Dec. 22nd thru 12/29

[patschican]

Many of us on this board have taken time to follow this case for weeks. Some of us feel passionate about it for various reasons.

I find it a slightly arrogant to say that one doesn't have time to read and digest what's already been discussed, if you expect to discuss the case intelligently.

To just throw out opinions without any research, and then expect other posters to refute them with their own research is kind of selfish, don't you think?

No, I don't. It can be as simple as stating "bullet wounds showed entrances and exits from front and rear, which is not conducive to the boy's version." Then I have google words to play with. But when you guys say, "This case is screwed up, the cops are covering things up, nothing makes sense..."....what do I have to go on?

In fact, I have not seen a comprehensive list of why you think he's innocent. I've seen lists of other suspects, which of course should be checked out, but the inconsistencies in this case have not been clearly elucidated.

Honestly, it's as if you guys are not interested in conversing with anyone who has a contradictory opinion, which I thought was the point of a discussion board. The few people who also feel the boy is guilty have become strangely quiet lately. Either they're hunkering down for the holidays or they feel overwhelmed here.

Luckily, I never feel overwhelmed. You guys are stuck with me. So, here is my comprehensive list of why I think he is guilty. If you want to counter-argue these points, I welcome it:

1. The story alterations are entirely consistent with a guilty person who realizes he made mistakes and is trying to mitigate damages as he goes along. There are denials at first, then slips of the truth here and there, vagueness, then excuses from the suspect as to why he/she did certain things. This case is no different. He tried to deny, bob and weave and cover all bases. They ARE also consistent with someone who was coerced into a confession, however, the absence of the following (see next two points) makes me lean toward the former explanation.

2. He has never recanted. False confessions tend to be recanted within a short period of time after leaving the interrogation room. It is over a month later and we have not heard one word from his mother, his attorney, or anyone associated with this case saying that he recanted and that the only reason he confessed was because he felt pressure. We've heard people talk about how he wasn't mirandized and how susceptible kids are, but we have never heard, "He is completely innocent and his confession was entirely the result of coercion." Which leads to...

3. The mother has never come out and said her son did not do this. In her interview with Diane Sawyer, she never once said he was innocent. She claimed that she was not allowed to discuss the case, however, never, NEVER has a defense attorney forbidden a client or family members of a client from proclaiming his/her innocence to the public. IMO, she is not saying it because she knows it is not true, and to her credit, she appears to not want to lie. If it were my son and I honestly believed he was innocent and coerced into a completely false confession, I would be shouting it from the mountain tops.

4. The timeline. The shots were heard at 5:00, the police were called at 5:06. In that period of time, the boy went to his neighbors, the neighbor called the dad, the dad came home to check it out and called the police. This is not enough time for outside killers to get into their car, speed away (making no noise and leaving no tire tracks), a boy to stumble upon a scene, check to see if his dad was alive...etc., and all that jazz. It is, however, enough time for the boy to fire the last shot, throw the gun down, and run to the neighbors, his story already rehearsed in his mind.

And for the record, the reason, IMO, that the first story was told without hesitation was because it was the one that was rehearsed. As he realized the holes in the story and tried to patch them, he started getting into the "i thinks" and "maybes".

5. The grandparents statements, which you all seem to think indicates they're weird, but I think is indicative of the intuition that family members have.

[patschican]

I don't know what type of children you worked with - but they were not this little boy - statistically speaking. It's been almost 20 years since the last time an 8 year old child killed a parent - and that case involved violent abuse. So, obviously, there are not a bunch of 8 year old killers out there. But there are some pretty impressive stats about the number of false confessions out there. Putting police trained to get the truth from hardened adult criminals using all kinds of highly persuasive, effective, manipulative techniques, in the same room as a child, taught to respect and trust adults and accustomed to having to go with what they were told - it's a recipe for false confessions!

There are so many violent cases that don't make the news. During my internship, there was Girl X, 12 at the time, who had thrown a pot of boiling water at her sister for calling her hair "nappy". She had been there for two years, which means she was 10 at the time it happened. From what I know, there were no prior violent instances.

You know, the first time someone does something violent, there are no previous acts....

[wolfi_2]

There are so many violent cases that don't make the news. During my internship, there was Girl X, 12 at the time, who had thrown a pot of boiling water at her sister for calling her hair "nappy". She had been there for two years, which means she was 10 at the time it happened. From what I know, there were no prior violent instances.

You know, the first time someone does something violent, there are no previous acts....


OK, very, very sad! but at last, there was a reason, maybe, it was one word in a line of some annoy from the little sister to much.
To the current case,
If the boy does it, I have only one question, why did he shoot? I still can’t find any real reason.

[IAMME]

No, I don't. It can be as simple as stating "bullet wounds showed entrances and exits from front and rear, which is not conducive to the boy's version." Then I have google words to play with. But when you guys say, "This case is screwed up, the cops are covering things up, nothing makes sense..."....what do I have to go on?

In fact, I have not seen a comprehensive list of why you think he's innocent. I've seen lists of other suspects, which of course should be checked out, but the inconsistencies in this case have not been clearly elucidated.

Honestly, it's as if you guys are not interested in conversing with anyone who has a contradictory opinion, which I thought was the point of a discussion board. The few people who also feel the boy is guilty have become strangely quiet lately. Either they're hunkering down for the holidays or they feel overwhelmed here.

Luckily, I never feel overwhelmed. You guys are stuck with me. So, here is my comprehensive list of why I think he is guilty. If you want to counter-argue these points, I welcome it:

1. The story alterations are entirely consistent with a guilty person who realizes he made mistakes and is trying to mitigate damages as he goes along. There are denials at first, then slips of the truth here and there, vagueness, then excuses from the suspect as to why he/she did certain things. This case is no different. He tried to deny, bob and weave and cover all bases. They ARE also consistent with someone who was coerced into a confession, however, the absence of the following (see next two points) makes me lean toward the former explanation.

2. He has never recanted. False confessions tend to be recanted within a short period of time after leaving the interrogation room. It is over a month later and we have not heard one word from his mother, his attorney, or anyone associated with this case saying that he recanted and that the only reason he confessed was because he felt pressure. We've heard people talk about how he wasn't mirandized and how susceptible kids are, but we have never heard, "He is completely innocent and his confession was entirely the result of coercion." Which leads to...

3. The mother has never come out and said her son did not do this. In her interview with Diane Sawyer, she never once said he was innocent. She claimed that she was not allowed to discuss the case, however, never, NEVER has a defense attorney forbidden a client or family members of a client from proclaiming his/her innocence to the public. IMO, she is not saying it because she knows it is not true, and to her credit, she appears to not want to lie. If it were my son and I honestly believed he was innocent and coerced into a completely false confession, I would be shouting it from the mountain tops.

4. The timeline. The shots were heard at 5:00, the police were called at 5:06. In that period of time, the boy went to his neighbors, the neighbor called the dad, the dad came home to check it out and called the police. This is not enough time for outside killers to get into their car, speed away (making no noise and leaving no tire tracks), a boy to stumble upon a scene, check to see if his dad was alive...etc., and all that jazz. It is, however, enough time for the boy to fire the last shot, throw the gun down, and run to the neighbors, his story already rehearsed in his mind.

And for the record, the reason, IMO, that the first story was told without hesitation was because it was the one that was rehearsed. As he realized the holes in the story and tried to patch them, he started getting into the "i thinks" and "maybes".

5. The grandparents statements, which you all seem to think indicates they're weird, but I think is indicative of the intuition that family members have.


1. Most of us believe that the boy was coerced, his statements of "i think" and "maybe" are classic tells, also his voice and body language during that part of the interview are classic tells of a child who is not telling the truth. Most ppl seem to think the boys affect was flat during the interview, I strongly disagree, he is trying very hard to help the plice, his voice cracks when he is telling them he was running around the house yelling "dad", as someone who has actually been trained to assess a childs affect I have to say that it is my professional opinion that he is a traumatized child who does not show a flat affect.

2. We do not know that he has not recanted, and even if he hasnt, at this point he may not know what happened, the police told him someone saw him commit these murders, the police told him that tim told tanya that he shot him, WTH? he is 8 years old for gods sake, he may not know what the truth IS at this point. He may also be too afraid to tell if he witnessed anything.

3. There is a gag order.

4.We do not know what time the shots were heard. All we know is that they were heard about 5. I just looked at the clock, it is about 4:30, in actuality it is 4:23 by my clock, we will see what time this posts at.

5. The grandparents were given false information. They ARE weird, they thought that him crying and clinging after finding his father dead was a behaviour that proved guilt.

[Justice_Dawg]

# 2 - 8 year-old suspected of double-murder - 22%



A double murder in a small Arizona town would be shocking on its own, but when police charged a small boy with the crime it was almost too much for the small eastern Arizona town of Saint Johns to handle.

November 5th Saint Johns police were called to a local home where they found Vincent Romero and Tim Romans dead.

Both had been shot several times with a 22-calibur rifle.

The next day, Romero's eight-year-old son was brought in for questioning.

The interview began with the boy claiming came home to find both men shot, but soon shocking admissions from the boy with the little voice.

“I called my dad and then I called him and then I got my gun and I fired it at my dad,” he said.

By the time the hour long interview wrapped up, the child had become the accused.

But no sooner than the interview tapes were released, were people calling foul.

“This child probably had no idea that he was being interrogated, or that he was being questioned,” Andre Grant said.

Investigators claim they began the interview without an adult present or reading the boy his rights, because they believed he was a victim.

But the interview apparently convinced police the murders were premeditated and the boy was charged with two counts of first degree murder.

The prosecution shocked everyone by filing a motion to drop one of the murder charges against the boy.

“They know that the confession that he gave to the police is totally inadmissible therefore they have to go back and get other evidence,” Judge Steven Gerst said.

And then there was buzz about a plea deal, but at a status conference earlier this month the judge said he would make no rulings the boy's mental competency evaluations are completed.

The judge went onto say the justice system was not equipped to handle an eight-year-old accused of murder.

It seems just about everyone has an opinion on what to do with the little boy accused of two brutal murders.

The bottom line is no matter where it happened or how this all turns out, this is one case that has already made its way into the pages of Arizona history.

http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/stories/phoenix-local-news-122508-unforgettable-stories.74021ef.html

[Hawk]

St. Johns PD version (roughly)

When the 2nd grade boy got off the school bus he went straight home, just as he had been instructed. There would be no one to greet him there, though, and wouldn’t be for an hour or two. His dad usually arrived from work a little before 5:00pm. It was Wednesday, so his stepmom should arrive around the same time. He had plenty of time to accomplish the deed he’d planned for some time.
Once the eight year old entered the house he tossed his book bag under a table on the lower floor, probably spoke to his boxer puppy, Nellie, yelping in her cage, and then went upstairs to get his rifle.
It didn’t take long to retrieve it from his dad’s bedroom closet. It wasn’t locked up or secured in any way.
His Chipmunk .22 is a small, very slow loading gun. But at 2 ½ pounds and 30” in length the gun fit the boys 4’ small frame pretty well. His dad had given it to him and taught him to use it. They’d hunted together often, sometimes with Tim, a boarder in the home. Tim is a friend and co-worker of his dads.
Before going down stairs he filled his right pants pocket with .22 LR cartridges, chambering one so he’d be ready.
At around 4:52 he watched through the window as Tim’s silver Dodge truck stopped in front of the house and his dad emerged from the passengers’ side. The truck was only 20 feet from the front door.
What if both men came inside together? Would he abort and hustle to hide his rifle before his dad saw it? There would be no time for that.
The boy scurried behind the stairs. The front door opened and his dad walked up the stairs calling the boys name. Quick as a flash the kid circled from his hiding spot, took two steps up the stairs and fired at his dad who was stepping up to the first landing where the stairs made a 90 degree turn. The bullet struck his dad in the upper back piercing a lung, or left arm near the elbow, causing him to freeze in shock., and allowing the boy time to eject the spent round, insert another, ram and lock the bolt forward, pull the firing pin rod back, aim and fire again. Then he ejected the empty shell. His dad was hit once more but managed to turn right and climb the stairs to just below the top landing. It was there on the upper stairs that he collapsed. But he wasn’t dead. Not yet.
The boy rushed upstairs where he reloaded and shot his dad in the head. Then he repeated the process once more, leaving both empty casings upstairs. Blood poured from the last two wounds. Brain matter was on the wall.
He calmly reloaded after he climbed over his dad’s dead body and hurried down the stairs. Once on the 1st floor he looked out the window. Tim was talking on his cell phone.
The boy opened the door and began pleading for Tim to come inside. There was something wrong he shouted. “Come in NOW!” he yelled as he stepped outside onto the concrete porch.
The first shot hit Tim’s forearm causing blood to drip on the ground as he came toward the house.
The boy went through the slow ejection/reloading, cocking and aiming process then fired again when Tim was closer. This was a chest shot to the right lung or heart. Yet Tim may have taken another step. The boy went through the loading process before pulling the trigger. This was another chest hit. Tim fell to the ground.
But the boy wasn’t satisfied. Not even close. He took the time to shoot Tim three more times in the head. The blood pool was massive.
Once the boy had done his dirty work he walked back inside, loaded his little rifle one more time, just in case, then placed it on top of Nellie’s dog cage. After a quick check to be sure he hadn’t dropped any unspent cartridges on the floor he took the remaining ones from his pants pocket and put them back in the box.
He’d kept track of the ten shots he’d fired but didn’t concern himself with the spent casings he left where they fell.
Very cool customer this 8 year old murderer. Ice water pumping through his veins. Hate in his young heart.
No one alive saw him do the killings. Even the neighbors who claimed to have heard shots didn’t bother to look out their windows.

The boy rushed to a friend’s house to report the tragedy.

It was 5:00pm.

[Justice_Dawg]

St. Johns PD version (roughly)

When the 2nd grade boy got off the school bus he went straight home, just as he had been instructed. There would be no one to greet him there, though, and wouldn’t be for an hour or two. His dad usually arrived from work a little before 5:00pm. It was Wednesday, so his stepmom should arrive around the same time. He had plenty of time to accomplish the deed he’d planned for some time.
Once the eight year old entered the house he tossed his book bag under a table on the lower floor, probably spoke to his boxer puppy, Nellie, yelping in her cage, and then went upstairs to get his rifle.
It didn’t take long to retrieve it from his dad’s bedroom closet. It wasn’t locked up or secured in any way.
His Chipmunk .22 is a small, very slow loading gun. But at 2 ½ pounds and 30” in length the gun fit the boys 4’ small frame pretty well. His dad had given it to him and taught him to use it. They’d hunted together often, sometimes with Tim, a boarder in the home. Tim is a friend and co-worker of his dads.
Before going down stairs he filled his right pants pocket with .22 LR cartridges, chambering one so he’d be ready.
At around 4:52 he watched through the window as Tim’s silver Dodge truck stopped in front of the house and his dad emerged from the passengers’ side. The truck was only 20 feet from the front door.
What if both men came inside together? Would he abort and hustle to hide his rifle before his dad saw it? There would be no time for that.
The boy scurried behind the stairs. The front door opened and his dad walked up the stairs calling the boys name. Quick as a flash the kid circled from his hiding spot, took two steps up the stairs and fired at his dad who was stepping up to the first landing where the stairs made a 90 degree turn. The bullet struck his dad in the upper back piercing a lung, or left arm near the elbow, causing him to freeze in shock., and allowing the boy time to eject the spent round, insert another, ram and lock the bolt forward, pull the firing pin rod back, aim and fire again. Then he ejected the empty shell. His dad was hit once more but managed to turn right and climb the stairs to just below the top landing. It was there on the upper stairs that he collapsed. But he wasn’t dead. Not yet.
The boy rushed upstairs where he reloaded and shot his dad in the head. Then he repeated the process once more, leaving both empty casings upstairs. Blood poured from the last two wounds. Brain matter was on the wall.
He calmly reloaded after he climbed over his dad’s dead body and hurried down the stairs. Once on the 1st floor he looked out the window. Tim was talking on his cell phone.
The boy opened the door and began pleading for Tim to come inside. There was something wrong he shouted. “Come in NOW!” he yelled as he stepped outside onto the concrete porch.
The first shot hit Tim’s forearm causing blood to drip on the ground as he came toward the house.
The boy went through the slow ejection/reloading, cocking and aiming process then fired again when Tim was closer. This was a chest shot to the right lung or heart. Yet Tim may have taken another step. The boy went through the loading process before pulling the trigger. This was another chest hit. Tim fell to the ground.
But the boy wasn’t satisfied. Not even close. He took the time to shoot Tim three more times in the head. The blood pool was massive.
Once the boy had done his dirty work he walked back inside, loaded his little rifle one more time, just in case, then placed it on top of Nellie’s dog cage. After a quick check to be sure he hadn’t dropped any unspent cartridges on the floor he took the remaining ones from his pants pocket and put them back in the box.
He’d kept track of the ten shots he’d fired but didn’t concern himself with the spent casings he left where they fell.
Very cool customer this 8 year old murderer. Ice water pumping through his veins. Hate in his young heart.
No one alive saw him do the killings. Even the neighbors who claimed to have heard shots didn’t bother to look out their windows.

The boy rushed to a friend’s house to report the tragedy.

It was 5:00pm.

Makes sense to me.

:lol::lol::lol:

[Pag Boi]

Aaaah. It is very clear to me that one-a-day Detective Neckels isn't the only person that can't keep up with this case. I had such high hopes.

TIA to all those that try to minimize all the confusion this debacle.

[Hawk]

Aaaah. It is very clear to me that one-a-day Detective Neckels isn't the only person that can't keep up with this case. I had such high hopes.

TIA to all those that try to minimize the confusion this debacle.

Say what? Maybe you expect too much.

[Details]

patschican - if you don't see posters saying why they don't think the boy is guilty - IMO, you aren't reading much. It's been stated and restated. But here's some of the key points one more time.

1. The confession is a classic fake confession - not just my opinion - but the opinion of other legal experts. "I think" "maybe", a failure to match the facts of the case, errors in the confession that have nothing to do with minmizing his guilt (an error in a confession where a suspect claims to have shot fewer times than is reality could perhaps be a conscious or subconscious attempt to minimize their guilty - but an error about where you put the gun that does nothing at all to minimize your guilt - there's no reason for that other than that you are trying to make up a story, and don't know where the gun really was), the story changing to fit every detail the detectives ask him to fit.

2. Physical facts of the case don't fit the boy, nor the gun. Tim's blood trail heads towards the house - and away from his truck where he has a handgun - and away from the shelter of the truck - towards the shooter, were the boy the shooter - without calling police on the cell phone we know (if his wife's story is to be believed) he had. There are shells above and below the father on the stairs. An 8 year old boy's legs, even a large one - and this boy is not large - will carry him over the corpse of his father to fire from the other side of the stairs, without him getting blood all over. An incredibly neat methodolical killer - 10 shots, reloading for each one, never dropping a shell - the boy's room is typical kid messy, as is the house - it doesn't fit. 10 shots, with a single-shot shotgun, against grown men, 22 shells that don't tend to kill instantly - and no defensive wounds on the men nor the boy. Not a scratch. The father is shot, let's say, from behind (contrary to the old idea the boy's guess that he was shot in the chest meant he knew a detail fo the crime scene), the killer has to reload 3 more times, shoots him in the arm (no reason to, unless someone is moving and you miss your target), and in the head, before the father can put up any type of fight. Tim, shot in the driveway, outside, somehow the killer can load the gun, shoot again and again, without Tim stopping him between reloads. This doesn't fit. The Mossberg - same ammo, but with a 10 shot magazine - that fits.

3. Suspect testimony - the one and only piece of evidence suggesting the boy is from Tim's wife. Tim's wife is the natural prime suspect in this case. First off, she's his wife - we all know the sad statistics, you are most likely to be killed by those closest to you. So normally the police would indeed be asking her a few questions to clear or implicate her. Second, he's having an affair, proposing to a girlfriend, living in a different house. Third, Tim has the most bullets in him, suggesting he is the main target of this crime.

4. Police behavior - Police behavior in this case does not suggest they are doing a good, ethical job of investigating the case. Plenty of omissions, hugely unethical behavior when interrogating the boy without Miranda, excluding family members from the room, the confession tape being posted on YouTube, etc.


I know I'm forgetting some - but there are many reasons to believe this boy innocent. The crime scene doesn't fit him, the confession misses on several details that he'd have no reason to lie about, the one witness against him is a prime suspect in this type of case.

[Crispy]

patschican
I personally have never said I believe 100% that he is innocent or guilty and I've never tried to bully any other poster into not posting their opinion, but I'll try to go through your points and let you know what I think.

1. The confession is hard to comment on. I don't think it proves his guilt or innocence.

2. We don't know that he hasn't recanted. We don't get to hear what he says to his lawyers and he's not allowed to discuss the case with his mother for her to say he recanted. I don't think in this stage of the game his lawyer is going to comment on what his client has or hasn't said. I think that will come out at trial, most likely when the child confession expert or the evaluations are testified to. Also there is a gag order.

3. I'm sure there are plenty of defense attorneys that tell their clients and the families to keep their mouth shut. That's pretty much the first thing they do.

4. The timing bugs me too, but it seems what your saying is that 6 minutes isn't enough time for someone to get in their car and drive away, but it is enough time for the boy to finish killing Tim, put the gun in the house, run to the neighbors, tell the story to the friends brother, the brother to call his dad and tell the story to him, the dad to drive to his house from work, and then for the dad to call 911.

5. I don't know what to think about the grandparents and their comments.

None of it really makes much sense and it doesn't help that we only get bits and pieces of information. That's just what I think so take it for what it's worth and sorry for the long post.

[Details]

Family opinions are unreliable to me. They're grieving over the loss of their son, fearing the loss of their grandson - not a rational point in time. We've seen family of obviously guilty people maintain belief, apparently honestly, that their family member could never do what they are accused of, and we've heard sad stories of the wrongly accused abandoned by some, much, or all of their family.

Why the grandparents said what they did - I think they were trying to comprehend two conflicting realities - the son and grandson they knew, and police information that appeared to prove the grandson guilty (confession plus knowledge that the father was shot in the chest plus knowledge that each person was shot twice - you'd have to accept that your family member was guilty - until you find out how much of that was lies). From there, you've got to try to understand why, believe you could have seen it coming.

[Crispy]

Another thing, we only know a little about what the grandparents said. The grandmother didn't finish her conversation with police that day and we don't know what they have said since.

[Justice_Dawg]

Tim wasn't Apache, or Navajo. He was just married to one. I bet that was a shock to LE.

Like someone once said to me.."the little boy with the dark skin didn't have a chance in that county".

And Apache County chose their NEW chief carefully last July...who we KNOW is the ring leader of racism.

[Justice_Dawg]

Must be my problem. LOL All I wanted for Christmas was to be clearly eludicated. Luckily I am underwhelmed (and easily amused) by the scholars and experts that grace our great message board. :patriot:

Here, have some Crowe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkLHXKHb1Vc&feature=channel_page

[Hawk]

Must be my problem. LOL All I wanted for Christmas was to be clearly eludicated. Luckily I am underwhelmed (and easily amused) by the scholars and experts that grace our great message board. :patriot:


We can't all be highly eludicated experts and scholars. Some of us are just simple folks looking for sensible answers.

[Hawk]

many crimes..especially murder... make no sense at all..:cool:

There's always a reason to cause a person to do an act. The act made sense to someone at the time it was committed.

[LindaNJ1216]

No, I don't. It can be as simple as stating "bullet wounds showed entrances and exits from front and rear, which is not conducive to the boy's version." Then I have google words to play with. But when you guys say, "This case is screwed up, the cops are covering things up, nothing makes sense..."....what do I have to go on?

In fact, I have not seen a comprehensive list of why you think he's innocent. I've seen lists of other suspects, which of course should be checked out, but the inconsistencies in this case have not been clearly elucidated.

Honestly, it's as if you guys are not interested in conversing with anyone who has a contradictory opinion, which I thought was the point of a discussion board. The few people who also feel the boy is guilty have become strangely quiet lately. Either they're hunkering down for the holidays or they feel overwhelmed here.

Luckily, I never feel overwhelmed. You guys are stuck with me. So, here is my comprehensive list of why I think he is guilty. If you want to counter-argue these points, I welcome it:

1. The story alterations are entirely consistent with a guilty person who realizes he made mistakes and is trying to mitigate damages as he goes along. There are denials at first, then slips of the truth here and there, vagueness, then excuses from the suspect as to why he/she did certain things. This case is no different. He tried to deny, bob and weave and cover all bases. They ARE also consistent with someone who was coerced into a confession, however, the absence of the following (see next two points) makes me lean toward the former explanation.

2. He has never recanted. False confessions tend to be recanted within a short period of time after leaving the interrogation room. It is over a month later and we have not heard one word from his mother, his attorney, or anyone associated with this case saying that he recanted and that the only reason he confessed was because he felt pressure. We've heard people talk about how he wasn't mirandized and how susceptible kids are, but we have never heard, "He is completely innocent and his confession was entirely the result of coercion." Which leads to...

3. The mother has never come out and said her son did not do this. In her interview with Diane Sawyer, she never once said he was innocent. She claimed that she was not allowed to discuss the case, however, never, NEVER has a defense attorney forbidden a client or family members of a client from proclaiming his/her innocence to the public. IMO, she is not saying it because she knows it is not true, and to her credit, she appears to not want to lie. If it were my son and I honestly believed he was innocent and coerced into a completely false confession, I would be shouting it from the mountain tops.

4. The timeline. The shots were heard at 5:00, the police were called at 5:06. In that period of time, the boy went to his neighbors, the neighbor called the dad, the dad came home to check it out and called the police. This is not enough time for outside killers to get into their car, speed away (making no noise and leaving no tire tracks), a boy to stumble upon a scene, check to see if his dad was alive...etc., and all that jazz. It is, however, enough time for the boy to fire the last shot, throw the gun down, and run to the neighbors, his story already rehearsed in his mind.

And for the record, the reason, IMO, that the first story was told without hesitation was because it was the one that was rehearsed. As he realized the holes in the story and tried to patch them, he started getting into the "i thinks" and "maybes".

5. The grandparents statements, which you all seem to think indicates they're weird, but I think is indicative of the intuition that family members have.

I agree with every word! I am only quiet because I have my in-laws here for the holidays. I try to check in and keep up...but probably won't be posting much in the next few days....unless I can get rid of them by sending em to the movies or something:)

[Hawk]

I agree with every word! I am only quiet because I have my in-laws here for the holidays. I try to check in and keep up...but probably won't be posting much in the next few days....unless I can get rid of them by sending em to the movies or something:)

The foundation of this case is based upon the child's physical and emotional ability to accomplish the murders he is accused of.
Others might comment on his emotional ability, good for them. I am more concerned with the basic fact that this child, acting alone, could not have physically done what the government claims he did.

[LindaNJ1216]

The foundation of this case is based upon the child's physical and emotional ability to accomplish the murders he is accused of.
Others might comment on his emotional ability, good for them. I am more concerned with the basic fact that this child, acting alone, could not have physically done what the government claims he did.

And in my opinion, getting off 10 shots in 6 minutes was the EASY part.

[Hawk]

And in my opinion, getting off 10 shots in 6 minutes was the EASY part.

Yes, if you're shooting at beer cans with a bolt action single shot rifle. These are shots taken at two young and healthy construction workers with firearm experience. They wouldn't have stood still while the child reloaded to shoot them again. Both victims would have been aggressive, flee or attack to save their own lives.

[GentleBreeze]

Yes, if you're shooting at beer cans with a bolt action single shot rifle. These are shots taken at two young and healthy construction workers with firearm experience. They wouldn't have stood still while the child reloaded to shoot them again. Both victims would have been aggressive, flee or attack to save their own lives.

That seems not to be the case. Three of the four shots were done when Mr. Romero had his back to the shooter. Only one was where the shooter was in front of him. He may have tried to flee up the stairs to get away from the shooter when first fired upon but imo he was incapacitated with the back shot or the shot that went into his left jaw and he fell laying body down on the second section of the stairs. The fourth and close up shot was done when Romero was already down and helpless imo.

With Mr. Romans imo the first shot was probably from 24 feet away and was to his forearm. He may have felt a slight sting and didn't realize he had been shot. We have no idea how close he was to the shooter when he received the chest shots. He could have been close enough to the porch to stagger forward a few feet then be shot again, falling on the porch, all the while being fired upon. I think he also was rendered helpless very quickly.

I agree with Linda, getting off 10 shots with a single shot bolt action rifle is very doable. I don't even think it took him 6 minutes to accomplish the deed, when the two victims were unaware that grave danger lurked, until it was too late to try and flee to save their lives. A human being is a much larger and easier target than killing a small prairie dog from yards away.

imoo

[ChildsVOICE]

links of police reports:

St. Johns' PD Chief of Police, Roy Melnick's police report
(Incident department 081105041/ Supplemental Report 4/ numbered 000166,000167,000168 at bottom right of each page)

NOTE THE "Reported Date & Time is 11/05/2008 at 17:03 (5:03)
http://www.azcentral.com/ic/pdf/1126stjohnsuppreport.pdf

COURT PUBLIC DOCUMENTS:

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/womack.pdf

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/avila.pdf

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/PoliceRadioTranscript.pdf

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/PoliceRadioTranscript.pdf

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/PoliceRadioTranscript.pdf

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/InterviewDVDChristian.pdf

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/searchwarrantresidence.pdf

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/SearchWarrant%20BO.pdf

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/searchwarrantpropertysupp%20BO.pdf

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/searchwarrantpropertysupp%20BO.pdf

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/neckel%20BO.pdf

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/neckel2.pdf

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/jones%20BO.pdf

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/morales.pdf

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/morales.pdf

[Hawk]

That seems not to be the case. Three of the four shots were done when Mr. Romero had his back to the shooter. Only one was where the shooter was in front of him. He may have tried to flee up the stairs to get away from the shooter when first fired upon but imo he was incapacitated with the back shot or the shot that went into his left jaw and he fell laying body down on the second section of the stairs. The fourth and close up shot was done when Romero was already down and helpless imo.

With Mr. Romans imo the first shot was probably from 24 feet away and was to his forearm. He may have felt a slight sting and didn't realize he had been shot. We have no idea how close he was to the shooter when he received the chest shots. He could have been close enough to the porch to stagger forward a few feet then be shot again, falling on the porch, all the while being fired upon. I think he also was rendered helpless very quickly.

I agree with Linda, getting off 10 shots with a single shot bolt action rifle is very doable. I don't even think it took him 6 minutes to accomplish the deed, when the two victims were unaware that grave danger lurked, until it was too late to try and flee to save their lives. A human being is a much larger and easier target than killing a small prairie dog from yards away.

imoo

I guess you've never been fired upon.
You miss the point. Neither a .22 cal. chest wound, lung or heart, will stop a human in their tracks. The bullet is too small for total heart failure and oxygen still flows for a several seconds (or even minutes depending on the damage) to the brain. Shock may slow a human but it would have to incapacitate a person beyond the point of self preservation. It takes awhile to perish. This is as true in St. Johns as it is in the rest of the world.

[Hawk]

links of police reports:

St. Johns' PD Chief of Police, Roy Melnick's police report
(Incident department 081105041/ Supplemental Report 4/ numbered 000166,000167,000168 at bottom right of each page)

NOTE THE "Reported Date & Time is 11/05/2008 at 17:03 (5:03)
http://www.azcentral.com/ic/pdf/1126stjohnsuppreport.pdf

COURT PUBLIC DOCUMENTS:

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/womack.pdf

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/avila.pdf

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/PoliceRadioTranscript.pdf

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/PoliceRadioTranscript.pdf

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/PoliceRadioTranscript.pdf

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/InterviewDVDChristian.pdf

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/searchwarrantresidence.pdf

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/SearchWarrant%20BO.pdf

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/searchwarrantpropertysupp%20BO.pdf

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/searchwarrantpropertysupp%20BO.pdf

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/neckel%20BO.pdf

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/neckel2.pdf

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/jones%20BO.pdf

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/morales.pdf

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/morales.pdf

Wow! Thanks!

[Hawk]

We should determine in our own minds what physically happened that afternoon. Then we can proceed to what needs to be done.

[GentleBreeze]

I guess you've never been fired upon.
You miss the point. Neither a .22 cal. chest wound, lung or heart, will stop a human in their tracks. The bullet is too small for total heart failure and oxygen still flows for a several seconds (or even minutes depending on the damage) to the brain. Shock may slow a human but it would have to incapacitate a person beyond the point of self preservation. It takes awhile to perish. This is as true in St. Johns as it is in the rest of the world.

I do not agree and on this board we don't have to.

I never said the first shot immediately incapacitated them. I never said immediate total heart failure. In fact I will never say "never" because there are variables in each and every case. Whether death is immediate or not incapacitation can happen within seconds, imo according to where the person was shot and how close the gun was fired when they hit their target. The closer the more lethal. .22 rifles are meant to be used for long distance shooting. They have higher velocity than a .22 handgun. Many hit men have used .22s to get the job done.

imoo

[Hawk]

That seems not to be the case. Three of the four shots were done when Mr. Romero had his back to the shooter. Only one was where the shooter was in front of him. He may have tried to flee up the stairs to get away from the shooter when first fired upon but imo he was incapacitated with the back shot or the shot that went into his left jaw and he fell laying body down on the second section of the stairs. The fourth and close up shot was done when Romero was already down and helpless imo.

With Mr. Romans imo the first shot was probably from 24 feet away and was to his forearm. He may have felt a slight sting and didn't realize he had been shot. We have no idea how close he was to the shooter when he received the chest shots. He could have been close enough to the porch to stagger forward a few feet then be shot again, falling on the porch, all the while being fired upon. I think he also was rendered helpless very quickly.

I agree with Linda, getting off 10 shots with a single shot bolt action rifle is very doable. I don't even think it took him 6 minutes to accomplish the deed, when the two victims were unaware that grave danger lurked, until it was too late to try and flee to save their lives. A human being is a much larger and easier target than killing a small prairie dog from yards away.

imoo

A human is much harder to hit than a prairie dog. Humans have the natural ability to see imminent danger. And take evasive action. That's why we are the dominant species of the planet!
Ten shots within the time-frame from one human to another is ridiculous.

[Hawk]

I do not agree and on this board we don't have to.

I never said the first shot immediately incapacitated them. I never said immediate total heart failure. In fact I will never say "never" because there are variables in each and every case. Whether death is immediate or not incapacitation can happen within seconds, imo according to where the person was shot and how close the gun was fired when they hit their target. The closer the more lethal. .22 rifles are meant to be used for long distance shooting. They have higher velocity than a .22 handgun. Many hit men have used .22s to get the job done.

imoo

A .22 was never meant for long distance shooting. It is an extremely weak round and meant for short shots. If you know someone who shoots .22 rounds at a 100 yard target please share the info.

[Hawk]

A human is much harder to hit than a prairie dog. Humans have the natural ability to see imminent danger. And take evasive action. That's why we are the dominant species of the planet!
Ten shots within the time-frame from one human to another is ridiculous.

Mr. Romans wasn't shot in the back.

[PensiveOne]

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/womack.pdf

Page 8...This Dana guy thought the gun was Vince's wife's gun!!!

Dana replied, "Yes." I asked, when. Dana said he has handled Vincent's wife's rifle, a little pea shooter, .22 rifle at Vincent's place.

[Hawk]

How callus is Mayberry? They post a photo of five 100 dollar bills on the corpse of Mr. Romans. This is an obvious attempt to relate the murders to the meth problem.

[GentleBreeze]

Mr. Romans wasn't shot in the back.

Huh? Who said he was?

Quote
Three of the four shots were done when Mr. Romero had his back to the shooter.

And yes, even if you take 25 to 50 yards for a .22 rifle target versus 24 feet and closer, it becomes more lethal than if fired from 75 to 150 feet away.

.22 bullets can travel up to a mile if they are shot in a straight line.

imoo

[Hawk]

Huh? Who said he was?

Quote
Three of the four shots were done when Mr. Romero had his back to the shooter.

And yes, even if you take 25 to 50 yards for a .22 rifle target versus 24 feet and closer, it becomes more lethal than if fired from 75 to 150 feet away.

.22 bullets can travel up to a mile if they are shot in a straight line.

imoo

Mr. Romans was shot once the arm, twice in the chest (one right lung shot and one heart shot). He wasn't shot in the back.
A .22 is by far the weakest of bullets. At a 100 yards it is worthless. These guys weren't shot from a mile away.

I'm sorry to be so repetitive, but I have actual vast years and experience with firearms. I don't have to depend on Internet links.

[GentleBreeze]

Mr. Romans was shot once the arm, twice in the chest (one right lung shot and one heart shot). He wasn't shot in the back.
A .22 is by far the weakest of bullets. At a mile it is worthless. These guys weren't shot from a mile away.

I'm sorry to be so repetitive, but I have actual vast years and experience with firearms. I don't have to depend on Internet links.

I know exactly where Romans was shot but I have no clue why you are repeating yourself about that. I have never said Romans was shot in the back, in the first place.

Well on here you just have an opinion like any other poster. I do not agree with your concept no matter how you try to embellish your experience.

You certainly aren't the only one here who has vast experience in firearms.

imo

[Hawk]

I know exactly where Romans was shot but I have no clue why you are repeating yourself about that. I have never said Romans was shot in the back, in the first place.

Well on here you just have an opinion like any other poster. I do not agree with your concept no matter how you try to embellish your experience.

You certainly aren't the only one here who has vast experience in firearms.

imo

You said that Mr. Romans had his back to the shooter. So the shooter had Hollywood bullets?

[Hawk]

Mr. Brewer will have the Search Warrant and Confession Tape throw out of court. The three shrinks evaluations will be consistent, for no other reason than they have to be.
The boy will walk.

But the rest of us will want to know what really happened!

[GentleBreeze]

You said that Mr. Romans had his back to the shooter. So the shooter had Hollywood bullets?

No I did not say that ROMANS had his back to the shooter.


Originally Posted by GentleBreeze
That seems not to be the case. Three of the four shots were done when Mr. Romero had his back to the shooter. Only one was where the shooter was in front of him. He may have tried to flee up the stairs to get away from the shooter when first fired upon but imo he was incapacitated with the back shot or the shot that went into his left jaw and he fell laying body down on the second section of the stairs. The fourth and close up shot was done when Romero was already down and helpless imo.

With Mr. Romans imo the first shot was probably from 24 feet away and was to his forearm. He may have felt a slight sting and didn't realize he had been shot. We have no idea how close he was to the shooter when he received the chest shots. He could have been close enough to the porch to stagger forward a few feet then be shot again, falling on the porch, all the while being fired upon. I think he also was rendered helpless very quickly.

I agree with Linda, getting off 10 shots with a single shot bolt action rifle is very doable. I don't even think it took him 6 minutes to accomplish the deed, when the two victims were unaware that grave danger lurked, until it was too late to try and flee to save their lives. A human being is a much larger and easier target than killing a small prairie dog from yards away.

imoo
Also even policeman are killed by gunmen using a .22.


http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/guic.txt

Percent of law
enforcement
officers killed
Type of firearm with a firearm

.38 caliber handgun 25.2%
.357 Magnum handgun 12.1
9 millimeter handgun 9.5
12 gauge shotgun 7.4
.22 caliber handgun 5.4
.22 caliber rifle 4.4

[Hawk]

I know exactly where Romans was shot but I have no clue why you are repeating yourself about that. I have never said Romans was shot in the back, in the first place.

Well on here you just have an opinion like any other poster. I do not agree with your concept no matter how you try to embellish your experience.

You certainly aren't the only one here who has vast experience in firearms.

imo

Everything is relevant. It is apparent from your posts that you know less about firearms than you do about Justice!

[Hawk]

No I did not say that ROMANS had his back to the shooter.


Originally Posted by GentleBreeze
That seems not to be the case. Three of the four shots were done when Mr. Romero had his back to the shooter. Only one was where the shooter was in front of him. He may have tried to flee up the stairs to get away from the shooter when first fired upon but imo he was incapacitated with the back shot or the shot that went into his left jaw and he fell laying body down on the second section of the stairs. The fourth and close up shot was done when Romero was already down and helpless imo.

With Mr. Romans imo the first shot was probably from 24 feet away and was to his forearm. He may have felt a slight sting and didn't realize he had been shot. We have no idea how close he was to the shooter when he received the chest shots. He could have been close enough to the porch to stagger forward a few feet then be shot again, falling on the porch, all the while being fired upon. I think he also was rendered helpless very quickly.

I agree with Linda, getting off 10 shots with a single shot bolt action rifle is very doable. I don't even think it took him 6 minutes to accomplish the deed, when the two victims were unaware that grave danger lurked, until it was too late to try and flee to save their lives. A human being is a much larger and easier target than killing a small prairie dog from yards away.

imoo
Also even policeman are killed by gunmen using a .22.


http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/guic.txt

Percent of law
enforcement
officers killed
Type of firearm with a firearm

.38 caliber handgun 25.2%
.357 Magnum handgun 12.1
9 millimeter handgun 9.5
12 gauge shotgun 7.4
.22 caliber handgun 5.4
.22 caliber rifle 4.4

A slight sting? Are you nuts? These little bullets are like a jack hammer crushing you. These web sites you depend on know about as much about real gunshots as you do.

[GentleBreeze]

A slight sting? Are you nuts? These little bullets are like a jack hammer crushing you. These web sites you depend on know about as much about real gunshots as you do.

No, are you? Even Reagan didn't realize he had been shot at first and the bullet had lodged in his lung.

I suppose you are not a veteran either and know that many soldiers or Marines did not know they had been hit several times and kept on advancing forward.:rolleyes:

[Crispy]

Thanks for all the links!!! It is greatly appreciated!:thumbsup:

[Hawk]

No, are you? Even Reagan didn't realize he had been shot at first and the bullet had lodged in his lung.

I suppose you are not a veteran either and know that many soldiers or Marines did not know they had been hit several times and kept on advancing forward.:rolleyes:

You make my point very well. Reagan knew he was hit quickly and he nearly died. It depends entirely were you are hit and how fast the medical treatment you receive. If the bullet hits a non-vital part of the body it can be patched. Should you be unlucky enough to take a vital organ wound it could be fatal.
Adrenaline flow accounts for many survivors in battle. They cow-boy-up and make it. The flesh wounds encountered can not be compared to the death wounds suffered by their 'Brothers in Arms'.
I was in Viet Nam in 1970.

[Justice_Dawg]

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/womack.pdf

Page 8...This Dana guy thought the gun was Vince's wife's gun!!!

Dana replied, "Yes." I asked, when. Dana said he has handled Vincent's wife's rifle, a little pea shooter, .22 rifle at Vincent's place.
From that link:

"Not that it means anything, but, the only thing Vincent ever mentioned was that Tim wasn't paying the rent." I asked how long ago that was mentioned. Joe replied about three weeks ago.

------------But he had 5- 100.00 bills in his pocket?:confused:

[Hawk]

From that link:

"Not that it means anything, but, the only thing Vincent ever mentioned was that Tim wasn't paying the rent." I asked how long ago that was mentioned. Joe replied about three weeks ago.

------------But he had 5- 100.00 bills in his pocket?:confused:





Don't think past due rent would be a motive. But who knows?

[Justice_Dawg]

Don't think past due rent would be a motive. But who knows?

Maybe Tiffany snapped.

[Hawk]

Mr. Brewer is doing a fine job. The boy is going to walk.

[Hawk]

Why were the five 100 dollar bills photographed on Mr. Romans pants?
His dead body was still in them!

[Justice_Dawg]

Mr. Brewer is doing a fine job. The boy is going to walk.

What did I miss? Why do you say that?
I had to go to Pa today. Feel like I missed a LOT! :biggrin:

[Justice_Dawg]

You said that Mr. Romans had his back to the shooter. So the shooter had Hollywood bullets?
Good one!
:lol::thumbsup::lol:

[Hawk]

What did I miss? Why do you say that?
I had to go to Pa today. Feel like I missed a LOT! :biggrin:

You didn't miss anything. Just opinion. Some of the bloggers don't understand that the boy is going be to set free. Rightfully so!

[ChildsVOICE]

List of suspects UPDATE:

Tanya Romans-cheated on wife whose husband proposed marriage to another woman the night before he was killed-chief ear-witness

Romans family members-perhaps upset with Tim

Reservation members-rival tribal problems

CoWorkers-problems at work-fighting with co workers-particulary Mr. Curley

Mexican nationals-documentation of barrom brawls with TR and VR

Candi-proposed to (?) by a married man the night before he was murdered-shows no remorse for affair by placing info on her public myspeace

Family/Friends of Candi-worked in a bar-perhaps someone angry at TR for the affair

Tiffany-new situation living her first 2 months of marriage with a boarder-no one picked up after themselves, etc....

Tiffany's Sister-known drug addict who does meth with her baby in the room-did she have access to the home? A key? Could she have been there stealing and got caught?

Grandpa-strangly didn't want the boy to talk to police but then once he "confessed" he stays out of it-boy said he saw a car looking like Grandpas-grandpa was often there when parents weren't home

Drug people-TR has 5 hundreds on his person-perhaps collection on a drug deal (?) The drug test was negative however. He was convicted of drug charges.

Unknown intruder-wrong place, wrong time?

Underlying issues surrounding the case:

Bullet hole in truck not connected to this incident
Affiars
Newly married couple living with a boarder
Strange relationship with child's natural mother-perhaps some parental alientation going on
Grandma saying kids too hard on her
Barroom brawls
Drugs
GUNS and AMMO around an 8 year old in an UNSUPERVISED, messy house
Native American tribes

Anyone feel free to add anything I may have missed?


BTW-I hate to admit this, but I would have to add Eryn and her family members to the list as well-there was motive there as well, so that does need to be checked out. I did not list the boy, because he is obviously a suspect already.

Is there any reason why all of these leads should not be checked out simply because the 8 year old boy was led into a confession???

IMO

I've got a suspect for you. How about the top "guys" running the local illegal Meth & other illegal drug trades. Would they have any reason to feel Tim was trying to set up business in their territory? or Would they believe Tim and Vincent were becoming partners to do so?
Also, I'm not ruling out the possibility Tim left the San Carlos area because he needed to flee a situation.

Also, not wanting to tick off any of St. Johns' fine "law enforcers" nor any fine Apache County authorities but check out these news reports of our local "finest". Add the fact that certain somebodies have been/are being sued at previous employments from fellow officer(s) then you do the math. See if you think a few more suspects need to be added to your list.

Henry County Sheriff's Department (20 defendants/ a racketeering conspiracy that included the distribution of illegal drugs, theft of drugs and firearms, money laundering and obstruction of justice)

http://www.northcountrygazette.org/articles/110306SheriffCharged.html

The Henry Co. Sheriff's Department was investigating the case of two adults shot at home where .22 caliber shell casings were found by the bodies and a 9 year old little girl went missing then her body was later found.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-13795187.html

and

"CRIME CAREFULLY ORCHESTRATED HENRY COUNTY SHERIFF SAID KILLERS EITHER PLANNED CAREFULLY OR KNEW FAMILY WELL" :

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-12628690.html

To my knowledge, the Short case was never solved.

[Hawk]

Huh? Who said he was?

Quote
Three of the four shots were done when Mr. Romero had his back to the shooter.

And yes, even if you take 25 to 50 yards for a .22 rifle target versus 24 feet and closer, it becomes more lethal than if fired from 75 to 150 feet away.

.22 bullets can travel up to a mile if they are shot in a straight line.

imoo

Wow! How the hell do you shoot someone in the chest when you have you're back turned toward them?????????? Magic bullets I reckon!!

[Justice_Dawg]

You didn't miss anything. Just opinion. Some of the bloggers don't understand that the boy is going be to set free. Rightfully so!

Due to the no miranda confession and Illegal search warrant?

[Hawk]

Due to the no miranda confession and Illegal search warrant?

Yes, indeed.
This discussion board is fun. But the truth is the boy will be let go.
We all want to know what really happened, and I sure hope we will.

[Hawk]

Due to the no miranda confession and Illegal search warrant?

Yes. Can there be any other conclusion?

[Justice_Dawg]

Yes. Can there be any other conclusion?
No, not at all. I'd still like to know what happened.
From all of those links that were posted, nothing points to the boy.

[Hawk]

No, not at all. I'd still like to know what happened.
From all of those links that were posted, nothing points to the boy.

Yes!!!
Nothing points to the boy.

[Justice_Dawg]

Yes!!!
Nothing points to the boy.

Amos have an alibi?

[Crispy]

This case gets more convoluted by the minute IMO:confused:

[Justice_Dawg]

Look what I found in the List of casing found:

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/searchwarrantpropertysupp%20BO.pdf


ITEM # .5 LOCATION FOUND -FRONT FLOOR MAT

hmmmmmmm

[IAMME]

Amos have an alibi?

Or edgar? Or back to my favorite suspect with access to a WHITE car!!!!! Tanya???? or their daughters who "knew" about the affair and one of them was unhappy........what about the cousin that shot his truck? and are they SURE that the other truck that kilmer saw was the davis vehicle, I was pretty sure I read somewhere they (Mr Davis et all) WALKED back to the residence.

OH and BTW FYI, you can get more reports (i got at least one by using the link then typing in a number after the officers name IE www. blah blah/blah/blah/morales2 not much there but still looking.......

[ChildsVOICE]

Look what I found in the List of casing found:

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/searchwarrantpropertysupp%20BO.pdf


ITEM # .5 LOCATION FOUND -FRONT FLOOR MAT

hmmmmmmm

Yeah. I noticed that too. I was wondering if they meant the one lodged between the front door jam in front of the floor mat or if they are meaning inside the truck? Been awhile since I leafed through those docs. Going by memory.

[Justice_Dawg]

Or edgar? Or back to my favorite suspect with access to a WHITE car!!!!! Tanya???? or their daughters who "knew" about the affair and one of them was unhappy........what about the cousin that shot his truck? and are they SURE that the other truck that kilmer saw was the davis vehicle, I was pretty sure I read somewhere they (Mr Davis et all) WALKED back to the residence.

OH and BTW FYI, you can get more reports (i got at least one by using the link then typing in a number after the officers name IE www. blah blah/blah/blah/morales2 not much there but still looking.......

Amos had a small white truck. Who has a small white car?? Who is edgar? Who is kilmer? Is all of that in these reports? D@mn, I leave for one day and lose myself. :scared:

[Justice_Dawg]

Yeah. I noticed that too. I was wondering if they meant the one lodged between the front door jam in front of the floor mat or if they are meaning inside the truck? Been awhile since I leafed through those docs. Going by memory.

Sounded like the truck floor mat to me.

[Crispy]

Amos had a small white truck. Who has a small white car?? Who is edgar? Who is kilmer? Is all of that in these reports? D@mn, I leave for one day and lose myself. :scared:

TR's mother has a small white car. Kilmer is a guy who said he dropped an employee off across the street and seen three guys and two trucks(one being TR's) outside the house. They took him to the seen and told Rodriguez and he said the other truck was the man who called 911. Edgar has slipped my mind.

[IAMME]

Amos had a small white truck. Who has a small white car?? Who is edgar? Who is kilmer? Is all of that in these reports? D@mn, I leave for one day and lose myself. :scared:

Tims mother has white 07 aveo, kilmer was a witness is in the reports.

Try putting in the "missing" officers names, like melnick and rodriguez ect, having a little luck coming up with more here.......just change out the name b4 .pdf in the addresses.........and try them with numbers after them......2 3 ect. i found a morales2 and melnick and rodriguez....

[ChildsVOICE]

Or edgar? Or back to my favorite suspect with access to a WHITE car!!!!! Tanya???? or their daughters who "knew" about the affair and one of them was unhappy........what about the cousin that shot his truck? and are they SURE that the other truck that kilmer saw was the davis vehicle, I was pretty sure I read somewhere they (Mr Davis et all) WALKED back to the residence.

OH and BTW FYI, you can get more reports (i got at least one by using the link then typing in a number after the officers name IE www. blah blah/blah/blah/morales2 not much there but still looking.......

Earlier I read a posted comment that Tanya stated "Tim was their only bread winner". I find that a curious statement with Tanya, supposedly, expecting a divorce and the two girls, supposedly, knowing about the affair with "Candy". (See the various police reports/police interviews under the links I posted earlier.)
On another comment page someone claiming to be Tanya's sister defended Tim saying "his wife & kids were his life" and "he always came home to my sister and the girls" and more. Wish, now, I saved the links but didn't. Sorry.

[Justice_Dawg]

TR's mother has a small white car. Kilmer is a guy who said he dropped an employee off across the street and seen three guys and two trucks(one being TR's) outside the house. They took him to the seen and told Rodriguez and he said the other truck was the man who called 911. Edgar has slipped my mind.

None of these reports match what was testified to at the detention hearing.

odd.

[Justice_Dawg]

Earlier I read a posted comment that Tanya stated "Tim was their only bread winner". I find that a curious statement with Tanya, supposedly, expecting a divorce and the two girls, supposedly, knowing about the affair with "Candy". (See the various police reports/police interviews under the links I posted earlier.)
On another comment page someone claiming to be Tanya's sister defended Tim saying "his wife & kids were his life" and "he always came home to my sister and the girls" and more. Wish, now, I saved the links but didn't. Sorry.

As they called Tanya "AT WORK" from Tim's mothers house (Only bread winner MY A$$!)

Brewer and Wood have their work cut out for them. Unless...Forensics/ballistics clear the boy.
The killer/s will be caught.

That is what I think will happen. :thumbsup:

MOO

[ChildsVOICE]

Sounded like the truck floor mat to me.

Lets hope so. If so, maybe that would work against the PA's theory of the boy luring Tim inside. Also, from what I've gathered no one ever distinguished if Tim was inside the truck or outside the truck during the first initial shots while Tim was supposedly, on the cell phone with Tanya. If he was inside the truck during the initial shots that would work against the validity of Tanya's statements she heard the boy calling from inside the house. I know there was a trail of blood from the truck to his body and I've not read anything about any blood being detected or reported inside the truck but, heck, look who we're dealing with here "investigating" the facts. LOL I can hardly say that without laughing or upchucking!

[Justice_Dawg]

Lets hope so. If so, maybe that would work against the PA's theory of the boy luring Tim inside. Also, from what I've gathered no one ever distinguished if Tim was inside the truck or outside the truck during the first initial shots while Tim was supposedly, on the cell phone with Tanya. If he was inside the truck during the initial shots that would work against the validity of Tanya's statements she heard the boy calling from inside the house. I know there was a trail of blood from the truck to his body and I've not read anything about any blood being detected or reported inside the truck but, heck, look who we're dealing with here "investigating" the facts. LOL I can hardly say that without laughing or upchucking!

Mayberry USA. LOL

[IAMME]

Edgar was Misty The Other Bar Maid's boyfriend, the Misty that Tim was bragging about sleeping with that had the "crazy boyfriend" They were all at the bar together the night before the shootings, Misty, edgar, Tim, and Candi........

Childs Voice- do you have a link to the cell phoen records????? It isnt on that list, and I have tried every single alternative with the link I can think of.......

[ChildsVOICE]

I'm very interested in "Amos" from the police reports I've posted earlier. Witnesses stated 1) he was never right since his son had been found murdered/ burnt in a car last year; 2) Amos has a small white vehicle 3) Amos & Tim had conflict(s) 4) Tim took over Amos' position at work after Amos quit but had been going around town saying he had been fired 5) Amos is an ex-Army Ranger & Vietnam Vet 6) several people pointed the finger to Amos as a possible suspect.

I'm really curious at the connection to the Amos' son's violent murder w/in a year, Amos' hostile feelings towards Tim, Tim's reputation with illegal drugs, Tim's new supervisor position at the plant stepping into Amos' old position, the Romero's connections to numerous family & friends with illegal drug problems, Tim's having five $100 dollar bills on his person on a Wednesday (payday? other?), Tim having a previous bullet hole in his truck from a (reportedly) previous incident with his cousin (reportedly) drug related, Tim's need to carry a hand gun inside his vehicle console (and where was the second hand gun that a witness described should have been inside the truck) and I've read reports that Apache County is the 2nd largest Meth capitol in AZ? These are things I'm researching, now.

I find it curious Amos has the means (ex-Army Ranger, Vietnam Vet), a vehicle matching the description of the fleeing car, and the motive (hostilities between the men plus Tim taking his position at work and who knows if there's any connection to his own son's murder?!).

[IAMME]

I had forgotten about the second gun, that jumped at me too!!

officer report on the autopsy (I havent finished reading yet):

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/Guinn.pdf

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/Hogle.pdf

[ChildsVOICE]

Edgar was Misty The Other Bar Maid's boyfriend, the Misty that Tim was bragging about sleeping with that had the "crazy boyfriend" They were all at the bar together the night before the shootings, Misty, edgar, Tim, and Candi........

Childs Voice- do you have a link to the cell phoen records????? It isnt on that list, and I have tried every single alternative with the link I can think of.......

No. Sorry. I'm waiting for those too! BUT!....

LOOK AT THE REPORTED DATE AND TIME FOR THE POLICE REPORTS FOR THE CALL ON NOV. 5TH! The reports state "17:03" ! I take that to mean the first 9-1-1 call was received at 5:03 . Match that to when Sgt R states they arrived. The station is only 7 blocks from the Romero house and the responding officer lives across the street. You know they would have been hustling to get over there!

Also, in the interrogation video the police tell the boy they ALREADY HAVE THE CELL PHONE REPORTS! When I heard that I questioned how they could get them so fast since the crime happened at approximately 5:00 p.m. the night before, on Nov 5th and it was only 10:30 a.m. on Nov 6th when they were conducting the interview. I knew they were lying to the boy because there was no way they received the information from the cell companies plus had time to go over the results. Was the cell phone companies able to be reached for to gain that info after 5:00 p.m.?!

But, when the defense asks Commander TA if she lied she states only once with regard to having a witness seeing the boy shoot the men. :cursing:

[ChildsVOICE]

Does anybody know how many shell casings they took into evidence? compared to the number of times the men were shot?

lets see...
2 on the second floor/ hallway (above Vincent)
3 on the stairs below Vincent's body but above the landing
1 in the front doorway jam (as pics dipict)
? outside around Tim & the "porch"

Did the numbers match up?

[IAMME]

In the 2nd link I posted above, Tanya states in her witness report that the call between her and Tim occurred at 4:52. So now we are down to this kid had to shoot two grown men 10 times, reloading each time, then run around the corner to the Davis' res. then wait for the teen there to call Mr Davis, then wait for Mr Davis to get home, the go back to the scene, then Mr D calls 911 @ 1703............All in 11 minutes, 2.5 of which Tanya was supposedly on the phone.....

[ChildsVOICE]

Good Night All!

Don't forget to send Eryn & the boy some positive comments and check out the updates on

http://www.myspace.com/childsHOPEandVOICE

[ChildsVOICE]

In the 2nd link I posted above, Tanya states in her witness report that the call between her and Tim occurred at 4:52. So now we are down to this kid had to shoot two grown men 10 times, reloading each time, then run around the corner to the Davis' res. then wait for the teen there to call Mr Davis, then wait for Mr Davis to get home, the go back to the scene, then Mr D calls 911 @ 1703............All in 11 minutes, 2.5 of which Tanya was supposedly on the phone.....

I take it the "17:03" call was the first call of the neighbors reporting the gunshots they heard. Then the boy coming across the crime (witnessing or just after), running for help, all that followed, then 2nd 9-1-1 call. BUT, the calls were so close together the police have stated "there were two calls that came in at the same time". ????????

Can't wait to hear the details from the cell phone records! And to think I used to hate those things!:rolleyes:

[IAMME]

Does anybody know how many shell casings they took into evidence? compared to the number of times the men were shot?

lets see...
2 on the second floor/ hallway (above Vincent)
3 on the stairs below Vincent's body but above the landing
1 in the front doorway jam (as pics dipict)
? outside around Tim & the "porch"

Did the numbers match up?

I counted 5 around each body...

[IAMME]

QUOTE=ChildsVOICE;12583157]I take it the "17:03" call was the first call of the neighbors reporting the gunshots they heard. Then the boy coming across the crime (witnessing or just after), running for help, all that followed, then 2nd 9-1-1 call. BUT, the calls were so close together the police have stated "there were two calls that came in at the same time". ????????

Can't wait to hear the details from the cell phone records! And to think I used to hate those things!:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]


I didnt read in any of the police reports that there was more than one 911 call. Does anyone know where that information came from? All the reports say that Mr D was the caller............

And does anyone else think it is strange that Tim is telling his wife that he is "pissed" bc he has to work that weekend, but the one witness says that he talked to the men that day about working on Friday, he didnt say anything about the weekend, which leads me to believe Tim was lying so that he could spend the weekend with Candi minutes before his death. (if that call actually occurred at all) I would LOVE to see those cell records including which towers they were using.

[Details]

...Also, in the interrogation video the police tell the boy they ALREADY HAVE THE CELL PHONE REPORTS! When I heard that I questioned how they could get them so fast since the crime happened at approximately 5:00 p.m. the night before, on Nov 5th and it was only 10:30 a.m. on Nov 6th when they were conducting the interview. I knew they were lying to the boy because there was no way they received the information from the cell companies plus had time to go over the results. Was the cell phone companies able to be reached for to gain that info after 5:00 p.m.?!

But, when the defense asks Commander TA if she lied she states only once with regard to having a witness seeing the boy shoot the men. :cursing:Don't forget the other good one - I spotted it as a lie once I read it - the officers claimed they knew what weapon was used. I knew that one right off - nowhere outside of the most farfetched fiction on TV does a ballistics lab turn out a report that fast.

[Details]

I take it the "17:03" call was the first call of the neighbors reporting the gunshots they heard. Then the boy coming across the crime (witnessing or just after), running for help, all that followed, then 2nd 9-1-1 call. BUT, the calls were so close together the police have stated "there were two calls that came in at the same time". ????????

Can't wait to hear the details from the cell phone records! And to think I used to hate those things!:rolleyes:Can't wait for the cell phone tower record. Where was each cell phone at whatever time the call happened - and did hers reach Tim, or voicemail? How long was the call?

[GentleBreeze]

Wow! How the hell do you shoot someone in the chest when you have you're back turned toward them?????????? Magic bullets I reckon!!

Wow! Maybe the magic is that someone can actually read "Romero" and get "Romans" out of it every time they read it. :smile:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GentleBreeze
Huh? Who said he was?

Quote
Three of the four shots were done when Mr. Romero had his back to the shooter.


imoo

[Justice_Dawg]

Edgar was Misty The Other Bar Maid's boyfriend, the Misty that Tim was bragging about sleeping with that had the "crazy boyfriend" They were all at the bar together the night before the shootings, Misty, edgar, Tim, and Candi........

Childs Voice- do you have a link to the cell phoen records????? It isnt on that list, and I have tried every single alternative with the link I can think of.......

Well that wasn't a good mixture. :unsure: A disaster waiting to happen.

[suzanne]

In my opinion, that family of his is completely worthless. Grandma threw him under the bus, Grandpa and stepmom turned on him and none of them have even visited him in jail. They do not care about this boy.

The only family member who seems to care is his mother, who the rest of them have spent years alienating.

IMO

I agree.That's sad.I am glad she is there for him.

[suzanne]

Thank God St. Johns PD has gotten Al Capone! They have public enemy #1 secured. They must be careful. After all, the defendant is 4' tall and weights 50 lbs. I haven't seem him, but he must be mighty fierce! A professional hit man to hear them tell it.

LOL.Judge Roca took the chains off of him.

[LindaNJ1216]

I find it amazing that so many people on their computers THINK they are far better investigators than professionals and family that are actually privy to all the information and know the boy.

:lol::lol:

[ChildsVOICE]

Mayberry USA. LOL

I have a friend who says these "guys" make Barney Fife look like Sherlock Holmes! LOL:blink::crying:

[ChildsVOICE]

I find it amazing that so many people on their computers THINK they are far better investigators than professionals and family that are actually privy to all the information and know the boy.

:lol::lol:

Are you saying that this 8 year old boy was a Sociopath with previous violent tendencies toward animals and other children and adults, as would be the case before leaping straight into a double homicide of a loved father of whom was the child's sole provider and protector?

And that there were warning signs due to previous altercations or sociopathic tendencies toward destructiveness and violence, both at home among family and among neighbors & friends and at school among a variety of professionals trained to watch for such signs?

Then, if so, the boy's father, (an "avid hunter") having had physical custody and a relationship with the boy such that he recently got the boy a boxer puppy and searched advise from the family's priest on whether the boy was old enough to be given a single shot .22 caliber rifle, just, blatantly, ignored sociopathic or violent tendencies of the boy's to ponder "Is this child OLD enough to teach to shoot a gun/use a weapon and learn to hunt to kill'?

AND the child became a expert marksmen using a rifle that his father recently gave him and, of which, he only had an opportunity to use a few times WITH his father's assistance prior to this incident

AND the child had the mental and physical geniousness to "meticulously plan and carry out" shooting two adult men, moving targets, inside and outside, upstairs and downstairs, while having the physical dexterity not to have bruising or pinching on his fingers from pulling the trigger of a single shot .22 caliber rifle at least 10 times all the while not having any clear and obvious signs of evidence on his clothing or shoes consistent with the crime

AND not leaving any physical evidence that he was the perpetrator

AND not spilling any unspent shells either upstairs, down the stairs, or outside from what looks to be a compartmentalized box of shells when his father could not even do the same, according to his own wife's statements and having needed to step over a full grown adult man sprawled out over a staircase while carrying said rifle and box of shells

AND run for help

ALL within a time limit that would make an EXPERT pressed for time?

WOW! This kid doesn't need to be in "JUVI". They need to ship this little fellow off to Iraq! With this little fellows skill and mental abilities, we'll get the war over real quick!

Oh! And by "professionals" do you mean the ones who, blatantly, ignore the Constitution of these United States, the Arizona laws, the protocol of their own police department, AND after two days of interviews can't even tell the defense WHO made the 9-1-1 calls, can't remember simple details, don't bring their notes nor bother with referring to notes during a detention hearing in which the life of a traumatized 8 year old child is on the line, left key items of evidence laying on the ground in the weather for at least two days or more, immediately stopped vital police interviewing due to a coerced false confession in which the interrogating police officers lied to an 8 year old child as they held him alone, with no Attorney, no parent, no legal advocate, no Miranda rights, and used tactics "to scare" an already traumatized child into "giving up the true perpetrator"? The same "professionals" who state they were only interviewing the child as a witness who they believed knew and saw the real killers but STILL claimed they did not view him as a "victim"? :thumbdown:

Wow!

You must have this kid on video tape committing the crime? Be sure to send it to the department of Homeland Security. They could use some expert training video!

[lurkinghere2]

I find it amazing that so many people on their computers THINK they are far better investigators than professionals and family that are actually privy to all the information and know the boy.

:lol::lol:

And I find it amazing that some posters have made their mind up as to the guilt of this child when there is not yet any physical proof or evidence that he is actually guilty. No ballistics. No forensics. A non mirandized coerced confession & circumstantial commentary. Nothing is yet written in stone.

IF the forensics, etc., come back showing the guilt of this child, then kudos to those who still have had a level of faith that children should not be capable of doing something like this - emotionally or physically - and I hope he gets the help he needs - 'cause the motivation that would cause this whole horrible situation needs to be understood and treated. At 8 years old, no matter the crime, I do not believe children should be thrown away.

