Father charged in hypothermia death [Sage Jenks Aragon, 11, died ]

[Senni]

A father "allowed" his two children to walk to their mothers home, 10 miles in negative temperatures on Christmas Day. The boy, 12 yrs, survives, his younger sister 11, dies. He is in jail on charges of 2nd degree murder, and 2 counts of child endangerment.

story can be found here...http://www.magicvalley.com/articles/2008/12/29/news/top_story/151765.txt

[NatalieB]

It was a stupid decision, there is no question about that, but I'm not sure prosecuting the father is the best plan of action here. Unless of course we'd find out he had any history of endangering his children's lives. I'd think the pain of causing your child's death would be more punishment that the judicial system could ever hand down.

[museumgirl]

I think he should be charged and punished... yeah, he has to live with that decision. But what if his decision was made just purely because he didn't care??? It was child endangerment, no doubt about it. Just like leaving a child in the car in either winter or summer..... he was the parent... he was responsible for their safety......

[LisaM22]

why did the father not take them? why did the mother not pick them up, she knew they were coming. doesn't make sense, so tragic

never mind, reading the article, the fathers car got stuck and he allowed the children to walk the rest of the way, cell phone did not have service it sounds like so could not call the mother

[LisaM22]

I think the father was overcharged, maybe he should be charged with something, just not murder imo as I do not think this should be classified as a murder

http://www.magicvalley.com/articles/2008/12/29/news/top_story/151765.txt

"As for Jenks, she cannot understand the father's alleged decisions in the tragedy. She said Aragon hasn't been a bad father. The two are not married.

"When I do see him, I'm not going to say anything," she said. "I don't need to sit and yell. I know he's going through hell right now.""

from the article sounds like he just made a very very bad decision and I do think he will never forgive himself for the rest of his life - that is punishment enough, I think it is obvious he never meant for this to happen imo

[NatalieB]

I think the father was overcharged, maybe he should be charged with something, just not murder imo as I do not think this should be classified as a murder

http://www.magicvalley.com/articles/2008/12/29/news/top_story/151765.txt

"As for Jenks, she cannot understand the father's alleged decisions in the tragedy. She said Aragon hasn't been a bad father. The two are not married.

"When I do see him, I'm not going to say anything," she said. "I don't need to sit and yell. I know he's going through hell right now.""

from the article sounds like he just made a very very bad decision and I do think he will never forgive himself for the rest of his life - that is punishment enough, I think it is obvious he never meant for this to happen imo

This is why I didn't think he should be prosecuted either. For one, the children's mother says he was a good father (basically). Then, the father tried to take them to their mother's, but got stranded himself. While it was a foolish decision, I'm sure freezing to death never entered his mind. That's definitely stupidity, but I'm not sure it raises this to the level of murder.

This was never a case where dad was too lazy or derelict to take the children to their mother's. He also got police involved immediately when he realized something was wrong.

I think his punishment is greater than anything the courts can give him. I can't imagine having to live with something like that. I hope they reduce the charges because I can't see a jury out for blood on this one. Why waste the taxpayers money with such a trial?

[Senni]

http://www.mtexpress.com/vu_breaking_story.php?bid=6461

Okay, he's in pain, but when it was negative 14 outside, and his car was stuck in a snowdrift, he thought the kids would make it? And when he got within cell range which was after he got unstuck and on the highway, drove home 60 miles and never called the mother to tell her, he left them walking? He had cell service within a mile of where he was stuck. She finally called him and he says "like what? they aren't there?" Then drove back 60 miles to look for her. Afterall there were 2 adults in the car, one of them should have had a brain. They both allowed these two children to walk in 2ft of snow 8 miles? Besides the wind and the -14 degree temperature? Nice or not, good father or not, he was responsible for this girls life. Don't worry this is the same county that prosecuted Sarah Johnson, he'll get a slap!

[LisaM22]

http://www.mtexpress.com/vu_breaking_story.php?bid=6461

Okay, he's in pain, but when it was negative 14 outside, and his car was stuck in a snowdrift, he thought the kids would make it? And when he got within cell range which was after he got unstuck and on the highway, drove home 60 miles and never called the mother to tell her, he left them walking? He had cell service within a mile of where he was stuck. She finally called him and he says "like what? they aren't there?" Then drove back 60 miles to look for her. Afterall there were 2 adults in the car, one of them should have had a brain. They both allowed these two children to walk in 2ft of snow 8 miles? Besides the wind and the -14 degree temperature? Nice or not, good father or not, he was responsible for this girls life. Don't worry this is the same county that prosecuted Sarah Johnson, he'll get a slap!

where did you see the temp was 14 below or that they had to walk through two feet of snow?

I would also like to know how they were dressed if anyone comes across that

[LindaNJ1216]

Perhaps he judged wrong and believed he broke down much closer than he actually was?

Geeesh...I can't believe when he got his car back on the road he didn't drive the last 10 miles to check on them or call

very very sad...and stupid

[Senni]

where did you see the temp was 14 below or that they had to walk through two feet of snow?

I would also like to know how they were dressed if anyone comes across that

I know because I live 13 miles from where this happened. We were monitoring the weather christmas day because of our own kids wanting to ride their snowmachine. It was way too cold even dressed properly to be out that day. We also sheltered our animals that day because of the cold. There was 2 ft approx of snow that morning, if the road was plowed that morning, it might not have been so deep. But our road wasn't plowed til the next morning (Fri) and we live relatively close in town.
I also know he had cell service after he got his car out and back onto the highway, or at least within a 5 min drive. He never called his wife to tell her that they were walking. According to the article she was worried that they hadn't showed up and might be stuck on the road somewhere and called him.

[LisaM22]

this is what the weather underground show for weather that day

http://www.wunderground.com/weatherstation/WXDailyHistory.asp?ID=KIDJEROM2&month=12&day=25&year=2008

looks like in the morning and afternoon was above 30, but did fall latter in the evening

[LisaM22]

I know because I live 13 miles from where this happened. We were monitoring the weather christmas day because of our own kids wanting to ride their snowmachine. It was way too cold even dressed properly to be out that day. We also sheltered our animals that day because of the cold. There was 2 ft approx of snow that morning, if the road was plowed that morning, it might not have been so deep. But our road wasn't plowed til the next morning (Fri) and we live relatively close in town.
I also know he had cell service after he got his car out and back onto the highway, or at least within a 5 min drive. He never called his wife to tell her that they were walking. According to the article she was worried that they hadn't showed up and might be stuck on the road somewhere and called him.

sounds like it got much colder later in the evening and I think that is what you are remembering, what this guy did was stupid, he may not have been thinking clearly, he was stuck, his cell did not work, he made a choice, a very bad one, no doubt about that, but murder? I do not think so

[Senni]

this is what the weather underground show for weather that day

http://www.wunderground.com/weatherstation/WXDailyHistory.asp?ID=KIDJEROM2&month=12&day=25&year=2008

looks like in the morning and afternoon was above 30, but did fall latter in the evening

I'm not trying to argue with you, but the weather you looked up is for Jerome, which is 60 miles to the south. Look up Hailey, its closer. High were 19, wind chill is much lower my local Weatherbug had -14 windchill (when you are cold and wet this is a major factor) it also says heavy snow. Most major roads in this area were closed. A road running N to S about 10 miles west of this area they were in was closed for 2 days.

So if you don't think its 2nd degree murder ( Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion" or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life. Second-degree murder may best be viewed as the middle ground between first-degree murder and voluntary manslaughter.

What would you charge him with? Stupidity? What if it was your daughter? or grandchild? It wasn't intentional, but it should be accountable.

[NatalieB]

I'm not trying to argue with you, but the weather you looked up is for Jerome, which is 60 miles to the south. Look up Hailey, its closer. High were 19, wind chill is much lower my local Weatherbug had -14 windchill (when you are cold and wet this is a major factor) it also says heavy snow. Most major roads in this area were closed. A road running N to S about 10 miles west of this area they were in was closed for 2 days.

So if you don't think its 2nd degree murder ( Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion" or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life. Second-degree murder may best be viewed as the middle ground between first-degree murder and voluntary manslaughter.

What would you charge him with? Stupidity? What if it was your daughter? or grandchild? It wasn't intentional, but it should be accountable.

I believe it should be child endangerment at most. Yes, this child is dead. Yes, it's due to the father's stupid decision, but murder?

As for your #1, that's an oxymoron to me. How can an intentional killing not be premeditated? You either intend to kill, or you don't. One shouldn't get to eat their cake and have it too. The very definition is ridiculous, IMO.

I'm sure you're more privy to the workings of your area than I am, but when I was young, there were many times we hoofed it when it was dangerous for automobiles to be on the streets.

[Senni]

I believe it should be child endangerment at most. Yes, this child is dead. Yes, it's due to the father's stupid decision, but murder?

As for your #1, that's an oxymoron to me. How can an intentional killing not be premeditated? You either intend to kill, or you don't. One shouldn't get to eat their cake and have it too. The very definition is ridiculous, IMO.

I'm sure you're more privy to the workings of your area than I am, but when I was young, there were many times we hoofed it when it was dangerous for automobiles to be on the streets.



Here is a better definition, off law texts. Second degree murder refers to murder that has occurred without it being pre-meditated. There was no element of planning in the murder. It also encompasses murder that has occurred because the murderer was exhibiting dangerous conduct but had no intention to kill. E.g. If the offender carries a loaded gun in a crowded market place, but did not have safety clasp in place. The gun inadvertently goes off and the bullet kills an innocent bystander. Most secondary murderers are not given the maximum penalty. Second degree murder is also assigned to crimes of passion. E.g. If the husband catches his wife in bed with another man and he kills either of them or both of them then it would be second degree murder in most countries.


It is being reported, that the sheriffs office was not called for 10 hrs after the dropoff. This father was 55, old enough to know better. The other guy was 55 too. It looks like they tried to search for her on their own, sad, this county has excellent search and rescue.

[LisaM22]

I'm not trying to argue with you, but the weather you looked up is for Jerome, which is 60 miles to the south. Look up Hailey, its closer. High were 19, wind chill is much lower my local Weatherbug had -14 windchill (when you are cold and wet this is a major factor) it also says heavy snow. Most major roads in this area were closed. A road running N to S about 10 miles west of this area they were in was closed for 2 days.

So if you don't think its 2nd degree murder ( Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion" or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life. Second-degree murder may best be viewed as the middle ground between first-degree murder and voluntary manslaughter.

What would you charge him with? Stupidity? What if it was your daughter? or grandchild? It wasn't intentional, but it should be accountable.

this was Hailey's weather on dec 25th, looks like it actually warmed up during the afternoon

http://www.wunderground.com/weatherstation/WXDailyHistory.asp?ID=KIDHAILE2&month=12&day=25&year=2008

I do not think this was murder, the mother said he was not a bad father, I think his car got stuck, he thought the house was closer then it was, and let the children walk as he tried to get the car out - I agree, it was dumb, he should of went and drove to the house to make sure they made it ok, but I do not think this should be classified as murder

[Senni]

http://www.magicvalley.com/articles/2008/12/30/news/top_story/151787.txt

http://www.mtexpress.com/vu_breaking_story.php?bid=6467

Glad both these parents aren't mine!

[LisaM22]

http://www.magicvalley.com/articles/2008/12/30/news/top_story/151787.txt

http://www.mtexpress.com/vu_breaking_story.php?bid=6467

Glad both these parents aren't mine!

hindsight is 20\20

[taylor63]

A father "allowed" his two children to walk to their mothers home, 10 miles in negative temperatures on Christmas Day. The boy, 12 yrs, survives, his younger sister 11, dies. He is in jail on charges of 2nd degree murder, and 2 counts of child endangerment.

story can be found here...http://www.magicvalley.com/articles/2008/12/29/news/top_story/151765.txt

I read about this tragic story on MSNBC,I thought it said the tempatures was 27 degrees there. I don't know all the details of this case so until I do I will reserve judgement. If the father loved this child,the worst punishment of all he will have to live with is his conscience. My heart goes out to everyone involved, most of all the little girl who lost her life.

[JD1974]

It was a stupid decision, there is no question about that, but I'm not sure prosecuting the father is the best plan of action here. Unless of course we'd find out he had any history of endangering his children's lives. I'd think the pain of causing your child's death would be more punishment that the judicial system could ever hand down.


You know I was thinking about what happened in this case. I truly wonder if the dad thought it would be safer to let them walk because who knows where the car was stuck? What if he had let them stay in the car and they froze to death before he could get help to get it out, would he still be charged? This is almost a damned if you do damned if you don't scenario.

[museumgirl]

Okay, reading further into it... I agree that the murder charge is too much. However, I clocked my drive home from work last night and it is less than five miles and that is a long walk for a kid in those conditions. I don't care if they were antsy for Xmas.... they would not have left me. I can tell you that. I'm sure the father is going through Hell, and will for the rest of his life, but so will his son and daughters mother..... how horrible.

