Dec. 22nd thru 12/29

[Crispy]

Now that's surprise!! From the defence doctor of all people.

Well no it's not a surprise. It's just the first that has been said about any of the competency hearings.

[Pag Boi]

I told our wonderful Gentlebreeze today that 'ole Butchy signed the warrant. She insisted Roca signed them all. She even made me give her a link. LOL. May she EAT CROW!

:lol: Be sure you use the proper weapon. Don't want good crow going to waste on a technicality. JMOO

[Crispy]

I just caught the you don't want to be in bigger trouble...when the officer said that they recorded calls was she saying Tim said that he shot him, or did I misread that?

That's the way they make it seem. :confused: I didn't catch that when I listened to the video.

[JD1974]

That's the way they make it seem. :confused: I didn't catch that when I listened to the video.


I didn't hear it but that is certainly how I read it LOL

[Pag Boi]

Apparently many here somehow know more than his own family and LE.

They must be psychic:blink::rolleyes:

Don't be so modest when talking about yourself. Psychic abilities get such a bad rap :shrug:

The child's mother sure does know a lot more than me - or you. I anxiously await the TRUTH about what LE and the rest of his family really know. But you don't need to wait since you already know what happened. Lucky ol U.

I do hope Grandpa knows where his white car was that fateful afternoon. JMOO

[GentleBreeze]

Well no it's not a surprise. It's just the first that has been said about any of the competency hearings.

I am confused.

I thought Wood designated Daniel Juliano to do the evaluation on the boy.

Did he change it to Cady?

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/REQUEST%20FOR%20EXPERT.pdf

[Crispy]

I am confused.

I thought Wood designated Daniel Juliano to do the evaluation on the boy.

Did he change it to Cady?

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/REQUEST%20FOR%20EXPERT.pdf

He withdrew that request at the Dec. 8th hearing and requested Dr. Cady

[Pag Boi]

BK, I'm not saying to ignore this case or to stop looking for evidence which points one way or the other. I think what you guys have done here uncovering so much corruption in that town, plus finding evidence that points to someone else doing this crime, is brilliant. Honest. But what I am saying is - and maybe it's because I am so frustrated with the lack of momentum on this case- with all this information you guys have uncovered and come up with, who that counts are you telling? Maybe what I am saying is that someone should point someone with authority out there in St. Johns to what you guys have put together. I don't know, at this point I'm just grasping at straws because it bothers me that this baby is in jail when he should be home going to school and enjoying his Christmas.

I think you should try to get the attention of authority if you are frustrated. Taking action might help reduce your grasping straw syndrome? I don't believe it would make it any worse.

I am just on this message board to discuss the case. I would love to read about the proactive measures taken by posters tho. I don't consider reading public documents = uncovering corruption. But maybe those you contact would see it as you do.

Heck, there could already be a movement on another board or in AZ to unveil the alleged corruption. Maybe you could uncover that first! Go girl!
JMOO

[GentleBreeze]

He withdrew that request at the Dec. 8th hearing and requested Dr. Cady


Thank you. I did remember he did change his mind. Did it say why he decided not to use Juliano?

imoo

[Crispy]

Thank you. I did remember he did change his mind. Did it say why he decided not to use Juliano?

imoo


I found it in the minute hearing for that day, but I'm on my husband's computer(slow!!) and it won't open the actual transcripts

I'll try and look when I get back from shopping and I'm on my own computer.

[IAMME]

Thank you. I did remember he did change his mind. Did it say why he decided not to use Juliano?

imoo


I dont remember if it specifically said, but I had the impression that Juliano had declined to take the case......I could be wrong though.

[Pag Boi]

The filing of the motion to supress evidence due to an illegal search warrant does not mean that anything collected connects the boy to the crime.
As we all know, none of the results of any of those items is even back yet.

Mr. Wood is doing his job and protecting his client. We have a 4th and 14th amendment for good reason.

14th amendment- http://www.14thamendment.us/amendment/14th_amendment.html

4th amendment- http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment04/

MOO


Great post. Sad tho that you would have to explain that to a poster that claims she has been following crime cases for +20 years. JMOO

[Pag Boi]

Spector was a mistrial. I can't believe she is even using that example. LOL

It reminds of me of Geragos. :loveeyes:

[Hawk]

Well no it's not a surprise. It's just the first that has been said about any of the competency hearings.

No. it isn't a surprise. I was kidding. Sorry.
There are some sites with Dr. Cady butting heads with other shrinks in AZ. How could any of them say with a straight face that an 8 year old is ready to stand trial for murder?
I don't believe they will. They'd be black-balled from shrinkdom wouldn't they?

[Pag Boi]

So, if we think the boy is guilty, we're horrible people who don't abide by the "innocent until proven guilty" principle, but it's okay to convict the prosecutor when he's simply under investigation?

I just find it hard to believe that anyone would be able to knowingly frame an 8 year old boy and sleep at night.


Too bad the 8yo was never "simply under investigation."

We don't know what evidence there is against the prosecutor. But we know what LE chose to snip and release regarding an 8yo child with no knowledge or advice of counsel. I find it hard to believe any officer of the court would find it acceptable to treat an 8yo child this way under any circumstance. Much less one that saw his father lifeless in a pool of blood. But that's just me :shrug:

[muska]

I wonder who's on the tape that shows a conflict between officers. Maybe there was one who disagreed with the way things were being done.

[bkwits]

I just caught the you don't want to be in bigger trouble...when the officer said that they recorded calls was she saying Tim said that he shot him, or did I misread that?


That confused me, as well. I went back and read it twice.

[Details]

11, 12, 13 year olds are quite a bit different from 8 year olds - although most of them I'd also see as being too immature for the criminal justice system.

And this 8 year old has no violent history, no reports, rumors, nor anything of his acting out towards anyone at all - friends, classmates, neighbors, animals, etc.

[patschican]

Adults defend themselves, know enough to lie, know enough not to confess falsely in most cases. They're much harder to prosecute. If they're knowingly - or not knowingly - going after an innocent kid because they managed to get something a bit like a confession ("I think" "maybe" and two gunshots rather than the actual number don't make for much of a real confession) - they're quite far from the first prosecutors to do so. There are many other good suspects - and they didn't take even a week to look into them, not even 24 hours, before they decided it was the kid.

Yeah, you see a lot that most others don't see, apparently. The kid's demeanor at his father's funeral (which he didn't get to attend), fingerprint evidence that still isn't available today, etc. The grandmother, even while she believes the kid did it - she on the other hand, talks about him sobbing into her the whole night. But, yeah, anyone who likes can judge the poor shocked child on his demeanor as two cops tell him they know he killed his father, and as he attempts to give them a story that will make it all stop.

I'm not as thrown by the "I think" and "maybe" as others. My experience with kids is that they have spotty memories, even in non-stressed situations. I can only imagine how that would worsen in a scenario as stressful as what this child is accused of doing.

Heck, when an intruder accidentally entered our apartment once (he was drunk and had the wrong house), and I awakened to find a stranger in the living room, I actually lost time...there were three or four minutes that were so fragmented in my memory, they may as well have not existed. I remember seeing him there, screaming, then the next thing I knew I was out back calling the cops. I have no idea how I got there. So, stress can seriously play with the memory.

[Details]

I'm not as thrown by the "I think" and "maybe" as others. My experience with kids is that they have spotty memories, even in non-stressed situations. I can only imagine how that would worsen in a scenario as stressful as what this child is accused of doing.

Heck, when an intruder accidentally entered our apartment once (he was drunk and had the wrong house), and I awakened to find a stranger in the living room, I actually lost time...there were three or four minutes that were so fragmented in my memory, they may as well have not existed. I remember seeing him there, screaming, then the next thing I knew I was out back calling the cops. I have no idea how I got there. So, stress can seriously play with the memory.He gives a clean clear, solid account of his original story. "I think" comes up when the police start telling him lies and suggesting that his original story isn't good enough. Children around this age - as past false confessions, as poster's individual family stories can attest - if the adults suggest what they are saying isn't good enough, they make something else up.

I don't know if you were here for it - for one poster, their child told a CPS agent that his father broke his arm. When asked - after some court costs and separation and trauma later - why he said that - he said he figured if he told her what she wanted to hear, she'd stop asking questions and let him go play soccer. Not dissimilar to this case - the police made it clear what they wanted to hear, and told him when he answered all their questions, he could go to his mother. IMO - he gave them the answers they were clearly indicating they wanted, the only answers they'd accept, in order to go to his mother, get out of that room.

He never tells a consistent story - it changes any time the police give him a new element he's supposed to believe happened (someone saw him do it, etc.). And it never matches the crime scene. He just keeps making up a new story for whatever they say next. I'm sure no matter how fragmented your memory, the elements you remembered stayed the same, the elements you didn't you knew you didn't.



So - does your opinion on this case change knowing that your initial assumption - that the police had ballistics, fingerprint info back - is false?

[patschican]

Too bad the 8yo was never "simply under investigation."

We don't know what evidence there is against the prosecutor. But we know what LE chose to snip and release regarding an 8yo child with no knowledge or advice of counsel. I find it hard to believe any officer of the court would find it acceptable to treat an 8yo child this way under any circumstance. Much less one that saw his father lifeless in a pool of blood. But that's just me :shrug:

I'm confused; if he hasn't been officially charged then his attorney can submit a writ of habeas corpus and have him released. Why hasn't he?

Other thoughts that make me still suspect the boy:

If Tim's blood trail heading toward the house is indicative of him running away from his attacker, then the bullets would have come from behind, which is pretty easy to determine in an autopsy. If the wounds are still from the front, I think it supports the notion of a child shooting at him, because one might think that one could overpower a child before being wounded too badly. I know I would...if a child was shooting at me, I think my impulse would be to run toward the child in the hopes of knocking the gun away from him before I was too seriously wounded. An adult however...I would try to run the other way, or hide behind something.

Also, if this boy is truly innocent, then what we have here is what I call the OJ factor -- many different people from many different places would have to be conspiring against this boy. His grandparents, the interviewing POs, the DA, the witnesses who said they heard the gunfire at 5:00 (police were called at 5:06, from what I recall), the witnesses who said the boy went straight home and didn't wander the neighborhood, Tanya...etc. I do not buy conspiracies of that magnitude. I never have.

[bkwits]

I'm not as thrown by the "I think" and "maybe" as others. My experience with kids is that they have spotty memories, even in non-stressed situations. I can only imagine how that would worsen in a scenario as stressful as what this child is accused of doing.

Heck, when an intruder accidentally entered our apartment once (he was drunk and had the wrong house), and I awakened to find a stranger in the living room, I actually lost time...there were three or four minutes that were so fragmented in my memory, they may as well have not existed. I remember seeing him there, screaming, then the next thing I knew I was out back calling the cops. I have no idea how I got there. So, stress can seriously play with the memory.

Good point. I'm sure the child isn't sure now what happened. He may think he shot them, whether he did not not. He was traumatized.

[LindaNJ1216]

Aaah. I understand you now.

As my 'rents used to preach, "we're known by the company we keep." I guess I am jaded towards this child's innocence b/c I don't know any violent offenders, under or over the ages you mention. I have read about them though. Do you think this 8yo was just ahead of the curve? Stay safe! JMOO

Yeah, I do think he is ahead of the curve. Scary as that thought is.

[bkwits]

I'm confused; if he hasn't been officially charged then his attorney can submit a writ of habeas corpus and have him released. Why hasn't he?

Other thoughts that make me still suspect the boy:

If Tim's blood trail heading toward the house is indicative of him running away from his attacker, then the bullets would have come from behind, which is pretty easy to determine in an autopsy. If the wounds are still from the front, I think it supports the notion of a child shooting at him, because one might think that one could overpower a child before being wounded too badly. I know I would...if a child was shooting at me, I think my impulse would be to run toward the child in the hopes of knocking the gun away from him before I was too seriously wounded. An adult however...I would try to run the other way, or hide behind something.

Also, if this boy is truly innocent, then what we have here is what I call the OJ factor -- many different people from many different places would have to be conspiring against this boy. His grandparents, the interviewing POs, the DA, the witnesses who said they heard the gunfire at 5:00 (police were called at 5:06, from what I recall), the witnesses who said the boy went straight home and didn't wander the neighborhood, Tanya...etc. I do not buy conspiracies of that magnitude. I never have.

Of course you are free to think what you will. But you are all over the place and have a great deal of misinformation. I suggest you study the case a little more.

JMO

[patschican]

He gives a clean clear, solid account of his original story. "I think" comes up when the police start telling him lies and suggesting that his original story isn't good enough. Children around this age - as past false confessions, as poster's individual family stories can attest - if the adults suggest what they are saying isn't good enough, they make something else up.

I don't know if you were here for it - for one poster, their child told a CPS agent that his father broke his arm. When asked - after some court costs and separation and trauma later - why he said that - he said he figured if he told her what she wanted to hear, she'd stop asking questions and let him go play soccer. Not dissimilar to this case - the police made it clear what they wanted to hear, and told him when he answered all their questions, he could go to his mother. IMO - he gave them the answers they were clearly indicating they wanted, the only answers they'd accept, in order to go to his mother, get out of that room.

He never tells a consistent story - it changes any time the police give him a new element he's supposed to believe happened (someone saw him do it, etc.). And it never matches the crime scene. He just keeps making up a new story for whatever they say next. I'm sure no matter how fragmented your memory, the elements you remembered stayed the same, the elements you didn't you knew you didn't.



So - does your opinion on this case change knowing that your initial assumption - that the police had ballistics, fingerprint info back - is false?

Honestly, my gut tells me he did it. I would never convict with this paltry evidence...but my gut tells me that he did it, and that the only reason any of us are having a hard time with it is because he is 8. Make him 28, look at the evidence we have right now (albeit, circumstantial), and ask yourself what you would think. Again, right now, I would vote not guilty were I a juror. But...

There are two reasons why someone would change their story every time new elements are introduced. One is what you have so aptly detailed above. Another, however, is because someone realizes that their story doesn't explain whatever the new factor is, so they try to alter it to explain the new factor.

[LindaNJ1216]

Honestly, my gut tells me he did it. I would never convict with this paltry evidence...but my gut tells me that he did it, and that the only reason any of us are having a hard time with it is because he is 8. Make him 28, look at the evidence we have right now (albeit, circumstantial), and ask yourself what you would think. Again, right now, I would vote not guilty were I a juror. But...

There are two reasons why someone would change their story every time new elements are introduced. One is what you have so aptly detailed above. Another, however, is because someone realizes that their story doesn't explain whatever the new factor is, so they try to alter it to explain the new factor.


My gut tells me he did it too.

[patschican]

Of course you are free to think what you will. But you are all over the place and have a great deal of misinformation. I suggest you study the case a little more.

JMO

I freely admitted I was vacillating in this case. I'm surprised others aren't. However, my fluctuations were based on what I read from other posters. When I actually got the link to the site with the court documents and was able to read as much first hand knowledge as we can possibly hope for, I began to settle more.

Quick question for you all -- has this boy recanted his confession at all? The transcripts indicate no.

[Details]

I'm confused; if he hasn't been officially charged then his attorney can submit a writ of habeas corpus and have him released. Why hasn't he?

Other thoughts that make me still suspect the boy:

If Tim's blood trail heading toward the house is indicative of him running away from his attacker, then the bullets would have come from behind, which is pretty easy to determine in an autopsy. If the wounds are still from the front, I think it supports the notion of a child shooting at him, because one might think that one could overpower a child before being wounded too badly. I know I would...if a child was shooting at me, I think my impulse would be to run toward the child in the hopes of knocking the gun away from him before I was too seriously wounded. An adult however...I would try to run the other way, or hide behind something.

Also, if this boy is truly innocent, then what we have here is what I call the OJ factor -- many different people from many different places would have to be conspiring against this boy. His grandparents, the interviewing POs, the DA, the witnesses who said they heard the gunfire at 5:00 (police were called at 5:06, from what I recall), the witnesses who said the boy went straight home and didn't wander the neighborhood, Tanya...etc. I do not buy conspiracies of that magnitude. I never have.Why do you think he hasn't been charged? We're in the middle of his trial.

Tim has many wounds - IIRC, some are in front, some are in back.

There's no grand conspiracy anyone is alleging here. His grandparents are weird, apparently thought he was being disciplined too harshly - and they consider him crying that night as evidence he killed them - sorry, that's just weird, the interviewing POs apparently are quite convinced by Tim's wife, the DA is taking the confession as an easy out to solving the crime, the witnesses are in no way inconsistient with the boy's story (the boy ran across the street to a friend, who called his dad, dad came home, then called 911 - 6 minutes is an extremely short time for such a thing to happen). No conspiracy is necessary - nor has it been suggested. POs used adult tactics and jumped to a conclusion about the kid doing it - that's not a conspiracy, it's poor judgement. The DA, either sees an easy out, or actually believes an 8 year old is confessing honestly, in spite of all the indications, and goes for it.

