Dec 1 -

[Justice_Dawg]

http://images.zwire.com/local/Z/Zwire2264/zwire/images/2008/06/story/st-johns-police-chief_story.jpg
Massachusetts
Resolution sought in Ashland cop's lawsuit
Posted Jan 16, 2008 <-----

ASHLAND — A settlement may be near in veteran Police Officer Charles Garbarino's lawsuit against the town and former Police Chief Roy Melnick.

Garbarino's case could be the second in four months filed by Ashland officers to be settled before trial. Former Ashland Officer Matthew Gutwill settled a related suit in September that accused Melnick of calling him his "my token Jew" and "my token black".

Garbarino filed his suit in late 2005, claiming he was threatened with firing, disciplined on sham charges and otherwise retaliated against after he complained and spoke publicly about Melnick's alleged remarks.

LOTS MORE HERE: http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/news/x1942060869

----------------THEN 5 MONTHS LATER, PREJUDICE CHIEF MOVES CLEAR ACROSS THE COUNTRY TO ST JOHNS.--------------

New chief: Roy Melnick takes helm of St. Johns Police
06/13/2008<------

ST. JOHNS - St. Johns law enforcement got a new face recently when Roy Melnick assumed the helm of the St. Johns Police Department.

http://www.wmicentral.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=19770307&BRD=2264&PAG=461&dept_id=506182&rfi=6
---------------
Now I guess we know why he went after the child. :cursing:

[GentleBreeze]

http://images.zwire.com/local/Z/Zwire2264/zwire/images/2008/06/story/st-johns-police-chief_story.jpg
Massachusetts
Resolution sought in Ashland cop's lawsuit
Posted Jan 16, 2008 <-----

ASHLAND — A settlement may be near in veteran Police Officer Charles Garbarino's lawsuit against the town and former Police Chief Roy Melnick.

Garbarino's case could be the second in four months filed by Ashland officers to be settled before trial. Former Ashland Officer Matthew Gutwill settled a related suit in September that accused Melnick of calling him his "my token Jew" and "my token black".

Garbarino filed his suit in late 2005, claiming he was threatened with firing, disciplined on sham charges and otherwise retaliated against after he complained and spoke publicly about Melnick's alleged remarks.

LOTS MORE HERE: http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/news/x1942060869

----------------THEN 5 MONTHS LATER, PREJUDICE CHIEF MOVES CLEAR ACROSS THE COUNTRY TO ST JOHNS.--------------

New chief: Roy Melnick takes helm of St. Johns Police
06/13/2008<------

ST. JOHNS - St. Johns law enforcement got a new face recently when Roy Melnick assumed the helm of the St. Johns Police Department.

http://www.wmicentral.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=19770307&BRD=2264&PAG=461&dept_id=506182&rfi=6
---------------
Now I guess we know why he went after the child. :cursing:

Why? I haven't heard him make any comments about the racial makeup of anyone in this case.:confused:

What does a lawsuit filed by police officers have to do with this double homicide case?

imoo

[Justice_Dawg]

Why? I haven't heard him make any comments about the racial makeup of anyone in this case.:confused:

What does a lawsuit filed by police officers have to do with this double homicide case?

imoo

HE IS A RACIST.
Do you think everyone is a pure white catholic in this case??????
LOOK AGAIN!
Are you following the same case we are? :confused:

[JD1974]

He starting obviously lying when he was asked about GPR on his clothes...he tried to make excuses for WHY they would have found it there...he walked through a cloud of smoke:rolleyes:

He then LIES about shooting the gun at the imaginary car outside.:rolleyes:

He sounded every bit as cool and confident as he did in the beginning.



When I heard LE telling him about GSR the first thing that went through my mind was they are tryinbg to trap this 8 year old kid. Does your 8 year old know what GSR is because mine sure doesn't, I also noticed they never explained that GSR wouldn't be on his clothes if he had shot the gun a year ago. I honestly think to this little boy when they metioned GSr he thought it could of gotten there at anytime including when he was hunting ground hogs or squirrels with his father. He had no choice to concede that knowing he had at times before shot that gun.

[Dallasnc]

Too bad BKWITS isn't on. She posted something earlier today about rights. I've read posts on local articles where some locals are concerned. One even related it to this child. Going to search for link.

Thanks for the articles, Justice Dawg.

[GentleBreeze]

HE IS A RACIST.
Do you think everyone is a pure white catholic in this case??????
LOOK AGAIN!
Are you following the same case we are? :confused:


I don't know who is a pure white catholic in this case or any other one that I remember. I do know they said that Vincent Romero and many of the Romero family is of Catholic faith.

I know nothing about the Catholic faith. What does that have to do with the case though?

imoo

[Justice_Dawg]

Too bad BKWITS isn't on. She posted something earlier today about rights. I've read posts on local articles where some locals are concerned. One even related it to this child. Going to search for link.

Thanks for the articles, Justice Dawg.

She's on. :wink:

[GentleBreeze]

When I heard LE telling him about GSR the first thing that went through my mind was they are trying to trap this 8 year old kid. Does your 8 year old know what GSR is because mine sure doesn't, I also noticed they never explained that GSR wouldn't be on his clothes if he had shot the gun a year ago. I honestly think to this little boy when they mentioned GSr he thought it could of gotten there at anytime including when he was hunting ground hogs or squirrels with his father. He had no choice to concede that knowing he had at times before shot that gun.

If that were the case and what he thought then why did he make a point of saying that smoke was in the home THAT day?

imoo

[Keegan]

When I heard LE telling him about GSR the first thing that went through my mind was they are tryinbg to trap this 8 year old kid. Does your 8 year old know what GSR is because mine sure doesn't, I also noticed they never explained that GSR wouldn't be on his clothes if he had shot the gun a year ago. I honestly think to this little boy when they metioned GSr he thought it could of gotten there at anytime including when he was hunting ground hogs or squirrels with his father. He had no choice to concede that knowing he had at times before shot that gun.

He mentioned that maybe it would happen if he walked through it in the air. I feel awful for this kid. He is sitting in his pajamas ready for bed and two police officers drag him into a room to talk. They begin doing sign language with each other. That is the kids first tip off that he is not telling them what they want to hear. Don't kid yourself that an eight year old would not understand the body language of the two. Children of that age are excellent at it. Now he has told a big ol whopper and what a mess. No lawyer. No parent. No rights. It makes me sick.

[Justice_Dawg]

I don't know who is a pure white catholic in this case or any other one that I remember. I do know they said that Vincent Romero and many of the Romero family is of Catholic faith.

I know nothing about the Catholic faith. What does that have to do with the case though?

imoo

It was an example. Nothing more, nothing less.

[bkwits]

She's on. :wink:

You rang? :seeya:

[GentleBreeze]

He mentioned that maybe it would happen if he walked through it in the air. I feel awful for this kid. He is sitting in his pajamas ready for bed and two police officers drag him into a room to talk. They begin doing sign language with each other. That is the kids first tip off that he is not telling them what they want to hear. Don't kid yourself that an eight year old would not understand the body language of the two. Children of that age are excellent at it. Now he has told a big ol whopper and what a mess. No lawyer. No parent. No rights. It makes me sick.

Ready for bed? This was in the middle of the day, 19 hours after the murders.

[Justice_Dawg]

Too bad BKWITS isn't on. She posted something earlier today about rights. I've read posts on local articles where some locals are concerned. One even related it to this child. Going to search for link.

Thanks for the articles, Justice Dawg.

Bump for BKWITS

[Justice_Dawg]

Chelsie Jaramillo, who moved into the house across the street from Vincent Romero just two weeks ago with her husband and two children, said Romero's wife, Tiffany, welcomed her and told her to holler if she ever needed anything.

"They were really nice," said Jaramillo, 19.

http://74.6.239.67/search/cache?ei=UTF-8&p=St+Johns+Arizona+racism&xa=aIu7DBZHurJgRh.sg2151Q--%2C1228536417&fr=yie7c&u=www.southernledger.com/ap/Ariz_town_offers_support_for_accused_boys_family&w=st+johns+john+john%27s+arizona+az+racism&d=GU7C70fiR2o5&icp=1&.intl=us

[muska]

The more I think about it the more it bothers that this little kid is being held in near isolation, away from his mother. I can't believe he only gets to sit with his mom for a half hour twice a week. That's kind of sick. Now, even if the prosecutor actually believes this was a premeditated murder commited by this boy, he also knows the child will be a part of a community again at some point. Wouldn't the prosecutor serve the community better if he carefully looked after the child's mental health? Instead, the state of Arizona and our wonderful justice system choose to crush an early elementary school child. This is soooo short-sighted and so sad.

The longer they leave the boy in that place, with little opportunity to talk with anyone he trusts,the less likely it is that anyone will ever know for sure what the child heard or saw or did. I wonder if he even knows anymore.

[Justice_Dawg]

Chelsie Jaramillo, who moved into the house across the street from Vincent Romero just two weeks ago with her husband and two children, said Romero's wife, Tiffany, welcomed her and told her to holler if she ever needed anything.

"They were really nice," said Jaramillo, 19.

http://74.6.239.67/search/cache?ei=UTF-8&p=St+Johns+Arizona+racism&xa=aIu7DBZHurJgRh.sg2151Q--%2C1228536417&fr=yie7c&u=www.southernledger.com/ap/Ariz_town_offers_support_for_accused_boys_family&w=st+johns+john+john%27s+arizona+az+racism&d=GU7C70fiR2o5&icp=1&.intl=us (http://74.6.239.67/search/cache?ei=UTF-8&p=St+Johns+Arizona+racism&xa=aIu7DBZHurJgRh.sg2151Q--%2C1228536417&fr=yie7c&u=www.southernledger.com/ap/Ariz_town_offers_support_for_accused_boys_family&w=st+johns+john+john%27s+arizona+az+racism&d=GU7C70fiR2o5&icp=1&.intl=us)

Look her up. Then, look up her husband KEVIN
http://www.supreme.state.az.us/publicaccess/notification/default.asp

[IAMME]

I have been lurking here for days.

Thought you guys might be interested in this....

http://axtonromero.blogspot.com/2008/11/tiffany-romero-in-town.html

[Crispy]

I seen that link at another site. Makes you wonder a little bit

[Justice_Dawg]

I have been lurking here for days.

Thought you guys might be interested in this....

http://axtonromero.blogspot.com/2008/11/tiffany-romero-in-town.html

I knew it.
She killed them. The boy is covering for her.

Thank you very much. :thumbsup:

[Justice_Dawg]

I seen that link at another site. Makes you wonder a little bit

A little bit? Her husband hasn't been dead a month.

[IAMME]

The part that got me was, even more than the pics i think is: "all the drama"...not "the tragedy" but the drama.....I realize that isn't her words but OMG!!:ohmy:

[Justice_Dawg]

The part that got me was, even more than the pics i think is: "all the drama"...not "the tragedy" but the drama.....I realize that isn't her words but OMG!!:ohmy:

They went to quite a few parties? BARF

[FurthurBB]

I knew it.
She killed them. The boy is covering for her.

Thank you very much. :thumbsup:

Wow, I do not think this means she killed them, but, I have seen people hung by the public for much less. IMO

[Justice_Dawg]

Wow, I do not think this means she killed them, but, I have seen people hung by the public for much less. IMO

Boys Interview:

Where was your (step)mom?

She told you she was at the store.

[Justice_Dawg]

I have been lurking here for days.

Thought you guys might be interested in this....

http://axtonromero.blogspot.com/2008/11/tiffany-romero-in-town.html

Why did you wait so long?
This is UNREAL.
If my husband were just killed, I wouldn't be out partying.
From what I have read from the towns people, they have NO CLUE where she is.

Have anything else for us? :biggrin:

[Crispy]

I have googled until my eyes are crossing. See you tomorrow, well later today LOL..

[Justice_Dawg]

I have googled until my eyes are crossing. See you tomorrow, well later today LOL..

Night! And thank you so much!:thumbsup:

[Justice_Dawg]

I have been lurking here for days.

Thought you guys might be interested in this....

http://axtonromero.blogspot.com/2008/11/tiffany-romero-in-town.html

I read that whole sight, it never mentions Vincent being killed. Nothing about him. Is that Jodan Romero his brother? Cousin? Who is it?

------------------------

So Tiff came to stay with us for 5 days to get away from all the drama that has been going on. While she was here we went to a few parties and went out to eat. We had a good time with her, I am sad that she left. The last day she was here I cut her hair and put a lot of pretty layers in it. So I took some before and after pictures! Nelly her boxer dog came with her. I hate to say this but Oreo is so glad that Nelly is gone cause she can now go to the bathroom in peace.

------------------------

This just makes my blood boil. I can't even sleep! As you can tell!!
:cursing:

[IAMME]

Why did you wait so long?
This is UNREAL.
If my husband were just killed, I wouldn't be out partying.
From what I have read from the towns people, they have NO CLUE where she is.

Have anything else for us? :biggrin:

Oh, I didnt wait to post this, I only saw it a couple hours before I finally registered so I could post it, I have been lurking reading all the other posts, someone else posted it on another forum I have been following.

It said she stayed 5 days with these people, and that was posted on the 22nd? so we can assume she was partying, going out to eat, getting haircuts, and hamming it up for the camera, within two weeks of her husbands brutal murder and her step-sons arrest.

I noticed that the murders weren't mentioned either, not even a prayer request for the death of a family member....nothing, except a passing mention of "the drama." And I even checked the friend links, thinking that maybe there would be a more sensitive family member to e found..... I have no idea who these people are, if they are brother, cousin nephew.....Anyone have a link to the obit?

[PensiveOne]

Oh, I didnt wait to post this, I only saw it a couple hours before I finally registered so I could post it, I have been lurking reading all the other posts, someone else posted it on another forum I have been following.

It said she stayed 5 days with these people, and that was posted on the 22nd? so we can assume she was partying, going out to eat, getting haircuts, and hamming it up for the camera, within two weeks of her husbands brutal murder and her step-sons arrest.

I noticed that the murders weren't mentioned either, not even a prayer request for the death of a family member....nothing, except a passing mention of "the drama." And I even checked the friend links, thinking that maybe there would be a more sensitive family member to e found..... I have no idea who these people are, if they are brother, cousin nephew.....Anyone have a link to the obit?