Schools do not let kids go out to play for 15 minute recesses when it's below zero weather.... what made him think a 10 mile walk would have been okay????

[JD1974]

Too late to edit my post but I wanted to say that imo this is nothing like the parents who "forget" their kids in a car. I am trying to think of what I would do in this situation, stuck on a road (has to be out in the middle of nowhere for no cell reception) the odds of someone helping you to get out are pretty low especially with the weather the way it is, 2 adults are both needed to get the car out, one to push one to steer or both to push, who knows how much gas was in the vehicle, you use a lot trying to get it out. After a few hours of this if I am honest with myself I would probably think my kids would have a better chance walking, not the whole way of course but to some main road or area where there would be cars that I hope would either take them to their destination or at least call for help.

The comment about the great search and rescue team confuses me though, if they are really good and knew the area the little girl was walking why did it take 4 hrs to find her? She was 1.5 miles from where the father had to turn around, they knew in pretty good detail the area where this little girl should be found....

[JD1974]

Okay, reading further into it... I agree that the murder charge is too much. However, I clocked my drive home from work last night and it is less than five miles and that is a long walk for a kid in those conditions. I don't care if they were antsy for Xmas.... they would not have left me. I can tell you that. I'm sure the father is going through Hell, and will for the rest of his life, but so will his son and daughters mother..... how horrible.

Schools do not let kids go out to play for 15 minute recesses when it's below zero weather.... what made him think a 10 mile walk would have been okay????


I live in Michigan, the kids have to stay at the bus stop in below zero weather, if the bus is running late what then? Anyway I think he just reacted out of panic, he probably NEVER thought his children would be harmed.

[aubrey04]

this was Hailey's weather on dec 25th, looks like it actually warmed up during the afternoon

http://www.wunderground.com/weatherstation/WXDailyHistory.asp?ID=KIDHAILE2&month=12&day=25&year=2008

I do not think this was murder, the mother said he was not a bad father, I think his car got stuck, he thought the house was closer then it was, and let the children walk as he tried to get the car out - I agree, it was dumb, he should of went and drove to the house to make sure they made it ok, but I do not think this should be classified as murder

I agree. I think he probably thought the house was much closer than it actually was. There was no cellphone service and he got stuck.. It isn't like he just decided to let them walk to the house b/c he was lazy.. It was an emergency... He definitely shouldn't have let them walk there and he should have followed them after he got the car freed, but murder charges?

He's overcharged, imo. The man sounds devastated right now.

[Jayne]

The man should have left his car and walked with his children..that's my opinion. They were only 11 and 12...I may be overprotective of mine, but they wouldn't walk that distance in good weather without me or another adult.

Murder, though? No...I don't even see manslaughter - he didn't shove them out there and make them walk..or did he? But, child neglect, yes. And, as another poster said...Stupidity? You bet..but that's not a crime - yet.

[JD1974]

The only thing I think he did wrong, (and it's a big one) was not going after the kids once the car became unstuck.

Here he is, in the middle of nowhere with a stuck car and no way to communicate with rescuers. Having the children set out on foot - assuming it's correct on the weather website that the weather was an acceptable 26 or so with no wind - to go get help seems the thing to do. Better than sitting there, stuck, in the middle of nowhere and all freezing to death together.

Then, once he unstuck the car (about an hour after the kids left) he should have gone in their direction, found them and picked them up. That he KNEW they had 9 miles to walk, and were an hour into the hike - I can't understand why he just went home.


I also have a problem with that. If it is true that he thought the childrens mother was meeting them though then I don't know.

[Jayne]

The only thing I think he did wrong, (and it's a big one) was not going after the kids once the car became unstuck.

Here he is, in the middle of nowhere with a stuck car and no way to communicate with rescuers. Having the children set out on foot - assuming it's correct on the weather website that the weather was an acceptable 26 or so with no wind - to go get help seems the thing to do. Better than sitting there, stuck, in the middle of nowhere and all freezing to death together.

Then, once he unstuck the car (about an hour after the kids left) he should have gone in their direction, found them and picked them up. That he KNEW they had 9 miles to walk, and were an hour into the hike - I can't understand why he just went home.

I agree..just above I said he should have walked with them...but even if he didn't, yes..once the car was "unstuck" then go drive and pick them up and drive them to their mother. I don't get it either why he would just drive back home...9 miles for those kids..in cold wintry weather would take hours. How he couldn't be concerned for their safety by doing that, I just don't understand. Maybe they walked that distance before? knowing the way? Still...try to find them and make sure they made it..that would seem to be the responsible thing to do.

[koawally]

It's such a sad story. I don't feel the Father should be charged with murder. I don't understand why he didn't go look for them after the car was free but cultural differences I think play somewhat of a role.

I remember my siblings and I walking to church as a child every Sunday and it was 6 miles away. We went every Sunday and we always walked. Winters are harsh here in Canada. We would use a skipping rope to ensure we didn't loose anyone. It was a great adventure as a kid...times have certainly changed. My children were always driven everywhere.

I feel bad for this man. No doubt he will relive this nighmare and his poor desision which caused his daughters death over and over for the rest of his life. It's all just so sad!!

God Bless this child and this family

[NatalieB]

Here is a better definition, off law texts. Second degree murder refers to murder that has occurred without it being pre-meditated. There was no element of planning in the murder. It also encompasses murder that has occurred because the murderer was exhibiting dangerous conduct but had no intention to kill. E.g. If the offender carries a loaded gun in a crowded market place, but did not have safety clasp in place. The gun inadvertently goes off and the bullet kills an innocent bystander. Most secondary murderers are not given the maximum penalty. Second degree murder is also assigned to crimes of passion. E.g. If the husband catches his wife in bed with another man and he kills either of them or both of them then it would be second degree murder in most countries.


It is being reported, that the sheriffs office was not called for 10 hrs after the dropoff. This father was 55, old enough to know better. The other guy was 55 too. It looks like they tried to search for her on their own, sad, this county has excellent search and rescue.

Maybe you're right about your definition of 2nd degree murder, but I'd think more would be needed than simply carrying a loaded gun that happened to discharge. Now, carrying a loaded handgun and directly pointing it at someone, then it accidentally firing, IMO, would qualify as 2nd degree murder.

Alan Jackson also used a 2nd example to describe it in the Phil Spector trial. If you're standing over a bridge tossing large rocks down at motorists as they drive by and this causes one to wreck, and ultimately there is a loss of life, that too is defined as 2nd degree.

I'm not convinced sending a child out in this weather constitutes a murder, though. Yes, it's foolish, but the father probably just didn't think there was any danger along these lines. Yes, in hindsight, I'm sure he can see the grand picture now, but you have to go back to the situation at the time. He was stuck, and he knew the kids would be out in the weather anyway (though in the car, yeah the windchill wouldn't be the same), but it's all about state of mind and IMO, this one doesn't rise to murder.

As for your example of the husband catching the wife in bed, that would be charged in more cases than not, as manslaughter.

[NatalieB]

The man should have left his car and walked with his children..that's my opinion. They were only 11 and 12...I may be overprotective of mine, but they wouldn't walk that distance in good weather without me or another adult.

Murder, though? No...I don't even see manslaughter - he didn't shove them out there and make them walk..or did he? But, child neglect, yes. And, as another poster said...Stupidity? You bet..but that's not a crime - yet.

I think it's these boards that do it to us. :biggrin: We see all the bad in the world and are probably more panicky by nature. My kids are now 17 and 18 and could probably count on ONE hand the number of times they've been left home alone. I do think we're the exception to the rule though.

I can remember hoofing it miles to town by MYSELF at that age. Mostly I'd go with my brother, but if he didn't want to go, I certainly didn't stay home.

I agree that this doesn't even rise to the level of manslaughter.

[Jayne]

Maybe you're right about your definition of 2nd degree murder, but I'd think more would be needed than simply carrying a loaded gun that happened to discharge. Now, carrying a loaded handgun and directly pointing it at someone, then it accidentally firing, IMO, would qualify as 2nd degree murder.

Alan Jackson also used a 2nd example to describe it in the Phil Spector trial. If you're standing over a bridge tossing large rocks down at motorists as they drive by and this causes one to wreck, and ultimately there is a loss of life, that too is defined as 2nd degree.

I'm not convinced sending a child out in this weather constitutes a murder, though. Yes, it's foolish, but the father probably just didn't think there was any danger along these lines. Yes, in hindsight, I'm sure he can see the grand picture now, but you have to go back to the situation at the time. He was stuck, and he knew the kids would be out in the weather anyway (though in the car, yeah the windchill wouldn't be the same), but it's all about state of mind and IMO, this one doesn't rise to murder.

As for your example of the husband catching the wife in bed, that would be charged in more cases than not, as manslaughter.

In some states...NY for example Murder 1 is only if committed against a police officer, officer of the court. Murder 2 there is what Murder 1 is in many states - premeditated, lying in wait, planned, and most definitely "with malice".

Common Law and many states follow this. Murder 1 is premeditated, lying in wait, etc. Murder 2 is Heat of Passion, intentional but not premeditated, Reckless disregard for human life - as in PS...but CA writes their law differently as "malice implied". (I can't quote it, but I know of a state some years ago that had Murder 3..it was like an enhanced Manslaughter charge...cause I can't remember!) Manslaughter comes in different forms..vehicular..and involuntary and voluntary. Voluntary manslaughter in many states would be someone knowingly getting into a vehicle, drunk, driving (recklessly) and killing someone - the actual "intent" isn't there, but the recklessness in it makes it so. Involuntary would be, for example, in some states, losing control of your automobile and causing the death of someone, it's a negliegence factor but the "intent" isn't there, or stupidly having a rifle loaded (illegal) in the back of your car..pulling it out and it "goes off" and kills someone. There are so many statutes and some loopholes. But Heat of Passion is murder, it is not manslaughter. Murder has that "intent" element..Heat of Passion certainly has that Intent, even if just "in the heat of the moment", hence the tack put onto it.

Not being argumentative..just adding to the discussion..which those of you who "know me" know I write "too long posts"...so I stop it here!

[NatalieB]

In some states...NY for example Murder 1 is only if committed against a police officer, officer of the court. Murder 2 there is what Murder 1 is in many states - premeditated, lying in wait, planned, and most definitely "with malice".

Common Law and many states follow this. Murder 1 is premeditated, lying in wait, etc. Murder 2 is Heat of Passion, intentional but not premeditated, Reckless disregard for human life - as in PS...but CA writes their law differently as "malice implied". (I can't quote it, but I know of a state some years ago that had Murder 3..it was like an enhanced Manslaughter charge...cause I can't remember!) Manslaughter comes in different forms..vehicular..and involuntary and voluntary. Voluntary manslaughter in many states would be someone knowingly getting into a vehicle, drunk, driving (recklessly) and killing someone - the actual "intent" isn't there, but the recklessness in it makes it so. Involuntary would be, for example, in some states, losing control of your automobile and causing the death of someone, it's a negliegence factor but the "intent" isn't there, or stupidly having a rifle loaded (illegal) in the back of your car..pulling it out and it "goes off" and kills someone. There are so many statutes and some loopholes. But Heat of Passion is murder, it is not manslaughter. Murder has that "intent" element..Heat of Passion certainly has that Intent, even if just "in the heat of the moment", hence the tack put onto it.

Not being argumentative..just adding to the discussion..which those of you who "know me" know I write "too long posts"...so I stop it here!

Long posts? From you? NEVER! LOL I have a tendency to not keep them pithy myself.

While the courts can interpret laws how they see fit and states definitely define their own law, I have never seen a killing in the heat of passion not reduced to manslaughter.

I thought these links were a bit interesting.
Columbia Encyclopedia: manslaughter,
homicide committed without justification or excuse but distinguished from murder by the absence of the element of malice aforethought. Modern criminal statutes usually divide it into degrees, the most common distinction being between voluntary and involuntary manslaughter. Voluntary manslaughter is a killing done in the heat of passion provoked by acts of the victim such as to cause a reasonable man to act rashly and without reflection. Such provocation may include violent assault and an unlawful attempt to arrest him, but not mere insulting words or gestures. Involuntary manslaughter is a killing in which there is no intention to kill at all. It occurs when the killing is the result of the commission of a crime that is neither a felony nor an act likely to cause great bodily harm or when it is the result of a lawful act done in a criminal manner, e.g., a case of negligence. The advent of the automobile caused many manslaughter cases that arise from reckless and careless driving; in the statutes of some states of the United States such killing is a separate crime.
http://www.answers.com/topic/manslaughter

Heat of Passion
A finding that a person who killed another acted in the heat of passion will reduce murder to Manslaughter under certain circumstances. The essential prerequisites for such a reduction are that the accused must be provoked to a point of great anger or rage, such that the person loses his or her normal capacity for self-control; the circumstances must be such that a reasonable person, faced with the same degree of provocation, would react in a similar manner; and finally, there must not have been an opportunity for the accused to have "cooled off" or regained self-control during the period between the provocation and the killing.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/heat+of+passion

EDIT: I'm in PA and know many other state's laws better than my own, but since my kids are in youth and law, I know PA is a state that separates laws where an automobile is involved.

