Mon. Dec.22 Part 2 [Archive] - Page 4 - In Session Message Boards

Jester

12-23-2008, 01:34 AM

Thanks for your post, Katprint.

IMO, the defense already started to build the foundations for an "accident" defense after Casey was charged with murder, when they released the statement in which they say that if Caylee is dead, it is most certainly an accident, probably an overdose of chloroform. I'm paraphrasing, but link should be easy to find, since it's relatively recent.

As you said, though, they couldn't prove that, could they? From JB's latest efforts, I think they might pursue the "kidnappers did it" defense once again. Those invisible kidnappers have a lot to answer for, just like Donnie...

JMHO

I agree. The family has been anticipating the types of questions Casey will face if Caylee is found. Cindy recently claimed that the nanny had a key to the house because she must have known that something from the house was either missing, or replaced around the time of the murder. Cindy is as much of a schemer as Casey - no doubt of that, in my opinion.

krystal_klear

12-23-2008, 01:35 AM

from the heart Bratlings :rose::rose:

Freefall

12-23-2008, 01:36 AM

I was banned for two days for commenting on Baez' claim that Casey now spends most of her time in her cell praying, by suggesting that God should strike the newly pious Casey with lightning bolts from heaven due to all the lies she "swore to God" were true. So I may get banned again for explaining why I was previously banned, and thus I cannot be relied upon to explain in the future.

As far as turning down prior deals, that will not be admissible evidence in court. As a matter of public policy, negotiations are NEVER admissible because otherwise no party would ever negotiate.

However, you are completely correct that it will count against her in a very real way. I found myself wondering if the "strategic" decisions being made were a matter of regional difference (for example, California has unique alimony and community property laws that affect how lawyers characterize the relative contribution of the spouses to the marital estate - you get more money by exaggerating the other spouse's contribution and abilities which is contrary to how other states assign assets to the spouse responsible for earning it) but then felt vindicated when the president of the Florida criminal bar association basically got on TV and said he didn't understand why they were doing what they were doing, either.

The best part of a missing person murder case is that the body is missing so you can argue that the missing person is still alive and thus not "murdered." Plea bargaining usually involves giving up the uncertainty of a guilty verdict in exchange for less punishment. In the Anthony case, Caylee's missing body and the various "sightings" created a certain amount of "uncertainty" of conviction that could have been traded for a lessening of charges. Now that bargaining chip is gone.

I don't see how the defense will introduce evidence of an "accidental" death short of having Casey take the stand. IMO having Casey testify on her own behalf will be a complete disaster for the defense. She has no credibility whatsoever. I hear Baez say that being a liar does not make her a murder, and all I can think is that he does not realize that in the minds of the jurors, not to mention the jury instructions about willfully false testimony, that is EXACTLY what will happen i.e. liar = murderer. The whole Anthony family and their supporters seem to feel that because Caylee is irretrievably gone and punishing Casey will not bring her back, there is no point in punishing Casey. I think a jury will hear the whole story and hate Casey, and punish her as much as they are able.

I spoke with one of the jurors in the Hans Reiser case, which also involved a missing body and extensive lying by the defendant. That juror told me that they almost immediately agreed that he had killed the victim and that they took very little time (less than a day) to agree on First Degree Murder. The juror told me that the only reason he didn't vote to sentence him to death was because that wasn't one of their options. (As is common in missing body murder cases, the prosecution did not seek the death penalty.) I don't really see Casey doing much better, and at this point, I expect her to do significantly worse since there is 1) a body and 2) evidence of premeditation vis-a-vis the computer searches. Every day I expect to hear that the prosecution has reconsidered its decision concerning seeking the death penalty, which it can do up until the jury is sworn so long as the defense is given adequate advance notice.

Another reason Casey is at a relative disadvantage to plea bargaining, is because her attorney and her family have been actively nasty towards law enforcement and the prosecutors. They have made it "personal" when it did not need to be. For example, Baez' comment at the hearing to compel production of the "tips/sightings" documents, to the effect that the DA should be investigated by the Florida state Attorney General for running a "scam" concerning preparation/copying costs, was inappropriate and needlessly insulting. What a contrast to Lenamon's pleasant, persuasive letter to the DA asking them to do the right thing by not seeking the death penalty against Casey, which was effective and successful! IMO it is very unfortunate for Casey that Lenamon is no longer on her team; he is the exactly the kind of low-key, stay-out-of-the-limelight-and-get-things-done kind of guy she needs.

Katprint
Whom you probably will not hear from if I get banned again for this post
Always only my own opinions

Awesome post! Thank you.

enigma

12-23-2008, 01:39 AM

I don't think he did. OR
It may just be that she was carrying the body of a dead child out of that house. She had the kid covered up with a sheet or blankie of some sort and indicated to George that Caylee was asleep. Placed her in the car seat, (hence her dolly laying in the seat), until she got some where else to move her into the trunk.

If that's the case, then George must have realised what he saw that day, when Caylee went "missing" and when they found the car with the decomposition odour still strong in it... I say IF.

JMHO

krystal_klear

12-23-2008, 01:39 AM

<=Quote from Bird: "My baby son died in the hospital the day he was born, and for months afterwards I kept thinking I still felt him moving inside me. " end snipped quote.

from my heart to yours, Bird :rose::rose:

Jester

12-23-2008, 01:40 AM

YW!

Yes, casey already determined what she thought was an appropriate way to pay respect to her precious daughter's remains, nothing fancy...just a couple of trash bags and some duct tape.

One could buy a lot of trash bags and duct tape with $2000, but in all respect, perhaps Casey should consider cremation. Perhaps the jail would allow her to keep the ashes in her cell. This would give Casey the opportunity she needs to honor her murdered child.

Jester

12-23-2008, 01:42 AM

And left it there to rot?:eek:

It would not surprise me. Cindy and Lee made it clear long ago that they were more concerned with covering for Casey than finding Caylee. Sure they talked the talk, but Cindy is a pro at talking the talk when it comes to making excuses for Casey.

MerriMent

12-23-2008, 01:42 AM

Thanks for your post, Katprint.

IMO, the defense already started to build the foundations for an "accident" defense after Casey was charged with murder, when they released the statement in which they say that if Caylee is dead, it is most certainly an accident, probably an overdose of chloroform. I'm paraphrasing, but link should be easy to find, since it's relatively recent.

As you said, though, they couldn't prove that, could they? From JB's latest efforts, I think they might pursue the "kidnappers did it" defense once again. Those invisible kidnappers have a lot to answer for, just like Donnie...

JMHO

I think SODDI is more likely. It was Cindy's car. Still no proof that it was Casey who put the chloroform in the car or Caylee for that matter.

Jester

12-23-2008, 01:44 AM

Not sure if they would go back to the woods with so much media attention, but actually hoping the area would remain a spot that 'had already been searched'.

Lee could easily have stopped by late at night and checked the area in August, around the same time that the trash bag was first discovered. I'm sure they were very happy to know that the area had been cleared and no further searches were planned at their "pet cemetery."

enigma

12-23-2008, 01:46 AM

I would think so.

Well all mine are if's, and's, butt's. LOL

Yeah, I know... mine too. Except I don't think there's any if's or butt's (he, he) about who killed Caylee...

JMHO

Jester

12-23-2008, 01:47 AM

Why didn't she just tell the investigators? I don't believe she wanted anyone to find the baby. She had such ample opportunity over a long period of time to tell so many people and refused.

After the renowned Tennessee Body Farm ID'd Caylee's DNA in the trunk and proved she was dead in the trunk it seems an uphill chore to continue to pretend. I'm sure it was a more comfortable place in their minds to think the baby was still alive tho.

If Casey did more than hint to her family about where to look, and outright told the authorities where she left her murdered daughter, then she would have a difficult time claiming she was innocent. She needed someone else to find the body so she could play the victim. Her family probably has known for a long time where Caylee was, but maybe their denial was stronger than their curiosity.

need2no

12-23-2008, 01:48 AM

One could buy a lot of trash bags and duct tape with $2000, but in all respect, perhaps Casey should consider cremation. Perhaps the jail would allow her to keep the ashes in her cell. This would give Casey the opportunity she needs to honor her murdered child.

Jail officials have stated casey is allowed to display photos on the shelf in her cell, they also stated she has no pics of her daughter on that shelf...I doubt she would want the remains either, even if it was allowed.

Jester

12-23-2008, 01:48 AM

I don't know what happened to Caylee, how or why she died. Casey and Casey alone knows. Maybe it was pre meditated murder, maybe it wasn't. I rely on the jury to listen to both sides, evaluate the evidence, both inculpatory and exculpatory, apply the facts to relevant law, and then make a fair and just decision.

How does the duct tape fit into the "accidental drowning in the swimming pool" theory?

Bird

12-23-2008, 01:49 AM

I think you guys are really onto something re Lee's question, "Is it the same as last time?" which I've long wondered about. It seemed as if shortly after that exchange Lee had dropped off the map, almost as if Casey had told him in code that Caylee was dead, or even where her body was. The hamster...maybe. Or was it something else she did that he kept secret for her?

Jester

12-23-2008, 01:52 AM

Are you so sure, that you can back it up with a link?

Back up my belief that Lee could have stopped by the "pet cemetery" late at night and had a look around to see if he could find Caylee? No. I'm trying to understand this senseless, premeditated murder, and possible culpability of the extended family; no more, no less.

MerriMent

12-23-2008, 01:52 AM

I'll pass that along to my son, now 26 years old. Its possible, I guess, that he would have prefered to be raised in a county facility by strangers, because his mother forgot to lock a door once when he was 2.

Your toddler son left your house and was wandering into a busy street due to YOUR lack of supervision and you think the worst outcome for HIM would be raised in foster care? imo, you're very lucky someone intervened and saved your child from harm's way. I am not surprised you're so willing to minimize Casey Anthony's actions. Caylee would be better off raised by strangers. At least she'd still be alive and safe.

happygert

12-23-2008, 01:52 AM

from the heart Bratlings :rose::rose:

Thanks for your post...Here's the difference between you and The A's you knew your daughter wasn't capable of taking care of your Grandson so you did what was best for him.. From Casey's own mouth talking to Lee she said mom thinks i'm unfit and maybe I am.
If CA really thought that why didn't she take action and get custody of Caylee. IMO she just tried to control Casey by threatening but never taking action on it. IMO you dont go from devoted, doting ,loving mom to murder.

krystal_klear

12-23-2008, 01:54 AM

special thanx for your understanding post PROPOS :)

Jester

12-23-2008, 01:54 AM

Jail officials have stated casey is allowed to display photos on the shelf in her cell, they also stated she has no pics of her daughter on that shelf...I doubt she would want the remains either, even if it was allowed.

Maybe part of her sentence should require that she care for the cremated remains of her murdered daughter. When she's old and haggardly, she can enjoy the memories of her loving "snot head."

Jester

12-23-2008, 01:55 AM

In the off chance that you are being serious, prisoners aren't allowed to keep human remains in their cells.

Thanks. I don't know anything about prison life.

Pruddennce

12-23-2008, 01:56 AM

Others question whether or not George really saw Casey and Caylee the morning of the 16th. It's not like George has always stated the truth, there have been some contradictory statements.

contradictory is an understatement.

during Cindy's interview she was confronted and chastised by LE about her behaviour in public, with the media, regarding this case. she was lying to them and lying to the public.

George, was mea culpa regarding his personal relationship with his wife and didnt hold back talking about it, *Ill tell ya guys*, blah blah in his FBI/LE interviews, doing the 'good 'ole boy, I was on the job, yada yada....knows the smell of death..... and then this: 12/11

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/12/11/child.remains.found/#cnnSTCVideo

George says: LE was just closing the book on this case.....and be done with it....further states it was garbage in the car, not decomp

George is asked: where do you think she is????? his answer: hopefully with a loving family...what? those same people he claimed months ago were dangerous people?

Cindy states LE thinks it was an accident.

thats a good twist: that was LE trying to get to the truth - of course they are going to play down the word MURDER....SUGGESTING it might be an accident...not that they THINK it was an accident. its a fairly common tactic. and Cindy took the ball and ran with it as fact.

LE was attempting to obtain the truth from anyone, SOMEONE to tell where her remains were. and why she is deceased.

all sorts of information DID arise from the investigation and IMO, its going to be huge as to the two recent searches of the Anthony home.

IMO

best regards,
Pru

PROPROS

12-23-2008, 01:56 AM

Extremely poor judgement, with severe consequences. I can't explain her behavior. Its not my job, thankfully. But I think accident is plausable, especially in light of the undetermined ruling, as well as the many accounts from her friends, that she was a loving mother.Well if she was indeed a loving mother,I would "assume" that sometime (within in 31 days) that her poor judgement would have cleared enough for her to realize that her only child was decomposing in a snake filled woods. Loving mother...I just can't buy it.mo

Bird

12-23-2008, 01:56 AM

Oh I think so too. Very good and informative post Katprint. Sounds like you have some understanding of legalities. It's apparent you've followed this case. I wish I had more time to devote to it. I don't know all the lawyers on her team. But I so agree with your statement about the one that you said was low keyed and gets things done. That's what's really required. I've been a bit put off by those who have taken the opposite approach.

I too think jurors look at obvious proven lies and outlandish stories while hiding the body of the victim. As a juror I don't know how you could avoid considering proven lies by a defendant.

ITA--good post, Adalena. And Katprint, that was a most informative and interesting post. I'd hate to see you get banned, you add so much to the conversation.

enigma

12-23-2008, 02:00 AM

That does sound like a clue given the location of where the baby was found. Ah Casey always so vague no? Why didn't she just come out and cough up where she put the baby? I doubt the jury will cut her much slack since she waited all this time and still continued to lie. It's in the indictment they checked out all her stories and they were found to be all lies.

She mumbles so much in those jailhouse tapes I can't half understand what words she's mumbling and running together. Thanks for the link and the quote.

You're welcome, and Jester.

The other strange thing about it is why would Casey tell them to look in familiar places, when supposedly the kidnappers could have taken Caylee anywhere? Their immediate neighbourhood, particularly places "familiar" to her mother, to their family, would be the last place a kidnapper would take the child! Unless they desperately wanted to get caught...

JMHO

Bird

12-23-2008, 02:02 AM

Gotta go now--brain fatigue.

Goodnite
:seeya:

Me, too, Aame--I'm heading off to nodland myself. Thanks to everyone for a great discussion. What an interesting and diverse group we have here. It's better by far than anywhere else. Wish me luck in getting to sleep this time--maybe tonight will be easier because I finally admitted that the image of Caylee in that trashbag has been keeping me awake for a week. Sometimes it helps to just say it...but there was nowhere else I felt comfortable admitting it but here. Thanks, all--and good night!

MerriMent

12-23-2008, 02:08 AM

krystal_klear

12-23-2008, 02:08 AM

How sad, Krystal. You've been through such a lot, and like Bratlings, your suffering made you more human rather than less, which says a lot about you. What an impossible situation it is to have a child who becomes a stranger--but what a great blessing for your grandson (and for you) that you were there to reach out to him before he could end up neglected or even, as you say, dead like little Caylee.

I worked for a number of years with mental health patients in an in-patient clinical setting, trying to help them sort through their issues by writing about them, and I've dealt with a number of people who were diagnosed with "antisocial personality disorder," or sociopathy. These people are lacking the basic human responses that most of us take for granted, and they can't relate at all to the needs of anyone else, even their own children. They have no conscience or sense of obligation to anyone else in their lives, and their own most superficial desires trump anyone else's most desperate and essential needs--a sociopath could, for example kill a child who was in the way of her fun, and feel completely justified. I'm not saying that's what happened because I don't know. But Casey immediately seemed like a sociopath to me when I read about the web of lies she'd told, about the thefts from people who trusted her, etc. And even more so when I began watching those jailhouse visits, the way she manipulates and controls her family, lies reflexively and has patterns of speech commonly associated with lying. It's unsettling to watch her. Harder yet to imagine Caylee's final hours, however death came to her. Accident or intentional, the responsibility inevitably lies with her mother. And our wish that Casey would just break down and tell the truth is not likely to happen, not at all. People with her behavior patterns rarely have a breakthrough--they just keep on with the masquerade because they believe they're smarter than anyone else.

Wow, you sure do understand this type of personality disorder. I so agree with all of the points that you made, as I have lived with a daughter that fits this type of behavior. The sociopathic style of thought makes it easier to do whatever they feel like at that moment, without conscience to haunt them afterwards.

It is unknown whether there will ever be a plea in Casey's case, as I see it. If she is sociopathic, she could go on believing all of her "stories" about what happened to darling Caylee. With this type of pathology, we may never know what really happened, as Casey could have "deluded" herself into a different truth-One that she can make believe would work in her own psyche.

MerriMent

12-23-2008, 02:12 AM

need2no

12-23-2008, 02:13 AM

Well if she was indeed a loving mother,I would "assume" that sometime (within in 31 days) that her poor judgement would have cleared enough for her to realize that her only child was decomposing in a snake filled woods. Loving mother...I just can't buy it.mo

That statement about everyone thought she was a loving mother doesn't mean much IMO. First of all Caylee was not around her friends that often, and the current group of friends such as Ricardo, Amy, TonE, etc. only knew casey for a few months. Frankly it shouldn't have been too difficult for her to fake it for those brief times she had Caylee around, especially since she didn't have the additional stresses of working full time, supporting herself and a child, or even the complete physical responsibility for Caylee.

Also when someone brings this up it makes me think of people like John Wayne Gacy who hosted street parties, entertained children dressed as a clown, was active and respected in his community....and later it was discovered he raped and murdered over 30 boys.

MerriMent

12-23-2008, 02:14 AM

The worse outcome would have been a car running him over. I think everyone was capable of figuring that out. I think I expressed the luck aspect in my original post. What I did say, was that if I asked my son, would he have thought his life would have been better if the lady who brought him to my door, hadn't, for whatever reason, considered the event to be isolated, unfortunate, accidental, and a lesson well learned. I have never minimized Casey's actions, unless you consider a want of a fair trial, and judgment based on facts, instead of rumor and emotion, minimizing her actions. If the jury decides she is guilty of intentional pre meditated murder, so be it.