Here is the obit:
http://www.zwire.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=20193700&BRD=2264&PAG=461&dept_id=505965&rfi=8

[FurthurBB]

Why did you wait so long?
This is UNREAL.
If my husband were just killed, I wouldn't be out partying.
From what I have read from the towns people, they have NO CLUE where she is.

Have anything else for us? :biggrin:

And your step-son isolated and alone charged with his murder. IMO

[muska]

Boys Interview:

Where was your (step)mom?

She told you she was at the store.

I had forgotten about these few lines but after seeing them again, I remember that when I heard them I got even more uncomfortable than I had been. It just seemed liked he was saying what he had been told to say, like this might have been a part that he knew might not be true. I'm going to go back and listen later, but I definitely remember being bothered.

The pictures and text! Nauseating! Clearly, she has no love for this little boy.....talk about self-absorbed people. And she could not have loved the husband. Wow, I don't know what to say.

[book]

I received an email from a wonderful person that asked me to share this news. If interested in helping the info to contact is below [per her request].

Dear book:

I would be cautious. This case is in Arizona. The child is ALLEGED to have killed his father and his father’s friend. There are real issues about the police conduct/interview in this case, his “confession” and whether an 8 year old even has the competency to understand what happened, is happening, let alone to stand trial. Law enforcement has publically called for this child to be tried as an adult, etc. etc. I would hope that that would not be the outcome of this case. Steve Drizin wrote an op-ed that was published in the AZ paper. It was very good. Although I would wonder who else the producers are talking with….

Beth Rosenberg
Director of Child Welfare and Juvenile Justice
Children's Action Alliance
brosenberg@azchildren.org
www.azchildren.org

[Justice_Dawg]

I had forgotten about these few lines but after seeing them again, I remember that when I heard them I got even more uncomfortable than I had been. It just seemed liked he was saying what he had been told to say, like this might have been a part that he knew might not be true. I'm going to go back and listen later, but I definitely remember being bothered.

The pictures and text! Nauseating! Clearly, she has no love for this little boy.....talk about self-absorbed people. And she could not have loved the husband. Wow, I don't know what to say.
I am at a loss for words too.
I just want to go break him out.

[Justice_Dawg]

And your step-son isolated and alone charged with his murder. IMO

I am sick. Look at this, a friend found it last night:

http://ktar.net/blogs/dankarlo/2008/11/21/vince-and-tiffany-wedding-photos/

[book]

I am sick. Look at this, a friend found it last night:

http://ktar.net/blogs/dankarlo/2008/11/21/vince-and-tiffany-wedding-photos/

She has been nowhere to be found? hhhmmmm interesting.

[Justice_Dawg]

She has been nowhere to be found? hhhmmmm interesting.
Oh, I informed him. It says my comment is pending. :tonguewag:

[book]

Oh, I informed him. It says my comment is pending. :tonguewag:



I find this somewhat suspicious. IMO

[Justice_Dawg]

I find this somewhat suspicious. IMO

What is suspicious:confused:?

[Justice_Dawg]

I received an email from a wonderful person that asked me to share this news. If interested in helping the info to contact is below [per her request].

Dear book:

I would be cautious. This case is in Arizona. The child is ALLEGED to have killed his father and his father’s friend. There are real issues about the police conduct/interview in this case, his “confession” and whether an 8 year old even has the competency to understand what happened, is happening, let alone to stand trial. Law enforcement has publically called for this child to be tried as an adult, etc. etc. I would hope that that would not be the outcome of this case. Steve Drizin wrote an op-ed that was published in the AZ paper. It was very good. Although I would wonder who else the producers are talking with….

Beth Rosenberg
Director of Child Welfare and Juvenile Justice
Children's Action Alliance
brosenberg@azchildren.org
www.azchildren.org
TYVM!
What AZ paper is she talking about?

[Kara]

Oh, I didnt wait to post this, I only saw it a couple hours before I finally registered so I could post it, I have been lurking reading all the other posts, someone else posted it on another forum I have been following.

It said she stayed 5 days with these people, and that was posted on the 22nd? so we can assume she was partying, going out to eat, getting haircuts, and hamming it up for the camera, within two weeks of her husbands brutal murder and her step-sons arrest.

I noticed that the murders weren't mentioned either, not even a prayer request for the death of a family member....nothing, except a passing mention of "the drama." And I even checked the friend links, thinking that maybe there would be a more sensitive family member to e found..... I have no idea who these people are, if they are brother, cousin nephew.....Anyone have a link to the obit?
Hmmm...so the grieving widow doesn't seem to be grieving.... I wonder if Vincent had good life insurance.

[muska]

TYVM!
What AZ paper is she talking about?

I think that is probably the article I mentioned yesterday. Drizen was quoted in that one.It was very interesting.

www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/LaurieRoberts/39742

[Justice_Dawg]

Hmmm...so the grieving widow doesn't seem to be grieving.... I wonder if Vincent had good life insurance.
I am sure the house is hers.

I thought it morbid when I heard she went right back in it when it was released after the murders.

If I were in her place, I couldn't have ever stepped foot in that house again.

[LindaNJ1216]

The more I think about it the more it bothers that this little kid is being held in near isolation, away from his mother. I can't believe he only gets to sit with his mom for a half hour twice a week. That's kind of sick. Now, even if the prosecutor actually believes this was a premeditated murder commited by this boy, he also knows the child will be a part of a community again at some point. Wouldn't the prosecutor serve the community better if he carefully looked after the child's mental health? Instead, the state of Arizona and our wonderful justice system choose to crush an early elementary school child. This is soooo short-sighted and so sad.

The longer they leave the boy in that place, with little opportunity to talk with anyone he trusts,the less likely it is that anyone will ever know for sure what the child heard or saw or did. I wonder if he even knows anymore.


Mother? Which one? The one he saw a handful of times in years or the one he lived with and called "mom"?

[LindaNJ1216]

I knew it.
She killed them. The boy is covering for her.

Thank you very much. :thumbsup:

:rolleyes:

[Kara]

I am sure the house is hers.

I thought it morbid when I heard she went right back in it when it was released after the murders.

If I were in her place, I couldn't have ever stepped foot in that house again.Well, sometimes a person just has no choice from an economic standpoint so I can't condemn her on that w/o further information....but being out partying immediately is disconcerting. Esp. when you add it to some of the other reports, like the way she referred to the bio mom, telling the boy that what goes on in their house stays in their house...and that odd comment about "she told you she was at the store".

[LindaNJ1216]

Why did you wait so long?
This is UNREAL.
If my husband were just killed, I wouldn't be out partying.
From what I have read from the towns people, they have NO CLUE where she is.

Have anything else for us? :biggrin:

Remember Cynthia Sommer ?

[book]

What is suspicious:confused:?

The step mother disappearing.

[muska]

Mother? Which one? The one he saw a handful of times in years or the one he lived with and called "mom"?

The one who visits him rather than going to parties to escape the drama. The one who holds him twice a week and loves him and who he wants kisses blown to him from. The one who hasn't abandoned him.

Can you possibly be defending Tiffany right now because right now she doesn't seem like much of a mother to me.

[LindaNJ1216]

She has been nowhere to be found? hhhmmmm interesting.

Where do you want her to be? In the media daily? In the house where two people were murdered? I would surround myself with people that cared about me and try to get involved in something to take my mind off it.

[LindaNJ1216]

The one who visits him rather than going to parties to escape the drama. The one who holds him twice a week and loves him and who he wants kisses blown to him from. The one who hasn't abandoned him.

Can you possibly be defending Tiffany right now because right now she doesn't seem like much of a mother to me.

Oh that one. Glad she FINALLLY stepped up to the plate. It's about time...but better late than never I suppose.

[Justice_Dawg]

Oh that one. Glad she FINALLLY stepped up to the plate. It's about time...but better late than never I suppose.

How many kids do you have?

[muska]

Mother? Which one? The one he saw a handful of times in years or the one he lived with and called "mom"?

I read that she drove up from Mississippi every 4 to 6 weeks and talked to her son on the phone every week. The Romeros had some concern that the bio mother would try to kidnap the boy. Apparently, they thought she wanted to spend more time with him. And she was the one who noticed that he had recently withdrawn and was worried about what might be going on. She doesn't sound like a bad mother to me, just one with fewer custody rights. Too bad she wasn't able to somehow get him away from that house.

[Justice_Dawg]

I read that she drove up from Mississippi every 4 to 6 weeks and talked to her son on the phone every week. The Romeros had some concern that the bio mother would try to kidnap the boy. Apparently, they thought she wanted to spend more time with him. And she was the one who noticed that he had recently withdrawn and was worried about what might be going on. She doesn't sound like a bad mother to me, just one with fewer custody rights. Too bad she wasn't able to somehow get him away from that house.
She did all of that, yes.
I think the corrupt court in Apache County sided with VR in the custody issues. He knew everybody from what we hear.

[muska]

I remember the bio mom said that the boy told her that his dad and the step-mom fought all the time. She said she called Tiffany about that and she was afraid she'd gotten her son in trouble. That's when Tiffany said "what goes on in this house stays in this house" and she also started listening in on all phone calls. Sounds like she had something to hide.

[Justice_Dawg]

I remember the bio mom said that the boy told her that his dad and the step-mom fought all the time. She said she called Tiffany about that and she was afraid she'd gotten her son in trouble. That's when Tiffany said "what goes on in this house stays in this house" and she also started listening in on all phone calls. Sounds like she had something to hide.

Tiffany was also the first to say she suspected the boy.

It would have been so easy for her to set up the boy to take the fall.

I am remembering the .22 rifle manual in the crime scene photos. That gun holds 10 rounds. Exactly 10 rounds.

hmmmmmmmmm

[lurkinghere2]

Tiffany was also the first to say she suspected the boy.

It would have been so easy for her to set up the boy to take the fall.

I am remembering the .22 rifle manual in the crime scene photos. That gun holds 10 rounds. Exactly 10 rounds.
hmmmmmmmmm

Hi all --
Been lurking for days, finally registered.

First, yeah on the find that potentially has evidence in support of this child's innocence! Oh, wait, that might be on another site. I'll post it here.
Second, I'm not a gun person, so this above part confuses me. I thought each round had to be manually loaded on this .22. What do you mean by holds rounds??

[lurkinghere2]

Here's the snip from another board:

Mara Siegel, a Maricopa County deputy juvenile public defender who is working with the defense team in this case, said there is reason to believe that the boy didn't kill his father and another man. But she can't talk about it.

Judge's gag order. Interesting, isn't it, that we can see and hear the “confession” but not the other side of the story?

Even if the boy told the truth and if by some miracle it's admissible in court – hardly likely given that they didn't even bother to read the kid his Miranda rights -- both Siegel and Drizin say it's unlikely the boy will face trial. For hundreds of years, we've presumed that kids his age are incapable of forming the criminal intent necessary to commit murder.

From Laurie Roberts @ azcentral.

[Justice_Dawg]

Hi all --
Been lurking for days, finally registered.

First, yeah on the find that potentially has evidence in support of this child's innocence! Oh, wait, that might be on another site. I'll post it here.
Second, I'm not a gun person, so this above part confuses me. I thought each round had to be manually loaded on this .22. What do you mean by holds rounds??
Please post it here. TY! What other site? :confused:

[lurkinghere2]

Please post it here. TY! What other site? :confused:

OK, I did post the snip in #600.

Here is the link that was used as the source:
http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blo...eRoberts/39742

The link and the snip were both posted on Websleuths.

ETA: I noticed in reading that this blog entry was posted on 11/22, so the idea that there is evidence to suggest his innocence has been in place for a while now -- but discussion of it is part of the gag order.

Hmmmm -- are the keeping the child in detention to protect him, maybe, while they vett out the real culprit????

[Justice_Dawg]

Hi all --
Been lurking for days, finally registered.

First, yeah on the find that potentially has evidence in support of this child's innocence! Oh, wait, that might be on another site. I'll post it here.
Second, I'm not a gun person, so this above part confuses me. I thought each round had to be manually loaded on this .22. What do you mean by holds rounds??

The manual that was photographed was for a semi-automatic rifle with a detatchable mag that held 10 rounds. It is for a mossberg 702 Plinkster 22 caliber.

----------------
VR -shot 4 times
TR- shot 6 times
=
10 rounds.

[lurkinghere2]

The manual that was photographed was for a semi-automatic rifle with a detatchable mag that held 10 rounds. It is for a mossberg 702 Plinkster 22 caliber.

----------------
VR -shot 4 times
TR- shot 6 times
=
10 rounds.


Ooooohhhhh, so different gun that would use the same bullets & leave the same casings at the scene where the child's .22 was conveniently left out for all to see. :mad:

Thx....

[Justice_Dawg]

Ooooohhhhh, so different gun that would use the same bullets & leave the same casings at the scene where the child's .22 was conveniently left out for all to see. :mad:

Thx....

No problem. :wink:

[muska]

I found some info on mistaken identifications. It seems people misidentify supects all the time...same as false confessions. According to the Innocence Project," eyewitness misidentification is the single greatest cause of wrongful convictions nationwide.......while eyewitness testimony can be persuasive, 30 years of strong social science research has proven that eyewitness identification is often unreliable."

If eyewitness identification is so unreliable, I bet voice identification from over the cell phone, from 20 or 30 feet away, and from inside the house is pretty unreliable too. Tim was probably talking to his wife as the voice was calling and that would have made the clarity even less. Of course, there is still the possibility that Tim just wanted to get off the phone and said the boy was calling. We've all probably done something like that at one time or another.

[muska]

Ooooohhhhh, so different gun that would use the same bullets & leave the same casings at the scene where the child's .22 was conveniently left out for all to see. :mad:

Thx....

I don't know ANYTHING about guns so would someone tell me if this is possible? Is there another gun that could use the exact same bullets and leave the same casings? Thanks much!

[Justice_Dawg]

I don't know ANYTHING about guns so would someone tell me if this is possible? Is there another gun that could use the exact same bullets and leave the same casings? Thanks much!

Yes, and both guns use the same bullets.

[LindaNJ1216]

How many kids do you have?

ONE..How is how many children I have relevant to the case?

[Justice_Dawg]

Not that it relates, but I can tell you that the Catholic Church does not allow second marriages. Unless he received an annulment of his first marriage, Vincent (according to the church) would have been living in sin with his new wife. I do find it strange that he was still a member of the church and going to Confession. Remarried Catholics are NOT allowed to take Communion. Of course they are allowed Confession, as I think anyone is, but I wonder if he was an active participant of the Church.

It really doesn't say a lot about the crime other than people talking about what a wonderful Catholic he was. I have no actual basis to judge him whatsoever, nor do I intend to do that, I am simply stating what I know to be the Catholic Church rules.

IMO
I read last night that he sang in the choir. It also said Tiffany signed up for choir, but never went.

I went to Catholic school all my life.

[muska]

Ooooohhhhh, so different gun that would use the same bullets & leave the same casings at the scene where the child's .22 was conveniently left out for all to see. :mad:

Thx....

Now that I know that different guns could have been used, it sure does seem that gun was left out for all to see. Great observation, Lurkinghere

And remember, the boy didn't know where it had been found. He guessed "the closet."

[muska]

After looking at the wedding photos, it is clear that they were indeed married in the Catholic Church. The only way I can see this happening is if Vincent received an annulment.

I know it doesn't matter, but I find it an intriguing aspect of the case, and his faith has been talked about at length.

IMO

Do we know for sure that he was married to the boy's mother? I'm not sure if I ever read that.

[Justice_Dawg]

ONE..How is how many children I have relevant to the case?

I am still chuckling about you smelling the dogs breath to catch your child in a lie. Just wanted to know if you only had that one child.

[Justice_Dawg]

I am a bit confused. So is the girl with the short hair Tiffany's sister in law and married to Vincent's brother? And is Tiffany the one with the long hair?

If that is the case, it would seem as though they are most definitely supporting her in this case and do not think she is guilty of anything.

Didn't they say an uncle was with the boy at one point, or was that a great uncle? I am getting confused on the family ties here and was hoping someone had a better take on it.
Tiffany has the long hair wearing a red shirt.

I can't figure out who they are. (yet) Cousin's maybe. They aren't listed in VR's obit by name.
http://www.zwire.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=20193700&BRD=2264&PAG=461&dept_id=505965&rfi=8

[Justice_Dawg]

Do we know for sure that he was married to the boy's mother? I'm not sure if I ever read that.

Case Number: S-0100-DO-2001095 Case Category: Civil Case Title: ROMERO VS ROMERO
Court: Apache County Superior Judge: HONORABLE MICHAEL C NELSON Filing Date: 06/21/2001 Disposition Date: 01/14/2002

Party Name: VINCENT R ROMERO Party Type: D 1 - DEFNDT/RESPNDT Date of Birth: 09/11/1979


Party Name: RESTRICTED Party Type: M 1 - MINOR Date of Birth:


Party Name: ERYN J ROMERO Party Type: P 1 - PLNTIF/PETITNER Date of Birth: 10/07/1982

---------------
Yep, they were married.

[Justice_Dawg]

OK...now I am even more confused. He seems to have a daughter with 2 last names-Chavez Romero. Anyone know what that means? Also-I am assuming she must be fairly young as Vince was really young. So was this a daughter he adopted and was either just a little older than the 8 year old boy or even between the 8 year old and his marriage to Tiffany?

There are 4 listings of the last name Chavez Romero on the public access site.

[bkwits]

:seeya:


Wow, a lot happened last night after I went to sleep. I am surprised that Tiffany was going to parties, but, IMO, it doesn't not necessarily point to her guilt. But who knows?

I was taken aback that there was no mention of Vincent or the tragedy, just drama.

It's up to 18 degrees here, and it is not even winter yet. :w00t:

[muska]

I know I am going into something here that doesn't necesarily pertain to the case, but does perhaps shed some light on the relationship between Vincent and Eryn.

Knowing what I know about Catholics, it would seem that getting pregnant at 17 or 18, many would push for marriage and definitely refrain from abortion. Perhaps Eryn did not want the child to begin with and was convinced to move forward, marry Vincent and raise the child (rather than adoption.) I am guessing Vincent wanted the child. Maybe that is why she decided to move away to Mississippi (or back there?) and start over again. Maybe they struck a deal that he would take primary role in raising the child and she would have limited visitation rights.

Things may have gone well for a while until Vincent married Tiffany and then apparently, some troubles began between the two women.


Vincent may have had more family support. I have been under the impression that the boy lived with his grandparents until fairly recently.

[PensiveOne]

I just read a comment on a blog that Tiffany was pregnant? Anybody else heard that?

http://happilybitter.wordpress.com/2008/11/10/house-where-8-year-old-shot-father-already-cleaned-by-homeowner/

Go to the last comment by somebody who supposedly knew Vincent.

[bkwits]

Vincent may have had more family support. I have been under the impression that the boy lived with his grandparents until fairly recently.

IDK, but Vincent's parents were divorced.

[Justice_Dawg]

IDK, but Vincent's parents were divorced.

Vincent's parents divorced in 2002
Vincent and Eryn divorced in 2002

Weird

[bkwits]

Vincent's parents divorced in 2002
Vincent and Eryn divorced in 2002

Weird

Yeah, Liz the grandma, is only about 50, so she prob works.

I am still wondering about Vincent's daughter, as listed in the obit, Faith Chavez-Romero, Tucson, AZ. Maybe he wasn't married to her mother. :confused:

[Justice_Dawg]

That last comment was very scary. It sounds like the friends and family down there are firmly on the side of LE and believe the child did this. If they were such a "good family" why are there so many divorces, arguing and loaded guns lying around?

IMO
:mad:

Tiffany is listed as Tiffany Duvall on the witness list.
I don't care if they were only married a few months, that to me is disrespectful.

MOO

[PensiveOne]

That last comment was very scary. It sounds like the friends and family down there are firmly on the side of LE and believe the child did this. If they were such a "good family" why are there so many divorces, arguing and loaded guns lying around?

IMO
:mad:

I can't figure these people out. Not one of them has defended this little boy. Makes you wonder about them all.:unsure:

[Justice_Dawg]

Did the grandmother that hung this child ever go hunting with him? How does she know what kind of shot he is?

Watch this kid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQYd9uwcGGM


Are they trying to tell us that the boy shot and reloaded 6 times outside to kill Tim?

I am NOT buying it. :thumbdown:

[muska]

Did the grandmother that hung this child ever go hunting with him? How does she know what kind of shot he is?

Watch this kid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQYd9uwcGGM


Are they trying to tell us that the boy shot and reloaded 6 times outside to kill Tim?

I am NOT buying it. :thumbdown:

Me either! I don't think an eight year old could get all those shots off in that situation no matter how good of a shot he was and the bio mother said he'd only been given the gun recently. If that's true, he wouldn't even have had that much practice.

[GentleBreeze]

Did the grandmother that hung this child ever go hunting with him? How does she know what kind of shot he is?

Watch this kid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQYd9uwcGGM


Are they trying to tell us that the boy shot and reloaded 6 times outside to kill Tim?

I am NOT buying it. :thumbdown:

The boy in the video is taking his time. I doubt the perp was taking theirs. It also shows just how simple it is to reload.

About the 720 Mossberg manual found. From the photo it looks to be taken from where the guns were kept in their soft cases. Mostly likely in the master bedroom. If this gun was found there then how did the shooter have time to place it back after he had killed Romero and Romans and why would he do so if the gun didn't even belong to him?

imoo

[LindaNJ1216]

I can't figure these people out. Not one of them has defended this little boy. Makes you wonder about them all.:unsure:

Not if they all believe he's guilty....and I think they are in a far better position to "know" than we are.

[Justice_Dawg]

And once again I CHALLENGE anyone to connect anything that this boy said during the taped confession that matches up with any of the crime scene evidence, the transcripts of the hearings or any other evidence that is out there right now.

Either put up or back off:thumbsup: :thumbup: :thumbsup:

[LindaNJ1216]

And once again I CHALLENGE anyone to connect anything that this boy said during the taped confession that matches up with any of the crime scene evidence, the transcripts of the hearings or any other evidence that is out there right now.

Either put up or back off

:scared:

:tonguewag:

:laugh:

Could you possibly be any more rude?

[muska]

There was a story a day or two ago about the woman from Virginia who lost her 13 year old daughter and her husband in the terrorist attack in Mumbai. She said she was, of course, terribly grief stricken, but that she had already forgiven the terrorists and asked others to do the same. She said nothing can be accomplished by seeking vengance and feeling hate.
I can understand and accept that not all victims of violence can feel this way, especially so soon. But I don't understand how adults who have no personal involvement in this case can feel such disregard for an eight year old. The St Johns man who made the comment wants concern for the unborn child, but none for the child Vincent already had and loved. I wonder how good a friend Vincent would consider that man now.

[bkwits]

:scared:

:tonguewag:

:laugh:

Could you possibly be any more rude?


I don't think January intended to be rude. She is just defending a young child. It is personal with her, I think.

So Chill. OK?

[bkwits]

I believe that everyone who is facing the death penalty should be allowed to have a crack at proving their innocence with DNA evidence, if at all possible. I see so many cases where they are not even allowed to do so and the judges and governors turn a blind eye.

I would hate it if someone is wrongly executed for a crime they did not commit, let alone serve so much precious time behind bars.

I am no liberal, trust me, but it scares me that we feel we need to keep an 8 year old behind bars before tests even come back. I am still not convinced that this child is the shooter. And even if he is, there is still a lot of questions as to the circumstances surrounding this case.

IMO

I agree with you. Former Gov. Ryan (IL) put a moratorium on the exeutions in IL because as he stated more people on death row in IL have been found to be innocent than have been executed since 1977 when the DP was reinstated.

Although I can't prove it, I'm certain innocent persons have been exeuted. IMO

[Justice_Dawg]

I Just read that the defense doesn't even know what gun was used in the murders yet.

[bkwits]

Looks like it takes a good 5 seconds or more to reload each time..... and that is when you are calm and not under pressure. That is a long time; better hit your target dead on the 1st shop or they'll be on you and get the gun. I just don't buy the kid could do that. There is something wrong about all this.

And the kid shooting in the video was resting his rifle on something, so that it was easier for him to load and aim. IMO

[bkwits]

I Just read that the defense doesn't even know what gun was used in the murders yet.

Why am I not surprised???
:cursing:

ETA I wonder if the Pros. does?

[IAMME]

Someone in another forum posted that there was a problem with the forensics on the clothing, does anyone here know anything about that? They said they got it from Phoenix channel 12 but I can't find it. Help!

[Justice_Dawg]

Why am I not surprised???
:cursing:

ETA I wonder if the Pros. does?

Because I think they have the wrong person in jail.
shhhhhhhhh :biggrin:

[Justice_Dawg]

Someone in another forum posted that there was a problem with the forensics on the clothing, does anyone here know anything about that? They said they got it from Phoenix channel 12 but I can't find it. Help!

They may have seen it on AZ TV. It takes awhile to get it up on the website.

[steffaroob4]

They may have seen it on AZ TV. It takes awhile to get it up on the website.

How would that get out with a gag order in place? Hmmm... wonder what other evidence might be having problems... ballisics

[Justice_Dawg]

How would that get out with a gag order in place? Hmmm... wonder what other evidence might be having problems... ballisics

Yes.

imo GAG

[bkwits]

Does anyone know for certain when Vincent got custody of his son from Eryn. I heard something about it happening in 2006.

[IAMME]

i'm getting confused does anyone have a timeline for this whole case? when did Eryn and Vincent get married, divorce? Can someone post a thread on that? like the links one with an editable timeline that we can add to? I would but I dont know how....

[bookie]

How would that get out with a gag order in place? Hmmm... wonder what other evidence might be having problems... ballisics



Gag orders don't always work. Stuff gets leaked. There was a story on here not long ago about a court clerk or some court employee getting caught trying to sell documents from the Maria Lauterbach/Cesar Laurean case.

[GentleBreeze]

Does anyone know for certain when Vincent got custody of his son from Eryn. I heard something about it happening in 2006.

I believe you are correct. He was awarded official physical custody around two years ago.

I think the boy has always lived with him though. He talked in the child support papers about her moving away to MS and didn't see him but two weeks out of a year and a half. This was before the custody was established. And then he also enters a statement that when she lived with her boyfriend in AZ before then that they had no plumbing or electricity in the camper trailer, irrc. So it seems when she got the divorce in 2001, she must have left the boy there with Vincent. He also talked about the boy being a preemie and had breathing problems as a baby and when he went with his mother and then came back he was always hacking.

imoo

[BobbisAngel]

It just dawned on me that you actually led or coerced your child into a confession. Because you already knew the answer you wanted and you got him to admit before he could be released (go out and play). That is similar to what LE did to the child in this case. They already knew what they wanted to hear. IMO


I'll bet there isn't a parent on here who hasn't done the same thing when they knew that their child was lying...I know I did. You do what you have to do to get the kid to tell you the truth when you know for a fact that they are lying to you. Lying to me was one thing that I couldn't stand for my kids to do. They knew if they lied about something that they had actually done they would be in more trouble then if they just owned up to it. I used to tell my kids "look me right in the eyes and tell me" and if they were lying they could not look into my eyes. Happened every time. My son would usually start laughing when he was lying so I always knew when he was trying to pull something over on me. Call it manipulation, leading, or what have you but it is a ploy that parents the world around use. What parent wants their kids to grow up to be crafty liars? They lie and they should be called on it.

Maybe the ladies talking to this boy knew that he was lying because of the evidence too.

[muska]

I'm heading off to work, but wanted to list a new article at abc, 15.com, Northern Arizona news. Part of a 100 page transcript of an interview of the detective(s) who interviewed the boy. Done by the child's lawyer, Brewer. One of the detectives had only been a detective for one day. Gets crazier everyday.

www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/St-Johns-interviewer-of-boy-was-detective-for/xEzlyHgNmUGsYs3PAJqelA.cspx


This is a very small part, maybe there's more elsewhere and maybe it's where the forensics get mentioned. If the link doesn't work, just go to more local news under the news section.

[muska]

The link doesn't seem to work. You have to go to More Arizona News, the article isn't on the main page.

[PensiveOne]

I'm heading off to work, but wanted to list a new article at abc, 15.com, Northern Arizona news. Part of a 100 page transcript of an interview of the detective(s) who interviewed the boy. Done by the child's lawyer, Brewer. One of the detectives had only been a detective for one day. Gets crazier everyday.

www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/St-Johns-interviewer-of-boy-was-detective-for/xEzlyHgNmUGsYs3PAJqelA.cspx


This is a very small part, maybe there's more elsewhere and maybe it's where the forensics get mentioned. If the link doesn't work, just go to more local news under the news section.

Thanks for the link:smile:

"BB: Do you, do you recall the, the date 'a when the, um, when the DVD was released to the public?


TA: I have no idea. I didn't have nuthin ta do with that release. I have no idea. I can tell you it's been a nightmare since."

That was a comment from Commander Therese Avilla.

It has been a nightmare alright...for the little boy!!!:cursing:

[Justice_Dawg]

I'm heading off to work, but wanted to list a new article at abc, 15.com, Northern Arizona news. Part of a 100 page transcript of an interview of the detective(s) who interviewed the boy. Done by the child's lawyer, Brewer. One of the detectives had only been a detective for one day. Gets crazier everyday.

www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/St-Johns-interviewer-of-boy-was-detective-for/xEzlyHgNmUGsYs3PAJqelA.cspx


This is a very small part, maybe there's more elsewhere and maybe it's where the forensics get mentioned. If the link doesn't work, just go to more local news under the news section.

I read that in the transcripts. It says State calls "Officer" Neckles, then she says, "but now I'm a detective"

I thought she got a promotion for the "confession" at the time . :w00t:

[bkwits]

I'll bet there isn't a parent on here who hasn't done the same thing when they knew that their child was lying...I know I did. You do what you have to do to get the kid to tell you the truth when you know for a fact that they are lying to you. Lying to me was one thing that I couldn't stand for my kids to do. They knew if they lied about something that they had actually done they would be in more trouble then if they just owned up to it. I used to tell my kids "look me right in the eyes and tell me" and if they were lying they could not look into my eyes. Happened every time. My son would usually start laughing when he was lying so I always knew when he was trying to pull something over on me. Call it manipulation, leading, or what have you but it is a ploy that parents the world around use. What parent wants their kids to grow up to be crafty liars? They lie and they should be called on it.

Maybe the ladies talking to this boy knew that he was lying because of the evidence too.

Oh sure. I've interrogated my kids too. BUT, these are not parents questioning a little child about a misdeed. These are police officers leading the child into saying what they want him to say. Even then, it didn't quite come out right. His rights should have been protected, like those of any citizen. I am appalled at this. :cursing:

[GentleBreeze]

do you have a link to those papers? I haven't seen any of that before.

I have a link that is talking about the child support issues.

http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/stories/StJohns-local-news-111108-divorce-details-2x-murde.1a37a0964.html


Dad fought for custody of son suspected of murdering him

[bkwits]

I'm heading off to work, but wanted to list a new article at abc, 15.com, Northern Arizona news. Part of a 100 page transcript of an interview of the detective(s) who interviewed the boy. Done by the child's lawyer, Brewer. One of the detectives had only been a detective for one day. Gets crazier everyday.

www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/St-Johns-interviewer-of-boy-was-detective-for/xEzlyHgNmUGsYs3PAJqelA.cspx


This is a very small part, maybe there's more elsewhere and maybe it's where the forensics get mentioned. If the link doesn't work, just go to more local news under the news section.


OMG, this is worse than I thought. Commader Avila did not advise the child he could have someone in the room, she did not advise him that he could leave if he felt uncomfortable, she said she considered him a victim and not a suspect. YET SHE LIED TO HIM AND TOLD HIM SOMEONE SAW HIM KILL THE TWO MEN. :cursing:

At no time did either officer advise the child of his rights. Oh that's right, children don't have any rights, do they?

[bkwits]

I have a link that is talking about the child support issues.

http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/stories/StJohns-local-news-111108-divorce-details-2x-murde.1a37a0964.html


Dad fought for custody of son suspected of murdering him


It didn't work out too well, it seems.

[GentleBreeze]

It didn't work out too well, it seems.

Seems not, since the boy is suspected of murdering him.

imoo

[Justice_Dawg]

I have a link that is talking about the child support issues.

http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/stories/StJohns-local-news-111108-divorce-details-2x-murde.1a37a0964.html


Dad fought for custody of son suspected of murdering him

I wrote worse about my x to keep custody. :tonguewag:

[GentleBreeze]

I wrote worse about my x to keep custody. :tonguewag:

Well from what Vincent revealed it seemed to be enough for the Judge to grant physical custody of the boy to him.

[Justice_Dawg]

Well from what Vincent revealed it seemed to be enough for the Judge to grant physical custody of the boy to him.

From what I revealed, (not all truth either) it was enough for the Judge to grant me physical custody too.

I don't think the Religious issues should even be allowed.
MOO

[bkwits]

Seems not, since the boy is suspected of murdering him.

imoo


Regardless of who killed the two men, the child wouldn't be in this situation if the father had not given him a rifle, ammunition and taught him to shoot. IMO

[Justice_Dawg]

Regardless of who killed the two men, the child wouldn't be in this situation if the father had not given him a rifle, ammunition and taught him to shoot. IMO

Touche :thumbsup:

Guns 101: Lock them up unless in use.
(Especially if you leave your 8 yr old home ALONE for 2 hours 2 days a week!!)

[FurthurBB]

OMG, this is worse than I thought. Commader Avila did not advise the child he could have someone in the room, she did not advise him that he could leave if he felt uncomfortable, she said she considered him a victim and not a suspect. YET SHE LIED TO HIM AND TOLD HIM SOMEONE SAW HIM KILL THE TWO MEN. :cursing:

At no time did either officer advise the child of his rights. Oh that's right, children don't have any rights, do they?

Could someone post a working link?

[GentleBreeze]

Regardless of who killed the two men, the child wouldn't be in this situation if the father had not given him a rifle, ammunition and taught him to shoot. IMO

That may be your entitled opinion but it sure isn't mine. The hunting gun was bought for, and used to shoot wild game, and if it had been used only for its intended purpose, it would have never harmed another human being, much less, two.

The gun could have laid there collecting dust forever. It is always the mindset of the murderer who picks up any weapon and uses it against human beings.

Without the murderous intent, this would never have happened, no matter what weapon was available in the home, which can consist of many multitudes of weapons, that are also used for other intended purposes.

imoo

[lurkinghere2]

I think this will work.

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/St-Johns-interviewer-of-boy-was-detective-for/xEzlYHgNmUGsYs3PAJqelA.cspx

[bkwits]

That may be your entitled opinion but it sure isn't mine. The hunting gun was bought for, and used to shoot wild game, and if it had been used only for its intended purpose, it would have never harmed another human being, much less, two.

The gun could have laid there collecting dust forever. It is always the mindset of the murderer who picks up any weapon and uses it against human beings.

Without the murderous intent, this would never have happened, no matter what weapon was available in the home, which can consist of many multitudes of weapons, that are also used for other intended purposes.

imoo

Talk about entitlement: I think that an 8 year old child is entitled to responsible parents who look out for his safety (and those of others). What is so compelling about teaching a small child to shoot a dangerous weapon to kill animals at 8 years old. We don't live in frontier days.

Okay, if the dad really felt he had to do that (against the advice of his wife and presumably his pastor), why not keep the weapon and ammunition away from an unsupervised child. This is just common sense. IMO

[Details]

Regarding http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/St-Johns-interviewer-of-boy-was-detective-for/xEzlYHgNmUGsYs3PAJqelA.cspx

I wonder if that question, that lie, where the detective says "someone saw him" is where the myth that there's more evidence against this boy comes from. I've heard a poster (same person who talks about the boy's demeanor at the funeral that he never attended) talk about how people saw him go straight into the home from school, but there's no link, and no one has that information - I wonder if they based that on the detective's statement in the interrogation that someone saw him.

And interesting that that lie didn't get him to change the story in the least. If he had killed the men, and if he had been lying like an adult, as some believe, and giving more details whenever they brought up something he'd know he was going to be proven wrong about - he'd have likely changed his story to even closer to something that fits the crime scene if he was seen. But he doesn't. Because (IMO) he has no clue what the crime scene looks like, and has made up the best story he can figure out to satisfy these two police officers.

Lying during an interview is a good tool to get the truth from adults - they've got a stronger sense of reality, consequences, and aren't as likely to make up a lie that implicates themselves (although sometimes it still happens). But for kids - they believe the police, they're taught to take all adults, and particularly those in authority, as authority figures, to be obeyed and believed. This poor kid doesn't even know how many times the men were shot - and they're still ready to take his confession without corroberating evidence, and lock him away.

[Details]

OMG, this is worse than I thought. Commader Avila did not advise the child he could have someone in the room, she did not advise him that he could leave if he felt uncomfortable, she said she considered him a victim and not a suspect. YET SHE LIED TO HIM AND TOLD HIM SOMEONE SAW HIM KILL THE TWO MEN. :cursing:

At no time did either officer advise the child of his rights. Oh that's right, children don't have any rights, do they?Yep, lied and told him that - and he still didn't come up with any confession that remotely resembled the murders.

[GentleBreeze]

Talk about entitlement: I think that an 8 year old child is entitled to responsible parents who look out for his safety (and those of others). What is so compelling about teaching a small child to shoot a dangerous weapon to kill animals at 8 years old. We don't live in frontier days.

Okay, if the dad really felt he had to do that (against the advice of his wife and presumably his pastor), why not keep the weapon and ammunition away from an unsupervised child. This is just common sense. IMO

Who said the Priest advised against it? That sounds highly unlikely if Vincent asked the Priest for advice in the first place. If this Priest is from the area then he is well aware that there are many hunting families who live in his area, teach their child at a young age how to shoot a youth model gun. I did see where he said he thought the child didn't realize what he has done. I haven't seen him say he advised VR not to teach this boy to hunt.

Vincent had faith in this boy that he would do as he was instructed to do just like he had done when he was a boy. Vincent had acquired this gun from his mother, when he was about the same age, it shows that he abided by the rules and for 21 years never accessed this gun or any other to use it against another human being.

The step mom said he needed a BB/air rifle gun. From his own words he already had one. She may have not known that at the time.

imoo

[lurkinghere2]

Who said the Priest advised against it? That sounds highly unlikely if Vincent asked the Priest for advice in the first place. If this Priest is from the area then he is well aware that there are many hunting families who live in his area, teach their child at a young age how to shoot a youth model gun. I did see where he said he thought the child didn't realize what he has done. I haven't seen him say he advised VR not to teach this boy to hunt.

Vincent had faith in this boy that he would do as he was instructed to do just like he had done when he was a boy. Vincent had acquired this gun from his mother, when he was about the same age, it shows that he abided by the rules and for 21 years never accessed this gun or any other to use it against another human being.

The step mom said he needed a BB/air rifle gun. From his own words he already had one. She may have not known that at the time.

imoo

Yeah, that one has been in several articles. I'll see if I can find a link for you.

[GentleBreeze]

OMG, this is worse than I thought. Commader Avila did not advise the child he could have someone in the room, she did not advise him that he could leave if he felt uncomfortable, she said she considered him a victim and not a suspect. YET SHE LIED TO HIM AND TOLD HIM SOMEONE SAW HIM KILL THE TWO MEN. :cursing:

At no time did either officer advise the child of his rights. Oh that's right, children don't have any rights, do they?

Where does she say she told him someone saw him kill the two men?:confused:

TA: I believe I did, uh, I believe I did at one point, um, saying that someone saw him, and, um, that was the only time.


BB: And why would you do that if he was still a victim?


TA: Trying ta get him ta open up, ta come on ta say no, it was somebody else that did it. L-like I say, very, it was very, much that we thought, well we walked in there and that's where our mindset was, at least I can say my mindset was. Was that he was coverin fer someone.


BB: What ha, uh, so, just, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, but sounds like, yer wanting ta him, to basically, scare him into a position where he will, ultimately tell the truth?


TA: Ultimately tell us who was in there.

imo

[lurkinghere2]

Where does she say she told him someone saw him kill the two men?:confused:

TA: I believe I did, uh, I believe I did at one point, um, saying that someone saw him, and, um, that was the only time.


BB: And why would you do that if he was still a victim?


TA: Trying ta get him ta open up, ta come on ta say no, it was somebody else that did it. L-like I say, very, it was very, much that we thought, well we walked in there and that's where our mindset was, at least I can say my mindset was. Was that he was coverin fer someone.


BB: What ha, uh, so, just, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, but sounds like, yer wanting ta him, to basically, scare him into a position where he will, ultimately tell the truth?


TA: Ultimately tell us who was in there.

imo

BB: And, and what, what about, there was a comment by, um, uh, Commander Avilla that, that she, said she had, someone had seen him, do it.
Do you recall that?

DN: I, I do recall that, and I remember thinking at the time she stated that that she got it wrong...

[bkwits]

Who said the Priest advised against it? That sounds highly unlikely if Vincent asked the Priest for advice in the first place. If this Priest is from the area then he is well aware that there are many hunting families who live in his area, teach their child at a young age how to shoot a youth model gun. I did see where he said he thought the child didn't realize what he has done. I haven't seen him say he advised VR not to teach this boy to hunt.

Vincent had faith in this boy that he would do as he was instructed to do just like he had done when he was a boy. Vincent had acquired this gun from his mother, when he was about the same age, it shows that he abided by the rules and for 21 years never accessed this gun or any other to use it against another human being.

The step mom said he needed a BB/air rifle gun. From his own words he already had one. She may have not known that at the time.

imoo

I saw the priest on TV and he stated that the boy was too young to have been taught shooting and given a weapon. A priest wouldn't directly state what he said to the man in confidence, IMO.

I don't think a deadly weapon should be given to a child like a toy. Vincent could have at least have locked up ammunition.

The child, innocent or guilty, would not be in this predicament, if his father had been a responsible parent. I'm sorry but I do not believe your seemingly "born killer" theory. IMO

[GentleBreeze]

Yeah, that one has been in several articles. I'll see if I can find a link for you.

Thanks, I have read many articles about it but have not heard Sauter say what he advised Vincent to do. I have heard him say that he thought he was too young to realize what he has done.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

I saw the priest on TV and he stated that the boy was too young to have been taught shooting and given a weapon. A priest wouldn't directly state what he said to the man in confidence, IMO.

I don't think a deadly weapon should be given to a child like a toy. Vincent could have at least have locked up ammunition.

The child, innocent or guilty, would not be in this predicament, if his father had been a responsible parent. I'm sorry but I do not believe your seemingly "born killer" theory. IMO


You can blame the victims if you desire, bkwts, for their own deaths but I simply will not. That gun would have never harmed another person just laying there and that is a fact. It would just rust and collect dust, if not used. I would no more blame a parent for their own death if they had been bludgeoned with a baseball bat, that they bought their child, aka murderer, for sport's use or a kitchen knife that the mother may have used daily while preparing their meals.

The predicament is that there are two dead men today that had just as much right to life as any other and there is no way going back to rectify any of it.

imoo

[lurkinghere2]

Thanks, I have read many articles about it but have not heard Sauter say what he advised Vincent to do. I have heard him say that he thought he was too young to realize what he has done.

imo

I could be remembering things like this statement and taking it as what he told the dad.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/11/08/child.charged.ap/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

"He wanted to make sure the kid wasn't afraid of guns, knew how to handle it," the priest said. "He was just too young. ... That child, I don't think he knows what he did, and it was brutal."

ETA:
I concede to his not telling reports how he advised. Several articles say that. It has been so widely reported that advice was sought and Sauter saying he was too young, that I think I was taking it to be what he told the dad -- not his commentary later.

[bkwits]

Who said the Priest advised against it? That sounds highly unlikely if Vincent asked the Priest for advice in the first place. If this Priest is from the area then he is well aware that there are many hunting families who live in his area, teach their child at a young age how to shoot a youth model gun. I did see where he said he thought the child didn't realize what he has done. I haven't seen him say he advised VR not to teach this boy to hunt.

Vincent had faith in this boy that he would do as he was instructed to do just like he had done when he was a boy. Vincent had acquired this gun from his mother, when he was about the same age, it shows that he abided by the rules and for 21 years never accessed this gun or any other to use it against another human being.

The step mom said he needed a BB/air rifle gun. From his own words he already had one. She may have not known that at the time.

imoo

Do you really believe it is responsible gun ownership to leave guns and ammunition around where children can get them?

Children do things they are not supposed to do. Things they have been warned against doing ...all the time.

But suppose, this child was very obedient, and never touched the weapons when his parent wasn't home. Don't you think other children might visit that house. He was alone for several hours each week. IMO

[bkwits]

You can blame the victims if you desire, bkwts, for their own deaths but I simply will not. That gun would have never harmed another person just laying there and that is a fact. It would just rust and collect dust, if not used. I would no more blame a parent for their own death if they had been bludgeoned with a baseball bat, that they bought their child, aka murderer, for sport's use or a kitchen knife that the mother may have used daily while preparing their meals.

The predicament is that there are two dead men today that had just as much right to life as any other and there is no way going back to rectify any of it.


imoo

I don't blame the victims for their own deaths. I never said that. I don't know who killed them. Until I know better, I do blame Vincent for putting his son in this predicament (as I said, wheter the child shot them or not). IMO

ETA Please don't put words in my mouth. TY

[Justice_Dawg]

BB: And, and what, what about, there was a comment by, um, uh, Commander Avilla that, that she, said she had, someone had seen him, do it.
Do you recall that?

DN: I, I do recall that, and I remember thinking at the time she stated that that she got it wrong...

unreal :cursing::cursing::cursing:

[GentleBreeze]

I don't blame the victims for their own deaths. I never said that. I don't know who killed them. Until I know better, I do blame Vincent for putting his son in this predicament (as I said, whether the child shot them or not). IMO

What predicament did he place this boy in?

Are all parents supposed to have the mindset that their very own children may be plotting to murder them? What a chilling thought. How can any parent wrap their minds around that about a child they love and raise? Because in THIS case, that is what we have. This is certainly not about a gun safety issue concerning this child. This boy wasn't harmed whatsoever by this gun, ever.

What Vincent did was put faith and trust in his child to do as he told him he must do and what he had done when he was a child this age. This boy betrayed that trust given to him by his father.

And there are absolutely no statistics anywhere that supports that young children who are taught to hunt game wind up murdering their parents. So why are so many able to understand and respect the rules at this age and even younger yet this boy could not? Of course he understood perfectly and that is why he picked this weapon of choice because he knows it kills and head shots are done to keep the animal from suffering.

So yes, he used his prior skills when he had an intent to use the weapon for another intended purpose that it was never intended to be used for.

imoo

[Justice_Dawg]

Some people should NOT be allowed to HAVE or RAISE a child. :rolleyes:

[bkwits]

What predicament did he place this boy in?

Are all parents supposed to have the mindset that their very own children may be plotting to murder them? What a chilling thought. How can any parent wrap their minds around that about a child they love and raise? Because in THIS case, that is what we have. This is certainly not about a gun safety issue concerning this child. This boy wasn't harmed whatsoever by this gun, ever.

What Vincent did was put faith and trust in his child to do as he told him he must do and what he had done when he was a child this age. This boy betrayed that trust given to him by his father.

And there are absolutely no statistics anywhere that supports that young children who are taught to hunt game wind up murdering their parents. So why are so many able to understand and respect the rules at this age and even younger yet this boy could not? Of course he understood perfectly and that is why he picked this weapon of choice because he knows it kills and head shots are done to keep the animal from suffering.

So yes, he used his prior skills when he had an intent to use the weapon for another intended purpose that it was never intended to be used for.

imoo

IMO, you have it backwards. The child should put his faith and trust in his parent. We don't know what Vincent did or didn't do when he was a child. That is totally irrelevant here.

I disagree that the child wasn't hurt. IMO he is hurting now as are the rest of the two families.

I don't agree that a firearm is a harmless toy that only an evil person or child could misuse.

If Vincent wanted to teach his young child to shoot, he should have taken the responsibility for doing that. It seems that he didn't. The boy (innocent or guilty) is in jail because of it. IMO

[Crispy]

What predicament did he place this boy in?

Are all parents supposed to have the mindset that their very own children may be plotting to murder them? What a chilling thought. How can any parent wrap their minds around that about a child they love and raise? Because in THIS case, that is what we have. This is certainly not about a gun safety issue concerning this child. This boy wasn't harmed whatsoever by this gun, ever.

What Vincent did was put faith and trust in his child to do as he told him he must do and what he had done when he was a child this age. This boy betrayed that trust given to him by his father.

And there are absolutely no statistics anywhere that supports that young children who are taught to hunt game wind up murdering their parents. So why are so many able to understand and respect the rules at this age and even younger yet this boy could not? Of course he understood perfectly and that is why he picked this weapon of choice because he knows it kills and head shots are done to keep the animal from suffering.

So yes, he used his prior skills when he had an intent to use the weapon for another intended purpose that it was never intended to be used for.

imoo

Even if he didn't think his child would murder him...what about his childs safety. Was he not worried the boy would accidentally shoot himself, or a friend. IMO if you have a gun you should put it up to where a child doesn't have access to it. Even if you want to have it handy for your own protection, lock it up when your not home, lock your bedroom door. Something. It's not just the fact that his kid could murder him with it. It's just basic safety. of course, that's jmo.

[bkwits]

Even if he didn't think his child would murder him...what about his childs safety. Was he not worried the boy would accidentally shoot himself, or a friend. IMO if you have a gun you should put it up to where a child doesn't have access to it. Even if you want to have it handy for your own protection, lock it up when your not home, lock your bedroom door. Something. It's not just the fact that his kid could murder him with it. It's just basic safety. of course, that's jmo.

I agree.

That's just common sense and responsible parenting. IMO

[GentleBreeze]

IMO, you have it backwards. The child should put his faith and trust in his parent. We don't know what Vincent did or didn't do when he was a child. That is totally irrelevant here.

I disagree that the child wasn't hurt. IMO he is hurting now as are the rest of the two families.

I don't agree that a firearm is a harmless toy that only an evil person or child could misuse.

If Vincent wanted to teach his young child to shoot, he should have taken the responsibility for doing that. It seems that he didn't. The boy (innocent or guilty) is in jail because of it. IMO

Where do you expect him to be since the Judge ruled there is probable cause that he is involved? When people are accused and charged with a crime they go to jail whether it is juvie or adult jail.:confused:

How did his parents betray their trust? Did they harm him with the weapon, even accidentally? No. They placed all the firearms in their master bedroom away from him. And of course we know what Vincent has done as a child when using the gun. If there was anything at all untoward in his behavior it would have long been released by the media. His mother trusted him to have the weapon. I see no where that he betrayed that trust she instilled in him.

Or are you saying the parent failed to protect THEMSELVES against someone who wanted them dead?:confused: How would Vincent ever know that his own child was plotting to murder him? What parent thinks like that or could even comprehend such?

This isn't about guns being harmless toys (which I have no idea where that came from) but it is about a gun that was taken without permission, behind the back of this parent and used to kill him and his friend.

[IAMME]

It isn't about thinking your children are plotting your murder! :cursing:

When I was a child there were loaded guns all over the house, my mother had a .38 that was loaded and if not on her person was kept in plain sight on her nightstand, now I knew that if I were to touch a gun she would use it to KILL me. (exaggerating, but close.) I also walked and rode my bike (without a helmet) all over a big town, rode the public bus, went trick or treating BY MYSELF all when I was around 8 or 9, noone knew where I was until the street lights came on and it was time to come home. I wasnt in a carseat EVER in my life as a matter of fact my mother has described some sort of car basinet that i rode in unrestrained, and as an older child I vividly remember standing in the back seat leaned on the front.

But today is a VERY different world than the one we grew up in, as responsible parents we now KNOW BETTER!! :crying:

I too have a .38 for personal protection, it is loaded but has a trigger lock and the key is with me if I am not home, It is also PUT UP where my children cannot get to it, not because I think my kids are going to murder me when I come home, but because I am afraid that they might shoot themselves or each other, or a friend, as with EVERY other area in their lifes, my safety is last, theirs is first. This is part of responsible gun ownership, even the NRA advocates that parents keep guns from falling into the hands of children!! Eddie Eagle????

It is completely fair to say that Vincent Romero was an unresponsible parent, and if the fact that his son had easy access to LOADED weapons then any sane judge in this country would have reversed custody IMO.

[blue bird]

Where does she say she told him someone saw him kill the two men?:confused:

TA: I believe I did, uh, I believe I did at one point, um, saying that someone saw him, and, um, that was the only time.


BB: And why would you do that if he was still a victim?


TA: Trying ta get him ta open up, ta come on ta say no, it was somebody else that did it. L-like I say, very, it was very, much that we thought, well we walked in there and that's where our mindset was, at least I can say my mindset was. Was that he was coverin fer someone.


BB: What ha, uh, so, just, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, but sounds like, yer wanting ta him, to basically, scare him into a position where he will, ultimately tell the truth?


TA: Ultimately tell us who was in there.

imo

I recall you saying you were Ocean/Jaddedblueeys at one point in time, sorry if I'm wrong. If I'm right :seeya:

I remember posting with you way back in the Kobe Bryant case - is that correct? It's been a long time.

If so, from my memory, you were appalled by the way the LE questioned KB and the way the DA handled the case.

If I'm mistaken, my apologizes, but if I'm not, how can you not be appalled by the way this case has been handled by LE/DA?

[IAMME]

How the heck do you edit??

this sentence should have read:
It is completely fair to say that Vincent Romero was an unresponsible parent, and if the fact that his son had easy access to LOADED weapons had been presented then any sane judge in this country would have reversed custody IMO.

http://www.nrahq.org/safety/eddie/infoparents.asp

"Store guns so that they are inaccessible to children and other unauthorized users. Gun shops sell a wide variety of safes, cases, and other security devices. While specific security measures may vary, a parent must, in every case, assess the exposure of the firearm and absolutely ensure that it is inaccessible to a child."

Note it says "absolutely ensure" not "place your trust in an 8 y/o"

[bookie]

You don't leave guns lying around and expect to slap a kid on the wrist if he takes them 'without permission'.... there is no excuse for having guns in the house that are accessible, period. They should be locked up so there is no possibility a child can use them. And, now you have this kid "plotting to murder" his father :cursing:


In some states parents have been charged when their children got ahold of their guns. It is negligent to leave loaded guns anywhere that children can get to them.

NORWICH, Conn., Sept. 19 (UPI) -- A Connecticut couple whose toddler killed himself with his father's handgun have been charged with negligent storage of a firearm and endangering a minor.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/09/19/Parents_charged_after_toddler_shoots_self/UPI-29211221851631/

[GentleBreeze]

Why do some of you on here insist on sermonizing this kid already... now you are associating him with having "the mindset of a murderer" and with having "murderous intent". Parents who leave guns unlocked and that gun is used by a child should be held accountable regardless of what intent you want to lay on the child without really even knowing.

The DA has charged him with two premeditated double homicides and that does consistent of intent and aforethought.

This is not a case about where a parent should be held responsible should their child take a weapon and accidentally shoot themselves or others.

imo

[bkwits]

The DA has charged him with two premeditated double homicides and that does consistent of intent and aforethought.

This is not a case about where a parent should be held responsible should their child take a weapon and accidentally shoot themselves or others.

imo


What if a 8 year old child shoots another child because that other child is bullying him. Is that acceptable to you? After all, he is only defending himself.

[IAMME]

The DA has charged him with two premeditated double homicides and that does consistent of intent and aforethought.

This is not a case about where a parent should be held responsible should their child take a weapon and accidentally shoot themselves or others.

imo


So you think it was okay that there were guns and ammo readily accesible to this child? To any child? Do you have guns? Children?

Why shouldn't they be held responsible? I realize that Vincent has already paid the ultimate price for his negligence, but what about Tiffany, shouldn't she be held responsible?

[GentleBreeze]

So you think it was okay that there were guns and ammo readily accessible to this child? To any child? Do you have guns? Children?

Why shouldn't they be held responsible? I realize that Vincent has already paid the ultimate price for his negligence, but what about Tiffany, shouldn't she be held responsible?

To claim any responsibility it would have to be proved that the guns were loaded at the time and the parents knew it. As far as I am aware and due to him loading and reloading, even leaving a unspent bullet in the gun, there is no evidence that it was already loaded but loaded at the time of the shooting.

Tim Romans also knew of the guns in the home including that the 8 year old had a youth model rifle that he shot, so Tim would be very aware of any risks, if there was any before this happened.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

What if a 8 year old child shoots another child because that other child is bullying him. Is that acceptable to you? After all, he is only defending himself.

Self defense is only when one is imminent grave danger and threatened with being badly injured or death, at the very moment in time.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

You don't leave guns lying around and expect to slap a kid on the wrist if he takes them 'without permission'.... there is no excuse for having guns in the house that are accessible, period. They should be locked up so there is no possibility a child can use them. And, now you have this kid "plotting to murder" his father :cursing:

I go by what the PC said. He said he did plot and carryout these murders.

Laying in wait is plotting to carryout a plan.

imoo

[bkwits]

Self defense is only when one is imminent grave danger and threatened with being badly injured or death, at the very moment in time.

imoo

In your opinion, is an 8 year old able to make that distinction? Maybe he thinks he is in danger of being badly injured. Should he shoot the (say) bigger boy who is beating him up?

Just where do you draw the line?

[GentleBreeze]

I recall you saying you were Ocean/Jaddedblueeys at one point in time, sorry if I'm wrong. If I'm right :seeya:

I remember posting with you way back in the Kobe Bryant case - is that correct? It's been a long time.

If so, from my memory, you were appalled by the way the LE questioned KB and the way the DA handled the case.

If I'm mistaken, my apologizes, but if I'm not, how can you not be appalled by the way this case has been handled by LE/DA?

Yes, that would be me but I didnt post much in the KB case. LOL I am even drawing a blank now on what you are mentioning but maybe it will come to me. So many cases........so many years. :smile:

But I do remember posting with you before.

:seeya:

[Justice_Dawg]

I recall you saying you were Ocean/Jaddedblueeys at one point in time, sorry if I'm wrong. If I'm right :seeya:

I remember posting with you way back in the Kobe Bryant case - is that correct? It's been a long time.

If so, from my memory, you were appalled by the way the LE questioned KB and the way the DA handled the case.

If I'm mistaken, my apologizes, but if I'm not, how can you not be appalled by the way this case has been handled by LE/DA?OceanBlueEyes yearrrrrrrrs ago. :scared:

[Justice_Dawg]

I go by what the PC said. He said he did plot and carryout these murders.

Laying in wait is plotting to carryout a plan.

imoo

Who is he?

[GentleBreeze]

In your opinion, is an 8 year old able to make that distinction? Maybe he thinks he is in danger of being badly injured. Should he shoot the (say) bigger boy who is beating him up?

Just where do you draw the line?

No, he should not shoot the boy who is beating him up but the bully should be arrested and charged with assault imo.

I dont believe anyone should kill anyone unless they are being attacked at the time and are in fear of losing their life.

VR was shot from behind, in his back and elbow, while walking up his stairs. No threat there with the shooter behind his back. Tim Romans surely was no threat. He was outside the home and came to assist this boy then shot. He had no weapon whatsoever in his hand, the shooter had the weapon used.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Who is he?

:confused:

[Justice_Dawg]

OR if the first marriage wasn't in the catholic church. Then the church wouldn't recognize that marriage, but would this one, as his first.

Tiffany had a lot of red in her Wedding Dress. That was a big NO NO when I was a Catholic. :confused:

[GentleBreeze]

It isn't about thinking your children are plotting your murder! :cursing:

When I was a child there were loaded guns all over the house, my mother had a .38 that was loaded and if not on her person was kept in plain sight on her nightstand, now I knew that if I were to touch a gun she would use it to KILL me. (exaggerating, but close.) I also walked and rode my bike (without a helmet) all over a big town, rode the public bus, went trick or treating BY MYSELF all when I was around 8 or 9, noone knew where I was until the street lights came on and it was time to come home. I wasn't in a carseat EVER in my life as a matter of fact my mother has described some sort of car basinet that i rode in unrestrained, and as an older child I vividly remember standing in the back seat leaned on the front.

But today is a VERY different world than the one we grew up in, as responsible parents we now KNOW BETTER!! :crying:

I too have a .38 for personal protection, it is loaded but has a trigger lock and the key is with me if I am not home, It is also PUT UP where my children cannot get to it, not because I think my kids are going to murder me when I come home, but because I am afraid that they might shoot themselves or each other, or a friend, as with EVERY other area in their lifes, my safety is last, theirs is first. This is part of responsible gun ownership, even the NRA advocates that parents keep guns from falling into the hands of children!! Eddie Eagle????

It is completely fair to say that Vincent Romero was an irresponsible parent, and if the fact that his son had easy access to LOADED weapons then any sane judge in this country would have reversed custody IMO.

Do you know that more children under the age of 10 years old lose their lives to vehicle accidents, house fires, bicycle accidents, drown in water, than they are accidentally shot with a firearm?

I guess we will have to stop driving cars, not live in houses, not buy bikes or have swimming pools nor take them to waterway areas in order to protect them.

imoo

[IAMME]

§13-3623 A. Under circumstances likely to produce death or serious physical injury, any person who causes a child or vulnerable adult to suffer physical injury or, having the care or custody of a child or vulnerable adult, who causes or permits the person or health of the child or vulnerable adult to be injured or who causes or permits a child or vulnerable adult to be placed in a situation where the person or health of the child or vulnerable adult is endangered is guilty of an offense as follows:

1. If done intentionally or knowingly, the offense is a class 2 felony and if the victim is under fifteen years of age it is punishable pursuant to section 13-604.01.

2. If done recklessly, the offense is a class 3 felony.

3. If done with criminal negligence, the offense is a class 4 felony.

13-3613. Contributing to delinquency and dependency; classification; procedure

A. A person who by any act, causes, encourages or contributes to the dependency or delinquency of a child, as defined by section 13-3612, or who for any cause is responsible therefor is guilty of a class 1 misdemeanor.

B. The procedure and prosecution shall be the same as in other criminal cases.

C. When the charge concerns the dependency of a child or children, the offense for convenience may be termed contributory dependency, and when the charge concerns the delinquency of a child or children, the offense for convenience may be termed contributory delinquency.


13-3619
A person having custody of a minor under sixteen years of age who knowingly causes or permits the life of such minor to be endangered, its health to be injured or its moral welfare to be imperiled, by neglect, abuse or immoral associations, is guilty of a class 1 misdemeanor.


Mandatory reporting includes step-parents. And while I am sure there will be arguements that the clergy, teachers, and his own mother did not report this neglect, they did not live in the home, and we cannot say for a fact that they were aware that the weapons were not secured, we do know however that Tiffany knew this, as the boy said he had put the weapons up at her request. So she endangered a minor, and contributed to his delinquency(if he did it). She should be charged, she broke at least those laws. I disagree that the guns would have to be loaded, they gave him easy access to the guns AND the ammo, and they taught him to load and use the gun.

[bkwits]

No, he should not shoot the boy who is beating him up but the bully should be arrested and charged with assault imo.

I dont believe anyone should kill anyone unless they are being attacked at the time and are in fear of losing their life.

VR was shot from behind, in his back and elbow, while walking up his stairs. No threat there with the shooter behind his back. Tim Romans surely was no threat. He was outside the home and came to assist this boy then shot. He had no weapon whatsoever in his hand, the shooter had the weapon used.

imoo

My point was that I do not feel that an 8 year old is equipped to make that distinction; therefore, should not have access to guns and ammunition when not supervised closely.

Where I live, in Illinois, that would be a crime against the person not securing the weapon adequately (from minors, under 14).

[Justice_Dawg]

So what that is what they are chargin him with. It wouldn't be the first time a zealous prosecutor has tried to make such claims against a defendent. That does not mean the kid is guilty or that what you or they say is even cognitively possible or likely now does it? Let alone what the evidence does or doesn't support. :rolleyes:

Evidence ? The Prosection hasn't handed any of that over (forensics, ballistics, autopsy reports). Mr. Wood said he should have had it 10-14 days tops. It has been a month. As of last night about 7 est. they STILL had NOTHING.

Monday's status hearing should be interesting.

[GentleBreeze]

This boy has been charged with 2 Class A Felonies.

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/DELINQUENCY%20PETITION.pdf

[Justice_Dawg]

Do you know that more children under the age of 10 years old lose their lives to vehicle accidents, house fires, bicycle accidents, drown in water, than they are accidentally shot with a firearm?

I guess we will have to stop driving cars, not live in houses, not buy bikes or have swimming pools nor take them to waterway areas in order to protect them.

imoo

GUNS KILL- ADULTS GO TO JAIL FOR IT!
-----------------
December 4, 2008
Police chief indicted after Uzi death of boy, 8

The longtime police chief of a small Western Massachusetts town was one of three people indicted today on involuntary manslaughter charges for the death of an 8-year-old boy who fatally shot himself with a machine gun at a weapons exposition in Westfield.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2008/12/police_chief_in.html?p1=Well_MostPop_Emailed6

[bkwits]

Do you know that more children under the age of 10 years old lose their lives to vehicle accidents, house fires, bicycle accidents, drown in water, than they are accidentally shot with a firearm?

I guess we will have to stop driving cars, not live in houses, not buy bikes or have swimming pools nor take them to waterway areas in order to protect them.

imoo

This is getting into the usual specious NRA drivel. Our governments regulate, and have safety laws protecting children for all of those life necessities and amenities that you mentioned. As we do for giving guns to children under 10.

[LindaNJ1216]

From what I revealed, (not all truth either) it was enough for the Judge to grant me physical custody too.

I don't think the Religious issues should even be allowed.
MOO

You lied? Wow....such integrity:ohmy:

[IAMME]

Do you know that more children under the age of 10 years old lose their lives to vehicle accidents, house fires, bicycle accidents, drown in water, than they are accidentally shot with a firearm?

I guess we will have to stop driving cars, not live in houses, not buy bikes or have swimming pools nor take them to waterway areas in order to protect them.

imoo

No but we buckle them up, teach them to swim, teach them water safety, and supervise them when they are in water, we put up fences to prevent accidents, we install pool alarms, we make them wear helmets while riding bikes, we teach them road safety, and supervise them, we install smoke detectors, we do mock fire drills, we also vaccinate them even thought there are certain risks (including death), and teach them how to approach strange dogs, and to avoid strangers, provide them with safety equipment when playign sports and teach safe sporting techniques all to minimize the risks they face, we also teach them gun safety, and we make sure that our guns and ammo is inaccessible to children, and that they have supervision when using firearms it is called being responsible citizens and parents. We cannot insulate them against all risk, but it is our duty and we are not only morally bound but LEGALLY bound to protect them as much as we can. IMO

[bookie]

This boy has been charged with 2 Class A Felonies.

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/DELINQUENCY%20PETITION.pdf



The Duke Lacrosse boys were charged with felony rape. Cynthia Sommer was charged with and convicted of felony murder. Being charged with and even convicted in some cases doesn't mean the person is guilty.

[bookie]

No but we buckle them up, teach them to swim, teach them water safety, and supervise them when they are in water, we put up fences to prevent accidents, we install pool alarms, we make them wear helmets while riding bikes, we teach them road safety, and supervise them, we install smoke detectors, we do mock fire drills, we also vaccinate them even thought there are certain risks (including death), and teach them how to approach strange dogs, and to avoid strangers, provide them with safety equipment when playign sports and teach safe sporting techniques all to minimize the risks they face, we also teach them gun safety, and we make sure that our guns and ammo is inaccessible to children, and that they have supervision when using firearms it is called being responsible citizens and parents. We cannot insulate them against all risk, but it is our duty and we are not only morally bound but LEGALLY bound to protect them as much as we can. IMO



Excellent post!?! :thumbsup:

[Justice_Dawg]

No but we buckle them up, teach them to swim, teach them water safety, and supervise them when they are in water, we put up fences to prevent accidents, we install pool alarms, we make them wear helmets while riding bikes, we teach them road safety, and supervise them, we install smoke detectors, we do mock fire drills, we also vaccinate them even thought there are certain risks (including death), and teach them how to approach strange dogs, and to avoid strangers, provide them with safety equipment when playign sports and teach safe sporting techniques all to minimize the risks they face, we also teach them gun safety, and we make sure that our guns and ammo is inaccessible to children, and that they have supervision when using firearms it is called being responsible citizens and parents. We cannot insulate them against all risk, but it is our duty and we are not only morally bound but LEGALLY bound to protect them as much as we can. IMO


Right On!:thumbsup:

[IAMME]

This boy has been charged with 2 Class A Felonies.

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/DELINQUENCY%20PETITION.pdf

And IF he is found guilty then Tiffany Romero should be charged with delinquency of a minor.

And they should charge her immediately with the other crimes she has commited under arizona law posted above.

IMO

[Justice_Dawg]

And IF he is found guilty then Tiffany Romero should be charged with delinquency of a minor.

And they should charge her immediately with the other crimes she has commited under arizona law posted above.

IMO

:thumbsup: You are on a roll! :thumbsup:

[LindaNJ1216]

Regarding http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/St-Johns-interviewer-of-boy-was-detective-for/xEzlYHgNmUGsYs3PAJqelA.cspx

I wonder if that question, that lie, where the detective says "someone saw him" is where the myth that there's more evidence against this boy comes from. I've heard a poster (same person who talks about the boy's demeanor at the funeral that he never attended) talk about how people saw him go straight into the home from school, but there's no link, and no one has that information - I wonder if they based that on the detective's statement in the interrogation that someone saw him.

And interesting that that lie didn't get him to change the story in the least. If he had killed the men, and if he had been lying like an adult, as some believe, and giving more details whenever they brought up something he'd know he was going to be proven wrong about - he'd have likely changed his story to even closer to something that fits the crime scene if he was seen. But he doesn't. Because (IMO) he has no clue what the crime scene looks like, and has made up the best story he can figure out to satisfy these two police officers.

Lying during an interview is a good tool to get the truth from adults - they've got a stronger sense of reality, consequences, and aren't as likely to make up a lie that implicates themselves (although sometimes it still happens). But for kids - they believe the police, they're taught to take all adults, and particularly those in authority, as authority figures, to be obeyed and believed. This poor kid doesn't even know how many times the men were shot - and they're still ready to take his confession without corroborating evidence, and lock him away.

I base it on his claiming he walked around the block 10-11 times and waved to people. Those people never saw him.

His bookbag was under the kitchen table. Had he stumbled upon the scene before Tim was murdered...went inside...put his bookbag under the table....find his dad through a cloud of smoke...seen his bloody head...walked outside then accidentally shot Tim?????

Or if he had no part in the shootings...were supposed to believe he walked over a dead Tim...through a cloud of smoke & stuck his bookbag under the table then found his dad...???????

[LindaNJ1216]

Regarding http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/St-Johns-interviewer-of-boy-was-detective-for/xEzlYHgNmUGsYs3PAJqelA.cspx

I wonder if that question, that lie, where the detective says "someone saw him" is where the myth that there's more evidence against this boy comes from. I've heard a poster (same person who talks about the boy's demeanor at the funeral that he never attended) talk about how people saw him go straight into the home from school, but there's no link, and no one has that information - I wonder if they based that on the detective's statement in the interrogation that someone saw him.

And interesting that that lie didn't get him to change the story in the least. If he had killed the men, and if he had been lying like an adult, as some believe, and giving more details whenever they brought up something he'd know he was going to be proven wrong about - he'd have likely changed his story to even closer to something that fits the crime scene if he was seen. But he doesn't. Because (IMO) he has no clue what the crime scene looks like, and has made up the best story he can figure out to satisfy these two police officers.

Lying during an interview is a good tool to get the truth from adults - they've got a stronger sense of reality, consequences, and aren't as likely to make up a lie that implicates themselves (although sometimes it still happens). But for kids - they believe the police, they're taught to take all adults, and particularly those in authority, as authority figures, to be obeyed and believed. This poor kid doesn't even know how many times the men were shot - and they're still ready to take his confession without corroberating evidence, and lock him away.

BTW I've taught my child to be able to think for himself and NOT blindly obey and trust all adults.

[GentleBreeze]

This is getting into the usual specious NRA drivel. Our governments regulate, and have safety laws protecting children for all of those life necessities and amenities that you mentioned. As we do for giving guns to children under 10.


No, actually that information comes from the Center of Disease Control.

They would still have to prove that the gun was kept loaded at the time. There were many guns there and if none of the others in their cases were loaded then how are they going to prove this one was when we know that the shooter reloaded it nine times?

imoo

[IAMME]

BTW I've taught my child to be able to think for himself and NOT blindly obey and trust all adults.

SO if you were to tell your child to stay away from the guns.........

[Justice_Dawg]

BTW I've taught my child to be able to think for himself and NOT blindly obey and trust all adults.

Even Police?

[Justice_Dawg]

SO if you were to tell your child to stay away from the guns.........

:lol::lol::lol:

[IAMME]

No, actually that information comes from the Center of Disease Control.

They would still have to prove that the gun was kept loaded at the time. There were many guns there and if none of the others in their cases were loaded then how are they going to prove this one was?

imoo

No they would have to prove that the guns and ammo were accessible and that the child had been taught to put the two together. IMO

[GentleBreeze]

Hi, everybody! Just a quick post and run to find out what's going on with this case.

Hey, has anybody come up with ANY evidence directly linking the boy to the crime?


Didn't think so......

Have a great weekend! :thumbsup:

I dont think the trial has started yet. :cool:

[GentleBreeze]

No they would have to prove that the guns and ammo were accessible and that the child had been taught to put the two together. IMO

Well it has been a month and no one else has been arrested, even for a misdemeanor.

[Justice_Dawg]

Hi, everybody! Just a quick post and run to find out what's going on with this case.

Hey, has anybody come up with ANY evidence directly linking the boy to the crime?


Didn't think so......

Have a great weekend! :thumbsup:

The prosecutors can't even do that!!!:tonguewag:

[IAMME]

Well it has been a month and no one else has been arrested, even for a misdemeanor.

So, do you believe that the sole reason to suspect a person of a crime is if charges are brought against them?:confused:

[LindaNJ1216]

Why do some of you on here insist on demonizing this kid already... now you are associating him with having "the mindset of a murderer" and with having "murderous intent". Parents who leave guns unlocked and that gun is used by a child should be held accountable regardless of what intent you want to lay on the child without really even knowing.

If he's done what LE, DA and the judge thinks there's evidence enough that he shot them. He did most certainly have the mindset of a murderer.

[LindaNJ1216]

In some states parents have been charged when their children got ahold of their guns. It is negligent to leave loaded guns anywhere that children can get to them.

NORWICH, Conn., Sept. 19 (UPI) -- A Connecticut couple whose toddler killed himself with his father's handgun have been charged with negligent storage of a firearm and endangering a minor.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/09/19/Parents_charged_after_toddler_shoots_self/UPI-29211221851631/


this happened in AZ

[bkwits]

[QUOTE=bookie;12499859]The Duke Lacrosse boys were charged with felony rape. Cynthia Sommer was charged with and convicted of felony murder. Being charged with and even convicted in some cases doesn't mean the person is guilty.[/QUOTE

I could mention a dozen or so (just that I know about) in the greater Chicago area who have been charged with murder and then found to be innocent. Again I point specifically to the 7 and 8 year old boys from the southside of Chicago who were given the details of how Ryan Harris's body was found, and then led into confessions (with no one save LE present). Meanwhile, Floyd Durr, the rapist and murderer of ll y.o. Ryan was free to do more harm. :cursing:

And on and on.

[bkwits]

this happened in AZ


It would also be a crime in Arizona.

[bkwits]

No they would have to prove that the guns and ammo were accessible and that the child had been taught to put the two together. IMO

That is my understanding of AZ law also.

[GentleBreeze]

So, do you believe that the sole reason to suspect a person of a crime is if charges are brought against them?:confused:

In order to suspect them? Hmm yes, I think when a Judge rules there is probable cause then it is okay to "suspect" or have suspicion that they did the crime.

The trial is where the evidence comes in to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt but at this time yes, I think there is enough to suspect him.

imoo

[LindaNJ1216]

This is getting into the usual specious NRA drivel. Our governments regulate, and have safety laws protecting children for all of those life necessities and amenities that you mentioned. As we do for giving guns to children under 10.

It's illegal in AZ???

link please

[IAMME]

In order to suspect them? Hmm yes, I think when a Judge rules there is probable cause then it is okay to "suspect" or have suspicion that they did the crime.

The trial is where the evidence comes in to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt but at this time yes, I think there is enough to suspect him.

imoo

So you personally would not suspect someone, unless they had been charged with a crime, am I understanding you correctly?

[bookie]

this happened in AZ



Since I've obviously been following thecase I know where it happened If it's good enough for other states it should be good enough for Arizona. Parents are supposed to be the responsible persons and NOT leave guns where children can get to them.

[IAMME]

It's illegal in AZ???

link please

I didnt provide links but the Arizona code is listed above. Also it is illegal for a child that age to have possesion of a firearm without adult supervision, and would be cause to find the child delinquent (under arizona gun laws). SO based on that the adults in this house contributed to the delinquency of a minor in this case, IF in fact he fired the gun. Also they caused him to be in immediate danger by allowing him access to what the average person would consider a dangerous object for a child.........a 2nd degree felony....

[LindaNJ1216]

SO if you were to tell your child to stay away from the guns.........

HUH?

How does that relate to what I posted?

I've already answered that question....way back

[LindaNJ1216]

Even Police?


Even police.

[GentleBreeze]

So you personally would not suspect someone, unless they had been charged with a crime, am I understanding you correctly?

I am not sure what you mean. "I" don't know anyone that has been charged with a crime or who was even suspected of doing a crime but never charged. Sorry.:confused:

[IAMME]

HUH?

How does that relate to what I posted?

I've already answered that question....way back


I'm sorry I musta missed it. Your children have been taught not to obey all adults, and to think for themselves. Yet you have stated that this child broke his fathers trust by not obeying. I dont understand the logic.:unsure:

[Justice_Dawg]

Even police.

Then teach them that they have the RIGHT to remain Silent, and teach them to USE IT !

JMHO

[IAMME]

I am not sure what you mean. "I" don't know anyone that has been charged with a crime or who was even suspected of doing a crime but never charged. Sorry.:confused:

I'm sorry I didnt mean someone you knew personally, i mean you (in your opinion) personally, I'm not sure if that makes more sense......

Basically I am asking if the DA had not charged this boy would you believe he was a suspect, based on other info. we have, assuming of course that you were aware of the case.

[Justice_Dawg]

I'm sorry I musta missed it. Your children have been taught not to obey all adults, and to think for themselves. Yet you have stated that this child broke his fathers trust by not obeying. I dont understand the logic.:unsure:

You don't understand because there isn't any logic.

[LindaNJ1216]

I'm sorry I musta missed it. Your children have been taught not to obey all adults, and to think for themselves. Yet you have stated that this child broke his fathers trust by not obeying. I dont understand the logic.:unsure:

Show me where I staed this child broke his father's trust?

I grew up in a family full of hunters. I had access to loaded weapons and was taught to shoot at a very young age. I was totally trusted by my parents. I never betrayed that trust. I enjoyed target and skeet shooting very much. I am the only person in my family that has never been hunting ...

I have a 10 yr old son whose incredibly trustworthy, honor student, and all around great kid. I do not have guns in my house because I have a son. I trust my son and he's earned that trust. But would I bet his life on it? Absolutely not!!!!!!!!!!!!

[LindaNJ1216]

Then teach them that they have the RIGHT to remain Silent, and teach them to USE IT !

JMHO

I have. He once was a witness to a domestic dispute involving neighbors, when the police wanted to speak to him he said...sure but you have to call my mom and dad first. I am not allowed to talk to you without them. snicker!

The police got a huge kick out of it and praised him for knowing his rights;)

[Justice_Dawg]

My point was that I do not feel that an 8 year old is equipped to make that distinction; therefore, should not have access to guns and ammunition when not supervised closely.

Where I live, in Illinois, that would be a crime against the person not securing the weapon adequately (from minors, under 14).

O/T

Did you hear Jerry Hobbs may be innocent?

[bkwits]

Show me where I staed this child broke his father's trust?

I grew up in a family full of hunters. I had access to loaded weapons and was taught to shoot at a very young age. I was totally trusted by my parents. I never betrayed that trust. I enjoyed target and skeet shooting very much. I am the only person in my family that has never been hunting ...

I have a 10 yr old son whose incredibly trustworthy, honor student, and all around great kid. I do not have guns in my house because I have a son. I trust my son and he's earned that trust. But would I bet his life on it? Absolutely not!!!!!!!!!!!!

Makes very good sense to me.

:thumbsup:

[Crispy]

I have. He once was a witness to a domestic dispute involving neighbors, when the police wanted to speak to him he said...sure but you have to call my mom and dad first. I am not allowed to talk to you without them. snicker!

The police got a huge kick out of it and praised him for knowing his rights;)

LOL That's funny! I taught my oldest to say I refuse to answer on the grounds I might incriminate myself. It was funny the first couple times, but then when he did something, I was trying to ask him if he did, he popped that off. It was my own fault.

Sorry, I know it's O/T

back to the case, the prosecution only has a couple more days to decide to charge him as an adult. I believe the middle of next week. jmo

[bkwits]

O/T

Did you hear Jerry Hobbs may be innocent?


I wasn't following that case, but I will try to catch up. Looks interesting. He confessed, didn't he?

[Justice_Dawg]

LOL That's funny! I taught my oldest to say I refuse to answer on the grounds I might incriminate myself. It was funny the first couple times, but then when he did something, I was trying to ask him if he did, he popped that off. It was my own fault.

Sorry, I know it's O/T

back to the case, the prosecution only has a couple more days to decide to charge him as an adult. I believe the middle of next week. jmo

My son used it for all it was worth, now he is a 2nd yr. Law Student. :biggrin:
---
If "the deal" is accepted by defense (Which I highly doubt at this point) the state says he will never be tried as an adult.

[Justice_Dawg]

I wasn't following that case, but I will try to catch up. Looks interesting. He confessed, didn't he?

New evidence, however, suggests that Hobbs's confession is false and that police tunnelvision may have let the true killer or killers go free. DNA testing has found semen on swabs taken from Laura Hobbs's body cavities as well as fabric on her jean skirt. The semen is not from Hobbs. :shrug:
http://blog.law.northwestern.edu/bluhm/2008/11/dna-test-results-suggest-that-jerry-hobbss-confession-is-false.html

False confessions happen all the time...
DNA doesn't lie.
I can't wait for the state to let us know which gun was used to kill VR and TR.
GRS tests on cloths should be in soon too.

[IAMME]

Show me where I staed this child broke his father's trust?

I grew up in a family full of hunters. I had access to loaded weapons and was taught to shoot at a very young age. I was totally trusted by my parents. I never betrayed that trust. I enjoyed target and skeet shooting very much. I am the only person in my family that has never been hunting ...

I have a 10 yr old son whose incredibly trustworthy, honor student, and all around great kid. I do not have guns in my house because I have a son. I trust my son and he's earned that trust. But would I bet his life on it? Absolutely not!!!!!!!!!!!!


I apologize, I had you confused with another poster.

[bkwits]

New evidence, however, suggests that Hobbs's confession is false and that police tunnelvision may have let the true killer or killers go free. DNA testing has found semen on swabs taken from Laura Hobbs's body cavities as well as fabric on her jean skirt. The semen is not from Hobbs. :shrug:
http://blog.law.northwestern.edu/bluhm/2008/11/dna-test-results-suggest-that-jerry-hobbss-confession-is-false.html

False confessions happen all the time...
DNA doesn't lie.
I can't wait for the state to let us know which gun was used to kill VR and TR.
GRS tests on cloths should be in soon too.

I am anxiously awaiting that to. Geesh, on the TV cop shows, they get ballistics right away.
:glare:
I wonder about GSR also. I think the Pros. is trying to save face. Prob without the so-called confession, they have nothing.

[Crispy]

I am waiting for the evidence to come back. I'm not a patient person.:glare:

[Justice_Dawg]

I am anxiously awaiting that to. Geesh, on the TV cop shows, they get ballistics right away.
:glare:
I wonder about GSR also. I think the Pros. is trying to save face. Prob without the so-called confession, they have nothing.

ITA!!! :thumbsup:

[bkwits]

I am waiting for the evidence to come back. I'm not a patient person.:glare:

St. Johns LE should be hugely embarrassed by the video and the cops interview with Brewer.

In the video the boy looks about the size of a 6 year old. Those two cops are really bearing down on him. Lying to him, trying to trap him. He never gives a coherent story, never. IMO

[Justice_Dawg]

I am waiting for the evidence to come back. I'm not a patient person.:glare:

Defense usually has direct evidence info 10-14 days after a crime.

Something is wrong here.

imo

[IAMME]

[QUOTE=bkwits;12500131]I am anxiously awaiting that to. Geesh, on the TV cop shows, they get ballistics right away.
:glare:QUOTE]


Funny.:lol::lol:

[GentleBreeze]

I'm sorry I didn't mean someone you knew personally, i mean you (in your opinion) personally, I'm not sure if that makes more sense......

Basically I am asking if the DA had not charged this boy would you believe he was a suspect, based on other info. we have, assuming of course that you were aware of the case.

Oh, I see what you mean.

I guess if he had not charged him that we wouldn't know anything about him but that is the way it is in every case. I think we all know that a case has to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt though to a Judge or jury.

moo

[IAMME]

St. Johns LE should be hugely embarrassed by the video and the cops interview with Brewer.

In the video the boy looks about the size of a 6 year old. Those two cops are really bearing down on him. Lying to him, trying to trap him. He never gives a coherent story, never. IMO


I was slightly comforted by that today, in the transcript, she did appear to be embarrassed, the comment about it being a nightmare and wishing she didnt have to admit to being a detective for only a day. State police/Feds should be brought in to investigate this PD IMO. (We had this happen in the corrupt little town I live in a few years ago...)

[GentleBreeze]

Defense usually has direct evidence info 10-14 days after a crime.

Something is wrong here.

imo

In the Sarah Walker case it took up to 6 weeks to get some of their forensic results back. These labs are way overburdened and behind as it is and there has been cutbacks on staff due to the shaky economy. Each LE has to get in line when using State labs or the Feds.

imoo

[IAMME]

Oh, I see what you mean.

I guess if he had not charged him that we wouldn't know anything about him but that is the way it is in every case. I think we all know that a case has to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt though to a Judge or jury.

moo

If he wasn't 8 we wouldnt know anything about him.
Okay, assume you did know every other fact we have, and that they had not charged him, would you think it was the boy? In your opinion..

[GentleBreeze]

I was slightly comforted by that today, in the transcript, she did appear to be embarrassed, the comment about it being a nightmare and wishing she didn't have to admit to being a detective for only a day. State police/Feds should be brought in to investigate this PD IMO. (We had this happen in the corrupt little town I live in a few years ago...)

She had been a detention officer for 2 years though or something like that, right?

Don't they interrogate juveniles?

How long as the Commander been on her job?

imoo

[Crispy]

OK maybe I missed this or maybe I just wasn't paying attention.

In the transcript of the hearing (Vol 1 Part B Page 42), the guy, Rodriguez?, said no other type of 22 was found in the house. In the crime scene photos they have a pic of a manual for a Mossberg. Where is that gun?

[GentleBreeze]

If he wasn't 8 we wouldn't know anything about him.
Okay, assume you did know every other fact we have, and that they had not charged him, would you think it was the boy? In your opinion..

LOL Maybe I am just very tired but I am having a very hard time grasping what you are saying. But here goes. Yes, I would still suspect the boy even if he had not been arrested, if I knew everything I know now.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

OK maybe I missed this or maybe I just wasn't paying attention.

In the transcript of the hearing (Vol 1 Part B Page 42), the guy, Rodriguez?, said no other type of 22 was found in the house. In the crime scene photos they have a pic of a manual for a Mossberg. Where is that gun?

He may have sold it. The manual looked like it was kept with the rest of his guns that were kept in their individual soft cases. He may not have given the manual to whomever if he sold it.

imoo

[LindaNJ1216]

LOL That's funny! I taught my oldest to say I refuse to answer on the grounds I might incriminate myself. It was funny the first couple times, but then when he did something, I was trying to ask him if he did, he popped that off. It was my own fault.

Sorry, I know it's O/T

back to the case, the prosecution only has a couple more days to decide to charge him as an adult. I believe the middle of next week. jmo


OK..It's my understanding IF he's charged as an adult that would be he would be placed in a secure residential facilty for youthful violent offenders where he would be educated and recieve intensive therapy until he's 18 yrs old. It's my understanding at that time he would be evaluated and it would be determined at that time if he was rehabiliated, he'd be released. If he was deemed to still be a danger he would then be moved to an adult prison.

Is this incorrect? Is that how it works in AZ?

If that is correct...what's wrong with that?

[IAMME]

In the "confession" tape the boy says that his grandfather keeps his gun at their house and that it is like his only bigger and they ask him if its the same brand and he says no it is a ______ but that it shoots the same bullets, which i took to mean it is a .22 rifle, just not a youth model. Does anyone remember what kind of gun it is he says his grandfather has? I would look but I am fixing to have to start getting ready, I have a girls night planned, so if I suddenly stop posting, I am not ignoring, it just means my friend showed up and made me get off the computer :blushing:....

[Crispy]

In the Sarah Walker case it took up to 6 weeks to get some of their forensic results back. These labs are way overburdened and behind as it is and there has been cutbacks on staff due to the shaky economy. Each LE has to get in line when using State labs or the Feds.

imoo

Isn't that a bunch of bull? This stuff is important. I thought I read a while back that California is so far behind that a lot of rape cases can't even be prosecuted because they have reached the statute of limitations!!

[IAMME]

LOL Maybe I am just very tired but I am having a very hard time grasping what you are saying. But here goes. Yes, I would still suspect the boy even if he had not been arrested, if I knew everything I know now.

imoo


Okay then, knowing everything you know now, and knowing that you dont base your beliefs on arrest, then how can you believe that Tiffany and Vincent Romero, and Tim Romans were not guilty of child neglect and endangerment, and delinquency of a minor under Arizona state law?

[GentleBreeze]

I am waiting for the evidence to come back. I'm not a patient person.:glare:

:smile: Dont give up, I bet the Judge has it covered. He knows how it goes. :wink:

[LindaNJ1216]

If he wasn't 8 we wouldn't know anything about him.
Okay, assume you did know every other fact we have, and that they had not charged him, would you think it was the boy? In your opinion..

I would suspect him, as we know he was there and if his step mother didn't have a verifiable alabi............ I'd suspect her as well

[Justice_Dawg]

He may have sold it. The manual looked like it was kept with the rest of his guns that were kept in their individual soft cases. He may not have given the manual to whomever if he sold it.

imoo

You crack me up.

[Justice_Dawg]

I would suspect him, as we know he was there and if his step mother didn't have a verifiable alabi............ I'd suspect her as well

What makes you think she does?

[GentleBreeze]

Okay then, knowing everything you know now, and knowing that you don't base your beliefs of arrest, then how can you believe that Tiffany and Vincent Romero, and Tim Romans were not guilty of child neglect and endangerment, and delinquency of a minor under Arizona state law?

I just don't see any evidence of it at this time. If the guns weren't loaded then they are not a risk. We have no idea how he was able to retrieved the weapon or how he was able to obtain the bullets. IMO, he had been in the home for awhile before T and V came home from work. I believe, but could be wrong, that as long as the parent or a supervising adult is present all the time that they can take their young children hunting with them.

As far as I know in AZ there are no laws that require that firearms must be locked and secured. It sure isn't the law in my state either. I will search for a link to their gun laws on what must be done when guns are in the home but I am of the opinion they had no legal requirement to do so and this includes all AZ citizens and it is reasonable that many of them have children.

Tim Romans had no responsibility concerning this child. This was not his home or his possessions nor his child. Now I can see a civil case brought by the Romans family but then in all civil cases there are degrees of culpability even with the victim and what they knew can lesson that weight. He certainly knew that guns were inside the home and he knew that this boy shot a .22 youth model rifle, when they hunted, so they wouldn't be able to say he wasn't aware of the risks.

But I do not believe they will charge Tiffany with anything. But I can see your point that they could if they wanted to, I guess but I really think they think losing her husband this tragically is punishment enough to last her a lifetime.

imoo

[mina]

Intriguing blog post from a co-worker of Tiffany R.:
...
Vincent Romero was my co-worker's husband. They have been married 2 months.
…
Everything happened around 5 PM that day, but Tiffany sent us a fax out of no where, and she said she just "felt" like it had to be said, and she said it hit her hard. It is amazing to me how the spirit can prompt us in all sorts of ways. There were feelings this whole day that she should just call her husband and apologize, and say I love you, thirty minutes before the incident happened. And the little boy had a feeling to not go home yet, so he walked around the block for a long time. I just am thankful we have the gospel in our lives.
…
http://bethanygentry.blogspot.com/2008/11/tragic.html


The blogger says she started her job at WMTP in early August:
…
And as for my new job I have. I started it today! It was quite intimidating and very overwhelming. I am now working for White Mountain Physical Therapy.
…
http://bethanygentry.blogspot.com/2008/08/church-calling-and-work.html

[LindaNJ1216]

What makes you think she does?

She must! I'm sure LE/DA would prefer her to an 8 yr old!

[GentleBreeze]

You crack me up.

LOL! I can relate. I know the feeling.:lol:

[lurkinghere2]

I would suspect him, as we know he was there and if his step mother didn't have a verifiable alabi............ I'd suspect her as well

Does she? 'cause I haven't heard one.

[GentleBreeze]

Isn't that a bunch of bull? This stuff is important. I thought I read a while back that California is so far behind that a lot of rape cases can't even be prosecuted because they have reached the statute of limitations!!

Isn't that just horrible?

It is quite a problem, Crispy, and it is only going to get worse. With 10,500 homicides each year that culminates into many pieces of forensic evidence being sent in every case they just cant seem to catch their breaths.

That is why many times when the killer is unknown it takes several months for an arrest when they have finally tested the evidence they were sent and got the hit they needed.

The Judge knows how long it usually takes there, I am sure. If they need to speed up he will tell them and give them a final deadline.

imoo

[Crispy]

Arizona doesn't have a law about locking your guns. I still have some reading to do, but I did learn that according to federal law necrophiliacs can't have guns.....

[GentleBreeze]

She must! I'm sure LE/DA would prefer her to an 8 yr old!

Imo, all day long.

With this defendant he is caught between what is justice for the two victims and what is justice when the crime is done by a juvenile this age.

I don't envy the man but he must do his job, no matter what age the defendant is. I am sure he would trade the defendant in a heartbeat for an adult. It sure would be easier to try the case.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Arizona doesn't have a law about locking your guns. I still have some reading to do, but I did learn that according to federal law necrophiliacs can't have guns.....

Thank you. I thought I had read that too they have no legal requirements to secure their guns. I will still try to find the link though.

imoo

[Crispy]

http://crime.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=crime&cdn=newsissues&tm=45&f=00&tt=11&bt=0&bts=0&zu=http%3A//www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/statelaws/23rdedition/arizona.pdf

Arizona gun laws

[bookie]

I just don't see any evidence of it at this time. If the guns weren't loaded then they are not a risk. We have no idea how he was able to retrieved the weapon or how he was able to obtain the bullets. IMO, he had been in the home for awhile before T and V came home from work. I believe, but could be wrong, that as long as the parent or a supervising adult is present all the time that they can take their young children hunting with them.

As far as I know in AZ there are no laws that require that firearms must be locked and secured. It sure isn't the law in my state either. I will search for a link to their gun laws on what must be done when guns are in the home but I am of the opinion they had no legal requirement to do so and this includes all AZ citizens and it is reasonable that many of them have children.

Tim Romans had no responsibility concerning this child. This was not his home or his possessions nor his child. Now I can see a civil case brought by the Romans family but then in all civil cases there are degrees of culpability even with the victim and what they knew can lesson that weight. He certainly knew that guns were inside the home and he knew that this boy shot a .22 youth model rifle, when they hunted, so they wouldn't be able to say he wasn't aware of the risks.

But I do not believe they will charge Tiffany with anything. But I can see your point that they could if they wanted to, I guess but I really think they think losing her husband this tragically is punishment enough to last her a lifetime.

imoo



How do you figure??? You believe the boy shot and killed 2 men. If the gun was unloaded and he shot them then the unloaded gun was a HUGE risk.

[GentleBreeze]

Does she? 'cause I haven't heard one.

I am sure the police knows where she was. The boy may have even told them that night since he knew she was going to be late. They said when she arrived at the scene he ran up to her, hugged her and cried.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

How do you figure??? You believe the boy shot and killed 2 men. If the gun was unloaded and he shot them then the unloaded gun was a HUGE risk.

An unloaded gun is no risk at all. It is empty.

No bullets.

imoo

[Justice_Dawg]

I am sure the police knows where she was. The boy may have even told them that night since he knew she was going to be late. They said when she arrived at the scene he ran up to her, hugged her and cried.

imo

Yes, and in "the confession" the boys says "she told you she went to the store"

Did she stop at home for a few minutes???
Tapes from the store will tell.

[GentleBreeze]

http://crime.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=crime&cdn=newsissues&tm=45&f=00&tt=11&bt=0&bts=0&zu=http%3A//www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/statelaws/23rdedition/arizona.pdf

Arizona gun laws

Thank you, you are much faster than I am.

imoo

[LindaNJ1216]

Arizona doesn't have a law about locking your guns. I still have some reading to do, but I did learn that according to federal law necrophiliacs can't have guns.....

:thumbsup: Yeah...wouldn't want them accidentially shooting any dead people:lol:

[GentleBreeze]

Yes, and in "the confession" the boys says "she told you she went to the store"

Did she stop at home for a few minutes???
Tapes from the store will tell.

I doubt it but they have long known if her alibi checks out or not.

In such a small town that would be easy to do.

imoo

[bookie]

An unloaded gun is no risk at all. It is empty.

No bullets.

imoo


A box of bullets was found on a table near the stairs so there was not only an unsecured weapon but the ammunition for it within reach of a small child. HUGE risk!!!

[Justice_Dawg]

:thumbsup: Yeah...wouldn't want them accidentially shooting any dead people:lol:

:punch: ROFLMAO!