[JD1974]

I think it's these boards that do it to us. :biggrin: We see all the bad in the world and are probably more panicky by nature. My kids are now 17 and 18 and could probably count on ONE hand the number of times they've been left home alone. I do think we're the exception to the rule though.

I can remember hoofing it miles to town by MYSELF at that age. Mostly I'd go with my brother, but if he didn't want to go, I certainly didn't stay home.

I agree that this doesn't even rise to the level of manslaughter.


I wonder what people do if they don't have a car and have to go somewhere in that kind of weather? Sit and wait until something possibly worse happens or walk into town to get the fix for the problem. I have no idea how many times my grandparents gave me the "I had to walk 2 miles to school no matter what the weather was" when I wanted a ride to the store or something.

I used to walk to school in horrendous weather, I lived almost in the UP in Michigan. The difference is I was dressed appropriately, these kids were in a car. I wonder what they were wearing when they set off walking? I did see the boy who survived had thermal underwear on?

[StillEG]

In some states...NY for example Murder 1 is only if committed against a police officer, officer of the court. Murder 2 there is what Murder 1 is in many states - premeditated, lying in wait, planned, and most definitely "with malice".

<snip>
I think there are aggrevating circumstances that can make murder of someone other than an officer or state employee a first degree offense.


http://deathpenalty.procon.org/viewresource.asp?resourceID=1426

[museumgirl]

If they were riding in the car, they probably didn't have snowpants and boots and such on.... I would assume. My kids don't always put all their stuff on if we're traveling in the car.

I agree he should have walked with them... ten miles is a long way... whether you've walked it or not... weather really changes things. Wind makes it way colder and slows you down... if they were only in shoes once their feet got cold, they would walk slower as well.

My original thoughts were that he was overly careless. While I agree he still used poor judgement by letting them walk (or not letting them take the cell phone) and not going after them after he got the car out... I do not believe he should be charged w/murder or manslaughter....

[JD1974]

If they were riding in the car, they probably didn't have snowpants and boots and such on.... I would assume. My kids don't always put all their stuff on if we're traveling in the car.

I agree he should have walked with them... ten miles is a long way... whether you've walked it or not... weather really changes things. Wind makes it way colder and slows you down... if they were only in shoes once their feet got cold, they would walk slower as well.

My original thoughts were that he was overly careless. While I agree he still used poor judgement by letting them walk (or not letting them take the cell phone) and not going after them after he got the car out... I do not believe he should be charged w/murder or manslaughter....


I agree. Hindsight is 20/20, woulda, coulda, shoulda only applies after the fact. This guy has to be devastated over what happened.

[Jayne]

I think there are aggrevating circumstances that can make murder of someone other than an officer or state employee a first degree offense.


http://deathpenalty.procon.org/viewresource.asp?resourceID=1426

yes..I was just stating the law of NY..which is a "rare" situation...there Murder 1 is only that..Murder 2 in NY is what Murder 1 is in most states.. It's just the "wording"..the sentences aren't all that different. It just puts someone who murders a police officer, etc. automatically in Murder 1. If not that..then Murder 2..but the outcome won't be much different..it makes the "burden of proof" a bit more manageable..if that makes any sense..and maybe it isn't fair..but I'm not going to argue that.

[NatalieB]

Here is a bit of information pulled from the 1 links posted above by, Senni.

First link:

A timeline to tragedy

Dec. 25

9 a.m. - Vehicle became stuck in a snowdrift along West Magic Road, less than a mile from the Idaho Highway 75 turnoff, according to the Blaine County Sheriff's Office.

10:30 to 11 a.m. - Children start walking, according to their uncle and passenger, Kenneth Quintana.

12 to 1 p.m. - The vehicle is unstuck, according to Quintana.

1 to 2 p.m. - Children's mom, JoLeta Jenks, calls Aragon saying kids haven't arrived, according to Quintana. Aragon and Quintana drive back to where the children began walking and go on foot to look for them, according to the Blaine County Sheriff's Office.

7 p.m. - A friend of Jenks calls police saying the kids are missing. A Blaine County deputy and a snow plow head out to look for the kids, but they too become stuck after hitting a snow drift and slide off the road, according to the BCSO.

8:30 p.m. - Blaine County Search and Rescue set up on West Magic Road, one mile from the Highway 75, with one vehicle and two snowmobile teams, according to the BCSO.

Also, Quintana says he and Aragon stop their search for the children and meet up with police.

9:50 p.m. - The male child, Bear Aragon, is found in a Bureau of Land Management bathroom, near the intersection of West Magic Road and the Magic Dam Road in Camas County, 4.5 miles from where he began walking. He had hypothermia and was wearing only long underwear, having discarded his jacket, pants and shoes.

10:20 p.m. - Search dogs are deployed to look for the female child, Sage Aragon. The plan was to search from where Bear Aragon was found, back east towards Highway 75, after the boy told authorities he and his sister split up and she walked back to her dad's car.

Dec. 26

2 a.m. - Sage is found unconscious and hypothermic next to a barbed wire fence on the south side of West Magic Road, mostly covered in snow and barely visible. She was wearing a down coat, black shirt, pajama pants and snow boots, according to the BCSO.

4:15 a.m. - Sage is pronounced dead at St. Luke's Wood River Medical Center, according to the BCSO.

2nd link and these are pulled randomly:

"She was mostly covered with windblown snow and was barely visible," the sheriff's office reported in a press release. "She was still wearing her brown down coat, black shirt, pink pajama pants and tan snow boots. Sage was unconscious and hypothermic."

According to the sheriff's office, temperatures in the area at the time the girl was missing ranged from 27 degrees above zero to minus 5 degrees.

In the time line above, it appears lots of details are missing about the father trying to find the children. It doesn't appear that he simply went on home as if nothing had occurred.

[NatalieB]

Here was a bit more from the first link that I thought was important.

Lincoln County authorities also say the road was undriveable due to snow drifts, according to court papers.

Quinatana sobbed Monday over a phone line, while repeatedly defending Aragon.

"He didn't send those kids out there to die," said Quintana. "He just wanted their mother to spend Christmas with them."

Quintana says he and Aragon searched and yelled out for the children for at least four hours, with towels wrapped around their heads, but they stopped as hypothermia set in. He said he had no cell phone reception in the search area.

'They found her (Sage Aragon) a mile and a half from where I turned around," Quintana said. "If we had kept going, we could have gotten her in time. I just couldn't go anymore, I was so tired. The whole time, we were yelling for the children, our eyes and throat were wind burnt."

[StillEG]

yes..I was just stating the law of NY..which is a "rare" situation...there Murder 1 is only that..Murder 2 in NY is what Murder 1 is in most states.. It's just the "wording"..the sentences aren't all that different. It just puts someone who murders a police officer, etc. automatically in Murder 1. If not that..then Murder 2..but the outcome won't be much different..it makes the "burden of proof" a bit more manageable..if that makes any sense..and maybe it isn't fair..but I'm not going to argue that.

The link is to New York law. I thought the guy that murdered his therapist earlier this year in NY was charged with first degree... convicted of it too?http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/02/22/meat.cleaver/index.html

[Jayne]

The link is to New York law. I thought the guy that murdered his therapist earlier this year in NY was charged with first degree... convicted of it too?http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/02/22/meat.cleaver/index.html

then I guess the law has changed...hmmm...so much for 10 years out..

you got it..thanks for the update..

[StillEG]

then I guess the law has changed...hmmm...so much for 10 years out..

you got it..thanks for the update..

Wasn't trying to do a 'gotcha' I just thought I'd heard of first degree charges there? :wink:

[jessie50]

The kids probably had warm winter clothes in the car even if they weren't wearing them while the car was moving. :unsure:

[momof6]

The girl had on pajama pants (how cold )! Definately not what you wear to walk 8 miles in the snow in. One of the men should have walked with them. What if a crazy person picked them up.

[museumgirl]

Why assume they had their other clothes in the car???? Rather than hauling all that crap back and forth normally parents have a set of stuff @ each house (at least the parents I know) allows for less hauling and less chance of things being forgotten as well.

[jessie50]

Why assume they had their other clothes in the car???? Rather than hauling all that crap back and forth normally parents have a set of stuff @ each house (at least the parents I know) allows for less hauling and less chance of things being forgotten as well.

I guess because when I was in Wisconsin we always had warm clothes is the car in case of an emergency as did everyone I know of. We also had a coffee can with a candle in it, matches, shovels, sand, food and water.

[Jayne]

Wasn't trying to do a 'gotcha' I just thought I'd heard of first degree charges there? :wink:

it's ok...like I said...I didn't take it as an offense..it was a thread of discussion!

I just put a letter out to my Former Boss...to ask for a new updated NY Penal Law Code...just for my edification..since I don't live there or practice there anymore! Believe it or not, I used to know it pretty much cover to cover...that was 15 years ago!

I do thank you for the update!

[aubrey04]

Here is a bit of information pulled from the 1 links posted above by, Senni.

First link:

A timeline to tragedy

Dec. 25

9 a.m. - Vehicle became stuck in a snowdrift along West Magic Road, less than a mile from the Idaho Highway 75 turnoff, according to the Blaine County Sheriff's Office.

10:30 to 11 a.m. - Children start walking, according to their uncle and passenger, Kenneth Quintana.

12 to 1 p.m. - The vehicle is unstuck, according to Quintana.

1 to 2 p.m. - Children's mom, JoLeta Jenks, calls Aragon saying kids haven't arrived, according to Quintana. Aragon and Quintana drive back to where the children began walking and go on foot to look for them, according to the Blaine County Sheriff's Office.

7 p.m. - A friend of Jenks calls police saying the kids are missing. A Blaine County deputy and a snow plow head out to look for the kids, but they too become stuck after hitting a snow drift and slide off the road, according to the BCSO.

8:30 p.m. - Blaine County Search and Rescue set up on West Magic Road, one mile from the Highway 75, with one vehicle and two snowmobile teams, according to the BCSO.

Also, Quintana says he and Aragon stop their search for the children and meet up with police.

9:50 p.m. - The male child, Bear Aragon, is found in a Bureau of Land Management bathroom, near the intersection of West Magic Road and the Magic Dam Road in Camas County, 4.5 miles from where he began walking. He had hypothermia and was wearing only long underwear, having discarded his jacket, pants and shoes.

10:20 p.m. - Search dogs are deployed to look for the female child, Sage Aragon. The plan was to search from where Bear Aragon was found, back east towards Highway 75, after the boy told authorities he and his sister split up and she walked back to her dad's car.

Dec. 26

2 a.m. - Sage is found unconscious and hypothermic next to a barbed wire fence on the south side of West Magic Road, mostly covered in snow and barely visible. She was wearing a down coat, black shirt, pajama pants and snow boots, according to the BCSO.

4:15 a.m. - Sage is pronounced dead at St. Luke's Wood River Medical Center, according to the BCSO.

2nd link and these are pulled randomly:

"She was mostly covered with windblown snow and was barely visible," the sheriff's office reported in a press release. "She was still wearing her brown down coat, black shirt, pink pajama pants and tan snow boots. Sage was unconscious and hypothermic."

According to the sheriff's office, temperatures in the area at the time the girl was missing ranged from 27 degrees above zero to minus 5 degrees.

In the time line above, it appears lots of details are missing about the father trying to find the children. It doesn't appear that he simply went on home as if nothing had occurred.

Natalie,

Thanks for breaking down the timeline. I completely agree with your post. I do not think the man should be charged at all. In the beginning, I thought maybe child neglect or child endangerment but not anymore. This was an emergency.. cellphones were down.. car was stuck..took hours to get the car unstuck.. It sounds like the lines of communication were fractured between the Aragon and the childrens mother.

What a mess. Did you guys watch that video of the man in court? He was shaking and hitting his head against the table. I don't think that man will ever forgive himself for what happened.

Unless they have more proof and evidence to support the second degree murder charge - I hope the charges end up being dropped. I hope some high profile lawyer in the area takes up the case for this man - he doesn't look like he comes from very much money.

[aubrey04]

I wonder what people do if they don't have a car and have to go somewhere in that kind of weather? Sit and wait until something possibly worse happens or walk into town to get the fix for the problem. I have no idea how many times my grandparents gave me the "I had to walk 2 miles to school no matter what the weather was" when I wanted a ride to the store or something.

I used to walk to school in horrendous weather, I lived almost in the UP in Michigan. The difference is I was dressed appropriately, these kids were in a car. I wonder what they were wearing when they set off walking? I did see the boy who survived had thermal underwear on?

Yeah, I got that from my dad too. He used to constantly talk about walking miles to school in the snow.. mainly because I was a brat and never wanted to ride the bus home from school... so I'd ask for a ride from my parents all the time.. and that's the line I got.

