Dec. 22nd thru 12/29

[Crispy]

Starting a new thread for the new week!! Hopefully with the status hearing and competency testing on Monday we will get news this week.

[IAMME]

I dont remember now who said this, but i think it was gentle, that the tox reports would take weeks... Why would you think that? I have sent and received tox reports in a hospital setting and had results back in less than 30 minutes.........

[Justice_Dawg]

I dont remember now who said this, but i think it was gentle, that the tox reports would take weeks... Why would you think that? I have sent and received tox reports in a hospital setting and had results back in less than 30 minutes.........

What tox reports?

[Justice_Dawg]

It is day 45.

The boys right to a speedy trial has been delayed.

Do the right thing at the status hearing today Judge...Let the boy go home with his mother.

:thumbsup:

[Pag Boi]

I dont remember now who said this, but i think it was gentle, that the tox reports would take weeks... Why would you think that? I have sent and received tox reports in a hospital setting and had results back in less than 30 minutes.........

Tox reports on the victims or the 8yo?

IIRC, the ME said that drug and alcohol tests on the victims were negative. It did take several weeks after the autopsy was completed to get the results back. Several weeks for a tox report on a victim seems fairly normal.

Your experience with tox reports could be different to to the reason for testing, the extent of the testing, the importance of it. Could be your hospital lab is simply more efficient and/or adept than a state crime lab. JMOO

[patschican]

(carrying over from the Dec 15th thread)

Pag Boy and FurtherBB:

Your reluctance to lend credence to Tanya's statements about what her husband told her on the phone begs the question: when do you believe eyewitness testimony? Your statements seem to imply that you never really believe any eyewitness testimony, because really, it all boils down to he said/she said. Are there factors in this case that cause you to disbelieve her?

[wolfi_2]

It is day 45.

The boys right to a speedy trial has been delayed.

Do the right thing at the status hearing today Judge...Let the boy go home with his mother.

:thumbsup:


I can’t say it better :thumbsup:

[fairlaw]

Pat, I neither believe, nor disbelieve, anyone who says anything about this case. In my Memory, this is the most bizarre case I have ever, ever heard of.

I think it was impossible for this 8 year old child to keep reloading the weapon to kill two grown men.

What ever happens from here, this human life is destroyed, the boy, no matter if guilty or innocent, this kid has no chance in life at all. I wish I could take him into my home and let him know how a child DESERVS to be treated.

[Pag Boi]

(carrying over from the Dec 15th thread)

Pag Boy and FurtherBB:

Your reluctance to lend credence to Tanya's statements about what her husband told her on the phone begs the question: when do you believe eyewitness testimony? Your statements seem to imply that you never really believe any eyewitness testimony, because really, it all boils down to he said/she said. Are there factors in this case that cause you to disbelieve her?

Eyewitness testimony is faulty. This has been discussed on other threads here. You can search the topic. I agree with others that posted regarding Tanya. If eyewitness testimony is unreliable, how confident can one be about 3rd party voice testimony? I don't believe Tim was one the phone, didn't hear the gunshots fired at Vince but his estranged wife could clearly hear the child calling him from inside the house. She said she had been in the house once, IIRC, and knew the child's voice. I don't believe she could clearly hear what was said. Much less ID the voice of someone she met once. But I could be wrong. I need evidence to back up her statements.

Tim had a girlfriend. He moved out of the family house. There is a stray bullet in the truck. Is there any evidence they talked every day when Tim got off work? Where were the cell phone pings at the time of call? Do they have pings from other calls? Why was Tanya initially uncooperative? What does Tanya gain from Tim's death?

All above JMOO and just a few of the Q's I need answered. Not that they will come via LE. I feel like this 8yo is going to be forced to prove his innocence. Any adult would be assumed innocent until proven guilty in the eyes of the law.

The rapid release of the video snippet backed up by the "we have strong FE" statements from LE just reeks. JMOO someone in that community is being protected at the expense of this child. Until they show me evidence that he committed the crime, I will assume him innocent.

[Justice_Dawg]

Pat, I neither believe, nor disbelieve, anyone who says anything about this case. In my Memory, this is the most bizarre case I have ever, ever heard of.

I think it was impossible for this 8 year old child to keep reloading the weapon to kill two grown men.

What ever happens from here, this human life is destroyed, the boy, no matter if guilty or innocent, this kid has no chance in life at all. I wish I could take him into my home and let him know how a child DESERVS to be treated.

You are so sweet! He does have a chance, his mother loves him dearly. I am sure she will make sure he gets the best of care/help for whatever trauma/s he has been through.

[Justice_Dawg]

(carrying over from the Dec 15th thread)

Pag Boy and FurtherBB:

Your reluctance to lend credence to Tanya's statements about what her husband told her on the phone begs the question: when do you believe eyewitness testimony? Your statements seem to imply that you never really believe any eyewitness testimony, because really, it all boils down to he said/she said. Are there factors in this case that cause you to disbelieve her?
Yes, there are.
She doesn't mean squat. Tanya's "husband" had just asked his girlfriend "Candy" to marry him the night before. (That argument to discredit a witness is a defense attorneys dream)

What this case will boil down to is forensics/ballistics
If the boy fired the gun, GSR will be all over his cloths.
If he shot each bullet, his prints will be on each and every casing.
Ballistics will have to match his chipmunk gun.
The trajectory of the bullets will have to match shots from his height.
Then prosecutors have a timeline to contend with..and it's one of the tightest timelines I have ever seen.

[Justice_Dawg]

Eyewitness testimony is faulty. This has been discussed on other threads here. You can search the topic. I agree with others that posted regarding Tanya. If eyewitness testimony is unreliable, how confident can one be about 3rd party voice testimony? I don't believe Tim was one the phone, didn't hear the gunshots fired at Vince but his estranged wife could clearly hear the child calling him from inside the house. She said she had been in the house once, IIRC, and knew the child's voice. I don't believe she could clearly hear what was said. Much less ID the voice of someone she met once. But I could be wrong. I need evidence to back up her statements.

Tim had a girlfriend. He moved out of the family house. There is a stray bullet in the truck. Is there any evidence they talked every day when Tim got off work? Where were the cell phone pings at the time of call? Do they have pings from other calls? Why was Tanya initially uncooperative? What does Tanya gain from Tim's death?

All above JMOO and just a few of the Q's I need answered. Not that they will come via LE. I feel like this 8yo is going to be forced to prove his innocence. Any adult would be assumed innocent until proven guilty in the eyes of the law.

The rapid release of the video snippet backed up by the "we have strong FE" statements from LE just reeks. JMOO someone in that community is being protected at the expense of this child. Until they show me evidence that he committed the crime, I will assume him innocent.
Bravo!!!! :thumbup:

[Justice_Dawg]

Evaluation for charged 8-year-old murder suspect
Associated Press - December 22, 2008 7:34 AM ET

http://www.kgun9.com/Global/story.asp?S=9563640

[Justice_Dawg]

I find it odd that AP didn't write anything about the autopsy results. :mellow:

[ALL RISE]

on Fox Phoenix News this a.m. they stated that the boy said, 'that if he was spanked one more time'...

He was spanked last by his mother because he didn't bring home his homework.

Very sorry there is no link.

[FurthurBB]

(carrying over from the Dec 15th thread)

Pag Boy and FurtherBB:

Your reluctance to lend credence to Tanya's statements about what her husband told her on the phone begs the question: when do you believe eyewitness testimony? Your statements seem to imply that you never really believe any eyewitness testimony, because really, it all boils down to he said/she said. Are there factors in this case that cause you to disbelieve her?

It depends on who is making the statement and how easily they could be mistaken. Tanya did not see anything. She had met this boy one time and over a cell phone identified his voice. That is questionable in itself. Also, she has gotten a lawyer and is not cooperating with police. She has motive to kill her husband, or hire someone to kill him. She seems to believe that she can sue someone and get a large sum of money if the boy is found guilty of killing him. All these factors make it very hard to take her statement as gospel truth. IMO

[Justice_Dawg]

on Fox Phoenix News this a.m. they stated that the boy said, 'that if he was spanked one more time'...

He was spanked last by his mother because he didn't bring home his homework.

Very sorry there is no link.
One more time and What??? he'd run away from home? Spit on them? Hide the belt?
DOES HE EVER SAY "I'LL KILL THEM??" and if he did, why didn't he kill TIFFANY? The one who we know spanked him?

I thought when that first came out he said his "1000 spanking would be his last."

I hate the media.:thumbdown:

[bkwits]

One more time and What??? he'd run away from home? Spit on them? Hide the belt?
DOES HE EVER SAY "I'LL KILL THEM??" and if he did, why didn't he kill TIFFANY? The one who we know spanked him?

I thought when that first came out he said his "1000 spanking would be his last."

I hate the media.:thumbdown:

Mornin' all,

It seems like they are really reaching for a motive We never get the exact quote from the child, do we? It almost seems like the boy is trying to come up with something to please the adults.

No one, in the media or DA, ever speculates as to the child's motive for killing Tim. In fact, the child says, "Why would I shoot Tim?" It is truly disgraceful what they have done to this child. IMO

[Justice_Dawg]

Mornin' all,

It seems like they are really reaching for a motive We never get the exact quote from the child, do we? It almost seems like the boy is trying to come up with something to please the adults.

No one, in the media or DA, ever speculates as to the child's motive for killing Tim. In fact, the child says, "Why would I shoot Tim?" It is truly disgraceful what they have done to this child. IMO
Morning! or should I say "Good Day"? LOL, I sure hope it will be a good day!

ITA It sure is a disgrace!

Why would he shoot Tim at all let alone 6 times??

Whoever did this has BIG kahoonas to shoot a man in broad daylight 6 times.

[muska]

I've been wondering about the very early reports that VR was shot in the chest. I think that must have originated with the boy's comment to his grandmother on the night of the shootings that his father had been shot in the chest. It seems that either the grandmother or the boy's aunt(Francesca?) told the police about the comment. The next day (Fri.,11/7) Carlyon treated the boy's comment as fact when he questioned Rodriquez during the Advisory Hearing. He basically asked if anyone other than the shooter could have known VR had been shot in the chest. Rodriquez replied that no one else could have known because VR was lying face down and had not been moved. The chest wound was some of the "evidence" that was used to hold the boy. Problem is - VR was never shot in the chest! I think that Carlyon and the police dept took a traumatized child's comment as fact, just as in the "confession" and used it against him. They could not have had any other evidence that VR was shot in the chest because he wasn't.

Transcript dated 11/2 but really 11/7, p.105-106

I wonder how the boy's family feels about this. It seems that they were allowed to think the boy knew about a wound that only the shooter could have known about.

[Justice_Dawg]

I've been wondering about the very early reports that VR was shot in the chest. I think that must have originated with the boy's comment to his grandmother on the night of the shootings that his father had been shot in the chest. It seems that either the grandmother or the boy's aunt(Francesca?) told the police about the comment. The next day (Fri.,11/7) Carlyon treated the boy's comment as fact when he questioned Rodriquez during the Advisory Hearing. He basically asked if anyone other than the shooter could have known VR had been shot in the chest. Rodriquez replied that no one else could have known because VR was lying face down and had not been moved. The chest wound was some of the "evidence" that was used to hold the boy. Problem is - VR was never shot in the chest! I think that Carlyon and the police dept took a traumatized child's comment as fact, just as in the "confession" and used it against him. They could not have had any other evidence that VR was shot in the chest because he wasn't.

Transcript dated 11/2 but really 11/7, p.105-106

I wonder how the boy's family feels about this. It seems that they were allowed to think the boy knew about a wound that only the shooter could have known about.

Oh GREAT CATCH! Kudos to you for the day! :thumbsup:

[patschican]

Eyewitness testimony is faulty. This has been discussed on other threads here. You can search the topic. I agree with others that posted regarding Tanya. If eyewitness testimony is unreliable, how confident can one be about 3rd party voice testimony? I don't believe Tim was one the phone, didn't hear the gunshots fired at Vince but his estranged wife could clearly hear the child calling him from inside the house. She said she had been in the house once, IIRC, and knew the child's voice. I don't believe she could clearly hear what was said. Much less ID the voice of someone she met once. But I could be wrong. I need evidence to back up her statements.

Tim had a girlfriend. He moved out of the family house. There is a stray bullet in the truck. Is there any evidence they talked every day when Tim got off work? Where were the cell phone pings at the time of call? Do they have pings from other calls? Why was Tanya initially uncooperative? What does Tanya gain from Tim's death?

All above JMOO and just a few of the Q's I need answered. Not that they will come via LE. I feel like this 8yo is going to be forced to prove his innocence. Any adult would be assumed innocent until proven guilty in the eyes of the law.

The rapid release of the video snippet backed up by the "we have strong FE" statements from LE just reeks. JMOO someone in that community is being protected at the expense of this child. Until they show me evidence that he committed the crime, I will assume him innocent.

Eyewitness testimony absolutely can be unreliable, therefore, it must be viewed in conjunction with other evidence. In this case, there is no evidence that anyone else was in the house -- within minutes of receiving the 911 call the police were there and cordoned off the area. In addition, they did a search of the area and surrounding areas; nothing suspicious was found. The boy initially said that he simply found the bodies, then changed his story that he may have gunshot residue on him from the smoke in the house, then, when it was explained to him how gunshot residue works, changed his story again and said that he may have shot his father to end his suffering. Rapid story alteration is the first red flag that something is amiss.

Yes, of course we all have to wait for the evidence to come back -- gunshot residue from his clothing, the angle at which both men were shot, fingerprints on bullet casings, phone records (determining if Romans was indeed on the phone with his wife)...etc. And yes of course, legally, this boy is considered innocent until proven guilty. But that does not prohibit one from coming up with a theory and a main suspect, and by its nature, naming someone as the primary suspect means that you have a suspicion of guilt. So please, you and others, stop batting around the "innocent until proven guilty" mantra...this is a discussion board and we have a right to state our suspicions based on the information available to us.

As I have stated before, no one wants to believe this child did this, but right now, in my opinion, based upon the information available to me, he is the prime suspect.

[LindaNJ1216]

Eyewitness testimony absolutely can be unreliable, therefore, it must be viewed in conjunction with other evidence. In this case, there is no evidence that anyone else was in the house -- within minutes of receiving the 911 call the police were there and cordoned off the area. In addition, they did a search of the area and surrounding areas; nothing suspicious was found. The boy initially said that he simply found the bodies, then changed his story that he may have gunshot residue on him from the smoke in the house, then, when it was explained to him how gunshot residue works, changed his story again and said that he may have shot his father to end his suffering. Rapid story alteration is the first red flag that something is amiss.

Yes, of course we all have to wait for the evidence to come back -- gunshot residue from his clothing, the angle at which both men were shot, fingerprints on bullet casings, phone records (determining if Romans was indeed on the phone with his wife)...etc. And yes of course, legally, this boy is considered innocent until proven guilty. But that does not prohibit one from coming up with a theory and a main suspect, and by its nature, naming someone as the primary suspect means that you have a suspicion of guilt. So please, you and others, stop batting around the "innocent until proven guilty" mantra...this is a discussion board and we have a right to state our suspicions based on the information available to us.

As I have stated before, no one wants to believe this child did this, but right now, in my opinion, based upon the information available to me, he is the prime suspect.

I couldn't agree more.

[muska]

Oh GREAT CATCH! Kudos to you for the day! :thumbsup:

Thanks, this is just one of the many things that's been bothering me about this case. I taught elementary school for 12 years, mostly third and fourth graders, and it's really difficult for me to understand how anyone could treat a child this way.

[Justice_Dawg]

In my opinion, that family of his is completely worthless. Grandma threw him under the bus, Grandpa and stepmom turned on him and none of them have even visited him in jail. They do not care about this boy.

The only family member who seems to care is his mother, who the rest of them have spent years alienating.

IMO

I couldn't have said it better myself! :thumbsup:

[Justice_Dawg]

Filing up
From Eryn's attorney.

[Crispy]

I'm sure this was filed because they have probably asked for him to released for Christmas and the mother wants to be involved with the decision. How in the world is Santa going to get in juvenile detention with all those people still awake?

[Justice_Dawg]

I'm sure this was filed because they have probably asked for him to released for Christmas and the mother wants to be involved with the decision. How in the world is Santa going to get in juvenile detention with all those people still awake?

It says "Release OR furlough" :wink:

[PensiveOne]

Video from today...
http://www.azfamily.com/news/homepagetopstory/stories/st-johns-local-news-120608-interview-transcripts.394067bb.html

I hope they update it after the hearing.

[bkwits]

Eyewitness testimony absolutely can be unreliable, therefore, it must be viewed in conjunction with other evidence. In this case, there is no evidence that anyone else was in the house -- within minutes of receiving the 911 call the police were there and cordoned off the area. In addition, they did a search of the area and surrounding areas; nothing suspicious was found. The boy initially said that he simply found the bodies, then changed his story that he may have gunshot residue on him from the smoke in the house, then, when it was explained to him how gunshot residue works, changed his story again and said that he may have shot his father to end his suffering. Rapid story alteration is the first red flag that something is amiss.

Yes, of course we all have to wait for the evidence to come back -- gunshot residue from his clothing, the angle at which both men were shot, fingerprints on bullet casings, phone records (determining if Romans was indeed on the phone with his wife)...etc. And yes of course, legally, this boy is considered innocent until proven guilty. But that does not prohibit one from coming up with a theory and a main suspect, and by its nature, naming someone as the primary suspect means that you have a suspicion of guilt. So please, you and others, stop batting around the "innocent until proven guilty" mantra...this is a discussion board and we have a right to state our suspicions based on the information available to us.

As I have stated before, no one wants to believe this child did this, but right now, in my opinion, based upon the information available to me, he is the prime suspect.

I have no problem with the child being a suspect. BUT he has been thrown in jail, in solitary, interrogated illegally. Led into a so-called confesssion while the PO's lied to him. No one to look out for his rights or his well-being.

What kind of a society are we to treat a child this way?

[patschican]

Video from today...
http://www.azfamily.com/news/homepagetopstory/stories/st-johns-local-news-120608-interview-transcripts.394067bb.html

I hope they update it after the hearing.

Is anyone else annoyed that they transcribed the interrogation according to the people's accents, instead of transcribing it in English? Ta? Yer? Fer? Come on...

It's pretty clear though that the interviewers started suspecting him sooner than they admit, and instead of doing the right thing and informing him that he was becoming a suspect, reading him his rights...etc., they chose to proceed hoping they could get away with the "viewing him as a victim" defense.

[Crispy]

The transcripts do bug the crap out of me. Makes it hard to read. It surprises me that they don't have a live court reporter there during these hearings.

[patschican]

I have no problem with the child being a suspect. BUT he has been thrown in jail, in solitary, interrogated illegally. Led into a so-called confesssion while the PO's lied to him. No one to look out for his rights or his well-being.

What kind of a society are we to treat a child this way?

Well, that's a difficult situation to deal with. In the latest article posted by Pensive One, the judge admits that they are treading new waters and no one really knows how to handle this. On the one hand, if he's guilty, can you safely release him? Detention does seem necessary due to the violent nature of the crimes. On the other hand, he is a child, and a young one at that, so the thought of putting him in solitary confinement seems unfathomable. What is the answer?

Family members could be visiting to offer support, but they are angry with him, so their feelings are understandable. Interestingly, for those who think he is covering up for someone, like Tiffany or Tanya, why wouldn't that person be visiting him, if for no other reason than to ensure that he keep up the ruse? Assuming Tiffany/Tanya/whomever had a hand in it and convinced him to take the blame because he couldn't be tried as an adult, wouldn't you think they would be constantly at his side, reassuring him that things were going well? That amount of time in detention/solitary confinement, particularly with the notion of him being tried as an adult floating around, would cause anyone to recant if they were innocent, I would think. And were I the adult who really committed the crime and was counting on this boy to take the heat, I would do everything I could to comfort and reassure him on a regular basis. So the absence of adult presence in his life right now does not support the notion of him taking the rap for someone else...imo.

I concur that his rights were violated by him not being mirandized, and the confession should be inadmissible should this go to trial.

[Justice_Dawg]

The transcripts do bug the crap out of me. Makes it hard to read. It surprises me that they don't have a live court reporter there during these hearings.

So the court reporter could correct their english as she goes. What a job with these people! LOL

[patschican]

So the court reporter could correct their english as she goes. What a job with these people! LOL

It's not correcting English, it's clear that this is an accent. We all have accents, unless you're from the midwest, and even then, it's an accent, just one that society has deemed to be the proper way to speak.

It's clear that they mean "to", "for", and "your".

[Justice_Dawg]

It's not correcting English, it's clear that this is an accent. We all have accents, unless you're from the midwest, and even then, it's an accent, just one that society has deemed to be the proper way to speak.

It's clear that they mean "to", "for", and "your".

I was born and raised in Jersey. That thing would have a field day with me! :lol:

[patschican]

I was born and raised in Jersey. That thing would have a field day with me! :lol:

Right? I'm in Boston but I'm a transplant, so I don't have the accent. But I was thinking how ridiculous trying to transcribe conversation by native Bostonians would be...

This link has video footage of some of the boy's interview, and I just watched it with chills:

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/8-year-old-Arizona-murder-suspect-talks-about/b9kyfPI_sEKTOT72oUiQkA.cspx

Now I'm getting confused about this case. The autopsy report states that Romero was shot four times and Romans was shot six times:

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/Autopsy-St-Johns-murder-victims-shot-in-the-head/gsb18gJlwkizzVprKFwW0A.cspx

So why would the boy say he shot each man only twice? I'm starting to agree with the skeptics here...something is very wrong about this...

[Justice_Dawg]

It is so ordered granting money for shooting incident specialist.

Files up.

[Justice_Dawg]

Right? I'm in Boston but I'm a transplant, so I don't have the accent. But I was thinking how ridiculous trying to transcribe conversation by native Bostonians would be...

This link has video footage of some of the boy's interview, and I just watched it with chills:

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/8-year-old-Arizona-murder-suspect-talks-about/b9kyfPI_sEKTOT72oUiQkA.cspx

Now I'm getting confused about this case. The autopsy report states that Romero was shot four times and Romans was shot six times:

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/Autopsy-St-Johns-murder-victims-shot-in-the-head/gsb18gJlwkizzVprKFwW0A.cspx

So why would the boy say he shot each man only twice? I'm starting to agree with the skeptics here...something is very wrong about this...

Very wrong. :sad:

[bkwits]

Well, that's a difficult situation to deal with. In the latest article posted by Pensive One, the judge admits that they are treading new waters and no one really knows how to handle this. On the one hand, if he's guilty, can you safely release him? Detention does seem necessary due to the violent nature of the crimes. On the other hand, he is a child, and a young one at that, so the thought of putting him in solitary confinement seems unfathomable. What is the answer?

Family members could be visiting to offer support, but they are angry with him, so their feelings are understandable. Interestingly, for those who think he is covering up for someone, like Tiffany or Tanya, why wouldn't that person be visiting him, if for no other reason than to ensure that he keep up the ruse? Assuming Tiffany/Tanya/whomever had a hand in it and convinced him to take the blame because he couldn't be tried as an adult, wouldn't you think they would be constantly at his side, reassuring him that things were going well? That amount of time in detention/solitary confinement, particularly with the notion of him being tried as an adult floating around, would cause anyone to recant if they were innocent, I would think. And were I the adult who really committed the crime and was counting on this boy to take the heat, I would do everything I could to comfort and reassure him on a regular basis. So the absence of adult presence in his life right now does not support the notion of him taking the rap for someone else...imo.

I concur that his rights were violated by him not being mirandized, and the confession should be inadmissible should this go to trial.

With all due respect, in our justice system we don't lock everyone we suspect of violent crimes. The only cause, apart from the illegal, coerced confession, was Tanya's statement about the phone conversation. That is it.

He should not have been locked up, at least until the evidence came back. That is backbone of our justice system.

There is plenty of precedent on how to treat youg children. You do not interrogate them without an adult to look out for them.

Chief of Police Melnick got them into this muddle with his statement he is charging the child with murder and will seek to try him as an adult. This craziness has completely gotten out of hand, as the judge implied. IMO

[Justice_Dawg]

Looks to me Brewer is seeking to prove the child did not do the crime.

IMO

Yes. He got more money for his Criminal defense investigator too. I hope this guy tracks down who did this. I wish I could go help. I hate being in between cases..I get Sooooo bored.

[patschican]

With all due respect, in our justice system we don't lock everyone we suspect of violent crimes. The only cause, apart from the illegal, coerced confession, was Tanya's statement about the phone conversation. That is it.

He should not have been locked up, at least until the evidence came back. That is backbone of our justice system.

There is plenty of precedent on how to treat youg children. You do not interrogate them without an adult to look out for them.

Chief of Police Melnick got them into this muddle with his statement he is charging the child with murder and will seek to try him as an adult. This craziness has completely gotten out of hand, as the judge implied. IMO

No, we don't lock up everyone we suspect, but until you are convicted by a judge or jury, or until you plea out, you are legally considered innocent, yet we certainly detain people who have been charged with and/or are trial for a violent crime.

Oh wait, are you saying he hasn't been officially charged with anything yet? I thought he was charged with two counts of premeditated murder, thus justifying detainment.

[Justice_Dawg]

And IIRC he only said he shot them twice each after Avila said someone claimed they saw him shoot them. She led him into that confession.

He said "I think I shot them twice?"

:cursing:

[patschican]

And IIRC he only said he shot them twice each after Avila said someone claimed they saw him shoot them. She led him into that confession.

Yeah, I'm torn about using outright lies during interrogation to try to break a suspect down when dealing with an adult of sound mind. But for a child? That's just wrong; they're so susceptible.

[bkwits]

No, we don't lock up everyone we suspect, but until you are convicted by a judge or jury, or until you plea out, you are legally considered innocent, yet we certainly detain people who have been charged with and/or are trial for a violent crime.

Oh wait, are you saying he hasn't been officially charged with anything yet? I thought he was charged with two counts of premeditated murder, thus justifying detainment.


This case is a mess. He has been charged because of his confession. He was also found delinquent. The option is still open to try him as an adult.

I'm saying the so-called confession deprived him of his rights, and there is no other evidence to hold him. Confessions are thrown out before trial many, many times.

I think this poor kid is caught between the adult justice system and the juvenile system. IMO

I have referred to the Ryan Harris murder case in Chicago, several times, because the accused boys were 7 and 8 years old. They extracted false confessions from each one separately with out an adult representative present.

It was so ridiculous, that even just reading it in the paper, I knew the boys didn't do it. It was crazy the 11 yo Ryan had been sexually abused. LE said the boys knew details of the crime that no one else knew (LE fed them the details). Well, they found semen and DNA proved it was Floyd Durr, who by that time was in prison as a serial rapist. He had raped a 5 yo girl, while the cops were diddling around with these two little boys.

BTW, even as Draconian as that was, the boys were not imprisoned, but put under house arrest with ankle bracelets.

[Justice_Dawg]

Afternoon, all! Just breezing in to see what's happening on this case. I am happy to see that the boy's attorney is doing everything possible to exonerate this kid. My gut instinct is that the Judge won't release this boy because he may be safer where he is, even if it is not the best of conditions. I think the Judge might be afraid that if he lets the boy out, some nutcase will want to take the law into his own hands and kill the boy. OR the actual murderer will put a price on his head and want to off him to keep him from identifying the real killer(s).

I see NO plea deal going on here. Defense is crossing every T and doting every i to make sure this child is cleared.

If it was some nuts in a white car (Which I think it was)...that car is long gone. This is the only thing that makes sense. What he says right here in this clip.
http://www.azfamily.com/video/?z=y&nvid=304789

[Details]

(carrying over from the Dec 15th thread)

Pag Boy and FurtherBB:

Your reluctance to lend credence to Tanya's statements about what her husband told her on the phone begs the question: when do you believe eyewitness testimony? Your statements seem to imply that you never really believe any eyewitness testimony, because really, it all boils down to he said/she said. Are there factors in this case that cause you to disbelieve her?I believe eyewitness testimony when it fits the rest of the facts. And there are reasons to disbelieve her.

Her info does not fit well with the facts - we have 11 minutes, per her conversation, between Tim hanging up and the 911 call. In that 11 minutes (no matter what version of the murders you take), Tim has to be killed, shot 6 times, the little boy (no matter what version you take, has to react to this, run across the street, tell his story, the older boy has to call his father, the father has to come home, check it out, and call 911. And we have an 8 year old boy supposedly (by her version) killing, or complicit in the killing of Tim - but that doesn't fit the facts well either. This little boy, if merely complicit, somehow spills all the beans - except the truth. If he killed them, we've got the huge inconsistency that he doesn't know how many times they were shot, a totally unchildlike neatness (that is not reflected anywhere else about him), but worst of all, Tim's blood trail showing him running towards the house, rather than away - something that just does not fit with the child calling him in, shooting him at the truck - he'd run away from the gunfire, not towards it.


And there's reason to disbelieve her - several reasons. Eyewitnesses alone are unreliable - and when they don't match the facts, they're quite likely wrong. But in addition, she'd be the top natural suspect, without the little boy - a cheated on wife, a cheating husband about to pop the question to another woman? And Tim with the most shots in him looks like the primary target. When your top suspect points the finger elsewhere - that's not something any investigation should rely on. And, of course, she could be mistaken in other ways - maybe she does believe it's the boy, and makes up a story to point police that way. Maybe she knows, or is even threatened by the real killers. Maybe it was the boy's bio-mother, imitating her son's voice to lure Tim in.

[Details]

Oh, and great catch! That idea that the child knew things only the killer could have known has been a popular talking point - good to know it's simply not true.

[patschican]

Wow, excellent points, all of you. I have so much work to do today and now I am sucked into this case...

Something else that seems odd -- the autopsy findings of Vincent's wounds and where Vincent was found combined with the boy's description of how it happened. According to the autopsy findings:

"A bullet grazed his left arm, and penetrated the top of his head, the left side of his head, and the right side of his upper back."

And he was found, "...face down on a flight of stairs leading to the second floor of his home."

Quoted from:

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/Autopsy-St-Johns-murder-victims-shot-in-the-head/gsb18gJlwkizzVprKFwW0A.cspx

But the boy said he went upstairs, saw his dad, got the gun and fired, implying that he was shooting at him from the top of the stairs. So how did these wounds happen? I'm assuming that either of the head wounds would cause Vincent to collapse, making the other wounds quite difficult. Or, if the first shot grazed the arm, why wouldn't he have shouted out...which Tim would have heard, and certainly Tanya would have heard, since she claims to have heard the boy calling to Tim. The fact that Tanya does not report hearing screams or yelling, nor does she report Tim saying he heard screams or yelling implies that the first shot made Vincent lose consciousness, which brings us back to the problem of the other shots.

And then of course, the back wound would mean that the boy had to climb over Vincent to get down the stairs to shoot him in the back as he lay sprawled on the stairs.

I want to see the angles of these wounds. Also, could someone post a link to information about Tim's trail of blood heading toward the house? I'm sure it was posted in the past, but I can't find it...

[muska]

I'm sure this was filed because they have probably asked for him to released for Christmas and the mother wants to be involved with the decision. How in the world is Santa going to get in juvenile detention with all those people still awake?

Do you think there's any chance they would release him to anyone other than Eryn? I think he definitely needs to be with her! I hope they wouldn't try any kind of foster placement. I saw an old post yesterday from someone who said he knew Eryn from Mississippi. He said the judge in the custody case was related to the Romeros. It's such a small town, they could have a lot of influence.

[wolfi_2]

Do you think there's any chance they would release him to anyone other than Eryn? I think he definitely needs to be with her! I hope they wouldn't try any kind of foster placement. I saw an old post yesterday from someone who said he knew Eryn from Mississippi. He said the judge in the custody case was related to the Romeros. It's such a small town, they could have a lot of influence.

That would be totally wrong to send him to any other person, as to his mom.

[Kara]

Looks to me Brewer is seeking to prove the child did not do the crime.

IMO
Well, the majority of us here seem to have doubts about his guilt...and we're a pretty pro-prosecution bunch so that speaks loudly to me. If so many of us are wondering, there is something going on....

jmo

[Kara]

He said "I think I shot them twice?"

:cursing:
Most of his incriminating confessional statements were phrased like, "I might have" or "Maybe" with a few "I thinks" thrown in. That's a long ways from a confession if you ask me.

[PensiveOne]

Boy's attorney plans to challenge the evidence.
:thumbsup:
http://ktar.com/?sid=1013339&nid=416

[Kara]

Does anybody remember this case?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/02/01/48hours/main1270189_page9.shtml

A babysitter, charged with murder, based upon her "confession". You can see the confession on the page linked.

CTV started to show the trial, but the confession was thrown out and the prosecution had to admit that was their entire case, so they dropped the charges.

Oops...I linked you to the last page of the story...here is the first page.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/02/01/48hours/main1270189.shtml

[muska]

Most of his incriminating confessional statements were phrased like, "I might have" or "Maybe" with a few "I thinks" thrown in. That's a long ways from a confession if you ask me.


Even Neckels, who claimed to be trained to pick up signs of lying, said she saw "no typical I'm not telling the truth signs." Why bother with training if you're going to ignore that training when that's the convenient thing to do?

[Kara]

Boy's attorney plans to challenge the evidence.
:thumbsup:
http://ktar.com/?sid=1013339&nid=416
I'm glad the atty is being a strong advocate for this child. I don't think court appointed attys always work this hard for their clients.

[PensiveOne]

The boy wants his personal stuff and his dog!

http://www.kpho.com/news/18337101/detail.html

[muska]

The boy wants his personal stuff and his dog!

http://www.kpho.com/news/18337101/detail.html

Which search and what evidence do you think Brewer is talking about?

[GentleBreeze]

It sounds like Brewer is not searching for the truth but wants to suppress it instead.

Why would he want to suppress the search warrant of the home and the evidence collected if he thought this boy was totally innocent?

imoo

[PensiveOne]

Which search and what evidence do you think Brewer is talking about?

I wonder if it is referring to the "1,000 spanking" search warrant? I don't know. The next hearing won't be until January 6.:mad:

I wonder if they are going to release him for a while. Maybe that is why they want his bed and his dog!

[GentleBreeze]

I wonder if it is referring to the "1,000 spanking" search warrant? I don't know. The next hearing won't be until January 6.:mad:

I wonder if they are going to release him for a while. Maybe that is why they want his bed and his dog!

I think the confession will most likely be tossed.

But I do not think the search warrants will be. They were signed by this Judge.

imoo

[ChildsVOICE]

Hi All!

I'm newly registered to InSession Message Board/8 year old child. You have so much information on here. It's great! Keep up the good work!

Please, visit http://www.myspace.com/childsHOPEandVOICE.

This is a myspace page I've created to help spread the word about this little boy's plight. I have included various inspirational and encouraging items for the family.

I'd like to post some ideas & questions from this message board if that's ok?! I've been collecting theories, questions, opinions from all over the web plus from my personal friends and family.

Remember, when you visit the site ADD FRIEND INVITE! and then refer the site to all your contacts.

Thanks so much!:thumbsup:

[GentleBreeze]

The story says that friends and family of the victims crowded one side of the courtroom, obviously the prosecution side. So who are these family members? Romans obviously. But who is there for Vincent? Mom and Dad? Brothers and sisters. Friends?

Anyone there for the boy???

Heartless IMO.:cursing:

I would think it was both families and friends. There are over a 100 family members of Vincent's that live in St. Johns.

imoo

[lurkinghere2]

It sounds like Brewer is not searching for the truth but wants to suppress it instead.

Why would he want to suppress the search warrant of the home and the evidence collected if he thought this boy was totally innocent?

imoo

I think it sounds like Brewer is calling for suppressing anything that was obtained in an illegal manner. The "confession" certainly was & it is stated somewhere that the search warrant was obtained under questionable cicumstances.

If he did not believe in his client's innocence, he would not be taking the time to have someone recreate the scene. imo

[GentleBreeze]

Oh Gentle...you're back! But there you go again...a lawyer doing his job for his client is a sure sign of guilt. I believe it's call the American System of Justice, which has lots of rules to protect the accused as well as the state. Deal with it.
:tonguewag:


Yes, it reminds me of Geragos.:tonguewag:

[Justice_Dawg]

The boy wants his personal stuff and his dog!

http://www.kpho.com/news/18337101/detail.html

Brewer:
"It could be fairly significant if they are not able to use that evidence they took from the house," he said after a status conference Monday. "The case could go away pretty quickly."
------------------



LOL, I think the boy is divorcing his stepmother.

MOO

[GentleBreeze]

I think it sounds like Brewer is calling for suppressing anything that was obtained in an illegal manner. The "confession" certainly was & it is stated somewhere that the search warrant was obtained under questionable circumstances.

If he did not believe in his client's innocence, he would not be taking the time to have someone recreate the scene. imo

He has no money in the hired expert, so what does he have to lose? If he doesn't call him as a witness in the trial he doesn't have to turn over what the expert told him to the State.

I think he knows he is going to have to have a paid expert to try and refute the prosecution's experts. Sort of like bringing in defense experts on other cases, like Vincent DiMaio the gun expert does for the defense. Example: Spector case.

imoo

[Justice_Dawg]

I think the confession will most likely be tossed.

But I do not think the search warrants will be. They were signed by this Judge.

imoo
They were NOT all signed by this judge. Stop spreading false rumors!

[GentleBreeze]

And SP got his day in court, didn't he? And he was proven to be a lying, cheating, manipulative murderer.

It takes a big leap to compare that trial to this one in any way shape or form.

IMO

Why? This is typical. A defense attorney files motions to suppress on things they know will hurt their client.

Same old same old.

imoo

[Kara]

Hi All!

I'm newly registered to InSession Message Board/8 year old child. You have so much information on here. It's great! Keep up the good work!

Please, visit http://www.myspace.com/childsHOPEandVOICE.

<snipped>Hello from a fellow Virginian.

I have the hardest time reading your myspace page.... The white letters on the light blue background are just more than I can deal with, so I gave up on trying to read there.

[GentleBreeze]

They were NOT all signed by this judge. Stop spreading false rumors!

Which Judge signed the search warrants?

Got a link?

[Justice_Dawg]

Which Judge signed the search warrants?

Got a link?Judge: HONORABLE GUNNELS, BUTCH L

http://www.supreme.state.az.us/publicaccess/notification/default.asp

[Kara]

Which Judge signed the search warrants?

Got a link?
Off topic...but I'm curious. I've seen many comments about your signature line...some people seem to think that you are active military, stationed at the location mentioned in your siggie. I'm pretty sure I remember that you live in Georgia (or is it SC?) and you're a little too old to be active military...

What is your affiliation with the marine base? Or do you just like/respect their motto?

[Hawk]

Hi All!

I'm newly registered to InSession Message Board/8 year old child. You have so much information on here. It's great! Keep up the good work!

Please, visit http://www.myspace.com/childsHOPEandVOICE.

This is a myspace page I've created to help spread the word about this little boy's plight. I have included various inspirational and encouraging items for the family.

I'd like to post some ideas & questions from this message board if that's ok?! I've been collecting theories, questions, opinions from all over the web plus from my personal friends and family.

Remember, when you visit the site ADD FRIEND INVITE! and then refer the site to all your contacts.

Thanks so much!:thumbsup:

I'm with mzmarymac. If we could leave a message on your site to let the boy's mother that there are many of us across the country who support the child it might make us all feel just a little better.

[Justice_Dawg]

Hi All!

I'm newly registered to InSession Message Board/8 year old child. You have so much information on here. It's great! Keep up the good work!

Please, visit http://www.myspace.com/childsHOPEandVOICE.

This is a myspace page I've created to help spread the word about this little boy's plight. I have included various inspirational and encouraging items for the family.

I'd like to post some ideas & questions from this message board if that's ok?! I've been collecting theories, questions, opinions from all over the web plus from my personal friends and family.

Remember, when you visit the site ADD FRIEND INVITE! and then refer the site to all your contacts.

Thanks so much!:thumbsup:
I found you because you are on Eryn's friends list.

I put you on our links thread a few days ago. :thumbup:

[GentleBreeze]

The judge even stated in Open Court that the judicial system is not designed to handle this case. So there! Very different from SP.

:mad:

Well on that I sure agree. The defendant is very young and there are two murder victims. Very unusual for the juvenile court to try to handle when it was established to rehabilitate non violent and petty youthful offenders.

imo

[Kara]

If you highlight all of the text it is MUCH easier to read! It's worth it because there is some excellent information on there!

IMO
I tried that and it didn't help much... Maybe because I use Opera as my browser???

[Justice_Dawg]

I can't view Eryn's web page. It says set to private. I wish I could so that I could express my support for her.

IMO

Eryn posted on ChildsVoice, go all the way down to the comments to see it. You can post a comment to her.

[wolfi_2]

Well on that I sure agree. The defendant is very young and there are two murder victims. Very unusual for the juvenile court to try to handle when it was established to rehabilitate non violent and petty youthful offenders.

imo

Where do you think should it be handled, in adult court?

[Justice_Dawg]

Yup...I finally figured out how to do that, but wasn't sure if she read those comments. Does she have a public site of her own other than the one that is set to private?

Not that I know of, she hasn't sent me to any.

[GentleBreeze]

Where do you think should it be handled, in adult court?

Wherever the Judge decides or if it is sent to the AZ Supreme Court to seek their advice on the best way to try the boy.

imoo

[Justice_Dawg]

Where do you think should it be handled, in adult court?

Of course she does.
I'd say something but you all already know what it is.:cursing:

[Justice_Dawg]

Actually, I misread what you said. I put something on the other site, but now I have figured out a way to send directly to her site. I'm very new at MySpace (about 3 hours new!)

Thanks!

You have to request to be her friend, then she has to OK you. That's how my space works. I bet she is reading the comments on ChildsVoice. I know I would.

[wolfi_2]

Wherever the Judge decides or if it is sent to the AZ Supreme Court to seek their advice on the best way to try the boy.

imoo

How can someone try an 8 year old boy without taken damage to the boy? Or should he not rehabilitate? I thing it’s always enough damage to the boys health done, so he needs help now. I think at last, there is no win for all sites, not for the taxpayers, not for the boy, only for the justice system that get their goal, if he was tried to some year’s in prison. The outcome would be not better if the boy grow up in his most important years in some kind of prison.

[Justice_Dawg]

New County Attorney starts next week. Has to look over the entire case.
Prosecutor Carlyon is out soon after.

http://www.kpho.com/video/18336753/index.html

hmmmmmmmmm

[GentleBreeze]

How can someone try an 8 year old boy without taken damage to the boy? Or should he not rehabilitate? I thing it’s always enough damage to the boys health done, so he needs help now. I think at last, there is no win for all sites, not for the taxpayers, not for the boy, only for the justice system that get their goal, if he was tried to some year’s in prison. The outcome would be not better if the boy grow up in his most important years in some kind of prison.

I don't know. It isn't really my call, whatever the Judge decides or whatever a higher court decides if it goes to them. If there is a trial, I have always believed it will be tried in juvenile court.

He will be rehabilitated in juvey and he will receive mental care there as well, if convicted.

I believe the DA said he is willing to plea the case and not try it later in the adult system.

I don't think it is about the justice system getting their goal. No matter who agrees with it or not, their job is to be a voice for the voiceless victims and to seek justice for their murders imo. They don't determine the age of the one that they believe did the crimes. It is what it is. Two dead men and a youthful offender accused of their murders.

It does make me wonder what will be the outcome of this case since it is legal to charge an 8 year old with a crime in AZ. Not necessarily just one as egregious as murder but any crime. So if the AZ legislators have affixed that age, then they must believe that a child of 8, understands right from wrong.

imoo

[Hawk]

How would state legislators across our great country know what age a child becomes responsible? Aren't they mostly lawyers? How many child psychologist are elected? Looks to me like they know less about handling our children than they do our money.

[Justice_Dawg]

how would state legislators across our great country know what age a child becomes responsible? Aren't they mostly lawyers? How many child psychologist are elected? Looks to me like they know less about handling our children than they do our money.

ita!!! Lol

[Kara]

New County Attorney starts next week. Has to look over the entire case.
Prosecutor Carlyon is out soon after.

http://www.kpho.com/video/18336753/index.html

hmmmmmmmmmHmmm.... I wonder what the new county atty will think of this case...

[PensiveOne]

I don't know. It isn't really my call, whatever the Judge decides or whatever a higher court decides if it goes to them. If there is a trial, I have always believed it will be tried in juvenile court.

He will be rehabilitated in juvey and he will receive mental care there as well, if convicted.

I believe the DA said he is willing to plea the case and not try it later in the adult system.

I don't think it is about the justice system getting their goal. No matter who agrees with it or not, their job is to be a voice for the voiceless victims and to seek justice for their murders imo. They don't determine the age of the one that they believe did the crimes. It is what it is. Two dead men and a youthful offender accused of their murders.

It does make me wonder what will be the outcome of this case since it is legal to charge an 8 year old with a crime in AZ. Not necessarily just one as egregious as murder but any crime. So if the AZ legislators have affixed that age, then they must believe that a child of 8, understands right from wrong.

imoo

I found this link the other day...there is a lot of information about the law in Arizona.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1284420/in_pursuit_of_justice_for_whom.html?cat=17

[Hawk]

Criss Candelaria got 2,293 votes 25%
Michael Whiting got 6,878 votes for 75%

Guess Apache County voters either dislike Mr. Candelaria or really like Mr. Whiting, the new County Attorney.

[Justice_Dawg]

Criss Candelaria got 2,293 votes 25%
Michael Whitting got 6,878 votes for 75%

Guess Apache County voters either dislike Mr. Candelaria or really like Mr. Whiting.

:lol::tonguewag::lol:

[muska]

Hi All!

I'm newly registered to InSession Message Board/8 year old child. You have so much information on here. It's great! Keep up the good work!

Please, visit http://www.myspace.com/childsHOPEandVOICE.

This is a myspace page I've created to help spread the word about this little boy's plight. I have included various inspirational and encouraging items for the family.

I'd like to post some ideas & questions from this message board if that's ok?! I've been collecting theories, questions, opinions from all over the web plus from my personal friends and family.

Remember, when you visit the site ADD FRIEND INVITE! and then refer the site to all your contacts.

Thanks so much!:thumbsup:

Great Job!! I still haven't had the time to get through everything there but I'm working on it!

[ChildsVOICE]

Hi All!

I'll be working on getting the white type changed to a darker shade on the myspace page. It came with the background I used and I've wondered if people would have trouble reading it, so "Thanks" for the suggestion. Its more important that people get to read the info.

Eryn is listed on the friends list along with a few other of her family members and supporters. She did post a comment on the site and has explained to me that it is tremendously helpful to know there are people "out there supporting (her son)". She has told me that viewing the boy's myspace page helps her whenever she gets overwhelmed. And, I have received some wonderful "Thank You" notes from the other family members. They are all very appreciative.

I do not know how often she looks over the page to see the "comments" section, however, I do notice she emails the page every few days. Because of the gag order we are very careful not to talk about the case, I just send her an encouraging email letting her know we are praying and thinking of her and her son and, also, to tell her when I have sent a care package. (The boy needs age appropriate 3rd & 4th grade level books to read that are non-violent and without weapons depicted, to read while he is in his cell. He has trouble sleeping once he goes to his cell and is only allowed books to take to his cell. I think there are a certain number he's allowed inside the cell. He likes books with pictures.:rolleyes: This info per the Detention Center Manager.)

I have already switched over to the myspace page and contacted Eryn to refer her to this "InSession" Message Board telling her she just has to check this out. I'm sooo glad all of you are taking your time out of your busy schedules to help this child. We just have to coordinate the info so the people who need it, receive it.

I have already let Eryn & family members know that you all send you regards and will be posting comments on the page so she can make sure to check them out.

Also, whenever someone has emailed their support I've sent her a notification. I'm hoping knowing all these supporters will help keep her going. I know it has to be tough.

I have four children ages 18 yrs, 16 yrs, an 8 yr old son, and a 6 yr old.

Thanks again for all you are doing!
Lady in Virginia

[Hawk]

Great job, childs voice!!

[PensiveOne]

Sounds like Mr. Carlyon may stay on the case.

http://www.wmicentral.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20226543&BRD=2264&PAG=461&dept_id=505965&rfi=6

[ChildsVOICE]

:lol::tonguewag::lol:

Justice Dawg...You really crack me up! LOL

Researching for the myspace page gets to be really emotional for me. Especially, since I have a little 8 year old boy, myself. Every day, I think of this poor child and can't help but to give my own little boy an extra hug and kiss all throughout the day.

It really helps to know you are out there supporting this child is great. Plus, some of the things you guys say on here, makes me chuckle! It's a needed relief! LOL

(Speaking of my little tart...at this moment, I'm trying to explain to him how to dial the phone to call a friend! Wow! the police must think the Romero child is a boy genius!)

[Kara]

Sounds like Mr. Carlyon may stay on the case.

http://www.wmicentral.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20226543&BRD=2264&PAG=461&dept_id=505965&rfi=6
Hmm...when did he become a "special" prosecutor? I thought he was the country prosecutor....

[Hawk]

Sounds like Mr. Carlyon may stay on the case.

http://www.wmicentral.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20226543&BRD=2264&PAG=461&dept_id=505965&rfi=6


Brad Carlyon won the Navajo County Attorneys race (uncontested). How does that work? Can he put his newly elected office on hold while this case proceeds? Maybe so....

[Crispy]

Hmm...when did he become a "special" prosecutor? I thought he was the country prosecutor....

I believe Criss Candelaria is the county prosecutor, soon to be replaced.

[Hawk]

Here's the new guy. There are plenty of interesting links about the county.

http://www.votewhiting.com/

[Crispy]

So the prosecution is going to file their special action. Wonder what's gonna happen with that.

[PensiveOne]

Okay, one more link tonight. It sounds like the therapist is only able to see the boy through glass. What a crock!

http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?contentId=8120477&version=4&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=3.2.1

[Crispy]

Thanks for all the links :seeya: If you get time you should put them on the links thread!

[PensiveOne]

Thanks for all the links :seeya: If you get time you should put them on the links thread!

You're welcome Crispy! I think I will put them up on the links tomorrow. I am worn out from Christmas shopping:smile:

[Details]

Hmm...when did he become a "special" prosecutor? I thought he was the country prosecutor....Sounds a bit like he's saving face, or refusing to assume anything, by saying that if requested he'd stay on. I don't expect his electoral opponent to keep him on when 75% of the voters wanted him out.

[Hawk]

Here's the new guy. There are plenty of interesting links about the county.

http://www.votewhiting.com/

Thank God St. Johns PD has gotten Al Capone! They have public enemy #1 secured. They must be careful. After all, the defendant is 4' tall and weights 50 lbs. I haven't seem him, but he must be mighty fierce! A professional hit man to hear them tell it.

[JD1974]

Why? This is typical. A defense attorney files motions to suppress on things they know will hurt their client.

Same old same old.

imoo



I bet you have never heard of a case where a prosecutor has hid evidence?

[Hawk]

Apache County Juvenile Detention Center
name of detainee
PO Box 100
St. Johns AZ 85936


http://www.co.apache.az.us/PDFs/Probation/Handbook.pdf

[Justice_Dawg]

Brad Carlyon won the Navajo County Attorneys race (uncontested). How does that work? Can he put his newly elected office on hold while this case proceeds? Maybe so....

Nobody ran against him. :mad:

[Justice_Dawg]

Sounds like Mr. Carlyon may stay on the case.

http://www.wmicentral.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20226543&BRD=2264&PAG=461&dept_id=505965&rfi=6

Special prosecutor Brad Carlyon also told the court he is willing to remain on the case, but the final decision will be made by Apache County Attorney-elect Michael Whiting when he takes office Jan. 1.

Let's all fax the heck out of Michael Whiting letting him know we want Carlyon off the case. Carlyon has an agenda. :cursing:

[Justice_Dawg]

Justice Dawg...You really crack me up! LOL

Researching for the myspace page gets to be really emotional for me. Especially, since I have a little 8 year old boy, myself. Every day, I think of this poor child and can't help but to give my own little boy an extra hug and kiss all throughout the day.

It really helps to know you are out there supporting this child is great. Plus, some of the things you guys say on here, makes me chuckle! It's a needed relief! LOL

(Speaking of my little tart...at this moment, I'm trying to explain to him how to dial the phone to call a friend! Wow! the police must think the Romero child is a boy genius!)
I sent you the link to here. Now you know who I am on MySpace. :biggrin:
You are an angel, Kudos to you for all of your hard work.:thumbsup:

[Justice_Dawg]

I believe Criss Candelaria is the county prosecutor, soon to be replaced.

He's WAS County Attorney. He is gone Jan. 1.:beer:

[Justice_Dawg]

Here's the new guy. There are plenty of interesting links about the county.

http://www.votewhiting.com/

He's cute.

:eek:


:chicken:


:tonguewag:

[Justice_Dawg]

Oh my God, the damage they are doing to this child. This is the reason why I can't stay on this board more than 5 minutes every week. It's sickening and I feel so helpless there is nothing I can do to help this boy. How long does he have to be tortured like this. This is so unfair. There is no evidence linking this boy to this crime. Keeping him isolated away from human contact. It's criminal.

Hopefully Whiting has a heart.

[Hawk]

Does Whiting's concerns about drugs in Apache County (see his website) raise any questions? It must be a pretty bad problem.

[muska]

Special prosecutor Brad Carlyon also told the court he is willing to remain on the case, but the final decision will be made by Apache County Attorney-elect Michael Whiting when he takes office Jan. 1.

Let's all fax the heck out of Michael Whiting letting him know we want Carlyon off the case. Carlyon has an agenda. :cursing:

Great idea! Carlyon worked for Candelaria wherever they were before this. Candelaria brought Carlyon with him to Apache County. Carlyon got that "confession" video out to the public asap. I really think they wanted to poison public opinion really fast while they had the chance.

[Hawk]

Amen. What's the number?

[Justice_Dawg]

:lol:THIS IS A FILE PHOTO OF CRISS CANDELARIA
http://www.votewhiting.com/blog/

On July 21st, 2008 the Navajo Nation Council deleted Apache County Attorney, Criss Candelaria, from the summer session agenda, reported the Gallup Independent. The Gallup Independent stated Candelaria was supposed to address the entire Navajo Nation Council, however, just as he was getting ready to speak a motion was made to remove him from the agenda. The motion was seconded.:tonguewag:

As a result the motion to remove Candelaria went to a full vote of the Navajo Nation Council. The council voted 54 to 14 to remove him from the agenda. After being removed by an almost 4 to 1 ratio, Candelaria left the meeting and did not return. Some of the reasons stated by delegates for removing Candelaria from the agenda were that in his six years in office he had never asked to speak to the council before and that the only reason he wanted to speak was because Michael Whiting is running against him.

Whiting has received generous support from the Navajo Nation, as he used to work for the Navajo Nation and live on the Navajo Reservation. With these concerns, along with several others, the council felt him speaking was nothing more than a political attempt to gather what little support he might have left.
To read the related article go to
http://www.gallupindependent.com/2008/07july/072308.html

[Justice_Dawg]

Amen. What's the number?

We can find out. :wink:

[Justice_Dawg]

Does Whiting's concerns about drugs in Apache County (see his website) raise any questions? It must be a pretty bad problem.

Apache County ranks 2nd in “Meth” use, a serious drug addiction creating a profound affect on public health and resources.

http://www.votewhiting.com/The_Drug_Problem_in_Apache_County.html

WoW!

[Crispy]

Defense claims the judge who signed the search warrant was friends with one of the victims.

http://www.azfamily.com/news/homepagetopstory/stories/st-johns-local-news-120608-interview-transcripts.394067bb.html

Redacted version of the complaint

http://www.azfamily.com/images/links/122208-supress.pdf

[Justice_Dawg]

Great idea! Carlyon worked for Candelaria wherever they were before this. Candelaria brought Carlyon with him to Apache County. Carlyon got that "confession" video out to the public asap. I really think they wanted to poison public opinion really fast while they had the chance.

They need to leave along with the "New Chief".
Then maybe we will see true justice in this case.

I saw the filing where Candelaria put Carlyon on as special prosecutor.

Found it!

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/

APPOINTMENT OF PROSECUTING ATTORNEY.PDF
barf

[Justice_Dawg]

Defense claims the judge who signed the search warrant was friends with one of the victims.

http://www.azfamily.com/news/homepagetopstory/stories/st-johns-local-news-120608-interview-transcripts.394067bb.html

Redacted version of the complaint

http://www.azfamily.com/images/links/122208-supress.pdf

I told our wonderful Gentlebreeze today that 'ole Butchy signed the warrant. She insisted Roca signed them all. She even made me give her a link. LOL. May she EAT CROW!

[muska]

So what do you think - will they have to throw out all of that evidence?

In the Lohstroh case, the judge refused to allow some testimony on the child's behalf so the verdict was thrown out, but it took two years. I hope this judge doesn't go along with anything that's questionable.

[Justice_Dawg]

You ROCK, Dawg! :wink:

Nah, I just like to keep the facts,,, and some :cursing: posters straight. :biggrin:

[Justice_Dawg]

So what do you think - will they have to throw out all of that evidence?

In the Lohstroh case, the judge refused to allow some testimony on the child's behalf so the verdict was thrown out, but it took two years. I hope this judge doesn't go along with anything that's questionable.

That is the law.

Lisa Bloom would have a field day with this info.

[Justice_Dawg]

The filing of the motion to supress evidence due to an illegal search warrant does not mean that anything collected connects the boy to the crime.
As we all know, none of the results of any of those items is even back yet.

Mr. Wood is doing his job and protecting his client. We have a 4th and 14th amendment for good reason.

14th amendment- http://www.14thamendment.us/amendment/14th_amendment.html

4th amendment- http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment04/

MOO

[BobbisAngel]

Wherever the Judge decides or if it is sent to the AZ Supreme Court to seek their advice on the best way to try the boy.

imoo


The system will have to figure out what to do with kids this age as it is doubtful this boy will be the last one to end up in detention at that age. The way this world is going nothing would surprise me. Victims deserve justice along with their familys. I guess the judicial system needs to put their heads together and come up with a plan for this boy.
Whoever the guilty party is needs to suffer the consequences of their actions. We know right from wrong at an early age.

No one knows if this boy is guilty or not and we won't know until the evidence comes back. People are jumping to conclusions but the evidence isn't back so we just have to wait and see what they find out.

Wasn't there supposed to be something take place in court today to do with the boy's being compatent or not?

[wolfi_2]

I don't know. It isn't really my call, whatever the Judge decides or whatever a higher court decides if it goes to them. If there is a trial, I have always believed it will be tried in juvenile court.

He will be rehabilitated in juvey and he will receive mental care there as well, if convicted.

I believe the DA said he is willing to plea the case and not try it later in the adult system.

I don't think it is about the justice system getting their goal. No matter who agrees with it or not, their job is to be a voice for the voiceless victims and to seek justice for their murders imo. They don't determine the age of the one that they believe did the crimes. It is what it is. Two dead men and a youthful offender accused of their murders.

It does make me wonder what will be the outcome of this case since it is legal to charge an 8 year old with a crime in AZ. Not necessarily just one as egregious as murder but any crime. So if the AZ legislators have affixed that age, then they must believe that a child of 8, understands right from wrong.

imoo


So I’m even happier to live in a civilised country where something like this case never would be happened. It’s nearly impossible that a kid get onto a weapon without adult, and if, it’s absolutely impossible to try an 8 year old kid in court. And for me he is a kid not a juvenil.

[wolfi_2]

I still believe, that there is a reason if he did the shooting’s, so I would ask, how guilty are the victim’s? I can only speak for my self, I was spanked often, it was normal to the time I grow up, (now it’s forbidden by law). If I had free access to a weapon to that time…..??? - I still know, I was sometimes full of hate after spanking.

[wolfi_2]

Hi All!

I'll be working on getting the white type changed to a darker shade on the myspace page. It came with the background I used and I've wondered if people would have trouble reading it, so "Thanks" for the suggestion. Its more important that people get to read the info.


Lady in Virginia

Thanks for the change, now it’s better to read:thumbsup:

[wolfi_2]

Right now she can only see him through the glass…:sad:
http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail?contentId=8120477&version=4&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=1.1.1
Sorry but I had no word for that:angry:

[PensiveOne]

Defense claims the judge who signed the search warrant was friends with one of the victims.

http://www.azfamily.com/news/homepagetopstory/stories/st-johns-local-news-120608-interview-transcripts.394067bb.html

Redacted version of the complaint

http://www.azfamily.com/images/links/122208-supress.pdf

WOW! I wonder why the motion to supress isn't on the Apache County Court site? The thing that concerns me here is that if the evidence is thrown out and somebody else did this how could they prove it? Surely the judge knew what he did was wrong.:confused:

[JD1974]

Defense claims the judge who signed the search warrant was friends with one of the victims.

http://www.azfamily.com/news/homepagetopstory/stories/st-johns-local-news-120608-interview-transcripts.394067bb.html

Redacted version of the complaint

http://www.azfamily.com/images/links/122208-supress.pdf


What is going on in that town? I wonder how many friends the victims had, you know friends that don't log a complaint to welfare, maybe LE members...I wonder if Eryn and the little boy had no one to turn to. Makes me wonder if that is how Vincent got custody also, friends in high places? I am not bashing the victim here, I would do the same if it was about custody of my kids also.

[bkwits]

Nah, I just like to keep the facts,,, and some :cursing: posters straight. :biggrin:


Well, lots of luck with that. :thumbup:

[Hawk]

After Mr. Haag completes his Shooting Incident Evaluation we will have a better idea of what actually happened at the Romero home. This should have been done weeks ago by the St. Johns PD, using Mr. Haag's fine and experienced team.
I think the results will be a surprise to many.

[Justice_Dawg]

What is going on in that town? I wonder how many friends the victims had, you know friends that don't log a complaint to welfare, maybe LE members...I wonder if Eryn and the little boy had no one to turn to. Makes me wonder if that is how Vincent got custody also, friends in high places? I am not bashing the victim here, I would do the same if it was about custody of my kids also.

Custody judge knew VR. I think they were related. I'll have to go check.

[Justice_Dawg]

After Mr. Haag completes his Shooting Incident Evaluation we will have a better idea of what actually happened at the Romero home. This should have been done weeks ago by the St. Johns PD, using Mr. Haag's fine and experienced team.
I think the results will be a surprise to many.

Why willl the results surprise us? :confused:

[GentleBreeze]

After Mr. Haag completes his Shooting Incident Evaluation we will have a better idea of what actually happened at the Romero home. This should have been done weeks ago by the St. Johns PD, using Mr. Haag's fine and experienced team.
I think the results will be a surprise to many.


This has already been done and the State evaluators have been on the scene from very early on. In Brewers interview, DN mentions that the DPS are reconstructing the scene and will learn where the shots were fired from and where the shooter was standing at the time. Also the height of the shooter.

This is Brewer's defense expert to refute what he knows is going to come in by the DPS forensic firearm experts for the State although he is under no obligation to call him, if his opinion is the same and under no obligation to turnover his analysis to the State, unless he calls him as a witness that actually testifies in the trial.

For $3500 he sure couldn't get Vincent DiMiao or Dr. Spitz who are firearm experts but he does know he has to have one, hoping to offset the State's experts.

imoo

[Hawk]

This will be a scientific study of the scene including shot placement, time intervals, victim locations, acoustic levels impact results, and more. Human adrenaline flow effect will also be considered in both shooter(s) and victims. Not so much from a purely medical standpoint, but from known shooting data. This varies, of course, from human to human.
It's my belief that those who have already convicted the child will be surprised at how much information Mr. Haag will provide. His report/testimony may well raise more than a shadow of doubt on the guilt of the defendant. Mr. Haag has done it all over the country.

[Justice_Dawg]

Apache County, Arizona: The same person who interviewed
the 8 year old boy accused of murder is the same person who
interviewed Barr's accuser!That person is; Apache County Sheriff Commander Matrese Avila, who sat the "witness for the prosecution" in a corner and tried to put words in her mouth! To see article, go to:
Click Here

This is a true story, still unfolding, of
a man falsely accused,maliciously
prosecuted and wrongfully
imprisoned for politically corrupt
motives. You could be next!
How "law enforcement authorities" of Apache
County, Arizona, committed crimes of
stupendous proportions to put an innocent
man in prison for crimes that were created by
Apache County personnel!


http://www.joelbarrsstory.com/index.html

[Hawk]

Both DiMiao and Spitz are doctors. Not shooting experts. There is a huge difference. Neither of them are in the same business as Haag. In fact, they don't have companies.

[Hawk]

Apache County, Arizona: The same person who interviewed
the 8 year old boy accused of murder is the same person who
interviewed Barr's accuser!That person is; Apache County Sheriff Commander Matrese Avila, who sat the "witness for the prosecution" in a corner and tried to put words in her mouth! To see article, go to:
Click Here

This is a true story, still unfolding, of
a man falsely accused,maliciously
prosecuted and wrongfully
imprisoned for politically corrupt
motives. You could be next!
How "law enforcement authorities" of Apache
County, Arizona, committed crimes of
stupendous proportions to put an innocent
man in prison for crimes that were created by
Apache County personnel!


http://www.joelbarrsstory.com/index.html

Good job!
There's that brillant AZ State Legislature again! And the good Deputy, 'just doing her job'.

[GentleBreeze]

Both DiMiao and Spitz are doctors. Not shooting experts. There is a huge difference. Neither of them are in the same business as Haag. In fact, they don't have companies.

They have vast experience in many areas.

They testified as firearm experts in the Spector trial for the defense.

imoo

[bkwits]

I'm sorry I have to vent here a little. You guys are doing a great job of unearthing alot of secrets and scandal about these LE out in St. Johns that are up to no good or have track records that are highly suspect and unethic. However, the question begs to be asked. What good is this doing for the little boy who is sitting in isolation right now with hardly no human contact. I just don't understand where this is helping the boy's case any. Who are you reporting all of your findings to, if I may be so inquisitive. And what are they doing about it, if any.

Hi January, I should be finishing my Christmas shopping but there is a blizzard here.

You ask what good is this discussion for the little child. I think it has done some good. I visit many other sites where there are comments or discussions, and of course read every news article about this.

This is what I've noticed since the case began. Most media have gone from saying something like, "8 year old murders dad and friend" to 8 year old accused, etc. I've seen much more doubt about his actually doing the shooting. I believe that Eryn has probably gotten more help because of these discussions (not just this one). People are calling St. Johns a backward, gestapo like town.

In the beginning, it seemed the majority of commenters thought the child did it, or likely did it. I see that this has changed dramatically. There are only the few holdouts and the crazies (the crazies being the ones who say he should be executed or looked away for life).

LE and the DA in Apache Co. have changed their tune, from trying him as an adult to wanting to dismiss one count, to dismissing both counts. They have been caught with their pants down and their :blushing: showing. IMO

I think that is because of public outcry. IMO

[Justice_Dawg]

Justice Dawg...You really crack me up! LOL

Researching for the myspace page gets to be really emotional for me. Especially, since I have a little 8 year old boy, myself. Every day, I think of this poor child and can't help but to give my own little boy an extra hug and kiss all throughout the day.

It really helps to know you are out there supporting this child is great. Plus, some of the things you guys say on here, makes me chuckle! It's a needed relief! LOL

(Speaking of my little tart...at this moment, I'm trying to explain to him how to dial the phone to call a friend! Wow! the police must think the Romero child is a boy genius!)



Good post on Eryn's My Space!!! You are a genius!

[Justice_Dawg]

Hi January, I should be finishing my Christmas shopping but there is a blizzard here.

You ask what good is this discussion for the little child. I think it has done some good. I visit many other sites where there are comments or discussions, and of course read every news article about this.

This is what I've noticed since the case began. Most media have gone from saying something like, "8 year old murders dad and friend" to 8 year old accused, etc. I've seen much more doubt about his actually doing the shooting. I believe that Eryn has probably gotten more help because of these discussions (not just this one). People are calling St. Johns a backward, gestapo like town.

In the beginning, it seemed the majority of commenters thought the child did it, or likely did it. I see that this has changed dramatically. There are only the few holdouts and the crazies (the crazies being the ones who say he should be executed or looked away for life).

LE and the DA in Apache Co. have changed their tune, from trying him as an adult to wanting to dismiss one count, to dismissing both counts. They have been caught with their pants down and their :blushing: showing. IMO

I think that is because of public outcry. IMO

LOL, Now they are sayig "the boy confessed to shooting the victims twice" But autopsy reports show......

:lol:

[Justice_Dawg]

Report: St. Johns boy to spend Christmas with mother


http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/Report-St-Johns-boy-to-spend-Christmas-with-mother/6-tNRcYTgkWvECqyGBMMyg.cspx

WOOHOO!

:tonguewag: (to you know who)

[muska]

Report: St. Johns boy to spend Christmas with mother


http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/Report-St-Johns-boy-to-spend-Christmas-with-mother/6-tNRcYTgkWvECqyGBMMyg.cspx

WOOHOO!

:tonguewag: (to you know who)

I'm very glad to hear he's been released but what happened to the furlough would be kept private?

[bkwits]

Report: St. Johns boy to spend Christmas with mother


http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/Report-St-Johns-boy-to-spend-Christmas-with-mother/6-tNRcYTgkWvECqyGBMMyg.cspx

WOOHOO!

:tonguewag: (to you know who)




:thumbsup: The judge has a heart. :wub:

[Justice_Dawg]

I'm very glad to hear he's been released but what happened to the furlough would be kept private?

From the media? :scared: No way

That is like trying to keep my wolf from her deer leg.

[Justice_Dawg]

:thumbsup: The judge has a heart. :wub:

I think he knows what's up. :thumbup:

[muska]

I'm sorry I have to vent here a little. You guys are doing a great job of unearthing alot of secrets and scandal about these LE out in St. Johns that are up to no good or have track records that are highly suspect and unethic. However, the question begs to be asked. What good is this doing for the little boy who is sitting in isolation right now with hardly no human contact. I just don't understand where this is helping the boy's case any. Who are you reporting all of your findings to, if I may be so inquisitive. And what are they doing about it, if any.

Would it be possible to set up a link with names/addresses/media to contact? Would that even be helpful? I'm not sure.

[patschican]

I searched long and hard and did not find any articles on Tim Romans' trail of blood. The closest I came was a brief discussion on websleuths that included a link which is now defunct.

However, in the discussion on websleuths, it was hypothesized that Romans was running toward the boy in an attempt to overtake him, but was stopped with another gunshot that incapacitated him. This could explain the trail of blood heading toward the house.

I'm vacillating on this case, but fear my first impression may be the correct one -- that the boy did indeed do it. Of course we'll know a lot more when they release ballistics results, along with other key evidence. I'm assuming they dusted the rifle for fingerprints...have we heard anything about that yet?

[LindaNJ1216]

Oh my God, the damage they are doing to this child. This is the reason why I can't stay on this board more than 5 minutes every week. It's sickening and I feel so helpless there is nothing I can do to help this boy. How long does he have to be tortured like this. This is so unfair. There is no evidence linking this boy to this crime. Keeping him isolated away from human contact. It's criminal.

You assume there is no evidence linking the boy to this crime. I say you have no idea what they have.

[wolfi_2]

I read that motion to suppress 3 times and every time with a bigger smile on my face.:laugh:
And now he can spend Christmas with his mom that’s the best news since a long time in this case. :thumbsup:

[Justice_Dawg]

I searched long and hard and did not find any articles on Tim Romans' trail of blood. The closest I came was a brief discussion on websleuths that included a link which is now defunct.

However, in the discussion on websleuths, it was hypothesized that Romans was running toward the boy in an attempt to overtake him, but was stopped with another gunshot that incapacitated him. This could explain the trail of blood heading toward the house.

I'm vacillating on this case, but fear my first impression may be the correct one -- that the boy did indeed do it. Of course we'll know a lot more when they release ballistics results, along with other key evidence. I'm assuming they dusted the rifle for fingerprints...have we heard anything about that yet?
Blood trail:
http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/
Page 8 Line 7 of
TRANSCRIPT OF DETAINED ADVISORY HEARING NOV 2 2008_VOL2 PARTB.pdf

[Justice_Dawg]

You assume there is no evidence linking the boy to this crime. I say you have no idea what they have.

I say neither do you.

[patschican]

Blood trail:
http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/
Page 8 Line 7 of
TRANSCRIPT OF DETAINED ADVISORY HEARING NOV 2 2008_VOL2 PARTB.pdf

Wow, goldmine of information. Guess I'm gunna take the dog for a hike in the woods first, because I suspect I'll be reading those documents for a long time...

Thanks, JD.

[bkwits]

You assume there is no evidence linking the boy to this crime. I say you have no idea what they have.


Well, maybe LE doesn't know what the evidence is either. They say it won't be back until the end of January. If they have evidence why don't they proceed to trial as the defense wishes to???

[LindaNJ1216]

BKWits, thanks for replying and it's so good to see you! I understand what you are saying about forums like this changing public opinion, but unfortunately, this boy is not being convicted via court of public opinion. It's a judge that holds his life in his hands. So court of public opinion really doesn't count, does it. It's nice that so many people are seeing St. Johns for what it really is, but this still doesn't change the fact that we have a helpless 8 year old boy in isolation and he sits alone waiting for a hearing that doesn't seem to be coming forth, scared, helpless with an attorney who has very little leverage in this town and whose hands are tied at every given turn. His rights are being violated left and right, yet nobody seems to be able to do anything to get him out of jail.

To the other poster, you ask me about links to media. You are asking the wrong person. I have no idea how come the media isn't all over this case but I strongly suspect that nobody wants to touch it because it's too controversial and that it involves a little kid. For a while I remember two high profile pundits complaining about this travesty on national tv but now that seems to have disappeared. Nancy Grace won't even touch this. I am the wrong person to ask about who to contact and how to force the media to cover this story. Even if they were to do that, would that help get this kid out of jail? I don't think so.

To those that are saying that there is evidence linking this child to the crime and accusing me of not knowing what I am talking about, I think this entire forum speaks volumes on that. I asked about a month ago for anyone who can link this kid up to this crime to post some solid evidence to back that up. So far, I have not seen anything even remotely linking this kid up to this crime, so that moots your accusations that the kid is guilty.

I am very frustrated and like all of you, my heart breaks for this kid. The fact that an 8 year old boy is sitting in a jail in isolation, not being able to talk to his therapist except through a pane of glass, having to suffer from nightmares and not having his mommy's bed to climb into (think back when you were 7 or 8 and you know the fear this kid is experiencing) the damage being done to this kid that is irreversible breaks my heart and angers me in the same breath.

So again, I am asking. You guys have all but proven that nothing in the crime scene is linking this boy directly to this crime. But what is being done with this information that you have unearthed, (brilliantly so, I might add) that can help this kid get out of jail and get back to his mother and his life. I'm just asking.


Had an 8 year old child accidentally shot his dad once and killed him....I'd agree with you.

If he did this, and I think he did....he is exactly where he needs to be. You don't pat him on his head, send him toys and send him off with his mother.

[Hawk]

What does Mr. Brewer intend to do with the boy's personal property, including Nellie the puppy? Is he anticipating a quick resolution to this case and the child's permanent release?
Sounds good to me!

[Hawk]

All I know is that the judge seemed to OK the boy getting his dog and other personal items. I think that is a very good sign. I pray that his mother tucks him in tonight with Nellie snuggled up with him under the covers.:smile:

Yes, indeed.

[Hawk]

They have vast experience in many areas.

They testified as firearm experts in the Spector trial for the defense.

imoo

No they didn't, because they aren't.

[bkwits]

But, January, can we just turn away because it is painful to know about this poor child?

I don't think the Ryan Harris case was a national media case to any extent, 10 years ago. That case was a big wake-up call to me as to how they treat juveniles and I think some changes were made in Chicago's questioning of juveniles.

I mean, would it be better if we just ignored this?

Many said about the arrests of the 7 and 8 year old boys (accused of killing Ryan Harris) that it wouldn't have happened in Winnetka (an affluent suburb of Chicago). I believe that is true.

This poor child seemed to have no one when we started following this case. Now at least he is able to be with his mom on the holidays and his birthday. He also has hundreds, maybe thousands of people who are concerned about him. Eyes are watching Apache County Justice.
They weren't before. IMO

[Justice_Dawg]

Well, Linda...for once I agree with you on at least one thing...he is definitely where he needs to be! With his Mom! :biggrin:

YES! :thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Justice_Dawg]

No they didn't, because they aren't.

Spector was a mistrial. I can't believe she is even using that example. LOL

[wolfi_2]

YES! :thumbsup::thumbsup:

Again, I can’t say it better !

[IAMME]

St Johns sounds more and more like my own little corrupt town/county everyday. That being said, I am HIGHLY suspicious of a construction worker who is "friends" with a judge. I know that to many of you that will sound odd, but if you have ever lived in one of these little corrupt towns where the "good ole boy" system is alive and thriving you would know exactly what I mean.

The FBI has investigated the county sherriffs office where I live several times in the past few years, lawsuits have been filed, cases are pending, it is an ugly mess. I believe that is what needs to be done with this case, the feds need to come in and have a look around.

[tif]

So again, I am asking. You guys have all but proven that nothing in the crime scene is linking this boy directly to this crime. But what is being done with this information that you have unearthed, (brilliantly so, I might add) that can help this kid get out of jail and get back to his mother and his life. I'm just asking.

January,
I understand that you're upset and I agree that it appears that this child is being railroaded, but no one on this site has actually unearthed anything. All the information we are discussing is publicly available. The defense had it before we did, no doubt along with other information that hasn't been disclosed publicly. I don't think we have to worry about the defense not analyzing the evidence or that they are unaware of the corruption.

[patschican]

Hmmm....I looked through many of the documents in the link you provided, JD, and I have to say that there's more evidence there for the boy's guilt than innocence. For example, in State's Disclosure, among the evidence listed are fingerprint experts and crime lab experts. They're not going to include this if the fingerprints on the gun don't match the boy's and if the gun is not absolutely determined to be the murder weapon.

I'm curious, for those of you championing for this kid, if there is ample evidence of his guilt, where do you think he should be? Do you really think he should be free to be with his mother? I know it's hard to fathom someone so young doing such a heinous act, but it is possible, and assuming the state has sufficient evidence to charge him (which they appear to have), do you really think it's in the best interest of society for him to be free simply because he is a child?

[wolfi_2]

Hmmm....I looked through many of the documents in the link you provided, JD, and I have to say that there's more evidence there for the boy's guilt than innocence. For example, in State's Disclosure, among the evidence listed are fingerprint experts and crime lab experts. They're not going to include this if the fingerprints on the gun don't match the boy's and if the gun is not absolutely determined to be the murder weapon.

I'm curious, for those of you championing for this kid, if there is ample evidence of his guilt, where do you think he should be? Do you really think he should be free to be with his mother? I know it's hard to fathom someone so young doing such a heinous act, but it is possible, and assuming the state has sufficient evidence to charge him (which they appear to have), do you really think it's in the best interest of society for him to be free simply because he is a child?


Yes, the boy should not be in any jail (If he did it), he should be at home and get some therapy. Sorry, for the victim families, but for me, childcare comes for justice until a kid gets 13 or 14. And I have not the idea to try him later when he is older.


And I also don’t want 13 or 14 year olds tried as adults until they get 18

[Pag Boi]

Eyewitness testimony absolutely can be unreliable, therefore, it must be viewed in conjunction with other evidence. In this case, there is no evidence that anyone else was in the house -- within minutes of receiving the 911 call the police were there and cordoned off the area. In addition, they did a search of the area and surrounding areas; nothing suspicious was found. The boy initially said that he simply found the bodies, then changed his story that he may have gunshot residue on him from the smoke in the house, then, when it was explained to him how gunshot residue works, changed his story again and said that he may have shot his father to end his suffering. Rapid story alteration is the first red flag that something is amiss.

Yes, of course we all have to wait for the evidence to come back -- gunshot residue from his clothing, the angle at which both men were shot, fingerprints on bullet casings, phone records (determining if Romans was indeed on the phone with his wife)...etc. And yes of course, legally, this boy is considered innocent until proven guilty. But that does not prohibit one from coming up with a theory and a main suspect, and by its nature, naming someone as the primary suspect means that you have a suspicion of guilt. So please, you and others, stop batting around the "innocent until proven guilty" mantra...this is a discussion board and we have a right to state our suspicions based on the information available to us.

As I have stated before, no one wants to believe this child did this, but right now, in my opinion, based upon the information available to me, he is the prime suspect.

The child's original statement was that he WAS NOT in the house.

Tanya isn't an eyewitness. There is so much we don't know about the witness statements taken by LE. How many times each person was interviewed, whether their statements changed, if their statements are truthful, how LE confirmed their stoires to be truthful, etc.

This 8yo was told 19 hours after the crime they had witnesses to his actions. Only then did he change his story. That raises BIG RED FLAGS indeed. How many times did they interview the other adults in that 18 hours. How much research could LE have possibly done to eliminate what was amiss in a mere 19 hours?

They explained GSR to the child an he clearly understood it? All in less than one hour? There are adults that have been posting on this board for years that don't understand it.

You may believe that a bullet at the front door and a bullet lodged in a truck that are not a match with the bullets that killed the victims = nothing suspicious. I do. My idea of "rapid story alteration" is obviously much different than yours.

LE claimed strong FE. To date, there has been none presented. You have your right to an opinion as we all do. You asked FurtherBB and myself a question. We responded to you on this discussion board. That's how discussion and debate work IIRC. I am unsure why you felt the need to add your comments regarding that. All JMOO tho

[LindaNJ1216]

Yes, the boy should not be in any jail (If he did it), he should be at home and get some therapy. Sorry, for the victim families, but for me, childcare comes for justice until a kid gets 13 or 14. And I have not the idea to try him later when he is older.


And I also don’t want 13 or 14 year olds tried as adults until they get 18

Sorry, I disagree. If he did this....and I think he did....he needs to be in a secure residential treatment facility for MANY YEARS where he can get the INTENSIVE therapy he needs if he is EVER to be normal.

You seriously suggesting he should be at home, attend public school, and go to outpatient therapy for an hour or two a week? NO WAY!

I know of quite a few 11, 12, 13 & 14 year olds that have committed heinous violent acts. I know many REPEAT offenders that are only 13. I think it depends on the circumstances.

[Pag Boi]

But I do not think the search warrants will be. They were signed by this Judge.

imoo

You know that there are many reasons any warrant gets tossed that would have nothing to do with the judge. I don't know what the results of this motion will be.

You also know it is a lawyer's duty to vigorously defend his client. Whether he believes him guilty or not. LE must follow the letter of the law. If the SW gets tossed on a technicality, that's their fault. It's their job to do it properly. JMOO.

[patschican]

Pag Boi, I urge you to go here, download the documents, and take some time to read through them:

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/

Among the most telling, imo, are the state's disclosure and the transcripts of the advisory hearings, where you can follow the progression of the story alterations.

I ask you, if the rifle wasn't the gun used, or if the fingerprints on the rifle didn't match the boy's, or if his clothing showed no signs of gunshot residue, do you really think the state would be proceeding? Does anyone know about a massive brain tumor that the DA has that I am not privy to? Clearly, they're not going to proceed based only on the interrogation of the boy. The evidence must be supporting it, so I ask, why are you so convinced that this is a massive, county-wide conspiracy against an 8 year old boy?

[patschican]

Sorry, I disagree. If he did this....and I think he did....he needs to be in a secure residential treatment facility for MANY YEARS where he can get the INTENSIVE therapy he needs if he is EVER to be normal.

You seriously suggesting he should be at home, attend public school, and go to outpatient therapy for an hour or two a week? NO WAY!

I know of quite a few 11, 12, 13 & 14 year olds that have committed heinous violent acts. I know many REPEAT offenders that are only 13. I think it depends on the circumstances.

I'm with you, Linda. No, he should not be tried as an adult, but nor should he just be set free. If he did this, and if it can be shown that he did understand that death is final, then he needs to be in some facility undergoing massive therapy.

[muska]

Yes, the boy should not be in any jail (If he did it), he should be at home and get some therapy. Sorry, for the victim families, but for me, childcare comes for justice until a kid gets 13 or 14. And I have not the idea to try him later when he is older.


And I also don’t want 13 or 14 year olds tried as adults until they get 18

That's a long way off in the United States, I'm sorry to say. We still have not figured out that locking kids up in cruel conditions will just make them worse when they get out.

For the moment, it would be nice if we could just agree, at the very least, that third graders should not be charged in the criminal justice system.

[bkwits]

Hmmm....I looked through many of the documents in the link you provided, JD, and I have to say that there's more evidence there for the boy's guilt than innocence. For example, in State's Disclosure, among the evidence listed are fingerprint experts and crime lab experts. They're not going to include this if the fingerprints on the gun don't match the boy's and if the gun is not absolutely determined to be the murder weapon.

I'm curious, for those of you championing for this kid, if there is ample evidence of his guilt, where do you think he should be? Do you really think he should be free to be with his mother? I know it's hard to fathom someone so young doing such a heinous act, but it is possible, and assuming the state has sufficient evidence to charge him (which they appear to have), do you really think it's in the best interest of society for him to be free simply because he is a child?

What evidence are you referring to? There have been several discussions and complaints that the ballistics and fingerprint evidence won't be back from the labs until the end of January.

You are free to form any opinion of course. But the only evidence that I am aware of is Tanya Romans's statement. They have the dubious "confession" if you want to call that evidence.

[Pag Boi]

And SP got his day in court, didn't he? And he was proven to be a lying, cheating, manipulative murderer.

It takes a big leap to compare that trial to this one in any way shape or form.

IMO

ITA.

I was just wondering how this case could remind anyone of Geragos, unless....... :chicken:

Brewer and Geragos are nothing like. Neither are the circumstances of this crime, the victims, the accused. JMOO

[patschican]

What evidence are you referring to? There have been several discussions and complaints that the ballistics and fingerprint evidence won't be back from the labs until the end of January.

You are free to form any opinion of course. But the only evidence that I am aware of is Tanya Romans's statement. They have the dubious "confession" if you want to call that evidence.

The State's Disclosure lists fingerprint experts and crime lab experts, therefore, I assumed they were back from the labs.

[patschican]

Yeah, I have a huge one. The prosecutor is under investigation for abuse of power (and don't ask me to provide a link, I'm all out) and I believe people in the L.E. out there in St. Johns are using this boy and that power to advance their careers.

So, if we think the boy is guilty, we're horrible people who don't abide by the "innocent until proven guilty" principle, but it's okay to convict the prosecutor when he's simply under investigation?

I just find it hard to believe that anyone would be able to knowingly frame an 8 year old boy and sleep at night.

[Crispy]

Of course the boys fingerprints are going to be on the gun. It was after all his gun. They have already said they won't have evidence back until the end of January, so obviously they are only proceeding on the confession and the statement from Tanya Romans. They clearly stated that in the first hearing.

Personally I'm glad that I don't have to be the one to decide what should happen to this child if he is found competent and found guilty. There is no winner in this case no matter how you look at it. IMO

[Hawk]

The boys fingerprints will, of course be on the chipmunk rifle. It was 'his' gun. Prints from tiny .22 casings would not be so easy. Those prints would most likely smear on the brass from the twisting loading procedure required.
There won't be any ballistic information from these tiny soft lead bullets as they deform too badly and won't leave rifling marks. the only thing that can be done is trying to match the empty casings to the rifle. Firing pins marks on rimfire primers are not an exact science. Also, with a single action you don't get the same marks as you would from a semi-auto rifle or pistol. With a single shot revolver, however there would be no shell marks. Just primer firing pin indentation.
The point being is that they may not be able to match the spent rounds to this particular weapon. Although they may say they have. Mr. Brewers expert may want a shot at that as well.

[patschican]

The boys fingerprints will, of course be on the chipmunk rifle. It was 'his' gun. Prints from tiny .22 casings would not be so easy. Those prints would most likely smear on the brass from the twisting loading procedure required.
There won't be any ballistic information from these tiny soft lead bullets as they deform too badly and won't leave rifling marks. the only thing that can be done is trying to match the empty casings to the rifle. Firing pins marks are not an exact science. Also, with a single action you don't get the same marks as you would from a semi-auto rifle or pistol. With a single shot revolver, however there would be no shell marks. Just primer firing pin indentation.
The point being is that they may not be able to match the spent rounds to this particular weapon. Although they may say they have. Mr. Brewers expert may want a shot at that as well.

True, but even an amateur can determine if a gun has been fired recently, and I would think one of the first things they would do at the crime scene would be to pick up the gun, smell it, feel the barrel for heat...etc. I suspect they DID do that, hence the reason the PO interrogating the boy asked if there would be gunshot residue on his clothing.

[IAMME]

Pag Boi, I urge you to go here, download the documents, and take some time to read through them:

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/

Among the most telling, imo, are the state's disclosure and the transcripts of the advisory hearings, where you can follow the progression of the story alterations.

I ask you, if the rifle wasn't the gun used, or if the fingerprints on the rifle didn't match the boy's, or if his clothing showed no signs of gunshot residue, do you really think the state would be proceeding? Does anyone know about a massive brain tumor that the DA has that I am not privy to? Clearly, they're not going to proceed based only on the interrogation of the boy. The evidence must be supporting it, so I ask, why are you so convinced that this is a massive, county-wide conspiracy against an 8 year old boy?

It is my understanding that the prosecution dooesnt expect the results of those tests back before late January. I am not sure that by naming the witnesses they expect to use means that they have the tests back.

Justice dawg? What do you think?

[Hawk]

The barrel would have cooled in less than a minute. The odor from sniffing a barrel isn't going to tell you much. It will either smell like clean steel, or burnt gunpowder, it won't prove how long ago a gun was fired.

[wolfi_2]

Sorry, I disagree. If he did this....and I think he did....he needs to be in a secure residential treatment facility for MANY YEARS where he can get the INTENSIVE therapy he needs if he is EVER to be normal.

You seriously suggesting he should be at home, attend public school, and go to outpatient therapy for an hour or two a week? NO WAY!

I know of quite a few 11, 12, 13 & 14 year olds that have committed heinous violent acts. I know many REPEAT offenders that are only 13. I think it depends on the circumstances.

Just if he did it, here we don’t prosecute any child below 14,but he would get massive therapy also. The boy and his family would be also under supervision of the youth-office for a long time. But the main thing is, he should rehabilitated within his family if possible, or in a so called foster home. I don’t thing that a kid get in any closed jail-like-facility that help and love a kid need.

[tif]

Hmmm....I looked through many of the documents in the link you provided, JD, and I have to say that there's more evidence there for the boy's guilt than innocence. For example, in State's Disclosure, among the evidence listed are fingerprint experts and crime lab experts. They're not going to include this if the fingerprints on the gun don't match the boy's and if the gun is not absolutely determined to be the murder weapon.

Unlike the defense, the prosecutor must disclose all evidence whether helpful to the prosecution or not. They can't pick and choose the forensics they disclose.

I ask you, if the rifle wasn't the gun used, or if the fingerprints on the rifle didn't match the boy's, or if his clothing showed no signs of gunshot residue, do you really think the state would be proceeding? Does anyone know about a massive brain tumor that the DA has that I am not privy to? Clearly, they're not going to proceed based only on the interrogation of the boy. The evidence must be supporting it, so I ask, why are you so convinced that this is a massive, county-wide conspiracy against an 8 year old boy?

There are a plethora of cases over just the last two decades that would indicate that, yes, the prosecutor had a massive brain tumor and/or a personality disorder. Remember Nifong, not to mention the proven cases of false confessions obtained from adults and children? I don't think Nifong was an abberation; he just went too far and got caught.

[Crispy]

True, but even an amateur can determine if a gun has been fired recently, and I would think one of the first things they would do at the crime scene would be to pick up the gun, smell it, feel the barrel for heat...etc. I suspect they DID do that, hence the reason the PO interrogating the boy asked if there would be gunshot residue on his clothing.

The responding officers never mentioned(that I remember reading) that they touched or smelled the gun at the scene. Of course I've read a lot on this case, so I could have overlooked it.

[IAMME]

True, but even an amateur can determine if a gun has been fired recently, and I would think one of the first things they would do at the crime scene would be to pick up the gun, smell it, feel the barrel for heat...etc. I suspect they DID do that, hence the reason the PO interrogating the boy asked if there would be gunshot residue on his clothing.

Didn't brewer ask one of the officers that? Im sorry I thnk I recall reading something about them smelling it, and I cant remember if it was on this BB, or in the transcripts or where, and I realy dont want to go through all of the testimony to try to find it.

[bkwits]

The State's Disclosure lists fingerprint experts and crime lab experts, therefore, I assumed they were back from the labs.

No, they are not. Defense attorney Brewer is quite anxious to have them.

[patschican]

Didn't brewer ask one of the officers that? Im sorry I thnk I recall reading something about them smelling it, and I cant remember if it was on this BB, or in the transcripts or where, and I realy dont want to go through all of the testimony to try to find it.

I know, isn't that aggravating? There's so much information, it's hard to keep track of it all.

[patschican]

There are a plethora of cases over just the last two decades that would indicate that, yes, the prosecutor had a massive brain tumor and/or a personality disorder. Remember Nifong, not to mention the proven cases of false confessions obtained from adults and children? I don't think Nifong was an abberation; he just went too far and got caught.

Hahahahaaa...okay, I'll look into this prosecutor more. I don't know what you're talking about, so it looks like more research is in order...

[bkwits]

So, if we think the boy is guilty, we're horrible people who don't abide by the "innocent until proven guilty" principle, but it's okay to convict the prosecutor when he's simply under investigation?

I just find it hard to believe that anyone would be able to knowingly frame an 8 year old boy and sleep at night.

I don't think that LE and the DA started out to frame this child. They just bungled it completely. IMO

If you want to know about framing little kids, Google Ryan Harris murders, 1998.

[tif]

Hahahahaaa...okay, I'll look into this prosecutor more. I don't know what you're talking about, so it looks like more research is in order...

I think it was clear that I wasn't talking about this particular prosecutor, but that corruption exists in general. You really haven't heard of Nifong?

[Crispy]

I don't think that LE and the DA started out to frame this child. They just bungled it completely. IMO

If you want to know about framing little kids, Google Ryan Harris murders, 1998.

I agree bk. I don't think they want to frame this kid. I think they jumped a little too fast.

[IAMME]

I agree bk. I don't think they want to frame this kid. I think they jumped a little too fast.

And now they are in too deep to back down without losing face. It appears like several ppl involved have already been involved in scandals previously, and they are prb. quite reluctant to admit to poor judgement yet again......IMO

[bkwits]

The responding officers never mentioned(that I remember reading) that they touched or smelled the gun at the scene. Of course I've read a lot on this case, so I could have overlooked it.

Yes, I believe that Brewer asked Rodriquez if he touched the Chipmunk rifle. I don't remember if he asked if he smelled it.

[bkwits]

And now they are in too deep to back down without losing face. It appears like several ppl involved have already been involved in scandals previously, and they are prb. quite reluctant to admit to poor judgement yet again......IMO

Yes, I believe that is why they've been offering these plea deals. If defense would accept the plea deal, it could just go away until some later time, and Apache Co. LE and DA wouldn't have to be embarrassed by it any longer. IMO

[Crispy]

Yes, I believe that Brewer asked Rodriquez if he touched the Chipmunk rifle. I don't remember if he asked if he smelled it.

Thanks bk!!! I'll try to check the hearing transcripts.

[IAMME]

Yes, I believe that is why they've been offering these plea deals. If defense would accept the plea deal, it could just go away until some later time, and Apache Co. LE and DA wouldn't have to be embarrassed by it any longer. IMO


ITA, I think they are in total CYA mode, and this being the corrupt little town it is, this has worked well for them in the past, after all several not only still hold their original jobs but have had major promotions as well. The feds need to be involved. IMO

[bkwits]

I think it was clear that I wasn't talking about this particular prosecutor, but that corruption exists in general. You really haven't heard of Nifong?


I've read that his name has become a verb...like to nifong someone,is to manufacture evidence against that person.

[Details]

Hmmm....I looked through many of the documents in the link you provided, JD, and I have to say that there's more evidence there for the boy's guilt than innocence. For example, in State's Disclosure, among the evidence listed are fingerprint experts and crime lab experts. They're not going to include this if the fingerprints on the gun don't match the boy's and if the gun is not absolutely determined to be the murder weapon.

I'm curious, for those of you championing for this kid, if there is ample evidence of his guilt, where do you think he should be? Do you really think he should be free to be with his mother? I know it's hard to fathom someone so young doing such a heinous act, but it is possible, and assuming the state has sufficient evidence to charge him (which they appear to have), do you really think it's in the best interest of society for him to be free simply because he is a child?Actually - they are required to list all experts they are using - even - and especially - if there's a negative result. The defense has a right to that information. This is not proof that the boy's fingerprints were found anywhere unexpected, nor is it proof that they yet have shown which gun is the murder weapon. The defense has said the prosecution has provided zero evidence to them. The judge is in court talking about how long it will take, how long it always takes, to get the ballistics and other information back. What you think the prosecution has - there's no evidence that they have. Listing experts they are consulting or expect to consult is proof of nothing - they are required to provide that list, regardless of the result. Because it's a defense right to know about any exonerating evidence, as well as anything that goes the other way.


If he is proven to have killed the two men, he needs care, therapy, not jail. They need to find out why (mental illness? sexual abuse?), and work from there. And the fault, in the end, lies with whoever left the gun where a child, a child young enough that they don't understand the sanctity and fragility of life, a child young enough that the judgement centers of the brain are not fully formed - could get to a gun. Children - there's a reason we don't let them make decisions for themselves. It's because they are quite simply not capable. They'll want to kill someone for a temporary slight, and be best friends the next day, they'll eat candy for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, until they die, no matter how much we think we've taught them about nutrition - they're kids!

[Pag Boi]

Why? This is typical. A defense attorney files motions to suppress on things they know will hurt their client.

Same old same old.

imoo

OMG. Like evidence is never seized illegally. Does the State ever suppress evidence? Does the state ever present any "things" that will aide a defendant. Isn't is the job of the prosecutor to build a case against the defense atty's client? Shouldn't the majority of their case be to try and hurt the defendant? :shrug:


What do you think is the purpose of the laws that allow for motions to suppress? TIA

Same old. Same old laws that have protected our rights since the formation of our legal system. But you know already know that JMOO

[Details]

The State's Disclosure lists fingerprint experts and crime lab experts, therefore, I assumed they were back from the labs.No one has said this, and the defense and the judge have had discussions about how very long it takes to get results, how the results are NOT back, and how it's just about impossible to speed them up - a year is a normal time. You haven't read enough of the links yet, I guess.

[Details]

Didn't brewer ask one of the officers that? Im sorry I thnk I recall reading something about them smelling it, and I cant remember if it was on this BB, or in the transcripts or where, and I realy dont want to go through all of the testimony to try to find it.IIRC, there might have been a question if they did check it - and the answer was that the particular officer asked didn't check it. It doesn't mean it wasn't checked, smelled, etc. - but none of the officers asked said they did anything like that.

I'm a bit fuzzy on whether or not that exact question was asked, but quite clear on there never being a positive answer to the idea of smelling that gun, I don't think there was much of anything at all about the guns - only that they were collected. Nothing more.

[LindaNJ1216]

Unlike the defense, the prosecutor must disclose all evidence whether helpful to the prosecution or not. They can't pick and choose the forensics they disclose.



There are a plethora of cases over just the last two decades that would indicate that, yes, the prosecutor had a massive brain tumor and/or a personality disorder. Remember Nifong, not to mention the proven cases of false confessions obtained from adults and children? I don't think Nifong was an aberration; he just went too far and got caught.

IMO Nifong and cases like it are the exception, not the rule. He's eight ...and a prosecutor's worst nightmare!!!This prosecutor seems very reasonable to me.

[Details]

So, if we think the boy is guilty, we're horrible people who don't abide by the "innocent until proven guilty" principle, but it's okay to convict the prosecutor when he's simply under investigation?

I just find it hard to believe that anyone would be able to knowingly frame an 8 year old boy and sleep at night.Look into the Michael Crowe case. They aren't framing the boy, they're just proceding with a weak case. I think this is exactly another case like Crowe. It's not a deliberate thing, entirely - they start out looking into the case, find an easy suspect, go for him, get the false confession, then go far enough based on that that their ego, concerns for their professional reputation, etc. won't let them even think that they could be wrong - no matter how much shows up to suggest that (and, of course, here, they have no forensic info yet to give proof either way).

In many of these cases, so long as there's a single shred of possibility that they can still say the boy did it, they will - because the alternative is to recognize and admit that they were tormenting an innocent 8 year old boy who had just lost his father! To realize that is a harsh thing, and sometimes, for some people, they consciously or subconsciously protect themselves from that by refusing to look into other suspects, or evidence that might prove innocence, as long as possible.

In the Crowe case, the prosecutor had the true murderer's sweatshirt, from that night, in his posession all the time, IIRC, it took many years and a court order to finally force him to test it for blood - and there it was - the victim's blood. He didn't even want to look, to spare any time to test it, even while they had it. Perhaps because to look elsewhere was to consider the devastating possibility that he was wrong, that he was persecuting and trying to destroy a boy and his family when they should have been free to grieve for the death of the sister.


One good thing here - a new prosecutor will have less ego built into the case. He still might want to proceed, or he might look to the many other suspects here.

[LindaNJ1216]

Yes, I believe that is why they've been offering these plea deals. If defense would accept the plea deal, it could just go away until some later time, and Apache Co. LE and DA wouldn't have to be embarrassed by it any longer. IMO


IMO plea deals are are common place.....nothing abnormal about that! A plea deal in this case it would be the most humane course of action..He's 8 and needs help.

[LindaNJ1216]

Look into the Michael Crowe case. They aren't framing the boy, they're just proceeding with a weak case. I think this is exactly another case like Crowe. It's not a deliberate thing, entirely - they start out looking into the case, find an easy suspect, go for him, get the false confession, then go far enough based on that that their ego, concerns for their professional reputation, etc. won't let them even think that they could be wrong - no matter how much shows up to suggest that (and, of course, here, they have no forensic info yet to give proof either way).

In many of these cases, so long as there's a single shred of possibility that they can still say the boy did it, they will - because the alternative is to recognize and admit that they were tormenting an innocent 8 year old boy who had just lost his father! To realize that is a harsh thing, and sometimes, for some people, they consciously or subconsciously protect themselves from that by refusing to look into other suspects, or evidence that might prove innocence, as long as possible.

In the Crowe case, the prosecutor had the true murderer's sweatshirt, from that night, in his possession all the time, IIRC, it took many years and a court order to finally force him to test it for blood - and there it was - the victim's blood. He didn't even want to look, to spare any time to test it, even while they had it. Perhaps because to look elsewhere was to consider the devastating possibility that he was wrong, that he was persecuting and trying to destroy a boy and his family when they should have been free to grieve for the death of the sister.


One good thing here - a new prosecutor will have less ego built into the case. He still might want to proceed, or he might look to the many other suspects here.


That 8 year old didn't look devastated or traumatized in the least to me that he just "lost" his father. Matter of fact, the kid was cool as a cucumber

This is a no win situation for the prosecutor. I'm sure he's like nothing more than have an adult to charge with the crime...too bad there isn't one. Just a disturbed 8 year old.

[Crispy]

IMO plea deals are are common place.....nothing abnormal about that! A plea deal in this case it would be the most humane course of action..He's 8 and needs help.

If he's guilty of course:wink:

[Details]

That 8 year old didn't look devastated or traumatized in the least to me that he just "lost" his father. Matter of fact, the kid was cool as a cucumber

This is a no win situation for the prosecutor. I'm sure he's like nothing more than have an adult to charge with the crime...too bad there isn't one. Just a disturbed 8 year old.Adults defend themselves, know enough to lie, know enough not to confess falsely in most cases. They're much harder to prosecute. If they're knowingly - or not knowingly - going after an innocent kid because they managed to get something a bit like a confession ("I think" "maybe" and two gunshots rather than the actual number don't make for much of a real confession) - they're quite far from the first prosecutors to do so. There are many other good suspects - and they didn't take even a week to look into them, not even 24 hours, before they decided it was the kid.

Yeah, you see a lot that most others don't see, apparently. The kid's demeanor at his father's funeral (which he didn't get to attend), fingerprint evidence that still isn't available today, etc. The grandmother, even while she believes the kid did it - she on the other hand, talks about him sobbing into her the whole night. But, yeah, anyone who likes can judge the poor shocked child on his demeanor as two cops tell him they know he killed his father, and as he attempts to give them a story that will make it all stop.

[bkwits]

IMO Nifong and cases like it are the exception, not the rule. He's eight ...and a prosecutor's worst nightmare!!!This prosecutor seems very reasonable to me.

From reading your posts, I can understand why you would think that.

[Crispy]

6 new filings up!!

[Pag Boi]

Pag Boi, I urge you to go here, download the documents, and take some time to read through them:

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/

Among the most telling, imo, are the state's disclosure and the transcripts of the advisory hearings, where you can follow the progression of the story alterations.

I ask you, if the rifle wasn't the gun used, or if the fingerprints on the rifle didn't match the boy's, or if his clothing showed no signs of gunshot residue, do you really think the state would be proceeding? Does anyone know about a massive brain tumor that the DA has that I am not privy to? Clearly, they're not going to proceed based only on the interrogation of the boy. The evidence must be supporting it, so I ask, why are you so convinced that this is a massive, county-wide conspiracy against an 8 year old boy?

I have read. Thx for the tip tho

IMO Just b/c the state is proceeding doesn't mean that they have a strong case or that they did a thorough investigation. I haven't seen enough evidence to tell me an 8yo child killed Tim with 6 shots and all the other activities that allegedly transpired in less than 15 mins.

The state claims they don't have the evidence results back. Just that there was so much FE at the scene that they know this 8yo did this. Has somethinjg changed? I will double ck the link for updates in case I missed something.




I am very familiar with how the legal system works. Are yoiu? Clearly, we see things differently in this case. I do hope that is okay with you.


Where did I ever say that there was a county-wide coverup? TIA

To date, all that the state has presented is the confession of the boy. A snipped one. Where does it say what gun was used? How would LE have known the next day which gun the bullets came from? Why wouldn't the child's fingerprints be on his gun? Wonder why he could plot to kill 2 men but didn't think to wipe his prints off the murder weapon? Maybe they explained that to him along with GSR in his confession interview. You'd think during his alleged spanking time he would have thought up such little details :rolleyes:

[Hawk]

ITA, I think they are in total CYA mode, and this being the corrupt little town it is, this has worked well for them in the past, after all several not only still hold their original jobs but have had major promotions as well. The feds need to be involved. IMO

The FEDs won't get involved. It's a state crime.

[Crispy]

The defense wants a tape recording that could show important relevant data concerning a conflict between two investigating officers.

Wonder what this is about?

[bkwits]

IMO plea deals are are common place.....nothing abnormal about that! A plea deal in this case it would be the most humane course of action..He's 8 and needs help.

A plea deal that leaves nothing resolved? A plea deal that leaves this hanging over his head for years? A plea deal with no evidence on the table? A plea deal do LE doesn't pursue this case and perhaps a murderer is still running free.

Brewer was right to table any plea deal until he sees some evidence.

IMO

[Details]

The Motion to suppress statements is quite interesting - some seriously dirty tactics being used there by the officers.

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/MOTION%20TO%20SUPRESS%20STATEMENTS%20AND%20REQUEST %20FOR%20VOLUNTARINESS%20HEARING.pdf

They promised if he just answered their questions, he could go home to his mother. They told him they would not lie - and did, twice - something an adult would know, but a child has to believe the adults are telling the truth. They refused to allow any of the many family members there for the boy to be in the room. They broke the promises they made in order to get this interview.

Heh: "no way in hell" - just read until you find it - a funny bit.

[Crispy]

Apparently the CPS interview was done after he had an attorney and that attorney was not contacted about the interview. :eek:

[JD1974]

The Motion to suppress statements is quite interesting - some seriously dirty tactics being used there by the officers.

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/MOTION%20TO%20SUPRESS%20STATEMENTS%20AND%20REQUEST %20FOR%20VOLUNTARINESS%20HEARING.pdf

They promised if he just answered their questions, he could go home to his mother. They told him they would not lie - and did, twice - something an adult would know, but a child has to believe the adults are telling the truth. They refused to allow any of the many family members there for the boy to be in the room. They broke the promises they made in order to get this interview.

Heh: "no way in hell" - just read until you find it - a funny bit.


They didn't redact his name???



ETA Just got to the no way in hell...he is absolutely correct, no way would any kid do that!

[Details]

They didn't redact his name???Official court documents - they don't, apparently redact his name. They don't do it anywhere. News agencies do, and on the forum, we of course don't copy or quote anything with a name mentioned in it.

[Justice_Dawg]

The State's Disclosure lists fingerprint experts and crime lab experts, therefore, I assumed they were back from the labs.

They are not. Zip, Zilch, Nadda, Nothing. If you really read the papers, you would know that.

[Pag Boi]

The State's Disclosure lists fingerprint experts and crime lab experts, therefore, I assumed they were back from the labs.


Well, didn't you read your own link?

Again, I will ask you: how did LE know all this FE evidence existed at the time they charged the child? LE said under oath they only brought the boy in to question him because they thought he had seen something and he was scared. They claimed they had no idea he'd confess.

LE made the murder weapon & prints allegations the same time they released the video snippet. I can't understand LE's need to rush out in public and convict an 8yo. It is not normal. But it's my only my opinion. If you accept their statements as absolute, that is okay.

Just wondering - Why wouldn't the state put their own crime lab experts on their witness list? They have to disclose their findings to the defense. State doesn't have to call all their witnesses listed either. It's up to the finder(s) of fact to determine how valuable any testimony is. You seem to find it credible and you haven't even heard it yet :shrug: JMOO

[Crispy]

They didn't redact his name???

They don't redact his name on the court website. I think I have seen a couple times they did, but usually it's out there.

The family asked for someone to be in there with him and LE said no!

[IAMME]

The FEDs won't get involved. It's a state crime.

I do not mean they will investigate this case, they need to investigate the st johns PD and the county sherrifs office. And they can do that. Like I have said previously the FBI has been investigating in my county numerous times in the last several years. For things similar to some happening in this case, only the accused persons have all, so far, been adults in my county.....So I am going to have to disagree with you on that.

[Justice_Dawg]

The Motion to suppress statements is quite interesting - some seriously dirty tactics being used there by the officers.

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/MOTION%20TO%20SUPRESS%20STATEMENTS%20AND%20REQUEST %20FOR%20VOLUNTARINESS%20HEARING.pdf

They promised if he just answered their questions, he could go home to his mother. They told him they would not lie - and did, twice - something an adult would know, but a child has to believe the adults are telling the truth. They refused to allow any of the many family members there for the boy to be in the room. They broke the promises they made in order to get this interview.

Heh: "no way in hell" - just read until you find it - a funny bit.

Did you read about the recording that will provide important relevant data concerning a conflict between two investigating officers? :ohmy:

[Hawk]

We know that detective for a day Deborah Neckel lied when questioned by Mr. Brewer about criminal background checks on the two victims. At first she said they were clean, then later said she was aware of Mr. Romans having served prison time.

[bkwits]

That 8 year old didn't look devastated or traumatized in the least to me that he just "lost" his father. Matter of fact, the kid was cool as a cucumber

This is a no win situation for the prosecutor. I'm sure he's like nothing more than have an adult to charge with the crime...too bad there isn't one. Just a disturbed 8 year old.

Four years ago when I realized my husband was getting sick again (his cancer was coming back), I had a complete nerwous breakdown because I knew he couldn't make it through that again. It took months and months for me to recover. About one year after that my dh was hospitalized for over two months. I was there every day, all day. Sometimes all night.

When he passed away, I was numb. My kids came from CA with the grandkids. I was numb. I was numb for a long time. I don't remember crying at all during that time or the weeks that followed. I think I acted somewhat normal. I think our defense system shunts some feelings when they are just too much to bear.

I see this boy in the interrogation very much as I was. I don't see his demeanor as having any indication that he has no remorse or feelings for his father or what he saw. IMO

[LindaNJ1216]

A plea deal that leaves nothing resolved? A plea deal that leaves this hanging over his head for years? A plea deal with no evidence on the table? A plea deal do LE doesn't pursue this case and perhaps a murderer is still running free.

Brewer was right to table any plea deal until he sees some evidence.

IMO

Brewer may be legally correct to table it till he sees the evidence..

Morally, all he has to do is ASK HIS CLIENT.

In this case. I am more interested in the truth than seeing if a defense attorney can get off an 8 year old killer.

imo

[Hawk]

I do not mean they will investigate this case, they need to investigate the st johns PD and the county sherrifs office. And they can do that. Like I have said previously the FBI has been investigating in my county numerous times in the last several years. For things similar to some happening in this case, only the accused persons have all, so far, been adults in my county.....So I am going to have to disagree with you on that.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. Maybe they are already under investigation by the FEDs.
By all means disagree all you want. That's what forums are for.

[JD1974]

I am so glad Brewer is defending him, he seems to know what he is doing...and Tiffany, Grandma and Grandpa all asked if they could go in during interrogation and were told no IN FRONT OF HIM...why would he ever think if he asked that they be allowed in there that the answer would be different?

[Details]

I see we're in the Chrismas forum - to all those new to the case:

An 8 year old boy is accused of murdering his father and father's roommate, Tim.

After finding the bodies, the police talk to the boy for a little, he says he came home, saw a white car speeding away, saw them dead, went across the street to a friend's house, the friend's dad called 911. Many hours later, at the morgue or funeral home, the police bump into Tim's slightly estranged wife (he wasn't living in the family home anymore, reportedly has a mistress he just proposed to - but she appears to claim they had a good relationship, talked every day after work), who claims she was on the phone with Tim right before, and heard the boy call him into the house.

Based on this, they try to get the boy back for more questions - finally do, refuse to allow any family who come along to be in the room. Interrogated by police, the boy confessed (sorta - he said things in the line of "I think" and "maybe") to shooting them twice with his gun (confessed to a variety of stories depending on the questions - but that was the last one) - a confession that does not match the actual facts of the crime (for one of the mnon-matching details - his father was actually shot 4 times, Tim was shot 6 times).

So, they arrest the boy.

There are no forensics yet - no fingerprints, no ballistics, no way to know what gun is the murder weapon (the police version has the boy using a 22 single shot child/chipmunk rifle - which means he reloaded 10 times, and neither man managed to do anything while he was reloading), no blood, no gunshot residue, no witnesses, no nothing. Only Tim's wife's story about the phone call, and the confession.

[Pag Boi]

I bet you have never heard of a case where a prosecutor has hid evidence?

Has there ever been a case where LE just never bothered to look for evidence? :cool: TIA. Cuz according to some posts I read here, LE didn't see anything suspicious at the crime scene. Apparently that included the short interview with the 8yo at the crime scene.

I beleive that LE just stumbled upon this confession due to the terrific interview skills of the jail commander and the first day detective. :thumbsup:

[GentleBreeze]

Apparently the CPS interview was done after he had an attorney and that attorney was not contacted about the interview. :eek:

When did he talk to the caseworker? I thought it was the day after he was arrested.

This motion said he was appointed the boy's attorney on the 10th.

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/ORDER%20APPOINTING%20ATTORNEY.pdf

imoo

[Justice_Dawg]

Apparently the CPS interview was done after he had an attorney and that attorney was not contacted about the interview. :eek:

Another No No.:no:

[JD1974]

They don't redact his name on the court website. I think I have seen a couple times they did, but usually it's out there.

The family asked for someone to be in there with him and LE said no!


After I wrote it I realized that the only way I knew his name had to be from court filings from before because I don't think I have seen it posted anywhere...was just surprised to see it I guess. I posted about the family thing down below...disgusting behavior from LE if you ask me...

[Justice_Dawg]

Has there ever been a case where LE just never bothered to look for evidence? :cool: TIA. Cuz according to some posts I read here, LE didn't see anything suspicious at the crime scene. Apparently that included the short interview with the 8yo at the crime scene.

I beleive that LE just stumbled upon this confession due to the terrific interview skills of the jail commander and the first day detective. :thumbsup:

ROFLMAO.
:biggrin:

[JD1974]

Has there ever been a case where LE just never bothered to look for evidence? :cool: TIA. Cuz according to some posts I read here, LE didn't see anything suspicious at the crime scene. Apparently that included the short interview with the 8yo at the crime scene.

I beleive that LE just stumbled upon this confession due to the terrific interview skills of the jail commander and the first day detective. :thumbsup:


Don't forget all their training on dealing with questioning of an 8 year old possible murderer training at the academy! Just in time for the one who had only been a detective for the day, she was fresh out of class...

[LindaNJ1216]

Four years ago when I realized my husband was getting sick again (his cancer was coming back), I had a complete nerwous breakdown because I knew he couldn't make it through that again. It took months and months for me to recover. About one year after that my dh was hospitalized for over two months. I was there every day, all day. Sometimes all night.

When he passed away, I was numb. My kids came from CA with the grandkids. I was numb. I was numb for a long time. I don't remember crying at all during that time or the weeks that followed. I think I acted somewhat normal. I think our defense system shunts some feelings when they are just too much to bear.



I see this boy in the interrogation very much as I was. I don't see his demeanor as having any indication that he has no remorse or feelings for his father or what he saw. IMO

I am sincerely sorry for the loss of your husband. I honestly can't imagine the horror of cancer and someone you dearly love. I hope I never experience it.

I can understand being numb....I've been numb ...for months... but in my opinion, this child wasn't numb or in shock.

[Crispy]

How did we end up here? LOL

In the motion to supress, the defense says Dr. Cady says the juvenile is not fit to stand trial!!!

[Pag Boi]

Brewer may be legally correct to table it till he sees the evidence..

Morally, all he has to do is ASK HIS CLIENT.

In this case. I am more interested in the truth than seeing if a defense attorney can get off an 8 year old killer.

imo

Please enlighten us what was discussed in privileged conversations btwn Brewer and his client? TIA

You're interested in the truth? How will yoiu find that out if you don't wait to hear the all the details of this case? Or do you already know them?

[Crispy]

When did he talk to the caseworker? I thought it was the day after he was arrested.

This motion said he was appointed the boy's attorney on the 10th.

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/ORDER%20APPOINTING%20ATTORNEY.pdf

imoo

I'm sorry, I'm trying to read the motion and follow here. I believe it says that he was interviewed after he was arrested and that he didn't get his first Miranda warning until the hearing on the 8th. Defense says he has never received Miranda from LE.

Again, I'm reading fast, so I'll try to find the exact spot when I'm finished with the motion.

[Hawk]

How did we end up here? LOL

In the motion to supress, the defense says Dr. Cady says the juvenile is not fit to stand trial!!!

Now that's surprise!! From the defence doctor of all people.

[LindaNJ1216]

Please enlighten us what was discussed in privileged conversations btwn Brewer and his client? TIA

You're interested in the truth? How will yoiu find that out if you don't wait to hear the all the details of this case? Or do you already know them?

Apparently many here somehow know more than his own family and LE.

They must be psychic:blink::rolleyes:

[JD1974]

I just caught the you don't want to be in bigger trouble...when the officer said that they recorded calls was she saying Tim said that he shot him, or did I misread that?

[Crispy]

Now that's surprise!! From the defence doctor of all people.

Well no it's not a surprise. It's just the first that has been said about any of the competency hearings.