Dec. 7th thru 14th

[Justice_Dawg]

if he takes the plea bargin he did it. Case closed

Who would take a plea with no discovery???

[PensiveOne]

The plea was part of the Motion to dismiss. All the plea was is "if" the boy did it, the state promised to keep everything in Juvenile court, and the boy would never be tried as an adult. (So out when he is 18 yrs no matter what)

The judge doesn't want to address the motion while a competency issue in the case is still pending; he ordered all proceedings stayed until the evaluations are complete. So there is no deal to take at this point.

The Prosecutors had a fit. They even offered to DISMISS BOTH MURDER CHARGES!

They are scared to death that he will be deemed incompetent to stand trial.

I pray that the boy did not do this. However, if he did, I do NOT want him to walk away with no consequences. He should be punished if he did it. I hope the truth comes out soon. Even if he had an accomplice there should be punishment. JMO

[LindaNJ1216]

The plea was part of the Motion to dismiss. All the plea was is "if" the boy did it, the state promised to keep everything in Juvenile court, and the boy would never be tried as an adult. (So out when he is 18 yrs no matter what)

The judge doesn't want to address the motion while a competency issue in the case is still pending; he ordered all proceedings stayed until the evaluations are complete. So there is no deal to take at this point.

The Prosecutors had a fit. They even offered to DISMISS BOTH MURDER CHARGES!

They are scared to death that he will be deemed incompetent to stand trial.


The prosecution wants him to GET HELP. If you cared about the boy you would too.


His laywer has never said he wasn't guilty.

[LindaNJ1216]

I just read the story about the 6 year old who killed his classmate. What a tragic story. In that story, it is quite apparent that this child was a victim of terrible neglect. He lived in a crack house surrounded by guns and saw people touting them around to say "I'm so tough...don't mess with me!" He says he brought the gun to school to scare the little girl and ended up shooting her.

If anyone should be punished for this crime it is the adults who have given this child access to this gun and allowed him to go to school with it. Do you know what is in your first graders backpack? I do!

I am no anti-gun person, as I feel it is an important right. But with rights come responsibility. We have freedom of speech, but it ends when we yell FIRE in a crowded movie theater. The problem with guns is that they create a non-violent way to kill. All it requires is pulling a trigger. There is no beating or stabbing or strangling or fighting of any kind involved. Not much thought needs to go into pulling a trigger and it truly is the only simple way for a child to kill an adult.

I truly feel that the adults in this household need to be held accountable (if proven the boy did it) for their neglect and irresponsibility. Tiffany, Vincent and Tim lived in a house with loaded weapons and ammunition and an 8 year old child. If the child had taken that gun and shot one of his friends, his parents, at the very least, would be arrested. Why are they not in this case? And if there is no law, there should be-gun state or no gun state.

IMO

And please do not say I am bashing victims. I am simply stating my opinion on the circumstances surrounding this terrible tragedy.

Antifreeze comes to mind.

[bkwits]

if he takes the plea bargin he did it. Case closed

Yep, that's what I thought.

[Justice_Dawg]

The prosecution wants him to GET HELP. If you cared about the boy you would too.


His laywer has never said he wasn't guilty.

THE DEFENSE WANTS DISCOVERY! Is that to much to ask???


Yes Mr Wood has said he has seen NOTHING that shows his client fired any of those 10 shots:
http://www.abc15.com/mediacenter/local.aspx?videoid=17704@knxv.dayport.com&navCatId=3

Start at 11:00 min.

[Justice_Dawg]

Yep, that's what I thought.

That is wrong. :tonguewag:

[LindaNJ1216]

Can you please find me a link of a case involving a person under 10 poisoning someone with antifreeze?

Not even going to look.

But I can link you to an 8 year old that deliberately murdered two men.:tonguewag:

[bkwits]

The prosecution wants him to GET HELP. If you cared about the boy you would too.


His laywer has never said he wasn't guilty.

But why can't he be released to his mom until he goes to trial or at least until the evidence comes back.

One of the notable cases involving children this age and false confessions was the Ryan Harris murder. LE said the 7 and 8 year old boys bashed Ryan's head in with a brick and molested her (sexually?). LE made the confession fit the crime as much as they could.

Anyway, the boys were placed on house arrest and fitted with ankle bracelets awaiting trial.

Of course, the evidence showed that a serial rapist murdered the child. Floyd Durr was out there raping a 5 year old while the little boys were whisked in and out of court. :cursing:

[Justice_Dawg]

Not even going to look.

But I can link you to an 8 year old that deliberately murdered two men.:tonguewag:

We missed the trial and conviction??? :scared:


:rolleyes:

[bkwits]

Not even going to look.

But I can link you to an 8 year old that deliberately murdered two men.:tonguewag:

Is there evidence that he did it?

[muska]

THE DEFENSE WANTS DISCOVERY! Is that to much to ask???


Yes Mr Wood has said he has seen NOTHING that shows his client fired any of those 10 shots:
http://www.abc15.com/mediacenter/local.aspx?videoid=17704@knxv.dayport.com&navCatId=3

Start at 11:00 min.

Is that lawyer Woods? I was thinking that was Brewer. He also said, "I'm not convinced by the interview conducted by the two officers that what they got him to say is what really happened. They're going to have to show me a lot more than a DVD..."

[wolfi_2]

I just read the story about the 6 year old who killed his classmate. What a tragic story. In that story, it is quite apparent that this child was a victim of terrible neglect. He lived in a crack house surrounded by guns and saw people touting them around to say "I'm so tough...don't mess with me!" He says he brought the gun to school to scare the little girl and ended up shooting her.

If anyone should be punished for this crime it is the adults who have given this child access to this gun and allowed him to go to school with it. Do you know what is in your first graders backpack? I do!

I am no anti-gun person, as I feel it is an important right. But with rights come responsibility. We have freedom of speech, but it ends when we yell FIRE in a crowded movie theater. The problem with guns is that they create a non-violent way to kill. All it requires is pulling a trigger. There is no beating or stabbing or strangling or fighting of any kind involved. Not much thought needs to go into pulling a trigger and it truly is the only simple way for a child to kill an adult.

I truly feel that the adults in this household need to be held accountable (if proven the boy did it) for their neglect and irresponsibility. Tiffany, Vincent and Tim lived in a house with loaded weapons and ammunition and an 8 year old child. If the child had taken that gun and shot one of his friends, his parents, at the very least, would be arrested. Why are they not in this case? And if there is no law, there should be-gun state or no gun state.

IMO

And please do not say I am bashing victims. I am simply stating my opinion on the circumstances surrounding this terrible tragedy.

-this is close to that what will happened in other countries in this case. There where I live, the boy would be always free, maybe with his mom maybe in the so called foster home , cause the full responsibility for a kid below 14 years, had the adult who had the custody for the child, in this case his dad. -The boy would get some psychiatric help here, but never was placed in jail or in handcuffs and he would never been prosecuted, and absolutely never prosecuted as adult.

[Justice_Dawg]

Is that lawyer Woods? I was thinking that was Brewer. He also said, "I'm not convinced by the interview conducted by the two officers that what they got him to say is what really happened. They're going to have to show me a lot more than a DVD..."

His name is Ron Wood.
Brewer is a lot younger.


The child didn't do this crime. I am convinced of that.

MOO

[Justice_Dawg]

The judge in this case has already stated that his court is not equipped to handle the case of a child this young. But he remains locked up.
:crying:

If his mother didn't live out of state, he most likely wouldn't be.

[LindaNJ1216]

Is placing the child in juvie for the next 10 years going to give him the help he would need, if he were guilty? Aren't there other options?

He would get therapy there or in some other locked secured facilty for young violent offenders. He would able get an education.

What do you want to see happen to him if he's guilty?

[Justice_Dawg]

Think about this:

If the child is innocent, the killer/s are out there.
What if the boy DID see who did this crime?
If the judge let's him out, the boy is a target.

The judge is covering his buttox.


imo

[LindaNJ1216]

Is that lawyer Woods? I was thinking that was Brewer. He also said, "I'm not convinced by the interview conducted by the two officers that what they got him to say is what really happened. They're going to have to show me a lot more than a DVD..."

If he REALLY cared about finding the truth, he'd talk to the boy. He doesn't want the truth...he's a defense attorney!

[Justice_Dawg]

If he REALLY cared about finding the truth, he'd talk to the boy. He doesn't want the truth...he's a defense attorney!

Do you have something against defense attorneys???? Or 8 yr olds???


imo

[bkwits]

The prosecution wants him to GET HELP. If you cared about the boy you would too.


His laywer has never said he wasn't guilty.

He's certainly never said he was. He is refusing to take the plea deal. Why would he do that if he thought the evidence would show the child is guilty?:shrug:

[Justice_Dawg]

He's certainly never said he was. He is refusing to take the plea deal. Why would he do that if he thought the evidence would show the child is guilty?:shrug:

Cheers to you!

[bkwits]

The judge and the prosecution as well as LE thinks so.

So you are saying the judge has already made the decision that the child is guilty

If the judge thinks he did it, then we don't need a trial, right? After all, the judge is the one who decides in his case.

This is like a Charles Dickens novel, only 150 years later and in AMERICA. :sad: IMO

[wolfi_2]

-then the judge is embarrassed.

[bkwits]

OK folks...there you have it....defense lawyers do not want the truth and prosecutors do. WOW! Now I get it!!!! Defense lawyers=bad. Prosecutors=good.

My bad.:blushing:

YEAH, I guess that is why Chicago and other counties, and communities in my state are paying millions of dollars to settle wrongful convictions.

At least 13 death row inmates completely exonerated before Gov Ryan put a moratorium on executions. :cursing:

[LindaNJ1216]

Do you have something against defense attorneys???? Or 8 yr olds???


to


?
Most defense attorneys and murderers...regardless of age

[Justice_Dawg]

?
Most defense attorneys and murderers...regardless of age

Why did you edit MY post?

[Justice_Dawg]

-then the judge is embarrassed.

Why? :confused:

[bkwits]

Hey...I'm from Northern Illinois too! So proud to be an Illinoisan today! :rolleyes:

Yep, the machine grinds on. Maybe Gov B. and ex Gov Ryan can be cellmates. :thumbdown:

[bookie]

The judge and the prosecution as well as LE thinks so.




Nifong thought 3 Duke Lacrosse players raped a stripper. He thought wrong.

Laura Gunn thought Cynthia Sommer poisoned her husband to death. A jury agreed with her. They all thought wrong.

The FBI thought Richard Jewell bombed Atlanta's Olympic Park. They thought wrong.

I could go on and on but I'd be wasting my time. You have decided this boy is guilty and nothing is going to change your mind.

[FurthurBB]

?
Most defense attorneys and murderers...regardless of age

At least with defense attorneys everyone knows what they are about. Prosecutors are just as bad, but, people think they are looking for justice. IMO

[Justice_Dawg]

YEAH, I guess that is why Chicago and other counties, and communities in my state are paying millions of dollars to settle wrongful convictions.

At least 13 death row inmates completely exonerated before Gov Ryan put a moratorium on executions. :cursing:

Ohio is just as bad. :cursing:

[bookie]

If he REALLY cared about finding the truth, he'd talk to the boy. He doesn't want the truth...he's a defense attorney!



He seems to care more then some. He is waiting for the test results that should answer many questions in this case. He hasn't made up his mind.

From the tone of your posts I hope you never need a defense attorney but if you do I hope you get one that really doesn't care. Then you'll see the value of a defense.

[Justice_Dawg]

At least with defense attorneys everyone knows what they are about. Prosecutors are just as bad, but, people think they are looking for justice. IMO

Sure, I know what defense attorneys are about.
They are about finding out if the Prosecutors are right or wrong in their accusations against their clients. I see nothing wrong with that.

moo

[GentleBreeze]

http://abclocal.go.com/kfsn/story?section=news/national_world&id=6545622

AP Copyrighted

Spokesperson for the Romero family speaks out.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

I think that link is an older story where Big John of the Romans family spoke out. Is there a different link?

Seems to be in the recent days. It is the original AP article dated December 8th ....not an updated one.

imoo

[SeeksJustice]

Has anyone been able to find out what the AZ law is regarding the questioning of a minor by LE is? We all know that he was questioned, apparently by the permission of the step-mother, but does anyone know of the actual law? Considering she did not have the right to premit such a thing.

I know in the state of Wisconsin it is illegal to question a minor without legal council, parent or guardian and that in the state of Washington, only a child between the age of 13 - 16 can be questioned without permission of council, parent or guardian.

I tried to see what I could find but came up with nothing. Anyone know?

[GentleBreeze]

Right...from yesterday...the story quotes Big John, representing the Romans family, not the Romero family. Is there supposed to be another story that quotes a spokeperson for the Romero family? I'm just asking, because if there is, I would really like to read it.

Thansk

Thank you. Yes, you are right. I inadvertently wrote Romero when I should have written Romans instead.

Sorry.

imoo

[JD1974]

if he takes the plea bargin he did it. Case closed



You cannot be serious, people take pleas every day. People who are afraid of being innocent and sitting in jail for 3 years when the plea is for 3 months. Look at the innocent people who sit in jail for years before being let out, I bet they wish they had taken a plea. Some people just don't seem to understand that innocent people DO go to jail for crimes they did not commit.

[JD1974]

I don't get why it would be thought of as laughable or sad - especially considering the forum.

Would not the legal proceedings have to be done in a certain way - and also most likely transcribed and/or recorded - "for the record"?

If so, would that not explain why it is being done in such a "laughable" and "sad" way? IOW, it is being done as prescribed by law, is it not?

:confused:

Martek


It is sad because we are talking about an 8 year old little boy, it would be laughable that the judge is trying to talk to him as an adult if it wasn't for his age.

[JD1974]

Antifreeze comes to mind.


I have a serious question, if this boy really did the crime yet didn't have a gun to commit it, do you think both men would of died? Personally I think if he used any other weapon he would of been overpowered after the first hit and the weapon would of been taken away.

[IAMME]

The judge and the prosecution as well as LE thinks so.

DN: Um, absolutely not. My, interest in that, is that, I’ve arrested an eight year old kid, that I know. And, I’m a grandma and a mother. I’m sorry but, I’m, really havin trouble with this. And, my interest is that, I, by golly, if I can prove that kid didn’t do it, I’m gonna prove it.

And at some point one of the officers says something about there being a killer out there, in the current sense, bc I remember thinking when I read it that the defense would use it...

It doesnt sound to me as if LE is 100% convinced that he did.

[JD1974]

Not even going to look.

But I can link you to an 8 year old that deliberately murdered two men.:tonguewag:

Can you link that please? If you are reffering to this case there hasn't even been a trial let alone a conviction.

[JD1974]

The judge and the prosecution as well as LE thinks so.

Go to innocenceproject.org, I wonder how many of those men LE, prosecutors and the judge thought were guilty? I would say roughly 100% but I may be on the frugal side. Just like we here have differing opinions on things, le, judges, prosecutors are human just like we are and they have thoughts just like we do...so just because they THINK someone is guilty doesn't mean they are.

I read a story about a mentally handicapped couple, the woman lied and said she was pregnant to get out of jail, LE sees her a few months later, no baby. This woman tells LE they killed the baby...this woman couldn't even have children yet the prosecutor TO THIS DAY thinks they murdered a baby, one that never existed! These people went to jail even though there was no proof this woman was ever pregnant or had given birth. They did a test on her that proved she couldn't have children yet the prosecutor still says they killed the baby!

[Justice_Dawg]

http://abclocal.go.com/kfsn/story?section=news/national_world&id=6545622

AP Copyrighted

Spokesperson for the Romero family speaks out.

imoo



That headline says Murder case against 8-year-old delayed

:confused:

[JD1974]

http://abclocal.go.com/kfsn/story?section=news/national_world&id=6545622

AP Copyrighted

Spokesperson for the Romero family speaks out.

imoo



You know that is such BS, dropping the charges so they can file on him as an adult later...an adult didn't commit the crime! They should have to try him as the age he was when he committed the crime, not wait 10 years and then he can get life. What a messed up system we have...lets just wait until he understands what's going on, who cares that he was a baby when this happened, now we can charge him as an adult in an adult court for a crime he committed when he didn't know the difference. We need some new laws.

Oh yeah and I still don't think he did it, I was using that as an example.

[JD1974]

Has anyone been able to find out what the AZ law is regarding the questioning of a minor by LE is? We all know that he was questioned, apparently by the permission of the step-mother, but does anyone know of the actual law? Considering she did not have the right to premit such a thing.

I know in the state of Wisconsin it is illegal to question a minor without legal council, parent or guardian and that in the state of Washington, only a child between the age of 13 - 16 can be questioned without permission of council, parent or guardian.

I tried to see what I could find but came up with nothing. Anyone know?


You know what amazes me, this is where the Miranda warning was born and they still did this to this little kid, maybe AZ will be instrumental in making new laws as to how kids are NOT to be treated, just like they gave us all Miranda.

[Justice_Dawg]

Arizona ia where it all began.

------------------
Your "Miranda Rights" help protect your right against self-incrimination, as provided by the Fifth Amendment of the US Constitution. These rights are based on the Supreme Court decision in Miranda v. Arizona.
---------------------------------
http://www.thecapras.org/mcapra/miranda/rights.html

[Justice_Dawg]

You know what amazes me, this is where the Miranda warning was born and they still did this to this little kid, maybe AZ will be instrumental in making new laws as to how kids are NOT to be treated, just like they gave us all Miranda.LOL, I see you already said it JD.

[JD1974]

LOL, I see you already said it JD.



We are on the same wavelength on this, that is what amazes me so much about what they did though. Miranda vs AZ made a new constitutional law, are they working on another one to add to the list?

[Justice_Dawg]

We are on the same wavelength on this, that is what amazes me so much about what they did though. Miranda vs AZ made a new constitutional law, are they working on another one to add to the list?

Seems so. Just with a Juvenile this time.

[muska]

There are no juvenile facilities that are capable of safely housing an eight year old in the general population. Just look what they had to do in the current facility - empty out a wing so the boy can be in solitary. The only way you could put an elementary school child in one of these centers, is if you simply want to ignore what would happen to him there.

Here's some info from a March, 2008 AP article: Between 2004 and 2007there were 13,000 claims of abuse in juvenile centers around the country. In a broader study in 2004, the US Justice Dept uncovered 2,821 allegations of sexual abuse by juvenile corrections staffers. Some experts say the number of sex abuse incidents is likely even higher. Other abuse is physical, often sadistic. At least 5 have died since 2004 after being placed in restraints. At least 24 more died from suicide or natural causes. Sex among detainees is a major problem in some facilities, a claim backed by govt findings. AZ recently emerged from a lawsuit the Justice Dept filed after 3 youngsters commited suicide, and is making an attempt to meet recs made by the federal govt.

Anyone still think this might be appropriate?

[Justice_Dawg]

There are no juvenile facilities that are capable of safely housing an eight year old in the general population. Just look what they had to do in the current facility - empty out a wing so the boy can be in solitary. The only way you could put an elementary school child in one of these centers, is if you simply want to ignore what would happen to him there.

Here's some info from a March, 2008 AP article: Between 2004 and 2007there were 13,000 claims of abuse in juvenile centers around the country. In a broader study in 2004, the US Justice Dept uncovered 2,821 allegations of sexual abuse by juvenile corrections staffers. Some experts say the number of sex abuse incidents is likely even higher. Other abuse is physical, often sadistic. At least 5 have died since 2004 after being placed in restraints. At least 24 more died from suicide or natural causes. Sex among detainees is a major problem in some facilities, a claim backed by govt findings. AZ recently emerged from a lawsuit the Justice Dept filed after 3 youngsters commited suicide, and is making an attempt to meet recs made by the federal govt.

Anyone still think this might be appropriate?

I can only think of 2 on this forum that would say yes. :cursing::cursing::cursing:

[LindaNJ1216]

Why did you edit MY post?

I don't know...don't know where the "?" came from either. I am sorry, I certainly didn't mean to.

[LindaNJ1216]

Nifong thought 3 Duke Lacrosse players raped a stripper. He thought wrong.

Laura Gunn thought Cynthia Sommer poisoned her husband to death. A jury agreed with her. They all thought wrong.

The FBI thought Richard Jewell bombed Atlanta's Olympic Park. They thought wrong.

I could go on and on but I'd be wasting my time. You have decided this boy is guilty and nothing is going to change your mind.

I thought the Duke boys were innocent, I thought Cynthia Sommers was innocent and Richard Jewell's case I never followed.

You're right. I do believe he's guilty, my mind won't be swayed on a message board and far fetched finger pointing at others.

[LindaNJ1216]

Sure, I know what defense attorneys are about.
They are about finding out if the Prosecutors are right or wrong in their accusations against their clients. I see nothing wrong with that.

moo


Defense attorney represent very few innocent people, the honest ones will admit it.

[LindaNJ1216]

I have a serious question, if this boy really did the crime yet didn't have a gun to commit it, do you think both men would of died? Personally I think if he used any other weapon he would of been overpowered after the first hit and the weapon would of been taken away.

Honestly, I think he would have poisoned them

[LindaNJ1216]

There are no juvenile facilities that are capable of safely housing an eight year old in the general population. Just look what they had to do in the current facility - empty out a wing so the boy can be in solitary. The only way you could put an elementary school child in one of these centers, is if you simply want to ignore what would happen to him there.

Here's some info from a March, 2008 AP article: Between 2004 and 2007there were 13,000 claims of abuse in juvenile centers around the country. In a broader study in 2004, the US Justice Dept uncovered 2,821 allegations of sexual abuse by juvenile corrections staffers. Some experts say the number of sex abuse incidents is likely even higher. Other abuse is physical, often sadistic. At least 5 have died since 2004 after being placed in restraints. At least 24 more died from suicide or natural causes. Sex among detainees is a major problem in some facilities, a claim backed by govt findings. AZ recently emerged from a lawsuit the Justice Dept filed after 3 youngsters committed suicide, and is making an attempt to meet recs made by the federal govt.

Anyone still think this might be appropriate?


Appropriate? It's all there is. Do you suggest we let them all out and give them a firm talking to, a pat on the head and a little out-patient therapy?

[Details]

....You're right. I do believe he's guilty, my mind won't be swayed on a message board and far fetched finger pointing at others.Yeah, I knew that from the moment you gave your reasons for believing him guilty, almost all of them were falsehoods, and you just vanished from the board for a time, and didn't care that your reasons for thinking him guilty didn't exist (demeanor at funeral, fingerprints, ballistics evidence - the first he wasn't at, the second two, even police haven't said they have). That's a definite indication no amount of discussion of the facts of the case will sway you.

[PensiveOne]

There are no juvenile facilities that are capable of safely housing an eight year old in the general population. Just look what they had to do in the current facility - empty out a wing so the boy can be in solitary. The only way you could put an elementary school child in one of these centers, is if you simply want to ignore what would happen to him there.

Here's some info from a March, 2008 AP article: Between 2004 and 2007there were 13,000 claims of abuse in juvenile centers around the country. In a broader study in 2004, the US Justice Dept uncovered 2,821 allegations of sexual abuse by juvenile corrections staffers. Some experts say the number of sex abuse incidents is likely even higher. Other abuse is physical, often sadistic. At least 5 have died since 2004 after being placed in restraints. At least 24 more died from suicide or natural causes. Sex among detainees is a major problem in some facilities, a claim backed by govt findings. AZ recently emerged from a lawsuit the Justice Dept filed after 3 youngsters commited suicide, and is making an attempt to meet recs made by the federal govt.

Anyone still think this might be appropriate?

No, he is too young to be housed in a juvenile center. IF he did this he should be sent to a treatment center. He must understand that what he did was wrong. So treating him like an adult is just nonsense. He shouldn't be treated like an older repeat offender either. They need to start changing the way they treat juveniles. Some states are already changing the way young offenders are treated. They are separating the young offenders by degrees. I am sure there is something out there about the new treatment facilities. I will have to google it and see what I can find. But dang, they always want me to work:smile:

[Justice_Dawg]

Maybe 3???

I stand corrected. :thumbup:

[Justice_Dawg]

I don't know...don't know where the "?" came from either. I am sorry, I certainly didn't mean to.

Tis' ok. :tonguewag:

[Justice_Dawg]

Honestly, I think he would have poisoned them

:ohmy::ohmy::ohmy:

Sick.


imo

[Justice_Dawg]

CPS to come under more scrutiny
Lawmaker says recent changes not enough

Paton said a key issue is that CPS sees itself as a social welfare agency - services are voluntary unless they are court-ordered - and workers don't want to be too closely associated with law enforcement.

http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/daily/fromquote/104276.php
---------------------

[muska]

From an azcentral.com article, June,2008: An Arizona juvenile court judge, Patricia Escher, said, "When you detain young people inappropriately, what you do is send them on a path of criminality." Lower risk kids are influenced by higher risk kids. Escher continued,"And then there's the power of the self-fulfilling prophecy. If you have a youth wondering, am I a good person or a bad person? and you put those people in detention, you're confirming this is who you are and this is who we expect you to be."

Dana Wolfe Naimark, of Children's Action Alliance/Arizona, said, What we're seeing is that supervised treatment for kids in their communities is really effective and a better use of tax dollars than is incarcerating kids."

Nice to know they're considering alternates to incarceration. I've seen juvenile facilities called Delinquency Universities where everyone learns everything bad. Maybe there are currently no alternatives for a lot of the older kids, but certainly there are for elementary school kids.

[Crispy]

I'm obviously not getting something here. Didn't they say that if the boy was found incompetent that they would start plans on a civil commitment? If they were going to do that then why is the prosecutor worried about him going off free and not getting the help he needs?

I admit I'm confused at times, so I might have got this wrong. Any help would be appreciated.:biggrin:

[Justice_Dawg]

Appropriate? It's all there is. Do you suggest we let them all out and give them a firm talking to, a pat on the head and a little out-patient therapy?

8 yr olds. Yes.

[muska]

No, he is too young to be housed in a juvenile center. IF he did this he should be sent to a treatment center. He must understand that what he did was wrong. So treating him like an adult is just nonsense. He shouldn't be treated like an older repeat offender either. They need to start changing the way they treat juveniles. Some states are already changing the way young offenders are treated. They are separating the young offenders by degrees. I am sure there is something out there about the new treatment facilities. I will have to google it and see what I can find. But dang, they always want me to work:smile:

Great post! There has to be a better way to deal with very young juvenile offenders.

[LindaNJ1216]

8 yr olds. Yes.

What about the 9 and 10 year olds?

[Justice_Dawg]

What about the 9 and 10 year olds?

Up to age 12.

IMO

[Justice_Dawg]

I thought the Duke boys were innocent, I thought Cynthia Sommers was innocent and Richard Jewell's case I never followed.

You're right. I do believe he's guilty, my mind won't be swayed on a message board and far fetched finger pointing at others.

What about Crowe???

Your mind should be swayed by LACK of evidence presented so far.

[Details]

Up to age 12.

IMOYep. A bit of a case by case basis - if we've got a long history of trouble, then that shows there's some type of established problem. But even there, therapy is what is needed. They'll be a different person in 6-10 years, and that person is who we need to cure. Find out what it is that is destroying them.

But I still don't see guilt in this case - the evidence doesn't fit the confession. The only piece of independent evidence comes almost a day later - which completely doesn't fit. Your husband is murdered, you know something about the murder, and you don't beat the door down of the police station to make them hear it? No way.

[Justice_Dawg]

Yep. A bit of a case by case basis - if we've got a long history of trouble, then that shows there's some type of established problem. But even there, therapy is what is needed. They'll be a different person in 6-10 years, and that person is who we need to cure. Find out what it is that is destroying them.

But I still don't see guilt in this case - the evidence doesn't fit the confession. The only piece of independent evidence comes almost a day later - which completely doesn't fit. Your husband is murdered, you know something about the murder, and you don't beat the door down of the police station to make them hear it? No way.

ITA!!

And we still don't know what this child went through. Was he beat with a belt, with pants down? Or smacked on the bottom with cloths on.? There is a big difference in my book.
I never hit my kids, so I don't approve of any kind of physical abuse.
I think physical abuse is learned.

[IAMME]

ITA!!

And we still don't know what this child went through. Was he beat with a belt, with pants down? Or smacked on the bottom with cloths on.? There is a big difference in my book.
I never hit my kids, so I don't approve of any kind of physical abuse.
I think physical abuse is learned.


For lots of good information on the effects of spanking go to www.nospank.com while I realize the name and purpose of the site is biased but there is tons of good information on the site and links to multiple studies. I do believe in corporal punishment BY PARENTS in certain cases, but not when it is used as the only means of discipline and only when used sparingly, 1000 spankings in any one childs life is abuse, I can guarentee that I have not given out even 100 spanking in the 13 years I have been a parent, and I have three children!

[Justice_Dawg]

For lots of good information on the effects of spanking go to www.nospank.com while I realize the name and purpose of the site is biased but there is tons of good information on the site and links to multiple studies. I do believe in corporal punishment BY PARENTS in certain cases, but not when it is used as the only means of discipline and only when used sparingly, 1000 spankings in any one childs life is abuse, I can guarentee that I have not given out even 100 spanking in the 13 years I have been a parent, and I have three children!

Do you know what corporal punishment is?
corporal punishment

physical chastisement of an offender. At one extreme it includes the death penalty (see capital punishment), but the term usually refers to punishments like flogging, mutilation, and branding. Until c.1800, in many parts of the world, most crimes were punished thus, or by such practices as confinement in the pillory or stocks, which combined physical chastisement with the humiliation of an individual possible in a relatively small, cohesive society. Flogging was especially prevalent, being used also to keep order among the institutionalized insane and in schools and the armed forces .

http://education.yahoo.com/reference/encyclopedia/entry?id=11770

Are you sure you believe in corporal punishment? :confused:

[LindaNJ1216]

For lots of good information on the effects of spanking go to www.nospank.com while I realize the name and purpose of the site is biased but there is tons of good information on the site and links to multiple studies. I do believe in corporal punishment BY PARENTS in certain cases, but not when it is used as the only means of discipline and only when used sparingly, 1000 spankings in any one childs life is abuse, I can guarentee that I have not given out even 100 spanking in the 13 years I have been a parent, and I have three children!

I can count on one hand the times I spanked my son..... all before the age of 4 and all were safety related.

[Justice_Dawg]

I can count on one hand the times I spanked my son..... all before the age of 4 and all were safety related.

Even safety related issues. I explained to them what could happen.
A smack on the hand of a 2 yr. old doesn't count in this.

I used the "count to 3" on my kids. They only ever got to 2 1/2. When my son was 21, he asked me what I would have done if I had ever reached "3".

I said, "I don't know" :tonguewag:

[IAMME]

Do you know what corporal punishment is?
corporal punishment

physical chastisement of an offender. At one extreme it includes the death penalty (see capital punishment), but the term usually refers to punishments like flogging, mutilation, and branding. Until c.1800, in many parts of the world, most crimes were punished thus, or by such practices as confinement in the pillory or stocks, which combined physical chastisement with the humiliation of an individual possible in a relatively small, cohesive society. Flogging was especially prevalent, being used also to keep order among the institutionalized insane and in schools and the armed forces .

http://education.yahoo.com/reference/encyclopedia/entry?id=11770

Are you sure you believe in corporal punishment? :confused:

Spanking is a form of corporal punishment, so technically yes, but not the other more extreme forms of it, I also DO believe in the death penalty, for certain cases when guilt has been established 100%. Slapping the hands of a 2 year old is also a form of corporal punishment, as well as forced exercise, which is used by our military today. You should look at the nospank site, I actually have distributed alot of their material to one of my local school districts.....(we had a slight disagreement on how they would treat my child):angry:

[IAMME]

OOPS!!

That link should be www.nospank.net

Sorry bout that:blushing:

[Justice_Dawg]

Spanking is a form of corporal punishment, so technically yes, but not the other more extreme forms of it, I also DO believe in the death penalty, for certain cases when guilt has been established 100%. Slapping the hands of a 2 year old is also a form of corporal punishment, as well as forced exercise, which is used by our military today. You should look at the nospank site, I actually have distributed alot of their material to one of my local school districts.....(we had a slight disagreement on how they would treat my child):angry:

Ohhhhhhhh, I thought corporal punishment was the definition I posted. See how much I know. :tongue:

[IAMME]

Ohhhhhhhh, I thought corporal punishment was the definition I posted. See how much I know. :tongue:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporal_punishment

You are correct too! Is any form of physical punishment that causes pain and/or fear. So standing in the corner, forced exercise, paddling, spanking, swatting hands, forced retention of bodily waste, flogging, stoning, ect ect ect......This is actually something I have researched quite a bit in a failed effort to have the aforementioned school district to change its policy, my children now attend another school, the previous one just proved to be an unsafe place for children.

[muska]

You know that is such BS, dropping the charges so they can file on him as an adult later...an adult didn't commit the crime! They should have to try him as the age he was when he committed the crime, not wait 10 years and then he can get life. What a messed up system we have...lets just wait until he understands what's going on, who cares that he was a baby when this happened, now we can charge him as an adult in an adult court for a crime he committed when he didn't know the difference. We need some new laws.

Oh yeah and I still don't think he did it, I was using that as an example.

We definitely need some new laws and new protections for young children. Prosecutors like this waiting until a kid is older....very unfair.

[muska]

I'm obviously not getting something here. Didn't they say that if the boy was found incompetent that they would start plans on a civil commitment? If they were going to do that then why is the prosecutor worried about him going off free and not getting the help he needs?

I admit I'm confused at times, so I might have got this wrong. Any help would be appreciated.:biggrin:

I think the civil commitment can only last for 8 months and if the child isn't deemed competent at the end of that time, the case is dismissed. This is like this for reason; someone must have concluded that if a child isn't competent in that time, he's too young to understand what he's done and should not be tried in a court of law.

I'm not positive about this. Does anyone know if I'm right about what the civil commitment involves?

[Justice_Dawg]

The case is essentially in a holding pattern until at least Dec. 17, when a state expert is scheduled to evaluate the boy. An expert for the defense already has completed a mental health and competency evaluation.

If the boy were found to be incompetent and could not be restored to competency within 240 days, prosecutors said the judge would have to dismiss the case with prejudice, meaning the charges could not be refiled, and initiate civil commitment proceedings. Prosecutors said a civil commitment is unlikely.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iG_nB7rdOr3TiaL5ph3YDR5qNNTAD94UPPLO0
----------------------
Want me to splain? LOL

The judge ruled NOT (to go there) and dismiss both charges, it means that IF the boy is found incompetent at this point in time AND 240 days after all charges will be dismissed WITH prejudice. He Will NEVER be charged.

That is why these prosecutors are trying to get rid of the charges. So they can refile them when the child is older. The Judge isn't going for it. You have to ask yourself "Why?"

The child has a right to a speedy trial. 45 days if I remember correctly.

These prosecutors are not ready and WON'T be ready by the deadline.

IMO- If you have a cut and dry case, 45 days is plenty to take it to trial.

Also from that link:
Roca said Monday that attorneys can continue interviewing people in the case.

IMO- Ongoing investigation.

I will step down now. :biggrin:

[Justice_Dawg]

I think the civil commitment can only last for 8 months and if the child isn't deemed competent at the end of that time, the case is dismissed. This is like this for reason; someone must have concluded that if a child isn't competent in that time, he's too young to understand what he's done and should not be tried in a court of law.

I'm not positive about this. Does anyone know if I'm right about what the civil commitment involves?

civil commitment
American psychiatrists appear to favor relatively limited grounds for involuntarily committing patients—"danger to self," "danger to others," or "grave disability" head the list.

http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/42/16/12-a

[muska]

Now while the case is in this "holding pattern" the days won't count toward the 45 days. How often can they do this? Of the juvenile cases I've followed, it seems like they draw them out forever.

I just saw a news report video where the reporter asked Brewer how the boy was doing and Brewer replied, "not good." This case may finally get some people to realize that juvenile justice for these preteen kids doesn't work, but I'm afraid it could be too late for this kid. How long can an 8 year old be alone in isolation without permanent damage being done? Maybe I'm a pessimist but I think it's already getting too long.

[Details]

...
I just saw a news report video where the reporter asked Brewer how the boy was doing and Brewer replied, "not good." This case may finally get some people to realize that juvenile justice for these preteen kids doesn't work, but I'm afraid it could be too late for this kid. How long can an 8 year old be alone in isolation without permanent damage being done? Maybe I'm a pessimist but I think it's already getting too long.I'm not sure - it's not long an 8 year old can be in that environment without permanent damage - but it's an even shorter time, when that 8 year old has just lost his father! Now is when he most needs to have support, someone to talk to who isn't trying to get him to confess or change his story, someone for when he wakes up with a nightmare. It's long past - he needed that support in his first few days. The judge never should have confined him, put him in any foster care, or any other establishment that is set up to care for kids.

[Justice_Dawg]

Now while the case is in this "holding pattern" the days won't count toward the 45 days. How often can they do this? Of the juvenile cases I've followed, it seems like they draw them out forever.

I just saw a news report video where the reporter asked Brewer how the boy was doing and Brewer replied, "not good." This case may finally get some people to realize that juvenile justice for these preteen kids doesn't work, but I'm afraid it could be too late for this kid. How long can an 8 year old be alone in isolation without permanent damage being done? Maybe I'm a pessimist but I think it's already getting too long.


Where did you see the news report?

[Justice_Dawg]

I'm not sure - it's not long an 8 year old can be in that environment without permanent damage - but it's an even shorter time, when that 8 year old has just lost his father! Now is when he most needs to have support, someone to talk to who isn't trying to get him to confess or change his story, someone for when he wakes up with a nightmare. It's long past - he needed that support in his first few days. The judge never should have confined him, put him in any foster care, or any other establishment that is set up to care for kids.

ITA! He needs to be out, and he needs to be out NOW!

[muska]

Where did you see the news report?


I am really sorry - I've been looking for it for you and can't find. It was at one of the television station websites; they had a short report from yesterday and one from today. The only other thing that it said that I had not heard before was that because the case is complicated, a court of appeals may have to decide how the case will proceed....not sure what that means but that's what it said.

I'll look again tomorrow -

[muska]

I looked again and found it.
www.kpho.com/index.html

Search for Romero and then sort by date. The top two videos are the ones I watched.

[Justice_Dawg]

I am really sorry - I've been looking for it for you and can't find. It was at one of the television station websites; they had a short report from yesterday and one from today. The only other thing that it said that I had not heard before was that because the case is complicated, a court of appeals may have to decide how the case will proceed....not sure what that means but that's what it said.

I'll look again tomorrow -
I found one update.

http://www.abc15.com/mediacenter/local.aspx

On the left, go to- UPDATE: Judge won't discuss dropping murder count in St. Johns case

They say the boy may be released by Christmas!

[Justice_Dawg]

I am really sorry - I've been looking for it for you and can't find. It was at one of the television station websites; they had a short report from yesterday and one from today. The only other thing that it said that I had not heard before was that because the case is complicated, a court of appeals may have to decide how the case will proceed....not sure what that means but that's what it said.

I'll look again tomorrow -

Team work! :thumbsup:

[Dallasnc]

The case is essentially in a holding pattern until at least Dec. 17, when a state expert is scheduled to evaluate the boy. An expert for the defense already has completed a mental health and competency evaluation.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iG_nB7rdOr3TiaL5ph3YDR5qNNTAD94UPPLO0
----------------------

IMO, if the state want this to move forward, then they should arrange for their expert to evaluate the child quicker. Why complain when all they have to do is make arrangements to have him evaluated quicker. I hope the judge questioned why he couldn't be evaluated before Dec 17.

Someone needs to stand up for this childs rights!

[Justice_Dawg]

I found one update.

http://www.abc15.com/mediacenter/local.aspx

On the left, go to- UPDATE: Judge won't discuss dropping murder count in St. Johns case

They say the boy may be released by Christmas!

I bet, at the hearing on the 22nd. The boy will be deemed incompetent (worse now since he's been locked up like an animal) and be released. IMO-That's why they are saying he could be released by Christmas.

[Justice_Dawg]

IMO, if the state want this to move forward, then they should arrange for their expert to evaluate the child quicker. Why complain when all they have to do is make arrangements to have him evaluated quicker. I hope the judge questioned why he couldn't be evaluated before Dec 17.

Someone needs to stand up for this childs rights!
I heard the judge went off on Prosecutors (in chambers) for not having any discovery.:thumbsup:

[Kara]

Now while the case is in this "holding pattern" the days won't count toward the 45 days. How often can they do this? Of the juvenile cases I've followed, it seems like they draw them out forever.

<snipped>Now that is a very interesting question. How can they legally not count the days while the child is incarcerated??

[LindaNJ1216]

Even safety related issues. I explained to them what could happen.
A smack on the hand of a 2 yr. old doesn't count in this.

I used the "count to 3" on my kids. They only ever got to 2 1/2. When my son was 21, he asked me what I would have done if I had ever reached "3".

I said, "I don't know" :tonguewag:

I was counting a single swat or two to a diapered butt for safety reasons.

[muska]

Now that is a very interesting question. How can they legally not count the days while the child is incarcerated??

I understand the necessity. How can the case go forward when the evaluations aren't complete and there's no determination of competency? I think the prosecutor is delaying the case, hoping to gain an advantage for himself. The boy's attorney shouldn't have to decide on a plea deal until all the evidence is in, until he's sure he knows what happened. And the threat of moving this case to adult court, that shouldn't even be discussed.

[muska]

I found one update.

http://www.abc15.com/mediacenter/local.aspx

On the left, go to- UPDATE: Judge won't discuss dropping murder count in St. Johns case

They say the boy may be released by Christmas!

That will be good news if it happens. The judge also "raised concerns regarding the evidence in the case." I wonder if that's just regarding the delayed forensics evidence or if it's a broader concern.

I sure hope they can get him some intensive therapy/counseling soon. It's not to anyone's advantage to leave this boy untreated.

[muska]

45 days does seem short for this kind of case.

[PensiveOne]

New docs up...I haven't read them yet!
http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/

[PensiveOne]

It looks like they are permitting the therapist to visit the boy. That is good news.:thumbsup:

[LindaNJ1216]

Sure...but didn't the judge rule that anything the boy tells her can be used in court and is fair game?
:glare:

yep, that's the way I understood it

[PensiveOne]

Since there has been a lot of discussion about whether the boy was read his rights or could even understand them, I propose a kiddie version of the Miranda warnings:

You are in big trouble, Mister (or Missie.) If you don't want to get into more trouble-keep your mouth shut! If you don't keep your mouth shut it will probably get you into more trouble than you are already in. You can have a grown up called a lawyer (no...not a LIAR, a LAWYER) here with you. They wear a suit and tie and use really big words and cost a LOT of money, which you probably don't have. How much money do you have in your piggy bank? If it is less than like a million dollars, chances are you can't afford one. If you want, we will get one for you free, but they will suck really bad and won't help you, so you are better off keeping your mouth shut in the meantime. Do you have any idea what I just said? If you do, give me a thumbs up, if not, you may begin to cry for your Mommy right now....
:crying:

That's good. I would be surprised if they have not told him to not talk about it unless they tell him it is okay...but I of course have no way of knowing that. It must be very tough on him. JMO

[PensiveOne]

Sure...but didn't the judge rule that anything the boy tells her can be used in court and is fair game?
:glare:

Unfortunately, sometimes you have to take the good with the bad.:sad:

[JD1974]

Since there has been a lot of discussion about whether the boy was read his rights or could even understand them, I propose a kiddie version of the Miranda warnings:

You are in big trouble, Mister (or Missie.) If you don't want to get into more trouble-keep your mouth shut! If you don't keep your mouth shut it will probably get you into more trouble than you are already in. You can have a grown up called a lawyer (no...not a LIAR, a LAWYER) here with you. They wear a suit and tie and use really big words and cost a LOT of money, which you probably don't have. How much money do you have in your piggy bank? If it is less than like a million dollars, chances are you can't afford one. If you want, we will get one for you free, but they will suck really bad and won't help you, so you are better off keeping your mouth shut in the meantime. Do you have any idea what I just said? If you do, give me a thumbs up, if not, you may begin to cry for your Mommy right now....
:crying:



OMG that was funny, but you know what, that is probably how you would have to explain it to a kid that age! Except maybe the million dollars, they don't even know what that is lol maybe go with at least 500.00!!

[Justice_Dawg]

It looks like they are permitting the therapist to visit the boy. That is good news.:thumbsup:

Did you see where the judge said to Carlyon:
"That was a hanging curveball. Shame on you for swinging at it"
Carlyon: This is an ONGOING investigation from both sides.

Page 10 From line 6 - 15

:lol::lol:

[Justice_Dawg]

I don't get it.:huh:

Wood answered No

[lurkinghere2]

Since there has been a lot of discussion about whether the boy was read his rights or could even understand them, I propose a kiddie version of the Miranda warnings:

You are in big trouble, Mister (or Missie.) If you don't want to get into more trouble-keep your mouth shut! If you don't keep your mouth shut it will probably get you into more trouble than you are already in. You can have a grown up called a lawyer (no...not a LIAR, a LAWYER) here with you. They wear a suit and tie and use really big words and cost a LOT of money, which you probably don't have. How much money do you have in your piggy bank? If it is less than like a million dollars, chances are you can't afford one. If you want, we will get one for you free, but they will suck really bad and won't help you, so you are better off keeping your mouth shut in the meantime. Do you have any idea what I just said? If you do, give me a thumbs up, if not, you may begin to cry for your Mommy right now....
:crying:

Now that was worth logging in to applaud or, only there isn't an applauding yellow circle thingy (adult speak = icon).:huh:

[GentleBreeze]

Hmmm, Wood stressed that they have never said the boy was abused and that was the media saying that.

The Judge has a sense of humor and that is good.

When Wood was saying he didn't want anyone talking to him when they got the physical evidence from him the Judge said "sort of hard not to talk to someone about putting their palms down on the glass" :laugh: (paraphrasing)

So the defense is the one that has even been holding that up. How can they even compare any results they get it in if after a month they don't even have the fingerprints,palm prints,mouth swab, hair sample, even done yet?

imoo

[Justice_Dawg]

Hmmm, Wood stressed that they have never said the boy was abused and that was the media saying that.

The Judge has a sense of humor and that is good.

When Wood was saying he didn't want anyone talking to him when they got the physical evidence from him the Judge said "sort of hard not to talk to someone about putting their palms down on the glass" :laugh: (paraphrasing)

So the defense is the one that has even been holding that up. How can they even compare any results they get it in if after a month they don't even have the fingerprints,palm prints,mouth swab, hair sample, even done yet?

imoo
There goes your 1000 swats theory. :tonguewag:

The defense didn't hold up anything.

[GentleBreeze]

There goes your 1000 swats theory. :tonguewag:

The defense didn't hold up anything.

Wasn't my theory. I did say they were a made story and they may still be.

They hadn't even picked their own defense psychiatrist yet had they so they too have to evaluate the boy? Did the Court also assign another one. They usually will have three. State, Defense and Court Appointed.

One thing I picked up on though. This attorney is afraid of anyone talking to this boy, which means imo he knows he is apt to open his mouth and may say things that incriminates him.

imoo

[bookie]

Hmmm, Wood stressed that they have never said the boy was abused and that was the media saying that.

The Judge has a sense of humor and that is good.

When Wood was saying he didn't want anyone talking to him when they got the physical evidence from him the Judge said "sort of hard not to talk to someone about putting their palms down on the glass" :laugh: (paraphrasing)

So the defense is the one that has even been holding that up. How can they even compare any results they get it in if after a month they don't even have the fingerprints,palm prints,mouth swab, hair sample, even done yet?

imoo



I thought it was very obvious Wood was saying he didn't want anyone talking to the boy about the case during the fingerprinting.

[bookie]

*snipped*

One thing I picked up on though. This attorney is afraid of anyone talking to this boy, which means imo he knows he is apt to open his mouth and may say things that incriminates him.

imoo


Or he's worried more "trusted adults" will coerce his client into saying something that isn't true which is moo.

[Justice_Dawg]

Or he's worried more "trusted adults" will coerce his client into saying something that isn't true which is moo.

We know this boy is locked up with no one around him. He may talk, just to talk when he is around people, and yes, someone might make something big out of nothing.

[bookie]

Hmmm, Wood stressed that they have never said the boy was abused and that was the media saying that.

The Judge has a sense of humor and that is good.

When Wood was saying he didn't want anyone talking to him when they got the physical evidence from him the Judge said "sort of hard not to talk to someone about putting their palms down on the glass" :laugh: (paraphrasing)

So the defense is the one that has even been holding that up. How can they even compare any results they get it in if after a month they don't even have the fingerprints,palm prints,mouth swab, hair sample, even done yet?

imoo


It's too late to edit my other quote to you but where are you getting a month from? That hearing was held on the 19th of November. Thats 2 weeks, not a month later.

[GentleBreeze]

Or he's worried more "trusted adults" will coerce his client into saying something that isn't true which is moo.

No, what he is worried about is he knows this boy doesn't even have to be asked to volunteer information.

He better be standing right there beside him the entire time. However he will not be able to go inside with him when the Pediatrician sees the boy. I bet he will be nervous as a cat during that time. lol

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

It's too late to edit my other quote to you but where are you getting a month from? That hearing was held on the 19th of November. Thats 2 weeks, not a month later.

Whats two weeks, we are now into over a month since the probable cause hearing held on Nov. 10th.

No one seems to be in a real hurry from either side imo.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Or that if he is covering for someone else out of fear or love, he might add more to his story.

The defense attorney is protecting his client, who has every right to be protected. Seems to me like you would simply like the prosecution side to just move forward unquestioned and try to get whatever they can out of the kid. Adults have more rights than that!

I still can't get over the fact that you don't seem to care this child is 8 years old. (Oh...sorry...almost 9 now...big diference....my bad...)

IMO

No I thought it was comical all what he was wanting and even Judge Roca thought it was too and a little extreme. Like everywhere he has to go people have to talk in sign language to him rather than utter a word.:biggrin:

imoo

[bookie]

Whats two weeks, we are now into over a month since the probable cause hearing held on Nov. 10th.

No one seems to be in a real hurry from either side imo.

imoo



The fingerprint/dna/samples issue was dealt with on Nov 19th. That was 2 weeks after the boy was charged. We don't know that he hasn't been fingerprinted since then do we?

[IAMME]

All information regarding his movements are to be sealed including future furloughs.......Is that the norm? Or have they finally decided that he IS in danger? Sounds like the juvenile probation guy, had something to say about that, makes me wonder if they haven't been receiving death threats or something....

[bookie]

No, what he is worried about is he knows this boy doesn't even have to be asked to volunteer information.

He better be standing right there beside him the entire time. However he will not be able to go inside with him when the Pediatrician sees the boy. I bet he will be nervous as a cat during that time. lol

imoo




How in the world can you claim to know what he's worried about??? And yes he will be able to be in the room when the pediatrician examines the boy. Page 18 lines 18, 19 and 20. Wood tells the judge hehas no problem going to the exam to make sure it doesn't go outside the bounds. The judge replied with ok.

[muska]

The judge sure sounds disgusted with the media.....reporting has been in very poor taste.

[PensiveOne]

Did you see where the judge said to Carlyon:
"That was a hanging curveball. Shame on you for swinging at it"
Carlyon: This is an ONGOING investigation from both sides.

Page 10 From line 6 - 15

:lol::lol:

Yeah, that was great. He also said that the counselor for the boy would be protected under the privelages. Or did I read that wrong?

[bookie]

The judge sure sounds disgusted with the media.....reporting has been in very poor taste.



He sure did.

[Justice_Dawg]

All information regarding his movements are to be sealed including future furloughs.......Is that the norm? Or have they finally decided that he IS in danger? Sounds like the juvenile probation guy, had something to say about that, makes me wonder if they haven't been receiving death threats or something....
What juvenile probation guy?:confused: Do you have his name?

Seems the boy is in danger. If they are all saying it is an ongoing investigation, and prosecutors are willing to release him, something is up.

When they talk about the issue of full release from detention, Carlyon said both victims familys said no. (IMO-Tonya and Tiffany)

For the Thanksgiving furlough release one victims family said no, (most likely Tonya) the other they couldn't get a hold of. (most likely Tiffany)

[bookie]

What juvenile probation guy?:confused: Do you have his name?

Seems the boy is in danger. If they are all saying it is an ongoing investigation, and prosecutors are willing to release him, something is up.

When they talk about the issue of full release from detention, Carlyon said both victims familys said no. (IMO-Tonya and Tiffany)

For the Thanksgiving furlough release one victims family said no, (most likely Tonya) the other they couldn't get a hold of. (most likely Tiffany)


I think IAM is talking about the GAL.

[Justice_Dawg]

I think IAM is talking about the GAL.

Ohhh, ok

Hey IAM, There is a big difference there!! LOL

[GentleBreeze]

The fingerprint/dna/samples issue was dealt with on Nov 19th. That was 2 weeks after the boy was charged. We don't know that he hasn't been fingerprinted since then do we?

In the hearing motion that was just filed the defense attorney is still arguing about it.

So, no, it wasn't done.

imo

[bookie]

In the hearing motion that was just filed the defense attorney is still arguing about it.

So, no, it wasn't done.

imo



If you are talking about the link we have all been reading today it's from November 19th, almost a month ago. An order was signed that day by the judge ordering the prints and samples be taken. I haven't seen anything saying they weren't.

[GentleBreeze]

How in the world can you claim to know what he's worried about??? And yes he will be able to be in the room when the pediatrician examines the boy. Page 18 lines 18, 19 and 20. Wood tells the judge hehas no problem going to the exam to make sure it doesn't go outside the bounds. The judge replied with ok.

I will go back and read it again but it said he can go in the room with the Dr. and the boy when they are checking him? Good grief is all these attorneys just going to line up in a small room and gawk at the child as he is being looked at?

I know he can go to the office and be there and even speak with the Dr. but I didn't know they allowed attorneys in the same room during a physical examination.

imoo

[bookie]

I will go back and read it again but it said he can go in the room with the Dr. and the boy when they are checking him? Good grief is all these attorneys just going to line up in a small room and gawk at the child as he is being looked at?

I know he can go to the office and be there and even speak with the Dr. but I didn't know they allowed attorneys in the same room during a physical examination.

imoo



A curtain or partition can be put in place to ensure no one sees the boy but can also hear what is said. No one has to "gawk" at the boy.

[muska]

I will go back and read it again but it said he can go in the room with the Dr. and the boy when they are checking him? Good grief is all these attorneys just going to line up in a small room and gawk at the child as he is being looked at?

I know he can go to the office and be there and even speak with the Dr. but I didn't know they allowed attorneys in the same room during a physical examination.

imoo
Maybe the mother can go with him. If not, what's wrong with one defense attorney being there? I'm sure the child would prefer his mother but someone he knows a little is better than no one at all. Most eight year olds would want a "friend" along while he's with a doctor anyway.

[Justice_Dawg]

I will go back and read it again but it said he can go in the room with the Dr. and the boy when they are checking him? Good grief is all these attorneys just going to line up in a small room and gawk at the child as he is being looked at?

I know he can go to the office and be there and even speak with the Dr. but I didn't know they allowed attorneys in the same room during a physical examination.

imoo

I'll save you the time.

http://www.abc15.com/mediacenter/local.aspx?videoid=17704@knxv.dayport.com&navCatId=3

at 8:44
"He went to the Dr's today."
It was the day the Motion to dismiss count 1 was filed. Which was NOV 21st.

So 2 days later.

[GentleBreeze]

I'll save you the time.

http://www.abc15.com/mediacenter/local.aspx?videoid=17704@knxv.dayport.com&navCatId=3

at 8:44
"He went to the Dr's today."
It was the day the Motion to dismiss count 1 was filed. Which was NOV 21st.

So 2 days later.

Thank you. I couldn't really understand if they had even set up a time, place or a doctor in the 19th pre adjudication hearing or were just still talking about how it was to be done and by whom.

imo

[Justice_Dawg]

Thank you. I couldn't really understand if they had even set up a time, place or a doctor in the 19th pre adjudication hearing or were just still talking about how it was to be done and by whom.

imo
You are welcome.

Sometimes we agree on a trial, sometimes we don't. I don't hold a grudge forever. :tonguewag:

[IAMME]

What juvenile probation guy?:confused: Do you have his name?

Seems the boy is in danger. If they are all saying it is an ongoing investigation, and prosecutors are willing to release him, something is up.

When they talk about the issue of full release from detention, Carlyon said both victims familys said no. (IMO-Tonya and Tiffany)

For the Thanksgiving furlough release one victims family said no, (most likely Tonya) the other they couldn't get a hold of. (most likely Tiffany)

I was looking at the minute entry of status hearing when it reconvenes in chambers.....And it was Mr. Lassen, I read the "who was present" part at the top wrong, I had to go to the store, so was hurrying....still sounds like they believe he is in danger....

[Justice_Dawg]

I was looking at the minute entry of status hearing when it reconvenes in chambers.....And it was Mr. Lassen, I read the "who was present" part at the top wrong, I had to go to the store, so was hurrying....still sounds like they believe he is in danger....

Mr. Lassen said he fears more for the boy than the community should fear the boy.

That was a statement to the judge. :thumbup:

[PensiveOne]

Here is a link to a new article. At the end his lawyer talks about foregoing some of the boy's 5th amendment rights to help him heal internally...or something like that. I agree with him. JMO

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/12/10/20081210child-charged1210-ON.html

[GentleBreeze]

You are welcome.

Sometimes we agree on a trial, sometimes we don't. I don't hold a grudge forever. :tonguewag:

:thumbsup:Whew, that is great to know. I don't hold grudges against anyone and never have. :smile:

But thanks again for clarifying about the doctor. I had not seen that video of the attorney speaking before.

imoo

[Justice_Dawg]

Here is a link to a new article. At the end his lawyer talks about foregoing some of the boy's 5th amendment rights to help him heal internally...or something like that. I agree with him. JMO

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/12/10/20081210child-charged1210-ON.html

THANKS FOR THE LINK!

I am getting a better feeling about things now for some reason.
It does seem to me that the Defense Team, Prosecutors and Judge all have this boys best interest as top priority.

Anyone else getting that feeling?

[muska]

THANKS FOR THE LINK!

I am getting a better feeling about things now for some reason.
It does seem to me that the Defense Team, Prosecutors and Judge all have this boys best interest as top priority.

Anyone else getting that feeling?

I'm afraid I don't feel that way....I wish I did! Why do you?

[Justice_Dawg]

I'm afraid I don't feel that way....I wish I did! Why do you?

The prosecutors wanted to release him from detention. The Victims familys said NO. Prosecutors are usually stuck at that point.

Like with the Brooke Wilberger case. Prosecutors want to go for the DP for Courtney, Brookes family said NO due to their religion. Prosecutors almost always ask the victims family.

I think this will all end Dec. 22nd. anyway. "Big John" kind of gave that away yesterday. :wink:

[IAMME]

On one hand, we have a little 8 year old boy 4 feet tall and weighing about 55 lbs.

We have one victim who is what appears to be a loving and involved father (although completely irresponsibile to leave the child home with guns and ammo lying around.)

We have another victim who is having an affair, living two lives, out every night drinking at bars and parties, driving around with a bullet hole in his truck and has a history of a drug conviction and has actually served time for this offense. He is known for having long standing problems with people from work that also entail bad blood and cultural issues and is known for getting into barroom brawls with Mexican nationals.

Based on the coerced confession of a little boy who never goes any farther than saying, "maybe" "I think" and "I might have" and a wife who says she heard the boy say something over the phone-you're darn skippy I have more fear for the child than for society.

IMO

I would also have to add that the father was irresponsible for allowing the second victim to have such close contact with his 8 year old child!!

Does Arizona have "morals" codes in their custody orders? In mine (Arkansas) I would be in contempt for allowing Mr. Romans to live in my house, based on his conduct and prior convictions.......I don't believe that is something that is in EVERY Arkansas custody order, but I do know some states include certain "morals clauses" in every case as a matter of law.....

IMO

[Justice_Dawg]

I would also have to add that the father was irresponsible for allowing the second victim to have such close contact with his 8 year old child!!

Does Arizona have "morals" codes in their custody orders? In mine (Arkansas) I would be in contempt for allowing Mr. Romans to live in my house, based on his conduct and prior convictions.......I don't believe that is something that is in EVERY Arkansas custody order, but I do know some states include certain "morals clauses" in every case as a matter of law.....

IMO

I don't believe anyone could live in that filth! Get a cleaning lady!
:chicken:

[bkwits]

No, what he is worried about is he knows this boy doesn't even have to be asked to volunteer information.

He better be standing right there beside him the entire time. However he will not be able to go inside with him when the Pediatrician sees the boy. I bet he will be nervous as a cat during that time. lol

imoo

Pardon me, I don't get the lol. :confused:

[Crispy]

The way I read it, he can be in with the dr. at the time of the exam. I'm really glad that they OK'd someone to come in and talk with the boy. I think he needs it and I do believe the judge is worried about his well being.

They confused me with the gag order talk. A lot of back and forth about it. Although today was not the day for me to try and understand stuff. I have messed things up all day!! I tried to take my son to school an hour early. My food boiled over on the stove and I slammed my foot in the car door. Bad day all around.:cursing:

[Justice_Dawg]

The way I read it, he can be in with the dr. at the time of the exam. I'm really glad that they OK'd someone to come in and talk with the boy. I think he needs it and I do believe the judge is worried about his well being.

They confused me with the gag order talk. A lot of back and forth about it. Although today was not the day for me to try and understand stuff. I have messed things up all day!! I tried to take my son to school an hour early. My food boiled over on the stove and I slammed my foot in the car door. Bad day all around.:cursing:
Well, actually, you name 3 things that went wrong today. That means it's over with for the day. :tongue:

[LindaNJ1216]

THANKS FOR THE LINK!

I am getting a better feeling about things now for some reason.
It does seem to me that the Defense Team, Prosecutors and Judge all have this boys best interest as top priority.

Anyone else getting that feeling?

Yes! I think everyone understands he did this and is in desperate need of therapy and all the help he can get. As it should be...he's 8

I would hope this case illustrates the need to amend AZ law about charging 8 yr olds ....they need to have a decent plan in place if they do!

[LindaNJ1216]

I don't believe anyone could live in that filth! Get a cleaning lady!
:chicken:


The why shoot Tim has been gnawing at me...then I thought perhaps all the arguing between dad and his bride probably was about the 2 men being slobs. If you look, the house IS clean....there's just stuff tossed everywhere. Like no one in the house can pick up after themselves....I know it would drive me CRAZY!

Perhaps the boy wanted the fighting to end?

[Crispy]

Well, actually, you name 3 things that went wrong today. That means it's over with for the day. :tongue:


Believe me there was way more than that! LOL I'm hoping that tomorrow is better.

Linda I do agree with you on most of your post. He does need therapy and they really do need to sit down and work out the laws for a defendant this age. jmo

[Details]

The judge sure sounds disgusted with the media.....reporting has been in very poor taste.Yeah, no wonder! Almost all of it - sympathetic to the boy or not - has been treating this as a proved case of the boy murdering two adults - and we're nowhere near knowing that. No ballistics, no fingerprints, no witnesses, no nothing.

[LindaNJ1216]

The kid was injured at some point in his past and helecoptered ? I am reading this right? pg 24

[muska]

The kid was injured at some point in his past and helecoptered ? I am reading this right? pg 24

That might be because he was born premature. I'm sure there wouldn't be an intensive care neonatal unit in St Johns.

[muska]

OK-I have finally gotten the chance to rewatch the interview with the boy all the way through one more time and although I am still not convinced he did it, I am thinking there might be a slight possibility he did, and that is based upon some other things....

To see that his attorney is willing to give up on the 5th amendment protections for the boy, I think it is clear to all that this kid is truly suffering inside right now. He is holding something in that he is terribly afriad to tell anyone. If he did do this, his demeanor shows me not the demeanor of a heartless soul, but one of a frightened child who is desperate to try to mask his true feelings. One who talks so matter-of-factly about the situation around him. I've done it myself. It is a natural mechanism that comes into play to protect oneself against the evil thoughts inside of you. It happened to me at my parents' and brother's funerals. People kind of thought it was wierd how jovial I was, chatting with people, cracking jokes, talking about things so matter-of-factly. The truth was that I was in severe pain, but my mind made me go into autopilot and as long as I kept on moving about, I wouldn't crash.

Whether he did it or not, that child is tormented. He is either tormented by what he saw or what he did-but I can tell you for absolute sure that what he told those officers was not the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

What concerns me most in this situation is Tim. I am very troubled about him in more ways than one. Now, just because someone is a cheat, does not necessarily make them any more so, but you have a lot going on with this man. You have someone who has been living a "double life." In order to successfully do that, in my opinion, one must be able to be an incredible liar and have a truly messed up conscience. He is a married man on the weekends, yet has this other life during the week where he is proposing to another woman who is truly in love with him.

This man has a prior arrest, conviction and has served time. He drives around with a bullet hole in his truck. He has problems at work and has gets into bar room brawls.

He is living in a room across the hall from an 8 year old boy that is not his relative.

If this man can convince two women that he is such a great guy, what else is he able to hide and convince people of? I am beginning to get a picture of something that is truly scaring me and might just answer a lot of questions. I think that it is not too far of a reach that this man has hurt this boy in some way.

This boy is living in a house with his father and step mother trying to start a new marriage. There are problems within the marriage and with the natural mother. There is a guy living in the house that is really not the "wonderful guy" everyone has been talking about. What is going on in that little kid's head that would either make him commit this act or cover for someone else out of love or fear or admit to something that he did not do out of guilt or fear.

This boy needs to talk to someone and fast. I am convinced that he has not told anyone what truly happened in that house because he does not feel he has anyone on his side. He can't talk to mom because she can testify against him. He can't talk to step mom because she hates him. The rest of his family, including his grandparents have abandoned him and want him locked up.

The two police officers (one was a neighbor) continually told him in that interview over and over, "you can trust me" "we're on your side" "we're here to help you" etc...and then throw him in jail.

I think this child is in severe danger, either from within or without, and desperately needs someone he can trust to speak with openly, or he will implode.

I do not believe this child is evil. I refuse to believe this. That quiver in his voice at the end of the interview sold me on that. He was scared to death and his brave facade came down. Whether his words were true or not, the little boy at the end of the interview showed us just a glimpse of the scared little boy inside that desperately needs some help.

IMO

The thing that makes me feel that everyone is not looking out for his best interests is the refusal of the judge to let the counselor talk with the boy off the record. How is he going to feel when she too betrays him and testifies against him in court?

[IAMME]

The kid was injured at some point in his past and helecoptered ? I am reading this right? pg 24


I caught that too, but it doesnt say injured, just air evac'd to Phoenix. We know he was premature, so that very well may be why......small town hospitals do not have NICUs. But I would like to know more about it regardless....

[bkwits]

Yes! I think everyone understands he did this and is in desperate need of therapy and all the help he can get. As it should be...he's 8

I would hope this case illustrates the need to amend AZ law about charging 8 yr olds ....they need to have a decent plan in place if they do!

I don't believe that EVERYONE understands he did this.
I would like to see some evidence and so would his lawyers. IMP

[bkwits]

The why shoot Tim has been gnawing at me...then I thought perhaps all the arguing between dad and his bride probably was about the 2 men being slobs. If you look, the house IS clean....there's just stuff tossed everywhere. Like no one in the house can pick up after themselves....I know it would drive me CRAZY!

Perhaps the boy wanted the fighting to end?

Quite a s-t-r-e-t-c-h there, IMO. :unsure:

[Kara]

Yeah, that was great. He also said that the counselor for the boy would be protected under the privelages. Or did I read that wrong?I'm way behind but that is the imression I got from the minute entry from the status hearing.

It says...

The court hears discussion on a therapist for the juvenile and the exemption of that person from the operation of criminal law.

I'm guessing that means the therapist cannot be subpoenaed to provide testimony in a criminal action.

[LindaNJ1216]

That might be because he was born premature. I'm sure there wouldn't be an intensive care neonatal unit in St Johns.

ah! good point!

Was kinda hoping there was some sort of head injury that could explain everything

[LindaNJ1216]

Quite a s-t-r-e-t-c-h there, IMO. :unsure:

agreed...just liked it better than Tim was simply collateral damage.

[LindaNJ1216]

I'm way behind but that is the imression I got from the minute entry from the status hearing.

It says...



I'm guessing that means the therapist cannot be subpoenaed to provide testimony in a criminal action.

I understood neither side would be informed of anything unless the boy gave his permission.

[Kara]

I understood neither side would be informed of anything unless the boy gave his permission.
Earlier today discussion made it sound like any talk with the therapist could be used. I'm still wading through the documents, but the first one (the short one) is where I found the quote I posted.

[tif]

This part of the latest azcentral.com article makes it sound like the therapist would have to testify:

Roca also granted a defense motion to appoint a therapist for the boy. The judge raised concerns about the defense request, which would have kept the therapist from having to testify about her exchanges with the boy. He ordered it amended to remove that provision.

"I am concerned that he needs somebody to talk to, and if I have the potential to forgo some of my concerns regarding his Fifth Amendment rights, I think I may need to do that on the grounds of his internal well-being," Brewer said.

I know that attorneys can hire accountants to do work for a criminal defendant and the accountant would not be required to testify because the accountant's work is covered under the attorney work product privilege. Does anybody know if there is something similar for therapists?

[Details]

If the defense attorney thought they boy did it - seems like he'd be more scared of the therapist being allowed to talk. Since he's game for a therapist who can testify (even though they'd prefer one who wouldn't do so), sounds like more evidence, he's sure the boy didn't do it.

I'd like for the therapist to be a truely private therapy session for the boy, someone he can talk to without any concerns - but I'm fine with him being able to testify, so long as both sides can question him, and he can give complete answers, because I always think getting at the truth is the most important thing. A neutral therapist who hopefully won't push the boy to tell him one story or another, should be a very good thing for him.

But I can't see a defense attorney who thinks that the boy is going to have something he'll confess to the therapist, agreeing to terms that allow the therapist to talk. It'd be almost malpractice to do so.

[Kara]

If the defense attorney thought they boy did it - seems like he'd be more scared of the therapist being allowed to talk. Since he's game for a therapist who can testify (even though they'd prefer one who wouldn't do so), sounds like more evidence, he's sure the boy didn't do it.

I'd like for the therapist to be a truely private therapy session for the boy, someone he can talk to without any concerns - but I'm fine with him being able to testify, so long as both sides can question him, and he can give complete answers, because I always think getting at the truth is the most important thing. A neutral therapist who hopefully won't push the boy to tell him one story or another, should be a very good thing for him.

But I can't see a defense attorney who thinks that the boy is going to have something he'll confess to the therapist, agreeing to terms that allow the therapist to talk. It'd be almost malpractice to do so.

Whatever happened to doctor patient confidentiality? Surely there can be a therapist assigned whose job it is to provide therapy, not to analyze the child for the court. I can understand the need to have analysis done for the defense, the prosecution and the court...but a therapist whose job is simply to provide therapy should be provided too.

[Kara]

This part of the latest azcentral.com article makes it sound like the therapist would have to testify:



I know that attorneys can hire accountants to do work for a criminal defendant and the accountant would not be required to testify because the accountant's work is covered under the attorney work product privilege. Does anybody know if there is something similar for therapists?I would agree with your interpretation of the the newspaper article.

I don't understand how this wouldn't be covered under either work product or doctor/patient confidentiality though....

[muska]

I was just remembering another strange thing about this case in its early hours. In the interview with Neckels, Neckels said that she was in charge of the crime scene and that she would not have removed the bodies nearly as quickly as they were removed. She said the police chief ordered their removal when she wasn't there. She agreed with the defense attorney that had the bodies been left in place, more discovery could have taken place. This made the chief look bad (incompetent?) and might help explain why he was so anxious to call his case solved the next morning.

Does anyone know when the house was returned to Tiffany? I know it was almost immediately. Wouldn't it normally remain a crime scene until defense could see it?

[Justice_Dawg]

Yes! I think everyone understands he did this and is in desperate need of therapy and all the help he can get. As it should be...he's 8

I would hope this case illustrates the need to amend AZ law about charging 8 yr olds ....they need to have a decent plan in place if they do!

Say What??? I don't think he DID THIS AT ALL!
We would have to understand you and your thought process, and we would need a professional to get to that. So....
Forget it.
:glare:

[Justice_Dawg]

Quite a s-t-r-e-t-c-h there, IMO. :unsure:

That's a JOKE IMO. :lol:

[tif]

I was just remembering another strange thing about this case in its early hours. In the interview with Neckels, Neckels said that she was in charge of the crime scene and that she would not have removed the bodies nearly as quickly as they were removed. She said the police chief ordered their removal when she wasn't there. She agreed with the defense attorney that had the bodies been left in place, more discovery could have taken place. This made the chief look bad (incompetent?) and might help explain why he was so anxious to call his case solved the next morning.

Does anyone know when the house was returned to Tiffany? I know it was almost immediately. Wouldn't it normally remain a crime scene until defense could see it?

If you Google "Roy Melnick" and "Ashland, MA" you'll get some interesting insights into the police chief. What I gathered from the articles and the comments was that this guy was practically run out of Ashland on a rail. The way he ran his mouth in the beginning and showed up on the Today Show was extremely unprofessional.

[muska]

If you Google "Roy Melnick" and "Ashland, MA" you'll get some interesting insights into the police chief. What I gathered from the articles and the comments was that this guy was practically run out of Ashland on a rail. The way he ran his mouth in the beginning and showed up on the Today Show was extremely unprofessional.

I have read a few articles about him. He had no respect for others in Ashland and none in St Johns either. Of course, what he's done in AZ is a lot worse. I wonder what made them hire him from across the country, seems like there would have been someone more familiar with the area.

[Justice_Dawg]

Witness List has a Narcotics Detective on it.

[IAMME]

If you Google "Roy Melnick" and "Ashland, MA" you'll get some interesting insights into the police chief. What I gathered from the articles and the comments was that this guy was practically run out of Ashland on a rail. The way he ran his mouth in the beginning and showed up on the Today Show was extremely unprofessional.

I do not mean this to sound as degrading as it is going to sound.

Most police officers are not professionals, all they need is a GED and a few weeks of training, small towns certainly dont have the resources to hire officers that have more education than that.......So why does it surprise us when they dont act like professionals?

[Kara]

Witness List has a Narcotics Detective on it.Hmmm......

Iam...do you know what the requirements are to become a cop? My nephew is a cop in DC (capitol police) and he has a bachelor's degree. My friend's son is a cop and I know he has a bachelor's degree too...and he's a fish and game cop.

Is there any uniformity in the requirements to become LE?

[Justice_Dawg]

I have read a few articles about him. He had no respect for others in Ashland and none in St Johns either. Of course, what he's done in AZ is a lot worse. I wonder what made them hire him from across the country, seems like there would have been someone more familiar with the area.

Chief is a racist. He was sued twice for it in MA.:cursing:
The boy is 1/2 Hispanic. He is dark.

[Justice_Dawg]

I do not mean this to sound as degrading as it is going to sound.

Most police officers are not professionals, all they need is a GED and a few weeks of training, small towns certainly dont have the resources to hire officers that have more education than that.......So why does it surprise us when they dont act like professionals?

It's a 2 mo. training course here. WoW! :w00t:

[muska]

Witness List has a Narcotics Detective on it.

The $500 still seems suspicious to me. Does it to anyone else? I don't know anyone who would carry around that kind of money, but maybe that's just me. It wasn't the end of the week so it probably wasn't payday.

[IAMME]

Hmmm......

Iam...do you know what the requirements are to become a cop? My nephew is a cop in DC (capitol police) and he has a bachelor's degree. My friend's son is a cop and I know he has a bachelor's degree too...and he's a fish and game cop.

Is there any uniformity in the requirements to become LE?


Nope, larger cities have bigger budgets, if you had a degree would you work in a city that can pay you a living wage or would you come to my podunk town earning @ 25,000. per yr? It is a case of "you get what you pay for."

I can't speak for all small towns but I know in mine you don't even have to complete training, all you gotta have is a GED, no felony convictions, and a clear drug screen to qualify.

I know not every cop has as limited educational training, my aunt is a detective in St Louis and she has her masters, but that is a city with a budget, she would cut her pay dramatically if she came to my town, I don't even think she would make 1/4th of what she makes now.

[Justice_Dawg]

The $500 still seems suspicious to me. Does it to anyone else? I don't know anyone who would carry around that kind of money, but maybe that's just me. It wasn't the end of the week so it probably wasn't payday.

I wonder if they found drugs in the home.

Remember the interview where the boy said Tim kept something in his room, a box or something.... but they didn't let him go on about it.

[tif]

You get a lot more hits if you leave off the MA in the Roy Melnick search.

[Kara]

Nope, larger cities have bigger budgets, if you had a degree would you work in a city that can pay you a living wage or would you come to my podunk town earning @ 25,000. per yr? It is a case of "you get what you pay for."

I can't speak for all small towns but I know in mine you don't even have to complete training, all you gotta have is a GED, no felony convictions, and a clear drug screen to qualify.

I know not every cop has as limited educational training, my aunt is a detective in St Louis and she has her masters, but that is a city with a budget, she would cut her pay dramatically if she came to my town, I don't even think she would make 1/4th of what she makes now.
It also costs more to live in a large city. I know real estate values in Nova (DC metro area) are about double what they are here, so your rent/mortgage is double too. You have to pay more in an area with a high cost of living....

But...I would hope my cops are professional even in a smaller town. :(

Maybe I can become a cop. Do you think a small town might hire an almost 50 year old, physically fit, high school grad? :)

I do have some post high school education but it's mostly in child development... Given the nature of some cops and criminals, the child development studies might come in handy though.... lol

[muska]

I wonder if they found drugs in the home.

Remember the interview where the boy said Tim kept something in his room, a box or something.... but they didn't let him go on about it.

There's a huge drug problem near the border. I was reading about it. There's Route 15 that comes across the border into the US and is renamed (19,77,61) a few times before it gets to St Johns. Route 15 is on some kind US list for Americans to avoid because there is so much drug related violence in the area and it said Americans have been followed and harassed on that road. I'm just saying it leads up to St Johns. I know it's a real unlikely link but I'm tired and I just thought I'd throw it out there.

[IAMME]

It also costs more to live in a large city. I know real estate values in Nova (DC metro area) are about double what they are here, so your rent/mortgage is double too. You have to pay more in an area with a high cost of living....

But...I would hope my cops are professional even in a smaller town. :(

Maybe I can become a cop. Do you think a small town might hire an almost 50 year old, physically fit, high school grad? :)

I do have some post high school education but it's mostly in child development... Given the nature of some cops and criminals, the child development studies might come in handy though.... lol

Here is a link to a job opening for a police officer in St Johns, you can also download the app in pdf form. Nothing mentioned in the ad about education, but if you notice the one below it DOES list ed. requirements, which leads me to believe that St Johns is just like my town in that all you gotta have is a GED.

http://www.sjaz.us/index.asp?nid=172

I don't see why they wouldn't hire you in my town, they have hired 21y/o kids, we currently have three officers who are morbidly obese and couldnt chase a suspect on foot if their lives depended on it, men who later were charged with stalking and then found to have been fired for that very reason from their previous dept., the list goes on and on....I know all of the officers in my town, both the city PD and the sherrifs dept, as well as three of the game&fish and/or forest service guys, right now we have a pretty good group working, but it doesnt stay that way, I went to high school with some of these guys and they got their EMTs right after HS, which is just a few months course here, and went to work for the county EMS, and as soon as they hit 21 they went to work for LE.

25,000. a year is not enough to live on no matter where you live. IMO

ETA: I once witnesses the most experience cop in my town dust a window screen for prints, NOT the edge, but the screen wire mesh..........

[Kara]

Here is a link to a job opening for a police officer in St Johns, you can also download the app in pdf form. Nothing mentioned in the ad about education, but if you notice the one below it DOES list ed. requirements, which leads me to believe that St Johns is just like my town in that all you gotta have is a GED.

http://www.sjaz.us/index.asp?nid=172

I don't see why they wouldn't hire you in my town, they have hired 21y/o kids, we currently have three officers who are morbidly obese and couldnt chase a suspect on foot if their lives depended on it, men who later were charged with stalking and then found to have been fired for that very reason from their previous dept., the list goes on and on....I know all of the officers in my town, both the city PD and the sherrifs dept, as well as three of the game&fish and/or forest service guys, right now we have a pretty good group working, but it doesnt stay that way, I went to high school with some of these guys and they got their EMTs right after HS, which is just a few months course here, and went to work for the county EMS, and as soon as they hit 21 they went to work for LE.

25,000. a year is not enough to live on no matter where you live. IMO

ETA: I once witnesses the most experience cop in my town dust a window screen for prints, NOT the edge, but the screen wire mesh..........I would laugh...but I guess it's really not funny....

I'm still reading the preadjudication doc...and I'm wondering about the doctor discussion. Any info on this Dr. Rishel?? Mr Wood seems to be very displeased with her and does not want her conducting the physical examination of the boy.

ETA...page 18--lines 1-4

[Kara]

OMG!! I read some posts ealier today in refernce to "sign language" during the physical exam of the child. The way it was worded it sounded like it was the defense suggesting sign language be used. *insert eye roll here*

It was the court, being facetious, who made the comment about sign language.

Some people sure like to do the twist when it comes to evidence in this case.

Page 19--lines 8 and 9.

[Justice_Dawg]

I would laugh...but I guess it's really not funny....

I'm still reading the preadjudication doc...and I'm wondering about the doctor discussion. Any info on this Dr. Rishel?? Mr Wood seems to be very displeased with her and does not want her conducting the physical examination of the boy.

ETA...page 18--lines 1-4

He said people go runnng out of her office crying!
OMG!
Plus she's yappy.:cursing:

[IAMME]

I would laugh...but I guess it's really not funny....

I'm still reading the preadjudication doc...and I'm wondering about the doctor discussion. Any info on this Dr. Rishel?? Mr Wood seems to be very displeased with her and does not want her conducting the physical examination of the boy.

ETA...page 18--lines 1-4


That happened when I was 14, my mother's business had been broken into, and even at 14 I looked on thinking "WTH?!?!" lol

[Justice_Dawg]

OMG!! I read some posts ealier today in refernce to "sign language" during the physical exam of the child. The way it was worded it sounded like it was the defense suggesting sign language be used. *insert eye roll here*

It was the court, being facetious, who made the comment about sign language.

Some people sure like to do the twist when it comes to evidence in this case.

Page 19--lines 8 and 9.What evidence? I haven't really heard of any yet. :confused:


:biggrin:

[Kara]

Argh! My browser locked up and I'm still reading the pdf...but I have concerns about records being given to the wrong people (should have gone to the defense and instead went to probation dept?) and mention of a very "thick" medical history on the child/defendant....

My eyes are getting bleary so I'm going to give up on reading the pdf tonight...but somebody please remind me of where I left off in the morning...

[Justice_Dawg]

There's a huge drug problem near the border. I was reading about it. There's Route 15 that comes across the border into the US and is renamed (19,77,61) a few times before it gets to St Johns. Route 15 is on some kind US list for Americans to avoid because there is so much drug related violence in the area and it said Americans have been followed and harassed on that road. I'm just saying it leads up to St Johns. I know it's a real unlikely link but I'm tired and I just thought I'd throw it out there.

The gunshot in Tim's truck really bothers me too.

I wonder if the boy knows anything about that? They may have talked about what happened in front of him.
Maybe he will tell the therapist. Let her testify to something like that.:wink:

[Justice_Dawg]

Argh! My browser locked up and I'm still reading the pdf...but I have concerns about records being given to the wrong people (should have gone to the defense and instead went to probation dept?) and mention of a very "thick" medical history on the child/defendant....

My eyes are getting bleary so I'm going to give up on reading the pdf tonight...but somebody please remind me of where I left off in the morning...

OK.

Odd, when my son was 8 his medical history was very thin. He's 23 and it's still thin. Guess I am lucky.

[muska]

What was that all about on pages 24-27 and especially p27,lines 11-21? The judge was lecturing the defense,"I know this case is a major disruption for you but it's important to the boy's self-interest to have....the maximum amount of information." It seemed like defense didn't want to pick up the child's medical and educational info and didn't want anyone else to either...said he didn't want to drive to Phoenix and didn't know if the material was relevant. The attorneys normally have seemed very interested in the boy's well-being so I think I must have just not understood what was going on there. Can someone else have a look?

[IAMME]

I would laugh...but I guess it's really not funny....

I'm still reading the preadjudication doc...and I'm wondering about the doctor discussion. Any info on this Dr. Rishel?? Mr Wood seems to be very displeased with her and does not want her conducting the physical examination of the boy.

ETA...page 18--lines 1-4

http://www.azjournal.com/news/126/ARTICLE/2891/2008-09-17.html

http://www.northcountryhealthcare.org/Hannah.aspx

http://papijoon-good-health.blogspot.com/2007/02/freed-to-serve-by-hannah-rishel-arizona.html

[JD1974]

A curtain or partition can be put in place to ensure no one sees the boy but can also hear what is said. No one has to "gawk" at the boy.


That is how they do it as far as I know, when I had a problem with my 2 girls and I don't want to go into what, I was in the room the whole time but the doctor made sure my girls dignity was preserved. They were 6 and 7 at time.

[JD1974]

No I thought it was comical all what he was wanting and even Judge Roca thought it was too and a little extreme. Like everywhere he has to go people have to talk in sign language to him rather than utter a word.:biggrin:

imoo


Since the kid can't even understand that anything he says can be used against him apparently someone has to protect him. hey that actually says something about how much he can comprehend about what is happening to him, if he did kill those men he doesn't even realize that by telling a doctor or other person he trusts can get him into trouble!

[Justice_Dawg]

What was that all about on pages 24-27 and especially p27,lines 11-21? The judge was lecturing the defense,"I know this case is a major disruption for you but it's important to the boy's self-interest to have....the maximum amount of information." It seemed like defense didn't want to pick up the child's medical and educational info and didn't want anyone else to either...said he didn't want to drive to Phoenix and didn't know if the material was relevant. The attorneys normally have seemed very interested in the boy's well-being so I think I must have just not understood what was going on there. Can someone else have a look?

Read page 26 line 7-11

[IAMME]

OK.

Odd, when my son was 8 his medical history was very thin. He's 23 and it's still thin. Guess I am lucky.

You are lucky, By the time my daughter was 2 hers was 3 inches thick (at least) and It stayed with her 24/7, both my others however were very healthy, and she is now, she just had a rough start....

If he was very premature, his records would be extensive, if they truely want the records for the eval I would assume they would want the nurses notes, bc that is where they are going to find all the parental interactions, such as early bonding ect....The nurses narrative notes would be PAGES for every shift every day he was hospitalized. In one shift as a labor nurse it would be common for my nurses notes for ONE patient to be ten+ pages in 8 hours, and that is just the narrative, not including the assesment checklists. (this is one reason I no longer practice nursing)

I also found it strange that defense didn't want these records, I would think they would want EVERY scrap of information they could get to help them defend their client......

ETA: I wonder if they will also get his mothers records from delivery, bc the LDRP nurses should observe and note any problems with bonding for the purpose of identifying risk of abuse and neglect, and these notes have been used before in criminal cases of abuse/neglect.

[muska]

Read page 26 line 7-11

So was he just being sarcastic/annoyed because the prosecution hasn't turned anything over? Thanks!

[Justice_Dawg]

You are lucky, By the time my daughter was 2 hers was 3 inches thick (at least) and It stayed with her 24/7, both my others however were very healthy, and she is now, she just had a rough start....

If he was very premature, his records would be extensive, if they truely want the records for the eval I would assume they would want the nurses notes, bc that is where they are going to find all the parental interactions, such as early bonding ect....The nurses narrative notes would be PAGES for every shift every day he was hosptitalized. In one shift as a labor nurse it would be common for my nurses notes for ONE patient to be ten+ pages in 8 hours, and that is just the narrative, not including the assesment checklists. (this is one reason I no longer practice nursing)

I also found it strange that defense didn't want these records, I would think they would want EVERY scrap of information they could get to help them defend their client......

The prosecutors want them so bad because they will show the boy "may be" competent. :glare: That is all they are worried about. Wood already knows all about the boy. His mother has told all.

[Justice_Dawg]

So was he just being sarcastic/annoyed because the prosecution hasn't turned anything over? Thanks!

I found it quite funny. Some defense attorneys will actually say in court things like "I am sure if the prosecutor opens his briefcase "poof" the documents will appear out of the black hole."
:laugh:

[Dallasnc]

I've been wondering what's up with some questions.
Avilla was asked where Tiffany was and when. One of her answers was she was at Wilbers but didn't know which one and that is was 1 1/2 to 2 miles away. She was questioned, if going the speed limit would it take a couple of minutes. She replied 45 but it you turned it up, 25. I took this to be minutes. I googled and there is one .8 mile time 2 minutes. She was also questioned about Tiffany and childs demenor. The transcriber italitized her reponses very upset. The reply about the child was not upset, like it was any other day.

One more observation about comments I have read concerning Tims public arrest record being a long time ago when he was young. Tim had a card with a probation officer name on it. It was also brought out that they had to request information about his arrest and prison time from the reservation. IMO him having a probation officer means this was fairly recent.

I hope this links works!
http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/Avilla.pdf

[muska]

I found it quite funny. Some defense attorneys will actually say in court things like "I am sure if the prosecutor opens his briefcase "poof" the documents will appear out of the black hole."
:laugh:

Okay, I finally understand. I guess this means that my competency would be in doubt as I can't even figure out what the lawyers are saying! Thanks for the clarification.

[IAMME]

The prosecutors want them so bad because they will show the boy "may be" competent. :glare: That is all they are worried about. Wood already knows all about the boy. His mother has told all.

I don't understand how they would help the pros. He is 8, even if they say he is a healthy normal even advanced 8y/o, I doubt they would show him to be competent based on age alone.......even if they show he is gifted he would more than likely show asynchronous development which is the norm in gifted kids....

Can you explain some more? Like what kinds of things they may be looking for in those records to prove competency......

ETA: stupid grammar/spelling mistake

[Justice_Dawg]

I've been wondering what's up with some questions.
Avilla was asked where Tiffany was and when. One of her answers was she was at Wilbers but didn't know which one and that is was 1 1/2 to 2 miles away. She was questioned, if going the speed limit would it take a couple of minutes. She replied 45 but it you turned it up, 25. I took this to be minutes. I googled and there is one .8 mile time 2 minutes. She was also questioned about Tiffany and childs demenor. The transcriber italitized her reponses very upset. The reply about the child was not upset, like it was any other day.

One more observation about comments I have read concerning Tims public arrest record being a long time ago when he was young. Tim had a card with a probation officer name on it. It was also brought out that they had to request information about his arrest and prison time from the reservation. IMO him having a probation officer means this was fairly recent.

I hope this links works!
http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/Avilla.pdf

Tiffany was at the first interview with the boy. GET THIS:
TA: One thing he said, and, um, he said that he, when he first started talkin ta me he said that when he got home from school, he found them, and then I told him, I says well, you wouldn’t be able ta find them when you got home from school cuz he hadn’t even left work yet. He just went ‘n walked around a little bit. But I, thought nothing, um, what he said was, he kinda like, got quiet and, I told him, I says, you know, yer mom’s gonna yell at you and be mad at you if you, uh, tell me the truth. And he says well, I walked around a little bit. And, um, then he went home and he found em.
------------
IMO
She scared the boy. He would be "on guard".

[Justice_Dawg]

I don't understand how they would help the pros. He is 8, even if they say he is a healthy normal even advanced 8y/o, I doubt they would show him to be competent based on age alone.......even if they show he is gifted he would more than likely show asynchronous development which is the norm in gifted kids....

Can you explain some more? Like what kinds of things they may be looking for in those records to prove competency......

ETA: stupid grammar/spelling mistake
Defense is thinking:
Am I willing to take the chance?
It is the educational and Medical right?
What if educators say the boy is street smart, or smart beyond his years. I wouldn't want to take the chance of having anything sway the decision.

[muska]

Defense is thinking:
Am I willing to take the chance?
It is the educational and Medical right?
What if educators say the boy is street smart, or smart beyond his years. I wouldn't want to take the chance of having anything sway the decision.

I don't think they could possibly claim an eight year old is competent to help with his defense, do you? If he's deemed incompetent, though, do you think the judge will grant that request to drop one charge? That would be a nightmare. The kid might never get past all of this.

[IAMME]

Defense is thinking:
Am I willing to take the chance?
It is the educational and Medical right?
What if educators say the boy is street smart, or smart beyond his years. I wouldn't want to take the chance of having anything sway the decision.

But they actually have no choice, right? Did I understand all of the "lecture" right?

[Justice_Dawg]

I don't think they could possibly claim an eight year old is competent to help with his defense, do you? If he's deemed incompetent, though, do you think the judge will grant that request to drop one charge? That would be a nightmare. The kid might never get past all of this.

An 8 yr old doesn't have the attention span to sit for hours and listen and comprehend what is going on around him. No.

If he's deemed incompetent, the judge will most likely go by law and will wait the 240 days to see if he is competent to stand trial. If not, all charges have to be dropped WITH prejudice. They can never be refiled. I don't think he will drop them before then, no.

[Justice_Dawg]

But they actually have no choice, right? Did I understand all of the "lecture" right?

The judge wants them. He wears the robe. Carlyon said he would go get them. Wood said Oh no, I'll get them.

I wouldn't trust Carlyon either:rolleyes:

[bookie]

You are lucky, By the time my daughter was 2 hers was 3 inches thick (at least) and It stayed with her 24/7, both my others however were very healthy, and she is now, she just had a rough start....

If he was very premature, his records would be extensive, if they truely want the records for the eval I would assume they would want the nurses notes, bc that is where they are going to find all the parental interactions, such as early bonding ect....The nurses narrative notes would be PAGES for every shift every day he was hospitalized. In one shift as a labor nurse it would be common for my nurses notes for ONE patient to be ten+ pages in 8 hours, and that is just the narrative, not including the assesment checklists. (this is one reason I no longer practice nursing)

I also found it strange that defense didn't want these records, I would think they would want EVERY scrap of information they could get to help them defend their client......

ETA: I wonder if they will also get his mothers records from delivery, bc the LDRP nurses should observe and note any problems with bonding for the purpose of identifying risk of abuse and neglect, and these notes have been used before in criminal cases of abuse/neglect.



Two of my grandchildren were born 3 months premature each. They spent 2 months each in the NICU. They are both under 5 years old now and very healthy but if you collected all of their medical records from birth until now they would both have very thick files.

I think the point Wood was trying to make was that he didn't think the medical records were needed because they weren't important to the case.

[Justice_Dawg]

Eight and on Trial: Young Defendants Throw Criminal Justice Into Confusion
In his videotaped confession to the police, the eight-year-old boy sits in an overstuffed office chair and calmly describes how he shot his father and his father's roommate to death with a rifle. At one point, he buries his head in his jacket and says, "I'm going to go to juvie."

Prosecutors in Arizona, who could have sought to charge the boy as an adult, have charged him in juvenile court with the murder of his father, Vincent Romero, 29, and Timothy Romans, 39. He could face a trial or plea hearing and end up in a locked facility, designed mainly for teenagers, conceivably until he is 18.

The case highlights an old but persistent quandary of the criminal justice system. Despite society's natural impulse to secure justice for the victims of heinous crimes, most experts agree the adult system is no place for very young children. But some question whether they should face charges in the juvenile system itself, meant for older children.

"When we made so-called murder policy, nobody had an eight-year-old in mind," says Franklin Zimring, a professor at the University of California at Berkeley School of Law.

More here:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122895801049696725.html

[wolfi_2]

Eight and on Trial: Young Defendants Throw Criminal Justice Into Confusion
In his videotaped confession to the police, the eight-year-old boy sits in an overstuffed office chair and calmly describes how he shot his father and his father's roommate to death with a rifle. At one point, he buries his head in his jacket and says, "I'm going to go to juvie."

Prosecutors in Arizona, who could have sought to charge the boy as an adult, have charged him in juvenile court with the murder of his father, Vincent Romero, 29, and Timothy Romans, 39. He could face a trial or plea hearing and end up in a locked facility, designed mainly for teenagers, conceivably until he is 18.

The case highlights an old but persistent quandary of the criminal justice system. Despite society's natural impulse to secure justice for the victims of heinous crimes, most experts agree the adult system is no place for very young children. But some question whether they should face charges in the juvenile system itself, meant for older children.

"When we made so-called murder policy, nobody had an eight-year-old in mind," says Franklin Zimring, a professor at the University of California at Berkeley School of Law.

More here:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122895801049696725.html

-here in Germany this case would be resolved very fast !

[muska]

My favorite quote from WSJ article: "To often, we get prosecutors that think they're going to get their 15 minutess of fame by making some kind of zany decision they feel panders to the anger in the public," says Busch. "It takes a lot more courage not to prosecute someone."

Busch is the attorney who declined to prosecute the 6 year old who shot his classmate. He went after the gun owner instead.

[Justice_Dawg]

-here in Germany this case would be resolved very fast !

Well today is my Birthday and my only wish is to have the boy released to his momma. :rose:

[Justice_Dawg]

My favorite quote from WSJ article: "To often, we get prosecutors that think they're going to get their 15 minutess of fame by making some kind of zany decision they feel panders to the anger in the public," says Busch. "It takes a lot more courage not to prosecute someone."

Busch is the attorney who declined to prosecute the 6 year old who shot his classmate. He went after the gun owner instead.

ITA!! They are all talking about hardcore street kids. This is NOT the case here.

[muska]

well today is my birthday and my only wish is to have the boy released to his momma. :rose:

happy birthday!!!

[Justice_Dawg]

happy birthday!!!

Thank you!!:biggrin:

[wolfi_2]

Well today is my Birthday and my only wish is to have the boy released to his momma. :rose:


Happy Birthday !

[Kara]

OK.

Odd, when my son was 8 his medical history was very thin. He's 23 and it's still thin. Guess I am lucky.
Good morning. It's a dark and dreary day here and I'm ready to wipe the sleep from my eyes and resume reading. :)

I'm 49 and my medical history is still pretty thin. Unless a kid is born with some sort of defect or gets into a bad wreck, I would expect a thin medical history. I guess asthma might account for a thick medical file....

[Kara]

http://www.azjournal.com/news/126/ARTICLE/2891/2008-09-17.html

http://www.northcountryhealthcare.org/Hannah.aspx

http://papijoon-good-health.blogspot.com/2007/02/freed-to-serve-by-hannah-rishel-arizona.htmlShe sounds good on paper. I wonder why patients leave her traumatized.

[Justice_Dawg]

Happy Birthday !

Thank you!

I remember when I was 17, (30 yrs ago today!) about 30 of us got together and went to Montana Mountain (NJ) to Celebrate. We were all lined up in cars because it was so cold, but we were drinking and smokin', having a great time. Until...
3 State Police cars pulled up. They made us all get out of the cars, they poured out every beer, one by one, every bag of pot one by one. OMG, the good old days. :ohmy:
One catch though. My MOM was DATING one of the cops!!!! He PUT ME in his Cop car and brought me home!!! They let everyone else go. LOL I will never forget it.

[LindaNJ1216]

Say What??? I don't think he DID THIS AT ALL!
We would have to understand you and your thought process, and we would need a professional to get to that. So....
Forget it.
:glare:

I was not referring to posters on a message board. It's my opinion that those involved, those in court, believe he did it and want to help him.

I would appreciate it if you would stop attacking me. It's rude and against TOS

[LindaNJ1216]

The $500 still seems suspicious to me. Does it to anyone else? I don't know anyone who would carry around that kind of money, but maybe that's just me. It wasn't the end of the week so it probably wasn't payday.

I always roll with three or four hundred, just in case. I never carry a credit card. I keep it home for emergencies and major purchases to increase the warranties. I don't even carry a debit card anymore after I learned I was paying higher prices for using it. I do not find it odd at all.

[Justice_Dawg]

She sounds good on paper. I wonder why patients leave her traumatized.

I think the real reason is she works directly with Carlyon. Did you read that part? LOL

[LindaNJ1216]

edited
ETA: I once witnesses the most experience cop in my town dust a window screen for prints, NOT the edge, but the screen wire mesh..........

OMG! That's scary!

[Kara]

Well today is my Birthday and my only wish is to have the boy released to his momma. :rose:

Happy birthday!

[Justice_Dawg]

I was not referring to posters on a message board. It's my opinion that those involved, those in court, believe he did it and want to help him.

I would appreciate it if you would stop attacking me. It's rude and against TOS


I am sorry, I didn't think I attacked you. You quoted a post of mine and you stated, we all think...I stated we don't all think like that.
And I meant people like you as in those involved, those in court that believe the boy did this with no evidence to back it up! Right now he does need help, but not the kind he is NOT getting!

[LindaNJ1216]

She sounds good on paper. I wonder why patients leave her traumatized.

I doubt very much they do. ....consider the source

[muska]

www.scrippsnews.com/node/3180

A few quotes on hundred dollar bills:
"the underground economy and criminal economy thrive on paper money, especially the $100 bill."

"the payment of choice by drug cartels....is the $100 bill...."

"Because $100s are difficult to change, and it is risky and unnecessary for the law abiding American to carry or store, the functional use for the $100 bill has been declining in the lawful economy while its demand in the underground economies is booming."

[muska]

Sorry, that was suppose to be

www.scrippsnews.com/node/31280

[Justice_Dawg]

I doubt very much they do. ....consider the source

Thanks to the tireless efforts of Dr. Hannah Rishel, a physician with North Country HealthCare and a trained forensic examiner, and many other members of the Family Advocacy Center Task Force, including Assistant Navajo County Attorney Brad Carlyon, forensic interviewer Detective Tim Dixon with Holbrook Police Department, Child Protection Services (CPS) Investigations Supervisor C.J. Wischmann and many other individuals, services for victims of abuse will become a coordinated effort.
http://www.azjournal.com/news/126/ARTICLE/2891/2008-09-17.html

[LindaNJ1216]

I am sorry, I didn't think I attacked you. You quoted a post of mine and you stated, we all think...I stated we don't all think like that.
And I meant people like you as in those involved, those in court that believe the boy did this with no evidence to back it up! Right now he does need help, but not the kind he is NOT getting!

It's post 447.
I never stated "we all"
Your use of the word "you" was very specific

[Kara]

I doubt very much they do. ....consider the sourceAre you suggesting that Mr. Woods was blatantly lying to the court and Mr. Carlyon just let that lie slide by w/o challenge?

[Justice_Dawg]

It's post 447.
I never stated "we all"
Your use of the word "you" was very specific

My bad.
You stated:
"I think everyone understands he did this"

[LindaNJ1216]

Thanks to the tireless efforts of Dr. Hannah Rishel, a physician with North Country HealthCare and a trained forensic examiner, and many other members of the Family Advocacy Center Task Force, including Assistant Navajo County Attorney Brad Carlton, forensic interviewer Detective Tim Dixon with Holbrook Police Department, Child Protection Services (CPS) Investigations Supervisor C.J. Wischmann and many other individuals, services for victims of abuse will become a coordinated effort.
http://www.azjournal.com/news/126/ARTICLE/2891/2008-09-17.html

Your point? She seems to be very qualified. You don't think this doctor could be objective? You honestly believe she would LIE about the abuse of a child? Seems to me she's quite the child advocate.

In NJ, a Doctor Finkle heads THE place for sexually abused children. His model has been implemented nationwide and coordinates all resources including but not limited to the DA's office, child protection agencies, etc. EVERYONE understands what's in the child's best interest, there is no conflict of interest when it comes to a child.

This pediatrician seems to have the same sort of coordinated efforts. So WHY would a defense attorney balk? If the TRUTH of the matter was important to the well being of THIS child, why not use the best and most experienced? There should be no conflict of interest when it concerns the abuse of a child.

[LindaNJ1216]

Are you suggesting that Mr. Woods was blatantly lying to the court and Mr. Carlyon just let that lie slide by w/o challenge?

I think the prosecution is amenable. There will either be detectable evidence of child abuse or not. (I am not saying the absence of evidence of abuse means he was never abused)

A forensic exam of a child could be traumatic, I believe examiners of children in this particular area do EVERYTHING humanly possible to minimize any discomfort. Especially one with her background.

Yes, I am saying Mr. Woods was blatantly lying.

[Justice_Dawg]

Are you suggesting that Mr. Woods was blatantly lying to the court and Mr. Carlyon just let that lie slide by w/o challenge?
I think she mades that very clear that she thinks Mr. WOOD was lying.

[Kara]

I think the prosecution is amenable. There will either be detectable evidence of child abuse or not. (I am not saying the absence of evidence of abuse means he was never abused)

A forensic exam of a child could be traumatic, I believe examiners of children in this particular area do EVERYTHING humanly possible to minimize any discomfort. Especially one with her background.

Yes, I am saying Mr. Woods was blatantly lying.*shaking head in disbelief*

I can't believe you actually said that. You believe an officer of the court lied to the court and slandered this fine doctor and the "amenable" prosecutor just allowed it to go unchallenged.

I just don't know what else to say....I am literally shaking my head in disbelief.

[Dallasnc]

Well today is my Birthday and my only wish is to have the boy released to his momma. :rose:

I really hope you get your wish!!!! :rose:

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, friend.

[tif]

From the WSJ article:

Eight and on Trial: Young Defendants Throw Criminal Justice Into Confusion
In his videotaped confession to the police, the eight-year-old boy sits in an overstuffed office chair and calmly describes how he shot his father and his father's roommate to death with a rifle. At one point, he buries his head in his jacket and says, "I'm going to go to juvie."

I'm heartened by the tone of the WSJ article in general, but the above quote completely misrepresents what the boy said. He didn't "calmly describe" anything. He gave cryptic answers to leading questions. I wonder if the reporter even watched the interview.

[Dallasnc]

-here in Germany this case would be resolved very fast !
What you happen to him in Germany?

I wish they would put the money they would pay to punish him, into out patient therapy, with him living with his mother. In my state and SC, the judge will order therapy, but sadly few actully get it. Alot of them come out worst than when they went in.

[FurthurBB]

I was not referring to posters on a message board. It's my opinion that those involved, those in court, believe he did it and want to help him.

I would appreciate it if you would stop attacking me. It's rude and against TOS


I am starting to think that none of them believe he did it at all. IMO

[FurthurBB]

I always roll with three or four hundred, just in case. I never carry a credit card. I keep it home for emergencies and major purchases to increase the warranties. I don't even carry a debit card anymore after I learned I was paying higher prices for using it. I do not find it odd at all.

It is not the norm though. IMO

[wolfi_2]

What you happen to him in Germany?

I wish they would put the money they would pay to punish him, into out patient therapy, with him living with his mother. In my state and SC, the judge will order therapy, but sadly few actully get it. Alot of them come out worst than when they went in.


Nothing ! -no juvi, -no trial, -no punishment cause he is below 14 years old and he is a minor. He would get the help he need now. The youth office would have a look at him and his family. He would be send to his mom or to a foster family with good background. Our law is very strict in this, childcare goes for punishment and justice. If he was 14 to 18 he can face a maximum charge of 15 years with the possibility of parole after a few years. in Germany you could not be sentenced as adult if you are not 18 years old.

[bkwits]

I am starting to think that none of them believe he did it at all. IMO

I am wondering about that, as well. :confused:

[bkwits]

I always roll with three or four hundred, just in case. I never carry a credit card. I keep it home for emergencies and major purchases to increase the warranties. I don't even carry a debit card anymore after I learned I was paying higher prices for using it. I do not find it odd at all.


I believe it is dangerous to carry that much cash around. Especially for a female. I hope you keep the cash hidden so that it isn't visible when you pay for something. I was almost the victim of purse snatching or mugging because a man saw a large bill in my wallet at the 7-11. He waited for me to leave and was starting towards me, when my husband stepped up. The other man ran down the side street.

It was fortunate that my husband was waiting outside the door for me.

[Dallasnc]

Nothing ! -no juvi, -no trial, -no punishment cause he is below 14 years old and he is a minor. He would get the help he need now. The youth office would have a look at him and his family. He would be send to his mom or to a foster family with good background. Our law is very strict in this, childcare goes for punishment and justice. If he was 14 to 18 he can face a maximum charge of 15 years with the possibility of parole after a few years. in Germany you could not be sentenced as adult if you are not 18 years old.

Do the 14 to 18 year olds get help if they are locked up?

I can assume it works, I hear no horror stories of minors running Germany.

Thanks for the information!

[wolfi_2]

Do the 14 to 18 year olds get help if they are locked up?

I can assume it works, I hear no horror stories of minors running Germany.

Thanks for the information!

yes, they get their help also, because the system is more based on rehabilitation. Normally all prison inmates get their help when needed. unfortunately the victim´s had more problem´s to get help when needed,- and that´s the only thing I can´t get conform with our law system.

[Justice_Dawg]

I am starting to think that none of them believe he did it at all. IMO

I said that yesterday. We are thinking along the same lines. Love it! :thumbsup: