Dec. 30 thru 31

[IAMME]

THIS is freaking scary!!!!! :scared:

http://www.campaignmoney.com/political/527/avila4sheriff.asp

http://avila4sheriff.com/

"With all the public scrutiny that has overcome our Sheriff's Department it is time for a change. I will manage an honest department and staff to bring integrity back to our name."

Is she freaking kidding!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?:ohmy:

[Justice_Dawg]

Was she at the store around 4:20-4:40? I thought there was a report of that. I know the boy had called her at 5:12 p.m. and 5:14 p.m. from the neighbor's cell phone.

That is my key point in this killing.
VR was shot in the head one last time from the TOP of the stairs.
The boy DIDN'T grab his Cell Phone that was plugged in by his bed. He ran to a neighbor. He was NEVER at the TOP OF THE STEPS, and he was in shock. He RAN!

[Justice_Dawg]

The casings at the scene are driving me crazy. If anyone has already addressed this, I apologize for missing it. If so, please let me know where to find it so I can educate myself.

Has anyone noticed that the box of .17 HRM ammo collected in the search warrant and testified about by Sgt. Rodriguez in the in the initial detention hearing DOES NOT correspond to the .22 LR spent casings found at the scene?

Please correct me if I'm wrong - I'm the first to admit that I'm not a gun expert.

Per the crime scene photos, the box of ammo found at the scene contained .17 HMR Hornady cartridges.
http://www.kpho.com/slideshow/18019101/detail.htmlindex.html?currentSlide=13&taf=pho
The .17 HMR casings are "necked in" ("pinched in", or "a smaller diameter") at the top, as well as being significantly longer than the casings (which appear to be .22 LR) found at the scene. IMO, even a novice can see the difference. PLEASE tell me what I’m missing!!

I have photos to show the differnce if anyone is obsessed enough to want ot see them (like me, of course).

If I’m actually not crazy about this, my questions would be:
1) Where did the .22 LR ammo for the Chipmunk/Cricket rifle come from?
2) Why is the .17 HMR Hornady ammo box the only ammo listed in the supplementary search warrant that itemizes the evidence seized from the crime scene?
3) Was Sqt. Rodriguez (and the rest of SJ LE) fudging the evidence by implying that the .17 HMR was used in the crime?


They were not the casings found, no. The .17 are HMR Hornady magnum rimfire are "necked in" The casings at the scene were. 22 rimfire.
http://www.gunblast.com/images/Ruger_77-17/Mvc-022f.jpg The .17 Hornady Magnum Rimfire (left) along with its parent cartridge, the .22 Magnum (right). While comparisons between the two excellent cartridges are inevitable, the .17 HMR was designed to fill a performance niche not met by any rimfire cartridge.

http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger_77-17.htm

http://www.kpho.com/slideshow/news/18019101/detail.html

[Martek]

It's highly unlikely that the cops would have moved them. And if the boy was aware of their importance he would have picked them up and discarded them before going to a neighbors.

Maybe they got nudged or moved inadvertantly or unnoticed by being walked over or kicked, etc. Anything to rule that out?

Martek

[Justice_Dawg]

Maybe they got nudged or moved inadvertantly or unnoticed by being walked over or kicked, etc. Anything to rule that out?

Martek

The coronor said the shooter was shooting from around the right corner. No big deal. IMO

[ChanginWinds]

They were not the casings found, no. The .17 are HMR Hornady magnum rimfire are "necked in" The casings at the scene were. 22 rimfire.
http://www.gunblast.com/images/Ruger_77-17/Mvc-022f.jpg The .17 Hornady Magnum Rimfire (left) along with its parent cartridge, the .22 Magnum (right). While comparisons between the two excellent cartridges are inevitable, the .17 HMR was designed to fill a performance niche not met by any rimfire cartridge.

http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger_77-17.htm

http://www.kpho.com/slideshow/news/18019101/detail.html

So did I miss where the police found live ammo that matches the casings (.22 LRs)? The only photo I've seen was of the box of .17 HMRs, and I only noticed statements referring to one box of ammo found on a side table downstairs. I'm confused... :confused:

The reason I think it's important is because LE should try to find out where the boy got the ammo if there was no sign of matching ammo in the house (right??)

[Justice_Dawg]

So did I miss where the police found live ammo that matches the casings (.22 LRs)? The only photo I've seen was of the box of .17 HMRs, and I only noticed statements referring to one box of ammo found on a side table downstairs. I'm confused... :confused:

The reason I think it's important is because LE should try to find out where the boy got the ammo if there was no sign of matching ammo in the house (right??)

See how different they are?
The casings in the photos are straight. Where did the ammo come from?

[ChanginWinds]

See how different the are?
The casings in the photos are straight. Where did the ammo come from?

Exactly - this is really bugging me. Here are some pictures I found for comparison.

1) casing at the crime scene - 1.5 cms and NOT necked in
http://www.azfamily.com/perl/common/slideshow/sspop.pl?recid=13142&nextimage=0

2) typical .22 LRs - casing length is 1.5 cm
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kleinkaliber_22lr.jpg

2) On the left, a .17 HMR (like the ones in the Hornady box at the scene. On the right, a .22 LR. It's obvious that the .17 HMR's casing is significantly longer than the .22 LR's. Also, the .17 HMR's casing is "necked in" at the top.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:17HMR_and_22LR_B.jpg

So was LE purposely deceitful in implying that they found the ammo that was used?

[Justice_Dawg]

Exactly - this is really bugging me. Here are some pictures I found for comparison.

1) casing at the crime scene - 1.5 cms and NOT necked in
http://www.azfamily.com/perl/common/slideshow/sspop.pl?recid=13142&nextimage=0

2) typical .22 LRs - casing length is 1.5 cm
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kleinkaliber_22lr.jpg

2) On the left, a .17 HMR (like the ones in the Hornady box at the scene. On the right, a .22 LR. It's obvious that the .17 HMR's casing is significantly longer than the .22 LR's. Also, the .17 HMR's casing is "necked in" at the top.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:17HMR_and_22LR_B.jpg

So was LE purposely deceitful in implying that they found the ammo that was used?

Unless someone put .22 ammo in the Hornady box....

LOL, Rodreakez (sp LOL) said he didnt open the box.

Then how did he know they were the ones????

[Justice_Dawg]

Even if they dismiss all charges, I still want to know about the ballistics. :tonguewag:

[ChanginWinds]

Unless someone put .22 ammo in the Hornady box....

LOL, Rodreakez (sp LOL) said he didnt open the box.

Then how did he know they were the ones????