[NatalieB]

Yeah, I got that from my dad too. He used to constantly talk about walking miles to school in the snow.. mainly because I was a brat and never wanted to ride the bus home from school... so I'd ask for a ride from my parents all the time.. and that's the line I got.

My FIL tells the same tale, BUT, with a slight twist.

He walked miles to school each day, UPHILL both ways. :biggrin:

[JD1974]

Natalie,

Thanks for breaking down the timeline. I completely agree with your post. I do not think the man should be charged at all. In the beginning, I thought maybe child neglect or child endangerment but not anymore. This was an emergency.. cellphones were down.. car was stuck..took hours to get the car unstuck.. It sounds like the lines of communication were fractured between the Aragon and the childrens mother.

What a mess. Did you guys watch that video of the man in court? He was shaking and hitting his head against the table. I don't think that man will ever forgive himself for what happened.

Unless they have more proof and evidence to support the second degree murder charge - I hope the charges end up being dropped. I hope some high profile lawyer in the area takes up the case for this man - he doesn't look like he comes from very much money.

I now take back what I said about it bothering me that the father didn't try to determine where his kids were and just went home...he searched for HOURS! This whole thing is so sad, I don't think he should be charged.

[JD1974]

My FIL tells the same tale, BUT, with a slight twist.

He walked miles to school each day, UPHILL both ways. :biggrin:


Mine couldn't do that with me, I know where they grew up and it is as flat as a pancake LOL

[JD1974]

The girl had on pajama pants (how cold )! Definately not what you wear to walk 8 miles in the snow in. One of the men should have walked with them. What if a crazy person picked them up.



I just watched the news report, it said the girl was wearing pink pants, where did you hear she had pajamas on?


I almost cried when I watched the dad in court, jesus how devastating.

[Jayne]

I just watched the news report, it said the girl was wearing pink pants, where did you hear she had pajamas on?


I almost cried when I watched the dad in court, jesus how devastating.


it's on one of the media reports...she had on pink pajama bottoms...

not pants..

[LindaNJ1216]

I couldn't convict him if I were on that jury. This dad will pay for his mistake for the rest of his life............

[ExArkie]

I couldn't convict him if I were on that jury. This dad will pay for his mistake for the rest of his life............

Yes, I agree! Prosecutors do throw the "M" word around a lot nowadays!!

[n/t]

He should be charged with child endangerment. Murder is too extreme.

It didn't matter whether his car was stuck or not or whatever. You do NOT let your two underage children walk alone in sub zero temperatures in blowing snow conditions. He should've kept the children in the car and the other adult should've gone to seek help. PERIOD.

Car was stuck right? It wasn't out of gas? The kids could've stayed in the car with the car running while they tried to either get it out of the snow bank or one of them could've gone to get help but the children would've been warm inside that car with heaters running. The little girl would still be alive.

It's appalling. There's no excuse and I hope this is a lesson to other parents.

[n/t]

it's on one of the media reports...she had on pink pajama bottoms...

not pants..


I heard the same thing. She had pajama bottoms.

Those poor kids. :rose:

[NatalieB]

The links above say she was wearing a black skirt and pink PJ bottoms. I think she probably had the skirt on, but wore the PJ to keep warm till she got to her mothers where she'd probably planned on removing them.

I wouldn't convict this man, either. I hope the DA reads internet threads because if this one is any indication of public opinion, he/she has to see how difficult it will be to get a conviction on this one. It's not going to happen, IMO. They should just save the town the expense of a trial and allow this guy to start serving his life sentence. And unfortunately, this is already a life sentence. :(

[Senni]

He should be charged with child endangerment. Murder is too extreme.

It didn't matter whether his car was stuck or not or whatever. You do NOT let your two underage children walk alone in sub zero temperatures in blowing snow conditions. He should've kept the children in the car and the other adult should've gone to seek help. PERIOD.

Car was stuck right? It wasn't out of gas? The kids could've stayed in the car with the car running while they tried to either get it out of the snow bank or one of them could've gone to get help but the children would've been warm inside that car with heaters running. The little girl would still be alive.

It's appalling. There's no excuse and I hope this is a lesson to other parents.


Totally agree. And remember folks, this man lives approx 50 miles from this turnoff, after he got the car unstuck, even without cell service he drove through the town of Shoshone. (pay phones, usually someone is open there because of the state highway offices are there) He got home and still didn't call mom, she calls him, and sure, he had another hour back to look for them. Also look on the Times News comments, that road is not a priority road, it was drifted shut, the road crews were not out because of a blizzard watch. This county has excellent search and rescue, but in that area it is probably 10 miles by 10 miles where there is nothing. The sage brush can be 6 feet tall and with the snow at 2 feet she could have been anywhere. Its been awhile since I've drove that way, I know there is a river channel there too. This isn't a farm field all flat and smooth, its gullies and big sagebrush etc, and it was dark at 5ish. The search and rescue should have been called the minute both parents realized the kids were lost, not after 5 hours of looking by themselves. (not to mention they got too cold and had to call). I think the charge will be lowered, I don't think it should be, 1) he should have never let them out of his sight, they should have stayed with him and if the car was stuck they stayed, kids told that its impossible to get there and taken home again. 2) being fair, if he thought they could make it, he should have went with them, sounds if both parents were agreeable with each other it wouldn't have been a problem if he got the kids to her house, warmed up and went back to the car. 3) he and his friend seemed in an awful hurry to get home to Jerome, not stopping and calling to check at any time. 4) mom's at fault for not contacting police the minute she knew they were walking. with the drifts etc, they would have come at 2 and plowed and possibly found them a whole lot sooner than allowing dad to fumble around for 4 hours. And both parents have lived in the area for awhile, most people check road reports either by phone or internet, dress appropriately or stay home. When the weather reports say hazardous weather, blizzard warnings is anywhere so important to be at that it risks you and your childrens lives. Hindsight my butt, when you are dealing with little children and bad weather and 10 miles of walking, your immediate thought should be NO...just like not letting them play in the street.

[Senni]

You can end up with carbon monoxide poisoning sitting in a running car that is partially covered with snow.

It's not clear whether any of them would have still been alive if they sent a man (the dad is 55, who knows how old and in what condition the Uncle is in?) to go get help while the one man stayed behind and tried to unstick the car. It's not clear - at all - that one man alone could get the car unstuck, and it certainly would be a mistake to put your kids in a running car without a completely clear and free exhaust pipe.

BTW, the temperature wasn't sub-zero. It was about 30 degrees.

The wind chill is the factor, I live 20 miles from there, directly east on that day at 1pm the temperature was 28 degrees, and the wind was 14 mph. according to the NWS that temp is 19 degrees. (I use weatherbug) the wind here is the big factor along with cold. As the day progressed it got colder with more wind.

And you have to think, you have to uncover the tail pipe, if they aren't smart enough to know that, they shouldn't be driving in the winter.

[n/t]

You can end up with carbon monoxide poisoning sitting in a running car that is partially covered with snow.

It's not clear whether any of them would have still been alive if they sent a man (the dad is 55, who knows how old and in what condition the Uncle is in?) to go get help while the one man stayed behind and tried to unstick the car. It's not clear - at all - that one man alone could get the car unstuck, and it certainly would be a mistake to put your kids in a running car without a completely clear and free exhaust pipe.

BTW, the temperature wasn't sub-zero. It was about 30 degrees.


On HLN they said it was subzero so that's what I'm basing it on. I wasn't there.

Yes of course there's the risk of carbon monoxide but how stupid is this dad to not even know that much.

Nevermind. I think the fact that he sent his two kids on their own in bitter cold weather and one died of hypothermia tells me he's missing a screw up there, imo.

As with any tragedy, a lesson is learned....or not.

[n/t]

The wind chill is the factor, I live 20 miles from there, directly east on that day at 1pm the temperature was 28 degrees, and the wind was 14 mph. according to the NWS that temp is 19 degrees. (I use weatherbug) the wind here is the big factor along with cold. As the day progressed it got colder with more wind.

And you have to think, you have to uncover the tail pipe, if they aren't smart enough to know that, they shouldn't be driving in the winter.

She froze to death so that alone is evidence. It's winter!!! I also agree with your last paragraph and posted same before I saw your post.

[n/t]

Why do people keep posting that the temperatures were sub-zero?

They weren't. They were near the freezing point, near 32 degrees.

Because that's what's being reported. Even if it was like you say 32 degrees, so what? The poor child froze to death.

[n/t]

Totally agree. And remember folks, this man lives approx 50 miles from this turnoff, after he got the car unstuck, even without cell service he drove through the town of Shoshone. (pay phones, usually someone is open there because of the state highway offices are there) He got home and still didn't call mom, she calls him, and sure, he had another hour back to look for them. Also look on the Times News comments, that road is not a priority road, it was drifted shut, the road crews were not out because of a blizzard watch. This county has excellent search and rescue, but in that area it is probably 10 miles by 10 miles where there is nothing. The sage brush can be 6 feet tall and with the snow at 2 feet she could have been anywhere. Its been awhile since I've drove that way, I know there is a river channel there too. This isn't a farm field all flat and smooth, its gullies and big sagebrush etc, and it was dark at 5ish. The search and rescue should have been called the minute both parents realized the kids were lost, not after 5 hours of looking by themselves. (not to mention they got too cold and had to call). I think the charge will be lowered, I don't think it should be, 1) he should have never let them out of his sight, they should have stayed with him and if the car was stuck they stayed, kids told that its impossible to get there and taken home again. 2) being fair, if he thought they could make it, he should have went with them, sounds if both parents were agreeable with each other it wouldn't have been a problem if he got the kids to her house, warmed up and went back to the car. 3) he and his friend seemed in an awful hurry to get home to Jerome, not stopping and calling to check at any time. 4) mom's at fault for not contacting police the minute she knew they were walking. with the drifts etc, they would have come at 2 and plowed and possibly found them a whole lot sooner than allowing dad to fumble around for 4 hours. And both parents have lived in the area for awhile, most people check road reports either by phone or internet, dress appropriately or stay home. When the weather reports say hazardous weather, blizzard warnings is anywhere so important to be at that it risks you and your childrens lives. Hindsight my butt, when you are dealing with little children and bad weather and 10 miles of walking, your immediate thought should be NO...just like not letting them play in the street.

Excellent post and I totally agree. I wonder what his blood alchohol level was. :closedeyes:

[n/t]

If she had on pajama bottoms, it clearly was not subzero temperatures like you refer to in your above post. This was not a toddler that would be still being dressed by dad.

The temperature was thirty, who knows how much gas was in the vehicle, they may have left the car running. I am sure both young children were not only restless but also frustrated after an hour or more, first reports said they started walking at noon and subsequent reports put it at 10:30 so it could fall anywhere between the two.

Yes this is a tragic accident but this father should not be charged any more than the relative who let the six year old ride on top of luggage at the MIA. Or the senator from Wisconsin who backed over his granddaughter. He should have been charged, that is not an accident, running over your grandchildren with your own vehicle.

http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/8495957.html

He had enough gas to unstick himself. I'd rather have restless kids than dead ones.

[n/t]

they father did NOT force them to walk..........and why didn't their mother come get them?


Are you saying children that age can make rational decisions? Are we forgetting who's the adult here or what?

I don't know why the mom didn't go get them. According to the timeline, apparently the dad goes back to look for them so maybe she thought he was going to find them safe and sound.

=====

12 to 1 p.m. - The vehicle is unstuck, according to Quintana.

1 to 2 p.m. - Children's mom, JoLeta Jenks, calls Aragon saying kids haven't arrived, according to Quintana. Aragon and Quintana drive back to where the children began walking and go on foot to look for them, according to the Blaine County Sheriff's Office.

[NatalieB]

More and more information keeps coming out, but all in all, I still don't see a murder or even a manslaughter charge here. I also don't think terming this child negligence should raise it to even a manslaughter charge (though technically, it probably could). I don't think there is any way in hell they'd ever get a conviction on murder 2. I think it was way overcharged. Maybe they're hoping he accepts a plea, but I'm sorry, our prisons are over crowded enough as it is. Let him go and hold a violent offender longer.

Oh, and while I think LE should have been called right away, the father rushed back to the area and upon returning home and hearing from mom (I guess it's an hour each way out). He did not have cell service to call for help at that point (I'm talking when he made it back to where he and the children separated). He probably figured he'd go find them himself. I think that's exactly what I'd have done in that situation, thinking I could find them myself (though technically, I wouldn't have allowed my children at their current ages, 17 and 18, to leave my side). When he realized he needed help, he probably didn't have the ability to call for it at that point. Remember, they were walking, looking for the kids because the road was not passable (at least that's the way I read it). I tend to think that's probably true and backed by the fact that after 4 hours of looking, with hypothermia starting to set in for the dad and uncle, they turned back (not making it the extra 1 1/2 miles to where the child was eventually found).

Stupid, yes. Criminal, I'm not convinced.

I've been following the Anthony case out of Orlando, and that case to this one is as different as day in night in regards to the criminal and unacceptable behaviors on display. It's obvious to me that this man loved his daughter and is truly suffering and wishing he'd have made another decision.

[NatalieB]

they father did NOT force them to walk..........and why didn't their mother come get them?

She said she doesn't have a car.

[n/t]

no i'm NOT saying it should have been the childs decision. i'm just saying i think Murder charges are just a little bit too much. I can't wait to find out if the mother knew they were walking or not. If she didn't don't you think she should be charged also?

I agree that murder charge is outrageous but he should be charged with child endangerment but then again, we don't know the whole story and only what's being reported. There must be a reason for them to slap a murder charge on him. We'll see.

Apparently the mom only knew after the car gets unstuck which is 2 hours later (approximately), according to the timeline posted on this thread. The father allegedly goes back to look for them so I'm guessing she thought he'd find them.

Why they waited until 7 pm to advise authorities is beyond me. And why would a "friend" call?

=====

7 p.m. - A friend of Jenks calls police saying the kids are missing. A Blaine County deputy and a snow plow head out to look for the kids, but they too become stuck after hitting a snow drift and slide off the road, according to the BCSO.

[n/t]

This story isn't making sense - the pieces aren't adding up.

Why is Kenneth Quintana's story so different from what is being reported in the media? Kenneth is stating that he left also, in the opposite direction, to go seek help? Why isn't that figuring into the media story? Why do these two men think the mother is driving toward them? Why would she do that, even if she has a car - which she does not? Who drives toward people who are driving toward them, in hopes they will encounter one another along the way? Why would he say that - what seems very obviously made up?

Why is there a three hour discrepancy in times when the children began their walk - between 9 a.m. and noon? Why do some media outlets still say the kids were "dropped off"? They weren't dropped off.

I think there are huge chunks of information missing here, that will become clear later that make this story impossible to understand.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/crime/2008/12/30/id.blizzard.death.charges.kmvt


I think there's more to the story than what's being reported.

[NatalieB]

I think reporters often get it wrong. So while we can use it as a guide, I don't think we should take anything reported on as the actual gospel, be it this case or any other.

[LisaM22]

I think reporters often get it wrong. So while we can use it as a guide, I don't think we should take anything reported on as the actual gospel, be it this case or any other.

I agree, the first article said the mother called the police, so sounds like the media is running with un-confirmed information right now, sure much of it is true, but not all correct

[lisafremont]

When I first heard of this story I imagined that the father walked with the children and one died. Then I read the rest of the story and learned the circumstances of the outrageous conduct by this father, a mature man who supposedly knew better and cared.

He sent the children but stayed behind? He never phoned the mother to inform her they were walking??

This is horrendous! He deserves a charge, if not second degree murder then negligent homicide. But not a slap on the wrist with that ridiculous notion that her death is a greater punishment. Peh on that!! He is totally responsible. But for his actions she would be alive today.

[n/t]

Well, this is interesting....the caption on the video reads:


Police: Dad forced daughter on deadly snow walk


I think the truth will slowly start to come out. Thankfully the boy is still alive and can tell what really happened.

Also, interesting....

Records show Aragon was convicted in February for misdemeanor drug possession. In 1994, he was found guilty of drug possession with the intent to deliver or manufacture.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081231/ap_on_re_us/hypothermia_death


Father of the Year.:angry:

[Senni]

Well, this is interesting....the caption on the video reads:


Police: Dad forced daughter on deadly snow walk


I think the truth will slowly start to come out. Thankfully the boy is still alive and can tell what really happened.

Also, interesting....

Records show Aragon was convicted in February for misdemeanor drug possession. In 1994, he was found guilty of drug possession with the intent to deliver or manufacture.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081231/ap_on_re_us/hypothermia_death


Father of the Year.:angry:

I agree, there is way more to this. Try looking up both Kenneth S Quintana (29) and Robert E Aragon (55), I don't think I'd want my kids with either. https://www.idcourts.us/repository/start.do

And before everyone starts with people change, uh huh. I think the 4 hours looking was spent getting sober.

[Spyder88]

I agree, there is way more to this. Try looking up both Kenneth S Quintana (29) and Robert E Aragon (55), I don't think I'd want my kids with either. https://www.idcourts.us/repository/start.do

And before everyone starts with people change, uh huh. I think the 4 hours looking was spent getting sober.

ITA

This guy needs to have the proverbial book thrown at him, IMHO. Lucky for him it wasn't two of mine he sent off walking 10 miles to freeze to death.

It simply does NOT take a genius to know that you don't let two kids go off walking alone on some snow-drifted roads. Seriously...just giving it a modecum of thought...who would even consider such a thing, let alone watch your children disappear into some cold horizon while you dig yourself out of the ditch??? Not to mention the dangers of child abductions!

THEN, once he's dug out, he doesn't even try to go pick them up??? :confused:

This whole thing just reeks and is enough to make a person's skin crawl. I honestly couldn't care less if this guy never see's the light of day again.

Those poor little kids. :sad: What a horrendous way to die.

[TealMermaid]

Perhaps he judged wrong and believed he broke down much closer than he actually was?

Geeesh...I can't believe when he got his car back on the road he didn't drive the last 10 miles to check on them or call

very very sad...and stupid

That's the part that bothers me. You think he would have drove to the Mom's house, in case they were still walking, or at least called once he got cell service back.:confused:

[n/t]

and while this may very well turn out to be true, the hour they got stuck does not really jive well. Even the worst alcoholics usually are not drunk at 9am. And if it was binge drinking from the night before, that would wear off by 9am.

They will be able to use retrograde extrapolation to determine if he had been indeed drinking prior to getting stuck and if this even played a role in his getting stuck in the first place.

Bolded....

You have got to be kidding me?

With that said, it may not have been alcohol. It could have been drugs or both!

We now know he was convicted in February for misdemeanor drug possession. In 1994, he was found guilty of drug possession with the intent to deliver or manufacture.


IMO, he sent his children to their deaths. Thankfully, one survived but I can't even imagine the horror the boy went through.

This creep falls in the same category as Casey Anthony, imo. It may not have been the same crime but he put their childrens lives at risk and one of them lost.

[n/t]

I think there is something to what you say. It just doesn't make any sense, the details as they are. I don't think anyone would charge him with murder if his story was believed by LE. Also, Kenneth Quintana is coming up with details that are so different from the main story. . .

I wonder, though, whether Bear is able to remember coherently. He apparently suffered hypothermia dementia, and may not have an accurate memory of the morning.


He remembered enough to tell his mom this:

"(Bear) kept on telling her: "Let's go, Sage, let's go, Sage",' Jenks said, recalling what her son told her. 'Sage said, "No, I'm going back".'


I truly believe these kids were FORCED to walk and that's coming out now in the reports.

[n/t]

I agree, there is way more to this. Try looking up both Kenneth S Quintana (29) and Robert E Aragon (55), I don't think I'd want my kids with either. https://www.idcourts.us/repository/start.do

And before everyone starts with people change, uh huh. I think the 4 hours looking was spent getting sober.


Yup, I posted something similar yesterday. I wondered what his blood alcohol level was but now I'm wondering if he was so high on drugs that he didn't even realize WTH he did with his kids.

UGH!

[Jayne]

I think the mother is being "too kind"...sorry, but I do.

Why the father had custody...doesn't really matter, I suppose..but there must be something that I/we aren't finding out..my guess is that the mother didn't have the resources to take care of them (or maybe she has had her own problems)...It seems she and her children are Native Americans...the area they were walking to..I don't know..but it sounds like a "reservation" of sorts...please inform me if anyone knows...I've seen the video with him (I posted a wrong one...sorry...yesterday...and I can't figure out how to post the newest one..with him on it..it's on yahoo)..and I suspect he is also either full Native American or at least in his heritage. Who knows the dynamics of that relationship between him..her..the children.

But to allow or send those kids out in that weather and that little girl in pajama pants...is worse than stupid. I was giving credit for Stupidity..saying it wasn't murder...I still don't think it amounts to that, but certainly Child Endangerment and yes..maybe so..manslaughter. To NOT drive up that road and look for them after dug out is eggregious negligence...which I'd say rises to manslaughter.

If he..or she..or the children can fall under Federal Law, this man is in big trouble. Again, I don't know the situation or area and if it is "federal authority/law".

I just can't imagine this...that he'd allow (or tell) his children to walk off toward mom's home...9-10 miles..in that weather...in that clothing..and AT THEIR AGE. I guess, as I've said before, I am overly protective of my own..but they wouldn't walk alone in Good Weather. I'd be right by their side and lie on top of them to keep them warm, if necessary. Why couldn't he have dug out his car with them inside the car or nearby with the cousin helping him and alternately keeping those kids warm? My dad would have taken the coat off his back to keep us warm while digging out a car. I just don't get it.

jmo

J

[n/t]

I would do the same as you Jayne and I KNOW my mom and dad would've risked their own lives to save mine if ever in that situation.

We live up in Canada and believe me, we've had our share of extreme winter weather already this year. The other day, we had freezing rain. The roads and sidewalks were a sheet of ice. I didn't have to go out but my 20 year old had to get to work. I told him to call me as soon as he got there. Was I overly protective? Perhaps but I felt comfort knowing he was safe and I think he knew that I would worry if he didn't call. He's 20!!

There's no excuse for what this "father" did.

[Jayne]

I would do the same as you Jayne and I KNOW my mom and dad would've risked their own lives to save mine if ever in that situation.

We live up in Canada and believe me, we've had our share of extreme winter weather already this year. The other day, we had freezing rain. The roads and sidewalks were a sheet of ice. I didn't have to go out but my 20 year old had to get to work. I told him to call me as soon as he got there. Was I overly protective? Perhaps but I felt comfort knowing he was safe and I think he knew that I would worry if he didn't call. He's 20!!

There's no excuse for what this "father" did.

well..it sounds like you 20 yo...is the same as my almost 16 yo...

he doesn't have the same "liberties"..but he calls me..let's me know he's OK..

My mother who died this past April...always asked us "kids" to call her..to let us know we got home...for me..whether it was 20 miles away at an apartment at college...360 miles away in Boston...or 3,000 miles away out here on the E Coast. I ALWAYS called her, because I knew she wouldn't Sleep well until she knew I/we were safe.

I no longer have her to call...and know what? I miss that...Sometimes when I drive home, from an extended trip or something, I think...gotta call Mom.

You sound like a perfect parent...and you have a perfect child (son/daughter)..

J

[koawally]

Bolded....

You have got to be kidding me?

With that said, it may not have been alcohol. It could have been drugs or both!

We now know he was convicted in February for misdemeanor drug possession. In 1994, he was found guilty of drug possession with the intent to deliver or manufacture.


IMO, he sent his children to their deaths. Thankfully, one survived but I can't even imagine the horror the boy went through.

This creep falls in the same category as Casey Anthony, imo. It may not have been the same crime but he put their childrens lives at risk and one of them lost.

This fellow is certainly not in the same catagory as Casey Anthony...:thumbdown:

This man had sole custody of both children. No doubt he loved both his children. He drove a 1988 car. Poverty was perhaps a factor in his reasoning to allow the children to walk.The excitment of Christmas and seeing their Mother to celebrate the day with another gift probably prompted the children to think in their pleading to their Father that they could make it. There are cultural (Aborigional) differences at play here as well.

The Father spent hours trying to dig out of the snow in a rural location. He did try looking for the children. The Mother knew they were coming...what role did she play...NONE. Did she go looking for her children. How long did SHE wait to call the police? Right she didn't call...a friend did.

This is such a heartbreaking case. The intention of this Father was not to knowingly send his children on their merry way to certain death.

God Bless this family as they grieve!!

[n/t]

koawally, maybe you should read the updated articles. :unsure:

He didn't call the mom. She called him when he and the kids hadn't arrived. He went home after he dug himself out.

[NatalieB]

Well, if it turns out he forced those children to walk that 10 miles, I will most definitely change my opinion of him, but I'm not going to hang him out to dry till I have the facts down pat. I will never base my opinion on a media report.

As for the drugs mentioned, it's apples to oranges. If he was guilty of manufacturing and or dealing, charge him for that. I most definitely will not accuse him of murdering his child because he was at a time, involved in drugs.

I will however understand LE's actions more clearly if it's comes to light that he did force them out in those conditions.

[koawally]

koawally, maybe you should read the updated articles. :unsure:

He didn't call the mom. She called him when he and the kids hadn't arrived. He went home after he dug himself out.

Hi n/t

I'm up to date with this sad story.

The Mother obviously was expecting the kids. Jenks said she eventually called Aragon because she was concerned after no one arrived at her home on Thursday.
"I told him there was a storm coming," Jenks told the Associated Press in a telephone interview. What did she do to help locate her children? Nothing!! Absolutely nothing. The call for LE assistance wasn't even made by the Mother according to reports.

