~Honey~ I love you

[Politigal]

:huh:

?????

Ok folks...riddle me this

*If* Gricar walked away from his life as he knew it...it would have to have been methodically & meticulously planned over a period of time. He would have planned for back-up transportation, $$$, clothing, a new identity, a travel route & destination, a place to live or stay, and it probably would have involved an accomplice.

He would be leaving behind the daughter, who by all accounts he dearly loved & was extremely close to.

He would be leaving behind his retirement that he worked over 20 yrs to amass.

He would be leaving behind his reputation & career, his other family, his friends, his abode, his clothing, his Mini Cooper (that was titled in Patty's name,) his antique collectibles, his family photographs & memorabilia, his degrees, and everything he owned.

And he would leave all this behind ....without one goodbye....without one note....without one clue....without any apparent remorse....

Yet...he worried so much & felt so guilty about not being able to let Patty Fornicola's *DOG* out to pee, that he decided to phone?????????????????????


No folks...it DOES NOT compute.


It's time to take off the rose colored glasses (or put down the scotch) & use some common sense.

IMO

[J. J. in Phila]

First, the preparation. Yes, there is some circumstantial evidence. There are reports that RFG did some things and said some things prior to disappearing that are consistent with a voluntary walkaway. I disagree that he needed an accomplice, or helper, though that remains a possibility.

RFG expressed an interest in walkaway cases. He said several things that indicated he would not be present in the Fall of 2005. He expressed an interest in eliminating the contents of his laptop so that no one could see the data. He left no ties, and even the money he left behind was accessible by his daughter. He certainly seems to have so have some money unaccounted for.

RFG had announced his retirement, so there would be no "scramble" to fill the post. His own statement, about his retirement, indicated that he wasn't going to practice law or run for office, so "career" is not an issue. As for reputation, he didn't need one and, if he walked away, he brilliantly pulled it off, passing into legend. :) Would anyone be talking about him today but for his disappearance? No. He's achieved more fame as a missing prosecutor than being a retired one. (And that is only one possible reason.)

The Mini wasn't his, and the "antiques" have been overplayed (according to TG). He did like traveling, however.

As for his daughter, RFG might have intended to inform her, and for all I know, may have. Informing her then would put her in the position of lying to LE and failing the polygraph. There is another factor. Twelve hours after his last contact, he was reported missing, and 24 hours late, LG was sitting on the West Coast, but on her way to Bellefonte. He'd have no way of knowing if she would be in the company of LE or family when he called.

As for the call, why didn't RFG call from the house and very close to an area where there was no cell coverage? Answer, because he knew that Route 192 would be where LE would start to search. He'd know that there would be a record of the call.

While searching there, he is putting more distance between him and where LE is looking for him, and the Mini. Seriously, if someone wanted to make it look like suicide, why Route 192? Why not make the call from Lewisburg? A tiny little detail that delays the finding of the Mini.

And why Lewisburg. It's out of the A/J/SC media market, so virtually no one will walk to him and say, "Didn't I see you on TV?"

Yes P'gal, it is time take off the rose colored glasses and put down the drink. There is a lot of circumstantial evidence that RFG was intending to walk away. More than for murder or suicide. It does "compute," though it is not conclusive. The evidence I'm looking for is, if this circumstantial evidence is correct, how did RFG get out of Lewisburg?

[day2day]

:huh:

?????

Ok folks...riddle me this

*If* Gricar walked away from his life as he knew it...it would have to have been methodically & meticulously planned over a period of time. He would have planned for back-up transportation, $$$, clothing, a new identity, a travel route & destination, a place to live or stay, and it probably would have involved an accomplice.

He would be leaving behind the daughter, who by all accounts he dearly loved & was extremely close to.

He would be leaving behind his retirement that he worked over 20 yrs to amass.

He would be leaving behind his reputation & career, his other family, his friends, his abode, his clothing, his Mini Cooper (that was titled in Patty's name,) his antique collectibles, his family photographs & memorabilia, his degrees, and everything he owned.

And he would leave all this behind ....without one goodbye....without one note....without one clue....without any apparent remorse....

Yet...he worried so much & felt so guilty about not being able to let Patty Fornicola's *DOG* out to pee, that he decided to phone?????????????????????


No folks...it DOES NOT compute.


It's time to take off the rose colored glasses (or put down the scotch) & use some common sense.

IMO

If only Honey coulda "talked" I have a feeling this case would have already been solved.

GREAT post Pgal!!:thumbsup:

[J. J. in Phila]

If only Honey coulda "talked" I have a feeling this case would have already been solved.

GREAT post Pgal!!:thumbsup:

Only a great post if you ignore the evidence. Sorry, the circumstantial evidence points toward walk away, rather strongly.

Honey's walk is itself a clue. If the call was faked, why not make it from Lewisburg, and, if PEF faked it, why not simply say that they discussed it in the morning? Riddle me that?

[Cloudbuster]

:huh:

?????

Ok folks...riddle me this

*If* Gricar walked away from his life as he knew it...it would have to have been methodically & meticulously planned over a period of time. He would have planned for back-up transportation, $$$, clothing, a new identity, a travel route & destination, a place to live or stay, and it probably would have involved an accomplice.

I agree

He would be leaving behind the daughter, who by all accounts he dearly loved & was extremely close to.
He wasn't close to her by distance? She is always just a call away.
He would be leaving behind his retirement that he worked over 20 yrs to amass. Not necessarily just his SSI part.

He would be leaving behind his reputation & career, his other family, his friends, his abode, his clothing, his Mini Cooper (that was titled in Patty's name,) his antique collectibles, his family photographs & memorabilia, his degrees, and everything he owned.
All replaceable if the need arises.
And he would leave all this behind ....without one goodbye....without one note....without one clue....without any apparent remorse....
Why leave if you want to do it discreetly? Remorse? He probably couldn't wait. lol
Yet...he worried so much & felt so guilty about not being able to let Patty Fornicola's *DOG* out to pee, that he decided to phone?????????????????????

Oh while it is Patty's dog let her deal with it.
No folks...it DOES NOT compute.

Just computes to RG right?
It's time to take off the rose colored glasses (or put down the scotch) & use some common sense.
Glasses can be for day and night. No scotch intended lol. Common sense can not be used because everything about this case is NOT common. No sense intended. lol

IMO
This is a matter of opinion in the eyes of the beholder. lol

[Politigal]

If only Honey coulda "talked" I have a feeling this case would have already been solved.

GREAT post Pgal!!:thumbsup:


Thx Day....

It just seems so totally absurd to me that some would think that Gricar could just up & leave and not tell his beloved daughter goodbye, but care enough to worry about that damn dog.

That's ridiculous, and IMO it only leaves the *foul play* scenario.

[J. J. in Phila]

Thx Day....

It just seems so totally absurd to me that some would think that Gricar could just up & leave and not tell his beloved daughter goodbye, but care enough to worry about that damn dog.

That's ridiculous, and IMO it only leaves the *foul play* scenario.


I'm glad you approve of lying to the police.

P'gal do you have any children? Serious question. Just yes or no, not their ages/sexes or anything.

[Cloudbuster]

Thx Day....

It just seems so totally absurd to me that some would think that Gricar could just up & leave and not tell his beloved daughter goodbye, but care enough to worry about that damn dog.

That's ridiculous, and IMO it only leaves the *foul play* scenario.


Some folks like dogs more than people pgal. Ray himself didn't speak much to live folks. He can always catch up with his daughter when he felt it safe to do. He cared about that dog cause he only felt remorse leaving it behind maybe. Really some folks care for animals more than people. Heck he divorced two woman, one of them didn't even know anything was wrong in the marriage. Ray would be hard to figure out, although being a legend seems not to be in his character. Perhaps not wanting to answer to anybody might fit considering he left before for a cleveland Indian game? You must remember he was the chief law enforcement head so not answering to anybody matches that. lol

[Politigal]

Some folks like dogs more than people pgal. Ray himself didn't speak much to live folks. He can always catch up with his daughter when he felt it safe to do. He cared about that dog cause he only felt remorse leaving it behind maybe. Really some folks care for animals more than people. Heck he divorced two woman, one of them didn't even know anything was wrong in the marriage. Ray would be hard to figure out, although being a legend seems not to be in his character. Perhaps not wanting to answer to anybody might fit considering he left before for a cleveland Indian game? You must remember he was the chief law enforcement head so not answering to anybody matches that. lol

IIRC, the dog belonged to Patty. And with all the articles about Gricar's history...his daughter Lara was *the* major factor in his life....no animals were mentioned (other than Honey.)

[J. J. in Phila]

IIRC, the dog belonged to Patty. And with all the articles about Gricar's history...his daughter Lara was *the* major factor in his life....no animals were mentioned.

He hadn't been in the household since 1990, and she was an adult living 2500 miles away.

Now, RFG, if he left, would be aware that LE would talk to her. Do you really think that he'd want to put her in a position where she'd have to lie to the police. Telling her would mean that he would he would expect her to lie to LE, or tell the truth, thus ruining his plan to walk away. Then there is the polygraph. He'd know it was possible that she'd be asked to take a polygraph. If she don't know, she can answer truthfully.

[Cloudbuster]

IIRC, the dog belonged to Patty. And with all the articles about Gricar's history...his daughter Lara was *the* major factor in his life....no animals were mentioned (other than Honey.)

Im speaking of Honey the dog as a animal in generality. Lara is a major factor in his life I agree 100%. What makes you think she still isn't? Do you see her on this board? NO

[Politigal]

Im speaking of Honey the dog as a animal in generality. Lara is a major factor in his life I agree 100%. What makes you think she still isn't? Do you see her on this board? NO

I don't pretend to know what Lara thinks or does, but IMO she's probably a very private young woman, and is dealing with the loss of her dad in a private way. I think the board would be a painful place for her to be.

[J. J. in Phila]

I don't pretend to know what Lara thinks or does, but IMO she's probably a very private young woman, and is dealing with the loss of her dad in a private way. I think the board would be a painful place for her to be.

I noticed you didn't answer my question, so I will ask this one and answer it:

Would a father that loves his child want to put the child in the position where the child has to lie to the police? If he could help it, no.

If someone were to walkaway, would they tell someone who might be polygraphed? No, if they were smart.

[Cloudbuster]

I don't pretend to know what Lara thinks or does, but IMO she's probably a very private young woman, and is dealing with the loss of her dad in a private way. I think the board would be a painful place for her to be.

I agree it may be a painful place but perhaps not? Pgal Im just trying to take a different look than foul play to see if it makes sense. Im glad you started this thread and I agree with d2d it is a great post!!! I want to put the 2 theories side by side and see what they look like with what we have.:unsure:

[Politigal]

I agree it may be a painful place but perhaps not? Pgal Im just trying to take a different look than foul play to see if it makes sense. Im glad you started this thread and I agree with d2d it is a great post!!! I want to put the 2 theories side by side and see what they look like with what we have.:unsure:

I understand..

I think you posted in the other thread that perhaps Gricar hung out at Wilkes-Barre, waiting on some funds....

But if he meticulously planned to walk away, don't you think he would have had $$ already available? It seems like having financial means to escape would have been #1 on his list.

And also, if he was smart enough to not contact Lara or involve her, why would he be stupid enough to stay in PA & hang out 75 miles away in Wilkes-Barre, bringing attention to himself by mucking it up about the Cleveland Indians in some bar?

[J. J. in Phila]

I agree it may be a painful place but perhaps not? Pgal Im just trying to take a different look than foul play to see if it makes sense. Im glad you started this thread and I agree with d2d it is a great post!!! I want to put the 2 theories side by side and see what they look like with what we have.:unsure:

Media market comes into play. He isn't in the main media market that covers either Centre or Union Counties, but he's close enough to get some of the stories. It's also connect with an international airport and numerous interstates.

[Cloudbuster]

Geez this story is worth the read. It sounds similiar to this case. In the story his wife finally declares him dead. They just don't know what happened?

Investigators say one of two things happened to Williams: He either walked away from his prosperous life and family or, more likely, was killed. But without a body or other hard evidence, they say, they can't make a criminal case.

"Originally it wasn't handled as a criminal investigation, and now we're trying to make up for that," said Jackson County Sheriff's Investigator Derrick Wester.

"We know we are all at a brick wall and are pounding our heads against it," Austin said. "It's really frustrating."

The vexing case for investigators is a cruel sentence of uncertainty for Williams' friends and family. Many remain haunted by unanswered questions.

http://tallahassee.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061215/NEWS01/102190004

[Cloudbuster]

I understand..

I think you posted in the other thread that perhaps Gricar hung out at Wilkes-Barre, waiting on some funds....

But if he meticulously planned to walk away, don't you think he would have had $$ already available? It seems like having financial means to escape would have been #1 on his list.

And also, if he was smart enough to not contact Lara or involve her, why would he be stupid enough to stay in PA & hang out 75 miles away in Wilkes-Barre, bringing attention to himself by mucking it up about the Cleveland Indians in some bar?

I know what your saying and I do agree. I just have to see how this evidence or lack of looks like side by side. I posted on Petes blog today my story of why Im here and how. I have always felt foul play and still do but I just am seeing how much goes with walk away and how it lines up. The guy who disappeared in Tallahassee is so similiar to this case but in a different way.

[Cloudbuster]

Media market comes into play. He isn't in the main media market that covers either Centre or Union Counties, but he's close enough to get some of the stories. It's also connect with an international airport and numerous interstates.


If Ray did walk away I can see that he would want to see what is going on in the investagation EXCEPT the bartender and anyone in the bar would also be watching the TV's and it's real possible at this point the ruin Rays walking away by noticing he is the guy on tv?:thumbdown:

[Politigal]

Geez this story is worth the read. It sounds similiar to this case. In the story his wife finally declares him dead. They just don't know what happened?

Investigators say one of two things happened to Williams: He either walked away from his prosperous life and family or, more likely, was killed. But without a body or other hard evidence, they say, they can't make a criminal case.

"Originally it wasn't handled as a criminal investigation, and now we're trying to make up for that," said Jackson County Sheriff's Investigator Derrick Wester.

"We know we are all at a brick wall and are pounding our heads against it," Austin said. "It's really frustrating."

The vexing case for investigators is a cruel sentence of uncertainty for Williams' friends and family. Many remain haunted by unanswered questions.

http://tallahassee.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061215/NEWS01/102190004

lots of similarities to Gricar's case there....especially the fact that it wasn't looked at as a criminal investigation in the beginning....

I found a newer article on the case:

http://tallahassee.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200771215002

and another:

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/w/williams_jerry.html

[J. J. in Phila]

If Ray did walk away I can see that he would want to see what is going on in the investagation EXCEPT the bartender and anyone in the bar would also be watching the TV's and it's real possible at this point the ruin Rays walking away by noticing he is the guy on tv?:thumbdown:

From what I'm guessing, it was a sports bar. It is not too likely that the would turn to the local, or national, news. He can pop in there, eat, maybe see just how big a story it is. Does someone walk up to him and say, "Hey, you look like guy they're looking for." He could just say, "No, I'm Joe Smith from Cleveland, on a business trip."

Keep this in mind, at the very least, someone who looked like RFG was in that bar, and nobody said that.

[J. J. in Phila]

lots of similarities to Gricar's case there....especially the fact that it wasn't looked at as a criminal investigation in the beginning....

I found a newer article on the case:

http://tallahassee.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200771215002

and another:

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/w/williams_jerry.html

I think this case is pretty much the opposite of the RFG case. Police assumed for months, if not years, that the victim had drowned and made no other attempt to find him.

In RFG's case, the police had reasonably solid evidence, we now know, that RFG was out of the area. They had it within 15 days of his disappearance. The evidence led out of Lewisburg, but some of it was not checked, or at least not reported to be checked.

[UndertheRadar]

:huh:

?????

Ok folks...riddle me this

*If* Gricar walked away from his life as he knew it...it would have to have been methodically & meticulously planned over a period of time. He would have planned for back-up transportation, $$$, clothing, a new identity, a travel route & destination, a place to live or stay, and it probably would have involved an accomplice.

He would be leaving behind the daughter, who by all accounts he dearly loved & was extremely close to.

He would be leaving behind his retirement that he worked over 20 yrs to amass.

He would be leaving behind his reputation & career, his other family, his friends, his abode, his clothing, his Mini Cooper (that was titled in Patty's name,) his antique collectibles, his family photographs & memorabilia, his degrees, and everything he owned.

And he would leave all this behind ....without one goodbye....without one note....without one clue....without any apparent remorse....

Yet...he worried so much & felt so guilty about not being able to let Patty Fornicola's *DOG* out to pee, that he decided to phone?????????????????????


No folks...it DOES NOT compute.


It's time to take off the rose colored glasses (or put down the scotch) & use some common sense.

IMO

I'm so glad you posted this, Pgal. I've been working myself on starting a thread with reasons I have trouble making sense of the "planned walkaway" theory.

The call regarding Honey as you describe it above is one of those reasons. It makes no sense that someone would be on the brink of putting his loved ones through pure torture and agony but take the risk of making a traceable call with the purpose of saying a) I won't be in to work this afternoon and b) I can't let the dog out at noon. If you don't care that you're going to break your beloved daughter's heart, you certainly aren't going to care whether the dog goes out at noon. And the "he can always call his daughter later after the heat is off" explanation is pure bunk. If he's thinking that way, why try to disappear at all? It's not much of a disappearing act if you're thinking you're going to contact loved ones later, and not very realistic if you're thinking "I'll tell Lara but ask her not to tell TG, CG, etc."

In my mind there are a few other questions, one regarding the call. Saying "I'm on 192" isn't very bright planning if you're a supposedly brilliant man who's spent years planning this. Yes, JJ, it makes much more sense to place the call from home, to say, "I'm leaving here in about an hour and probably won't be home at lunch to walk Honey. Can you do it?"

Then, by the time PF reports RG as missing, LE has NO idea where to start looking. That's going to keep them a lot busier than giving them a heads up. And it's going to be a lot less risky, especially if Bennett's supposed noon Saturday sighting is taken as gospel. That would mean LE missed stumbling into RG only by hours. What's he going to do then, say "I'm on my way home now," and blow years worth of planning?

The whole timing of the "planning" issue also makes very little sense. If as has been argued this was a plan years in the making (to gather funds), when did the planning begin? When he was with EG? When he was planning to divorce her? Okay, then why get involved with PF to the point of moving in with her and creating this whole soul mates forever stuff? That just makes walking away more complicated, and the funds he purportedly put into building a future with PF would have made more sense going into his walkaway plan, especially given the fact that he eventually chose to walk before getting his retirement monies. No one would have blinked an eye had he only dated PF or had he dated a number of women casually following his divorce from EG--much better planning if you're planning a walkaway.

If he began the plan after he got involved with PF, are we to believe he's really that far into the "cad zone," as S1 describes it, asking her to retire to travel with him, then hitting the bricks without her in his long term plan to take off and let everyone wonder what the heck happened to him?

[J. J. in Phila]

UTR, for heaven's sake, if you are planning to vanish, you don't tell people. You also don't put loved ones in the position of lying to the police. That is the first bit of illogic in your premise.

Now, let's take a look at the call, and assume it was faked. What does it do. Well, it established beyond doubt that the phone was in Brush Valley at 11:12 AM. We know where the phone ended up. It also gives LE a start point for the search. That start point is not near the car or the river

Assume that someone wanted to "make it look like suicide." Okay, why would you need to delay the finding of the car? Any time after the police are called, the car may be found. If the car is moved after the police are called, RFG probably didn't kill himself and then move the car.

So what does the call do, effectively. It gives LE a start point to search, about 30 miles away from where the car is really located. It delays the finding of the car. That doesn't help the scenario a bit, since PEF received the call and later was the one to report him missing. It delays the finding of the car only after the police are called.

It would help the scenario if the call was made after the phone passed through the dead zone or was in Lewisburg itself. It would make the discovery of the car sooner, in all probability.

Now, assume the call was not faked. Who benefits from the call from Brush Valley? RFG, if this is a walkaway. He knows that even after someone reports him missing, they are going to be looking 30 miles from where the car is really parked. Maybe LE will find the Mini, parked in a public place, ten minutes after he's reported missing, but if they don't find it immediately, LE will start searching at the point of last contact, 30 miles away.

RFG cannot control a few things in this scenario:

1. When he will be reported missing.

2. When LE will start the search.

3. When the Mini will be found.

He can attempt to buy some time by making a routine call from 30 miles away where he plans to dump the car. If that's what he did, it worked brilliantly.

PEF only controls one thing, when to report him missing. She could have easily delayed that until the early morning of 4/16. She can't control points #2 or #3. Neither can DZ control point #3, because he's not patrolling Lewisburg.

You couple this with PEF making the report 12 hours after last contact and the BPD issuing the APB quickly, and we can see the illogic of P'gal's and your premise.

[Politigal]

It's still my opinion that the Mini Cooper was already in Lewisburg when the call was placed...and who ever placed the call went to Lewisburg right after, and placed the cell phone in the car, via the passenger side door, hence the small amount of cigarette ash.

[J. J. in Phila]

It's still my opinion that the Mini Cooper was already in Lewisburg when the call was placed...and who ever placed the call went to Lewisburg right after, and placed the cell phone in the car, via the passenger side door, hence the small amount of cigarette ash.

That really is irrelevant to the spot where the call was placed and your opinion is outweighed by three witnesses that we know of.

[SuperKyle]

Ok, we really need to look at "REALITY" here and mix some common sense in with it. That is that sometimes completely rational people do completely irrational things. This kind of thing happens all of the time. No, really, ALL OF THE TIME.. Every day someone in America walks away from family and friends for what appears to be no reason whatsoever.

Just this past year in Ohio we had a man head to Texas on his anniversary. Just walked right up and away.

Here is one for you, no indication at all.
Jon R. Van ****
http://www.reintjes.us/missing_jon.htm

I've been in contact with his wife?? and it is now believed he is found and had just walked away.

People do this all the time, nothing new at all. The sad thing is the people left behind who have no idea why.

Sometimes it doesn't matter what you are walking away from.

Matthew Wilson....... ring a bell?

[SuperKyle]

Oh, and just one more thing I forgot to mention.

It has been clearly stated by many (multiple) people that Ray was not acting his normal self for some time before Tax day... If someone is not acting themselves it is normally a sign of duress or a something heavy on the mind. This almost always causes impulsive behaviour.

The call could have been one last moment where he was thinking of telling someone.

[J. J. in Phila]

SuperKyle, it does occur. Soon we'll see "explanations" from a certain quarter here of why it couldn't possibly happen in RFG's case and why it "has" to be murder.

[Cloudbuster]

lots of similarities to Gricar's case there....especially the fact that it wasn't looked at as a criminal investigation in the beginning....

I found a newer article on the case:

http://tallahassee.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200771215002

and another:

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/w/williams_jerry.html

Thanks Pgal!! I just read them. They didn't think it was foul play for a long time but now they seem to see it as foul play. If Bellefonte police or Mr Maderia feel badly they should also read the story so they can see how to turn the investagation around. :thumbsup:

[J. J. in Phila]

Thanks Pgal!! I just read them. They didn't think it was foul play for a long time but now they seem to see it as foul play. If Bellefonte police or Mr Maderia feel badly they should also read the story so they can see how to turn the investagation around. :thumbsup:

I disagree there.

They initially overlooked evidence that it was voluntary, Fenton's sighting, the Wilkes-Barre sighting, even the statements that RFG was "distraught." These things, in their totality, bubbled up to the surface well after the initial LE statements.

And then we have this from the 4/22/05 CDT:

Those close to Gricar have asked the media to stop speculating about the case, at least until more conclusive evidence is uncovered.

http://www.centrecounty.com/baldeagle/localnews/news.phtml

Even at that point, they were searching along Route 192, and the Susquehanna.

[Serendipitous1]

Apologies Politigal, et al. I was just getting caught up on these boards - returning from two weeks +/- in "God's Country", virtually no contact with civilization (it was great!) - and this thread title just seemed to beg for Goldsboro:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MSoHcxEk9s

[Politigal]

Apologies Politigal, et al. I was just getting caught up on these boards - returning from two weeks +/- in "God's Country", virtually no contact with civilization (it was great!) - and this thread title just seemed to beg for Goldsboro:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MSoHcxEk9s

lol...

leave it to you to find the perfect song

[day2day]

Im speaking of Honey the dog as a animal in generality. Lara is a major factor in his life I agree 100%. What makes you think she still isn't? Do you see her on this board? NO


So you think he cared MORE for PF's dog-than he did Lara? I really doubt THAT. And are you SO sure she isn't here?

[day2day]

It's still my opinion that the Mini Cooper was already in Lewisburg when the call was placed...and who ever placed the call went to Lewisburg right after, and placed the cell phone in the car, via the passenger side door, hence the small amount of cigarette ash.

I agree pgal. I don't believe that Mr. Gricar every placed that call. Juss part of the plan....:closedeyes:

[J. J. in Phila]

SuperKyle, it does occur. Soon we'll see "explanations" from a certain quarter here of why it couldn't possibly happen in RFG's case and why it "has" to be murder.

SuperKyle, these two posts illustrate that point.

So you think he cared MORE for PF's dog-than he did Lara? I really doubt THAT. And are you SO sure she isn't here?

I agree pgal. I don't believe that Mr. Gricar every placed that call. Juss part of the plan....:closedeyes:

They don't understand that RFG making the call serves another purpose than instructions about the dog.