As far as Caylee being better off with strangers, I don't believe she would want to be with anyone other than her loving grandparents. And I don't think she would see things in the same light as you do.

fyi: Casey is not charged with "intentional pre-meditated murder."

PROPROS

12-23-2008, 02:16 AM

That bothered me so much. Knowing that baby was out there somewhere by herself. It's just so over the top. Love doesn't act like that. She's covering for herself by hiding the baby. Snake filled and under water. I'm positive the jury won't buy it either. ITA.I am also positive that no jury will buy Casey as a loving mother who had a lapse of good judgement. It literally makes me sick to see the pics of her at Fusion. I wouldn't care if she was my daughter, sister, friend or mother. I could not support the actions of "anyone", who could be so cruel and cold towards their own flesh and blood or any child for that matter.mo

enigma

12-23-2008, 02:19 AM

all sorts of information DID arise from the investigation and IMO, its going to be huge as to the two recent searches of the Anthony home.

IMO

best regards,
Pru

<above post snipped for brevity>...............

I agree. We know that C&G's attorney said it was shoes and clothes belonging to Casey and Caylee. I guess the inference is obvious...

I'm waiting for the toxicology results... I wonder when they'll be completed and whether they will be released...

I agree with Dr Baden that the ME calling it a homicide by unknown means is premature. They've asked for toxicology, the ME should have waited until the results were ready before making that pronouncement re "unknown" means.

JMHO

enigma

12-23-2008, 02:22 AM

I swear you've been reading my mind because the exact same things have popped out at me. Zanny would have no way of knowing about what was familiar to Cindy. And remember, Cindy and George said they didn't want to say more about the kidnappers out of fear Caylee would be harmed. So there is plenty more to this that we haven't been told.

Exactly! I've no doubt about that at all. Never did. IMO, for everything we know, there's an equal or greater amount of information we don't. (likely the latter)

MerriMent

12-23-2008, 02:26 AM

I'm not sure when you got here tonight, but I have been posting with the flow of discussion. I suppose without the benefit of reading the foundational posts, it would be confusing and misunderstood. I think we were talking about the varying degrees of murder/homicide, including intentional pre meditated , accidental, negligent..etc. Hope that clears things up.

"accidental homicide" doesn't exist as a charge. Deaths ruled accidental are not prosecuted.

need2no

12-23-2008, 02:28 AM

I agree. We know that C&G's attorney said it was shoes and clothes belonging to Casey and Caylee. I guess the inference is obvious...

I'm waiting for the toxicology results... I wonder when they'll be completed and whether they will be released...

I agree with Dr Baden that the ME calling it a homicide by unknown means is premature. They've asked for toxicology, the ME should have waited until the results were ready before making that pronouncement re "unknown" means.

JMHO

C & G's attorney also said he wouldn't address the other items taken, at this time...so obviously it was more than just shoes and clothes belonging to casey and Caylee.

I've wondered if announcing the homicide by undetermined means and stating it is unlikely tox. studies will change this was just stated to sort of downplay the potential results for casey and her defense team. In other words to make them relax a bit thinking the cause of her death probably can't be determined...even though that's not really what LE expects.....or even already knows.

MerriMent

12-23-2008, 02:32 AM

Don't you think the way this victim was found tells a lot about the killer and the degree of murder?

To me accidental would be if I was drag racing and t-boned someone in an intersection and killed somebody.

If I then stole that dead victim away, double trash bagged them, hid them away & lied for 6 mos. about where I hid their bodies that would be another level added to hitting them in the intersection.

As a juror I would most certainly make a distinction between those two scenarios. Without reading Florida code for murder(s), I'll bet the law makes a distinction also.

The hiding of the body, and the lying are willful acts. The drag racing would be willful too, but I didn't MEAN to kill anyone when I was having a little sport racing on the streets.

I don't know how this case the way this baby was found could be considered accidental by any stretch.

Two guys hurting each other in a hockey dad fight, would fit another lesser criteria. but not this case.

There is nothing "accidental" about intentionally giving a child chloroform or Zanax or whatever else.

PROPROS

12-23-2008, 02:32 AM

I think she was acting to make people think she was nice, too. There's a saying that goes something like You are who you are in the dark

Consider some of the famous murder cases; John Wayne Gacy, Dennis Rader - BTK, Gary Ridgeway - Green River Killer.

They were all out there in society. Gacy photographed with the president of the united states' wife & business owner, Rader president of his church and worked for the city, Ridgeway lived and worked at the same place & married to the same woman for 22 yrs. Jeff Dahmer said he'd sit on his Grandmother's sofa on Thanksgiving Day with his family beside him and think about his crimes and his canibalism and his victims and that his Father beside him nor his Grandmother in the kitchen knew he ate killed and ate human beings. He outright said he acted at those times. Him talking like that with full knowledge he had given himself over to evil should be an eye opener to anyone. I truely believe people give themselves over to evil. As a conscious choice. Night Stalker Richard Ramirez verified that. That he chose to be evil. That he believed in good and evil existed & that he willfully chose evil for himself of his own free will.

They were killers. Whenever they weren't killing they were acting. This young woman no matter how pretty and delicate she might appear. She is evil and she chose it of her own free will. I believe that. Course I'll want to see the evidence in court. But right now with news reports that's what I believe about her. She's as dangerous as all those other male murderers. If she weren't caught she would kill again. They need to put her away. I think they know that better than I.This post rings so true to me. My sister dated Kenneth Bianchi (The Hillside Strangler) a couple of times. She said he was very nice,normal,smart decent looking guy. Well, as it turns out she was very lucky. One of her best friends and a casual friend of mine, were murdered by him. Needless to say, people are not always what they seem to be and true evil does walk among us. mo

Katprint

12-23-2008, 02:36 AM

Most jury instructions specifically state if they believe any testimony to be a lie they can disregard part or all of it. In a sense her lies will be used against her as testimony regardless of if she takes the stand or not.
There are two parts to that:

FIRST, in general, all statements by the defendant are admissible, even statements which were not testimony under oath. Casey's lies will be admissible to show her state of mind i.e. her GUILTY state of mind caused her to lie about what had actually happened. Per the Florida Supreme Court's standard jury instructions http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/jury_instructions/instructions.shtml# :

"3.9(e) DEFENDANT'S STATEMENTS

A statement claimed to have been made by the defendant outside of court has been placed before you. Such a statement should always be considered with caution and be weighed with great care to make certain it was freely and voluntarily made.

Therefore, you must determine from the evidence that the defendant's alleged statement was knowingly, voluntarily, and freely made.

In making this determination, you should consider the total circumstances, including but not limited to

1. whether, when the defendant made the statement, [he] [she] had been threatened in order to get [him] [her] to make it, and

2. whether anyone had promised [him] [her] anything in order to get [him] [her] to make it.

If you conclude the defendant's out of court statement was not freely and voluntarily made, you should disregard it."

SECOND, when any witness (including the defendant who may testify as a witness in his/her own defense) testifies, they can be "impeached" by prior sworn or unsworn inconsistent statements as well as evidence to the contrary. Per the Florida Supreme Court's standard jury instructions:

"3.9 WEIGHING THE EVIDENCE

It is up to you to decide what evidence is reliable. You should use your common sense in deciding which is the best evidence, and which evidence should not be relied upon in considering your verdict. You may find some of the evidence not reliable, or less reliable than other evidence.

You should consider how the witnesses acted, as well as what they said. Some things you should consider are:

1. Did the witness seem to have an opportunity to see and know the things about which the witness testified?

2. Did the witness seem to have an accurate memory?

3. Was the witness honest and straightforward in answering the attorneys' questions?

4. Did the witness have some interest in how the case should be decided?

5. Does the witness's testimony agree with the other testimony and other evidence in the case?

The instructions covered under paragraphs numbered 6 through 10, inclusive, are not common to all cases. These numbered paragraphs should be included only as required by the evidence.

6. Has the witness been offered or received any money, preferred treatment, or other benefit in order to get the witness to testify?

7. Had any pressure or threat been used against the witness that affected the truth of the witness's testimony?

8. Did the witness at some other time make a statement that is inconsistent with the testimony [he] [she] gave in court?

9. Was it proved that the witness had been convicted of a crime?

10. Was it proved that the general reputation of the witness for telling the truth and being honest was bad?

You may rely upon your own conclusion about the witness. A juror may believe or disbelieve all or any part of the evidence or the testimony of any witness."

Katprint
Always only my own opinions

MerriMent

12-23-2008, 02:36 AM

Even if it were it wouldnt' apply to this case. A baby double bagged in trash bags in the woods for 5 mos. with the mother proven lying.

plus the chloroform lookup and in the trunk. No way would a jury conclude "accident." Casey was charged before the body was ever found. The charges are proper. Not an accident.

Jester

12-23-2008, 02:37 AM

You're welcome, and Jester.