Son Bear was found at 11 PM and the daughter Sage at 2 AM the next morning.

The Father should have gone after the kids as soon as his car was free, but he DID go back to try to locate them...after the Mother called him to say they didn't arrive. The Mother: Jenks said SHE called 911 for help after she phoned Aragon and learned the kids were on foot. So why are the reports stating "A friend of Jenks calls police saying the kids are missing."

With officials saying that the father "forced" the children to walk is unsubstantiated by the Fathers cousin who was with the Father Christmas day, helping him dig the car out and then later helping with the search.

I'll wait to see what Bear states...actually happened Re "forcing them to walk."

[Senni]

Well, if it turns out he forced those children to walk that 10 miles, I will most definitely change my opinion of him, but I'm not going to hang him out to dry till I have the facts down pat. I will never base my opinion on a media report.

As for the drugs mentioned, it's apples to oranges. If he was guilty of manufacturing and or dealing, charge him for that. I most definitely will not accuse him of murdering his child because he was at a time, involved in drugs.

I will however understand LE's actions more clearly if it's comes to light that he did force them out in those conditions.


Looks as if Uncle is more involved too. He's been arrested and charged with 2nd degree and with drug possession. I have an idea, they were sobering up before they called the law.

http://www.magicvalley.com/articles/2009/01/01/news/breaking_news/doc495d1f4d18dff584029232.txt

[n/t]

Looks as if Uncle is more involved too. He's been arrested and charged with 2nd degree and with drug possession. I have an idea, they were sobering up before they called the law.

http://www.magicvalley.com/articles/2009/01/01/news/breaking_news/doc495d1f4d18dff584029232.txt

Wow! :ohmy:

That would be my guess too, Senni. There's no doubt one or the other would've called or tried to get help if they were sober. They waited over 5 hours, IIRC. Heck, they probably forgot what they did with the kids until the mom called.:cursing:

[JD1974]

Are you saying children that age can make rational decisions? Are we forgetting who's the adult here or what?

I don't know why the mom didn't go get them. According to the timeline, apparently the dad goes back to look for them so maybe she thought he was going to find them safe and sound.

=====

12 to 1 p.m. - The vehicle is unstuck, according to Quintana.

1 to 2 p.m. - Children's mom, JoLeta Jenks, calls Aragon saying kids haven't arrived, according to Quintana. Aragon and Quintana drive back to where the children began walking and go on foot to look for them, according to the Blaine County Sheriff's Office.


Kids that age can be charged as adults if they commit a crime. Seriously if the kids started walking and thought it was too cold why didn't they just turn right back around and go back to the truck? I think since they lived with that weather they thought they could make it, apparently they were somewhat right, the boy made it didn't he? The poor little girl tried to go back to the truck so she was out in the weather a lot longer.

I just think this is one of those situations that when you annalyze it sounds horrible, when you are actually living it at the time...you make a judgement call that you think would be best. This guy never thought his kids would get hurt.

[JD1974]

I agree, there is way more to this. Try looking up both Kenneth S Quintana (29) and Robert E Aragon (55), I don't think I'd want my kids with either. https://www.idcourts.us/repository/start.do

And before everyone starts with people change, uh huh. I think the 4 hours looking was spent getting sober.



So how did he get custody?? Did you look up some dirt on the mom also?

[interested]

Wow! :ohmy:

That would be my guess too, Senni. There's no doubt one or the other would've called or tried to get help if they were sober. They waited over 5 hours, IIRC. Heck, they probably forgot what they did with the kids until the mom called.:cursing:

I really don't see the need for a trial here.

You take both the dad and the uncle, drop them off above the tree line of any mountain wearing a down jacket and pajama bottoms & tell them to walk home.

I don't give a crap how badly he feels now, he had multiple opportunities to mitigate the original bad choice. He didn't bother taking advantage of any of them.

Why in heavens name did the man with a history of drug use and dealing have custody of these children? Wouldn't drug use usually dictate the user isn't capable of making appropriate decisions for himself, let alone children under his care?

[interested]

Kids that age can be charged as adults if they commit a crime. Seriously if the kids started walking and thought it was too cold why didn't they just turn right back around and go back to the truck? I think since they lived with that weather they thought they could make it, apparently they were somewhat right, the boy made it didn't he? The poor little girl tried to go back to the truck so she was out in the weather a lot longer.

I just think this is one of those situations that when you annalyze it sounds horrible, when you are actually living it at the time...you make a judgement call that you think would be best. This guy never thought his kids would get hurt.


Perhaps you haven't actually read the story?

No, the son didn't "make it", he was found by rescuers 11 hours after he started walking, at a rest stop 5 miles away from where he started walking stripped down to his thermals in hypothermia delirium.

11 hours to make it half way to his destination and he was dressed in thermals, not a skirt and pajama bottoms.

[Amy S.]

Even in the best weather - how would these 2 children know where to go? When my kids started driving, I was always surprised that they didn't know the location of places that they were very familiar with. It was because they had never had to drive there and never paid any attention.

This guy needs charged with child endangerment, at the very least.

I wonder how the children were dressed, when they started out? No one in their right mind would try to walk 10 miles in the cold and snow.

It takes me 20 minutes to walk a mile. 10 miles would take 200 minutes and you would have to account for getting tired, so a 10 mile walk would take over 4 hours. moo

[n/t]

Perhaps you haven't actually read the story?

No, the son didn't "make it", he was found by rescuers 11 hours after he started walking, at a rest stop 5 miles away from where he started walking stripped down to his thermals in hypothermia delirium.

11 hours to make it half way to his destination and he was dressed in thermals, not a skirt and pajama bottoms.

Thanks for replying to that poster. I had to delete my post a couple of times. Accusing the poor kids. How disgusting! :cursing:


I wish I knew why the father had custody, interested. Maybe we'll hear more soon. Those poor kids.

[JD1974]

Perhaps you haven't actually read the story?

No, the son didn't "make it", he was found by rescuers 11 hours after he started walking, at a rest stop 5 miles away from where he started walking stripped down to his thermals in hypothermia delirium.

11 hours to make it half way to his destination and he was dressed in thermals, not a skirt and pajama bottoms.

Yes I did read the story and by made it meaning he survived.

[JD1974]

Even in the best weather - how would these 2 children know where to go? When my kids started driving, I was always surprised that they didn't know the location of places that they were very familiar with. It was because they had never had to drive there and never paid any attention.

This guy needs charged with child endangerment, at the very least.

I wonder how the children were dressed, when they started out? No one in their right mind would try to walk 10 miles in the cold and snow.

It takes me 20 minutes to walk a mile. 10 miles would take 200 minutes and you would have to account for getting tired, so a 10 mile walk would take over 4 hours. moo


Child endangerment yes, if he forced them to walk. I just can't see this as murder. I think he made a serious error in judgment, I have made them myself as a mom, I was fortunate that nothing happened to my children because of it.

[n/t]

I really don't see the need for a trial here.

You take both the dad and the uncle, drop them off above the tree line of any mountain wearing a down jacket and pajama bottoms & tell them to walk home.

I don't give a crap how badly he feels now, he had multiple opportunities to mitigate the original bad choice. He didn't bother taking advantage of any of them.

Why in heavens name did the man with a history of drug use and dealing have custody of these children? Wouldn't drug use usually dictate the user isn't capable of making appropriate decisions for himself, let alone children under his care?

I think the only one he feels bad about is himself.

[interested]

Even in the best weather - how would these 2 children know where to go? When my kids started driving, I was always surprised that they didn't know the location of places that they were very familiar with. It was because they had never had to drive there and never paid any attention.

This guy needs charged with child endangerment, at the very least.

I wonder how the children were dressed, when they started out? No one in their right mind would try to walk 10 miles in the cold and snow.

It takes me 20 minutes to walk a mile. 10 miles would take 200 minutes and you would have to account for getting tired, so a 10 mile walk would take over 4 hours. moo


The son (Bear) was dressed in thermals, the daughter (Sage) was wearing a down jacket, black skirt and pink pajama bottoms.

I'm assuming Bear had a decent jacket only because Sage did.

The rescuers searched in knee deep snow, which means it was somewhere between knee & hip deep for Sage.

Appropriate wear for these conditions would have been ski pants, down jacket and either snow shoes or cross country skis.

The high temperature in the area on Christmas day was 27 degrees with wind chill bringing it to sub zero.

For god sakes, he couldn't drive on a highway, or get his truck unstuck, but he set his children out to walk ten miles & then didn't call anyone to make sure they arrived!

[interested]

Yes I did read the story and by made it meaning he survived.



Well there's an upside, Dad didn't manage to kill both with his stellar decision making skills.

What's a little near death experience when you've got such a great story to tell your grandchildren some day?

[JD1974]

Well there's an upside, Dad didn't manage to kill both with his stellar decision making skills.

What's a little near death experience when you've got such a great story to tell your grandchildren some day?



Such drama. I suppose you are one of the perfect parent posters who have never made a mistake raising your children. I am not a perfect parent and yes a decision I made when my kids were young did almost kill us. That is why I feel for this guy, IF what I have read so far is true, he thought he was doing the right thing. If I learn different than my opinion will change.

[interested]

Such drama. I suppose you are one of the perfect parent posters who have never made a mistake raising your children. I am not a perfect parent and yes a decision I made when my kids were young did almost kill us. That is why I feel for this guy, IF what I have read so far is true, he thought he was doing the right thing. If I learn different than my opinion will change.

You can be dang sure I never dropped my children out in the middle of no where without appropriate clothing, in the middle of a blizzard and then never bothered to inquire as to their well being, have you?

Key phrase in your little tale, "did almost kill us", meaning you were with them, you didn't drop young children in the middle of no where and tell them to fend for themselves.

It's idiotic that this man set out in this storm.

Compounded by the fact he apparently didn't have proper clothing for the children in the event they had trouble on the road.

Compounded by his decision to either allow them or tell them to walk 10 miles in conditions that didn't allow for driving.

Compounded by his decision to not bother inquiring about them when he did manage to free himself.

This wasn't one mistake with tragic results. This was a series of decisions that clearly show a lack of concern for his children. This is voluntary manslaughter if he allowed them to walk, murder if he forced them to walk.

& yes, I consider the senseless and preventable death of an 11 year old girl on Christmas day very dramatic. I should think any parent who takes the job of parenting as the giant responsibility it is, would.

[JD1974]

Well there's an upside, Dad didn't manage to kill both with his stellar decision making skills.

What's a little near death experience when you've got such a great story to tell your grandchildren some day?


This is what I called being dramatic and frankly pretty sick.

[interested]

This is what I called being dramatic and frankly pretty sick.


Considering rescuers finding a child in hypothermic delirium as having "made it" and therefore there was just a little lapse in parental judgement is pretty high on my list of what I find "frankly pretty sick".

[starling]

The grandfather said she was sage,sweetgrass & feathers
:rose:

[JD1974]

Considering rescuers finding a child in hypothermic delirium as having "made it" and therefore there was just a little lapse in parental judgement is pretty high on my list of what I find "frankly pretty sick".


Like I said according to what I have read up to this moment I think the father was trying to do what he thought was best given the circumstances. It is so easy to judge as we sit in our warm house and type from a computer. When something happens that could be life threatening you have no idea how you will react until you are actually faced with it. As we sit here and analyze after the fact I do come to the conclusion that he made the wrong choice. If I was there first hand while this was going on, I wouldn't think I had made a bad choice if I thought I was giving my children a better opportunity to survive. If something else comes out that this man did this in some way to hurt his children well then obviously my opinion would change.

ETA Even the childrens mother says he shouldn't be charged, she knew him, she said he was a great father. I guess we will know exactly what went on when Bear tells what happened that day. If I am wrong I have no problem admitting it as I said I am far from perfect and I have been wrong many times.

[koawally]

Looks as if Uncle is more involved too. He's been arrested and charged with 2nd degree and with drug possession. I have an idea, they were sobering up before they called the law.

http://www.magicvalley.com/articles/2009/01/01/news/breaking_news/doc495d1f4d18dff584029232.txt



Check out the Idaho Repository link above from Senni for:


Robert E Aragon(Father)Birthdate1953
Joleta Marie Jenks(Mother)
Kenneth Sams Quintana(Cousin of Father)

It's a very sad history of poverty, alcoholism, and child endangerment

God Bless them all!!

[bkwits]

Like I said according to what I have read up to this moment I think the father was trying to do what he thought was best given the circumstances. It is so easy to judge as we sit in our warm house and type from a computer. When something happens that could be life threatening you have no idea how you will react until you are actually faced with it. As we sit here and analyze after the fact I do come to the conclusion that he made the wrong choice. If I was there first hand while this was going on, I wouldn't think I had made a bad choice if I thought I was giving my children a better opportunity to survive. If something else comes out that this man did this in some way to hurt his children well then obviously my opinion would change.

ETA Even the childrens mother says he shouldn't be charged, she knew him, she said he was a great father. I guess we will know exactly what went on when Bear tells what happened that day. If I am wrong I have no problem admitting it as I said I am far from perfect and I have been wrong many times.

I think you are much too kind. While I think that 2nd degree murder is an overcharge, I think the dad and uncle deserve some jail time. If they thought the best option was to send the kids off on that long, freezing hike, why didn't they join them? I would have done that if I thought it was the best option, and I suspect you would have done so, as well.

They didn't follow them when they got the car going. They didn't check to see if they had arrived. This is his childrens' lives. Would you even send a grownup on such a walk in the sub freezing temps, trudging through a foot or two of snow. The boy would have frozen to death if they hadn't come looking for him. IMO

[interested]

I think you are much too kind. While I think that 2nd degree murder is an overcharge, I think the dad and uncle deserve some jail time. If they thought the best option was to send the kids off on that long, freezing hike, why didn't they join them? I would have done that if I thought it was the best option, and I suspect you would have done so, as well.

They didn't follow them when they got the car going. They didn't check to see if they had arrived. This is his childrens' lives. Would you even send a grownup on such a walk in the sub freezing temps, trudging through a foot or two of snow. The boy would have frozen to death if they hadn't come looking for him. IMO

Exactly the point. This wasn't one bad decision, this was a series of decisions that show a reckless disregard for human life.

Having found local articles with more detail and a video I believe that more firmly now than I did in previous posts.

Bear, was wearing jeans & tennis shoes, not boots, in snow drifts of 4' and temps @ -5 degrees, winds of 20 to 25 mph.

The vehicle was a 1988 Buick Century, not a truck as some reports state, a very old car, not a reliable or snow friendly vehicle & they knew they were headed into a bad storm, yet they had no appropriate clothing for the children, in the event of a break down or disablement.

They delayed for five hours knowing the children were out in that weather & not properly dressed before notifying police the children were missing. The children had already been out in that weather for four hours when Jenks (the mother) called Aragon (the father) to say they were not there and inquire about their whereabouts, between 1 and 2 pm. Police were not called until 7 pm.

& they tried to blame the mother who didn't even know these kids were walking, nor did she have a car, for not having the gift of telepathy & instinctively knowing these children were walking. I suppose she was supposed to hover in on her broom to pick them up.

They blamed Sage, because she didn't stay with her brother.

They bemoaned the fact that they "just couldn't keep going" when searching, after all they had been out there an entire four hours, about 5 hours less than the children when they finally called police & got themselves back into a warm place.:

http://www.magicvalley.com/articles/2008/12/30/news/top_story/151787.txt

"We thought their mother was going to meet up with the children," Quintana said. "Where was she? How were we supposed to know she wasn't coming?"

But Jenks told the Times-News she disagrees, adding Monday she didn't have a car. "They didn't even call me, telling me they were walking," she has said.

http://www.examiner.com/a-1771071~Town_mourns_snowy_death_of_little_girl.htm l

Femling said the boy was delusional from hypothermia and had discarded his jacket and pants, stripping down to his long underwear, and taking off his tennis shoes.

(skip)

Femling said the boy was delusional from hypothermia and had discarded his jacket and pants, stripping down to his long underwear, and taking off his tennis shoes.

http://mtexpress.com/index2.php?ID=2005124225

http://www.ktvb.com/news/localnews/stories/ktvbn-jan0209-quintana_arraigned.30faaccc.html

http://www.idahostatesman.com/235/story/617984.html

Pajama bottoms & tennis shoes, I'm just certain that's exactly how every responsible caring parent sends their child out into a blizzard to hike 10 miles as the parents turn around and get themselves back to the warmth of their home and of course their next tweak. Uncle wasted no time in cuddling up to his meth stash.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,475134,00.html

Quintana also faces drug charges. He was found with marijuana, methamphetamine and drug paraphernalia when he was arrested, officers said.

Yep, those guys are just all torn up over the death of Sage, or is it the potential for being separated from their drug of choice for an extended period?

I still say there's no need for a trial, dropping them off, above the tree line of any mountain, in pajama bottoms and tennis shoes and telling them to hike home should do. Mt McKinley will work just fine by me.

FWIW, Bear had a core body temperature of about 30 - 28 degrees (temp at which hypothermic delirium occurs), death by hypothermia occurs at a 28 degree core body temp (preceded by coma). Bear was very lucky he was found when he was, rather than 45 minutes later.

[bkwits]

I had also thought about they're starting out in a 20 yr car when the roads are not passable. They live in this area. They know the hazards. I know it was Christmas, but you just don't start a trip like this on untraveled roads in those condidtions. Anyone who lives in the northern tier of the country knows this. You stay home until the snow plows go through. IMO

[n/t]

interested, thank you for posting the links. I think most of us had a gut feeling that something was just not right and it's all becoming apparent now as to what happened on that fateful night.

Sage :rose:

I hope Bear gets professional help. I can't imagine what that poor kid went through. Losing his sister and his near death experience. :rose:

[bkwits]

I am so angry about this that I can hardly stand it. All of the parents, and relatives involved utterly failed these children. Imagine of the terror of these children in the cold, blowing snow. What an uncaring numbskull the father is, and the cousin is a meth head I guess.

No one even notified authorities until 7 pm. Sage could have been saved.

After looking at the drawing of the roads, I understand now why the dad went back home after he got his car unstuck. He had turned off the main highway onto a less traveled road and got stuck on that road after a short distance. He could not have gotten through with that old car. So why oh why did he send the children into that. And why oh why didn't he call authorities. Why didn't the mom call authorities. They left the kids to die.

IMO:cursing:

[evalles]

This guy was stupid or drunk or both. I wouldn't let my 11 year old walk 10 miles if it were 70 degrees out. I don't blame him for trying to get them there in his old beater, I had my share of old beaters & I didn't let them stop me from going where I wanted to go. I wouldn't blame him for telling them to walk to the closest house to use the phone, but this was totally senseless.
'Get to a phone,call your mom, I'll call her as soon as I get the car out. If you don't hear from me tell your mom to call highway patrol. Stay together.'
If I didn't think I was going to get my car out, I could understand the above scenario.

I would go with my kids to a phone and then go back for the car, or I'd just leave it there til the weather cleared.

Still, I think the murder charge is a little much.

[interested]

Don't count dear old dad out of the "Meth Head" description quite so fast, his most recent arrest for drug possession was February 2008.

The kids were between Dad and his Christmas day party, he needed to get them to Mom so he could go about his self indulgent business. Once he sent them on their way, he never gave their preparedness nor the distance to travel another thought. He didn't give their preparedness or distance to travel any thought before he sent them on their way, not the way they were dressed he didn't.

No one will ever convince me he wasn't either under the influence to the point of being completely incapable of making rational decisions or simply uncaring about what happened to those children. IMO

That's why they turned around, there was partying to be done, and he wasn't weighted down with parental responsibility once they were out of his sight. Out of sight, out of mind.

evalles, I was far from affluent when my children were little. I had my share of junk box cars. I didn't let it keep us from going where we wanted or needed to go, but I sure didn't go assuming I would get there without a problem. I'll bet you didn't either.

I always had with me what I needed in the event I ended up walking knowing it was a real possibility. That's what parents do, they make sure their kids are properly dressed.

I drive a new car today, I still don't take the chance of getting caught unprepared in NE winters. I keep ski pants, sweat shirts, hats, gloves, scarfs and Serrells in my trunk at all times. These men are older than me, this wasn't their first storm, it wasn't a surprise to them they could get stuck, they weren't unfamiliar with what is or isn't proper attire for the conditions or the risks of being in those conditions for hours without shelter.

There were several things these men could have done to mitigate their responsibility here. They did none of them.

Had they done anything that showed any concern for the children rather than getting back to their indulgences, I'd feel differently. But they didn't & then they tried to place the blame for the end result on anyone but themselves, including Sage.

[bkwits]

I'm sorry, but I don't feel sorry for the father or his cousin. Whatever jail time they get, they deserve. I have a hard time even feeling sorry for the mother. Why oh why didn't she call LE before 7 pm?

Poor kids. They were virtually abandoned. I think the father's actions are beyond stupid. They are criminal. IMO

[interested]

I'm sorry, but I don't feel sorry for the father or his cousin. Whatever jail time they get, they deserve. I have a hard time even feeling sorry for the mother. Why oh why didn't she call LE before 7 pm?

Poor kids. They were virtually abandoned. I think the father's actions are beyond stupid. They are criminal. IMO

I believe the five hour delay once he knew they weren't with Mom was the fathers only lucid action that day & it was self preservation. He knew he'd be in deep doo doo had the authorities been the ones to find them out in those conditions, dressed as they were & he was under the influence.

They spent 4 hours searching in hopes they would find them & could cover up the fact they left them out there like that. When they didn't find them, they were not the ones to call the police, it was the mother. I have to wonder if Dad ever would have called.

Mom may be dumb as dirt, but we don't know she was aware of how they were dressed. If it turns out she knew and didn't report them missing sooner, she should be charged as well. I'm on the fence on that, we don't have enough information.

I'm just furious these children were in the custody of this father. If the mother wouldn't or couldn't care for them, there was certainly enough information available that the father was not a proper guardian. Foster care may not be great, but it beats dead.

[bkwits]

I believe the five hour delay once he knew they weren't with Mom was the fathers only lucid action that day & it was self preservation. He knew he'd be in deep doo doo had the authorities been the ones to find them out in those conditions, dressed as they were & he was under the influence.

They spent 4 hours searching in hopes they would find them & could cover up the fact they left them out there like that. When they didn't find them, they were not the ones to call the police, it was the mother. I have to wonder if Dad ever would have called.

Mom may be dumb as dirt, but we don't know she was aware of how they were dressed. If it turns out she knew and didn't report them missing sooner, she should be charged as well. I'm on the fence on that, we don't have enough information.

I'm just furious these children were in the custody of this father. If the mother wouldn't or couldn't care for them, there was certainly enough information available that the father was not a proper guardian. Foster care may not be great, but it beats dead.

Well, there are conflicting reports as to when the kids started out, but it was a lot longer than 5 hours that the father knew they were out there. The mom knew for at least 5 hours that they were missing in a snowstorm in below freezing temps.

IMO after that long and in the distance they expected to travel, it doesn't make all the difference in how they were dressed.

[interested]

Well, there are conflicting reports as to when the kids started out, but it was a lot longer than 5 hours that the father knew they were out there. The mom knew for at least 5 hours that they were missing in a snowstorm in below freezing temps.

IMO after that long and in the distance they expected to travel, it doesn't make all the difference in how they were dressed.


I realize how long they were out there, I'm talking about from the time he knew @ between 1 & 2 in the afternoon and when Mom finally called LE at 7. I believe he knew when the mother called that it wouldn't be in HIS best interest for the police to be involved which is the only reason he went to look for them himself hoping to find them and avoid police involvement. His concern wasn't for the children, it was for himself.


I was once witness to a motorcycle accident. The rider suffered head trauma in the accident. Several people stopped, we all wanted to call the medics/911. The rider really didn't want us to do that. Police came upon the accident because someone called as they were driving. Turned out the motorcycle was stolen and there were warrants out for the guys arrest. When someone doesn't call for help, it usually means they have reason to fear the "help" more than the trouble they're in.

[bkwits]

I realize how long they were out there, I'm talking about from the time he knew @ between 1 & 2 in the afternoon and when Mom finally called LE at 7. I believe he knew when the mother called that it wouldn't be in HIS best interest for the police to be involved which is the only reason he went to look for them himself hoping to find them and avoid police involvement. His concern wasn't for the children, it was for himself.
respectfully snipped

Oh ITA, that Aragon only thinks of himself. In the courtroom, he banged his head on the table when he heard there were charges against "him." Most parents would be in total shock at what they had allowed to happen to their children...one dying a cold and frightening death. The other almost dead and traumatized for life. But it seems that this man is only concerned with his fate. I know we shouldn't judge others, but WTH.

IMO

[Senni]

I was once witness to a motorcycle accident. The rider suffered head trauma in the accident. Several people stopped, we all wanted to call the medics/911. The rider really didn't want us to do that. Police came upon the accident because someone called as they were driving. Turned out the motorcycle was stolen and there were warrants out for the guys arrest. When someone doesn't call for help, it usually means they have reason to fear the "help" more than the trouble they're in.

I agree, I think the adults in the situation knew what would happen if they didn't find the children first, and after they exhausted themselves trying, they had sobered up to the fact that this was way more than they could control. The three adults, dad, mom and uncle have been through the system, probably been warned if they didn't straighten up it would affect the children. Their first thoughts imho weren't for the children, as they would have called for help at first realization they didn't make it, but for themselves. It all stems from the drop the kids and hurry home that bothers me. Someone said in past posts suggested this was a cultural thing, (native american/walking/etc) doesn't matter what race or background you have, its still stupid.