That's a great point too. Maybe for plausible deniability (since I believe the .17s can be used in SOME .22s with the right barrel)? Otherwise, any good investigator would have not only opened the box, but also taken a picture of the ammo inside. IMVHO

[Justice_Dawg]

That's a great point too. Maybe for plausible deniability (since I believe the .17s can be used in SOME .22s with the right barrel)? Otherwise, any good investigator would have not only opened the box, but also taken a picture of the ammo inside. IMVHO
I sure would have opened the box.

[ChanginWinds]

I sure would have opened the box.

ME TOO

Unless I wanted to close the case ASAP by fitting the evidence to a convenient suspect. Keep my chief happy and the reputation of my small town unsullied by rumors of ganglands killings...

[Justice_Dawg]

ME TOO

Unless I wanted to close the case ASAP by fitting the evidence to a convenient suspect. Keep my chief happy and the reputation of my small town unsullied by rumors of ganglands killings...

:lol::lol::lol:

[wolfi_2]

beside this tragic case. through all that I read about this case and all those things that are going wrong, I just remember this one:
- 'Hello, is this the Sheriff's Office?'
- 'Yes. What can I do for you?'
- 'I'm calling to report 'bout my neighbor Virgil Smith....He's hidin' marijuana inside his firewood! Don't quite know how he gets it inside them logs, but he's hidin' it there.'
- 'Thank you very much for the call, sir.'
The next day, the Sheriff's Deputies descend on Virgil's house. They search
the shed where the firewood is kept.
Using axes, they bust open every piece of wood, but find no marijuana. They
sneer at Virgil and leave.
Shortly, the phone rings at Virgil's house.
- 'Hey, Virgil! This here's Floyd....
Did the Sheriff come?'
- 'Yeah!'
- 'Did they chop your firewood?'
- 'Yep!'
- 'Happy Birthday, buddy!'

I know it doesn’t fit here but I can't resist

[Justice_Dawg]

beside this tragic case. through all that I read about this case and all those things that are going wrong, I just remember this one:
- 'Hello, is this the Sheriff's Office?'
- 'Yes. What can I do for you?'
- 'I'm calling to report 'bout my neighbor Virgil Smith....He's hidin' marijuana inside his firewood! Don't quite know how he gets it inside them logs, but he's hidin' it there.'
- 'Thank you very much for the call, sir.'
The next day, the Sheriff's Deputies descend on Virgil's house. They search
the shed where the firewood is kept.
Using axes, they bust open every piece of wood, but find no marijuana. They
sneer at Virgil and leave.
Shortly, the phone rings at Virgil's house.
- 'Hey, Virgil! This here's Floyd....
Did the Sheriff come?'
- 'Yeah!'
- 'Did they chop your firewood?'
- 'Yep!'
- 'Happy Birthday, buddy!'

I know it doesn’t fit here but I can't resist

OMG! That is too funny!
Mayberry USA:lol:

[LindaNJ1216]

beside this tragic case. through all that I read about this case and all those things that are going wrong, I just remember this one:
- 'Hello, is this the Sheriff's Office?'
- 'Yes. What can I do for you?'
- 'I'm calling to report 'bout my neighbor Virgil Smith....He's hidin' marijuana inside his firewood! Don't quite know how he gets it inside them logs, but he's hidin' it there.'
- 'Thank you very much for the call, sir.'
The next day, the Sheriff's Deputies descend on Virgil's house. They search
the shed where the firewood is kept.
Using axes, they bust open every piece of wood, but find no marijuana. They
sneer at Virgil and leave.
Shortly, the phone rings at Virgil's house.
- 'Hey, Virgil! This here's Floyd....
Did the Sheriff come?'
- 'Yeah!'
- 'Did they chop your firewood?'
- 'Yep!'
- 'Happy Birthday, buddy!'

I know it doesn’t fit here but I can't resist


ROFLMAO! Thanks..that was a good one!

[wolfi_2]

here is a link to a summary about this case in the other forum just look for "fran"

Motion to Suppress - Illegal Warrant
Motion to Suppress Statements

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76097&page=22

[Justice_Dawg]

here is a link to a summary about this case in the other forum just look for "fran"

Motion to Suppress - Illegal Warrant
Motion to Suppress Statements

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76097&page=22

Then that board is WAY behind us. We read those days ago. But thanks!

I want something NEW!!!! :)

[Justice_Dawg]

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/12/30/20081230childcharged30-ON.html

:thumbsup:

[Crispy]

LMAO I was just on my way here to post that article Justice!!

[Justice_Dawg]

LMAO I was just on my way here to post that article Justice!!

Results must be back...and the pros. won't talk. LOL

[Hawk]

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/12/30/20081230childcharged30-ON.html

:thumbsup:

The defense shrink said it's a no-go.
Prosecutions shrink, we don't know yet.
If it's 2-0 the thing is over?

If it's a tie will they go to another expert?

Will all, or any, of these reports be dealt with on Monday?

How about the motions to suppress? will Judge Roca make a ruling?

[Hawk]

THIS is freaking scary!!!!! :scared:

http://www.campaignmoney.com/political/527/avila4sheriff.asp

http://avila4sheriff.com/

"With all the public scrutiny that has overcome our Sheriff's Department it is time for a change. I will manage an honest department and staff to bring integrity back to our name."

Is she freaking kidding!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?:ohmy:

"Protecting the county after natural disasters"? "Negotiating.... for crimes against children"?

She is a natural disaster!

[Kara]

The defense shrink said it's a no-go.
Prosecutions shrink, we don't know yet.
If it's 2-0 the thing is over?

If it's a tie will they go to another expert?

Will all, or any, of these reports be dealt with on Monday?

How about the motions to suppress? will Judge Roca make a ruling?
I believe there will be 3 evaluations...one by the defense expert, one by the prosecution's expert and one by a court appointed expert.

Of course, that doesn't guarantee no trial...that will depend on the prosecutor and the judge.

moo

[Hawk]

AP story:

http://www.google.com:80/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iG_nB7rdOr3TiaL5ph3YDR5qNNTAD95D8TE80

[Hawk]

I believe there will be 3 evaluations...one by the defense expert, one by the prosecution's expert and one by a court appointed expert.

Of course, that doesn't guarantee no trial...that will depend on the prosecutor and the judge.

moo


If it's 3-0 doesn't that force the judge? I don't know how it works, that's why I asking.

[muska]

The article says the Appeals court will consider Carlyon's motion on January 13 and that could delay the case. Will they have to wait until after the 13th to decide on the boy's competency?

