Dec 1 -

[LindaNJ1216]

edited
Your partner Linda, who you feel so "in synch" with on this issue has stated that this child is not like other children his age and you say all minors should be treated the same across the board.
:rose:

Please direct me where anyone stated "all minors should be treated the same across the board".

[beattherap]

Did you miss the words "May" and "Somewhat"? this is the age group just beginning to understand the realities of death. But they don't have it completely yet. They can and often do think they caused the death.

No an 8 yr old does not understand "laying in wait" or "murder" they are certainly capable of pulling a trigger but that doesn't mean they comprehend the full results of doing so.

TopsyCrete
what is so funny about my dads Myspace? many older people have them, in fact it looks like many in his church do. He has a daughter 25yr, I have one that age as well (yeah BIG gape between his two kids lol) and is why I have one.
He uses it to keep in touch with my mother- his first true love- I find it romantic not funny.
i get the 'may,' which is why i don't say 8 year-olds 'don't or 'can't' understand the finality of death... imo, you don't get the 'may.'...

can a child understand all the emotions or consequences of death or murder or form the legal intent to commit murder are different questions imo than understanding 'getting rid of forever.'
imo.

[LindaNJ1216]

I'm not sure if I'm doing this right, so correct me if I'm not, but Gentle Breeze said the following:

"I just don't understand why this particular case is supposed to be tried differently than any other case. When did our laws change and some are done one way and some are done another way? I thought the justice system is for all, straight across the board? All juveniles are under the same rule if it is being tried in juvenile court. All adults are under the same law if they are in the Adult court system."

I added the bold.


I don't see where she said "should"

She stated how she thought it was and questioned why this case is different.

[beattherap]

First, not all experts agree on this topic so citing one expert doesn't cut it. Second, the concept of death is complex and trying to claim one aspect of it, "permanence", can prove this 8 year old fully understands the concept because he is 'old enough' or whatever is ridiculous. Third, I'm really wondering why some of you seem to really want to see this kid guilty and want to claim he's basically adultlike at all, let alone this early in the case.

i don't know if you include me in the "some of you seem to really want to see this kid guilty..."... i said i don't have an opinion on his innocence or guilt... i've watched the video, but am not nearly as up on the documents as many of you...

the one question, Can an 8-year-old understand that shooting bullets into a living person forever end that person's life ?... imo, the answer is a definite yes, no matter how many personal anecdotes are posted.
imo.

[LindaNJ1216]

i don't know if you include me in the "some of you seem to really want to see this kid guilty..."... i said i don't have an opinion on his innocence or guilt... i've watched the video, but am not nearly as up on the documents as many of you...

the one question, Can an 8-year-old understand that shooting bullets into a living person forever end that person's life ?... imo, the answer is a definite yes, no matter how many personal anecdotes are posted.
imo.

BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:beer:

[frances1]

Frances-most people start with the basis of someone being innocent until they can see enough evidence to support guilt. While not the same as in a court room, it certainly is the acceptable way of treating one another-as you would want to be treated.

Most of us are assuming he didn't do it because there has not been enough evidence presented to show us that he did. The confession doesn't count, because most don't buy it.

Oh...and plus...he's 8 years old...still believes in Santa Clause....

IMO

That is exactly my point. In being rational, you can't 'assume'. I can understand not wanting it to be true, but we simply don't know all the facts, confession not withstanding. Sorry, the 'golden rule' doesn't apply to criminal cases, no matter the age of the defendant.

[LindaNJ1216]

Linda...why are you toasting beers? There is nothing to toast about. This is one of the most tragic cases I can ever remember and it seems as though you are enjoying yourself.
:no:

The poster made an EXCELLENT point and I agreed 100%

I wasn't toasting the case and I certainly don't take any pleasure in it.

again ................common sense seems to fly right out of the window around here. :rolleyes:imo

[steffaroob4]

If we all respect each other we can learn from each other's opinions. Please STOP lumping people into groups and taking jabs at them, it doesn't help. I am talking to ALL of you, now behave please, before we get shut down, I like having a forum for this case. CW runs a tight ship, and nobody wins when these little forum spats start.

[PensiveOne]

I just read a venting rant of my dads on his Myspace... He is retired LE and his rant was about Nancy Grace and those like her who are trying cases in the media making it impossible for any dependent to receive a fair trial- guilty or innocent. Take it for what it is worth but it was his career and is the same thing I have been saying for years. Everyone who loves to pipe in with "IUPG" is a legal term simply don't understand the concept and use that as an excuse.

Every media report that interjects someones opinion or point of view taints potential jurors. crime reporting should be just the facts nothing more.
We are free to discuss it and debate back and forth without harm to the defendant here on a message board and we are free to have an opinion since we can't taint the case. But the media should facts.

IUPG was so much more than a simple legal issue to our founding fathers. It is such a shame most people have forgotten that.

Do me a favor, since your Dad is LE. Ask him if the boy should have been shaking from adrenalin. I have some experience with this. My cousin shot and killed his step father. I was there that evening and when they broght him into the house to be questioned he was shaking violently. I turned to my father and said, "He must have been scared to death." An officer who was standing beside us said, "No, they always shake like that afterwards it is from the adrenalin." He said that even he shook like that after a close call. My cousin shook like that for the whole 3 hours we were there.

So what I want to know is if that is true, then the boy we are all talking about should have been shaking with adrenalin. I don't see any mention of that. JMO.

[bookie]

That is exactly my point. In being rational, you can't 'assume'. I can understand not wanting it to be true, but we simply don't know all the facts, confession not withstanding. Sorry, the 'golden rule' doesn't apply to criminal cases, no matter the age of the defendant.


The "confession" doesn't fit the crime scene. There is no assumption there. The boy says he shot each man twice but they were shot 4 and 6 times. The blood in the driveway doesn't match his story either. He said he sat with his father's body for 30 minutes but that didn't happen either.

It is easy to see how this boy told police what they wanted to hear and not what really happened.

[GentleBreeze]

The "confession" doesn't fit the crime scene. There is no assumption there. The boy says he shot each man twice but they were shot 4 and 6 times. The blood in the driveway doesn't match his story either. He said he sat with his father's body for 30 minutes but that didn't happen either.

It is easy to see how this boy told police what they wanted to hear and not what really happened.

Why would they want him to say he sat with his father for 30 minutes or that he shot them two times?

But he did tell them half truths. They will be able to take it from there when doing the forensics.

[emdragon]

Do me a favor, since your Dad is LE. Ask him if the boy should have been shaking from adrenalin. I have some experience with this. My cousin shot and killed his step father. I was there that evening and when they broght him into the house to be questioned he was shaking violently. I turned to my father and said, "He must have been scared to death." An officer who was standing beside us said, "No, they always shake like that afterwards it is from the adrenalin." He said that even he shook like that after a close call. My cousin shook like that for the whole 3 hours we were there.

So what I want to know is if that is true, then the boy we are all talking about should have been shaking with adrenalin. I don't see any mention of that. JMO.

That is a great observation and If I can get an answer from my dad I'll let you know.

[bkwits]

The "confession" doesn't fit the crime scene. There is no assumption there. The boy says he shot each man twice but they were shot 4 and 6 times. The blood in the driveway doesn't match his story either. He said he sat with his father's body for 30 minutes but that didn't happen either.

It is easy to see how this boy told police what they wanted to hear and not what really happened.

Nor does the bullet hole in the screen door.

[bookie]

Why would they want him to say he sat with his father for 30 minutes or that he shot them two times?

But he did tell them half truths. They will be able to take it from there when doing the forensics.


I didn't say they wanted him to say he sat with his dad, I was pointing out how he made up a story for police. That story didn't fit known facts or the crime scene.

You see half truths I see another MC case.

[muska]

The "confession" doesn't fit the crime scene. There is no assumption there. The boy says he shot each man twice but they were shot 4 and 6 times. The blood in the driveway doesn't match his story either. He said he sat with his father's body for 30 minutes but that didn't happen either.

It is easy to see how this boy told police what they wanted to hear and not what really happened.

He also said that he put the gun in the closet but it was found on top of the dog cage, and he told his grandmother that his father had been shot in the chest and that turned out also to be incorrect.

[GentleBreeze]

I didn't say they wanted him to say he sat with his dad, I was pointing out how he made up a story for police. That story didn't fit known facts or the crime scene.

You see half truths I see another MC case.

But it isn't that uncommon that a suspect will tell some half truths in their statement and not fully disclose other things.

imoo

[bookie]

But it isn't that uncommon that a suspect will tell some half truths in their statement and not fully disclose other things.

imoo



Maybe it's not uncommon with adult suspects but we are talking about an 8 year old child. The majority of his story didn't fit the scene. He didn't just leave a couple of facts out. I don't see this child sitting there deciding "I'm going to tell them this but not going to tell them that."

O/t but what happened to the multi-quote function? Thanks bkbits and muska. I knew there was more that he said that didn't fit but couldn't find the link to the confession to go back through it to add more. I added what I could recall right off hand.

[GentleBreeze]

He also said that he put the gun in the closet but it was found on top of the dog cage, and he told his grandmother that his father had been shot in the chest and that turned out also to be incorrect.

What he said did not make sense but that does not mean he didn't do this. We just don't know but LE and the DA thinks he did and even the defense attorney is waiting to see what the DA has.

You are right his story didn't mesh as being true at times or did it and he just didn't realize it? He said that when he discovered his dad that his face was already covered in blood. Then he said he fired two shots then to end his suffering. He got that from hunting game where head shots end the suffering of the animal. He sure didn't shoot him in the elbow and his back to end his suffering. He did the two head shots YET he says his father's face was already covered in blood when he found him, which could only come from already being shot in the head, when the boy first said he nudged him with the toe of his shoe.

It is not so much about his confession but what the actual evidence will refute what he said and the glaring inconsistencies.

It will soon be a month and the DA is still going forward unless the defense attorney decides to accept the plea offer for his client which he says he is contemplating.

Imo, the time line will not add up to him having 30 minutes time in the home to be alone with his dad's body.

imoo

[steffaroob4]

Nor does the bullet hole in the screen door.

I can't get past that either.

[GentleBreeze]

I can't get past that either.


Why? The officers said it was shot right at the metal screen door right about where Tim Romans head was positioned and in his opinion it was a shot where he missed when aiming for the head. They said the shot went into the door at the bottom inside frame from the outside.

Since they did not remove Tim's knit cap until autopsy he may have had a bullet go in and travel out his skull and go through the door.



imoo

[emdragon]

But it isn't that uncommon that a suspect will tell some half truths in their statement and not fully disclose other things.

imoo

And a confession with elements of the crime that are wrong is a classic sign of false confession.

[steffaroob4]

Why? The officers said it was shot right at the metal screen door right about where Tim Romans head was positioned and in his opinion it was a shot where he missed when aiming for the head. They said the shot went into the door at the bottom inside frame from the outside.

Since they did not remove Tim's knit cap until autopsy he may have had a bullet go in and travel out his skull and go through the door.



imoo

Why would he walk around to be behind the door to shoot him in the head? Remember there was only one hole in screen, how many times was he shot in the head?

In the interview he only admits to shooting Tim, while Tim was on the ground, why?

[steffaroob4]

I wonder if they found anything on the tops of his shoes, IF he did the head shots so close to the body, I would think his shoes would have evidence on the top of them, his pants, too.

[GentleBreeze]

Why would he walk around to be behind the door to shoot in in the head? Remember there was only one hole in screen, how many times was he shot in the head?

In the interview he only admits to shooting Tim, while Tim was on the ground, why?

He would come out the door once Tim was disabled on the front porch. That is when he would pop the shots to his head. The door was pushed back open resting up against Tim's head. Someone posted that he may have gone back inside and that is when he fired the last fatal shots into his dad's head. I have not seen a link on that though but I do know they have asked for his footprint and I am sure they have his shoes already.

Unless he was standing behind the small ivy bushes growing there right at the door when firing and once he had him disabled on the porch that is when he walked up to where his head was resting which I believe will be right where the shot was seen, and shot him three times. Tim may have been moving more than his dad did. Some people have thicker skulls and it takes more shots.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

I wonder if they found anything on the tops of his shoes, IF he did the head shots so close to the body, I would think his shoes would have evidence on the top of them, his pants, too.

We do know at least one shot each was close up as brain matter was seen. He may have some blowback but when one uses a longer barreled gun they are further from their victim than if they had used a handgun.

But they have them and I am sure they are having them tested.

imoo

[readingperson]

Do me a favor, since your Dad is LE. Ask him if the boy should have been shaking from adrenalin. I have some experience with this. My cousin shot and killed his step father. I was there that evening and when they broght him into the house to be questioned he was shaking violently. I turned to my father and said, "He must have been scared to death." An officer who was standing beside us said, "No, they always shake like that afterwards it is from the adrenalin." He said that even he shook like that after a close call. My cousin shook like that for the whole 3 hours we were there.

So what I want to know is if that is true, then the boy we are all talking about should have been shaking with adrenalin. I don't see any mention of that. JMO.


I was thinking that the interview was 19 hours after the deaths. I haven't followed this case as well as the rest of you, so I may be all wrong on the timing of the interview.

[steffaroob4]

He would come out the door once Tim was disabled on the front porch. That is when he would pop the shots to his head. The door was pushed back open resting up against Tim's head. Someone posted that he may have gone back inside and that is when he fired the last fatal shots into his dad's head. I have not seen a link on that though but I do know they have asked for his footprint and I am sure they have his shoes already.

Unless he was standing behind the small ivy bushes growing there right at the door when firing and once he had him disabled on the porch that is when he walked up to where his head was resting which I believe will be right where the shot was seen, and shot him three times. Tim may have been moving more than his dad did. Some people have thicker skulls and it takes more shots.

imoo

The door opens towards the driveway, he would have to come out the door, make the head shots, walk around the body to get behind open screen door, then fire again. He couldn't make the screen shot, if Tim was on the ground, unless he was inbetween the door and the house.

[bkwits]

What he said did not make sense but that does not mean he didn't do this. We just don't know but LE and the DA thinks he did and even the defense attorney is waiting to see what the DA has.

You are right his story didn't mesh as being true at times or did it and he just didn't realize it? He said that when he discovered his dad that his face was already covered in blood. Then he said he fired two shots then to end his suffering. He got that from hunting game where head shots end the suffering of the animal. He sure didn't shoot him in the elbow and his back to end his suffering. He did the two head shots YET he says his father's face was already covered in blood when he found him, which could only come from already being shot in the head, when the boy first said he nudged him with the toe of his shoe.

It is not so much about his confession but what the actual evidence will refute what he said and the glaring inconsistencies.

It will soon be a month and the DA is still going forward unless the defense attorney decides to accept the plea offer for his client which he says he is contemplating.

Imo, the time line will not add up to him having 30 minutes time in the home to be alone with his dad's body.

imoo

I'm not claiming to know what really happened but if he did sit by his dad for a few minutes, it would feel like a much longer time. I know it would to me. Do you think he checked his watch (prob doesn't even have one)?

[GentleBreeze]

I was thinking that the interview was 19 hours after the deaths. I haven't followed this case as well as the rest of you, so I may be all wrong on the timing of the interview.


You are correct, readingperson.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

I'm not claiming to know what really happened but if he did sit by his dad for a few minutes, it would feel like a much longer time. I know it would to me. Do you think he checked his watch (prob doesn't even have one)?


No, that is why I wondered why he made it so specific. Sounds very strange for a child to do. They usually lose track of time and have no clue.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

The door opens towards the driveway, he would have to come out the door, make the head shots, walk around the body to get behind open screen door, then fire again. He couldn't make the screen shot, if Tim was on the ground, unless he was inbetween the door and the house.

Tim was on the porch right at the door. His head was resting right up against the door, which was opened about half way. The shot in the screen did not come from the inside out. It was from the outside down at an angle and went down into the bottom of the metal door frame from the outside to the inside of the door. The shooter was outside when the shot to the door was done. Police surmised at the hearing that it was a missed shot but that is before they did the autopsy. I think it is a possibility that the bullet traveled through Tim's skull and exited out and went through the door.

JMO

[bookie]

I was thinking that the interview was 19 hours after the deaths. I haven't followed this case as well as the rest of you, so I may be all wrong on the timing of the interview.



That was the second time he'd been interviewed. Matrese Avila interviewed him the night of the shooting per testimony of Off Debbie Neckel.

[emdragon]

http://www.writing.uci.edu/holderfield%20interrogation.pdf

Children, by virtue of their age and need for resources and guidance, are under the protection
of parents and in a legal setting, they are under the protection of the court (also known as parens
patriae). Children need special consideration, especially in complicated, stressful situations like
interrogation and confession; however, law enforcement officers interrogate children in the same
manner that adults are interrogated. Police officers can legally present false evidence, appeal to
God, and act like a friend or fake sympathy while interrogating people to trick them into confessing
a crime they may or may not have committed; police are not allowed to use brute force, prolonged
isolation, deprive prisoners of food or sleep, threaten harm or punishment, promise leniency, or
question suspects if they have not been read their Miranda Rights (Kassin, 1997). According to
Kassin who analyzed the interrogation manual actually used by law enforcement, law enforcement
officials are taught to believe a suspect is guilty until proven innocent, contrary to the law, and they
are willing to go to any lengths to elicit a confession because in criminal court a confession is the
most valuable prosecutorial evidence (1997). Even if a suspect recants his story the next day or the
next hour, the confession can be submitted to a jury unless officers have broken the law as outlined
above. The problem is that the false evidence and the enormous pressure put on many suspects may
cause: false memories (coerced- internalized confession), a confession to protect someone close like
a family member or relative (especially in the case of juveniles), and a coerced-compliant confession
in order to extricate themselves from the stressful situation hoping that once they are out of the
interrogation room they can clear up the mess (Kassin, 1997).

http://www.law.northwestern.edu/cfjc/falseconfessions.html

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-53728971.html

One Chicago, IL, police officer has obtained false confessions from three juveniles accused of murder, leading some children's advocates to try to change how children accused of crimes are interviewed. Young children are more likely to want to please their interrogators, especially if they are tired of the procedure, because of their nature. The police department ignored inconsistencies with the confessions when arresting the three children involved. Changes in interview techniques are not likely to prevent false confessions.

Steven Drizin, a professor at Northwestern University's legal clinic, had a nightmare case: an innocent boy who had confessed. In 1994 "A.M.," then 11 years old, ...
http://www.innocenceproject.org/understand/False-Confessions.php

Some false confessions can be explained by the mental state of the confessor.

* Confessions obtained from juveniles are often unreliable – children can be easy to manipulate and are not always fully aware of their situation. Children and adults both are often convinced that that they can "go home" as soon as they admit guilt.

There are more documented cases of children falsely confessing than even I thought there was. And these are just some of the reasons why.

[GentleBreeze]

My eye are just burning from reading so much.

Can you tell me Em, how many have confessed to murder and over what period of time? A decade or what? Recently?

Thanks.

[GentleBreeze]

That was the second time he'd been interviewed. Matrese Avila interviewed him the night of the shooting per testimony of Off Debbie Neckel.

That was at the scene wasn't it when he was standing there with his friend and his friend's dad?

imoo

[steffaroob4]

Tim was on the porch right at the door. His head was resting right up against the door, which was opened about half way. The shot in the screen did not come from the inside out. It was from the outside down at an angle and went down into the bottom of the metal door frame from the outside to the inside of the door. The shooter was outside when the shot to the door was done. Police surmised at the hearing that it was a missed shot but that is before they did the autopsy. I think it is a possibility that the bullet traveled through Tim's skull and exited out and went through the door.

JMO

Have you seen this video (http://www.truveo.com/Police-Release-Interview-Tape-Crime-Scene-Photos/id/993084792)? It has scenes from inside the house, at the end, I can see markers on the driveway, I guess that is the blood trail, do you see markers in another part of the yard.

[bookie]

That was at the scene wasn't it when he was standing there with his friend and his friend's dad?

imoo



Which is when adrenalin and shaking would be noticed and why I mentioned it.

[steffaroob4]

Hey, I never saw these before, (http://www.abc15.com/Photo.aspx?slideshow=a02b70a1-990e-43ba-8dd8-69e6acf5a4e0&photo=fb6aef35-39d0-4ac4-ac7a-3d26afffa8a9) make sure you look at them all, is that Tim's truck?

[GentleBreeze]

Have you seen this video (http://www.truveo.com/Police-Release-Interview-Tape-Crime-Scene-Photos/id/993084792)? It has scenes from inside the house, at the end, I can see markers on the driveway, I guess that is the blood trail, do you see markers in another part of the yard.


I looked at it but like I said my eyes aren't the best in the world tonight. It is so dark when this video was taken but I would think that is where the blood trail started. I believe they said it was about 24 feet from the porch. Not far at all and who knows after being shot he may have stepped several feet forward before the blood started to drip. He was fully clothed so it would hold the blood some. It does seem to be very close proximity to the house though.

From what I have read it wasn't a solid trail of blood but most likely drops here and there.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Which is when adrenalin and shaking would be noticed and why I mentioned it.

I am not sure that LE would pick up on that. Imo they would think if he was shaking it was due to the circumstances.


imoo

[steffaroob4]

I looked at it but like I said my eyes aren't the best in the world tonight. It is so dark when this video was taken but I would think that is where the blood trail started. I believe they said it was about 24 feet from the porch. Not far at all and who knows after being shot he may have stepped several feet forward before the blood started to drip. He was fully clothed so it would hold the blood some. It does seem to be very close proximity to the house though.

From what I have read it wasn't a solid trail of blood but most likely drops here and there.

imoo

Wow, those pictures I just posted sure give a better idea or driveway and truck location, did you see the casing in the door?

That hand gun looks to be in a different location, too.

[Crispy]

Hey, I never saw these before, (http://www.abc15.com/Photo.aspx?slideshow=a02b70a1-990e-43ba-8dd8-69e6acf5a4e0&photo=fb6aef35-39d0-4ac4-ac7a-3d26afffa8a9) make sure you look at them all, is that Tim's truck?

Good find. I hadn't seen the video or that set of pics before. I watched the video and it does look like there are two sets of evidence markers, but it's quite dark and I could be wrong. jmo

[emdragon]

My eye are just burning from reading so much.

Can you tell me Em, how many have confessed to murder and over what period of time? A decade or what? Recently?

Thanks.

That was the point in the links there are many, I can't name them all. Some are from 10 years ago or so and others more recent.

there is the Ryan Harris case from 1998 to Michale Crowe in 2001 just to name two.

[GentleBreeze]

Hey, I never saw these before, (http://www.abc15.com/Photo.aspx?slideshow=a02b70a1-990e-43ba-8dd8-69e6acf5a4e0&photo=fb6aef35-39d0-4ac4-ac7a-3d26afffa8a9) make sure you look at them all, is that Tim's truck?


The new truck sitting out in front of the home? I really don't know but did you notice the bullet casing right at the threshold of the door. It got caught in the groove right in the doorway.

imoo

[steffaroob4]

Good find. I hadn't seen the video or that set of pics before. I watched the video and it does look like there are two sets of evidence markers, but it's quite dark and I could be wrong. jmo

Yup, the gun was moved, the seat wasn't it's original spot.

gun one (http://www.azfamily.com/perl/common/slideshow/sspop.pl?recid=13142&nextimage=5)

gun two (http://www.abc15.com/Photo.aspx?slideshow=a02b70a1-990e-43ba-8dd8-69e6acf5a4e0&photo=6779280c-54b2-4cd8-bf1a-8c38751bea03)

[GentleBreeze]

That was the point in the links there are many, I can't name them all. Some are from 10 years ago or so and others more recent.

there is the Ryan Harris case from 1998 to Michale Crowe in 2001 just to name two.

Ok, thanks, I will try to read them tomorrow after I give my eyes a rest.

imo

[bookie]

Hey, I never saw these before, (http://www.abc15.com/Photo.aspx?slideshow=a02b70a1-990e-43ba-8dd8-69e6acf5a4e0&photo=fb6aef35-39d0-4ac4-ac7a-3d26afffa8a9) make sure you look at them all, is that Tim's truck?


Look at pic 4 then the video. There were markers on the concrete slab and in the yard.

[steffaroob4]

The new truck sitting out in front of the home? I really don't know but did you notice the bullet casing right at the threshold of the door. It got caught in the groove right in the doorway.

imoo

Yes, that has to be his truck, the door is still open, it also matches that late night pics I saw, I could see taillights, it must have been from his truck.

[GentleBreeze]

Yup, the gun was moved, the seat wasn't it's original spot.

gun one (http://www.azfamily.com/perl/common/slideshow/sspop.pl?recid=13142&nextimage=5)

gun two (http://www.abc15.com/Photo.aspx?slideshow=a02b70a1-990e-43ba-8dd8-69e6acf5a4e0&photo=6779280c-54b2-4cd8-bf1a-8c38751bea03)

Yes, I remember people got mad at me because I said they would photograph where the gun was originally found then take a picture of the handgun close up. No one believed me. lol

imoo

[steffaroob4]

Look at pic 4 then the video. There were markers on the concrete slab and in the yard.

That is what I thought, too. I am going to have to dig for some more pictures. Is anyone here from the area, that we can get a copy of these from the state?

[emdragon]

Ok, thanks, I will try to read them tomorrow after I give my eyes a rest.

imo

I didn't mean that to come off snappy- my eyes are burning tonight as well... I need to cave and start wearing the readers when I'm posting. lol

[steffaroob4]

Yes, I remember people got mad at me because I said they would photograph where the gun was originally found then take a picture of the handgun close up. No one believed me. lol

imoo

I remember, I thought you would like my find. I didn't argue with you about that.

[GentleBreeze]

Look at pic 4 then the video. There were markers on the concrete slab and in the yard.


They would place markers where they found blood droplets so the techs could get their samples and then where they found bullet casings. All of this was very close to that porch.

[GentleBreeze]

I remember, I thought you would like my find. I didn't argue with you about that.

Whew! :biggrin:

[GentleBreeze]

I didn't mean that to come off snappy- my eyes are burning tonight as well... I need to cave and start wearing the readers when I'm posting. lol


OT: I have been decorating my tree today. I have looked at so many ornaments until I am blind. Why I have to put so many on there and lights I have no clue and I am also trying to finish reading a book I started Saturday plus of course keeping up with the posts on the board. :cool: Not the best thing for the tired eyes. lol

But, again thanks, hopefully I will have time to read it in the morning.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Yes, that has to be his truck, the door is still open, it also matches that late night pics I saw, I could see taillights, it must have been from his truck.

Oh my that is chilling. The door still open.

When did it start getting dark there then. I know here it was dusk dark and dropping quickly around 5 ish or a little after.

imoo

[steffaroob4]

Hey, more pics (http://www.azfamily.com/perl/common/slideshow/sspop.pl?recid=12959&location=www.azfamily.com)

[GentleBreeze]

Hey, more pics (http://www.azfamily.com/perl/common/slideshow/sspop.pl?recid=12959&location=www.azfamily.com)


You are good, thanks.

The truck has to be Vincent's truck. It just makes more sense to me that is why the passenger side door is open because Tim was sitting on that side when they came home and Vincent went in and he stayed to most likely smoke and talk on his cell phone.

imo

[steffaroob4]

You are good, thanks.

The truck has to be Vincent's truck. It just makes more sense to me that is why the passenger side door is open because Tim was sitting on that side when they came home and Vincent went in and he stayed to most likely smoke and talk on his cell phone.

imo

Yes, if he did that it makes sense, sit there and have a smoke, I can see that. That gun could have in it's usual spot and never even gotten near, imo.

[steffaroob4]

snipped

Why is the door shot from the outside in?


weird, isn't it...
You are such a show off, I tried to get the pics to work, with no luck. I can't even right click right now, me and my mouse must need some sleep.

I wanted to post that casing in the doorway, that doesn't look like a .22 to me.

[steffaroob4]

Nah.

You don't need to click on the image icon. Just use the code.

[img ] ← (no space between the bracket & the 'g') then the link with 'gif' or 'jpg' at the end &
then [/img ] ← (again, no space there.) :)

ETA: Oops. I see now that you are unable to copy the links you want. Sorry about that. :(

Thanks, I am definately having computer issues, I can't even get my own links open.

I sure am going to do a big dig for more crime scene pics and video tomorrow, there is a lot I haven't seen.

[bookie]

weird, isn't it...
You are such a show off, I tried to get the pics to work, with no luck. I can't even right click right now, me and my mouse must need some sleep.

I wanted to post that casing in the doorway, that doesn't look like a .22 to me.



It does look bigger to me. It wouldn't surprise me if a second larger caliber gun was involved.

[muska]

The fact that Tim had his own gun in the car makes the boy as the shooter seem even less likely to me. Wouldn't he have been concerned that Tim would hear shots inside the house, grab his own gun and come running inside?

Does Tim's wife say she heard the boy calling or just that Tim said he was calling? I don't see how she could clearly hear any words from inside the house if neither she nor her husband heard any shots. I know the rifle is suppose to make kind of a muffled sound, but it seems it would be heard if the boy's voice could be heard.

[Crispy]

I have heard both...she heard the boy and also her husband said he had to go the boy was calling him. I would love to see her statement!! They haven't updated the court filing site in a while. I would also like to see the search warrant. I searched the court website and seen where they filed for a search warrant but I couldn't look at the filing itself.

[PensiveOne]

I was thinking that the interview was 19 hours after the deaths. I haven't followed this case as well as the rest of you, so I may be all wrong on the timing of the interview.

Yes, the interview was 19 hours later. But I am wondering about that night. The boy was there when the police arrived. The police said he was quiet and had a flat affect, I don't remember the exact words. JMO

[PensiveOne]

You are good, thanks.

The truck has to be Vincent's truck. It just makes more sense to me that is why the passenger side door is open because Tim was sitting on that side when they came home and Vincent went in and he stayed to most likely smoke and talk on his cell phone.

imo

I am not sure who the truck belonged to. In the interview/interrogation they asked the boy if that was where Tim usually parked.

[GentleBreeze]

I am not sure who the truck belonged to. In the interview/interrogation they asked the boy if that was where Tim usually parked.

That's true, Pensive.

Maybe Vincent drove the truck home because Tim was already talking on his cell phone coming home. I know sometimes when my hubby goes with his buddies, he will drive their vehicle and they will just ride over in the passenger seat. I am sure Tiffany knows how they did it each day and the neighbors probably saw them come in from work together all the time too.

Since VR and TRs worked at the same place they probably road together and back each day.

I noticed the handgun before it was taken out of its original location and it was in the correct position in the compartment, with the gun to the side and barrel back toward the back of the truck and not pointed toward the inside of the cab. The gun was laying there as if it was never touched until LE took it out to photograph it better.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

The fact that Tim had his own gun in the car makes the boy as the shooter seem even less likely to me. Wouldn't he have been concerned that Tim would hear shots inside the house, grab his own gun and come running inside?

Does Tim's wife say she heard the boy calling or just that Tim said he was calling? I don't see how she could clearly hear any words from inside the house if neither she nor her husband heard any shots. I know the rifle is suppose to make kind of a muffled sound, but it seems it would be heard if the boy's voice could be heard.

I think he and she could hear him clearly. He is sitting right there close to the home anyway. He probably had his truck door open because he was smoking. I read that she knew this boy's voice. She had been to the Romero home before when he was there and she may have heard him in the background at other times when she talked to her husband on the phone. But Tim lived with this boy during the week, he sure would know his voice.

The police officer explained that the shots fired inside the home at Vincent would be muffled and he wasn't shot on the first level but on the second section of the stairway by a hallway, irrc. We don't know if the door was closed when VR was shot. It was in the 50s that day so I highly doubt VR would have left the main door wide open with just the metal screen door which has perforations in it anyway that would let cold air come in.

I don't think Tim heard any shots at all or he would have retrieved his own weapon for protection. It was still in the truck compartment when LE found it.

imoo

[Kara]

The fact that Tim had his own gun in the car makes the boy as the shooter seem even less likely to me. Wouldn't he have been concerned that Tim would hear shots inside the house, grab his own gun and come running inside?

Does Tim's wife say she heard the boy calling or just that Tim said he was calling? I don't see how she could clearly hear any words from inside the house if neither she nor her husband heard any shots. I know the rifle is suppose to make kind of a muffled sound, but it seems it would be heard if the boy's voice could be heard.
Tim certainly should have heard gunshots if he was just outside the house when the shooting occurred. I was out hiking with my dog a couple of weeks back when some boys shot their .22 rifle and scared the crap out of me because I couldn't see where the shooter was at. It turned out they were about 50 yards away, just over a rise...but there was no mistaking that sound for anything other than a gun shot and too small a caliber to be someone hunting deer.

If that truck was only parked 20-30 feet away from the door, Tim certainly should have heard gun fire.

[Kara]

I noticed the handgun before it was taken out of its original location and it was in the correct position in the compartment, with the gun to the side and barrel back toward the back of the truck and not pointed toward the inside of the cab. The gun was laying there as if it was never touched until LE took it out to photograph it better.

imooNot attacking you but that just seems silly. (referring to the directionality of the stored weapon) Is it better to shoot someone who is behind the truck instead of the occupants of the vehicle? I would prefer that the owner of the gun put himself at risk instead of me if I just happen to be traveling behind him.

[GentleBreeze]

Not attacking you but that just seems silly. (referring to the directionality of the stored weapon) Is it better to shoot someone who is behind the truck instead of the occupants of the vehicle? I would prefer that the owner of the gun put himself at risk instead of me if I just happen to be traveling behind him.

I am sure it had the safety on when stored there.

The gun if it went off which is highly unlikely, if pointed outward would slow the velocity down by striking the thick metal of the truck. It would have to go through not only the metal right behind the seat of the truck cab itself but then go through the bed that begins right behind the cab and then strike the metal tailgate. By then the bullet would not have near the velocity as it would if shot into the inside of the truck.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Tim certainly should have heard gunshots if he was just outside the house when the shooting occurred. I was out hiking with my dog a couple of weeks back when some boys shot their .22 rifle and scared the crap out of me because I couldn't see where the shooter was at. It turned out they were about 50 yards away, just over a rise...but there was no mistaking that sound for anything other than a gun shot and too small a caliber to be someone hunting deer.

If that truck was only parked 20-30 feet away from the door, Tim certainly should have heard gun fire.

Gunshots inside enclosed structures are not the same as guns fired to the outside or on the outside where sound is allowed to travel.

The door could have been shut. The home was just built and most likely to code. Good insulation, etc. Many things inside of the home would buffer the sound. The sounds of the popping would be very muffled inside an enclosed home.

That is why neighbors in the past didn't even hear shotgun blast go off in a home, when they sat right next door from the home and a shotgun blast is many times louder than a .22.

It is obvious that he did not hear the shots coming from inside the home since he never retrieved his own weapon to try to protect himself imo.

JMO

[Justice_Dawg]

Do me a favor, since your Dad is LE. Ask him if the boy should have been shaking from adrenalin. I have some experience with this. My cousin shot and killed his step father. I was there that evening and when they broght him into the house to be questioned he was shaking violently. I turned to my father and said, "He must have been scared to death." An officer who was standing beside us said, "No, they always shake like that afterwards it is from the adrenalin." He said that even he shook like that after a close call. My cousin shook like that for the whole 3 hours we were there.

So what I want to know is if that is true, then the boy we are all talking about should have been shaking with adrenalin. I don't see any mention of that. JMO.
I read somewhere that when the stepmom got home the boy ran to her and was hugging her and crying.
I will go try to find the link. Anyone remember that? I don't think it said he was shaking.

[muska]

I just don't think you would miss gunshots but still clearly hear a child's voice from within the house. The boy apparently wasn't visible or Tim would have seen the gun so the child had to be inside the house. Gentle Breeze just suggested that it was cool out so the doors and windows were probably closed. Really, how could the wife, in particular, hear the boy's voice clearly from the other end of a phone. Sounds unlikely to me.

[GentleBreeze]

I just don't think you would miss gunshots but still clearly hear a child's voice from within the house. The boy apparently wasn't visible or Tim would have seen the gun so the child had to be inside the house. Gentle Breeze just suggested that it was cool out so the doors and windows were probably closed. Really, how could the wife, in particular, hear the boy's voice clearly from the other end of a phone. Sounds unlikely to me.

I think once his father had been killed is when he opened the door and yelled from behind the screen or he may have already been standing behind the ivy looking bush that was right up at the porch and door and Tim did not see exactly where he was calling from but knew it was right up at the door of the home.

Imo, the door was closed shut when his father was killed and then opened.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

I read somewhere that when the stepmom got home the boy ran to her and was hugging her and crying.
I will go try to find the link. Anyone remember that? I don't think it said he was shaking.

I believe that was when he was at the police station and she arrived. Before then he had no emotion about what had happened but when he saw her he ran up and hugged her and cried. I don't remember the part about him shaking but that may have been said. This was the day after the murders, shortly before they did the interview with him.

imoo

[Justice_Dawg]

I believe that was when he was at the police station and she arrived. Before then he had no emotion about what had happened but when he saw her he ran up and hugged her and cried. I don't remember the part about him shaking but that may have been said. This was the day after the murders, shortly before they did the interview with him.

imoo

It was when she got to the house. Pause the document at 1:11 sec into the video.
http://www.azfamily.com/video/geaz-index.html?nvid=308233

[bkwits]

I have been wondering about this...if the child shot the two men in "cold blood", why did he then run to the neighbors for help? It seems to me that he would either run away or wait for his stepmom to come home. IMO

[GentleBreeze]

It was when she got to the house. Pause the document at 1:11 sec into the video.
http://www.azfamily.com/video/geaz-index.html?nvid=308233

Thank you.

[GentleBreeze]

I have been wondering about this...if the child shot the two men in "cold blood", why did he then run to the neighbors for help? It seems to me that he would either run away or wait for his stepmom to come home. IMO

I don't think he ran for help. He knew they were already dead.

Why would he wait for his stepmom to come home? Wasn't she supposed to be about 4 hours late that day?

He had to let someone know about this then because they knew he would have arrived home from school.

[Justice_Dawg]

Thank you.

No problem, I really needed to know if he cried and hugged his stepmom at the scene. I needed to know he showed emotion.
It made me feel better.

[bkwits]

Gunshots inside enclosed structures are not the same as guns fired to the outside or on the outside where sound is allowed to travel.

The door could have been shut. The home was just built and most likely to code. Good insulation, etc. Many things inside of the home would buffer the sound. The sounds of the popping would be very muffled inside an enclosed home.

That is why neighbors in the past didn't even hear shotgun blast go off in a home, when they sat right next door from the home and a shotgun blast is many times louder than a .22.

It is obvious that he did not hear the shots coming from inside the home since he never retrieved his own weapon to try to protect himself imo.

JMO

Some years ago when I lived in a close-in suburb of Chicago, a man shot his estranged wife 7 times in a car that was traveling through our suburb. My husband and I heard the shots from the next street at the corner (about 200 feet away) We were upstairs in brick house with another large brick house blocking the shooting. I think the woman lived.

[BorderCollieMom]

Hey, more pics (http://www.azfamily.com/perl/common/slideshow/sspop.pl?recid=12959&location=www.azfamily.com)


Picture # 8 --- Who is the lady in the brown jacket/coat ?
and who's the man w/ the baseball cap, looks to be holding a drink or something and looking downwards ?

Picture # 10 --- has a couple of (dust) Orbs . (still freaky).

thanks for posting these pics !!!

[Justice_Dawg]

Picture # 8 --- Who is the lady in the brown jacket/coat ?
and who's the man w/ the baseball cap, looks to be holding a drink or something and looking downwards ?

Picture # 10 --- has a couple of (dust) Orbs . (still freaky).

thanks for posting these pics !!!

I so totally see the Orbs. (Dust my buttox) :chicken:

[steffaroob4]

I hate to ask, but in pic 9 on this page (http://www.kpho.com/slideshow/news/18019101/detail.html), is the body still there, because if that is the location of the body, it would be impossible to make that screen door shot.

[Justice_Dawg]

I hate to ask, but in pic 9 on this page (http://www.kpho.com/slideshow/news/18019101/detail.html), is the body still there, because if that is the location of the body, it would be impossible to make that screen door shot.

OMG it does look like the body is laying there!
Impossible meaning what?

[steffaroob4]

OMG it does look like the body is laying there!
Impossible meaning what?

How could anyone get behind the open screen door to fire a shot, I just don't see it? That hole in the screen door is drinving me crazy. So is the video showing crime scene markers on the side slab and another set leading to the truck.

[muska]

I had not seen these pictures. Is there any explanation for all that money being in the house? Where was it found?

[Justice_Dawg]

How could anyone get behind the open screen door to fire a shot, I just don't see it? That hole in the screen door is drinving me crazy. So is the video showing crime scene markers on the side slab and another set leading to the truck.
2 perps? Remember one different casing in door jam.

Crime scene markers on the side slab could be perp 1 casings?

Other set of Crime scene markers leading FROM the truck, blood.

:shrug:

[steffaroob4]

2 perps? Remember one different casing in door jam.

Crime scene markers on the side slab could be perp 1 casings?

Other set of Crime scene markers leading FROM the truck, blood.

:shrug:

I just don't know, I wish we could get a look at some ballistic reports.

I have no idea why the money was like that, maybe just as inventory from someone's wallet.

[Justice_Dawg]

I just don't know, I wish we could get a look at some ballistic reports.

I have no idea why the money was like that, maybe just as inventory from someone's wallet.

They hint at it in the transcripts when they talk about the different casings. Then decide not to disclose it in court.

[Kara]

Gunshots inside enclosed structures are not the same as guns fired to the outside or on the outside where sound is allowed to travel.

The door could have been shut. The home was just built and most likely to code. Good insulation, etc. Many things inside of the home would buffer the sound. The sounds of the popping would be very muffled inside an enclosed home.

That is why neighbors in the past didn't even hear shotgun blast go off in a home, when they sat right next door from the home and a shotgun blast is many times louder than a .22.

It is obvious that he did not hear the shots coming from inside the home since he never retrieved his own weapon to try to protect himself imo.

JMOI dunno...if I'm inside the house with the tv on and all the appliances and electronics creating that background hum, I can still hear somebody shooting a .22 in the field that lies a couple of hundred yards away.

Would being outside instead of inside make that much difference in the noise cancelling effect of the house?

[bkwits]

2 perps? Remember one different casing in door jam.

Crime scene markers on the side slab could be perp 1 casings?

Other set of Crime scene markers leading FROM the truck, blood.

:shrug:


Looking at the CS photos with people standing outside, it seems like an adult could stand behind those plantings and not be noticed. IOW, ambush Tim from the porch.

Another thing that I'm wondering about, were the photos of the inside of the house taken after the search warrent? That would account for a lot of the mess. IMO

[JD1974]

They hint at it in the transcripts when they talk about the different casings. Then decide not to disclose it in court.


This case just bothers me so badly. I am against charging children as adults, I am one of those weird people who do not believe smoking, drinking, having sex is a privledge you have to earn, I believe those things are based solely on age. If our kids cannot be trusted to have a drink or smoke because they are not biologically equipped to make that decision how can we say they are equipped to form adult thoughts in other areas? I know of no test you take that says you are old enough to do certain things, even 18 year olds who have the mentality of a 10 year old are allowed to vote, it is all based on age.

What I hate even more is when they put a gag order on, all that really means is we cannot see all the information, only what they "leak" which is never the important answers. I really want to see ballistics reports, I want to know if there was more than one gun involved.

I cannot totally put myself in the position of the victims in this case but I have to say if I knew an 8 year old child was shooting at me I would think I would rush him and get the gun...these men most likely knew how long it took this child to reload that gun, soon as they heard a shot I would be off and running to either a) like I said rush the kid and get the gun from him or b) go to the truck and get the gun that was in there! That really bugs me, there is a gun in the truck, we know Tim had to leave the truck. Now if the little boy called him and said something happened to his dad, why in gods name didn't Tim go for the gun that was close to him after the first shot???

[bkwits]

It is obvious that he did not hear the shots coming from inside the home since he never retrieved his own weapon to try to protect himself imo.

JMO
snipped for relevance

Do we positively know that this is Tim's weapon?

[muska]

I don't think he ran for help. He knew they were already dead.

Why would he wait for his stepmom to come home? Wasn't she supposed to be about 4 hours late that day?

He had to let someone know about this then because they knew he would have arrived home from school.

Where did it say the step-mom would not be home for four hours?

I thought the boy said his step-mom got home around 5 that day, that's why he didn't go home, because she wouldn't be home until 5 and she wouldn't know he hadn't come straight home. He said she didn't get home until 5 two days a week, the other days it seemed she was there after school. He didn't seem to like the idea of going home and being there himself. In the interview, I thought he said she was grocery shopping.

[Crispy]

I've never read anywhere that says she would be 4 hours late. The boy said that she didn't get off until 5. I've heard two different times that the father and Tim get off/home from work. Someone said he would be home at 4:30, but in the transcripts from the hearing it said he would have got home around 5. We have no definitive time line for any of it.

[Justice_Dawg]

Some years ago when I lived in a close-in suburb of Chicago, a man shot his estranged wife 7 times in a car that was traveling through our suburb. My husband and I heard the shots from the next street at the corner (about 200 feet away) We were upstairs in brick house with another large brick house blocking the shooting. I think the woman lived.

The Romero home looks to be made of T-111 siding.

[bkwits]

The Romero home looks to be made of T-111 siding.

I don't know what that is, but since I live in the frozen north, our houses are usually well-built and thickly insulated. BTW, both my husband and I had some hearing impairment at the time. Remember, the woman was shot IN THE CAR.

[bkwits]

I've never read anywhere that says she would be 4 hours late. The boy said that she didn't get off until 5. I've heard two different times that the father and Tim get off/home from work. Someone said he would be home at 4:30, but in the transcripts from the hearing it said he would have got home around 5. We have no definitive time line for any of it.

She was due home around 5 pm. IIRC.

[Kara]

<snipped>

Another thing that I'm wondering about, were the photos of the inside of the house taken after the search warrent? That would account for a lot of the mess. IMO

Good point. The house doesn't actually look dirty...just exceptionally messy and cluttered, which could be the result of a search.

[bkwits]

Good point. The house doesn't actually look dirty...just exceptionally messy and cluttered, which could be the result of a search.

Yes, I thought the clothes in the bathroom looked like they may have been dumped from a hamper.

[BorderCollieMom]

I so totally see the Orbs. (Dust my buttox) :chicken:


lol..............

[BorderCollieMom]

I hate to ask, but in pic 9 on this page (http://www.kpho.com/slideshow/news/18019101/detail.html), is the body still there, because if that is the location of the body, it would be impossible to make that screen door shot.

I dont see anything that looks like a body....but theres some more orbs.
Is it possibly foggy in those pics ? Looks wierd....probably fog.

[muska]

Good point. The house doesn't actually look dirty...just exceptionally messy and cluttered, which could be the result of a search.

Any chance it was ransacked? Maybe someone was looking for the money or something else. I guess that's not too likely as the family would have noticed, unless they didn't get in until after whatever search took place.

[Crispy]

New filing up

Request for the appointment of a therapist for the child

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/

ETA link for actual filing http://tinyurl.com/56k66c

[bkwits]

New filing up

Request for the appointment of a therapist for the child

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/

ETA link for actual filing http://tinyurl.com/56k66c

Wow, two great minds. I was just getting ready to post that. The therapist will work for the defense attorney and is not required to divulge anything that the child tells her, even if he was abused (if I read that correctly).

[Details]

Any chance it was ransacked? Maybe someone was looking for the money or something else. I guess that's not too likely as the family would have noticed, unless they didn't get in until after whatever search took place.With the gag order, and with Tim's wife believing it's the boy, we might not know at all if the house was ransacked, or if that was what the police did. I doubt the family was allowed inside before the police got there.

But - I'd expect photos to be taken before searchers were allowed to shred the place - so that would suggest any disorder was either a messy house, or the killers ransacking the place, looking for something.

[bkwits]

Do we know for sure that the shells came from a rifle? Couldn't they have come from a handgun?

[JD1974]

Good point. The house doesn't actually look dirty...just exceptionally messy and cluttered, which could be the result of a search.


Don't you think the crime scene photos would be taken before an in-depth search, to me it looks like piles of dirty laundry. The point of crime scene photos are to show what the house looked like at the time of the crime, not after LE has trampled through and threw things all over. Honestly I just think they were messy house keepers.

[JD1974]

I dont see anything that looks like a body....but theres some more orbs.
Is it possibly foggy in those pics ? Looks wierd....probably fog.



I see what looks like a body by the tree right in front of the house, kind of looks as if it isn't exactly doubled over but bent over slightly.

[Justice_Dawg]

Wow, two great minds. I was just getting ready to post that. The therapist will work for the defense attorney and is not required to divulge anything that the child tells her, even if he was abused (if I read that correctly).OMG, poor baby can't even talk to his mom !! :mad:

It goes on to say CPS has already been provided with information of abuse.

[Justice_Dawg]

With the gag order, and with Tim's wife believing it's the boy, we might not know at all if the house was ransacked, or if that was what the police did. I doubt the family was allowed inside before the police got there.

But - I'd expect photos to be taken before searchers were allowed to shred the place - so that would suggest any disorder was either a messy house, or the killers ransacking the place, looking for something.
The boy said the house was clean, except for his bedroom.
It does look ransacked. Searches by LE usually don't look like that IMO.

[LindaNJ1216]

OMG, poor baby can't even talk to his mom !! :mad:

It goes on to say CPS has already been provided with information of abuse.

That would be the ridiculous lie of keeping a tally of his 1000 spankings

imo

[Justice_Dawg]

That would be the ridiculous lie of keeping a tally of his 1000 spankings

imo

Like he didn't get swatted. That is ridiculous IMO. He even told his mother he was getting BEATEN ! Call it what you will Swats are BEATINGS! Even the Grandparents said they were TOO HARD ON THE BOY!!

[Justice_Dawg]

Don't you think the crime scene photos would be taken before an in-depth search, to me it looks like piles of dirty laundry. The point of crime scene photos are to show what the house looked like at the time of the crime, not after LE has trampled through and threw things all over. Honestly I just think they were messy house keepers.

Yes, photos first.

JMO

[Justice_Dawg]

I see what looks like a body by the tree right in front of the house, kind of looks as if it isn't exactly doubled over but bent over slightly.

I see him by the left tree, in front of the door. Laying flat. Looks like he is wearing grey.

:shrug:

[Justice_Dawg]

Do we know for sure that the shells came from a rifle? Couldn't they have come from a handgun?

No we don't and yes they could have.
I posted before that the handgun in the truck could have had a.22 conversion kit. They are available for that gun.
In fact, a lot of handguns can be converted.

IMO

[bkwits]

That would be the ridiculous lie of keeping a tally of his 1000 spankings

imo

How do we know that the child said that? Some anonymous source?

[Justice_Dawg]

How do we know that the child said that? Some anonymous source?

It was good enough to get another Search Warrant issued. :rolleyes:

[bkwits]

It was good enough to get another Search Warrant issued. :rolleyes:

I have no doubt that the dad and stepmom used corporal punishment on the child. I do have doubts about the child keeping a written journal or tally of the spankings. IMO, that was a red herring by the pros. to give motive. A weak one at that.

[Justice_Dawg]

I have no doubt that the dad and stepmom used corporal punishment on the child. I do have doubts about the child keeping a written journal or tally of the spankings. IMO, that was a red herring by the pros. to give motive. A weak one at that.

ITA with that! :)

[Details]

I have no doubt that the dad and stepmom used corporal punishment on the child. I do have doubts about the child keeping a written journal or tally of the spankings. IMO, that was a red herring by the pros. to give motive. A weak one at that.They claimed he told CPS that, as a justification for a search warrent. When they executed the warrent, they didn't find the tally. I don't believe it either.

[steffaroob4]

They claimed he told CPS that, as a justification for a search warrent. When they executed the warrent, they didn't find the tally. I don't believe it either.

I wonder if he parrots things people say, that sounds like something and older child would say, wish we knew what age kids he ran around with.
What I don't get is how an 8 year old knows what juvie is... My kids would not have known what juvie was at that age, let alone think they would be sent there.

[Justice_Dawg]

I wonder if he parrots things people say, that sounds like something and older child would say, wish we knew what age kids he ran around with.
What I don't get is how an 8 year old knows what juvie is... My kids would not have known what juvie was at that age, let alone think they would be sent there.
Maybe his parents would threaten him telling him they would send him to "juvie" for being bad.
Verbal Abuse.
I don't doubt it.

MOO

[Details]

What I don't get is how an 8 year old knows what juvie is... My kids would not have known what juvie was at that age, let alone think they would be sent there.I see 3 easy ways he knows what Juvie is - one - parents - maybe frustrated at some point in time, maybe explaining to him how the world works - either one. Two - friends and classmates - maybe one of them has a brother or sister, maybe spreading kids rumors about how if you don't wait in line, the police come and throw you in juvie, etc. Third - the police themselves, maybe before the recording, could well be using juvie to scare him, 'bad boys who don't help the police end up in juvie' type of thing.

Could have been his father answering his question when he sees some kid stealing, or a bad kid on the news, about what happens. You never know what parts of what you say kids will hold on to, and what parts they'll ignore.

[muska]

How do we know that the child said that? Some anonymous source?

Didn't the family have access to the house before the search for this tally sheet? The boy's lawyer wanted access to the crime scene in the first few days but I remember that the house had already been returned to the owner. The step-mom could have looked through his room and thrown away anything that she thought looked bad. I'm not saying this happened but it could have. If the child said anything about 1000 spankings or tallies, it probably just reflects how he felt. Kids say "like a thousand times" just to mean a lot, and it sounds like he was being spanked a lot.

[Justice_Dawg]

Hi, my friends! :seeya: Just breezing through to say hello and find out what's the buzz on this case. I heard through the grapevine new docs were posted by the defense asking for a special therapist for the boy to confide in. It's about time! I can't imagine this boy having to internalize and not be able to freely talk to his mother or anyone else in that place. For an 8 year old boy to be gagged must be torture for this kid.

I am still praying for this boy daily and hope that he is exonnerated (as I still feel he is innocent of these crimes) and freed to the custody of his mother and pray that she is going to treat him with love, care and tenderness.


:rose: for the boy:biggrin:
A Lot of us missed you!!!!

[bkwits]

Hi, my friends! :seeya: Just breezing through to say hello and find out what's the buzz on this case. I heard through the grapevine new docs were posted by the defense asking for a special therapist for the boy to confide in. It's about time! I can't imagine this boy having to internalize and not be able to freely talk to his mother or anyone else in that place. For an 8 year old boy to be gagged must be torture for this kid.

I am still praying for this boy daily and hope that he is exonnerated (as I still feel he is innocent of these crimes) and freed to the custody of his mother and pray that she is going to treat him with love, care and tenderness.


:rose: for the boy
:seeya:

Welcome back. We are having a snowstorm here in Northern IL, so I got gas, groceries and settled in to discuss the case.