And people please, the age of the car has nothing to do with being stuck in a snowdrift. Not everyone needs a new car to drive around. I myself would feel much safer in an older car in the winter, (weight, handling, besides survival if you get hit by someone) than a plastic and tin can wrapped around me!

[TealMermaid]

I think you are much too kind. While I think that 2nd degree murder is an overcharge, I think the dad and uncle deserve some jail time. If they thought the best option was to send the kids off on that long, freezing hike, why didn't they join them? I would have done that if I thought it was the best option, and I suspect you would have done so, as well.

They didn't follow them when they got the car going. They didn't check to see if they had arrived. This is his childrens' lives. Would you even send a grownup on such a walk in the sub freezing temps, trudging through a foot or two of snow. The boy would have frozen to death if they hadn't come looking for him. IMO

I agree. Why didn't they go with them, or follow them with the car when the got it unstuck? Why did they even go out when the weather was so bad? You can celebrate Christmas any day. So sad!:sad:

[bkwits]

I agree. Why didn't they go with them, or follow them with the car when the got it unstuck? Why did they even go out when the weather was so bad? You can celebrate Christmas any day. So sad!:sad:

Well, they didn't follow them in the car because the road was impassable. As I understand it, they had turned onto this road from the main highway about a mile or so back. They knew they couldn't go on. So the dad and uncle (cousin) turned around and went home, leaving the kids on their own 9 or 10 miles from their mom's house.

Why they let the kids out alone, I have no idea, except they are stupid and selfish. IMO

[Senni]

http://www.magicvalley.com/articles/2009/01/03/news/local_state/152053.txt

Here is information on Quintana hearing, and on the right is the sheriff of Lincoln County describing the weather that day.

This backs up my statements of the windchill and blowing snow, for the people who thought it was high twenties and probably ok for the father to let his kids walk.

[Dogmatic]

It's difficult for me to decide who all is to blame on this one.

One thing is for sure, Sage and Bear were NOT to blame, and my heart goes out to them.

I'm guessing cell phone records may clear up alot. It looks, right now, like the Dad and Uncle allowed the children to walk and never let the mother know that, and then just drove home. If that is the case, (unbelievable as it is), then my next question is this:

"Why, upon discovering that the children set off on foot, did Mom, Dad and Uncle wait an additional five hours to notify authorities?"

Rest in peace little Sage. Strength to you Bear.

[Jayne]

It's difficult for me to decide who all is to blame on this one.

One thing is for sure, Sage and Bear were NOT to blame, and my heart goes out to them.

I'm guessing cell phone records may clear up alot. It looks, right now, like the Dad and Uncle allowed the children to walk and never let the mother know that, and then just drove home. If that is the case, (unbelievable as it is), then my next question is this:

"Why, upon discovering that the children set off on foot, did Mom, Dad and Uncle wait an additional five hours to notify authorities?"

Rest in peace little Sage. Strength to you Bear.

Why? because one or two or all of them are absolute IDIOTS..

[bkwits]

Why? because one or two or all of them are absolute IDIOTS..


Self-indulgent idiots.

[Dogmatic]

Well, I don't know these three adults personally. For the sake of understanding the case, and extracting the truth, I would like to hear from Mom, Dad, and Uncle why each one of them chose to wait from 1:00 pm until 7:00 pm to contact authorities. And if we are to believe the newspaper accounting of the timeline, it wasn't any of those three that called police. It was another adult that heard the children were missing.

[interested]

I haven't seen any indication (may have missed it) that anyone in this story had a cell phone.

The father claimed he didn't have cell reception where he got stuck.

That doesn't explain why he didn't call when he got back home.

He never called the mother to say the children were walking or check to see if they arrived safely.

It was the mother that called him to find out where they were sometime between 1 and 2 in the afternoon.

Both mother and father knew they were out there in blizzard conditions yet neither of them called police until 7:00 that evening.

timeline of events

http://mtexpress.com/index2.php?ID=2005124225

Dec. 25

9:30 a.m. Sage Aragon, 11, and 12-year-old brother Bear Aragon start walking to West Magic Reservoir residential area after their father’s car gets stuck in snow on West Magic Road.

10:30-11 a.m. Robert Aragon, the children’s father, drives back to MagicValley after getting car unstuck.

1-2 p.m. Joletta Jenks, the children’s mother, notifies Robert Aragon that the children have not arrived.

7 p.m. Blaine County Sheriff’s Office notified that children are missing and search and rescue operation begins mobilization.

9:50 p.m. Bear Aragon found alive at BLM rest area about 4.5 miles west of where children started walking.

10:20 p.m. Blaine County Search and Rescue dog teams contacted to help with search.

[Dogmatic]

The father claimed he didn't have cell reception where he got stuck.

That doesn't explain why he didn't call when he got back home.

He never called the mother to say the children were walking or check to see if they arrived safely.

It was the mother that called him to find out where they were sometime between 1 and 2 in the afternoon.

Both mother and father knew they were out there in blizzard conditions yet neither of them called police until 7:00 that evening.

timeline of events

http://mtexpress.com/index2.php?ID=2005124225

That's my main issue.

Three adults knew at 2:00 that the kids had already been out in the blistering, cold wind at for 3 hours. And yet another five hours went by without the police becoming aware. And if we are to believe the newspaper, it wasn't any of those three adults that called police. It was a friend/neighbor of the Mother that called.

[interested]

That's my main issue.

Three adults knew at 2:00 that the kids had already been out in the blistering, cold wind at for 3 hours. And yet another five hours went by without the police becoming aware. And if we are to believe the newspaper, it wasn't any of those three adults that called police. It was a friend/neighbor of the Mother that called.

Exactly!!

There are some discrepancies in the reports, but not on the amount of time between when all adults knew the children were still out in the conditions of the day. Everyone knew between 1 & 2 pm, everyone had telephone capability and yet nobody called the police until 5 hours later.

Mom says she called LE in some reports, others say a friend of Mom called. A minor discrepancy really, could have been the friend, with Mom sitting next to her too upset, or for some other reason unable to speak rationally. But we know for certain it wasn't the Dad.

We know Dad went home within two hours of setting the children out to walk & never contacted Mom, even when he got all the way home.

We know it was approximately 2 hours after that, and 3-4 hours after the children started walking, before Mom called Dad to find out where the heck they were.

So, all adults were aware by 2 pm that the children had been out in that weather for approximately 3-4 hours, and yet it took another 5 hours for them to call authorities.

At least Dad was aware, or should have been aware, that Bear was wearing tennis shoes, not boots in weather that caused roads to be impassable.

At least Dad was aware, or should have been aware, Sage was wearing pajama bottoms, not cold weather gear in subzero temperatures with winds over 20 mph.

Some reports state Bear was only wearing a sweat shirt not a jacket. He had on thermals, but there's discrepancy as to whether he was wearing a jacket.

Given he was wearing tennis shoes, I don't think it matters. Tennis shoes on Bear and pajama bottoms on Sage tell me they were not dressed appropriately for a walk around the block, let alone a 10 mile hike.

[bkwits]

Exactly!!

There are some discrepancies in the reports, but not on the amount of time between when all adults knew the children were still out in the conditions of the day. Everyone knew between 1 & 2 pm, everyone had telephone capability and yet nobody called the police until 5 hours later.

Mom says she called LE in some reports, others say a friend of Mom called. A minor discrepancy really, could have been the friend, with Mom sitting next to her too upset, or for some other reason unable to speak rationally. But we know for certain it wasn't the Dad.

We know Dad went home within two hours of setting the children out to walk & never contacted Mom, even when he got all the way home.

We know it was approximately 2 hours after that, and 3-4 hours after the children started walking, before Mom called Dad to find out where the heck they were.

So, all adults were aware by 2 pm that the children had been out in that weather for approximately 3-4 hours, and yet it took another 5 hours for them to call authorities.

At least Dad was aware, or should have been aware, that Bear was wearing tennis shoes, not boots in weather that caused roads to be impassable.

At least Dad was aware, or should have been aware, Sage was wearing pajama bottoms, not cold weather gear in subzero temperatures with winds over 20 mph.

Some reports state Bear was only wearing a sweat shirt not a jacket. He had on thermals, but there's discrepancy as to whether he was wearing a jacket.

Given he was wearing tennis shoes, I don't think it matters. Tennis shoes on Bear and pajama bottoms on Sage tell me they were not dressed appropriately for a walk around the block, let alone a 10 mile hike.

These people are either narurally brain dead, or taking something that causes it. The two men, dad and uncle/cousin said they went back to look for the kids and uncle/cousin said they looked until they couldn't go anymore. They were exhausted and almost frozen. Still they didn't call any authorities. :cursing:

[tootie]

Holy Cow they have dropped the murder charges. I am speechless. Here is the link. (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/H/HYPOTHERMIA_DEATH?SITE=FLTAM&SECTION=US). Looks as if they will pursue involuntary manslaughter charges.

[JD1974]

They have dropped the murder charge against Aragon and his cousin. They have been charged with felony injury to a child and involuntary manslaughter.

I agree with involuntary manslaughter, the murder charge was just over the top. What he did was so stupid but I just can't see that he thought anyone would die.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090115/ap_on_re_us/hypothermia_death

[Elle]

They have dropped the murder charge against Aragon and his cousin. They have been charged with felony injury to a child and involuntary manslaughter.

I agree with involuntary manslaughter, the murder charge was just over the top. What he did was so stupid but I just can't see that he thought anyone would die.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090115/ap_on_re_us/hypothermia_death

I agree, I too thought the murder charge was over the top. The charges now are appropriate (imo). In any case, this is such a tragedy, one that could have been avoided. I wonder how Bear is doing? My thought and prayers go out to him :rose:, I cannot imagine what he went/is going through.

Sage:rose:

[JD1974]

I know, I cannot imagine what Bear is going through. I hope he is getting counseling.

[Dogmatic]

I agree, I too thought the murder charge was over the top. The charges now are appropriate (imo). In any case, this is such a tragedy, one that could have been avoided. I wonder how Bear is doing? My thought and prayers go out to him :rose:, I cannot imagine what he went/is going through.

Sage:rose:


I have no feelings for either parent of the uncle in this case, as my mind cannot move beyond Sage and her final hours of terror, dispair, torment and pain.

I guess I'm not a big enough person to be able to feel for the people that waited five hours to call authorities AFTER they knew their little children were out in that blizzard.

Strength to you Bear. Bless you.

[Dogmatic]

Well, I know it is no consolation but from what I know from watching documentaries of Mt. Everest expeditions and seeing people literally die of hypothermia on those. It is painless, there is no terror or despair. Although even knowing that it makes what happened no less tragic. Sad story all around. I am also glad they dropped the murder charge.


Here is another story about a climber and how he died a likely peaceful and painless death. http://www.ktre.com/Global/story.asp?S=5833977&nav=2FH5aYhI


I'm sorry. I cannot locate any comfort in that thought. Death by hypothermia is EVENTUALLY painless. It's getting to the painless part that is painful.

Fear of being away from her brother. Fear of not finding her Dad. Painfully cold fingers and toes. Seeing nothing but blowing snow on Christmas morning and wondering which way to turn.
Those that have suffered from hypothermia, but not died, can tell you there is much pain working up to the final moments which are painless.

I appreciate what you are trying to do, but my heart will always ache for Sage and her final hours. I pray for Bear. I feel disgust for the three adults that waited five hours to call authorities AFTER they knew their kids were in the blizzard.

[Jaxnoeny]

This is the craziest thing. I would not let an 11 and 12 yr old walk 10 miles alone even if it wasn't cold and snowing! Good greif were is the common sense in this situation? Someone said they had a cell phone. Why did they not keep the kids with them and call a wreaker to pull them out?

I am not sure how I feel about the charges but at the very least this father should NEVER be allowed to supervise children. He obviously has no idea how to care for them. I am not sure the uncle should be charged with anything. These children were the father's responsibility not the uncles! JMO

[koawally]

I agree, I too thought the murder charge was over the top. The charges now are appropriate (imo). In any case, this is such a tragedy, one that could have been avoided. I wonder how Bear is doing? My thought and prayers go out to him :rose:, I cannot imagine what he went/is going through.

Sage:rose:

I agree Elle!! God Bless Sage, Bear and their Families:sad:

[GentleBreeze]

This is the craziest thing. I would not let an 11 and 12 yr old walk 10 miles alone even if it wasn't cold and snowing! Good greif were is the common sense in this situation? Someone said they had a cell phone. Why did they not keep the kids with them and call a wreaker to pull them out?

I am not sure how I feel about the charges but at the very least this father should NEVER be allowed to supervise children. He obviously has no idea how to care for them. I am not sure the uncle should be charged with anything. These children were the father's responsibility not the uncles! JMO

I think due to the storm and the area the cell phone did not work.

imo