[Justice_Dawg]

AP story:

http://www.google.com:80/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iG_nB7rdOr3TiaL5ph3YDR5qNNTAD95D8TE80

Just the 2 evaluations. The other was abuse.

What we have here is a defense leak that this last guy agreed with the defense

[Kara]

If it's 3-0 doesn't that force the judge? I don't know how it works, that's why I asking.
Uhm...I'm basing my opinion on the Deanna Laney case. It was in Texas so it's not exactly the same...but Laney was the Texas mother that killed 2 of her 3 kids with a large rock and almost killed the third. She had no history of mental illness, but all 3 experts determined that she was insane. The case went to trial anyway and she was judged not guilty by reason of insanity.

[Hawk]

Just the 2 evaluations. The other was abuse.

What we have here is a defense leak that this last guy agreed with the defense

This legal stuff makes my head spin. Can we talk about guns, bullets, and sidedishs again?

[Justice_Dawg]

The article says the Appeals court will consider Carlyon's motion on January 13 and that could delay the case. Will they have to wait until after the 13th to decide on the boy's competency?

Brewer's motions and another by prosecutors to drop the murder charge stemming from the father's death won't be ruled on if the boy is found incompetent.
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/12/30/20081230childcharged30-ON.html

BY ANYONE. :biggrin:

[Justice_Dawg]

This legal stuff makes my head spin. Can we talk about guns, bullets, and sidedishs again?

I Love leaks!!!! :thumbsup:

[Hawk]

I Love leaks!!!! :thumbsup:


You've been right about those so far!

Now, about those guns,................

[Justice_Dawg]

You've been right about those so far!

Now, about those guns,................

Guns or casings?

Keen said "he thinks" the gun was fired from around the right corner of the steps.

Does that blow your theory on the casings?

[Hawk]

Guns or casings?

Keen said "he thinks" the gun was fired from around the right corner of the steps.

Does that blow your theory on the casings?

Not at all.

Looks like it may not matter anyway.

[Justice_Dawg]

Not at all.

Looks like it may not matter anyway.

I know. Wanna talk sidedish? :tonguewag:

[Hawk]

I know. Wanna talk sidedish? :tonguewag:

I'm so old now I couldn't even buy one.

[ChanginWinds]

This legal stuff makes my head spin. Can we talk about guns, bullets, and sidedishs again?

Well, I have another gun question - will that work?

Would the Mossberg rifle (whose manual was in a crime scene photo) be able to fire the 17HRM cartridges?

I believe no because it's a Mossberg 702 Plinkster, which according to this link http://www.mossbergintl.com/pages/702plinkster.htm is a .22.

The manual even specifically says on page 4 that it is only designed to operate with .22 long rifle cartridges. Mossberg does make a newer model (817) that does work with .17HMRs.

So am I right that the casings found at the scene would also be consistent with the Mossberg being the weapon? TIA

[Justice_Dawg]

Well, I have another gun question - will that work?

Would the Mossberg rifle (whose manual was in a crime scene photo) be able to fire the 17HRM cartridges?

I believe no because it's a Mossberg 702 Plinkster, which according to this link http://www.mossbergintl.com/pages/702plinkster.htm is a .22.

The manual even specifically says on page 4 that it is only designed to operate with .22 long rifle cartridges. Mossberg does make a newer model (817) that does work with .17HMRs.

So am I right that the casings found at the scene would also be consistent with the Mossberg being the weapon? TIA

That manual did look new. It could be the newer model.

[mrrogers]

she had a tech put porn on joels computer and as a result hes doing hard time in prison
before the trial she failed to deliver 22 subpeonas

do a search for joel k bar atty

http://www.joelbarrsstory.com/storypage1.html

ive contacted all the legislators in az and a report for the arizona republic trying to help

[Hawk]

Well, I have another gun question - will that work?

Would the Mossberg rifle (whose manual was in a crime scene photo) be able to fire the 17HRM cartridges?

I believe no because it's a Mossberg 702 Plinkster, which according to this link http://www.mossbergintl.com/pages/702plinkster.htm is a .22.

The manual even specifically says on page 4 that it is only designed to operate with .22 long rifle cartridges. Mossberg does make a newer model (817) that does work with .17HMRs.

So am I right that the casings found at the scene would also be consistent with the Mossberg being the weapon? TIA

.22LR and .17 HMR cartridges are not interchangeable. All ten of the casings found at the scene are .22 LF (Long Rifle).

The semi-auto Mossberg would eject (high right) the casings where the shooter was standing when he fired the weapon. The photos show the casings to be in locations inconsistent with the wounds. The empty shells were ejected at places that show a single action was used.

Why they took a photo of the box of .17 HMR ammo is a mystery. Unless someone used the plastic box to store loose .22s (which often come in a thin cardboard boxes that aren't durable enough to transport under hunting conditions).

.17 HMR wasn't used in the killings.
I zoomed in on the photo to see the box of cartridges in the crime scene photo but it was too blurry to tell what was inside.

Maybe someone with better eyes can have a look.

[ChanginWinds]

That manual did look new. It could be the newer model.

I was going by what the manual actually said - the manual in the photo is definitely for a 702 Plinkster - http://ktar.com/index.php?sid=993970&nid=237&pid=4

But who knows?? Maybe they just took random pictures of old manuals and ammo boxes with different cartridges inside... :shrug:

[ChanginWinds]

The semi-auto Mossberg would eject (high right) the casings where the shooter was standing when he fired the weapon. The photos show the casings to be in locations inconsistent with the wounds. The empty shells were ejected at places that show a single action was used.

...

Ah yes, I remember you mentioning that before. I'm giving myself a crash course in firearms here, so I didn't really get that logic at first.

Of course, if we really want to speculate (I do!!), perhaps someone with the presence of mind to leave the Chimpunk in plain view could also have moved one cartridge? (Ok, I'll take my tinfoil hat off now)

[Hawk]

I was going by what the manual actually said - the manual in the photo is definitely for a 702 Plinkster - http://ktar.com/index.php?sid=993970&nid=237&pid=4

But who knows?? Maybe they just took random pictures of old manuals and ammo boxes with different cartridges inside... :shrug:

Among the hundreds of pictures that were taken there could be anything in them. As messy as that house was a dead skunk could have been under something and be missed.

[Hawk]

Ah yes, I remember you mentioning that before. I'm giving myself a crash course in firearms here, so I didn't really get that logic at first.

Of course, if we really want to speculate (I do!!), perhaps someone with the presence of mind to leave the Chimpunk in plain view could also have moved one cartridge? (Ok, I'll take my tinfoil hat off now)


It would take one clever and conniving, murdering individual.
But yes, it could be. They would have had to move three on the steps and at least one from the porch. This would be, of course, to make it look like the kid did it. But he'd still know what happened.

[mrrogers]

to me its a mystery where that instruction manual came from.
the rifle shown in the pics is a single shot 22.no mention has been made
of finding a semi-auto 22 rifle that the instruction book belongs to

you can write
office@azcrimedog.net and send email to the defense team
or mark attn judge roca and theyll give it to the judge

[Hawk]

Is there a LEAK as to if the boy is back in detention yet?

[Hawk]

to me its a mystery where that instruction manual came from.
the rifle shown in the pics is a single shot 22.no mention has been made
of finding a semi-auto 22 rifle that the instruction book belongs to

you can write
office@azcrimedog.net and send email to the defense team
or mark attn judge roca and theyll give it to the judge

The box and manual are obviously new, but that doesn't mean the rifle is. It's typical among gun buyers to keep the box for resale purposes (it adds value).

It's been an ongoing argu......, uh, discussion, about who owns the Mossberg. My guess was Mr. Leroy Romero. Others think someone else. Maybe it was Mr. Romans and he took it home with him, leaving the box. Who knows?
Whatever the case LE claims no other .22 (the Chipmunk) was found at the scene.
It's a good question and needs an answer. A weapon like that could well have been used on Mr. Romans. Two chest shots 2-3 inches apart!

[Pag Boi]

Then that board is WAY behind us. We read those days ago. But thanks!

I want something NEW!!!! :)


Hey Justice Dawg. Lots of new stuff for me to read on the old thread. Whew. Y'all have been busy.

Just a couple of things jump out from what little I have read:

1) Neckles says she calls Chief after instruction from Sgt Rod about the other body inside. Chief's report says that Neckles called him and she didnt know if any suspects or other victims were in the house (same house that she was supposed to be helping her coworker secure LOL)

2) I saw several white cars mentioned. Amos drove one, an unknown hispanic contract worker and Tim's mom.

3) Joe Romero works in the same place that Tonya does. Joe was standing in front of the Smith's house at 18:35

4) Mark Mercer seems so helpful and full of info.

JMOO

[Hawk]

When is the boy due back to detention (prison)?

[IAMME]

The box and manual are obviously new, but that doesn't mean the rifle is. It's typical among gun buyers to keep the box for resale purposes (it adds value).

It's been an ongoing argu......, uh, discussion, about who owns the Mossberg. My guess was Mr. Leroy Romero. Others think someone else. Maybe it was Mr. Romans and he took it home with him, leaving the box. Who knows?
Whatever the case LE claims no other .22 (the Chipmunk) was found at the scene.
It's a good question and needs an answer. A weapon like that could well have been used on Mr. Romans. Two chest shots 2-3 inches apart!

In either DN or MA's deposition by Brewer they state that ALL of the .22s were taken form the scene.....which I would assume means there were more taken......

Dont forget also that there appears to be more than one missing gun....It was reported that Tim kept two in his truck, and that one of them was kept under his seat, the one we saw the pics of was in the center console, unless of course ONE of the barneys moved it.......

Gun question: Do you have to do anything to a chipmunk to convert it to shoot .17s? could you use both the LR and the .17 in that particular gun?

PS. who is Joe Romero?

[Hawk]

In either DN or MA's deposition by Brewer they state that ALL of the .22s were taken form the scene.....which I would assume means there were more taken......

Dont forget also that there appears to be more than one missing gun....It was reported that Tim kept two in his truck, and that one of them was kept under his seat, the one we saw the pics of was in the center console, unless of course ONE of the barneys moved it.......

Gun question: Do you have to do anything to a chipmunk to convert it to shoot .17s? could you use both the LR and the .17 in that particular gun?

PS. who is Joe Romero?

In the first hearing Mr. Brewer asks SGT Rodriguez if any other guns of the same caliber (.22) were found at the house. The Sgt. says, "no". The missing gun from Mr. Romans truck is a large caliber revolver. Not used in the murders.

There is no conversion of a .22LR to .17 HMR. The casings for the .17 are bottled necked, a squeezed down neck version of the .22 magnum. They will not chamber into a .22. Rifle or handgun.

Joe Romero is Vincent's uncle. Or maybe cousin brother, as referred to as another person in another report.

[Pag Boi]

In either DN or MA's deposition by Brewer they state that ALL of the .22s were taken form the scene.....which I would assume means there were more taken......

Dont forget also that there appears to be more than one missing gun....It was reported that Tim kept two in his truck, and that one of them was kept under his seat, the one we saw the pics of was in the center console, unless of course ONE of the barneys moved it.......

Gun question: Do you have to do anything to a chipmunk to convert it to shoot .17s? could you use both the LR and the .17 in that particular gun?

PS. who is Joe Romero?

Does the SW back up that more than one gun was taken? I don't recall.

Per the Officer's report, Joe Romero is Vincent's uncle

[mrrogers]

nope theres no way you could use that cartridge in a 22.
its considered what gun nuts call a "wildcat " because someone invented
it with a specific purpose (like shootin prarie dogs) in mind

[suzanne]

When is he due back in detention?Did I miss that?

[mrrogers]

he was due back yesterday i think

[Justice_Dawg]

to me its a mystery where that instruction manual came from.
the rifle shown in the pics is a single shot 22.no mention has been made
of finding a semi-auto 22 rifle that the instruction book belongs to

you can write
office@azcrimedog.net and send email to the defense team
or mark attn judge roca and theyll give it to the judge

Did that long ago. It was at the bottom of VR and TR's bed in an open rifle case. :tonguewag: Actually I have Ron Wood's email. He has no idea who's plinkster it was. He said the government won't even tell him which gun was used in the murders.

[Hawk]

he was due back yesterday i think

That's what I thought, too. But you better hold on. Maybe the LEAK will tell us. She's mighty stingy with information sometimes.

[Hawk]

Did that long ago. It was at the bottom of VR and TR's bed in an open rifle case. :tonguewag: Actually I have Ron Wood's email. He has no idea who's plinkster it was. He said the government won't even tell him which gun was used in the murders.

By TR I'm assuming you mean Tiffany Romero. Not TR Tim Romans. Joking!
So Sgt. Rodriguez was mistaken that there were no other.22s in the house? Is that perjury, incompetence, or both?

[Justice_Dawg]

By TR I'm assuming you mean Tiffany Romero. Not TR Tim Romans. Joking!
So Sgt. Rodriguez was mistaken that there were no other.22s in the house? Is that perjury, incompetence, or both?

They did take at least one other .22 rifle. Why it is such a secret is unknown to me.
Wood did mention Plinkster.

[Justice_Dawg]

That's what I thought, too. But you better hold on. Maybe the LEAK will tell us. She's mighty stingy with information sometimes.

He is not in custody as far as I know. We will wait for the leak.

:chicken:

[Hawk]

They did take at least one other .22 rifle. Why it is such a secret is unknown to me.
Wood did mention Plinkster.

Then Sgt. Rodriguez lied? He is, in fact, the main investigating officer (along with 'Dective Neckel').

[Hawk]

He is not in custody as far as I know. We will wait for the leak.

:chicken:

Thank you.
We'll wait for whoever the LEAK is.

[Hawk]

They did take at least one other .22 rifle. Why it is such a secret is unknown to me.
Wood did mention Plinkster.


It could mean that all, or none, of the firing pin marks match the Chipmunk. Wouldn't that be a revelation?

[Justice_Dawg]

Tour of St. Johns Arizona

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoOK1YFPiWw&feature=related

[Justice_Dawg]

It could mean that all, or none, of the firing pin marks match the Chipmunk. Wouldn't that be a revelation?

New Info: Just got word a .22 handgun was also taken into evidence. 11 casings.
We will have to wait for a link to that. It was on AZ TV.

[Hawk]

Tour of St. Johns Arizona

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoOK1YFPiWw&feature=related

The video is reminiscent of the 25 years I spent crossing the country on business. These areas are so remote that folks living in metro can't really relate to them. The vast spaces between towns in the west can't be found in the east.

[Hawk]

New Info: Just got word a .22 handgun was also taken into evidence. 11 casings.
We will have to wait for a link to that. It was on AZ TV.

Let's hold onto our ..... until Ms. Stingy shares!

[PensiveOne]

Exactly - this is really bugging me. Here are some pictures I found for comparison.

1) casing at the crime scene - 1.5 cms and NOT necked in
http://www.azfamily.com/perl/common/slideshow/sspop.pl?recid=13142&nextimage=0

2) typical .22 LRs - casing length is 1.5 cm
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kleinkaliber_22lr.jpg

2) On the left, a .17 HMR (like the ones in the Hornady box at the scene. On the right, a .22 LR. It's obvious that the .17 HMR's casing is significantly longer than the .22 LR's. Also, the .17 HMR's casing is "necked in" at the top.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:17HMR_and_22LR_B.jpg

So was LE purposely deceitful in implying that they found the ammo that was used?

Thanks for the pictures! I have been wondering what the difference was in the casings. A picture is worth a thousand words:thumbup:

[Hawk]

New Info: Just got word a .22 handgun was also taken into evidence. 11 casings.
We will have to wait for a link to that. It was on AZ TV.

Well! Where is it?

[Hawk]

Thanks for the pictures! I have been wondering what the difference was in the casings. A picture is worth a thousand words:thumbup:

Now you know. What are your thoughts?

[PensiveOne]

beside this tragic case. through all that I read about this case and all those things that are going wrong, I just remember this one:
- 'Hello, is this the Sheriff's Office?'
- 'Yes. What can I do for you?'
- 'I'm calling to report 'bout my neighbor Virgil Smith....He's hidin' marijuana inside his firewood! Don't quite know how he gets it inside them logs, but he's hidin' it there.'
- 'Thank you very much for the call, sir.'
The next day, the Sheriff's Deputies descend on Virgil's house. They search
the shed where the firewood is kept.
Using axes, they bust open every piece of wood, but find no marijuana. They
sneer at Virgil and leave.
Shortly, the phone rings at Virgil's house.
- 'Hey, Virgil! This here's Floyd....
Did the Sheriff come?'
- 'Yeah!'
- 'Did they chop your firewood?'
- 'Yep!'
- 'Happy Birthday, buddy!'

I know it doesn’t fit here but I can't resist

Now that's funny!:lol::lol::lol:

[Hawk]

Sorry! Didn't mean to hurt your feelings.

Let's get it rolling!

[Hawk]

Let's remember that three shots were heard by neighbors. Three shots were not (regarding Mr. Romans).

[PensiveOne]

Now you know. What are your thoughts?

My thoughts are I wonder how a tiny boy with tiny hands could have handled 10 or 11 bullets. I guess he could have stuck them in his pockets, but they didn't find any live rounds on the floor or in his pockets. BTW, I talked to a marine sniper friend of mine today. He is a gun NUT. I asked him if he thought an eight year old could have done this. He has been shooting since he was six. He was an expert at 10. He said in his opinion no way. He said even he was too clumsy at 8 and the shots just didn't sound like something a kid who had only been shooting a few months could make. He thinks they should be looking elsewhere. Time will tell. JMO.

[PensiveOne]

Now you know. What are your thoughts?

Oops...I didn't answer you very well. I am a little rusty since I have barely had time to log in the last few days. My thoughts are that you are correct that the .17's are not the bullets that were used, unless they used the box for the .22's. Thanks again for those pictures, I really didn't understand what "necked in" meant.

[Justice_Dawg]

My thoughts are I wonder how a tiny boy with tiny hands could have handled 10 or 11 bullets. I guess he could have stuck them in his pockets, but they didn't find any live rounds on the floor or in his pockets. BTW, I talked to a marine sniper friend of mine today. He is a gun NUT. I asked him if he thought an eight year old could have done this. He has been shooting since he was six. He was an expert at 10. He said in his opinion no way. He said even he was too clumsy at 8 and the shots just didn't sound like something a kid who had only been shooting a few months could make. He thinks they should be looking elsewhere. Time will tell. JMO.
See he agrees with my Marine recons.:beer:

[PensiveOne]

See he agrees with my Marine recons.:beer:

Yep. He has killed a lot of people during the gulf wars and he said that shooting at an animal and killing a human being are two very different situations. Especially the first time. He thought the kid would have been completely undone by the first murder and unable to shoot the other guy. He said it made no sense at all.

[Hawk]

My thoughts are I wonder how a tiny boy with tiny hands could have handled 10 or 11 bullets. I guess he could have stuck them in his pockets, but they didn't find any live rounds on the floor or in his pockets. BTW, I talked to a marine sniper friend of mine today. He is a gun NUT. I asked him if he thought an eight year old could have done this. He has been shooting since he was six. He was an expert at 10. He said in his opinion no way. He said even he was too clumsy at 8 and the shots just didn't sound like something a kid who had only been shooting a few months could make. He thinks they should be looking elsewhere. Time will tell. JMO.

I doubt anyone is an expert at 10. I have no doubt that your friend is an expert now. God Bless him. Semper FI!

Everyone has a story. I served in Viet Nam. So did my brother-in-law. My two nephews were Marines, one of which served in the first Gulf war (along side his dad). One of their sons in currently in Iraq. One of my son-in law just got back. My other son-in law is a cop here in my hometown.
I knew most of them when they were kids. None of them, as youngsters, could shoot worth a damn. They couldn't load, without spilling ammo. They couldn't aim, without shaking all over the place. They couldn't hit s..t.
I (before Nov 5) recently took my 8 year old grandson to a shooting range. He shot a .22 rifle, a .22 Ruger pistol, a .38 S&W, and a 30-30 rifle. He has been shooting several times before and I can assure you, he could not have done what the youngster in this case is accused of.
I don't think any memeber of my family, including myself, could have physically, or emotionally (regarding nerve) done it.
All the evidence points toward the kid.
All the hard-asses I've mentioned above says it ain't so.

[muska]

I've been reading about the Mossberg 702 Plinkster and the chipmunk rifle. I don't know if this means much but the Mossberg's manual says: "Because the rifle can be used as a single shot, it will fire whether a magazine is in the rifle if a cartridge is chambered." It also says that "if desired, the rifle can be single loaded with a cartridge directly into the chamber." And the"702 features an automatic bolt lock."

What do these statements mean? I don't know anything about guns but this info sounds like the Mossberg could be used as a single action gun if so desired. Is that right?

www.mossbergint.com/manuals/702_RevD.pdg

[PensiveOne]

I doubt anyone is an expert at 10. I have no doubt that your friend is an expert now. God Bless him. Semper FI!

Everyone has a story. I served in Viet Nam. So did my brother-in-law. My two nephews were Marines, one of which served in the first Gulf war (along side his dad). One of their sons in currently in Iraq. My son-in law just got back. My other son-in law is a cop here in my hometown.
I knew most of them when they were kids. None of them, as youngsters, could shoot worth a damn. They couldn't load, without spilling ammo. They couldn't aim, without shaking all over the place. They couldn't hit s..t.
I (before Nov 5) recently took my 8 year old grandson to a shooting range. He shot a .22 rifle, a .22 Ruger pistol, a .38 S&W, and a 30-30 rifle. He has been shooting several times before and I can assure you, he could not have done what the youngster in this case is accused of.
I don't think any memeber of my family, including myself, could have physically, or emotionally (regarding nerve) done it.
All the evidence points toward the kid.
All the hard-asses I've mentioned above says it ain't so.

I know...the whole scenario makes no sense at all. My uncle taught me to shoot at twelve, with a .22 rifle. It wasn't the little chipmunk, just a regular .22. He took me and my cousin to the garbage dump to shoot rats. Yuck! Anyway, I shot all summer long and I remember how hard it was to load that darn thing. But then...I am a clutz:biggrin:

[PensiveOne]

I doubt anyone is an expert at 10. I have no doubt that your friend is an expert now. God Bless him. Semper FI!

Everyone has a story. I served in Viet Nam. So did my brother-in-law. My two nephews were Marines, one of which served in the first Gulf war (along side his dad). One of their sons in currently in Iraq. One son-in law just got back. My other son-in law is a cop here in my hometown.
I knew most of them when they were kids. None of them, as youngsters, could shoot worth a damn. They couldn't load, without spilling ammo. They couldn't aim, without shaking all over the place. They couldn't hit s..t.
I (before Nov 5) recently took my 8 year old grandson to a shooting range. He shot a .22 rifle, a .22 Ruger pistol, a .38 S&W, and a 30-30 rifle. He has been shooting several times before and I can assure you, he could not have done what the youngster in this case is accused of.
I don't think any memeber of my family, including myself, could have physically, or emotionally (regarding nerve) done it.
All the evidence points toward the kid.
All the hard-asses I've mentioned above says it ain't so.

God bless the men in your family:rose:

[Hawk]

I know...the whole scenario makes no sense at all. My uncle taught me to shoot at twelve, with a .22 rifle. It wasn't the little chipmunk, just a regular .22. He took me and my cousin to the garbage dump to shoot rats. Yuck! Anyway, I shot all summer long and I remember how hard it was to load that darn thing. But then...I am a clutz:biggrin:

At the time we didn't understand that rats serve a purpose.

We've shot them too, down in Dixie. (I see you're in SC. That's Dixie too, of course).
Wait a little while. Be Still. Then turn on the headlights.
Let the fun begin!

[PensiveOne]

At the time we didn't understand that rats serve a purpose.

We've shot them too, down in Dixie. (I see you're in SC. That's Dixie too, of course).
Wait a little while. Be Still. Then turn on the headlights.
Let the fun begin!

You got it! Headlights and flashlights! It was fun:smile:

[Hawk]

You got it! Headlights and flashlights! It was fun:smile:

Damned rats. My sister wound up marrying one. Not!

[PensiveOne]

Damned rats. My sister wound up marrying one. Not!
I definately felt no guilt about killing the rats:smile: I hope we find out more about this case soon. Have a good night, maybe there will be some news tomorrow.:seeya:

[Hawk]

You got it! Headlights and flashlights! It was fun:smile:

We grew up around firearms. We respected the damage they can do. We understood the consequences of misuse. We respected what our parents told us. We saw what happens on the receiving end of a firearm.

So, what changed?

[PensiveOne]

We grew up around firearms. We respected the damage they can do. We understood the consequences of misuse. We respected what our parents told us. We saw what happens on the receiving end of a firearm.

So, what changed?

A lot has changed. My dad had a huge gun rack in his bedroom. We were not allowed to touch the guns without permission. He kept the ammo locked up, and that was many, many years ago. We all had bows and arrows and BB guns, though. My brothers all hunted at a young age by themselves or together. We ate what they killed, too. We all worked as soon as we could. We ate supper at the table, prayed together and talked to each other instead of watching TV and playing video games. Also, we were never home alone. But I came from a large family. I don't recall anybody bringing guns to school or shooting their teachers & classmates. We certainly understood what killing and death was since we saw it often on the farm. If I had talked to my parents the way some of these kids do today...I wouldn't have been able to walk the next day.

[PensiveOne]

A lot has changed. My dad had a huge gun rack in his bedroom. We were not allowed to touch the guns without permission. He kept the ammo locked up, and that was many, many years ago. We all had bows and arrows and BB guns, though. My brothers all hunted at a young age by themselves or together. We ate what they killed, too. We all worked as soon as we could. We ate supper at the table, prayed together and talked to each other instead of watching TV and playing video games. Also, we were never home alone. But I came from a large family. I don't recall anybody bringing guns to school or shooting their teachers & classmates. We certainly understood what killing and death was since we saw it often on the farm. If I had talked to my parents the way some of these kids do today...I wouldn't have been able to walk the next day.

P.S. "Girls" and "boys" had specific things they were allowed to do...my dad didn't think girls needed to learn to shoot a gun:biggrin: Why can't I edit my posts?

[Justice_Dawg]

A lot has changed. My dad had a huge gun rack in his bedroom. We were not allowed to touch the guns without permission. He kept the ammo locked up, and that was many, many years ago. We all had bows and arrows and BB guns, though. My brothers all hunted at a young age by themselves or together. We ate what they killed, too. We all worked as soon as we could. We ate supper at the table, prayed together and talked to each other instead of watching TV and playing video games. Also, we were never home alone. But I came from a large family. I don't recall anybody bringing guns to school or shooting their teachers & classmates. We certainly understood what killing and death was since we saw it often on the farm. If I had talked to my parents the way some of these kids do today...I wouldn't have been able to walk the next day.


My X husband comes from a long line of hunters. He always had all guns locked up in the glass case. A flip out part of it had ammo, and a different key to that. Then there was stuff in the bottom drawers that had yet another lock and key. NOW That is safety. When we visited his parents, you never saw a gun, they were all locked up in a hugh gun cabinet with all kinds of guns, bows and arrows, a gun powder thingy, ect.
The only time we saw a gun was when one of them opened it as a Christmas present.
Even the handgun I carry is in a locked case.

[ChildsVOICE]

beside this tragic case. through all that I read about this case and all those things that are going wrong, I just remember this one:
- 'Hello, is this the Sheriff's Office?'
- 'Yes. What can I do for you?'
- 'I'm calling to report 'bout my neighbor Virgil Smith....He's hidin' marijuana inside his firewood! Don't quite know how he gets it inside them logs, but he's hidin' it there.'
- 'Thank you very much for the call, sir.'
The next day, the Sheriff's Deputies descend on Virgil's house. They search
the shed where the firewood is kept.
Using axes, they bust open every piece of wood, but find no marijuana. They
sneer at Virgil and leave.
Shortly, the phone rings at Virgil's house.
- 'Hey, Virgil! This here's Floyd....
Did the Sheriff come?'
- 'Yeah!'
- 'Did they chop your firewood?'
- 'Yep!'
- 'Happy Birthday, buddy!'

I know it doesn’t fit here but I can't resist

Wolfi 2,
St. Johns' PD would have arrested poor old Virgil ANYWAY! LOL Good one!

[dgfred]

My thoughts are I wonder how a tiny boy with tiny hands could have handled 10 or 11 bullets. I guess he could have stuck them in his pockets, but they didn't find any live rounds on the floor or in his pockets. BTW, I talked to a marine sniper friend of mine today. He is a gun NUT. I asked him if he thought an eight year old could have done this. He has been shooting since he was six. He was an expert at 10. He said in his opinion no way. He said even he was too clumsy at 8 and the shots just didn't sound like something a kid who had only been shooting a few months could make. He thinks they should be looking elsewhere. Time will tell. JMO.

My thoughts too, some things are just not adding up.

[ChildsVOICE]

re: Victims were not shot at close range.

According to Autopsy reports, NO gun powder residue on either victim/shooter must have been at least 2 and a half feet from both victims.

Boy is 4 feet in height.

Rifle has about 24" barrel plus handle.

Confined space of stairwell and upstairs hallway from which shooter shot Vincent.

Add this all up.

There's no way a 4 foot child shot Vincent!

From locations of all the shell casings so close to Tim's body & around the front entrance doesn't sound like a 4 foot child could pull it off without leaving gun powder residue.

Someone had to be firing or ejecting a shell while holding the door open to allow the casing to get in between the door jam.

Right or wrong on this analysis?

[GentleBreeze]

re: Victims were not shot at close range.

According to Autopsy reports, NO gun powder residue on either victim/shooter must have been at least 2 and a half feet from both victims.

Boy is 4 feet in height.

Rifle has about 24" barrel plus handle.

Confined space of stairwell and upstairs hallway from which shooter shot Vincent.

Add this all up.

There's no way a 4 foot child shot Vincent!

From locations of all the shell casings so close to Tim's body & around the front entrance doesn't sound like a 4 foot child could pull it off without leaving gun powder residue.

Someone had to be firing or ejecting a shell while holding the door open to allow the casing to get in between the door jam.

Right or wrong on this analysis?

That is not exactly true. There was one close up shot fired into the head of Vincent Romero and one close up shot fired into the head of Tim Romans. Imo that is why brain matter and spinal fluid could be seen at the crime scene.

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/Autopsy-St-Johns-murder-victims-shot-in-the-head/gsb18gJlwkizzVprKFwW0A.cspx

Pima County Pathologist Cynthia Porterfield wrote “Examination of the entrance wound reveals no evidence of close range firing” for three of Romero’s gunshot wounds and five of Roman’s gunshot wounds.

imoo

[ChildsVOICE]

she had a tech put porn on joels computer and as a result hes doing hard time in prison
before the trial she failed to deliver 22 subpeonas

do a search for joel k bar atty

http://www.joelbarrsstory.com/storypage1.html

ive contacted all the legislators in az and a report for the arizona republic trying to help

Did another post say she had a previous connection to another false confession with a link? I'd like to have that info to post on the child's myspace page. Anybody have that?

[ChildsVOICE]

Yep. He has killed a lot of people during the gulf wars and he said that shooting at an animal and killing a human being are two very different situations. Especially the first time. He thought the kid would have been completely undone by the first murder and unable to shoot the other guy. He said it made no sense at all.

That's what we've been saying here in Virginia! We agree!

[dgfred]

What are some possible scenarios that you guys/gals think might have
really happened?

So right now the going theory is that the 8yr old reloaded ten times???

[muska]

Just wanted to take a moment to wish all of you a happy new year!

Like most of you, I will say an extra prayer for this little boy, his mother and all those family and friends affected by this tragedy.

[wolfi_2]

5 minutes ago....

Happy New Year

[bkwits]

:rose:

Happy New Year Everyone

[Justice_Dawg]

happy new year!

[Justice_Dawg]

2 new filings up!

[bkwits]

2 new filings up!

This is OT but can I ask since you are from New Jersey and live in Cincy, why do you root for the Dolphins? Just wonderin?

[Justice_Dawg]

This is OT but can I ask since you are from New Jersey and live in Cincy, why do you root for the Dolphins? Just wonderin?