[LindaNJ1216]

I have no doubt that the dad and stepmom used corporal punishment on the child. I do have doubts about the child keeping a written journal or tally of the spankings. IMO, that was a red herring by the pros. to give motive. A weak one at that.

The prosecution doesn't need to prove a motive. If anything a tally sheet would have helped the defense.

[bkwits]

Didn't the family have access to the house before the search for this tally sheet? The boy's lawyer wanted access to the crime scene in the first few days but I remember that the house had already been returned to the owner. The step-mom could have looked through his room and thrown away anything that she thought looked bad. I'm not saying this happened but it could have. If the child said anything about 1000 spankings or tallies, it probably just reflects how he felt. Kids say "like a thousand times" just to mean a lot, and it sounds like he was being spanked a lot.

IA that he could have said something like that using thousand to mean a lot. "Like I was spanked a thousand times." I just don't see an 8 year old keeping a "journal" or a tally and saying that was his "limit." I can't think of the average 8 y.o. using the term "that's my limit." IMO

[LindaNJ1216]

Maybe his parents would threaten him telling him they would send him to "juvie" for being bad.
Verbal Abuse.
I don't doubt it.

MOO

Wow that's quite a leap based on nothing

[bkwits]

[QUOTE=LindaNJ1216;12489457]The prosecution doesn't need to prove a motive. If anything a tally sheet would have helped the defense.[/QUOTE:(]


:confused:

How so?

[LindaNJ1216]

IA that he could have said something like that using thousand to mean a lot. "Like I was spanked a thousand times." I just don't see an 8 year old keeping a "journal" or a tally and saying that was his "limit." I can't think of the average 8 y.o. using the term "that's my limit." IMO

I think we all can agree, he's not average

[steffaroob4]

Wow that's quite a leap based on nothing

It's an opinion, to help me understand something I was wondering about.

[LindaNJ1216]

[QUOTE=LindaNJ1216;12489457]The prosecution doesn't need to prove a motive. If anything a tally sheet would have helped the defense.[/QUOTE:(]


:confused:

How so?

well let me see....he was spanked the night before and it was his one thousandth beating ( that's what the defense would call it) His dad returned home and had a belt in his hand on the stairs. The kid just couldn't take the abuse anymore.

[steffaroob4]

IA that he could have said something like that using thousand to mean a lot. "Like I was spanked a thousand times." I just don't see an 8 year old keeping a "journal" or a tally and saying that was his "limit." I can't think of the average 8 y.o. using the term "that's my limit." IMO

I think he is parroting something an adult or older teen said, I know I have certain phrases I use with my kids, when I yell at them. I sure wish we had some more info on this case. I understand the gag order, but good grief, why would they relase those tapes, it doesn't seem right to let that out there and nothing else,

[steffaroob4]

[QUOTE=bk wits;12489473]

well let me see....he was spanked the night before and it was his one thousandth beating ( that's what the defense would call it) His dad returned home and had a belt in his hand on the stairs. The kid just couldn't take the abuse anymore.

Do you think that was the father's belt??? Are we sure he was spanked the night before? Is there a statement from the step-mom, I have issues with anything said on those interview tapes.

[Justice_Dawg]

I think we all can agree, he's not average

I DO NOT agree. Please do not speak for me.

[LindaNJ1216]

[QUOTE=LindaNJ1216;12489500]

Do you think that was the father's belt??? Are we sure he was spanked the night before? Is there a statement from the step-mom, I have issues with anything said on those interview tapes.

I have no idea whose belt, i tend to think they were all rather sloppy housekeepers. I don't know if he was spanked the night before, the kids a liar. The only defense they have is the "abuse excuse" for the dad. But the other guy is gonna be hard for the defense to deal with. Imo the kid will take the plea.

[GentleBreeze]

I dunno...if I'm inside the house with the tv on and all the appliances and electronics creating that background hum, I can still hear somebody shooting a .22 in the field that lies a couple of hundred yards away.

Would being outside instead of inside make that much difference in the noise canceling effect of the house?

There are so many variables that can muffle sounds coming from inside a home. If you follow some of the cases here there are times the victims were found shot to death in their home with neighbors living right close by and no one hears anything. Others may. There is no concrete rule due to so many factors that can change whether they hear it or don't.

You may already be tuned to listen for that particular noise. I always notice outside gunshots because if I think they are close then I think someone is tresspassing on our land. I am very in tuned to hearing and knowing what those shots sound like plus our house stays rather quiet most of the time.

But inside an enclosed home the sound can be suppressed due to the ceilings, structure (two levels), insulation, wall thickness, carpet if it is thick, which this was, furniture and other things are absorbers of sounds. Imo, due to the newness of this home and the fact that Romero was killed on the second section of the stairway the sound was not heard outside.

I do believe most of the shots fired at TRs were heard and reported by the neighbors across the street. That is understandable as sound travels in the open air. They did not hear 10 shots so they did not hear the shots to Romero but to Tim imo.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Wow that's quite a leap based on nothing

Heck that seems to be the rave with some of these kids. They even tell each other that the other one is going to get sent to juvie.

imoo

[muska]

[QUOTE=LindaNJ1216;12489500]

Do you think that was the father's belt??? Are we sure he was spanked the night before? Is there a statement from the step-mom, I have issues with anything said on those interview tapes.

The biological mom confirmed tht the father had spanked him the night before.

It's interesting that during the interview, the boy said "they hit me." The police officer is the one who said, "oh so you got a spanking?" She shut him right down, made it sound like "oh a little spanking, no big deal." It seemed like she should have asked him more about exactly what happened. She was prying about everything else.

A lot of people use the word spanking when what they really do is hit or beat their kids. Just look at Nixmary Brown. Her step-father said he only spanked her and she ended up starved and tortured to death. IF the Romeros were using a belt on their son, I personally consider that child abuse. I pretty much think spanking is a lazy way to discipline a child and hitting one with anything more than a hand is abuse.

[GentleBreeze]

I hate to ask, but in pic 9 on this page (http://www.kpho.com/slideshow/news/18019101/detail.html), is the body still there, because if that is the location of the body, it would be impossible to make that screen door shot.

You mean laying on the left side with his head toward the door? It would match perfectly imo. The door opens back toward where his head and body is. They said that the door was half open when they arrived and up against his head.

If the door was half open like it was found then yes, imo the shot made to the outside of the metal security screen door would be consistent with a shot being fired from the porch as he laid there probably close to the position he died in.

I have no doubt that crime scene photos were taken showing the door resting against his head showing the shot entering the screen door from the outside. Imo, it will match where he was and where there was a bullet hole in the door.



imoo

[bkwits]

[QUOTE=bk wits;12489473]

well let me see....he was spanked the night before and it was his one thousandth beating ( that's what the defense would call it) His dad returned home and had a belt in his hand on the stairs. The kid just couldn't take the abuse anymore.\


IMO, you are making a few leaps here. Leaping to say the defense would admit to the child shooting the two men.

Imaginative leap that the defense would say it was his 1,000th (I guess it doesn't matter what the non-existent tally showed).


Pros. always tries to show motive. In this case, the pros was looking pretty bad for being so Draconian, so it released the tape to show the public the child did it. They still looked bad for bullying, leading, coercing a confession, denying the child his rights, so they come up with the "motive." IMO

[GentleBreeze]

[QUOTE=steffaroob4;12489523]

The biological mom confirmed that the father had spanked him the night before.

It's interesting that during the interview, the boy said "they hit me." The police officer is the one who said, "oh so you got a spanking?" She shut him right down, made it sound like "oh a little spanking, no big deal." It seemed like she should have asked him more about exactly what happened. She was prying about everything else.

A lot of people use the word spanking when what they really do is hit or beat their kids. Just look at Nixmary Brown. Her step-father said he only spanked her and she ended up starved and tortured to death. IF the Romeros were using a belt on their son, I personally consider that child abuse. I pretty much think spanking is a lazy way to discipline a child and hitting one with anything more than a hand is abuse.

But as in any case it isn't our opinions about things that count. In AZ it is not against the law to spank their children. Corporal punishment also is not against the law in AZ.

I highly doubt he was "beat" with his five swats. They found out about the spankings quickly and if he had any bruises the step mom would have been arrested and she hasn't been. So imo, he had no bruises or even scars as that would have been photographed quickly and the DA nor the Defense would have been saying 5 days later after the arrest that they had uncovered no abuse.

IMO

[GentleBreeze]

[QUOTE=LindaNJ1216;12489500]\


IMO, you are making a few leaps here. Leaping to say the defense would admit to the child shooting the two men.

Imaginative leap that the defense would say it was his 1,000th (I guess it doesn't matter what the non-existent tally showed).


Pros. always tries to show motive. In this case, the pros was looking pretty bad for being so Draconian, so it released the tape to show the public the child did it. They still looked bad for bullying, leading, coercing a confession, denying the child his rights, so they come up with the "motive." IMO


The boy told them a motive. He said he was mad with his father. Anger can be a very dangerous thing.

imoo

[bkwits]

The boy told them a motive. He said he was mad with his father. Anger can be a very dangerous thing.

imoo


Then what was the big deal about the tally sheet (that doesn't seem to exist) and the 1,000 spankings?

Was it damage control for the Pros.?

[muska]

[QUOTE=muska;12489616]

But as in any case it isn't our opinions about things that count. In AZ it is not against the law to spank their children. Corporal punishment also is not against the law in AZ.

I highly doubt he was "beat" with his five swats. They found out about the spankings quickly and if he had any bruises the step mom would have been arrested and she hasn't been. So imo, he had no bruises or even scars as that would have been photographed quickly and the DA nor the Defense would have been saying 5 days later after the arrest that they had uncovered no abuse.

IMO

Just because something is legal doesn't mean it's morally right. If they were hitting him a lot, it was abuse.

[bkwits]

Some of my posts are messed up with quoting OPs as myself or vice-versa.

I will be more careful in editing them to make sure they are correct.


hammer

[steffaroob4]

Some of my posts are messed up with quoting OPs as myself or vice-versa.

I will be more careful in editing them to make sure they are correct.


hammer

I think it is a glitch, it is happening to all of our posts, we all are being misquoted, lol:no:

well that one worked

[bkwits]

I think it is a glitch, it is happening to all of our posts, we all are being misquoted, lol:no:

well that one worked

Thanks, I feel better now.

:)

[JD1974]

That would be the ridiculous lie of keeping a tally of his 1000 spankings


imo

Maybe you read it wrong, to me it read that he said 1,000 WOULD BE his limit, not that he had 1,000 swats and had reached the limit...

[JD1974]

I see him by the left tree, in front of the door. Laying flat. Looks like he is wearing grey.

:shrug:



Yes to the left of the tree, I should of stated the tree directly in front of the door instead of right in front of the door. I also agree it looks like the person lying there is wearing some sort of gray shirt. I can see the person/body as clear as day...if I knew how to post the picture I would put a circle around what I am seeing and post it, but I am not sure how to post it once I draw the circle lol

[JD1974]

No we don't and yes they could have.
I posted before that the handgun in the truck could have had a.22 conversion kit. They are available for that gun.
In fact, a lot of handguns can be converted.

IMO

Sorry to go o/t for a moment but have you heard anything new about the bathtub death, I know the trial was moved until march, but is there any word circulating about it?

[Details]

A motive - even abuse - is always good for the prosecution. Just the boy saying in that pressured confession that he was mad at his dad is not even close to enough. First 8 year old in 18 years to kill his parent, and merely being mad as the motive? If that was enough, there wouldn't be a parent of an 8 year old living! If your kid doesn't get mad at you at 8 years old, you probably aren't doing your job. They want to play, not study, they want candy rather than dinner, they want to buy that toy at the checkout and you say no.

They claimed he said a tally sheet existed, they checked - no such thing. The prosecution is the one who was looking for it. So they obviously thought it would help their case.

[Kara]

I think it is a glitch, it is happening to all of our posts, we all are being misquoted, lol:no:

well that one worked

I don't think it's a glitch...you just have to be certain that you don't remove the opening or closing tags when quoting or snipping a portion of a quote.

[JD1974]

A motive - even abuse - is always good for the prosecution. Just the boy saying in that pressured confession that he was mad at his dad is not even close to enough. First 8 year old in 18 years to kill his parent, and merely being mad as the motive? If that was enough, there wouldn't be a parent of an 8 year old living! If your kid doesn't get mad at you at 8 years old, you probably aren't doing your job. They want to play, not study, they want candy rather than dinner, they want to buy that toy at the checkout and you say no.

They claimed he said a tally sheet existed, they checked - no such thing. The prosecution is the one who was looking for it. So they obviously thought it would help their case.


My kids hate me all the time, exactly for those reasons. Everytime they say mom I hate you, I tell them well I must be doing my job as being mom correctly then, because if I wasn't you would never have anything to complain about. About the juvie thing, my neice told my son that if he didn't wear his seat belt he would go to kiddie jail, juvie just seems like such a grown up word for such a young child. This case is just totally baffling to me. I will say one thing though, if it comes out that this little boy didn't do this crime or that he had asked for help from teachers or other adults and was ignored, I think he should own 3/4 of that county.

[bkwits]

Maybe you read it wrong, to me it read that he said 1,000 WOULD BE his limit, not that he had 1,000 swats and had reached the limit...

That's the way I read it too. Who knows what he actually said. I think maybe someone is interpreting or paraphrasing his words. Oh heck, maybe they are just plain making it up as they go along.

[Justice_Dawg]

Sorry to go o/t for a moment but have you heard anything new about the bathtub death, I know the trial was moved until march, but is there any word circulating about it?
I still just hear about Ryan's innocence. Sarah's family still supports him.
I am just glad he is out on bond. It wolud be worse for everyone if he was in prison for the holidays. Trial starts March 23rd, If the DA ever come out of shock. :biggrin:

[Justice_Dawg]

But as in any case it isn't our opinions about things that count. In AZ it is not against the law to spank their children. Corporal punishment also is not against the law in AZ.

I highly doubt he was "beat" with his five swats. They found out about the spankings quickly and if he had any bruises the step mom would have been arrested and she hasn't been. So imo, he had no bruises or even scars as that would have been photographed quickly and the DA nor the Defense would have been saying 5 days later after the arrest that they had uncovered no abuse.

IMOYou state:
In AZ it is not against the law to spank children.
and
Corporal punishment is also not against the law in AZ.
-------------
Then may I ask why, if he had any bruises would the stepmom have been arrested???

[JD1974]

I still just hear about Ryan's innocence. Sarah's family still supports him.
I am just glad he is out on bond. It wolud be worse for everyone if he was in prison for the holidays. Trial starts March 23rd, If the DA ever come out of shock. :biggrin:

I agree that the pros Hutzel isn't it, had a rude awakening...hope the jury does the right thing. Actually I wish the judge would do the right thing before it even got to a jury! I feel bad for Ryan, look what is being done to him asw an adult, I really shudder to think of what this kid is going through.

[Justice_Dawg]

I'm just catching up on reading and what I am reading is very disturbing. I will pop back in a few days or as soon as something new comes about in this case.

My continued prayers for the boy's complete exoneration and release.


See ya all real soon!







Babies don't belong in Jail.
It is very disturbing. The sad part is, a wrongful conviction can happen to anyone. Some people just don't realise it.

I too await the boy's complete exoneration and release.
See you soon my friend! :seeya:

[Justice_Dawg]

I agree that the pros Hutzel isn't it, had a rude awakening...hope the jury does the right thing. Actually I wish the judge would do the right thing before it even got to a jury! I feel bad for Ryan, look what is being done to him asw an adult, I really shudder to think of what this kid is going through.

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20081112/NEWS0107/311110039
Watch the video on the right. LMAO!!!!!

Ryan's attorney has his back. Thank God!

[LindaNJ1216]

You state:
In AZ it is not against the law to spank children.
and
Corporal punishment is also not against the law in AZ.
-------------
Then may I ask why, if he had any bruises would the stepmom have been arrested???

There's a difference between a spanking and a beating. Beatings leave bruises and are illegal.

[bkwits]

I was very disturbed when I read the newest paper on the links page where the attorney is asking for a special psychologist and mentions "relaxation techniques and stress management". I can only envision this little boy going crazy in this isolation unit with nobody to talk to and nobody to hold him when he needs to be held. He is still a baby and for an adult, isolation would make a person go berserk I can just imagine and fear for this boy what he is going through. And I also fear what effect this will have on him as he grows up.

Hi Jan, I thought I read that he has a teacher come there. At least that is something.

[Justice_Dawg]

There's a difference between a spanking and a beating. Beatings leave bruises and are illegal.
The boy has only known this stepmom for about 2 years.

Were the beatings with the childs pants on or off?
Was a belt used?

[Crispy]

Did the boy have GSR on his hands?
Someone mentioned recoil (I'm unfamiliar w/guns; shot off several in my life - in safe situations, of course- even as an adult, the recoil from .357 Magnum and some kind of rifle just about knocked my big butt down! Sorry if I sound ignorant or if these are "old" questions, TIA!!

They never tested his hands for GSR and we don't have the results from the testing on his clothes. Also, I'm told since this 22 was small and a youth model that the kick would not be that bad. jmo

[LindaNJ1216]

The boy has only known this stepmom for about 2 years.

Were the beatings with the child's pants on or off?
Was a belt used?

I don't think his step mother should have ever put her hands on him. IMO That was his dad's job.

I have no idea if his pants were on or off or if a belt was used.:shrug:


This morning I went back and watched and listened to the entire police interview of the boy. I've been reading so many posts saying the boy was coerced and wanted to view it again to see if my mind could be changed.

I see him as relaxed, calm and only changed his story when the police said they would be able to find out the truth anyway. IMO They went out of their was to be nice to him and put him at ease.

I remember once when my son was 8 and finished his lunch in lightening speed ..or so he claimed. He swore up and down he had ate it. I told him he better not be lying and said I would find out as soon as I smelled the dogs breath. As I slowly walked toward the dog....he admitted feeding it to her so he could go back outside to play.

This boy lied much the same way...imo

[LindaNJ1216]

THANKS for info! I just cannot believe they never tested his hands; crazy! I thought that was SOP??

He wasn't a suspect until it was too late to do GSR test.

[Justice_Dawg]

THANKS for info! I just cannot believe they never tested his hands; crazy! I thought that was SOP??
It should have been SOP to test all family members hands and cloths for GSR.
As far as I know they took the boys and stepmoms cloths for testing.

JMO

[Justice_Dawg]

He wasn't a suspect until it was too late to do GSR test.
HUH?
:confused:

[bkwits]

I don't think his step mother should have ever put her hands on him. IMO That was his dad's job.

I have no idea if his pants were on or off or if a belt was used.:shrug:


This morning I went back and watched and listened to the entire police interview of the boy. I've been reading so many posts saying the boy was coerced and wanted to view it again to see if my mind could be changed.

I see him as relaxed, calm and only changed his story when the police said they would be able to find out the truth anyway. IMO They went out of their was to be nice to him and put him at ease.

I remember once when my son was 8 and finished his lunch in lightening speed ..or so he claimed. He swore up and down he had ate it. I told him he better not be lying and said I would find out as soon as I smelled the dogs breath. As I slowly walked toward the dog....he admitted feeding it to her so he could go back outside to play.

This boy lied much the same way...imo


Yes, you made a point. Your son admitted to what you wanted from him so he could go outside and play.

This accused child has not told one story that is consistent with the crime scene or even consistent. The two women police officers are leaning into him, leading him into what they wanted him to say. You can see him struggling to say what they want him to say.

IMO, this so-called "confession" points as much to innocence as guilt. Shame on St. Johns LE.

BTW, do you think your son really fed his lunch to the dog? Or did he just want to go out and play?

[Crispy]

It should have been SOP to test all family members hands and cloths for GSR.
As far as I know they took the boys and stepmoms cloths for testing.

JMO


I'm pretty sure that they told the boy they already had his stepmothers clothes and they didn't have his at the time of the interview. jmo

ETA: O/T Two confirmed cases of whooping cough at Lebanon elementary school!!

[bkwits]

He was supposed to have a counsellor to come in and talk to, remember the papers the defense attorney filed in the beginning for that? Whether or not that was approved I don't know. If he does not have a teacher at least, then this is a crime and that's child abuse because to deny a child the right to learn is just not right. But the way things are in Arizona, anything goes. There are no gun laws for children or gun safety laws in place, the law is whatever LE decides they want to do regardless of a person's rights and it's just the wild, wild west out there. I'm still losing sleep over this little boy. Whoever the poster was that said that if they want to be arresting babies they better figure out what to do with them, is so right!


The defense has proposed that a certain therapist be brought in to talk to the child. This therapist will work for the defense atty. and the child's conversations with her cannot be used against. She cannot testify against him.

Did you notice that the child's bio mother and stepmom are listed as state's witnesses (against the child)?

[bkwits]

How can they compell a mother to testify against her own little boy? :flamemad:

I believe that was in the def. atty's petition to have a therapist for the boy. He said the child canot talk freely to his mom because she is listed as a witness for the state. I did see her and Tiffany (stepmom) listed as witnesses for the pros.

[Justice_Dawg]

I don't think his step mother should have ever put her hands on him. IMO That was his dad's job.

I have no idea if his pants were on or off or if a belt was used.:shrug:


This morning I went back and watched and listened to the entire police interview of the boy. I've been reading so many posts saying the boy was coerced and wanted to view it again to see if my mind could be changed.

I see him as relaxed, calm and only changed his story when the police said they would be able to find out the truth anyway. IMO They went out of their was to be nice to him and put him at ease.

I remember once when my son was 8 and finished his lunch in lightening speed ..or so he claimed. He swore up and down he had ate it. I told him he better not be lying and said I would find out as soon as I smelled the dogs breath. As I slowly walked toward the dog....he admitted feeding it to her so he could go back outside to play.

This boy lied much the same way...imoMaybe you need to study the tape again, without goggles on.

http://insession.blogs.cnn.com/2008/11/19/free-the-eight-year-old-alleged-killer/

NEW YORK–The debate over whether the eight-year-old Arizona boy should be prosecuted as an adult or as a juvenile misses the point entirely: he should not be prosecuted at all.

Real questions have emerged from the videotaped interrogation as to whether this third-grader has now given a false confession. But even assuming he was the shooter, pinning any legal blame on him is absurd. Bringing police and incarceration to bear upon a young child whose feet dangle well above the floor is not only cruel to him, it distracts us from the real issues.

Arizona’s lax gun laws do not require adults to keep their guns away from children, or even to install trigger locks. As long as we allow angry or confused kids access to guns, we will have gun deaths. Are we so afraid to address the real issue that we’d prosecute a little boy?

–Lisa Bloom, In Session anchor

JMHO :hat:

[Justice_Dawg]

The defense has proposed that a certain therapist be brought in to talk to the child. This therapist will work for the defense atty. and the child's conversations with her cannot be used against. She cannot testify against him.

Did you notice that the child's bio mother and stepmom are listed as state's witnesses (against the child)?

Family Members listed as State's witnesses:
That is a prosecution tatic to keep them out of the courtroom during trial. I have seen it 1000 times.

MOO

[bkwits]

I read several posts on local TV and news websites. Many people (some are purportedly residents of St. Johns) vilify LE of St. Johns. They claim generally that LE has regularly run over the rights of the citizens. They answer to no one (said one poster).

IMO

[Justice_Dawg]

How can they compell a mother to testify against her own little boy? :flamemad:
IMO she is on the list due to a State supeona.
They can't make her testify against him. She can have herself declared a hostile witness, or she can plead the 5th.

[bkwits]

Family Members listed as State's witnesses:
That is a prosecution tatic to keep them out of the courtroom during trial. I have seen it 1000 times.

MOO

Yes, IA and it keeps the child from the comfort of his mother since defense has undoubtedly told the mom not to discuss what happened with her son.

BTW, apparently Eryn (the mom) has very few financial resources. I wonder how she affords to stay there in AZ.

:shrug:

IMO

[bkwits]

IMO she is on the list due to a State supeona.
They can't make her testify against him. She can have herself declared a hostile witness, or she can plead the 5th.

I don't think she can plead the 5th, if she isn't charged with a crime or it wouldn't implicate her in a crime.

She certainly would be a hostile witness. Doesn't the atty have to ask for that?

Anyway, IMO, she will not be called as a witness if this ever goes to court. IMO

[Justice_Dawg]

Yes, IA and it keeps the child from the comfort of his mother since defense has undoubtedly told the mom not to discuss what happened with her son.

BTW, apparently Eryn (the mom) has very few financial resources. I wonder how she affords to stay there in AZ.

:shrug:

IMOI saw a video of her with some of her family members with her. I am guessing she has family there.

[bkwits]

I saw a video of her with some of her family members with her. I am guessing she has family there.

Ok, that's good. For some reason, I didn't think she had any family there.

[Justice_Dawg]

I don't think she can plead the 5th, if she isn't charged with a crime or it wouldn't implicate her in a crime.

She certainly would be a hostile witness. Doesn't the atty have to ask for that?

Anyway, IMO, she will not be called as a witness if this ever goes to court. IMO

She sure can plead the 5th (she was there the weekend before the murders and she called and confronted the stepmom about beatings) They may try to incriminate her. I personally wouldn't put it past them. :chicken:

[Justice_Dawg]

Ok, that's good. For some reason, I didn't think she had any family there.

They said VR lived there all of his life. I am thinking Eryn is also originally from there.

imo

[LindaNJ1216]

Yes, you made a point. Your son admitted to what you wanted from him so he could go outside and play.

This accused child has not told one story that is consistent with the crime scene or even consistent. The two women police officers are leaning into him, leading him into what they wanted him to say. You can see him struggling to say what they want him to say.

IMO, this so-called "confession" points as much to innocence as guilt. Shame on St. Johns LE.

BTW, do you think your son really fed his lunch to the dog? Or did he just want to go out and play?

Yes, I know he did. His lunch was gone before I had even made my plate and sat down with him. My back was turned for no more than a minute and a half! (Here...no one is supposed to start eating until everyone has sat down.)
He fed it to her so he could get back outside quicker...he told the truth because he thought I would know the truth by smelling the dog's breath.

[Justice_Dawg]

I would still challenge anyone to match up the boy's statements during the confession with ANY photographs or other evidence that is available. Ain't gonna happen.

Not in 1000 years. :biggrin:

[Justice_Dawg]

Good read:
Eight Year Old St. Johns Boy Is Poster Kid for Gun Laws

If there's anything the tragedy in St. Johns should teach you, it's that if you plan to spank your eight year old 1,000 times, you may not want to show him how to shoot a rifle. Either that, or you might want to consider the option of a "time out" for the little bugger.

Sure, sure, no one deserves to die just for spanking some kid 1,000 times, but police claim the eight year old in question kept a record of his spankings, and that the thousandth would be the last. Of course, at this point, to say that we don't have all the details in the November 5 shooting would be an understatement. Even the boy's tainted video confession raises more questions than it answers.

More:
http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/*******/2008/12/eight_year_old_st_johns_boy_po.php

[Crispy]

Hey Justice your link didn't work so I went and looked for it at the site. Made a url for it.

http://tinyurl.com/59gnvj

Good article

[muska]

In the court transcripts, I remember the defense lawyer said he wasn't requesting the child's release because, at the time, there was no place for the child to go. He requested the right to come back to that and the judge seemed to agree. Any chance of he could be releaese to something like house arrest? The evidence is so flimsy. If he could be released, I wonder if his mom would now have a place they could stay. What does it mean that the judge was willing to release him for the furlough.....that the judge doesn't consider him dangerous?

It breaks my heart to think of an 8 year old being held in a facility that's not equipped for him, no counseling, no family that he can really talk with. On a bright note, I just recently saw the taped interview with the attorney. In the interview, the attorney mentioned that two people had brought the boy bags of toys. It's nice to hear about those little acts of kindness, especially at this time of year.

[muska]

Most of you may have seen this editorial, but if not it's a very good read: www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/LaurieRoberts/39742

Mara Siegel, a Maricopa County juvenile public defender who is working with the defense team in this case, said there is reason to believe that the boy didn't kill his father and another man. But she can't talk about it.

Steven Drizen, a law professor at Northwestern University and director of the Center for Wrongful Convictions said, "I can't tell you ....how many kids confess to murder or other serious crimes while their parents are sitting in the lobby. It happens every single day in police stations throughout this country."

[bkwits]

In the court transcripts, I remember the defense lawyer said he wasn't requesting the child's release because, at the time, there was no place for the child to go. He requested the right to come back to that and the judge seemed to agree. Any chance of he could be releaese to something like house arrest? The evidence is so flimsy. If he could be released, I wonder if his mom would now have a place they could stay. What does it mean that the judge was willing to release him for the furlough.....that the judge doesn't consider him dangerous?

It breaks my heart to think of an 8 year old being held in a facility that's not equipped for him, no counseling, no family that he can really talk with. On a bright note, I just recently saw the taped interview with the attorney. In the interview, the attorney mentioned that two people had brought the boy bags of toys. It's nice to hear about those little acts of kindness, especially at this time of year.

The 7 and 8 y o suspects in the Ryan Harris case were put at home under house arrest. They adapted ankle bracelets for them. I thought this child heavily shackled in chains was a bit much. IMO

[Details]

Most of you may have seen this editorial, but if not it's a very good read: www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/LaurieRoberts/39742...I like the bits about how For hundreds of years, we've presumed that kids his age are incapable of forming the criminal intent necessary to commit murder.and that Jonathan Doody's nine life sentences in the infamous 1991 Buddist monk murders were thrown out on Thursday, by a court that cited a long ago landmark Arizona ruling, one which says “admissions and confessions of juveniles require special caution.”...Doody, at the time, was 17.

[Justice_Dawg]

Hey Justice your link didn't work so I went and looked for it at the site. Made a url for it.

http://tinyurl.com/59gnvj

Good article

TYVM! :seeya:

[Justice_Dawg]

The 5th amendent is the right against self incrimination, right? So how can she plead the 5th to something unless her answer would incriminate her in this, or another crime?

I am trying really hard to get caught up with all you armchair sleuths - you all know so much!

LOL, I AM an investigator. Wish I could just sit here all the time :D
Anyway,
Prosecutors may ask her that since she had just been there that weekend to see the boy, she may have given the boy ideas. ie "If daddy wasn't around, you could live with me" "If daddy wasn't around you could live at my house and mommy won't spank you"
Things of that nature.

These are Prosecutors we are talking about. ;)

[GentleBreeze]

THANKS for info! I just cannot believe they never tested his hands; crazy! I thought that was SOP??


It is if they think someone is a suspect. The night of the murders they did not suspect him and thought he was just a witness.

Big difference.

[Details]

There was no reason not to test the next day - it might have found nothing (even if he had shot the gun) - but if it did, that'd maybe show something (or maybe just show that he'd been around the victims). After all, we're talking about an 8 year old's level of cleanliness and thourough handwashing - odds are pretty good if there was anything to find, it might well still have been there.

[bkwits]

I don't think his step mother should have ever put her hands on him. IMO That was his dad's job.

I have no idea if his pants were on or off or if a belt was used.:shrug:


This morning I went back and watched and listened to the entire police interview of the boy. I've been reading so many posts saying the boy was coerced and wanted to view it again to see if my mind could be changed.

I see him as relaxed, calm and only changed his story when the police said they would be able to find out the truth anyway. IMO They went out of their was to be nice to him and put him at ease.

I remember once when my son was 8 and finished his lunch in lightening speed ..or so he claimed. He swore up and down he had ate it. I told him he better not be lying and said I would find out as soon as I smelled the dogs breath. As I slowly walked toward the dog....he admitted feeding it to her so he could go back outside to play.

This boy lied much the same way...imo


It just dawned on me that you actually led or coerced your child into a confession. Because you already knew the answer you wanted and you got him to admit before he could be released (go out and play). That is similar to what LE did to the child in this case. They already knew what they wanted to hear. IMO

[GentleBreeze]

You state:
In AZ it is not against the law to spank children.
and
Corporal punishment is also not against the law in AZ.
-------------
Then may I ask why, if he had any bruises would the stepmom have been arrested???

Because that would be assault. Most states allow for spankings but they cant leave bruises on a child. If it is done, then the parent can be arrested.

Since they knew about the spanking the very next day they would have checked the child out and had he had any bruises from the spanking then they would have arrested the step mom. The DA or defense attorney wouldn't be saying, 5 days later after the fact, that neither one of them have uncovered any abuse either.

So imo there is no evidence that shows abuse was done.

imoo

[bkwits]

The defense requested a jury trial, even if it is tried in juvenile court. Has that been discussed here?

[GentleBreeze]

There was no reason not to test the next day - it might have found nothing (even if he had shot the gun) - but if it did, that'd maybe show something (or maybe just show that he'd been around the victims). After all, we're talking about an 8 year old's level of cleanliness and thourough hand washing - odds are pretty good if there was anything to find, it might well still have been there.

They do not test the next day after 19 hours has elapsed. GSR doesn't remain on the hands for very long and is easily washed or rubbed away.

Now they did take his clothing and he may have gunshot residue on his clothing. I am sure, due to the circumstances unfolding, his clothes had not been washed and the officers remembered what he was wearing the day of the murders.

imoo

[Justice_Dawg]

In the court transcripts, I remember the defense lawyer said he wasn't requesting the child's release because, at the time, there was no place for the child to go. He requested the right to come back to that and the judge seemed to agree. Any chance of he could be releaese to something like house arrest? The evidence is so flimsy. If he could be released, I wonder if his mom would now have a place they could stay. What does it mean that the judge was willing to release him for the furlough.....that the judge doesn't consider him dangerous?

It breaks my heart to think of an 8 year old being held in a facility that's not equipped for him, no counseling, no family that he can really talk with. On a bright note, I just recently saw the taped interview with the attorney. In the interview, the attorney mentioned that two people had brought the boy bags of toys. It's nice to hear about those little acts of kindness, especially at this time of year.

Your whole post is correct. To answer your question about staying with his mother, the judge would have never released him for the furlough if he considered him dangerous. Actually, some decisions by the judge are largely based on what the GUARDIAN AD LITEM suggests. It is obvious that the Guardian ad Litem has checked out the mother and her surroundings and has approved her to be the best caretaker for the child, or the boy would have never left detention.

I am hoping the boy will be released at the status hearing on Dec. 8th.

[GentleBreeze]

The defense requested a jury trial, even if it is tried in juvenile court. Has that been discussed here?

Yes, and the Judge denied his request.

Juvenile cases are always presided over by a sole Judge not a jury.

Sounds like he is a little fearful of letting a Judge do it. Judges don't get emotionally charged like jurors can. They look at the evidence and the facts at hand, in a matter of fact way.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

Your whole post is correct. To answer your question about staying with his mother, the judge would have never released him for the furlough if he considered him dangerous. Actually, some decisions by the judge are largely based on what the GUARDIAN AD LITEM suggests. It is obvious that the Guardian ad Litem has checked out the mother and her surroundings and has approved her to be the best caretaker for the child, or the boy would have never left detention.

I am hoping the boy will be released at the status hearing on Dec. 8th.

He was still under juvenile jurisdiction. They would have a detention officer with them to make sure neither one of them tainted the case by talking about it or going where they weren't allowed to go. It is up to the detention officers to keep tabs on him when he is out and about. It is for his security as well as the county at large and to keep the integrity of the case in place.

imoo

[Details]

They do not test the next day after 19 hours has elapsed. GSR doesn't remain on the hands for very long and is easily washed or rubbed away.

Now they did take his clothing and he may have gunshot residue on his clothing. I am sure, due to the circumstances unfolding, his clothes had not been washed and the officers remembered what he was wearing the day of the murders.

imooHe was wearing the same clothes, which gives a pretty good indication not much time was spent on washing up (nor would anyone expect that - when you have your grandson who just saw his father dead - you hopefully cuddle and coddle him, rather than working on hygene).

Weird link - but this looks like some solid data.
http://www.blogit.dodgy-at-best.com/forensicallyyours/2006/07/10/long-range-gsr-series-gunshot-residue-travel-deposition-persistance/

Washing will remove plenty, interaction with clothing (hands in and out of pockets) will remove some, a good wash with soap and water will remove nearly all - but GSR can hang around for 120 hours, when undisturbed. I'm thinking if he pulled the trigger, if he didn't do some serious handwashing (and a kid still in the same clothes, an 8 year old boy - probably not), there'd be a very good chance of finding something if it existed, inbetween the fingers.

It's always worth a look. I don't know what policies are - but this is a kid, not an adult. You can expect different behaviors.

[GentleBreeze]

He was wearing the same clothes, which gives a pretty good indication not much time was spent on washing up (nor would anyone expect that - when you have your grandson who just saw his father dead - you hopefully cuddle and coddle him, rather than working on hygiene).

Weird link - but this looks like some solid data.
http://www.blogit.dodgy-at-best.com/forensicallyyours/2006/07/10/long-range-gsr-series-gunshot-residue-travel-deposition-persistance/

Washing will remove plenty, interaction with clothing (hands in and out of pockets) will remove some, a good wash with soap and water will remove nearly all - but GSR can hang around for 120 hours, when undisturbed. I'm thinking if he pulled the trigger, if he didn't do some serious handwashing (and a kid still in the same clothes, an 8 year old boy - probably not), there'd be a very good chance of finding something if it existed, inbetween the fingers.

It's always worth a look. I don't know what policies are - but this is a kid, not an adult. You can expect different behaviors.

It was too late. He was a suspect and they would have to go to the court to get a motion to test. It took the DA over a week or two to even be allowed to take physical evidence from him, such as footprints, fingerprints, hair samples, etc.

ETA: He wasnt wearing the same clothing the next day but they were able to retrieve them, most likely from his grandmother's home.

imoo

[Justice_Dawg]

He was still under juvenile jurisdiction. They would have a detention officer with them to make sure neither one of them tainted the case by talking about it or going where they weren't allowed to go. It is up to the detention officers to keep tabs on him when he is out and about. It is for his security as well as the county at large and to keep the integrity of the case in place.

imoo

Did one of the guards sleep in the same bed with them too? Come on!

[bkwits]

Yes, and the Judge denied his request.

Juvenile cases are always presided over by a sole Judge not a jury.

Sounds like he is a little fearful of letting a Judge do it. Judges don't get emotionally charged like jurors can. They look at the evidence and the facts at hand, in a matter of fact way.

imo

Can you point me to where it shows that the judge denied the request? TY

[Justice_Dawg]

It just dawned on me that you actually led or coerced your child into a confession. Because you already knew the answer you wanted and you got him to admit before he could be released (go out and play). That is similar to what LE did to the child in this case. They already knew what they wanted to hear. IMO

Good catch. :lol:

[Justice_Dawg]

Can you point me to where it shows that the judge denied the request? TY
http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/
PREADJUDICATION HEARING.pdf

Judge: The Honorable Michael P. Roca, Judge Pro Tem

He's not staying.

[bkwits]

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/
PREADJUDICATION HEARING.pdf

Judge: The Honorable Michael P. Roca, Judge Pro Tem

He's not staying.


Do you mean another judge will decide whether he gets a jury trial?

[Justice_Dawg]

Do you mean another judge will decide whether he gets a jury trial?

No, if there is a trial, another judge will be hearing it.

[bkwits]

No, if there is a trial, another judge will be hearing it.

Well, I originally asked the OP where it said that the judge denied a jury trial. I haven't seen the evidence of that. I've read the document you reference four times and still don't see it.
::confused::

[Justice_Dawg]

Well, I originally asked the OP where it said that the judge denied a jury trial. I haven't seen the evidence of that. I've read the document you reference four times and still don't see it.
::confused::

Page 2
1st line.

[Details]

It was too late. He was a suspect and they would have to go to the court to get a motion to test. It took the DA over a week or two to even be allowed to take physical evidence from him, such as footprints, fingerprints, hair samples, etc.

ETA: He wasnt wearing the same clothing the next day but they were able to retrieve them, most likely from his grandmother's home.

imooAh, thanks - that does change everything.

I'd had the impression he'd had the same clothes on - which I would have found completely normal for a kid his age in this type of traumatic situation - there could well have been too much crying, cuddling, and coddling to be bothered with dealing with changing clothes - I could imagine him falling asleep in someone's arms, and them deciding he didn't need to be woken up.

Wow - anyone else noticing those nice smilies? Cool stuff - don't want to go too far OT - but :thumbsup:

[GentleBreeze]

Can you point me to where it shows that the judge denied the request? TY

It is somewhere on the Apache County website, bkwits.

[GentleBreeze]

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/
PREADJUDICATION HEARING.pdf

Judge: The Honorable Michael P. Roca, Judge Pro Tem

He's not staying.


Ok maybe I am also missing it. lol Where does it state he will not be staying on the case?

tia

[Justice_Dawg]

Ok maybe I am also missing it. lol Where does it state he will not be staying on the case?

tia

Judge Pro Tem-

n. short for a temporary judge

[Crispy]

We got new smileys :thumbsup:

ETA: I wonder if the evaluations have taken place yet.

[GentleBreeze]

Judge Pro Tem-

n. short for a temporary judge

Well he has tried other cases.

I found this link and they do think he will be the presiding Judge over the case. It seems it would be cases just like this one where he would be brought in on since the Presiding Judge has recused herself. (She must have known the Romero family)

http://rbbadger.wordpress.com/2008/11/30/plea-deal/

imoo

[LindaNJ1216]

It just dawned on me that you actually led or coerced your child into a confession. Because you already knew the answer you wanted and you got him to admit before he could be released (go out and play). That is similar to what LE did to the child in this case. They already knew what they wanted to hear. IMO

I already knew the truth and that's what I wanted to hear. The tale this boy told wasn't holding water, they wanted to get to the truth.

Going outside was not the reward for telling me what I wanted to hear.

You honestly think I let him up to go out and play after doing what he did? Nope......he needed to eat lunch first and waited until I made him another plate. I also made sure I thanked him for telling me the truth.

[Justice_Dawg]

Well he has tried other cases.

I found this link and they do think he will be the presiding Judge over the case. It seems it would be cases just like this one where he would be brought in on since the Presiding Judge has recused herself. (She must have known the Romero family)

http://rbbadger.wordpress.com/2008/11/30/plea-deal/

imoo

LOL, he is a real judge.

He just still states he is Temporarily there, or the Pro Tem would have been dropped from all of the filings after he was assigned.
He said he'd give it away in a minute when they find someone else. Most of us read that in the transcripts.

[bkwits]

Page 2
1st line.

:scared:
I must be going blind.

[bkwits]

I already knew the truth and that's what I wanted to hear. The tale this boy told wasn't holding water, they wanted to get to the truth.

snipped for relevance.

I'm sure that is just how the officers felt...they wanted the boy to confess. They "knew" the truth. IMO

[muska]

On another site I read that both the prosecutor(Carlyon) and the county attorney(Candelaria) are leaving as of January 1. What I read said Candelaria lost for reelection and Carlyon is moving on to a position in Navaho County. That would be pretty crazy if they and the judge all left. Maybe they'll stay on to finish this case, although with other juvenile cases that I'Ve followed they seem to go on a long time. I hope this can be resolved for the child quickly.

[Justice_Dawg]

:scared:
I must be going blind.

:lol:

I am used to memorizing court papers. (I need a bang head on wall icon)

[Justice_Dawg]

On another site I read that both the prosecutor(Carlyon) and the county attorney(Candelaria) are leaving as of January 1. What I read said Candelaria lost for reelection and Carlyon is moving on to a position in Navaho County. That would be pretty crazy if they and the judge all left. Maybe they'll stay on to finish this case, although with other juvenile cases that I'Ve followed they seem to go on a long time. I hope this can be resolved for the child quickly.

Candelaria is out. Carlyon is staying (on this case). Judge is up in the air.

[LindaNJ1216]

I put the bold in for reference.

So, Linda, are you then admitting that you think the officers suspected he was lying and therefore suspected him? ("Did you shoot your father?") Why then no Miranda's and no parent or guardian in the room?

Not in the beginning. I believe they thought he was a witness and began questioning him as such. His step-mother gave permission for the interview. When his story didn't make much sense they gently questioned some more. LE wanted information to catch whoever did it. LE needed to get the information out of him if he saw something and it produced a lead. Maybe they thought he was confused becuase he was in shock? They also have to access him as a witness, is he credible? As his story unraveled, toward the end of the interview is when they suspected him. imo

[LindaNJ1216]

If that is truly what you believe you saw in the video, then I think you are watching a completely different video from everyone else!

To most, it is quite obvious they are leading him into all of the questions.

And after watching the video, I really don't recall him ever actually stating "I shot them" or "I killed them." It was always along with a "possibly" or "maybe" or "I think" or "I might have." I might be wrong, but I never heard him say outright...."OK...you got me....I lied and I killed them both and meant to do it."

When he began telling the story at the beginning of the "interview" he sounds very credible. "And then next" "and after that" etc....very clear and concise. Then they start with the "well....it's not nice to lie...." "someone told us they heard your voice" etc... It sounded much more to me that the kid was making it up as he went along to answer whatever fit what the officers were looking for.

IMO

He starting obviously lying when he was asked about GPR on his clothes...he tried to make excuses for WHY they would have found it there...he walked through a cloud of smoke:rolleyes:

He then LIES about shooting the gun at the imaginary car outside.:rolleyes:

He sounded every bit as cool and confident as he did in the beginning.

[bkwits]

If that is truly what you believe you saw in the video, then I think you are watching a completely different video from everyone else!

To most, it is quite obvious they are leading him into all of the questions.

And after watching the video, I really don't recall him ever actually stating "I shot them" or "I killed them." It was always along with a "possibly" or "maybe" or "I think" or "I might have." I might be wrong, but I never heard him say outright...."OK...you got me....I lied and I killed them both and meant to do it."

When he began telling the story at the beginning of the "interview" he sounds very credible. "And then next" "and after that" etc....very clear and concise. Then they start with the "well....it's not nice to lie...." "someone told us they heard your voice" etc... It sounded much more to me that the kid was making it up as he went along to answer whatever fit what the officers were looking for.

IMO

ITA, he is all over the place trying hard to say what they expect him to say.

IMO, the officers started with a preset idea. One of the officers, Avila, had already questioned him the night before. They were questioning this time because of what Mrs. Romans had told them. \

Does anyone know how long they really questioned him? I feel it was more than the time on the video.

[GentleBreeze]

LOL, he is a real judge.

He just still states he is Temporarily there, or the Pro Tem would have been dropped from all of the filings after he was assigned.
He said he'd give it away in a minute when they find someone else. Most of us read that in the transcripts.

Of course he said he would give it away in a minute. What Judge wouldnt want to? It reminds me of Judges in my own county that say the same thing and then still find themselves on the case whether they want to or not.:smile:

[GentleBreeze]

ITA, he is all over the place trying hard to say what they expect him to say.

IMO, the officers started with a preset idea. One of the officers, Avila, had already questioned him the night before. They were questioning this time because of what Mrs. Romans had told them. \

Does anyone know how long they really questioned him? I feel it was more than the time on the video.

About an hour in the taped interview.

They only spoke to him the night of the murders when he was at the scene with his friend and friend's dad when LE showed up.

imoo

[bkwits]

He starting obviously lying when he was asked about GPR on his clothes...he tried to make excuses for WHY they would have found it there...he walked through a cloud of smoke:rolleyes:

He then LIES about shooting the gun at the imaginary car outside.:rolleyes:

He sounded every bit as cool and confident as he did in the beginning.

I assume you meant GSR. He's 8. I don't think he had a clue as to what GSR is. Of course he lies, all kids lie, don't they? He knew he was in trouble for something. He said he didn't shoot a gun, he said he did. He sounded confused about the question.

This so-called confession is useless. IMO, it is totally foolish to base your belief in his guilt or in his innocence based on this set-up, so-called confession.

Not to mention, it totally violates his constitutional rights. It is a travesty. IMO

[GentleBreeze]

He starting obviously lying when he was asked about GPR on his clothes...he tried to make excuses for WHY they would have found it there...he walked through a cloud of smoke:rolleyes:

He then LIES about shooting the gun at the imaginary car outside.:rolleyes:

He sounded every bit as cool and confident as he did in the beginning.

Yes, he did and if LE was trying to lead him why in the world would they lead him to say he shot the victims twice? Or to say that his dad's face was already bloody when he discovered him yet he said it was after that he ended his suffering?:confused:

[GentleBreeze]

I assume you meant GSR. He's 8. I don't think he had a clue as to what GSR is. Of course he lies, all kids lie, don't they? He knew he was in trouble for something. He said he didn't shoot a gun, he said he did. He sounded confused about the question.

This so-called confession is useless. IMO, it is totally foolish to base your belief in his guilt or in his innocence based on this set-up, so-called confession.

Not to mention, it totally violates his constitutional rights. It is a travesty. IMO

Seems like he did know. Very interesting that he said there was "smoke" everywhere. He said that he thinks he did..... well the autopsy report will show that he did DO what he thought he did. They both were shot in the head like he "thought" he did.

imoo

[LindaNJ1216]

I assume you meant GSR. He's 8. I don't think he had a clue as to what GSR is. Of course he lies, all kids lie, don't they? He knew he was in trouble for something. He said he didn't shoot a gun, he said he did. He sounded confused about the question.

This so-called confession is useless. IMO, it is totally foolish to base your belief in his guilt or in his innocence based on this set-up, so-called confession.

Not to mention, it totally violates his constitutional rights. It is a travesty. IMO

yes, I meant GSR! sorry:tongueside:

[bkwits]

Yes, he did and if LE was trying to lead him why in the world would they lead him to say he shot the victims twice? Or to say that his dad's face was already bloody when he discovered him yet he said it was after that he ended his suffering?:confused:

Well, the two female officers did try to get him to say that he shot them more than twice. Maybe he shot them several times or maybe he didn't shoot them at all. We just don't know. IMO

He may even think he did shoot them twice by the time it was over (whether he did or didn't shoot them). IMO

[LindaNJ1216]

Then they tell him all the bullets came from the same gun.

He then volunteers that he uses the airsoft gun without permission. Then he says the reason he has the gun is to end their suffering shoots dad twice....reloads incase the "intruder" returns and proceeds to shoot Tim:huh:

I will say something was off....the audio and video weren't in sync...is there some audio missing? Did anyone else notice?

[Crispy]

I have a bad habit of turning on video and just listening not watching! If I get time I'll watch it again and look for that.

He doesn't really volunteer that he uses the air soft gun, they ask him if he ever touches the guns when his parents aren't home.

This case is driving me batty!!!

[Details]

Seems like he did know. Very interesting that he said there was "smoke" everywhere. He said that he thinks he did..... well the autopsy report will show that he did DO what he thought he did. They both were shot in the head like he "thought" he did.

imooYeah - to me, this is the clue it's a false confession. He "thinks", "guesses", etc. When they ask him for what happened at the start - he's able to just say it. When they start pushing him to say he was shooting, he starts going into imagination, isn't sure what they want him to say, and thus, the uncertain wording of "thought", "thinks", etc. It's exactly like the Crowe case - you hear the same wording from the poor boy there when he's making his false confession.

He's trying to guess what they want to hear. He doesn't know how many times to say they were shot (and shooting someone in the head - yeah, that's not real distinctive), his story doesn't fit with Tim's forensics at all, he's just going with whatever they say, but doesn't add anything on to that.

[Justice_Dawg]

He starting obviously lying when he was asked about GPR on his clothes...he tried to make excuses for WHY they would have found it there...he walked through a cloud of smoke:rolleyes:

He then LIES about shooting the gun at the imaginary car outside.:rolleyes:

He sounded every bit as cool and confident as he did in the beginning.
Did your eyes stay that way?

In an 8 yr old boys mind, If he EVER shot a gun, there would be GSR on his cloths. He DOES NOT UNDERSTAND what GSR is.

Imaginary car? Tim told his wife on the phone that a car pulled up.

No he does NOT sound cool and confident. He sounds like he will say anything to get the he!! out of that room! I can't blame him! They brought him in in his pajamas. WTH is wrong with this picture!!!!

[GentleBreeze]

Did your eyes stay that way?

In an 8 yr old boys mind, If he EVER shot a gun, there would be GSR on his cloths. He DOES NOT UNDERSTAND what GSR is.

Imaginary car? Tim told his wife on the phone that a car pulled up.

No he does NOT sound cool and confident. He sounds like he will say anything to get the he!! out of that room! I can't blame him! They brought him in in his pajamas. WTH is wrong with this picture!!!!

Really? I guess I missed that part. When did she say that Tim told her a car had pulled up? Is that in the transcript of the probable cause hearing? Do you know which section?

Tia

[bkwits]

Really? I guess I missed that part. When did she say that Tim told her a car had pulled up? Is that in the transcript of the probable cause hearing? Do you know which section?

Tia
Yes, he was talking to her on the phone when the car pulled up. It's in one of the officer's or chief's report.

[GentleBreeze]

Yes, he was talking to her on the phone when the car pulled up. It's in one of the officer's or chief's report.

Ok thanks I will go read it. It is in the transcripts, right?

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Well I don't interpret what Mickels said about the car pulling up as others here.

I think Mrs. Romans told them that Tim was talking on the phone with her when his vehicle pulled into the Romero property when they arrived home. She could probably hear it when they hit the loose gravel of the driveway and heard VR slam the door getting out and the truck cutting off. He may have even told Tim, he would see him inside.


imo

[Keegan]

Seems like he did know. Very interesting that he said there was "smoke" everywhere. He said that he thinks he did..... well the autopsy report will show that he did DO what he thought he did. They both were shot in the head like he "thought" he did.

imoo
Smoke everywhere???? That little rifle put smoke EVERYWHERE...You can sure see a little guy making up a story for the benefit of two very unprofessional cops.

[Justice_Dawg]

Well I don't interpret what Mickels said about the car pulling up as others here.

I think Mrs. Romans told them that Tim was talking on the phone with her when his vehicle pulled into the Romero property when they arrived home. She could probably hear it when they hit the loose gravel of the driveway and heard VR slam the door getting out and the truck cutting off. He may have even told Tim, he would see him inside.


imo

You mean officer Neckle?

I think Tim was talking on the phone with her when "the car pulled up"

Nobody said "when the Truck pulled up."

He called her after he was already parked.
imo

[Justice_Dawg]

Smoke everywhere???? That little rifle put smoke EVERYWHERE...You can sure see a little guy making up a story for the benefit of two very unprofessional cops.

Puff the Magic Dragon. :lol:

[GentleBreeze]

You mean officer Neckle?

I think Tim was talking on the phone with her when "the car pulled up"

Nobody said "when the Truck pulled up."

He called her after he was already parked.
imo

I understand you interpret that way but I do not. I think she told them he was talking to her already when they pulled up at the home. She would be able to hear the motor shut off, the door slam and when the tires hit the gravel too imo.

We will see, I guess, eventually.

I think that is why VR was driving and TRs sitting in the passenger seat on the way home because he called his wife and talked to her on his drive home until he got through and hung up whatever time that happened to be each day before he went inside.

I have seen officers before say "car" when it was actually a truck or van. A female would be more prone to do that imo.

imoo