What witnesses said the boy came straight home? I've seen it alleged (by the same poster who claimed to have seen what the boy looked like at the father's funeral - he wasn't there), but nowhere have I seen any such statement in any media report or court document.

[LindaNJ1216]

I freely admitted I was vacillating in this case. I'm surprised others aren't. However, my fluctuations were based on what I read from other posters. When I actually got the link to the site with the court documents and was able to read as much first hand knowledge as we can possibly hope for, I began to settle more.

Quick question for you all -- has this boy recanted his confession at all? The transcripts indicate no.


Nope.

As far as we know, he is sticking to his story that he shot them. He also spoke with a sw and asked her if she wanted to know why he did it.

[bkwits]

Yeah, I do think he is ahead of the curve. Scary as that thought is.

You had mentioned in a previous post that he was a "disturbed 8 year old".

Wouldn't that have veen noticeable before this happened?

[bkwits]

I freely admitted I was vacillating in this case. I'm surprised others aren't. However, my fluctuations were based on what I read from other posters. When I actually got the link to the site with the court documents and was able to read as much first hand knowledge as we can possibly hope for, I began to settle more.

Quick question for you all -- has this boy recanted his confession at all? The transcripts indicate no.

What confession? He never actually confessed to what was found at the crime scene.

[bkwits]

Nope.

As far as we know, he is sticking to his story that he shot them. He also spoke with a sw and asked her if she wanted to know why he did it.

Poor kid. :sad:

[Hawk]

What confession? He never actually confessed to what was found at the crime scene.

He sure didn't. He said he threw the rifle in the closet. Now why would he lie about where he put the murder weapon after confessing to two killings. If you're going to believe his confession don't you have to believe all of it?

[Details]

Honestly, my gut tells me he did it. I would never convict with this paltry evidence...but my gut tells me that he did it, and that the only reason any of us are having a hard time with it is because he is 8. Make him 28, look at the evidence we have right now (albeit, circumstantial), and ask yourself what you would think. Again, right now, I would vote not guilty were I a juror. But...

There are two reasons why someone would change their story every time new elements are introduced. One is what you have so aptly detailed above. Another, however, is because someone realizes that their story doesn't explain whatever the new factor is, so they try to alter it to explain the new factor.A 28 year old - I don't really see the evidence there. But then, there is a difference based on age.

There are shells at the top and middle of the stairs, above and below the father's body. A 28 year old man could have stepped over the body to shoot from both above and below without getting bloody - an 8 year old cannot.

A 28 year old has a mature brain, a much better comprehension of reality, as well as consequences - when they confess, even if police provoke it based on lies - it's more likely to be reality - not so an 8 year old.

A 28 year old methodolically reloading 10 times without ever dropping a shell, even as a person they just shot runs towards them - that's possible. An 8 year old, whose room and habits show him to be a typical 8 year old - no.

A 28 year old man where the only evidence against him is that his gun is of the same caliber (but may not be the weapon - no effort at all was made to hide it), and the words of an estranged wife whose hubby was proposing to another woman - yeah, I'd find that incredibly weak. Insanely weak. I wouldn't be looking at him as probably guilty - not based on that little bit.


Tim looks like the main target. There are several people - a wife, a girlfriend, possible drug dealers upset with him from his past, work people, people they were fighting with at a bar - who all have motives, and in any normal investigation are considered prime suspects.


And an 8 year old is quite simply, biologically, medically, and phyiscally, NOT the same as a 28 year old.

[bkwits]

Although I never seriously suspected Tanya, I am starting to now after I found out that she directly said that the boy is lying.

[Details]

Quick question for you all -- has this boy recanted his confession at all? The transcripts indicate no.He hasn't had a chance to say yes or no. With an 8 year old, he may have believed the new stories he was making up - or he may not. But the only thing we have from him is the confession. And this is pretty natural - we shouldn't even have that in this case! He's a minor - they're supposed to be protecting him.

[patschican]

Why do you think he hasn't been charged? We're in the middle of his trial.

Tim has many wounds - IIRC, some are in front, some are in back.

There's no grand conspiracy anyone is alleging here. His grandparents are weird, apparently thought he was being disciplined too harshly - and they consider him crying that night as evidence he killed them - sorry, that's just weird, the interviewing POs apparently are quite convinced by Tim's wife, the DA is taking the confession as an easy out to solving the crime, the witnesses are in no way inconsistient with the boy's story (the boy ran across the street to a friend, who called his dad, dad came home, then called 911 - 6 minutes is an extremely short time for such a thing to happen). No conspiracy is necessary - nor has it been suggested. POs used adult tactics and jumped to a conclusion about the kid doing it - that's not a conspiracy, it's poor judgement. The DA, either sees an easy out, or actually believes an 8 year old is confessing honestly, in spite of all the indications, and goes for it.

What witnesses said the boy came straight home? I've seen it alleged (by the same poster who claimed to have seen what the boy looked like at the father's funeral - he wasn't there), but nowhere have I seen any such statement in any media report or court document.

I made the statement regarding him "not being charged" because people were upset at him being detained, implying his rights were being trampled/ignored. So clearly, he must not be charged, because it's not a violation of civil rights for someone to be detained/denied bail during their trial if they're charged with double homicide, particularly premeditated double-homicide.

I'll have to review the transcripts and see if the mention of the witnesses who claim he went straight home was in there, or if I too remember it from other posters on the board. I don't remember right now.

[Hawk]

A 28 year old - I don't really see the evidence there. But then, there is a difference based on age.

There are shells at the top and middle of the stairs, above and below the father's body. A 28 year old man could have stepped over the body to shoot from both above and below without getting bloody - an 8 year old cannot.

A 28 year old has a mature brain, a much better comprehension of reality, as well as consequences - when they confess, even if police provoke it based on lies - it's more likely to be reality - not so an 8 year old.

A 28 year old methodolically reloading 10 times without ever dropping a shell, even as a person they just shot runs towards them - that's possible. An 8 year old, whose room and habits show him to be a typical 8 year old - no.

A 28 year old man where the only evidence against him is that his gun is of the same caliber (but may not be the weapon - no effort at all was made to hide it), and the words of an estranged wife whose hubby was proposing to another woman - yeah, I'd find that incredibly weak. Insanely weak. I wouldn't be looking at him as probably guilty - not based on that little bit.


Tim looks like the main target. There are several people - a wife, a girlfriend, possible drug dealers upset with him from his past, work people, people they were fighting with at a bar - who all have motives, and in any normal investigation are considered prime suspects.


And an 8 year old is quite simply, biologically, medically, and phyiscally, NOT the same as a 28 year old.

I agree.
But they did find blood on the boy's pant leg. That could have gotten there when he checked his dad "to see if he was alive a little bit".

[Hawk]

He hasn't had a chance to say yes or no. With an 8 year old, he may have believed the new stories he was making up - or he may not. But the only thing we have from him is the confession. And this is pretty natural - we shouldn't even have that in this case! He's a minor - they're supposed to be protecting him.

He may well have recanted to Mr. Brewer or Mr. Wood. No one else is allowed to talk about the case to him.
Bet his Mom knows, though.

[Details]

I made the statement regarding him "not being charged" because people were upset at him being detained, implying his rights were being trampled/ignored. So clearly, he must not be charged, because it's not a violation of civil rights for someone to be detained/denied bail during their trial if they're charged with double homicide, particularly premeditated double-homicide.

I'll have to review the transcripts and see if the mention of the witnesses who claim he went straight home was in there, or if I too remember it from other posters on the board. I don't remember right now.Normally, even someone charged with homicide is granted bail. Unless they're a flight risk (obviously this boy can go nowhere on his own), or there's reason to believe they'll kill others (8 years old - so long as no one gives him a new gun, he's helpless). So, yeah, it is wrong for him to be so detained, in my opinion as well. And he's 8 years old - there are real mental and physical differences, and as the judge readily admits, the system is NOT set up for him. They have to keep him in solitary, to try to minimize the harm to him, because they have no place for him.

[muska]

He may well have recanted to Mr. Brewer or Mr. Wood. No one else is allowed to talk about the case to him.
Bet his Mom knows, though.

And Brewer said he has seen nothing to indicate the boy commited this crime.

[bkwits]

I agree.
But they did find blood on the boy's pant leg. That could have gotten there when he checked his dad "to see if he was alive a little bit".

But only a little bit. IIRC, in questioning the officer collecting the child's clothing, Brewer asked if the officer noticed anything on the clothing. The officer said she didn't.

[bkwits]

Normally, even someone charged with homicide is granted bail. Unless they're a flight risk (obviously this boy can go nowhere on his own), or there's reason to believe they'll kill others (8 years old - so long as no one gives him a new gun, he's helpless). So, yeah, it is wrong for him to be so detained, in my opinion as well. And he's 8 years old - there are real mental and physical differences, and as the judge readily admits, the system is NOT set up for him. They have to keep him in solitary, to try to minimize the harm to him, because they have no place for him.


Or home confinement. That is what has happened in a number of juvenile cases.

[Details]

He may well have recanted to Mr. Brewer or Mr. Wood. No one else is allowed to talk about the case to him.
Bet his Mom knows, though.And they, of course, all have gag orders - they cannot talk about the evidence exonerating him if they had any. They cannot talk about what he says. The police/DA/prosecutor cannot too - but they did pop that confession video - that never should have been released - out.

[Details]

Or home confinement. That is what has happened in a number of juvenile cases.One similar one posted here, the judge sent them home, with modified home detention ankle bracelets. Satisfies the need to monitor the location, keep him effectively in custody, as well as not harming a child by locking him so young into such an inappropriate environment.

[Hawk]

But only a little bit. IIRC, in questioning the officer collecting the child's clothing, Brewer asked if the officer noticed anything on the clothing. The officer said she didn't.

Yes, and isn't that odd. Even a small amount of dried blood is easily detectable. Maybe, like his shoes, the pants were just too dirty. Or perhaps the detective wasn't trained to look for such things on a suspects clothing.
She sure wasn't trained on how to question a child.

[Hawk]

And they, of course, all have gag orders - they cannot talk about the evidence exonerating him if they had any. They cannot talk about what he says. The police/DA/prosecutor cannot too - but they did pop that confession video - that never should have been released - out.

Why did they release that video right out of the gate? It's perplexing.

[muska]

Normally, even someone charged with homicide is granted bail. Unless they're a flight risk (obviously this boy can go nowhere on his own), or there's reason to believe they'll kill others (8 years old - so long as no one gives him a new gun, he's helpless). So, yeah, it is wrong for him to be so detained, in my opinion as well. And he's 8 years old - there are real mental and physical differences, and as the judge readily admits, the system is NOT set up for him. They have to keep him in solitary, to try to minimize the harm to him, because they have no place for him.

The judge can't think he's a danger as he was willing to release him for a second time. On the other hand, solitary confinement is a definite risk for the boy. If you look it up, you'll find that it often causes mental health problems. We can only imagine what it's doing to this boy considering all he's been through.

[bkwits]

One similar one posted here, the judge sent them home, with modified home detention ankle bracelets. Satisfies the need to monitor the location, keep him effectively in custody, as well as not harming a child by locking him so young into such an inappropriate environment.

Yeah, I think you are referring to the 7 and 8 year olds charged with killing 11 y o Ryan Harris with a brick.

It was a totally bogus case, where LE worked on them separately and got false confessions. (Without an adult present for either one)

They were released to their parents wearing modified ankle bracelets.

The girl had been raped and murdered. Floyd Durr, a serial rapist was later convicted by DNA.

[Kara]

I<snipped>
Also, if this boy is truly innocent, then what we have here is what I call the OJ factor -- many different people from many different places would have to be conspiring against this boy. His grandparents, the interviewing POs, the DA, the witnesses who said they heard the gunfire at 5:00 (police were called at 5:06, from what I recall), the witnesses who said the boy went straight home and didn't wander the neighborhood, Tanya...etc. I do not buy conspiracies of that magnitude. I never have.
Wait a minute...the OJ factor? Are you suggesting that OJ was innocent and he's the victim of a conspiracy? And that this boy is also the victim of a conspiracy if he's innocent of the charges?

????????????

[Details]

Why did they release that video right out of the gate? It's perplexing.IMO, PR. To justify charging so young a child. To pollute the jury pool. To try to appear like they're doing well to have found such a murderous killer hidden in the body of a child.

For no good motive, IOW.

[bkwits]

IMO, PR. To justify charging so young a child. To pollute the jury pool. To try to appear like they're doing well to have found such a murderous killer hidden in the body of a child.

For no good motive, IOW.

You said it, and you said it well. :thumbsup:

[Details]

Wait a minute...the OJ factor? Are you suggesting that OJ was innocent and he's the victim of a conspiracy? And that this boy is also the victim of a conspiracy if he's innocent of the charges?

????????????I think it's kinda the opposite - OJ supporters suggested he was innocent due to a huge conspiracy. The poster appears to be suggesting that we're saying there's a huge conspiracy against this boy, and thus we're on the same side as those who saw OJ innocent due to a huge conspiracy, not patschican.

However, since we don't see some huge conspiracy going, it's not a good analogy. And IIRC, pretty much everyone posting here thinking the boy is more likely innocent than not, and having civil rights issues - are the same people who tend to go for the G side, none of us that I am aware of are OJ is innocent types, not for any of his trials.

[Hawk]

IMO, PR. To justify charging so young a child. To pollute the jury pool. To try to appear like they're doing well to have found such a murderous killer hidden in the body of a child.

For no good motive, IOW.

Doesn't the release show the absolute incompetence of St Johns PD and the Apache County Attorney. Who ever heard of such a thing. Maybe the video was to pacify the locals. Or perhaps to bring national attention to the cops and county attorney. If the latter is the case they made a major blunder. They've made themselves look foolish in the eyes of the world. I believe I'd leave this case off my resume if I was any of them. Especially the chief.

[Kara]

I think it's kinda the opposite - OJ supporters suggested he was innocent due to a huge conspiracy. The poster appears to be suggesting that we're saying there's a huge conspiracy against this boy, and thus we're on the same side as those who saw OJ innocent due to a huge conspiracy, not patschican.

However, since we don't see some huge conspiracy going, it's not a good analogy. And IIRC, pretty much everyone posting here thinking the boy is more likely innocent than not, and having civil rights issues - are the same people who tend to go for the G side, none of us that I am aware of are OJ is innocent types, not for any of his trials.
Maybe I'll have to re-read in the morning with a fresh brain...cuz my sleepy brain ain't seeing it that way.... :shrug:

[muska]

Why did they release that video right out of the gate? It's perplexing.

Maybe they knew that it would never be admissable in court and they wanted to make sure they got it out there. They used it to get public opinion on their side.

Since they released the 8-year-olds tape, maybe they should release all the other tapes...Tiffany,Tanya,Grandma,Grandpa,Candy,Curly. ...oh wait, that would probably violate the adults' rights.

[Hawk]

Maybe they knew that it would never be admissable in court and they wanted to make sure they got it out there. They used it to get public opinion on their side.

Since they released the 8-year-olds tape, maybe they should release all the other tapes...Tiffany,Tanya,Grandma,Grandpa,Candy,Curly. ...oh wait, that would probably violate the adults' rights.

I'm with you. I'd like to hear more about Mr. Curly.

I believe the public opinion aspect backfired on them. If they knew what the vast majority of those following this case thinks of them they might be embarrassed.

[Justice_Dawg]

Although I never seriously suspected Tanya, I am starting to now after I found out that she directly said that the boy is lying.

Where is that? I missed it. TIA

[IAMME]

Where is that? I missed it. TIA

Brewer says it in the motion to suppress.

[muska]

He sure didn't. He said he threw the rifle in the closet. Now why would he lie about where he put the murder weapon after confessing to two killings. If you're going to believe his confession don't you have to believe all of it?

About that rifle...it looks, in the picture, as if it were placed there carefully, not just tossed down in a hurry. I mean it looks like it was put there the day before or whenever. Do we know if those pictures show the way the police found it or whether they had moved it? I know it was found on top of the dog cage but I wonder if it was found just like that.

[PensiveOne]

I'm confused; if he hasn't been officially charged then his attorney can submit a writ of habeas corpus and have him released. Why hasn't he?

Other thoughts that make me still suspect the boy:

If Tim's blood trail heading toward the house is indicative of him running away from his attacker, then the bullets would have come from behind, which is pretty easy to determine in an autopsy. If the wounds are still from the front, I think it supports the notion of a child shooting at him, because one might think that one could overpower a child before being wounded too badly. I know I would...if a child was shooting at me, I think my impulse would be to run toward the child in the hopes of knocking the gun away from him before I was too seriously wounded. An adult however...I would try to run the other way, or hide behind something.

Also, if this boy is truly innocent, then what we have here is what I call the OJ factor -- many different people from many different places would have to be conspiring against this boy. His grandparents, the interviewing POs, the DA, the witnesses who said they heard the gunfire at 5:00 (police were called at 5:06, from what I recall), the witnesses who said the boy went straight home and didn't wander the neighborhood, Tanya...etc. I do not buy conspiracies of that magnitude. I never have.

The bolded part I have heard from another poster. That is not true...there were no witnesses that said he went straight home. There is only Tanya's testimony. We don't know what his family thinks. They aren't talking. At least I haven't seen any of them make any direct statements since they arrested him.

[PensiveOne]

Maybe they knew that it would never be admissable in court and they wanted to make sure they got it out there. They used it to get public opinion on their side.

Since they released the 8-year-olds tape, maybe they should release all the other tapes...Tiffany,Tanya,Grandma,Grandpa,Candy,Curly. ...oh wait, that would probably violate the adults' rights.

ITA. I would love to hear all of those statements.:thumbup:

[Hawk]

About that rifle...it looks, in the picture, as if it were placed there carefully, not just tossed down in a hurry. I mean it looks like it was put there the day before or whenever. Do we know if those pictures show the way the police found it or whether they had moved it? I know it was found on top of the dog cage but I wonder if it was found just like that.

I don't know. LE says it was on the dog cage, but the child says he "tossed it in a closet".

One of the photos looks odd. It appears to magically be sticking to the side of the cage while the cage is turned on it's side. Does it look that way to anyone else? Also, in that photo the bolt is engaged in the forward position, where in the other photo of the weapon the bolt is open with a live cartridge visible.

[Justice_Dawg]

About that rifle...it looks, in the picture, as if it were placed there carefully, not just tossed down in a hurry. I mean it looks like it was put there the day before or whenever. Do we know if those pictures show the way the police found it or whether they had moved it? I know it was found on top of the dog cage but I wonder if it was found just like that.

The boy was set up. That is why I can't tie Tanya to it.

Unless Big John went to visit Tim a lot.

The boy told LE he would play with an air gun but got in trouble if his dad found out. He surely didn't have the chipmunk on top of the cage. IF he did commit the crime, he'd have thrown it in the closet, like he said.

[Hawk]

ITA. I would love to hear all of those statements.:thumbup:

There was some trouble between Mr. Romans and Mr. Curley. Mr. Brewer touched on it during a hearing. Romans was an Apache and Curley is a Navajo. Is there a natural animosity between the two tribes?

[Justice_Dawg]

Brewer says it in the motion to suppress.

TY!

A birdy told me that the boys family is behind him now.

[Hawk]

The boy was set up. That is why I can't tie Tanya to it.

Unless Big John went to visit Tim a lot.

The boy told LE he would play with an air gun but got in trouble if his dad found out. He surely didn't have the chipmunk on top of the cage. IF he did commit the crime, he'd have thrown it in the closet, like he said.

There you go! How can you pick and chose what is true. If you believe the boy shot these men, then you gotta believe he threw that rifle in the closet. (That's probably where his dad told him to store it and even though his dad was dead the instruction stuck with the boy. That in itself should tell us something about the lad.)

[muska]

I don't know. LE says it was on the dog cage, but the child says he "tossed it in a closet".

One of the photos looks odd. It appears to magically be sticking to the side of the cage while the cage is turned on it's side. Does it look that way to anyone else? Also, in that photo the bolt is engaged in the forward position, where in the other photo of the weapon the bolt is open with a live cartridge visible.

I just thought that if it was found there so neatly placed, it would be additional evidence against the idea that someone used it and then tossed it down in a hurry.

When the interrogator asked him for the second time if he was sure that the rifle was in the closet, he still insisted it was. There was no reason to lie at that point.

[PensiveOne]

There was some trouble between Mr. Romans and Mr. Curley. Mr. Brewer touched on it during a hearing. Romans was an Apache and Curley is a Navajo. Is there a natural animosity between the two tribes?

Well, I am sure no expert on it...I know the Navajo is the largest tribe and that they have land disputes with the Hopi and the Apache, but how much of a problem that is I don't know. Interesting question though!

[Crispy]

Thank you. I did remember he did change his mind. Did it say why he decided not to use Juliano?

imoo

It doesn't say specifically why he chose not to use Juliano. It does say something about that particular person(Dr. Cady) not having all of the boys background information.

The prosecution was the one that had an expert decline to take the case IIRC.

[Hawk]

I just thought that if it was found there so neatly placed, it would be additional evidence against the idea that someone used it and then tossed it down in a hurry.

When the interrogator asked him for the second time if he was sure that the rifle was in the closet, he still insisted it was. There was no reason to lie at that point.

Now we're getting somewhere.

[Justice_Dawg]

There was some trouble between Mr. Romans and Mr. Curley. Mr. Brewer touched on it during a hearing. Romans was an Apache and Curley is a Navajo. Is there a natural animosity between the two tribes?

CHINLE, Nov. 6, 2008

I f there weren't already a Navajo County, Apache County may have had to change its name.



http://navajotimes.com/news/2008/1108/110608apacheco.php

[GentleBreeze]

Normally, even someone charged with homicide is granted bail. Unless they're a flight risk (obviously this boy can go nowhere on his own), or there's reason to believe they'll kill others (8 years old - so long as no one gives him a new gun, he's helpless). So, yeah, it is wrong for him to be so detained, in my opinion as well. And he's 8 years old - there are real mental and physical differences, and as the judge readily admits, the system is NOT set up for him. They have to keep him in solitary, to try to minimize the harm to him, because they have no place for him.

I have read about defendants that may have murdered one, getting bail but I can't remember a case where someone was charged with double homicide getting bail.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

There you go! How can you pick and chose what is true. If you believe the boy shot these men, then you gotta believe he threw that rifle in the closet. (That's probably where his dad told him to store it and even though his dad was dead the instruction stuck with the boy. That in itself should tell us something about the lad.)

Since he mentioned the closet....I wonder if there was a coat closet at the foot of the stairs on the first level.

It will also be interesting to learn if that is perhaps where the shooter stood when the first shots were fired into VR that were coming from behind him as he climbed the stairs.

imoo

[bkwits]

Where is that? I missed it. TIA

The Motion To Suppress filed today
bottom of page I - tope of page 2

[Hawk]

CHINLE, Nov. 6, 2008

I f there weren't already a Navajo County, Apache County may have had to change its name.



http://navajotimes.com/news/2008/1108/110608apacheco.php

I'm certainly no expert (on this, or anything else), but the few First Americans I've known take a slight, or an insult, very seriously. Add natural competition (for lack of a better word) and you could have a real problem. Real quick.

[GentleBreeze]

The bolded part I have heard from another poster. That is not true...there were no witnesses that said he went straight home. There is only Tanya's testimony. We don't know what his family thinks. They aren't talking. At least I haven't seen any of them make any direct statements since they arrested him.

I am not sure that any of us can say for sure there are no witnesses. There very well may be but that has not been revealed yet.

His grandparents have given statements to LE.

imoo

[PensiveOne]

I have read about defendants that may have murdered one, getting bail but I can't remember a case where someone was charged with double homicide getting bail.

imoo

The only one that comes to mind is Dr. Jeff MacDonald. Do you remember that case?

[Hawk]

Since he mentioned the closet....I wonder if there was a coat closet at the foot of the stairs on the first level.

It will also be interesting to learn if that is perhaps where the shooter stood when the first shots were fired into VR that were coming from behind him as he climbed the stairs.

imoo

I believe it was the master bedroom closet. But I could be wrong. I think the boy said he went upstairs to get it.

[Justice_Dawg]

I have read about defendants that may have murdered one, getting bail but I can't remember a case where someone was charged with double homicide getting bail.

imoo

Need a refresh?

Judge sets bail at $6 million in double-homicide case
Steve Van Keuren, charged with killing his ex-girlfriend and her boyfriend, faces unusually steep bail.
http://www.startribune.com/local/11555841.html

Updated: $5M Bail Set for Double Homicide Suspect
Lincoln, Neb.
Posted: 3:35 PM Aug 13, 2008
Bail has been set at $5 million for a man who also is suspected in the slayings of a rural Lancaster County couple

http://www.kolnkgin.com/home/headlines/26926544.html

By ALTHEA PETERSON World Staff Writer
Published: 11/17/2008
Less than one week after a Tulsa County judge set bail on a man held on two counts of first degree murder, a friend of one of the victims protested the decision Monday morning.


http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=16&articleid=20081117_298_hr050822

[muska]

The boy was set up. That is why I can't tie Tanya to it.

Unless Big John went to visit Tim a lot.

The boy told LE he would play with an air gun but got in trouble if his dad found out. He surely didn't have the chipmunk on top of the cage. IF he did commit the crime, he'd have thrown it in the closet, like he said.

They weren't very careful with their things; I can imagine them leaving the rifle just sitting there. Don't you think?

[Hawk]

I am not sure that any of us can say for sure there are no witnesses. There very well may be but that has not been revealed yet.

His grandparents have given statements to LE.

imoo

If there was an eye witness the County Attorney would certainly have let the world know. Probably hold a news conference on CNN, gag order or not. The gag order hasn't stopped him thus far.

[Pag Boi]

I'm confused; if he hasn't been officially charged then his attorney can submit a writ of habeas corpus and have him released. Why hasn't he?

Other thoughts that make me still suspect the boy:

If Tim's blood trail heading toward the house is indicative of him running away from his attacker, then the bullets would have come from behind, which is pretty easy to determine in an autopsy. If the wounds are still from the front, I think it supports the notion of a child shooting at him, because one might think that one could overpower a child before being wounded too badly. I know I would...if a child was shooting at me, I think my impulse would be to run toward the child in the hopes of knocking the gun away from him before I was too seriously wounded. An adult however...I would try to run the other way, or hide behind something.

Also, if this boy is truly innocent, then what we have here is what I call the OJ factor -- many different people from many different places would have to be conspiring against this boy. His grandparents, the interviewing POs, the DA, the witnesses who said they heard the gunfire at 5:00 (police were called at 5:06, from what I recall), the witnesses who said the boy went straight home and didn't wander the neighborhood, Tanya...etc. I do not buy conspiracies of that magnitude. I never have.


If you have read all the links as you suggested others do, you would know the kid has no safe place to go :read: "The court will find in the interests of the minor and the pubic require custodial protection." Mr. Brewer: "That's correct judge."

Your OJ factor? I don't understand it or how it relates to this case. There was a conspiracy to frame OJ? Who is claiming a conspiracy of any magnitude in THIS CASE? TIA. Point it out or quit posting it. I see a lot of incompetence. It only takes one ring leader. Then others will blindly follow. Not saying that you are. I am sure you have given great consideration to both sides of this story. ;)



You accept an 8yo's snipped video confessing to his father's murder and all the various changes others claim he made to his story "telling." I find it far more interesting what they are NOT telling.

You don't mind what all the LEOs said that contradict/conflict? You expect an 8yo to be a better witness than trained officials? You can excuse all their mistakes and inconsistent statements?

The DA wants to submit the confession DVD into evidence even tho the defense hasn't had a chance to view it. Yet in next breathe, Carolyn wants advance notice if the defense finds new evidence not presented in court, and a safe place for the minor to be released to -- so he knows he is attending a release hearing instead of a pretrial hearing. Classic!



It's LE testifying that the gunshot would be muffled from the inside. It's LE saying they know entrance from exit wounds. It's LE saying that the victims each had abt 5 shots. It's LE saying the gunfire was from the outside in. It's LE saying the trail of Tim's blood showed him running away from the gunfire. It's LE saying there is one spot on the porch where someone COULD'VE had a shot that fits the crime.

It might all work for you to follow this crime scene in the limited scope of what one side claims/contradicts. But I am much more concerned about the contradictions of LE than an 8yo. I don't see any conclusive evidence that this child did it; especially in light of LE claiming to have strong FE that proves he did it but still had no results back to prove their statements.

Have you read LE's testimony on their first encounter w/Tanya? OMG. 2 Sergeants w/+10 years. LE never bothered to interview them first and rule them out. They let Tanya tell them. The LEO accounts of TR are very different. Shouldn't a homicide detective rule out family first? What did Tanya (or anyone else) have to gain from Tim's death? I know what the child had to gain..

Family and others was being fed the same info you were according to the docs. LE told the publicthey had overwhelming evidence. You choose to believe them on their word. Without any proof of their statements.

His mother doesn't believe her child did it. You know that his mother is part of his family, right? She is not alone in her belief that this child is innocent.



All above is JMOO and I accept yours is very different.

[Justice_Dawg]

They weren't very careful with their things; I can imagine them leaving the rifle just sitting there. Don't you think?

Well, I can tell you I would never live like that. But to each his own.

Remember Brewers interview with Neckels? Neckles said she asked Tiffany why bullets were all over the floor upstairs. Tiffany said something like ..He just kind of left them around.
I am going to go look.

[IAMME]

They weren't very careful with their things; I can imagine them leaving the rifle just sitting there. Don't you think?


ITA!! The boy says in the video that his stepmother had him carry the guns upstairs and put them away, he says something to the effect of bc his dad doesnt know how to pick up after hisself, which I am sure is something he heard his stepmother say ALOT if that is how the house looked all the time.

The gun could have been on the carrier for days for all we know.

[Hawk]

They weren't very careful with their things; I can imagine them leaving the rifle just sitting there. Don't you think?

The boy said he put it in the closet. Why would he lie after confessing to the murders?

But the lingering question remains. Why did he shoot Mr. Romans? Unless his original story is true.

[PensiveOne]

I am not sure that any of us can say for sure there are no witnesses. There very well may be but that has not been revealed yet.

His grandparents have given statements to LE.

imoo

If there were witnesses we don't know about them. I wonder if his grandparents have seen the "confession" video since they made their statements. They might "think" something different now if they have seen it. I said I haven't heard them make any statements since his arrest. JMO.

[bkwits]

Since he mentioned the closet....I wonder if there was a coat closet at the foot of the stairs on the first level.

It will also be interesting to learn if that is perhaps where the shooter stood when the first shots were fired into VR that were coming from behind him as he climbed the stairs.

imoo

The shooter couldn't have shot VR from the first floor. Check the stairs. There is a landing there.

[Justice_Dawg]

They weren't very careful with their things; I can imagine them leaving the rifle just sitting there. Don't you think?
Found it!
---------
BB: And then the, um, in the searches that were conducted there was never, an unspent round found, right? On the ground?
DN: Right. Right.
BB: And I guess this, this information…
DN: I should, actually, clarify that, in, the locations of the body, there weren’t. There’re rounds all, in that house, upstairs, there, there are, um, there’s just bullets, spilled everywhere.
CC: What size?
DN: Um, the, the ones I saw were larger calibers, that’s one ‘a the things I needed Tiffany to explain ta me. You know, and she says, oh, yeah, Vince was always, these things were, ya know, uh, he had bullets everywhere. He’s constantly dropping em, so, but there were none in the path of, the shooting. There were, no, unspent rounds, that we found.
:glare:

-----Dad drops them ALL OVER. The boy is an expert with a tiny hand. Good Lord!

[Hawk]

Found it!
---------
BB: And then the, um, in the searches that were conducted there was never, an unspent round found, right? On the ground?
DN: Right. Right.
BB: And I guess this, this information…
DN: I should, actually, clarify that, in, the locations of the body, there weren’t. There’re rounds all, in that house, upstairs, there, there are, um, there’s just bullets, spilled everywhere.
CC: What size?
DN: Um, the, the ones I saw were larger calibers, that’s one ‘a the things I needed Tiffany to explain ta me. You know, and she says, oh, yeah, Vince was always, these things were, ya know, uh, he had bullets everywhere. He’s constantly dropping em, so, but there were none in the path of, the shooting. There were, no, unspent rounds, that we found.
:glare:

-----Dad drops them ALL OVER. The boy is an expert with a tiny hand. Good Lord!

Good point. The single shot bolt action rifle is a clumsy gun compared to other models.
It's to the point of being goofy to suggest this boy could physically do what he is charged with.

[Justice_Dawg]

good point. The single shot bolt action rifle is a clumsy gun compared to other models.
It's to the point of being goofy to suggest this boy could physically do what he is charged with.

ita!!!!!!!

[muska]

Someone posting at channel 3 said that Tim and Vincent were on there way to help someone with some cabinets and they just stopped home unexpectedly for a minute. If true, they may have surprised an intruder.

[JD1974]

Found it!
---------
BB: And then the, um, in the searches that were conducted there was never, an unspent round found, right? On the ground?
DN: Right. Right.
BB: And I guess this, this information…
DN: I should, actually, clarify that, in, the locations of the body, there weren’t. There’re rounds all, in that house, upstairs, there, there are, um, there’s just bullets, spilled everywhere.
CC: What size?
DN: Um, the, the ones I saw were larger calibers, that’s one ‘a the things I needed Tiffany to explain ta me. You know, and she says, oh, yeah, Vince was always, these things were, ya know, uh, he had bullets everywhere. He’s constantly dropping em, so, but there were none in the path of, the shooting. There were, no, unspent rounds, that we found.
:glare:

-----Dad drops them ALL OVER. The boy is an expert with a tiny hand. Good Lord!

Guns and bullets laying all over the house...wow, safe area for kids! Tell me again how Vincent recieved custody? Reminds me of the, what goes on in this house stays in this house. What lazy sods anyway, she sees him leaving bullets all around ( he obviously wasn't going to pick them up) and she didn't pick them up? Seems no adult in that house did any picking up of anything.

[PensiveOne]

Found it!
---------
BB: And then the, um, in the searches that were conducted there was never, an unspent round found, right? On the ground?
DN: Right. Right.
BB: And I guess this, this information…
DN: I should, actually, clarify that, in, the locations of the body, there weren’t. There’re rounds all, in that house, upstairs, there, there are, um, there’s just bullets, spilled everywhere.
CC: What size?
DN: Um, the, the ones I saw were larger calibers, that’s one ‘a the things I needed Tiffany to explain ta me. You know, and she says, oh, yeah, Vince was always, these things were, ya know, uh, he had bullets everywhere. He’s constantly dropping em, so, but there were none in the path of, the shooting. There were, no, unspent rounds, that we found.
:glare:

-----Dad drops them ALL OVER. The boy is an expert with a tiny hand. Good Lord!

I just can't believe how they were so irresponsible about the guns and ammunition. Unbelievable.

I also think that if I was a kid and I came home and found my dad and the boarder dead I would run upstairs and get my gun, too. I would be scared to death. Don't you think that would be a normal response? They had no lan line phone in the house and his cell phone was for them to call him and it could have had a dead battery. There are a lot of reasons why he ran to a neighbor's house that night. He could have just laid it down when he got to the door and then ran for his life.

[Justice_Dawg]

I just thought of something....

Carlyon and Candelaria say the ballistics/forensics won't be back until the end of January.

How convenient, they won't even be in office anymore.

[Justice_Dawg]

Someone posting at channel 3 said that Tim and Vincent were on there way to help someone with some cabinets and they just stopped home unexpectedly for a minute. If true, they may have surprised an intruder.

I have thought of that, but Tiffany was due home and the boy was usually there... I Think. LOL

[Hawk]

Guns and bullets laying all over the house...wow, safe area for kids! Tell me again how Vincent recieved custody? Reminds me of the, what goes on in this house stays in this house. What lazy sods anyway, she sees him leaving bullets all around ( he obviously wasn't going to pick them up) and she didn't pick them up? Seems no adult in that house did any picking up of anything.

Even if Mr. and Mrs. Romero aren't guilty of abuse, and I can't say they are or not, they certainly are guilty of neglect.

8 year old home alone.
Filthy home.
Easy access to firearms and ammo.

[Hawk]

I have thought of that, but Tiffany was due home and the boy was usually there... I Think. LOL

I think their shift at the power plant ended at 4:20pm every day.
Sorry, I don't have a link. It may be in the transcript of the first hearing.

[Justice_Dawg]

Guns and bullets laying all over the house...wow, safe area for kids! Tell me again how Vincent recieved custody? Reminds me of the, what goes on in this house stays in this house. What lazy sods anyway, she sees him leaving bullets all around ( he obviously wasn't going to pick them up) and she didn't pick them up? Seems no adult in that house did any picking up of anything.

Well between smoke and bullets/guns, I'd have chosen smoke in the ear.

They left this child alone in that train wreck of a home for 2 hrs 2 days a week, Maybe more...

[bkwits]

I just can't believe how they were so irresponsible about the guns and ammunition. Unbelievable.

I also think that if I was a kid and I came home and found my dad and the boarder dead I would run upstairs and get my gun, too. I would be scared to death. Don't you think that would be a normal response? They had no lan line phone in the house and his cell phone was for them to call him and it could have had a dead battery. There are a lot of reasons why he ran to a neighbor's house that night. He could have just laid it down when he got to the door and then ran for his life.

The fact of the boy running to the neighbors and to tell someone, to get adult help, is one major arrow pointing to the child's innocence, IMO.

That is exactly what I would do, as an adult. I would not stay in that house with two dead bodies and make phone calls. I would run to my friends next door.

IMO

[Justice_Dawg]

Even if Mr. and Mrs. Romero aren't guilty of abuse, and I can't say they are or not, they certainly are guilty of neglect.

8 year old home alone.
Filthy home.
Easy access to firearms and ammo.

Do we share a brain?

:lol::thumbsup::lol:

[PensiveOne]

Someone posting at channel 3 said that Tim and Vincent were on there way to help someone with some cabinets and they just stopped home unexpectedly for a minute. If true, they may have surprised an intruder.

Just stopping by to get something? Why was she stopping at the store then? She had talked to him so she knew he wasn't going to be home for supper? Didn't either one of them care that the boy was home alone? I just don't understand that kind of parenting. JMO.

[Hawk]

Do we share a brain?

:lol::thumbsup::lol:

If we do you must have most of it. Mine is old, worn, and tiny.

[Justice_Dawg]

I think their shift at the power plant ended at 4:20pm every day.
Sorry, I don't have a link. It may be in the transcript of the first hearing.

Yes, and it (LE) said they usually got home around 5pm. It has to be about a 40 min. drive I guess.

[bkwits]

Well between smoke and bullets/guns, I'd have chosen smoke in the ear.

They left this child alone in that train wreck of a home for 2 hrs 2 days a week, Maybe more...


Vincent said he didn't want his son to be afraid of guns. It seems like a little healthy fear would have been good. IMO

[Hawk]

Just stopping by to get something? Why was she stopping at the store then? She had talked to him so she knew he wasn't going to be home for supper? Didn't either one of them care that the boy was home alone? I just don't understand that kind of parenting. JMO.

Well, they do live out in the country, so to speak, in the middle of the meth capitol of eastern Arizona.

[Justice_Dawg]

Vincent said he didn't want his son to be afraid of guns. It seems like a little healthy fear would have been good. IMO
ITA!
Healthy would have been a nice big gun cabinet with all guns and ammo locked up as a rule, only to be taken out when going hunting ect WITH an adult.

[Hawk]

In my state not securing guns is against the law. LE can charge you with child endangerment if you leave them around where a minor can easily get to them. Guess Arizona doesn't have such laws.

[Justice_Dawg]

Just stopping by to get something? Why was she stopping at the store then? She had talked to him so she knew he wasn't going to be home for supper? Didn't either one of them care that the boy was home alone? I just don't understand that kind of parenting. JMO.

Parenting?

Tiffany was out at parties and her husband hadn't been dead a month. You better believe the defense got that link from me. :tonguewag:

[PensiveOne]

Parenting?

Tiffany was out at parties and her husband hadn't been dead a month. You better believe the defense got that link from me. :tonguewag:

So many questions and so few answers right now. It is very frustrating. I hope somebody is looking into the rest of these people's whereabouts.:angry: I am glad you sent them the link!

[bkwits]

In my state not securing guns is against the law. LE can charge you with child endangerment if you leave them around where a minor can easily get to them. Guess Arizona doesn't have such laws.

We discussed that here some time ago. I think Arizona does have such laws, but i can't remember for sure. I doubt these people would have taken much heed of those laws, if they exist. IMO

[Hawk]

Parenting?

Tiffany was out at parties and her husband hadn't been dead a month. You better believe the defense got that link from me. :tonguewag:

Yes. At first I wasn't sure that was Tiffany Romero on that site. (The name is not unusual in that part of the country).
She looked a bit different than in her wedding photos. But then there is the picture of her at work. No doubt the same person. Plus in the link you gave you can see a boxer puppy with a collar that has Nellie on it.

[IAMME]

In my state not securing guns is against the law. LE can charge you with child endangerment if you leave them around where a minor can easily get to them. Guess Arizona doesn't have such laws.

No but there ARE loopholes!!:thumbup: For instance a juvenile is considered delinquent if they are in possesion of a gun without a parent or gaurdian present, and it is illegal to contribute to the delinquency of a minor....technically they could file charges, and should IMO.

It is also illegal to endanger a minor either intentionally or unintentionally, and if you read all the abuse/neglect laws, it is AMAZING to me that Tiffany Romero has not been charged, not to mention the grandparents, apparently EVERYONE in Arizona is a mandatory reporter, not just teachers, nurses, doctors, ect.....

[Crispy]

We discussed that here some time ago. I think Arizona does have such laws, but i can't remember for sure. I doubt these people would have taken much heed of those laws, if they exist. IMO

Arizona does not have those laws.:mad:

http://crime.about.com/od/gunlawsbystate/p/gunlaws_az.htm

[Justice_Dawg]

Yes. At first I wasn't sure that was Tiffany Romero on that site. (The name is not unusual in that part of the country).
She looked a bit different than in her wedding photos. But then there is the picture of her at work. No doubt the same person. Plus in the link you gave you can see a boxer puppy with a collar that has Nellie on it.

Now you know why the boy wants Nellie. :wink:

[Hawk]

We discussed that here some time ago. I think Arizona does have such laws, but i can't remember for sure. I doubt these people would have taken much heed of those laws, if they exist. IMO

Maybe not, but someone could be brought up on charges. Last week here near my home town a 12 year old boy got a Glock 9mm pistol out of his grandmothers car console and accidentally shot his 9 year old brother while playing. The grandmother is charged with endangerment. The 12 year old was not charged with anything. Just as it should be. Thank God the 9 year old will survive.

[Pag Boi]

Found it!
---------
BB: And then the, um, in the searches that were conducted there was never, an unspent round found, right? On the ground?
DN: Right. Right.
BB: And I guess this, this information…
DN: I should, actually, clarify that, in, the locations of the body, there weren’t. There’re rounds all, in that house, upstairs, there, there are, um, there’s just bullets, spilled everywhere.
CC: What size?
DN: Um, the, the ones I saw were larger calibers, that’s one ‘a the things I needed Tiffany to explain ta me. You know, and she says, oh, yeah, Vince was always, these things were, ya know, uh, he had bullets everywhere. He’s constantly dropping em, so, but there were none in the path of, the shooting. There were, no, unspent rounds, that we found.
:glare:

-----Dad drops them ALL OVER. The boy is an expert with a tiny hand. Good Lord!

Wasn't there also testimony that a box of bullets on a stand downstairs? The officer didn't know how many were in box? WTH? Shouldn't that have been one of the strong FE discoveries made at the scene?


Did this child just happened to know it would take 6 bullets to kill Tim, shot him from front and behind. He just left the bullet box on the stand downstairs and either gently placed it above the dog pen or threw it in the closet upstairs?

This lil fella is a real life action figure/terrorist in training if he can premeditate a murder.

Yet he had the mindset, according to various testimony, to be: upstairs, downstairs, inside, outside, on the porch and under the table checking his dad's pulse by kicking his foot. All while reloading, crying, calling Tim to help and rushing to the neigbor's house.

7yo sharpshooters that win turkeys in contests or feed their dog the lunch they told Mommy they ate merely pale in comparison to this kid's alleged abilities. Ouch! JMOO

[muska]

There is also someone who posts at channel 3 and claims to be Tanya's sister. She seems like a sincere person, who knows? One interesting thing... she says she doesn't trust the St Johns police dept and that they treated Tanya very poorly. I wonder what that would be all about.

Oh, if she really is Tanya's sister she has more compassion than some on this board as she also said she wouldn't object to the boy's release and that she prays for his family.

[bkwits]

Maybe not, but someone could be brought up on charges. Last week here near my home town a 12 year old boy got a Glock 9mm pistol out of his grandmothers car console and accidentally shot his 9 year old brother while playing. The grandmother is charged with endangerment. The 12 year old was not charged with anything. Just as it should be. Thank God the 9 year old will survive.

OH SURE, some of the NRA types on the forum objected to having to lock up guns and ammo. I don't why that is. It's not that I'm completely against owning guns. But I am for responsible gun ownership.

IMO

[Justice_Dawg]

Wasn't there also testimony that a box of bullets on a stand downstairs? The officer didn't know how many were in box? WTH? Shouldn't that have been one of the strong FE discoveries made at the scene?


Did this child just happened to know it would take 6 bullets to kill Tim, shot him from front and behind. He just left the bullet box on the stand downstairs and either gently placed it above the dog pen or threw it in the closet upstairs?

This lil fella is a real life action figure/terrorist in training if he can premeditate a murder.

Yet he had the mindset, according to various testimony, to be: upstairs, downstairs, inside, outside, on the porch and under the table checking his dad's pulse by kicking his foot. All while reloading, crying, calling Tim to help and rushing to the neigbor's house.

7yo sharpshooters that win turkeys in contests or feed their dog the lunch they told Mommy they ate merely pale in comparison to this kid's alleged abilities. Ouch! JMOO

The Mossburg Plinkster .22 with the 10 round magazine is looking pretty good here, isn't it?

[Hawk]

There is also someone who posts at channel 3 and claims to be Tanya's sister. She seems like a sincere person, who knows? One interesting thing... she says she doesn't trust the St Johns police dept and that they treated Tanya very poorly. I wonder what that would be all about.

Oh, if she really is Tanya's sister she has more compassion than some on this board as she also said she wouldn't object to the boy's release and that she prays for his family.

Do you have a link you can share?

[Justice_Dawg]

There is also someone who posts at channel 3 and claims to be Tanya's sister. She seems like a sincere person, who knows? One interesting thing... she says she doesn't trust the St Johns police dept and that they treated Tanya very poorly. I wonder what that would be all about.

Oh, if she really is Tanya's sister she has more compassion than some on this board as she also said she wouldn't object to the boy's release and that she prays for his family.

Where is channel 3? TIA! :thumbsup:

[Justice_Dawg]

Do you have a link you can share?

no, just the brain. :lol::lol::lol:

[bkwits]

no, just the brain. :lol::lol::


You startin early on the Christmas cheer?:lol:

[Crispy]

channel 3 is azfamily.com I think and she posts under faith something or other. She said that Tim was never in prison for dealing drugs. Didn't Det. Neckel(I always mess up her name) say that he had served time and wasn't there a business card for a probation officer in his wallet? TIA for any answers.

[Hawk]

OH SURE, some of the NRA types on the forum objected to having to lock up guns and ammo. I don't why that is. It's not that I'm completely against owning guns. But I am for responsible gun ownership.

IMO

I've been an NRA member for 40 years and own about 35 guns. My children, and grandchildren (ages 2 to 20) are shooters (except the 2 year old, of course). My guns are locked in cabinets. The ammo is stored in a different room under lock and key. Even though I trust my grandkids, even my eight year old grandson, who's a pretty fair shot, I'd never leave a gun where they could get to them. Curiosity and carelessness are not options when it comes to firearms.

Sorry, didn't mean to lecture.

[Justice_Dawg]

You startin early on the Christmas cheer?:lol:

LOL, my SO's son is in from San Diego. He just got back from his 3rd tour in Iraq. He has his 2 Marine recon friends here and a few other people and they are (wrecked) and cracking me up!

They have a theory that the men shot each other first. :confused:

They are all talking about how it could have went down. They ALL agree they don't think an 8yr old could ever pull it off.

[Hawk]

channel 3 is azfamily.com I think and she posts under faith something or other. She said that Tim was never in prison for dealing drugs. Didn't Det. Neckel(I always mess up her name) say that he had served time and wasn't there a business card for a probation officer in his wallet? TIA for any answers.

Yes. It's in the second questioning by Mr. Brewer.

[mabel]

Guns and bullets laying all over the house...wow, safe area for kids! Tell me again how Vincent recieved custody? Reminds me of the, what goes on in this house stays in this house. What lazy sods anyway, she sees him leaving bullets all around ( he obviously wasn't going to pick them up) and she didn't pick them up? Seems no adult in that house did any picking up of anything.

His roomer Tim had been arrested on posession of drugs in the past. I hope there were no drugs easily available. It certainly didn't seem to be the ideal situation.

[Justice_Dawg]

I've been an NRA member for 40 years and own about 35 guns. My children, and grandchildren (ages 2 to 20) are shooters (except the 2 year old, of course). My guns are locked in cabinets. The ammo is stored in a different room under lock and key. Even though I trust my grandkids, even my eight year old grandson, who's a pretty fair shot, I'd never leave a gun where they could get to them. Curiosity and carelessness are not options when it comes to firearms.

Sorry, didn't mean to lecture.YOU should have had a talk with VR.

:chicken:

[muska]

Do you have a link you can share?

www.azfamily.com/

Just type vincent romero in the search. The comments follow the most recent article. She posts under Faith23. She's been posting a while and I think she seems to mean well.

[Justice_Dawg]

JD, i haven't heard about the autopsy results. have they come back yet? if so do you have a link? THANK YOU

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/Autopsy-St-Johns-murder-victims-shot-in-the-head/gsb18gJlwkizzVprKFwW0A.cspx

Make sure you watch the video on the right too.

[bkwits]

I've been an NRA member for 40 years and own about 35 guns. My children, and grandchildren (ages 2 to 20) are shooters (except the 2 year old, of course). My guns are locked in cabinets. The ammo is stored in a different room under lock and key. Even though I trust my grandkids, even my eight year old grandson, who's a pretty fair shot, I'd never leave a gun where they could get to them. Curiosity and carelessness are not options when it comes to firearms.

Sorry, didn't mean to lecture.

That's ok. My son is a hunter. My uncle, a retired Naval officer, taught him to shoot when he was 11. My son taught my grandson son to shoot when he was about 13. I've never seen a gun in his home, but when I was last there I notice a locked gun cabinet.

My dad also has guns, in a locked cabinet.

I'm sorry if I offended you.

[Hawk]

LOL, my SO's son is in from San Diego. He just got back from his 3rd tour in Iraq. He has his 2 Marine recon friends here and a few other people and they are (wrecked) and cracking me up!

They have a theory that the men shot each other first. :confused:

They are all talking about how it could have went down. They ALL agree they don't think an 8yr old could ever pull it off.

Semper Fi! Jarheads! Thanks for serving! God bless you!
Merry Christmas! Welcome home!

One of my son-in-laws just got back a month ago.
Sounds like a pretty smart squad.

[Hawk]

That's ok. My son is a hunter. My uncle, a retired Naval officer, taught him to shoot when he was 11. My son taught my grandson son to shoot when he was about 13. I've never seen a gun in his home, but when I was last there I notice a locked gun cabinet.

My dad also has guns, in a locked cabinet.

I'm sorry if I offended you.

No offence taken. Safety first. Always.

[Justice_Dawg]

Semper Fi! Jarheads! Thanks for serving! God bless you!
Merry Christmas! Welcome home!

One of my son-in-laws just got back a month ago.
Sounds like a pretty smart squad.

They said "Thank You and Merry Christmas to you too"

----------Glad your son-in-law is back home!!!!!

My nephew, who is FBI now but went ROTC to Penn State for Law Enforcement got deployed to Iraq 2 weeks before his term was up. He has 3 more months there.

My brother, Air Force for 13 yrs now goes for his 3rd tour next month.

Full of Military around here. :thumbsup:

[Hawk]

They said "Thank You and Merry Christmas to you too"

----------Glad your son-in-law is back home!!!!!

My nephew, who is FBI now but went ROTC to Penn State for Law Enforcement got deployed to Iraq 2 weeks before his term was up. He has 3 more months there.

My brother, Air Force for 13 yrs now goes for his 3rd tour next month.

Full of Military around here. :thumbsup:

Boy, I guess. Good for you and your family. May they all be safe.

[Details]

I've never heard of any responsible or even semi-responsible parent or individual who would think the type of living situation being described here as the norm was acceptable. Bullets scattered all over, guns not secured, 8 year old boy left alone with this for hours at a time - it's so often a recipe for tragedy, a child accidentally shooting themselves or a playmate.

In this situation, to my point of view, it lead to another tragedy - creating a great situation to have the boy suspected of murder.

[bkwits]

LOL, my SO's son is in from San Diego. He just got back from his 3rd tour in Iraq. He has his 2 Marine recon friends here and a few other people and they are (wrecked) and cracking me up!

They have a theory that the men shot each other first. :confused:

They are all talking about how it could have went down. They ALL agree they don't think an 8yr old could ever pull it off.

You are lucky they are all so good natured and put up with our pseudo soap opera detective work. My family rolls their eyes when i bring up a"case".

Tell them we here at home appreciate their sacrifice. Carry on. :hat::hat:

[bkwits]

I've never heard of any responsible or even semi-responsible parent or individual who would think the type of living situation being described here as the norm was acceptable. Bullets scattered all over, guns not secured, 8 year old boy left alone with this for hours at a time - it's so often a recipe for tragedy, a child accidentally shooting themselves or a playmate.

In this situation, to my point of view, it lead to another tragedy - creating a great situation to have the boy suspected of murder.

IA, whether the child did the shooting or not, his father put him in this situation. IMO

[Hawk]

I've never heard of any responsible or even semi-responsible parent or individual who would think the type of living situation being described here as the norm was acceptable. Bullets scattered all over, guns not secured, 8 year old boy left alone with this for hours at a time - it's so often a recipe for tragedy, a child accidentally shooting themselves or a playmate.

In this situation, to my point of view, it lead to another tragedy - creating a great situation to have the boy suspected of murder.

Yes, indeed. Sad story all around.

Does anyone know when the boy is due back to detention? It would be nice if it was 6 Jan for the next hearing.

[Justice_Dawg]

http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/d/e/v/Jeffrey-L-Devall-AZ/PHOTO/0112photo.html

Jeffrey L DeVall

Daughter, Deborah Lynn DeVall
Daughter, Tiffany Ann DeVall

Deborah Devall, 22, 1828 N. First St. #1, was arrested on July 12 at 4:27 p.m. and charged with possession of dangerous drugs and possession of drug paraphernalia.

According to a Flagstaff police report, officers were dispatched to Devall's apartment regarding a 911 hang-up. When the officer arrived they noticed surveillance equipment outside the apartment and leading up to the second story of the building.

After the officer knocked on Devall's front door and received no response he went to Apartment 2 and talked with the resident, who was Devall's father. He took the officer over to his daughter's apartment and unlocked the door.

The officer reported that there was no one on the ground floor, and then went upstairs to find Devall on the floor in a room with a baby. Inside the room the officer found a propane torch, glass pipe, and a black metal box with a drug scale and methamphetamine on a table.

Devall was booked into Coconino County Jail.

http://www.azdailysun.com/articles/2003/07/14/export1652.txt

[muska]

If I miss some of you tomorrow, Merry Christmas to those of you who celebrate Christmas and Happy Holidays to everyone else. I will be praying for one little boy and hoping he has a kind, warm and happy day and that he'll be home for good with his mother very soon! I'm sure most of you will be doing the same. Good Night!

[bkwits]

If I miss some of you tomorrow, Merry Christmas to those of you who celebrate Christmas and Happy Holidays to everyone else. I will be praying for one little boy and hoping he has a kind, warm and happy day and that he'll be home for good with his mother very soon! I'm sure most of you will be doing the same. Good Night!

Merry Christmas and Good Night.

[bkwits]

http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/d/e/v/Jeffrey-L-Devall-AZ/PHOTO/0112photo.html

Jeffrey L DeVall

Daughter, Deborah Lynn DeVall
Daughter, Tiffany Ann DeVall

Deborah Devall, 22, 1828 N. First St. #1, was arrested on July 12 at 4:27 p.m. and charged with possession of dangerous drugs and possession of drug paraphernalia.

According to a Flagstaff police report, officers were dispatched to Devall's apartment regarding a 911 hang-up. When the officer arrived they noticed surveillance equipment outside the apartment and leading up to the second story of the building.

After the officer knocked on Devall's front door and received no response he went to Apartment 2 and talked with the resident, who was Devall's father. He took the officer over to his daughter's apartment and unlocked the door.

The officer reported that there was no one on the ground floor, and then went upstairs to find Devall on the floor in a room with a baby. Inside the room the officer found a propane torch, glass pipe, and a black metal box with a drug scale and methamphetamine on a table.

Devall was booked into Coconino County Jail.

http://www.azdailysun.com/articles/2003/07/14/export1652.txt

OOH, that is scary. :scared:

[Justice_Dawg]

OOH, that is scary. :scared:

Case Number: M-0341-CR-2003000388 Case Category: Criminal Case Title: ST OF AZ VS DEVALL TIFFANY A
Court: Flagstaff Municipal Judge: None Filing Date: 02/04/2003 Disposition Date: 03/10/2003

[Justice_Dawg]

We are not talking "normal family" here. Not at all. :angry:

[Pag Boi]

http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/d/e/v/Jeffrey-L-Devall-AZ/PHOTO/0112photo.html

Jeffrey L DeVall

Daughter, Deborah Lynn DeVall
Daughter, Tiffany Ann DeVall

Deborah Devall, 22, 1828 N. First St. #1, was arrested on July 12 at 4:27 p.m. and charged with possession of dangerous drugs and possession of drug paraphernalia.

According to a Flagstaff police report, officers were dispatched to Devall's apartment regarding a 911 hang-up. When the officer arrived they noticed surveillance equipment outside the apartment and leading up to the second story of the building.

After the officer knocked on Devall's front door and received no response he went to Apartment 2 and talked with the resident, who was Devall's father. He took the officer over to his daughter's apartment and unlocked the door.

The officer reported that there was no one on the ground floor, and then went upstairs to find Devall on the floor in a room with a baby. Inside the room the officer found a propane torch, glass pipe, and a black metal box with a drug scale and methamphetamine on a table.

Devall was booked into Coconino County Jail.

http://www.azdailysun.com/articles/2003/07/14/export1652.txt


Yeah but that baby knew better than to smoke that meth. That baby didn't touch the glass pipes or the meth cuz baby been warned of the dangers. That 8yo should have done just like that baby and left the guns alone. :tonguewag:

I just love your posts, JD. Esp the Mossberg one

[Justice_Dawg]

Yes, indeed. Sad story all around.

Does anyone know when the boy is due back to detention? It would be nice if it was 6 Jan for the next hearing.

At least until his birthday. 29th

http://www.azfamily.com/video/3tvextra-index.html?nvid=315986

[Justice_Dawg]

Yeah but that baby knew better than to smoke that meth. That baby didn't touch the glass pipes or the meth cuz baby been warned of the dangers. That 8yo should have done just like that baby and left the guns alone. :tonguewag:

I just love your posts, JD. Esp the Mossberg one

:lol::tonguewag:

[Justice_Dawg]

While special prosecutor Bradley Carlyon is willing to remain on the case, the county attorney-elect Michael Whiting will have to affirm Carlyon’s appointment after taking office in January.

http://www.gallupindependent.com/2008/12december/122308judgeok.html

[Crispy]

Hopefully the new guy hits the ground running and is ready to go on this case so it doesn't cause anymore delays.

[IAMME]

Does anyone have a link to Tim Romans obit? The only one i can find is a pay site.....

[Justice_Dawg]

Does anyone have a link to Tim Romans obit? The only one i can find is a pay site.....

I read that he was buried on his reservation. I don't know if reservations have obits. :confused:

[IAMME]

We are not talking "normal family" here. Not at all. :angry:

Dont forget the girl who was strip searched at school by the romero woman bc of the allegations of the romero boy...... These ppl are weird, if I was charged of a crime today, I know that you couldnt find this many suspicous incidents/people connected to me.....

[Crispy]

Check out the comment

http://www.silverbelt.com/guestbook/

In case it doesn't go to it, it's Friday November 28th

[Justice_Dawg]

Dont forget the girl who was strip searched at school by the romero woman bc of the allegations of the romero boy...... These ppl are weird, if I was charged of a crime today, I know that you couldnt find this many suspicous incidents/people connected to me.....

They are very weird.

Thank God we have no criminals in my family. Hardly even get any traffic tickets!

[IAMME]

They are very weird.

Thank God we have no criminals in my family. Hardly even get any traffic tickets!


OH Crap!!!:ohmy: I didnt know we were counting speeding tickets!!!! I have had two in two stinking months, grumble grumble grumble.....

SANTA- please bring me a radar detector!!!!!!:crying:

ps, one of them i deserved, one i did not.....look up calera oklahoma.....:rolleyes:

[Justice_Dawg]

Check out the comment

http://www.silverbelt.com/guestbook/

In case it doesn't go to it, it's Friday November 28th

Seems a lot of locals have said that about Tim on various boards. I tend to believe it.

[Justice_Dawg]

Does anyone have a link to Tim Romans obit? The only one i can find is a pay site.....

Ok found one ...somewhat...
---------------
Tim Romans, a victim of a double homicide involving an 8-year-old boy, will be buried on the San Carlos Apache Reservation in Arizona today.

Romans, 39, was killed on November 5 in a home where he was renting a room from Vincent Romero, 29. Romero was also killed.

Authorities have charged Romero's 8-year-old son with both murders. The boy allegedly confessed to the crime.

Romans leaves behind a wife and two college-aged daughters. "The girls are devastated. We just got finished picking out a casket, Tanya Romans told The Arizona Republic. "He was our sole provider."

It was not reported whether Tim Romans was a member of the San Carlos Apache Tribe. Nearly everyone who lives on the reservation is Apache.

http://indianz.com/News/2008/011899.asp

[Pag Boi]

Seems a lot of locals have said that about Tim on various boards. I tend to believe it.

JD - how long had Tim been "boarding" w/V&T? What was the rent and how the rent got paid? I think the newlyweds were very kind to share their marital home with their down-n-out friend.

[Pag Boi]

Ok found one ...somewhat...
---------------
Tim Romans, a victim of a double homicide involving an 8-year-old boy, will be buried on the San Carlos Apache Reservation in Arizona today.

Romans, 39, was killed on November 5 in a home where he was renting a room from Vincent Romero, 29. Romero was also killed.

Authorities have charged Romero's 8-year-old son with both murders. The boy allegedly confessed to the crime.

Romans leaves behind a wife and two college-aged daughters. "The girls are devastated. We just got finished picking out a casket, Tanya Romans told The Arizona Republic. "He was our sole provider."

It was not reported whether Tim Romans was a member of the San Carlos Apache Tribe. Nearly everyone who lives on the reservation is Apache.

http://indianz.com/News/2008/011899.asp


Well he was so supportive to be paying rent at VR's and provide for Tanya, his daughters and his girlfriend. Oh and his cigs and cellphone.

Why would VR take a married man into his house that he shared with his new bride and 8yo son?

[Crispy]

JD - how long had Tim been "boarding" w/V&T? What was the rent and how the rent got paid? I think the newlyweds were very kind to share their marital home with their down-n-out friend.

IIRC he had been staying there about 6 months, but I don't recall hearing what the rent was

[Justice_Dawg]

JD - how long had Tim been "boarding" w/V&T? What was the rent and how the rent got paid? I think the newlyweds were very kind to share their marital home with their down-n-out friend.

I don't think anyone has ever said how long. I could be wrong.

[Justice_Dawg]

Well he was so supportive to be paying rent at VR's and provide for Tanya, his daughters and his girlfriend. Oh and his cigs and cellphone.

Why would VR take a married man into his house that he shared with his new bride and 8yo son?

Don't forget his New shiny truck. :wink:

I have no clue how VR even knew the guy. He lived over 175 miles away.

[JD1974]

Well he was so supportive to be paying rent at VR's and provide for Tanya, his daughters and his girlfriend. Oh and his cigs and cellphone.

Why would VR take a married man into his house that he shared with his new bride and 8yo son?


Better yet why would he let someone who is married with a girlfriend on the side stay in his house with his new bride and 8 yo son? I wonder if they had met the sidekick to his marriage yet? I read he proposed to her...

[Justice_Dawg]

IIRC he had been staying there about 6 months, but I don't recall hearing what the rent was

See, I was wrong. :blushing:
L
O
L

[Justice_Dawg]

Better yet why would he let someone who is married with a girlfriend on the side stay in his house with his new bride and 8 yo son? I wonder if they had met the sidekick to his marriage yet? I read he proposed to her...

VR and TR were known to go to the bar (and get in fights while they were there) where TR's g/f worked.

So VR KNEW.

[Pag Boi]

Better yet why would he let someone who is married with a girlfriend on the side stay in his house with his new bride and 8 yo son? I wonder if they had met the sidekick to his marriage yet? I read he proposed to her...

And a stray bullet and a handgun for the shiny truck. It was tricked out St. John's style.

I don't see how VR could not know about the sidekick. But he seemed to be more concerned with his son overcoming the fear of guns. He could protect him from 2nd hand smoke. But couldn't provide adult supervision for him 2 days a wk?

What did Tim do while V & T had their fights? Spanked the child? I find the living arrangements so strange.


Is the link to the proposal still active? TIA.

[Justice_Dawg]

And a stray bullet and a handgun for the shiny truck. It was tricked out St. John's style.

I don't see how VR could not know about the sidekick. But he seemed to be more concerned with his son overcoming the fear of guns. He could protect him from 2nd hand smoke. But couldn't provide adult supervision for him 2 days a wk?

What did Tim do while V & T had their fights? Spanked the child? I find the living arrangements so strange.


Is the link to the proposal still active? TIA.

BB: Okay. Did you, uh, have, er be, mm, have you been made aware whether er not there’s a, there were divorce proceedings between, Mr. Romans and Mrs. Romans? At that time?
TA: At that time I have no idea.
BB: Um, have you le, learned that there have or haven’t been since then?
TA: I, unders,s, from what I understand now there has not been.
BB: Um, and that apparently Tim had asked, this Candy lady ta marry him?
TA: That’s…
BB: The night before this?
TA: Yes, that’s what she said.

http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/Avilla.pdf

[IAMME]

Better yet why would he let someone who is married with a girlfriend on the side stay in his house with his new bride and 8 yo son? I wonder if they had met the sidekick to his marriage yet? I read he proposed to her...

You forgot "with a criminal history".....

I had a thought on this last night though, do we know if Tiffany and Vincent lived together b4 marriage? BC maybe Tim was living there while it was still a bach pad.....

And I have another question, or comment but feel free to clarify for me.....

Vincent was married and divorced to Eryn, he had a child by another woman, who we dont know if he ever bothered to marry, isnt all of that frowned upon by the catholic church, I mean i stopped attending mass a VERY long time ago, but I seem to remember that divorce was one of the BIG no-nos, how in the world did they manage to get married in the church?

[JD1974]

You forgot "with a criminal history".....

I had a thought on this last night though, do we know if Tiffany and Vincent lived together b4 marriage? BC maybe Tim was living there while it was still a bach pad.....

And I have another question, or comment but feel free to clarify for me.....

Vincent was married and divorced to Eryn, he had a child by another woman, who we dont know if he ever bothered to marry, isnt all of that frowned upon by the catholic church, I mean i stopped attending mass a VERY long time ago, but I seem to remember that divorce was one of the BIG no-nos, how in the world did they manage to get married in the church?

I have never been a catholic so I honestly have no idea about that one. I did forget the criminal history, drugs, and now it seems that Tiffany's sister got nailed on some drug charges herself, in front of her baby no less...maybe drugs aren't a big deal around that house? What a cocktail for disaster...guns, bullets, felons and an 8 year old staying home alone.


ETA I am not sure about the living together but someone posted Tim lived there for about 6 months? Tiffany and Vincent had ben married 2 I think, 2 months isn't enough time to find a new place for him and his new wife?

[IAMME]

I have never been a catholic so I honestly have no idea about that one. I did forget the criminal history, drugs, and now it seems that Tiffany's sister got nailed on some drug charges herself, in front of her baby no less...maybe drugs aren't a big deal around that house? What a cocktail for disaster...guns, bullets, felons and an 8 year old staying home alone.


ETA I am not sure about the living together but someone posted Tim lived there for about 6 months? Tiffany and Vincent had ben married 2 I think, 2 months isn't enough time to find a new place for him and his new wife?

I believe it was Tiffany's father......I thought the same thing as you when I first read it though.... I wonder who the baby was....the kids in this family make me sad. And if I was them I would be so scared bc they all know now that their family will throw them under the bus at the first sign opportunity. CPS should be looking at all the remaining children in this family. IMO

[Pag Boi]

You forgot "with a criminal history".....

I had a thought on this last night though, do we know if Tiffany and Vincent lived together b4 marriage? BC maybe Tim was living there while it was still a bach pad.....

And I have another question, or comment but feel free to clarify for me.....

Vincent was married and divorced to Eryn, he had a child by another woman, who we dont know if he ever bothered to marry, isnt all of that frowned upon by the catholic church, I mean i stopped attending mass a VERY long time ago, but I seem to remember that divorce was one of the BIG no-nos, how in the world did they manage to get married in the church?

IIRC, the Church only recognizes marriages that they conduct or bless.So V prolly was never divorced in the eyes of the church. Couples are supposed to go through a process and then the church decides if they should marry within. The church will also annul a marriage after appealing to a tribunal council. I don't know if Eryn was even Catholic

How the priest overlooked his treatment of his ex-wife and the love child, I don't know.

V nor Tif sound like a devout Catholic. Letting Tim "board" there and conduct an affair outside his marriage wasn't some good deed for a man in need. JMOO.

I wonder if VR talked to the priest about Tim's behavior and how it might influence his marriage or his child? Or just the child's need to get over the fear of guns? Did VR tell the priest that they were leaving their 8yo home alone 2 days a week?

At least Tif can still party thru her grief.

[Pag Boi]

BB: Okay. Did you, uh, have, er be, mm, have you been made aware whether er not there’s a, there were divorce proceedings between, Mr. Romans and Mrs. Romans? At that time?
TA: At that time I have no idea.
BB: Um, have you le, learned that there have or haven’t been since then?
TA: I, unders,s, from what I understand now there has not been.
BB: Um, and that apparently Tim had asked, this Candy lady ta marry him?
TA: That’s…
BB: The night before this?
TA: Yes, that’s what she said.

http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/Avilla.pdf

Thx JD!!! The adults in this case scare the he!! out of me. Not the 8yo. This might be the worst investigation I have ever followed. These officials have no skill.

TA has been in LE for 10 years and she states she, "fergets where she was going with this."

Within hours of learning that their husbands have been murdered, Tif alleges kidnap rumors and Tanya calls the child a liar. oMG. LE didn't even interview them a 2nd time b/f they sought out the child.:flamemad:

[JD1974]

IIRC, the Church only recognizes marriages that they conduct or bless.So V prolly was never divorced in the eyes of the church. Couples are supposed to go through a process and then the church decides if they should marry within. The church will also annul a marriage after appealing to a tribunal council. I don't know if Eryn was even Catholic

How the priest overlooked his treatment of his ex-wife and the love child, I don't know.

V nor Tif sound like a devout Catholic. Letting Tim "board" there and conduct an affair outside his marriage wasn't some good deed for a man in need. JMOO.

I wonder if VR talked to the priest about Tim's behavior and how it might influence his marriage or his child? Or just the child's need to get over the fear of guns? Did VR tell the priest that they were leaving their 8yo home alone 2 days a week?

At least Tif can still party thru her grief.


Well I hope she isn't drinking if the rumor of her being pregnant is true! That's a good question about asking the preist about Tim's influence on his son, that is if the kid even knew what was going on with the new sidekick and Tim...that kind of talk is for adults surely? I mean an 8 year old allowed to engage in adult talks about adultry and such isn't appropriate, he is only old enough to earn the privledge to be tried as an adult, not to actually DO adult things right?

[Justice_Dawg]

Well I hope she isn't drinking if the rumor of her being pregnant is true! That's a good question about asking the preist about Tim's influence on his son, that is if the kid even knew what was going on with the new sidekick and Tim...that kind of talk is for adults surely? I mean an 8 year old allowed to engage in adult talks about adultry and such isn't appropriate, he is only old enough to earn the privledge to be tried as an adult, not to actually DO adult things right?

Keyword, rumor:

BB: Okay. Um, with, um, but she did indicate to you that there was, a confrontation with, her, with Vincent and Larry Curley.
TA: Yes.
BB: And that, pertained to, her having cancer?
TA: Yeah, she had, uh, cervical cancer er sumpin and she was goin to get, I don’t know if she was goin to get the test before, or she was goin for some testing on that, and, he didn’t want any, Vincent needed the day off and, she said that Larry was upset about that.

http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/Avilla.pdf

[Pag Boi]

Well I hope she isn't drinking if the rumor of her being pregnant is true! That's a good question about asking the preist about Tim's influence on his son, that is if the kid even knew what was going on with the new sidekick and Tim...that kind of talk is for adults surely? I mean an 8 year old allowed to engage in adult talks about adultry and such isn't appropriate, he is only old enough to earn the privledge to be tried as an adult, not to actually DO adult things right?

Well according to our expert interviewer/jail commander, the only this that the child didn't know was what a hubcap was. He had an answer for every one of her questions, so that meant to her he fully understood all about the GSR and blowback and fingerprints and ballistics.

He wasn't a victim of a sexual molestation so she didn't treat him like one. (Nor did she ask him if he might have been. I guess she could just tell). JMOO but dang if TA doesn't sound just like some posters I have read. Not that TA could find her way to this board. I don't think she could find her way out of a paper bag.

Speaking of paper bags, is it protocal to put all the clothes collected into one bag? TIA

[Pag Boi]

Um. Er. TA tells BB that she was not trying to discomfort the child when they moved closer to him in the video interview. In fact she says "most of the time I was touching his leg when I was talking to him so it wasn't for that reason at all."

Is that even legal in AZ? Why was she touching him? since she says he wasn't a victim, she couldn't have been consoling the child. This case and this LE is off the charts effed up JMOO

[JD1974]

Keyword, rumor:

BB: Okay. Um, with, um, but she did indicate to you that there was, a confrontation with, her, with Vincent and Larry Curley.
TA: Yes.
BB: And that, pertained to, her having cancer?
TA: Yeah, she had, uh, cervical cancer er sumpin and she was goin to get, I don’t know if she was goin to get the test before, or she was goin for some testing on that, and, he didn’t want any, Vincent needed the day off and, she said that Larry was upset about that.

http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/Avilla.pdf


Yeah I know it is rumor..I still posted even after I read about the cervical cancer because guess how I found out I had cervical cancer...the first appt of my last pregnancy.

[JD1974]

Um. Er. TA tells BB that she was not trying to discomfort the child when they moved closer to him in the video interview. In fact she says "most of the time I was touching his leg when I was talking to him so it wasn't for that reason at all."

Is that even legal in AZ? Why was she touching him? since she says he wasn't a victim, she couldn't have been consoling the child. This case and this LE is off the charts effed up JMOO

Hey I wonder if she really said his mom was going to be mad at him if he told the truth or if that is a typo? Think I already asked that a long time ago but I can't remember now lol

I kind of wondered about the touching thing too, bizarre....

[Justice_Dawg]

Yeah I know it is rumor..I still posted even after I read about the cervical cancer because guess how I found out I had cervical cancer...the first appt of my last pregnancy.
OMG! Don't go that to me! Are you ok???

I like to point out the part "he didn't want any"
THAT is motive.

[JD1974]

OMG! Don't go that to me! Are you ok???

I like to point out the part "he didn't want any"
THAT is motive.

I am fine after a hysterectomy...my son is almost 5 so it was a while ago. Thanks for asking though.


I read in the statement by the one officer that Tiffany said that he was going to be the father of her kids? Something to that effect....


eta sorry if that sounds snappy, it isn't meant to lol I just don't like talking about it :)

[Justice_Dawg]

I am fine after a hysterectomy...my son is almost 5 so it was a while ago. Thanks for asking though.


I read in the statement by the one officer that Tiffany said that he was going to be the father of her kids? Something to that effect....
You keep that boy away from guns and meth!

Maybe that is what she wanted?

[JD1974]

You keep that boy away from guns and meth!

Maybe that is what she wanted?



Very possible, I have seen women kill for less...I watch way too many episodes of Snapped

[muska]

http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/d/e/v/Jeffrey-L-Devall-AZ/PHOTO/0112photo.html

Jeffrey L DeVall

Daughter, Deborah Lynn DeVall
Daughter, Tiffany Ann DeVall

Deborah Devall, 22, 1828 N. First St. #1, was arrested on July 12 at 4:27 p.m. and charged with possession of dangerous drugs and possession of drug paraphernalia.

According to a Flagstaff police report, officers were dispatched to Devall's apartment regarding a 911 hang-up. When the officer arrived they noticed surveillance equipment outside the apartment and leading up to the second story of the building.

After the officer knocked on Devall's front door and received no response he went to Apartment 2 and talked with the resident, who was Devall's father. He took the officer over to his daughter's apartment and unlocked the door.

The officer reported that there was no one on the ground floor, and then went upstairs to find Devall on the floor in a room with a baby. Inside the room the officer found a propane torch, glass pipe, and a black metal box with a drug scale and methamphetamine on a table.

Devall was booked into Coconino County Jail.

http://www.azdailysun.com/articles/2003/07/14/export1652.txt

Is she in jail or might she be another suspect? Meth makes people do crazy things, maybe she needed money.

[Justice_Dawg]

Very possible, I have seen women kill for less...I watch way too many episodes of Snapped

LOL, I love Snapped. My SO tries to hide my gun on me when I watch it.

[muska]

Dont forget the girl who was strip searched at school by the romero woman bc of the allegations of the romero boy...... These ppl are weird, if I was charged of a crime today, I know that you couldnt find this many suspicous incidents/people connected to me.....

I don't remember this. It didn't involve this child, did it?

[JD1974]

LOL, I love Snapped. My SO tries to hide my gun on me when I watch it.


Mine sighs and leaves the room LOL

[Justice_Dawg]

Is she in jail or might she be another suspect? Meth makes people do crazy things, maybe she needed money.

That info was PM'd to me.

The person that sent it wondered if Tiffany lived in her dad's apartment building also. Tiffany has a criminal arrest too, but it was 02/03 and it just says Dismissed W/O prejudice. (In my line of work, that usually means she ratted someone out).
Her sister was arrested for the meth 07/03.

[bkwits]

Yeah I know it is rumor..I still posted even after I read about the cervical cancer because guess how I found out I had cervical cancer...the first appt of my last pregnancy.


Thanks for being here.


:wub:

[lurkinghere2]

Check out the comment

http://www.silverbelt.com/guestbook/

In case it doesn't go to it, it's Friday November 28th

Well, that required loggin in to say, Wow. Just wow.

[Justice_Dawg]

Well, that required loggin in to say, Wow. Just wow.
I know.
How do we know Tanya got a civil attorney? I can't find it?

[lurkinghere2]

Yeah I know it is rumor..I still posted even after I read about the cervical cancer because guess how I found out I had cervical cancer...the first appt of my last pregnancy.

There was a poster on an AZfamily thread, I think, who seemed to know the familiy personally, who commented on her being pregnant. That comment was not related in any way to this piece of info from the legal documents. -- iirc

[muska]

Check out the comment

http://www.silverbelt.com/guestbook/

In case it doesn't go to it, it's Friday November 28th

Missed that comment the first time that I looked....apparently not everyone thought Tim was such a great guy. Maybe he was the target.

[Justice_Dawg]

Missed that comment the first time that I looked....apparently not everyone thought Tim was such a great guy. Maybe he was the target.

I think they wanted them both dead. The final shots to the head are execution style and are very telling to me.

IMO

[VC2]

Well I hope she isn't drinking if the rumor of her being pregnant is true! That's a good question about asking the preist about Tim's influence on his son, that is if the kid even knew what was going on with the new sidekick and Tim...that kind of talk is for adults surely? I mean an 8 year old allowed to engage in adult talks about adultry and such isn't appropriate, he is only old enough to earn the privledge to be tried as an adult, not to actually DO adult things right?

right. i really wonder if there was not some nasty sexual abuse going on in that home, pedo's seem to find each other, as do sadists. Reminds me a little of the 16 year old who was tortured by the couple who owned the home and their "roomie" the supposed mom

[patschican]

If you have read all the links as you suggested others do, you would know the kid has no safe place to go :read: "The court will find in the interests of the minor and the pubic require custodial protection." Mr. Brewer: "That's correct judge."

I'm not the one complaining because he is being detained and cheering when he is released to his mother. So you believe he has no place to go, yet you are upset at him being detained? I don't understand your stance. Please clarify.

Your OJ factor? I don't understand it or how it relates to this case. There was a conspiracy to frame OJ? Who is claiming a conspiracy of any magnitude in THIS CASE? TIA. Point it out or quit posting it. I see a lot of incompetence. It only takes one ring leader. Then others will blindly follow. Not saying that you are. I am sure you have given great consideration to both sides of this story. ;)

As Detail pointed out, the analogy I was making was that I did not buy the conspiracy defense that those who believed OJ to be innocent were touting. Just as I do not believe that it was either a conspiracy or just a string of bad luck causing so many people to think this boy is guilty. One poster -- I believe Detail, though I apologize if I'm wrong -- stated that the grandparents were just weird. So we have weird grandparents who would tell police that they knew it was the boy, two interviewing POs who are incompetent, a DA who is crooked, and an entire media who is railroading him. That is one unlucky boy.

You accept an 8yo's snipped video confessing to his father's murder and all the various changes others claim he made to his story "telling." I find it far more interesting what they are NOT telling.

I'll tell you what I heard in the snippet released to the public. I heard POs speaking softly and kindly to the boy, calling him honey, not talking in a harassing manner. In transcripts, I read how they explained how gunshot residue works, then simply asked if they would find any on his clothes. They didn't lie and say, "We FOUND residue on your clothes," rather, they said, this is what happens when you are close to a firing gun...will we find this on your clothing when we test it? Of course it's possible that there were other moments less gentle that they chose not to show, but my gut tells me that they didn't do that. I could be wrong, but there is no evidence of it, so why would I think it happened? I do not automatically think the worst of police, and yes, I tend to be pro prosecution. Although, in the interest of fairness, and in the interest of ensuring that all of our civil rights remain intact, I believe the confession should be tossed, because he was not Mirandized. This doesn't mean that I think the methods used by the interviewing officers were brutal or harassing, just that they did not follow proper procedures, therefore, the confession has to go.

The DA wants to submit the confession DVD into evidence even tho the defense hasn't had a chance to view it. Yet in next breathe, Carolyn wants advance notice if the defense finds new evidence not presented in court, and a safe place for the minor to be released to -- so he knows he is attending a release hearing instead of a pretrial hearing. Classic!

I don't think that's indicative of him knowing it's going to be a release hearing. If anything, I think it's indicative of him being more honest than you give him credit for. If exculpatory evidence arises, we need to figure out how to safely release him as we drop the charges. Sounds pretty decent to me. In the meantime, they still believe that the ballistics will show gunshot residue on his clothing, they believe ballistics will show the gun used to kill these men was the boy's gun, they believe that the fingerprint evidence will show the boy's prints on the gun (and directly on the trigger, not smudged as would be the case if someone wearing gloves used the gun to frame the boy).

Regarding contradicting statements by the police, please post links. There is so much reading involved in this case, and I came to it late. I have a full-time job and simply cannot spend the amount of time plowing through all the previous posts. If I am mistaken, please state, "you are mistaken because of this," and then provide a link, or a reference to a specific mention in the official court documents. Honestly, I didn't have this much reading when doing my thesis!

If the evidence comes back that entrance wounds and exit wounds do not match a scenario conducive with this boy doing the shooting, or that the bullets did not come from his gun, or that the fingerprints on the gun were not his or were smudged, indicating that a gloved hand used the gun on top of fingerprints that we can expect to already be there, or that there was no gunshot residue on his clothing, then of course I will change my mind. But as I have said before, my gut tells me that he did do it. I did an internship at the NYS Department of Youth, in a girls' detention facility, so I know that young children can do hideously violent acts with no prior warning. It's scary, it's awful, but it can happen. I find the grandparents' statements to be indicative of the intuition that family members can have about kids, even kids who have no history of problems in school.

And if it turns out that he is guilty but he was abused for years, I have nothing but sympathy for him.

I apologize for the length of this post, but there was a lot to respond to.

[IAMME]

I don't remember this. It didn't involve this child, did it?


No it didnt involve this boy (the 8 yo). It involved the Romero man from the "tiffany partying" blog, when he was a boy....

[IAMME]

Everyone keeps saying it was Tiffany's sister who was the meth user/baby endangerer (new word lol).

I am pretty sure it was her DAD Not her sister. re-read it. "Jeffery"?

[IAMME]

List of suspects UPDATE:

Tanya Romans-cheated on wife whose husband proposed marriage to another woman the night before he was killed-chief ear-witness

Romans family members-perhaps upset with Tim

Reservation members-rival tribal problems

CoWorkers-problems at work-fighting with co workers-particulary Mr. Curley

Mexican nationals-documentation of barrom brawls with TR and VR

Candi-proposed to (?) by a married man the night before he was murdered-shows no remorse for affair by placing info on her public myspeace

Family/Friends of Candi-worked in a bar-perhaps someone angry at TR for the affair

Tiffany-new situation living her first 2 months of marriage with a boarder-no one picked up after themselves, etc....

Tiffany's Sister-known drug addict who does meth with her baby in the room-did she have access to the home? A key? Could she have been there stealing and got caught?

Grandpa-strangly didn't want the boy to talk to police but then once he "confessed" he stays out of it-boy said he saw a car looking like Grandpas-grandpa was often there when parents weren't home

Drug people-TR has 5 hundreds on his person-perhaps collection on a drug deal (?) The drug test was negative however. He was convicted of drug charges.

Unknown intruder-wrong place, wrong time?

Underlying issues surrounding the case:

Bullet hole in truck not connected to this incident
Affiars
Newly married couple living with a boarder
Strange relationship with child's natural mother-perhaps some parental alientation going on
Grandma saying kids too hard on her
Barroom brawls
Drugs
GUNS and AMMO around an 8 year old in an UNSUPERVISED, messy house
Native American tribes

Anyone feel free to add anything I may have missed?


BTW-I hate to admit this, but I would have to add Eryn and her family members to the list as well-there was motive there as well, so that does need to be checked out. I did not list the boy, because he is obviously a suspect already.

Is there any reason why all of these leads should not be checked out simply because the 8 year old boy was led into a confession???

IMO

TRs daughters, cheating on their mother and endangering their college tuition would be pretty strong motive IMO

[JD1974]

There was a poster on an AZfamily thread, I think, who seemed to know the familiy personally, who commented on her being pregnant. That comment was not related in any way to this piece of info from the legal documents. -- iirc


Yes that is where I got it from :)

[JD1974]

Everyone keeps saying it was Tiffany's sister who was the meth user/baby endangerer (new word lol).

I am pretty sure it was her DAD Not her sister. re-read it. "Jeffery"?


That is from the top link showing the relationship to the same father, showing they were sisters. Read the story, do you think their dad is a 22 year old female? Thats who was arrested a 22 year old female with a baby in the room.

[Justice_Dawg]

Everyone keeps saying it was Tiffany's sister who was the meth user/baby endangerer (new word lol).

I am pretty sure it was her DAD Not her sister. re-read it. "Jeffery"?

He just owned the apartment building. It was the sister.

Case Number: J-0301-IA-2003001055 Case Category: Criminal Case Title: ST OF AZ VS DEVALL DEBORAH
Court: Flagstaff Justice Judge: SANDRA WAGNER Filing Date: 07/13/2003 Disposition Date: 07/15/2003

Party Name: DEBORAH LYNN DEVALL Party Type: D 1 - DEFNDT/RESPNDT Date of Birth: 11/20/1980
Citation: CNONE Count 1: POSSESSION OF DRUG PARAPHERNALIA Disposition Date: 07/15/2003 Disposition: NO COMPLAINT FILED
Count 2: DANGEROUS DRUG VIOLATION Disposition Date: 07/15/2003 Disposition: NO COMPLAINT FILED
Event Date Event Description Party
7/29/2003 NOTICE OF APPEARANCE FILED D 1
7/15/2003 NO COMPLAINT/CHARGE FILED
7/13/2003 I/A HELD: FELONY/MISD/CR TR D 1

[Justice_Dawg]

TRs daughters, cheating on their mother and endangering their college tuition would be pretty strong motive IMO

Or Candy finding out he was married. That is a Motive also.

[JD1974]

Or Candy finding out he was married. That is a Motive also.

What is the population there, pretty small isn't it? That is a chunk of the pop. of a city that has some kind of motive to see you dead...you are seriously looking at maybe 5-10%..dang, I am curious how they survived as long as they did?


According to 2006 Census Bureau estimates, the population of the city was 3,538


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Johns,_Arizona

[bkwits]

snipped for relevance and space

Regarding contradicting statements by the police, please post links. There is so much reading involved in this case, and I came to it late. I have a full-time job and simply cannot spend the amount of time plowing through all the previous posts. If I am mistaken, please state, "you are mistaken because of this," and then provide a link, or a reference to a specific mention in the official court documents. Honestly, I didn't have this much reading when doing my thesis!

snipped


Many of us on this board have taken time to follow this case for weeks. Some of us feel passionate about it for various reasons.

I find it a slightly arrogant to say that one doesn't have time to read and digest what's already been discussed, if you expect to discuss the case intelligently.

To just throw out opinions without any research, and then expect other posters to refute them with their own research is kind of selfish, don't you think?

[mina]

Debbie Devall's "baby-daddy" has quite a few records on the court system's website. His name is William Paul Martinez, birthdate 1/8/1978. His records show up under several variations of his name, but I counted more than 20 criminal cases.

Here's the link to the paternity case that links him to Deb Devall: http://www.supreme.state.az.us/publicaccess/notification/casedetail.asp?cs_id=isieasgs&crt_name=Coconino%20County%20Superior

[Details]

... One poster -- I believe Detail, though I apologize if I'm wrong -- stated that the grandparents were just weird. So we have weird grandparents who would tell police that they knew it was the boy, two interviewing POs who are incompetent, a DA who is crooked, and an entire media who is railroading him. That is one unlucky boy.That is not a conspiracy though. A conspiracy is a bunch of people plotting to do something. The grandparents - yep, I said they were weird. Pretty odd for grandparents to think a grandchild would do such a thing, with no reason for that other than that a child who has just seen their dead father actually cried all night. That's weird. But it's not a conspiracy. And others who know the child well do not share their beliefs.

The POs - simple truth, they are not trained in interrogating children. You should watch the whole interrogation - not the little snippet that is quite carefully selected. And read about how the POs did indeed lie in it, on two key elements - to say they had ballistics info back to know that it was just the one gun used, so it was all his fault, and to say they had a witness who saw him kill the two men. I can't believe anyone has worked with children much, if they haven't seen how they'll accept and make up a story to fit what they are told is true by adults. No conspiracy here, just simple good old incompetence. They used the same tactics they were used to using on adult suspects (lie, use physical posturing to intimidate the suspect, etc.) - without following the requirements for civil rights they'd have had to follow for an adult.

The DA - he's going for what is easiest, and gets him the most PR, IMO. An unsolved double-murder with a bunch of suspects but nothing solid - that's tough. Catching an 8 year old killer - that gets him nationwide media attention - and slipping the confession tape out to the media to convince people that he's right. You could see a similar confession tape for the Harris case. Two children confessed to a violent rape and murder, when police questioned them. The DA went for it in that case too - laziness - they've got a confession, so they use it - without regard for if it's likely to be true or not. I don't know if it's a desire for PR, laziness, or if he's one of those people who believes all confessions are real, in spite of the massive evidence to the contrary - but whatever it is, he's far from the first DA to incorrectly decide that a child's confession is real and persue it. Harris, Crowe, and many others that haven't recieved as much media attention.

The media - that's no conspiracy either. The media generally assumes if you are charged, you're guilty. And they have one interest - they want whatever gets ratings. The scary story of a child as a cold-blooded killer - that's ratings. The story of a possibly false confession, uncertainty - not such great ratings.


I don't know what type of children you worked with - but they were not this little boy - statistically speaking. It's been almost 20 years since the last time an 8 year old child killed a parent - and that case involved violent abuse. So, obviously, there are not a bunch of 8 year old killers out there. But there are some pretty impressive stats about the number of false confessions out there. Putting police trained to get the truth from hardened adult criminals using all kinds of highly persuasive, effective, manipulative techniques, in the same room as a child, taught to respect and trust adults and accustomed to having to go with what they were told - it's a recipe for false confessions!

[JD1974]

Putting police trained to get the truth from hardened adult criminals using all kinds of highly persuasive, effective, manipulative techniques, in the same room as a child, taught to respect and trust adults and accustomed to having to go with what they were told - it's a recipe for false confessions!

I hated to snip that because I agree with everything you said, but this caught my attention! No truer words have been spoken, if it turns out this boy did this, so be it. The confession still looks coerced, he was wrong about crime scene and it is still BS that they claim he wasn't a suspect and therefore they didn't have to mirandize him. I don't think he would of understood the miranda anyway!

[Details]

I hated to snip that because I agree with everything you said, but this caught my attention! No truer words have been spoken, if it turns out this boy did this, so be it. The confession still looks coerced, he was wrong about crime scene and it is still BS that they claim he wasn't a suspect and therefore they didn't have to mirandize him. I don't think he would of understood the miranda anyway!I'm sure he wouldn't have understood the Miranda - which is why his guardians are supposed to be making the choices for him. But the police claimed it was just a witness interview, when it's obvious they thought him a suspect at that point.

I still can't buy that he did it - just on the crime scene, if nothing else. He's admitting to shooting his dad and Tim - the worst possible thing he can say - and supposedly he lies about how many times he shot them, and where he put the gun (and IIRC, he's also wrong about where he shot them, per the autopsy)? That's ridiculous - there's no reason for him to lie about where he put the gun at that point. The only reason, is that he didn't do it, he's making up the story to fit what the two cops are telling him, and they didn't tell him where to say he'd left the gun.

[Justice_Dawg]

What is the population there, pretty small isn't it? That is a chunk of the pop. of a city that has some kind of motive to see you dead...you are seriously looking at maybe 5-10%..dang, I am curious how they survived as long as they did?


According to 2006 Census Bureau estimates, the population of the city was 3,538


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Johns,_Arizona

The killer/s could have come from Tim's hometown. Who knows? :scared:

[Justice_Dawg]

The grandparents only thought it was the boy when they knew of 2 gunshots to each man, (as per cohersed confession.) They know a lot more now. They wanted to have furlough time with him, that is most likely why Eryn filed her motion.
I don't blame Eryn one bit either!!!

imo

[muska]

The grandparents only thought it was the boy when they knew of 2 gunshots to each man, (as per cohersed confession.) They know a lot more now. They wanted to have furlough time with him, that is most likely why Eryn filed her motion.
I don't blame Eryn one bit either!!!

imo

And the grandparents thought it was him because the police allowed them to think that Vincent was shot in the chest and that the boy could only have known that if he was the shooter.

[Justice_Dawg]

And the grandparents thought it was him because the police allowed them to think that Vincent was shot in the chest and that the boy could only have known that if he was the shooter.

Bingo!!!!!!

[Dallasnc]

The grandparents only thought it was the boy when they knew of 2 gunshots to each man, (as per cohersed confession.) They know a lot more now. They wanted to have furlough time with him, that is most likely why Eryn filed her motion.
I don't blame Eryn one bit either!!!

imo

Is there a link for Eryn's motion? I always felt the grandparent were saying that VR and TR being so hard on him could have given him a reason. I took them not saying any more was because they were not going to give LE anything to use against him. This is all MOO. They ask to be with him and/or for him to have a child advocate or someone for him when he was questioned.

My grandson (7yr) is waiting on me, so I'm off.

Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays to all! God bless this small child who will be waiting on Santa in Ariz.!!

[Details]

And the grandparents thought it was him because the police allowed them to think that Vincent was shot in the chest and that the boy could only have known that if he was the shooter.If so - they're a bit gullible. Shot in the chest or head are the two ways a person or animal is usually killed with a gun. Coming up with that isn't any special knowledge, it's a 50/50 coin flip as to if you are correct or not. That's not much of an indication if the boy knew anything.


But - a lot of people - like the little boy - like honest law-abiding people of all ages - do believe the police will be honest and correct every time. So I guess I can see them believing the police. And there are also many who don't get false confessions - don't understand that they are real and fairly common. I was on a forum for the Crowe case. Even after the dead girl's blood was found on the transient's shirt, some were still positive her brother killed her - after all, he confessed!

[lurkinghere2]

The grandparents only thought it was the boy when they knew of 2 gunshots to each man, (as per cohersed confession.) They know a lot more now. They wanted to have furlough time with him, that is most likely why Eryn filed her motion.
I don't blame Eryn one bit either!!!

imo


Is there a link to them wanting furlough time?? I thought they were being schmucks & hadn't even visited. If they actually want to spend time with him or have visited, then I'll up my opinion of them a tad.

[Justice_Dawg]

Is there a link for Eryn's motion? I always felt the grandparent were saying that VR and TR being so hard on him could have given him a reason. I took them not saying any more was because they were not going to give LE anything to use against him. This is all MOO. They ask to be with him and/or for him to have a child advocate or someone for him when he was questioned.

My grandson (7yr) is waiting on me, so I'm off.

Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays to all! God bless this small child who will be waiting on Santa in Ariz.!!

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/NOTICE%20OF%20APPEARANCE.pdf

Merry Christmas to ALL!!

[Justice_Dawg]

Is there a link to them wanting furlough time?? I thought they were being schmucks & hadn't even visited. If they actually want to spend time with him or have visited, then I'll up my opinion of them a tad.
shhhhhh there is a gag.:biggrin:
The grandmother and aunt visit and of course Eryn visits all the time.

[Justice_Dawg]

If so - they're a bit gullible. Shot in the chest or head are the two ways a person or animal is usually killed with a gun. Coming up with that isn't any special knowledge, it's a 50/50 coin flip as to if you are correct or not. That's not much of an indication if the boy knew anything.


But - a lot of people - like the little boy - like honest law-abiding people of all ages - do believe the police will be honest and correct every time. So I guess I can see them believing the police. And there are also many who don't get false confessions - don't understand that they are real and fairly common. I was on a forum for the Crowe case. Even after the dead girl's blood was found on the transient's shirt, some were still positive her brother killed her - after all, he confessed!
I know. I fought for the Crowes with all I had.
Some people just make me sick! barf

We had a guy exonerated in Ohio a few months ago by DNA which matched another inmate to the crime. The prosecutor said he didn't care what the DNA said he said the (exonerated) guy was still guilty. You have to wonder how he made it through Law School with such a tiny brain.:cursing:

[ChildsVOICE]

I searched long and hard and did not find any articles on Tim Romans' trail of blood. The closest I came was a brief discussion on websleuths that included a link which is now defunct.

However, in the discussion on websleuths, it was hypothesized that Romans was running toward the boy in an attempt to overtake him, but was stopped with another gunshot that incapacitated him. This could explain the trail of blood heading toward the house.

I'm vacillating on this case, but fear my first impression may be the correct one -- that the boy did indeed do it. Of course we'll know a lot more when they release ballistics results, along with other key evidence. I'm assuming they dusted the rifle for fingerprints...have we heard anything about that yet?