Because I want to live in Florida! :lol::lol::lol:

[bkwits]

Because I want to live in Florida! :lol::lol:


I see. :tongueside:

It looks like the therapist was too expensive. At least the judge thought so.

[LindaNJ1216]

A lot has changed. My dad had a huge gun rack in his bedroom. We were not allowed to touch the guns without permission. He kept the ammo locked up, and that was many, many years ago. We all had bows and arrows and BB guns, though. My brothers all hunted at a young age by themselves or together. We ate what they killed, too. We all worked as soon as we could. We ate supper at the table, prayed together and talked to each other instead of watching TV and playing video games. Also, we were never home alone. But I came from a large family. I don't recall anybody bringing guns to school or shooting their teachers & classmates. We certainly understood what killing and death was since we saw it often on the farm. If I had talked to my parents the way some of these kids do today...I wouldn't have been able to walk the next day.


Exactly!

I think there is just something terribly wrong with this kid.

I have a son (10) who has always been incredibly athletic and extremely coordinated. He could physically do it without a problem at 8 I'm sure.

[wolfi_2]

Exactly!

I think there is just something terribly wrong with this kid.

I have a son (10) who has always been incredibly athletic and extremely coordinated. He could physically do it without a problem at 8 I'm sure.


The boy isn’t athletic, he is very small, I saw a picture some day’s ago and I think that´s not up anymore.

[Hawk]

The boy isn’t athletic, he is very small, I saw a picture some day’s ago and I think that´s not up anymore.

I think they said he was born premature.

[suzanne]

The boy isn’t athletic, he is very small, I saw a picture some day’s ago and I think that´s not up anymore.

I was sickly and small when I was born and later also but I was still athletic.I just missed a few track meets because I wasn't feeling well.May I please ask if you know where the picture of this little boy is?Are we allowed to show it.


HAPPY NEW YEAR.

[wolfi_2]

I was sickly and small when I was born and later also but I was still athletic.I just missed a few track meets because I wasn't feeling well.May I please ask if you know where the picture of this little boy is?Are we allowed to show it.


HAPPY NEW YEAR.

Sorry, but no, I can’t share the link, because it doesn’t exist anymore, and I also wouldn’t share it. And yes, I think it’s not allowed for his safety.

[bkwits]

Sorry, but no, I can’t share the link, because it doesn’t exist anymore, and I also wouldn’t share it. And yes, I think it’s not allowed for his safety.

Thank you Wolfi>>:wub:

[suzanne]

Sorry, but no, I can’t share the link, because it doesn’t exist anymore, and I also wouldn’t share it. And yes, I think it’s not allowed for his safety.

Ok,I can understand them not showing it for his safety.

[suzanne]

I knew they didn't show it before.I was wondering why you saw it somewhere and if they were showing it now.

[ALL RISE]

Prosecution doctor says boy is fit (mentally) to stand trial defense expert says no....sounds like a trial and a jury will have to decide? I don't see the prosecution backing down never to file any charges or let this drop at any point.

I feel so very sorry for this boy.

[suzanne]

This is OT but can I ask since you are from New Jersey and live in Cincy, why do you root for the Dolphins? Just wonderin?

LOL.I root for the Dallas Cowboys(Not a good idea in Washington D.C.) even as a little girl but I was born and raised in Florida.But I am for the Miami Dolphins and Tampa Bay too.Who is Miami playing?

[wolfi_2]

I knew they didn't show it before.I was wondering why you saw it somewhere and if they were showing it now.

You must think around a corner as we Germany say; in this case you have to think around three corners’ to find the pictures. -As this case come up in November, I googled a while around and found what I’m looking for, I just tried the link again now and it’s dead!

[wolfi_2]

Prosecution doctor says boy is fit (mentally) to stand trial defense expert says no....sounds like a trial and a jury will have to decide? I don't see the prosecution backing down never to file any charges or let this drop at any point.

I feel so very sorry for this boy.

About the prosecution doctor, where did you find it?

[suzanne]

Oh,and I am always for the Jacksonville Jaguars.I would love to move back there.But we just can't for a very long time.:sad:Did Dallas Cowboys and Tampa Bay get eliminated?.:sad:

[muska]

I was afraid the state would know someone they could pay enough to say the boy was fit - that's just a sick stretch of the imagination to say that an eight year old will be fine to help with his own defense. Actually, I think it sounds criminal.

[GentleBreeze]

Prosecution doctor says boy is fit (mentally) to stand trial defense expert says no....sounds like a trial and a jury will have to decide? I don't see the prosecution backing down never to file any charges or let this drop at any point.

I feel so very sorry for this boy.

Brewer already asked for a jury trial and it was denied. So this case if it goes forward now will be tried by a sole Judge.

I just don't understand why the Judge did not appoint a expert for the Court, which has no vested interest in the case, and is not on one side or the other. That way if it arose this way, then he could have another independent opinion to help him form his decision. :confused:

imo

[GentleBreeze]

I was afraid the state would know someone they could pay enough to say the boy was fit - that's just a sick stretch of the imagination to say that an eight year old will be fine to help with his own defense. Actually, I think it sounds criminal.

Since a child 8 years of age in Az. can be charged with a crime, I wonder how those other cases are held?

imoo

[wolfi_2]

Since a child 8 years of age in Az. can be charged with a crime, I wonder how those other cases are held?

imoo

That’s why the most country’s of the western world set a minimum age for children that’s normally around 13 year’s. And also the most country doesn’t try children below 18 as adult, there are only one or two country’s doing that…..

[Justice_Dawg]

Exactly!

I think there is just something terribly wrong with this kid.

I have a son (10) who has always been incredibly athletic and extremely coordinated. He could physically do it without a problem at 8 I'm sure.

Watch your back.


:lol:

[Justice_Dawg]

Prosecution doctor says boy is fit (mentally) to stand trial defense expert says no....sounds like a trial and a jury will have to decide? I don't see the prosecution backing down never to file any charges or let this drop at any point.

I feel so very sorry for this boy.

Where are you spreading rumors like that? That is not true at ALL!

[Justice_Dawg]

I was afraid the state would know someone they could pay enough to say the boy was fit - that's just a sick stretch of the imagination to say that an eight year old will be fine to help with his own defense. Actually, I think it sounds criminal.

Don't listen to them. :angry:
Last Update: 12/31/2008 10:56 pm
They say their expert has ruled the child to be incompetent, meaning he doesn’t understand the charges against him.

An expert for the State conducted it’s evaluation earlier this month but results are still pending.

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/Whats-the-1-ABC15-com-story-in-2008/hjTBjFUTEEitdzcZsaNp2Q.cspx