Dec 15th-21st

[Crispy]

Oh my! We need some things to happen with this case. I'm growing quite tired of waiting.

[bkwits]

Oh my! We need some things to happen with this case. I'm growing quite tired of waiting.

I've been trolling other websites and blogs. What I have found that most posters are overwhelming against charging the child with murder, and most are skeptical of the "confession." I would say those who watched the video are extremely skeptical.

Now, am I correct in saying that the shell casings were found near the bodies. Wouldn't that mean the two men were each shot at close range?

[Crispy]

They did say most were found near TR. With VR, they were at the top and bottom of the staircase IIRC, I'm not sure the distance from there to his body.

I wonder if they are going to release some of the evidence reports when they get them back. I would like to see the boys clothes and some more witness statements, especially Tanya Romans

[muska]

There is a new request for additional disclosure at the Supreme Court site. Is this how court proceedings always occur. You'd think the prosecution could share new info without waiting for a formal request.

[bkwits]

I know very little about firearms. Can anyone tell me if a .22 handgun could have been used. Does a handgun leave shell casings, or only a long gun?

[CANDYKISSES]

Oh my! We need some things to happen with this case. I'm growing quite tired of waiting.

Nancy Grace is on Dr. Phil right now discussing this case and the pros and cons too. :scared:

[Crispy]

UGG I'm sorry I missed that. Maybe I can catch it on a replay or on his website.

[Justice_Dawg]

You lost me. I thought nobody was talking.:blushing:

[suzanne]

Well,that's nice.I missed it too.What did she say?

[LindaNJ1216]

Discussing the case on Dr. Phil now.

[LindaNJ1216]

I'm at work...what are they saying?

right now they're talking about the boy that was kept chained up and escaped running to a gym.

[Justice_Dawg]

On the title thread it says "trial 12/22", is that true? I haven't heard much lately in the media. Can someone please post a link with the trial date. Thanks much!

12/22 is a status hearing to see if the boy is competent to stand trial.

It was the trial date long ago, this stuff is just taking forever!
They said ballistics won't be in until the end of January!:cursing:

[bkwits]

12/22 is a status hearing to see if the boy is competent to stand trial.

It was the trial date long ago, this stuff is just taking forever!
They said ballistics won't be in until the end of January!:cursing:


And in the latest posting of the Dec. 8 status hearing, Pros. was saying how the state crime labs had pushed this case "to the front". It typically takes a YEAR, they said. :cursing:

[bkwits]

Oh, BTW, also in the Dec. 8 hearing, Pros. wants to drop both murder counts. Judge wants competency hearing first.

IMO, Brewer needs help with this case.

[wolfi_2]

here is the link to the story

http://www.drphil.com/slideshows/slideshow/4852/?id=4852&slide=2&showID=1189&preview=&versionID=

[Justice_Dawg]

Oh, BTW, also in the Dec. 8 hearing, Pros. wants to drop both murder counts. Judge wants competency hearing first.

IMO, Brewer needs help with this case.

Why do you say that?

[LindaNJ1216]

Not much really. Everyone was pretty much in agreement that the kid needs long term help and the argument came when NG said it needed to be mandated through the court to insure it would happen.

I didn't actually hear the entire thing...I was on the phone for a good part of it:blushing:

[bkwits]

Why do you say that?


Well, the judge seemed to take Brewer to task about a couple of things...i.e. Why wasn't Brewer nagging the crime lab like he (the judge) used to do. I assume that was when he was a lawyer.

He kept asking Brewer if he was a clone. IOW, how could he be in two places at once or two people. Carylon and Candelaria are at every hearing and meeting, it seems. Now, I don't think this was a reflection on Brewer. I think Brewer is overwhelmed with it. IMO

[muska]

Well, the judge seemed to take Brewer to task about a couple of things...i.e. Why wasn't Brewer nagging the crime lab like he (the judge) used to do. I assume that was when he was a lawyer.

He kept asking Brewer if he was a clone. IOW, how could he be in two places at once or two people. Carylon and Candelaria are at every hearing and meeting, it seems. Now, I don't think this was a reflection on Brewer. I think Brewer is overwhelmed with it. IMO

I haven't had a chance to read much but at the beginning, the judge also seemed to think that Dr. Cady should have had more info than just the interview with the boy. Seemed to think it could be a problem at trial. From the transcript of the 19th, the judge also seemed annoyed that Brewer didn't seem that interested in getting the boy's records. Hopefully, he's doing things this way, for whatever reason, in the boy's best interest and not for a lack of time.

[muska]

I read somewhere that there are like 2 or 3 trials per year in Apache County....everything, pretty much, is decided by plea bargains. Do you think the number of cases that go to trial can really be that low?

[Justice_Dawg]

Well, the judge seemed to take Brewer to task about a couple of things...i.e. Why wasn't Brewer nagging the crime lab like he (the judge) used to do. I assume that was when he was a lawyer.

He kept asking Brewer if he was a clone. IOW, how could he be in two places at once or two people. Carylon and Candelaria are at every hearing and meeting, it seems. Now, I don't think this was a reflection on Brewer. I think Brewer is overwhelmed with it. IMO


The judge was a prosecutor. Page 12.

[Justice_Dawg]

Not much really. Everyone was pretty much in agreement that the kid needs long term help and the argument came when NG said it needed to be mandated through the court to insure it would happen.

I didn't actually hear the entire thing...I was on the phone for a good part of it:blushing:

They know nothing about the case.

Moo

[bkwits]

They know nothing about the case.

Moo

From the blurb I read about the Dr. Phil show today, I would very much agree with you.

[bkwits]

The judge was a prosecutor. Page 12.

Thanks, it takes a sharp eye to catch that. :thumbup:

[Justice_Dawg]

Lt. Donny Jones withholding something?
hmmmmmmmmmmm

[bkwits]

Lt. Donny Jones withholding something?
hmmmmmmmmmmm


What, what?

[Justice_Dawg]

What, what?
Defense is requesting more info from that Lt.
Specifically.

REQUEST FOR ADDITIONAL DISCLOSURE.pdf

IMO= Good sign.
What does he know, and whay does he have?
----------------

Now the in-chambers meeting. The Boy is in danger. I'd bet my life on it.

Did you notice where Carlyon said to the judge something about NOT having enough info before charging the boy in open court. :scared:

[muska]

Short article about Candelaria:

www.votewhiting.com/blog/2008/04/15/candelaria-in-trouble-again/

Read the comments at the bottom. One compares him to Mike Nyfong.

[Justice_Dawg]

Short article about Candelaria:

www.votewhiting.com/blog/2008/04/15/candelaria-in-trouble-again/

Read the comments at the bottom. One compares him to Mike Nyfong.

:cursing::thumbdown::cursing: I am so glad he lost the election!!!

[bkwits]

Defense is requesting more info from that Lt.
Specifically.

REQUEST FOR ADDITIONAL DISCLOSURE.pdf

IMO= Good sign.
What does he know, and whay does he have?
----------------

Now the in-chambers meeting. The Boy is in danger. I'd bet my life on it.

Did you notice where Carlyon said to the judge something about NOT having enough info before charging the boy in open court. :scared:

Yeah, I do but not clearly. I'm going back to read it again. :chicken:

[bkwits]

Defense is requesting more info from that Lt.
Specifically.

REQUEST FOR ADDITIONAL DISCLOSURE.pdf

IMO= Good sign.
What does he know, and whay does he have?
----------------

Now the in-chambers meeting. The Boy is in danger. I'd bet my life on it.

Did you notice where Carlyon said to the judge something about NOT having enough info before charging the boy in open court. :scared:


Was that at the bottom of pg 21, top of page 22 in the status hearing of 12/8?

[Justice_Dawg]

Was that at the bottom of pg 21, top of page 22 in the status hearing of 12/8?

You got it. :wink:

[muska]

I was very pleasantly surprised that Nancy Grace said the first goal is help for the boy and that he doesn't belong in a juvenile detention center. In the past, I've usually found her very negative. I wonder if this Paul Mones would help out on this case if he were asked.....he has 25 years experience in cases like this. You can't really beat that. It was encouraging that all of the experts agreed that the boy does not belong in detention.

[suzanne]

Yeah,I am glad Nancy Grace said that too.

[muska]

I finally got to read the transcript from the 8th. It seemed pretty casual for Carlyon to say he "thought" he could get to the court on the 22nd, that he "hoped" he would have a babysitter for his kids. He had two weeks from the 8th. That comment just bothered me.

[Justice_Dawg]

I was very pleasantly surprised that Nancy Grace said the first goal is help for the boy and that he doesn't belong in a juvenile detention center. In the past, I've usually found her very negative. I wonder if this Paul Mones would help out on this case if he were asked.....he has 25 years experience in cases like this. You can't really beat that. It was encouraging that all of the experts agreed that the boy does not belong in detention.Not bashing Wood or Brewer, but someone high profile should step up and rattle some cages. :thumbup:

[Justice_Dawg]

I finally got to read the transcript from the 8th. It seemed pretty casual for Carlyon to say he "thought" he could get to the court on the 22nd, that he "hoped" he would have a babysitter for his kids. He had two weeks from the 8th. That comment just bothered me.

Did you take it as he isn't taking this case seriously?

[muska]

Not bashing Wood or Brewer, but someone high profile should step up and rattle some cages. :thumbup:


Maybe this show will get other talk show hosts to take an interest in this case.

[muska]

Did you take it as he isn't taking this case seriously?

like he doesn't want to be too inconvenienced....I hope that's not how he feels but who knows at this point........maybe he didn't mean anything by it

[Justice_Dawg]

like he doesn't want to be too inconvenienced....I hope that's not how he feels but who knows at this point........maybe he didn't mean anything by it

IMO- He knows all charges will be dropped and cannot ever be refiled due to the boys incompetency.

He made his bed... :tonguewag:

[suzanne]

I was very pleasantly surprised that Nancy Grace said the first goal is help for the boy and that he doesn't belong in a juvenile detention center. In the past, I've usually found her very negative. I wonder if this Paul Mones would help out on this case if he were asked.....he has 25 years experience in cases like this. You can't really beat that. It was encouraging that all of the experts agreed that the boy does not belong in detention.


Maybe Casey Anthony's "DREAM DEFENSE TEAM" with Baden and "THE MAN" Henry LEE can be of use and help this little boy.

[Justice_Dawg]

Autopsy reports are in.

[suzanne]

Do you know what they say?

[Justice_Dawg]

Do you know what they say?

No, But I am waiting for a leak. :biggrin:

[suzanne]

No, But I am waiting for a leak. :biggrin:

Ok.LOL :smile:

[Details]

Nice little leaks like maybe what angle the shots were fired at? That'd be nice. Somewhat irrelevant on the father - the killer was firing from the top of the stairs and from the landing at the middle of the stairs, according to where shell casings were found - but for Tim it might be more telling.

[muska]

Nice little leaks like maybe what angle the shots were fired at? That'd be nice. Somewhat irrelevant on the father - the killer was firing from the top of the stairs and from the landing at the middle of the stairs, according to where shell casings were found - but for Tim it might be more telling.

In the Neckels interview, Neckels agreed with the boy's lawyer that the bodies were removed too quickly, before thorough testing could be completed. It seems like that haste might effect whether they had the necessary info to assess angles.

[Crispy]

No, But I am waiting for a leak. :biggrin:

Can I wait with you?

[Justice_Dawg]

Can I wait with you?

LOL, Sure.


I think the boy left today for his evaluation tomorrow.

17th right?

[bkwits]

Bunch of new filings on the Apache Ct. Website.

Going to read them now.


:chicken: :chicken:

[Justice_Dawg]

GO BREWER!!!

OBJECTION TO STAY OF PROCEEDINGS.pdf

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Details]

If I'm understanding it right - they're running up against the right to a speedy trial - is that what the 45 days is? And objecting to a stay is holding their feet to the fire, keeping that limit in there. With what they say about how long it takes to get evidence, it's completely unjust that the boy could be held all that time with no bail, while they wait for results. And if this weren't such a high profile case, it'd be even longer!

Let the kid out, and if you think you've really got a case, gather the evidence up and charge him properly - after you've got all cell phone records, fingerprints, ballistics, autopsy (which they finally have), and analysis done!

[bkwits]

Defense is hampered by having to ask in advance for funding for every expense, such as experts, transcription fees, etc. Are the child's attorneys court-appointed?

[Justice_Dawg]

Defense is hampered by having to ask in advance for funding for every expense, such as experts, transcription fees, etc. Are the child's attorneys court-appointed?

Yes they are.

[Justice_Dawg]

If I'm understanding it right - they're running up against the right to a speedy trial - is that what the 45 days is? And objecting to a stay is holding their feet to the fire, keeping that limit in there. With what they say about how long it takes to get evidence, it's completely unjust that the boy could be held all that time with no bail, while they wait for results. And if this weren't such a high profile case, it'd be even longer!

Let the kid out, and if you think you've really got a case, gather the evidence up and charge him properly - after you've got all cell phone records, fingerprints, ballistics, autopsy (which they finally have), and analysis done!

Yes, speedy trial should have started 12/22. As we know the testing won't even be back until the END of January.

I agree, let the kid out. They have got Nothing.

[Justice_Dawg]

REQUEST FOR AN EXPERT.pdf

Shooting incident evaluation and reconstruction.

Something must not be matching up.:wink:

[Justice_Dawg]

I see the State didn't file an appeal on the stay of the motion to dismiss.

:thumbsup:

[muska]

Defense is hampered by having to ask in advance for funding for every expense, such as experts, transcription fees, etc. Are the child's attorneys court-appointed?

Do you know how funding works for court-appointed attorneys? Will they necessarilly get the money for experts and the things like the shooting reconstruction? It doesn't seem like you could call it a fair trial if they didn't. Do you know if there's anyplace else for them to get funding?

[Crispy]

I went to bed early and missed all the new filings!!

[bkwits]

Do you know how funding works for court-appointed attorneys? Will they necessarilly get the money for experts and the things like the shooting reconstruction? It doesn't seem like you could call it a fair trial if they didn't. Do you know if there's anyplace else for them to get funding?

I'm sorry but I don't know for sure how that works. I believe the judge has to approve every request for experts. Surely, it is not fair. That is why the poor get convicted at a higher rate than those with assets. IMO

Maybe someone else could give a more complete answer. Justice Dawg, are you listening?

[Justice_Dawg]

I'm sorry but I don't know for sure how that works. I believe the judge has to approve every request for experts. Surely, it is not fair. That is why the poor get convicted at a higher rate than those with assets. IMO

Maybe someone else could give a more complete answer. Justice Dawg, are you listening?

Yes, but I didn't want to step on your toes. :lol:

[bkwits]

Yes, but I didn't want to step on your toes. :lol:


Go right ahead, I have big feet anyway. :laugh:

[Justice_Dawg]

Do you know how funding works for court-appointed attorneys? Will they necessarilly get the money for experts and the things like the shooting reconstruction? It doesn't seem like you could call it a fair trial if they didn't. Do you know if there's anyplace else for them to get funding?

Court appointed attorneys are paid by the state (public defenders are paid FAR less than prosecutors) Public defenders have to ask for money from the state for any specialist they wish to call. Usually money is only ok'd by the judge if they are asking for a specialist to debunk a State specialist. (This, I guess, makes it "fair"):rolleyes:

Public defenders are not allowed to take money from anyone but the State.

Anyone accused person can ask the court for money for specialists. Even if you have your own paid attorney. (Most states make you show you are flat broke before they will give it to you)

Hope this helps! :biggrin:

[muska]

Court appointed attorneys are paid by the state (public defenders are paid FAR less than prosecutors) Public defenders have to ask for money from the state for any specialist they wish to call. Usually money is only ok'd by the judge if they are asking for a specialist to debunk a State specialist. (This, I guess, makes it "fair"):rolleyes:

Public defenders are not allowed to take money from anyone but the State.

Anyone accused person can ask the court for money for specialists. Even if you have your own paid attorney. (Most states make you show you are flat broke before they will give it to you)

Hope this helps! :biggrin:


So if defense wants to hire an expert to reconstruct the shooting, do you think they'll be able to? Thanks very much!

I hope everything is going okay for the boy today in Phoenix. I guess prosecution must think this psychiatrist is the one most likely to help them later. The time of year makes this all even sadder.

[PensiveOne]

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/12/17/20081217childcharged.html

[Justice_Dawg]

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/12/17/20081217childcharged.html

I knew that was coming. :cursing:

[PensiveOne]

I knew that was coming. :cursing:

It sounds like there will be a lot going on Monday. Poor kid. I am still praying for this little boy.:bored:

[Justice_Dawg]

So if defense wants to hire an expert to reconstruct the shooting, do you think they'll be able to? Thanks very much!

I hope everything is going okay for the boy today in Phoenix. I guess prosecution must think this psychiatrist is the one most likely to help them later. The time of year makes this all even sadder.

IMO-The judge will ok that. It has to do with trajectory of the shots, ect.

I think the boy will walk by the 22nd. :thumbsup:

[Justice_Dawg]

It sounds like there will be a lot going on Monday. Poor kid. I am still praying for this little boy.:bored:

The boys mom's my space use to say "Praying for Justice"
Now it says "Praying for EVERYONE"

[bkwits]

Does anyone know where Tiffany works or worked when the killings happened? And what here schedule was that day. Apparently she didn't work until 5 pm.

[Justice_Dawg]

Does anyone know where Tiffany works or worked when the killings happened? And what here schedule was that day. Apparently she didn't work until 5 pm.

Yes, I'll have to find it. :blink:

[muska]

IMO-The judge will ok that. It has to do with trajectory of the shots, ect.

I think the boy will walk by the 22nd. :thumbsup:

You think that's possible, even without the competency testing?

[Details]

They're delaying the 22nd, if I'm understanding the article correctly, by just a little bit, because of today's delay. It doesn't sound like it's more than a day or so.

[Justice_Dawg]

You think that's possible, even without the competency testing?

They said the testing will take 1-2 hours. Maybe the guy will come to St John. They can do it early morning, then have the status confrence in the after noon. It shouldn't take long to say INCOMPETENT!

I HOPE SO ANYWAY! :cursing:

[Justice_Dawg]

They're delaying the 22nd, if I'm understanding the article correctly, by just a little bit, because of today's delay. It doesn't sound like it's more than a day or so.

Where did you see that? :confused:

From that link:
Apache County Superior Court administrator Betty Smith said the evaluation has been rescheduled for Monday. A status conference in the case is also set for Monday in St. Johns

[Details]

Hmmm - rereading - I don't see it. I must be mistaken.

I was thinking of the case being on hold until evaluations are completed. But maybe they can synchronize - eval in the morning, status thing in the afternoon.

[suzanne]

It sounds like there will be a lot going on Monday. Poor kid. I am still praying for this little boy.:bored:

I'm praying for him too.It's just sad it's all happening around christmas time.

[Justice_Dawg]

I'm praying for him too.It's just sad it's all happening around christmas time.

He should be able to be home for good before Christmas!

We are doing a reinactment tomorrow. SO's son just home from Iraq and knows someone with a chipmunk gun. :biggrin:

[suzanne]

He should be able to be home for good before Christmas!

We are doing a reinactment tomorrow. SO's son just home from Iraq and knows someone with a chipmunk gun. :biggrin:

That would be nice.His mother has a myspace?

[JD1974]

He should be able to be home for good before Christmas!

We are doing a reinactment tomorrow. SO's son just home from Iraq and knows someone with a chipmunk gun. :biggrin:


I just do not see how after the first shot, especially if he had to reload, why no one just grabbed the gun from the kid? I mean I know you would be in pain but it is a 22! Unless the first shot was a kill shot, which we know it wasn't because of the blood trail WHY couldn't one of these men get the gun from this kid? Put yourself there for a second, say you are Tim, the kid shoots you, you a) run for cover (truck is right behind him with a gun in it) b) run for the kid and knock the gun out of his hands...we know someone who was bleeding left the blood trail so there was motion after shot(s) were fired..why run right into the bullets if the kid is firing too rapidly to get the gun away, instead of going toward the vehicle with a GUN??? I just don't get it!

NOW if it an adult who you know you can't get the gun away from easily and also the person is shooting from the area of the truck..hmm where would a white car be parked..where would you run too, straight toward the house to get away from the gunfire...that is the only thing that makes sense to me.

[Details]

Or, as Tim, you are shot, and you duck for cover behind your truck, use the cell phone you were just on, and call police!

[Justice_Dawg]

i just do not see how after the first shot, especially if he had to reload, why no one just grabbed the gun from the kid? I mean i know you would be in pain but it is a 22! Unless the first shot was a kill shot, which we know it wasn't because of the blood trail why couldn't one of these men get the gun from this kid? Put yourself there for a second, say you are tim, the kid shoots you, you a) run for cover (truck is right behind him with a gun in it) b) run for the kid and knock the gun out of his hands...we know someone who was bleeding left the blood trail so there was motion after shot(s) were fired..why run right into the bullets if the kid is firing too rapidly to get the gun away, instead of going toward the vehicle with a gun??? I just don't get it!

Now if it an adult who you know you can't get the gun away from easily and also the person is shooting from the area of the truck..hmm where would a white car be parked..where would you run too, straight toward the house to get away from the gunfire...that is the only thing that makes sense to me.

ita !!!!!!!

[Justice_Dawg]

Or, as Tim, you are shot, and you duck for cover behind your truck, use the cell phone you were just on, and call police!

That's a good idea too.

To just keep walking into gunfire is just plain RIDICULOUS!

[JD1974]

Or, as Tim, you are shot, and you duck for cover behind your truck, use the cell phone you were just on, and call police!


No kidding! If you can't reach the gun in the truck at least get behind it and call 911, thats why I seriously think someone was shooting from OUTSIDE right by where a white car would park, the white car the little boy seen, anyone close to the family have a white car I wonder..now shooting from outside you would run for the HOUSE.

[Justice_Dawg]

Mental evaluation ordered of boy, 8, accused of killing

.

http://www.gallupindependent.com/2008/12december/121708mentalevaluation.html

[bkwits]

No kidding! If you can't reach the gun in the truck at least get behind it and call 911, thats why I seriously think someone was shooting from OUTSIDE right by where a white car would park, the white car the little boy seen, anyone close to the family have a white car I wonder..now shooting from outside you would run for the HOUSE.

Wasn't Tim shot in the back?

[Justice_Dawg]

No kidding! If you can't reach the gun in the truck at least get behind it and call 911, thats why I seriously think someone was shooting from OUTSIDE right by where a white car would park, the white car the little boy seen, anyone close to the family have a white car I wonder..now shooting from outside you would run for the HOUSE.

Grandpa Leroy has the same type white car.

[Justice_Dawg]

Wasn't Tim shot in the back?

Where is that testimony at???
I have SO much in my head. :cursing:

[suzanne]

Grandpa Leroy has the same type white car.

Yes,The little boy in the confession tape said the white car looked kind of like his grandpa's car.

[muska]

Grandpa Leroy has the same type white car.


It seems odd to me the Grandpa Leroy tried to keep the boy from talking the second time with the police but then at the first court hearing he didn't even want to be on the list to visit the child. At first it seemed like he was trying to protect the boy but then......it just seems a little strange. Why would he think the kid needed to be questioned by a psychologist and then agree with this confession so easily? Sorry if I'm rambling!

[Kara]

The boys mom's my space use to say "Praying for Justice"
Now it says "Praying for EVERYONE"Hmm...that's an intriguing change. What do you suppose it means?

[JD1974]

Wasn't Tim shot in the back?



If he was doesn't go to the theory that he was running away from the shooter toward the house??

[muska]

Wasn't Tim shot in the back?

Found an old story - Tim Romans was shot once in the arm, twice in the chest, three times in the back of the head.

[bkwits]

Found an old story - Tim Romans was shot once in the arm, twice in the chest, three times in the back of the head.

Thank you, maybe that is where I got that Tim was shot in the back. I am thinking it was in Chief Melnick's testimony but I can't find that right now.

[muska]

The bodies were removed from the house before DPS got there. Both Brewer and Neckels agreed that was a problem. Brewer said more could have been found out by DPS if they'd been able to see just how the bodies were found. Why on earth would the police chief have had the bodies removed so quickly?

Are DPS agencies usually objective in criminal cases or do they more or less work for prosecution?

[bkwits]

If he was doesn't go to the theory that he was running away from the shooter toward the house??

Could have been shot in chest getting out of truck then shot in back of head running toward house?

[bkwits]

Another thing that makes me wonder about the child as the shooter, is that he immediately ran to the neighbor's house. Which seems like a very normal response to finding dead bodies. A person, especially a child, would want to get out of the house immediately. IMO

[muska]

Could have been shot in chest getting out of truck then shot in back of head running toward house?

The article also said only one shot hit Tim Romans at close range. I guess that means whoever was shooting hit him twice in the head from some distance. Still doesn't add up.

[muska]

It seems odd to me the Grandpa Leroy tried to keep the boy from talking the second time with the police but then at the first court hearing he didn't even want to be on the list to visit the child. At first it seemed like he was trying to protect the boy but then......it just seems a little strange. Why would he think the kid needed to be questioned by a psychologist and then agree with this confession so easily? Sorry if I'm rambling!

Then he told Neckles something about the boy being a good shot. Wierd to go from protecting the kid to giving the same cop info that could help incriminate the boy....maybe just a little suspicious.

[Justice_Dawg]

Another thing that makes me wonder about the child as the shooter, is that he immediately ran to the neighbor's house. Which seems like a very normal response to finding dead bodies. A person, especially a child, would want to get out of the house immediately. IMO

I agree.

Remember the transcripts from Nov. 8th? They say some something, then shut up real quick about something behind the porch bush.
(A casing?? a person???).

There was a shot INTO the screen door.

[Justice_Dawg]

I agree.

Remember the transcripts from Nov. 8th? They say some something, then shut up real quick about something behind the porch bush.
(A casing?? a person???).

There was a shot INTO the screen door.Found it!

TRANSCRIPT OF DETAINED ADVISORY HEARING NOV 2 2008_VOL2 PARTB.pdf
Pages 149-151

(They messed up! NOV 2 2008??? It hadn't even happened yet)

[penguin01]

This gets crazier and crazier the more I try to catch up. Is LE looking for truth here? Or to prove some theory to convict this child? And who is on the boy's side? Nice for people to wish him home for Christmas - but where is the safe home at this point? All the adults around him seem to be untrustworthy..

[bkwits]

Found it!

TRANSCRIPT OF DETAINED ADVISORY HEARING NOV 2 2008_VOL2 PARTB.pdf
Pages 149-151

(They messed up! NOV 2 2008??? It hadn't even happened yet)

GIRL, you are amazing. :thumbsup:

[bkwits]

This gets crazier and crazier the more I try to catch up. Is LE looking for truth here? Or to prove some theory to convict this child? And who is on the boy's side? Nice for people to wish him home for Christmas - but where is the safe home at this point? All the adults around him seem to be untrustworthy..

I believe this case is somewhat comparable to the Ryan Harris murder case 10 yrs ago in Chicago, because the boys accused in that case were 7 and 8 years old.
1. They coerced and led the boys into confessing without anyone present other than LE.
2. There was no physical evidence to implicate them. In fact the ME told LE that it was improbable that the boys did it
3. LE ignored the implausibilty of two very small (for their age) boys overpowering a big (for her age) very athletic 11 year old, and moving her body to a vacant lot.

IOW, Chicago LE tried to make the accused fit the crime or vice versa. A serial rapist was later convicted of Ryan's murder.

So it seems sometimes that LE or Pros latches onto something and doesn't let go. IMO

[Justice_Dawg]

I believe this case is somewhat comparable to the Ryan Harris murder case 10 yrs ago in Chicago, because the boys accused in that case were 7 and 8 years old.
1. They coerced and led the boys into confessing without anyone present other than LE.
2. There was no physical evidence to implicate them. In fact the ME told LE that it was improbable that the boys did it
3. LE ignored the implausibilty of two very small (for their age) boys overpowering a big (for her age) very athletic 11 year old, and moving her body to a vacant lot.

IOW, Chicago LE tried to make the accused fit the crime or vice versa. A serial rapist was later convicted of Ryan's murder.

So it seems sometimes that LE or Pros latches onto something and doesn't let go. IMO
I doubt they are looking for anyone else. That to me is very scary. IMO- The boy could be in danger.

I have never seen/read such (how can I say this nicely?) unintelligent LE in my life. Mayberry USA. I feel SO bad for this boy.

[muska]

I believe this case is somewhat comparable to the Ryan Harris murder case 10 yrs ago in Chicago, because the boys accused in that case were 7 and 8 years old.
1. They coerced and led the boys into confessing without anyone present other than LE.
2. There was no physical evidence to implicate them. In fact the ME told LE that it was improbable that the boys did it
3. LE ignored the implausibilty of two very small (for their age) boys overpowering a big (for her age) very athletic 11 year old, and moving her body to a vacant lot.

IOW, Chicago LE tried to make the accused fit the crime or vice versa. A serial rapist was later convicted of Ryan's murder.

So it seems sometimes that LE or Pros latches onto something and doesn't let go. IMO

Am I remembering correctly that in the Ryan Harris case, the boys' parents at first believed the police? Do you, or anyone else, remember if that's right?

[bkwits]

Am I remembering correctly that in the Ryan Harris case, the boys' parents at first believed the police? Do you, or anyone else, remember if that's right?

I don't know about that. One of the boy's Grandma was outside the room when they were questioning him and asked to go in, but they wouldn't let her.
Well, Ryan's mother said that when she saw how little the boys were, that she did not believe they did it. She didn't believe they could overpower Ryan. LE said they killed her with a brick.

[bkwits]

Yes, and I had a link to some womans blog that worked with her. The woman said Tiffany sent them a "fax" after the murders. I thought it was weird.
I have to find it again.


I think I read that blog. It was Bethany something IIRC. I wasn't sure if the fax was before or after she knew of the murders. Here it is
http://bethanygentry.blogspot.com/2008/11/tragic.html

Ps Hear about Drew P. He's engaged to a 23 yo.

[JD1974]

Could have been shot in chest getting out of truck then shot in back of head running toward house?


That is a good theory, he gets shot in the front, starts running and as he is running toward the house gets shot in the arm then the head? I just cannot make it fit with the boy shooting from inside the house like the prosecutor is saying (the luring him into the house to shoot him) after the first shot, I don't care who you are, you will try and go for cover, you will NOT run towards the shots. Tim had to know which way the shots were coming from based on where he was shot...

[JD1974]

Yes, and I had a link to some womans blog that worked with her. The woman said Tiffany sent them a "fax" after the murders. I thought it was weird.
I have to find it again.


Sent them a fax from where? If she was at the store when all this happened then how (if it came from her work) could she send a fax after? Alibi for herself?

[Justice_Dawg]

Sent them a fax from where? If she was at the store when all this happened then how (if it came from her work) could she send a fax after? Alibi for herself?

I don't know from where, but I know it was after the murders. I am going to PM the person that sent me that link because I can't find it now.

You know, I found an article last night where she told police something that night that pointed to the boy. I'll go get it.

[Justice_Dawg]

I don't know from where, but I know it was after the murders. I am going to PM the person that sent me that link because I can't find it now.

You know, I found an article last night where she told police something that night that pointed to the boy. I'll go get it.

Police records reveal that investigators considered several other possibilities for the double slaying. Officers said they looked into whether the home had been burglarized and if either victim had problems at work, but quickly narrowed the case to the boy, records stated.

His stepmom Tiffany also spoke to police about a possible incident with the boy's biological mother. A commander's report said, "Tiffany told me about a police report that was filed approximately three years ago regarding Eryn possibly kidnapping (the boy)."

http://www.kpho.com/news/18170747/detail.html

[bkwits]

Does anyone know where Tiffany works/worked?

[Crispy]

I believe it was some kind of physical therapy but I'm not positive. I'll keep looking and post if I find it.

[bkwits]

I believe it was some kind of physical therapy but I'm not positive. I'll keep looking and post if I find it.


Yes, I seem to recall something about PT. She seemed to have a flexible schedule. TYVM:biggrin:

[Justice_Dawg]

Yes, I seem to recall something about PT. She seemed to have a flexible schedule. TYVM:biggrin:

I take it she is a suspect of yours? :lol::lol:

[JD1974]

I take it she is a suspect of yours? :lol::lol:



She has definitely made my short list which has grown to include her and whoever drives the white car! Actually I have to admit, they are the only 2 on my list...

[Justice_Dawg]

I think I read that blog. It was Bethany something IIRC. I wasn't sure if the fax was before or after she knew of the murders. Here it is
http://bethanygentry.blogspot.com/2008/11/tragic.html

Ps Hear about Drew P. He's engaged to a 23 yo.


Everything happened around 5 PM that day, but Tiffany sent us a fax out of no where, and she
said she just "felt" like it had to be said, and she said it hit her hard. It is amazing to me how the
spirit can prompt us in all sorts of ways. There were feelings this whole day that she should just call her husband and apologize, and say I love you, thirty minutes before the incident happened. And the little boy had a feeling to not go home yet, so he walked around the block for a long time.I just am thankful we have the gospel in our lives.
A FAX?? How Personal is that??? :scared:

[bkwits]

I take it she is a suspect of yours? :lol::lol:

Well, I don't know. It just seems like she was quick to throw the child to the wolves. It seems like he was close to her and dependent on her.

Maybe she just knows more than she is telling. New disclosure up but doesn't tell us anything. I can't get a feel for where she was that day. I read in one blog or post (way back) that she came into work and brought donuts or something, then left. She obviously had an argument with Vincent the night before. I would just like to know more about her day.

I am puzzled by this whole thing. Part of me thinks someone was after Tim. IDK :shrug:

[Justice_Dawg]

Well, I don't know. It just seems like she was quick to throw the child to the wolves. It seems like he was close to her and dependent on her.

Maybe she just knows more than she is telling. New disclosure up but doesn't tell us anything. I can't get a feel for where she was that day. I read in one blog or post (way back) that she came into work and brought donuts or something, then left. She obviously had an argument with Vincent the night before. I would just like to know more about her day.

I am puzzled by this whole thing. Part of me thinks someone was after Tim. IDK :shrug:

I wonder if Tim asking that Candy to marry him, and Tiffany and Vincent's fight are connected? All happened the same night.

[JD1974]

Everything happened around 5 PM that day, but Tiffany sent us a fax out of no where, and she
said she just "felt" like it had to be said, and she said it hit her hard. It is amazing to me how the
spirit can prompt us in all sorts of ways. There were feelings this whole day that she should just call her husband and apologize, and say I love you, thirty minutes before the incident happened. And the little boy had a feeling to not go home yet, so he walked around the block for a long time.I just am thankful we have the gospel in our lives.
A FAX?? How Personal is that??? :scared:



She just felt she should of apologized for an argument? Why else would one apologize...so that means they argued that day also.

ETA I hate when I post after someone else has already stated it lol

[bkwits]

I wonder if Tim asking that Candy to marry him, and Tiffany and Vincent's fight are connected? All happened the same night.

Nah, I don't really think so. IMO, Vincent and Tiffany fought regularly. I'd sure like to know about the domestic violence calls a the house.

[Justice_Dawg]

Nah, I don't really think so. IMO, Vincent and Tiffany fought regularly. I'd sure like to know about the domestic violence calls a the house.

How do you know they didn't fight about Tim living there?

[Justice_Dawg]

She just felt she should of apologized for an argument? Why else would one apologize...so that means they argued that day also.

ETA I hate when I post after someone else has already stated it lol

:lol::lol::lol:

[bkwits]

Everything happened around 5 PM that day, but Tiffany sent us a fax out of no where, and she
said she just "felt" like it had to be said, and she said it hit her hard. It is amazing to me how the
spirit can prompt us in all sorts of ways. There were feelings this whole day that she should just call her husband and apologize, and say I love you, thirty minutes before the incident happened. And the little boy had a feeling to not go home yet, so he walked around the block for a long time.I just am thankful we have the gospel in our lives.
A FAX?? How Personal is that??? :scared:


This is sort of all run-together. I don't know quite what to make of it.
Where did she send the fax from or was it an IM or something else?
Did TR call VR and apologize? I seem to remember a phone call between them as he was leaving work.
I sounds like a serious fight/argument.

:confused:

[Justice_Dawg]

This is sort of all run-together. I don't know quite what to make of it.
Where did she send the fax from or was it an IM or something else?
Did TR call VR and apologize? I seem to remember a phone call between them as he was leaving work.
I sounds like a serious fight/argument.

:confused:

Did Tiffany ever tell LE they were fighting when this murder happened? I don't remember reading it in any reports.

[bkwits]

How do you know they didn't fight about Tim living there?

Oh, of course I don't know that. In fact, it may very well have been a sore point. I just kind of doubt that it had much to do with Candy, unless he brought her to their house.

Maybe VR was a wife and child beater. I hate to say that, but it is possible. IMO

[bkwits]

Did Tiffany ever tell LE they were fighting when this murder happened? I don't remember reading it in any reports.

I don't think so. But, according to the Bethany poster, I guess they had just made u 30 min before he was shot.

[Crispy]

Well, the boy said he had been spanked the night before and Tiffany and VR were fighting the night before....kinda makes you wonder what happened that night huh?

[Justice_Dawg]

Well, the boy said he had been spanked the night before and Tiffany and VR were fighting the night before....kinda makes you wonder what happened that night huh?
It sure does. :tongue:

[Details]

I really don't know what the fax was about - but that's the type of thing murderers use as attempted alibis. Doing something odd because they want to have a time and place stamped location where they are that proves they weren't in range of the murder.

I see many possible suspects here. Tim's wife's statement about the phone leaves to major possibilities - she's telling the truth, or she's lying, or she's mistaken. If she's lying - then it's to cover for a murderer - and the obvious option is herself or someone acting on her behalf. If she's mistaken, anyone could be the killer - it's wide open. If she's telling the truth, then it could be the boy, it could be the boy's mother or step mother or another killer using the boy to lure Tim in, then telling the boy he'll be killed, or whatever he loves most will die, if he ever says what really happened.

My top two suspects would be Tim's wife - that proposal supposedly happening this weekend makes it really seem like everything was coming to a head in Tim's life, murder for jealousy, or to avoid a divorce is very common - and he looks to me like the main target of this murder. And the other one would be the boy's mother or step mother - using the boy as a bit of a decoy.


It could all be totally wrong. Could be a random killer, drug deal gone wrong, wrong address, or serial killer, and Tim's wife was just wrong, or making a story to point police in a direction she falsely thought was right. Could even be (although I still find this highly improbable - if the boy killed them, it wouldn't be so neat, and he'd have been capable of giving a confession that matched the facts to some degree) that the little boy did it.

[mina]

A previous entry in the "fax blog" indiciates that the workplace is White Mountain Physical Therapy.
http://bethanygentry.blogspot.com/2008/08/church-calling-and-work.html
…
And as for my new job I have. I started it today! It was quite intimidating and very overwhelming. I am now working for White Mountain Physical Therapy. But in the billing office. I call the insurance companies to make sure the patients are authorized for physical therapy and call and fax the referring doctors to make sure the prescriptions are up to date. I hope I get it, because insurance is straight up annoying. The people are grouchy too. So that doesn't help.
…
Check out this picture:
http://www.whitemountainpt.com/html/st_johns.html

[mina]

It doesn't really solve any mysteries, but it's information I guess.

My latest theory: Vince and Tiffany wanted Tim to move out (maybe with his new "fiance"??), but Vince was such a nice guy, he was reluctant to kick him out. Maybe he asked his Dad Leroy to come over and help him talk to Tim about it, and somehow things got out of control? There are just so many possibilities IMHO...

[Justice_Dawg]

A previous entry in the "fax blog" indiciates that the workplace is White Mountain Physical Therapy.
http://bethanygentry.blogspot.com/2008/08/church-calling-and-work.html
…
And as for my new job I have. I started it today! It was quite intimidating and very overwhelming. I am now working for White Mountain Physical Therapy. But in the billing office. I call the insurance companies to make sure the patients are authorized for physical therapy and call and fax the referring doctors to make sure the prescriptions are up to date. I hope I get it, because insurance is straight up annoying. The people are grouchy too. So that doesn't help.
…
Check out this picture:
http://www.whitemountainpt.com/html/st_johns.html

Great Find Mina!

What else ya got? :thumbsup:

[Justice_Dawg]

Where did everybody go? :tonguewag:

[wolfi_2]

…..after nightshift into bed.:closedeyes:

[wolfi_2]

I just look into the court calendar for Dec.22nd, and noticed, that he isn´t listed in custody, maybe they forgot the little checkmark ?

[Justice_Dawg]

I just look into the court calendar for Dec.22nd, and noticed, that he isn´t listed in custody, maybe they forgot the little checkmark ?

HOLY CRAP!! Where is he???? They can't forget to checkmark!

:confused:Right??

[Justice_Dawg]

Finally got the troops out of my way. Now I can talk. LOL

They took a dead dear. They hung it from a tree and shot it with the chipmunk gun in it's chest area. It didn't go through the body. It even lodged in the head. They were so fast it took 10 seconds for four shots and 12 seconds for 6 shots.

The guys doing it were 2 Marine recons and 1 Navy Special forces. All have been in for over 6 years.

Thier opion (after they stopped laughing) was, someone used a high power rifle on VR and TR,

[PensiveOne]

Finally got the troops out of my way. Now I can talk. LOL

They took a dead dear. They hung it from a tree and shot it with the chipmunk gun in it's chest area. It didn't go through the body. It even lodged in the head. They were so fast it took 10 seconds for four shots and 12 seconds for 6 shots.

The guys doing it were 2 Marine recons and 1 Navy Special forces. All have been in for over 6 years.

Thier opion (after they stopped laughing) was, someone used a high power rifle on VR and TR,

Justice,
I did a little google research and found this article. It seems it would probably take several shots to the head with a .22 to cause death. Although, Bobby Kennedy was killed with a .22, I don't know how many shots to his head there were...This is something that has really bothered me about this case. There were several shots to the head on both victims. That tells me that the perp knew that one shot would not do it. If it was the boy, he could have just been shooting until they stopped moving...but it just doesn't seem right to me. I have trouble enough with the idea that an eight year old could do this at all, much less KNOW that it takes more than one shot to the head. Things just never seem to add up in this case.:unsure:

http://www.jsonline.com/features/29204729.html

Bullet size is especially important in a head shot, Hargarten said.

A patient hit in the head by a smaller, .22-caliber bullet might live 36 hours, while a similar wound from a 9mm might be fatal in an hour.

[Justice_Dawg]

Justice,
I did a little google research and found this article. It seems it would probably take several shots to the head with a .22 to cause death. Although, Bobby Kennedy was killed with a .22, I don't know how many shots to his head there were...This is something that has really bothered me about this case. There were several shots to the head on both victims. That tells me that the perp knew that one shot would not do it. If it was the boy, he could have just been shooting until they stopped moving...but it just doesn't seem right to me. I have trouble enough with the idea that an eight year old could do this at all, much less KNOW that it takes more than one shot to the head. Things just never seem to add up in this case.:unsure:

http://www.jsonline.com/features/29204729.html

Bullet size is especially important in a head shot, Hargarten said.

A patient hit in the head by a smaller, .22-caliber bullet might live 36 hours, while a similar wound from a 9mm might be fatal in an hour.

I swear it looked and sounded like they were playing with a BB gun. (That chipmunk is small!) They tried to explain it to me. They said that with a small .22 like that, the bullet goes in the head and swirls around until it stops. :confused:

They also told me that they are higly trained, so I shouldn't go by how quick they can get the shots off. 2 said they had guns by age 10 but were clumsy with them. They said there is NO WAY an 8 yr. old boy fired and reloaded 10 times AND hit thier target every time without ever dropping a shell within a 10 minute time frame with one man shot inside and one outside. They said the shock and trauma of seeing the first person dead would slow them up, or mess them up (ie dropping shells, missing target, ect) at that age.

They insist it was not a single shot chipmunk rifle that did this. They insist it was a .22 that held a round of bullets.

-----From your link:
"If you get shot with a .22 in the heart, you've got a chance to survive," said Richardson, director of emergency surgical services at the hospital. "If you get shot with a Glock 9mm, you're not going to make it."
----------

I think my guys are right. Can they testify? :lol:

[muska]

I swear it looked and sounded like they were playing with a BB gun. (That chipmunk is small!) They tried to explain it to me. They said that with a small .22 like that, the bullet goes in the head and swirls around until it stops. :confused:

They also told me that they are higly trained, so I shouldn't go by how quick they can get the shots off. 2 said they had guns by age 10 but were clumsy with them. They said there is NO WAY an 8 yr. old boy fired and reloaded 10 times AND hit thier target every time without ever dropping a shell within a 10 minute time frame with one man shot inside and one outside. They said the shock and trauma of seeing the first person dead would slow them up, or mess them up (ie dropping shells, missing target, ect) at that age.

They insist it was not a single shot chipmunk rifle that did this. They insist it was a .22 that held a round of bullets.

-----From your link:
"If you get shot with a .22 in the heart, you've got a chance to survive," said Richardson, director of emergency surgical services at the hospital. "If you get shot with a Glock 9mm, you're not going to make it."
----------

I think my guys are right. Can they testify? :lol:

So what about that Mossberg - is that what it was called? -does that hold a round and do we know if they took that from the house? I saw a post somewhere that said the manual looked very new. Also, maybe someone brought his own weapon there with him. I guess ballistics will answer some questions.

[JD1974]

Who asked for the gag order? I can't remember and I know it is on the long thread. I was just thinking though, maybe they asked for the gag order because they knew some bad stuff was going to come out. Say pros then ballistics and that come out and don't match, def same thing but they are worried that whoever really did the killing will come after the boy when the reports start coming out. Just curiousity getting to me because I can't understand after all that was released why all of a sudden the gag order...

[Justice_Dawg]

Who asked for the gag order? I can't remember and I know it is on the long thread. I was just thinking though, maybe they asked for the gag order because they knew some bad stuff was going to come out. Say pros then ballistics and that come out and don't match, def same thing but they are worried that whoever really did the killing will come after the boy when the reports start coming out. Just curiousity getting to me because I can't understand after all that was released why all of a sudden the gag order...

Brewer did. Right after they released the DVD. Gag was issued Nov. 10th, I think. :biggrin:

[Crispy]

So what about that Mossberg - is that what it was called? -does that hold a round and do we know if they took that from the house? I saw a post somewhere that said the manual looked very new. Also, maybe someone brought his own weapon there with him. I guess ballistics will answer some questions.

The Mossberg manual said that it has a detachable clip and I don't think they have ever said if they took it from the house.

[Justice_Dawg]

The Mossberg manual said that it has a detachable clip and I don't think they have ever said if they took it from the house.

They said they took all .22's.

[bkwits]

Finally got the troops out of my way. Now I can talk. LOL

They took a dead dear. They hung it from a tree and shot it with the chipmunk gun in it's chest area. It didn't go through the body. It even lodged in the head. They were so fast it took 10 seconds for four shots and 12 seconds for 6 shots.

The guys doing it were 2 Marine recons and 1 Navy Special forces. All have been in for over 6 years.

Thier opion (after they stopped laughing) was, someone used a high power rifle on VR and TR,

Hey, Justice, couldn't it have been a .22 handgun?

[Justice_Dawg]

Hey, Justice, couldn't it have been a .22 handgun?

Handguns can be converted to shoot .22's, so yes.

[IAMME]

http://www.relentlessdefense.com/gunshot.wounds.html

I just thought this was interesting. I am trying to find something on the size of entry wounds with different calibers, not much luck with an article, but lots on google.book

[bkwits]

It doesn't really solve any mysteries, but it's information I guess.

My latest theory: Vince and Tiffany wanted Tim to move out (maybe with his new "fiance"??), but Vince was such a nice guy, he was reluctant to kick him out. Maybe he asked his Dad Leroy to come over and help him talk to Tim about it, and somehow things got out of control? There are just so many possibilities IMHO...

Well, knowing that Tiffany worked close by in town, is good information. St. Johns is about the size of the town that I live near. You can be anywhere in town in 5 or 6 minutes (longer if there is a train passing through).

[bkwits]

I swear it looked and sounded like they were playing with a BB gun. (That chipmunk is small!) They tried to explain it to me. They said that with a small .22 like that, the bullet goes in the head and swirls around until it stops. :confused:

They also told me that they are higly trained, so I shouldn't go by how quick they can get the shots off. 2 said they had guns by age 10 but were clumsy with them. They said there is NO WAY an 8 yr. old boy fired and reloaded 10 times AND hit thier target every time without ever dropping a shell within a 10 minute time frame with one man shot inside and one outside. They said the shock and trauma of seeing the first person dead would slow them up, or mess them up (ie dropping shells, missing target, ect) at that age.

They insist it was not a single shot chipmunk rifle that did this. They insist it was a .22 that held a round of bullets.

-----From your link:
"If you get shot with a .22 in the heart, you've got a chance to survive," said Richardson, director of emergency surgical services at the hospital. "If you get shot with a Glock 9mm, you're not going to make it."
----------

I think my guys are right. Can they testify? :lol:

It's okay with me. :biggrin:

[bkwits]

Here's some interesting information that expands on what Justice Dawg's reenactment proved.


The .22 LR is a good killer, but it is a really lousy stopper. I've read of many instances where people were shot as many as 20 times with .22's and continued to fight.

.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080215012308AAIzeZ2

[tif]

They said there is NO WAY an 8 yr. old boy fired and reloaded 10 times AND hit thier target every time without ever dropping a shell within a 10 minute time frame with one man shot inside and one outside.

He really didn't even have 10 minutes. We calculated in the last thread that there was 11 minutes 30 seconds from the time Tim ended his phone call to the time the friend's father started his 911 call. I know I'm rehashing this, but after killing his father, the boy would have had to

shoot Tim 6 times with unfailing accuracy
walk/run to his friend's house
tell his friend what happened
wait while the friend called his dad
wait for the dad to get home
walk back to his house with the friend's dad

All in 11 minutes 30 seconds? Is this child on steroids?

[GentleBreeze]

Handguns can be converted to shoot .22's, so yes.

.22 handguns have to be converted???:confused: They are a .22 caliber and use a .22 bullet.

imo

[muska]

Finally got the troops out of my way. Now I can talk. LOL

They took a dead dear. They hung it from a tree and shot it with the chipmunk gun in it's chest area. It didn't go through the body. It even lodged in the head. They were so fast it took 10 seconds for four shots and 12 seconds for 6 shots.

The guys doing it were 2 Marine recons and 1 Navy Special forces. All have been in for over 6 years.

Thier opion (after they stopped laughing) was, someone used a high power rifle on VR and TR,

Would a high power rifle make the same small wounds as the boy's rifle?

[Justice_Dawg]

Would a high power rifle make the same small wounds as the boy's rifle?

If they both shoot .22 caliper, yes.

[Justice_Dawg]

Here's some interesting information that expands on what Justice Dawg's reenactment proved.


The .22 LR is a good killer, but it is a really lousy stopper. I've read of many instances where people were shot as many as 20 times with .22's and continued to fight.

.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080215012308AAIzeZ2


And I bet it wasn't a chipmunk. ROFLMAO!

[Justice_Dawg]

He really didn't even have 10 minutes. We calculated in the last thread that there was 11 minutes 30 seconds from the time Tim ended his phone call to the time the friend's father started his 911 call. I know I'm rehashing this, but after killing his father, the boy would have had to

shoot Tim 6 times with unfailing accuracy
walk/run to his friend's house
tell his friend what happened
wait while the friend called his dad
wait for the dad to get home
walk back to his house with the friend's dad

All in 11 minutes 30 seconds? Is this child on steroids?
Seems so. :biggrin:

[muska]

If they both shoot .22 caliper, yes.

So why did the police assume the gun used was the boy's? Just because it was there? That makes me think they suspected the boy from the first minutes. A more powerful or automatic weapon would have made more sense....you'd think they'd have been thinking that someone came with his own weapon.

[Details]

22 is the size of the bullet. The wounds I'de expect to be the same size. The penetration might be a little different. But I think the key is that it's something that auto-loads - not one bullet at a time, not as an angry adult is charging you and your dead father lies behind you.


BTW - our 10 minutes is a tight timeline no matter what. Unless the phone call isn't real, in which case there's a longer timeline possible. Because if it wasn't the boy, someone in a white car needs to have pulled up, shot Tim, gone in, shot the father, left, the boy goes in, sees what happened, goes across the street, and talks to his friend.


I believe the shells show it was a shotgun variant of 22, not handgun. Same caliber, different shell casing, if I understand correctly. But the gun the manual was found for would have been perfect - holds 10 shells, the exact number of shots fired.

[IAMME]

.22 handguns have to be converted???:confused: They are a .22 caliber and use a .22 bullet.

imo

Right. There are 22 pistols. Do you know if any other caliber can shoot 22s? I know you can shoot 38s in a .357 so could you shoot a 22 out of say a 25 or anything else?

My ex tried to buy me a 22 when I got my 38, and I laughed and refused, I dont want to piss off my attacker, I want to STOP them, and a 38 is still a small enough weapon that I feel completely comfortable using it.

[bkwits]

And I bet it wasn't a chipmunk. ROFLMAO!


You're right, they weren't talking about a chipmunk or single shot.

[Justice_Dawg]

.22 handguns have to be converted???:confused: They are a .22 caliber and use a .22 bullet.

imo

I had the crime scene handgun in my head when I posted that. I think it was converted.

:tonguewag:

[IAMME]

22 is the size of the bullet. The wounds I'de expect to be the same size. The penetration might be a little different. But I think the key is that it's something that auto-loads - not one bullet at a time, not as an angry adult is charging you and your dead father lies behind you.


BTW - our 10 minutes is a tight timeline no matter what. Unless the phone call isn't real, in which case there's a longer timeline possible. Because if it wasn't the boy, someone in a white car needs to have pulled up, shot Tim, gone in, shot the father, left, the boy goes in, sees what happened, goes across the street, and talks to his friend.


I believe the shells show it was a shotgun variant of 22, not handgun. Same caliber, different shell casing, if I understand correctly. But the gun the manual was found for would have been perfect - holds 10 shells, the exact number of shots fired.

From what I understand from reading about entry wounds earlier today is the entry wound will be smaller than the ammo. I posted a link on page 4.

The timeline really bothers me, and I still say she could have called Tims number and left a voicemail and never actually talked to him, or the shooter could have called her from Tim's phone in an attempt to provide an alibi, for all we know he could have been dead by the time the call was made, no where does it say he called her, in the transcripts the officer was unsure. IMO

I wasn't aware that the shells were different for handguns and rifles. I thought caliber was caliber.....are you sure about that? Not trying to argue, just asking....

[Justice_Dawg]

Right. There are 22 pistols. Do you know if any other caliber can shoot 22s? I know you can shoot 38s in a .357 so could you shoot a 22 out of say a 25 or anything else?

My ex tried to buy me a 22 when I got my 38, and I laughed and refused, I dont want to piss off my attacker, I want to STOP them, and a 38 is still a small enough weapon that I feel completely comfortable using it.

LOL, this is my baby:
http://www.gunshopfinder.com/smithandwesson/smithandwesson65ls.asp

[bkwits]

So why did the police assume the gun used was the boy's? Just because it was there? That makes me think they suspected the boy from the first minutes. A more powerful or automatic weapon would have made more sense....you'd think they'd have been thinking that someone came with his own weapon.

I wonder if they thought the chipmunk gun was the weapon before Tonya told them about the phone conversation with Tim.

It makes sense that if someone else shot them he or she would bring their own gun (except maybe TR).

[IAMME]

LOL, this is my baby:
http://www.gunshopfinder.com/smithandwesson/smithandwesson65ls.asp

Yours is like my mothers, my father bought it for her before I was born.

Here is mine:

http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=84095

[Details]

IAMME - I'm not sure at all - I recall someone else saying that here, and it sounds right to me - shotguns eject shells, handguns fire the whole thing or retain the shells, if any.

[GentleBreeze]

Right. There are 22 pistols. Do you know if any other caliber can shoot 22s? I know you can shoot 38s in a .357 so could you shoot a 22 out of say a 25 or anything else?

My ex tried to buy me a 22 when I got my 38, and I laughed and refused, I don't want to piss off my attacker, I want to STOP them, and a 38 is still a small enough weapon that I feel completely comfortable using it.

I don't really know. I have never owned a 25. I have a .357 and yes you are right you can use both a 38 or a 357. I prefer the 357 bullet.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

IAMME - I'm not sure at all - I recall someone else saying that here, and it sounds right to me - shotguns eject shells, handguns fire the whole thing or retain the shells, if any.

Shotguns have shells.

Handguns and rifles have bullet casings.

With the youth model .22 once bolt is slammed backward after firing the bullet casing flips out leaving it ready to reload.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

I wonder if they thought the chipmunk gun was the weapon before Tonya told them about the phone conversation with Tim.

It makes sense that if someone else shot them he or she would bring their own gun (except maybe TR).

If they brought their own weapon they sure wouldn't have used one that took 10 shots to get the job done. If a higher caliber weapon had been used it would take about 2 shots to the head to kill them and that would have been it.

Imo they took that weapon from the scene the first night.......way before they talked to Tanya the next day.

imoo

[IAMME]

Shotguns have shells.

Handguns and rifles have bullet casings.

With the youth model .22 once bolt is slammed backward after firing the bullet casing flips out leaving it ready to reload.

imoo

Yes, but if I understand right from my mother and step-father, a 22 rifle and a 22 pistol can shoot the same bullets, there are two types 22 shorts and longs and there are pistols and rifles that fire both.

Nevermind, I found the answer here:

http://www.fff.org/comment/com0509c.asp

[Details]

If they brought their own weapon they sure wouldn't have used one that took 10 shots to get the job done. If a higher caliber weapon had been used it would take about 2 shots to the head to kill them and that would have been it.

Imo they took that weapon from the scene the first night.......way before they talked to Tanya the next day.

imooWhy not? You bring the gun you have. If you haven't committed a murder before (and most haven't) - it could be almost anything. People do buy 22s. Maybe they figured it'd be quieter, maybe it was the gun they had that they were most willing to dispose of. Maybe it was the mossberg? that there was a manual for in the house.

[bkwits]

YIKES :scared: :scared:


A bunch of pistol-packin' Mamas on this thread. Remind me to be verrrry nice to you all. :wink:

[penguin01]

LOL, this is my baby:
http://www.gunshopfinder.com/smithandwesson/smithandwesson65ls.asp
No dealers in Alabama. Darn. I may have to go and camp out in a rental property in a not so great neighborhood to protect it till we find another tenant. Thought I might best buy a gun if I do that. Oops very O/T - sorry.
I do not believe this child could have accomplished the deed as the facts have been presented to us. Something very wrong!

[bkwits]

iF the child did it, then prob VR was the target.

if it was a work or bar room brawl hangover then maybe both men were targets.

i tend to think that Tim was the target, but that shot through Vincent;s head with the brains splattered seems like an angry execution shot.

If Vincent was the target, why shoot Tim? Unless the shooter's car was in plain sight of Tim's truck.
Otherwise the shooter could have left through the back door while Tim was on the phone, (and that includes the child). IMO

[IAMME]

YIKES :scared: :scared:


A bunch of pistol-packin' Mamas on this thread. Remind me to be verrrry nice to you all. :wink:


In all my life I saw my mother pull her gun one time, we were moving and were in a motel and a man broke in, by the time he got the door open my mother had a gun pointed at his head, he ran off. I have never (thankfully) had an occasion when I felt threatened enough to pull mine. I also have two of these:

http://cache.virtualtourist.com/2653307-Travel_Picture-Our_German_shepherd_team_Irin_Hof.jpg

But Im not sure they are reliable as protection, unless you think it is possible to be licked to death.....but they are scary looking to alot of people.

Sorry OT.

[bkwits]

In all my life I saw my mother pull her gun one time, we were moving and were in a motel and a man broke in, by the time he got the door open my mother had a gun pointed at his head, he ran off. I have never (thankfully) had an occasion when I felt threatened enough to pull mine. I also have two of these:

http://cache.virtualtourist.com/2653307-Travel_Picture-Our_German_shepherd_team_Irin_Hof.jpg

But Im not sure they are reliable as protection, unless you think it is possible to be licked to death.....but they are scary looking to alot of people.

Sorry OT.

Oh, but they are beautiful.

[Justice_Dawg]

Yours is like my mothers, my father bought it for her before I was born.

Here is mine:

http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=84095

Nice!!! :biggrin:

[Justice_Dawg]

YIKES :scared:


A bunch of pistol-packin' Mamas on this thread. Remind me to be verrrry nice to you all. :wink:

When I gotta go talk to people, you know, it's scary sometimes. Gotta be ready. :thumbup:

[Justice_Dawg]

iF the child did it, then prob VR was the target.

if it was a work or bar room brawl hangover then maybe both men were targets.

i tend to think that Tim was the target, but that shot through Vincent;s head with the brains splattered seems like an angry execution shot.

If Vincent was the target, why shoot Tim? Unless the shooter's car was in plain sight of Tim's truck.
Otherwise the shooter could have left through the back door while Tim was on the phone, (and that includes the child). IMO
Tim had close range shots to the head too. 2 of them.

[bkwits]

Tim had close range shots to the head too. 2 of them.

They were to the back of the head, right? Do we know they were close range?

I read that VR was shot through the jaw and the bullet went out the top of his head. I can't remember who said that but I think it was Sgt. Webb Hogle.

[Justice_Dawg]

They were to the back of the head, right? Do we know they were close range?

I read that VR was shot through the jaw and the bullet went out the top of his head. I can't remember who said that but I think it was Sgt. Webb Hogle.

I'm going to go look.

[Justice_Dawg]

They were to the back of the head, right? Do we know they were close range?

I read that VR was shot through the jaw and the bullet went out the top of his head. I can't remember who said that but I think it was Sgt. Webb Hogle.
Sgt. Webb Hogle:
He doesn't know about close range to the back of the head because Tim had a stocking cap on and he didn't remove it.

He did say VR was shot up through the jaw, and then again down through the top of the head (hat). WoW

[bkwits]

Sgt. Webb Hogle:
He doesn't know about close range to the back of the head because Tim had a stocking cap on and he didn't remove it.

He did say VR was shot up through the jaw, and then again down through the top of the head (hat). WoW

I'm learning a little more about firearms on here. :wink:
So, what I'm wondering is about the penetration of a less powerful child's gun, such as the Chipmunk, into a hard hat and into the Carrhart jacket or coveralls (not sure which it was).

[Justice_Dawg]

I'm learning a little more about firearms on here. :wink:
So, what I'm wondering is about the penetration of a less powerful child's gun, such as the Chipmunk, into a hard hat and into the Carrhart jacket or coveralls (not sure which it was).

Had to be a powerful gun to go up through the jaw, through the head, skull and out the hard hat.

I think VR was running from something too. Why did he still have his hard hat and goggles on? (Because he knew someone was trying to kill him) ???
That is just not normal! He had been off of work almost a half hour!

I don't think wifey talked to Tim either. The testimony is Tim called HER. I think SHE called him. (voicemail)
IMO

[bkwits]

Sgt. Webb Hogle:
He doesn't know about close range to the back of the head because Tim had a stocking cap on and he didn't remove it.

He did say VR was shot up through the jaw, and then again down through the top of the head (hat). WoW

Webb Hogle Pg 14, lines 4-8, he says VR was shot up through the jaw and exited the top of the head, and also shot down through the hard hat.

Do you think that means he was shot through the jaw standing up and through the top of his head when he was down on the stairs?

[Justice_Dawg]

Webb Hogle Pg 14, lines 4-8, he says VR was shot up through the jaw and exited the top of the head, and also shot down through the hard hat.

Do you think that means he was shot through the jaw standing up and through the top of his head when he was down on the stairs?

I wish I knew how he was laying. Was he on his back? Belly? What?

[GentleBreeze]

I wish I knew how he was laying. Was he on his back? Belly? What?

He was found face down on the stairs. So the back of the head would be closest to the shooter.

imoo

[muska]

I wish I knew how he was laying. Was he on his back? Belly? What?

At the very end of this article, it tells which wounds each man had:

http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/stories/stjohns-local-news-112808-double-murder.1...

If another story was correct, Vincent was found lying face down. I remember that they said they couldn't say if he had a chest wound without moving him. I have also read that the bodies were removed before DPS got there.

[GentleBreeze]

Webb Hogle Pg 14, lines 4-8, he says VR was shot up through the jaw and exited the top of the head, and also shot down through the hard hat.

Do you think that means he was shot through the jaw standing up and through the top of his head when he was down on the stairs?

That would make sense if the shooter was below him on the stairs or a platform, firing up at him as he was climbing the stairs.

The shot downward through the hard hat would be done while he is already down and the shooter standing over him.

imoo

[bkwits]

I wish I knew how he was laying. Was he on his back? Belly? What?

VR was laying face down on the stairs. I believe it was Rodriguez who testified to that.

[Justice_Dawg]

Webb Hogle Pg 14, lines 4-8, he says VR was shot up through the jaw and exited the top of the head, and also shot down through the hard hat.

Do you think that means he was shot through the jaw standing up and through the top of his head when he was down on the stairs?

Look at these crime scene photos of casings on the steps

http://www.kpho.com/slideshow/news/18019101/detail.html

at least 3 from behind the body, and VR had 2 chest wounds. ??

[Justice_Dawg]

That would make sense if the shooter was below him on the stairs or a platform, firing up at him as he was climbing the stairs.

The shot downward through the hard hat would be done while he is already down and the shooter standing over him.

imoo

Huh ????????????????

[bkwits]

Had to be a powerful gun to go up through the jaw, through the head, skull and out the hard hat.

I think VR was running from something too. Why did he still have his hard hat and goggles on? (Because he knew someone was trying to kill him) ???
That is just not normal! He had been off of work almost a half hour!

I don't think wifey talked to Tim either. The testimony is Tim called HER. I think SHE called him. (voicemail)
IMO

Yes that really gave me pause about the bullet going through the jaw, the skull, and exiting through the hard hat. Also the Carrhart overalls are quite thick. I've seen my son wear them.

Maybe it was VR's habit to go straight to his bedroom to take off his work gear. How else was he ever going to find it, in that house? :ohmy:

[Justice_Dawg]

Yes that really gave me pause about the bullet going through the jaw, the skull, and exiting through the hard hat. Also the Carrhart overalls are quite thick. I've seen my son wear them.

Maybe it was VR's habit to go straight to his bedroom to take off his work gear. How else was he ever going to find it, in that house? :ohmy:

:lol::lol:
I am going to bed. Night!

[IAMME]

Webb Hogle Pg 14, lines 4-8, he says VR was shot up through the jaw and exited the top of the head, and also shot down through the hard hat.

Do you think that means he was shot through the jaw standing up and through the top of his head when he was down on the stairs?

Help! Where are you guys finding this? I cant find it and I am pretty sure I havent read any of that.....

[muska]

Look at these crime scene photos of casings on the steps

http://www.kpho.com/slideshow/news/18019101/detail.html

at least 3 from behind the body, and VR had 2 chest wounds. ??

Vincent was shot twice in the head, once in the back and once in the elbow. He was not shot in the chest at all.

[bkwits]

Help! Where are you guys finding this? I cant find it and I am pretty sure I havent read any of that.....

It's in the transcripts of the interviews with LE. Part/B ]Vol2. Posted on 11/14 on the Apache Superior Court site.

[muska]

I read that the Mossberg can be used as a semi-automatic or as a single shot weapon. Does this mean that the weapon can fire rapidly but also fire slowly with pauses as in the shots heard by the neighbor?

I also saw that the Mossberg and Chipmunk are both subsonic so I guess they'd sound about the same.The article said the Mossberg would be good for small game hunting so about the same power, I think.

Does anyone know why the HMR 17 ammunition was shown? I thought the casings were 22s. I'm sorry if I don't make sense, just trying to figure out the rifles and ammunition.

[muska]

Does anyone know if it has been determined if there were any guns missing from the home? Were all the guns in the home taken into evidence?

I only remember that the 22s were all taken. I don't know if any were missing. It would be nice to know if the Mossberg was found and taken or missing.

[bkwits]

At the very end of this article, it tells which wounds each man had:

http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/stories/stjohns-local-news-112808-double-murder.1...

If another story was correct, Vincent was found lying face down. I remember that they said they couldn't say if he had a chest wound without moving him. I have also read that the bodies were removed before DPS got there.

That link doesn't work for me. I have been looking for that for some time. Was that Chief Melnick's interview?

[muska]

That link doesn't work for me. I have been looking for that for some time. Was that Chief Melnick's interview?

Maybe this will work:

www.azfamily.com/news/local/stories/stjohns-local-news-112808-double-murder.10aabc9d.html

Article from azfamily.com, Plea deal offered to boy in St.Johns, end of "original report"

[muska]

Maybe this will work:

www.azfamily.com/news/local/stories/stjohns-local-news-112808-double-murder.10aabc9d.html

Article from azfamily.com, Plea deal offered to boy in St.Johns, end of "original report"

This isn't working well, but when the page comes up, type "Tim Romans, plea deal" in the search engine and you'll get the article.

[bkwits]

This isn't working well, but when the page comes up, type "Tim Romans, plea deal" in the search engine and you'll get the article.

TY. i got it. Hmm I have to think about that. VR must have been shot in the back and arm while going up the stairs. He falls on the stairs and then is shot in the head?

About the box of bullets -- I was doing research on those early on. I believe that can be shot from a .22 rifle, but I am not so sure. I think there are pros and cons on that.

This is the blind leading the blind you know, b/c I know very little about firearms. I am learning something here though.

IMO

[Crispy]

TY. i got it. Hmm I have to think about that. VR must have been shot in the back and arm while going up the stairs. He falls on the stairs and then is shot in the head?

About the box of bullets -- I was doing research on those early on. I believe that can be shot from a .22 rifle, but I am not so sure. I think there are pros and cons on that.

This is the blind leading the blind you know, b/c I know very little about firearms. I am learning something here though.

IMO

I tried to figure out the bullets and I confused myself. LOL They were 17 caliber bullets, but it said that the parent casing was a 22 or something along those lines. That led me to believe that it was the same diameter as a 22 and therefore wouldn't produce the wobbling effect that a smaller bullet would have in a larger caliber gun. Does that even make sense? :blink: I am seriously lacking in the gun area. I don't have any of the links handy but if I can get to them tomorrow I will post them.

[IAMME]

TY. i got it. Hmm I have to think about that. VR must have been shot in the back and arm while going up the stairs. He falls on the stairs and then is shot in the head?

About the box of bullets -- I was doing research on those early on. I believe that can be shot from a .22 rifle, but I am not so sure. I think there are pros and cons on that.

This is the blind leading the blind you know, b/c I know very little about firearms. I am learning something here though.

IMO

I have been researching this and I have found two things that are VERY interesting.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.17_HMR

"The terminal ballistics of the lightweight expanding bullets limit the .17 HMR to small game animals and varmints. "

AND

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.22_Long_Rifle

"The newest commercial rimfire, the .17 Mach 2, is based on the .22 LR case, but is slightly stretched in length (case length is similar to the CCI Stinger) and necked down. The light, aerodynamic .17 caliber (4.5 mm) bullet gives a much higher velocity than the .22 LR, for similar energy and a much flatter trajectory, but at the expense of increased cost and noise."


Underlining is mine.

An interesting discussion on using .17 for personal protection...

http://www.hk94.com/hk/17-caliber-pistol-t11971.html

[Crispy]

Here is one link where they imply it can be done.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_180_30/ai_n16034754/pg_2

[IAMME]

Here is one link where they imply it can be done.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_180_30/ai_n16034754/pg_2

I read the article, Im sorry I missed your point, it implies what can be done exactly? It just says the same thing I have been reading, that even with a 17 caliber bullet it is still only good for small game and varmints, or did I miss something?

[GentleBreeze]

Huh ????????????????

Not sure what you mean by Huh?

It is very logical to me if one of the shots went through the jaw and existed the top of the head that the shooter was shooting from below VR as he climbed the stairs. The trajectory will show imo that it was shot at an upward angle when fired toward the victim that was above the shooter when he fired.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

I have been researching this and I have found two things that are VERY interesting.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.17_HMR

"The terminal ballistics of the lightweight expanding bullets limit the .17 HMR to small game animals and varmints. "

AND

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.22_Long_Rifle

"The newest commercial rimfire, the .17 Mach 2, is based on the .22 LR case, but is slightly stretched in length (case length is similar to the CCI Stinger) and necked down. The light, aerodynamic .17 caliber (4.5 mm) bullet gives a much higher velocity than the .22 LR, for similar energy and a much flatter trajectory, but at the expense of increased cost and noise."


Underlining is mine.

An interesting discussion on using .17 for personal protection...

http://www.hk94.com/hk/17-caliber-pistol-t11971.html

The bullet casings found at the scene were .22s not .17s.

imoo

[Kether]

I apologize in advance, but I don't have time to sift through all the links, but does anyone know what animals were being hunting with this gun when the child and father went hunting? IIRC, the article I read said pheasant. Anyone else remember this? If so, a 22 is not the gun of choice for this. You would need a shotgun with some sort of squirrel shot or similar bullet. You would have to be a pro to hit a small target at with a 22. Maybe the father and son just target practiced with this gun. I am just curious, and if anyone can help, thanks in advance.

[GentleBreeze]

Yes that really gave me pause about the bullet going through the jaw, the skull, and exiting through the hard hat. Also the Carrhart overalls are quite thick. I've seen my son wear them.

Maybe it was VR's habit to go straight to his bedroom to take off his work gear. How else was he ever going to find it, in that house? :ohmy:

I believe you are correct. I know many men in construction that come home still fully in their work gear and will go to one designated place such as their bathroom or bedroom and take it all off at one time.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

I apologize in advance, but I don't have time to sift through all the links, but does anyone know what animals were being hunting with this gun when the child and father went hunting? IIRC, the article I read said pheasant. Anyone else remember this? If so, a 22 is not the gun of choice for this. You would need a shotgun with some sort of squirrel shot or similar bullet. You would have to be a pro to hit a small target at with a 22. Maybe the father and son just target practiced with this gun. I am just curious, and if anyone can help, thanks in advance.

If he had shot pheasant then a .410 shotgun would have been more appropriate or some other type of shotgun. But usually younger children uses .410s when they shoot birds.

I believe that it has been mentioned though that they shot prairie dogs and rabbits...........not pheasant.

It takes a sharp eye to kill a small, quick animal, from many yards away. It takes no skill to shoot at a target as large as a human being that isn't yards away but right up at the shooter.

imoo

[muska]

I apologize in advance, but I don't have time to sift through all the links, but does anyone know what animals were being hunting with this gun when the child and father went hunting? IIRC, the article I read said pheasant. Anyone else remember this? If so, a 22 is not the gun of choice for this. You would need a shotgun with some sort of squirrel shot or similar bullet. You would have to be a pro to hit a small target at with a 22. Maybe the father and son just target practiced with this gun. I am just curious, and if anyone can help, thanks in advance.

I remember prairie dogs being mentioned.

[GentleBreeze]

Had to be a powerful gun to go up through the jaw, through the head, skull and out the hard hat.

I think VR was running from something too. Why did he still have his hard hat and goggles on? (Because he knew someone was trying to kill him) ???
That is just not normal! He had been off of work almost a half hour!

I don't think wifey talked to Tim either. The testimony is Tim called HER. I think SHE called him. (voicemail)
IMO

Not necessarily. A .22 rifle is used for long distance shooting. All of these shots were fired in a very close range making the weapon much more lethal than if it had been fired yards away. The sighting distance target for a .22 rifle is done at a 150 yards. That is why imo there are exit wounds because they were fired so close up to the victims.

imoo

[Kether]

Thanks for the replies. I remember now, it was prairie dogs, I don't know why I thought I read pheasant. :confused: Anyway, a 22 wouldn't be the gun of choice for praire dogs or any type of small animal. Even with a adult as the target, a shooter would have to know where to shoot in order to kill and it would be a moving target. I still have trouble believing an 8 year old is capable of this, especially reloading after each shot. The kid would have to be thinking, ok, shoot in the head, reload, shoot in the head, reload, shoot in the chest, reload, shoot in the chest, reload and on and on. It is possible, but I will continue to wait on the evidence. It seems to me if LE wanted everyone to fully accept the charges in this case, some damaging evidence would be presented. Yet, there hasn't been much released at all. If they are going to smear this child before the media, the least they could do is make sure, we all know the evidence. Smearing this child before the world, acceptable. Releasing info that proves they are sure this child commited this crime, oh, they can't do that, now they are protecting the child? What a bunch of BS. They should have kept their mouths shut completely, if they were truly concerned for this child. Instead, they lead everyone to believe he is a monster and people are lapping it up without even knowing the evidence. :mad:
Is there any chance we will ever see any evidence in this case?

[muska]

I have been reading a forum where gun owners have been debating how deadly a 22LR and other 22s are. Two things of interest:
1) One guy who claimed to have a "shady" past and crazy friends said that a lot of professional assasins/hitmen like to use the 22 for head shots because the bullet will "just bounce around inside the brain and kill the person." He said the 22 lacks the velocity to exit the head.

Obviously there will be exceptions but the posters all seemed to agree that the 22 does a lot of its harm because it doesn't exit the body as easily as other bullets.

2) Someone said the 17HMR is much more deadly than the 22 due to its greater speed and ballistic tip.

Hope I understood well enough to make sense.

[GentleBreeze]

Thanks for the replies. I remember now, it was prairie dogs, I don't know why I thought I read pheasant. :confused: Anyway, a 22 wouldn't be the gun of choice for prairie dogs or any type of small animal. Even with a adult as the target, a shooter would have to know where to shoot in order to kill and it would be a moving target. I still have trouble believing an 8 year old is capable of this, especially reloading after each shot. The kid would have to be thinking, ok, shoot in the head, reload, shoot in the head, reload, shoot in the chest, reload, shoot in the chest, reload and on and on. It is possible, but I will continue to wait on the evidence. It seems to me if LE wanted everyone to fully accept the charges in this case, some damaging evidence would be presented. Yet, there hasn't been much released at all. If they are going to smear this child before the media, the least they could do is make sure, we all know the evidence. Smearing this child before the world, acceptable. Releasing info that proves they are sure this child committed this crime, oh, they can't do that, now they are protecting the child? What a bunch of BS. They should have kept their mouths shut completely, if they were truly concerned for this child. Instead, they lead everyone to believe he is a monster and people are lapping it up without even knowing the evidence. :mad:
Is there any chance we will ever see any evidence in this case?

Yes, the .22 rifle Chipmunk youth model is a perfect gun for small game like a prairie dog, chipmunks (hence its name), rabbits. That is why it is one of the most often bought guns for young children who game hunt smaller animals.

It takes no skill to kill a human being who is a much larger target but it does when killing a very quick small animal that is shot from many yards away.

imoo

[Kether]

I have been reading a forum where gun owners have been debating how deadly a 22LR and other 22s are. Two things of interest:
1) One guy who claimed to have a "shady" past and crazy friends said that a lot of professional assasins/hitmen like to use the 22 for head shots because the bullet will "just bounce around inside the brain and kill the person." He said the 22 lacks the velocity to exit the head.

Obviously there will be exceptions but the posters all seemed to agree that the 22 does a lot of its harm because it doesn't exit the body as easily as other bullets.

2) Someone said the 17HMR is much more deadly than the 22 due to its greater speed and ballistic tip.

Hope I understood well enough to make sense.

:huh: UH, yeah, he does sound a little more than shady. But, the info you have posted seems correct to me.

[GentleBreeze]

I have been reading a forum where gun owners have been debating how deadly a 22LR and other 22s are. Two things of interest:
1) One guy who claimed to have a "shady" past and crazy friends said that a lot of professional assassins/hitmen like to use the 22 for head shots because the bullet will "just bounce around inside the brain and kill the person." He said the 22 lacks the velocity to exit the head.

Obviously there will be exceptions but the posters all seemed to agree that the 22 does a lot of its harm because it doesn't exit the body as easily as other bullets.

2) Someone said the 17HMR is much more deadly than the 22 due to its greater speed and ballistic tip.

Hope I understood well enough to make sense.

You make perfect sense.

Yes, and a .22 bullet fired from a rifle has a higher velocity than a .22 handgun, due to the length of the barrel being much longer to expel the bullet forward.

I put a link up here at one time that shows a .22 bullet shot from a .22 long rifle can go up to a mile in distance in a straight line.

imoo

[Kether]

Yes, the .22 rifle Chipmunk youth model is a perfect gun for small game like a prairie dog, chipmunks (hence its name), rabbits. That is why it is one of the most often bought guns for young children who game hunt smaller animals.

It takes no skill to kill a human being who is a much larger target but it does when killing a very quick small animal that is shot from many yards away.

imoo

It is the easiest gun to shoot, but it is not the easiest gun to use when hunting small game. In fact, it is quite hard to do. A 22 is usually used when training someone to shoot, because it doesn't have a kick when fired. But, hitting a moving small target for a beginner would be tough. But, yes it would be very easy to aim at a large target and hit. But, for an 8 year old child, it would have to be at close range. I am not even quite sure myself, why I am wanting these particular questions answered, but it is something that bothers me when I think about this case. Of course, everything about this case bothers me.

[GentleBreeze]

It is the easiest gun to shoot, but it is not the easiest gun to use when hunting small game. In fact, it is quite hard to do. A 22 is usually used when training someone to shoot, because it doesn't have a kick when fired. But, hitting a moving small target for a beginner would be tough. But, yes it would be very easy to aim at a large target and hit. But, for an 8 year old child, it would have to be at close range. I am not even quite sure myself, why I am wanting these particular questions answered, but it is something that bothers me when I think about this case. Of course, everything about this case bothers me.


I respectfully don't agree. I have used a .22 rifle since I was 7 years old. It was used to shoot small game. I also used it in target competitions around the holidays and the prize was a turkey for those who hit the bullseye most often. I had no problems whatsoever using it and killed the small game without them suffering. Children are quick learners and they have extremely fast reflexes.

It is used and it is used most often by children of this age to kill small game. It is extremely easy to load and reload. It is extremely accurate. It is very lightweight......around 2.5 pounds.

imoo

[muska]

If the person in my post was accurate and shady characters like to use the 22 for headshots, that's one more reason that the police should be looking into such things as drug deals gone bad and fights at work/bars.

I remember when the police first arrived at the house one said the first thought was that it could be a drug overdose or drug related. I wonder if there was a specific reason for that thought or if it was just that in general there's a drug problem in the area. I've read that meth is a big problem there as it is in lots of places around the country.

[GentleBreeze]

If the person in my post was accurate and shady characters like to use the 22 for headshots, that's one more reason that the police should be looking into such things as drug deals gone bad and fights at work/bars.

I remember when the police first arrived at the house one said the first thought was that it could be a drug overdose or drug related. I wonder if there was a specific reason for that thought or if it was just that in general there's a drug problem in the area. I've read that meth is a big problem there as it is in lots of places around the country.

Ok so bad guys are known to use .22 handguns. Well if they know that head shots are the thing and get the job done then why the other unnecessary 5 shots done?

I think the police thought it was probably a drug deal because they don't have murders in that town but once every 20 years. I would think they do have drug arrest sense that seems to have to escalated in all cities including rural areas. I think they assumed because murder was not on their minds as a possibility, much less two murders.

imo

[FurthurBB]

I respectfully don't agree. I have used a .22 rifle since I was 7 years old. It was used to shoot small game. I also used it in target competitions around the holidays and the prize was a turkey for those who hit the bullseye most often. I had no problems whatsoever using it and killed the small game without them suffering. Children are quick learners and they have extremely fast reflexes.

It is used and it is used most often by children of this age to kill small game. It is extremely easy to load and reload. It is extremely accurate. It is very lightweight......around 2.5 pounds.

imoo

Actually, reflexes are at their peak between 25-40. Reflexes are associated with motor skills which grow as children grow. You are not born with fast reflexes or good motor skills. IMO

[bkwits]

Ok so bad guys are known to use .22 handguns. Well if they know that head shots are the thing and get the job done then why the other unnecessary 5 shots done?

I think the police thought it was probably a drug deal because they don't have murders in that town but once every 20 years. I would think they do have drug arrest sense that seems to have to escalated in all cities including rural areas. I think they assumed because murder was not on their minds as a possibility, much less two murders.

imo

There was at least one other homicide within the past 4 years.

[muska]

Autopsy results out - channel 15 has an article, results released by medical examiner - nothing too new, I don't think - probably all of the Phoenix stations will have them soon

[GentleBreeze]

Actually, reflexes are at their peak between 25-40. Reflexes are associated with motor skills which grow as children grow. You are not born with fast reflexes or good motor skills. IMO

All I know children are very fast learners at this age and even competition shoot at this age, which also can be timed shoots on the amounts and bullseyes made within a short length of time. They are very capable of shooting, fast moving game targets when younger. Kids at 8 years old are even capable of bringing down a large deer.

I certainly wasn't above average and I was smaller than this boy when I first started shooting. I was fast and my aim was very good from the very beginning.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

There was at least one other homicide within the past 4 years.



Who was that?

Thanks.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Autopsy results out - channel 15 has an article, results released by medical examiner - nothing too new, I don't think - probably all of the Phoenix stations will have them soon

Looks like if it has been released by the ME the Appache court site would have them.

imoo

[bkwits]

Who was that?

Thanks.

imoo

I don't know the name of the person, but I believe your statement was inaccurate. It was the first "double homicide' in 20 years.

IMO

[GentleBreeze]

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/Autopsy-St-Johns-murder-victims-each-shot-several/gsb18gJlwkizzVprKFwW0A.cspx

Copyrighted.

[GentleBreeze]

I don't know the name of the person, but I believe your statement was inaccurate. It was the first "double homicide' in 20 years.

IMO

This link looks like there hasnt been any murders there.

http://www.idcide.com/citydata/az/st-johns.htm

[bkwits]

Autopsy results out - channel 15 has an article, results released by medical examiner - nothing too new, I don't think - probably all of the Phoenix stations will have them soon


You know those stairs are pretty steep. The ME says he thinks the shooter who shot Vincent was at the bottom of the stairs shooting upwards. One shot was close range. I assume the bottom of the stairs would be the landing. So if it was the child, he would have to airm from the bottom landing, get off 3 shots, then climb up and shoot him again. If one of the head shots was close-range, he would have had to go climb over his dad and shoot him in the head.

IMO

[GentleBreeze]

You know those stairs are pretty steep. The ME says he thinks the shooter who shot Vincent was at the bottom of the stairs shooting upwards. One shot was close range. I assume the bottom of the stairs would be the landing. So if it was the child, he would have to airm from the bottom landing, get off 3 shots, then climb up and shoot him again. If one of the head shots was close-range, he would have had to go climb over his dad and shoot him in the head.

IMO

Yes, that is what I have said all along. He shot these shots while he was below him on the stairs platform or on the first level where the stairs begin. Shooting up at an angle toward his dad, as his dad walked up the stairs.

We do not know if VR's body blocked his path totally or if he could have just stepped over his arm area or there was enough room for him to step around his body, to shoot the head shot as he stood over him as he lay there.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Also in the same report it stated the toxicology tests showed no alcohol or drugs in either victim.

imoo

[bkwits]

Yes, that is what I have said all along. He shot these shots while he was below him on the stairs platform or on the first level where the stairs begin. Shooting up at an angle toward his dad, as his dad walked up the stairs.

We do not know if VR's body blocked his path totally or if he could have just stepped over his arm area or there was enough room for him to step around his body, to shoot the head shot as he stood over him as he lay there.

imoo



You can see in all the crime scene Photos that those stairs are very narrow with walls on each side. Much like my basement stairs, with a handrail on one side. An adult could prob approach the body bend over and place a close range shot. I think it would be very difficult for this small child. IMO

[Details]

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/Autopsy-St-Johns-murder-victims-each-shot-several/gsb18gJlwkizzVprKFwW0A.cspx

Copyrighted.One close shot for each of them (the kill shot in the head?), the rest from further away - 2 and a half feet or more. Each had one arm graze. Tim's was definite overkill.

[GentleBreeze]

You can see in all the crime scene Photos that those stairs are very narrow with walls on each side. Much like my basement stairs, with a handrail on one side. An adult could prob approach the body bend over and place a close range shot. I think it would be very difficult for this small child. IMO

I think it would be easy.

If VR was already bleeding from the shots he received from the shooter being at the bottom of the stairs then LE should find bloody footprint impressions on the carpet around the body itself. As far as I know they have not released the ones of Romero showing where his body was exactly located or the amount of blood that had seeped out around the body.

I do know that the DA did file a motion for physical evidence of the boy and footprints were included and granted.

If someone bent over with a long barrel the wounds would show soot and stippling. I think he went beyond his dad to the next platform once he knew he was down and disabled and then fired the final shot probably at least 3-4 feet away.



imoo

[Justice_Dawg]

You know those stairs are pretty steep. The ME says he thinks the shooter who shot Vincent was at the bottom of the stairs shooting upwards. One shot was close range. I assume the bottom of the stairs would be the landing. So if it was the child, he would have to airm from the bottom landing, get off 3 shots, then climb up and shoot him again. If one of the head shots was close-range, he would have had to go climb over his dad and shoot him in the head.

IMO

The kid didn't do it. I am sure of that. :thumbup:

[Justice_Dawg]

Look at these crime scene photos of casings on the steps

http://www.kpho.com/slideshow/news/18019101/detail.html

at least 3 from behind the body, and VR had 2 chest wounds. ??

BUMP post from last night

D@mn I am good. :tonguewag:

[GentleBreeze]

The kid didn't do it. I am sure of that. :thumbup:

How do you know that?

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

BUMP post from last night

D@mn I am good. :tonguewag:

Then I am confused even more by your reply to my previous post last night.

#200 12-19-2008, 11:21 PM
Justice_Dawg
Registered User Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Cincinnati Ohio
Posts: 4,823

Quote:
Originally Posted by GentleBreeze
That would make sense if the shooter was below him on the stairs or a platform, firing up at him as he was climbing the stairs.imoo

Reply: Justice Dawg

Huh ????????????????

[PensiveOne]

http://www.kgun9.com/Global/story.asp?S=9558167

It looks like none of the shots were at close range. Tim Romans was hit twice in the chest, one in his heart and 3 in his head...one of those from the back. Vince Romero had two in the head one from above. Whoever did this was definately out to kill them. No doubt about that, but I was surprised that none of the shots were from close range. So the perp was a good shot. I thought they would say more about the bullets and which shots were fatal. :unsure:

[Justice_Dawg]

Then I am confused even more by your reply to my previous post last night.

#200 12-19-2008, 11:21 PM
Justice_Dawg
Registered User Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Cincinnati Ohio
Posts: 4,823

Quote:
Originally Posted by GentleBreeze
That would make sense if the shooter was below him on the stairs or a platform, firing up at him as he was climbing the stairs.imoo

Reply: Justice Dawg

Huh ????????????????

You Quoted that to this, which is now known to be completely WRONG!:
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkwits
Webb Hogle Pg 14, lines 4-8, he says VR was shot up through the jaw and exited the top of the head, and also shot down through the hard hat.

Do you think that means he was shot through the jaw standing up and through the top of his head when he was down on the stairs?

[GentleBreeze]

http://www.kgun9.com/Global/story.asp?S=9558167

It looks like none of the shots were at close range. Tim Romans was hit twice in the chest, one in his heart and 3 in his head...one of those from the back. Vince Romero had two in the head one from above. Whoever did this was definitely out to kill them. No doubt about that, but I was surprised that none of the shots were from close range. So the perp was a good shot. I thought they would say more about the bullets and which shots were fatal. :unsure:


I really didn't expect any of these shots to be a close range in forensic terms. (2-2.5 feet or less) A .22 rifle has a long barrel unlike a .22 handgun. One wouldn't stand too close to the victims and give them a chance to lunge for the barrel that would be extended toward them.

imoo

[Justice_Dawg]

How do you know that?

imoo

Because I watched some guys shoot a dear with a chipmunk gun from 12, 10 and 5 ft away and it didn't even come close to the kind of damage these men had.

[GentleBreeze]

You Quoted that to this, which is now known to be completely WRONG!:
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkwits
Webb Hogle Pg 14, lines 4-8, he says VR was shot up through the jaw and exited the top of the head, and also shot down through the hard hat.

Do you think that means he was shot through the jaw standing up and through the top of his head when he was down on the stairs?

What is wrong with it?

The shots to the side of his face, his back and elbow could have been done when standing while climbing the stairs with the shooter below him and the final shot to the head was done when he was already down and dying.:confused:

[Justice_Dawg]

Mexican Nationals are known for 2 shots to the torso, 2 shots to the head with .22 rifles.
Look it up.
:seeya: