Michelle Fisher Young murder: Dec. 5/08 >>

[Kat4Eagles]

There was nothing Linda could do. Now that Jason has been named Michelle's SLAYER, she has a chance at getting some type of custody.



Thats's taking some big chances with someone's life though.

I am glad everyone was so convinced that nothing would
happen to her.

Kat

[Lindsey]

There are photos of the meds with a dropper on shelfs in C's room.

Let me see what page.

Kat
Anna, go to WRAL.
Go to the s/w for C Young, DNA
It is 14 pages
On Pages 6-8 are the pics.

Shortcut To SW (http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local/2008/12/05/4083976/1228503955-20081205131342180.pdf)

[annalyzer]

Shortcut To SW (http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local/2008/12/05/4083976/1228503955-20081205131342180.pdf)


Thanks Kat and Lindsey

[Kat4Eagles]

Kat, it was not a lack of concern. Its a custody issue. Jason, until Friday, was not a suspect in Michelle's murder. Nothing Linda could have done could have helped her to gain custody of Cassidy.


Not for one moment can I believe that.

If a report could be released to help get her awarded her civil suit, could it not do the same to help her in making sure her
granddaughter's well being and safety were assured , even if it meant removing her from Jason?

How cruel is it going to be to take her away from the Youngs, if this happens now?

Her heart is going to be broken , if her Father is indeed arrested.
Her whole world is going to be turned upside down, just like when
she lost her Mother..


C should have come.......


First .
Before anything else.
C is more important than anything we have talked about here
for the last 2 years.

Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

Shortcut To SW (http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local/2008/12/05/4083976/1228503955-20081205131342180.pdf)


Thanx Lin,

I meant to thank CW for reopening the Board too.

And, to thank all our Board experts about the will and stuff.

:)

Kat

[Lindsey]

IF LF did file some type of custody thing (or even visitation) now, wouldn't she have to do it in the county where Jason and Cassidy now live? She wouldn't be dealing with the same officials there that she has dealt with in Wake County. I wonder if this would be to her advantage or disadvantage. If she had done so two years ago, it might would have been different.

IMO

[Kat4Eagles]

I remember people commenting that they thought Cassidy said "daddydidit" in the 911 tape, but I could never hear it clearly enough to know that's what was said.

I don't think there would be any discussion about Cassidy's custody around the time of the murder if Nancy Cooper's parents hadn't made a custody application after she was murdered. Those Canadians seem to have a completely different approach to dealing with a murdered mother than most people, as their approach was somewhat unique. If it wasn't an international incident, custody may not have been granted. Hard to say. Hindsight is 20/20, but there is no answer for why all the families of murdered mothers, prior to Nancy Cooper's murder, did not immediately attempt to gain custody of the children.

Cassidy has been living with either Pat, or one of Jason's sisters, since Michelle was murdered, so with or without a court order, Jason has not had sole day to day care of Cassidy.


So, you are saying that Jason and C were never alone, and that if
C ever recalled something from that nite*, and started to react to her Father in fear or terror, then what?

*If Jasondidit
Kat

[Lindsey]

Thanx Lin,

I meant to thank CW for reopening the Board too.

And, to thank all our Board experts about the will and stuff.

:)

Kat


I thank CW for reopening the board too. I was bummed last night when I got home and it was closed.

I too thank all who bring answers to the board. I have plenty of questions but very few answers.

[Jester]

Not for one moment can I believe that.

If a report could be released to help get her awarded her civil suit, could it not do the same to help her in making sure her
granddaughter's well being and safety were assured , even if it meant removing her from Jason?

How cruel is it going to be to take her away from the Youngs, if this happens now?

Her heart is going to be broken , if her Father is indeed arrested.
Her whole world is going to be turned upside down, just like when
she lost her Mother..


C should have come.......


First .
Before anything else.
C is more important than anything we have talked about here
for the last 2 years.

Kat

The actions by Nancy Cooper's family were unprecedented, and unique because of the international circumstances. Are you convinced that other murdered mothers children would be removed from their father's care without an arrest? I'm not.

There was also ample evidence of spousal abuse in Nancy Cooper's case. That was not the case with Jason, or, at the very least, that information was not as readily available.

[Kat4Eagles]

She is mostly in the care of Pat and Jason's sister. There was a lot of concern, but legally, until he is named a suspect, very little anyone could do.

I would imagine after yesterday's news, child services have been contacted and Linda may be taking steps toward a custody change. Jason Young is now considered a murderer. Cassidy needs to be protected.


Okay, so , now 2 years, 1 month, and 3 days later, someone is going to protect her.

Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

First off, if Jason hadn't brutally mudered Michelle, Cassidy's well being wouldn't be in question.

Second, Jason had no mental issues like Brad Cooper and since he wasn't talking and remained "innocent", it would have been a very hard road for Linda to gain custody.

She did the right thing by filing the civil suit first. Now Jason is guilty of murdering Michelle and Linda can use that to file for custody.


Lol, wait, wait, wait.

If Jason killed Michelle, you don't think he had any mental issues?

And, Jason is not guilty of anything that has been proven in a criminal court yet.

Kat

[Jester]

So, you are saying that Jason and C were never alone, and that if
C ever recalled something from that nite*, and started to react to her Father in fear or terror, then what?

*If Jasondidit
Kat

I'm saying that I don't see any grounds for removing a child from a father's custody if that father has no record of abuse, has not been named a suspect in the murder, and has sought assistance from family members with the care of the child. On what grounds would Jason have lost custody of Cassidy?

Even now, with Jason labeled Michelle's slayer, it's unlikely that Michelle's mother and sister could gain custody of Cassidy. Jason could transfer custody or guardianship of Cassidy to his mother, or one of his sisters, and the custody issue would be a non-issue.

[Lindsey]

Jason was not guilty of any crime until Friday. Linda would have had no legal ground. Taking a child from the biological parent is not an easy task. Now that he has been found guilty in the civil suit, she has leverage.

I hope that any and all decisions made regarding Cassidy is in HER best interests and I don't know what that is. None of us know. Taking her away from Jason doesn't automatically mean she would go to Linda. What if she wound up in a foster home, even temporarily, while all this is sorted out? You never know what you're getting into when you start messing with family courts and their agencies. We've all heard and read the horror stories.

IMO

[Kat4Eagles]

IF LF did file some type of custody thing (or even visitation) now, wouldn't she have to do it in the county where Jason and Cassidy now live? She wouldn't be dealing with the same officials there that she has dealt with in Wake County. I wonder if this would be to her advantage or disadvantage. If she had done so two years ago, it might would have been different.

IMO

I think any action in the beginning would have been better than doing nothing..

Think what this is all going to do to C......to lose Michelle, to miss her Mom, the holidays are coming, the only security she knows is with Jason and the Young's, who I can only imagine adore her and have provided her with the best of everything, and have tried to make things normal for her, but.....

How much more can this little girl take?

Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

I hope that any and all decisions made regarding Cassidy is in HER best interests and I don't know what that is. None of us know. Taking her away from Jason doesn't automatically mean she would go to Linda. What if she wound up in a foster home, even temporarily, while all this is sorted out? You never know what you're getting into when you start messing with family courts and their agencies. We've all heard and read the horror stories.

IMO

I am just afraid she is going to be fought over and torn apart, and she is to too little and fragile.

It is going to be difficult to make the right decision.

Kat

[Lindsey]

I think any action in the beginning would have been better than doing nothing..

Think what this is all going to do to C......to lose Michelle, to miss her Mom, the holidays are coming, the only security she knows is with Jason and the Young's, who I can only imagine adore her and have provided her with the best of everything, and have tried to make things normal for her, but.....

How much more can this little girl take?

Kat

I agree Cassidy has been thru more loss already than any child should ever have to suffer. I worry that more harm will be done in the future tho if things aren't handled very carefully now.

I hope somebody much wiser than I will have the answer.

[Kat4Eagles]

Good night. I can see this is heading nowhere quick. Another Fisher-bashing session, even though Jason has been named Michelle's slayer.



Not at all, before the Board closed, I was asked why I seemed against the Fishers, today I was out of town, so tonite I explained.

Kat

[Jester]

I think any action in the beginning would have been better than doing nothing..

Think what this is all going to do to C......to lose Michelle, to miss her Mom, the holidays are coming, the only security she knows is with Jason and the Young's, who I can only imagine adore her and have provided her with the best of everything, and have tried to make things normal for her, but.....

How much more can this little girl take?

Kat

There have to be grounds to remove a child from the care of a parent. On what grounds would custody of Cassidy be taken away from Jason? His wife was murdered? He hung up on the police during their one and only phone call? He had an alibi that could not be corroborated? His friends said that he and Michelle were happy? What grounds were there for a custody change?

I don't understand why you criticize Linda, Meredith, Pat, Jason's sisters, and Michelle's friends for not applying for custody of Cassidy at the time Michelle was murdered, yet you provide no explanation about why any of those people should have applied for custody.

[Kat4Eagles]

I agree Cassidy has been thru more loss already than any child should ever have to suffer. I worry that more harm will be done in the future tho if things aren't handled very carefully now.

I hope somebody much wiser than I will have the answer.



Me too, but these are answers for the days ahead.

Nite.

Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

There have to be grounds to remove a child from the care of a parent. On what grounds would custody of Cassidy be taken away from Jason? His wife was murdered? He hung up on the police during their one and only phone call? He had an alibi that could not be corroborated? His friends said that he and Michelle were happy? What grounds were there for a custody change?

I don't understand why you criticize Linda, Meredith, Pat, Jason's sisters, and Michelle's friends for not applying for custody of Cassidy at the time Michelle was murdered, yet you provide no explanation about why any of those people should have applied for custody.


Then I am not making myself clear.

I want C to stay with the Youngs.

I only want to know why someone in Michelle's family, not her friends, could allow her to continue to live with someone they
thought murdered her Mom?

Kat

[MerriMent]

The phrase you bolded merely applies to conflicting recommendations in the parents' respective wills.

From the link I provided:

"If the minor's parent or parents have made a testamentary recommendation pursuant to G.S. 35A 1225 for the appointment of a guardian, the clerk shall give substantial weight to such recommendation; provided, such recommendation may not affect the rights of a surviving parent who has not willfully abandoned the minor, and the clerk shall in every instance base the appointment of a guardian or guardians on the minor's best interest."

The part you seem to be overlooking is that the will is a "testamentary recommendation" - only the Clerk can appoint a legal guardian. You remember the Clerk - the one who decided it was in Cassidy's best interest to appoint Linda Executrix?

Let me explain it a different way. A minor can't release and indemnify the LI company for payment of the proceeds. The LI company is only going to pay the proceeds to a court-appointed guardian of the estate, because the Court's oversight relieves the LI company of liability.

JMO

The Clerk must give weight to the testamentary recommendation and there is no reason for the Clerk to not appoint the guardian who was Michelle's testamentary choice.

[Jester]

Then I am not making myself clear.

I want C to stay with the Youngs.

I only want to know why someone in Michelle's family, not her friends, could allow her to continue to live with someone they
thought murdered her Mom?

Kat

Why do you only focus on Michelle's family when you think Cassidy was potentially in danger by living with Jason after Michelle's murder? Certainly Pat, Heather, Kim, and several other people associated with or related to the family had an equal responsibility to look at the situation and draw conclusions, not only Michelle's mother and sister. Could Pat have had concerns, and could that be why Jason and Cassidy moved in with her? Was Pat concerned enough that she didn't want Jason and Cassidy to be alone?

[MerriMent]

Since you didn't like my generalizations, here is the brochure for the AICPA life insurance program:

http://www.cpai.com/pdfs/4225_Life_Brochure-web.pdf

Their program - Michelle's insurance according to the SW - is administered by Prudential. Here's the Prudential claim form:

http://www.prudential.com/media/managed/GL.98.50.pdf

"If the beneficiary is
a) an estate, minor, or not competent to handle financial affairs: attach a certified copy of the court order appointing the legal representative."

Prudential requires court-issued letters of guardianship for a minor, not a will.

Cassidy doesn't have a guardian appointed because her father's parental rights are intact. If requested by the life company, the Clerk will have no legal grounds not to honor Michelle's wishes. The court-appointed guardian to represent CY's claim for the life insurance proceeds will be the guardian named in Michelle's Will. Why are you so desperate to believe the Clerk won't honor Michelle's wishes?

[MerriMent]

So, if Jason was unable to be Cassidy's guardian (upon an arrest) would Michelle's will kick in or would a judge have the option of naming someone else as CY's guardian? I'm not talking about the money now, talking about the person who actually raises Cassidy.

I would think the LI would be put in a trust for Cassidy, that no one could touch, until she reaches age of maturity. But I don't know the law ... just makes sense to me.

IMO


ETA: I should have said Clerk instead of Judge? If a will can be changed so easily, what good is a will.

A Will can't be changed all that easily nor the testamentary recommendations easily ignored.

[MerriMent]

First off, if Jason hadn't brutally mudered Michelle, Cassidy's well being wouldn't be in question.

Second, Jason had no mental issues like Brad Cooper and since he wasn't talking and remained "innocent", it would have been a very hard road for Linda to gain custody.

She did the right thing by filing the civil suit first. Now Jason is guilty of murdering Michelle and Linda can use that to file for custody.

Well, no she can't. Jason's parental rights are still intact.

[MerriMent]

IF LF did file some type of custody thing (or even visitation) now, wouldn't she have to do it in the county where Jason and Cassidy now live? She wouldn't be dealing with the same officials there that she has dealt with in Wake County. I wonder if this would be to her advantage or disadvantage. If she had done so two years ago, it might would have been different.

IMO

Linda Fisher does not have any legal standing now to file for custody of CY. Jason's parental rights are intact. Fisher could file for visitation if Jason's arrested and held in jail. Fisher could file for custody if he's convicted and sentenced to more than 15 years. That's assuming she wants physical custody because her focus seems to be on control of Cassidy's moneey, only.

[MerriMent]

Why do you only focus on Michelle's family when you think Cassidy was potentially in danger by living with Jason after Michelle's murder? Certainly Pat, Heather, Kim, and several other people associated with or related to the family had an equal responsibility to look at the situation and draw conclusions, not only Michelle's mother and sister. Could Pat have had concerns, and could that be why Jason and Cassidy moved in with her? Was Pat concerned enough that she didn't want Jason and Cassidy to be alone?

Jason's family believes he's innocent. If he's innocent, he's not going to harm his child and guess what, in over two years he hasn't. Believe it or not but some parents actually move back in with relatives after a spouse's death. They're trying to provide both comfort and a sense of stability for the child.

[Jester]

Jason's family believes he's innocent. If he's innocent, he's not going to harm his child and guess what, in over two years he hasn't. Believe it or not but some parents actually move back in with relatives after a spouse's death. They're trying to provide both comfort and a sense of stability for the child.

That's all very well, but if some people think that Cassidy was in danger by being with her father, then the responsibility falls on everyone that knew the family to ensure that Cassidy was safe, not only on Michelle's mother and sister. If there should have been a custody application at the time of Michelle's murder, it was up to Jason's extended family, Michelle's extended family, and other concerned people to make that happen.

I don't really understand the problem, as I see no reason why anyone could have applied to alter custody of Cassidy at the time of the murder. I was merely responding to Kat's claims that custody of Cassidy should have been contested when Michelle was murdered. I don't agree with that.

[MerriMent]

That's all very well, but if some people think that Cassidy was in danger by being with her father, then the responsibility falls on everyone that knew the family to ensure that Cassidy was safe, not only on Michelle's mother and sister. If there should have been a custody application at the time of Michelle's murder, it was up to Jason's extended family, Michelle's extended family, and other concerned people to make that happen.

I don't really understand the problem, as I see no reason why anyone could have applied to alter custody of Cassidy at the time of the murder. I was merely responding to Kat's claims that custody of Cassidy should have been contested when Michelle was murdered. I don't agree with that.

The responsibility to ensure Cassidy's safety by filing for emergency temp custody falls upon those who feel she is unsafe with Jason.

Jason's family have never felt Cassidy was endangered so they can't be blamed for the Fisher's failure to seek temp custody.

[Jester]

The responsibility to ensure Cassidy's safety by filing for emergency temp custody falls upon those who feel she is unsafe with Jason.

Jason's family have never felt Cassidy was endangered so they can't be blamed for the Fisher's failure to seek temp custody.

What makes you think that anyone thought Cassidy was in danger living with Jason? If Jason wanted to murder Cassidy, he would have done that when he murdered Michelle. Cassidy is alive, so that doesn't appear to be on Jason's agenda. The new information about Jason possibly drugging Cassidy puts things in a new light.

[Jester]

The fact that Jason put Cassidy in his bedroom on his side of the bed when her mother lay murdered between her side of the bed and the wall, and learning about the medications left on Cassidy's dresser, I have questions about whether Jason intended for Cassidy to live.

I agree with Kat, and now have new concerns about Cassidy's safety and remaining in Jason's care; although I did not have these same concerns earlier in the investigation when alibi was uncertain, persons of interest were unnamed, and no slayer had been identified.

Even though Cassidy has been living with either her grandmother or aunt since her mother was murdered, it has been pointed out that there are still many times that Jason is alone with his daughter. Perhaps her current living accommodations are not as safe as thought, and Cassidy should be removed to her mother's (family) care.

[Jester]

I can see the following as a possible scenario:

Jason returned to the house, murdered Michelle, took a shower to clean up, Cassidy woke up, came into the bedroom, and tracked blood around the room while he was in the shower. He came out of the shower, and put Cassidy in her bathroom while he got dressed, cleaned up, and staged a robbery. Cassidy would have been upset and struggling, which explains blood on the wall and door of the bathroom. Jason then took her out of her bathroom, back to the master bathroom, where he washed her feet. This accounts for the blood smear on the wall in the master bathroom shower. He took Cassidy to her own bedroom, and gave her medication to make her sleep. After she fell asleep, he put her in his bedroom on his side of the bed, where she was found by Meredith that afternoon. This accounts for the second shoe print, as Jason was now dressed for work. He was also much later than he planned, and in his rush he forgot about the medication in Cassidy's room. This also explains the delay that caused him to be late for his meeting, and also coincides with the sighting of a vehicle similar to his by a delivery person in the early hours of the morning.

As a pharmaceutical rep, Jason may have known how long it would take for the drugs to wear off, which accounts for Jason calling Meredith at 12:10 in the afternoon. He didn't want Cassidy to be found in a drugged condition, so by waiting 6-8 hours, he could be sure that she no longer appeared drugged.

The crime could have been committed by one person if that person was Jason. No stranger would have gone through the trouble of settling Cassidy after the murder, and it's unlikely an accomplice would have waited around a murder scene while dad settled his daughter.

Bumping this, as I'd like more thoughts on what really happened given the new info.
This seems like a likely scenario.

[Jester]

Looking at pictures of the last visit prior to the wrongful death suit filing, and Jason's willingness to allow visitation with Cassidy and her mom's family shortly before such a major legal move, I am optimistic that transferring custody of Cassidy from Jason to her mom's sister and mom would not exactly be traumatic. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Cassidy wasn't relieved.

On the upside, at least the funds have been released from the insurance company.

Cassidy deserves a break ... from being drugged to sleep such that she doesn't inconvenience her dad's alibi and social life, from the chatter about her dad in that small town of Brevard, and from the danger of living with a man named slayer of her mom.

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.

[Cardinal]

~snipped~

I know I am mean and insensitive to LF an MF's pain, but for almost 2 years, I have questioned how anyone can think someone murdered their daughter and continue to let their granddaughter or niece live with them.!!

No one ever has an answer...LF was privvy to much more knowledge probably than we ever have.

And, still did nothing.

From the very beginning, the child was labeled as a potential witness, the child was left alone with her dead mother, and now we find out the child may have been drugged.

So, what does the grandmother do?, Not fly into NC and demand a emergency custody hearing or removal of the child from her father in fear of her safety,

What does she do?

She files a wrongful death suit to collect money, whether for her or C, it is about money..

Whether to keep Jason from it, or whatever reason, she files a civil suit.

Nothing about the child's welfare.

~snipped~

JMO

Kat

Kat, you obviously put a lot of thought into this post, so forgive me for snipping it – I did so only for space concerns.

I’ve just spent some time reading NC law on child custody. That isn’t something I have any experience with, so I’m not claiming any expertise here. But from what I read, the only grounds for removing a child from her parent are abuse, neglect or a parent who is unable to provide care or supervision.

There have been a lot of comparisons to the Cooper case and I read the emergency custody order. NC’s family based their petition on Brad’s suicide attempts and something about his inconsistency in his status as a parent.

I’m not saying there are no grounds for concern with Cassidy. Far from it, in light of everything that has been made public recently. But you yourself have maintained that Jason is a good parent and that Cassidy is loved and cared for by the Youngs. So where is the abuse, neglect or lack of supervision that would provide grounds for a custody petition?

It also seems that the first step in a custody matter is to involve DSS. Do we know whether or not DSS was contacted? Maybe they were, and their assessment did not provide the necessary grounds for removal. And I doubt it would – Cassidy has obviously been well cared for within the terms of the law. I don’t think there was anything Linda could do.

JMO

[Silsbee]

Thank you, Silsbee. You were told correctly.

An adult could have been named, but I think it's more likely that the estate was the contingent beneficiary.

Good morning Cardinal,
I did some research last night for my own benefit. I found some interesting advice. I did A LOT of research so I will say this is all JMO because I didn't save links, etc. I will also say that I do not pretend to be an expert and this info is subject to my interpretation of what I read!

Several sites recommended not leaving your LI benefits to your estate because the proceeds are subject to your creditors. A trustworthy adult is recommended as an option but the recommendation given as the best option is to name your children as contingent beneficiaries and set up a living trust. The trust could be set up to end after the child graduates college or establishes a career; whatever the parent wishes to stipulate. The problem with appointing a guardian of the funds is that guardianship ends at 18. Now an 18 year old has access to lots of money, not a good idea! Also guardians are limited by the courts as to what they can do with the money. So if you wanted to send them to a private school the courts could say no. Interesting.

Given this info and the fact that MY had an attorney draft her Will I would think her attorney would have advised her not to leave the LI benefits to her estate. I think it is more likely that she was advised to name a general guardian (oversees both the person and assets) or set up a living trust with an appointed trustee to control the assets of the minor child. The reason I am thinking she may have appointed a guardian is because of all of the rumors that a guardian for Cassidy was named in her Will. It is highly recommended that a general guardian be appointed or two separate guardians one for the person and one for the assets at the time the Will is drafted. My common sense says she picked a general guardian.

I also found this regarding guardianship (http://web.co.wake.nc.us/courts/guardianship.html) in NC:
Please be advised of the following: the Clerk of Superior Court only has jurisdiction to appoint a Guardian of the Person or General Guardian for a minor child that has no living parents or other guardian. The Clerk of Superior Court cannot appoint a Guardian of the Person or General Guardian for a minor child if that minor's parents are still living, even with the parents' consent. In the event of living parents, matters must be decided in the Civil District Court.

I also read another article that stated NC takes a parent's guardian recommendation very seriously and unless there is good cause will not assume they know better than the parent what is in the best interest of the child. Generally speaking I also read that it is unlikely that a court challenge to your choice will succeed. It must be proven that there is good cause; child abuse, etc for a judge to change your wishes.

I have some more info I want to share but this is getting rather long. I will make another post.

JMO
Sils

(I will be contacting my Life Insurance Co. on Monday)

[Cardinal]

Hi, Silsbee. You really did do a lot of research! More people should. I'll wait for your other post before responding.

[Silsbee]

I also did some research on what the courts have decided in regards to contingent beneficiaries vs. the estate. I thought I had actually saved more of the info I read about this... I am still looking.

I did notice that most slayer laws are the same so even though this case is not in NC the circumstances are similar. This case found for the minor contingent beneficiary. I read so much that it is still rattling around in my head. :biggrin:

From the case:
In light of the foregoing, we find that the trial court properly decided as a matter of law that the proceeds of Diane’s life insurance policy inure to the benefit of the contingent beneficiary, Diane’s minor child, S.P.T., where the primary beneficiary has murdered the policy holder.
Affirmed.

Link (http://74.6.239.67/search/cache?ei=UTF-8&p=slayer+laws+and+life+insurance&y=Search&fr=moz2-ytff-&u=www.in.gov/judiciary/opinions/pdf/07250601par.pdf&w=slayer+slayers+laws+law+life+insurance&d=KzYuB0fiR1sB&icp=1&.intl=us)

IIRC there was another case in which the contingent beneficiary was awarded but I am still looking.

Sils

[Silsbee]

Here is another article I found about Life Insurance and the Slayer law. This is an interesting article but rather long. I found this section interesting in regards to the contingent beneficiary.

From the article:
The majority rule holds that when the primary beneficiary is disqualified from receiving proceeds for having murdered the insured, the proceeds will be distributed as if the slaying beneficiary had predeceased the insured. Thus, the contingent beneficiary receives the proceeds. Courts which adopt this rule typically do so to implement the intent of the insured. The insured designated an alternate beneficiary, and that result would probably have been chosen by the insured, despite the technical policy language, had he faced the question. Courts reason that the statutory or common law rule barring recovery by the wrongdoing primary beneficiary should not be invoked so as to prejudice the rights of the contingent beneficiary.

Link (http://www.thefederation.org/documents/schuman.htm)

Sils

[Cardinal]

Silsbee, I don't want to snip any of your post, so I'll respond separately.

From an estate planning perspective, leaving LI proceeds to your estate is not optimal, both because the proceeds are subject to creditors claims and because they are subject to probate. But in Michelle's case, neither would have been an overriding concern, plus she probably didn't anticipate her death before she had time to make changes. So I still wouldn't rule out the possibility that her estate was the contingent beneficiary, if only by default from not having named anyone else.

It would be wonderful if Michelle made a trust the contingent beneficiary, but people her age typically don't do that level of planning. Unfortunately.

Even if she named a General Guardian, as the language you cited points out, as long as Jason is living, the person named can't serve in that capacity without a court proceeding. A guardian of the estate, however, can be appointed even if a parent is living, and, more often than not, is appointed when there is a significant amount of money payable to a minor child - life insurance, medical malpractice awards, etc. Not only do most insurers require it, the court will generally deem it in the minor's best interest to have a professional fiduciary in control of the funds.

Given the conflict of interest cited as grounds for appointing Linda rather than Jason as Executrix of Michelle's estate, I can't see a court appointing him guardian of the estate for purposes of receiving the LI proceeds. I think the same concern would extend to a member of his family. I don't doubt Michelle's wishes would be considered if the court were appointing a guardian of the person, but it's rare that a parent or family member, even under the best of circumstances, is appointed guardian of the estate for that amount of money.

All JMO and IME

[Silsbee]

Silsbee, I don't want to snip any of your post, so I'll respond separately.

From an estate planning perspective, leaving LI proceeds to your estate is not optimal, both because the proceeds are subject to creditors claims and because they are subject to probate. But in Michelle's case, neither would have been an overriding concern, plus she probably didn't anticipate her death before she had time to make changes. So I still wouldn't rule out the possibility that her estate was the contingent beneficiary, if only by default from not having named anyone else.

It would be wonderful if Michelle made a trust the contingent beneficiary, but people her age typically don't do that level of planning. Unfortunately.

Even if she named a General Guardian, as the language you cited points out, as long as Jason is living, the person named can't serve in that capacity without a court proceeding. A guardian of the estate, however, can be appointed even if a parent is living, and, more often than not, is appointed when there is a significant amount of money payable to a minor child - life insurance, medical malpractice awards, etc. Not only do most insurers require it, the court will generally deem it in the minor's best interest to have a professional fiduciary in control of the funds.

Given the conflict of interest cited as grounds for appointing Linda rather than Jason as Executrix of Michelle's estate, I can't see a court appointing him guardian of the estate for purposes of receiving the LI proceeds. I think the same concern would extend to a member of his family. I don't doubt Michelle's wishes would be considered if the court were appointing a guardian of the person, but it's rare that a parent or family member, even under the best of circumstances, is appointed guardian of the estate for that amount of money.

All JMO and IME

Thanks Cardinal,
That gives me even more info to take into consideration. When reading the Clerk's info on guardianship, I read it thinking that they could not make that appointment (decide who would be guardian) not that the guardian could not serve.

I was hoping that if she sought the advice of an attorney she would have been advised to consider a trust. Plus she wasn't as ignorant as most when it comes to financial planning. One thing is for sure; couples in Michelle and Jason's age bracket don't usually draft wills either so hopefully she was ahead of the game in that respect.

I couldn't find anything in regards to what happens in instances of the guardian in charge of the minor child's benefits. The case I linked earlier did not go into that part of it. I was hoping to find what the general rule is when the minor contingent beneficiary takes after the primary is barred from taking.

ETA: When you say guardian of the estate - you are talking about Cassie's estate not Michelle's correct?

Sils

[Cardinal]

Thanks Cardinal,
That gives me even more info to take into consideration. When reading the Clerk's info on guardianship, I read it thinking that they could not make that appointment (decide who would be guardian) not that the guardian could not serve.

I was hoping that if she sought the advice of an attorney she would have been advised to consider a trust. Plus she wasn't as ignorant as most when it comes to financial planning. One thing is for sure; couples in Michelle and Jason's age bracket don't usually draft wills either so hopefully she was ahead of the game in that respect.

I couldn't find anything in regards to what happens in instances of the guardian in charge of the minor child's benefits. The case I linked earlier did not go into that part of it. I was hoping to find what the general rule is when the minor contingent beneficiary takes after the primary is barred from taking.

ETA: When you say guardian of the estate - you are talking about Cassie's estate not Michelle's correct?

Sils

Yes, guardian of the estate for Cassidy. I wish someone would scan and post a copy of Michelle's will. Now that it's probated, it's a public record, but there's no online access. Someone would have to go to the Clerk's office and get a copy. Somebody? Anybody? :loveeyes:

You probably won't find a lot online about guardians of minors estates. Although the proceeding is a public record, it's usually a quiet matter. Most of the time, an attorney will arrange for the appointment and the LI company will pay the proceeds - after that, the guardian just follows the law regarding the disbursement of the funds and accounts to the court regarding the investments and expenditures.

Again JMO and IME

[Silsbee]

Yes, guardian of the estate for Cassidy. I wish someone would scan and post a copy of Michelle's will. Now that it's probated, it's a public record, but there's no online access. Someone would have to go to the Clerk's office and get a copy. Somebody? Anybody? :loveeyes:

You probably won't find a lot online about guardians of minors estates. Although the proceeding is a public record, it's usually a quiet matter. Most of the time, an attorney will arrange for the appointment and the LI company will pay the proceeds - after that, the guardian just follows the law regarding the disbursement of the funds and accounts to the court regarding the investments and expenditures.

Again JMO and IME

That sure would answer a lot of questions wouldn't it!

So if Cassie was named contingent beneficiary and she receives the proceeds of the LI then a court appoints a guardian of her estate which would be separate from the guardian named in Michelle's will even if she named a general guardian?

I hope I am understanding this correctly.

Sils

[Cardinal]

That sure would answer a lot of questions wouldn't it!

So if Cassie was named contingent beneficiary and she receives the proceeds of the LI then a court appoints a guardian of her estate which would be separate from the guardian named in Michelle's will even if she named a general guardian?

I hope I am understanding this correctly.

Sils

You are, and yes, that's what I believe will happen.

Think if it this way - the language in a will appointing a guardian of a minor child presupposes that both parents are deceased. Otherwise, the surviving parent is naturally the guardian under the law.

The situation in Michelle's case - with the application of the slayer law, would make Jason ineligible to serve as guardian of the estate for the LI proceeds, IMO. But the guardian named in the will does not automatically step up to that role, because both parents aren't deceased.

JMO

[Silsbee]

You are, and yes, that's what I believe will happen.

Think if it this way - the language in a will appointing a guardian of a minor child presupposes that both parents are deceased. Otherwise, the surviving parent is naturally the guardian under the law.

The situation in Michelle's case - with the application of the slayer law, would make Jason ineligible to serve as guardian of the estate for the LI proceeds, IMO. But the guardian named in the will does not automatically step up to that role, because both parents aren't deceased.

JMO

Cardinal,
Does a guardian of the estate have to be appointed? Can the courts or Jason establish a trust for Cassidy and assign a trustee instead of the guardianship?

Sils

[Cardinal]

Cardinal,
Does a guardian of the estate have to be appointed? Can the courts or Jason establish a trust for Cassidy and assign a trustee instead of the guardianship?

Sils

Maybe. NC law has provisions for a custodial trust, but I think the guardian of the estate would have to make the transfer. A custodial trust would terminate at age 21.

JMO

[Silsbee]

Maybe. NC law has provisions for a custodial trust, but I think the guardian of the estate would have to make the transfer. A custodial trust would terminate at age 21.

JMO


Thanks Cardinal, Good discussing this with you! :thumbsup:

Sils

BBL! Taking the gets out for family day!

[Cardinal]

Thanks Cardinal, Good discussing this with you! :thumbsup:

Sils

BBL! Taking the gets out for family day!

You too! Enjoy!

[annalyzer]

Kat, you obviously put a lot of thought into this post, so forgive me for snipping it – I did so only for space concerns.

I’ve just spent some time reading NC law on child custody. That isn’t something I have any experience with, so I’m not claiming any expertise here. But from what I read, the only grounds for removing a child from her parent are abuse, neglect or a parent who is unable to provide care or supervision.

There have been a lot of comparisons to the Cooper case and I read the emergency custody order. NC’s family based their petition on Brad’s suicide attempts and something about his inconsistency in his status as a parent.

I’m not saying there are no grounds for concern with Cassidy. Far from it, in light of everything that has been made public recently. But you yourself have maintained that Jason is a good parent and that Cassidy is loved and cared for by the Youngs. So where is the abuse, neglect or lack of supervision that would provide grounds for a custody petition?
It also seems that the first step in a custody matter is to involve DSS. Do we know whether or not DSS was contacted? Maybe they were, and their assessment did not provide the necessary grounds for removal. And I doubt it would – Cassidy has obviously been well cared for within the terms of the law. I don’t think there was anything Linda could do.

JMO

He's been found to be the slayer of her mom. She was left alone for hours with her mom's dead body. There is the abuse, neglect and lack of supervision.

Did LF have to get him named the slayer first and now she can go after getting custody of the child?

[Cardinal]

He's been found to be the slayer of her mom. She was left alone for hours with her mom's dead body. There is the abuse, neglect and lack of supervision.

Did LF have to get him named the slayer first and now she can go after getting custody of the child?

Hi, Anna. It's possible, right? And if LE can sustantiate the alleged drugging, I think it's more than possible.

JMO

[Barbara2]

I really hope that the two families can come to terms with this and work out arrangements that are in the best interest of the child and all concerned. She needs the love of both families. As difficult as it is, they need to work it out without the courts.

[Cardinal]

I really hope that the two families can come to terms with this and work out arrangements that are in the best interest of the child and all concerned. She needs the love of both families. As difficult as it is, they need to work it out without the courts.

Thank you, Barbara, for the perspective. You're absolutely right. If both families can put aside their issues and focus on what's best for Cassidy, that would be wonderful.

[JHP]

Thank you, Barbara, for the perspective. You're absolutely right. If both families can put aside their issues and focus on what's best for Cassidy, that would be wonderful.

Yes, it would be wonderful for that to happen. However I have my doubts that the Young side of the family has, or will be able to do the best thing for Cassidy. They kept her away from her mothers side of the family for the last 2 years. It was even said that the Michelle's family had to drop by the daycare to see her. So was the Youngs main focus on what was best for Cassidy? Or what was best for their son/brother who has the new title of SLAYER.

I'm sure they fed her and gave her a bed to sleep in. But did they tell her how much her mom loved her on a daily basis? It was rumored the Youngs even returned Cassidy's christmas gifts last year. If I were Linda Fisher I would want someone in authority, an outside, unbiased party, to set down some guidelines.

Yes, Cardinal and Barbara you are right it would be so nice if that could happen.

JMO

[annalyzer]

I agree with JHP. They kept Cassidy away from LF for the last two years and LF wasn't saying anything or doing anything (that we know of) against Jason. So now that she has won a WDS against him and found him to be the slayer of Michelle I doubt the Young's are feeling too cozy with her.

[jerry50]

Then I am not making myself clear.

I want C to stay with the Youngs.

I only want to know why someone in Michelle's family, not her friends, could allow her to continue to live with someone they
thought murdered her Mom?

Kat

I remember way back when it was discussed that grandprents in NC have no rights in regards to their grandchild.
Maybe Linda put her own heartbreaking feelings aside and felt that with all of the emotional trauma Cassidy suffered that she would suffer even more if she was ripped from her father so soon after losing her Mother.

You seem to infer that Linda should have been clairvoyant about how Cassidy was being raised by JY. What about the Young's. JY called his Mother 28 times immediately following the murder. That doesn't even count the number of times Pat may have called him back. Don't you think that she knew then about the murder? And if he did not tell her, as his mother shouldn't she have been able to sense through his voice that something was wrong? And when she finally saw him after he arrived she should have been able to see that something was wrong.

[Lindsey]

Looking at pictures of the last visit prior to the wrongful death suit filing, and Jason's willingness to allow visitation with Cassidy and her mom's family shortly before such a major legal move, I am optimistic that transferring custody of Cassidy from Jason to her mom's sister and mom would not exactly be traumatic. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Cassidy wasn't relieved.

On the upside, at least the funds have been released from the insurance company.

Cassidy deserves a break ... from being drugged to sleep such that she doesn't inconvenience her dad's alibi and social life, from the chatter about her dad in that small town of Brevard, and from the danger of living with a man named slayer of her mom.

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.

I haven't seen those pictures. Could you give me a link, please? TIA

We don't know for sure that Cassidy was drugged at all but I don't know where you're coming from with the "...and social life" part. ??

[Lindsey]

I really hope that the two families can come to terms with this and work out arrangements that are in the best interest of the child and all concerned. She needs the love of both families. As difficult as it is, they need to work it out without the courts.

That would be ideal. But first they have to realize and accept the fact Cassidy is an individual and separate person with needs of her own and not just an extension of Michelle or Jason. So many grandparents have a problem doing that and it causes it's own set of problems for the child in her growth and development.

I especially agree they need to work it out without the courts. Once the courts get involved, things can really get messed up and decisions made by people who don't even know her, much less love her.

IMO

[BSNBREVARDNC]

I would like to take a shot at this, Brevard,
but, first Sils, I am so glad you are back !!

I know I am mean and insensitive to LF an MF's pain,
but for almost 2 years, I have questioned how
anyone can think someone murdered their daughter
and continue to let their granddaughter or niece live with them.!!

No one ever has an answer...
LF was privvy to much more knowledge probably than we
ever have.

And, still did nothing.

From the very beginning, ......(snipped)


JMO

Kat

Just as a thought.

I wonder how much of LF’s inaction that you have described can be blamed on LE or the DA’s office. Maybe they were giving her hope and she finally decided to take matters into her own hands so to speak.

[Leanne Weich]

Just as a thought.

I wonder how much of LF’s inaction that you have described can be blamed on LE or the DA’s office. Maybe they were giving her hope and she finally decided to take matters into her own hands so to speak.

I think that is quite possible. I bet that things move on rather quickly from now with regard to an indictment. I know a lot of people don't think so because they think the DA is still waiting for the results from the yahoo SW but I don't feel the same way. I think they have more than enough to go forward now and if the SW reveals additional evidence then that is a bonus. If the DA really suspects an accomplice, they can get an indictment against JLY and J Doe, imo.

[alter ego]

He's been found to be the slayer of her mom. She was left alone for hours with her mom's dead body. There is the abuse, neglect and lack of supervision.

Did LF have to get him named the slayer first and now she can go after getting custody of the child?
NC law stipulates clear and convincing evidence must be presented as proof that Jason's conduct is/was inconsistent with his constitutionally protected status as a natural parent.

And the US Supreme Court held in SANTOSKY v. KRAMER, 455 U.S. 745 (1982):

2. The "fair preponderance of the evidence" standard prescribed by [The New York Family Court Act ] § 622 violates the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.

3. Before a State may sever completely and irrevocably the rights of parents in their natural child, due process requires that the State support its allegations by at least clear and convincing evidence...

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0455_0745_ZS.html

[Cardinal]

NC law stipulates clear and convincing evidence must be presented as proof that Jason's conduct is/was inconsistent with his constitutionally protected status as a natural parent.

And the US Supreme Court held in SANTOSKY v. KRAMER, 455 U.S. 745 (1982):

2. The "fair preponderance of the evidence" standard prescribed by [The New York Family Court Act ] § 622 violates the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.

3. Before a State may sever completely and irrevocably the rights of parents in their natural child, due process requires that the State support its allegations by at least clear and convincing evidence...

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0455_0745_ZS.html

AE, is it necessary to deprive Jason of his parental rights in order to remove Cassidy from his custody?

[alter ego]

AE, is it necessary to deprive Jason of his parental rights in order to remove Cassidy from his custody?
Absolutely.

Custody is a parental right.

[Cardinal]

Absolutely.

Custody is a parental right.

Was Brad Cooper deprived of his parental rights? I thought Nancy's parents simply received custody.

[alter ego]

Was Brad Cooper deprived of his parental rights? I thought Nancy's parents simply received custody.
Since custody of his children was awarded to his inlaws, then, absolutely Brad lost his parental rights.

[Cardinal]

Since custody of his children was awarded to his inlaws, then, absolutely Brad lost his parental rights.

I misunderstood. The case you linked was about the legal termination of parental rights. As in the proceedings initiated by DSS so that the child can be adopted. Legally terminating parental rights and removing a child from a parent's custody are different.

JMO

[tpw]

In the case of Brad Cooper, his in laws ,the Rentz's have temporary custody. He has not lost his parental rights. ( Also for those who said it was an 'international' matter, it was nothing of the sort. All was done according to NC law.)
Accordingly, if Lynda Fisher does anything to gain custody of Cassidy, it will be done according to NC law.

[Cardinal]

In the case of Brad Cooper, his in laws ,the Rentz's have temporary custody. He has not lost his parental rights. ( Also for those who said it was an 'international' matter, it was nothing of the sort. All was done according to NC law.)
Accordingly, if Lynda Fisher does anything to gain custody of Cassidy, it will be done according to NC law.

Thanks, tpw. That's what I understood, but I've been known to be wrong. :biggrin:

[alter ego]

I misunderstood. The case you linked was about the legal termination of parental rights. As in the proceedings initiated by DSS so that the child can be adopted. Legally terminating parental rights and removing a child from a parent's custody are different.

JMO
I stand corrected then :smile:

[Cardinal]

I stand corrected then :smile:

Hey, just returning the favor - you helped me yesterday! :wink:

[alter ego]

Hey, just returning the favor - you helped me yesterday! :wink:
:wink:

As far as custody goes then.......the statute I quoted earlier still applies in that clear and convincing evidence must be presented.

'While the Due Process Clause ensures that the government cannot unconstitutionally infringe upon a parent's paramount right to custody solely to obtain a better result, a parent's right to custody is not absolute and may be lost upon clear and convincing evidence that the parent is unfit or that the parent's conduct is inconsistent with his or her protected status"
http://www.aoc.state.nc.us/www/public/sc/opinions/2001/003-01-1.htm

AND

A parent's child should not be placed “in the hands of a third person except upon convincing proof that the parent is an unfit person to have custody of the child or for some other extraordinary fact or circumstance.” Id. (citing 3 Suzanne Reynolds, Lee's North Carolina Family Law § 224 at 22:32 (5th ed. 2000)
http://www.aoc.state.nc.us/www/public/coa/opinions/2002/001477-1.htm

So the question remains as to what would be 'clear and convincing' evidence. More than probable cause/preponderance and less than resaonable doubt.

IOW, would PC affidavits from SWs meet the 'clear and convincing' burden?

[Cardinal]

:wink:

As far as custody goes then.......the statute I quoted earlier still applies in that clear and convincing evidence must be presented.

'While the Due Process Clause ensures that the government cannot unconstitutionally infringe upon a parent's paramount right to custody solely to obtain a better result, a parent's right to custody is not absolute and may be lost upon clear and convincing evidence that the parent is unfit or that the parent's conduct is inconsistent with his or her protected status"
http://www.aoc.state.nc.us/www/public/sc/opinions/2001/003-01-1.htm

AND

A parent's child should not be placed “in the hands of a third person except upon convincing proof that the parent is an unfit person to have custody of the child or for some other extraordinary fact or circumstance.” Id. (citing 3 Suzanne Reynolds, Lee's North Carolina Family Law § 224 at 22:32 (5th ed. 2000)
http://www.aoc.state.nc.us/www/public/coa/opinions/2002/001477-1.htm

So the question remains as to what would be 'clear and convincing' evidence. More than probable cause/preponderance and less than resaonable doubt.

IOW, would PC affidavits from SWs meet the 'clear and convincing' burden?

I don't know, AE. That's outside my experience. Honestly though, I think Jason will be indicted before there's a custody issue. And if he's convicted, I think that will be "clear and convincing."

Like Barbara said, we can all hope the families will work it out and it won't come to that. I would hate to see that child subjected to a custody battle. She's been through enough already.

JMO

[Kat4Eagles]

Kat, you obviously put a lot of thought into this post, so forgive me for snipping it – I did so only for space concerns.

I’ve just spent some time reading NC law on child custody. That isn’t something I have any experience with, so I’m not claiming any expertise here. But from what I read, the only grounds for removing a child from her parent are abuse, neglect or a parent who is unable to provide care or supervision.

There have been a lot of comparisons to the Cooper case and I read the emergency custody order. NC’s family based their petition on Brad’s suicide attempts and something about his inconsistency in his status as a parent.

I’m not saying there are no grounds for concern with Cassidy. Far from it, in light of everything that has been made public recently. But you yourself have maintained that Jason is a good parent and that Cassidy is loved and cared for by the Youngs. So where is the abuse, neglect or lack of supervision that would provide grounds for a custody petition?

It also seems that the first step in a custody matter is to involve DSS. Do we know whether or not DSS was contacted? Maybe they were, and their assessment did not provide the necessary grounds for removal. And I doubt it would – Cassidy has obviously been well cared for within the terms of the law. I don’t think there was anything Linda could do.

JMO


No problem , that was a pretty lengthy post....sorry!!

So, someone can be considered a good parent and a murderer at the same time?

Kat

[Cardinal]

No problem , that was a pretty lengthy post....sorry!!

So, someone can be considered a good parent and a murderer at the same time?

Kat

Actually, Kat, as crazy as it sounds, I don't think the two things are mutually exclusive.

[Kat4Eagles]

Oh, well that settles it!!! YOU want Cassidy to stay with the Young's:laugh:

Kat, you don't know the Young's any better than you know the Fisher's.

Also to answer the second part of your post, had anyone filed for custody for Cassidy, you would be saying how horrible they are for taking Cassidy away from her "daddy".

I believe it was Lindsey that posted that filing for custody could potentially make things much much worse for Cassidy, ie: she could wind up in foster care until things settled. She is correct. Did it ever occur to you that Michelle's family and friends love Cassidy so much they don't want to do that to her?

First step was to have him named a slayer. When he is arrested, Cassidy will need somewhere to stay. Most likely, she will remain with the Young's as that has been her primary residence for two years. If Jason is convicted in a criminal court, that could change. We may find out that the Youngs had a huge part in covering for Jason's crime and no judge will want a child in that environment.


It does not settle anything , I was merely expressing my opinion, and my hope for C, that she not be forced to leave the Youngs.
Kat

[Barbara2]

No problem , that was a pretty lengthy post....sorry!!

So, someone can be considered a good parent and a murderer at the same time?

Kat

I don't think so. I think that when a man murders the mother of his child (and murders another child along with her), that automatically makes him a bad person which includes being a bad parent. I think he should lose all parental rights. It's up to the courts to make that designation. IMO

[annalyzer]

:wink:

As far as custody goes then.......the statute I quoted earlier still applies in that clear and convincing evidence must be presented.

'While the Due Process Clause ensures that the government cannot unconstitutionally infringe upon a parent's paramount right to custody solely to obtain a better result, a parent's right to custody is not absolute and may be lost upon clear and convincing evidence that the parent is unfit or that the parent's conduct is inconsistent with his or her protected status"
http://www.aoc.state.nc.us/www/public/sc/opinions/2001/003-01-1.htm

AND

A parent's child should not be placed “in the hands of a third person except upon convincing proof that the parent is an unfit person to have custody of the child or for some other extraordinary fact or circumstance.” Id. (citing 3 Suzanne Reynolds, Lee's North Carolina Family Law § 224 at 22:32 (5th ed. 2000)
http://www.aoc.state.nc.us/www/public/coa/opinions/2002/001477-1.htm

So the question remains as to what would be 'clear and convincing' evidence. More than probable cause/preponderance and less than resaonable doubt.

IOW, would PC affidavits from SWs meet the 'clear and convincing' burden?


He was ruled to be the slayer of her mother. He left her alone with her mother's dead body for over 8 hours.

[Kat4Eagles]

Actually, Kat, as crazy as it sounds, I don't think the two things are mutually exclusive.


I know that OJ was found guilty in the civil trial, but was given back custody of Sydney and Justin, when he was found not guilty in the criminal case, from the Browns.

I am not sure if they had actual permanent legal custody while he was in prison, but there was a custody hearing later on.

Although, the Browns tried to fight it, they later bowed gracefully out of the picture, not to make things worse for the children.

I think I am right on this.

Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

He was ruled to be the slayer of her mother. He left her alone with her mother's dead body for over 8 hours.


Hi Anna.:seeya:

I was thinking of the possibilities that were raised here that MF could possibly be an accomplice..?

Does anyone really think that way?

I think for me, what started my suspicions was the seed that was planted about her taking funds.

That showed she needed money.

Money is a motive.

Then her webpage.

Then the contrast to her and Michelle.

There is not one poster here who could swear she was never jealous of Michelle when they were growing up.

Jealousy is a motive,

Then Michelle moves to another city, continuing to excel at all she tries, and the sister follows.

I don't know how I feel now, the keys and the 911 call still raise some questions and doubts.

But, I have never called anyone a murderer here, not even with the new slayer charges..

I plan to wait it out.

Kat

[Cardinal]

I know that OJ was found guilty in the civil trial, but was given back custody of Sydney and Justin, when he was found not guilty in the criminal case, from the Browns.

I am not sure if they had actual permanent legal custody while he was in prison, but there was a custody hearing later on.

Although, the Browns tried to fight it, they later bowed gracefully out of the picture, not to make things worse for the children.

I think I am right on this.

Kat

"They later bowed gracefully out of the picture, not to make things worse for the children."

That's significant, Kat. Loving the children so much they didn't want to make things worse for them.

Maybe that's your answer - why Linda didn't fight for custody.

Goodnight. :)

[Barbara2]

Hi Anna.:seeya:

I was thinking of the possibilities that were raised... <snipped>
Kat

If there was an accomplice (and I've not seen the evidence), I am positive that it was not a family member with the last name of Fisher. I think you might have to try harder. IMO

[Jester]

It does not settle anything , I was merely expressing my opinion, and my hope for C, that she not be forced to leave the Youngs.
Kat

I understood from your posts yesterday that you were quite upset that Cassidy had remained in Jason's care after Michelle's murder. I thought you made several comments questioning why Cassidy's extended family did not do more to ensure that Cassidy was not living with a potential murderer. Today, you say that you approve of Cassidy living with her mother's slayer, and that you have no concerns about her welfare?

What made you change your mind?

[Kat4Eagles]

"They later bowed gracefully out of the picture, not to make things worse for the children."

That's significant, Kat. Loving the children so much they didn't want to make things worse for them.

Maybe that's your answer - why Linda didn't fight for custody.

Goodnight. :)


Nite Card,

Maybe you are right, I guess both families would have to undergo close scrunity in order to apply for custody, should they so choose, or if it ever comes down to that.

Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

If there was an accomplice (and I've not seen the evidence), I am positive that it was not a family member with the last name of Fisher. I think you might have to try harder. IMO




This is what comes out of uncredible stories then, we were led to believe something that was not true or covered up, but I have never
been able to shake the feeling there was not a basis for it.

Kat

[Barbara2]

This is what comes out of uncredible stories then, we were led to believe something that was not true or covered up, but have never
been able to shake the feeling there was not a basis for it.

Kat

You have to speak for yourself there. I have been able to shake it. I don't believe everything that is posted on the internet. You have to make sure that it is accurate. The poster corrected the mistake. The misinformation came from a source that wanted to deflect attention away from the person that has been judged to be the killer of his wife. I can understand where the confusion came from but it was corrected LOOOOOOONG ago. IMO

[Kat4Eagles]

I understood from your posts yesterday that you were quite upset that Cassidy had remained in Jason's care after Michelle's murder. I thought you made several comments questioning why Cassidy's extended family did not do more to ensure that Cassidy was not living with a potential murderer. Today, you say that you approve of Cassidy living with her mother's slayer, and that you have no concerns about her welfare?

What made you change your mind?


Wouldn't you be upset if someone, anyone, really believed without a shadow of a doubt, that someone they loved, a minor, in fact, could
be safe living with a killer, and not act upon it.?

I was upset that L E labeled C as a possible witness to the murder, did they try to get her some protection or counseling?

I have never been one to question Jason's parenting, but now that the slayer title has been officially placed on him, then I would have to wonder how someone, anyone, could file a suit for assets, but not for custody?

Which is more important?

Do you get it now?

Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

You have to speak for yourself there. I have been able to shake it. I don't believe everything that is posted on the internet. You have to make sure that it is accurate. The poster corrected the mistake. The misinformation came from a source that wanted to deflect attention away from the person that has been judged to be the killer of his wife. I can understand where the confusion came from but it was corrected LOOOOOOONG ago. IMO


You are right, I should have put the word "I" in it.

I did now.

Kat

[Jester]

Wouldn't you be upset if someone, anyone, really believed without a shadow of a doubt, that someone they loved, a minor, in fact, could
be safe living with a killer, and not act upon it.?

I was upset that L E labeled C as a possible witness to the murder, did they try to get her some protection or counseling?

I have never been one to question Jason's parenting, but now that the slayer title has been officially placed on him, then I would have to wonder how someone, anyone, could file a suit for assets, but not for custody?

Which is more important?

Do you get it now?

Kat

Not really. You seem critical of Cassidy's family for not having Cassidy removed from Jason's care, but then say you want Cassidy to remain in Jason's care.

I'm asking what made you change your mind from yesterday to today, but don't answer if you don't want to.

[JHP]

Wouldn't you be upset if someone, anyone, really believed without a shadow of a doubt, that someone they loved, a minor, in fact, could
be safe living with a killer, and not act upon it.?

I was upset that L E labeled C as a possible witness to the murder, did they try to get her some protection or counseling?

I have never been one to question Jason's parenting, but now that the slayer title has been officially placed on him, then I would have to wonder how someone, anyone, could file a suit for assets, but not for custody?

Which is more important?

Do you get it now?

Kat

Do you know for a fact that Linda Fisher did not do all she could do short of kidnapping to try and ensure Cassidy's well being? Just because it hasn't been in the "news" does not mean that she didn't meet with LE,CPS, and an attorney to see what could be done. And was told she would have to wait until there was an arrest or other development.
I can imagine she worried about Cassidy every day.
Probably every waking moment.


OJ's children were considerably older then Cassidy perhaps that came into play for the family's decision was what the children wanted.

We do not know if CPS has been involved or not. I think maybe theres been more going on then you know. Maybe we'll find out one day.
JMO

[annalyzer]

Hi Anna.:seeya:

I was thinking of the possibilities that were raised here that MF could possibly be an accomplice..?

Does anyone really think that way?

I think for me, what started my suspicions was the seed that was planted about her taking funds.

That showed she needed money.

Money is a motive.

Then her webpage.

Then the contrast to her and Michelle.

There is not one poster here who could swear she was never jealous of Michelle when they were growing up.

Jealousy is a motive,

Then Michelle moves to another city, continuing to excel at all she tries, and the sister follows.

I don't know how I feel now, the keys and the 911 call still raise some questions and doubts.

But, I have never called anyone a murderer here, not even with the new slayer charges..

I plan to wait it out.

Kat


I never saw anything about the funds so didn't consider that. Webpage doesn't factor in either. I've always found the 911 call to be very strange but after a long while wrote it off to shock as everyone was suggesting. Then the sw comes out where Jason tells his lover that MF counseled him on his relationship with Michelle. I thought that was weird. Now the newest sw's come out and show a lot of discrepancies in what MF had said about footprints, the keys, etc. I'm sure everything can be explained away individually but when added together it makes me go hmmmm. For some reason they won't arrest Jason or even name him a suspect. They call this case complicated. Why? Hopefully there will be an indictment handed down next week. Everything will come out. My suspicions will be put to rest once and for all.

eta: and the massive weight loss

[Hey Paula]

Do you know for a fact that Linda Fisher did not do all she could do short of kidnapping to try and ensure Cassidy's well being? Just because it hasn't been in the "news" does not mean that she didn't meet with LE,CPS, and an attorney to see what could be done. And was told she would have to wait until there was an arrest or other development.
I can imagine she worried about Cassidy every day.
Probably every waking moment.


OJ's children were considerably older then Cassidy perhaps that came into play for the family's decision was what the children wanted.

We do not know if CPS has been involved or not. I think maybe theres been more going on then you know. Maybe we'll find out one day.
JMO

Linda Fisher's hands were tied because JY was never charged or indicted, much less convicted of having murdered Michelle. I can't begin to imagine what it must have felt like for her to know JY murdered her daughter and that Cassie, her beloved sole grandchild, was living with her daughter's murderer and that the child might have even witnessed the murder.

I sincerely hope LF is ultimately awarded custody of Cassie. LF was deprived of her grandchild at a time when they needed one another most, since each of them are tied to Michelle.

CPS, ironically often to the detriment of the children they are commissioned to protect, endanger (either physically and/or emotionally) the children by allowing them to remain with their biological parent/s.

IMO

[Lindsey]

I think this is what Cardinal was talking about earlier. Stated in simple, easy to read terms. IMO

Guardian Appointments

http://web.co.wake.nc.us/courts/guardianship.html

[Hey Paula]

Was Michelle's will ever published?

TIA to respondents

[Jester]

Was Michelle's will ever published?

TIA to respondents

I don't think so.

[Hey Paula]

I don't think so.

Thanks for your reply, Jester.

I wondered whom she named as Executor, guardian and/or conservator.

[Jester]

Thanks for your reply, Jester.

I wondered whom she named as Executor, guardian and/or conservator.

Her will probably named spouse as executor of will, which may explain why Linda applied to have that changed so that she is executor.

[alter ego]

He was ruled to be the slayer of her mother. He left her alone with her mother's dead body for over 8 hours.Right...and that ruling was based on the preponderance of the evidence presented to the court.

'Clear and convincing' is a higher burden.

[Hey Paula]

Her will probably named spouse as executor of will, which may explain why Linda applied to have that changed so that she is executor.

I was reading the more recently published SWs. One of them re JY's blistered feet, was deemed by a podiatrist to have occurred by JY wearing shoes which were too tight. This might explain the shoe prints found at the crime scene which were two sizes smaller than what JY wears.

IMO

[alter ego]

Thanks for your reply, Jester.

I wondered whom she named as Executor, guardian and/or conservator.hey Hey Paula.

According to Linda's attys, Jason was named executor and they had him disqualified citing conflict of interest and had Linda, who (again, according to Linda's atty's) was named as an alternate in Michelle's will named as the executrix of Michelle's estate.

It has been rumored that Jason's sister Heather was named guardian of Cassidy in the event of Jason and Michelle's death.

[Jester]

I was reading the more recently published SWs. One of them re JY's blistered feet, was deemed by a podiatrist to have occurred by JY wearing shoes which were too tight. This might explain the shoe prints found at the crime scene which were two sizes smaller than what JY wears.

IMO

It certainly provides one explanation about why a size 10 shoe print was at the scene. Jason isn't talking, so he hasn't provided any explanation about why his feet were all messed up right after the murder.

If he wore shoes that were too small, he would have blistered feet.

[Hey Paula]

hey Hey Paula.

According to Linda's attys, Jason was named executor and they had him disqualified citing conflict of interest and had Linda, who (again, according to Linda's atty's) was named as an alternate in Michelle's will named as the executrix of Michelle's estate.

It has been rumored that Jason's sister Heather was named guardian of Cassidy in the event of Jason and Michelle's death.

Hi AE!

Thanks for your reply.

Large life insurance policies are dangerous when the beneficiaries "have murder on their minds".

If JY is convicted, does this mean Cassidy will remain with Heather?

[Jester]

hey Hey Paula.

According to Linda's attys, Jason was named executor and they had him disqualified citing conflict of interest and had Linda, who (again, according to Linda's atty's) was named as an alternate in Michelle's will named as the executrix of Michelle's estate.

It has been rumored that Jason's sister Heather was named guardian of Cassidy in the event of Jason and Michelle's death.

The guardian appointed to care for Cassidy in the event both parents are deceased is a moot point, as Jason is still alive.

[Jester]

Hi AE!

Thanks for your reply.

Large life insurance policies are dangerous when the beneficiaries "have murder on their minds".

If JY is convicted, does this mean Cassidy will remain with Heather?

Jason, as the sole surviving parent, can change the appointed guardian to anyone he wants.

[Kat4Eagles]

Kat

I think only you and maybe one or two other posters here think Meredith could be an accomplice.

The issue of the funds was put to rest the same day the story came out. It wasn't true.

So you can't say she needed the money, or money was a motive.

Her webpage, well, its really no different that most people of her age.

Her contrast to Michelle? That is your very own personal view. I can take that many many ways as could anyone who would come back and read your posts years from now. Even Cassidy. She will see that you felt that Meredith being heavier than Michelle makes her a less worthwhile human being and capable of murdering her own sister.

So, since it is your opinion, and you yourself said you never saw one person post on this board that Meredith was ever jealous of Michelle, jealousy is not a motive.

Her moving to be near Michelle? You didn't know Michelle and don't know Meredith. Could it be that they were very close and needed to be near eachother? That Meredith loved Cassidy and wanted to be near her?

Meredith found her sister beaten to death, her niece left alone in the house. Of course her statements after that shocking day could be conflicting. She is only human after all.

And while you have never "called" anyone a murderer here, you have implied it over and over and over in your posts about Cassidy's Aunt.


:no:

Never once implied it.

I have always said I have no clue who killed Michelle.
Kat

[alter ego]

Hi AE!

Thanks for your reply.

Large life insurance policies are dangerous when the beneficiaries "have murder on their minds".

If JY is convicted, does this mean Cassidy will remain with Heather?Since he didn't try to collect the LI proceeds, I'm not sure it can be successfully argued as motive.

That is my understanding.

[Hey Paula]

It certainly provides one explanation about why a size 10 shoe print was at the scene. Jason isn't talking, so he hasn't provided any explanation about why his feet were all messed up right after the murder.

If he wore shoes that were too small, he would have blistered feet.

He might have worn the smaller sized shoes to throw LE off.

I wonder if JY gave Cassidy Tylenol before he killed Michelle, thinking she would sleep through the murder, or after it to keep her asleep until Meredith arrived?

[Kat4Eagles]

I never saw anything about the funds so didn't consider that. Webpage doesn't factor in either. I've always found the 911 call to be very strange but after a long while wrote it off to shock as everyone was suggesting. Then the sw comes out where Jason tells his lover that MF counseled him on his relationship with Michelle. I thought that was weird. Now the newest sw's come out and show a lot of discrepancies in what MF had said about footprints, the keys, etc. I'm sure everything can be explained away individually but when added together it makes me go hmmmm. For some reason they won't arrest Jason or even name him a suspect. They call this case complicated. Why? Hopefully there will be an indictment handed down next week. Everything will come out. My suspicions will be put to rest once and for all.

eta: and the massive weight loss



Yeah, especially, the keys...!!

Why do you think that was necessary to put that out there now, if it doesn't have some importance or to something to do with the case?

Sounds like someone saw the pics and LE decided to do a preemptive
defensive strike...

Strange that this info is released at this time.

If it means nothing, who cares about the keys and where they were left?

Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

I disagree.

But, your posts are out there for everyone to see. Even Cassidy when she grows up.


:no:

At the rate this case is being solved, C will be able to choose where she wants to live .

And, all the posts about her Daddy are out there too, calling him a murderer .

Kat

[Jester]

He might have worn the smaller sized shoes to throw LE off.

I wonder if JY gave Cassidy Tylenol before he killed Michelle, thinking she would sleep through the murder, or after it to keep her asleep until Meredith arrived?

I think Jason planned for a soft kill. This is supported by his internet searches and the strangulation marks on her neck. Michelle obviously fought for her life, and Jason resorted to extreme violence. I think the struggle, which police early on described as taking about 10 - 15 minutes, woke Cassidy. I don't think Jason knew that she was awake until he was in the shower. When he came out of the shower, he found Cassidy tracking blood around the bedroom. I think he drugged her to help her sleep and then placed her in his bed before leaving.

It's also possible that he intended to give Cassidy a lethal dose of medication, and for her to be found near her mom by Meredith the following afternoon.

[Hey Paula]

Since he didn't try to collect the LI proceeds, I'm not sure it can be successfully argued as motive.

That is my understanding.

I really think it was a considerable part of the motive. But, JY learning his elaborate alibi wasn't ironclad as he'd hoped, and in view of what happened to Justin Barber because he tried to collect on April's policy,
didn't attempt to collect the proceeds from Michelle's LIP.

I've always felt that policy would be JY's undoing, one way or the other.

IMO

[Jester]

He may have already done that. I have often wondered that.

Maybe he appointed Michelle Money as guardian. He seems quite taken with her.

[Jester]

At the rate this case is being solved, C will be able to choose where she wants to live .

And, all the posts about her Daddy are out there too, calling him a murderer .

Kat

A judge has named Jason the slayer of Michelle, so of course people will refer to him as a murderer.

[alter ego]

I disagree.

But, your posts are out there for everyone to see. Even Cassidy when she grows up.


:no:Posts from a year ago aren't even around anymore but you think posts will be around in 10 years?

[Hey Paula]

I think Jason planned for a soft kill. This is supported by his internet searches and the strangulation marks on her neck. Michelle obviously fought for her life, and Jason resorted to extreme violence. I think the struggle, which police early on described as taking about 10 - 15 minutes, woke Cassidy. I don't think Jason knew that she was awake until he was in the shower. When he came out of the shower, he found Cassidy tracking blood around the bedroom. I think he drugged her to help her sleep and then placed her in his bed before leaving.

ITA! I've always believed a soft kill was attempted too. I think JY's grip on Michelle's neck might have slipped, which allowed her to temporarily escape.

I also believe Cassidy awoke during the struggle and entered the room while JY was in the shower and drugged her to keep her asleep after cleaning the blood from her feet.

[alter ego]

Yeah, especially, the keys...!!

Why do you think that was necessary to put that out there now, if it doesn't have some importance or to something to do with the case?

Sounds like someone saw the pics and LE decided to do a preemptive
defensive strike...

Strange that this info is released at this time.

If it means nothing, who cares about the keys and where they were left?

KatActually that warrant was in with a batch that was sealed 180 days ago after it took LE over a year to return them.

I see why they wanted that particular one sealed.

[alter ego]

Hi AE.

Yes. I know a lot of what has been put on here has been saved.

:thumbsup:Oh, so you would look up Cassidy in 10 years and deliberately show her posts that, by your own admission, will upset her?

How unkind and cruel.

:thumbdown:

[Kat4Eagles]

Posts from a year ago aren't even around anymore but you think posts will be around in 10 years?


Very true.

:)

Kat

[alter ego]

A judge has named Jason the slayer of Michelle, so of course people will refer to him as a murderer.People were calling Jason a murderer looooong before the default judgement was handed down naming him a slayer.

[Kat4Eagles]

Actually that warrant was in with a batch that was sealed 180 days ago after it took LE over a year to return them.

I see why they wanted that particular one sealed.


But, could they have left that part out somehow if they did not want that to be released.?


Kat

[alter ego]

But, could they have left that part out somehow if they did not want that to be released.


Kat
It appeared to be an integral part of the probable cause for that warrant.

[alter ego]

Absoultely not.

I think there are other reasons for the posts being saved.:wink:
You claimed they are 'out there for everyone to see'. How about a link to those posts.

And what, besides obsession, would be the reasons for the posts being saved?

[Kat4Eagles]

People were calling Jason a murderer looooong before the default judgement was handed down naming him a slayer.



Three months into the case, when I got here, Jason has been the murderer.

Very few people wanted to discuss any other theories or possibilities.

Thankfully, there was some.

Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

It appeared to be an integral part of the probable cause for that warrant.


Any ideas?

Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

Absoultely not.

I think there are other reasons for the posts being saved.:wink:


I think that is a good idea, some of us have taken quite a hit
for defending Jason.

:wink:

Kat

[Hey Paula]

Three months into the case, when I got here, Jason has been the murderer.

Very few people wanted to discuss any other theories or possibilities.

Thankfully, there was some.

Kat

From the beginning, the CE/number of coincidences in this case pointed overwhelmingly to JY as committing this murder.

IMO

[Hey Paula]

I think that is a good idea, some of us have taken quite a hit
for defending Jason.

:wink:

Kat

Why? To play devil's advocate?

[alter ego]

Any ideas?

KatNothing yet, still mulling it over.

[Jester]

ITA! I've always believed a soft kill was attempted too. I think JY's grip on Michelle's neck might have slipped, which allowed her to temporarily escape.

I also believe Cassidy awoke during the struggle and entered the room while JY was in the shower and drugged her to keep her asleep after cleaning the blood from her feet.

That scenario seems to make the most sense. I think Jason put Cassidy in her bathroom when he came out of the shower, as he needed to prevent her from tracking any more blood, he needed to get dressed, stage the robbery, and organize his thoughts. That explains the blood on the door and wall of Cassidy's bathroom. She was probably lying on the floor, crying, and kicking her feet on the door. After Jason was organized, he took her out of her bathroom, and washed her feet in his shower. Kingcole mentioned that there was one streak of blood in the master bathroom wall. Jason then put her to bed in her room, using various medications to make her sleep. This was a complication that he hadn't anticipated, so in his rush to get to his meeting he forgot about the drugs he left in Cassidy's bedroom.

For some reason, he moved Cassidy to his side of the bed in the master bedroom. The only explanation I can think of for this is that perhaps he intended to overdose Cassidy, and for mother and daughter to be found together. It may have been his plan to strangle Michelle, overdose Cassidy, and then have Meredith find both of them deceased, but appearing to be asleep.

It's easy to understand why he wouldn't talk to the police. How would he explain things like the drugs in Cassidy's room. There is no innocent explanation for them being there.

[Kat4Eagles]

From the beginning, the CE/number of coincidences in this case pointed overwhelmingly to JY as committing this murder.

IMO


But not enough to solve the case.

And, since it has gone on for over 2 years without an indictment or an arrest, it is okay to discuss other theories, right?

Thanxxx.

:)
Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

Nothing yet, still mulling it over.


I trust you will get back to me.

:)

Kat

[Jester]

People were calling Jason a murderer looooong before the default judgement was handed down naming him a slayer.

Having been labeled a slayer only confirms what people already knew.

[Jester]

Three months into the case, when I got here, Jason has been the murderer.

Very few people wanted to discuss any other theories or possibilities.

Thankfully, there was some.

Kat

Other theories and possibilities are now moot, as Jason has been named the slayer.

[annalyzer]

Other theories and possibilities are now moot, as Jason has been named the slayer.


No where has it been stated that he is solely responsible.

[Jester]

But not enough to solve the case.

And, since it has gone on for over 2 years without an indictment or an arrest, it is okay to discuss other theories, right?

Thanxxx.

:)
Kat

Of course. You can disagree with a judge, the police, and the most recent order handed down naming Jason the slayer. Any particular reason you want to take the position that all those people are wrong?

[Jester]

No where has it been stated that he is solely responsible.

No where is it stated that he is not solely responsible. At this time, Jason has been named the slayer. That, in my opinion, means he committed the murder.

[MerriMent]

Since he didn't try to collect the LI proceeds, I'm not sure it can be successfully argued as motive.

That is my understanding.

Mine, too...

[annalyzer]

snip~It's easy to understand why he wouldn't talk to the police. How would he explain things like the drugs in Cassidy's room. There is no innocent explanation for them being there.

How many different meds do you believe he gave to the child? There was several meds on the shelfs in her room. Looks to me like they were kept there in her room, why I don't know.

[MerriMent]

No where has it been stated that he is solely responsible.

ITA. In fact, the 11/08 warrant mentions LE's inability to rule Jason out as a participant. No mention at all about solely responsible.

[annalyzer]

None. But I assume the bashing of Cassidy's Aunt and Grandmother will continue here, even after Jason is arrested.

Also, if the theory holds true that he intended to give Cassidy a lethal dose of meds, he will be looking at attempted murder charges as well.

But posters here are worrying about the placement of keys?

:shrug:

I'm not bashing anyone by exploring the possibility that MF was Jason's accomplice. The placement of the keys is the least of what makes me suspicious of her.

[MerriMent]

How many different meds do you believe he gave to the child? There was several meds on the shelfs in her room. Looks to me like they were kept there in her room, why I don't know.

I think the only thing given to her was the adult Tylenol. According to the warrant, red residue in the dropper matched the Tylenol.

[alter ego]

Other theories and possibilities are now moot, as Jason has been named the slayer.
No they are not moot.

Jason was named a slayer based on a very low burden of proof.

In fact, it was based on the OPINION of one law enforcement officer. Sure hope his obvious bias doesn't end up biting the DA in the back end.

[Jester]

None. But I assume the bashing of Cassidy's Aunt and Grandmother will continue here, even after Jason is arrested.

Also, if the theory holds true that he intended to give Cassidy a lethal dose of meds, he will be looking at attempted murder charges as well.

But posters here are worrying about the placement of keys?

:shrug:

The criticism of the family is truly unfortunate, and difficult to comprehend. One conclusion that can be drawn is that everyone, those who believe Jason is guilty and those who disagree with the latest ruling, agree that the person that murdered Michelle was close to her. Jason is the obvious suspect, but some prefer to focus on Meredith because she was lured to the scene by Jason. Some prefer to criticize half of Cassidy's family for not making a custody application at the time of the murder, but give the other half of her family a pass. It's not logical by any means.

[Hey Paula]

That scenario seems to make the most sense. I think Jason put Cassidy in her bathroom when he came out of the shower, as he needed to prevent her from tracking any more blood, he needed to get dressed, stage the robbery, and organize his thoughts. That explains the blood on the door and wall of Cassidy's bathroom. She was probably lying on the floor, crying, and kicking her feet on the door. After Jason was organized, he took her out of her bathroom, and washed her feet in his shower. Kingcole mentioned that there was one streak of blood in the master bathroom wall. Jason then put her to bed in her room, using various medications to make her sleep. This was a complication that he hadn't anticipated, so in his rush to get to his meeting he forgot about the drugs he left in Cassidy's bedroom.

For some reason, he moved Cassidy to his side of the bed in the master bedroom. The only explanation I can think of for this is that perhaps he intended to overdose Cassidy, and for mother and daughter to be found together. It may have been his plan to strangle Michelle, overdose Cassidy, and then have Meredith find both of them deceased, but appearing to be asleep.

It's easy to understand why he wouldn't talk to the police. How would he explain things like the drugs in Cassidy's room. There is no innocent explanation for them being there.

I wonder why he didn't put Cassidy in her own bed after sedating her? To leave that poor baby in that bed in the middle of the murder scene, where she could see her bludgeoned mother lying in a pool of blood, is troubling.

On the 911 tape, I distinctly heard Cassidy say "daddy did it". I think Cassidy's words might very well have been the first indication of JY actually committing this crime, even though his unusual request for Meredith to retrieve the document was suspicious in and of itself.

IMO

[Kat4Eagles]

ITA. In fact, the 11/08 warrant mentions LE's inability to rule Jason out as a participant. No mention at all about solely responsible.



Yep, exactly.

The wording is "accessory" before or after the fact of murder.

Kat

[Jester]

Mine, too...

The life insurance policy can still be argued as motive, along with Jason's romantic relationship with Michelle Money, and his desire to have a responsibility-free lifestyle (like he has now). The life insurance policy would have cleaned up the family debt, a responsibility that Jason probably didn't want.

Although Jason did not make a claim for the money, it's rather obvious that he would have made a claim if the police had bought into his alibi. The continued suspicion on Jason left him facing two possibilities: make a claim and answer questions about the murder, or remain silent and forget about the money. Clearly Jason is really concerned about answering questions about the murder.

[Jester]

Kat said she has family in LE? Maybe she knows better than the judge and the police?

I guess it's possible that people who have family in LE have a reason not to trust the police. I generally assume they're professional in what they do.

[annalyzer]

Grand jury Tuesday? Let's hope there's an indictment.

[Kat4Eagles]

I'm not bashing anyone by exploring the possibility that MF was Jason's accomplice. The placement of the keys is the least of what makes me suspicious of her.


Could be, but the fact that they were included in the s/w sure is strange.

Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

Grand jury Tuesday? Let's hope there's an indictment.



Is this a GJ week?

I can only imagine the pressure is on now..although, it should have been on the entire 2 years.

Kat

[MerriMent]

No they are not moot.

Jason was named a slayer based on a very low burden of proof.

In fact, it was based on the OPINION of one law enforcement officer. Sure hope his obvious bias doesn't end up biting the DA in the back end.

It will bite the officer in the back end before it will ever bite the DA, especially if the DA becomes U.S. Attorney who might decide an federal investigation of the local yokel investigators is in order.

[Jester]

How many different meds do you believe he gave to the child? There was several meds on the shelfs in her room. Looks to me like they were kept there in her room, why I don't know.

I have no idea, but there were several different types of medication, so maybe he gave her a little of everything. I can't imagine that Michelle would leave adult drug samples in her 2 year old daughter's room. That contradicts everything we know about Michelle being a responsible, caring mother, employee, and her reputation at University. I think every responsible mother knows not to leave drugs where a young child can see them, find them, or take them.

[Lindsey]

Other theories and possibilities are now moot, as Jason has been named the slayer.

In a civil court judgment, not criminal. In fact, if I'm understanding it correctly the civil judgment of Slayer cannot be used in a criminal trial. I don't think other theories and possibilities are moot until we have an indictment, trial, and conviction in a criminal court.

IMO

[Kat4Eagles]

I think the only thing given to her was the adult Tylenol. According to the warrant, red residue in the dropper matched the Tylenol.


I don't think Jason would have done that to C..

I am also really curious why they think C may have been taken from the home..

Not likely someone was going to take her to ChuckECheese in the middle of the nite.

Thoughts?

Kat

[alter ego]

I wonder why he didn't put Cassidy in her own bed after sedating her? To leave that poor baby in that bed in the middle of the murder scene, where she could see her bludgeoned mother lying in a pool of blood, is troubling.

On the 911 tape, I distinctly heard Cassidy say "daddy did it". I think Cassidy's words might very well have been the first indication of JY actually committing this crime, even though his unusual request for Meredith to retrieve the document was suspicious in and of itself.

IMOI'm not convinced she was left in the bed. She was said to have been found in the bed and also that she was walking around.

I don't hear anything of the sort. I do hear Meredith claim there are tiny footprints in blood all over the house - something that does not appear to be the case. :shrug:

[MerriMent]

The life insurance policy can still be argued as motive, along with Jason's romantic relationship with Michelle Money, and his desire to have a responsibility-free lifestyle (like he has now). The life insurance policy would have cleaned up the family debt, a responsibility that Jason probably didn't want.

Although Jason did not make a claim for the money, it's rather obvious that he would have made a claim if the police had bought into his alibi. The continued suspicion on Jason left him facing two possibilities: make a claim and answer questions about the murder, or remain silent and forget about the money. Clearly Jason is really concerned about answering questions about the murder.

Clearly, it bugs you that Jason's managed to get the insurance directed at his daughter without him saying a word. :tonguewag:

[Kat4Eagles]

In a civil court judgment, not criminal. In fact, if I'm understanding it correctly the civil judgment of Slayer cannot be used in a criminal trial. I don't think other theories and possibilities are moot until we have an indictment, trial, and conviction in a criminal court.

IMO


:seeya:
Thank you!!
I thought it was still open for discussion too.

:)
Kat

[alter ego]

Grand jury Tuesday? Let's hope there's an indictment.What will they have Tuesday that they didn't have for all the GJ sessions in the last 6 months?

[MerriMent]

I don't think Jason would have done that to C..

I am also really curious why they think C may have been taken from the home..

Not likely someone was going to take her to ChuckECheese in the middle of the nite.

Thoughts?

Kat

ok: C was taken from the home because Meredith didn't want to leave her alone and risk her awakening and seeing her mother.

[Kat4Eagles]

I'm not convinced she was left in the bed. She was said to have been found in the bed and also that she was walking around.

I don't hear anything of the sort. I do hear Meredith claim there are tiny footprints in blood all over the house - something that does not appear to be the case. :shrug:


Plus, she was supposedly found under the sheets, but I thought the sheets were covered with blood.

That is what she says in the 911 call, anyway.

Blood in the bed.

Kat

[Hey Paula]

The life insurance policy can still be argued as motive, along with Jason's romantic relationship with Michelle Money, and his desire to have a responsibility-free lifestyle (like he has now). The life insurance policy would have cleaned up the family debt, a responsibility that Jason probably didn't want.

Although Jason did not make a claim for the money, it's rather obvious that he would have made a claim if the police had bought into his alibi. The continued suspicion on Jason left him facing two possibilities: make a claim and answer questions about the murder, or remain silent and forget about the money. Clearly Jason is really concerned about answering questions about the murder.

ITA! At that point, it was his freedom or fighting for the LIP proceeds. I have no doubt that Michelle's policy was a motivator, in addition to JY wanting to be free of his wife.

Has any info re Michelle's discussion with the therapist been released? I see that searches of gay bars in NY were found on JY's computer.

[Jester]

I wonder why he didn't put Cassidy in her own bed after sedating her? To leave that poor baby in that bed in the middle of the murder scene, where she could see her bludgeoned mother lying in a pool of blood, is troubling.

On the 911 tape, I distinctly heard Cassidy say "daddy did it". I think Cassidy's words might very well have been the first indication of JY actually committing this crime, even though his unusual request for Meredith to retrieve the document was suspicious in and of itself.

IMO

I think Jason drugged Cassidy in her room, and put her to sleep there. For some reason, he then moved her to his bed. That doesn't sit well with me unless he planned to overdose her. Alternatively, it means that he wanted Cassidy to wake up in the middle of a murder scene. Either scenario is very cruel.

Jason's request for Meredith to retrieve the document is blatantly staged. We know now that the document was outdated, and useless. There was no reason for it to be retrieved, so it's clearly a ruse to lure Meredith to the murder scene. He didn't want to be the person to report the crime, as he would have had to answer to the police. Jason was not in any rush to have Meredith arrive at the scene, as he didn't call her until 12:10 in the afternoon. He may have had no concerns that Cassidy would wake up to the murder scene, so he didn't place the call earlier in the day.

[Lindsey]

I'm not bashing anyone by exploring the possibility that MF was Jason's accomplice. The placement of the keys is the least of what makes me suspicious of her.

I hear you. If anyone had posted anything about the keys before this week, they would have been accused of bashing MF. Now we see it in an official search warrant. Wonder what else we haven't heard about that could be suspicious. Or has it been swept under the rug because it doesn't point straight to Jason.

JMO

[Kat4Eagles]

What will they have Tuesday that they didn't have for all the GJ sessions in the last 6 months?


The slayer ruling??
No, I know it can not be used.
Right?

Kat

[alter ego]

The slayer ruling??
No, I know it can not be used.
Right?

KatNope, it can't be used.

I'm off to bed, G'night everyone :closedeyes:


:seeya:

[Jester]

ITA! At that point, it was his freedom or fighting for the LIP proceeds. I have no doubt that Michelle's policy was a motivator, in addition to JY wanting to be free of his wife.

Has any info re Michelle's discussion with the therapist been released? I see that searches of gay bars in NY were found on JY's computer.

No information has been released about the therapist notes. I can't imagine why Jason was interested in gay bars, unless he's bi-curious. Some of his comments to co-workers give the impression he was rather preoccupied with sex, so maybe he was looking for a sexual adventure.

[Silsbee]

You have to speak for yourself there. I have been able to shake it. I don't believe everything that is posted on the internet. You have to make sure that it is accurate. The poster corrected the mistake. The misinformation came from a source that wanted to deflect attention away from the person that has been judged to be the killer of his wife. I can understand where the confusion came from but it was corrected LOOOOOOONG ago. IMO

Barbara,
I think that we all have to decide for ourselves if info posted on the boards is true. Even posters you think are trust worthy can get it wrong if they are being fed misinformation.

Having said that, there was a poster in the beginning that a lot of poster's trusted that corroborated RPD's story about Meredith. He defended RPD after all of the fall about her imminent arrest not taking place. I have no idea if the story is true but often wonder about it because of this poster. I don't know if I still have his post and even if I did I'm not sure if I would be allowed to post it.

I remember him saying at the time the "ugliness" with Meredith was happening and true. He said something to the effect that only after some calm and reason intervened did things not escalate out of control.
I have always remembered this info for some reason so while I have to give the benefit of the doubt to Meredith I have never disregarded her just because she is Michelle's sister. This is not and never has been personal to me so I have no trouble looking at everyone involved. After the latest SW I am not comfortable with her inconsistencies. Whether they mean anything or not I can't say but it does make me go hmmm.

If the situation with Meredith did happen it still does not prove murder but to say it did not happen just because you think there was a misunderstanding does not mean it didn't. I have compassion and empathy for everyone that was personally touched by Michelle's death but that doesn't mean I can't look at Meredith and Linda as imperfect people. I think some people forget that. They are not perfect and they may have made mistakes just like a lot of people do. It's those posters that believe they can do no wrong that I don't understand.

Sils

[Kat4Eagles]

I hear you. If anyone had posted anything about the keys before this week, they would have been accused of bashing MF. Now we see it in an official search warrant. Wonder what else we haven't heard about that could be suspicious. Or has it been swept under the rug because it doesn't point straight to Jason.

JMO


As long as there are 2 different shoe prints, there will always be a
mystery to who they both belong to.

I think they were trying to get the key problem out of the way, only trouble is, it doesn't make sense.

And, then if you throw in the fact, that they think C may have been taken from the home, it makes it even stranger.

We had never heard anything like this before.

Kat

[Hey Paula]

I'm not convinced she was left in the bed. She was said to have been found in the bed and also that she was walking around.

I don't hear anything of the sort. I do hear Meredith claim there are tiny footprints in blood all over the house - something that does not appear to be the case. :shrug:

But Cassidy's feet were clean, which means they were cleaned after she walked in her mother's blood.

Why would Meredith say there were tiny footprints in blood (all over the house might have been an exaggeration on Meredith's part) if there weren't, knowing LE would witness the actual scene upon their arrival?

[annalyzer]

Could be, but the fact that they were included in the s/w sure is strange.

Kat

Yes it is.

[MerriMent]

I'm not convinced she was left in the bed. She was said to have been found in the bed and also that she was walking around.

I don't hear anything of the sort. I do hear Meredith claim there are tiny footprints in blood all over the house - something that does not appear to be the case. :shrug:

Doesn't sound as though LE believe the 'in bed, under sheet' story either and that's why they mentioned it. In bed under the covers is quite a stretch but then, Meredith has never parented a toddler. A normal toddler would have climbed out of the bed and looking for Mom as did Ava Worthington and Blake Davis.

[Kat4Eagles]

Barbara,
I think that we all have to decide for ourselves if info posted on the boards is true. Even posters you think are trust worthy can get it wrong if they are being fed misinformation.

Having said that, there was a poster in the beginning that a lot of poster's trusted that corroborated RPD's story about Meredith. He defended RPD after all of the fall about her imminent arrest not taking place. I have no idea if the story is true but often wonder about it because of this poster. I don't know if I still have his post and even if I did I'm not sure if I would be allowed to post it.

I remember him saying at the time the "ugliness" with Meredith was happening and true. He said something to the effect that only after some calm and reason intervened did things not escalate out of control.
I have always remembered this info for some reason so while I have to give the benefit of the doubt to Meredith I have never disregarded her just because she is Michelle's sister. This is not and never has been personal to me so I have no trouble looking at everyone involved. After the latest SW I am not comfortable with her inconsistencies. Whether they mean anything or not I can't say but it does make me go hmmm.

If the situation with Meredith did happen it still does not prove murder but to say it did not happen just because you think there was a misunderstanding does not mean it didn't. I have compassion and empathy for everyone that was personally touched by Michelle's death but that doesn't mean I can't look at Meredith and Linda as imperfect people. I think some people forget that. They are not perfect and they may have made mistakes just like a lot of people do. It's those posters that believe they can do no wrong that I don't understand.

Sils

Wow, I knew I missed you for other reasons. :beer:

Very interesting, to say the least.

Kat

[Lindsey]

Barbara,
I think that we all have to decide for ourselves if info posted on the boards is true. Even posters you think are trust worthy can get it wrong if they are being fed misinformation.

Having said that, there was a poster in the beginning that a lot of poster's trusted that corroborated RPD's story about Meredith. He defended RPD after all of the fall about her imminent arrest not taking place. I have no idea if the story is true but often wonder about it because of this poster. I don't know if I still have his post and even if I did I'm not sure if I would be allowed to post it.

I remember him saying at the time the "ugliness" with Meredith was happening and true. He said something to the effect that only after some calm and reason intervened did things not escalate out of control.
I have always remembered this info for some reason so while I have to give the benefit of the doubt to Meredith I have never disregarded her just because she is Michelle's sister. This is not and never has been personal to me so I have no trouble looking at everyone involved. After the latest SW I am not comfortable with her inconsistencies. Whether they mean anything or not I can't say but it does make me go hmmm.

If the situation with Meredith did happen it still does not prove murder but to say it did not happen just because you think there was a misunderstanding does not mean it didn't. I have compassion and empathy for everyone that was personally touched by Michelle's death but that doesn't mean I can't look at Meredith and Linda as imperfect people. I think some people forget that. They are not perfect and they may have made mistakes just like a lot of people do. It's those posters that believe they can do no wrong that I don't understand.

Sils

I vote this the Post Of The Day!

I had forgotten that other poster you mention but I do remember it now. Well respected poster.

IMO

[Kat4Eagles]

I vote this the Post Of The Day!

I had forgotten that other poster you mention but I do remember it now. Well respected poster.

IMO


I second the nomination!!

Thank you.

Kat

[Silsbee]

That scenario seems to make the most sense. I think Jason put Cassidy in her bathroom when he came out of the shower, as he needed to prevent her from tracking any more blood, he needed to get dressed, stage the robbery, and organize his thoughts. That explains the blood on the door and wall of Cassidy's bathroom. She was probably lying on the floor, crying, and kicking her feet on the door. After Jason was organized, he took her out of her bathroom, and washed her feet in his shower. Kingcole mentioned that there was one streak of blood in the master bathroom wall. Jason then put her to bed in her room, using various medications to make her sleep. This was a complication that he hadn't anticipated, so in his rush to get to his meeting he forgot about the drugs he left in Cassidy's bedroom.

For some reason, he moved Cassidy to his side of the bed in the master bedroom. The only explanation I can think of for this is that perhaps he intended to overdose Cassidy, and for mother and daughter to be found together. It may have been his plan to strangle Michelle, overdose Cassidy, and then have Meredith find both of them deceased, but appearing to be asleep.

It's easy to understand why he wouldn't talk to the police. How would he explain things like the drugs in Cassidy's room. There is no innocent explanation for them being there.

What kept Cassie in the bathroom? Bathrooms in my home lock from the inside not the outside.

I don't find any logical reason to move her to his bed. It makes no sense if she was already asleep in her own. If he intended to make her overdose then why use the dropper? Why not just make her take a huge swig or mix it in something she would be willing to drink?

Sils

[MerriMent]

I hear you. If anyone had posted anything about the keys before this week, they would have been accused of bashing MF. Now we see it in an official search warrant. Wonder what else we haven't heard about that could be suspicious. Or has it been swept under the rug because it doesn't point straight to Jason.

JMO

I wonder if Spivey will still be on this case tomorrow.

[Lindsey]

But Cassidy's feet were clean, which means they were cleaned after she walked in her mother's blood.

Why would Meredith say there were tiny footprints in blood (all over the house might have been an exaggeration on Meredith's part) if there weren't, knowing LE would witness the actual scene upon their arrival?


Good question. Even better question is how did MF know there were bloody footprints in Cassidy's bathroom before she called 911?


Is anybody else having trouble with the board loading so slow? Like molasses.

[Kat4Eagles]

Doesn't sound as though LE believe the 'in bed, under sheet' story either and that's why they mentioned it. In bed under the covers is quite a stretch but then, Meredith has never parented a toddler. A normal toddler would have climbed out of the bed and looking for Mom as did Ava Worthington and Blake Davis.


So, C was in bed, but knew Michelle had been hurt, and then asks for a washcloth?

What did she need the washcloth for, if she was clean?

Kat

[Hey Paula]

No information has been released about the therapist notes. I can't imagine why Jason was interested in gay bars, unless he's bi-curious. Some of his comments to co-workers give the impression he was rather preoccupied with sex, so maybe he was looking for a sexual adventure.

IIRC, didn't that therapist specialize in transgender issues?

[Kat4Eagles]

Good question. Even better question is how did MF know there were bloody footprints in Cassidy's bathroom before she called 911?


Is anybody else having trouble with the board loading so slow? Like molasses.



Another good question..

Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

I wonder if Spivey will still be on this case tomorrow.

What makes you say that?

Kat

[Silsbee]

I vote this the Post Of The Day!

I had forgotten that other poster you mention but I do remember it now. Well respected poster.

IMO

Wow, thanks Lindsey and Kat. :blushing:

I hadn't intended to be so long winded but it has been a while since I have been able to post and so... can you tell I have been thinking a lot about all that has happened.

I wish I could remember the poster's nic. When I have time I will look for it.

ETA: IIRC he lived in Michelle's neighborhood.

Sils

[Hey Paula]

Good question. Even better question is how did MF know there were bloody footprints in Cassidy's bathroom before she called 911?


Is anybody else having trouble with the board loading so slow? Like molasses.

Do we know for sure that Meredith didn't see footprints in Cassidy's bathroom before she dialed 911?

I'm not having any trouble with the board moving slowly.

[MerriMent]

Barbara,
I think that we all have to decide for ourselves if info posted on the boards is true. Even posters you think are trust worthy can get it wrong if they are being fed misinformation.

Having said that, there was a poster in the beginning that a lot of poster's trusted that corroborated RPD's story about Meredith. He defended RPD after all of the fall about her imminent arrest not taking place. I have no idea if the story is true but often wonder about it because of this poster. I don't know if I still have his post and even if I did I'm not sure if I would be allowed to post it.

I remember him saying at the time the "ugliness" with Meredith was happening and true. He said something to the effect that only after some calm and reason intervened did things not escalate out of control.
I have always remembered this info for some reason so while I have to give the benefit of the doubt to Meredith I have never disregarded her just because she is Michelle's sister. This is not and never has been personal to me so I have no trouble looking at everyone involved. After the latest SW I am not comfortable with her inconsistencies. Whether they mean anything or not I can't say but it does make me go hmmm.

If the situation with Meredith did happen it still does not prove murder but to say it did not happen just because you think there was a misunderstanding does not mean it didn't. I have compassion and empathy for everyone that was personally touched by Michelle's death but that doesn't mean I can't look at Meredith and Linda as imperfect people. I think some people forget that. They are not perfect and they may have made mistakes just like a lot of people do. It's those posters that believe they can do no wrong that I don't understand.

Sils

Good post! I don't understand it either. It's not just the 911 call but also the comments about MF's behavior at the wake that caught my attention. If the goal is justice for Michelle then all possibilities must be examined. What I do find strange is the continual usage of 'The Fishers' as though Meredith and her mother are one unit at all times and I've considered the possibility that Linda Fisher has been from the very beginning covering up for Meredith.

[Kat4Eagles]

Wow, thanks Lindsey and Kat. :blushing:

I hadn't intended to be so long winded but it has been a while since I have been able to post and so... can you tell I have been thinking a lot about all that has happened.

I wish I could remember the poster's nic. When I have time I will look for it.

ETA: IIRC he lived in Michelle's neighborhood.

Sils


Lol, I get the long winded nomination by a landslide.
Nice try, !!
Was it Raleigh Resident?

Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

Good post! I don't understand it either. It's not just the 911 call but also the comments about MF's behavior at the wake that caught my attention. If the goal is justice for Michelle then all possibilities must be examined. What I do find strange is the continual usage of 'The Fishers' as though Meredith and her mother are one unit at all times and I've considered the possibility that Linda Fisher has been from the very beginning covering up for Meredith.


I agree , I have always believed when L E said they were looking at everyone close to Michelle, that they meant it.

I mean, we can not overlook Jason...but, I still see a lot of problems with him pulling this off , and if I can, think what a good defense attorney could do.

Kat

[MerriMent]

What makes you say that?

Kat

Spivey has publicly accused JY of murder and claims there is evidence unseen by the public that proves it. That's quite an accusation to make considering Jason has not been arrested. The Judge made it clear his order is based on Spivey's declarations to the court.

[Lindsey]

I agree , I have always believed when L E said they were looking at everyone close to Michelle, that they meant it.

I mean, we can not overlook Jason...but, I still see a lot of problems with him pulling this off , and if I can, think what a good defense attorney could do.

Kat


Maybe the DA has the same problem and that's why he hasn't taken it to the GJ yet?

I think we are about 5 pages over on this thread if CW wants it kept to no more than 15. Might be time to start a new one for Monday morning?

Goodnight all.

[MerriMent]

Do we know for sure that Meredith didn't see footprints in Cassidy's bathroom before she dialed 911?

I'm not having any trouble with the board moving slowly.

Unless MF has eyes in the back of her head, it would be nearly impossible to see the bathroom floor while ascending the main staircase and absolutely impossible if she approached the master bedroom from the back staircase.

[Hey Paula]

Spivey has publicly accused JY of murder and claims there is evidence unseen by the public that proves it. That's quite an accusation to make considering Jason has not been arrested. The Judge made it clear his order is based on Spivey's declarations to the court.

If that accusation was false, why hasn't a lawsuit been filed against Spivey?

I wonder if the "evidence unseen by the public" was listed in Spivey's declarations to the Court?

[MerriMent]

Maybe the DA has the same problem and that's why he hasn't taken it to the GJ yet?

I think we are about 5 pages over on this thread if CW wants it kept to no more than 15. Might be time to start a new one for Monday morning?

Goodnight all.

If there are huge holes in the investigation a defense attorney can drive a truck through, the DA is going to hold off on an indictment. Spivey's bias is a defense attorney's dream if the goal is to indict Jason Young.

[Kat4Eagles]

Maybe the DA has the same problem and that's why he hasn't taken it to the GJ yet?

I think we are about 5 pages over on this thread if CW wants it kept to no more than 15. Might be time to start a new one for Monday morning?

Goodnight all.

Yep, a new thread sometime tomorrow would be good, but this is such an interesting discussion.!!

Nite everyone.

:)
Kat

[MerriMent]

If that accusation was false, why hasn't a lawsuit been filed against Spivey?

I wonder if the "evidence unseen by the public" was listed in Spivey's declarations to the Court?

The accusation was just made...plenty of time to file a lawsuit. I think the statute of limitations is a year or maybe more. And, no, the "evidence unseen by the public" was not detailed in Spivey's affadavit.

[Leanne Weich]

I don't think Jason would have done that to C..

I am also really curious why they think C may have been taken from the home..

Not likely someone was going to take her to ChuckECheese in the middle of the nite.

Thoughts?

Kat

You didn't believe Jason was having an affair with MM either. Remember, heloved MY so much he married her twice. I wonder if the other med (the one Jason tried to sell to Drs - Pancof or whatever) was also red.

[Cardinal]

Barbara,
I think that we all have to decide for ourselves if info posted on the boards is true. Even posters you think are trust worthy can get it wrong if they are being fed misinformation.

Having said that, there was a poster in the beginning that a lot of poster's trusted that corroborated RPD's story about Meredith. He defended RPD after all of the fall about her imminent arrest not taking place. I have no idea if the story is true but often wonder about it because of this poster. I don't know if I still have his post and even if I did I'm not sure if I would be allowed to post it.

I remember him saying at the time the "ugliness" with Meredith was happening and true. He said something to the effect that only after some calm and reason intervened did things not escalate out of control.
I have always remembered this info for some reason so while I have to give the benefit of the doubt to Meredith I have never disregarded her just because she is Michelle's sister. This is not and never has been personal to me so I have no trouble looking at everyone involved. After the latest SW I am not comfortable with her inconsistencies. Whether they mean anything or not I can't say but it does make me go hmmm.

If the situation with Meredith did happen it still does not prove murder but to say it did not happen just because you think there was a misunderstanding does not mean it didn't. I have compassion and empathy for everyone that was personally touched by Michelle's death but that doesn't mean I can't look at Meredith and Linda as imperfect people. I think some people forget that. They are not perfect and they may have made mistakes just like a lot of people do. It's those posters that believe they can do no wrong that I don't understand.

Sils

Well said, Silsbee. :smile:

[JHP]

You didn't believe Jason was having an affair with MM either. Remember, heloved MY so much he married her twice. I wonder if the other med (the one Jason tried to sell to Drs - Pancof or whatever) was also red.


Yes, he also tried to kill her twice, is now responsible for killing 2 of her babies to be.
2 is a big number for him I guess.

What a great guy.

JMO

[Barbara2]

RaleighResident also told us in the early posts that Jason left Raleigh at 4 p.m. That turned out to be inaccurate as well. There were a lot of things posted in the beginning that were incorrect because misinformation was being given out either intentionally or unintentionally by some close to the case. IMO. It is a shame that even though the mistakes were corrected back then, they are still being repeated as fact two years later.

[Kat4Eagles]

You didn't believe Jason was having an affair with MM either. Remember, heloved MY so much he married her twice. I wonder if the other med (the one Jason tried to sell to Drs - Pancof or whatever) was also red.


:no:

Nope, you are wrong there.

I never said Jason did not have something going with MM.

But, I did think he loved Michelle and that they loved each other
enough to get married twice.

Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

Yikes....this thread is getting ginormous. Hope you don't mind...I am going to start a new one.

Thanks all!

FYI, a mod has to approve it first. Sorry! Hopefully it will be there soon.


Oops, I tried to start one too.
Thank you.

Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

RaleighResident also told us in the early posts that Jason left Raleigh at 4 p.m. That turned out to be inaccurate as well. There were a lot of things posted in the beginning that were incorrect because misinformation was being given out either intentionally or unintentionally by some close to the case. IMO. It is a shame that even though the mistakes were corrected back then, they are still being repeated as fact two years later.


This works both ways.

When someone posted a story about Jason swallowing a ring, it was accepted as fact.

When someone posted that the car accident was a murder attempt, that too was supposed to be fact.

When someone posted, Jason tried to drown Michelle, same thing.

For people, who just drop by and read once in awhile here, they do not know if a story has been retracted or not.

That is why, even if you retract something, it is still always "there".


Kat

[karen]

:no:

Nope, you are wrong there.

I never said Jason did not have something going with MM.

But, I did think he loved Michelle and that they loved each other
enough to get married twice.

Kat


Really? Is that what you really think? How could he LOVE her Kat? I think he did in the beginning but he is a womanizer(being involved in multiple relationships with women," and marriage did'nt fit with him.

[Kat4Eagles]

For anyone who is interested (and I realize that some will find this implausible)...but...here is my take on the SUV S/W and the keys and other inconsistencies:

I believe that Meredith created her original statement for them while still in some sort of shock and wrote down the events as she believed they happened. It may not have been until later that many things got cleared up -- when she had a clearer head. The dog theory about the keys is quite plausible to me, given that Meredith specifically mentioned the dog going crazy in the 911 call. As for the sheets being bloody, for someone under duress seeing half of a bed covered in blood versus the whole bed would still be "the bed is covered in blood."

I believe the cops had to pursue her as a possible suspect until they could clear up the inconsistencies. I believe they made that particular S/W to explore these things and found NOTHING when it was all said and done. There was a logical explanation for the stuff. I then believe they kept the S/W sealed for as long as they could because they realized it may make an innocent victim in all of this look like she may be involved.

I do think that LE looked at her. But, based on the most recent SWs executed, along with Spivey's statement -- I believe they ruled her out after the search warrant (and possibly rumored polygraph??) and kept it sealed to protect her.

So, it seems to that the investigators didn't have a one-track mind to begin with...it is just the others got ruled out.


Wait, though.....

Didn't MF need those keys to enter the home, it sure does not look that way.....
Would she use the keys, open the door, then lay the keys back on the top of a car.??
Her habit was to lay keys on the kitchen counter.
Or if your hands were full, then the closest convenient place?


Kat

[Barbara2]

I've not seen any of those stories that you just mentioned brought up in MONTHS until you brought them up just now. I certainly don't see the stories repeated over and over and over (ad nauseum). The last time they were brought up, I believe it was at that time also by someone who thinks Jason is innocent.

[Kat4Eagles]

Really? Is that what you really think? How could he LOVE her Kat? I think he did in the beginning but he is a womanizer(being involved in multiple relationships with women," and marriage did'nt fit with him.


I meant that I thought he loved her back then, yes, I do question his love for Michelle now.

Sorry, but I also question whether he would kill her just for those reasons.

Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

I've not seen any of those stories that you just mentioned brought up in MONTHS until you brought them up just now. I certainly don't see the stories repeated over and over and over (ad nauseum). The last time they were brought up, I believe it was at that time also by someone who thinks Jason is innocent.

I also do not see any of those stories in the s/w, gosh, do you think maybe they were not true, ?

I mean, if they were, compiled with all the other stuff, Jason would be hanging his Xmas stocking in jail.
:rolleyes:

Kat

[Barbara2]

I also do not see any of those stories in the s/w, gosh, do you think maybe they were not true, ?

I mean, if they were, compiled with all the other stuff, Jason would be hanging his Xmas stocking in jail.
:rolleyes:

Kat

So why do you keep bringing up these non-stories for discussion??? :shrug:

[JHP]

Wait, though.....

Didn't MF need those keys to enter the home, it sure does not look that way.....
Would she use the keys, open the door, then lay the keys back on the top of a car.??
Her habit was to lay keys on the kitchen counter.
Or if your hands were full, then the closest convenient place?


Kat

What if she unlocked and opened the door, the dog(who was freaking out), was jumping all over her. So she put the keys down on the car to let him out. Forgot about the keys cause she was trying to figure out what was going on. She went in the unlocked door and found what she found and simply forgot where she placed her keys.

[Kat4Eagles]

What if she unlocked and opened the door, the dog(who was freaking out), was jumping all over her. So she put the keys down on the car to let him out. Forgot about the keys cause she was trying to figure out what was going on. She went in the unlocked door and found what she found and simply forgot where she placed her keys.



So,if the dog was jumping all over her, are there bloody dog prints anywhere in the home?'

Maybe the killer(s) , or accomplices/accessories took C and the dog for a ride?

Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

So why do you keep bringing up these non-stories for discussion??? :shrug:


Because they are all part of the discussion that has gone on here for over 2 years..

And, if they were not true, then perhaps other stories were not true as well.

Kat

[JHP]

So,if the dog was jumping all over her, are the bloody dog prints anywhere in the home?'

Kat

I suspect the murderer kept the dog away from the crime scene. Just a guess.

[karen]

So,if the dog was jumping all over her, are the bloody dog prints anywhere in the home?'

Kat

I could swear that I heard that the dog was in the downstairs bathroom barking and MF let him out. Maybe I am wrong, I don't remember where I heard that.:unsure:



Anyway this speaks volumes to me-

"He has worked almost exclusively on the investigation for over a year and a half, and, as he also states in his current Affidavit, is familiar with the evidence gathered during the ivestigation, including evidence that is not public record. Based upon his knowledge of the evidence gathered in the investigation of the death of Michelle Young and his experience in law enforcement, Investigator Spivey is of the opinion that Jason Young murdered Michelle Young on November 3, 2006."

http://wake.mync.com/site/wake/news%7CCommunity%7CSports%7CLifestyles/story/21101/warrants-child-of-murdered-wake-woman-may-have-been-drugged

[Kat4Eagles]

I suspect the murderer kept the dog away from the crime scene. Just a guess.


But, if the dog was waiting for MF inside, how could he have not also had access to Michelle and C?

Kat

[JHP]

But, if the dog was waiting for MF inside, how could he have not also had access to Michelle and C?

Kat

Maybe there was a gate or a way to keep the dog downstairs. I just saw your comment about driving Cassidy and the dog.

Does Meredith have a key to Michelles car? Do you think Meredith drove around town with her keys on the car?

[Kat4Eagles]

I could swear that I heard that the dog was in the downstairs bathroom barking and MF let him out. Maybe I am wrong, I don't remember where I heard that.:unsure:



Anyway this speaks volumes to me-

"He has worked almost exclusively on the investigation for over a year and a half, and, as he also states in his current Affidavit, is familiar with the evidence gathered during the ivestigation, including evidence that is not public record. Based upon his knowledge of the evidence gathered in the investigation of the death of Michelle Young and his experience in law enforcement, Investigator Spivey is of the opinion that Jason Young murdered Michelle Young on November 3, 2006."

http://wake.mync.com/site/wake/news%7CCommunity%7CSports%7CLifestyles/story/21101/warrants-child-of-murdered-wake-woman-may-have-been-drugged


I don't think it has ever been confirmed where Mr. G was found..

And,yes that is the Detective's opinion, but we still get to ask "why no arrest?", if what he has , is all that..

Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

Maybe there was a gate or a way to keep the dog downstairs. I just saw your comment about driving Cassidy and the dog.

Does Meredith have a key to Michelles car? Do you think Meredith drove around town with her keys on the car?


It sounds like both set of keys were on the counter and could have got mixed up.

I don't think anyone drive around town with keys on top of a car, I think they were placed there later.

Maybe if someone was lifting something that was heavy, could have just thrown them there.

I have no idea, I don't even know who would do that.

Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

Here is another thing, what did the two sets of car keys look like?

Were they just car keys with nothing attached?

I have a Eagle charm on my key ring, and other keys.

Were both set of keys easy to tell who they belonged to?

Or, was there something on there that you could not mistaken one for the other?

Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

It was reported way back when the case first opened that the dog was found up the street and was very bruised up. I think the poster said the dog was taken to a vet. I don't know if LE took him or someone else. I'm sure there are those on the forum that know.

Morning, Confused!!

I do remember that.

Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

I think she laid them there when she backed her car out of the garage and pulled MY's car back in. With the confusion of getting the child out of the car I think she forgot her keys and threw MY's on the counter. Either that or she lied about putting her keys on the counter as was her usual practice. That statement was in the search warrant. We have 3 inconsistent statements in warrants made by MF. A big deal was made because BC couldn't keep his story straight. IMOO



And, this could be exactly why there has been no arrest.

I have no trouble with someone giving a incorrect stmt after finding a dead body, but it would depend on how many inconsistencies.

Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

Hi Kat, I sure wish we had all those old posts.



Maybe someone saved them.
:)

Kat

[JHP]

I think she laid them there when she backed her car out of the garage and pulled MY's car back in. With the confusion of getting the child out of the car I think she forgot her keys and threw MY's on the counter. Either that or she lied about putting her keys on the counter as was her usual practice. That statement was in the search warrant. We have 3 inconsistent statements in warrants made by MF. A big deal was made because BC couldn't keep his story straight. IMOO

You know, I put my keys in the same place "most" of the time sometimes however something out of the ordinary happens and they are put in strange places.

There are no inconsistant statements made by Jason because he couldn't be bothered to talk to LE.

What we do know is Jason is thought to be the murderer by Det. Spivey and a Judge.

JMO

[Jester]

As long as there are 2 different shoe prints, there will always be a
mystery to who they both belong to.

I think they were trying to get the key problem out of the way, only trouble is, it doesn't make sense.

And, then if you throw in the fact, that they think C may have been taken from the home, it makes it even stranger.

We had never heard anything like this before.

Kat

The strange blisters on Jason's feet days after the murder will also be a mystery.

Maybe, possibly, the blisters could be explained by Jason wearing the wrong size shoes.

The would clear up both mysteries.

[Barbara2]

I think she laid them there when she backed her car out of the garage and pulled MY's car back in. With the confusion of getting the child out of the car I think she forgot her keys and threw MY's on the counter. Either that or she lied about putting her keys on the counter as was her usual practice. That statement was in the search warrant. We have 3 inconsistent statements in warrants made by MF. A big deal was made because BC couldn't keep his story straight. IMOO

In order for that theory to work, Meredith would have had to stay at the house the entire time until she called 911. Where was she when she received the call from Jason to go to the house? The investigators would have an answer to that question. If she didn't stay at the house until she called 911, she would have needed her keys in order to drive away. Therefore the keys had to have been laid on the hood of Michelle's car when Meredith came to the house in the afternoon. IMO

[JHP]

I 100% agree. We don't know everything and they do. I personally do not believe there is some vendetta against JY -- especially now since we see that even nearly a year later they did check out some of Meredith's stuff that proved to be nothing.

For the life of me, though, I cannot understand what is holding up the arrest. My only thought is perhaps another person was involved...but I don't think so.

Even so I think they could get started with Jason. The other person mmight mmaterialize.

[Jester]

But, if the dog was waiting for MF inside, how could he have not also had access to Michelle and C?

Kat

Maybe the dog could smell death and wanted to get out of the house, not be with Michelle.

[Kat4Eagles]

I suspect your are correct.

How hard is it to put a dog in another room?

I wonder if Jason tried to drug the dog too?



But, not if the dog was waiting at the back door when MF came in?

Then he would have free access to the home.

Do you think the dog was tested for drugs?

Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

Maybe the dog could smell death and wanted to get out of the house, not be with Michelle.


So, the dog could smell death, but MF could not?

Seems to me, if you conclude the death happened at 3am,and, the body was there for what, almost 10 and 1/2 hours.???

Kat

[caffeinated]

Maybe the dog could smell death and wanted to get out of the house, not be with Michelle.

Did we not hear early on that Mr. G had trouble going up/down stairs, and hence would not have been upstairs? I do not have a link, and maybe this was another case:confused:

[Kat4Eagles]

You know, I put my keys in the same place "most" of the time sometimes however something out of the ordinary happens and they are put in strange places.

There are no inconsistant statements made by Jason because he couldn't be bothered to talk to LE.

What we do know is Jason is thought to be the murderer by Det. Spivey and a Judge.

JMO

I have a certain place for my keys, usually in my handbag, but, that is not to say I am never looking for them.

Yes, Spivey's statement convinced the Judge to sign off on it, we know that, but still no arrest.
Kat

[Jester]

So, the dog could smell death, but MF could not?

Seems to me, if you conclude the death happened at 3am,and, the body was there for what, almost 10 and 1/2 hours.???

Kat

A dog's sense of smell is about 100 times more sensitive than humans, but I don't have to tell you that.

Yes, the dog could smell death, but Meredith could not.

[Kat4Eagles]

The strange blisters on Jason's feet days after the murder will also be a mystery.

Maybe, possibly, the blisters could be explained by Jason wearing the wrong size shoes.

The would clear up both mysteries.


Or , he could have just broken in a pair of new shoes that left him with blisters.

Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

A dog's sense of smell is about 100 times more sensitive than humans, but I don't have to tell you that.

Yes, the dog could smell death, but Meredith could not.


How would I know that?

I am not an animal person, no dogs, no cats.

Can not stand cats, as a matter of fact.

Just an Eagle fan.
:)

Kat

[Jester]

Or , he could have just broken in a pair of new shoes that left him with blisters.

Kat

Why hasn't he said so if that's the reason for the blisters?

If there is an innocent explanation for all the evidence that points to Jason, why has he remained mute?

When did he have time to go shoe shopping between Michelle's murder, driving through three states, visiting his mom, and arranging a funeral?

Even Pat didn't have time to shop for clothes for the funeral.

[Jester]

How would I know that?

I am not an animal person, no dogs, no cats.

Can not stand cats, as a matter of fact.

Just an Eagle fan.
:)

Kat

You have said that you followed the Laci Peterson case, so I assumed that you followed all the facts about the cadaver dogs.

[Kat4Eagles]

There is obviously some very compelling info that is not "public record" for Judge Donald Stephens to rule that Jason Young "willfully and unlawfully killed his wife,".


But not compelling enough to get an indictment or an arrest in 2 years .

You do think it is okay, until, there is one of the above, to still discuss the case though, right?

I mean, its not going to make any difference to L E if we still kick some stuff around.

Kinda like unfinished business, so to speak.

:)
Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

You have said that you followed the Laci Peterson case, so I assumed that you followed all the facts about the cadaver dogs.


Yep, and I know when a dog gets a hit, like in the Anthony case.

However, this is a case where the body was found in a home, unlike Laci or Caylee.

Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

Even so I think they could get started with Jason. The other person mmight mmaterialize.


I could not agree more, but since they haven't, we get to still speculate.

Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

Did we not hear early on that Mr. G had trouble going up/down stairs, and hence would not have been upstairs? I do not have a link, and maybe this was another case:confused:


I am not sure about that.

I would be curious to know where Mr. G was , when the 911 call was made too.

Kat

[jerry50]

Could be, but the fact that they were included in the s/w sure is strange.

Kat

It tells me that LE is looking at all angles. We do not know everything that the results of the search showed and since there are no follow up search warrants directed in anyone else's direction but Jason's I can safely assume that he is the main focus.
The latest search warrants regarding his email may be an attempt to discover if anyone had prior knowledge to the murder making them an accessory to the crime.

And anyone who learned of the murder perhaps that morning and then lied to LE could and probably will be charged with accessory after the fact and obstruction of justice.

[Jester]

Yep, and I know when a dog gets a hit, like in the Anthony case.

However, this is a case where the body was found in a home, unlike Laci or Caylee.

Kat

And a dogs sense of smell is 100 times more sensitive than a human, so the dog probably wanted to avoid the smell of a dead body.

The dog was freaking and wanted out of the house.

That is most likely why there were no bloody footprints made by the dog.

The dog was so eager to get away, that he ran out of the yard and down the street.

[Kat4Eagles]

I think its very possible that he called someone in to help him "stage" the scene afterwards.

There is one person I have in mind.

I have had this person in mind since day one.

This person has spent two years trying to vilify the Fisher's.

Regardless of the evidence out there and recent ruling naming Jason Michelle's slayer, this person continues to blame the Fisher's.

Thankfully, only about two or three folks here have fallen for it.

When Jason is indicted, I won't be surprised to see that this person was his accomplice.


JMO

It only takes 1-2-3 people to not get a guilty conviction either.
I would not be able to convict Jason yet..

Kat

[Jester]

I am not sure about that.

I would be curious to know where Mr. G was , when the 911 call was made too.

Kat

He was running down the street when the 911 call was made.

[Kat4Eagles]

Why hasn't he said so if that's the reason for the blisters?

If there is an innocent explanation for all the evidence that points to Jason, why has he remained mute?

When did he have time to go shoe shopping between Michelle's murder, driving through three states, visiting his mom, and arranging a funeral?

Even Pat didn't have time to shop for clothes for the funeral.


I didn't say that Jason went shoe shopping after the murder or before the funeral.

But,you brought up a point I never even thought of.

Maybe he borrowed dress shoes for the funeral.

And, they were two sizes too small.!!

Kat

[jerry50]

I have a certain place for my keys, usually in my handbag, but, that is not to say I am never looking for them.

Yes, Spivey's statement convinced the Judge to sign off on it, we know that, but still no arrest.
Kat

Meredith was only stopping by to pick up a piece of paper so I don't see a problem with her leaving her purse in the car and just taking the keys so she could run in and out.

[Jester]

I didn't say that Jason went shoe shopping after the murder or before the funeral.

But,you brought up a point I never even thought of.

Maybe he borrowed dress shoes for the funeral.

And, they were two sizes too small.!!

Kat

Why would he need to borrow dress shoes?

He had clothes for a business meeting with him, so he obviously had dress shoes with him.

According to his mom, he was wearing his dress shoes from the business meeting when he arrived at her house, and the only change of clothes he made was to put on a sweater that she gave him.

You also bring up an interesting point in acknowledging that the blisters could have come from shoes that "were two sizes too small".

[Jester]

Jester, you make an excellent point which has often been overlooked. Why isn't he screaming from the rooftops if he is innocent?

Okay, so his attorney advised him, but he could very easily have made a statement through his attorney, maybe sparing his family more embarrassment.

There has to be a good reason why his attorney told him not to say a word, and it's not because everything Jason has to say points to his innocence. It's also not because his lawyer is paranoid about persecution.

There is no innocent explanation for the blisters on his feet, but the blisters on his feet explain why Jason delayed his photo shoot.

[JD1974]

I've been wondering if defaulting on the wrongful death claim didn't have an upside for Jason. He could not get the insurance money on his own without being questioned, and he does not want to answer any questions. If Linda applies for the insurance money, then the funds become a little more accessible to Jason. He can apply to receive some of the funds for Cassidy's day to day care from Linda. It looks like it could be in Jason's favor to have Linda have the insurance money released.

Being named a Slayer is only a small problem, as he will remain free until he is convicted in a trial.


I said that awhile ago, this is actualy brilliant on Jason's part. He doesn't have to go through a deposition and he has full custody of Cassidy, he can use the money to raise her. So he got the money anyway.

[Jester]

I agree Jy is the prime suspect. But the same det. that testified in a civil case that he believes he is the killer can't convince the DA of this. If LE won't look at anyone else how do they know what really went on at the home that day? A child that is chatting like crazy in the back ground of a 911 call that seconds before was under sheets with clean feet and clothes. A dog that was going crazy but couldn't be heard in the 911 call. Three different stories told about various things by MF. So how do you think LE looked at all the angles?

I think they were careful not to jumble up the information. The dog was freaking when Meredith arrived, ran out the door, then down the street. This explains why the dog cannot be heard in the background.

A child who traipsed through her mother's blood at 4 in the morning wakes up on her father's side of the bed to find her aunt in the room. She's traumatized, and she's talking about bandaids, booboos, and all sorts of things.

There's only one story.

[Jester]

I said that awhile ago, this is actualy brilliant on Jason's part. He doesn't have to go through a deposition and he has full custody of Cassidy, he can use the money to raise her. So he got the money anyway.

I think that remains to be seen, but I can see him making an application to have a monthly allowance for Cassidy. He will have to account for all expenses, and have them all pre-approved. I think he will also have to demonstrate that he is kicking in for a percentage of all costs.

[Lindsey]

She may have had them in her hand and put them on the car to use both hands to open the garage door.

I see no problem either.

All I see is another attempt to bash Cassidy's Aunt.

Huh? Michelle's car was inside the garage. How did MF put her keys on the hood of Michelle's car to open the garage door when she was already in the garage with Michelle's car. You lost me on that one.

We are discussing something that was in a search warrant. How is that an attempt to bash her?

[Lindsey]

There has to be a good reason why his attorney told him not to say a word, and it's not because everything Jason has to say points to his innocence. It's also not because his lawyer is paranoid about persecution.

There is no innocent explanation for the blisters on his feet, but the blisters on his feet explain why Jason delayed his photo shoot.

Jason delayed his photo shoot? His attorney was served with the order late in the afternoon and Jason went in the next morning. Doesn't sound like a great delay to me.

IMO

[Lindsey]

Did we not hear early on that Mr. G had trouble going up/down stairs, and hence would not have been upstairs? I do not have a link, and maybe this was another case:confused:


Quite the opposite. We heard early on that Mr G had full run of the house, upstairs and downstairs. No trouble with stairs.

[Jester]

Thats just fine with me!!

But I don't think Jason is going to be a free man long enough to worry about Cassidy's expenses, JMO.

I would have to agree with you. Jason's days are definitely numbered.

[Lindsey]

A dog's sense of smell is about 100 times more sensitive than humans, but I don't have to tell you that.

Yes, the dog could smell death, but Meredith could not.

It was posted here by more than one person who apparently knows this stuff that the dog would have been drawn to the blood. If he could have got to Michelle, he would have.

Several links were posted but I didn't read them. Sounded kinda gross from what the posters were saying.