The other strange thing about it is why would Casey tell them to look in familiar places, when supposedly the kidnappers could have taken Caylee anywhere? Their immediate neighbourhood, particularly places "familiar" to her mother, to their family, would be the last place a kidnapper would take the child! Unless they desperately wanted to get caught...

JMHO

It wouldn't surprise me if Casey saw this whole story unfold in a different way. She's a schemer and a liar, and she would have thought this through. She researched missing children in March, so she had lots of time to anticipate all the possible outcomes.

Didn't she also say early on, maybe to her boyfriend Anthony L, that if Caylee was never found, guess who gets blamed? Maybe, in her scenario, Caylee had to be found, and the duct tape was supposed to suggest that it was a stranger abduction. Maybe her family was supposed to keep silent about that being a childhood play area, but at the same time suggest that investigators look in the area.

Maybe Casey's world was so small that she didn't realize she disposed of her child in her own back yard, and truly thought that she needed to quickly play the grieving mom so she could get back to partying - before it all unraveled.

Elfinrow

12-23-2008, 02:37 AM

Jester

12-23-2008, 02:39 AM

jeez. Casey was an actresss playing the part of loving mother. Jesse said tonight she wanted to be a photographer because she worked for Kodak. Talk about delusional.

It's a good thing she wasn't a floor sweeper at a hospital, she might think that's all she needed to be a brain surgeon.

MerriMent

12-23-2008, 02:39 AM

Except that the ME didn't conclude that the child died as a result of anything you list in your post. Your pre trial opinion may not be shared by everyone, now.. or after evidence has been presented.

Intentionally exposing a child to an illegal drug IS a crime. The ME didn't have to find it for her to be charged and prosecuted for that crime.

Elfinrow

12-23-2008, 02:41 AM

plus the chloroform lookup and in the trunk. No way would a jury conclude "accident." Casey was charged before the body was ever found. The charges are proper. Not an accident.

I dont think this was an accident either. It's pretty interesting though to go back and read her txt msgs to amy at this point. I want to see those pages without the redacted txts. Its really driving me nuts not being able to read the whole thing. I saved three different forms of the txts in this case. All three have portions that are redacted and only one has most of the conversations not in order. I think her computer forensics gives the best insight into the mind and actions of Casey.

Katprint

12-23-2008, 02:42 AM

Does anyone have any information that confirms this duct tape around Caylee's head? I think the nancy grace show has gone with it a few times as greta has but its so hard to discuss this case at this point without knowing the autopsy results.

Dr. G's statement helps but is not the final word, her report will be as will the FBIs. I wonder if they found any chloroform in her tooth? I found a good article today on chloroform leaving traces in teeth so I am putting it here.

http://www.arcadia.edu/files/Academic/Undergrad/UG-Programs/Sci/BiologyDept/BI_EMES-bethany.pdf
I interpreted the article as discussing a method which used chloroform (a solvent) as one of the ingredients in a solution to dissolve and remove DNA from teeth for DNA sampling, and NOT a method of determining chloroform exposure based on traces of chloroform left on the teeth. OTOH I'm a lawyer not a scientist.

Katprint
Always only my own opinions

PROPROS

12-23-2008, 02:43 AM

It's a good thing she wasn't a floor sweeper at a hospital, she might think that's all she needed to be a brain surgeon.(LOL) that reminded me of the conversation that she has in the jail video with C&G...She says she has been thinking about what she wants to do for work (in the future).....Here her daughter is supposedly missing and she is planning her future career!mo

MerriMent

12-23-2008, 02:45 AM

Accidental deaths resulting from negligence or wreckless indifference most certainly will be prosecuted, as will manslaughter.

Negligence and wreckless indifference cause deaths but the deaths are not ruled "accidental" if investigated by the ME.

Elfinrow

12-23-2008, 02:45 AM

Accidental deaths resulting from negligence or wreckless indifference most certainly will be prosecuted, as will manslaughter.

I think that so many wanted to believe this was a "missing child" case. So many tried hard to believe in the face of mounting CE and then trace evidence until no longer could most look at the evidence without realizing that this was murder in the 1st degree. Intentional. I think the jury will line up the evidence in this case side by side and do their own timeline like many of us have done. And when they do, the mountain of evidence will be so overwhelming they will return with murder in the 1st LWOP.

Possibly the Death Penalty. FL seems to be more willing to actually use it.
good for florida! All minutia set aside it will be clear to any jury. This is not an accidental death. She tampered with this body several times and there is so much proof of that it's overwhelming.

need2no

12-23-2008, 02:47 AM

I think it was stated by the Medical Examiner as a matter of fact. You're right in saying it won't downplay the seriousness or the evidence against Casey. I don't know about florida, but in CA they don't need a cause if they can probe premeditated murder. That was so in Laci Peterson and Connor's murders. They couldn't tell how she died because of the time lapse from when she was killed. Didn't matter.

IIRC Dr. G said she didn't expect the cause of death to be changed from undetermined even after the tox. results come back...something about the levels. While that many very well be an absolutely true statement of fact in her expert opinion, I 'think' it's just possible it could also be a delay tactic to relax the defense team. But of course I am only speculating, being the skeptic I am. :smile:

And you are correct...they don't have to prove how she died, but it wouldn't hurt, and it sure would clear up some things in this case,...so I'm praying they will be able to determine from the toxicology science, and I hope we hear something soon.

Nellie

12-23-2008, 02:49 AM

BobbisAngel

12-23-2008, 02:51 AM

Well its simply astonishes me that there are people in NW Florida who didn't hear about this case on the news 6 months ago ,5.4.3.2.1 month ago , hence I live in the smallest little place you can imagine in Florida and it is in your face morning ,noon and night literally its the only thing people talk about ! I'd be curious as to the population there in NW ...

It really won't matter if people have heard of the case or not or even if they have followed it. The thing the judge and attorneys will want to know is if they will be able to base an opinion on the facts of the case alone...the ones they hear in court plus the DNA of course.

Elfinrow

12-23-2008, 02:52 AM

I interpreted the article as discussing a method which used chloroform (a solvent) as one of the ingredients in a solution to dissolve and remove DNA from teeth for DNA sampling, and NOT a method of determining chloroform exposure based on traces of chloroform left on the teeth. OTOH I'm a lawyer not a scientist.

Katprint
Always only my own opinions

That's correct ! Her DNA in this case is everything. Her paternal dna, essential.

I found it so interesting that they sent very little to the FBI but what they chose to send, spoke volumes. Dr G was pretty clear: They May Not be able to find enough trace evidence to show drugs in her system at this point of degradation. May Not. Maybe Luck will be on Caylee's side. It has been so far. Her body is going to tell us what happened.

I think that tonight I am really wondering what the purpose was to wrap her head in duct tape. Was it to put her head back together? Was her skull fractured? Did she try to put her head back together or did she try to stop the purge from coming out of her body? We just dont know yet. I wonder what they will find in her teeth and her hair.
Besides her Dna!

I dont think that Casey was smart enough to sucessfully make chloroform. She liked to cook but she surely was not a scientist!! Not a chemist either!

Jester

12-23-2008, 02:53 AM

(LOL) that reminded me of the conversation that she has in the jail video with C&G...She says she has been thinking about what she wants to do for work (in the future).....Here her daughter is supposedly missing and she is planning her future career!mo

She must have looked at the jailhouse conversations as finally having that "sit down" she wanted with her parents. She was finally able to admit that she wasn't working, and wanted to discuss career options with mom and dad. What a foolish woman she is. Floor washing, or laundry, is probably something she can excel at with her current life choices. She can fantasize that she's the warden.

Jester

12-23-2008, 02:56 AM

MerriMent

12-23-2008, 02:57 AM

This might be helpful to some who are confused about accidental deaths vs. homicide. Caylee Anthony's manner of death has been ruled a homicide. It was not ruled an accident.

There are six categories of manner of death:

1. Natural: the death is a consequence of natural disease

2. Accidental: unintended and essentially unavoidable death, not by a natural, suicidal or homicidal manner
3. Suicidal: Death caused by self, with some degree of conscious intent.

4. Homicidal: death caused by another human [check out types & degrees]

5. Undetermined: not enough evidence, yet or ever, to choose the manner of death

6. Unclassified: too complex to classify; it either stays in that category or has to be clarified and declared in a court of law (rare).

http://suicideandmentalhealthassociationinternational.org/certification.html

Elfinrow

12-23-2008, 02:57 AM

I agree with you about it being brought into the trial however,

I think the defense can show that the defendant is a habitual liar before Caylee ever went missing so her behavior wasn't unusual in regards to her normal personality....so because she lied it doesn't go to COG....basically she's lied about things that she didn't even have to lie about.....

of course a jury will have to decide.....

and just giving my take on how the defense might handle it.

I have to be honest I am having trouble finding indicators in her txts around June 9th on that show she committed a heinous crime. :shrug:
But I am sure looking. I have to keep reminding myself that she was lying all along so this was her normal fantasy life she lived, rather, did not live. The I'm going to work 1/2 shifts today, 6 on then home then 6 on. (fgs)
I have to keep reminding myself that she was very cunning, long before June. Reading her txts though and examining her on tape is a study in mental health. She is one for the "books" and records, for sure.
She will most likely never allow anyone to examine her unless she goes for an insanity defense. I think she is way too cocky to ever take this route.

BobbisAngel

12-23-2008, 02:59 AM

Unless the A's point their fingers @ Caylee's dad, the LE doesn't "owe" them anything. Even IF they don't point their fingers, LE doesn't "owe" them anything. Social Services or someone like that might push the issue, someone might go to court to have the courts push the issue, but it has no bearing on LE in any way whatsoever.

I don't understand why everyone is so interested in finding out who Caylee's dad is. It is to late for Caylee and really to late for the dad if he is alive and even knew that he had a daughter. Caylee is in heaven with the Lord and I don't know what purpose it would serve to find the dad now that Caylee is no longer with us. Caylee's dad doesn't have anything to do with the murder and he couldn't even be a witness to do with Casey and Caylee's lives. Personally, I think at this late stage it is better to just let things be. It strikes me as people just wanting an answer to who her dad is and nothing to do with Caylee as she isn't here to meet him or get to know him if that is what he may have wanted if he had known about her. I don't think Casey even knows who it is though and if she does she must not feel it is anyone's business including her familys.

need2no

12-23-2008, 03:01 AM

Does anyone remember when Casey was out on bail this last time and Baez wanted permission for her to "go search for her daughter".
I think she would have headed right for those woods! :ohmy:
I think it was "eating at her" and she wanted to get out and "check on the bag".

Lordy...so much as gone on in this case I had actually forgotten about that stupid request. I never could understand the plan at the time, and I still can't make sense of it...unless it was just to get her away from Cindy, and pretend to want to find Caylee. If they had 'stumbled' across Caylee in those woods how in the world would she have explained looking there in the first place? Oh...scratch that question...this is the girl who drug LE out to Universal and pranced down the hall to her make believe office where her make believe broken cell phone was located. Also the same girl who took LE to the apartment where she dropped Caylee off with the make believe nanny and the apartment has been vacant for 5 months.

enigma

12-23-2008, 03:01 AM

C & G's attorney also said he wouldn't address the other items taken, at this time...so obviously it was more than just shoes and clothes belonging to casey and Caylee.

I've wondered if announcing the homicide by undetermined means and stating it is unlikely tox. studies will change this was just stated to sort of downplay the potential results for casey and her defense team. In other words to make them relax a bit thinking the cause of her death probably can't be determined...even though that's not really what LE expects.....or even already knows.

Quite possible... Hopefully they do, but from a professional ethics viewpoint, would the ME make a statement re unknown cause, if it weren't so? I tend to think they wouldn't, but who knows?

I just think the cause/menas should not have been declared as "unknown" before the toxicology results are in, or else the ME should have qualified by saying "at this stage" or "pending the results of toxicological analysis" or something similar... Particularly since the ME had already stated that the tests had not yet been completed.

JMHO

Elfinrow

12-23-2008, 03:06 AM

Jesse Grund really tore me up. It seemed to me all along this family really loved this child so much, complete unconditional love.

He seems to truly be struggling and it takes a really good person to not attack back, which he has not done even though the Anthonys slandered his name and image in the media and with LE. Amazing to me!
Oh Bobbie you know it is just imperative to know her parentage. DNA is going to be this case mtDNA will be mainly but still I think they will try to determine who her father was. If anything maybe that person will stop the people who are profiting off of her death. Maybe he will not but I really do hope for that. Because he would be Next of Kin. Not the anthony's. Actually at this point Casey is her next of Kin no matter how much we all hate that.

Night all you smart posters! I've got elves to feed!

:rose:

enigma

12-23-2008, 03:07 AM

Does anyone remember when Casey was out on bail this last time and Baez wanted permission for her to "go search for her daughter".
I think she would have headed right for those woods! :ohmy:
I think it was "eating at her" and she wanted to get out and "check on the bag".

I certainly do! He asked for her to be allowed to visit places of interest to the case... At the time, I thought fo course she does, she's sick and tired of being in jail... a nice trip to all of those places where Caylee sightings presumably occurred would be just the ticket for a little holiday...

But maybe there was more to it than that... such as surreptitiously taking a peek at the burial site... I know she would not have been alone, that Baez would almost certainly accompany her, maybe even an LE rep, but they wouldn't know what she'd be looking for. It would be just another place among many that she wanted to look at...

Interesting thought.

JMHO

MerriMent

12-23-2008, 03:09 AM

Quite possible... Hopefully they do, but from a professional ethics viewpoint, would the ME make a statement re unknown cause, if it weren't so? I tend to think they wouldn't, but who knows?

I just think the cause/menas should not have been declared as "unknown" before the toxicology results are in, or else the ME should have qualified by saying "at this stage" or "pending the results of toxicological analysis" or something similar... Particularly since the ME had already stated that the tests had not yet been completed.

JMHO

because of the length of time the body was degrading and exposed to animals and elements, the pundits I heard don't believe the chloroform will show up on the tox screen. They still have the evidence from the computer and the trunk, though, so no need to wait. The ME had that evidence to consider.

Neffy

12-23-2008, 03:17 AM

http://law.justia.com/florida/codes/TitleXLVI/ch0782.html

782.03 Excusable homicide.--Homicide is excusable when committed by accident

Such as driving down the road icy conditions and cars veer out of control and someone dies in one of the vehicles as a result I'd imagine.

enigma

12-23-2008, 03:18 AM

That's correct ! Her DNA in this case is everything. Her paternal dna, essential.

I found it so interesting that they sent very little to the FBI but what they chose to send, spoke volumes. Dr G was pretty clear: They May Not be able to find enough trace evidence to show drugs in her system at this point of degradation. May Not. Maybe Luck will be on Caylee's side. It has been so far. Her body is going to tell us what happened.

I think that tonight I am really wondering what the purpose was to wrap her head in duct tape. Was it to put her head back together? Was her skull fractured? Did she try to put her head back together or did she try to stop the purge from coming out of her body? We just dont know yet. I wonder what they will find in her teeth and her hair.
Besides her Dna!

I dont think that Casey was smart enough to sucessfully make chloroform. She liked to cook but she surely was not a scientist!! Not a chemist either!

(bolding is mine)

I don't think so either not by a long shot. She didn't even know how to spell it - she spelled it phonetically in her first search!

That's why I posted before that *someone* knows where she got the chloroform.

If this person who sold or gave it to her did so unwittingly, when they finally realised what they had sold/given, to whom and how it was used, they would go in self-protect mode and, IMO, it would take a lot for them to come out and divulge it.

In a sense I don't blame them for not coming forward - they'd be immediately implicated. Just look at all the comments and suspicions now surrounding the utility worker who found Caylee.

But she got that chloroform from *SOMEONE*!

JMHO

Neffy

12-23-2008, 03:19 AM

because of the length of time the body was degrading and exposed to animals and elements, the pundits I heard don't believe the chloroform will show up on the tox screen. They still have the evidence from the computer and the trunk, though, so no need to wait. The ME had that evidence to consider.

The invisible Nanny, the trunk is really difficult to get past.

need2no

12-23-2008, 03:22 AM

It's good to have all types of thinking. I don't have a very skeptical mind. Maybe I should. I pretty much take things at face value and don't worry about stuff I can't know. Luckily my hubby is like you and makes me think of things I wouldn't otherwise. I don't know how things work behind the scenes. I've seen this medical examiner in some forensic files shows and I think she's very good. I respect her a lot. Course I respect anyone who can find answers and bring justice where it's due.

Most surely the jurors will wonder how the baby dies. Tennessee Body Farm & FBI already proved scientifically there were excessive amounts of chloroform in the trunk of the car. Much more than occurs by nature where a person is dead. A lot lot more, they said. That plus the tape on the baby's head when found. That gives me some notion of how the poor baby died. Duct tape on a small face would suffocate. Saw FBI Files tv show today where someone died like that. Saw Cold Case files where a 4 yr old boy (now grown to adulthood) saw two men murder his mother on the living room floor that way. Wrapped her head in duct tape. That causes death to have the airways cut off. Wouldn't take much for a small baby. Heck, it doesn't take much for an adult.

Unless anything comes out at trial about mode of death that's how I would think this baby died. The accused mother did searches on her computer on how to make chloroform then it's found in these inordinately high amounts in the trunk with the victim's hair and decomposed scalp from after death occured. So right now it looks like chloroform and duct tape is the way she was murdered. Either one by itself would cause death. Both together most certainly.

I would imagine the defense is working overtime and not displeased they can't say the cause of death from the bones examination. I don't think the pros is delaying on purpose. I think it really does take time for toxicology tests. But you might be right. Maybe they're playing cat and mouse games as it were and I'm just too practical to recognize it. Greta said something about keeping things close to the vest as long as possible. The pros doesn't want to show their hand too soon, etc. So that goes with your thinking on it. I'd make a lousy lawyer and a worse sleuth.

I've been following true crime for so long I learned to be a skeptic. I rarely take things at face value, have to stop and analyze first. As I'm sure you know things are often so different than what our understanding was when a case goes to trial, and it's not unheard of for both prosecution and defense to pull a fast one here and there to help their case as they deem necessary. Not any different than xperts who are willing to sway their testimony based on which side is paying them.

I watch Dr. G as often as possible and think I have seen every episode at least once, and I have the utmost respect for her and her work. I also see her as a very compassionate person who would willingly help LE if asked to do so for the benefit of justice for Caylee. But maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part that something will in fact be discovered through the tox. work.

I'm so glad to have a place to discuss these cases and get others opinions and viewpoints.

MerriMent

12-23-2008, 03:22 AM

Such as driving down the road icy conditions and cars veer out of control and someone dies in one of the vehicles as a result I'd imagine.

It would be investigated, blood tested for alcohol, etc but if it is truly an accident, it's not going to be prosecuted.

enigma

12-23-2008, 03:22 AM

She said she didn't imagine that would change. She didn't say it wouldn't change. ie; she doesn't expect that status to change but left it open-ended that it could. She doesn't expect it to change, is what she said.

Yes, you're quite right. She did say that.

I still think she should have been less definite than she sounded.

JMHO

Elfinrow

12-23-2008, 03:23 AM

CHLOROFORM
Chloroform is a colorless liquid used in making dyes, drugs, and pesticides. Acute exposure to chloroform can irritate and burn the skin, eyes, nose, and throat, and cause dizziness, lightheadedness, headache, confusion, and irregular heartbeat which may lead to death. Chloroform probably causes cancer and may cause birth defects. Chronic chloroform exposure can damage the skin, liver, kidneys, and nervous system.

You know what, I wanted to post this again because I think some were under the impression that if Caylee was given Chloroform that she just went to sleep. I dont think that was the case but clearly if she were given "home made" poison she would have died a very painful death I think.

I wonder if Casey Anthonys health issues will be used as her defense. Caylee was sick about a month before she died. Casey A also was sick and complained about illness in Txts but she lied about so much. I doubt there is any doctors records for her or Caylee. When they had said "she never got sick" that made me think there may not be medical records for caylee. Or Casey for that matter.

What could they have been looking for in the Anthony home in the last searches? I think there is so much we dont know yet. I hope she pleads out and there is no trial. She is vindictive I think so maybe she will take this to her grave.

Was anyone surprised to hear Jesse say that Casey complained about him loving Caylee, more than he loved her? Just like she complained about with Cindy? I never heard this before tonight. I will try to check back tomorrow to see what you think. Is he embellishing a bit? We never heard him use that as an excuse for the very reason they broke up before tonight. Did he mention that in his LE interview? I dont think he did.

Elfinrow

12-23-2008, 03:26 AM

I've been following true crime for so long I learned to be a skeptic. I rarely take things at face value, have to stop and analyze first. As I'm sure you know things are often so different than what our understanding was when a case goes to trial, and it's not unheard of for both prosecution and defense to pull a fast one here and there to help their case as they deem necessary. Not any different than xperts who are willing to sway their testimony based on which side is paying them.

I watch Dr. G as often as possible and think I have seen every episode at least once, and I have the utmost respect for her and her work. I also see her as a very compassionate person who would willingly help LE if asked to do so for the benefit of justice for Caylee. But maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part that something will in fact be discovered through the tox. work.

I'm so glad to have a place to discuss these cases and get others opinions and viewpoints.

I have hope, Im a huge fan of microbiology!! In this, in this science I have a lot of hope. From the Trace evidence to the dna to latent prints. Top that off with lies and her behavior, and bingo! Slam Dunk.
Thats why I think she will plead out. I think she hates her parents and she will never give them the satisfaction of answering their questions, ever. This will be her "punishment" of her parents. Possibly forever.

MerriMent

12-23-2008, 03:29 AM

I have hope, Im a huge fan of microbiology!! In this, in this science I have a lot of hope. From the Trace evidence to the dna to latent prints. Top that off with lies and her behavior, and bingo! Slam Dunk.
Thats why I think she will plead out. I think she hates her parents and she will never give them the satisfaction of answering their questions, ever. This will be her "punishment" of her parents. Possibly forever.

I doubt the DA offers a plea deal at this point. She'll carry this through to trial and then complain she was wrongfully convicted.

Neffy

12-23-2008, 03:34 AM

Yes, you're quite right. She did say that.

I still think she should have been less definite than she sounded.

JMHO

The is absolutely no way to scientifically or physically show cause of death. That's how she determines cause of death.

I totally and undisputably believe she did a thorough and meticulous job from what she had to work with.

The only thing that comes close is a theory of what happened. Of course the defense can make up a story. Still those won't change the cause of death because someones word is not proof. That's what may have happened but the theory perhaps derived from evidence is not proof and the defense may have an agenda for floating something by.

Either of these will never be entered as fact as a the cause of death.

need2no

12-23-2008, 03:36 AM

I have hope, Im a huge fan of microbiology!! In this, in this science I have a lot of hope. From the Trace evidence to the dna to latent prints. Top that off with lies and her behavior, and bingo! Slam Dunk.
Thats why I think she will plead out. I think she hates her parents and she will never give them the satisfaction of answering their questions, ever. This will be her "punishment" of her parents. Possibly forever.

I so agree...the final and ultimate revenge......I'm not telling.

Neffy

12-23-2008, 03:36 AM

I doubt the DA offers a plea deal at this point. She'll carry this through to trial and then complain she was wrongfully convicted.

Unless someone comes thru on the tip line :) What's up with that. I'm embarrased for them.

Neffy

12-23-2008, 03:39 AM

I so agree...the final and ultimate revenge......I'm not telling.

Boy, that sent {{{{shivers}}}}

enigma

12-23-2008, 03:41 AM

It wouldn't surprise me if Casey saw this whole story unfold in a different way. She's a schemer and a liar, and she would have thought this through. She researched missing children in March, so she had lots of time to anticipate all the possible outcomes.

Didn't she also say early on, maybe to her boyfriend Anthony L, that if Caylee was never found, guess who gets blamed? Maybe, in her scenario, Caylee had to be found, and the duct tape was supposed to suggest that it was a stranger abduction. Maybe her family was supposed to keep silent about that being a childhood play area, but at the same time suggest that investigators look in the area.

Maybe Casey's world was so small that she didn't realize she disposed of her child in her own back yard, and truly thought that she needed to quickly play the grieving mom so she could get back to partying - before it all unraveled.

Yes, she did... She was playing the martyr already, IMO...

JMHO

Neffy

12-23-2008, 03:42 AM

I'd go for "rage" if she'd left the house and killed her the night of the 15th following the fight with her mom. But George said she left the next day saying hi ho hi ho its off to work I go yet she really doesn't leave the area. That's not my idea of rage; that's calm premeditation. And it had to happen that afternoon, because she wasn't seen anywhere that night and the cell phone activity lulls that day.

See I don't trust what George said either.

enigma

12-23-2008, 03:46 AM

The is absolutely no way to scientifically or physically show cause of death. That's how she determines cause of death.

I totally and undisputably believe she did a thorough and meticulous job from what she had to work with.

The only thing that comes close is a theory of what happened. Of course the defense can make up a story. Still those won't change the cause of death because someones word is not proof. That's what may have happened but the theory perhaps derived from evidence is not proof and the defense may have an agenda for floating something by.

Either of these will never be entered as fact as a the cause of death.

Please, I NEVER suggested that she did a less than thorough job with what she had available!

As to a theory... it would be one based on fact. The presence of chloroform in the body would be one step. The amount of chloroform in the body would be another. If chloroform was administered over a period of time, it is another again. And so on...

That's all I'm suggesting.

JMHO

Neffy

12-23-2008, 03:50 AM

Please, I NEVER suggested that she did a less than thorough job with what she had available!

As to a theory... it would be one based on fact. The presence of chloroform in the body would be one step. The amount of chloroform in the body would be another. If chloroform was administered over a period of time, it is another again. And so on...

That's all I'm suggesting.

JMHO

From your post I can see you took me wrong. Never meant that you did. Just relaying my thoughts which I never finish.

As far as the chloroform and the tox tests. My gut says they'll be little on inconclusive. I will be shocked if anything comes back. Not because it wasn't used, but because of the condition and the elements that degraded it.

MerriMent

12-23-2008, 03:52 AM

She may not have even fully fleshed it out at the time, but killing the baby was the ultimate control of Cindy (who was over controlling of her and she resented it). Many pieces to this puzzle.

yes, many pieces but that one I believe is at the center of this tragedy. What a recipe for disaster. Force your high-school drop out daughter to give birth to a child she doesn't want, force her to keep the baby and then criticize her mothering skills. Casey may indeed had a mental break with reality after all that.

Neffy

12-23-2008, 03:56 AM

Oh I'm so glad to have this forum too. It's great to get other's input. What channel is Dr. G's show on? I so wish I could watch it. I've seen her on other cases that have been solved that she worked on.

You're so right that things change so much by the time a case goes to trial and the trial often turns out to be so different than we imagine. The way I approach it I suppose is to discuss the news as it is known on a weekly basis. I've been reading true crime for a long time too but I'm not good at solving mysteries. Back in the '50's all we had were library books and true crime magazine which was really short little magazine stories. Nothing compared to Ann Rule back then.

Agatha Christie for me! I have the entire collection, some I'd had to scour in little out of the way creepy book stores for. Granted not true crime but they are great books that give the word "spin" a whole new meaning.

That's why I compare to what we've found out now to what we've heard Casey or the others say in the past vids. Just like the Christie books. At the end when you find out "who dunnit" you go back or remember back and you can see that trail which led to the culprit. Clues were all there.

Looking back to what Casey's been saying and finding Caylee. It's no coincidence the syntax and "clues" she'd been dropping the whole time.

enigma

12-23-2008, 04:07 AM

From your post I can see you took me wrong. Never meant that you did. Just relaying my thoughts which I never finish.

As far as the chloroform and the tox tests. My gut says they'll be little on inconclusive. I will be shocked if anything comes back. Not because it wasn't used, but because of the condition and the elements that degraded it.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood.

I hope there's still enough in the bones to be significant. But hope springs eternal, s they say... It's really just that I hate for it to be up in the air like this, it's like unfinished business.

JMHO

MerriMent

12-23-2008, 04:08 AM

Okay.....I don't want to read the whole Code either.....but just figured I would help you out and not make you read through it.

I didn't say you had to discuss it.....was just being kind and showing you that in your link there was code regarding negligence.

yes but her point was in support of mine: excusable homicides (accidents) aren't prosecuted. A homicide resulting from culpable negligence isn't an excusable homicide.

(1) The killing of a human being by the act, procurement, or culpable negligence of another, without lawful justification according to the provisions of chapter 776 and in cases in which such killing shall NOT be excusable homicide or murder,

Neffy

12-23-2008, 04:11 AM

This news story says a statement by LE that they are not going to hinder the integrity of their case or anything that might come to be public knowledge in a legal proceeding. They have her hair they have her decomposed scalp cells AFTER death confirmed by DNA. They have excessive amounts of chloroform found in the trunk by the Tennessee Body Farm experts. I don't think there will be much room for doubt once they present this evidence in court during trial. [paraphrase]

http://www.wftv.com/news/17315205/detail.html

DNA Test Results Of Hair, Stain Found In Car Indicate Caylee Anthony Is Dead
Wednesday, August 27, 2008 – updated: 10:07 am EDT August 28, 2008

I was just looking thru these last night. My link is a report 2 hours prior to yours so yours is a follow up.

Results Show Body Decomposition In Anthony's Trunk

http://www.wesh.com/news/17314603/detail.html

"A prosecutor said that these odor results are admissible in court as forensic evidence, but he cautioned that they are nearly as strong as DNA evidence. DNA tests are not yet back on the hair and stain from Casey Anthony's car, although a source told WESH 2 News that the FBI has completed its review of the DNA evidence."

enigma

12-23-2008, 04:13 AM

MerriMent

12-23-2008, 04:15 AM

Don't they have planned parenthood in Florida? I don't think its possible to force someone to give birth and keep the child. Jesse said tonight that Casey told him there was no way she was going to carry a child for 9 months and then give it away. He couldn't force her to give it up any more than Cindy forced her to keep the baby. Casey made that choice.

Even in Florida, abortions are illegal after a certain point in the pregnancy so technically, yes, a pregnant teenager has no choice but to give birth if she doesn't have a legal abortion.

KioMarie has also spoken about Cindy's control of Casey.

enigma

12-23-2008, 04:17 AM

happygert

12-23-2008, 04:18 AM

I'm not arguing....

I don't know the argument you guys are having.....someone said Accidental Homicide like Negligence and Reckless Indifference.....

I say I don't think the those are considered accidental legally speaking......then she posted that....

I don't think that legally speaking negligence is considered accidental....

if it supports you then great, everything doesn't have to be a right and wrong in a discussion.....everything doesn't have to be an argument.

Anyway....sorry to offend anyone for quoting from the provided link.

it wasn't an accidental death ..Caylee had duct tape on her mouth

Neffy

12-23-2008, 04:21 AM

So true. I wish I had the time to do all the tedius stuff but honestly I'm lucky to get highlights. I'm usually doing something else or on my way out the door when they play those snippets. I can't understand a word they're saying on those jailhouse visits and no time to read the transcripts. It'll be interesting to see what they show the jury.

I wonder if Casey's parents will say they still believe the non-nanny story? That's a question on CNN now. A lot of the news stations are wondering much of the same things we are.

I don't have time to catch it all either and a big thanks to our links thread people Cury is phenominal! I can usually make them out but if I can't I just check out the time the link was posted then go to the threads on the board. Always a discussion on new info LOL

I've seen it reported that they are standing by the Zanny kidnapping. UNBELIEVABLE.

MerriMent

12-23-2008, 04:23 AM

I think there is a difference between ruling the death an accident and an accidental death resulting from negligence or wrecklessness. Phil Spectors case is a good example, for those who don't believe he intended to kill lana, but due to his wreckless behavior,her death resulted regardless of his intent, and he is being held to answer for his actions.

No, there is no ME ruling of "accidental" if the manner of death is a result of negligence or recklessness. I suggest you actually read some of the links.

Lana's death was ruled a homicide. It wasn't ruled an accident and Spector is being prosecuted for murder. He was a drunken lunatic. That's the right thing to do, not give him a free pass from the get-go.

MerriMent

12-23-2008, 04:28 AM

Did Casey's pregnancy begin in the 7th month? Or did she have the first three months to have an abortion if she so chose. Cindy didn't even know she was pregnant, until it was too late to get the abortion. The same goes for adoption, it wasn't Cindy's choice, it was Casey's. The only way Cindy could have forced Casey to keep a baby she didn't want, would be to keep her chained up without any access to the outside world, as if she was imprisoned. Even if CAsey had been a minor and given birth, she could not be forced to keep that child by anyone, including Cindy.

You don't know that. I'm just going by what KioMarie said. I have no idea when Casey learned she was pregnant nor do I know when Cindy learned about it. According to the friend who wanted to adopt the baby, it was Cindy's decision not Casey's so you'll have to debate it with her I guess. Fact is, Caylee is dead and her death wasn't an accident.

Neffy

12-23-2008, 04:29 AM

it wasn't an accidental death ..Caylee had duct tape on her mouth

I don't have the link but I distinctly remember Beary at the excavation site (sorry for lack of a better term) and he stated that as fact.

Haven't seen anything since that day although other news reports that day revolved around that.

The ME would not go into that but IMO, it probably was one of the pieces used to determine Caylee's death a homicide.

We'll hear this in court I'm sure.

MerriMent

12-23-2008, 04:33 AM

Scientifically speaking....what is the difference between cells whether hair or any other body part that are naturally shed from a live body and that of those same cells from a body that isn't alive? They both undergo the process of decomposition.

The term I heard used was "degrade" as in the combination of time and the weather would degrade the cells to the point they can't be tested.

Neffy

12-23-2008, 04:36 AM

... based on opinion, as opposed to a reasonable degree of medical certainty,supported by scientific evidence.

:confused:

Erm that would be cause of death by medical certainty,supported by scientific evidence not MANNER of death. Manner of death was most certainly a HOMICIDE.

We don't know all she used to make that determination but we can sure speculate as she's turned this back over to LE. That is not her place to disclose.

MerriMent

12-23-2008, 04:37 AM

... based on opinion, as opposed to a reasonable degree of medical certainty,supported by scientific evidence.

wrong. The ME also has the scientific evidence found in the trunk and the scene of the crime.

Neffy

12-23-2008, 04:38 AM

Thats weird, because I read that it was a bystander.. a neighbor who claims to have seen the remains, and saw duct tape, as being the source of that info. Hopefully come trial, rumor will have been separated from fact.

I didn't read it I heard Beary saw his lips moving and everything. :)

MerriMent

12-23-2008, 04:38 AM

What KioMarie said to who? The National Enquirer, before or after they handed her a check? I don't need to debate it with anyone, I am content to wait patiently for a trial, and see a decision rendered on something more than rumor and myth. You can't fault me for that.

No but I can fault you for misrepresenting the facts.

Try reading her statement to LE instead of the National Enquirer.....

Neffy

12-23-2008, 04:44 AM

wrong. The ME also has the scientific evidence found in the trunk and the scene of the crime.

That goes back to the Homicide ruling and I'll speculate again that's another piece why this was ruled a homicide. This has nothing to do with the cause of death to say for sure with certainty.

MerriMent

12-23-2008, 04:46 AM

MerriMent

12-23-2008, 04:51 AM

CNN, MSNBC, Fox news reported it that same day. If you google it you'll get quite a few hits. Maybe some of the previously posted news stories have been taken down by media sites, I don't know. But they've been doing that with some other stories regarding the case. Probably trying to preserve evidence for the trial. Here's one that's still up.

http://a11news.com/1205/caylee-anthony-body-found/

Caylee Anthony Body Found - The body of missing Florida toddler Caylee Anthony has been found with duct tape wrapped around her head only a few houses away from Casey Anthony’s parent house. © 2008 A11News.com

Some said on her mouth, some said around her head. We'll find out at trial. I wouldn't bet it's only rumor though.

or perhaps on her teeth. What a terrible thing for anyone to find.

enigma

12-23-2008, 04:52 AM

... based on opinion, as opposed to a reasonable degree of medical certainty,supported by scientific evidence.

So on what do you think the ME based her expert opinion? Tea leaves?

Neffy

12-23-2008, 04:55 AM

The ME made it clear that it was an OPINION and not a fact. If you align yourself with her opinion, then yes, I guess you would consider it a certainty. If you don't share in that opinion, or leave room for other possible opinions, then its not so certain afterall.

I choose to "align" myself with credible people.

A Medical Examiner is a medical doctor, usually a Forensic Pathologist. The Medical Examiner certifies the cause and manner of death, based on his/her expert opinion following an investigation and medical examination.

You use that word opinion like she gave it her best shot.

She is an expert in her field and an unbiased third party.

enigma

12-23-2008, 04:56 AM

What KioMarie said to who? The National Enquirer, before or after they handed her a check? I don't need to debate it with anyone, I am content to wait patiently for a trial, and see a decision rendered on something more than rumor and myth. You can't fault me for that.

Are you confusing the National Enquirer with LE?

This is Kiomarie's statement to LE in her interview conducted on Aug 12. Refer page 4, lines 22-25 inclusive.
http://itsamysterytome.wordpress.com/2008/12/16/kiomarie-cruz-le-interview-transcript/

JMHO

MerriMent

12-23-2008, 04:56 AM

No.. I will wait till trial and evaluate her sworn testimony as well as cross examination of that testimony. Again.. a no fault line of thinking.
I sense that the real argument among some of us, is that some feel there is no need for a trial, because she is so obviously guilty of the absolute most henious crime, while others feel she is entitled to a fair trial, and an opportunity for both sides to present evidence, prior to rendering her guilty.

I really haven't seen any poster here say there is no need for a trial or that she isn't entitled to receive a fair trial. I've seen enough evidence to form an opinion. What evidence is the defense going to present?

MerriMent

12-23-2008, 05:00 AM

So on what do you think the ME based her expert opinion? Tea leaves?

evidently so.

enigma

12-23-2008, 05:01 AM

No.. I will wait till trial and evaluate her sworn testimony as well as cross examination of that testimony. Again.. a no fault line of thinking.
I sense that the real argument among some of us, is that some feel there is no need for a trial, because she is so obviously guilty of the absolute most henious crime, while others feel she is entitled to a fair trial, and an opportunity for both sides to present evidence, prior to rendering her guilty.

NEWSFLASH: Kiomarie's statement to LE WAS sworn testimony. Refer page 18, lines 12-15 inclusive.
http://itsamysterytome.wordpress.com/2008/12/16/kiomarie-cruz-le-interview-transcript/

JMHO

Neffy

12-23-2008, 05:01 AM

No.. I will wait till trial and evaluate her sworn testimony as well as cross examination of that testimony. Again.. a no fault line of thinking.
I sense that the real argument among some of us, is that some feel there is no need for a trial, because she is so obviously guilty of the absolute most henious crime, while others feel she is entitled to a fair trial, and an opportunity for both sides to present evidence, prior to rendering her guilty.

Deleting post As I responded to your response to something else. Must be late!

MerriMent

12-23-2008, 05:03 AM

I believe that when the discussion becomes so distorted and irrational, its time to end it, at least for me. Have a great evening.

only thing I've seen distorted and irrational is the endless spinning of Caylee's murder as an accident.

enigma

12-23-2008, 05:06 AM

I believe that when the discussion becomes so distorted and irrational, its time to end it, at least for me. Have a great evening.

I don't see anything distorted or irrational about it... I just see very interesting debate and a really good exchange of information and ideas. Must be just me. Hope you have a lovely evening as well.

JMHO

Neffy

12-23-2008, 05:10 AM

I never claimed it was....my goodness

snipped......
I think possibly, and this is a long shot that if she had duct tape wrapped completely around her head that they may be able to show by circumference (or perimeter measurement) of the skull and possible equal measurement of the duct tape (if still stuck together to measure) that the probability of such is within reason.

That's what my first thought was and still is at least until we find out different at trial.

I don't think it could have been actually wrapped around especially finding out what the remains were. I think someone deduced something by what they saw.

Neffy

12-23-2008, 05:14 AM

CNN, MSNBC, Fox news reported it that same day. If you google it you'll get quite a few hits. Maybe some of the previously posted news stories have been taken down by media sites, I don't know. But they've been doing that with some other stories regarding the case. Probably trying to preserve evidence for the trial. Here's one that's still up.

http://a11news.com/1205/caylee-anthony-body-found/

Caylee Anthony Body Found - The body of missing Florida toddler Caylee Anthony has been found with duct tape wrapped around her head only a few houses away from Casey Anthony’s parent house. © 2008 A11News.com

Some said on her mouth, some said around her head. We'll find out at trial. I wouldn't bet it's only rumor though.

TX for the links. Beary is the heavy set office, mustache? (maybe I'm wrong who I saw said it (in name only) ) but it was definately LE

MerriMent

12-23-2008, 05:15 AM

enigma

12-23-2008, 05:15 AM

It's very unlikely that duct tape stuck to her teeth, especially if it is true that she was underwater for any length of time....

but very few things can actually stick to the enamel of teeth.

Dental Plaque being one of those few things.

According to some reports from LE, there was duct tape found around the mouth area, and/or around the head. According to the ME's finding, there was no soft tissue remaining. If the tape was wrapped around the mouth and there was no soft tissue, it would be wrapped around the teeth. Maybe that preserved whatever was on the teeth, if anything.

JMHO...

Neffy

12-23-2008, 05:16 AM

I don't see anything distorted or irrational about it... I just see very interesting debate and a really good exchange of information and ideas. Must be just me. Hope you have a lovely evening as well.

JMHO

ITA but it's late I gotta run.

Tx for the exchange.

MerriMent

12-23-2008, 05:18 AM

According to some reports from LE, there was duct tape found around the mouth area, and/or around the head. According to the ME's finding, there was no soft tissue remaining. If the tape was wrapped around the mouth and there was no soft tissue, it would be wrapped around the teeth. Maybe that preserved whatever was on the teeth, if anything.

JMHO...

yes, that's more along with what I was thinking. That poor little baby.

enigma

12-23-2008, 05:18 AM

ITA but it's late I gotta run.

Tx for the exchange.

Yeah, me too. Thanks for an interesting discussion everyone!

MerriMent

12-23-2008, 05:19 AM

Yeah, me too. Thanks for an interesting discussion everyone!

g'nite all!

cassidy

12-23-2008, 05:45 AM

only thing I've seen distorted and irrational is the endless spinning of Caylee's murder as an accident.

That really offends me to no end also. Accidental? In particular the theory of an "accidental" overdose committed in the course of Casey trying to get Caylee to sleep while she partied. IF that is what happened it was no accident. It was an on purpose. How can you accidentally overdose a 2 year old by dispensing something they shouldn't be taking in the first place? Nope, doesn't hold water for me.

JMO

ellegna

12-23-2008, 05:46 AM

Good morning

Started new thread for Tuesday morning.

http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?p=12573556&posted=1#post12573556

taylor63

12-23-2008, 07:57 AM

I'll be quick to judge this action. I think it's "tasteless" after donating the toys from the Memorial. Yes, funerals are expensive.....people who can't afford them have to pay for them every day. They don't put their hands out for the public to pay for them. And I remember Cindy referring to the public as "maggots" at one time. She also told them to get off their a$$es and go look for Caylee. They have brought these judgements upon themselves.

I also know the funeral homes will work with a person when they need help. I know this from my own father. We're still paying on his funeral. So, the Anthony's could give Caylee a funeral and make payments on it like others have to do. They tear up Memorials but then turn around and ask for donations. Seems the only kind of donations they want are $$$$$$ donations!

I am glad the funeral home worked with your family,but they didn't work with my family. They wanted ten thousand dollars upfront, and if they didn't get it we wouldn't have been able to have a funeral for my aunt and bury her next to her mother and father where she requested to be buried.

I don't know what the Anthony's finances are,and I personally think that's none of my business. I do know there are alot of people in our society especially today, that do not have life insurance, and their families can not come up with thousands of dollars, or more all at once to have a funeral and bury them. Especially if they have no extended family.

I understand your anger towards them I have been angry at a lot of their actions as well. However,I feel it's not my place to judge them, or anyone else only God can. I do feel terrible for them right now though. They have lost their grandchild, and now will in all likelyhood lose their daughter as well to either life in prison or the death penalty.

I think if Jesse Grund,a young man who loved Caylee like his own child, who the Anthonys wrongfully implied may have had a hand in Caylee's disapperance/death can forgive and have compassion for them then I as a stranger should and could do no less.