8 year old accused of double murder

[secrets]

Defense Waiting to Decide on Plea Bargain for Boy, 8

By JOHN DOUGHERTY
Published: November 30, 2008

PHOENIX — A lawyer for an 8-year-old Arizona boy accused in the shooting deaths of his father and another man said Sunday he would not decide whether to accept a plea bargain until the prosecution produced forensic evidence and psychologists completed evaluations to determine if the boy was competent to stand trial.

The lawyer, Ron Wood, declined to provide details of the plea bargain offer. “When the time comes, we will have a discussion with the boy and the mother and decide what we are going to do,” he said.

Mr. Wood said the evaluations should be completed in the next few weeks. He said the state had not yet provided him with important evidence, including the results of ballistics tests of the .22-caliber single-action rifle that the police said the boy used to shoot his father, Vincent Romero, 29, four times and a boarder, Timothy Romans, 39, six times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/01/us/01child.html


Thanks for the great link.

[GentleBreeze]

Cops practice all the time.

Hunters get plenty of practice shooting their guns too. Many target shoot when the wild game is not in season.

[Kara]

i always did too......

You no longer expect prosecutors to be honest?

That is truly sad....esp. since you seem to continue to blindly support them.

[GentleBreeze]

Maybe so... Perhaps the defense atty simply has no idea, at this point in time, if this child is guilty of anything. It would certainly be an injustice to enter into a plea agreement before seeing if the physical evidence exonerates this child.


Don't you think though that this kid has opened up to him? I really think he has. In fact I think he has told the CPR workers that were brought into the case a day or two afterwards that he did it but I guess we will see.

JMO

[bkwits]

Don't you think though that this kid has opened up to him? I really think he has. In fact I think he has told the CPR workers that were brought into the case a day or two afterwards that he did it but I guess we will see.

JMO

Who are CPR workers?

[GentleBreeze]

Who are CPR workers?

Sorry. CPS caseworker assigned to the case.

imoo

[Justice_Dawg]

so did he.

neither had to practice on live people to get accurate

In your opinion? Or where you there???

[LindaNJ1216]

You no longer expect prosecutors to be honest?

That is truly sad....esp. since you seem to continue to blindly support them.

Expect? Hmmmm I don't blindly support anyone. What makes you say such a thing?

I will say I think they are more honest than defense attorneys. But handing over discovery at the last possible minute, not handing over exculpatory evidence seems to be common place these days for many prosecutors.

[LindaNJ1216]

In your opinion? Or where you there???

:confused: huh? You think the kid practiced on other human beings before killing these 2 men? Or you think police practice on humans? Ya lost me Dawg

[Kara]

Expect? Hmmmm I don't blindly support anyone. What makes you say such a thing?

I will say I think they are more honest than defense attorneys. But handing over discovery at the last possible minute, not handing over exculpatory evidence seems to be common place these days for many prosecutors.If you can support a pros that does not hand over exculpatory evidence then yes, I would say that you are blindly supporting them.

Ocean...why do the think the "CPR" workers became involved only after the fact???

[Justice_Dawg]

Expect? Hmmmm I don't blindly support anyone. What makes you say such a thing?

I will say I think they are more honest than defense attorneys. But handing over discovery at the last possible minute, not handing over exculpatory evidence seems to be common place these days for many prosecutors.

I can't believe I agree with you. Don't get excited I mean agree with just the bolded part.

[Justice_Dawg]

If you can support a pros that does not hand over exculpatory evidence then yes, I would say that you are blindly supporting them.

Ocean...why do the think the "CPR" workers became involved only after the fact???

I knew that was Ocean. :rolleyes: How many times has she been banned now?

[Kara]

If he shot his father in the back first his father would have gone down with that shot alone. .22 rifles are for long distance shooting up to a mile away but when used from a short distance to the target they are much more lethal. VR was not a threat to this boy. He had his back toward him and then as he lay dying he shot the final shots into his head. He had rendered his father helpless in less than a minute imo.

He lured Tim Romans into the home after his father was dead. He was prepared and lay in wait watching him approach. How was Tim Romans a threat when he was outside of the home, not in and had no weapon in his hand?

I don't know if he dropped any bullets but I sure don't think he HAD to drop any.

JMOROTFLMAO

A mile? For a .22??

You must have different miles down in your part of the country....

Around here there are more than 5200 feet in a mile...yet the suggested distance for sighting a .22 is more like 150 feet.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071116081955AAJNyFG

[LindaNJ1216]

If you can support a pros that does not hand over exculpatory evidence then yes, I would say that you are blindly supporting them.

Ocean...why do the think the "CPR" workers became involved only after the fact???


Kara, I didn't mean in this case they weren't handing over exculpatory evidence. I am saying the only reason the DA wanted to drop one charge was so he could pressure a plea deal or charge him later for the second. This wasn't written down anywhere so he can claim anything he wants now. That's just the way it works.

[Justice_Dawg]

:confused: huh? You think the kid practiced on other human beings before killing these 2 men? Or you think police practice on humans? Ya lost me Dawg It isn't hard to do. Read back.

[LindaNJ1216]

I can't believe I agree with you. Don't get excited I mean agree with just the bolded part.


Whooo hooo! couldn't resist:D

[LindaNJ1216]

It isn't hard to do. Read back.


i did, didn't help..............sigh...no biggie ...miscommunication somewhere

[Kara]

I knew that was Ocean. :rolleyes: How many times has she been banned now?
Bannings do happen to the best of us...it doesn't make her (or me) a bad person/poster. :)

I am curious about the .22 that can accurately shoot over a mile down in her neighborhood though. I thought she lived in Georgia or South Carolina...and miles are usually the same there are they are here in VA.... But google says the correct distance to sight your .22 is about 50 yards, which is far short of a mile... I'm wondering where she lives now that a mile is the proper distance to shoot a .22.......:cool:

[LindaNJ1216]

Bannings do happen to the best of us...it doesn't make her (or me) a bad person/poster. :)



I ain't Linda1216 for nothing....before this I was Linda1215, Linda1214...etc...:biggrin:

[Justice_Dawg]

Good read on the gun----


As to shooting needs on a rural property, the .22 Long Rifle is a small game cartridge. It's suitable for rabbits, squirrels, raccoons, groundhogs, and the like. It's good for crows. It's a good choice for feral cats. It can certainly kill feral dogs, or foxes and coyotes, but frankly it's a little on the light side for animals that size. Remember, even if the animal must die so your livestock may live, you owe it a quick and humane death.

The .22 is a traditional gun for slaughtering livestock. In that situation, however, the animal must be penned under control, and the person performing the slaughter must take their time to put the bullet exactly through the skull in the right spot to reach the brain for an instant, painless death. That won't be possible when shooting a wild animal. When a steer goes wild and tries to trample you, or Ol' Yeller turns rabid and is coming at you, trust me: you'll want something a lot more powerful than a .22.

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob114.html

[Kara]

I ain't Linda1216 for nothing....before this I was Linda1215, Linda1214...etc...:biggrin:
But...were you Linda5NJ? Or Linda4NJ? Or Linda 3NJ? etc?

[Justice_Dawg]

I ain't Linda1216 for nothing....before this I was Linda1215, Linda1214...etc...:biggrin::lol::lol:

[Kara]

Good read on the gun----


As to shooting needs on a rural property, the .22 Long Rifle is a small game cartridge. It's suitable for rabbits, squirrels, raccoons, groundhogs, and the like. It's good for crows. It's a good choice for feral cats. It can certainly kill feral dogs, or foxes and coyotes, but frankly it's a little on the light side for animals that size. Remember, even if the animal must die so your livestock may live, you owe it a quick and humane death.

The .22 is a traditional gun for slaughtering livestock. In that situation, however, the animal must be penned under control, and the person performing the slaughter must take their time to put the bullet exactly through the skull in the right spot to reach the brain for an instant, painless death. That won't be possible when shooting a wild animal. When a steer goes wild and tries to trample you, or Ol' Yeller turns rabid and is coming at you, trust me: you'll want something a lot more powerful than a .22.

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob114.htmlNuttin' about shooting over a mile in that link...

I don't hunt much but I do live in hunting country. A .22 is most certainly a small game rifle. You would never try to take down large game at any distance with that caliber of weapon.

[Crispy]

I'm still confused and still don't have enough to say he did it. Still too many questions for me.

[tv4me]

Has it been determined whether or not Tim was shot outside? I've read conflicting reports. Some say he was called in the house by the boy who then shot him, and others say he was shot outside (one bullet going through the screen door) and left a trail of blood while he ran towards the house where he was killed. If Tim was shot outside the house, wouldn't this clear the boy, as he was supposedly inside the house while Tim was being shot outside? :shrug:

[LindaNJ1216]

But...were you Linda5NJ? Or Linda4NJ? Or Linda 3NJ? etc?

ummm yeah....geeesh...5 was way back on the MJ trial and you were?

[Crispy]

Has it been determined whether or not Tim was shot outside? I've read conflicting reports. Some say he was called in the house by the boy who then shot him, and others say he was shot outside (one bullet going through the screen door) and left a trail of blood while he ran towards the house where he was killed. If Tim was shot outside the house, wouldn't this clear the boy, as he was supposedly inside the house while Tim was being shot outside? :shrug:

From everything that I have read he was shot outside. jmo

[GentleBreeze]

If you can support a pros that does not hand over exculpatory evidence then yes, I would say that you are blindly supporting them.

Ocean...why do the think the "CPR" workers became involved only after the fact???

Because caseworkers are always notified and brought in once the juvenile is in the system to councel and meet with them. We heard none of this until they came on board and the District Attorney has the authority to get that information when it pertains to a murder case.

I think the Associated Press is still one of the most honest reporters and they validate their stories. They said that no complaint was ever made with CPR on this boy. Also if it were beforehand CPS would not stand by and not notify the parents that he was making a threat against them.

So imo everything points to the caseworkers meeting with this boy afterward and this is what he told them. I don't think it is all he told them but a snippet of it.

imoo

[Kara]

ummm yeah....geeesh...5 was way back on the MJ trial and you were?My location gives obvious clues.... (or so I thought) I started here as blondekj and became KaraokeDiva. I had a very short life as Judybee and have been Kara since...

[Kara]

Because caseworkers are always notified and brought in once the juvenile is in the system to councel and meet with them. We heard none of this until they came on board and the District Attorney has the authority to get that information when it pertains to a murder case.

I think the Associated Press is still one of the most honest reporters and they validate their stories. They said that no complaint was ever made with CPR on this boy. Also if it were beforehand CPS would not stand by and not notify the parents that he was making a threat against them.

So imo everything points to the caseworkers meeting with this boy afterward and this is what he told them. I don't think it is all he told them but a snippet of it.

imoo
An AP story that there was no CPS history prior to the killings would carry a lot of weight with me. Could you link me to that story?

TIA:seeya:

[GentleBreeze]

Has it been determined whether or not Tim was shot outside? I've read conflicting reports. Some say he was called in the house by the boy who then shot him, and others say he was shot outside (one bullet going through the screen door) and left a trail of blood while he ran towards the house where he was killed. If Tim was shot outside the house, wouldn't this clear the boy, as he was supposedly inside the house while Tim was being shot outside? :shrug:

He was shot outside and died on the front porch with his head resting up against the partially opened metal screen door.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

An AP story that there was no CPS history prior to the killings would carry a lot of weight with me. Could you link me to that story?

TIA:seeya:

I could probably do it. There sure are enough articles out there that said the very same thing. I think a lot of these sites uses the AP articles.

I will look tonight or in the morning and come back and give you the link.

imoo

[Kara]

Ocean, since you're back posting again tonight, could you support your positon that a .22 can shoot over a mile? (even inaccurately, much less with any accuracy...)

[Kara]

I could probably do it. There sure are enough articles out there that said the very same thing. I think a lot of these sites uses the AP articles.

I will look tonight or in the morning and come back and give you the link.

imooThx...I will keep this thread open in my browser so I can be sure to not miss your response in the morning.:seeya:

[Kara]

I am a bit confused about something. If Tim could hear the boy calling him from inside the house, how did he not hear the shots? The neighbors across the street (40 yards away) heard the shots and called 911, I am confused as to how Tim could be outside (smoking?) or in his car talking on the cell phone with his wife. Also, if the wife heard the child's voice from inside the house, how did she not hear shots fired either?:shrug:
It might have been a magical, miracal .22....

Or maybe this boy had a surprisingly loud voice that was more piercing than a gunshot????

[GentleBreeze]

I knew that was Ocean. :rolleyes: How many times has she been banned now?

Twice. Joined in 2002

Oceanblueeyes
Jadedblueeyes

Anything else you would like to know?

[Crispy]

I am a bit confused about something. If Tim could hear the boy calling him from inside the house, how did he not hear the shots? The neighbors across the street (40 yards away) heard the shots and called 911, I am confused as to how Tim could be outside (smoking?) or in his car talking on the cell phone with his wife. Also, if the wife heard the child's voice from inside the house, how did she not hear shots fired either?:shrug:

I think that's where the story gets clouded IMO. Nobody knows if the boy was in or out of the house when he called Tim or if he even did. Who knows? It would help to see some statements made by Tim's wife and even the neighbors.

[Kara]

Twice. Joined in 2002

Oceanblueeyes
Jadedblueeyes

Anything else you would like to know?
Coincidentally, you and I were both last banned in the same month/year...or at least our registration dates would indicate such. lol

[GentleBreeze]

Thx...I will keep this thread open in my browser so I can be sure to not miss your response in the morning.:seeya:

This is the first one I found. There are numerous ones.

But this came from the one who would absolutely know if CPR had ever had a complaint. The District Attorney is the only one that has a right to see this information when it pertains to a criminal case whether it be a victim or a defendant.



http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/11/09/america/Child-Charged-Optional.php

[Dallasnc]

Was it mentioned in the court documents about the 2 911 calls or from a news report? I would like to research this again. My recall (which is not very good) was from the court documents, that the report of hearing gun shots came from questioning the neighbors. TIA

[GentleBreeze]

Coincidentally, you and I were both last banned in the same month/year...or at least our registration dates would indicate such. lol

Good month and year for banning, I guess. :biggrin:

[GentleBreeze]

Was it mentioned in the court documents about the 2 911 calls or from a news report? I would like to research this again. My recall (which is not very good) was from the court documents, that the report of hearing gun shots came from questioning the neighbors. TIA

You may be right Dallas. I have read so much but I thought the officers went there to get their statements about the shots they heard.

imoo

[Justice_Dawg]

Twice. Joined in 2002

Oceanblueeyes
Jadedblueeyes

Anything else you would like to know?

Yeah, who really shot VR and TR?

[Kara]

This is the first one I found. There are numerous ones.

But this came from the one who would absolutely know if CPR had ever had a complaint. The District Attorney is the only one that has a right to see this information when it pertains to a criminal case whether it be a victim or a defendant.



http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/11/09/america/Child-Charged-Optional.php
Thanks...is this the sentence you are relying upon?

The boy had no disciplinary record in school, and no complaints were filed with Arizona Child Protective Services, prosecutors said.

That isn't real clear to me...whether there was no complaint filed againt the child or if there was no record involving the child (as a victim).........

[Kara]

Yeah, who really shot VR and TR?What about JR? Or are you to young to appreciate that reference?
:biggrin:

[steffaroob4]

I am a bit confused about something. If Tim could hear the boy calling him from inside the house, how did he not hear the shots? The neighbors across the street (40 yards away) heard the shots and called 911, I am confused as to how Tim could be outside (smoking?) or in his car talking on the cell phone with his wife. Also, if the wife heard the child's voice from inside the house, how did she not hear shots fired either?:shrug:

I know, that part is just weird... I need some evidence before I decide what happened. There is no reason for the ballistics NOT to be back yet.

[Justice_Dawg]

Thanks...is this the sentence you are relying upon?



That isn't real clear to me...whether there was no complaint filed againt the child or if there was no record involving the child (as a victim).........

I thought the same thing. :)

[GentleBreeze]

Thanks...is this the sentence you are relying upon?



That isn't real clear to me...whether there was no complaint filed against the child or if there was no record involving the child (as a victim).........

It would mean the Child Protective Service has no complaints concerning the child, period. CPS protects children. Complaints against children as if someone reported a complaint about mistreatment or abuse of the child. The CPS in Arizona had no complaints concerning this boy.

[LindaNJ1216]

Do you mind showing us where an 8 year old has ever been validly diagnosed as a psychopath?
New References Recently Added to the Site
Psychopathic traits in nursing and criminal justice majors: A pilot study. ... in young children with concurrent callous–unemotional traits: can the ...
www.hare.org/references/new.html - Cached
Robert Hare's Biography


you can start here

Robert Hare's Biography
... the FBI and the RCMP, sits on the Research Advisory Board of the new FBI Child ... instrument used to screen for psychopathic traits and behaviors, and a book, ...
www.hare.org/welcome/bio.html - Cached

[LindaNJ1216]

Do you mind showing us where an 8 year old has ever been validly diagnosed as a psychopath?

oh..and i said have TRAITS

[GentleBreeze]

ROTFLMAO

A mile? For a .22??

You must have different miles down in your part of the country....

Around here there are more than 5200 feet in a mile...yet the suggested distance for sighting a .22 is more like 150 feet.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071116081955AAJNyFG


I would hate for you to be shooting around me. LOL

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_far_can_a_.22_caliber_rifle_bullet_travel

[phredd4]

http://www.wmicentral.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20193700&dept_id=505965&brd=2264&pag=461

Has the father been married 3 times? The orbit list Vincent having a son in St. Johns and a daughter in Tucson.

Maybe so, but I'm surprised they even posted the 8 yr old's real name. I know it was obviously printed on his obituary, but I thought they might black it out for publication on the web.

[bookie]

What about JR? Or are you to young to appreciate that reference?
:biggrin:



Does it make me old if I got it? :tongue:

I don't think the neighbors hearing the gunshots was from a 911 call. IIRC that infor came from the female cop questioning people when she canvassed the neighborhood after getting the call.

I added that here so that I would be on topic btw.