12/23 th 1/1

[Cinderella]

I feel bad for what has happened to the Bob Buehner family. His teenage daughter, Robin passed away on December 15, 2008. He was a big advocate for finding out what happened to Ray Gricar. Please contact J.J. for an address to send him a sympathy card.

I hope that Coldwater doesn't mind that I started this holiday thread. Please read the rules and abide by the rules.

I look forward to hearing about Tree 0f Life's visit to Lewisburg.

Logicworks had an interesting dream.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year everyone.

Your thoughts?

[Cloudbuster]

Thanks Cind for starting the thread!!! Seems alot has happened including TL's appeal being denied.
http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/1025851.html

[Politigal]

Just a couple of odds & ends I've thought of over the past several days...

1) From JK Arnold's googlepages:

http://gricar.disappearance.googlepages.com/gricardisappearance

In other contexts, he was far more reserved. He did not share his personal turmoils with staff.

IMO, it's possible that *if* Gricar was having relationship problems with Patty (and that's a possibility considering the park walk - again IMO) that he would *not* have shared that with anyone....

2) On passing polygraphs .....another case came to mind. Mark Unger was convicted of murdering his wife. He *passed* three polygraphs.

Happy Holidays to all

[Politigal]

On another note, a long time ago Tony Gricar had responded to one of my emails, where I asked about the car seat in the Mini Cooper. He said the seat was scooted back, as if a tall person had driven it.

That could mean several things...

1) a short person drove & scooted it back before exiting the car
2) Gricar drove it
3) another tall man drove it
4) a tall woman drove it

I still believe that with the absence of any identifiable fingerprints, someone did not want anyone to know who drove that car...

I can't see a reason for Gricar getting rid of his own prints.

[Cloudbuster]

Happy Holidays Pgal and everyone!!! Pgal you bring up some good points. The seat scooting back to me seems like a tall person driving it. I guess the passengers seat was? Sometimes when I get out of my car the seat rolls back far.

[UndertheRadar]

Too bad the Mini didn't have the "memory seat" option so it could be determined whether the seat was in the position Ray usually kept it.

As for tall vs. short drivers, JMO but I think length of leg probably matters more. My MIL and I are both about the same height, tall, but she's got legs that go on from here to Sunday. I've driven her vehicle and had to move the seat up to reach the pedals.

[Cloudbuster]

The memory seat option would be great!!! I still want to know why TL wants to bring up LE corruption? I know they didn't except his appeal and I know they wanted to do a deal with him (to catch someone bigger). I know back then he refused to rat out anyone bigger. Apparently he valued his life, so wonder who they really wanted? They waited 8 months to a year before arresting him to get a longer sentence when they could of gotton him earlier, thats why his attorney called it entrapement. What that's really saying is they wanted a big fish, but who?

[Politigal]

Human skeletal remains found in Indiana County, PA

http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?t=347198

[Politigal]

According to the article, this was near Brockway - which is only about 1 hr from Bellefonte...wow

[Shelby1]

I never post on this thread because you guys have it all covered, but I wanted to say that I read everything.

It's just amazing that someone can disappear off the face of the earth like this.

I hope this year brings answers.

[ladyheartfixer]

well guys...since I live about 15 miles from this area I will keep my eyes on the local news and ears open....remember...Joey Offett is missing from this area and these mines are great places to dispose of bodies....

[Serendipitous1]

According to the article, this was near Brockway - which is only about 1 hr from Bellefonte...wowThe well driller is located in Brockway, which is in northeast Jefferson County. The Indiana County remains were reportedly found off Leasure Run Road, which I believe runs between Marchand and Rochester Mills. Marchand is about 90 miles west of Bellefonte. http://www.mapquest.com/maps?1c=Bellefonte&1s=PA&2c=Marchand&2s=PA

A bit out of the way for RG...but hopefully someone will soon get an answer to their question, if not their prayer.

[ladyheartfixer]

The well driller is located in Brockway, which is in northeast Jefferson County. The Indiana County remains were reportedly found off Leasure Run Road, which I believe runs between Marchand and Rochester Mills. Marchand is about 90 miles west of Bellefonte. http://www.mapquest.com/maps?1c=Bellefonte&1s=PA&2c=Marchand&2s=PA

A bit out of the way for RG...but hopefully someone will soon get an answer to their question, if not their prayer.

true...but remember...I have friends in low places...and one of them is Punxy

[Serendipitous1]

well guys...since I live about 15 miles from this area I will keep my eyes on the local news and ears open....remember...Joey Offett is missing from this area and these mines are great places to dispose of bodies....Offutt/Sykesville does make more "immediate" sense.

[Serendipitous1]

true...but remember...I have friends in low places...and one of them is PunxyYou know "Phil"?...outrageous!

I mean...outstanding!

[ladyheartfixer]

I've known Phil since before he was cool. Have you ever made the trek to Gobbler's Knob on a cold Feb morning? now that is outrageously awesome!!!!!

[J. J. in Phila]

Gobbler's Knot it a bit too cold for me. :)

The body was found about 150 miles, one way, from where the Mini was found. It's obviously not impossible, but it would be about as likely as finding his body in Philadelphia.

[Serendipitous1]

Gobbler's Knot it a bit too cold for me. :)

The body was found about 150 miles, one way, from where the Mini was found. It's obviously not impossible, but it would be about as likely as finding his body in Philadelphia.Go figure.?!.

[J. J. in Phila]

It wouldn't be the strangest one found.

About six years ago, a homeless man was found in an abandoned house, disemboweled and with several organs removed, within about 5 miles of me. About 10 years ago someone, white, murdered a woman, white, in the suburbs and dumped the body in a black neighborhood, to make it look some black guy carjacked her. I'd say about once every 18 months, LE finds a hidden body in Phila. (There are also cases of building over cemeteries, one of which is within 5 miles from me).

They do find bodies in Pennsylvania, ranging from 500 year old Amerindian remains (possibly my 15 great grandmother) to more recent victims of crimes.

I can remember c. 1970, they found the remains of a victim of the 1889 Johnstown flood (also within 5 miles of me, ironically).

[ladyheartfixer]

so you are a dead body magnet? ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh I just love the dead!

[J. J. in Phila]

so you are a dead body magnet? ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh I just love the dead!

Worse than that; one of my college jobs was a "house sitter" in a funeral home.

:biggrin:

[Politigal]

Offutt/Sykesville does make more "immediate" sense.


It does...I just hope LE is able to make an ID of this person for the family's sake.

I can't begin to imagine being a member of a family with a missing loved one....you would be on pins & needles with every piece of news like this.

[Serendipitous1]

so you are a dead body magnet? ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh I just love the dead!You are both such "sick" puppies!

[J. J. in Phila]

Didn't someone mention at some point that RFG's DNA was in a missing person's database?

[ladyheartfixer]

yes...I can pretty much assure you that his DNA is in the databank in DC

[Serendipitous1]

It does...I just hope LE is able to make an ID of this person for the family's sake.

I can't begin to imagine being a member of a family with a missing loved one....you would be on pins & needles with every piece of news like this.You got that right. I cannot begin to tell you how often I have "googled" skeleton remains. And the "hits" just keep on coming...very sad!

[J. J. in Phila]

yes...I can pretty much assure you that his DNA is in the databank in DC

How common is it to check John Doe bodies against the database? Routine?

[Politigal]

You got that right. I cannot begin to tell you how often I have "googled" skeleton remains. And the "hits" just keep on coming...very sad!

It's my opinion that Gricar most likely met with foul play, but I sincerely doubt that his body would just be dumped in a wooded area, considering other aspects of his disappearance. I think his remains will never be found.

[J. J. in Phila]

It's my opinion that Gricar most likely met with foul play, but I sincerely doubt that his body would just be dumped in a wooded area, considering other aspects of his disappearance. I think his remains will never be found.

While remains can be hidden, it is exceptionally difficult to destroy a body, at least without some major infrastructure. It is impossible to do it on the spur of the moment, without some planning. It this was a murder, the question is, where is the body? The most likely place would be the Susquehanna, but it's looking less and less likely that it's there.