It should be in the transcripts of the Nov 7th detention hearing, if I'm remembering correctly. I think it was the Sgt.'s testimony.

[Hawk]

The boy told interogators that his friend Leroy has a gun like his, only bigger, that shots the same bullets as his gun. Could this be the missing Mossberg semi-automatic rifle to which the owners manual is seen in one of the photos.
LE said they didn't remove any other .22 cal. weapons from the home. Only the chipmunk.
Where the heck is that Mossberg?

[ChildsVOICE]

I searched long and hard and did not find any articles on Tim Romans' trail of blood. The closest I came was a brief discussion on websleuths that included a link which is now defunct.

However, in the discussion on websleuths, it was hypothesized that Romans was running toward the boy in an attempt to overtake him, but was stopped with another gunshot that incapacitated him. This could explain the trail of blood heading toward the house.

I'm vacillating on this case, but fear my first impression may be the correct one -- that the boy did indeed do it. Of course we'll know a lot more when they release ballistics results, along with other key evidence. I'm assuming they dusted the rifle for fingerprints...have we heard anything about that yet?
Also, Tim's body was on the ground in such a way as the boy describes, apologetically, "tapping his head" with the door as he opened it to try to get inside the house searching for his dad. There are no reports of gunshots through the door from the inside to the outside, as you would expect from a shooter "luring" Tim inside the house. Also, the bullet holes and placement of Tim's body so close to the door would not be consistent with the shooter being at the entranceway. There was one bullet hole found going into the house from the outside.

[Justice_Dawg]

The boy told interogators that his friend Leroy has a gun like his, only bigger, that shots the same bullets as his gun. Could this be the missing Mossberg semi-automatic rifle to which the owners manual is seen in one of the photos.
LE said they didn't remove any other .22 cal. weapons from the home. Only the chipmunk.
Where the heck is that Mossberg?

Grandpa Leroy.
Yes they did Rodregez(sp) testimony I think. They took all .22 rifles.

[Details]

He should be home with his mother, I'd expect, by now. Here's hoping he never has to go back. Just a few more days, and there will be a new prosecutor.

[Justice_Dawg]

He should be home with his mother, I'd expect, by now. Here's hoping he never has to go back. Just a few more days, and there will be a new prosecutor.

He is, and Eryn is very, very happy! She said Thank you ALL for your prayers!

Just passing that along. :biggrin:

[IAMME]

He is, and Eryn is very, very happy! She said Thank you ALL for your prayers!

Just passing that along. :biggrin:

THANK GOD!!!!!!:thumbup:

May Santa bring this baby everything on his wish list!:wub:

[Hawk]

Grandpa Leroy.
Yes they did Rodregez(sp) testimony I think. They took all .22 rifles.

Nov 10th Hearing

Brewer: "So you found just one .22 type weapon in the house".

Rodriguez: "Yes, sir". (the chipmunk)

Don't know which part of the interrogation tape it was, but the boy says his friend, Leroy, owns a .22 like mine, except bigger. He wasn't referring to his grandfather.

I'm just wondering who Leroy is, and why a manual for the Mossberg was in the house but not the Mossberg itself.

[Hawk]

THANK GOD!!!!!!:thumbup:

May Santa bring this baby everything on his wish list!:wub:

Yes, indeed!!

[Crispy]

Nov 10th Hearing

Brewer: "So you found just one .22 type weapon in the house".

Rodriguez: "Yes, sir". (the chipmunk)

Don't know which part of the interrogation tape it was, but the boy says his friend, Leroy, owns a .22 like mine, except bigger. He wasn't referring to his grandfather.

I'm just wondering who Leroy is, and why a manual for the Mossberg was in the house but not the Mossberg itself.

He doesn't say friend. He says his grandpa and the officers ask him which grandpa and he says Leroy.

[Hawk]

He doesn't say friend. He says his grandpa and the officers ask him which grandpa and he says Leroy.

I'm sure he says 'my friend Leroy'. LE doesn't ask who, or which grandpa, they move on.
This is on the KPHO.com version, part 3. It seems like some of these tapes have been cut or spliced, when you look at them from different sites. But in this one the boy definitely says "friend". If you know of a better version of the tape(s) that say grandpa please let me know.
It makes a difference, I think, to whom he is referring.

[Crispy]

At about 2:45 into part 3 he starts talking about guns and fingerprints.

So your fingerprints might be on that gun?

Yeah

How about any other guns?

They probably have my dad's fingerprints and I think Tim uses those guns sometimes and my grandpa has his gun over there.

Which grandpa?

um Leroy He has the same gun as me cept bigger

A chipmunk gun too?

No it's different cept it has the same bullets

OK, so did you touch any of the other guns yesterday that we might find your fingerprints on?

um no

http://www.kpho.com/news/18017593/detail.html#-

[muska]

If so - they're a bit gullible. Shot in the chest or head are the two ways a person or animal is usually killed with a gun. Coming up with that isn't any special knowledge, it's a 50/50 coin flip as to if you are correct or not. That's not much of an indication if the boy knew anything.


But - a lot of people - like the little boy - like honest law-abiding people of all ages - do believe the police will be honest and correct every time. So I guess I can see them believing the police. And there are also many who don't get false confessions - don't understand that they are real and fairly common. I was on a forum for the Crowe case. Even after the dead girl's blood was found on the transient's shirt, some were still positive her brother killed her - after all, he confessed!

I wonder how they felt when they found out Vincent had not been shot in the chest. You would think they'd feel like the police took advantage of them too.

[Justice_Dawg]

Nov 10th Hearing

Brewer: "So you found just one .22 type weapon in the house".

Rodriguez: "Yes, sir". (the chipmunk)

Don't know which part of the interrogation tape it was, but the boy says his friend, Leroy, owns a .22 like mine, except bigger. He wasn't referring to his grandfather.

I'm just wondering who Leroy is, and why a manual for the Mossberg was in the house but not the Mossberg itself.

Oh I finally found it. Thought I was going out of my mind. :tonguewag: Neckel interview:

BB: Um, there were, other, a variety of guns in, the parents’ room?
DN: Yes.
BB: And that’s their room, right?
DN: Yes.
BB: Okay. Uh, w-why weren’t any of those seized?
DN: Um, actually, all the .22’s were taken, because there was .22, casings, that were found, next to the bodies.
http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/Neckel.pdf

[Justice_Dawg]

I wonder how they felt when they found out Vincent had not been shot in the chest. You would think they'd feel like the police took advantage of them too.

I'd bet on that. :biggrin:

[muska]

shhhhhh there is a gag.:biggrin:
The grandmother and aunt visit and of course Eryn visits all the time.

I just saw a story(channel 3) that says the child has to go back to detention on Monday, his birthday. I was really hoping they'd just let him stay with his mother from now on....at least through the holidays

[Hawk]

Oh I finally found it. Thought I was going out of my mind. :tonguewag: Neckel interview:

BB: Um, there were, other, a variety of guns in, the parents’ room?
DN: Yes.
BB: And that’s their room, right?
DN: Yes.
BB: Okay. Uh, w-why weren’t any of those seized?
DN: Um, actually, all the .22’s were taken, because there was .22, casings, that were found, next to the bodies.
http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/Neckel.pdf

That contradicts her supervisors testimony (Sgt. Rodriguez). I tend to believe Lucas Rodriguez over 'detective' Neckel. She seems extremely incompetent.

This thing is a mess.

[Justice_Dawg]

That contradicts her supervisors testimony (Sgt. Rodriguez). I tend to believe Lucas Rodriguez over 'detective' Neckel. She seems extremely incompetent.

This thing is a mess.

Sgt. Rodriguez testified to that Nov 7th.
Neckels said it Nov 25th, when they knew more.

[Hawk]

Sgt. Rodriguez testified to that Nov 7th.
Neckels said it Nov 25th, when they knew more.

Yes, but Rodriguez was there in the house first and swore under oath that there was only the one .22. I'm sure they took an inventory.
I don't believe Neckels would know a 22 rifle from a shotgun. Her testimony is all over the place. She lied under oath about the victims background checks.

[Hawk]

[QUOTE=Crispy;12578513]At about 2:45 into part 3 he starts talking about guns and fingerprints.

So your fingerprints might be on that gun?

Yeah

How about any other guns?

They probably have my dad's fingerprints and I think Tim uses those guns sometimes and my grandpa has his gun over there.

Which grandpa?

um Leroy He has the same gun as me cept bigger

A chipmunk gun too?

No it's different cept it has the same bullets

OK, so did you touch any of the other guns yesterday that we might find your fingerprints on?

um no

http://www.kpho.com/news/18017593/detail.html#-[/QUOTE

My apologies. My hearing must be bad. You are exactly right. Thanks.

[Crispy]

No problem. I had to turn my speakers way up! LOL

[Hawk]

No problem. I had to turn my speakers way up! LOL

Guess I was barking up the wrong tree. It's just that the photo of the Mossberg manual has perplexed me since I first saw it. It is probably Leroy Romero's gun. I'm still curious about the box of .17 ammo shown in the pictures.
Thanks.

[Crispy]

It bugs me too! I would like to see if they took photos of any other manuals and how many photos they have of other guns and ammunition.

[Pag Boi]

What is the population there, pretty small isn't it? That is a chunk of the pop. of a city that has some kind of motive to see you dead...you are seriously looking at maybe 5-10%..dang, I am curious how they survived as long as they did?


According to 2006 Census Bureau estimates, the population of the city was 3,538


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Johns,_Arizona


So many LEO's for the closeknit community. At least 12 at the crime scene plus EMTs.

Add in the +8 tourists on 11/6 and it must be too many white vehicles for any region to BOLO.

Tanya and her entourage came riding into town confronting LE and causing a scene in a somber setting. The funeral home was under LE watch for chain of custody. Tanya & her gang of demanders are allowed past the case officer and encounter Sgt. Hogle. When he took Tanya and MIL in a room to talk to them, who kept the scene secure?

They give her a little info abt ther hubby to appease her? They knew right away Tim "was a border" at the residence of the crime. A wife shows up and they just try to calm her with a few deets of the crime scene? How kind of the small town safety officers not to add to her worries by asking her any questions. It's much more than they afforded the child.

It seems Hogle & Sgt Rod wanted to make sure that VR & TR were the only men leaving the funeral home in a hearse. JMOO.

[Pag Boi]

Sgt. Rodriguez testified to that Nov 7th.
Neckels said it Nov 25th, when they knew more.


All the sadder to me that DN couldn't describe her own case LOL. On the 7th, she ID'd the porch victim as TED Romans.

She finds a dead man on a porch and engages in a security ck with her coworker to clear the premises. She never draws her weapon or gives him backup as he moves through the crime scene. Mebbe her roving eye would have caught that closed door that Sgt Rod overlooked on his first walk thru. Or perhaps protected him should he come across an assailant :shrug:

[Pag Boi]

List of suspects UPDATE:

Tanya Romans-cheated on wife whose husband proposed marriage to another woman the night before he was killed-chief ear-witness

Romans family members-perhaps upset with Tim

Reservation members-rival tribal problems

CoWorkers-problems at work-fighting with co workers-particulary Mr. Curley

Mexican nationals-documentation of barrom brawls with TR and VR

Candi-proposed to (?) by a married man the night before he was murdered-shows no remorse for affair by placing info on her public myspeace

Family/Friends of Candi-worked in a bar-perhaps someone angry at TR for the affair

Tiffany-new situation living her first 2 months of marriage with a boarder-no one picked up after themselves, etc....

Tiffany's Sister-known drug addict who does meth with her baby in the room-did she have access to the home? A key? Could she have been there stealing and got caught?

Grandpa-strangly didn't want the boy to talk to police but then once he "confessed" he stays out of it-boy said he saw a car looking like Grandpas-grandpa was often there when parents weren't home

Drug people-TR has 5 hundreds on his person-perhaps collection on a drug deal (?) The drug test was negative however. He was convicted of drug charges.

Unknown intruder-wrong place, wrong time?

Underlying issues surrounding the case:

Bullet hole in truck not connected to this incident
Affiars
Newly married couple living with a boarder
Strange relationship with child's natural mother-perhaps some parental alientation going on
Grandma saying kids too hard on her
Barroom brawls
Drugs
GUNS and AMMO around an 8 year old in an UNSUPERVISED, messy house
Native American tribes

Anyone feel free to add anything I may have missed?


BTW-I hate to admit this, but I would have to add Eryn and her family members to the list as well-there was motive there as well, so that does need to be checked out. I did not list the boy, because he is obviously a suspect already.

Is there any reason why all of these leads should not be checked out simply because the 8 year old boy was led into a confession???

IMO


Jason Kirk the EMT. Tif tells DN that she saw them at 4:20 going into Wilburs. 3 days later a rotten bag of groceries with receipt for 4:45 in it. Tif stops again to talk to Jean & Jason b/f going into Napa. Jason had already left to go to crime scene. Guess Jason didn't think to tell Tif it was her addy he was rushing off to.

DRUGS: Sgt Rod says that while responding to the 911 dispatch of the dead body, "I'm think-- I was looking -- thinking who lived around that area, and my first guess would be an overdose." (during his 7 block ride from the police statement) :ohmy: Sounds like a real safe hood to leave your 8yo child alone.

Who lives in the area? The LEO sitting in Sgt Rod's passenger seat among others'

[Kether]

That is not a conspiracy though. A conspiracy is a bunch of people plotting to do something. The grandparents - yep, I said they were weird. Pretty odd for grandparents to think a grandchild would do such a thing, with no reason for that other than that a child who has just seen their dead father actually cried all night. That's weird. But it's not a conspiracy. And others who know the child well do not share their beliefs.

The POs - simple truth, they are not trained in interrogating children. You should watch the whole interrogation - not the little snippet that is quite carefully selected. And read about how the POs did indeed lie in it, on two key elements - to say they had ballistics info back to know that it was just the one gun used, so it was all his fault, and to say they had a witness who saw him kill the two men. I can't believe anyone has worked with children much, if they haven't seen how they'll accept and make up a story to fit what they are told is true by adults. No conspiracy here, just simple good old incompetence. They used the same tactics they were used to using on adult suspects (lie, use physical posturing to intimidate the suspect, etc.) - without following the requirements for civil rights they'd have had to follow for an adult.

The DA - he's going for what is easiest, and gets him the most PR, IMO. An unsolved double-murder with a bunch of suspects but nothing solid - that's tough. Catching an 8 year old killer - that gets him nationwide media attention - and slipping the confession tape out to the media to convince people that he's right. You could see a similar confession tape for the Harris case. Two children confessed to a violent rape and murder, when police questioned them. The DA went for it in that case too - laziness - they've got a confession, so they use it - without regard for if it's likely to be true or not. I don't know if it's a desire for PR, laziness, or if he's one of those people who believes all confessions are real, in spite of the massive evidence to the contrary - but whatever it is, he's far from the first DA to incorrectly decide that a child's confession is real and persue it. Harris, Crowe, and many others that haven't recieved as much media attention.

The media - that's no conspiracy either. The media generally assumes if you are charged, you're guilty. And they have one interest - they want whatever gets ratings. The scary story of a child as a cold-blooded killer - that's ratings. The story of a possibly false confession, uncertainty - not such great ratings.


I don't know what type of children you worked with - but they were not this little boy - statistically speaking. It's been almost 20 years since the last time an 8 year old child killed a parent - and that case involved violent abuse. So, obviously, there are not a bunch of 8 year old killers out there. But there are some pretty impressive stats about the number of false confessions out there. Putting police trained to get the truth from hardened adult criminals using all kinds of highly persuasive, effective, manipulative techniques, in the same room as a child, taught to respect and trust adults and accustomed to having to go with what they were told - it's a recipe for false confessions!

Thank you, thank you! I couldn't agree more and I couldn't have said it this well!

[Pag Boi]

Nov. 8th

"This is precedent-setting. We're going to charge an 8-year-old with two counts of homicide," Police Chief Roy Melnick said.


Same link Chief that was on the scene and made Sgt Rod do 2nd security ck allages that the AZ law generally states children under 10 lack competency but an exception will be made of the "facts and circumstances of this case"
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/11/08/20081108kidmurder1108

Yet we're still waiting for all the exceptional evidence on Dec. 25th?


Other LE, in testimony, said the only thing linking him to the crime was the confession. According to LE, the Tanya comments merely made them think he was withholding what he saw someone else do.

It's precedent setting alright. Just not how Chief Roy intended JMOO

[Justice_Dawg]

All the sadder to me that DN couldn't describe her own case LOL. On the 7th, she ID'd the porch victim as TED Romans.

She finds a dead man on a porch and engages in a security ck with her coworker to clear the premises. She never draws her weapon or gives him backup as he moves through the crime scene. Mebbe her roving eye would have caught that closed door that Sgt Rod overlooked on his first walk thru. Or perhaps protected him should he come across an assailant :shrug:

LOL A detective for one day and never drew her gun. Didn't even help check the house. :thumbdown: St John's Finest, :lol: