8 year old accused of double murder

[Kara]

I went to respond on the proper forum but I see we're on holiday lockdown/forum now...so....

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/11/26/20081126stjohns-boy1126-ON.html

A search affidavit by Sgt. Lucas Rodriguez says the child "is believed to have made ledgers and or communicated in the form of writings about his intentions. (The boy) told a CPS . . . worker that when he reached one thousand spankings . . . that would be his limit. (The boy) kept a tally of his spankings on a piece of paper."

The wording is interesting. It doesn't say the writings are a fact...they are "believed" to exist, in the application for a search warrant. It doesn't say there was any finding of such writings.

I don't know if this boy killed his father and another man or not...I do know the "confession" doesn't seem to match the evidence. It seems the evidence found also doesn't match the sworn affadavits given to support the search warrants.

I know it is not impossible for a child to be a cold blooded killer. I just don't see anything to support the fact that this child is or could be such a killer.

It's also interesting how this info comes out in spite of a gag order in the cae....

[Justice_Dawg]

Gag has been broken, big time. :cuss:

Defense to the rescue:

In an affidavit for a search warrant, Sgt. Lucas Rodriguez writes that the boy tallied the spankings on a piece of paper.

The boy's defense attorney, Benjamin Brewer, said Wednesday that the boy's grandmother likely was stressed and that he plans to interview her.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iG_nB7rdOr3TiaL5ph3YDR5qNNTAD94MVTPG0

I saw on one link that there was blood on one of the papers, I'll go get it. :chicken:

[Justice_Dawg]

I went to respond on the proper forum but I see we're on holiday lockdown/forum now...so....

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/11/26/20081126stjohns-boy1126-ON.html



The wording is interesting. It doesn't say the writings are a fact...they are "believed" to exist, in the application for a search warrant. It doesn't say there was any finding of such writings.

I don't know if this boy killed his father and another man or not...I do know the "confession" doesn't seem to match the evidence. It seems the evidence found also doesn't match the sworn affadavits given to support the search warrants.

I know it is not impossible for a child to be a cold blooded killer. I just don't see anything to support the fact that this child is or could be such a killer.

It's also interesting how this info comes out in spite of a gag order in the cae....


From the link above:
The search warrant return does not appear to list any kind of spankings ledger among items recovered from the family residence. It does note that evidence includes a spelling worksheet with blood on it and a white sheet of paper labeled, "Story (boy's first name) the Family."

:shrug:

[Kara]

Gag has been broken, big time. :cuss:

Defense to the rescue:

In an affidavit for a search warrant, Sgt. Lucas Rodriguez writes that the boy tallied the spankings on a piece of paper.

The boy's defense attorney, Benjamin Brewer, said Wednesday that the boy's grandmother likely was stressed and that he plans to interview her.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iG_nB7rdOr3TiaL5ph3YDR5qNNTAD94MVTPG0

I saw on one link that there was blood on one of the papers, I'll go get it. :chicken:I remember reading something about blood on paper...but I don't remember what paper it was.

Maybe those prior calls to address were for domestic violence?? Maybe it wasn't adult on adult domestic violence? Maybe the child was taking way too may "swats"? Or maybe that was just a theory designed to get a search warrant which failed to produce the expected documents??

BTW...glad ya found your way over here. I tend to spend more time reading than posting, but that's hard to do if nobody is posting. :)

[WillowInFlight]

I am so torn on this, at 8 do you really know right from wrong? Hearing him talk breaks my heart.

[Kara]

From the link above:
The search warrant return does not appear to list any kind of spankings ledger among items recovered from the family residence. It does note that evidence includes a spelling worksheet with blood on it and a white sheet of paper labeled, "Story (boy's first name) the Family."

:shrug:I should have kept reading before responding....

Hmmm...so it was a spelling worksheet that had blood on it. No "tally sheet" of spankings was recovered though......

[Justice_Dawg]

From Kara's first link again:
Looks like we will hear about a couple of trouble makers:
-------------------
The case file contains other revelations, including statements from friends that Romans and the boy's father had been involved in disputes with co-workers at the nearby power plant, and with men at a local bar.
------------------
What was this child's life like?

[Kara]

I am so torn on this, at 8 do you really know right from wrong? Hearing him talk breaks my heart.

I think an 8 year old does understand the difference between right and wrong. I don't think they fully understand the long term ramifications of murder though.

With that said, if this child did commit this crime, I don't think he is beyond saving. I'm also not convinced that he did commit this crime.

[Justice_Dawg]

I am so torn on this, at 8 do you really know right from wrong? Hearing him talk breaks my heart.

I don't think so. I guess we will see what the specialists say. :shrug:

[blue bird]

When did he supposedly tell CPS that his 1000th spanking would be his last?

Boy not abused my A*S!

[Justice_Dawg]

It is 3 pages, but it is good!
Why Do Kids Kill?
8-Year-Old's Killing Spree Raises Questions About Why Children Murder

Experts familiar with parental murders by young children, but not involved in this case, said abuse is almost always a factor in such crimes.

"The number of homicides committed by children under 11 is infinitesimal. These are very rare events," said Paul Mones, the only lawyer in the country whose clients consist exclusively of children accused of killing their parents.

"The vast majority of parricides -- the murder of a parent -- committed by minors involve physical abuse and generally involve teenagers. Seventy-five percent of such murders involve boys who kill their fathers and 15 percent involve boys who kill their mothers," said Mones, who has defended hundreds of minors in 25 years of practice, though none younger than 10.

The most recent previous case of an 8-year-old killing his parent occurred in August 1990, when a Pennsylvania boy found his father beating his mother. The boy repeatedly plunged an 8-inch kitchen knife into the back of his father William Jones, 59.
A coroner's jury cleared the boy in the stabbing after authorities urged a finding of justifiable homicide.

--------On the last page:
Mones said a child as young as 8 would likely not be convicted, because he would not have the ability to understand his actions.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=6233064&page=1

[blue bird]

I don't think so. I guess we will see what the specialists say. :shrug:

Does this change your view at all? I still feel this crime was too complex for an 8yr old to pull off.

[WillowInFlight]

I think an 8 year old does understand the difference between right and wrong. I don't think they fully understand the long term ramifications of murder though.

With that said, if this child did commit this crime, I don't think he is beyond saving. I'm also not convinced that he did commit this crime.

Not beyond saving? Wow, that's strong.

[Justice_Dawg]

I find it very odd that the grandmother says "I knew he did it. He slept in my bed that night and cuddled up to me" (something to that effect). Does it occur to her that he had just seen 2 dead bodies probably for the first time in his life and that he just lost his father and maybe that is why this little boy was "cuddling up to her" and not because of guilt but because he was scared, confused and in shock?

Also, I don't care if my grandson committed a crime or not, the LAST thing I would be doing is shouting to the cops that my grandson committed a crime. I would be protecting him even if it meant I am going to jail for it. Without any evidence, the grandparents have already convicted him of murder. On top of that, they are talking about these deaths in front of an 8 year old boy. Then they go on to say that if anybody could commit murder it would be their grandson. What kind of people are they?


None of this adds up. I think the boy is being railroaded and the more carp that comes out, the more I am convinced of that.
1- I thought the same exact thing. He was in shock, he cuddled.

2-What kind of people are they? TRASH!!!! Her X HUSBAND LEROY was egging her on to tell the cops MORE!! :cuss::flamemad:

[Justice_Dawg]

Not beyond saving? Wow, that's strong.

8 yr old minds are not fully developed. He is not beyond saving. :seeya:

IF he even did it.

I STILL think he is covering for someone.

[Justice_Dawg]

Does this change your view at all? I still feel this crime was too complex for an 8yr old to pull off.


Not at all. I am with you.

[Kara]

Not beyond saving? Wow, that's strong.:confused: What do you mean?

If a child actually had the capability to plot and plan a murder like this....the juvenile nature of the mind would mean they could still be salvaged (in my mind).

I don't really believe this particular child did plot, plan and lie in wait, as has been alledged....but even if he did, I don't think he is unsalvagable.

[incidentally]

Not beyond saving? Wow, that's strong.

I'm confused. Kara said, "I don't think he is beyond saving".

Are you quoting something else?

[Kara]

When did he supposedly tell CPS that his 1000th spanking would be his last?

Boy not abused my A*S!Another good question... When did he tell CPS this? Before or after the killing of these two men???

Was CPS involved with this family prior to the killings?

[WillowInFlight]

:confused: What do you mean?

If a child actually had the capability to plot and plan a murder like this....the juvenile nature of the mind would mean they could still be salvaged (in my mind).

I don't really believe this particular child did plot, plan and lie in wait, as has been alledged....but even if he did, I don't think he is unsalvagable.
Kara I am so sorry, I totally misread your post. I thought you were saying he couldn't be saved. Once again I'm sorry, I read your post to fast.

[Kara]

Kara I am so sorry, I totally misread your post. I thought you were saying he couldn't be saved. Once again I'm sorry, I read your post to fast.No worries!:seeya:

[Justice_Dawg]

When did he supposedly tell CPS that his 1000th spanking would be his last?

Boy not abused my A*S!


Good Question. They got the search warrant the 6th. right?

A search affidavit by Sgt. Lucas Rodriguez says the child "is believed to have made ledgers and or communicated in the form of writings about his intentions. (The boy) told a CPS . . . worker that when he reached one thousand spankings . . . that would be his limit. (The boy) kept a tally of his spankings on a piece of paper."
---------------
Did he have a CPS worker prior to all of this?
When did they mention CPS came in at the hearing? I can't remember. hammer

[johnielee333]

Prayers for this little Boy :rose:

[Justice_Dawg]

I see where the got them, they are public, we just cant read them.

PUBLIC ACCESS TO COURT INFORMATION

http://www.supreme.state.az.us/publicaccess/notification/default.asp

Click the enter, type in any name you want. I found quite a few connected to this case.:patriot:

[incidentally]

I see where the got them, they are public, we just cant read them.

PUBLIC ACCESS TO COURT INFORMATION

http://www.supreme.state.az.us/publicaccess/notification/default.asp

Click the enter, type in any name you want. I found quite a few connected to this case.:patriot:

I'm really tired so maybe that is why I am unable to negotiate the site. Can you give me names? I typed in some and it said I didn't provide enough information.

Thanks.

Tally

[incidentally]

I'm really tired so maybe that is why I am unable to negotiate the site. Can you give me names? I typed in some and it said I didn't provide enough information.

Thanks.

Tally

Never mind. I figured it out.

[PensiveOne]

Did you read the last link that bkwits put in the thread. The foxnews one. Where did they get all of this. This kid doesn't have a chance. They are making it out like he is the Anti-Christ or something.

""In a report, St. Johns police officer Ramon Morales said he saw the boy in the Apache County courthouse on Nov. 7 — two days after the double homicide. Morales was sending a text message at the time, and the boy asked if he could look at Morales' cell phone.

"He then said 'My lawyer has a phone like that and my dad had one, too, but he's not going to need it, he's not coming back."' Morales wrote in the report.""

[Crispy]

I would like to know when he told CPS this and in what context. Were they talking about him being spanked? What if somebody said How many spankings do you think would be too many? An 8 year old kid, says like a thousand...just throwing out a random number they think is too much. jmo

[Crispy]

Link to a police report in pdf format

http://www.azcentral.com/ic/pdf/1126stjohnsuppreport.pdf

[PensiveOne]

Go to this link and then listen to the video "Grandmother:Boy capable of killings". In that video they say they say that in the police reports it says that Tim Romans was having an affair and he had a girlfriend in town. Plus both men were having serious problems at work.

It seems like these two victims weren't so innocent after all.

[PensiveOne]

OOPS. I forgot to give you the link:D:D

http://www.kpho.com/news/18154062/detail.html

[blue bird]

Link to a police report in pdf format

http://www.azcentral.com/ic/pdf/1126stjohnsuppreport.pdf

What is so horrible that the grandmother couldn't bring herself to say it? It seems that everything is pointing to this boy being abused. What in the world was going on in that house? Something must have been going on for the stepmom to tell the boy "what goes on in this house stays in this house" which also explains the domestic violence visits the police made to the house before the killings.

I'm very disturbed if he told CPS before the killings that 1000 spankings would be his limit.

[Justice_Dawg]

Go to this link and then listen to the video "Grandmother:Boy capable of killings". In that video they say they say that in the police reports it says that Tim Romans was having an affair and he had a girlfriend in town. Plus both men were having serious problems at work.

It seems like these two victims weren't so innocent after all.
OMG!

So why was Tim calling his wife everyday? Great husband that he was?
Tim had asked the girlfriend to marry him the night before?

I see all heII breaking loose.:biggrin:

:chicken:

[book]

Just as DNA is new science, so is the new science that proves the brain is not fully developed until we reach 25. Reasoning, judgment and consequences are lacking in the 14/15 year old brain, as well as the 18/19 year old. Many would say a child is not competent to stand trial, based solely on the maturity of their brain. A highly abusive childhood further inhibits the growth of the part of the brain responsible for decision-making, and makes it even harder to act rationally.

So if this is true [and I believe it is] a 14/15 year old can't understand the ramifications of their actions, waiving their Miranda rights etc., then what makes anyone think an eight year old can?

An eight year old can't have a jury of his peers.

[MichelleP]

Go to this link and then listen to the video "Grandmother:Boy capable of killings". In that video they say they say that in the police reports it says that Tim Romans was having an affair and he had a girlfriend in town. Plus both men were having serious problems at work.

It seems like these two victims weren't so innocent after all.


They may have not been too innocent when they were alive, but they still doesn't mean they should be killed. What I don't understand is if there were people that knew about this abuse that was happening outside of the house why didn't they do something about it before it led to this?

[FurthurBB]

On being released for the holiday:
I can see both sides of that equation. The boy needs human contact with his mother more than between a pane of glass or a half hour twice a week (was that the time he gets?) in her lap. By the same token going back after spending time out with mom is going to be hard on both of them. I know if it were me, and this is just me, I would sell my soul to get out of the country with him once I had my hands on him. Then there is the safety factor because the way that town is, they are probably lining up to shoot both mom and son dead. Vigilante Justice runs amok in St. Johns so I read. It's lose lose.

I would definitely take him to Canada. I believe the Canadian government would protect them and not send them back to the United States. IMO

[Justice_Dawg]

Records indicate the 8-year-old had no history of psychiatric care and was not on any medications. The search warrant affidavit contains the first public disclosure that the child had been in contact with Child Protective Services workers. CPS cases are confidential, and an Apache County Superior Court judge has imposed a gag order, so the timing and context of his statement remains unclear.http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/11/26/20081126stjohns-boy1126-ON.html

I am betting it was before the murders.

JMO

[Justice_Dawg]

Police in San Carlos, where Romans grew up, told St. Johns investigators that he had a prior drug arrest and was suspected of minor drug dealing.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/11/27/20081127stjohns1127.html
----------------
We have heard this before!!
-----------------
More from that link:
The search-warrant records contain the first public disclosure that the boy was in contact with CPS workers and may have endured regular corporal punishment. The records do not mention a diary of spankings.

Poor baby..

[bkwits]

Again, I say this latest release of "information" stinks. The Apache Co. LE is trying to save face. There actually is NO new information. Where are these ledgers and writings of the child?[


If he did write or say that 1,000 spankings was his limit, I would take that to mean that he was going to run away. He is not accused of killing his stepmom and as far as we know right now, she is the spanker. IMO

[Justice_Dawg]

Again, I say this latest release of "information" stinks. The Apache Co. LE is trying to save face. There actually is NO new information. Where are these ledgers and writings of the child?[


If he did write or say that 1,000 spankings was his limit, I would take that to mean that he was going to run away. He is not accused of killing his stepmom and as far as we know right now, she is the spanker. IMO
ITA, if he was planning :rolleyes: on killing, he would have killed Dad and step-mom, not Dad and Tim. That would have at least made more sense.

Tim was shot more times. That makes me think someone wanted him dead worse.
--------------
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/11/27/20081127stjohns1127.html
The boy's father was shot four times, twice in the head. Romans was hit six times. The shot in one of his two head wounds was fired at close range.

Which his?

Gotta love media reporting. :rolleyes:

[bkwits]

ITA, if he was planning :rolleyes: on killing, he would have killed Dad and step-mom, not Dad and Tim. That would have at least made more sense.

Tim was shot more times. That makes me think someone wanted him dead worse.
--------------
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/11/27/20081127stjohns1127.html
The boy's father was shot four times, twice in the head. Romans was hit six times. The shot in one of his two head wounds was fired at close range.

Which his?

Gotta love media reporting. :rolleyes:


I was wondering that myself whether they meant the dad or Tim.

Did you notice at the very end of the article it says that the Candlara (sp?) has two weeks to decide whether to try the child as an adult? I thought they had already decided on juvenile. :shrug:

[Justice_Dawg]

I was wondering that myself whether they meant the dad or Tim.

Did you notice at the very end of the article it says that the Candlara (sp?) has two weeks to decide whether to try the child as an adult? I thought they had already decided on juvenile. :shrug:
Prosecutors offered a plea deal to have everything tried in juvenile court. I guess we will have to wait and see if it is accepted or not.

[bkwits]

Prosecutors offered a plea deal to have everything tried in juvenile court. I guess we will have to wait and see if it is accepted or not.

Does the plea bargain include the first count, murder of Vincent?

[Justice_Dawg]

Does the plea bargain include the first count, murder of Vincent?


That is how I took it, it is in here:
STATES REPLY IN SUPPORT OF ITS MOTION TO DISMISS
http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/

[bkwits]

That is how I took it, it is in here:
STATES REPLY IN SUPPORT OF ITS MOTION TO DISMISS
http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/

I couldn't understand all of that except that (I think) the DA is saying that if the motion to dismiss with prejudice is accepted, he will refile the first charge (murder of Vincent).

[Justice_Dawg]

I couldn't understand all of that except that (I think) the DA is saying that if the motion to dismiss with prejudice is accepted, he will refile the first charge (murder of Vincent).:confused:

If the Motion to dismiss with prejudice is accepted, he can't refile the first charge.

Without prejudice he can refile.

:shrug:

[BorderCollieMom]

I would really like to hear from the folks at his school and any people that knew the boy on a social level...like his friends parents.

So far we havnt heard anything about this boys social life. Personally, I dont even think he had a social life...not like most 8 yr old boys. Im starting to think that he lived a life of hell in that house.

This "corporal" talk also leads me to think that "daddy" made it a point to get custody for OTHER reasons than momma was a smoker. He's sounding like a controlling ???? to me. I dont want to come off as bashin' a victim...but I see a nother side of "daddy" & his ways coming out.

Bars & booze, affairs, fighting with co-workers, guns laying around, prior drug charges, etc...

Im thinking this little boy "broke" a long while back and his grandparents KNEW it and probably even saw it coming...were G-parents intimidated by the son ? especially, when it came to "raising the boy" ?

jmo

[bkwits]

I'm off to my son's house for Thanksgiving. No cooking for me this year. I will catch up when I return.

:rose: Prayers for the child and his family.

[bkwits]

:confused:

If the Motion to dismiss with prejudice is accepted, he can't refile the first charge.

Without prejudice he can refile.

:shrug:

One more thing before I go. I understood that the DA would withdraw his motion to dismiss if "with prejudice" is accepted (or whatever they do). I have another son (besides the hunter) who is a lawyer (but civil not criminal). Maybe he can help me understand this. Have a good holiday.

[airportwoman]

They may have not been too innocent when they were alive, but they still doesn't mean they should be killed. What I don't understand is if there were people that knew about this abuse that was happening outside of the house why didn't they do something about it before it led to this?

Were people so afraid of the dad and his friend that they did not report abuse?

I'm on the fence as to what really happened.

[SavannahStar]

Prayers for this little Boy :rose:


Whoa. :eek:

Prayers for the two men he killed. :rose:

[Justice_Dawg]

Whoa. :eek:

Prayers for the two men he killed. :rose:
You have him Guilty before you even hear the evidence?

From the abuse this boy took, he could of been the one that ended up dead.

It happens everyday.
Mom's boyfriend indicted for death of 3 year-old girl

08:11 PM Mountain Standard Time on Wednesday, November 26, 2008

http://www.azfamily.com/news/homepagetopstory/stories/avondale-local-news-111808-child-death.1c5e79404.html

[blue bird]

You have him Guilty before you even hear the evidence?

From the abuse this boy took, he could of been the one that ended up dead.

It happens everyday.
Mom's boyfriend indicted for death of 3 year-old girl

08:11 PM Mountain Standard Time on Wednesday, November 26, 2008

http://www.azfamily.com/news/homepagetopstory/stories/avondale-local-news-111808-child-death.1c5e79404.html

Exactly, that is what happened to my husband's son. The new BF abused him to death. That is why it rubbed me the wrong way to hear the the step mom was spanking him but I guess perhaps, she figured if she did it, it wouldn't be as bad as if his father did it. :confused:

[frances1]

It's obvious from the report that the grandfather knew something bad was happening to that child. Either abuse or something. If he knows something, WHY didn't he speak out for the boy??? The grandmother kept her mouth shut to cover up for her son while her grandson's life is at stake. Again, what kind of people are there people? To me this a family lower than plankton. The truth always comes out, look at the Anthony's on the other board. All the dirty secrets eventually surface. It will only be a matter of time before we know what really happened to this innocent little boy. As far as I am concerned, IF this boy committed these crimes, then the family made him be what he is. A child is a blank piece of clay, they are what the parents make him or mold him to be. This family is dispicable. They should all be in jail for child abuse, every single one of them. They knew and said nothing. Pray for this little boy HE is the victim in all of this.

January, there are those who will disagree with you, myself included, that a child is a 'blank piece of clay'. I used to feel as you do, but years of experience and observation have taught me that genetics from both parents do affect a child's personality. I have no idea as to the guilt or innocence of this particular child. However, I do know that many 'good parents' have a bad child or children, and vice versa. I have three 'good children', but I consider myself blessed, not an expert parent.

[VC2]

It's obvious from the report that the grandfather knew something bad was happening to that child. Either abuse or something. If he knows something, WHY didn't he speak out for the boy??? The grandmother kept her mouth shut to cover up for her son while her grandson's life is at stake. Again, what kind of people are there people? To me this a family lower than plankton. The truth always comes out, look at the Anthony's on the other board. All the dirty secrets eventually surface. It will only be a matter of time before we know what really happened to this innocent little boy. As far as I am concerned, IF this boy committed these crimes, then the family made him be what he is. A child is a blank piece of clay, they are what the parents make him or mold him to be. This family is dispicable. They should all be in jail for child abuse, every single one of them. They knew and said nothing. Pray for this little boy HE is the victim in all of this.

ITA! something stinks to high heaven in that family and it is not the little boy. When i read the grandmothers remarks i was horrified. This is a child and she was acting as if he was a rabid dog.

Something else that bothers me. How in the world was it the step mom that dad had "do the spankings". That is bizarre. I know there are a lot of step moms here, can you imagine a situation where you join the "family" of dad and son and are the one to carry out corporal punishment? Talk about weird. I think the dad liked to watch his son get beaten, or something worse. Add to that 1000 are the limit omg. If he kept a tally he knows how to count so it wasnt as if he made it up out of whole cloth.

Could this be why they dropped the murder charge on the dad? they knew there was evidence of abuse, 1000 spankings or anything even close..heck 10% of that is unbelievable.

The dad and the stepmom have something to hide. I am convinced of that, even though i am not convinced he killed the two. If he did, well he and the roomate are victims.

[VC2]

Again, I say this latest release of "information" stinks. The Apache Co. LE is trying to save face. There actually is NO new information. Where are these ledgers and writings of the child?[


If he did write or say that 1,000 spankings was his limit, I would take that to mean that he was going to run away. He is not accused of killing his stepmom and as far as we know right now, she is the spanker. IMO

agreed. however... well if there was abuse, and if it was sexual abuse..and if the stepmom and dad both participated (as i said i found it bizarre she does the spankings..sadistic emotionally at the least to have essentially a stranger or replacement mom be in charge of spanking you, and it makes me think unhealthy things). Also the little boy could blame his dad more than her for telling her to do it. I don't think that it was in anyway a normal spanking given just as discipline for really outrageous behavior but still showing the child you love them.

Something is wrong in denmark.

[Kara]

January, there are those who will disagree with you, myself included, that a child is a 'blank piece of clay'. I used to feel as you do, but years of experience and observation have taught me that genetics from both parents do affect a child's personality. I have no idea as to the guilt or innocence of this particular child. However, I do know that many 'good parents' have a bad child or children, and vice versa. I have three 'good children', but I consider myself blessed, not an expert parent.
I would agree that genetics play a role. But, nurture certainly does shape and mold what nature gives you.

I think some people are born with the fiber that can't be broken. Some are born with much weaker fiber and that's when nurture really plays a huge role. That's when you can make a sociopath...but I don't believe this boy is one. There are no other indicators present.

I'm waiting to hear all the evidence but for now I'm not convinced the boy is guilty. (mostly because I cannot imagine an 8 year old child killing two men with a single shot .22 caliber rifle.)

[Kara]

agreed. however... well if there was abuse, and if it was sexual abuse..and if the stepmom and dad both participated (as i said i found it bizarre she does the spankings..sadistic emotionally at the least to have essentially a stranger or replacement mom be in charge of spanking you, and it makes me think unhealthy things). Also the little boy could blame his dad more than her for telling her to do it. I don't think that it was in anyway a normal spanking given just as discipline for really outrageous behavior but still showing the child you love them.

Something is wrong in denmark.Yup, the step parent should never be the primary disciplinarian. Only in a very good step relationship should the parent be doling out punishments...and I don't think they should ever take a hand to a step child.

[Hey Paula]

This reminds me of Cody Posey's case.

The fact his paternal grandmother knew something like this would happen because "they were too hard on the boy" implies punishment was excessive. The repeated "spankings" seemingly caused more emotional than physical damage for this boy to keep a record of them, and they must have occurred quite frequently for the spankings to reach 1,000 in number.

IMO

[Kara]

This reminds me of Cody Posey's case.

The fact his paternal grandmother knew something like this would happen because "they were too hard on the boy" implies punishment was excessive. The repeated "spankings" seemingly caused more emotional than physical damage for this boy to keep a record of them, and they must have occurred quite frequently for the spankings to reach 1,000 in number.

IMO
Except we know for sure that Cody Posey did fire those fatal shots. I'm not convinced this boy did...

BTW...it's good to see you girl! You would remember me as KaraokeDiva (I think...) :)

[Kara]

Somehow, VC, with all the dirt that is just now surfacing, I doubt very much taht the two dead men are the victims in all of this. Tim, the drug dealer with a police record and the father with God only knows what criminal activities that haven't come to light yet, brawling in bars, fighting at work, this is a guy that obviously has a temper problem or needs anger management. You don't put that kind of person in a continual environment with a small child that needs lots of love and attention. Yes, they do need discipline but the way it is starting to sound, corporal punishment sounds more like ABUSE AND TORTURE. If this kid snapped, he is still the victim because when you come down to it, who caused him to be like that.????At the end of the day, being dead does make you the ultimate victim IMO. But that doesn't necessarily mean this boy (if guilty of the killings) can't be mended.

A death penalty for being a bad parent and/or drug dealer is overly harsh. It's not justifiable... But it doesn't mean the killer is an evil person. It does mean he will need some serious mending before being allowed to live in a free society...

moo

[Hey Paula]

Except we know for sure that Cody Posey did fire those fatal shots. I'm not convinced this boy did...

BTW...it's good to see you girl! You would remember me as KaraokeDiva (I think...) :)

Hiya KD! :)

If this boy did fire that gun, which LE seems convinced of, one has to wonder what could drive an 8-year old child to do something like this. I wonder why LE was called to that house for domestic violence?

It's great to see you too! Happy Thanksgiving!

[Kara]

Hiya KD! :)

If this boy did fire that gun, which LE seems convinced of, one has to wonder what could drive an 8-year old child to do something like this. I wonder why LE was called to that house for domestic violence?

It's great to see you too! Happy Thanksgiving!So far this case certainly does have more questions than answers. This boy doesn't have a history of problem behavior....at least not one documented by the schools or LE....

It's not usual (not unusual, but not usual) for dads to get primary physical custody of a child. It makes you wonder what else was going on if a small time drug dealer was seen as the preferential parent.

[blue bird]

http://www.azfamily.com/news/homepagetopstory/stories/StJohns-local-news-112708-more-court-docs-revelati.b34ef6b.html

Apparently, according to this article, the step mom gave them permission to question the boy. WTH!!! What authority does she have to do that!?

I find in interesting that down here, so far they aren't reporting about the 1000 spankings and the CPS contact.

[PensiveOne]

It seems the stepmother gave permission for the interview with police. Does she have that right?

"Detectives were given permission by his stepmother to speak to the child without an adult..."

http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/stories/StJohns-local-news-112708-more-court-docs-revelati.b34ef6b.html

[Hey Paula]

So far this case certainly does have more questions than answers. This boy doesn't have a history of problem behavior....at least not one documented by the schools or LE....

It's not usual (not unusual, but not usual) for dads to get primary physical custody of a child. It makes you wonder what else was going on if a small time drug dealer was seen as the preferential parent.

ITA!

There are certainly lots of questions in this tragic case.

And although his paternal grandmother believes her 8-year old grandson is capable of doing this, even admitting she thought this would happen, she verbalizes mitigating circumstances when she states "they were too hard on the boy". And despite believing he was capable of committing this crime, she snuggled with him the same night and didn't fear for her life. Neither does the boy's mother fear for her life as he remains with her for a 48-hour Thanksgiving visit.

The danger appears to have lied with the boy being/living with his father, stepmother and their friends.

IMO

[SavannahStar]

But we don't know that now, do we.

I believe he did.

[incidentally]

I believe he did.

Based on what, Savannah?

[Kether]

Hiya KD! :)

If this boy did fire that gun, which LE seems convinced of, one has to wonder what could drive an 8-year old child to do something like this. I wonder why LE was called to that house for domestic violence?

It's great to see you too! Happy Thanksgiving!

When drugs are involved usually violence follows, IMHO. I keep hearing this young child in his small voice say that he stayed in trouble for lying, yet he never said he WAS lying. I am wondering if this child didn't reach out to someone at school and CPS was called in sometime way before all of this happened. Maybe the father convinced CPS the child was lying, and punished the child. When abused children reach out to someone for help and are busted for it by the abuser, the abuse gets worse. Of course, this is just my opinion.

[MoonFlwr]

Hi

I saw someone post that they heard the child speaking. Does someone have an easily accessible link to that?

TIA if you do :)

[Kether]

Hi

I saw someone post that they heard the child speaking. Does someone have an easily accessible link to that?

TIA if you do :)

The police interview is on video at AZfamily.com

[justaguy]

This reminds me of Cody Posey's case.

The fact his paternal grandmother knew something like this would happen because "they were too hard on the boy" implies punishment was excessive. The repeated "spankings" seemingly caused more emotional than physical damage for this boy to keep a record of them, and they must have occurred quite frequently for the spankings to reach 1,000 in number.

IMO

paula, i was just thinking of that same case. i ...hate these juvenile cases, even when the subject is clearly guilty. so much loss.

[PensiveOne]

I keep trying to understand what happened, and maybe nobody will ever know the whole story. There are so many unanswered questions. One thing that is really bugging me is why would he or who ever did this lure Tim to the house to shoot him? If it was the boy and he had already killed his father, he could have simply gone out the back door since Tim evidently had not seen or heard a thing. So he wasn't a witness, yet. However, if someone "needed" to go out the front door, didn't know about the back door or simply wanted to kill Tim, that would make more sense.

[LisaM22]

if an adult had the mind of an eight year old we would find them insane - this is such a sad case :rose:

[LisaM22]

You have him Guilty before you even hear the evidence?

From the abuse this boy took, he could of been the one that ended up dead.

It happens everyday.
Mom's boyfriend indicted for death of 3 year-old girl

08:11 PM Mountain Standard Time on Wednesday, November 26, 2008

http://www.azfamily.com/news/homepagetopstory/stories/avondale-local-news-111808-child-death.1c5e79404.html

I think some steps see the child as a link to their partners ex and they get jealous of time their partner spends with the child sadly, these people should not marry people with children - jmho

[secrets]

Hi, first time poster here.
I don't have much time at the moment, so few quick words.
Since there is no motive presented for the child to kill the father and tenant, maybe this gossip in the news is an attempt by the pros to establish motive (although ridiculous at the moment, we will see what he has to substantiate this rambling). After first saying the child was not abused, they see their mistake of lack of motive, so this shows up???
For the moment they can play it as they wish, swaying and confusing the public, and trying to reduce the support for the boy. Very dirty game, more adequate for catching hardcore criminal, not small children.
Ok, more later. I hope the defense layer is good.
One more note, maybe this is also tactic to force them take the plea?

[bkwits]

I have been waiting for someone to bring up him being able to shoot 2 grown men with a single shot 22. He would have had to get off the first shots to each man that left them unable to move before he could reload the other 2 times. It just make no sense to me at all.

LE is saying that the dad was shot four times and Tim was shot 6 times. That means that the child would have had to load 10 times. There were no unspent shells on the floor or ground, so the child would have to load, aim, shoot, reload, aim, shoot ten times without dropping a single shell. Seems unlikely.IMO

[book]

Hi, first time poster here.
I don't have much time at the moment, so few quick words.
Since there is no motive presented for the child to kill the father and tenant, maybe this gossip in the news is an attempt by the pros to establish motive (although ridiculous at the moment, we will see what he has to substantiate this rambling). After first saying the child was not abused, they see their mistake of lack of motive, so this shows up???
For the moment they can play it as they wish, swaying and confusing the public, and trying to reduce the support for the boy. Very dirty game, more adequate for catching hardcore criminal, not small children.
Ok, more later. I hope the defense layer is good.
One more note, maybe this is also tactic to force them take the plea?

Great post and thoughts for a first time poster. :beer: ITA

[Justice_Dawg]

Exactly, that is what happened to my husband's son. The new BF abused him to death. That is why it rubbed me the wrong way to hear the the step mom was spanking him but I guess perhaps, she figured if she did it, it wouldn't be as bad as if his father did it. :confused:

The boys Stepmom has only been around for 2 yrs. (she is 24 yrs old) The boys Mom left 6 yrs ago.

What was the boys life like in between these years? I think the GM knows.. I hope she tells.

I knew this would hit you hard, sorry.
I read your website last summer. It Broke my heart.

[book]

This reminds me of Cody Posey's case.

The fact his paternal grandmother knew something like this would happen because "they were too hard on the boy" implies punishment was excessive. The repeated "spankings" seemingly caused more emotional than physical damage for this boy to keep a record of them, and they must have occurred quite frequently for the spankings to reach 1,000 in number.

IMO

Yep! And because of the nice people on these boards writing letters, signing petition's and forming rallies Cody's case could have ended up different.

IMO when a child is abused for years and the adults in his life do nothing sometimes they snap and don't know any other way out.

I write to a young man that at age 15 killed his mother and stepfather. From the age of 4 he was sexually, mentally and physically abused by the SF. His mother, father, friends, family, teachers and CPS knew and did nothing.

He was tried and sentenced as an adult. When he was placed in prison he said, 'for the first time in my life I felt safe.'

[Justice_Dawg]

ITA! something stinks to high heaven in that family and it is not the little boy. When i read the grandmothers remarks i was horrified. This is a child and she was acting as if he was a rabid dog.

Something else that bothers me. How in the world was it the step mom that dad had "do the spankings". That is bizarre. I know there are a lot of step moms here, can you imagine a situation where you join the "family" of dad and son and are the one to carry out corporal punishment? Talk about weird. I think the dad liked to watch his son get beaten, or something worse. Add to that 1000 are the limit omg. If he kept a tally he knows how to count so it wasnt as if he made it up out of whole cloth.

Could this be why they dropped the murder charge on the dad? they knew there was evidence of abuse, 1000 spankings or anything even close..heck 10% of that is unbelievable.

The dad and the stepmom have something to hide. I am convinced of that, even though i am not convinced he killed the two. If he did, well he and the roomate are victims.


Maybe the father had really hurt the child at one point? Maybe stepmom only did the "it wasn't to bad of a crime" spankings?

I view this case through the eyes of a mother who never hit her children. My parents never hit me. So hearing this is hard for me to swallow.

I confront people who beat their childen in publc.
I can't imagine what goes on behind closed doors.

[bkwits]

Yep! And because of the nice people on these boards writing letters, signing petition's and forming rallies Cody's case could have ended up different.

IMO when a child is abused for years and the adults in his life do nothing sometimes they snap and don't know any other way out.

I write to a young man that at age 15 killed his mother and stepfather. From the age of 4 he was sexually, mentally and physically abused by the SF. His mother, father, friends, family, teachers and CPS knew and did nothing.

He was tried and sentenced as an adult. When he was placed in prison he said, 'for the first time in my life I felt safe.'

Oh, how tragic. I've had two friends who were sexually abused as youngsters. They were both messed up all of their lives. Both dead now, one at age 42, the other at 59.

It was refreshing to spend the day yesterday with a happy normal family. We did discuss the the young boy's case though. My son defended the father for not keeping his guns locked up. I pointed out that he (my son) keeps his guns locked up. He says it may be different in a small Arizona town. I'm not buying that.

[Justice_Dawg]

The paper on the video said someone heard LOUD pops.

http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/stories/StJohns-local-news-112708-more-court-docs-revelati.b34ef6b.html

[secrets]

Thank you book and January.:seeya:
I've been following this since the beginning and I am more of a reader than poster, but it is such a troubling case. I keep coming back to check for updates, I am really stressed. I don't see this boy as organized and methodical. After seeing his room, I don't think he tallied anything. It just don't fit. Also the paper with the " () Story Family" or whatever title it was, did anybody checked if it was a school assignment?
I'm sorry my thoughts at the moment are chaotic, my child is jumping around me, I can't concentrate. :chicken:
Hopefully, She will be asleep in an hour/two, and I will come back.

[Justice_Dawg]

Tim's Family spokesman:
Tim- one shot in the arm- 2 shots to the chest- 3 shots in the back of the head.

WoW.

[Kether]

Tim's Family spokesman:
Tim- one shot in the arm- 2 shots to the chest- 3 shots in the back of the head.

WoW.

Since he was shot in the chest and the back of the head, it appears that he may have been trying to get away. Why would he try to run away from a child with a gun that is a single shot? Wouldn't most charge toward the child in an effort to take the gun? I suppose, though, that natural instict would be to turn and run. Still, things just keep NOT adding up.

[Justice_Dawg]

I am going to keep piecing this together until lab results come back. Everyone is a suspect in my book. :biggrin:

From "Confession" Part Four
It is towards the bottom talking about step-mom:
----------------
Day before yesterday? Um, was your mom ever home when this happened?

No

Where was your mom?

I think she told you she was at the store

But was she there?

Yeah

She went there after what happened

----------------
Where is our transcriber?
Who said:
Yeah
and who said
She went there after what happened.

??

[Justice_Dawg]

Since he was shot in the chest and the back of the head, it appears that he may have been trying to get away. Why would he try to run away from a child with a gun that is a single shot? Wouldn't most charge toward the child in an effort to take the gun? I suppose, though, that natural instict would be to turn and run. Still, things just keep NOT adding up.


They say the child shot Tim from inside the front door. :rolleyes:
But... no casings found inside the door.
Bullet hole in screen door was shot from the outside.

Tim left his truck door open with a 9mm on the seat. :confused: Why?


It is NOT adding up. :no: I agree.

[Kether]

They say the child shot Tim from inside the front door. :rolleyes:
But... no casings found inside the door.
Bullet hole in screen door was shot from the outside.

Tim left his truck door open with a 9mm on the seat. :confused: Why?


It is NOT adding up. :no: I agree.

Do you think it possible the step mom and Tim's wife are involved in some way? Maybe the women had got word of the other women, drugs and booze. Just a theory. Tim's wife's statements about the phone call seems to what has solidified this case against this child. This is why I am looking at her closely. It would be nice if the they would release actual evidence instead of the ramblings of family and friends. What does the evidence say? Seems to me LE is going in every direction but that one way. Very unprofessonial, IMHO.

[secrets]

OK, I found several things on this tape strange, but in regards to your post, yes, he did say that she left after it happened, then she asks him something, he is confused, starts talking, and I think it is cut (the video) in while he speaks, than the video continues, I just can't hear them well, is there a better link for this video? It just seemed it is edited, I will have to check few more times.
Also, I would really like to see evidence that the boy shot.
When they asked him where did he put the gun after shooting, he sad the closet. When they asked him does he get in to trouble, he had to think (remember) for a few seconds, he did not say anything outright.
They were leading him about the shooting of his father. When they ask him where did he go when he came, he said nothing, than she suggest that he went to the bathroom, so he says yes , so than he sees his father and at that time went to get the gun etc etc. It seams he just makes up along the road what he thinks they want to hear, and when he is stuck, he waits for them to help him.
What do you think?




From "Confession" Part Four
It is towards the bottom talking about step-mom:
----------------
Day before yesterday? Um, was your mom ever home when this happened?

No

Where was your mom?

I think she told you she was at the store

But was she there?

Yeah

She went there after what happened

----------------
Where is our transcriber?
Who said:
Yeah
and who said
She went there after what happened.

??

[Justice_Dawg]

Do you think it possible the step mom and Tim's wife are involved in some way? Maybe the women had got word of the other women, drugs and booze. Just a theory. Tim's wife's statements about the phone call seems to what has solidified this case against this child. This is why I am looking at her closely. It would be nice if the they would release actual evidence instead of the ramblings of family and friends. What does the evidence say? Seems to me LE is going in every direction but that one way. Very unprofessonial, IMHO.

Step-mom, yes.

Tim's wife, No, unless she was in town and nobody knew it. Cell records will tell us that.
Tim's wife heard a "voice" calling him. (insists it was the boys voice, but has she ever heard the girlfriends voice?) My guess would be NO.
Tim was seeing another woman in town. Had asked her to marry him. Now you have to ask yourself, did she know Tim was aready married? Or did she just find out?

There is a chance Tim would say the boy was calling him...He surely wouldn't say to his wife on the phone "my girlfriend is calling for me"

Girlfriend- yes

Like I said before, everyone is a suspect in my book until we get more reports. :seeya:

[Justice_Dawg]

OK, I found several things on this tape strange, but in regards to your post, yes, he did say that she left after it happened, then she asks him something, he is confused, starts talking, and I think it is cut (the video) in while he speaks, than the video continues, I just can't hear them well, is there a better link for this video? It just seemed it is edited, I will have to check few more times.
Also, I would really like to see evidence that the boy shot.
When they asked him where did he put the gun after shooting, he sad the closet. When they asked him does he get in to trouble, he had to think (remember) for a few seconds, he did not say anything outright.
They were leading him about the shooting of his father. When they ask him where did he go when he came, he said nothing, than she suggest that he went to the bathroom, so he says yes , so than he sees his father and at that time went to get the gun etc etc. It seams he just makes up along the road what he thinks they want to hear, and when he is stuck, he waits for them to help him.
What do you think?

I get the same exact thing out of that "confession"

I can't wait for lab results. hammer

[bkwits]

Step-mom, yes.

Tim's wife, No, unless she was in town and nobody knew it. Cell records will tell us that.
Tim's wife heard a "voice" calling him. (insists it was the boys voice, but has she ever heard the girlfriends voice?) My guess would be NO.
Tim was seeing another woman in town. Had asked her to marry him. Now you have to ask yourself, did she know Tim was aready married? Or did she just find out?

There is a chance Tim would say the boy was calling him...He surely wouldn't say to his wife on the phone "my girlfriend is calling for me"

Girlfriend- yes

Like I said before, everyone is a suspect in my book until we get more reports. :seeya:

Hi JD, where is everyone getting the information about Tim's girlfriend? Also, I don't know if it was here on another forum that there were domestic abuse calls made to Romero's house. ???

[Justice_Dawg]

Hi JD, where is everyone getting the information about Tim's girlfriend? Also, I don't know if it was here on another forum that there were domestic abuse calls made to Romero's house. ???

They announced it on the news about the girlfriend.

The chief said they had been called to that home for DV and were checking the dates.

[Amy S.]

My adult son is visiting and he said that this case is all the talk in Flagstaff. Of course, they don't know any more than anyone else.

He said the consensus among his friends is that an 8 YO IS able to get off that many shots. He said with the shells in your waistband or lip of your pocket, you would shoot, release the spent shell and reload within a couple of seconds. His friends think that perhaps the boy and his dad could have even practiced that (for fun). They said that is what they used to do when knocking a tin can around, out near the reservation.

I am hoping that the fingerprints on the shells, will tell the story.

But, a good attorney could point out that the boy could have played with the shells, thus the fingerprints and an adult could have used the gun, with gloves on.

I hope a well known attorney comes forward for this boy. Without a good attorney Cody Posey might have received LIP.

[secrets]

I really dislike the officers questioning the boy. They are putting words in his mouth. The one that was out, and came in at the end, came only because he said he put the gun in the closet after the shooting, and we know where it was found. Than she asks him that maybe he put it on the cage?
It is hard to watch this alleged "confession" for me. I just can't see the boy did it. And it looks like they are abusing him.

[MoonFlwr]

I really dislike the officers questioning the boy. They are putting words in his mouth. The one that was out, and came in at the end, came only because he said he put the gun in the closet after the shooting, and we know where it was found. Than she asks him that maybe he put it on the cage?
It is hard to watch this alleged "confession" for me. I just can't see the boy did it. And it looks like they are abusing him.

Yes, I agree with you about putting words in his mouth!

This just made me think of at school where I work, when we are trying to sort out an incident with the little kids, his age, it is hard to piece everything together, because they keep giving half-hearted, uncertain answers and if you suggest something they look confused and sometimes end up agreeing with you!

[book]

Someone can start a petition at petition online.com or something and put the link here for many to sign. I would leave off the 'comment' line because there are people out there that would leave rude comments.

This could be sent to his lawyer or the judge.

Also start writing to the local newspapers showing outrage at this child's treatment from authorities.

[Hey Paula]

They say the child shot Tim from inside the front door. :rolleyes:
But... no casings found inside the door.
Bullet hole in screen door was shot from the outside.

Tim left his truck door open with a 9mm on the seat. :confused: Why?


It is NOT adding up. :no: I agree.

Unless Tim's body was moved, the position in which it was found (e.g, face up/face down) might prove helpful in determining where the shot was fired from. The trajectory of the bullet should also be a main consideration, especially if LE believes this child, who is much shorter than an adult, fired that gun.

Tim leaving his truck door open seems like he was in a hurry to rush out of the car, as if he were called to an emergency situation. However, leaving the gun on the seat makes it seem as though Tim didn't think he was in danger or that he needed to protect/defend anyone in the house.

IMO

[Hey Paula]

Has anyone thought about the possibility that Tim leaving the truck door open and the gun on the seat might mean that there was a gun pointed at his head by someone in a white car?

That's a real possibility too!

Personally, I think the trajectory of the bullet is important evidence, especially if this boy wasn't the shooter.

IMO

[Hey Paula]

I am also FUMING over the fact that law enforcement would even believe this boy before the ballistics reports and full autopsies were completed!!!! :flamemad:

Law enforcement has damaged this boy for the rest of his life even if he was just an innocent young boy who had the gruesome task of finding his father murdered. They have compounded this tragidy for the youngster one hundred fold. Just sickening!!! And the media are blood thirsty rabid dogs!!! I hope the entire law enforcement and judicial side of this story are sued into eternal debt!!! Doesn't any of them involved have a young child????

WTF is wrong with these people!! :flamemad::flamemad:

However this tragic case shakes out, it was handled horribly. Whether this child is the shooter or not, he is only 8 years old. By all accounts, from what's been published, he's not the "Bad Seed". In fact, it appears he was physically abused. LE knew about the frequent spankings he received, and should have had a child psychologist present when he was "interviewed".

IMO

[Justice_Dawg]

Has anyone thought about the possibility that Tim leaving the truck door open and the gun on the seat might mean that there was a gun pointed at his head by someone in a white car?

He had already been shot once. He bled up the driveway to the porch. Sure could have had a gun at his head.
The Porch is covered by trees.
That would make it harder for witnesses to see a murder.

[Justice_Dawg]

I am also FUMING over the fact that law enforcement would even believe this boy before the ballistics reports and full autopsies were completed!!!! :flamemad:

Law enforcement has damaged this boy for the rest of his life even if he was just an innocent young boy who had the gruesome task of finding his father murdered. They have compounded this tragidy for the youngster one hundred fold. Just sickening!!! And the media are blood thirsty rabid dogs!!! I hope the entire law enforcement and judicial side of this story are sued into eternal debt!!! Doesn't any of them involved have a young child????

WTF is wrong with these people!! :flamemad::flamemad:

It didn't help that the boys own grandmother told LE she knew the boy did it because he cuddled up to her that night.

[blue bird]

He had already been shot once. He bled up the driveway to the porch. Sure could have had a gun at his head.
The Porch is covered by trees.
That would make it harder for witnesses to see a murder.

Great scenario but then how and when does the phone call with the wife fit in? The suggestion that the voice she heard in the background was his GF's is intriguing, it would make sense that he would say it was the boy's voice.

[blue bird]

One other thought....

Being that Tim's wife claimed she heard the boy in the background when on the phone with Tim, wouldn't it have made sense for her to be subjected to a voice line up to identify the boy's voice?

Now, after releasing the tapes, she definitely knows his voice so it wouldn't do any good now.

[Justice_Dawg]

One other thought....

Being that Tim's wife claimed she heard the boy in the background when on the phone with Tim, wouldn't it have made sense for her to be subjected to a voice line up to identify the boy's voice?

Now, after releasing the tapes, she definitely knows his voice so it wouldn't do any good now.

They mention something about getting a voice specialist.
It is in one of those filings.

The wife may feel a bit different about things now. Finding out Wed. eve. that her husband had a girlfriend which he had just asked to marry him.
It must have come as a shock to her. :eek:

I do feel bad for Tim's daughters. :(

[blue bird]

Has anyone posted the news article about the dad's prior arrests yet?

The local news here is quite pathetic. Anyways, not as far I have seen.

[Justice_Dawg]

Yes apparently it was either him or Tim had TWO prior arrests. The dirt is surfacing now. To the person that sent me the link to the article, if you are uncomfortable posting the link, please send it to me again so everyone can see it as I mistakenly deleted the link. Thanks!:seeya:

I know Tim has been arrested for drugs. When was the dad arrested?

[Chelle]

They say the child shot Tim from inside the front door. :rolleyes:
But... no casings found inside the door.
Bullet hole in screen door was shot from the outside.

Tim left his truck door open with a 9mm on the seat. :confused: Why?


It is NOT adding up. :no: I agree.

ITA something's just not adding up with this whole case.

[Justice_Dawg]

This is out today:
St. Johns boy back in custody after furlough

According to police documents, Romero was shot four times, sustaining a total of six wounds. One of the shots was near his left elbow, two were to his head and the fourth bullet entered his back.

Romans was shot six times, sustaining eight wounds with one bullet hitting him in the arm, two in the chest and three in the back of his head. One of the bullets was discharged at close range.

http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/stories/stjohns-local-news-112808-double-murder.10aacb9d.html

Somebody wanted TIM Romans Dead. His murder was Overkill.

[Chelle]

This is out today:
St. Johns boy back in custody after furlough

According to police documents, Romero was shot four times, sustaining a total of six wounds. One of the shots was near his left elbow, two were to his head and the fourth bullet entered his back.

Romans was shot six times, sustaining eight wounds with one bullet hitting him in the arm, two in the chest and three in the back of his head. One of the bullets was discharged at close range.

http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/stories/stjohns-local-news-112808-double-murder.10aacb9d.html

Somebody wanted TIM Romans Dead. His murder was Overkill.

overkill because he had two extra wounds? i think both were overkill :(

[TxLady2]

ITA, if he was planning :rolleyes: on killing, he would have killed Dad and step-mom, not Dad and Tim. That would have at least made more sense.

Tim was shot more times. That makes me think someone wanted him dead worse.
--------------
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/11/27/20081127stjohns1127.html
The boy's father was shot four times, twice in the head. Romans was hit six times. The shot in one of his two head wounds was fired at close range.

Which his?

Gotta love media reporting. :rolleyes:

Since Romans' name was mentioned last, I assume that the "his" is understood to be him. It's kind of implied, if I remember my English grammar, but at my age that is questionable. ;)

I don't know what this world is coming to when they start prosecuting kids this young. I feel that this child is incapable of understanding the ramifications of murder... and if there was child abuse, well... I can see where it could happen. But, still.... I've know grown men who have given up and confessed to crimes they never committed under intense police interrogations... this kid was obviously just saying what he thought they wanted to hear. I don't care what the law says in that state.... no child of mine would have been subjected to that without me in the room, and a lawyer as well. THEY KNEW BETTER!!!

[cloe23]

The local news here is quite pathetic. Anyways, not as far I have seen.


Same here with my town, I am lost as to how to get to the facts.
Chickie's at pubic record are admittedly ready to retire and I only am requesting to get the goodies on 3 cases (maybe 4)News media is scarred to speak as they fear something??? Whimps jmo

[cloe23]

overkill because he had two extra wounds? i think both were overkill :(


Maybe overkill=bad aim? What is up the all the nick names the pro filers feel the need to attach to a suspect? IMO If a prep is in fear then that is what creates/explains overkill. (what a fear to have someone you shot come back at you and win.) Overkill IMO is lack of confidence./ Yes there may be passion but it is ruled by fear, jmo
:chicken:

[Details]

I stand corrected I thought he had shot his dad and uncle a total of 4 times 2 to dad and 2 to his uncle. Now it is even more unlikely that this child shot and killed anyone. Thanks for the correct information. Scape Goat comes to mind.Shooting each twice was the most they were able to get the kid to confess to - that may have been what you were thinking of.

His confession doesn't match the facts, the crime scene - but they still took it. His gun doesn't match well the wounds either - IIRC, there are multiple chest wounds in both men, and the father was found face down. OK, so that means the father was shot in the chest with a 22 (at pretty close range - from the top of the stairs when he was most of the way up, or from the landing in the middle of the stairs) - then remained standing, didn't charge the shooter, didn't fall down, as the single shot gun had the spent shell ejected, a new shell put in, and the second shot taken. 10 shots, with a reload needed between each. Shots taken at the father from both the top and middle of the stairs, and somehow the boy goes over him without getting blood all over him - remember short little 8 year old legs? And Tim, apparently was shot standing at his truck and ran inside - if it was the boy who did it, he ran towards the gunfire, not away. And the kid somehow still managed to reload and kill him.


Sounds from the filings like the prosecutors gave some stories to get to search his papers - and didn't find the supposed tally of spankings. Tim having some drug dealing history, if he did, makes this even more likely a case of something related to that - a competing drug dealer, revenge for a bad deal - or all those common reasons for murder - an affair, work troubles, other types of fights. Tim seems to have been the main target - more shots and shot outside by his truck ran away. I think the father was a secondary target, killed so he couldn't be a witness. And it sure worked.

[Details]

So - Tim was not only having an affair, but about to propose to the other woman - is that correct? How do we have that information? If it's true - I wonder if Tim's wife knew - whatever they say, often the wife does know.

The judge is going to have a fit when he next gets these attorneys in court - seems like everyone just leaked like mad - I went off for Thanksgiving, and when I come back, information about drug dealling, fights, affairs, spanking tallys, CPS visits, grandparents who think a boy needing cuddling means he did it, etc. is all out there.

[BobbisAngel]

Police in San Carlos, where Romans grew up, told St. Johns investigators that he had a prior drug arrest and was suspected of minor drug dealing.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/11/27/20081127stjohns1127.html
----------------
We have heard this before!!
-----------------
More from that link:
The search-warrant records contain the first public disclosure that the boy was in contact with CPS workers and may have endured regular corporal punishment. The records do not mention a diary of spankings.

Poor baby..


Could you please provide a link where it says the boy may have endured regular Corporal Punishment? I haven't seen that anywhere.

[Details]

Could you please provide a link where it says the boy may have endured regular Corporal Punishment? I haven't seen that anywhere.It's in the link you just quoted. First paragraph.

If he did it - which I'm far from convinced of - I'd expect to find abuse. Killings by children this age are so rare - nothing like this one in the last 18 years, since 1990 - and that one was to stop abuse.

But I still don't buy it.

[fairlaw]

None of us know the truth. But like so many others, I find it impossible to believe that an 8 year-old child could possibly have killed two grown men.

The whold reloading the weapon, and so much more just does not compute.

Obviously everything we think is based on pretty much wild speculation.

Even if that little boy somehow managed to kill these men, he is certainly not legally responsible. There isn't a standard on the face of the planet that holds an eight year old responsible.

[johnielee333]

This is a very sad case that was caused by the adults in this little boys life. When are the adults gonna stop destroying these young beautiful children ? What is wrong with people ? Cant they see what they do to their kids ? Why dont they care ? The adults in this boys life failed him & Now i hope the justice system doesnt. This young boy was a victim of abuse. He is a victim. I hope they dont continue to abuse him.
My Prayers Are With This Boy. :rose:

[book]

I was one of the people on this board that supported Cody and a few posters who wanted his head on a platter posted some terrible things to me. When we starting trowing away children it's a sad day in any state. I think Cody got the right punishment for his crimes and he will be able to live a normal life after he's 21 with help he has recieved. He had a great laywer and I hope no less for this young boy who is 6 years younger than Cody was. The difference here is I think this boy killed noone.

I don't think this child did either. If the reports are true about drug dealing etc., then I would put my money on a drug deal gone bad. IMO

[PensiveOne]

This is out today:
St. Johns boy back in custody after furlough

According to police documents, Romero was shot four times, sustaining a total of six wounds. One of the shots was near his left elbow, two were to his head and the fourth bullet entered his back.

Romans was shot six times, sustaining eight wounds with one bullet hitting him in the arm, two in the chest and three in the back of his head. One of the bullets was discharged at close range.

http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/stories/stjohns-local-news-112808-double-murder.10aacb9d.html

Somebody wanted TIM Romans Dead. His murder was Overkill.

Wow! Thanks, Justice. So Romero was shot in the back. That's a new revelation. One of the statements the GM had made was that when she was stating that she hoped he had died quickly the boy had told her he didn't because he had been shot in the chest. It sounds like all of Romero's wounds were from the back. So how did two of the shells end up above him? Unless the head wounds were sustained from above him and he was already down. I also remember that LE said one of his head wounds was from under his jaw going out toward the top of his head. Kind of hard to do that with a rifle...don't ya think?

The boy's "confession" story just gets further and further from the facts. Also, in his confession he says when he found his dad there was blood all over his face, meaning that he had already been shot in the head. None of this makes any sense to me.

JMO

[GentleBreeze]

This is out today:
St. Johns boy back in custody after furlough

According to police documents, Romero was shot four times, sustaining a total of six wounds. One of the shots was near his left elbow, two were to his head and the fourth bullet entered his back.

Romans was shot six times, sustaining eight wounds with one bullet hitting him in the arm, two in the chest and three in the back of his head. One of the bullets was discharged at close range.

http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/stories/stjohns-local-news-112808-double-murder.10aacb9d.html

Somebody wanted TIM Romans Dead. His murder was Overkill.

Thank you, DD.

It shows to me that Romero never knew what was coming as he headed up those stairs, most likely to his bedroom, to shed his construction gear for the day. There were two of the bullets that entered and exited the body sustaining two other injuries by hitting or grazing the body again.

I believe the first shot was to his back and then maybe to his elbow. When more information is released I think the shots to the head will also be to the back of the head. With one very close up where it left brain matter on the wall. I have read in the past that if the perpetrator is known to the victim they will not want to be facing them when they murder them.

I think because Romans was coming from a further distance away toward the home and a moving target is why he was shot more times.

It does show imo just how predatory these crimes were.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

The Saint John's police department would have to turn over any evidence of any past arrests concerning either Romans or Romero and give full disclosure.

What was Tim Romans and Vincent Romero arrested for in the St. John's jurisdiction?

[clara2]

If CPS were involved with this boy because of abuse before the crime
why was'nt this child removed from the home ?:confused:
and was his natural mother aware or alerted by CPS that her son was abused..
why would the mother /grandparents not taking any action to protect the child

the grandparents comments (if actually stated that way were ...
"If any 8-year-old boy is capable of doing this, it's (him).' (grandmother)

The grandfather then repeated, "If any 8-year-old was capable of doing this, (he) was"

if these people really thought their grandson was an evil child and capable of doing this horrific crime..my god what does that say about him? and them?

[GentleBreeze]

Wow! Thanks, Justice. So Romero was shot in the back. That's a new revelation. One of the statements the GM had made was that when she was stating that she hoped he had died quickly the boy had told her he didn't because he had been shot in the chest. It sounds like all of Romero's wounds were from the back. So how did two of the shells end up above him? Unless the head wounds were sustained from above him and he was already down. I also remember that LE said one of his head wounds was from under his jaw going out toward the top of his head. Kind of hard to do that with a rifle...don't ya think?

The boy's "confession" story just gets further and further from the facts. Also, in his confession he says when he found his dad there was blood all over his face, meaning that he had already been shot in the head. None of this makes any sense to me.

JMO

The part I highlighted just jumped out at me. I had not even taken that part into consideration. Thanks for bringing it into focus.

Yes, just how did that happen if the boy then says he had to shoot him in the head to end his suffering when according to the boy his dad's face was already covered in blood. Sure sounds like Romero had ALREADY received shots to the head.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

If CPS were involved with this boy because of abuse before the crime
why was'nt this child removed from the home ?:confused:
and was his natural mother aware or alerted by CPS that her son was abused..
why would the mother /grandparents not taking any action to protect the child

the grandparents comments (if actually stated that way were ...
"If any 8-year-old boy is capable of doing this, it's (him).' (grandmother)

The grandfather then repeated, "If any 8-year-old was capable of doing this, (he) was"

if these people really thought their grandson was an evil child and capable of doing this horrific crime..my god what does that say about him? and them?

I don't believe that CPS was involved with this boy beforehand. First they aren't going to just sit quietly by while a kid makes a threat against their parents. The Associated Press always validates their information with reputable sources and they said there were no complaints to AZ CPR about this child before this happened.

What happens though once he became held by the State in juvenile detention, they would automatically be brought in and they were along with their caseworkers. At the time they would step in, since he had no custodial parent at the time since the dead father had full custodial rights. Once the Judge ruled that the bio mom had custody when he was outside of the detention center CPR petitioned to withdraw. Many of the motions lists the CPR official. Those records are kept confidential unless a District Attorney request that their information be given in a criminal case. He requested that they be turned over.

Then they are bound by law to turn over anything they may have learned since the beginning of this case. This happens whether the minor is a victim or the defendant.

There are no hidden surprises for either the State or the defense as full disclosure is required from all parties.

imoo

[clara2]

I was mistaken in my last post..I thought I read where CPS was involved before.
but I do see that there were calls to police in the past...I wonder what they were about..maybe domestic fights with the parents?I guess we will have to wait on that information

I saw a bit of the mothers interview on a tv morning show..and I thought I heard the mother say she had joint custody..but I gather thats not true ,but the father had sole custody..hmmmmmm I find that odd...usually its the mother...

[Justice_Dawg]

Maybe overkill=bad aim? What is up the all the nick names the pro filers feel the need to attach to a suspect? IMO If a prep is in fear then that is what creates/explains overkill. (what a fear to have someone you shot come back at you and win.) Overkill IMO is lack of confidence./ Yes there may be passion but it is ruled by fear, jmo
:chicken:

Overkill= exceeding the amount needed/necessary to destroy an enemy.

[Justice_Dawg]

In the drug world, overkill is sending a message and has absolutely NOTHING to do with lack of confidence or fear. Passion doesn't even enter the equation. Bad aim? At close range like that, I think not. Those bullets were intended to land exactly as they did. I have a strong feeling Tim was shot in the arm by an adult who was well versed with handling guns and not in any way shape or form "afraid". The bullet in his arm was meant to "pursuade" him to cooperate. He bled from the car into the house.

ITA! :seeya:

[Kara]

Any time that there is a case or investigation with Child Protective Services, those records are confidential and are not released without a Court Order because these are minors under the age of 18. Nothing is "public record". My question is how is the media getting their information about "no prior reports or investigations to CPS" who exactly gave them a Court Order to look into that?

Something smells fishy here.
If you go back to the link supplied in the first post of this thread you will see where it was reported that CPS had been involved and the reported "tally sheet" was used in support of obtaining a search warrant.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/11/26/20081126stjohns-boy1126-ON.html

A search affidavit by Sgt. Lucas Rodriguez says the child "is believed to have made ledgers and or communicated in the form of writings about his intentions. (The boy) told a CPS . . . worker that when he reached one thousand spankings . . . that would be his limit. (The boy) kept a tally of his spankings on a piece of paper."

[BobbisAngel]

Yes apparently it was either him or Tim had TWO prior arrests. The dirt is surfacing now. To the person that sent me the link to the article, if you are uncomfortable posting the link, please send it to me again so everyone can see it as I mistakenly deleted the link. Thanks!:seeya:


I believe that it was said that Tim had a prior arrest and that they thought he had sold drugs on a small scale. It didn't say when this was so it could have been recently or years ago. It didn't say anything about the dad having a record or any suspicious behavior.

It is my understanding from another forum that the problem at work was over a female worker and keys to a forklift. It was said that Tim was a foreman and the dad was a supervisor at the plant. Nothing said about trouble at a bar.

[BobbisAngel]

It's in the link you just quoted. First paragraph.

If he did it - which I'm far from convinced of - I'd expect to find abuse. Killings by children this age are so rare - nothing like this one in the last 18 years, since 1990 - and that one was to stop abuse.

But I still don't buy it.


Thanks. I swear I'm going blind! Do they consider a few swats corporal punishment I wonder? There is a big difference in spanking a child and beating them.

I guess we will just have to wait until all of the evidence is back and it is made public. I'm sure that they are checking out everything...gun and bullets used....height of shooter and all of that stuff.

In all honesty I just can't see anyone setting up an 8 year old boy for two murders. I doubt that anyone wants this boy to be guilty. I can see LE trying to get an adult to admit to something that he/she might not have done but not a little kid. I'll bet most of LE have kids or at least grandkids or nephews and they probably feel for this little guy. I just don't think that they are going to frame this little boy if they don't have absolute proof that he is guilty. If they did try and frame him a defense attorney would chew the case right up with all kinds of experts so that really wouldn't be to smart.

[Kether]

He had already been shot once. He bled up the driveway to the porch. Sure could have had a gun at his head.
The Porch is covered by trees.
That would make it harder for witnesses to see a murder.

This is suppose to be the same time that Tim was on the phone with his wife. He is walking to the door and is bleeding and doesn't tell his wife? Yeah, it sounds like a gun was pointed at him. Has any article mentioned whether she called him or he called her?

[GentleBreeze]

If you go back to the link supplied in the first post of this thread you will see where it was reported that CPS had been involved and the reported "tally sheet" was used in support of obtaining a search warrant.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/11/26/20081126stjohns-boy1126-ON.html

Exactly. The knowledge of the threats against his parent that he had told to CPS workers about his spanking limit would give LE probable cause to get another search warrant to retrieve any such ledgers or records that supported what he had told the caseworkers.

imoo

[Kether]

Thanks. I swear I'm going blind! Do they consider a few swats corporal punishment I wonder? There is a big difference in spanking a child and beating them.

I guess we will just have to wait until all of the evidence is back and it is made public. I'm sure that they are checking out everything...gun and bullets used....height of shooter and all of that stuff.

In all honesty I just can't see anyone setting up an 8 year old boy for two murders. I doubt that anyone wants this boy to be guilty. I can see LE trying to get an adult to admit to something that he/she might not have done but not a little kid. I'll bet most of LE have kids or at least grandkids or nephews and they probably feel for this little guy. I just don't think that they are going to frame this little boy if they don't have absolute proof that he is guilty. If they did try and frame him a defense attorney would chew the case right up with all kinds of experts so that really wouldn't be to smart.

I don't think anyone set up this child. I think the police know who did this and are covering up for them. The odds of the police knowing or even being related to the perp are fair, IMHO. This is a small town.

[GentleBreeze]

This is suppose to be the same time that Tim was on the phone with his wife. He is walking to the door and is bleeding and doesn't tell his wife? Yeah, it sounds like a gun was pointed at him. Has any article mentioned whether she called him or he called her?

She said he called her when he got home from work everyday. He was not on the phone when shot. He hung up saying he had to go see what the boy wanted.

[GentleBreeze]

I don't think anyone set up this child. I think the police know who did this and are covering up for them. The odds of the police knowing or even being related to the perp are fair, IMHO. This is a small town.


It doesn't matter how small this town is. The investigation includes local, state and federal agencies.

imoo

[Kether]

Exactly. The knowledge of the threats against his parent that he had told to CPS workers about about his spanking limit would give LE probable cause to get another search warrant to retrieve any such ledgers or records that supported what he had told the caseworkers.

imoo

IIRC, the article stated that the child said 1000 spankings would be his limit. He doesn't say he will kill his father or even threaten his father according to what little has been released. Reaching his limit could mean anything. He could run away or move in with someone else, maybe his mother and so on. Many things can look sinister in hindsight. That doesn't make it true.

[secrets]

Hi
I would like to think that they are checking all evidence, but shouldn't they have waited for the evidence before they locked the child then? The way this has been handled from the start is not encouraging. believe that you must have a good experience with LE, which is great, and that is way you wait to prove the boys innocence. I hope that majority of LE anywhere is certainly on the side of the law, but the number of cases where that was not the case is overwhelming IMO.
The LE has not convinced me so far the boy is guilty. I am waiting for the evidence. I hope an independent expert is brought, I just don't see the boy's interests are protected here, considering his age. So far, he's been dragged through the mud by LE and media in AZ.
I apologize for any spelling/grammar mistakes, English is not my mothers thong.

[GentleBreeze]

IIRC, the article stated that the child said 1000 spankings would be his limit. He doesn't say he will kill his father or even threaten his father according to what little has been released. Reaching his limit could mean anything. He could run away or move in with someone else, maybe his mother and so on. Many things can look sinister in hindsight. That doesn't make it true.

He said it would be his last. Remember we are only given snippets of his conversation. There was more said than that imo. Enough for LE to go back and get a search warrant to retrieve any evidence there that may support what he told the caseworker.

imoo

[Kether]

She said he called her when he got home from work everyday. He was not on the phone when shot. He hung up saying he had to go see what the boy wanted.

Let's say the blood trail isn't Tim's. Don't you think he would have mentioned that while on the phone? If the evidence prove it is Tim's blood, then why didn't he mention that he was bleeding to his wife? And yes, the article stated that he called everyday when he got home from work. I am not wondering about what he does everyday. I want to know if he called her that day, there is a difference. We can not assume anything.

[GentleBreeze]

Hi
I would like to think that they are checking all evidence, but shouldn't they have waited for the evidence before they locked the child then? The way this has been handled from the start is not encouraging. believe that you must have a good experience with LE, which is great, and that is way you wait to prove the boys innocence. I hope that majority of LE anywhere is certainly on the side of the law, but the number of cases where that was not the case is overwhelming IMO.
The LE has not convinced me so far the boy is guilty. I am waiting for the evidence. I hope an independent expert is brought, I just don't see the boy's interests are protected here, considering his age. So far, he's been dragged through the mud by LE and media in AZ.
I apologize for any spelling/grammar mistakes, English is not my mothers thong.

I am not sure what you mean when you say they should have waited for the evidence. All they have to have at the time of an arrest is to prove probable cause and the Judge agreed that probable cause had been met that he did do what he is accused of. Once it goes to trial is when the evidence will be entered and the threshold goes up to beyond a reasonable doubt. Most of the evidence takes weeks to come back. That is standard in any case, not just this one. But LE doesnt wait until all the evidence is back. I have seen cases that they are still getting forensic testing done months after an arrest.

imoo

[Kether]

It doesn't matter how small this town is. The investigation includes local, state and federal agencies.

imoo

Local authorities responded first, and anyone that researches cases knows, that is the most important phase of the investigation. Many things can be compromised or changed. It can and does happen. Also, LE being alone with this child for such a long time without representation is very questionable. There is no excuse for doing so, what was the point? Scapegoat, maybe? If they really believed this child was capable of murder and did this crime, then they should have went by the book. Maybe then, I wouldn't question everything they have done.

[JD1974]

Gag has been broken, big time. :cuss:

Defense to the rescue:

In an affidavit for a search warrant, Sgt. Lucas Rodriguez writes that the boy tallied the spankings on a piece of paper.

The boy's defense attorney, Benjamin Brewer, said Wednesday that the boy's grandmother likely was stressed and that he plans to interview her.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iG_nB7rdOr3TiaL5ph3YDR5qNNTAD94MVTPG0

I saw on one link that there was blood on one of the papers, I'll go get it. :chicken:



1,000 spankings by the age of 8...something is just so wrong with that. My daughter is 17 and I can count on one hand how many time I spanked my daughter...

[GentleBreeze]

Let's say the blood trail isn't Tim's. Don't you think he would have mentioned that while on the phone? If the evidence prove it is Tim's blood, then why didn't he mention that he was bleeding to his wife? And yes, the article stated that he called everyday when he got home from work. I am not wondering about what he does everyday. I want to know if he called her that day, there is a difference. We can not assume anything.

No I guess we cant although I don't see what there is to say it is not true. While we do not know.......LE does and they by now have Tim's cell phone records and if he called his wife on her cell phone they will have that too. I think they will tie that time into when the neighbors heard the shots.

It wasnt a steady trail.......more like blood here... blood there. It was most likely from his arm wound.

I don't think he was bleeding or shot at the time when he talked to his wife.

imoo

[Kether]

Hi
I would like to think that they are checking all evidence, but shouldn't they have waited for the evidence before they locked the child then? The way this has been handled from the start is not encouraging. believe that you must have a good experience with LE, which is great, and that is way you wait to prove the boys innocence. I hope that majority of LE anywhere is certainly on the side of the law, but the number of cases where that was not the case is overwhelming IMO.
The LE has not convinced me so far the boy is guilty. I am waiting for the evidence. I hope an independent expert is brought, I just don't see the boy's interests are protected here, considering his age. So far, he's been dragged through the mud by LE and media in AZ.
I apologize for any spelling/grammar mistakes, English is not my mothers thong.

This is why I am questioning the intent of LE as well. They immediately went after this child, BEFORE THE EVIDENCE CAME IN. That sends off a huge red flag, IMHO. Why are they so eager to place blame on a child without the evidence to back it up? No one in their right mind would think of charging an 8 year old child without looking at the forensics. Yet, this is what happened.

[Kether]

No I guess we cant although I don't see what there is to say it is not true. While we do not know.......LE does and they by now have Tim's cell phone records and if he called his wife on her cell phone they will have that too. I think they will tie that time into when the neighbors heard the shots.

It wasnt a steady trail.......more like blood here... blood there. It was most likely from his arm wound.

I don't think he was bleeding or shot at the time when he talked to his wife.

imoo

Tim's wife stated she heard the boy's voice telling him to come inside. You don't think the blood trail was there or Tim was shot while on the phone with his wife. Then that would mean Tim went back out to the truck then got shot and made his way back to the front door of the home. That is, of course, if the blood trail belonged to Tim.

[GentleBreeze]

Local authorities responded first, and anyone that researches cases knows, that is the most important phase of the investigation. Many things can be compromised or changed. It can and does happen. Also, LE being alone with this child for such a long time without representation is very questionable. There is no excuse for doing so, what was the point? Scapegoat, maybe? If they really believed this child was capable of murder and did this crime, then they should have went by the book. Maybe then, I wouldn't question everything they have done.


The point was the stepmother gave them permission. They thought he was a victim and had been in the home when the crimes occurred. They were even making plans for heightened safety measures in case he named the murderer. They were very fearful for his safety. They had no idea at the time he wasn't a witness at all but the perpetrator.

LE will question children who may be victims and don't want another family member in the room where it may put pressure on the child to keep secret what they may know or have seen.

But I do agree when it became apparent he was involved they should have stopped immediately.

imoo

[book]

I was mistaken in my last post..I thought I read where CPS was involved before.
but I do see that there were calls to police in the past...I wonder what they were about..maybe domestic fights with the parents?I guess we will have to wait on that information

I saw a bit of the mothers interview on a tv morning show..and I thought I heard the mother say she had joint custody..but I gather thats not true ,but the father had sole custody..hmmmmmm I find that odd...usually its the mother...

Why didn't the police contact CPS? It's their job if they suspect abuse.

[Kether]

1,000 spankings by the age of 8...something is just so wrong with that. My daughter is 17 and I can count on one hand how many time I spanked my daughter...

I know. I can count on one hand how many times I have spanked my children. 1,000 spankings for an 8 year old boy that was never in trouble at school or with the law. :mad:

[JD1974]

It seems the stepmother gave permission for the interview with police. Does she have that right?

"Detectives were given permission by his stepmother to speak to the child without an adult..."

http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/stories/StJohns-local-news-112708-more-court-docs-revelati.b34ef6b.html


You would think not, considering his mother had joint custody which means his mother has legal custody of him. Not his step-mother.

[GentleBreeze]

Tim's wife stated she heard the boy's voice telling him to come inside. You don't think the blood trail was there or Tim was shot while on the phone with his wife. Then that would mean Tim went back out to the truck then got shot and made his way back to the front door of the home. That is, of course, if the blood trail belonged to Tim.

I am not sure what you are telling me, Kether.

But no, I don't think the blood trail was there before he was killed. I do believe the sporadic trail of blood belonged to Tim. I don't think Tim was on the phone with his wife at the time he was first shot.

I am not following you about Tim going back to the truck? Sorry. Why would he have to go back to the truck when he could have been shot after making a few steps away from the truck as he proceed toward the house.:confused:

imoo

[Kether]

The point was the stepmother gave them permission. They thought he was a victim and had been in the home when the crimes occurred. They were even making plans for heightened safety measures in case he named the murderer. They were very fearful for his safety. They had no idea at the time he wasn't a witness at all but the perpetrator.

LE will question children who may be victims and don't want another family member in the room where it may put pressure on the child to keep secret what they may know or have seen.

But I do agree when it became apparent he was involved they should have stopped immediately.

imoo

The grandmother's statements baffle me. She lets them question the boy because she thinks he may know the identification of the killer. Then she turns right around and says if any kid could do this it would be him. Sooooooo, she didn't suspect him until AFTER police questioned him? The woman is a walking contradition, IMHO. She didn't suspect him in the beginning? I have so many questions and very little answers.

[GentleBreeze]

You would think not, considering his mother had joint custody which means his mother has legal custody of him. Not his step-mother.

Since the deceased father had physical custody of the child and the bio mother was in another state, I do believe the stepmother did have permission for them to interview him. At the time he was considered an eye witness and a victim.

imoo

[Kether]

The grandmother's statements baffle me. She lets them question the boy because she thinks he may know the identification of the killer. Then she turns right around and says if any kid could do this it would be him. Sooooooo, she didn't suspect him until AFTER police questioned him? The woman is a walking contradition, IMHO. She didn't suspect him in the beginning? I have so many questions and very little answers.


Ugh, I am now talking to myself. I needed to correct this post. I forgot to mention the stepmother. I would think she would be a suspect, everyone is until they are eliminated. So, how could she give permission for this child, when this isn't her child? Is this even legal?

[GentleBreeze]

The grandmother's statements baffle me. She lets them question the boy because she thinks he may know the identification of the killer. Then she turns right around and says if any kid could do this it would be him. Sooooooo, she didn't suspect him until AFTER police questioned him? The woman is a walking con tradition, IMHO. She didn't suspect him in the beginning? I have so many questions and very little answers.

I don't know if the grandmother was even there when the stepmother gave her permission that he could be interviewed to see what he had seen or heard. I do know that the grandmother told LE what the boy had said to her.

I do remember LE said he showed no emotion except when his stepmother arrived and he ran to her, hugged her and cried.

It seems the grandmother does think this child is capable of doing this. I can't say why she feels that way, I don't know this little boy.

imoo

[Kether]

Since the deceased father had physical custody of the child and the bio mother was in another state, I do believe the stepmother did have permission for them to interview him. At the time he was considered an eye witness and a victim.

imoo

Well, I know that is what happened, but is it legal?

[bkwits]

I am not sure what you mean when you say they should have waited for the evidence. All they have to have at the time of an arrest is to prove probable cause and the Judge agreed that probable cause had been met that he did do what he is accused of. Once it goes to trial is when the evidence will be entered and the threshold goes up to beyond a reasonable doubt. Most of the evidence takes weeks to come back. That is standard in any case, not just this one. But LE doesnt wait until all the evidence is back. I have seen cases that they are still getting forensic testing done months after an arrest.

imoo

Please note the Ryan Harris rape and murder case 10 years ago in Chicago. LE tried to pin the murder on two little boys, 7 and 8 years old, who were taken into custody. They got the boys to confess giving the children details that "only LE had." This was done even though it was obvious from the beginning that the 11 year old had been sexually molested.

Guess what, they found semen (boys this young do not produce semen). DNA proved the rapist/murderer to be Floyd Durr who had sexually assualted three other females, one a 5 year-old.

The two young boys had nothing to do with her assault or murder.

[bkwits]

Ugh, I am now talking to myself. I needed to correct this post. I forgot to mention the stepmother. I would think she would be a suspect, everyone is until they are eliminated. So, how could she give permission for this child, when this isn't her child? Is this even legal?


IMHO, the confession will never be used in court.

[Kether]

Please note the Ryan Harris rape and murder case 10 years ago in Chicago. LE tried to pin the murder on two little boys, 7 and 8 years old, who were taken into custody. They got the boys to confess giving the children details that "only LE had." This was done even though it was obvious from the beginning that the 11 year old had been sexually molested.

Guess what, they found semen (boys this young do not produce semen). DNA proved the rapist/murderer to be Floyd Durr who had sexually assualted three other females, one a 5 year-old.

The two young boys had nothing to do with her assault or murder.

:flamemad:

[Kether]

IMHO, the confession will never be used in court.

I hope not. If this child commited the crime, then let the evidence prove it. I am not convinced he did this. It is too bad LE didn't have this mind set.

[secrets]

Don't you think that it is wrong to put an 8 year old child in prison on probable cause? What do we do if it turns out he did not do that? What will be the consequences for that child? They should have different means and ways to deal with this situations. Adult criminals are being bailed, even repeat criminals. But this child? Oh, we must put him in prison and trow away the key, because he could be guilty. And maybe some forensics is done months after the arrest, but not all, don' you think also?

I am not sure what you mean when you say they should have waited for the evidence. All they have to have at the time of an arrest is to prove probable cause and the Judge agreed that probable cause had been met that he did do what he is accused of. Once it goes to trial is when the evidence will be entered and the threshold goes up to beyond a reasonable doubt. Most of the evidence takes weeks to come back. That is standard in any case, not just this one. But LE doesnt wait until all the evidence is back. I have seen cases that they are still getting forensic testing done months after an arrest.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Please note the Ryan Harris rape and murder case 10 years ago in Chicago. LE tried to pin the murder on two little boys, 7 and 8 years old, who were taken into custody. They got the boys to confess giving the children details that "only LE had." This was done even though it was obvious from the beginning that the 11 year old had been sexually molested.

Guess what, they found semen (boys this young do not produce semen). DNA proved the rapist/murderer to be Floyd Durr who had sexually assaulted three other females, one a 5 year-old.

The two young boys had nothing to do with her assault or murder.

But we have nothing that says this is the case here. We haven't seen the evidence released in this one. That will be brought out at the trial, if there is one.

I don't think LE is trying to stick it to an 8 year old in this case though.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Don't you think that it is wrong to put an 8 year old child in prison on probable cause? What do we do if it turns out he did not do that? What will be the consequences for that child? They should have different means and ways to deal with this situations. Adult criminals are being bailed, even repeat criminals. But this child? Oh, we must put him in prison and trow away the key, because he could be guilty. And maybe some forensics is done months after the arrest, but not all, don' you think also?


We have a justice system here, secrets. This is how it is done. :shrug:

Oh I think a lot of forensic testing will be done and is being done.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

IMHO, the confession will never be used in court.

I am not really sure about that. From what I have read the rules of evidence is much different than in an adult court. I think this Judge will be the sitting Judge and he has already seen the confession in its entirety anyway.

If it is tossed which I think it should be it will not deter this case. It will not be needed in the end. JMO

[GentleBreeze]

Well, I know that is what happened, but is it legal?


I don't know. Maybe LE contacted the Judge for advice due to the situation.:shrug:

[Kether]

I am not sure what you are telling me, Kether.

But no, I don't think the blood trail was there before he was killed. I do believe the sporadic trail of blood belonged to Tim. I don't think Tim was on the phone with his wife at the time he was first shot.

I am not following you about Tim going back to the truck? Sorry. Why would he have to go back to the truck when he could have been shot after making a few steps away from the truck as he proceed toward the house.:confused:

imoo

Wasn't Tim found on the front porch? You think he would have continued on his way to the front porch after being shot from that direction? Then after making his way to the front porch he was shot in the back of the head? I guess, he could have been down on the porch and then shot in the back of the head. Only evidence showing the direction and projections of the bullet will prove any of this.

[secrets]

What is your point here, I hope your not implying here I don't know what that is?
I understand that before they lock somebody up, they should check all the leads. Did they do it? Did they check if there was a white car? Did they check his prints? Did they check the stepmom? The wife? I don't see they checked anything, they immediately decided there was no white car, etc. It tells me they decided the boy is guilty from the start.

We have a justice system here, secrets. This is how it is done. :shrug:

Oh I think a lot of forensic testing will be done and is being done.

imoo

[Kether]

I don't know. Maybe LE contacted the Judge for advice due to the situation.:shrug:

They had time to consult a judge, and didn't have time to find a biological guardian to be present? Okie dokie.

[Kether]

What is your point here, I hope your not implying here I don't know what that is?
I understand that before they lock somebody up, they should check all the leads. Did they do it? Did they check if there was a white car? Did they check his prints? Did they check the stepmom? The wife? I don't see they checked anything, they immediately decided there was no white car, etc. It tells me they decided the boy is guilty from the start.

Yep, and I think the reason they thought that was because of the something the step mother told them. You know, the same one that gave them permission to speak to the child. :mad:

[JD1974]

Since the deceased father had physical custody of the child and the bio mother was in another state, I do believe the stepmother did have permission for them to interview him. At the time he was considered an eye witness and a victim.

imoo


So because you live in another state than your child, a person who is in no way related to said child can give permission for the child to be interviewed? Once the little boys father died that severed all legal ties to the step-mother unless she adopted him, which is not the case.

[bkwits]

But we have nothing that says this is the case here. We haven't seen the evidence released in this one. That will be brought out at the trial, if there is one.

I don't think LE is trying to stick it to an 8 year old in this case though.

imoo

In both cases, it seems a rush to judgment. I think Chicago LE thought the two little boys did, but they worked backwards instead of forwards. They tried to make facts fit their assumptions.

Even as brutal as that was, the little boys were treated more humanely than the boy in this case. They were kept in a hospital, then released to their parents on home confinement.

I don't know if this child killed these two men. I have doubts. The "confession" is worthless IMO. It points as much to his innocence as to his guilt.

[secrets]

@Kether
Yes, strange thing, so far we have only heard of his loving relationship with his father, we never heard that the step mother was doing things with him, was good to him in this or that way ...?

Another thing, regarding the phone call between Tim Romans and his wife, he could easily said to her he must go the boy (or somebody) was calling him, just to cut short the phone call, if the divorce rumor is true. Or somebody else came, but he did not want to tell her who?

[Kether]

So because you live in another state than your child, a person who is in no way related to said child can give permission for the child to be interviewed? Once the little boys father died that severed all legal ties to the step-mother unless she adopted him, which is not the case.

Exactly! If I were the biological mother I would be having a shouting match with the step mom and I would also be suing the police department. NO one thought about the laws and the rights of this child. If they want to question him, why couldn't they do it through the proper channels? Why not wait and MAKE DANG SURE that everything is being done legally and with total responsibility? It is almost as if the step mom was pushing LE to do this before the bio mother could get there. Of couse, JMHO.

[JD1974]

@Kether
Yes, strange thing, so far we have only heard of his loving relationship with his father, we never heard that the step mother was doing things with him, was good to him in this or that way ...?

Another thing, regarding the phone call between Tim Romans and his wife, he could easily said to her he must go the boy (or somebody) was calling him, just to cut short the phone call, if the divorce rumor is true. Or somebody else came, but he did not want to tell her who?

I just can't wrap my brain around someone being shot then going towards where the shots were fired instead of going in the opposite direction. Tim had to know the shots were coming from around the house, if he was shot in the front first he knew they were coming toward the way he was facing, same thing for being shot in the back.

[bkwits]

If they had probable cause to hold him because of Mrs. Romans statements about the phone call and/or other evidence, why did they have to quickly lead him into a confession? Which,, IMO, is just what they did.

[bkwits]

I just can't wrap my brain around someone being shot then going towards where the shots were fired instead of going in the opposite direction. Tim had to know the shots were coming from around the house, if he was shot in the front first he knew they were coming toward the way he was facing, same thing for being shot in the back.


I am having trouble with that also. :confused:

[JD1974]

Exactly! If I were the biological mother I would be having a shouting match with the step mom and I would also be suing the police department. NO one thought about the laws and the rights of this child. If they want to question him, why couldn't they do it through the proper channels? Why not wait and MAKE DANG SURE that everything is being done legally and with total responsibility? It is almost as if the step mom was pushing LE to do this before the bio mother could get there. Of couse, JMHO.


I know and I always think about this when it comes to a step-parent, if the little boys dad had divorced the step-mom would she have to support the little boy NO because legally she has no connection to him. Same thing applies if the parent dies, the step-parent has no legal obligation to the child.

[JD1974]

I am having trouble with that also. :confused:


This is the weirdest thing about this case. Everyone has the fight or flee, he was a ways from the house WHY would he intentionally go towards the shots? Tim has a cell phone, there is a vehicle parked at the house, why doesn't he take cover and call 911???

[secrets]

So, the shooter is inside the house, maybe surprised, maybe not. He shoots Vincent Romero from the back? than goes out the back door, around the house, shoots Tim Romans front, Tim runs to the house for cover, shooter runs to him shoots him 3 more times? Last one is close. He disposed the shells at that point. Then, the problem comes with the different shell, so another person is there, he shoots Tim once, or the child goes with the gun and shoots the car running?

I just can't wrap my brain around someone being shot then going towards where the shots were fired instead of going in the opposite direction. Tim had to know the shots were coming from around the house, if he was shot in the front first he knew they were coming toward the way he was facing, same thing for being shot in the back.

[Kether]

@Kether
Yes, strange thing, so far we have only heard of his loving relationship with his father, we never heard that the step mother was doing things with him, was good to him in this or that way ...?

Another thing, regarding the phone call between Tim Romans and his wife, he could easily said to her he must go the boy (or somebody) was calling him, just to cut short the phone call, if the divorce rumor is true. Or somebody else came, but he did not want to tell her who?

Yep, I am interested in whether or not Tim's wife knew about this other woman. Also, did the girlfriend know about the wife? I think these are crucial questions, as it should be in an investigation.

[bkwits]

Yep, I am interested in whether or not Tim's wife knew about this other woman. Also, did the girlfriend know about the wife? I think these are crucial questions, as it should be in an investigation.

I have read on this board, I think, that he asked the other woman to marry him the night before. How does a man propose to a woman when he already has a wife? The girlfriend prob knew he was married if he went home every weekend. IMO

[Kether]

This is the weirdest thing about this case. Everyone has the fight or flee, he was a ways from the house WHY would he intentionally go towards the shots? Tim has a cell phone, there is a vehicle parked at the house, why doesn't he take cover and call 911???

This is exactly what I have been trying to figure out. This is the part that doesn't make sense to me. :shrug:

[Kether]

So, the shooter is inside the house, maybe surprised, maybe not. He shoots Vincent Romero from the back? than goes out the back door, around the house, shoots Tim Romans front, Tim runs to the house for cover, shooter runs to him shoots him 3 more times? Last one is close. He disposed the shells at that point. Then, the problem comes with the different shell, so another person is there, he shoots Tim once, or the child goes with the gun and shoots the car running?

HMMM, sounds mighty complicated for an 8 year old, don't ya think? So, he has two guns and bounces around the property like a ping pong ball and even picks up his casings?

[Kether]

I have read on this board, I think, that he asked the other woman to marry him the night before. How does a man propose to a woman when he already has a wife? The girlfriend prob knew he was married if he went home every weekend. IMO

I wouldn't assume that as of yet. The girlfriend could have been told he works on weekends in another town. Cheating men find their ways.

[secrets]

No, I meant the shooter/s.
The boy I mentioned only in regards for the one shell different from the others (if it is one) because the boy said on the video he shot at the car once, or that the gun just discharged (is this the proper word?). I am not sue he shot even once, but I just speculated.

[Kara]

Exactly. The knowledge of the threats against his parent that he had told to CPS workers about his spanking limit would give LE probable cause to get another search warrant to retrieve any such ledgers or records that supported what he had told the caseworkers.

imooWell, I was responding to January who wondered how CPS records became known by the media...but my point was this... Obviously there has been prior involvement by CPS (which really isn't typical for most families) and it became public knowledge because it was used to support an affadavit for a search warrant.

But, as others have said, 1000 spankings is just a huge number. I can also count on one hand the number of times I spanked child boy when he was growing up. Spanking was reserved for really serious situations where a point needed to be made very strongly. It usually involved a safety issue like darting into traffic. Those were the rule infraction that I treated most seriously...

[Kether]

No, I meant the shooter/s.
The boy I mentioned only in regards for the one shell different from the others (if it is one) because the boy said on the video he shot at the car once, or that the gun just discharged (is this the proper word?). I am not sue he shot even once, but I just speculated.

I know what you meant, but I am being slightly sarcastic regaing LE, thinking a child could do all of this.

[GentleBreeze]

I just can't wrap my brain around someone being shot then going towards where the shots were fired instead of going in the opposite direction. Tim had to know the shots were coming from around the house, if he was shot in the front first he knew they were coming toward the way he was facing, same thing for being shot in the back.

I don't have any problem visualizing how it may have happened. He probably was shot first in his arm and I have read articles that people when shot don't even realize they have been shot even if it is in their gut, which can cause the most pain. He was still fully dressed. This was a very small bullet. He may have only felt a sting or nothing at all. All of this is happening in less than a minute from the truck to where he died. The blood was not a continuous trail but blood droppings sporadically from point A to point B.

We do not know how close he was to the porch when he was hit with the chest shots. We only know that one of the shots to his head was at very close range most likely when he was already dying or dead on the porch.

These entry and exit wounds for a .22 bullet are like a small pinpoint.

imoo

[secrets]

:biggrin:I did not get that at first.
That way:
1. shooter/s jump in the car, drive away, kid comes, sees the car, sees Tim, and his father.
Or
2. Kid comes through back door, sees father calls for Tim, Tim is being shot, runs to the house being shot front by the man by the side of the house, and shot 2 times from behind, and finally up close.

Kid does not see shooter: he is scared, runs through back door, or runs to get the gun (less likely).
Kid does see the shooter, but can't/ is afraid to tell.
etc. etc.
Do I make some sense?
Of course, we need the evidence now to have the true story here.

[bkwits]

Exactly. The knowledge of the threats against his parent that he had told to CPS workers about his spanking limit would give LE probable cause to get another search warrant to retrieve any such ledgers or records that supported what he had told the caseworkers.

imoozzzzzzzzzzzzzzz/

When did he tell this to CPS? Why would he have been talking to CPS before the shootings, or was it after?

How and when did he "threaten" his parents?:shrug:

[Kether]

I don't have any problem visualizing how it may have happened. He probably was shot first in his arm and I have read articles that people when shot don't even realize they have been shot even if it is in their gut, which can cause the most pain. He was still fully dressed. This was a very small bullet. He may have only felt a sting or nothing at all. All of this is happening in less than a minute from the truck to where he died. The blood was not a continuous trail but blood droppings sporadically from point A to point B.

We do not know how close he was to the porch when he was hit with the chest shots. We only know that one of the shots to his head was at very close range most likely when he was already dying or dead on the porch.

These entry and exit wounds for a .22 bullet are like a small pinpoint.

imoo


HMMM, so how many times can a person be shot and dripping a trail of blood before they realize they need to quit walking toward the person shooting them? If he didn't realize he was shot wouldn't he have at least seen someone holding the gun pointing toward him, especially if it is coming from the front door of the house as police say that is where the child shot him? So now, the child has to be hiding while shooting and Tim just keeps walking toward the door not realizing that is where the shots are coming from?

[GentleBreeze]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz/

When did he tell this to CPS? Why would he have been talking to CPS before the shootings, or was it after?

How and when did he "threaten" his parents?:shrug:

It was after. He told them it would be the last. His father is murdered. I am sure this was meant as threat or omen, don't you?

[emdragon]

Exactly. The knowledge of the threats against his parent that he had told to CPS workers about his spanking limit would give LE probable cause to get another search warrant to retrieve any such ledgers or records that supported what he had told the caseworkers.

imoo

So if he told CPS his threats about his father would they not have told Dad that? The would have had to in order to investigate. So your just told your son is talking about killing you and yet you go out a buy him a GUN and teach him how to shoot?

Right that makes perfect sense to me.

[GentleBreeze]

HMMM, so how many times can a person be shot and dripping a trail of blood before they realize they need to quit walking toward the person shooting them? If he didn't realize he was shot wouldn't he have at least seen someone holding the gun pointing toward him, especially if it is coming from the front door of the house as police say that is where the child shot him? So now, the child has to be hiding while shooting and Tim just keeps walking toward the door not realizing that is where the shots are coming from?

Not if he didn't see them. It was beginning to get dusk dark by then.

He may have thought they were being fired inside the home.

I don't know but the experts will know exactly where the victims were each time when they were hit and where the shooter was standing when they fired each shot into the victims.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

So if he told CPS his threats about his father would they not have told Dad that? The would have had to in order to investigate. So your just told your son is talking about killing you and yet you go out a buy him a GUN and teach him how to shoot?

Right that makes perfect sense to me.

Shows me that he has told the caseworkers attached to this case, not before. Yes, they would have to notify the parent if a child was making threats against them.

So imo I believe it is just as the AP reported it. There were no complaints filed with the AZ CPR on this child before this happened.

imoo

[Kether]

:biggrin:I did not get that at first.
That way:
1. shooter/s jump in the car, drive away, kid comes, sees the car, sees Tim, and his father.
Or
2. Kid comes through back door, sees father calls for Tim, Tim is being shot, runs to the house being shot front by the man by the side of the house, and shot 2 times from behind, and finally up close.

Kid does not see shooter: he is scared, runs through back door, or runs to get the gun (less likely).
Kid does see the shooter, but can't/ is afraid to tell.
etc. etc.
Do I make some sense?
Of course, we need the evidence now to have the true story here.

Right now, with what little EVIDENCE that has been released anything is possible. This child is innocent until proven guilty. LE should be looking at all theories on what happened, instead of pinning a young child up in a room alone. And if this child was abused, which I think he was, that would mean the step mother was involved in the abuse or at the very least knew about it. Same goes for the grandmother. Shame on them, if this is the case. Anyone that abused this child or allowed this child to be abused clearly doesn't have the right to let police question him. ESPECIALLY SINCE THEY ARE NOT THE LEGAL BIOLOGICAL GUARDIAN. Even after all of this, the step mom and grandmother are still not protecting him. I guess old habits die hard.

[Kether]

It was after. He told them it would be the last. His father is murdered. I am sure this was meant as threat or omen, don't you?

Do you have a link saying it was AFTERWARDS all of this that CPS was brought in instead of before. In the articles that I have read it is very vague.

[JD1974]

So, the shooter is inside the house, maybe surprised, maybe not. He shoots Vincent Romero from the back? than goes out the back door, around the house, shoots Tim Romans front, Tim runs to the house for cover, shooter runs to him shoots him 3 more times? Last one is close. He disposed the shells at that point. Then, the problem comes with the different shell, so another person is there, he shoots Tim once, or the child goes with the gun and shoots the car running?

Ok and no one heard or seen any of this? The boy has to go to the neighbors and have them call 911..so Tim not only runs toward the shots but he never gives any indication what is going on by yelling, dialing 911 ater the first shot? If he called 911 and then even dropped the phone there would still be a record of the call. See this is why I am so confused lol

[Kether]

Shows me that he has told the caseworkers attached to this case, not before. Yes, they would have to notify the parent if a child was making threats against them.

So imo I believe it is just as the AP reported it. There were no complaints filed with the AZ CPR on this child before this happened.

imoo

IMHO, the media reporting is not what it is cracked up to be. I have seen family members come on here in other cases to refute and straighten out the misinformation by the media several times. As I stated above, it is not etched in stone that CPS was not called in before all of this happened. We will have to wait and see.

[secrets]

Yes, crazy. To think this women would betray this child in a split second, after the LE said to them the boy did it. Speaks volumes of the grandmothers character (and not in a good way IMO). As for the step mom, as I said, she was never mentioned in a bright light regarding the boy, never something is said that would show she took care of the boy, or did things with me. Only time I here she did something for the child was on the video, when he said: she hit me.

Right now, with what little EVIDENCE that has been released anything is possible. This child is innocent until proven guilty. LE should be looking at all theories on what happened, instead of pinning a young child up in a room alone. And if this child was abused, which I think he was, that would mean the step mother was involved in the abuse or at the very least knew about it. Same goes for the grandmother. Shame on them, if this is the case. Anyone that abused this child or allowed this child to be abused clearly doesn't have the right to let police question him. ESPECIALLY SINCE THEY ARE NOT THE LEGAL BIOLOGICAL GUARDIAN. Even after all of this, the step mom and grandmother are still not protecting him. I guess old habits die hard.

[Kether]

Yes, crazy. To think this women would betray this child in a split second, after the LE said to them the boy did it. Speaks volumes of the grandmothers character (and not in a good way IMO). As for the step mom, as I said, she was never mentioned in a bright light regarding the boy, never something is said that would show she took care of the boy, or did things with me. Only time I here she did something for the child was on the video, when he said: she hit me.

It seems to me that this family was quite use to pinning a lot of things on this kid. Maybe he did it, maybe he didn't, but I will let the evidence speak for itself. I will not listen to the stepmom or the the grandmother. Neither deserve any respect or credibility, IMHO. They have too much covering of their behinds to worry about, I would take what they say with a grain of salt.

[JD1974]

I don't have any problem visualizing how it may have happened. He probably was shot first in his arm and I have read articles that people when shot don't even realize they have been shot even if it is in their gut, which can cause the most pain. He was still fully dressed. This was a very small bullet. He may have only felt a sting or nothing at all. All of this is happening in less than a minute from the truck to where he died. The blood was not a continuous trail but blood droppings sporadically from point A to point B.

We do not know how close he was to the porch when he was hit with the chest shots. We only know that one of the shots to his head was at very close range most likely when he was already dying or dead on the porch.

These entry and exit wounds for a .22 bullet are like a small pinpoint.

imoo



My brother in law shot himself in the head with a 22 it was not a small pin point. Also I have been shot with a little BB gun and it hurt like heck. Have you ever watched a crowd of people when a gun is fired..they automatically start running whether they have been shot or not. So as I said, Tim had to hear the shot that hit him, had to see the blood on his shirt, he knew he was shot yet went toward the shooter. Even if he didn't know he was shot your natural instinct kicks in and you flee from where the bullets are coming from. No way am I buying that he was shot that many times in less than a minute, no way can a kid reload, shoot, reload, shoot, reload, shoot, reload, shoot that many times in 1 min.

[FurthurBB]

Right now, with what little EVIDENCE that has been released anything is possible. This child is innocent until proven guilty. LE should be looking at all theories on what happened, instead of pinning a young child up in a room alone. And if this child was abused, which I think he was, that would mean the step mother was involved in the abuse or at the very least knew about it. Same goes for the grandmother. Shame on them, if this is the case. Anyone that abused this child or allowed this child to be abused clearly doesn't have the right to let police question him. ESPECIALLY SINCE THEY ARE NOT THE LEGAL BIOLOGICAL GUARDIAN. Even after all of this, the step mom and grandmother are still not protecting him. I guess old habits die hard.

If you have full custody of your child and get remarried, then your spouse becomes the legal guardian of that child. A legal guardian has more rights than a biological parent with visitation rights. Your death would not end that guardianship, only a court could. IMO

[FurthurBB]

Ok and no one heard or seen any of this? The boy has to go to the neighbors and have them call 911..so Tim not only runs toward the shots but he never gives any indication what is going on by yelling, dialing 911 ater the first shot? If he called 911 and then even dropped the phone there would still be a record of the call. See this is why I am so confused lol

Also, it seems unlikely that Tim would have been shot more times than the father if the crime was meant for the father. Usually, you can tell the intended target by the number of wounds. IMO

[Kether]

My brother in law shot himself in the head with a 22 it was not a small pin point. Also I have been shot with a little BB gun and it hurt like heck. Have you ever watched a crowd of people when a gun is fired..they automatically start running whether they have been shot or not. So as I said, Tim had to hear the shot that hit him, had to see the blood on his shirt, he knew he was shot yet went toward the shooter. Even if he didn't know he was shot your natural instinct kicks in and you flee from where the bullets are coming from. No way am I buying that he was shot that many times in less than a minute, no way can a kid reload, shoot, reload, shoot, reload, shoot, reload, shoot that many times in 1 min.

Yep, and we are to believe the child did all of that with Tim running TOWARDS HIM and didn't have the chance to overpower the child.

[secrets]

IMO, the only reason for Tim to run to the house is that the shooter is either from the side of the house, Tm is facing him, is shot in the hand,rest of him still by the car door, runs around the car and to the house for safety, killer runs after him, shoots him in the back.
Or, Tim is next to the car facing the street, gets shot in the front, runs to the house, is shot in back.
Of course, all of this happens pretty fast.

Ok and no one heard or seen any of this? The boy has to go to the neighbors and have them call 911..so Tim not only runs toward the shots but he never gives any indication what is going on by yelling, dialing 911 ater the first shot? If he called 911 and then even dropped the phone there would still be a record of the call. See this is why I am so confused lol

[GentleBreeze]

Yes, crazy. To think this women would betray this child in a split second, after the LE said to them the boy did it. Speaks volumes of the grandmothers character (and not in a good way IMO). As for the step mom, as I said, she was never mentioned in a bright light regarding the boy, never something is said that would show she took care of the boy, or did things with me. Only time I here she did something for the child was on the video, when he said: she hit me.

Imo, he loved her. When LE was holding him at the police station he was unemotional. I believe he told them that his dad had a cell phone like one of the officers did but he said that his dad wouldn't be needing it because he was not coming back. No emotion, just matter of fact.

Only when he saw his stepmother (mom to him) arriving did he show any emotion. He ran to her, hugged her and cried.

imoo

[blue bird]

The point was the stepmother gave them permission. They thought he was a victim and had been in the home when the crimes occurred. They were even making plans for heightened safety measures in case he named the murderer. They were very fearful for his safety. They had no idea at the time he wasn't a witness at all but the perpetrator.

LE will question children who may be victims and don't want another family member in the room where it may put pressure on the child to keep secret what they may know or have seen.

But I do agree when it became apparent he was involved they should have stopped immediately.

imoo

She was no longer legally related to him after the father was dead, therefore, she did not have the legal authority to give permission.

Does anyone know if the bio-mom and dad shared legal custody with the dad having physical custody? That is usually how things work, one getting physical and and sharing legal custody. If that is the case, the police should have gotten permission from the bio-mom.

[Kether]

If you have full custody of your child and get remarried, then your spouse becomes the legal guardian of that child. A legal guardian has more rights than a biological parent with visitation rights. Your death would not end that guardianship, only a court could. IMO


I would think this case is unique, in regards to the legal guardian issue. We will see if this stands.

[emdragon]

My brother in law shot himself in the head with a 22 it was not a small pin point. Also I have been shot with a little BB gun and it hurt like heck. Have you ever watched a crowd of people when a gun is fired..they automatically start running whether they have been shot or not. So as I said, Tim had to hear the shot that hit him, had to see the blood on his shirt, he knew he was shot yet went toward the shooter. Even if he didn't know he was shot your natural instinct kicks in and you flee from where the bullets are coming from. No way am I buying that he was shot that many times in less than a minute, no way can a kid reload, shoot, reload, shoot, reload, shoot, reload, shoot that many times in 1 min.

Sorry about your BIL-

Thanks I knew that statement was absurd. Even a BB is larger than a pin point.

[GentleBreeze]

IMHO, the media reporting is not what it is cracked up to be. I have seen family members come on here in other cases to refute and straighten out the misinformation by the media several times. As I stated above, it is not etched in stone that CPS was not called in before all of this happened. We will have to wait and see.


That is true however they always are on the spot when it comes to CPR complaints when it comes to the victims or the perpertrators. That is quickly searched and revealed.

imoo

[JD1974]

If you have full custody of your child and get remarried, then your spouse becomes the legal guardian of that child. A legal guardian has more rights than a biological parent with visitation rights. Your death would not end that guardianship, only a court could. IMO



IIRC the mother and father had JOINT CUSTODY. If a judge did not take the bio moms rights away then she is the boys guardian. Can you site anywhere in law where a step parent has more legal standing than a bio parent with joint custody?

[FurthurBB]

IIRC the mother and father had JOINT CUSTODY. If a judge did not take the bio moms rights away then she is the boys guardian. Can you site anywhere in law where a step parent has more legal standing than a bio parent with joint custody?

No, I thought I read that the father had full custody. I have full custody of my daughter and my husband has more rights than her father. Her father does has visitation rights, but, is not her legal guardian. I do not know about joint custody, that would obviously be a different case. IMO

[Kether]

Imo, he loved her. When LE was holding him at the police station he was unemotional. I believe he told them that his dad had a cell phone like one of the officers did but he said that his dad wouldn't be needing it because he was not coming back. No emotion, just matter of fact.

Only when he saw his stepmother (mom to him) arriving did he show any emotion. He ran to her, hugged her and cried.

imoo

Well, IMHO, that is exactly how a child would behave that has been taught how to answer the police officer's questions. Then the same person that taught him how to answer also tells him that she will protect him from the police. He has done what he was told to do and is now waiting for his supposed protector. So, yeah, he is happy it is over and now he believes his protector has arrived. Sorry, I don't trust the step mom. I'll wait on the evidence.

[secrets]

The info the media is getting is by LE, not CPS, actually from the warrant.

That is true however they always are on the spot when it comes to CPR complaints when it comes to the victims or the perpertrators. That is quickly searched and revealed.

imoo

[JD1974]

IMO, the only reason for Tim to run to the house is that the shooter is either from the side of the house, Tm is facing him, is shot in the hand,rest of him still by the car door, runs around the car and to the house for safety, killer runs after him, shoots him in the back.
Or, Tim is next to the car facing the street, gets shot in the front, runs to the house, is shot in back.
Of course, all of this happens pretty fast.


Ok so heres another question, Tims wife says she heard the boy call for him..then Tim gets shot. Now think about it, a kid says he needs help with his dad because he is hurt, Tim starts walking to the house and gets shot...what are the odds the kid is the shooter IF that is how it happened? I am talking about what was going through Tims head at the time...


ETA I guess he doesn't neccesarily think it is the boy, but the father is hurt according to the boy, Tim goes toward the house and gets shot...common sense says the shooter is in or near the house, why not run and hide behind the car, grab the GUN that is in the car to defend himself and call 911?

[GentleBreeze]

My brother in law shot himself in the head with a 22 it was not a small pin point. Also I have been shot with a little BB gun and it hurt like heck. Have you ever watched a crowd of people when a gun is fired..they automatically start running whether they have been shot or not. So as I said, Tim had to hear the shot that hit him, had to see the blood on his shirt, he knew he was shot yet went toward the shooter. Even if he didn't know he was shot your natural instinct kicks in and you flee from where the bullets are coming from. No way am I buying that he was shot that many times in less than a minute, no way can a kid reload, shoot, reload, shoot, reload, shoot, reload, shoot that many times in 1 min.

Well there are variances in everything but even the officers said the wounds would appear very small like a pinpoint. Many times because the bullet is small the skin will seal over the wound and close some. Now if he used hollow point bullets the damage would be greater as the lead when it hits the target fragments outward. They also testified that the clothing had tiny holes in the fabric.

I can't explain why some people do things that others would not do but they do and sometimes they do not think of their own risk but are fixated on the horrific event at the time.

Why? It only takes around 5 seconds to reload this weapon. It is a very fluid procedure especially to someone that is very familiar with the gun.

imoo

[Kether]

No, I thought I read that the father had full custody. I have full custody of my daughter and my husband has more rights than her father. Her father does has visitation rights, but, is not her legal guardian. I do not know about joint custody, that would obviously be a different case. IMO

They had shared custody according to the articles that I read.

[secrets]

I have to disagree. IMO, the child was in shock, loosing his father, and then abused by police, and told at the end he will go to juvie. So, the first person he knows enters, and he is scared and hopes she will help him. Desperate people would hope for help even from their enemy.

Imo, he loved her. When LE was holding him at the police station he was unemotional. I believe he told them that his dad had a cell phone like one of the officers did but he said that his dad wouldn't be needing it because he was not coming back. No emotion, just matter of fact.

Only when he saw his stepmother (mom to him) arriving did he show any emotion. He ran to her, hugged her and cried.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

The info the media is getting is by LE, not CPS, actually from the warrant.

Right. The District Attorney is the one that has to request this information and he did in order to obtain another search warrant.

imo

[JD1974]

No, I thought I read that the father had full custody. I have full custody of my daughter and my husband has more rights than her father. Her father does has visitation rights, but, is not her legal guardian. I do not know about joint custody, that would obviously be a different case. IMO

That is absolutely true in your case. If god forbid something happened to you though, your husband would not have more rights then your childs father. Your husband only has rights because YOU have full custody, if something happens you no longer have full custody and your husband no longer has legal standing. There are always exceptions of course, if the bio father is abusive etc.

[GentleBreeze]

I have to disagree. IMO, the child was in shock, loosing his father, and then abused by police, and told at the end he will go to juvie. So, the first person he knows enters, and he is scared and hopes she will help him. Desperate people would hope for help even from their enemy.

I don't agree at all but if you want to make the step mom the heavy then that is your entitled opinion and I respect that. It was obvious to me when he called her "mom" he was very comfortable and relaxed doing so. He sure had never had a consistent mom figure much in his life until she came into the picture over 2 years ago.

imoo

[Kether]

Ok so heres another question, Tims wife says she heard the boy call for him..then Tim gets shot. Now think about it, a kid says he needs help with his dad because he is hurt, Tim starts walking to the house and gets shot...what are the odds the kid is the shooter IF that is how it happened? I am talking about what was going through Tims head at the time...


ETA I guess he doesn't neccesarily think it is the boy, but the father is hurt according to the boy, Tim goes toward the house and gets shot...common sense says the shooter is in or near the house, why not run and hide behind the car, grab the GUN that is in the car to defend himself and call 911?

I've thought about that also. The only conclusion that I can think of is that he thought the boy was in danger and was trying to save him. Maybe he didn't think the boy was the shooter even though he saw him with the gun. Maybe he thought the boy was trying to protect himself and his father from the perp. I honestly don't know what to think.:shrug:

[blue bird]

No, I thought I read that the father had full custody. I have full custody of my daughter and my husband has more rights than her father. Her father does has visitation rights, but, is not her legal guardian. I do not know about joint custody, that would obviously be a different case. IMO

That is because you are still alive. Bio parental rights can only be terminated by a court and that is difficult (or by a parent waiving their rights). If you died, your daughter's bio-father would be her legal guardian by law.

I have a step daughter of 7+ years, we have spoke with attys and this is how it works. Her bio-mom spent 5 yrs in prison for the death or her other child and my step daughter was abused as well and her parental rights were not terminated automatically. Her bio mom still is her legal mother although, my husband has full physical & legal rights, her rights trump mine if he were to die. Unfortunately, at this time, we can't afford to take her to court to terminate her rights.

[Kether]

I have to disagree. IMO, the child was in shock, loosing his father, and then abused by police, and told at the end he will go to juvie. So, the first person he knows enters, and he is scared and hopes she will help him. Desperate people would hope for help even from their enemy.

It wasn't too long ago a person was recorded by camera abusing a child in a convience store. After he beats this little child, this small child then turns and runs after his abuser, scared that he will be left behind at the store. So yes, what you have said makes complete sense.

[secrets]

How could he not know who is shooting at him? I believe he had seen the shooter and is running away from him. And I said that he is shoot by the side of the house (not necessarily near the house wall, the shooter could be further, but still from the side of the house), or from the street. Never from the inside of the house, otherwise he would not be running inside. He might have tried to get the gun, was shot in the hand, he has no time, has to run. Or the gun could be empty as far as we know. Can't call 911 either, he is shot in the hand, and has no time, he is running from the shooter.

Ok so heres another question, Tims wife says she heard the boy call for him..then Tim gets shot. Now think about it, a kid says he needs help with his dad because he is hurt, Tim starts walking to the house and gets shot...what are the odds the kid is the shooter IF that is how it happened? I am talking about what was going through Tims head at the time...


ETA I guess he doesn't neccesarily think it is the boy, but the father is hurt according to the boy, Tim goes toward the house and gets shot...common sense says the shooter is in or near the house, why not run and hide behind the car, grab the GUN that is in the car to defend himself and call 911?

[FurthurBB]

That is absolutely true in your case. If god forbid something happened to you though, your husband would not have more rights then your childs father. Your husband only has rights because YOU have full custody, if something happens you no longer have full custody and your husband no longer has legal standing. There are always exceptions of course, if the bio father is abusive etc.


Well, she is 19 now, so there would be no problem, but, my lawyer told me her father would have to fight for custody from my husband if something happened to me. I do not think he would have, though. He never wanted to be a father, really. IMO

[FurthurBB]

That is because you are still alive. Bio parental rights can only be terminated by a court and that is difficult (or by a parent waiving their rights). If you died, your daughter's bio-father would be her legal guardian by law.

I have a step daughter of 7+ years, we have spoke with attys and this is how it works. Her bio-mom spent 5 yrs in prison for the death or her other child and my step daughter was abused as well and her parental rights were not terminated automatically. Her bio mom still is her legal mother although, my husband has full physical & legal rights, her rights trump mine if he were to die. Unfortunately, at this time, we can't afford to take her to court to terminate her rights.


Well, my lawyer told me differently and I trust her because she is one of the best. So, it could just be a difference in states, I do not know. IMO

[GentleBreeze]

Well, my lawyer told me differently and I trust her because she is one of the best. So, it could just be a difference in states, I do not know. IMO

That is true in other states as well. The other bio parent is not assured legal custody of the child, no matter what the circumstances may be.

Also a step parent can petition the Court seeking the right to raise the children in their home if their spouse passes away. It depends on many things whether they are awarded that or not.

We had a mother here that was killed in a car wreck. The bio father had to go to court to seek custody and he was denied. The grandmother was awarded custody.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

How could he not know who is shooting at him? I believe he had seen the shooter and is running away from him. And I said that he is shoot by the side of the house (not necessarily near the house wall, the shooter could be further, but still from the side of the house), or from the street. Never from the inside of the house, otherwise he would not be running inside. He might have tried to get the gun, was shot in the hand, he has no time, has to run. Or the gun could be empty as far as we know. Can't call 911 either, he is shot in the hand, and has no time, he is running from the shooter.

But if he was running away from him wouldn't the shots be to the back instead of the chest since he was going toward the home? :confused: He was shot in the arm, wasn't he? They will know if that shot came from the front or back too.

Now the ivy bushes were big enough, I guess, that someone small could have gotten down behind them and he couldn't see them there but the one where they found the four casings was the one that was riight at the edge of the porch area and right at the door.

imoo

[Kether]

That is true in other states as well. The other bio parent is not assured legal custody of the child, no matter what the circumstances may be.

Also a step parent can petition the Court seeking the right to raise the children in their home if their spouse passes away. It depends on many things whether they are awarded that or not.

We had a mother here that was killed in a car wreck. The bio father had to go to court to seek custody and he was denied. The grandmother was awarded custody.

imo

This tells me that each case is different and dealt with accordingly. This case will be done the same way. It will be determined whether or not the step mom had the right to give permission. It will not automatically be assumed that she had the right, IMHO.

[GentleBreeze]

This tells me that each case is different and dealt with accordingly. This case will be done the same way. It will be determined whether or not the step mom had the right to give permission. It will not automatically be assumed that she had the right, IMHO.

And it will not automatically be assumed that she did not have the right. There are always clauses in laws to deal with unexpected situations.

imoo

[Kether]

But if he was running away from him wouldn't the shots be to the back instead of the chest since he was going toward the home? :confused: He was shot in the arm, wasn't he? They will know if that shot came from the front or back too.

Now the ivy bushes were big enough, I guess, that someone small could have gotten down behind them and he couldn't see them there but the one where they found the four casings was the one that was riight at the edge of the porch area and right at the door.

imoo

This would be the case if there was one shooter and he/she was on or close to the porch. It would make perfect sense if there were two shooters. Basically it would mean he was ambushed. Two different shell casing, so it is possible.

[bkwits]

It was after. He told them it would be the last. His father is murdered. I am sure this was meant as threat or omen, don't you?

I'm sorry but this makes no sense to me. I didn't hear anything about a threat. It is implied that he (the child) said 1000 spankings was his limit. I don't consider that as a death threat against his dad. (Besides the fact that his dad was already dead, if you are correct).

I would like to know the exact words that the child said. He was said to have kept a tally. Where is this tally? Why would he tell CPS about it afterwards. IMO, this is a lot of innuendo and speculation all thrown together.

[Kether]

And it will not automatically be assumed that she did not have the right. There are always clauses in laws to deal with unexpected situations.

imoo

Exactly! As I said this case is unique and we will have to wait and see if she legally had the right to give permission.

[bkwits]

And it will not automatically be assumed that she did not have the right. There are always clauses in laws to deal with unexpected situations.

imoo

The stepmom is 24 years old and has only been his stepmom for a few weeks. What is the problem with waiting until the child has someone to look out for him in the interview room?

[Kether]

The stepmom is 24 years old and has only been his stepmom for a few weeks. What is the problem with waiting until the child has someone to look out for him in the interview room?

It shouldn't have been a problem at all, unless there was a rush to judgement. JMHO

[blue bird]

And it will not automatically be assumed that she did not have the right. There are always clauses in laws to deal with unexpected situations.

imoo

At that point, she should have been a suspect. Don't you think?

[secrets]

He is shot in the chest, he is near the car, goes for the gun, is shot in the hand, goes to the house while the shooter has one last chance to shoot him in the chest, after that he is shot two times from behind while running to the house, and one last time again close and from behind, maybe, lying down? So, yes he can be shot in the chest running from the shooter. The thing is we have nothing so far in form of lab report etc. But, they will know where he was hit from in the hand, only if they know where he was facing, the house, or the street, if there is nothing else to show how the bullet traveled. I am not expert here, it is just logic and speculation due to lack of key information.

I don't think the boy would hide in the bush, and how would you than explain the time frame in that case. The shooting happened in very short time frame. And it is just to much manoovering?(spelling?) on the part of the boy.

But if he was running away from him wouldn't the shots be to the back instead of the chest since he was going toward the home? :confused: He was shot in the arm, wasn't he? They will know if that shot came from the front or back too.

Now the ivy bushes were big enough, I guess, that someone small could have gotten down behind them and he couldn't see them there but the one where they found the four casings was the one that was riight at the edge of the porch area and right at the door.

imoo

[Kether]

At that point, she should have been a suspect. Don't you think?

Nay, couldn't be. Some are already SURE this child threatened or had a bad omen against his father. So you see, the step mom couldn't be a suspect. (sarcasm off)

[Kether]

He is shot in the chest, he is near the car, goes for the gun, is shot in the hand, goes to the house while the shooter has one last chance to shoot him in the chest, after that he is shot two times from behind while running to the house, and one last time again close and from behind, maybe, lying down? So, yes he can be shot in the chest running from the shooter. The thing is we have nothing so far in form of lab report etc. But, they will know where he was hit from in the hand, only if they not where he was facing, the house, or the street, if there is nothing else to show how the bullet traveled. I am not expert here, it is just logic and speculation due to lack of key information.

I don't think the boy would hide in the bush, and how would you than explain the time frame in that case. The shooting happened in very short time frame. And it is just to much manoovering?(spelling?) on the part of the boy.

Tim was located between the truck and the home when the shooting began. We don't know how many times he turned and faced how many different directions. We don't know how many times he was shot before he reached the porch, but they can probably determine how manty times he was shot there and conclude the rest was while he was running there. But, he doesn't have to run facing straight forward from the truck to house. Scared people will even run circles not knowing what to do. He didn't have to be facing straight ahead toward the house the entire time he was outside. So, your theory is just as plausible as the rest. Either Tim ran straight for the house and there was more than one shooter or he kept turning frontwards and backwards as shots were fired from the porch. The latter seems odd, but it is possible. The two shooter theory seems more plausible, IMHO, and two different casings makes it seem more likely.

[blue bird]

Tim was located between the truck and the home when the shooting began. We don't know how many times he turned and faced how many different directions. We don't know how many times he was shot before he reached the porch, but they can probably determine how manty times he was shot there and conclude the rest was while he was running there. But, he doesn't have to run facing straight forward from the truck to house. Scared people will even run circles not knowing what to do. He didn't have to be facing straight ahead toward the house the entire time he was outside. So, your theory is just as plausible as the rest. Either Tim ran straight for the house and there was more than one shooter or he kept turning frontwards and backwards as shots were fired from the porch. The latter seems odd, but it is possible. The two shooter theory seems more plausible, IMHO, and two different casings makes it seem more likely.

I thought a lone 8yr old boy pumping 10 rounds into 2 adult men with a single gauge, without dropping a single shell, for absolutely no reason other than being born evil was the most plausible explanation. :shrug: (sarcasm off)

[secrets]

The single shooter approach was when the shooter is on the street, or near the street, they live on the corner. I will study the area some more.

Tim was located between the truck and the home when the shooting began. We don't know how many times he turned and faced how many different directions. We don't know how many times he was shot before he reached the porch, but they can probably determine how manty times he was shot there and conclude the rest was while he was running there. But, he doesn't have to run facing straight forward from the truck to house. Scared people will even run circles not knowing what to do. He didn't have to be facing straight ahead toward the house the entire time he was outside. So, your theory is just as plausible as the rest. Either Tim ran straight for the house and there was more than one shooter or he kept turning frontwards and backwards as shots were fired from the porch. The latter seems odd, but it is possible. The two shooter theory seems more plausible, IMHO, and two different casings makes it seem more likely.

[Kether]

I thought a lone 8yr old boy pumping 10 rounds into 2 adult men with a single gauge, without dropping a single shell, for absolutely no reason other than being born evil was the most plausible explanation. :shrug: (sarcasm off)

Sadly, this is what LE was telling the media.

[Kether]

The single shooter approach was when the shooter is on the street, or near the street, they live on the corner. I will study the area some more.

Do you live in this area? If you mentioned it in previous posts, I am sorry for asking. All the posts run together after a little while.
The evidence will show clearly how many times Tim was shot on the porch. When we find out his information, things will come into focus much more clearly, IMHO. Until then all we can do is speculate. Let me know what you find out from your study of the area.

[secrets]

Have they already determined the trajectories for sure? For instance, that most of the shots came from inside the house?
Because, I thought those were only the theory of how it happened, that LE had regarding their assumption the boy shot him, and on the basis of Tim's wife stating the boy was calling Tim inside.

No I don't live there, but I'll goggle it and check the photos.

[Kether]

Have they already determined the trajectories for sure? For instance, that most of the shots came from inside the house?
Because, I thought those were only the theory of how it happened, that LE had regarding their assumption the boy shot him, and on the basis of Tim's wife stating the boy was calling Tim inside.

No I don't live there, but I'll goggle it and check the photos.

That is the problem, I think most, including myself, have made massive assumptions based on what LE has released to the media. We don't know anything for sure about the angles or directions in which the shots were fired. I haven't read a single article that pointed it out. So, you have made me realize that even I have made assumptions and created theories out of them. Sheesh, we need more information. If anyone has links that points out this info please post it.

[Kether]

The lack of concern for the protection of children is just shocking to me! Why won't the courts take care of the legal issues (termination of parental rights) right away while prosecuting the woman who killed her other child and abused the one you speak of. As soon as she was convicted - while all the necessary people are there , lawyers, judges, social service or whatever; the status of the remaining child should have been settled right away.... why would they leave the termination of parental rights to later - if you can afford it? It needs to be part of the final resolution of the case. Its ridiculous!
We have murderers on death row and/or serving life sentences trying to assert their "parental rights" and draining funds from the families caring for the children; fighting to protect the kids. :flamemad:

And in this situation all the parties need to be thoroughly investigated. The grandparents sound nutty to me - and why would a new stepmom be spanking an 8 yrs old? Or making any decisions about what is best for him? What a mess!

This mess has been done by the same people investigating this crime. So, am I to trust what they have to say about this child? I think I will wait on the evidence, before I jump the gun and scream guilty, as they have done. I thought police were to protect and serve, apparently children is an exception of the rule. If an adult would have done this, would the interrogation tape been on tv in just a matter of days. Would they have the adult killer's grandmother in the media saying she knew he was capable of it? I could go on and on, but hopefully you get the picture. It seems the police were much more harsh in regards to this case to justifiy their decisions. They must paint this child as a monster to protect their behinds, nevermind, this is a kid and the evidence isn't all in as of yet. Unbelievable.