[Politigal]

just another article on the remains found near Marchand

http://www.indianagazette.com/articles/2008/12/30/news/indiana_county/10008397.txt

[Cloudbuster]

Pgal thanks for the heads up on the bones. On our regular board we are not allowed to start but 1 thread a day. Does that mean we can post on the ones that are there already?

[J. J. in Phila]

There is one thing that struck me, over the past week about those witnesses that saw RFG moving the Mini, in the parking lot. That fact was never reported until after the witnesses had reported it to the police. It certainly wasn't in the press reports.

A Happy New Year to everyone! :)

[Politigal]

There is one thing that struck me, over the past week about those witnesses that saw RFG moving the Mini, in the parking lot. That fact was never reported until after the witnesses had reported it to the police. It certainly wasn't in the press reports.

A Happy New Year to everyone! :)


But, none of the witnesses who claim to have seen Gricar reported seeing him *until* it was reported that his car was located there. I still believe the power of suggestion was greatly at play there. (that & there was definitely more than one Mini Cooper in the Lewisburg area.)

[UndertheRadar]

But, none of the witnesses who claim to have seen Gricar reported seeing him *until* it was reported that his car was located there. I still believe the power of suggestion was greatly at play there. (that & there was definitely more than one Mini Cooper in the Lewisburg area.)

You hit the nail on the head, kiddo. I don't understand those who so easily accept the witnesses as having seen Ray Gricar as opposed to having seen someone who might have resembled Ray Gricar. Even Bennett couldn't say whether the man he saw wore a vest or a jacket and could only say "closely resembled" RG.

As Professor Elizabeth Loftus** notes, “[m]ost people, including eyewitnesses, are motivated by a desire to be correct, to be observant, and to avoid looking foolish. People want to give an answer, to be helpful, and many will do this at the risk of being incorrect. People want to see crimes solved and justice done, and this desire may motivate them to volunteer more than is warranted by their meager memory. The line between valid retrieval and unconscious fabrication is easily crossed.”

[bolding mine]

http://www.nacdl.org/public.nsf/0/9973f3ec244ba99685256f6a00558f39?opendocument

**Loftus is one of the leading researchers in memory and witness testimony.

[J. J. in Phila]

But, none of the witnesses who claim to have seen Gricar reported seeing him *until* it was reported that his car was located there. I still believe the power of suggestion was greatly at play there. (that & there was definitely more than one Mini Cooper in the Lewisburg area.)


Because nobody in the area knew RFG was missing until the Mini was found in Lewisburg. The story was carried, at the earliest, on the 6:00 PM news in the J/A/SC media markets on 4/16/05. The car was found at 6:30 PM.

The "power of suggestion," even if it did exist, it wouldn't account for three people, minimum, reporting seeing the same activity. That activity was reported to LE first, and then it got into the press.

UTR, it would have be someone not only "resembles" RFG, but was also driving a red Mini, in regard to the parking lot witnesses. Bennett, BTW, isn't one of those parking lot witnesses.

[J. J. in Phila]

The "twisting" would then be by Buehner, so I doubt it. I think the first mention of it wasn't until Renner's article, about 6 months after the disappearance. Unless someone sent a copy of it back to April in a time machine, it wasn't suggestion.

There was one one witness that saw RFG get into a car. It was from the Altoona Mirror article. In the context, it sounds like another car, not the Mini, but DZ is hugely vague on the subject. There is more unreported, like two people who saw him in the SoS at that time. One was identified in the DC, but there was another mentioned by DZ in Renner's article. One of those two saw the "mystery woman."

[J. J. in Phila]

Here is what I have for the current witness list for 4/15-4/16/05.

Witness List for Lewisburg and vicinity

4/15/05 en route (1 Witness)

1. PEF, phone call, c. 11:14 AM. Polygraph, call record, location of phone.

4/15/05 in or near Lewisburg (7 Witnesses)

2. Woman at Museum 12:00 Noon, reported Centre Daily Times (CDT)

3. McKnight’s witness, c. 5:00 PM, includes Mini, CDT

4. Witnesses, Mini being moved in lot, c. 5:30-6:30 PM (at least three), CDT, Cleveland Scene (CS)

5. Alvey, Remember When owner, in SoS, in the evening (after 6:00 PM), possibly 4/16/05, reported Daily Collegian (DC), unidentified, but alluded to in CDT, CS. Second witness in SoS, CS.

4/16/05 in Lewisburg (3 Witnesses)

1. Bennett, lunchtime, CDT

2. Workers, 2, saw RFG at the SoS, just after lunch, CDT, CS

(Note that this excludes Fenton and Grine.)

[Serendipitous1]

MM appears to have forced LM out of the DA's office:

http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/crime_courts/story/1037816.html

[Cloudbuster]

Good find S1 and Happy New Years to everyone! This throwing out does not surprise me. If I was the betting type I'd venture the "Sweet "case amongst others. Ranking Sweet at the top. Those S words really get to me. I wonder if anyone will talk now?

[J. J. in Phila]

-----heralding the beginning of the pre-election Spring cleaning.
JMO

I think you are correct. The Rogers case being overturned on the grounds that the prosecution suppressed evidence. Who argued that case for the prosecution? LM. It was an embarrassing situation prior to a possibly contested election.

[J. J. in Phila]

You've got the cart before the horse, don't you? Marshall assisted Madeira in the Rogers case------From what I read in the news the judge ruled Madeira hid evidence.
JMO


You are correct, but LM can be blamed for it, by Madeira. LM has had several high profile mistakes. Madeira actually could be sanction over it.

[dvsone]

It wouldn't be the strangest one found.

About six years ago, a homeless man was found in an abandoned house, disemboweled and with several organs removed, within about 5 miles of me. About 10 years ago someone, white, murdered a woman, white, in the suburbs and dumped the body in a black neighborhood, to make it look some black guy carjacked her. I'd say about once every 18 months, LE finds a hidden body in Phila. (There are also cases of building over cemeteries, one of which is within 5 miles from me).

They do find bodies in Pennsylvania, ranging from 500 year old Amerindian remains (possibly my 15 great grandmother) to more recent victims of crimes.

I can remember c. 1970, they found the remains of a victim of the 1889 Johnstown flood (also within 5 miles of me, ironically).

You may want to consider moving. just sayin'


Ive read this thread now since its inception .... and I just cant fathom a man disappearing. It boggles me.
My opine has always been, he is dead, by the hands of another. That was my first gut thought ... Ive never thought the sitings were true. I also still think Patty did something ... not necessarily the one to harm, but passed info on to the "wrong" person. There was no monetary reason for her to want him dead. (right?) So .. anyway, just wanted to say, you guys are very diligent.

[J. J. in Phila]

You may want to consider moving. just sayin'


Ive read this thread now since its inception .... and I just cant fathom a man disappearing. It boggles me.
My opine has always been, he is dead, by the hands of another. That was my first gut thought ... Ive never thought the sitings were true. I also still think Patty did something ... not necessarily the one to harm, but passed info on to the "wrong" person. There was no monetary reason for her to want him dead. (right?) So .. anyway, just wanted to say, you guys are very diligent.


Those places are more than 200 miles apart; it follows me. :)

My first thought was suicide or RFG fell into the river (possibly having some health problem like a heart attack that caused the fall). Murder was a close second. I also expected the body to be found in a month.

The problem, in the last ten months, every tiny bit of information that surfaced has pointed away from murder. Even these things are generally coming from people that believe RFG was murdered (like McKnight and his witness) or are at least publicly neutral, like MM and Dixon (the erasure request).

PEF's monetary situation got worse with RFG's disappearance, so you can eliminate that possibility; he wasn't paying any bills. I considered a lovers' quarrel scenario for about six months, but that would involve PEF getting to Lewisburg after 5:00 PM on 4/15/05 and her movements are accounted for (not to mention 5-7 witnesses being wrong, including a police officer, and a polygraph test being wrong).

[J. J. in Phila]

I'll amend my comments to say that it points to RFG planning to walk away, at least overnight.