But, IF the forensics, etc., come back proving his innocence, then double kudos for all the folks doing research and investigation into the other possible suspects, so that the investigation may redirect itself immediately with all these varying possible leads.

Nothing, nothing, nothing is written in stone about this case proving anything at this point. Until there is solid proof one way or the other, then anyone who gives a rat's a$$ should sleuth and provide possible leads to prove the guilt or innocence of all possible suspects. Two men are dead and a child's life is on the line.

[ChildsVOICE]

Unrelated to this case....

Has anyone ever heard of a case in which someone has taken someone's handwriting and using a computer program copied the hand writing to create threatening letters? or of a person using copies of their own letters to manufacture a threatening letter so as not to be held accountable in court?

I know of a victim of this and have learned how it is possible but am looking for other documented cases or new reports.

[Justice_Dawg]

LOL.Judge Roca took the chains off of him.

Well if not shackled and chained, he would have over taken them with his brain. Kind of like "Firestarter"

:lol:

[suzanne]

And I find it amazing that some posters have made their mind up as to the guilt of this child when there is not yet any physical proof or evidence that he is actually guilty. No ballistics. No forensics. A non mirandized coerced confession & circumstantial commentary. Nothing is yet written in stone.

IF the forensics, etc., come back showing the guilt of this child, then kudos to those who still have had a level of faith that children should not be capable of doing something like this - emotionally or physically - and I hope he gets the help he needs - 'cause the motivation that would cause this whole horrible situation needs to be understood and treated. At 8 years old, no matter the crime, I do not believe children should be thrown away.

But, IF the forensics, etc., come back proving his innocence, then double kudos for all the folks doing research and investigation into the other possible suspects, so that the investigation may redirect itself immediately with all these varying possible leads.

Nothing, nothing, nothing is written in stone about this case proving anything at this point. Until there is solid proof one way or the other, then anyone who gives a rat's a$$ should sleuth and provide possible leads to prove the guilt or innocence of all possible suspects. Two men are dead and a child's life is on the line.

Very well said.I agree.

[ChildsVOICE]

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/MOTION%20TO%20SUPRESS%20STATEMENTS%20AND%20REQUEST %20FOR%20VOLUNTARINESS%20HEARING.pdf

[ChildsVOICE]

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/MOTION%20TO%20SUPPRESS%20RE%20ILLEGAL%20WARRANT.pd f

[bookie]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Neckels testify that the reason they decided to question the boy a 2nd time was because of the conversation Tanya had with Hogle at the funeral home? If so this statement by Hogle contradicts that claim.



Sgt.. Rodrigue%. provided Mrs. Romans with a statement form to fin out While be was speaking with Mrs.. Romans. she asked ifthere we~e any leads in the case. Sgt. Rodriguez told her he couldn't go into detait but an '8 year old boy had been arr~ted. Mrs. Romans and her mother in...law were in disbelief. Mrs. Romans said her busband had told her Vincent's family were a good family and didn't think something like this couldi happen. Itwhile after Mrs. RomanS completed the statement she andher family left the mortuary.

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/Hogle.pdf

Something happened when I tried to copy and paste but it's on page 2 of the link, next to the last paragraph.

[Crispy]

Yep that does sound strange. Also, they knew before she got to the mortuary that Tanya Romans had said the boy was there. She supposedly told them on the phone the night before when they notified her Tim was dead. Can't remember who's statement that was in. Might have been Jones.

ETA Sorry it was Rodriguez she told on the phone not Jones

[bookie]

Yep that does sound strange. Also, they knew before she got to the mortuary that Tanya Romans had said the boy was there. She supposedly told them on the phone the night before when they notified her Tim was dead. Can't remember who's statement that was in. Might have been Jones.

ETA Sorry it was Rodriguez she told on the phone not Jones


I haven't read all of the statements yet. That just jumped out at me.

[muska]

Or edgar? Or back to my favorite suspect with access to a WHITE car!!!!! Tanya???? or their daughters who "knew" about the affair and one of them was unhappy........what about the cousin that shot his truck? and are they SURE that the other truck that kilmer saw was the davis vehicle, I was pretty sure I read somewhere they (Mr Davis et all) WALKED back to the residence.

OH and BTW FYI, you can get more reports (i got at least one by using the link then typing in a number after the officers name IE www. blah blah/blah/blah/morales2 not much there but still looking.......

Mr. Davis did drive to the Romero's house in his truck. I remember thinking that the Davis home must have been at least a little bit of a walk or they would all have just run over when Mr. Davis got home. This means the boy needed a little time to get there in the first place; it doesn't sound like the Davis house was SO close by.....keeps the time frame very, very tight.

[Hawk]

Does anybody know how many shell casings they took into evidence? compared to the number of times the men were shot?

lets see...
2 on the second floor/ hallway (above Vincent)
3 on the stairs below Vincent's body but above the landing
1 in the front doorway jam (as pics dipict)
? outside around Tim & the "porch"

Did the numbers match up?

Looks like there were 5 empty shells found outside.
2 on the front porch
1 on the door mat
1 between the door and the door frame.
1 behind the door.

Inside there were 6.
1 on the 2nd step of the 1st flight of stairs (Marker E)
1 on the 3rd step of the 2nd flight of stairs. (Marker F)
1 on the 4th step of the second flight of stairs. (Marker U)
2 in the 2nd floor hallway. (next to marker V)

Mr. Romans was hit six times. Mr. Romero was hit four times.

The shooter would have had to have an empty casing in the rifle from the last shot at Mr. Romans when he/she went upstairs. Which empty shell inside the house it is could prove telling.
If it's on the 2nd floor it means the shooter wasn't in much of a hurry to shoot Mr. Romero a final time. This would have been the shooters second shooting incident of Mr. Romero.
The boy said at one point that he shot Tim then went inside and shot his dad.

I truly hope I'm wrong.

[Hawk]

I'm sorry. I meant to say there were 5 empty casings found inside, not 6.

[Justice_Dawg]

I'm sorry. I meant to say there were 5 empty casings found inside, not 6.

I thought the one in the door jam was a different size? :confused:

[Hawk]

I thought the one in the door jam was a different size? :confused:

I was hoping it was. But it seems to be a .22 like the rest.
It's item #6 on the search warrant property supplement.

[Justice_Dawg]

Sergeant Rodriguez and I approached the victim lying in front of the front door. I noticed what
appeared to be a bullet hole in the hood of the trUCk. As we neared the concrete parking area, I
noticed what appeared to be blood drops on the concrete, leading to the victim.
http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/jones%20BO.pdf


The why the red flags up the sidewalk? I see the Evidence markers on the CONCRETE driveway.
http://www.abc15.com/Photo.aspx?slideshow=a02b70a1-990e-43ba-8dd8-69e6acf5a4e0&photo=6012e6e4-fe4f-4cad-9570-5dd399d4f9e4

WTH???

[Justice_Dawg]

Anyone asking themselves why the boy hid hanes underware and it was taken as evidence? Opps Fruit of the Loom

[Justice_Dawg]

I was hoping it was. But it seems to be a .22 like the rest.
It's item #6 on the search warrant property supplement.

I just looked at it, it is wider, IMO

[Hawk]

Anyone asking themselves why the boy hid hanes underware and it was taken as evidence?

Now that's a great question!

Could it be used to test for sexual abuse? If so wouldn't it have been sent to the lab?

Beats me. Seems odd, but so does this whole case.

[Justice_Dawg]

So the mossburg case was found OPEN, but empty, except for the manual at the foot VR and TR's bed.

Odd, very very odd.

[Justice_Dawg]

Now that's a great question!

Could it be used to test for sexual abuse? If so wouldn't it have been sent to the lab?

Beats me. Seems odd, but so does this whole case.
TY!

Sexual abuse was my first thought. :cursing:

[Hawk]

I just looked at it, it is wider, IMO

Looks bigger to me too. When I first saw the picture I thought it might be a .45. I zoomed in but the image became too blurry to see. Guess it's a .22.
Sgt. Rodriguez was asked by Mr. Brewer in the first hearing about an empty casing that looked different from the others. Maybe it's just dirty.
I also thought that the hole in the door appeared very large for a .22 but the ruler is in cm and the measurements seem right for a .22.

[Justice_Dawg]

I helped Sgt. Rodriguez with searching the silver crew cab Dodge pickup truck belonging to Timothy Romans. Sgt. Rodriguez handed me Augustine Logan's driver's license and a debit card

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/morales.pdf

------------
Anyone know who that is?

------------

One listing in court record's. Traffic violation: Augustine Logan- Case Number: J-1106-TR-20052037

[Justice_Dawg]

I had forgotten about the second gun, that jumped at me too!!

officer report on the autopsy (I havent finished reading yet):

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/Guinn.pdf

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/Hogle.pdf

What second gun???? Is a gun missing?????

[Hawk]

I helped Sgt. Rodriguez with searching the silver crew cab Dodge pickup truck belonging to Timothy Romans. Sgt. Rodriguez handed me Augustine Logan's driver's license and a debit card

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/morales.pdf

------------
Anyone know who that is?

------------

One listing in court record's. Traffic violation: Augustine Logan- Case Number: J-1106-TR-20052037

One of Mr. Romans girlfriends maybe? Aren't these items kinda important? If she's married she may not be for long. Some of this stuff could be in soap opera digest.
On the other hand it may not be a girlfriends.

[Justice_Dawg]

One of Mr. Romans girlfriends maybe? Aren't these items kinda important? If she's married she may not be for long. Some of this stuff could be in soap opera digest.
On the other hand it may not be a girlfriends.

Could be identity theft.
Not to bash the victim....but...
I don't trust the kind of person TR was.

[Hawk]

What second gun???? Is a gun missing?????

In one of the statements someone (I think it was a co-worker) says that Mr. Romans owned a semi-auto pistol and a .44 magnum revolver.

[mina]

I helped Sgt. Rodriguez with searching the silver crew cab Dodge pickup truck belonging to Timothy Romans. Sgt. Rodriguez handed me Augustine Logan's driver's license and a debit card

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/morales.pdf

------------
Anyone know who that is?

------------

One listing in court record's. Traffic violation: Augustine Logan- Case Number: J-1106-TR-20052037

From an obituary:
http://www.nanews.org/archive/2005/nanews13.008
Survivors include two sons, Dennis Logan and Pernell Logan; four daughters, Pecita Logan Martin, Augustine Logan, Ava Talas, and Danita Logan...
A wake will begin at 3 p.m. Friday, Feb. 11, on White Mountain Street in San Carlos.
Seems to be a neighbor of the Romans in San Carlos??

I wonder why none of the police reports mention any investigation into this. Seems odd to me that a stranger's ID and debit card was found in a murdered man's vechicle.

[Justice_Dawg]

I hope they have the National Guard protecting the boy and Eryn. I really feel he is in danger.

Someone killed these men in cold blood, I am SURE it wasn't he boy and I am SURE the real perp/s won't go down for a double homicide without a fight.

MOO

[Justice_Dawg]

From an obituary:
http://www.nanews.org/archive/2005/nanews13.008
Survivors include two sons, Dennis Logan and Pernell Logan; four daughters, Pecita Logan Martin, Augustine Logan, Ava Talas, and Danita Logan...
A wake will begin at 3 p.m. Friday, Feb. 11, on White Mountain Street in San Carlos.
Seems to be a neighbor of the Romans in San Carlos??

I wonder why none of the police reports mention any investigation into this. Seems odd to me that a stranger's ID and debit card was found in a murdered man's vechicle.

VERY ODD
I suspect the Criminal Defense Investigator will get to the bottom of that. That would be one of the first things I would check on.

[Hawk]

I hope they have the National Guard protecting the boy and Eryn. I really feel he is in danger.

Someone killed these men in cold blood, I am SURE it wasn't he boy and I am SURE the real perp/s won't go down for a double homicide without a fight.

MOO

Seems to me at this point that the Tanya Romans witness statement is the most the county attorney has.
Is it possible she's lying, mistaken, or exaggerating? It's one thing if she heard someone yelling for Mr. Romans. Quite another if she heard Mr. Romans identify (like she says) the boy by name. If it weren't for this testimony what else do they have? The confession tape is most likely worthless in court.

[Justice_Dawg]

Seems to me at this point that the Tanya Romans witness statement is the most the county attorney has.
Is it possible she's lying, mistaken, or exaggerating? It's one thing if she heard someone yelling for Mr. Romans. Quite another if she heard Mr. Romans identify (like she says) the boy by name. If it weren't for this testimony what else do they have? The confession tape is most likely worthless in court.
Exactly.
IMO- We (most of us) agree they have no case against the boy.

The only conclusion I can come to is there is a murderer on the loose in Arizona thinking this 8 yr old is going to take the fall....

[Hawk]

Exactly.
IMO- We (most of us) agree they have no case against the boy.

The only conclusion I can come to is there is a murderer on the loose in Arizona thinking this 8 yr old is going to take the fall....

Looks like they threw up their hands once the boy "confessed". Cmd. Womack states that he was told to shut down interviews of the Zachry workers and report back to the crime scene by Sgt. Scruggs around noon on the 6th. Scruggs told Womack that Romero's son had confessed to killing his dad and Mr. Romans.

LE spent about 18 hours on the investigation! They got their "man" then laid down.
Who knows what some of the other employees might have told CMD Womack?

[Justice_Dawg]

Looks like they threw up their hands once the boy "confessed". Cmd. Womack states that he was told to shut down interviews of the Zachry workers and report back to the crime scene by Sgt. Scruggs around noon on the 6th. Scruggs told Womack that Romero's son had confessed to killing his dad and Mr. Romans.

LE spent about 18 hours on the investigation! They got their "man" then laid down.
Who knows what some of the other employees might have told CMD Womack?

Unreal. I need some rest. This case is driving me nuts! :cursing:

Night! :closedeyes:

[PensiveOne]

A little about the appeal the prosecutor has filed.

http://www.wmicentral.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20228896&BRD=2264&PAG=461&dept_id=505965&rfi=6

[suzanne]

TY!

Sexual abuse was my first thought. :cursing:

This bothers me.The little boy hid his underware?Do you know where he hid it?The police took it as evidence?

[Hawk]

This bothers me.The little boy hid his underware?Do you know where he hid it?The police took it as evidence?

Item #5: Gray Fruit of Loom underwear.
Location: Maroon case under headboard in _____ (the boys) room.

[lurkinghere2]

This bothers me.The little boy hid his underware?Do you know where he hid it?The police took it as evidence?

It was from search warrant 2 & found in his bedroom. It said something like "in maroon case under headboard in xxxx's room".


http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/searchwarrantpropertysupp%20BO.pdf

[JD1974]

This bothers me.The little boy hid his underware?Do you know where he hid it?The police took it as evidence?



One more bothersome thing that this case is quickly picking up. This whole case bothers me, usually I can say in a sentence or two why a case bothers me. With this one, there is just too many things to even attempt.

[suzanne]

Item #5: Gray Fruit of Loom underwear.
Location: Maroon case under headboard in _____ (the boys) room.


Ok,Thank you.

[suzanne]

It was from search warrant 2 & found in his bedroom. It said something like "in maroon case under headboard in xxxx's room".


http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/searchwarrantpropertysupp%20BO.pdf

Ok,Thank you too.They were his underware?

[suzanne]

It was from search warrant 2 & found in his bedroom. It said something like "in maroon case under headboard in xxxx's room".


http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/searchwarrantpropertysupp%20BO.pdf

In a case?Hmmm.I don't know.

[lurkinghere2]

Hawk beat me to that answer!

So, I have a curiosity question.....

Is Tiffany living back in the house?

and

Relative to the 2nd search warrant, that was executed on the 10th, I believe.... Who cleaned the house between the 5/6th and then? I mean, the pictures initially showed the house to be a pit. On the 2nd search warrant date, there is not much stuff they took out. Who cleaned? 'Cause if that room was still a pit, there should have been about 100 things on that list of items taken......... I mean, unless they were only looking for specific things. But it seems like they would have taken everything.

[lurkinghere2]

Ok,Thank you too.They were his underware?

Assume so. It said boys fruit of the loom......

[suzanne]

I read this some where and wanted to know if this is correct or any one has heard more on this the court appointed psychologist has already made his decision that the boy is not competent to stand trial.Does this mean he is not menatally stable?This makes me sad.What did they say?

[JD1974]

I read this some where and wanted to know if this is correct or any one has heard more on this the court appointed psychologist has already made his decision that the boy is not competent to stand trial.Does this mean he is not menatally stable?This makes me sad.What did they say?

Not competent in this case doesn't mean mental illness, it means he is not mentally old enough to understand or help with a defense in his case.

[wolfi_2]

Not competent in this case doesn't mean mental illness, it means he is not mentally old enough to understand or help with a defense in his case.


that shows again how stupid it is, to try children in court below a minimum age of about 12, 13 or 14 years.

[Hawk]

Hawk beat me to that answer!

So, I have a curiosity question.....

Is Tiffany living back in the house?

and

Relative to the 2nd search warrant, that was executed on the 10th, I believe.... Who cleaned the house between the 5/6th and then? I mean, the pictures initially showed the house to be a pit. On the 2nd search warrant date, there is not much stuff they took out. Who cleaned? 'Cause if that room was still a pit, there should have been about 100 things on that list of items taken......... I mean, unless they were only looking for specific things. But it seems like they would have taken everything.

Tiffany Ann Devall owns two properties in St. Johns.
One is in Coronado Estates. The other is in Sunset acres, which I believe is the crime scene house on West 7th North.
There are no records of Vincent Romero owning property in Apache county.

[suzanne]

Not competent in this case doesn't mean mental illness, it means he is not mentally old enough to understand or help with a defense in his case.

Ok,Thank you.That's why I thought this little boy would be let go.Because he would not be able to help with his defense.

[muska]

Seems to me at this point that the Tanya Romans witness statement is the most the county attorney has.
Is it possible she's lying, mistaken, or exaggerating? It's one thing if she heard someone yelling for Mr. Romans. Quite another if she heard Mr. Romans identify (like she says) the boy by name. If it weren't for this testimony what else do they have? The confession tape is most likely worthless in court.

Even if she claims TR said the boy was calling, that means very little. TR may have used the boy as an excuse to get off the phone, maybe someone else was calling, possibly a girlfriend. Also, even if Tanya wasn't at all involved in this, she seems to have a motive to insist she heard the boy, whether she has any doubts or not. If the boy wasn't the shooter, there goes the lawsuit.

[Hawk]

Even if she claims TR said the boy was calling, that means very little. TR may have used the boy as an excuse to get off the phone, maybe someone else was calling, possibly a girlfriend. Also, even if Tanya wasn't at all involved in this, she seems to have a motive to insist she heard the boy, whether she has any doubts or not. If the boy wasn't the shooter, there goes the lawsuit.

Good point.

[bkwits]

Hawk beat me to that answer!

So, I have a curiosity question.....

Is Tiffany living back in the house?

and

Relative to the 2nd search warrant, that was executed on the 10th, I believe.... Who cleaned the house between the 5/6th and then? I mean, the pictures initially showed the house to be a pit. On the 2nd search warrant date, there is not much stuff they took out. Who cleaned? 'Cause if that room was still a pit, there should have been about 100 things on that list of items taken......... I mean, unless they were only looking for specific things. But it seems like they would have taken everything.


I thought the same thing. But don't they have to specify exactly what they are looking for? They were looking for the journal, notebook or list of spankings, right?

[JD1974]

that shows again how stupid it is, to try children in court below a minimum age of about 12, 13 or 14 years.



Exactly. I want to do some research on adults with a mentality of an 8 year old who have committed a crime and what the punishment was? I think it is strange that if you ARE 8 years old you can be charged as an adult, yet if you are 34 and have the mentality of an 8 year old you aren't? I am not quite sure how to look that up though, so any help would be appreciated!

[Hawk]

Exactly. I want to do some research on adults with a mentality of an 8 year old who have committed a crime and what the punishment was? I think it is strange that if you ARE 8 years old you can be charged as an adult, yet if you are 34 and have the mentality of an 8 year old you aren't? I am not quite sure how to look that up though, so any help would be appreciated!

This isn't what you're looking for but it gives several examples of how interrogators trick a suspect. In the Romero/Romans case they used at least four of the ten examples on the child. (Even though the site is about adults).



http://www.justicedenied.org/false.htm

[LindaNJ1216]

TY!

Sexual abuse was my first thought. :cursing:

:w00t: Hang onto your seat....I am gonna agree with you on this one.

[Hawk]

:w00t: Hang onto your seat....I am gonna agree with you on this one.

Holy cow!! LindaNJ1216 has seen the light. Who's next?

[suzanne]

False confession and interrogation of Michael Crowe

http://www.cbsnews.com/elements/2004/10/15/48hours/videoarchive649635_0_1_page.shtml

[suzanne]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_confession

[LindaNJ1216]

Holy cow!! LindaNJ1216 has seen the light. Who's next?

Don't excite yourself....sexual abuse = MOTIVE

[IAMME]

I am taking case to mean suit case, Maybe I am completely wrong here, but my kids dont always do the best job unpacking between trips to their dads.......I am not sure if the underwear mean anything or not.....imo

[Hawk]

I am taking case to mean suit case, Maybe I am completely wrong here, but my kids dont always do the best job unpacking between trips to their dads.......I am not sure if the underwear mean anything or not.....imo


If it doesn't mean anything why did they take it? The item must be significant.

[Hawk]

Don't excite yourself....sexual abuse = MOTIVE

It also means justifiable self protection.

[bkwits]

I am taking case to mean suit case, Maybe I am completely wrong here, but my kids dont always do the best job unpacking between trips to their dads.......I am not sure if the underwear mean anything or not.....imo


I agree. It also might be that he had an accident and wanted to hide the underwear, but I suspect your reason is the correct one. IMO

[bkwits]

Don't excite yourself....sexual abuse = MOTIVE

:smile:

I'm just guessing but I don't think there was sexual abuse. Abuse maybe, but not sexual. IMO

[LindaNJ1216]

It also means justifiable self protection.

Are you conceding he MAY HAVE DONE IT???????????????????

[suzanne]

It also means justifiable self protection.

I agree.Also with physical abuse.

[suzanne]

If he shot and killed these two.I want to know what provoked this and led up to this.I believe there is much much more to this story.

[LindaNJ1216]

Honestly, after thinking about it more...I doubt the underwear mean anything. Face it they were pretty messy. He probably stuffed them in there when tidying up his room.....My son at that age would jam stuff in the oddest places cause he was in too much of a hurry to get done.

[Hawk]

Are you conceding he MAY HAVE DONE IT???????????????????


I don't know what to concede.
The extra casing inside the house, most likely one of the two found upstairs, indicates the shooter ejected the empty shell from his last shot at Mr. Romans, reloaded, then shot Mr.Romero after he'd already been shot three times. This is consistent with the boys 'confession'.

On the other hand it seems almost impossible to shoot Mr. Romans twice in the chest with both shots hitting a mere 3 to 4 inches apart with the slow operating chipmunk rifle. It just doesn't make sense.

The boys underwear is part of the evidence taken by the PD as shown on the search warrant. No other article of clothing is mentioned. They wouldn't have taken it without a valid reason. What else could it point to except suspicion of sexual abuse?
I don't know anything about that sort of thing.

I'm pulling for the boy regardless.

[suzanne]

I have not forgotten about this little boy.I have just been very interested in Caylee Marie Anthony's case also.It just really bothers me alot as this little boys case.I will not give up on this little boy and I will be for this little boy regardless also.

[Details]

Honestly, after thinking about it more...I doubt the underwear mean anything. Face it they were pretty messy. He probably stuffed them in there when tidying up his room.....My son at that age would jam stuff in the oddest places cause he was in too much of a hurry to get done.Yeah, more likely than not. The police need to take things found in odd places like that, just in case they're significant - but it probably is not. The house was messy, the kids room was messy - he obviously wasn't some neatnik. Few enough 8 year olds ever are.

If it is evidence of sexual abuse - it doesn't necessarily mean the kid did it - that would be added motive for the mother, step-mother, and grandparents.


It's not impossible the kid did kill them - highly improbable, with many unexplained holes in the stories, improbable occurrences - but it's not quite impossible. Of course, aliens with a death ray that looks just like a 22 isn't quite impossible either - so you can see, that's a high bar to meet.

[Crispy]

Awhile back someone was asking why there was flags in the yard. In one of the reports the officer said he cleared and marked a path to the house. I just wanted to throw that out there before I forgot.

January, there are a bunch of new links to some police reports but I don't think any new decisions have been made. There is a link up about the prosecutors filing their special motion to appeal the judges decision to stay the proceedings

[Hawk]

Hullo, everyone. Happy holidays to you all. I have been inundated with company over the holidays. So can anyone in a nutshell give me the update on this case? The last I heard, the little guy was spending time with his mother for the holidays. Anything new on the hearings or judicial decisions?



Back in detention tomorrow. (birthday).
Judge is silent.
Lawyers are quite.
Motions pending.
Posters still hard headed.

Tons of great new info compliments of childshope;

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=435515258&blogID=459150476

[muska]

Looks like there were 5 empty shells found outside.
2 on the front porch
1 on the door mat
1 between the door and the door frame.
1 behind the door.

Inside there were 6.
1 on the 2nd step of the 1st flight of stairs (Marker E)
1 on the 3rd step of the 2nd flight of stairs. (Marker F)
1 on the 4th step of the second flight of stairs. (Marker U)
2 in the 2nd floor hallway. (next to marker V)

Mr. Romans was hit six times. Mr. Romero was hit four times.

The shooter would have had to have an empty casing in the rifle from the last shot at Mr. Romans when he/she went upstairs. Which empty shell inside the house it is could prove telling.
If it's on the 2nd floor it means the shooter wasn't in much of a hurry to shoot Mr. Romero a final time. This would have been the shooters second shooting incident of Mr. Romero.
The boy said at one point that he shot Tim then went inside and shot his dad.

I truly hope I'm wrong.

Why would there be only 5 casings outside when Tim was shot 6 times while outside? Shouldn't there be still another casing from the extra shot into the screen door?

[Hawk]

Sgt. Quinn of the Sheriff's department was at the autopsy and surmises that the bullet that creased the back of Mr. Romans head is the same bullet that went through the security door. The bullet was not recovered.
The missing empty was found inside the house.

[steffaroob4]

Awhile back someone was asking why there was flags in the yard. In one of the reports the officer said he cleared and marked a path to the house. I just wanted to throw that out there before I forgot.

January, there are a bunch of new links to some police reports but I don't think any new decisions have been made. There is a link up about the prosecutors filing their special motion to appeal the judges decision to stay the proceedings


That was me!!! Those flags were driving me nutz. Thanks, I just finished reading all the new stuff you guys posted.


I find it odd the took the underwear, I would assume he being so young he could have just had an accident and hidden them. There are scary things about why they may have taken them, which I don't wish to think about.

I found the remarks about the bullet wound that was like a crease being linked to that screen door hole, I have a hard time seeing how that could happen, I would like to see an expert explain that to me.

I have grown more suspicous of LE, I am starting to think they may have suspected the boy before the interview.

The blood on the paper in the garbage can bothers me, does any recall if LE saw when that paper was sent home with students?

I still don't understand the interview, why didn't they ask the boy more about his grandfather, when he brought him up several times? Where were the nice questions, getting the boy to trust them, finding out who his friends were, who he trusted, about his mother, what did he eat for lunch that day, where were the control questions so they judge if he was telling the truth? That just makes NO sense to me at all, how do they know this boy wasn't in shock, I am just getting annoyed with that interview.

[wolfi_2]

Back in detention tomorrow. (birthday).
Judge is silent.
Lawyers are quite.
Motions pending.
Posters still hard headed.

Tons of great new info compliments of childshope;

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=435515258&blogID=459150476

dec. 29 -birthday
Back in detention isolated in a cell, speaking through a wall of glass, how bad must that be for the boy and how sad for his mom? And how useful is it? I think that doesn’t make it better for the boy and the therapy he needed and still don’t get.

[shelby77]

Sgt. Quinn of the Sheriff's department was at the autopsy and surmises that the bullet that creased the back of Mr. Romans head is the same bullet that went through the security door. The bullet was not recovered.
The missing empty was found inside the house.

Hawk, did you catch the part in Guinn's report about the bullet that struck VR in the back, near the center of the right shoulder blade, at a downard angle passing the organs in the chest and resting in the abdomen.
I'm thinking of the downard angle, all along I figured if the boy did it, the shots would be more of an upward angle since I pictured him below VR in the stairs, hence the wound in the back and not chest, but it being downard angle throws all that out the window for me. Not sure what to think now, need to ponder some new scenarios it seems. I'm just curious to have other's input into this now that we know of the angle......it doesn't seem to make sense to shoot him like that if he's already down, in the shoulder blade, I assumed the head shots took place once he was down...hhmmmm

[Hawk]

Hawk, did you catch the part in Guinn's report about the bullet that struck VR in the back, near the center of the right shoulder blade, at a downard angle passing the organs in the chest and resting in the abdomen.
I'm thinking of the downard angle, all along I figured if the boy did it, the shots would be more of an upward angle since I pictured him below VR in the stairs, hence the wound in the back and not chest, but it being downard angle throws all that out the window for me. Not sure what to think now, need to ponder some new scenarios it seems. I'm just curious to have other's input into this now that we know of the angle......it doesn't seem to make sense to shoot him like that if he's already down, in the shoulder blade, I assumed the head shots took place once he was down...hhmmmm

I think the little bullet struck bone causing it to ricochet, or angle, as SGT. Quinn says, downward, ripping through whatever organs were in it's path. It doesn't mean that the shot was made after he had fallen or that the shot was fired from above.

[shelby77]

yea, I didn't think the bullet hit him when he was down, but I DID take it to mean it came from above, not necessarily above him on the stairs, but just the bullet trajectory coming from a higher angle than an 8 y/o could generally manage. What you say about the ricochet off the bone makes sense too I suppose, but I didn't see where Guinn stated that in his report, just the downard angle part so that didn't occur to me. Still now knowing of the angles I guess I'm going to need to go back and review some of the evidence and see if it fits or not, for me anyway. Thanks for your input, that means the angle may not have as much meaning for me now though....

[Details]

Looks like there were 5 empty shells found outside.
2 on the front porch
1 on the door mat
1 between the door and the door frame.
1 behind the door.

Inside there were 6.
1 on the 2nd step of the 1st flight of stairs (Marker E)
1 on the 3rd step of the 2nd flight of stairs. (Marker F)
1 on the 4th step of the second flight of stairs. (Marker U)
2 in the 2nd floor hallway. (next to marker V)

Mr. Romans was hit six times. Mr. Romero was hit four times.

The shooter would have had to have an empty casing in the rifle from the last shot at Mr. Romans when he/she went upstairs. Which empty shell inside the house it is could prove telling.
If it's on the 2nd floor it means the shooter wasn't in much of a hurry to shoot Mr. Romero a final time. This would have been the shooters second shooting incident of Mr. Romero.
The boy said at one point that he shot Tim then went inside and shot his dad.

I truly hope I'm wrong.OK, so if I'm thinking of this right - isn't this proving that the killer shot Tim first? 5 casings where 6 shots were made, 5 casings where 4 shots were made - if he shot the father first, he wouldn't have another casing to drop there.

If Tim is shot first, it's
1 Shot, expel 1 casing, 2 Shot, expel 2 casing, 3 Shot, expel 3 casing, 4 shot, expel 4 casing, 5 shot, expel 5 casing, 6 shot -

Then go to where the father was, expel 6 casing, 1 Shot, expel 7 casing, 1 Shot, etc.

I don't see how there can be 5 casings on the stairs, and 4 shots, if the father was shot first?


The timeline is tight - but only if the cell phone call is accurate. Do we have anything saying it is? That information should have been the easiest to get, a subpeona to find the time of a sent call from Tim's wife's phone, the time of the recieved call, and if it was actually picked up, or went to voicemail on Tim's phone.

[Details]

A bit of expansion - yeah, I agree with Hawk - about this proving that the killer shot Tim first? 5 casings where 6 shots were made, 5 casings where 4 shots were made - if he shot the father first, he wouldn't have another casing to drop there.


What this disproves is any idea that the kid killed his dad first, then called Tim inside - that really doesn't fit. Now, there's some chance there's a bit of sequence here that isn't so straightforward. I don't see the father, no matter who the killer is, sitting on the steps, waiting his turn to be shot. So, Tim is shot in the driveway, he runs to the door, is shot again on the porch, enough to incapacitate, maybe shot one more time in the doorway, then the killer shoots the father who was heading up the stairs, maybe heard the shots and ran, was shot in the back, arm, head, taken down. Killer then goes to the top of the stairs, make sure house is empty, it is, fires one more into the father from up there, jumps over body, and shoots Tim some more to make sure the job is finished.

Still all of this makes Tim the primary target.

[Justice_Dawg]

:w00t: Hang onto your seat....I am gonna agree with you on this one.

:scared: I'm skeeeeeeerrrrrrrreeeeedddddddd. :scared:

[Justice_Dawg]

Don't excite yourself....sexual abuse = MOTIVE

Yeah, maybe Tiffany found out about it.

[Justice_Dawg]

I agree. It also might be that he had an accident and wanted to hide the underwear, but I suspect your reason is the correct one. IMO

:lol::lol::lol:

[suzanne]

The little boy is asked a few times in the confession interview.When you first saw your father what was he doing?The little boy answers he was on the floor.He said this a few times.She then asked him about Tim.When you first saw Tim what was he doing?The little boy answers he was laying on the ground.He says this a few times also.From what I thought I heard on the confession tape the little boy never admits to shooting them first.

[Justice_Dawg]

Tiffany Ann Devall owns two properties in St. Johns.
One is in Coronado Estates. The other is in Sunset acres, which I believe is the crime scene house on West 7th North.
There are no records of Vincent Romero owning property in Apache county.

Sorry, but if my husband was murdered in our home, I would not be able to go back in as SOON as it is released by police and start cleaning and going on like nothing happened.
Most likely a For Sale sign would go up ASAP if not sooner.
I lost a baby (stillbirth). I couldn't open the nursery door. My mom and aunt came in and cleaned the room out. I STILL MOVED!

JMHO!

[Justice_Dawg]

The little boy is asked a few times in the confession interview.When you first saw your father what was he doing?The little boy answers he was on the floor.He said this a few times.She then asked him about Tim.When you first saw Tim what was he doing?The little boy answers he was laying on the ground.He says this a few times also.From what I thought I heard on the confession tape the little boy never admits to shooting them first.

Nope, never.

[Hawk]

The shooter may have waited in his safest place. That would be at the top of the stairs where he had the advantage of the victim being slowed by climbing the stairs and limited room for retreat.
Mr.Romero was on the third step up from the stairway landing. Assuming the steps are the standard 8" tall and he was 71" (5'11), his head would have been about 32" above the 2nd floor hallway, or 16" below a 4' shooter.
The first shot may have passed through his left arm and bounced off his rib cage causing him to cover his ribs with both hands in pain. He may have gone into shock. The shooter ejected the spent round (marker V in the photos). He then reloaded and shot Mr. Romero above the left ear causing Mr. Romero to fall face forward on the top step and hallway landing. The shooter then stepped over or around the body ejecting the shell (Marker U) on the 4th step and reloaded on his way downstairs. This shell bounced off the south wall (to the shooters right).
The shooter then shot Mr. Romans it the left arm. This bullet passed through the arm, entered the ribs and traveled to his abdomen. Pain and shock may have been unbearable. The shooter ejected, reloaded and shot Mr. Romans in the left lung (marker X?). Mr. Romans staggered forward (20' or so). The shooter ejected/reloaded, then shot Mr. Romans in the heart (marker T?) causing him to collapse near the front door. The shooter the ejected/reloaded and shot Mr. Romans three times in the head. One shot that creased his head may have gone through the security door. After the last shot the shooter didn't eject the spent round. Only five shells were found outdoors. Instead he went back into the house and started up the stairs, ejecting (marker E) on the 2nd step and reloading as he went. This ejected shell was found next to the south wall to the right of where the shooter climbed the steps.
The shooter climbed over, or went around Mr. Romero at the top landing. He shot Mr. Romero once again. This time through his hard hat and into the brain. The shooter ejected (2nd shell found near Marker V)and reloaded then shot Mr. Romero near the center of his right shoulder. This bullet traveled downward to his abdomen.
The shooter was finished then. He went back down the stairs, ejecting the shell close to where he'd left another (Marker F). He reloaded a last time and left the rifle on the dog cage.

Had Mr. Romero been shot from below casings F and U would have been on the opposite wall. With the disabling shots he took he couldn't have made it to the top of the stairs. Remember these stairs are square, but they turn 180 degrees.

That's my guess anyway.

[muska]

Sorry, but if my husband was murdered in our home, I would not be able to go back in as SOON as it is released by police and start cleaning and going on like nothing happened.
Most likely a For Sale sign would go up ASAP if not sooner.
I lost a baby (stillbirth). I couldn't open the nursery door. My mom and aunt came in and cleaned the room out. I STILL MOVED!

JMHO!

She would have wanted to get back in quickly if there were things she wanted to clean up before anyone else saw them.

[Hawk]

What I can't get over is that Romero sat in the truck, on the phone, only twenty feet from the front door while all these shots were being fired inside the house. Then, after all the shots were fired, which he had to have heard, he had to be summoned into the house, once summoned, he went in? So, try and explain how he did not hear any of the shots fired...someone please!

One of the co-workers said that Mr. Romans usually parked facing the opposite direction. It may be that he turned around to allow Mr. Romero to get out of the truck, go inside to get something, and then the two of them were going somewhere. It seems the passenger door was left open on the truck. Anyway, if the truck was running (it's a 3/4 ton dodge so it's probably loud even at idle) and Mr. Romans was talking on the phone he may not have heard the shots from the upstairs of the home through an exterior wall and an interior wall. A .22 report is about 125db. A standard car horn is around 120db. I think that if Mr. Romero was in a hurry and left the front door open it might make a big difference, though.

Just guessing.

[Dallasnc]

If you were walking toward or away from someone why would the bullet from a shot to the arm go toward the ribs? VR was found in his clothes and TR went into his body, below the underarm and into his abdomen. The bullets from TR and VR except for the head shots were found in their abdomen also. What would the odds of 4 shots all hitting bone to deflect them to the abdomen?

IIRC, the police thought TR walked around the truck from the drivers side, which explained the blood drops on the drive.

[Justice_Dawg]

She would have wanted to get back in quickly if there were things she wanted to clean up before anyone else saw them.

As she calmly states "that is where my NEW hubby's brain matter landed"

[Dallasnc]

I'll answer myself as for TR being shot in the right arm. He could have been shot as he walked toward the front of the truck, which would have been his right side facing the house. VR would have to been shot before he entered the stairs?

[Hawk]

I'll answer myself as for TR being shot in the right arm. He could have been shot as he walked toward the front of the truck, which would have been his right side facing the house. VR would have to been shot before he entered the stairs?

Mr. Romeros wounds were too severe for him to have climbed the stairs after any one of them, except perhaps the arm wound. Anyway there wasn't a blood trail and the spent shell locations are wrong.

[Dallasnc]

Mr. Romeros wounds were too severe for him to have climbed the stairs after any one of them. Plus there wasn't a blood trail and the spent shell locations are wrong.

Then he must have been shot as he laid on his side or else was sideways in the stairs.

I saw where Tiffany has her name on 2 properties. I looked back at the tax records. She was first listed as a juvenile along with her father on one of the parcels one year. Then she was listed alone on that particular parcel and with her and her fathers on another parcel. Their taxes had not been paid when he was killed. They listed the due amount good for that month.

[Justice_Dawg]

If you were walking toward or away from someone why would the bullet from a shot to the arm go toward the ribs? VR was found in his clothes and TR went into his body, below the underarm and into his abdomen. The bullets from TR and VR except for the head shots were found in their abdomen also. What would the odds of 4 shots all hitting bone to deflect them to the abdomen?

IIRC, the police thought TR walked around the truck from the drivers side, which explained the blood drops on the drive.
I thought the shots to both men looked almost identical.

Why was the passenger side door left opened?

[Justice_Dawg]

Then he must have been shot as he laid on his side or else was sideways in the stairs.

I saw where Tiffany has her name on 2 properties. I looked back at the tax records. She was first listed as a juvenile along with her father on one of the parcels one year. Then she was listed alone on that particular parcel and with her and her fathers on another parcel. Their taxes had not been paid when he was killed. They listed the due amount good for that month.

TYVM!!!!:thumbsup:

[Dallasnc]

I thought the shots to both men looked almost identical.

Why was the passenger side door left opened?

TR was shot in the right arm and the bullet entered his body and traveled down. He has shot in the chest 2 times and the bullets traveled down.

VR was shot in the left arm, hit his ribcage and lodged in his clothing. I'm confused how you get shot through the arm toward your body in a stairwell. He was shot in the back around the shoulder area and the bullet traveled down.

I can't see any reason for the passenger door to be open and I can't figure out how they were shot. I doubt LE can come up with a logical explaination either. MOO

[Dallasnc]

TYVM!!!!:thumbsup:

You are very welcome. They also show when improvements were made to the properties. I'ld give you a link but I'ld have to hunt it. Some GICS(?) link on the county web.

[bkwits]

I thought the shots to both men looked almost identical.

Why was the passenger side door left opened?

I think the passenger door was left open because they were on their way to help someone put cabinets or something like that. I think VR went in to take off his work things while TR waited in the truck. That 's why VR left the passenger door open. He was coming right back to the truck. IMO

[Hawk]

TR was shot in the right arm and the bullet entered his body and traveled down. He has shot in the chest 2 times and the bullets traveled down.

VR was shot in the left arm, hit his ribcage and lodged in his clothing. I'm confused how you get shot through the arm toward your body in a stairwell. He was shot in the back around the shoulder area and the bullet traveled down.

I can't see any reason for the passenger door to be open and I can't figure out how they were shot. I doubt LE can come up with a logical explaination either. MOO

Mr. Romero may well have seen his assailant and naturally raised his arms to cover his face in a reflex defensive posture. Or he could have been shot straight on and the bullet was deflected by bone into his ribs. Either way he was found face down with his arms underneath him (SGT. Guinn).
The boy, Officer Jones, and SGT Rodriguez all said the truck door was open.

[muska]

TR was shot in the right arm and the bullet entered his body and traveled down. He has shot in the chest 2 times and the bullets traveled down.

VR was shot in the left arm, hit his ribcage and lodged in his clothing. I'm confused how you get shot through the arm toward your body in a stairwell. He was shot in the back around the shoulder area and the bullet traveled down.

I can't see any reason for the passenger door to be open and I can't figure out how they were shot. I doubt LE can come up with a logical explaination either. MOO

On another site, someone stated that VR and TR had only stopped home for a minute and were on their way to help someone out at another house. If true, VR may have left the passenger door open while running in the house for that brief stop.

[Hawk]

I think the passenger door was left open because they were on their way to help someone put cabinets or something like that. I think VR went in to take off his work things while TR waited in the truck. That 's why VR left the passenger door open. He was coming right back to the truck. IMO

Yes. Thank you. And wasn't it lucky for the shooter that both these men didn't enter the house. Bad for them, though.

[Dallasnc]

Yes. Thank you. And wasn't it lucky for the shooter that both these men didn't enter the house. Bad for them, though.

I saw your post earlier, so thank you both! I hadn't seen a reason for the door until now. I had thought it strange that he would go in and leave the door open.

[bookie]

The little boy is asked a few times in the confession interview.When you first saw your father what was he doing?The little boy answers he was on the floor.He said this a few times.She then asked him about Tim.When you first saw Tim what was he doing?The little boy answers he was laying on the ground.He says this a few times also.From what I thought I heard on the confession tape the little boy never admits to shooting them first.



He never admitted to shooting them period until after the police who "couldn't tell a lie while in this room" lied and told him someone said they saw him shoot them.

[suzanne]

He never admitted to shooting them period until after the police who "couldn't tell a lie while in this room" lied and told him someone said they saw him shoot them.

I agree.The little boy said through out the whole interview.I think,I think,I think,I might have.That's not a confession.The police officer lied to this little boy about everything then told the little boy.Don't lie tell us the truth now.She says what if we told told you some one said they heard you on the phone.She even had the audacity to say we have a copy of it.I really hope she is not working as a cop any more.She really upset me.

[Hawk]

Whoever the killer was used a single action. The autopsy report and empty casing locations, information we didn't have before, pretty much proves it.

[lurkinghere2]

Whoever the killer was used a single action. The autopsy report and empty casing locations, information we didn't have before, pretty much proves it.

I'm a novice at this stuff. I have been trying to visualize in my head how this all fits. I can't get in my head where people would have been standing, what direction/angle bullets entered the victims & what that means about where the shooter would have been standing & what that means about which person was really shot first.

Has there been a drawing done by any of the investigators yet? Or is that part of expert's that have been hired for investigation/reconstruction duty?????

[muska]

I just listened again to the "confession." I still don't think it tells us anything; the boy is all over the place. It's very clear that much of what he says is what he thinks the interrogators want him to say...they tell him they know he's lying and he better tell the truth so he doesn't "get in even more trouble." At the beginning, Avila asks who might have committed the crime. He says, "I don't know," but then after Avila persists, he adds, "we have a bad neighbor but they have a blue car." If he was creating a suspect with the white car, why didn't he just say the speeding car was blue? Then he could have pointed the officer to the "bad neighbor."

Also, when Avila finally gets him to say that he was home after school, she asks him, "What were you doing at home after school?" He has no idea, doesn't answer....probably because he wasn't there. She suggests that he went to the bathroom and he agrees. He then says he went to the bathroom and while he was in there his dad got home.If he had gone straight home as Avila convinced him, he was doing more than just using the bathroom. But he can't come up with anything else that he did.

IMO Avila might just as well have made up the confession without the kid there at all.

[Details]

Whoever the killer was used a single action. The autopsy report and empty casing locations, information we didn't have before, pretty much proves it.Can you explain why you think that?

[wolfi_2]

just a link to the Arizona court of appeals special actions
Arizona Court of Appeals
http://www.cofad1.state.az.us/
http://www.cofad1.state.az.us/casefiles/sa/SA080294.pdf

[courtsinsession]

Eyewitness testimony absolutely can be unreliable, therefore, it must be viewed in conjunction with other evidence. In this case, there is no evidence that anyone else was in the house -- within minutes of receiving the 911 call the police were there and cordoned off the area. In addition, they did a search of the area and surrounding areas; nothing suspicious was found. The boy initially said that he simply found the bodies, then changed his story that he may have gunshot residue on him from the smoke in the house, then, when it was explained to him how gunshot residue works, changed his story again and said that he may have shot his father to end his suffering. Rapid story alteration is the first red flag that something is amiss.

Yes, of course we all have to wait for the evidence to come back -- gunshot residue from his clothing, the angle at which both men were shot, fingerprints on bullet casings, phone records (determining if Romans was indeed on the phone with his wife)...etc. And yes of course, legally, this boy is considered innocent until proven guilty. But that does not prohibit one from coming up with a theory and a main suspect, and by its nature, naming someone as the primary suspect means that you have a suspicion of guilt. So please, you and others, stop batting around the "innocent until proven guilty" mantra...this is a discussion board and we have a right to state our suspicions based on the information available to us.

As I have stated before, no one wants to believe this child did this, but right now, in my opinion, based upon the information available to me, he is the prime suspect.

If anyone wonders about whether an 8 year old child is capable of a cold murder just think of the story of James Bugler in England; In 1993 two 10 year old children were convicted or torturing and murdering this 3 year old baby after taking him from a shopping center when his mother lost sight of him for a few seconds. There is a book i just read about the killing "Every Mother's NIghtmare"; by the way these two miscreants were freed from jail in 2001. This read is absolutely chilling. By the way these children were deemed to understand right from wrong and were deemed to know that torture and murder was wrong.

[wolfi_2]

If anyone wonders about whether an 8 year old child is capable of a cold murder just think of the story of James Bugler in England; In 1993 two 10 year old children were convicted or torturing and murdering this 3 year old baby after taking him from a shopping center when his mother lost sight of him for a few seconds. There is a book i just read about the killing "Every Mother's NIghtmare"; by the way these two miscreants were freed from jail in 2001. This read is absolutely chilling. By the way these children were deemed to understand right from wrong and were deemed to know that torture and murder was wrong.

The different to this case is, both boys had a bad history and both boys are about 1.5 years older when the crime took place.
http://www.murderuk.com/child_killers_thompson_venables.html

[Justice_Dawg]

I saw your post earlier, so thank you both! I hadn't seen a reason for the door until now. I had thought it strange that he would go in and leave the door open.

I did a check with my SO's truck, a 2006 Chevy. I left him in it, he turned off the motor and I left the door open and ran in the house.

It makes a God awful "Beep, BeeP Beep" noise until you shut the door. Could be anoying if you are on the phone.

JMHO!

[Justice_Dawg]

If anyone wonders about whether an 8 year old child is capable of a cold murder just think of the story of James Bugler in England; In 1993 two 10 year old children were convicted or torturing and murdering this 3 year old baby after taking him from a shopping center when his mother lost sight of him for a few seconds. There is a book i just read about the killing "Every Mother's NIghtmare"; by the way these two miscreants were freed from jail in 2001. This read is absolutely chilling. By the way these children were deemed to understand right from wrong and were deemed to know that torture and murder was wrong.

There you have 2 minds thinking together. Doesn't fit. IMO

[GentleBreeze]

One of the co-workers said that Mr. Romans usually parked facing the opposite direction. It may be that he turned around to allow Mr. Romero to get out of the truck, go inside to get something, and then the two of them were going somewhere. It seems the passenger door was left open on the truck. Anyway, if the truck was running (it's a 3/4 ton dodge so it's probably loud even at idle) and Mr. Romans was talking on the phone he may not have heard the shots from the upstairs of the home through an exterior wall and an interior wall. A .22 report is about 125db. A standard car horn is around 120db. I think that if Mr. Romero was in a hurry and left the front door open it might make a big difference, though.

Just guessing.

You know you might be right about them planning to leave again. I read an article, maybe on the Azfamily site, that Tim and Vincent had planned to go help another friend repair or build a chest of drawers that afternoon.

imoo

[Justice_Dawg]

I just listened again to the "confession." I still don't think it tells us anything; the boy is all over the place. It's very clear that much of what he says is what he thinks the interrogators want him to say...they tell him they know he's lying and he better tell the truth so he doesn't "get in even more trouble." At the beginning, Avila asks who might have committed the crime. He says, "I don't know," but then after Avila persists, he adds, "we have a bad neighbor but they have a blue car." If he was creating a suspect with the white car, why didn't he just say the speeding car was blue? Then he could have pointed the officer to the "bad neighbor."

Also, when Avila finally gets him to say that he was home after school, she asks him, "What were you doing at home after school?" He has no idea, doesn't answer....probably because he wasn't there. She suggests that he went to the bathroom and he agrees. He then says he went to the bathroom and while he was in there his dad got home.If he had gone straight home as Avila convinced him, he was doing more than just using the bathroom. But he can't come up with anything else that he did.

IMO Avila might just as well have made up the confession without the kid there at all.
Love that last line!
Good OnE! :lol:

[Justice_Dawg]

He never admitted to shooting them period until after the police who "couldn't tell a lie while in this room" lied and told him someone said they saw him shoot them.

In an interrogation, it is legal for LE to lie.
But, as we all know, it was just an interview and lying is a no no.:tonguewag:

[Hawk]

Can you explain why you think that?

The empty casing locations are the give-away. A semi-auto ejects where the shots are fired. A single shot bolt action ejects manually and can be done anywhere. Either model throws (ejects) the empty casings to the the right (unless it's a left handed rifle which this one isn't). Three of the casings found inside the house are next to the south (right-hand) walls. E going up the first flight and F and U coming down the second flight. F was found on the same step that Mr. Romero was standing on while U was found on the next step up (4th step). If a semi-auto was used it means the shooter would have been on the same step as the victim, or a step above and shooting in a downward direction. This is physically impossible. Plus, the wounds don't compare to such a scenario.

[GentleBreeze]

One of the co-workers said that Mr. Romans usually parked facing the opposite direction. It may be that he turned around to allow Mr. Romero to get out of the truck, go inside to get something, and then the two of them were going somewhere. It seems the passenger door was left open on the truck. Anyway, if the truck was running (it's a 3/4 ton dodge so it's probably loud even at idle) and Mr. Romans was talking on the phone he may not have heard the shots from the upstairs of the home through an exterior wall and an interior wall. A .22 report is about 125db. A standard car horn is around 120db. I think that if Mr. Romero was in a hurry and left the front door open it might make a big difference, though.

Just guessing.

I think you are right. We hear of these things happening in other cases and there are just so many variables that has to be considered. Other people have been murdered inside their homes by firearms, yet the neighbors that sat very close by the home or even in the next apartment, didn't hear anything, leaving a family member or concerned friend to decide to go to their home because they hadn't heard from them and they find their bodies there inside the home.

I do think that perhaps Vincent did close the main entry door to keep the heat in since it was in the 50s that day. The home is rather new, well insulated, second level, lots of drywall, wood, to absorb the sounds of the shots that were fired from inside the home.

imoo

[FurthurBB]

The different to this case is, both boys had a bad history and both boys are about 1.5 years older when the crime took place.
http://www.murderuk.com/child_killers_thompson_venables.html

They were also together. People and especially children will do more together than they would ever do alone. IMO

[bookie]

In an interrogation, it is legal for LE to lie.
But, as we all know, it was just an interview and lying is a no no.:tonguewag:


That's what makes this worse to me. She started the interview by telling him no one in that room could lie then both of the adults turned around and lied.

[suzanne]

That's what makes this worse to me. She started the interview by telling him no one in that room could lie then both of the adults turned around and lied.

I agree.Real professional huh?

[muska]

He tells the interrogators several times that he's telling the truth. Avila just says over and over and over: tell the truth, we all have to tell the truth, what is the truth, we have to know the truth etc. etc. If I can find the time, I'm going to go back and count how many times she tells him some version of "tell the truth."

If the police actaully believed that the boy was covering for a family member, why didn't they try to get at that? They only asked very briefly if Tiffany was home. If they thought he was covering for someone before the meeting, there was no reason not to still think the same at the end of that ....meeting/confession/interview....whatever they're claiming it was.

[wolfi_2]

how good is the possibility that the interview and the items of the wrong search warrant would be tossed out? and what did the state attorney have left to use in trial?

[Justice_Dawg]

how good is the possibility that the interview and the items of the wrong search warrant would be tossed out? and what did the state attorney have left to use in trial?

Great and nothing.

:thumbsup:

[Hawk]

Great and nothing.

:thumbsup:

If the video, empty casings (the main evidence) and the rifle are thrown out all they have left is Mrs. Romans statement.

You're right. Nothing.

As far we know right now they don't even have a clear motive.

[bookie]

how good is the possibility that the interview and the items of the wrong search warrant would be tossed out? and what did the state attorney have left to use in trial?


In a case involving an adult suspect (and that's what I believe they thought the boy was from the beginning of that interview) the "confession" would be thrown out in an instant but I don't know in this case. I read somewhere that it will be up to the judge to decide if it's valid or not.

[Hawk]

In a case involving an adult suspect (and that's what I believe they thought the boy was from the beginning of that interview) the "confession" would be thrown out in an instant but I don't know in this case. I read somewhere that it will be up to the judge to decide if it's valid or not.

I know very little about the legal system. Could this case be taken to a higher court? Even if it can be I don't know if the boy has anyone with the financial resources to do it.

[bkwits]

I did a check with my SO's truck, a 2006 Chevy. I left him in it, he turned off the motor and I left the door open and ran in the house.

It makes a God awful "Beep, BeeP Beep" noise until you shut the door. Could be anoying if you are on the phone.

JMHO!

Did you take the key out of the ignition? My Chevy SUV only beeps when the driver door is open, when not running. When the key is removed from the ignition, it shoudn't beep. IMO

[bookie]

I know very little about the legal system. Could this case be taken to a higher court? Even if it can be I don't know if the boy has anyone with the financial resources to do it.


If the confession is used (in the event it goes to trial) I'd imagine Brewer would be able to file an appeal. Someone more knowledgable should be able to answer that.

[bkwits]

I've been wondering if Tim was actually living with his wife. Tanya lives in or near Phoenix. Tim is listed as living in San Carlos on the reservation.

I read where someone said they were separated and getting a divorce.

[bookie]

I've been wondering if Tim was actually living with his wife. Tanya lives in or near Phoenix. Tim is listed as living in San Carlos on the reservation.

I read where someone said they were separated and getting a divorce.


The sidedish told police they were getting a divorce. That may just be something he told her to keep her a sidedish.

[Hawk]

The sidedish told police they were getting a divorce. That may just be something he told her to keep her a sidedish.


A sidedish? Never heard that term before. How appropriate. And how demeaning if the person knows she is one.

Sorry, off topic, but that's a term I'll remember. It's bit milder than what most of us old school southern boys use. But can be used more comfortably in mixed company.
Thanks.

[bkwits]

The sidedish told police they were getting a divorce. That may just be something he told her to keep her a sidedish.

Well, it wasn't just her but someone else, maybe from the bar.

But where did Tim actually live when not at Romeros? His wife and daughters live in Phoenix. Tim is listed as living on the Apache reservation.

[GentleBreeze]

Well, it wasn't just her but someone else, maybe from the bar.

But where did Tim actually live when not at Romeros? His wife and daughters live in Phoenix. Tim is listed as living on the Apache reservation.

From this article it said when he was not in St Johns he lived with Tanya.

http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/byauthor/266853

Excerpt:
Though her husband lived apart for much of the week, Tanya Romans said he returned on weekends and sent his love through calls and text messages.

It sounds like Tanya didn't know he had a girlfriend in St. Johns.

imoo

[suzanne]

The sidedish told police they were getting a divorce. That may just be something he told her to keep her a sidedish.

The sidedish.LOL LOL.(I hope I was suppose to laugh at that.If not I'm sorry.)

[suzanne]

A sidedish? Never heard that term before. How appropriate. And how demeaning if the person knows she is one.

Sorry, off topic, but that's a term I'll remember. It's bit milder than what most of us old school southern boys use. But can be used more comfortably in mixed company.
Thanks.


Your right.It is demeaning.I'm sorry.

[bkwits]

From this article it said when he was not in St Johns he lived with Tanya.

http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/byauthor/266853

Excerpt:
Though her husband lived apart for much of the week, Tanya Romans said he returned on weekends and sent his love through calls and text messages.

It sounds like Tanya didn't know he had a girlfriend in St. Johns.

imoo

Did Candi know he was married? One of the other bartenders said that Candi and Tim were both single. Candi said on her Myspace that Time had not told her the truth about some things.

I was just wondering. Hmmm

[Justice_Dawg]

The sidedish.LOL LOL.(I hope I was suppose to laugh at that.If not I'm sorry.)

I giggled my butt off. :lol:

[Details]

Did Candi know he was married? One of the other bartenders said that Candi and Tim were both single. Candi said on her Myspace that Time had not told her the truth about some things.

I was just wondering. HmmmIf she was telling police he was getting a divorce, then she knew.

On the other hand, what I recall is that she told police he proposed - if that's the case, and somewhere along the way that was assumed to mean divorce, and assumed to mean she said he was going to divorce - then we don't know if she knew or not.


He may have given her a story about being separated a long time, marriage over except for paperwork, blah blah blah.

Or she may have found out, and gone over there in a white car to deal with his two timing self!

So many questions.

[Justice_Dawg]

It is the boys birthday! If you wish, Go to http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewProfile&friendID=435515258 to send him a birthday greeting!! :thumbsup:

[Hawk]

If she was telling police he was getting a divorce, then she knew.

On the other hand, what I recall is that she told police he proposed - if that's the case, and somewhere along the way that was assumed to mean divorce, and assumed to mean she said he was going to divorce - then we don't know if she knew or not.


He may have given her a story about being separated a long time, marriage over except for paperwork, blah blah blah.

Or she may have found out, and gone over there in a white car to deal with his two timing self!

So many questions.

Why would she kill Mr. Romero?
If Mrs. Romans, or the sidedish (I like that word), or anyone else for that matter, intended to kill Mr. Romans why would they take the chance, not only of arrest but also of severe retaliation from both men, of going to the house in broad daylight when the boy and maybe the stepmother might be there, use the boys gun, or one like it, to shot both men? Talk about risky business.

Why not wait outside the bar and shoot him with a suppressor pistol through his truck window a few times? The whole area appears to be remote. Chances of success would be far greater. (Even though these killings were certainly successful!).

Just a thought.

[GentleBreeze]

Did Candi know he was married? One of the other bartenders said that Candi and Tim were both single. Candi said on her Myspace that Time had not told her the truth about some things.

I was just wondering. Hmmm


IIRC, she thought he was single.

I don't think Tim was planning on marrying anyone. He was just playing the field, knowing his wife wouldn't catch him in a town a 170 miles from where she lived.

imoo

[Crispy]

In the police interview Candi says that she knew Tim was married but that he was getting a divorce. She also says that his two daughters knew about her.

IIRC, other people at the bar did not know that Tim was married.

[IAMME]

IIRC, she thought he was single.

I don't think Tim was planning on marrying anyone. He was just playing the field, knowing his wife wouldn't catch him in a town a 170 miles from where she lived.

imoo

I don't know, in one of the police reports it says that Candi had met Tim's daughters, and that one of them was okay with the relationship, and that one was pissed (i think the older one). That doesnt sound like a man planning on staying with his wife, I mean if they were 2 and 3 I might buy the fact that he was banking on them not telling, but they are grown women...........and one of them was not happy bout daddy having the "sidedish"

Tanya also says that he was their sole provider, and yet she works for the same company as he does........

Denial, it aint just a river......

[suzanne]

I giggled my butt off. :lol:

Well,I aint gonna be used as no sidedish.He gonna be side kicked out the door.LOL.Do let da door kick ya in the b**t as he leave.(Let me see if I can sound like the transcipts.LOL.):biggrin:

[GentleBreeze]

I don't know, in one of the police reports it says that Candi had met Tim's daughters, and that one of them was okay with the relationship, and that one was pissed (i think the older one). That doesn't sound like a man planning on staying with his wife, I mean if they were 2 and 3 I might buy the fact that he was banking on them not telling, but they are grown women...........and one of them was not happy bout daddy having the "sidedish"

Tanya also says that he was their sole provider, and yet she works for the same company as he does........

Denial, it ain't just a river......

I thought he worked for Zachary Construction? And she works elsewhere like Salt River Project or something like that.

He may be real close to his daughters. He could have told them not to tell their mom and even the one that didn't like it, may not want to hurt her mom by telling her.

I doubt her income is enough to sustain them or to keep the girls in college and Tim's wages may have been way more and actually took care of all the responsibilities.

imoo

[bkwits]

In the police interview Candi says that she knew Tim was married but that he was getting a divorce. She also says that his two daughters knew about her.

IIRC, other people at the bar did not know that Tim was married.

I remember now that she said the daughters knew about her, but I didn't remember the part about the divorce. Maybe she thought he was in the process of getting divorced.

I agree with GB that he prob liked his situation as it was. It seems that he had sampled several sidedishes. '

:sneaky:

[GentleBreeze]

In the police interview Candi says that she knew Tim was married but that he was getting a divorce. She also says that his two daughters knew about her.

IIRC, other people at the bar did not know that Tim was married.

I think he was like a lot of men and women who do this. They want their cake and eat it too. I think he was BSing Candi. Wasn't it said that he went with another woman there too?

imoo

[bkwits]

Maybe he hadn't told his daughters at all. Maybe he just told Candi that he had, who knows? Cheating men can be such dogs. There were at least one or two other women mentioned that he was said to have slept with. :closedeyes:

[Details]

Why would she kill Mr. Romero?
If Mrs. Romans, or the sidedish (I like that word), or anyone else for that matter, intended to kill Mr. Romans why would they take the chance, not only of arrest but also of severe retaliation from both men, of going to the house in broad daylight when the boy and maybe the stepmother might be there, use the boys gun, or one like it, to shot both men? Talk about risky business.

Why not wait outside the bar and shoot him with a suppressor pistol through his truck window a few times? The whole area appears to be remote. Chances of success would be far greater. (Even though these killings were certainly successful!).

Just a thought.If it were her - it'd be a crime of passion - find out, get ticked, find a car to drive over there that he wouldn't recognize - kill him - then kill the witness. Who knows, maybe a fight inside the house, and they boy's gun, or the Mossberg happened to be handy when Tim went out to his truck to get away from her yelling, any such thing.

I don't have any real solid scenario for her - it's just one of the many possibilities that they don't seem to be looking at. The number one reason for murder - relationship issues - Tim had two relationships going at once, that has sure been in the past a reason for murder.

[Justice_Dawg]

Well,I aint gonna be used as no sidedish.He gonna be side kicked out the door.LOL.Do let da door kick ya in the b**t as he leave.(Let me see if I can sound like the transcipts.LOL.):biggrin:

What fer? :lol::lol:

[bkwits]

I don't think Candi did it or had it done. I think she really believed they were going to be together. Of the women involved, Tanya and Eryn had apparent motives. Eryn just seems to timid to have done this. Tanya seems like an agressive, in-your-face type of person. Not saying she did it, or planned it. But she seems the most likely of the women that we know of. IMO

[GentleBreeze]

Maybe he hadn't told his daughters at all. Maybe he just told Candi that he had, who knows? Cheating men can be such dogs. There were at least one or two other women mentioned that he was said to have slept with. :closedeyes:

I thought about that too, bkwits. I bet you are right.

imo

[suzanne]

It is the boys birthday! If you wish, Go to http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewProfile&friendID=435515258 to send him a birthday greeting!! :thumbsup:

Happy Birthday little boy.I am praying for you.

[Hawk]

If it were her - it'd be a crime of passion - find out, get ticked, find a car to drive over there that he wouldn't recognize - kill him - then kill the witness. Who knows, maybe a fight inside the house, and they boy's gun, or the Mossberg happened to be handy when Tim went out to his truck to get away from her yelling, any such thing.

I don't have any real solid scenario for her - it's just one of the many possibilities that they don't seem to be looking at. The number one reason for murder - relationship issues - Tim had two relationships going at once, that has sure been in the past a reason for murder.

I believe they looked at Mr. Romans cell phone and saw that the call to his wife began at 4:52pm and ended 2 1/2 minutes later.

It's strange that SGT Rodriguez broke the bad news to Mrs. Romans over the phone from Mr. Romans mothers home in San Carlos. Mesa is only 80 miles from San Carlos. It seems a face to face would have been more appropriate. And they could have gotten a recorded statement from her then rather than later at the funeral home in St. Johns.

[Crispy]

I think he was like a lot of men and women who do this. They want their cake and eat it too. I think he was BSing Candi. Wasn't it said that he went with another woman there too?

imoo


I wanna say the others name was Misti, but I think she told the police that she wasn't involved with him. She was the one with the "psycho boyfriend" wasn't she? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Who knows? He might have been pulling one over on Candi so he could keep stringing her along or she could be telling the truth. This whole thing is a mess. There are plenty of other people I would like to see ruled out. jmo
:unsure:

[muska]

I just can't imagine being his mother and having to take him back there today. I hope Eryn is a really, really strong person; she's going to need to be if she's to see her son through all of this.