[Cloudbuster]

So you think he cared MORE for PF's dog-than he did Lara? I really doubt THAT. And are you SO sure she isn't here?

day2day I Never said he cared more about Honey than he did Lara. I think you misunderstood me. It seems apparent he did care about Honey. It is also very apparent he loved his daughter very much. It's weird he cared enough about the dog to make peeing arrangments but yet nothing to even hint to PF that she should go on with her life? Is that because he didn't plan on walking?
Or is that just the way he is?
Thats what Im trying to figure out. I know the answer in my heart but Im just taking a look both ways.

[J. J. in Phila]

day2day I Never said he cared more about Honey than he did Lara. I think you misunderstood me. It seems apparent he did care about Honey. It is also very apparent he loved his daughter very much. It's weird he cared enough about the dog to make peeing arrangments but yet nothing to even hint to PF that she should go on with her life? Is that because he didn't plan on walking?
Or is that just the way he is?
Thats what Im trying to figure out. I know the answer in my heart but Im just taking a look both ways.

CB, we don't know the real purpose of why RFG made the call.

1. It was just a regular call about the dog. Something happened to him after that.

2. It was made so that LE would start looking for him 30 miles from where the Mini was found.


Lewisburg has cell phone service. RFG, or P'gal's fake RFG, could have made the call closer or in Lewisburg, probably before noon. When LE checked the records, they'd be lead to Lewisburg. Making it from Brush Valley leads LE to Lewisburg, 30 miles from where the car was found. It would give him some extra time while LE is trying to find the Mini. If "P'gal's fake caller" wanted to "make it look like suicide" he called from Lewisburg, leading them straight to the Mini.

[day2day]

day2day I Never said he cared more about Honey than he did Lara. I think you misunderstood me. It seems apparent he did care about Honey. It is also very apparent he loved his daughter very much. It's weird he cared enough about the dog to make peeing arrangments but yet nothing to even hint to PF that she should go on with her life? Is that because he didn't plan on walking?
Or is that just the way he is?
Thats what Im trying to figure out. I know the answer in my heart but Im just taking a look both ways.

Im SO sorry CB..i did misunderstand. I juss can't see if he was goin to vanish that he would give a rats arse about her dog and NOT call his only child. It doesn't make sense-any of it. ..

[day2day]

SuperKyle, these two posts illustrate that point.





They don't understand that RFG making the call serves another purpose than instructions about the dog.


I don't think there is ANY proof he MADE that call...And JJ..the "they" thing is gettin WAY old here. WE have a right to our opinions...and YOU aren't goin to stop us from voicing them. :tonguewag:

[Cloudbuster]

CB, we don't know the real purpose of why RFG made the call.

1. It was just a regular call about the dog. Something happened to him after that.

2. It was made so that LE would start looking for him 30 miles from where the Mini was found.


Lewisburg has cell phone service. RFG, or P'gal's fake RFG, could have made the call closer or in Lewisburg, probably before noon. When LE checked the records, they'd be lead to Lewisburg. Making it from Brush Valley leads LE to Lewisburg, 30 miles from where the car was found. It would give him some extra time while LE is trying to find the Mini. If "P'gal's fake caller" wanted to "make it look like suicide" he called from Lewisburg, leading them straight to the Mini.

Why call at all if you already made up your mind to walk? The car would be found eventually without the call but would take longer perhaps to find it. Ray called at 11:30 in some reports so why would Honey need to go out at say 12ish? Was the call a call for help hoping PF would question too why Honey needed out so soon? If so Ray wasn't alone seems he tried warning her that something was wrong. Did PF question this too about the half hour difference on Honey?

[J. J. in Phila]

I don't think there is ANY proof he MADE that call...And JJ..the "they" thing is gettin WAY old here. WE have a right to our opinions...and YOU aren't goin to stop us from voicing them. :tonguewag:

You are entitled to you own opionins, but not your own facts.

:tonguewag:

You are also responsible for your own opinions.

Now, there is absolutely no question that the call was made from RFG's cell phone, the cell tower that carried the cell call, and where the tower was placed. Those are facts.

One thing that the call and tower does is that gave LE a place to start looking, about 25-30 miles away from where the phone was found, in the Mini. That is the effect the call had on the search.

IF the call was faked, "to make it look like suicide," it does not make sense to make the call from where it was found, because it was made at such a distance.

What the call did, intentionally or not, is delay the finding of the Mini. The Mini, however, had no evidence of foul play in it. So why do that.

[Politigal]

I don't think there is ANY proof he MADE that call...snipped


You are correct.

There is no evidence to prove who actually made the call or who actually drove the Mini Cooper to Lewisburg. (that the public is aware of)

Those are the facts.

[UndertheRadar]

JJ, re your post #24:

You couldn't even have read my post which you're responding to, since your response isn't even tangentially tied to what I had to say. Yet there you go, ripping my supposed "premises" to shreds when what you cite weren't even my premises.

But lo and behold, you've certainly managed to drag PF and faked calls into the mix, when I haven't said a word about such (and certainly didn't even have PF in mind in any way, except as reporter of RG having gone missing).

Oops, he did it again! :thumbdown:

[UndertheRadar]

Ok, we really need to look at "REALITY" here and mix some common sense in with it. That is that sometimes completely rational people do completely irrational things. This kind of thing happens all of the time. No, really, ALL OF THE TIME.. Every day someone in America walks away from family and friends for what appears to be no reason whatsoever.


Kyle, there's no doubt that people who appear rational do irrational things. In walkaway cases, though, when the full story comes out, typically it turns out there's some problem (money problems, romantic escape, escape from unhappy romance, escape from white collar crime, etc.) that prompted the walkaway. If it turns out that RG is a walkaway, one of those reasons could be the case. Not my prime theory for a variety of reasons, but something that's impossible to rule out.

My problem is with the "planned walkaway for the heck of it" theory, the one that's designed purely for selfish reasons ("I just want to start over with a new life for the heck of it"; "I want to become a legend in my own mind").

It's difficult enough to reconcile the man described by his ex-wife as a man of the highest integrity, as someone for whom his daughter was the most precious thing in his life with a man who would say, "Who gives a fig about my loved ones and whatever agony they'll suffer? My selfish needs to start over without them knowing where I am or whether I'm dead or alive take precedence over their emotional well-being." The counter-arguments that Lara is adult and "provided for financially" have never been convincing on that score.

What's even more difficult to reconcile is this: that having decided to go through with such a plan, this man of highest integrity and compassion (as per a colleague of nearly 20 years) would chose to stage his disappearance from a location that would without a doubt mirror the scene of his own brother's suicide, literally forcing his beloved nephews to re-live the agony of nine years prior.

I've asked JJ several times in the past, never getting a response, so now I'll ask you: can you find a single case of planned walkaway by a person of good character where there had been a prior case of disappearance in the family? So that the person walking away knew he/she was deliberately replicating that kind of agony for the family?

[J. J. in Phila]

UTR, your question was answered years ago. Mel Wiley and Jay Carsey. Both responsible, both holding senior positions. Both left. No mental breakdown.

[J. J. in Phila]

UTR, the premise on this thread has been that the call was faked. Now, if you say that that you think the real, I will be happy to apologize and agree with you.

Now, the second issue.

If RFG walked away, he could have been planning to call LG in the afternoon of 4/16/05 (EDT). By that time, she's on a flight to PA.

RFG would not be able to know these things:

1. What PEF would do when he doesn't come home or when she will do it. When he went to Cleveland game, nobody reported him missing. He could have thought the same thing would happen.

2. What the police will do. He doesn't know that, even if PEF calls the BPD on 4/15. they won't say, "Call back in 36 hours."

3. What LG will do. She could say, "Okay, maybe he's just at the Indians game" or "Maybe he's just needed to get away for the weekend; I'll just wait until Monday."

He gets wind of the reports that he's now the subject of a manhunt and can't contact LG, he may decide just to wait until after the investigation. He'd be "out of contact" for the weekend, under that plan.

[day2day]

You are entitled to you own opionins, but not your own facts.

:tonguewag:

You are also responsible for your own opinions.

Now, there is absolutely no question that the call was made from RFG's cell phone, the cell tower that carried the cell call, and where the tower was placed. Those are facts.

One thing that the call and tower does is that gave LE a place to start looking, about 25-30 miles away from where the phone was found, in the Mini. That is the effect the call had on the search.

IF the call was faked, "to make it look like suicide," it does not make sense to make the call from where it was found, because it was made at such a distance.

What the call did, intentionally or not, is delay the finding of the Mini. The Mini, however, had no evidence of foul play in it. So why do that.

The fact. A call was placed from HIS cell. Period. End of facts as we know them.

Has anyone ever asked where TF was on 4/15? Or did they just not BOTHER?

jmo

[J. J. in Phila]

The fact. A call was placed from HIS cell. Period. End of facts as we know them.

Has anyone ever asked where TF was on 4/15? Or did they just not BOTHER?

jmo

We know what tower carried the call and where the phone ended up. That itself is a clue.

Yes, TG mentioned it top P'gal; TF was working.

Now, if wanted someone to think that RFG made the call and then committed suicide, where would place the call from.

A. 30 or so miles from the river.

B. Near the river.

Multiple choice.

[Politigal]

The fact. A call was placed from HIS cell. Period. End of facts as we know them.

Has anyone ever asked where TF was on 4/15? Or did they just not BOTHER?

jmo

IIRC, Tony said that Tom Fornicola worked nights

[J. J. in Phila]

IIRC, Tony said that Tom Fornicola worked nights

It was previously mentioned that he worked shifts.

[Politigal]

Kyle, there's no doubt that people who appear rational do irrational things. In walkaway cases, though, when the full story comes out, typically it turns out there's some problem (money problems, romantic escape, escape from unhappy romance, escape from white collar crime, etc.) that prompted the walkaway. If it turns out that RG is a walkaway, one of those reasons could be the case. Not my prime theory for a variety of reasons, but something that's impossible to rule out.

My problem is with the "planned walkaway for the heck of it" theory, the one that's designed purely for selfish reasons ("I just want to start over with a new life for the heck of it"; "I want to become a legend in my own mind").

It's difficult enough to reconcile the man described by his ex-wife as a man of the highest integrity, as someone for whom his daughter was the most precious thing in his life with a man who would say, "Who gives a fig about my loved ones and whatever agony they'll suffer? My selfish needs to start over without them knowing where I am or whether I'm dead or alive take precedence over their emotional well-being." The counter-arguments that Lara is adult and "provided for financially" have never been convincing on that score.

What's even more difficult to reconcile is this: that having decided to go through with such a plan, this man of highest integrity and compassion (as per a colleague of nearly 20 years) would chose to stage his disappearance from a location that would without a doubt mirror the scene of his own brother's suicide, literally forcing his beloved nephews to re-live the agony of nine years prior.

I've asked JJ several times in the past, never getting a response, so now I'll ask you: can you find a single case of planned walkaway by a person of good character where there had been a prior case of disappearance in the family? So that the person walking away knew he/she was deliberately replicating that kind of agony for the family?

Excellent post UTR....and even Tony has said that Gricar had *no reason* to walk away.

[J. J. in Phila]

Excellent post UTR....and even Tony has said that Gricar had *no reason* to walk away.

And UTR's question has been answered, repeatedly. Two examples that have been sighted: College president Jay Carsey and police chief Mel Wiley.

There have been numerous reference to Mel Wiley in the press:

http://www.centredaily.com/news/ray_gricar/story/426195.html

A whole section on it in JKA's Googlepages:

http://gricar.disappearance.googlepages.com/partiii:onlinediscussion

And mentioned in PB's last blog:

http://community.centredaily.com/?q=node/6507

Kind of hard to claim that an example doesn't exist, if you actually are paying attention.

[SuperKyle]

Kyle, there's no doubt that people who appear rational do irrational things. In walkaway cases, though, when the full story comes out, typically it turns out there's some problem (money problems, romantic escape, escape from unhappy romance, escape from white collar crime, etc.) that prompted the walkaway. If it turns out that RG is a walkaway, one of those reasons could be the case. Not my prime theory for a variety of reasons, but something that's impossible to rule out.

My problem is with the "planned walkaway for the heck of it" theory, the one that's designed purely for selfish reasons ("I just want to start over with a new life for the heck of it"; "I want to become a legend in my own mind").

It's difficult enough to reconcile the man described by his ex-wife as a man of the highest integrity, as someone for whom his daughter was the most precious thing in his life with a man who would say, "Who gives a fig about my loved ones and whatever agony they'll suffer? My selfish needs to start over without them knowing where I am or whether I'm dead or alive take precedence over their emotional well-being." The counter-arguments that Lara is adult and "provided for financially" have never been convincing on that score.

What's even more difficult to reconcile is this: that having decided to go through with such a plan, this man of highest integrity and compassion (as per a colleague of nearly 20 years) would chose to stage his disappearance from a location that would without a doubt mirror the scene of his own brother's suicide, literally forcing his beloved nephews to re-live the agony of nine years prior.

I've asked JJ several times in the past, never getting a response, so now I'll ask you: can you find a single case of planned walkaway by a person of good character where there had been a prior case of disappearance in the family? So that the person walking away knew he/she was deliberately replicating that kind of agony for the family?

You raise a very good thought there, and I can see then that you would definitely be under the "murder scenario" category, which I flip to from time to time.

I cannot think of an example you ask for. I mean, I've never looked at anything like this extensively so I can't say for sure.

But I have always heard that "suicide can run in families". I don't know if that is true or not. Does anyone?
If that is true then I would say sometimes, when something is bothering you so much, you don't really care about anything or anyone else.

Which brings me to your other point, which was excellent; that we find out after that fact what led the person to leave. That is just it, I certainly couldn't find a reason for Ray to leave. I can come up with some theories but nothing concrete that is for sure.

Hey, can you come up with a list of possible motives for PF? That might help...

[Politigal]

As far as possible PF motives...

domestic spats can involve a whole myriad of reasons --

jealousy, third party involvement, insecurity, break-ups, stress of impending retirement (Patty was much younger than RG,) job related problems, mental illness, etc. It's also possible there is a separate life ins policy.

[J. J. in Phila]

You raise a very good thought there, and I can see then that you would definitely be under the "murder scenario" category, which I flip to from time to time.

I cannot think of an example you ask for. I mean, I've never looked at anything like this extensively so I can't say for sure.



There were two, when the question came up a few years ago. Julian "Jay" Carsey, and Mel Wiley.


But I have always heard that "suicide can run in families". I don't know if that is true or not. Does anyone?
If that is true then I would say sometimes, when something is bothering you so much, you don't really care about anything or anyone else.


Depression, which leads to suicide can, with the most famous example being the family of Ernest Hemingway. I think 3-4 members did.

RFG was not being treated for it.


Which brings me to your other point, which was excellent; that we find out after that fact what led the person to leave. That is just it, I certainly couldn't find a reason for Ray to leave. I can come up with some theories but nothing concrete that is for sure.


There are a couple of possibilities, but all are speculative. The data either isn't available or it's intensely personal. Short of a "Vulcan mind meld," we have to rely on other people's impressions on what RFG said and did.


Hey, can you come up with a list of possible motives for PF? That might help...

Again speculative, but a few things can be ruled out:

1. Money. PEF's financial position got substantially worse on 4/16/05, because RFG was helping with the household expenses. She cannot inherit, because, legally, RFG is alive.

2. Angry over a break up. We have Wedler's report from 4/14/05, where she called them a "cute couple." They were not arguing or having an intense discussion. I checked last night; there were, it looks like, six bread and breakfasts within a half mile of the Courthouse, plus the Bush Hotel (it's since burned down). No reported reservations, no credit card activities; by 9:00 PM, if RFG wasn't going to sleeping at PEF's, he should have been making arrangements to spend the night someplace. Also, no friends said, **Ray called and asked if could spend the night on my couch.**

Also, the Mini belonged to PEF, so renting, purchasing or borrowing a car would be possibility.

About the only thing that I came up with as even a possibility was an unplanned crime of passion in the heat of the moment, but that precludes any of the elaborate planning needed for most of the scenarios.

Yes, I thought of that, too.

[gstickley]

There were two, when the question came up a few years ago. Julian "Jay" Carsey, and Mel Wiley.

Did Carsey or Wiley have a daughter?

Depression, which leads to suicide can, with the most famous example being the family of Ernest Hemingway. I think 3-4 members did.

RFG was not being treated for it.

There are a couple of possibilities, but all are speculative. The data either isn't available or it's intensely personal. Short of a "Vulcan mind meld," we have to rely on other people's impressions on what RFG said and did.

Thought it was "tired" &/or "distraught".

Again speculative, but a few things can be ruled out:

1. Money. PEF's financial position got substantially worse on 4/16/05, because RFG was helping with the household expenses. She cannot inherit, because, legally, RFG is alive.

PF apparently got along financially prior to RG moving in with her. Now she didn't have a house payment & she had a new car, so finances should have been better for her. Cannot see how PF's "financial position got substantially worse" if she was surviving prior to RG.

2. Angry over a break up. We have Wedler's report from 4/14/05, where she called them a "cute couple." They were not arguing or having an intense discussion. I checked last night; there were, it looks like, six bread and breakfasts within a half mile of the Courthouse, plus the Bush Hotel (it's since burned down). No reported reservations, no credit card activities; by 9:00 PM, if RFG wasn't going to sleeping at PEF's, he should have been making arrangements to spend the night someplace. Also, no friends said, **Ray called and asked if could spend the night on my couch.**

Actually, RG's "friends" were never interviewed. Didn't Wedler question the way RG & PF "looked" in the park. She called them a "cute couple" but also noted appearances.

Also, the Mini belonged to PEF, so renting, purchasing or borrowing a car would be possibility.

Or calling a friend. One who was never interviewed.

About the only thing that I came up with as even a possibility was an unplanned crime of passion in the heat of the moment, but that precludes any of the elaborate planning needed for most of the scenarios.

Well, will wonders never cease! Seems to me the "crime of passion" has been discussed time & time again, only to be "dissed" as being next to impossible.
Yes, I thought of that, too.

(Bold by gstickley)

[SuperKyle]

Ok, I'm seeing some things better now. I can see why some people would be going after Mrs. Fornicla, but so far she has exhibited no classic signs of someone suspicious. She has been completely helpful in all ways possible. With that being said as well we have a pretty good witness for Ray being alive at 3:00 on Tax day.

To me, if someone is willing and able and ready to go for a polygraph, that doesn't necessarily rule them out. But, volunteering for and then passing a 3 and 1/2 hour polygraph just might.

Take for instance the case of Brian Shaffer whose "friend" Clint Florence will not go in for a polygraph. Randy (Brian's Dad - God Bless HIm) volunteered, as did Brian's girlfriend. But here we have someone (Clint) who is not cooperating and won't take a polygraph. There is a red flag. We just aren't getting those red flags from Patty.

Unless there is something I'm missing.

[Politigal]

Ok, I'm seeing some things better now. I can see why some people would be going after Mrs. Fornicla, but so far she has exhibited no classic signs of someone suspicious. She has been completely helpful in all ways possible. With that being said as well we have a pretty good witness for Ray being alive at 3:00 on Tax day.

To me, if someone is willing and able and ready to go for a polygraph, that doesn't necessarily rule them out. But, volunteering for and then passing a 3 and 1/2 hour polygraph just might.

snipped.

May I call you Pete? ( just kidding )

Perhaps Patty didn't act suspicious in your opinion, but several of her comments or version of events just don't make sense....You may need to study the history of the case a little more.

Also, in the beginning, the case was not looked at as a crime. There was no forensic investigation at her home. Police waited 3 months to administer the poly. Patty is the one who looked thru the home for Zaccagni (according to one news report.) Patty is the one who went upstairs to fetch the laptop. Patty's version of events is about all there is in this case...and much of it can't be corroborated by any other evidence.

[J. J. in Phila]

GS, Carsey had a wife, thought there were problems. Wiley had an aged mother.

Neither being tired or distraught are necessarily signs of depression; in this case both are other folk's impressions.

PEF took a lower paying job in January 2005 and, please keep in mind, her household income dropped, obviously.

I can almost guarantee that if RFG didn't show up at friend's house on 4/14/05, the friend would have contacted LE by 4/19.

[gstickley]

GS, Carsey had a wife, thought there were problems. Wiley had an aged mother.

Neither being tired or distraught are necessarily signs of depression; in this case both are other folk's impressions.

PEF took a lower paying job in January 2005 and, please keep in mind, her household income dropped, obviously.

I can almost guarantee that if RFG didn't show up at friend's house on 4/14/05, the friend would have contacted LE by 4/19.

JJ, there is no way you can "guarantee" this. You have no way of knowing who might have been "friends" with RG, other than the 2 who are widely reported. There are people who have "friends who will help you bury the body", I'm happy to say; you have even mentioned the famous "Porn Buddy" scenerio.

[J. J. in Phila]

May I call you Pete? ( just kidding )

Perhaps Patty didn't act suspicious in your opinion, but several of her comments or version of events just don't make sense....You may need to study the history of the case a little more.

Also, in the beginning, the case was not looked at as a crime. There was no forensic investigation at her home. Police waited 3 months to administer the poly. Patty is the one who looked thru the home for Zaccagni (according to one news report.) Patty is the one who went upstairs to fetch the laptop. Patty's version of events is about all there is in this case...and much of it can't be corroborated by any other evidence.

I'm not seeing what all waiting 3 months for the polygraph would have to do with anything. LG did not take it until September, 2005.

Obviously, PEF accompanied the police officers through the house, but they didn't have a warrant to search either; she voluntarily let them. PEF also was the one who told the police that RFG had a laptop.

The only versions of events where PEF's sole version events exists is what they were doing in the morning, when they were getting out of bed and preparing for the day. Now, except the person you happen to be sleeping next to, only very few people will be able to tell what happened.

Even the phone call has some documentation, it was clearly made from the Brush Valley area, because there is a record of the call. We also know where the phone ended up.

Superkyle, PEF was one of the people interviewed by the PSP, and the Trooper's comments mirror yours.

[SuperKyle]

May I call you Pete? ( just kidding )

Perhaps Patty didn't act suspicious in your opinion, but several of her comments or version of events just don't make sense....You may need to study the history of the case a little more.

Also, in the beginning, the case was not looked at as a crime. There was no forensic investigation at her home. Police waited 3 months to administer the poly. Patty is the one who looked thru the home for Zaccagni (according to one news report.) Patty is the one who went upstairs to fetch the laptop. Patty's version of events is about all there is in this case...and much of it can't be corroborated by any other evidence.

That is what I'm looking for...

"but several of her comments or version of events just don't make sense"

To start with, what comments don't make sense. Sorry to ask, but I'm trying to nail down for sure whether or not I think she had anything at all to do with it.

[Hbgchick]

Im speaking of Honey the dog as a animal in generality. Lara is a major factor in his life I agree 100%. What makes you think she still isn't? Do you see her on this board? NO

I'm with you Cloudbuster. Also on point about how some people are more attached to animals than people.

I think he IS still in her life, or at least she knows where he is.

[Politigal]

I'm with you Cloudbuster. Also on point about how some people are more attached to animals than people.

I think he IS still in her life, or at least she knows where he is.

So you think Lara knows where Gricar is...while saying to the media that she doesn't believe he's alive? and while Tony pleads for another agency to investigate....and while Barbara Gray also implores investigators to look deeper??? Do you think they're all just acting?

[J. J. in Phila]

So you think Lara knows where Gricar is...while saying to the media that she doesn't believe he's alive? and while Tony pleads for another agency to investigate....and while Barbara Gray also implores investigators to look deeper??? Do you think they're all just acting?

P'gal, I don't take a position that anybody knows the whereabouts of RFG, but if someone close him knows, that person might not tell anyone else. That statement could apply to anyone close to RFG.

[Hbgchick]

So you think Lara knows where Gricar is...while saying to the media that she doesn't believe he's alive? and while Tony pleads for another agency to investigate....and while Barbara Gray also implores investigators to look deeper??? Do you think they're all just acting?

You seem to see things in either black or white Politigal. I personally feel there are many shades in between.

I think it is very possible that she knows something that she is not sharing with the public, yes.

[gstickley]

You seem to see things in either black or white Politigal. I personally feel there are many shades in between.

I think it is very possible that she knows something that she is not sharing with the public, yes.

Why the "BIG SECRET"? RG isn't an escaped criminal who has to be hidden; as far as I know, he hasn't committed any crime. RG is an adult who can come & go as he pleases. Surely, there wasn't anything in his past from which he needed to "escape" this badly. So, why the "BIG SECRET". I would imagine that quite a bit of monies was expended in the very early days to try & locate RG, & he may be liable for that, but I doubt that is the reason for the "BIG SECRET". Even if he did "disappear" on 04/14/05, 3 yrs., 8 mos. have gone by; why the need for the "BIG SECRET" now??? All it would take would be a statement from LG of "RG is alive & well, leave him alone" for all this to go away.

That said, I still don't think RG would simply disappear from the face of the earth & leave his daughter behind, not knowing where or how he was; maybe he wouldn't care what the rest of the world thought. As a mother & grandmother, I don't think he would leave LG not knowing his whereabouts regardless of how old she was, how she was on the other side of the country, how much she could get along with her own life . . .

[Hbgchick]

The "BIG SECRET" could be as simple as someone being sick of their life and they don't want anyone from that life bothering them. It's possible that he communicated that to Lara.

[Chump#7]

Central PA will do that to some people. Heh.

[UndertheRadar]

JJ, re your posts #46 and #47:

#46: Sorry, but Wiley and Carsey don't answer my question. Neither had a family history where there had been a previous disappearance, and that's what I'm interested in, a situation where the one walking away knew he/she would be forcing the family to repeat an agony they'd previously experienced.

#47: My post had nothing to do with a faked call or with PF's involvement in any way.

[J. J. in Phila]

UTR, so far as I know there is not a genetic predisposition to walk away in the Gricar family, nor in general. There is a genetic predisposition for depression that leads to suicide, which was the question

People, responsible, sane people, in positions of responsibility, do walk away from their lives. They do it een when there is a family involved. I'm unaware of any claim for a genetic link.

Well, UTR, are you saying that you believe the call was from RFG?

[UndertheRadar]

I'm not saying there's a genetic predisposition to walkaway in the Gricar family. I'm saying that for ten days, Roy Gricar was missing before his body was discovered.

My first post in this thread was made with the presumption that a) RG did a planned walkaway and that b) RG made the call from the Brush Valley area. My post then went on to analyze the wisdom of that from a supposedly brilliant man taking several years to plan a brilliant walkaway.

[J. J. in Phila]

Okay, making those assumptions, UTR, Roy did not "disappear," from what I understand. He basically drove to the spot where he committed suicide, quite some distance, but I've never heard a report that he was out walking or moving the car.

His body was not recovered for, IIRC, about ten days. That's a bit different that saying he was out for ten days doing something.

While walkaway is now getting a lot of interest, I would note again that there is a vital piece of the puzzle missing, how did RFG get out of Lewisburg?

In terms of brilliance, if that is what happened, it was brilliant, because after nearly four years, we still don't have an answer.

(Now, the answer to that question might be "RFG didn't get out of Lewisburg." That's me being a Danish Prince again.)

[UndertheRadar]

JJ, for ten days, for those who loved Roy Gricar, he was a missing person. His family suffered the agony of having a missing loved one during those ten days. They suffered even greater agony when it became clear that he'd driven to a spot near a river and drowned himself.

If Ray Gricar carefully planned a walkaway with the SOS parking lot, near the river, as the drop off point for the Mini-Cooper, he would have to know Roy's suicide would be the first thing in TG and CG's mind when that car was found. As indeed it was. He would have to know he would deliberately force his family to re-live what they went through when Roy was missing and subsequently found dead.

That's the kind of example I'm looking for, not simply a Wiley or Carsey example. We all know cases like Wiley and Carsey exist, as I've told you before when you've tried to use them as answers to this question. I'm looking for a "second generation" walkaway, so to speak, a decent human being, one of the "highest integrity," who deliberately inflicts pain on his family by repeating a disappearance in a family where there's a history of a missing person prior to this newer, planned walkaway. I have found none, and I've searched.

And yes, maybe RG didn't get out of Lewisburg. We have no objective, verifiable evidence he was ever there and can only say that maybe he was, maybe he wasn't.

[J. J. in Phila]

UTR, whether or not Roy Gricar was thought of as a missing person, we now know where his body was and what happened to him.

UTR, since the person usually stays missing, it would be hard to know. We do know in Carsey's case, after he turned up, he went missing again.

In terms of the argument **He wouldn't put his family through this** kinds of flies in the face of those families genetically predisposed toward suicide.

We do have objective evidence, his scent was in the parking lot. There is also direct evidence, witnesses. I think it's up to nine now.

[Politigal]

I don't think there is ANY proof he MADE that call...And JJ..the "they" thing is gettin WAY old here. WE have a right to our opinions...and YOU aren't goin to stop us from voicing them. :tonguewag:

There is no proof he made the call...no proof he drove the car....no proof he did anything after working late Thursday night.

[J. J. in Phila]

There is no proof he made the call...no proof he drove the car....no proof he did anything after working late Thursday night.

Just nine witnesses that we know of that put RFG in Lewisburg after Thursday. Four that we know of put him in the Mini in Lewisburg after Thursday.

That doesn't mean that he was the last person to drive the Mini, but there is evidence that puts him in Lewisburg no only after Noon on 4/15/05, but after 5:00 PM on 4/15/05.

And as for evidence of murder, someone said:

"And true, there's no concrete evidence of murder,... "

http://community.centredaily.com/?q=node/6459

We have evidence that RFG was alive and well after 5:00 PM on 4/15/05, driving the Mini; we have no evidence, at all, of murder.

I still think it is a very good possibility that RFG was murdered, but not before 6:00 PM on 4/15/05. Now that eliminates a number of options.

[day2day]

There is no proof he made the call...no proof he drove the car....no proof he did anything after working late Thursday night.

Exactly. Just walked outta his office and vanished from the face of the earth. Unbelievable.

[J. J. in Phila]

Exactly. Just walked outta his office and vanished from the face of the earth. Unbelievable.

According to same article cited:

"But by noon Saturday, he just seems to have fallen off the earth.”

That is a quote from Zaccagni.

http://www.freetimes.com/stories/13/30/the-rivers-edge-homicide-suicide-hoax-a-prosecutor-vanishes-and-the-clues-point-everywhere-and-nowhere-at-oncethe-rivers-edge

[Politigal]

Exactly. Just walked outta his office and vanished from the face of the earth. Unbelievable.

I still think it's possible that he & Patty went somewhere Thurs night.

[J. J. in Phila]

I still think it's possible that he & Patty went somewhere Thurs night.

And? That doesn't make a heck of a lot difference when all the witnesses seen him Friday afternoon in Lewisburg.

It's like Wedler's sighting. At best it establishes the demeanor between RFG and PEF on 4/14/05. Strolling in a park, holding hands, and looking like a "perfect couple" doesn't evoke images of homicide.

So far, no one has reported seeing them arguing or even having an intense conversation.

[Cloudbuster]

You seem to see things in either black or white Politigal. I personally feel there are many shades in between.

I think it is very possible that she knows something that she is not sharing with the public, yes.


I have said that before too. I don't think those close to RG may know what she NOW knows. It really is possible be never left her completly.
She don't seem to say too much or complain when things get botched or missed or changed? If it was my dad which it isn't I'd be freakin but thats me and she has TG as a spokeperson I guess.

[Politigal]

[/B]


I have said that before too. I don't think those close to RG may know what she NOW knows. It really is possible be never left her completly.
She don't seem to say too much or complain when things get botched or missed or changed? If it was my dad which it isn't I'd be freakin but thats me and she has TG as a spokeperson I guess.

Since Lara's mother is still calling for investigators to take a closer look at the case I really doubt that Lara has been in contact with Gricar. I would think that Lara is also very close to her mother, and especially close since Gricar vanished...and I sincerely doubt that *if* she had spoken to Gricar that she would have kept that from her Mom. I have to believe that this educated, well-bred intelligent family would not be so deceitful. I also feel that if by chance Gricar was alive, that he wouldn't have waited 3 yrs to contact his daughter. And I still question what reason would Gricar have had to walkaway in the first place?

[Cloudbuster]

I do see what your saying. Sadly though what if he was running from a relationship he didn't want to just tell her because he knew it would cause her alot of pain? Maybe PF wanted marriage and RG didn't? Would it be easier for him to just let her think he died? In some ways yes. This way she wouldn't feel rejection. That saying "sometimes it easier if a person is presumed dead than to go thru a divorce situation" I hear that alot. Also what if retirement was now bothering him? It would be easier to leave the job earlier. Also what if RG was having problems with Co workers now that he was retiring? Meaning they wasn't listening to him as much as they would have given he is 8 months away from retirement. When my boss made his retirement date official we didn't jump like we did before. He finally stopped leaving us his wonderful posty notes lol. He also stopped watching over us like a slave driver. You could actually see depression on his face at times.

[J. J. in Phila]

Hypothetically, what makes you think that she would tell her mother. There can be loyalty to a parent, singular. It could be a need to know situation.

Also, before we put LG into this grand conspiracy of silence, let's see if there is any evidence that RFG walked away first.

I'll regard what is in LG's brain as unknown or unknowable.

[Cloudbuster]

Since Lara's mother is still calling for investigators to take a closer look at the case I really doubt that Lara has been in contact with Gricar. I would think that Lara is also very close to her mother, and especially close since Gricar vanished...and I sincerely doubt that *if* she had spoken to Gricar that she would have kept that from her Mom. I have to believe that this educated, well-bred intelligent family would not be so deceitful. I also feel that if by chance Gricar was alive, that he wouldn't have waited 3 yrs to contact his daughter. And I still question what reason would Gricar have had to walkaway in the first place?

I don't think the family is deceitful at all. If Lara was notified by Ray Im sure it would be after the polygraph. We don't know if he has contacted Lara but if he did Im sure TG and her mom and other family members are in the dark. If he did contact her we don't know what he may have told her.

[J. J. in Phila]

I sure as heck kept stuff from my parents, if it comes right down to it. ;)

Still, before we state the massive walkaway conspiracy, can we see if there is any evidence that RFG actually walked away.

(Now I'll be accused of defending LG by some posters, no doubt.)

[UndertheRadar]

JJ, re your post #76:

Okay, I see what you're saying.

1. You have no examples of anyone of good character with a family history where there's a disappearance planning a subsequent disappearance. That's cool. I can't find one either.

2. You somehow, unbelievably, still offer scent as objective evidence that RG was in Lewisburg. That must mean either

a) you claim to know more than the FBI scent experts, scent theory scientists, and veteran dog tracking expert witnesses

b) you've seen the dog handlers' report, and there is evidence that the dogs picked up RG's scent in a place both away from where the Mini was parked and where a witness said he/she saw someone resembling RG. This would mean nowhere near the parking lot, for instance, inside the SOS where witnesses claimed to see someone resembling RG with the MW or

c) you've been made aware of other objective evidence that RG was in Lewisburg (video, receipts, etc.).

3. You offer witnesses as direct evidence of RG being in Lewisburg, yet task forces designed to study eyewitness testimony say that eyewitness identification is wrong so often that it can never be used to build a case minus objective evidence.

Regarding #2, can you tell us whether it is a, b, or c?

Regarding #3, can you tell us what objective evidence you have?

TIA.

[J. J. in Phila]

UTR, I'm saying that Roy Gricar was not a case of disappearance. He didn't intend to disappear; he intended to kill himself.

Now, do people in same family kill themselves? There is a genetic predisposition in some families for depression that leads to suicide. Is there a genetic predisposition for people to walk away. Not that I know of. Did anyone else in the Gricar family ever walk away? Not that I know of.


Now, You claim to know more that a trial court and LE since scent evidence is admissible (and was in your favorite case).

In this case, there is both physical evidence and direct eyewitness evidence that RFG was in the parking lot.

I find it hugely interesting the amount of effort you've used to try to explain why the evidence doesn't really show anything, while I've been suggesting looking for new evidence.

[UndertheRadar]

Let's get one thing straight, JJ.

My approach with any and all evidence in this case has been to look at it scientifically, to research it thoroughly, to ask what is scientifically possible. I believe that only then can theories be developed or conclusions be drawn. We're handicapped in doing that, because we have only what has been released publicly, and some of what has been released publicly has turned out to be patently false. But that approach, for me, is a darn sight better than just guessing or just making things up to a) fit a theory that's already being pursued or b) keep others from pursuing a theory.

As a result, I have a scientifically sound basis for understanding that, based on what is publicly known, the available scent evidence tells us nothing about whether Ray Gricar was in Lewisburg. It tells us that he might have been, but he might not have been.

What I would like to do is have you stop pretending you have greater knowledge than all the experts in scent theory, accept this scientific given, so that we could then move on to discuss what that "might have been, might not have been" might mean. It is such a waste of time to have to keep after your constant falsehoods about the scent evidence. It's no different than if you constantly posted "2+2=5" and tried to build a theory of the case from that. The fact is that 2+2=4, and the fact is that the scent evidence as it has been presented publicly tells us nothing about whether or not RG was actually in Lewisburg.

As for scent evidence being admissible in court, you are correct--but it is admissible only under certain very specific and limited parameters, and as the FBI counsels, it can never form primary evidence for a case.

You are on ice that is just as thin with your claims about eyewitness identification. I see you pulling things out of thin air to use as criteria for evaluating eyewitness sighting credibility, but I see no indication you have basis for your claims or any real understanding of what you're claiming.

When you're ready to stop making things up ("Cadaver dogs certainly can't tell a dead body from a live one!" "None of the witnesses in the LP case were from her neighborhood!" "Two witnesses make the sighting identification more credible!" "Police officers' sightings are more credible identifications!"), I'm up for a discussion/debate based on accurate facts and real science.

[J. J. in Phila]

UTR, I question your science.

In the case of Roy Gricar, while his body wasn't found, he didn't intentionally walk away, which is a possibility in RFG's case.

I do know of one member of the Gricar that did walk away voluntarily, however. RFG beyond question, when he was with the second Mrs. Gricar. The Cleveland trip. If this was going to so traumatize his family, and his then wife, why didn't it then? The difference is, he came back.

Now, you've mentioned science; I strongly suspect that you confuse you own opinions with the word "science." Now, as you've pointed out, scent evidence has been established as being reliable enough to be used as evidence in court. It does not found the primary evidence in this case, but it supports what the witnesses say.

Returning to the witnesses, you've made some claims, so I'll ask again:

I would like to see the links where 4 eyewitnesses, of the same race as the observed person, wrongly identified the same person, in the same car, at the same place, at the same time.

Is it 1%, 30,000 cases; 0.1%, 3,000 cases; 0.01%, 300 cases; 0.001%, 30 cases; 0.0001%, 3 cases; or is it 0.000000%, no cases?

TIA

[UndertheRadar]

Aargh, JJ. You want to drive me to an early grave, don't you?? :mad:

It's not my science, and I really doubt you have the credentials to "question" the science that comes from the FBI scent experts, the scent theory experts, and the veteran dog handlers that I've posted here for more than two years.

Repeating a previous post:

Just because a search dog picked up Laci Peterson's scent at the marina where her husband, Scott, launched his fishing boat does not mean she was there, a dog handler testified Wednesday at the fertilizer salesman's capital trial.

Ron Seitz, a veteran handler who works for law enforcement agencies but was called as a witness by the defense, said that, if the mother-to-be routinely rode in her husband's pickup truck, her scent could have been transferred from the vehicle's interior to the grounds of Berkeley Marina when her husband opened the truck door.

"Is it possible that her scent would be at the marina even if she never was there?" defense lawyer Mark Geragos asked.

"That is very possible," Seitz said. Pressed further about such a "false trail," he referred to the scenario as "very probable."



Bolding mine.

http://www.courttv.com/trials/peterson/102004-pm_ctv.html

The scent evidence in the RG case does NOT support what the witnesses say, at least as far as what is publicly available. SHOW US the dog handlers' report, JJ. Show us evidence that the dogs picked up RG's scent in an area away from the parking lot where where a witness also placed RG. That is the only way the dogs can corroborate a witness sighting, since the parking lot scent could be there without RG ever being there.

[J. J. in Phila]

First of all UTR,, you better send a letter to the authorities in CA and tell them to release Scott Peterson. The jury doesn't agree with you.

Second, yes it does corroborate the witnesses. Unlike the Peterson case, there was not only a trail, but witnesses. :rolleyes:

[UndertheRadar]

JJ, when I first posted Ron Seitz' testimony, I pointed out why Geragos was using him, i.e., to try to prove that Laci had never been at the marina, and that in Laci's case, that was a huge stretch since it was abundantly obvious that her dead corpse had shown up in the bay.

I also pointed out that Seitz' scent theory was entirely sound. It remains so. Peterson wasn't convicted because Seitz wasn't accurate in his testimony, and you are fully aware of that. :rolleyes:

Second, you're full of bunk regarding the trail (see Dixon) unless you can SHOW US the dog handlers' report contradicting everything that's been published. You've got no scent away from where the car is but where witnesses spotted "RG," thus no corroboration.

[J. J. in Phila]

Here we go again. :rolleyes: The published reports say that there was a trail and the handler said it looked like he got into another car. That is what was reported at the time. He wis just one example:

http://home.att.net/~carla.baron/missing.html

I belive it was the Altoona Mirror story.

Next!

[UndertheRadar]

Next? You gotta be kidding. You give me a link with two stories, neither of which contains the word "trail" and only one of which mentions the scenting in the SOS parking lot--and that only to refer to the dogs circling as if RG got into another car, i.e, certainly not following any trail.


"Bellefonte Police Chief Duane Dixon said a bloodhound brought to the antiques store's parking lot in Lewisburg picked up no trail."


http://www.usenetpolitics.com/showthread.php?t=226085

Again, SHOW US the handlers' report if you have something to contradict Chief Dixon.

[J. J. in Phila]

UTR, P'gal just produced fur reports of the trail:

Once again....for clarity

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:-0hlMP4957sJ:skepdic.com/refuge/funk46.html+gricar+dogs+circling&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a
Bellefonte police officer Darrel Zaccagni said that details such as "the cigarette ash on the floor and the search dogs circling as if Gricar got into a vehicle, were pre-reported,


http://community.centredaily.com/?q=node/6426
On April 17, scent dogs were brought in and only detected his scent in the parking lot.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12756052/
They also used a bloodhound—but the dog lost Gricar’s scent 20 yards from the car.
The tracker suggested Gricar got into another vehicle, perhaps with his killer.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7592249/
Dixon said Thursday that a police dog that sniffed around the parking lot where Gricar’s car was found acted in a way that “possibly could have meant that Ray might have gotten into another vehicle.” He also revealed that Gricar’s laptop cannot be found.



http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:0HElUSPkgX0J:www.websleuths.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-39539.html+gricar+police+dog&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=13&gl=us&client=firefox-a
"After the car was found by a passing state trooper, police dogs were brought to the parking lot but lost the scent very close to the car. According to Bellefonte police Officer Darrel Zaccagni, one of the K-9 handlers said that could mean Gricar got into another car. "

If you want the report, call the BPD.

[Politigal]

Next? You gotta be kidding. You give me a link with two stories, neither of which contains the word "trail" and only one of which mentions the scenting in the SOS parking lot--and that only to refer to the dogs circling as if RG got into another car, i.e, certainly not following any trail.



http://www.usenetpolitics.com/showthread.php?t=226085

Again, SHOW US the handlers' report if you have something to contradict Chief Dixon.

Yep Dixon said no trail.

Zaccagni said the dog/s circled.

[J. J. in Phila]

Yep Dixon said no trail.

Zaccagni said the dog/s circled.



Dixon said Thursday that a police dog that sniffed around the parking lot where Gricar’s car was found acted in a way that “possibly could have meant that Ray might have gotten into another vehicle.” He also revealed that Gricar’s laptop cannot be found.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7592249/

You just quoted this in one of your posts. You are spinning so much even you are confused beyond belief.:lol:

[gstickley]

Yep Dixon said no trail.

Zaccagni said the dog/s circled.

Nowwwwwwww, how did RG & MW happen to be seen inside the SoS???? Oh, yeah, one of the "8-10 probably more" witnesses in Lewisburg. Anddddddddddd, what about RG seen sitting on the bench??? Oh, yeah, one of the "8-10 probably more" witnesses in Lewisburg. Andddddd, what about RG "witnessed" standing outside the SOS like he was waiting for someone????? Oh yeah, one of the "8-10 probably more" witnesses in Lewisburg. :laugh:

[Politigal]

Nowwwwwwww, how did RG & MW happen to be seen inside the SoS???? Oh, yeah, one of the "8-10 probably more" witnesses in Lewisburg. Anddddddddddd, what about RG seen sitting on the bench??? Oh, yeah, one of the "8-10 probably more" witnesses in Lewisburg. Andddddd, what about RG "witnessed" standing outside the SOS like he was waiting for someone????? Oh yeah, one of the "8-10 probably more" witnesses in Lewisburg. :laugh:

We're supposed to believe that the dogs "trailed" RG's scent thru the parking lot...

but the dogs were too dumb to find his scent just across the street or at the park.

I guess Gricar had wings?

[J. J. in Phila]

Nowwwwwwww, how did RG & MW happen to be seen inside the SoS???? Oh, yeah, one of the "8-10 probably more" witnesses in Lewisburg. Anddddddddddd, what about RG seen sitting on the bench??? Oh, yeah, one of the "8-10 probably more" witnesses in Lewisburg. Andddddd, what about RG "witnessed" standing outside the SOS like he was waiting for someone????? Oh yeah, one of the "8-10 probably more" witnesses in Lewisburg. :laugh:

No, actually that isn't any of the witnesses that saw him in the Mini on 4/15/05.

The witness who saw him standing is the store owner TG found "credible." That isn't one of the witnesses that saw him in the Mini either.

His name is Alvey, the Remember When owner. He'd be the fifth witness to see RFG between 5:00 PM and 7:00 PM, but RFG wasn't in the car.

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2005/04/04-21-05tdc/04-21-05dnews-10.asp

[J. J. in Phila]

We're supposed to believe that the dogs "trailed" RG's scent thru the parking lot...

but the dogs were too dumb to find his scent just across the street or at the park.

I guess Gricar had wings?


Or scents fade over time and due to conditions on the ground. That could have been the last place RFG was.

[gstickley]

We're supposed to believe that the dogs "trailed" RG's scent thru the parking lot...

but the dogs were too dumb to find his scent just across the street or at the park.

I guess Gricar had wings?

Where ya been, Pgal.???? "Someone in the know" suggested Fox Mulder from the "X-Files" might have arrived & seen RG beamed up into the mother ship. (While he probably was joking, ya just never know!) :tonguewag:

[gstickley]

No, actually that isn't any of the witnesses that saw him in the Mini on 4/15/05.

The witness who saw him standing is the store owner TG found "credible." That isn't one of the witnesses that saw him in the Mini either.

His name is Alvey, the Remember When owner. He'd be the fifth witness to see RFG between 5:00 PM and 7:00 PM, but RFG wasn't in the car.

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2005/04/04-21-05tdc/04-21-05dnews-10.asp

Hey, Man, "they" were included in your "8-10 probably more" Lewisburg witnesses!!!!! Just trying to keep up here. Ya keep accusing me of not reading, but I definitely remember reading this---time & time & time & time & time & time & time again!!!

[J. J. in Phila]

Hey, Man, "they" were included in your "8-10 probably more" Lewisburg witnesses!!!!! Just trying to keep up here. Ya keep accusing me of not reading, but I definitely remember reading this---time & time & time & time & time & time & time again!!!

9-10, the put RFG alive after Noon on 4/15/05. 4-5 that put RFG in the Mini in Lewisburg between 5:30-6:30 PM on that day. The additional witness puts him about 30 yards from the car in the evening.

Try to keep track; I've actually posted a list with updates.

[J. J. in Phila]

Where ya been, Pgal.???? "Someone in the know" suggested Fox Mulder from the "X-Files" might have arrived & seen RG beamed up into the mother ship. (While he probably was joking, ya just never know!) :tonguewag:

No, just a comment on the caliber of some of the theories.

[gstickley]

Or scents fade over time and due to conditions on the ground. That could have been the last place RFG was.

Where ya been, Pgal.? Don't ya remember? It rained all around the perimeter of the parking lot & that faded the scent & that's why the dogs couldn't find (godforbid I should use the word "trail") the scent anyplace except around the Mini because the Mini must have had a huge umbrella over it so the scent would stay within 20 yards of it & the rain wouldn't fade the scent away because RG wanted to keep everyone guessin' cause he wanted everyone to know he was in Lewisburg but he didn't want anyone to know where he was but he wanted to leave a little somethin' of himself behind when he escaped into the wild blue yonder for whenever anyone found the car they'd know he was in Lewisburg & that's why he used the umbrella so the scent would stay near the car. Why do ya keep gettin' it wrong, Pgal.? Don't ya read, Pgal.? Don't ya comprehend, Pgal.? Why are ya the only one twistin' & turnin', Pgal.? Why. . . (oooh heck, Pgal., that's me!!! Sorry 'bout that!) :tonguewag:

[gstickley]

9-10, the put RFG alive after Noon on 4/15/05. 4-5 that put RFG in the Mini in Lewisburg between 5:30-6:30 PM on that day. The additional witness puts him about 30 yards from the car in the evening.

Try to keep track; I've actually posted a list with updates.

Woe is me! I didn't see the updated list. 30 yards??? I thought the dogs only went 20 yards away from the car.

[gstickley]

Woe is me! I didn't see the updated list. 30 yards??? I thought the dogs only went 20 yards away from the car.

Hey, Man!!!! I know why I thought the dog only went 20 yards away from the car. It was a post by you, JJ, at 6:57 pm today on "The Dogs" thread! Yep, JJ, right there in black & white, 20 yards; actually I think it was in bold too. Right there on "The Dogs" thread at 6:57 PM today! And you think I don't read your posts, you silly boy!!! :biggrinjester:

[Politigal]

Where ya been, Pgal.???? "Someone in the know" suggested Fox Mulder from the "X-Files" might have arrived & seen RG beamed up into the mother ship. (While he probably was joking, ya just never know!) :tonguewag:

That's about as believable....

[day2day]

Aargh, JJ. You want to drive me to an early grave, don't you?? :mad:

It's not my science, and I really doubt you have the credentials to "question" the science that comes from the FBI scent experts, the scent theory experts, and the veteran dog handlers that I've posted here for more than two years.




UTR
Next someone will say you invented the internet....:tonguewag:

Sorry-i couldn't resist!!

[gstickley]

That's about as believable....

You got it, Twisted Sister! :rolleyes:

[day2day]

Hey, Man!!!! I know why I thought the dog only went 20 yards away from the car. It was a post by you, JJ, at 6:57 pm today on "The Dogs" thread! Yep, JJ, right there in black & white, 20 yards; actually I think it was in bold too. Right there on "The Dogs" thread at 6:57 PM today! And you think I don't read your posts, you silly boy!!! :biggrinjester:


(checks the moon)..NOPE not full yet!! Nice to see you "back"...:tonguewag:

[J. J. in Phila]

Hey, Man!!!! I know why I thought the dog only went 20 yards away from the car. It was a post by you, JJ, at 6:57 pm today on "The Dogs" thread! Yep, JJ, right there in black & white, 20 yards; actually I think it was in bold too. Right there on "The Dogs" thread at 6:57 PM today! And you think I don't read your posts, you silly boy!!! :biggrinjester:

Sorry, it was a typo, like the time you said TG was terrible and you meant TC.

More spinning from GSstickley and P'gal, with no substance.

The Spin Sisters are here. :rolleyes:

[Politigal]

Woe is me! I didn't see the updated list. 30 yards??? I thought the dogs only went 20 yards away from the car.

broadjump? :laugh:

[J. J. in Phila]

UTR
Next someone will say you invented the internet....:tonguewag:

Sorry-i couldn't resist!!


I thought UTR minvented it since she claims to understand how all the witnesses are wrong and that she's an expert on scent trails.

[J. J. in Phila]

My favorite "typo of the night" is this:

Once again....for clarity

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:-0hlMP4957sJ:skepdic.com/refuge/funk46.html+gricar+dogs+circling&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a
Bellefonte police officer Darrel Zaccagni said that details such as "the cigarette ash on the floor and the search dogs circling as if Gricar got into a vehicle, were pre-reported,


http://community.centredaily.com/?q=node/6426
On April 17, scent dogs were brought in and only detected his scent in the parking lot.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12756052/
They also used a bloodhound—but the dog lost Gricar’s scent 20 yards from the car.
The tracker suggested Gricar got into another vehicle, perhaps with his killer.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7592249/
Dixon said Thursday that a police dog that sniffed around the parking lot where Gricar’s car was found acted in a way that “possibly could have meant that Ray might have gotten into another vehicle.” He also revealed that Gricar’s laptop cannot be found.



http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:0HElUSPkgX0J:www.websleuths.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-39539.html+gricar+police+dog&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=13&gl=us&client=firefox-a
"After the car was found by a passing state trooper, police dogs were brought to the parking lot but lost the scent very close to the car. According to Bellefonte police Officer Darrel Zaccagni, one of the K-9 handlers said that could mean Gricar got into another car. "

Followed by this

Yep Dixon said no trail.

Zaccagni said the dog/s circled.


{Bolding added}

I miss one number and P'gal misses an entire paragraph, that she cited. Typo?

[Hbgchick]

Since Lara's mother is still calling for investigators to take a closer look at the case I really doubt that Lara has been in contact with Gricar. I would think that Lara is also very close to her mother, and especially close since Gricar vanished...and I sincerely doubt that *if* she had spoken to Gricar that she would have kept that from her Mom. I have to believe that this educated, well-bred intelligent family would not be so deceitful. I also feel that if by chance Gricar was alive, that he wouldn't have waited 3 yrs to contact his daughter. And I still question what reason would Gricar have had to walkaway in the first place?

And that is just what I'm talking about. You have NO IDEA what Lara thinks, what her mother thinks, or how close Lara is to her mother, yet you're sure that A.) RG has not been in touch with Lara, B.) Lara would certainly tell her mother if he had been C.) they are "intelligent and well-bred" so therefore not deceitful and D.) RG would not wait three years to contact Lara if he did not already.

"Intelligent, well-bred" families are often MORE deceitful then their less intelligent counterparts simply because of their intelligence.

[Politigal]

And that is just what I'm talking about. You have NO IDEA what Lara thinks, what her mother thinks, or how close Lara is to her mother, yet you're sure that A.) RG has not been in touch with Lara, B.) Lara would certainly tell her mother if he had been C.) they are "intelligent and well-bred" so therefore not deceitful and D.) RG would not wait three years to contact Lara if he did not already.

"Intelligent, well-bred" families are often MORE deceitful then their less intelligent counterparts simply because of their intelligence.

This is what I'm talking about.....

I was merely expressing an *opinion*...

Now get off your pulpit. I'd swear you must be related to Sherrijean.

[Hbgchick]

This is what I'm talking about.....

I was merely expressing an *opinion*...

Now get off your pulpit. I'd swear you must be related to Sherrijean.

Roflmao. Well, that's the first and last time I try to reason with you. Lol.

[Politigal]

Roflmao. Well, that's the first and last time I try to reason with you. Lol.

You *weren't* trying to "reason" with me. You were preaching.

bye

[Hbgchick]

You *weren't* trying to "reason" with me. You were preaching.

bye

:laugh: Oh that's too much. Lolol. I simply point out what YOU said; but I'M preaching. Oooooo kay. Lol. Must be nice to be so all-knowing. :laugh:

[Politigal]

:laugh: Oh that's too much. Lolol. I simply point out what YOU said; but I'M preaching. Oooooo kay. Lol. Must be nice to be so all-knowing. :laugh:

Sorry, you're wrong. You did not point out what I said.

You posted that I was "so sure"....

And that's not what I wrote.

I wrote --

"I really doubt"

"I would think"

"I have to believe"


Comprende?

[J. J. in Phila]

You *weren't* trying to "reason" with me. You were preaching.

bye

No, P'gal, Hbgchick was being accurate.

Now, unless you've used used your telepathic ability to probe LG's mind, you don't know what LG does or doesn't know. :rolleyes:

Hbgchick doesn't know, I don't know, and neither do you.

Could anyone close to RFG be willing to protect a secret he told them, one that isn't criminal in the least? Sure.

Now, that said, I'm fairly sure LG did not know what happened to RFG when she took the polygraph and that she was not the "helper," because of the distances involved.

[Hbgchick]

I suddenly have this weird sense of deja vu. Like I'm back in high school. Weird.

[Politigal]

I suddenly have this weird sense of deja vu. Like I'm back in high school. Weird.

The fact is...you twisted my words. I never wrote that I was "so sure."

I merely posted my opinion.

And the reason you probably feel like you're in High school is because you have a *cheerleader* at your back. :w00t:

[Hbgchick]

And the reason you probably feel like you're in High school is because you have a *cheerleader* at your back. :w00t:

I totally don't get that. Am I supposed to know what that means?

[J. J. in Phila]

The fact is...you twisted my words. I never wrote that I was "so sure."

I merely posted my opinion.

And the reason you probably feel like you're in High school is because you have a *cheerleader* at your back. :w00t:

Cheer leading is hat you do.

Hbgchick and I are looking at facts and realizing what we cannot know.

BTW, you must have a very low opinion of LG if you think she wouldn't be willing, hypothetically, to protect her father's secrets.

[UndertheRadar]

Oh good grief.

Most who have been here regularly since JJ joined in September 2006 know that it is JJ who is always so sure of what he posts, whether it's totally made up or not.

Some of my favorite memories are JJ's claims of what PF said on the phone to her brother, what was said and done in PF and RG's bedroom, what transpired when RG bought the Mini-Cooper, etc. GS and Pgal will remember how JJ was hiding under the couch, in the closet, under the desk at the car dealership . . .

I'm sure GS will never forget the great TracFone debates and JJ's continued claims that TracFones didn't exist in 2005, even when we presented him with evidence from the company itself of the millions of customers they had in 2005.

And nothing is more infuriating than how JJ can twist information from links, which is why I don't provide them for him anymore.

Well, maybe one thing is more infuriating: he'll claim he never said something, when six posts back in black and white is the exact claim he says he never made.

Nope, folks, those of us who have been here all along are all too familiar with JJ's M.O. "Open-minded" isn't exactly the term I'd use to describe him.

[UndertheRadar]

UTR
Next someone will say you invented the internet....:tonguewag:

Sorry-i couldn't resist!!

LOL, Day. No doubt. But I'd hate to steal AlGore's thunder . . .

[Hbgchick]

I don't really have an opinion on JJ, don't know the man. Since I HAVE been here since the beginning and HAVE read many, many posts (again, not all, as I mentioned...when it gets to that back and forth "I said/you said" crap I tune out); from what I've seen everyone has had different opinions of what could have happened over the 3+ years we've been discussing the case.

Also, I have checked in often even though I don't post. I don't post because I no longer have the time to devote to Ray Gricar theories 24/7. Wish I did!

My point is simply this. NOBODY KNOWS what happened to Ray Gricar. Obviously, if we did, we wouldn't be here. However, Politigal sure does make it a point to make sure to tell JJ every chance she gets that he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Ah well, I don't care. This BS is why I don't pay that much attention to this board any more. People have gone from actually discussing possible scenarios to just trying to one-up each other and shoot down each other's theories. There is clear personal animosity which, as we all know (well....as we all SHOULD know anyway), ruins productive discussion every time.

[J. J. in Phila]

Let's see, UTR, in the past 12 hours, you've claimed, on your own to know how easy it is for dogs trail someone from a scent. No links, just you.

We have P'gal claiming to know what's inside LG's mind, even though LG's never said what's in her mind in public, P'gal's never talked to her. Nothing, no links, no knowledge of LG, just P'gal.

[gstickley]

What are TracFones?
Where would you purchase a TracFone in Centre Co.
When were TracFones available in Centre Co.?
Would you still get an odor of a decomposing body if it was buried under concrete?

Gawd, I wish the old posts were still available. Because the "expert" on the above (regardless of links, personal knowledge, etc., posted to prove same) is still pulling the same stunts with the witnesses, dog tracking/trailing. Expert in everything, no one else knows anything.

Remember Arnold; the pigsty is getting more stinkin' & mucky all the time!!

[J. J. in Phila]

What are TracFones?
Where would you purchase a TracFone in Centre Co.
When were TracFones available in Centre Co.?
Would you still get an odor of a decomposing body if it was buried under concrete?

Gawd, I wish the old posts were still available. Because the "expert" on the above (regardless of links, personal knowledge, etc., posted to prove same) is still pulling the same stunts with the witnesses, dog tracking/trailing. Expert in everything, no one else knows anything.

Remember Arnold; the pigsty is getting more stinkin' & mucky all the time!!

GS, I'm still not sure that they could have been purchased locally, in Bellefonte, at night. SJ has one, and yes, they service provider knew her address.

Now, you came up with a rather bizarre theory that had PEF and someone else, presumably RFG's clone, trying to mastermind a murder in a half an hour, a completely bloodless one, that had no motive, except that someone said they looked like a "perfect couple." Oh yes, GStickley, I remember that one, very well. :rolleyes: I think one version had PEF calling her girlfriends up and asking, **Hey, why don't you help me kill my boyfriend the DA tonight.** :rolleyes:

I do remember the impact of Karen's KourtTV Konspiracy Theory as well. (The real impact was that people started talking to me.) ;)

[J. J. in Phila]

I wonder if JKA regrets saying that I have "amazing knowledge for a disabled guy living in Philly." :biggrinjester:

[gstickley]

GS, I'm still not sure that they could have been purchased locally, in Bellefonte, at night. SJ has one, and yes, they service provider knew her address.

Ya know, Arnold, I'm not surprised one bit that you'd "still" question it. Even with evidence provided to prove you're wrong, you still can't accept the fact that many times YOU ARE WRONG!

Now, you came up with a rather bizarre theory that had PEF and someone else, presumably RFG's clone, trying to mastermind a murder in a half an hour, a completely bloodless one, that had no motive, except that someone said they looked like a "perfect couple." Oh yes, GStickley, I remember that one, very well. :rolleyes: I think one version had PEF calling her girlfriends up and asking, **Hey, why don't you help me kill my boyfriend the DA tonight.** :rolleyes:

Yep, the ole "Crime of Passion" scenerio. Believe you also mentioned a "crime of passion" a day or so ago. It's as good a scenerio as the one of yours about RG sitting around for 10 yrs. or so planning the perfect escape. (BTW, my scenerio didn't have PF asking for help to kill her boyfriend; it had to do with her asking for help in getting rid of the body.)

I do remember the impact of Karen's KourtTV Konspiracy Theory as well. (The real impact was that people started talking to me.) ;)

I'm so glad you were finally able to make friends. Did you find one who would "help you bury the body" yet? If not, then you should keep looking.



(Bolding by gstickley, "The Queen of Nastiness")

[gstickley]

I wonder if JKA regrets saying that I have "amazing knowledge for a disabled guy living in Philly." :biggrinjester:

Why doncha call her & ask her????? Or send her an e-mail? :biggrinjester:

[UndertheRadar]

What are TracFones?
Where would you purchase a TracFone in Centre Co.
When were TracFones available in Centre Co.?
Would you still get an odor of a decomposing body if it was buried under concrete?

Gawd, I wish the old posts were still available. Because the "expert" on the above (regardless of links, personal knowledge, etc., posted to prove same) is still pulling the same stunts with the witnesses, dog tracking/trailing. Expert in everything, no one else knows anything.

Remember Arnold; the pigsty is getting more stinkin' & mucky all the time!!

Oh, gosh, GS, I'd forgotten the Great Concrete Debacle. Thanks for the memories! Wiping out those old posts was a crime in in itself. :biggrin:

[gstickley]

Oh, gosh, GS, I'd forgotten the Great Concrete Debacle. Thanks for the memories! Wiping out those old posts was a crime in in itself. :biggrin:

Yep, OF is still laughing about that one!!!!!

[J. J. in Phila]

Why doncha call her & ask her????? Or send her an e-mail? :biggrinjester:

She seems to get very nervous the one time I called; her e-mail doesn't work. Wonder why she got so nervous and very defensive? Interesting.

And she seemed to be very quiet, not even attending the duelinng press conferences over the Summer.

[Cinderella]

I just bought a tracfone, but I am not considering using it for anything sinister. :wink:

J.J. You can call me anytime, I love your sexy voice. Maybe when KA heard your voice, she got weak.

[J. J. in Phila]

I just bought a trac phone, but I am not considering using it for anything sinister. :wink:

J.J. You can call me anytime, I love your sexy voice. Maybe when KA heard your voice, she got weak.

JKA was weak well before that. :biggrinjester:

The problems with the Trac Fone is availability in 2005, in Bellefonte, after 9:30 PM.

I can't imagine PEF, or anyone else, coming up with a bloodless, bodiless, murder, with Mini's being driven 50+ miles in the dead of night, RFG lookalikes, a scent trail being planted, Trak Fones purchased, all in three hours.

Not to mention PEF going from being part of a "perfect couple" to homicidal maniac in four hours and then showing up for work the next day.

I'm waiting for the animated corpse argument. ;)

[Serendipitous1]

Oh, gosh, GS, I'd forgotten the Great Concrete Debacle. Thanks for the memories! Wiping out those old posts was a crime in in itself. :biggrin:That is disappointing. But there is plenty of material left, and new stuff being added every day, for future mystery novel series (ala "Solomon vs. Lord").

[ladyheartfixer]

I just bought a tracfone, but I am not considering using it for anything sinister. :wink:

J.J. You can call me anytime, I love your sexy voice. Maybe when KA heard your voice, she got weak.


well...just my 2 cents..I also have a tracfone and I use it when I don't want to give out my private numbers...and I don't know about JJ having a sexy voice ( haven't had the pleasure Cindy :rolleyes:) but.....has anyone noticed how JJ throws us a small piece of info and PB watches how we respond so he has something to throw into his blog when things get slow? ...like being used as a guinea pig? I for one have mixed feelings about the way we are led by the nose to certain bits and pieces and scenarios....makes one wonder if this entire deception is led by someone who knows something and wants to divert attention when anyone gets close.

[J. J. in Phila]

well...just my 2 cents..I also have a tracfone and I use it when I don't want to give out my private numbers...and I don't know about JJ having a sexy voice ( haven't had the pleasure Cindy :rolleyes:) but.....has anyone noticed how JJ throws us a small piece of info and PB watches how we respond so he has something to throw into his blog when things get slow? ...like being used as a guinea pig? I for one have mixed feelings about the way we are led by the nose to certain bits and pieces and scenarios....makes one wonder if this entire deception is led by someone who knows something and wants to divert attention when anyone gets close.

Not really. Some of the things that were raised, McKnight's witness for example and RFG's desire to get rid of data on the laptop. I knew about that when I read the story.

Somethings PB puts a great deal of emphasis on that I don't, e.g. the book on Smith's desk, the Lake Raystown sighting (I still have not fit that in), the moving of the Mini in the parking lot, and RFG's desire to get rid of data on the laptop. Until this week, PB was substantially more friendly to MM than I have been (to the point of telling S1 that he was targeting the wrong politician).

Now, had I heard a rumor, a while back, that one of the Wilkes-Barre witnesses was LE? Yes. Did I have accurate information on who he was? No, it was somewhat garbled in the retelling. Did I have some questions about the sighting that I'd raise with other witnesses, i.e. was he drinking after duty, was there a possibility of racial misidentification, was he experienced. Yes. Were those answered? Yes. Was PB my source for those answers? No. :)

Now, keep something else in mind. PB noted:

It was an In Session board poster who came up with name of Mel Wiley. He asked me about it, prompting me to ask Gricar's close friend whether the prosecutor ever mentioned the missing police chief from Ohio.

It turns out, Gricar had brought up Wiley seemingly out of nowhere years ago.

http://community.centredaily.com/?q=node/6507

It is not always from PB.

Also keep something else in mind. I do hear rumors, but many of those could be debunked, and were. You don't see those. I try to be bit more certain before I post things.

I just hope to be able to ask the right question.

[gstickley]

well...just my 2 cents..I also have a tracfone and I use it when I don't want to give out my private numbers...and I don't know about JJ having a sexy voice ( haven't had the pleasure Cindy :rolleyes:) but.....has anyone noticed how JJ throws us a small piece of info and PB watches how we respond so he has something to throw into his blog when things get slow? ...like being used as a guinea pig? I for one have mixed feelings about the way we are led by the nose to certain bits and pieces and scenarios....makes one wonder if this entire deception is led by someone who knows something and wants to divert attention when anyone gets close.

Make that 2 of us, LHF.

[J. J. in Phila]

Make that 2 of us, LHF.

GStickley, to paraphrase BillyWahoo, if you knew how wrong you were, you would not only swallow your mouse, but you'd need a high colonic to remove it. :rolleyes:

[Politigal]

Make that 2 of us, LHF.

IMO, it's odd that Bosak would start a Gricar blog in the first place. Why not discuss the case here with the rest of us...

Maybe he just can't handle the debate? After all, his opinions are no more grounded than ours.

[J. J. in Phila]

IMO, it's odd that Bosak would start a Gricar blog in the first place. Why not discuss the case here with the rest of us...

Maybe he just can't handle the debate? After all, his opinions are no more grounded than ours.


No, he just doesn't like fiction. He's also the only local reporter covering it in depth.

[UndertheRadar]

Make that 2 of us, LHF.

Make that three, GS and LHF. I have wanted to post some things about PB's strategies for a while now.

[Cloudbuster]

Ya know alot have looked at PF because she is the SO. Yet we have a MW sighting. Has it occurred that PF might not be the only SO? RG was not married but in a live in relationship. If LE deemed that -that's not possible then why did they question JKA early on about if she had any knowledge of a possible MW that happened to be a friend of JKA (and she smokes)? Seems like they knew early on that PF may not be the only SO. Also PF didn't smoke and was at work. Just wondering why PF seems like the only SO?

[J. J. in Phila]

Make that three, GS and LHF. I have wanted to post some things about PB's strategies for a while now.

More of the conspiracy theory I see. :rolleyes:

[Cloudbuster]

Another oddity is JKA is a friend of who they thought might be the MW. Can a friend be used to try to persuade RG why he should endorse another? In other words did the friend put on the heat for her friend?

[J. J. in Phila]

Ya know alot have looked at PF because she is the SO. Yet we have a MW sighting. Has it occurred that PF might not be the only SO? RG was not married but in a live in relationship. If LE deemed that -that's not possible then why did they question JKA early on about if she had any knowledge of a possible MW that happened to be a friend of JKA (and she smokes)? Seems like they knew early on that PF may not be the only SO. Also PF didn't smoke and was at work. Just wondering why PF seems like the only SO?

DZ, according to Renner's piece, though RFG was in Lewisburg on 4/16/05. Now, in all fairness, RFG did "vanish" once before and not call home, the Indian's game; he came back.

http://www.freetimes.com/stories/13/30/the-rivers-edge-homicide-suicide-hoax-a-prosecutor-vanishes-and-the-clues-point-everywhere-and-nowhere-at-oncethe-rivers-edge

Now, RFG was in Lewisburg on 4/15, but there is is a pretty big gap, about 5 hours. Assuming Fenton is wrong, what was he doing for five hours.

After that, what was he doing between 6:30 PM and the late morning of 4/16/05.

Buehner suggested checking motels for the woman.

Another woman? It would be hard, living and working with PEF. That goes back to the "Inner Circle."

[gstickley]

Ya know alot have looked at PF because she is the SO. Yet we have a MW sighting. Has it occurred that PF might not be the only SO? RG was not married but in a live in relationship. If LE deemed that -that's not possible then why did they question JKA early on about if she had any knowledge of a possible MW that happened to be a friend of JKA (and she smokes)? Seems like they knew early on that PF may not be the only SO. Also PF didn't smoke and was at work. Just wondering why PF seems like the only SO?

Yep, it occurred to several of us a year or so ago. Remember the MW "sighting" that LE didn't publicize until after a year after RG's disappearance? The same MW that they didn't have enough description of to have a sketch made? The same MW that they supposedly knew about/had enough description to check her out (don't know if this was a friend of KA or not & don't know if she smokes).

Also, remember the Tyrone MW, where the owners of the shop, after LE finally put out information on a possible MW, reported that RG (whom they personally knew) had been in their shop prior to his disappearance with a woman fitting the MW's description & stating that the MW was not PF. Of course, PF said it was her, even though though the MW was described as having hair the length of Sara James's & being tall (every picture I've seen of PF shows her with short hair & being very short/petite).

Also, I'm sure you remember the statements made by DZ that, upon hearing of RG's disappearance & the cigarette ashes being found in the car, though RG had just 'gone away to think things through' (or words to that effect) & would have to answer to PF when he returned (or words to that effect).

You might possibly also remember the reports of RG 'taking off on his own from time to time' (or words to that effect) made by several individuals shortly after his disappearance.

Yep, CB, I sincerely hope RG did have a MW, even more than one!

[Serendipitous1]

No, he just doesn't like fiction. He's also the only local reporter covering it in depth.Since leaving Centre County, PB has provided a lot of new information...things that he, for whatever reason, felt he could not publish as a reporter for the CDT. I thank him for the new information, however untimely it is, but I would certainly prefer that he keep his distance from this forum. Unfortunately, through his chosen surrogate, he has not done so.

[J. J. in Phila]

Since leaving Centre County, PB has provided a lot of new information...things that he, for whatever reason, felt he could not publish as a reporter for the CDT. I thank him for the new information, however untimely it is, but I would certainly prefer that he keep his distance from this forum. Unfortunately, through his chosen surrogate, he has not done so.

You make a couple of assumptions.

First that he had the information.

Second, that we picked up on it. We didn't (I'm part of "we.").

Third, that I am his "surrogate," I am not.

Fourth, that he is my only source of information; he is not.

Fifth, that we agree on everything. We don't. I respect him, I think he's a good journalist, but I don't agree with him a lot of the time.

[Serendipitous1]

You make a couple of assumptions.

First that he had the information.

Second, that we picked up on it. We didn't (I'm part of "we.").

Third, that I am his "surrogate," I am not.

Fourth, that he is my only source of information; he is not.

Fifth, that we agree on everything. We don't. I respect him, I think he's a good journalist, but I don't agree with him a lot of the time.So you say (have said).

[J. J. in Phila]

So you say (have said).

Oh, please S1, You should know that. I've been substantially more critical of MM. I've thought that explanation for RFG moving the car could be pigeons, not in order to attract attention. The book? Someone checked and either forgot or wouldn't admit to it. Lake Raystown? I don't have an opinion on where that fits in. Asking about erasing the laptop drive? His credit card numbers might have been saved (though I find the timing a bit unusual).

[Serendipitous1]

Oh, please S1, You should know that. I've been substantially more critical of MM. I've thought that explanation for RFG moving the car could be pigeons, not in order to attract attention. The book? Someone checked and either forgot or wouldn't admit to it. Lake Raystown? I don't have an opinion on where that fits in. Asking about erasing the laptop drive? His credit card numbers might have been saved (though I find the timing a bit unusual).Well then...you have a quirky way of wondering, not at all like the rest of this "motley crew".

[Cinderella]

For once J.J., let us put your tracphones to rest. Walmart on the Benner Pick has always been open 24 hours a day. It was open then. So please let this issue on finding a tracphone close.

:cursing:

[J. J. in Phila]

For once J.J., let us put your tracphones to rest. Walmart on the Benner Pick has always been open 24 hours a day. It was open then. So please let this issue on finding a tracphone close.

:cursing:


Now, but did they in 2005?

I know that checked one store that UTR suggested one could have been purchased, a Walmart I think. It was opened until after RFG disappeared.

It's a bit like a wireless connection for the laptop. They are more usual now, but less common in 2005.

It's more of a red herring in an attempt to explain away the evidence.

[Chump#7]

For once J.J., let us put your tracphones to rest. Walmart on the Benner Pick has always been open 24 hours a day. It was open then. So please let this issue on finding a tracphone close.

:cursing:

Seriously. You guys were actually arguing this?????

1.) I bought a dial up modem at the Benner Pike Wal Mart in an emergency one day in 1999. It was open in 2005.

2.) My brother bought a TracPhone there in at least 2003 if not earlier. They were like on every freaking end cap. They were a more economical alternative to rural types back then...

[gstickley]

Seriously. You guys were actually arguing this?????

1.) I bought a dial up modem at the Benner Pike Wal Mart in an emergency one day in 1999. It was open in 2005.

2.) My brother bought a TracPhone there in at least 2003 if not earlier. They were like on every freaking end cap. They were a more economical alternative to rural types back then...

For days & days & pages & pages . . . :tonguewag: