We seem to read at least once a month where a young teen has murdered someone or wiped out their entire families. Or children even younger participating in these type crimes. I never thought a juvenile should be given the death penalty so I am glad that doesn't happen anymore.

Judge Roca knows the juvenile system is not set up to handle violent cases like this one. He has stated that already. I think that is the dilemma, juvey is not equipped to handle them and adult prison is too harsh.

Its like these type of juvenile offenders are caught somewhere in between the two type of court systems available.

imo
Do you have any statistics to back up your statements?

[GentleBreeze]

Do you have any statistics to back up your statements?

Which ones?

You can probably search Current Crimes or on Family Violence about youthful offenders that have killed. I don't know how far Coldwater keeps them before she deletes some of them off but there has been quite a few in the past year.

imoo

[bkwits]

Which ones?

You can probably search Current Crimes or on Family Violence about youthful offenders that have killed. I don't know how far Coldwater keeps them before she deletes some of them off but there has been quite a few in the past year.

imoo

Oh, I see. It is a generalization of what you think is happening. Ok.

[Kara]

Which ones?

You can probably search Current Crimes or on Family Violence about youthful offenders that have killed. I don't know how far Coldwater keeps them before she deletes some of them off but there has been quite a few in the past year.

imooIn a nation with a population of over 300 million, it would be shocking to me if there is not at least one or more killing by a very youthful offender each and every month....

BTW...I've asked before but I guess you didn't see it.... I know you're not active military so I'm wondering about your sig line. If memory serves me you live in GA....do you have a child that is serving in the military in NC? Or do you just really like that slogan?

[GentleBreeze]

Oh, I see. It is a generalization of what you think is happening. Ok.

I googled and found this link.

http://ojjdp.ncjrs.org/PUBS/reform/ch2_j.html



Today, all 50 States and the District of Columbia allow for juvenile prosecution in criminal court by one or more transfer mechanisms, according to GAO.223 The most common mechanism is judicial waiver, which gives juvenile court judges discretion to waive juvenile cases to adult criminal court. Other transfer mechanisms include direct file, which provides prosecutorial discretion to file criminal charges against juveniles directly in criminal court, and statutory exclusion, which mandates juvenile prosecution in adult court.224

The widespread enactment of legislation enhancing juvenile exposure to criminal prosecution is a direct response to reported escalations of juvenile violent crime in recent years. According to OJJDP, the number of serious crimes, such as murder and aggravated assault, committed by juveniles increased 68 percent from 1988 to 1992.225 Despite recent declines, these rates may worsen, according to reports cited by the Campaign for an Effective Crime Policy (CECP), which predicts that juvenile violent offenses will continue to rise as the number of youth ages 14 to 17 increases 20 percent by the year 2005.226

The dramatic expansion in transfer legislation is based on the premise that some offenses warrant criminal prosecution and some juveniles are beyond rehabilitation. Consequently, State legislation emphasizing accountability by violent juvenile offenders focuses on transferring serious, violent juvenile offenders and habitual offenders, according to GAO.227

[GentleBreeze]

In a nation with a population of over 300 million, it would be shocking to me if there is not at least one or more killing by a very youthful offender each and every month....

BTW...I've asked before but I guess you didn't see it.... I know you're not active military so I'm wondering about your sig line. If memory serves me you live in GA....do you have a child that is serving in the military in NC? Or do you just really like that slogan?

Yes, we do seem to hear of them quite often.

That is O/T Kara so I am not sure if I should answer. I don't want to get in trouble with CW but it has a very personal meaning.

imoo

[Kara]

Yes, we do seem to hear of them quite often.

That is O/T Kara so I am not sure if I should answer. I don't want to get in trouble with CW but it has a very personal meaning.

imoo

I guess you could PM me if you're uncomfortable answering publicly. I think the slogan is very cool...but I'm not active military so I don't think I would use it as a siggie myself...

This forum seems to be kinda laid back since it's not way busy though, so I doubt CW would object. :)

[GentleBreeze]

I guess you could PM me if you're uncomfortable answering publicly. I think the slogan is very cool...but I'm not active military so I don't think I would use it as a siggie myself...

This forum seems to be kinda laid back since it's not way busy though, so I doubt CW would object. :)

Well for me, I wouldn't use anything else.

CW banned Hawk already and I have no earthly idea why. He was very informative and always respectful. Sooooooo:unsure:

Back on topic.

When is the next hearing, if you know?

imoo

[Kara]

Well for me, I wouldn't use anything else.

CW banned Hawk already and I have no earthly idea why. He was very informative and always respectful. Sooooooo:unsure:

Back on topic.

When is the next hearing, if you know?

imooI was at work when Hawk got banned but I did see some rather trollish posts when reading Saturday morning...

But, Hawk's banning shouldn't break the PM function...

Maybe we could do a thread on open court about tag lines if you're afraid to answer here. :)

The next hearing should be some time this month I'm sure.

[muska]

An 11 year decline in youth violence has led the United States Dept of Justice to proclaim, "the offending rates for 14-17 year olds reached the lowest levels ever recorded.(Oct., 2005)

Here's an interesting article from the Baltimore Sun (5/13/01):
http://www.racematters.org/youthcrimedeclinemediaopp.htm

The article discusses the fact that many people think youthful crime is on the increase when in fact the opposite is true.

William Bennett advanced the idea of the "superpredator" in the early to mid 1990s. He suggested that a huge increase in violent youthful offenders was about to occur. He called them "superpredators." Because of his prediction, most states changed laws, pushing more youthful offenders into the adult system. Most evidence shows that the rise in crime never happened, and in fact, juvenile crime rates have decreased. The media, however, continues to push the idea and people continue to falsely believe it's true.

Most info shows that Black and Hispanic youth are treated more harshly in the justice system.

I think Bennett wrote a book about the idea - probably made a bunch of money.

[JD1974]

One of the year's top stories:

http://www.wmicentral.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20232882&BRD=2264&PAG=461&dept_id=505965&rfi=6

I think this happened mid-year.

Apparently in Apache county if you are not a regular citizen, the jury doesn't get to decide reasonable doubt. I always thought reasonable doubt was a court term as opposed to not enough evidence which would be an LE term?

[JD1974]

I don't have much interest in technicalities - but in this case we're dealing with the 'technicality' that there's every reason to believe the confession is false. Including that is in no one's best interests.

Every false little detail they gave him, he echoed back. Every detail they didn't give him, he completely missed on - number of shots, where they were shot, where he left the gun.


I hate when people use the term technicality. Like prosecutors had to drop a case based on a technicality, the technicality being that someone was not given miranda and the only evidence they had was a confession. That is not a technicality that is a violation of someones rights and the media really needs to stop using that word when talking about LE infringing on someones rights to a fair trial, call it what it is instead of making it seem that the person was guilty but because of a technicality they will get off, such BS!

This isn't to you Details just venting about the subject.

[JD1974]

Personally, I think finding the truth is more important than Mirandizing a juvenile....Real justice is served by finding the truth and doing the very best we can to fix this child. Tossing the case because of a tequincality helps no one. I do not think he should be charged as an adult. There needs to be some form of punishment and treatment for real justice to be served.

So should we torture an individual to get to the truth? They tried that google the spanish inquisition. When you do not have laws in place to protect people then you never know if you are getting the truth or if you are getting a story fed to a suspect and forced to make up a confession. We have laws for a reason, they are to protect the innocent also. If you don't mirandize someone and then leave them in a room for hours with no food, water, restroom...and these people do not know they don't have to answer questions and that they can retain a lawyer you aren't wanting the truth about anything, you are wanting to get a confession whether the person is guilty or not.

For one second think of all the innocent people who were forced into giving a false confession, you have no compassion for what they went through? What if it was YOUR son that they did this bs to, would you still be saying you wanted the truth no matter what happened to your son, what if your son was innocent? By your standards we should just say we don't care, we wouldn't want to let him off on a tehcnicality now would we?

It's amazing how fast people change their perspective when it is their loved one in the hot seat, I am willing to bet if they interrogated your son without reading him his miranda you wouldn't be sitting on your high horse claiming you wanted the truth, you would be hiring a lawyer and shouting from the rooftops that your son falsely confessed because he wasn't read his miranda rights and you weren't allowed to be in there with him...would it be his right then or would it still be a technicality?

[JD1974]

It does take them and while the average is 18 to 24 months many remain until they are 18 years old.

Here, perhaps this will help. This is from their website:

General Eligibility

Males between the ages of 11-18

Classified by a Child Study Team as a student with behavioral disabilities

Full scale IQ above 70

Minimum third grade reading level

No uncontrolled aggressive/assaultive behavior

No uncontrolled sexually deviant acting out

No actively psychotic, disorganized behavior that requires a locked psychiatric facility

No physical or medical problems that require full time hospitalization and/or 24 hour nursing service. Final determination regarding acceptability of a resident with a chronic illness or physical disabilities rests with the administrative team after consultation with our pediatrician

No uncontrolled fire setters (Level 3)

Private and Public Referrals considered.

Do you understand what "uncontrolled" means in this context? Uncontrolled agressive/ assaultive and uncontrolled deviant sexual acting out means the child has no control and will act out in a crowded room without a care in the world. The child that grooms and victimizes others behind closed doors using threats is accepted into the program.

These are general guidelines, I know of a few 8 and 9 year olds that have been accepted there as well.

Leaves this boy out, he just started 3rd grade so his reading level isnt at the 3rd grade level yet. Also wouldn't murder be assosicated with aggresive/assaultive behavior, or is that just beating others up and not actually killing them?:confused:

[Details]

I hate when people use the term technicality. Like prosecutors had to drop a case based on a technicality, the technicality being that someone was not given miranda and the only evidence they had was a confession. That is not a technicality that is a violation of someones rights and the media really needs to stop using that word when talking about LE infringing on someones rights to a fair trial, call it what it is instead of making it seem that the person was guilty but because of a technicality they will get off, such BS!

This isn't to you Details just venting about the subject.No problem - but to counter -

Sorry, but when applied to information that clearly and unequivocably identifies a violent criminal (rapist, murderer, kidnapper) - it's still a stinking technicality to me - when someone confesses (a true confession - something that matches the facts, made by an adult in their right mind, giving details that no one else could possibly know or guess) - if the right exact words weren't used - I don't see that as being sufficient cause to ignore the effect on justice and society of letting this person go.

And they often (not in this case) are technicalities. A missed word, a bit of paperwork improperly handled, etc. IMO - those should lead to punishment of the involved officer - but not exclusion of clean incriminatory evidence.

If it's questionable, then fine. But if we're talking about the true confession, the DNA that proves who did the crime, some little error in the search warrent, a missed word or Miranda (when the suspect isn't being held against his will), etc. - I just don't see letting murderers kill again as right. We're not talking about torture, nor anything remotely similar to it. But there are points where a simple, innocent error (which is not the case here) should not result in a murderer going free.

[GentleBreeze]

Leaves this boy out, he just started 3rd grade so his reading level isn't at the 3rd grade level yet. Also wouldn't murder be associated with aggressive/assaultive behavior, or is that just beating others up and not actually killing them?:confused:

But he could have been reading at a third grade level when he was in the second grade. Some children are more advanced that the grade they are in with some subjects.

imoo

[bkwits]

An 11 year decline in youth violence has led the United States Dept of Justice to proclaim, "the offending rates for 14-17 year olds reached the lowest levels ever recorded.(Oct., 2005)

Here's an interesting article from the Baltimore Sun (5/13/01):
http://www.racematters.org/youthcrimedeclinemediaopp.htm

The article discusses the fact that many people think youthful crime is on the increase when in fact the opposite is true.

William Bennett advanced the idea of the "superpredator" in the early to mid 1990s. He suggested that a huge increase in violent youthful offenders was about to occur. He called them "superpredators." Because of his prediction, most states changed laws, pushing more youthful offenders into the adult system. Most evidence shows that the rise in crime never happened, and in fact, juvenile crime rates have decreased. The media, however, continues to push the idea and people continue to falsely believe it's true.

Most info shows that Black and Hispanic youth are treated more harshly in the justice system.

I think Bennett wrote a book about the idea - probably made a bunch of money.


Yes, I agree. However, you and GB are talking of two different statistics. Yours is the RATE of juvenile crime in the general population. GB is citing numbers which of course will rise with the population increase.

Thank you for your insightful and informative post. :rose:

[muska]

Yes, I agree. However, you and GB are talking of two different statistics. Yours is the RATE of juvenile crime in the general population. GB is citing numbers which of course will rise with the population increase.

Thank you for your insightful and informative post. :rose:

GBs info states that juvenile crime increased between 1988 and 1992 and the writer suggested a large increase by 2005. In fact, by 2005 the juvenile crime rate had dropped to the lowest rate ever....if I understand the stats correctly. I could be wrong.

[bkwits]

No problem - but to counter -

Sorry, but when applied to information that clearly and unequivocably identifies a violent criminal (rapist, murderer, kidnapper) - it's still a stinking technicality to me - when someone confesses (a true confession - something that matches the facts, made by an adult in their right mind, giving details that no one else could possibly know or guess) - if the right exact words weren't used - I don't see that as being sufficient cause to ignore the effect on justice and society of letting this person go.

And they often (not in this case) are technicalities. A missed word, a bit of paperwork improperly handled, etc. IMO - those should lead to punishment of the involved officer - but not exclusion of clean incriminatory evidence.

If it's questionable, then fine. But if we're talking about the true confession, the DNA that proves who did the crime, some little error in the search warrent, a missed word or Miranda (when the suspect isn't being held against his will), etc. - I just don't see letting murderers kill again as right. We're not talking about torture, nor anything remotely similar to it. But there are points where a simple, innocent error (which is not the case here) should not result in a murderer going free.

Well, in the greater Chicagoland area, I doubt that many violent offenders go free because of such minor technicalities. It is more often around here that citizen's rights are violated and innocent people, including children, are imprisoned. Since 1977, when we reinstuted the death penalty, more death row prisoners have been completely exonerated than have been executed. That is why the IL governor put a moritorium on executions. Those death row prisoners were not freed because of a minor technicality. They were found to be innocent of the crime, mostly because of DNA results.

It is scary when you realize how far some cops and prosecutors go to arrest and find someone guilty.


IMO

[JD1974]

Here is one for you...a teenager in Arkansas gets the death penalty!

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9901E3DF1039F932A25752C0A9609582 60

He was 16 when he committed the crime.



16 with borderline intelligence and we are supposed to have the best justice system in the world. This is just disgusting, what he did to that poor woman is no better, an eye for an eye and all you end up with is a world full of blind people. I hope the jury cannot sleep at night knowing they sentenced this kid to death, how can anyone sleep at night knowing they are killing someone? The only difference between a murder and the death penalty is the method.

[IAMME]

16 with borderline intelligence and we are supposed to have the best justice system in the world. This is just disgusting, what he did to that poor woman is no better, an eye for an eye and all you end up with is a world full of blind people. I hope the jury cannot sleep at night knowing they sentenced this kid to death, how can anyone sleep at night knowing they are killing someone? The only difference between a murder and the death penalty is the method.

His sentence was overturned by the Arkansas Supreme Court bc his atty did not do his job. In an article I just read it stated that this boys IQ was 67, he was almost suffocated when a truck load of cotton seed fell on him and that his sister had hit him in the head when he was very small with a 2x4 board. It sounds to me as if DHS should have been involved in this case, long before he was 16, I dont know if they were, but TRUST me in arkansas it wouldnt really matter our DHS is a JOKE. We have a 27% higher rate of unsubstaniated reports of child abuse than the national average, (pls dont ask me for a link bc I have long since lost it) and we are THE ONLY state in the union that has civilians running investigations into child sexual abuse, they must have a BA (it is not specified in what) and 6 months exp. working with children and they can go to work for the state police as investigators. Sorry my very own personal pet peeve.......

[GentleBreeze]

16 with borderline intelligence and we are supposed to have the best justice system in the world. This is just disgusting, what he did to that poor woman is no better, an eye for an eye and all you end up with is a world full of blind people. I hope the jury cannot sleep at night knowing they sentenced this kid to death, how can anyone sleep at night knowing they are killing someone? The only difference between a murder and the death penalty is the method.

That boy was given death before the Supreme Court came down with their decision that no one under 18 can get the death penalty so all of those cases have been commuted to LWOP.


That and it is legal in this country. Many times the death penalty administered is much humane than what was inflicted on the victims.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

GBs info states that juvenile crime increased between 1988 and 1992 and the writer suggested a large increase by 2005. In fact, by 2005 the juvenile crime rate had dropped to the lowest rate ever....if I understand the stats correctly. I could be wrong.

I read that 25% of all violent crimes are committed by a youthful offender. Since we have over 10,000+ murders in this country yearly it shows quite a few juveniles are committing those murders.

Then we have rapes, robberies and attempted murders also to throw into the equation and the site I was reading said that the 25% is overall violent crimes.

I sure would like to see the stats for 2006,2007 and 2008 because it seems like every time I turn around, another youthful offender has committed a violent crime. And the only ones that can be added to any stats are the ones who have been found and convicted and I also read that about 62% of violent crimes are solved. So that makes the stats skewed with the other cases being unsolved and age of perp unknown, imo.

imoo

[JD1974]

No problem - but to counter -

Sorry, but when applied to information that clearly and unequivocably identifies a violent criminal (rapist, murderer, kidnapper) - it's still a stinking technicality to me - when someone confesses (a true confession - something that matches the facts, made by an adult in their right mind, giving details that no one else could possibly know or guess) - if the right exact words weren't used - I don't see that as being sufficient cause to ignore the effect on justice and society of letting this person go.

And they often (not in this case) are technicalities. A missed word, a bit of paperwork improperly handled, etc. IMO - those should lead to punishment of the involved officer - but not exclusion of clean incriminatory evidence.

If it's questionable, then fine. But if we're talking about the true confession, the DNA that proves who did the crime, some little error in the search warrent, a missed word or Miranda (when the suspect isn't being held against his will), etc. - I just don't see letting murderers kill again as right. We're not talking about torture, nor anything remotely similar to it. But there are points where a simple, innocent error (which is not the case here) should not result in a murderer going free.


I agree with that but it also can go the other way, I remember reading a case where the def had a case for true innocence based on DNA, his lawyer filed under the wrong statue and was denied, by the time he filed under the right one his time was up. I was more meaning a case not being thrown out but maybe evidence being thrown out because LE didn't get a proper warrant, that isn't a technicality that is the law that protects innocent people also.

[JD1974]

His sentence was overturned by the Arkansas Supreme Court bc his atty did not do his job. In an article I just read it stated that this boys IQ was 67, he was almost suffocated when a truck load of cotton seed fell on him and that his sister had hit him in the head when he was very small with a 2x4 board. It sounds to me as if DHS should have been involved in this case, long before he was 16, I dont know if they were, but TRUST me in arkansas it wouldnt really matter our DHS is a JOKE. We have a 27% higher rate of unsubstaniated reports of child abuse than the national average, (pls dont ask me for a link bc I have long since lost it) and we are THE ONLY state in the union that has civilians running investigations into child sexual abuse, they must have a BA (it is not specified in what) and 6 months exp. working with children and they can go to work for the state police as investigators. Sorry my very own personal pet peeve.......


I am glad to hear that! My major problems with our justice system are the mentally impaired ( the thing that bothers me the most is the mentally impaired who are over by 1 point on an IQ test being treated as a normal person) and of course children being charged as adults. I read the article posted up above and realized that these kids cannot even go to the movies and watch an R rated movie yet they are adults in the eyes of the law. Before anyone goes on with that is a privledge, a privledge is something you earn, you do not earn age, the only reason you can watch an R rated movie is because you aged. You do not need to take a test, do not need to do anything special except celebrate birthdays.

[catdoc]

Excuse me but could someone direct me to the links thread on this case? I can't find all the evidence you all are referring too while I've been reading these threads.

[catdoc]

Nevermind...I found it! BBL

[Details]

I agree with that but it also can go the other way, I remember reading a case where the def had a case for true innocence based on DNA, his lawyer filed under the wrong statue and was denied, by the time he filed under the right one his time was up. I was more meaning a case not being thrown out but maybe evidence being thrown out because LE didn't get a proper warrant, that isn't a technicality that is the law that protects innocent people also.Oh yeah - proof of absolute guilt or absolute innocence should never be subject to a technicality.

[Pag Boi]

I read that 25% of all violent crimes are committed by a youthful offender. Since we have over 10,000+ murders in this country yearly it shows quite a few juveniles are committing those murders.

Then we have rapes, robberies and attempted murders also to throw into the equation and the site I was reading said that the 25% is overall violent crimes.

I sure would like to see the stats for 2006,2007 and 2008 because it seems like every time I turn around, another youthful offender has committed a violent crime. And the only ones that can be added to any stats are the ones who have been found and convicted and I also read that about 62% of violent crimes are solved. So that makes the stats skewed with the other cases being unsolved and age of perp unknown, imo.

imoo


You sure offer up a lot of imo.

Why not provide the link(s) to your fascinating and enlightening information you provide above? TIA

[Pag Boi]

From an article dated 11/7/08:

Melnick commended the great efforts and work of all of the officers involved in the investigation and all of the civilian support personnel from the three law enforcement agencies for their expertise, professionalism and teamwork. He said he and his team are "...deeply saddened by this tragedy and our hearts go out to the families of the victims."

http://www.wmicentral.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20190155&BRD=2264&PAG=461&dept_id=505965&rfi=6


LE did all that in less than 20 hours. Good job!

Tanya wasn't contacted by LE to verify her whereabouts. They let her mama call her & talk b/f mama handed the phone over :rolleyes:

I see a poster keep saying she lived 170mi away. Yet one of her coworkers was right across from the crime scene at 18:35.

LE skipped the first rule of investigation - work from the inside out. Do they even know what Tanya had to gain from Tim's death? Tanya has a job but Tim was sole supporter? They lived on a reservation so they most likely had income and/or benefits as part of the Apache Nation population.

To date, has LE even talked to Amos? Or the Mex. Nats that were rumbling with the victims one month or one night ago (depending on what statement you read)?

All the coworkers were like family? If true, it seems a very dysfunctional family. There were fights over Tim not safely operating machinery, custody of the keys to equipment, language barriers, turf wars, time off, practical jokes? Hardly minor family scrapes in my book. Then the LE statement says - Amos quit, was fired, got laid off. Tim got his job 6 months ago even tho Amos left in Oct. Coworkers say to ask Dana, who was at his "brother cousin." Whatever a brother cousin is?

Less than 20 hrs, assisting LE was told to abandon all investigations b/c the case officers had the perp. This is just the worst 'solved crime' ever JMOO. I am beginning to think LE can't even catch the right stooge in that jurisdiction. :cuss:



All above JMOO tho :shrug:

[GentleBreeze]

You sure offer up a lot of imo.

Why not provide the link(s) to your fascinating and enlightening information you provide above? TIA

http://books.google.com/books?id=CUgJhMwwQ28C&pg=PA293&lpg=PA293&dq=violent+crimes+committed+by+juveniles&source=web&ots=vE_m03jKPs&sig=RQ31x4GIWoBgwZ6gemkHpEBesdE&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=7&ct=result#PPA294,M1

[LindaNJ1216]

Leaves this boy out, he just started 3rd grade so his reading level isnt at the 3rd grade level yet. Also wouldn't murder be assosicated with aggresive/assaultive behavior, or is that just beating others up and not actually killing them?:confused:You obviously still do not understand what UNCONTROLLED means. Can't say I didn't try. Here ya go again....from the previous post....



"Do you understand what "uncontrolled" means in this context? Uncontrolled agressive/ assaultive and uncontrolled deviant sexual acting out means the child has no control and will act out in a crowded room without a care in the world. The child that grooms and victimizes others behind closed doors using threats is accepted into the program.

These are general guidelines, I know of a few 8 and 9 year olds that have been accepted there as well."



"

[Justice_Dawg]

From an article dated 11/7/08:



http://www.wmicentral.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20190155&BRD=2264&PAG=461&dept_id=505965&rfi=6


LE did all that in less than 20 hours. Good job!

Tanya wasn't contacted by LE to verify her whereabouts. They let her mama call her & talk b/f mama handed the phone over :rolleyes:

I see a poster keep saying she lived 170mi away. Yet one of her coworkers was right across from the crime scene at 18:35.

LE skipped the first rule of investigation - work from the inside out. Do they even know what Tanya had to gain from Tim's death? Tanya has a job but Tim was sole supporter? They lived on a reservation so they most likely had income and/or benefits as part of the Apache Nation population.

To date, has LE even talked to Amos? Or the Mex. Nats that were rumbling with the victims one month or one night ago (depending on what statement you read)?

All the coworkers were like family? If true, it seems a very dysfunctional family. There were fights over Tim not safely operating machinery, custody of the keys to equipment, language barriers, turf wars, time off, practical jokes? Hardly minor family scrapes in my book. Then the LE statement says - Amos quit, was fired, got laid off. Tim got his job 6 months ago even tho Amos left in Oct. Coworkers say to ask Dana, who was at his "brother cousin." Whatever a brother cousin is?

Less than 20 hrs, assisting LE was told to abandon all investigations b/c the case officers had the perp. This is just the worst 'solved crime' ever JMOO. I am beginning to think LE can't even catch the right stooge in that jurisdiction. :cuss:



All above JMOO tho :shrug:

Great Post!!

[Justice_Dawg]

I wonder what will happen today in court. Any guesses?

[wolfi_2]

I am glad to hear that! My major problems with our justice system are the mentally impaired ( the thing that bothers me the most is the mentally impaired who are over by 1 point on an IQ test being treated as a normal person) and of course children being charged as adults. I read the article posted up above and realized that these kids cannot even go to the movies and watch an R rated movie yet they are adults in the eyes of the law. Before anyone goes on with that is a privledge, a privledge is something you earn, you do not earn age, the only reason you can watch an R rated movie is because you aged. You do not need to take a test, do not need to do anything special except celebrate birthdays.

if a offender get lifetime here in Germany, he would be in prison for a maximum time about 25 years, depending of the rehabilitation process he was able to get school and work practice, all, really all offender are able to get into the rehabilitation process, only if all that fails a offender had to stay in prison. Even the most hardened terrorist and murders of the 70s are free after 25 years. -For me, the most disturbing of the US justice is, that very young children (11,12,13 year olds)are send to adult court and prison, that they can get live without parole and no chance to get rehabilitated, that means there is no hope ever, no one little light for them. And I won't imagine where young children going through in adult prison, maybe that´s what people want for children as punishment, but it´s cruel and again barbaric.

Rehabilitation, I don´t know why this is working all over the rest of the western world but not in the US? are the US kids more bad then the European? I don´t think so. A different will make that guns are not easy to get for a kid in Europe, our weapon law has a lot more restrictions, so all weapon must be save locked away, out of reach for children. If it nevertheless happened (not a long time ago, a 11 year old shoot his mom and his little 4 year old sister to death) the dad got blamed for not locking away his weapons.
I won´t say the US should change there weapon's law, if the people are happy with it, I wish the US would make it a little more save because of the children.

Fyodor Dostoevsky wrote, that a society should be "judged not by how it treats its outstanding citizens but by how it treats its criminals.''

[muska]

IIRC, the cigarettes and lighter were found by his left foot? It was his right arm. The blood trail extended from his body to the north end of the driveway.

From Sgt Guinn's report:
"
Movingleft(eastacrossfront ofhouse)from thedoorIobservedapack ofcamelcigarettes, ablue Bic lighter, two Sinex nasal inhalers and a visine bottle, lying on the porch near Romans' left foot. A line of blood spatter was noted leading from the body to the north end of the drive way."

Justice Dawg - All this stuff lying beside Tim bothers me. I don't see him holding on to it as he ran from or toward a shooter, and I can't see it all falling out of his pocket. Since you investigate this sort of thing, what do you think? How possible is it that the shooter was looking for something and went through Tim's pockets? The unwanted items could have been left there beside Tim. Or is there another explanation for this stuff just lying there beside him? Thanks!!

[wolfi_2]

I wonder what will happen today in court. Any guesses?


not today, tomorow 9:00 AM:biggrin:


I hope they throw out the interview, and the evidence, collected during a false search warrant.

[Justice_Dawg]

Justice Dawg - All this stuff lying beside Tim bothers me. I don't see him holding on to it as he ran from or toward a shooter, and I can't see it all falling out of his pocket. Since you investigate this sort of thing, what do you think? How possible is it that the shooter was looking for something and went through Tim's pockets? The unwanted items could have been left there beside Tim. Or is there another explanation for this stuff just lying there beside him? Thanks!!
I thought someone went through his pockets also, but leaving a wallet with 5- $100 bills doesn't make sense, unless, they were looking for something else and found it.

It bothers me that Romero had cigs and lighter lying by him too, and he doesn't smoke.

[Justice_Dawg]

not today, tomorow 9:00 AM:biggrin:


I hope they throw out the interview, and the evidence, collected during a false search warrant.

NO! NO FAIR! I have a divorce hearing at 10am tomorrow!!! :cursing:

[wolfi_2]

I thought someone went through his pockets also, but leaving a wallet with 5- $100 bills doesn't make sense, unless, they were looking for something else and found it.

It bothers me that Romero had cigs and lighter lying by him too, and he doesn't smoke.

he doesn´t smoke? -sure? that would give the whole case another turnaround!

[Justice_Dawg]

he doesn´t smoke? -sure? that would give the whole case another turnaround!
Yep, doesn't smoke.
Transcripts, first hearing Nov. 7th.

[wolfi_2]

NO! NO FAIR! I have a divorce hearing at 10am tomorrow!!! :cursing:



I think it would be later in the news around 12 noon

[muska]

I thought someone went through his pockets also, but leaving a wallet with 5- $100 bills doesn't make sense, unless, they were looking for something else and found it.

It bothers me that Romero had cigs and lighter lying by him too, and he doesn't smoke.

I didn't know there were cigarettes/lighter by VR. I wonder if they tested any of it for fingerprints. Do we know if TRs wallet was in his pocket? Maybe he left it in the truck. Also, one of the men interviewed thought a second gun should have been in Tim's truck. That may be missing.....what a mess.

[Kara]

Wolfi, I'm curious about the recidivism rate in your country. The most serious offenders are released after 25 years....do they usually go on to live productive lives or do they usually end up committing another crime and returning to prison?

[muska]

if a offender get lifetime here in Germany, he would be in prison for a maximum time about 25 years, depending of the rehabilitation process he was able to get school and work practice, all, really all offender are able to get into the rehabilitation process, only if all that fails a offender had to stay in prison. Even the most hardened terrorist and murders of the 70s are free after 25 years. -For me, the most disturbing of the US justice is, that very young children (11,12,13 year olds)are send to adult court and prison, that they can get live without parole and no chance to get rehabilitated, that means there is no hope ever, no one little light for them. And I won't imagine where young children going through in adult prison, maybe that´s what people want for children as punishment, but it´s cruel and again barbaric.

Rehabilitation, I don´t know why this is working all over the rest of the western world but not in the US? are the US kids more bad then the European? I don´t think so. A different will make that guns are not easy to get for a kid in Europe, our weapon law has a lot more restrictions, so all weapon must be save locked away, out of reach for children. If it nevertheless happened (not a long time ago, a 11 year old shoot his mom and his little 4 year old sister to death) the dad got blamed for not locking away his weapons.
I won´t say the US should change there weapon's law, if the people are happy with it, I wish the US would make it a little more save because of the children.

Fyodor Dostoevsky wrote, that a society should be "judged not by how it treats its outstanding citizens but by how it treats its criminals.''

I like that quote!!

[Justice_Dawg]

Justice Dawg - All this stuff lying beside Tim bothers me. I don't see him holding on to it as he ran from or toward a shooter, and I can't see it all falling out of his pocket. Since you investigate this sort of thing, what do you think? How possible is it that the shooter was looking for something and went through Tim's pockets? The unwanted items could have been left there beside Tim. Or is there another explanation for this stuff just lying there beside him? Thanks!!

They didn't take any of it into evidence. Did you know that? :scared:

[muska]

They didn't take any of it into evidence. Did you know that? :scared:

I didn't know, but sadly I'm not surprised.

[Details]

if a offender get lifetime here in Germany, he would be in prison for a maximum time about 25 years, depending of the rehabilitation process he was able to get school and work practice, all, really all offender are able to get into the rehabilitation process, only if all that fails a offender had to stay in prison. Even the most hardened terrorist and murders of the 70s are free after 25 years. -For me, the most disturbing of the US justice is, that very young children (11,12,13 year olds)are send to adult court and prison, that they can get live without parole and no chance to get rehabilitated, that means there is no hope ever, no one little light for them. And I won't imagine where young children going through in adult prison, maybe that´s what people want for children as punishment, but it´s cruel and again barbaric.

Rehabilitation, I don´t know why this is working all over the rest of the western world but not in the US? are the US kids more bad then the European? I don´t think so. A different will make that guns are not easy to get for a kid in Europe, our weapon law has a lot more restrictions, so all weapon must be save locked away, out of reach for children. If it nevertheless happened (not a long time ago, a 11 year old shoot his mom and his little 4 year old sister to death) the dad got blamed for not locking away his weapons.
I won´t say the US should change there weapon's law, if the people are happy with it, I wish the US would make it a little more save because of the children.

Fyodor Dostoevsky wrote, that a society should be "judged not by how it treats its outstanding citizens but by how it treats its criminals.''IMO - because the USA doesn't do that much about rehabilitation. It's about punishment, and locking them away - not rehabilitation. I think that's just so wrong - throwing away people, some of whom should be able to be reclaimed, locking people up for however many years with a bunch of other criminals and little to no rehabilitation, then releasing them on society and being surprised when they haven't changed.

[bkwits]

I wonder what will happen today in court. Any guesses?

Today? I thought it was tomorrow.

[FurthurBB]

An 11 year decline in youth violence has led the United States Dept of Justice to proclaim, "the offending rates for 14-17 year olds reached the lowest levels ever recorded.(Oct., 2005)

Here's an interesting article from the Baltimore Sun (5/13/01):
http://www.racematters.org/youthcrimedeclinemediaopp.htm

The article discusses the fact that many people think youthful crime is on the increase when in fact the opposite is true.

William Bennett advanced the idea of the "superpredator" in the early to mid 1990s. He suggested that a huge increase in violent youthful offenders was about to occur. He called them "superpredators." Because of his prediction, most states changed laws, pushing more youthful offenders into the adult system. Most evidence shows that the rise in crime never happened, and in fact, juvenile crime rates have decreased. The media, however, continues to push the idea and people continue to falsely believe it's true.

Most info shows that Black and Hispanic youth are treated more harshly in the justice system.

I think Bennett wrote a book about the idea - probably made a bunch of money.


All crime is on the decrease, even though we see more crime on television. Crime rises and falls with the increase and decrease in the crime committing cohort. The crime committing cohort consists of boys 14/15-23. This does not explain why the US has such a high rate of violent crimes and a low rate of property crimes, but, the crime rate in every country reflects this same trend. IMO

[bkwits]

NO! NO FAIR! I have a divorce hearing at 10am tomorrow!!! :cursing:

I think that will be 11 AM in your time zone. Maybe your case will go quickly.

[FurthurBB]

16 with borderline intelligence and we are supposed to have the best justice system in the world. This is just disgusting, what he did to that poor woman is no better, an eye for an eye and all you end up with is a world full of blind people. I hope the jury cannot sleep at night knowing they sentenced this kid to death, how can anyone sleep at night knowing they are killing someone? The only difference between a murder and the death penalty is the method.


Come on now, we should know better than this. "the best ..." justice system, medical system, education system .. whatever you want to put in there, is either a figment of our imagination or has not been the case since the fifties. IMO

[muska]

I thought someone went through his pockets also, but leaving a wallet with 5- $100 bills doesn't make sense, unless, they were looking for something else and found it.

It bothers me that Romero had cigs and lighter lying by him too, and he doesn't smoke.

Would one of the early officers have gone through their pockets?

[bkwits]

I thought someone went through his pockets also, but leaving a wallet with 5- $100 bills doesn't make sense, unless, they were looking for something else and found it.

It bothers me that Romero had cigs and lighter lying by him too, and he doesn't smoke.

Romero had cigs and lighter by him? I don't remember that. :confused:

[PensiveOne]

I hadn't seen this crime scene photo before...but look at the gravel spread across the street. Could that be from a car taking off really fast, as the boy suggested?

http://www.wmicentral.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20232889&BRD=2264&PAG=461&dept_id=505965&rfi=6

[Justice_Dawg]

I think that will be 11 AM in your time zone. Maybe your case will go quickly.

I hope it does, but we are fighting over % of 1/2 million and who gets the 30 acres of lakefront land in Pa. I don't want the land, it is by his parents, so I want 65% of the estate, I think that's fair! I hope the SOB loses, only because he never even asked for any custody of our 12 yr old. He just wants visitaion "at his leisure". He is NOT HUMAN! So far this divorce has taken 3 years.

Wouldn't it be cool if the boy and I both won on the same day?? :thumbsup:

[Justice_Dawg]

I hadn't seen this crime scene photo before...but look at the gravel spread across the street. Could that be from a car taking off really fast, as the boy suggested?

http://www.wmicentral.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20232889&BRD=2264&PAG=461&dept_id=505965&rfi=6

Who can say for sure. 10 cop cars had already been in and out of there. That is what Brewer has been saying.... Crime scene contaminated!

[muska]

Would a .22 pistol shoot the same bullets/casings as the boy's rifle? Sorry for what I'm sure is a very uninformed question.

[LindaNJ1216]

I kind of figured they wouldn't-why bother testing for fingerprints on any of that stuff? This is Mayberry, ya know!

By the way...I was up late reading transcripts and noticed a couple of things that confused me.

The officer who went to see Tim's mom said she heard Tanya screaming through the phone and saying that then told him on the phone that Tim told her that the boy was calling her into the house. I thought that was supposed to have happened the next morning at the funeral home???
http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/jones%20BO.pdf

Also-on another report it says that they decided that what they learned from Tanya told them there were two scenarios. One is that the boy did it. The other, more likely one, was that he was there and saw who did it and was protecting someone. (Darn it I can't find the right report where I read that now!!!)

Sounds to me that he most certainly WAS a suspect at that time, then, no??? And still no parents, lawyers, Mirandas, anything???:angry:


we can't use his first name, don't want to see ya get in trouble. Please edit it out

[muska]

Just happened upon this article - it says, "Casing studies have little value because casings will roll when they hit the ground or richochet off walls or objects." After I saw this one, I looked for others. I didn't have time to read much but they seemed to say the same thing.

http://www.crime-scene-investigator.net/ejectionpatterns.html

I'd still like to know where the Mossberg was that afternoon.

[Justice_Dawg]

I kind of figured they wouldn't-why bother testing for fingerprints on any of that stuff? This is Mayberry, ya know!

By the way...I was up late reading transcripts and noticed a couple of things that confused me.

The officer who went to see Tim's mom said she heard Tanya screaming through the phone and saying that then told him on the phone that Tim told her that the boy was calling her into the house. I thought that was supposed to have happened the next morning at the funeral home???
http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/jones%20BO.pdf

Also-on another report it says that they decided that what they learned from Tanya told them there were two scenarios. One is that the boy did it. The other, more likely one, was that he was there and saw who did it and was protecting someone. (Darn it I can't find the right report where I read that now!!!)

Sounds to me that he most certainly WAS a suspect at that time, then, no??? And still no parents, lawyers, Mirandas, anything???:angry:

Hogel only told what he knew (testimony Nov. 7th). This is the way they get people held over. They don't tell EVERYTHING.

[Justice_Dawg]

Would a .22 pistol shoot the same bullets/casings as the boy's rifle? Sorry for what I'm sure is a very uninformed question.

yes they sure do. They sound like a "Pop" too.

[Justice_Dawg]

Just happened upon this article - it says, "Casing studies have little value because casings will roll when they hit the ground or richochet off walls or objects." After I saw this one, I looked for others. I didn't have time to read much but they seemed to say the same thing.

http://www.crime-scene-investigator.net/ejectionpatterns.html

I'd still like to know where the Mossberg was that afternoon.

I'd like to know where the missing casing is.

[PensiveOne]

Who can say for sure. 10 cop cars had already been in and out of there. That is what Brewer has been saying.... Crime scene contaminated!

That's true enough. It was probably dark when they took pictures right after, so there is probably no way to know.

[bkwits]

I hope it does, but we are fighting over % of 1/2 million and who gets the 30 acres of lakefront land in Pa. I don't want the land, it is by his parents, so I want 65% of the estate, I think that's fair! I hope the SOB loses, only because he never even asked for any custody of our 12 yr old. He just wants visitaion "at his leisure". He is NOT HUMAN! So far this divorce has taken 3 years.

Wouldn't it be cool if the boy and I both won on the same day?? :thumbsup:


Oh, I thought the divorce hearing was for one of your cases. It may be settled before you go into court. That happens sometimes.

I'm keeping everything crossed for you and the child. Good luck. :thumbsup:

[LindaNJ1216]

Thanks for the heads up, but you quoted me too! Can you edit yours???

I edited it in my post ...after I posted it:rolleyes:

I had to go back & fix it

[JD1974]

IMO - because the USA doesn't do that much about rehabilitation. It's about punishment, and locking them away - not rehabilitation. I think that's just so wrong - throwing away people, some of whom should be able to be reclaimed, locking people up for however many years with a bunch of other criminals and little to no rehabilitation, then releasing them on society and being surprised when they haven't changed.


I posted this on another thread but it goes with this case also. This is imo what we should do about juvenile offenders, take some lessons from England but add in a few more restrictions. Ok here goes..

Charge children as children, put them in a place that is about rehabilitation. Let them live life like they would on the outside except they cannot leave, by that I mean give them proper schooling and constant therapy. When they turn 18/21 have them go through a process kind of like parole to see if they can be a productive member of society. These children would be monitored 24/7 by people like correctional officers but the whole premise would be trying to make them responsible adults who could re-enter society and have a meaningful life. Obviously if you have children in there for whom there is really no hope for then give them an adult sentence, but I think a lot of kids could be set on the right path.

This would of course cost a lot of money but wouldn't it be worth it if you could save a childs life instead of just throwing it away because they had committed a crime? It would take a lot of work but to me saving a child is worth it. The children that are put there would have to be treated like normal children though, not like some of the stories you hear about "juvie". Instead of having guards have social workers and psychiatrists who truly would want to help the children. They would be locked up though so it wouldn't be just like being at home, but as much as a normal life as possible.

It wouldn't work for all kids of course and not all of them would be able to be rehabilitated but even if we could save 25-50% of these kids wouldn't it be worth it?


I haven't quite worked out what exactly would happen to the kids deemed beyond help, I am kind of still working on it. Also the kids I am talking about are the ones that would be aged up until 16 or 17.

[Justice_Dawg]

Oh, I thought the divorce hearing was for one of your cases. It may be settled before you go into court. That happens sometimes.

I'm keeping everything crossed for you and the child. Good luck. :thumbsup:

I hope so. My attorney said the same thing but he hasn't called me yet.

Thank you! We need all the crossed everything we can get. :biggrin:

[LindaNJ1216]

I hope so. My attorney said the same thing but he hasn't called me yet.

Thank you! We need all the crossed everything we can get. :biggrin:

Good-luck! 65% sounds fair. I really have no respect for men that can't make time for their children. :cursing:

Our son is the only thing I know my husband & I would never fight about if we were ever to divorce.
The rest would be fair game though:sneaky:

[PensiveOne]

There are a couple of new docs up on the court site.

[Justice_Dawg]

Gunshot residue found on accused boy's clothing
January 5th, 2009 @ 10:37am
by Associated Press
FLAGSTAFF, Ariz. -- Gunshot residue was found on the clothing of an Arizona boy charged in the deaths of his father and another man, but a report on the examination doesn't specifically identify the boy as the shooter.
The report released by prosecutors Monday says the boy might have come into contact with a discharged firearm or was in close proximity to a firearm.

Lead, barium and antimony, known to be associated with primer gunshot residue, were found on a pair of pants and a long-sleeved shirt belonging to the boy.

Police have said the boy used a .22-caliber rifle to shoot his father, 29-year-old Vincent Romero, and 39-year-old Timothy Romans in St. Johns on Nov. 5.


http://ktar.com/?nid=6&sid=1019177

[LindaNJ1216]

Gunshot residue found on accused boy's clothing
January 5th, 2009 @ 10:37am
by Associated Press
FLAGSTAFF, Ariz. -- Gunshot residue was found on the clothing of an Arizona boy charged in the deaths of his father and another man, but a report on the examination doesn't specifically identify the boy as the shooter.
The report released by prosecutors Monday says the boy might have come into contact with a discharged firearm or was in close proximity to a firearm.

Lead, barium and antimony, known to be associated with primer gunshot residue, were found on a pair of pants and a long-sleeved shirt belonging to the boy.

Police have said the boy used a .22-caliber rifle to shoot his father, 29-year-old Vincent Romero, and 39-year-old Timothy Romans in St. Johns on Nov. 5.


http://ktar.com/?nid=6&sid=1019177


Are you surprised?

[wolfi_2]

Wolfi, I'm curious about the recidivism rate in your country. The most serious offenders are released after 25 years....do they usually go on to live productive lives or do they usually end up committing another crime and returning to prison?



The highest goal of our society is to offer to each Delinquent the possibility of rehabilitation (free translated)

I´m not a lawyer, so the information I write is based on that, I can find in the net and about that I know.
-Every case would be proved for all live sentence by a commission, if they say, the offender isn´t a danger for the community anymore, he can go after a minimum time of 15 years (if he get live sentence) in special cases ,if the court fill´s "a special heavy of the debt" the minimum time is 20 years. If "preventive detention after completion" of the live sentence is ordered, then it´s a real life sentence. Juveniles (14-18) can be sentenced to a maximum time of fifteen years for serious crimes and even if they are sentenced to 15 years, they would normally not stay that long time in juvenile prison. I can't find any serious data about the recidivism rate for murders, but If I find some serious data I post it with a link. I think for "normal" not mental sick murders the rate is very close to zero. The recidivism rate for normal low crimes tends around by 30 to 50% and I think that´s the (unfortunately) normal rate around the world. I can remember only a very few cases, where murders do it again and they all are not sentenced to Lifetime, most of those offenders where mental sick and the therapies doesn´t work. I agree that our system isn´t perfect, especially if a murder do it again. But that is the bill we have to pay for a "human rights for all" based system, I personal would like to see the death penalty for a very few cases, if children are murdered, but our constitution respect the human rights for everyone, even for the very bad people. About the terrorist and murders, the last one was released last month, I know that the other ones all have a job and pay there taxes, I read about one, who should be a teacher…?!, don´t know what kind of school. Did I think if it´s OK ? I don´t know, one point of view said Yes, they aren't dangerous anymore, my other point of view said no, there crime was to serious. But at least I tend more (55%) to the it's OK version.
In this case, if the boy is guilty and do the shooting´s, I hope he will get the help he needed, but I have my doubt´s against closed facility´s, specially for that young children, My personal meaning is, You can´t punish a child with a long time of incarnation because that will produce hate after a short time, kid´s need close relatives like their mom or dad around, people who love them, even if they do very bad thing´s. Long time of incarnation It is not good for a child and at last maybe not good for the community later on. I unfortunately I can´t say how the victim family get justice in this case, justice that serve all involved parties interest´s. I personal had a idea how I would do it, but that would not be practicable by law.

[Justice_Dawg]

Are you surprised?

The report released by prosecutors Monday says the boy might have come into contact with a discharged firearm or was in close proximity to a firearm.

Why would they add that tid-bit to a report?

[LindaNJ1216]

The report released by prosecutors Monday says the boy might have come into contact with a discharged firearm or was in close proximity to a firearm.

Why would they add that tid-bit to a report?


Keep grasping at straws.

It's no different than expert reports stating a decomposing body may have been in Casey Anthony's car.

Common sense apparently isn't all that common eh?

[Justice_Dawg]

Keep grasping at straws.

It's no different than expert reports stating a decomposing body may have been in Casey Anthony's car.

Common sense apparently isn't all that common eh?
He touched the gun after it was used. That's all that says. It would have been worded differently if he were the shooter eh?

[LindaNJ1216]

He touched the gun after it was used. That's all that says. It would have been worded differently if he were the shooter eh?

And rubbed it all over his sleeves and the front of his pants? Okay:rolleyes:

Pegging this child as a murderer doesn't bring me any joy. I truly wish I had been wrong.

[Justice_Dawg]

And rubbed it all over his sleeves and the front of his pants? Okay:rolleyes:

Pegging this child as a murderer doesn't bring me any joy. I truly wish I had been wrong.

If you are going to peg him as the killer, I'd like to know what they did to this boy to send him over the edge. Beat him? Lock him in closets? Sexual abuse?
Any ideas??

[LindaNJ1216]

If you are going to peg him as the killer, I'd like to know what they did to this boy to send him over the edge. Beat him? Lock him in closets? Sexual abuse?
Any ideas??

I'm not going to pretend to know what precipitated this. All I know is there was zero evidence of physical or sexual abuse.

I know it isn't a popular opinion, but sometimes kids are just wired wrong. Dr. Hare says true psychopaths are born, not made.

I'm not certain if I agree with Hare 100%. But it would explain why so many children are resilient and the few that just aren't....and some just are budding psychopaths.

Perhaps this child suffered some sort of brain injury? Lots of promising work being done on frontal lobe damage in this area.

[wolfi_2]

I'm not going to pretend to know what precipitated this. All I know is there was zero evidence of physical or sexual abuse.

I know it isn't a popular opinion, but sometimes kids are just wired wrong. Dr. Hare says true psychopaths are born, not made.

I'm not certain if I agree with Hare 100%. But it would explain why so many children are resilient and the few that just aren't....and some just are budding psychopaths.

Perhaps this child suffered some sort of brain injury? Lots of promising work being done on frontal lobe damage in this area.

what about mental abuse? the two pictures I know about, the boy didn´t look very happy.

[LindaNJ1216]

what about mental abuse? the two pictures I know about, the boy didn´t look very happy.

You can't use a photograph, a snap shot in time, to prove anything, so the child wasn't smiling the very second the picture was taken.

IMo it doesn't appear like this child was abused in any way by all reports of those that know him and knew his dad.

[Pag Boi]

I'm not going to pretend to know what precipitated this. All I know is there was zero evidence of physical or sexual abuse.




All I know is that to date, there is zero evidence that this child commited a doubled homicide. Yet you believe(d), from day one, that he is a cold blooded killer based on a snippet of a videotape and nonexistent FE that LE assured the public they had.


A convicted, two timing drug dealer is dead in a neighborhood known to LE for drugs. 20 hours later they have solved the crime. No more investigation needed. Great LE work! :rolleyes:

[wolfi_2]

You can't use a photograph, a snap shot in time, to prove anything, so the child wasn't smiling the very second the picture was taken.

IMo it doesn't appear like this child was abused in any way by all reports of those that know him and knew his dad.

about the pic´s, that´s right, but to uncover mental abuse it´s need some more investigation through a therapist, as that, the people say who think they know the family and the boy.
I personally don´t think there was any disorder in the boys brain, that would show up sometimes before, So if he do it, I still believe that there must something terrible wrong in that house.

[Crispy]

I hate the little trickles of info the media gives. I want to see the report so I know where it was found, how much was found. (I also want my laptop back:cursing:)

I don't want much do I?

[wolfi_2]

I hate the little trickles of info the media gives. I want to see the report so I know where it was found, how much was found. (I also want my laptop back:cursing:)

I don't want much do I?

-still to much:smile:

[bkwits]

The child said he touched his father and sat by him. Wouldn't he have GSR from that contact?

[LindaNJ1216]

All I know is that to date, there is zero evidence that this child commited a doubled homicide. Yet you believe(d), from day one, that he is a cold blooded killer based on a snippet of a videotape and nonexistent FE that LE assured the public they had.


A convicted, two timing drug dealer is dead in a neighborhood known to LE for drugs. 20 hours later they have solved the crime. No more investigation needed. Great LE work! :rolleyes:

You're absolutely correct. From day one I believed he was guilty. I watched the entire videotape more than once. I listened closely and watched the boy. I saw & heard enough to convince me. Too many things to get into right now as I have dinner to make.

The FE will all be back soon enough ( the GSR is) , then you can beat the abuse excuse to death if you like. Just remember there is ZERO evidence of abuse.

[Crispy]

-still to much:smile:

You're right. LOL I'm off to sulk

[Pag Boi]

The FE will all be back soon enough ( the GSR is) , then you can beat the abuse excuse to death if you like. Just remember there is ZERO evidence of abuse.



When you get back from your din-din

1) Find any post where I ever brought up abuse as an excuse. TIA.

2) Let us know if your kid fed his meal to the dog again.


As for what you know about the GSR, the same as us. The kid was near a DISCHARGED FIREARM. :read:

[wolfi_2]

:angry:Gunshot residue found on accused boy's clothing
January 5th, 2009 @ 10:37am
by Associated Press
FLAGSTAFF, Ariz. -- Gunshot residue was found on the clothing of an Arizona boy charged in the deaths of his father and another man, but a report on the examination doesn't specifically identify the boy as the shooter.
The report released by prosecutors Monday says the boy might have come into contact with a discharged firearm or was in close proximity to a firearm.

Lead, barium and antimony, known to be associated with primer gunshot residue, were found on a pair of pants and a long-sleeved shirt belonging to the boy.

Police have said the boy used a .22-caliber rifle to shoot his father, 29-year-old Vincent Romero, and 39-year-old Timothy Romans in St. Johns on Nov. 5.


http://ktar.com/?nid=6&sid=1019177


that doesn´t say anything again, that tells me only that there was reside on his clothes, what I want to know how old are the reside on his clothes ? if they only say there is something , that´s not enough. For me it´s the same like the to the public released video, to build a public opinion against the boy, now, like someone here:wink:,a lot of people will say Hey, I know it all the time, he was it (and there is still the gag order) that makes me angry :angry:

[suzanne]

If you are going to peg him as the killer, I'd like to know what they did to this boy to send him over the edge. Beat him? Lock him in closets? Sexual abuse?
Any ideas??

I have always said.What provoked this kid to do this if he did.What led up to this.How was little boy really raised and what was really going on in this house.Children learn what they live.We all really do not know what happened here yet.I think there is a whole lot more to this story.A whole lot more.

[Pag Boi]

that doesn´t say anything again, that tells me only that there was reside on his clothes, what I want to know how old are the reside on his clothes ? if they only say there is something , that´s not enough. For me it´s the same like to the public released video to build a public opinion against the boy, now, like someone here:wink:, a lot of people will say Hey, I know it all the time, he was it (and there is still the gag order)

Emphasis by me. That is exactly the way this looks to me. Great post!

[suzanne]

I hate the little trickles of info the media gives. I want to see the report so I know where it was found, how much was found. (I also want my laptop back:cursing:)

I don't want much do I?

I want to know too.
Quote they say this." MIGHT HAVE COME INTO CONTACT "It's not FACT he did.Unless they can prove this with out a reasonable doubt.(Did I say that right LOL)It will mean nothing.

The boy might have come into contact with a discharged firearm or was in close proximity to a firearm.

[wolfi_2]

now I'm very interested what the boy´s attorney say tomorrow about this, the state attorney is working very unfair, to build up a public opinion against the boy is disgusting me very much, what is the gag order for ?

[PensiveOne]

Gunshot residue found on accused boy's clothing
January 5th, 2009 @ 10:37am
by Associated Press
FLAGSTAFF, Ariz. -- Gunshot residue was found on the clothing of an Arizona boy charged in the deaths of his father and another man, but a report on the examination doesn't specifically identify the boy as the shooter.
The report released by prosecutors Monday says the boy might have come into contact with a discharged firearm or was in close proximity to a firearm.

Lead, barium and antimony, known to be associated with primer gunshot residue, were found on a pair of pants and a long-sleeved shirt belonging to the boy.

Police have said the boy used a .22-caliber rifle to shoot his father, 29-year-old Vincent Romero, and 39-year-old Timothy Romans in St. Johns on Nov. 5.


http://ktar.com/?nid=6&sid=1019177

That is upsetting:( I wonder how often he shot that gun and how often his clothes got washed. I just so want to stay on that fence:(

[GentleBreeze]

Keep grasping at straws.

It's no different than expert reports stating a decomposing body may have been in Casey Anthony's car.

Common sense apparently isn't all that common eh?

I noticed in the article that part wasn't in quotes. So I take that with a grain of salt. The media puts their own interpretations on what they print.

Just like one media outlet said there were no close range shots to the victims, while another one said three out of four shots concerning VR weren't close range and five out of six shots to Romans weren't close range shots. And the major difference between AzFamily and ABC ....the ABC article actually quoted what the ME had stated on the autopsy report while the other one did not.

I had this discussion before on another site last week. I said that there was a high probability that gunshot residue would be found on his lower pants leg and on the sleeve of his shirt. IMO, he got the GSR on his pants leg when he did the very close up shots to each victim. When one readies themselves to shoot, they put one leg out further to give them control and balance. It brought his leg very close to each victim.

I also now believe the blood found on his pants will be medium to high velocity blood spatter. They still have his shoes to test and give the results to the defense. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they find GSR and a fine blood mist or brain matter on the top of his tennies.

imo

[LindaNJ1216]

When you get back from your din-din

1) Find any post where I ever brought up abuse as an excuse. TIA.

2) Let us know if your kid fed his meal to the dog again.


As for what you know about the GSR, the same as us. The kid was near a DISCHARGED FIREARM. :read:

1) My apologies....I meant "you" figuratively. There are plenty here that are going to. I guarantee it.

2) :lol::lol: No, he didn't. He's a very bright kid and learns quickly.

and it was rotting pizza in Casey Anthony's trunk.

[suzanne]

They said he MIGHT HAVE COME INTO CONTACT.That is not proving he shot this gun.Unless they can prove he shot this gun.It will mean nothing.

[LindaNJ1216]

edited

I also now believe the blood found on his pants will be medium to high velocity blood spatter. They still have his shoes to test and give the results to the defense. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they find GSR and a fine blood mist or brain matter on the top of his tennies.

imo

shivers.....geeesh your so good at being descriptive! I totally agree with you.

Don'tcha know he will have gotten all that forensic evidence by standing next to the "real killer" :rolleyes:

[LindaNJ1216]

They said he MIGHT HAVE COME INTO CONTACT.That is not proving he shot this gun.Unless they can prove he shot this gun.It will mean nothing.

Relax....calm down.

The GSR alone won't prove he was the shooter, it's just another piece of the puzzle. You'll have much tougher evidence to explain away soon enough.:wink:

[wolfi_2]

They said he MIGHT HAVE COME INTO CONTACT.That is not proving he shot this gun.Unless they can prove he shot this gun.It will mean nothing.


that´s absolutely right and again, I think it´s to build up a public opinion against the boy, even the gag order still exist, so why did he release it to the public?

[muska]

Two more court filings....Brewer is asking again for a counselor for the boy.

[LindaNJ1216]

The child said he touched his father and sat by him. Wouldn't he have GSR from that contact?

No.

He said he poked him with his foot.

[suzanne]

Relax....calm down.

The GSR alone won't prove he was the shooter, it's just another piece of the puzzle. You'll have much tougher evidence to explain away soon enough.:wink:

LOL.You relax and calm down.:rolleyes:Be careful how you talk to people.Were these the prosecution words Might have?The prosecution is going to have to do a whole lot better than that or it will mean nothing in court.The prosecution has a very crappy case against this boy because of the incompetency of the police investigation and No miranda rights to this little boy.Most of this will probably be thrown out of court.My guess he will walk because he cannot aide in his defense.He does need rehabiltation though and I do pray they give it to him.

[GentleBreeze]

shivers.....geeesh your so good at being descriptive! I totally agree with you.

Don'tcha know he will have gotten all that forensic evidence by standing next to the "real killer" :rolleyes:


Why of course. That mysterious, unknown killer, that no one saw. :rolleyes: :smile:

[suzanne]

I just read the article (thanks to the person who was kind enough to update me). I am very saddened with the findings.

I would remind everyone that we are still talking about an 8 year old boy and we still do not know the circumstances behind this incident, or if he did the shootings- if there were circumstances that led him to snap.

There is enough hatred in this world without people vilifying a little boy because it makes them all too happy to see others suffering. Kinda takes away from your own suffering, and I get that, but still it is not right. No matter how you slice it, IF he is guilty of this crime, something had to drive him to it. And I, for one, refuse to condemn him without all the facts.

My prayers are continually with this little boy and again, thank you very much to the special person who updates me regularly.

^j^'s for C.R.


Very well said.Thankyou.I agree with you.

[tif]

And rubbed it all over his sleeves and the front of his pants? Okay:rolleyes:

Pegging this child as a murderer doesn't bring me any joy. I truly wish I had been wrong.

Did I read a different article? Where did the article say GSR was "all over his sleeves and the front of his pants?"

I think PensiveOne brought up a good point. I doubt his boy always wore clean clothes to school. Does anyone know if GSR deteriorates on clothes or just stays there if they are laying in a pile on the floor?

I had asked Hawk why he put so much stock in the location of the casings when they could have been easily kicked around by the killer(s), the boy, or careless police officers, but he was banned before he could answer. Do casing locations have any validity at all?

[LindaNJ1216]

Why of course. That mysterious, unknown killer, that no one saw. :rolleyes: :smile:

But the boy saw him speed off in the white car!

I'm sure the GSR came from that HUGE cloud of smoke the boy claims he saw.

[tif]

Why of course. That mysterious, unknown killer, that no one saw. :rolleyes: :smile:

No one saw the boy do it either. Is that mysterious as well?

[suzanne]

Yes,the white car the police were incompetent and didn't look for.

[suzanne]

I want to know what provoked this little boy to do this if he did and what led up to this.I want to know this whole story.

[LindaNJ1216]

Yes,the white car the police were incompetent and didn't look for.


So now the child wore dirty clothes to school that he had previously been out shooting in?

or

He was standing next to the real killer?

which is it?

[suzanne]

Two more court filings....Brewer is asking again for a counselor for the boy.

This will also get the little boy off that they didn't do this for him and they really should have.

[suzanne]

So now the child wore dirty clothes to school that he had previously been out shooting in?

or

He was standing next to the real killer?

which is it?

It doen't matter.They are not going to be able to do anything with this in court.

[LindaNJ1216]

I want to know what provoked this little boy to do this if he did and what led up to this.I want to know this whole story.

Perhaps he is just biologically wired wrong?

HYPOTHETICALLY ...If the child was diagnosed with something like schizophrenia would that satisfy you?

Psychopathy is said by many experts to have a biological basis.

If this boy was truly a budding psychopath, that too should be sufficient to answer the nagging question, "why" He would simply be defective.

[LindaNJ1216]

It doen't matter.They are not going to be able to do anything with this in court.

Finding the TRUTH doesn't matter to you?

[suzanne]

Perhaps he is just biologically wired wrong?

HYPOTHETICALLY ...If the child was diagnosed with something like schizophrenia would that satisfy you?

Psychopathy is said by many experts to have a biological basis.

If this boy was truly a budding psychopath, that too should be sufficient to answer the nagging question, "why" He would simply be defective.

And this will also get him off.I do not think he is a budding psychopath.I strongly think and believe something provoked this little boy and led up to this.I want to hear this whole story.I really feel this little boy needs rehabiltatve therapy and that's how this should be handled.

[GentleBreeze]

No one saw the boy do it either. Is that mysterious as well?

Not really. It has begun now. More and more results will start to come in.

imo

[suzanne]

Finding the TRUTH doesn't matter to you?
Yes,I want to find the truth of what happened and the whole story about everything.I feel he needs rehabilitative therapy and find the root of what caused this.What led up to this.

[Pag Boi]

Of course we don't know how that GSR got there. Those bright LEO's put all the clothes in one bag.

[Pag Boi]

Finding the TRUTH doesn't matter to you?

Why do we need to find it? You keep trying to tell us what the truth isn't



JMOO

[LindaNJ1216]

And this will also get him off.I do not think he is a budding psychopath.I strongly think and believe something provoked this little boy and led up to this.I want to hear this whole story.I really feel this little boy needs rehabilitative therapy and that's how this should be handled.

No debating from me. The boy needs intensive daily therapy in some secure facility for a long long time. Not some outpatient crap with no court supervision while in his mother's custody.

I happen to believe he is a budding psychopath, and I wish him all the best when it comes to being rehabilitated for society's sake. I just don't believe psychopaths can be cured.

[Justice_Dawg]

And rubbed it all over his sleeves and the front of his pants? Okay:rolleyes:

Pegging this child as a murderer doesn't bring me any joy. I truly wish I had been wrong.

The way the article states it is telling me that very few particles were found. If he was the shooter, the report would have let us know.
He could have gotten some on him by being on the steps.
You have no clue what happened in that house.

IMO the article seem to be backstepping that the boy was the shooter.

[LindaNJ1216]

Why do we need to find it? You keep trying to tell us what the truth isn't



JMOO


and you keep making excuses for what's staring you right in the face.

JMOO

[Justice_Dawg]

Why do we need to find it? You keep trying to tell us what the truth isn't



JMOO

I love your posts. You crack me up. :thumbsup:

[Justice_Dawg]

Of course we don't know how that GSR got there. Those bright LEO's put all the clothes in one bag.
You pegged it!
:lol::lol::lol:

[suzanne]

No debating from me. The boy needs intensive daily therapy in some secure facility for a long long time. Not some outpatient crap with no court supervision while in his mother's custody.

I happen to believe he is a budding psychopath, and I wish him all the best when it comes to being rehabilitated for society's sake. I just don't believe psychopaths can be cured.

I don't think he is a psychopath.I strongly believe this was provoked and something led up to this.I strongly want to know how this boy was raised and what was really going on in this house.Children learn what they live.

[LindaNJ1216]

You pegged it!
:lol::lol::lol:

So did he walk through a cloud of smoke or wear dirty clothes to school or is he still covering for the real murder and he was standing next to the shooter?


spin that wheel and pick one!

[Pag Boi]

I noticed in the article that part wasn't in quotes. So I take that with a grain of salt. The media puts their own interpretations on what they print.

Just like one media outlet said there were no close range shots to the victims, while another one said three out of four shots concerning VR weren't close range and five out of six shots to Romans weren't close range shots. And the major difference between AzFamily and ABC ....the ABC article actually quoted what the ME had stated on the autopsy report while the other one did not.

I had this discussion before on another site last week. I said that there was a high probability that gunshot residue would be found on his lower pants leg and on the sleeve of his shirt. IMO, he got the GSR on his pants leg when he did the very close up shots to each victim. When one readies themselves to shoot, they put one leg out further to give them control and balance. It brought his leg very close to each victim.

I also now believe the blood found on his pants will be medium to high velocity blood spatter. They still have his shoes to test and give the results to the defense. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they find GSR and a fine blood mist or brain matter on the top of his tennies.

imo

Do you really want all the things you have said about this case that turned out to be wrong? Starting with your first one that the child shot the father while he slept and then laid in wait for the renter to come home :rolleyes:

There is nothing yet that tells us where the GSR was on his pants and shirt. The cops barely noticed that high velocity splatter? Shame. Wonder what happened to the brain matter? Where do you think it will be found?

Is it possible for the GSR to get on his lower pant legs but not on his shoes? Didn't the shooter step over the father and take one shot from the top of the stairs?

[Justice_Dawg]

I don't think he is a psychopath.I strongly believe this was provoked and something led up to this.I strongly want to know how this boy was raised and what was really going on in this house.Children learn what they live.

His mother should have gotten custody in the first place.

MOO

[LindaNJ1216]

I don't think he is a psychopath.I strongly believe this was provoked and something led up to this.I strongly want to know how this boy was raised and what was really going on in this house.Children learn what they live.

Most children do learn what they live. But........not all of them. Violent psychopaths are extremely rare, not quite as rare as eight year old murderers...but very rare.

[Justice_Dawg]

So did he walk through a cloud of smoke or wear dirty clothes to school or is he still covering for the real murder and he was standing next to the shooter?


spin that wheel and pick one!

In that scummy dirty filthy house, who knows. :w00t:

[LindaNJ1216]

His mother should have gotten custody in the first place.

MOO

and you base this on?

[Justice_Dawg]

and you base this on?

She is normal.
And don't say one word about her... I am not kidding!

[LindaNJ1216]

In that scummy dirty filthy house, who knows. :w00t:

It didn't look dirty to me. It looked clean with clothes and stuff strewn everywhere. If you have a link to filth or dirt please link me as I must have missed it.

[LindaNJ1216]

She is normal.
And don't say one word about her... I am not kidding!


I don't know her. How could *I* say anything?

Did you exchange a few e-mails or something and now you "know" her?

[suzanne]

The way the article states it is telling me that very few particles were found. If he was the shooter, the report would have let us know.
He could have gotten some on him by being on the steps.
You have no clue what happened in that house.

IMO the article seem to be backstepping that the boy was the shooter.

And if I remember the incompetent police officer saying in the interview confession with the little boy.She says to the little boy what would you say if we told you there would be alot on your clothes.She says again.I mean ALOT.she says this a few times.She did lie to this little boy about alot of other things in this confession.Is this true.Wouldn't there be ALOT on his clothes or was she lying about that too.Gun residue was only on his pants and arms?Wouldn't there be alot more?

[Justice_Dawg]

It didn't look dirty to me. It looked clean with clothes and stuff strewn everywhere. If you have a link to filth or dirt please link me as I must have missed it.

My bad, some people do live like that and think it is ok. Sorry if I hurt your feelings.

[Pag Boi]

and you keep making excuses for what's staring you right in the face.

JMOO

I am not making excuses for anything. I am pointing out very basic LE errors that a cop of 29 years and the detective of one day made. There are so many things wrong with this investigation. It is the truth. You should try it sometime.

You boast how you know plenty of unsavory people. Maybe you should consort with some that have a job and know how to do it.

You won't find one honest, competent LE officer that would stop an investigation dead in its tracks with nothing but a coerced confession of an 8yo.

All JMOO

[bkwits]

So now the child wore dirty clothes to school that he had previously been out shooting in?

or

He was standing next to the real killer?

which is it?


Your sarcasm is uncalled for, IMO. :mad:

[LindaNJ1216]

My bad, some people do live like that and think it is ok. Sorry if I hurt your feelings.

No sweety, you didn't hurt my feelings....were you trying to?

I thought you were deliberately lying and twisting the facts.

[PensiveOne]

I think some of these posts are getting out of line. I find no pleasure in the positive results of the gunshot residue tests. I suppose that some people do. That speaks volumes. I would rather get back on topic and cease the personal attacks. None of us has anything personally to gain or lose in this case. I would rather not see this boy guilty, but if it turns out that he is what will happen to him? What does this say about us as a society?

[LindaNJ1216]

Your sarcasm is uncalled for, IMO. :mad:


Is it just my sarcasm you have a problem with? But you're fine with everyone else's?

[Justice_Dawg]

And if I remember the incompetent police officer saying in the interview confession with the little boy.She says to the little boy what would you say if we told you there would be alot on your clothes.She says again.I mean ALOT.she says this a few times.She did lie to this little boy about alot of other things in this confession.Is this true.Wouldn't there be ALOT on his clothes or was she lying about that too.Gun residue was only on his pants and arms?Wouldn't there be alot more?

There wouldn't be a lot if he just handled the gun as stated in the report.

[Pag Boi]

Not really. It has begun now. More and more results will start to come in.

imo

Ya think?

From reading posts and LE comments, I thought it began on 11/5 and LE ended it on 11/7.

[suzanne]

and you base this on?

Drinking and partying and getting in fights at bars and at work and having your car shot at ect...Need I say more.Yes,the mother should have gotten custody of him.Yes,children learn what they live.

[LindaNJ1216]

There wouldn't be a lot if he just handled the gun as stated in the report.

you read the report?

[bkwits]

Is it just my sarcasm you have a problem with? But you're fine with everyone else's?

I don't see the same level at all in other posts. IMO:mad:

[Pag Boi]

No sweety, you didn't hurt my feelings....were you trying to?

I thought you were deliberately lying and twisting the facts.

Staring at your face again?

"rubbed it all over his sleeves and front of his pants."

AS IF THAT IS STATED ANYWHERE.

[LindaNJ1216]

Staring at your face again?

"rubbed it all over his sleeves and front of his pants."

AS IF THAT IS STATED ANYWHERE.

If you're going to quote someone, you should at least do it accurately.:rolleyes:

[LindaNJ1216]

I don't see the same level at all in other posts. IMO:mad:


Maybe :tonguewag:I'm just better at it?

[Justice_Dawg]

The report recommended that the ammunition and weapon be submitted for further testing. Diaczuk said that could determine whether the bullets that hit the men came out of the gun taken into evidence.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/texassouthwest/stories/0106texdadkilled.2aa3cbd.html

[Dallasnc]

Residue is easily transfered. Link below is just one of the ones I found. It's a summary of the FBI Laboratory's Gunshot Residue Symposium.

http://www.fbi.gov/hq/lab/fsc/backissu/july2006/research/2006_07_research01.htm



Testing Clothing taken from article.
Discussions were also held regarding testing clothing for the presence of gunshot residues. Attendees who have performed research or casework in this area provided details for reference. The sampling technique and materials were described as analogous to hand sampling in an article that originally appeared in the IAMA Newsletter (International Association for Microanalysis) (Martinez 2000).

Guidelines for sample submission and acceptance were offered by Michael McVicar (McVicar 2005). These parameters included collecting the sample at the laboratory by trained personnel who have not discharged or been in the vicinity of a discharged weapon within the past 24 hours prior to sample collection. If personnel seizing the clothing have discharged a weapon, at a minimum, they should thoroughly wash their hands, change their clothes, and don gloves prior to evidence collection. With respect to packaging the clothing, paper (bags or wrapping), rather than plastic, is recommended. Additionally, larger garments should be folded with brown paper between the folds in order to prevent the transfer of GSR from one area to another. If the latter step is not taken, it is recommended that the analyst photograph the clothing in its packaging as received to demonstrate why a conclusion cannot be reached as to where the particles originated on the garment. A. J. Schwoeble of the RJ Lee Group in Pennsylvania suggested the use of white “butcher-type” waxed paper as an alternative to the traditional brown kraft paper in order to prevent the introduction of fibers from the paper onto the garment (Schwoeble 2005).

With respect to case acceptance of clothing items, Michael McVicar advised that the Centre of Forensic Sciences also instructs its contributors to ensure that the garment being submitted can reasonably be expected to have had direct contact with or proximity to a discharged firearm. Within this context, a shirt worn inside another layer would not be as probative for sampling purposes as the outer garment. Other items such as shoes would similarly be considered too far removed from the discharge to have received appreciable amounts of residue. Finally, items with a surface relatively free of loose debris or easily shed fibers are preferable.

Carol Crowe provided a study performed by the Colorado Bureau of
Investigation in which clothing was tested for GSR residues subsequent to discharging a weapon and laundering the worn garments in a conventional washing machine with warm water and detergent (Chavez et al. 2001). A variety of garments and fabrics were tested both postfiring and postlaundering. Results demonstrated the persistence of three-component GSR particles and/or two-component (supporting) particles on some of the garments even after washing. However, as the authors stated in their conclusions, the presence of GSR on clothing cannot provide confirmation of a recent association with a discharged firearm in the same manner that such findings on a living person’s skin (i.e., hands or face) might suggest. In other words, time of GSR deposition on clothing cannot be assessed in the same context as when it is confirmed on specimens taken directly from skin surfaces.

[PensiveOne]

The report recommended that the ammunition and weapon be submitted for further testing. Diaczuk said that could determine whether the bullets that hit the men came out of the gun taken into evidence.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/texassouthwest/stories/0106texdadkilled.2aa3cbd.html

Good article. Thanks Justice.

[Pag Boi]

If you're going to quote someone, you should at least do it accurately.:rolleyes:

Practice what you preach?

[suzanne]

Was there enough traces of gunpowder to prove he actually shot a gun TEN times?

[Justice_Dawg]

Good article. Thanks Justice.

No problem.

IMO- CR was not the shooter.

I have been saying he is covering for someone, and I have even said who I think that person is.

[Justice_Dawg]

Was there enough traces of gunpowder to prove he actually shot a gun TEN times?

No, but I don't have a link, so IMO.

LOL

[bkwits]

Maybe :tonguewag:I'm just better at it?


You probably are since you do practice more than most. :sad:

[Pag Boi]

No problem.

IMO- CR was not the shooter.

I have been saying he is covering for someone, and I have even said who I think that person is.


ITA that CR was not the shooter.

I'd love to know what you are really thinking :eek:

[suzanne]

No problem.

IMO- CR was not the shooter.

I have been saying he is covering for someone, and I have even said who I think that person is.

I thought some one shot them first.Is it proven yet all the bullets were from the same gun?Did the ME say that?Can I ask who you said?I think I missed that.I'm sorry.

[PensiveOne]

Residue is easily transfered. Link below is just one of the ones I found. It's a summary of the FBI Laboratory's Gunshot Residue Symposium.

http://www.fbi.gov/hq/lab/fsc/backissu/july2006/research/2006_07_research01.htm



Testing Clothing taken from article.
Discussions were also held regarding testing clothing for the presence of gunshot residues. Attendees who have performed research or casework in this area provided details for reference. The sampling technique and materials were described as analogous to hand sampling in an article that originally appeared in the IAMA Newsletter (International Association for Microanalysis) (Martinez 2000).

Guidelines for sample submission and acceptance were offered by Michael McVicar (McVicar 2005). These parameters included collecting the sample at the laboratory by trained personnel who have not discharged or been in the vicinity of a discharged weapon within the past 24 hours prior to sample collection. If personnel seizing the clothing have discharged a weapon, at a minimum, they should thoroughly wash their hands, change their clothes, and don gloves prior to evidence collection. With respect to packaging the clothing, paper (bags or wrapping), rather than plastic, is recommended. Additionally, larger garments should be folded with brown paper between the folds in order to prevent the transfer of GSR from one area to another. If the latter step is not taken, it is recommended that the analyst photograph the clothing in its packaging as received to demonstrate why a conclusion cannot be reached as to where the particles originated on the garment. A. J. Schwoeble of the RJ Lee Group in Pennsylvania suggested the use of white “butcher-type” waxed paper as an alternative to the traditional brown kraft paper in order to prevent the introduction of fibers from the paper onto the garment (Schwoeble 2005).

With respect to case acceptance of clothing items, Michael McVicar advised that the Centre of Forensic Sciences also instructs its contributors to ensure that the garment being submitted can reasonably be expected to have had direct contact with or proximity to a discharged firearm. Within this context, a shirt worn inside another layer would not be as probative for sampling purposes as the outer garment. Other items such as shoes would similarly be considered too far removed from the discharge to have received appreciable amounts of residue. Finally, items with a surface relatively free of loose debris or easily shed fibers are preferable.

Carol Crowe provided a study performed by the Colorado Bureau of
Investigation in which clothing was tested for GSR residues subsequent to discharging a weapon and laundering the worn garments in a conventional washing machine with warm water and detergent (Chavez et al. 2001). A variety of garments and fabrics were tested both postfiring and postlaundering. Results demonstrated the persistence of three-component GSR particles and/or two-component (supporting) particles on some of the garments even after washing. However, as the authors stated in their conclusions, the presence of GSR on clothing cannot provide confirmation of a recent association with a discharged firearm in the same manner that such findings on a living person’s skin (i.e., hands or face) might suggest. In other words, time of GSR deposition on clothing cannot be assessed in the same context as when it is confirmed on specimens taken directly from skin surfaces.

Dallas, thanks for this! So even after washing they can sometimes find GSR. I had heard that the transfer or even the removal of GSR was easy. Again, thank you.

[suzanne]

May I please ask do they know for sure how much was on his pants and shirt and where it was?do you know where it was and how much was found on his pants and shirt?

[Dallasnc]

Dallas, thanks for this! So even after washing they can sometimes find GSR. I had heard that the transfer or even the removal of GSR was easy. Again, thank you.

The article goes into how residue can be transferred from contact with officers on the scene, in labs, and other examples. I quickly looked at other articles with same conclusions.

IMOO...somke and mirrows!

[muska]

The way the article states it is telling me that very few particles were found. If he was the shooter, the report would have let us know.
He could have gotten some on him by being on the steps.
You have no clue what happened in that house.

IMO the article seem to be backstepping that the boy was the shooter.

The reported stories have been inaccurate more often than not. We'll just have to wait and see.

Good Luck, tomorrow Justice Dawg!

[suzanne]

Well,no matter what happened.I am still going to be there for this little boy and I will be praying for him and praying he gets the help he needs.I don't feel juvie is the answer.It's just real sad all around.

[suzanne]

No, but I don't have a link, so IMO.

LOL

Ok,Thankyou.

[muska]

Ya think?

From reading posts and LE comments, I thought it began on 11/5 and LE ended it on 11/7.

I think it ended on 11/6.

[bkwits]

He would not be the first neglected kid that pulled dirty clothes out of the hamper and wore them to school. What is this, too far fetched for you to grasp?

As the article DallasNC posted, there are many ways that GSR can get on clothing. This seems like a transparent attempt by the Pros. to make themselves look competent. IMO

I remember in the transcript, the LEO said the pants were very dirty.

[bkwits]

Well,no matter what happened.I am still going to be there for this little boy and I will be praying for him and praying he gets the help he needs.I don't feel juvie is the answer.It's just real sad all around.


Me too. :closedeyes:

[muska]

The report recommended that the ammunition and weapon be submitted for further testing. Diaczuk said that could determine whether the bullets that hit the men came out of the gun taken into evidence.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/texassouthwest/stories/0106texdadkilled.2aa3cbd.html

Thanks! Very helpful!

[PensiveOne]

Another article about GSR.

http://www.nacdl.org/public.nsf/0/2cf37586a1b12b748525738e005fafe5?OpenDocument&Click=

[JD1974]

now I'm very interested what the boy´s attorney say tomorrow about this, the state attorney is working very unfair, to build up a public opinion against the boy is disgusting me very much, what is the gag order for ?


I am curious about this too, why is there a gag order when the prosecution can leak anything that makes this boy look bad...unfreaking real. If I was the defense I would ask the judge to lift the gag order and start arguing some o this stuff, I wouldn't give any strategy info but say just enough to get rid of the sting of what the pros is putting out there.

[JD1974]

I want to know too.
Quote they say this." MIGHT HAVE COME INTO CONTACT "It's not FACT he did.Unless they can prove this with out a reasonable doubt.(Did I say that right LOL)It will mean nothing.

The boy might have come into contact with a discharged firearm or was in close proximity to a firearm.

I wonder if some posters on this board have heard of transfer. Say the kid touched his dad, he admitted he did, gets GSR on his hands..why couldn't he have touched his pants or sleeves? You are 8 years old, ust seen your father laying on the floor dead, along with Tim, who may have even been friends with the kid for all we know ( remember "Why would I shoot TIm?") he touches his dad to see if he is alive, may have even touched Tim and the gun also. Not too long after that he is getting questioned by the cops, I can see a kid sitting there with his hands on his knees, maybe pulling up his sleeves while this is going on, or just something natural. The better question is, if he has all of this GSR all over him why does he only have a spot of blood on his pants?

[FurthurBB]

My bad, some people do live like that and think it is ok. Sorry if I hurt your feelings.


I agree with you Justice, it was really bad. IMO

[GentleBreeze]

Do you really want all the things you have said about this case that turned out to be wrong? Starting with your first one that the child shot the father while he slept and then laid in wait for the renter to come home :rolleyes:

There is nothing yet that tells us where the GSR was on his pants and shirt. The cops barely noticed that high velocity splatter? Shame. Wonder what happened to the brain matter? Where do you think it will be found?

Is it possible for the GSR to get on his lower pant legs but not on his shoes? Didn't the shooter step over the father and take one shot from the top of the stairs?

Shot his father as he slept? What in the heck are you talking about?:confused: He murdered his father when his dad came in from work that afternoon, fully dressed in his construction gear, including his work goggles, as he was climbing the stairs in his home. Tim Romans was outside on the phone talking to his wife from 4:52 until two and a half minutes later when he hung up telling his wife that the boy was calling him to come inside that something bad had happened to his dad.

Doesn't matter. They did notice it and more can be seen with forensic testing that wasn't able to be seen with the naked eye.

I think it will be found on his shoes most likely. The shoe results aren't back yet or the DA hasn't released it.

But all of it will start rolling in now all the way to the end of January imo.

[JD1974]

You're absolutely correct. From day one I believed he was guilty. I watched the entire videotape more than once. I listened closely and watched the boy. I saw & heard enough to convince me. Too many things to get into right now as I have dinner to make.

The FE will all be back soon enough ( the GSR is) , then you can beat the abuse excuse to death if you like. Just remember there is ZERO evidence of abuse.


I have to disagree with you. No offense but you state your son doesn't lie, yet you had to threaten to smell your dog's breath to get him to admit he fed his food to him. You also say there is no way your son would ever do anything like this ( I think we can all pretty much agree we would never believe our kids would either) yet you think this boy was treated fairly by police to get a confession, I have asked you over and over that if this was your son on the hot seat would you agree he had been treated fairly by police? Or after they got a confession out of him by saying that you had told them (the police) that you had seen him commit the crime would you be shouting from the every rooftop that he had been treated unfairly? Try putting yourself in that position and then see if you still feel the same way about the kids confession...


BTW I am in no way trying to say anything bad about your son, I am just asking you a hypothetical and how you would feel if this was happening to him and your family.

[GentleBreeze]

I wonder if some posters on this board have heard of transfer. Say the kid touched his dad, he admitted he did, gets GSR on his hands..why couldn't he have touched his pants or sleeves? You are 8 years old, ust seen your father laying on the floor dead, along with Tim, who may have even been friends with the kid for all we know ( remember "Why would I shoot TIm?") he touches his dad to see if he is alive, may have even touched Tim and the gun also. Not too long after that he is getting questioned by the cops, I can see a kid sitting there with his hands on his knees, maybe pulling up his sleeves while this is going on, or just something natural. The better question is, if he has all of this GSR all over him why does he only have a spot of blood on his pants?

He was very specific about that. Even showed the officers what he did. He nudge his father with the toe of his shoe.

And it is not known who the blood belonged to........it very well could have belonged to Tim Romans.

imo

[JD1974]

Sorry to go O/T but did you guys catch this??? OMG

http://ktar.com/?nid=45&sid=1019445

[Details]

The report recommended that the ammunition and weapon be submitted for further testing. Diaczuk said that could determine whether the bullets that hit the men came out of the gun taken into evidence.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/texassouthwest/stories/0106texdadkilled.2aa3cbd.htmlThey didn't start out doing that? What?

Normally, just silly me, I'd expect testing to determine if a weapon was the murder weapon to be the top priority! Or is this just a case where we're waiting still for results?

[Details]

OK, so let's see if I've got this right - they bagged the clothes together - and now say that all of them had gunpowder residue - what a shock! And the statement from the lab doesn't sound like the "massive amounts were found, so the kid obviously shot the gun or was close when it was shot" type of report - it's got very inconclusive wording to it.

Seems to me that it is including the possibility that these are clothes he's shot in before, that either weren't washed, or kept the residue after washing - not only wouldn't he be the first neglected kid to wear clothes out of the hamper, he wouldn't be the first normal kid to wear clothes out of the hamper, or to keep putting dirty clothes away to wear again.


If he did it - he did it - and I'll want to see why. But this sounds to me like a fairly inconclusive report.

[lurkinghere2]

I think some of these posts are getting out of line. I find no pleasure in the positive results of the gunshot residue tests. I suppose that some people do. That speaks volumes. I would rather get back on topic and cease the personal attacks. None of us has anything personally to gain or lose in this case. I would rather not see this boy guilty, but if it turns out that he is what will happen to him? What does this say about us as a society?

Thank you, PensiveOne. This needed to be said. I am usually only lurking, but I needed to log on to thank you for this.

[suzanne]

OK, so let's see if I've got this right - they bagged the clothes together - and now say that all of them had gunpowder residue - what a shock! And the statement from the lab doesn't sound like the "massive amounts were found, so the kid obviously shot the gun or was close when it was shot" type of report - it's got very inconclusive wording to it.

Seems to me that it is including the possibility that these are clothes he's shot in before, that either weren't washed, or kept the residue after washing - not only wouldn't he be the first neglected kid to wear clothes out of the hamper, he wouldn't be the first normal kid to wear clothes out of the hamper, or to keep putting dirty clothes away to wear again.


If he did it - he did it - and I'll want to see why. But this sounds to me like a fairly inconclusive report.

The whole thing was pitiful.They are going to fire the two police officers that did the so called confession tape right?They do not need to be doing any more interviews.

[suzanne]

They need to be firing a lot more LE than just those 2 cops. I get the feeling that Candelaria pushed this case because it was around the time he came up for re-election. H'm. Didn't work for him.
I agree.I do not talk bad about all police work done by police officers in all cases.I personally feel in Caylee Marie Anthony's case.They did a very good job.I do not say that often though about cases.I do know the Orlando area is very rough and bigger.There are many homicides there where as there were not many homicides in this small town.So maybe that's the difference.I do know they did not seem well trained in this little town at all.

[bkwits]

The whole thing was pitiful.They are going to fire the two police officers that did the so called confession tape right?They do not need to be doing any more interviews.


The more aggressive one, Avilla, is running for Sheriff. Can you believe that? The other Neckels had just been promoted to Detective the day before the murders.

[JD1974]

They need to be firing a lot more LE than just those 2 cops. I get the feeling that Candelaria pushed this case because it was around the time he came up for re-election. H'm. Didn't work for him.


They are firing the cops? I thought the one was running for sheriff, with the ironic campaign statement of protecting children or something like that?

[suzanne]

The more aggressive one, Avilla, is running for Sheriff. Can you believe that? The other Neckels had just been promoted to Detective the day before the murders.

Oh no she's not.:mad:

[suzanne]

They are firing the cops? I thought the one was running for sheriff, with the ironic campaign statement of protecting children or something like that?


Oh no she didn't say that that.:mad: