8 year old accused of double murder

[Kether]

Have they already determined the trajectories for sure? For instance, that most of the shots came from inside the house?
Because, I thought those were only the theory of how it happened, that LE had regarding their assumption the boy shot him, and on the basis of Tim's wife stating the boy was calling Tim inside.

No I don't live there, but I'll goggle it and check the photos.

That is the problem, I think most, including myself, have made massive assumptions based on what LE has released to the media. We don't know anything for sure about the angles or directions in which the shots were fired. I haven't read a single article that pointed it out. So, you have made me realize that even I have made assumptions and created theories out of them. Sheesh, we need more information. If anyone has links that points out this info please post it.

[Kether]

The lack of concern for the protection of children is just shocking to me! Why won't the courts take care of the legal issues (termination of parental rights) right away while prosecuting the woman who killed her other child and abused the one you speak of. As soon as she was convicted - while all the necessary people are there , lawyers, judges, social service or whatever; the status of the remaining child should have been settled right away.... why would they leave the termination of parental rights to later - if you can afford it? It needs to be part of the final resolution of the case. Its ridiculous!
We have murderers on death row and/or serving life sentences trying to assert their "parental rights" and draining funds from the families caring for the children; fighting to protect the kids. :flamemad:

And in this situation all the parties need to be thoroughly investigated. The grandparents sound nutty to me - and why would a new stepmom be spanking an 8 yrs old? Or making any decisions about what is best for him? What a mess!

This mess has been done by the same people investigating this crime. So, am I to trust what they have to say about this child? I think I will wait on the evidence, before I jump the gun and scream guilty, as they have done. I thought police were to protect and serve, apparently children is an exception of the rule. If an adult would have done this, would the interrogation tape been on tv in just a matter of days. Would they have the adult killer's grandmother in the media saying she knew he was capable of it? I could go on and on, but hopefully you get the picture. It seems the police were much more harsh in regards to this case to justifiy their decisions. They must paint this child as a monster to protect their behinds, nevermind, this is a kid and the evidence isn't all in as of yet. Unbelievable.

[blue bird]

The lack of concern for the protection of children is just shocking to me! Why won't the courts take care of the legal issues (termination of parental rights) right away while prosecuting the woman who killed her other child and abused the one you speak of. As soon as she was convicted - while all the necessary people are there , lawyers, judges, social service or whatever; the status of the remaining child should have been settled right away.... why would they leave the termination of parental rights to later - if you can afford it? It needs to be part of the final resolution of the case. Its ridiculous!
We have murderers on death row and/or serving life sentences trying to assert their "parental rights" and draining funds from the families caring for the children; fighting to protect the kids. :flamemad:

And in this situation all the parties need to be thoroughly investigated. The grandparents sound nutty to me - and why would a new stepmom be spanking an 8 yrs old? Or making any decisions about what is best for him? What a mess!

Even crazier, in our situation, was that she gave birth to the BF's son while in jail. That baby was put in foster care and the state terminated her rights for not being a fit parent but did not tell us about those proceedings, until after the fact. But for the surviving child that was abused, those rights were not terminated. :confused:
We honestly don't have the resources to do it ourselves. She is getting free legal counsel through the a college that helps parolees (she is trying to get visitation & get her meager child support payments to us dropped). Go figure!

I don't like the fact the the step mom in this case was doling out spankings but perhaps it was the lesser of two evils. :shrug:

[Kether]

Even crazier, in our situation, was that she gave birth to the BF's son while in jail. That baby was put in foster care and the state terminated her rights for not being a fit parent but did not tell us about those proceedings, until after the fact. But for the surviving child that was abused, those rights were not terminated. :confused:
We honestly don't have the resources to do it ourselves. She is getting free legal counsel through the a college that helps parolees (she is trying to get visitation & get her meager child support payments to us dropped). Go figure!

I don't like the fact the the step mom in this case was doling out spankings but perhaps it was the lesser of two evils. :shrug:

What? OMG! How could the mother NOT have her rights terminated for the surviving child? This is insanity.

[blue bird]

What? OMG! How could the mother NOT have her rights terminated for the surviving child? This is insanity.


Well, there seems to be a lot of insanity to go around! Just look at this case.

Has bond even been discussed? If so, I must have missed it. Why can't he get bailed out?

[GentleBreeze]

At that point, she should have been a suspect. Don't you think?

Maybe that is why they didn't want any family members in the room with him.

imoo

[blue bird]

Maybe that is why they didn't want any family members in the room with him.

imoo

At that point with his one parent dead on the other out of state, he should have been appointed a guardian ad litum and and placed in emergency foster care. When my step son was killed and the bio mother was being question and medically monitored, and before they notified my husband, his daughter was placed in emergency foster care in the meantime. They did not find cause to interrogate, in mean, question her at that very moment. They made sure her immediate needs were being met first.

[GentleBreeze]

Have they already determined the trajectories for sure? For instance, that most of the shots came from inside the house?
Because, I thought those were only the theory of how it happened, that LE had regarding their assumption the boy shot him, and on the basis of Tim's wife stating the boy was calling Tim inside.

No I don't live there, but I'll goggle it and check the photos.

I don't know if they are back yet. Usually they will send in State or Federal experts to determine that. It will not be released though until the trial, I wouldn't think. But they will know once the trajectory is completed. Even if the shots were at a downward or upward angle or shot at a left or right angle or straight on.

The blood spatter expert can also tell a lot from the scene.

I like to see them recreate the scene and show where the victims were in correlation to where the shooter was at each time they fired.

It is fascinating.

imoo

[Kether]

Maybe that is why they didn't want any family members in the room with him.

imoo

Uh huh, and that is why they let her come into the room after the interrogation? Yeah, they were really making sure the step mom wasn't involved in any way. :rolleyes: If anything it sounds as if they were following up on things the step mom had told them. The kid didn't have a chance if this were the case.

[GentleBreeze]

At that point with his one parent dead on the other out of state, he should have been appointed a guardian ad litum and and placed in emergency foster care. When my step son was killed and the bio mother was being question and medically monitored, and before they notified my husband, his daughter was placed in emergency foster care in the meantime. They did not find cause to interrogate, in mean, question her at that very moment. They made sure her immediate needs were being met first.

I think they didn't interview him until 19 hours later.

I really think they thought he knew who the killer was and they needed to know that information quickly. They said they were worried about his safety because they thought he was an eye witness. No one at this time knew who exactly the killer was.

I remember LE spoke with the Winkler children the night that MW was arrested in Alabama.

imoo

[VC2]

Well, there seems to be a lot of insanity to go around! Just look at this case.

Has bond even been discussed? If so, I must have missed it. Why can't he get bailed out?

I said something stunk at the very beginning of this case, and its been proven imo.

CNN just announced the prosecutor is wlling to drop ALL charges IF the mental health evaluation comes back ok.

now tell me..first of all they drop charges against the fathers murder (which makes me think serious abuse or else why drop them) and now they will drop the charge for the roommates murder.

doesn't this say there is something really funky going on in that house and it wasn't the boy? I have no link bc it was just on cnn with Don Lemon as the anchor.

[secrets]

My God, I hope it is true.

[Kether]

I said something stunk at the very beginning of this case, and its been proven imo.

CNN just announced the prosecutor is wlling to drop ALL charges IF the mental health evaluation comes back ok.

now tell me..first of all they drop charges against the fathers murder (which makes me think serious abuse or else why drop them) and now they will drop the charge for the roommates murder.

doesn't this say there is something really funky going on in that house and it wasn't the boy? I have no link bc it was just on cnn with Don Lemon as the anchor.

I hope this is true. It is about time someone made some sense in regards to this case.

[Kether]

I think they didn't interview him until 19 hours later.

I really think they thought he knew who the killer was and they needed to know that information quickly. They said they were worried about his safety because they thought he was an eye witness. No one at this time knew who exactly the killer was.

I remember LE spoke with the Winkler children the night that MW was arrested in Alabama.

imoo

You think that they thought. That is the first hurdle to cross. Go watch CNN.

[GentleBreeze]

I said something stunk at the very beginning of this case, and its been proven imo.

CNN just announced the prosecutor is wlling to drop ALL charges IF the mental health evaluation comes back ok.

now tell me..first of all they drop charges against the fathers murder (which makes me think serious abuse or else why drop them) and now they will drop the charge for the roommates murder.

doesn't this say there is something really funky going on in that house and it wasn't the boy? I have no link bc it was just on cnn with Don Lemon as the anchor.


That is not exactly what the DA said.

Here is the actual motion.

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/STATES%20REPLY%20IN%20SUPPORT%20OF%20ITS%20MOTION% 20TO%20DISMISS.pdf

Imo if he is found incompetent because of his age then the DA will dismiss the charges in juvenile court and try him at a later date when his age will not be a factor.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

You think that they thought. That is the first hurdle to cross. Go watch CNN.

Go watch CNN? For what?

imoo

[Justice_Dawg]

She said he called her when he got home from work everyday. He was not on the phone when shot. He hung up saying he had to go see what the boy wanted.
Yes, calling his wife everyday after work. And sleeping with his girlfriend every night.
Lying is something one must do when cheating.
He could have told his wife anything, she was 200 miles away.
Great Guy! :seeya:

[secrets]

So, maybe the lab reports are in, what do you think?
If they had enough evidence, they would have hanged him if they could. Maybe this is an attempt to avoid civil suite?
If they drop the charges now, than they don't need to present the evidence, or do they? Can we see what they have?

[GentleBreeze]

Yes, calling his wife everyday after work. And sleeping with his girlfriend every night.
Lying is something one must do when cheating.
He could have told his wife anything, she was 200 miles away.
Great Guy! :seeya:

Yes, unfortunately a lot of women and men cheat on their spouses.

Mrs. Romans never said he loved her but she did say she loved him. That doesn't take away though his love for his daughters. Divorce is way too common these days but mommas and daddies still love their children deeply. A divorce doesn't change that love imo.

imoo

[Justice_Dawg]

I said something stunk at the very beginning of this case, and its been proven imo.

CNN just announced the prosecutor is wlling to drop ALL charges IF the mental health evaluation comes back ok.

now tell me..first of all they drop charges against the fathers murder (which makes me think serious abuse or else why drop them) and now they will drop the charge for the roommates murder.

doesn't this say there is something really funky going on in that house and it wasn't the boy? I have no link bc it was just on cnn with Don Lemon as the anchor.

Prosecutors offer plea deal to 8-year-old suspect
By BOB CHRISTIE – 33 minutes ago

PHOENIX (AP) — Prosecutors have offered a plea deal to an 8-year-old boy charged with murder in the shooting deaths of his father and another man in their Arizona home.

Complete details of the offer aren't spelled out in a court filing posted Saturday on the Apache County Superior Court's Web site.

But Apache County Attorney Chriss Candelaria writes that he has "tendered a plea offer to the juvenile's attorneys that would resolve all the charges in the juvenile court contingent on the results of the mental health evaluations."

Candelaria was responding to a defense motion seeking to block him from dropping one of two first-degree murder charges the boy is facing for the Nov. 5 shooting deaths of his father, 29-year-old Vincent Romero, and 39-year-old Timothy Romans
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iG_nB7rdOr3TiaL5ph3YDR5qNNTAD94ORUR82

Link won't stay long. It is an AP news link.

[Kether]

That is not exactly what the DA said.

Here is the actual motion.

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/STATES%20REPLY%20IN%20SUPPORT%20OF%20ITS%20MOTION% 20TO%20DISMISS.pdf

Imo if he is found incompetent because of his age then the DA will dismiss the charges in juvenile court and try him at a later date when his age will not be a factor.

imoo

The way I read the document it was referring to his competence and about restoring his competence. Why would that even be brought up if he wasn't abused. And charges would have to be refiled if this is the case. So basically the document told me that they don't even know if he did this and that if he did, there is certain things involved that drove him to this, why else would they dismiss, if this wasn't the case? The child is not the monster LE lead everyone to believe.

[GentleBreeze]

So, maybe the lab reports are in, what do you think?
If they had enough evidence, they would have hanged him if they could. Maybe this is an attempt to avoid civil suite?
If they drop the charges now, than they don't need to present the evidence, or do they? Can we see what they have?

They are trying to do the right thing. Read the motion...the DA is very clear about wanting justice for the victims and giving the child a fair trial.

Just because he dismisses in juvenile court does not mean he can never try him in another court when he is older.

Lets see if the defense attorney bites. He is already suspicious and has filed his own protest to remove the one count murder charges on Romero.

imoo

[VC2]

I hope this is true. It is about time someone made some sense in regards to this case.

the motion that GB referenced says that the state has offered a plea agreement that will resolve ALL CHARGES contingent on the mental health eval. CNN says ithe prosecutor will drop the charges contingent. Maybe they know more details about the plea arrangement than is in the motion? :shrug: Plus they keep talking about the child getting help for the grief and remorse he undoubtedly feels...this does not sound as if they plan to refile a thing.

[Justice_Dawg]

They are trying to do the right thing. Read the motion...the DA is very clear about wanting justice for the victims and giving the child a fair trial.

Just because he dismisses in juvenile court does not mean he can never try him in another court when he is older.

Lets see if the defense attorney bites. He is already suspicious and has filed his own protest to remove the one count murder charges on Romero.

imooIf dismissed with prejudice, it can never be refiled. That is double jeopardy in any court.

[Kether]

the motion that GB referenced says that the state has offered a plea agreement that will resolve ALL CHARGES contingent on the mental health eval. CNN says ithe prosecutor will drop the charges contingent. Maybe they know more details about the plea arrangement than is in the motion? :shrug: Plus they keep talking about the child getting help for the grief and remorse he undoubtedly feels...this does not sound as if they plan to refile a thing.

I am totally confused. They go after this kid with everything they have, and now this. There has to be more going on and they are not releasing that information. Are they just covering their behinds for a huge mistake or have they found out what this boy has been through with his father. I am thinking they KNOW for a fact whether he done this or not and are skirting around the issue.

[secrets]

They want to drop both charges without prejudice, before the evaluation comes that this child is free to walk out, wright? He could be found incompetent for trial, and can't be competent in 240 days, so he walks free without treatment and is free to go. So they offer a plea to the defense to drop both charges without prejudice, so they could eventually prosecute him?
I think they have no solid evidence against him?
Covering their beh**ds.

[VC2]

Prosecutors offer plea deal to 8-year-old suspect
By BOB CHRISTIE – 33 minutes ago

.

Thanks JD. The motion itself is a response to the defenses for dismissal with prejudice and no where do i see it saying it will refile, just gives legaleze on why its possible.

The really important part is what you quoted. A plea deal will negate any possibility of refiling and if it is something like therapy once the mental health eval comes back then essentially the charges are dropped. At the least they will be a non issue. They state that a civil commitment doesnt make sense, and they state that juvie doesn't either given his age, so yeah i see this plea deal as a home with sustained therapy or something close to it.

That said, there is no way this would happen if they thought they had a solid case of first degree murder on either charge. something stinks and the DA knows it.

remember his response to the motion has to cover the law rathr than the facts bc it can be used in every other court case as an example. Of course he will pay some sort of mouth piece to justice for the "victims" even if there is severe abuse proven.

The way the da is playing this says they know something is wrong and i repeat, its not the 8 year old.

imo

[Hey Paula]

Plea Deal Offer To Charged Boy, 8:

http://www.kpho.com/news/18170747/detail.html

[Justice_Dawg]

Thanks JD. The motion itself is a response to the defenses for dismissal with prejudice and no where do i see it saying it will refile, just gives legaleze on why its possible.

The really important part is what you quoted. A plea deal will negate any possibility of refiling and if it is something like therapy once the mental health eval comes back then essentially the charges are dropped. At the least they will be a non issue. They state that a civil commitment doesnt make sense, and they state that juvie doesn't either given his age, so yeah i see this plea deal as a home with sustained therapy or something close to it.

That said, there is no way this would happen if they thought they had a solid case of first degree murder on either charge. something stinks and the DA knows it.

remember his response to the motion has to cover the law rathr than the facts bc it can be used in every other court case as an example. Of course he will pay some sort of mouth piece to justice for the "victims" even if there is severe abuse proven.

The way the da is playing this says they know something is wrong and i repeat, its not the 8 year old.

imo
EXACTLY!
We think a lot alike. :beer:

[Kether]

Thanks JD. The motion itself is a response to the defenses for dismissal with prejudice and no where do i see it saying it will refile, just gives legaleze on why its possible.

The really important part is what you quoted. A plea deal will negate any possibility of refiling and if it is something like therapy once the mental health eval comes back then essentially the charges are dropped. At the least they will be a non issue. They state that a civil commitment doesnt make sense, and they state that juvie doesn't either given his age, so yeah i see this plea deal as a home with sustained therapy or something close to it.

That said, there is no way this would happen if they thought they had a solid case of first degree murder on either charge. something stinks and the DA knows it.

remember his response to the motion has to cover the law rathr than the facts bc it can be used in every other court case as an example. Of course he will pay some sort of mouth piece to justice for the "victims" even if there is severe abuse proven.

The way the da is playing this says they know something is wrong and i repeat, its not the 8 year old.

imo

Look what this child has been through. You are saying you believe they know he is innocent and yet they are proceeding like this to cover their own behinds? Good grief, what has happened to our justice system?:mad:

[VC2]

VC, I love ya to death, you are one of my top five favorite posters on this forum, but if this were your little boy or girl, would you trust the prosecutor on this plea thing? And more importantly, would you be willing to take that chance?


It depends on what the plea deal is. The refiling issue is a red herring if there is a plea because it is then adjudicated and cannot be refiled. Verdict and sentence are written.

IF the plea is 2 or 5 years of counselling with a registered child psychiatrist or pyschologist in return for a guilty plea i think i would take it even if i was not sure the child was guilty. It gets him home and the therapy is essential whether he did it or not given the child abuse that has been visited upon him since the murders - isolation etc. let alone seeing the blood and the deaths.

so long as it was written in stone then its not a question of trusting the prosecution, the case will have been finalized by the judge but i would need to know the judge was on board first.

Does that make sense? Rather than keeping him for months in isolation this is one time thati would get him out and then deal with the issue of innocence afterwards during therapy.

[Justice_Dawg]

Plea Deal Offer To Charged Boy, 8:

http://www.kpho.com/news/18170747/detail.html

We knew about this on Nov. 26th. I guess it's news to the news. :tongue:

[bkwits]

IMO, they aren't sure of his guilt (I mean Pros.) or more likely, they want more time to prepare a case.

[bkwits]

It depends on what the plea deal is. The refiling issue is a red herring if there is a plea because it is then adjudicated and cannot be refiled. Verdict and sentence are written.

IF the plea is 2 or 5 years of counselling with a registered child psychiatrist or pyschologist in return for a guilty plea i think i would take it even if i was not sure the child was guilty. It gets him home and the therapy is essential whether he did it or not given the child abuse that has been visited upon him since the murders - isolation etc. let alone seeing the blood and the deaths.

so long as it was written in stone then its not a question of trusting the prosecution, the case will have been finalized by the judge but i would need to know the judge was on board first.

Does that make sense? Rather than keeping him for months in isolation this is one time thati would get him out and then deal with the issue of innocence afterwards during therapy.

What if he didn't do it?
Wouldn't the "murderer" label always stick on him?

[Justice_Dawg]

IMO, they aren't sure of his guilt (I mean Pros.) or more likely, they want more time to prepare a case.

I am betting the barrel of the chipmunk gun didn't come back with tissue in it, which means if it was shot at close range, and they say it was, it would have blowback in it.
No doubt about that.

JMHO :hat:

[GentleBreeze]

If dismissed with prejudice, it can never be refiled. That is double jeopardy in any court.

Yes, that is right but the DA has filed his motion and boldly attached Without Prejudice and said if the Judge was going to grant motion With Prejudice he would withdraw his motion to drop count one.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

The legal mumbo jumbo in that paper is pretty hard to decipher. However, I have to tend to agree with you, I don't think the prosecutor is looking to just let this case go away. I think what they are trying to say is that they want the right to go after him again when he is a little older so they can nail his hide to the wall. If they just dismissed this case or were okay with a clean dismissal, they would look like a bunch of keystone kops and the entire country would vilify this town. They would all have to kiss their law enforcement jobs good bye, too, because someone would end up suing them down to their Fruit of the Loom boxers.

I believe this boy is innocent. And Children do not belong in jail.

I also think the DA is not going to let this case go. It was one of the worst double homicides in their history. It is his sworn duty to seek justice for the victims. He must do what he was voted in to do whether others may like it or not. He is the only voice for the victims.

imoo

[secrets]

What happened with the "premeditated", "cold" "killer"?
Now they want to help the child to overcome his grief?

Yes, that is right but the DA has filed his motion and boldly attached Without Prejudice and said if the Judge was going to grant motion With Prejudice he would withdraw his motion to drop count one.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

Prosecutors offer plea deal to 8-year-old suspect
By BOB CHRISTIE – 33 minutes ago

PHOENIX (AP) — Prosecutors have offered a plea deal to an 8-year-old boy charged with murder in the shooting deaths of his father and another man in their Arizona home.

Complete details of the offer aren't spelled out in a court filing posted Saturday on the Apache County Superior Court's Web site.

But Apache County Attorney Chriss Candelaria writes that he has "tendered a plea offer to the juvenile's attorneys that would resolve all the charges in the juvenile court contingent on the results of the mental health evaluations."

Candelaria was responding to a defense motion seeking to block him from dropping one of two first-degree murder charges the boy is facing for the Nov. 5 shooting deaths of his father, 29-year-old Vincent Romero, and 39-year-old Timothy Romans
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iG_nB7rdOr3TiaL5ph3YDR5qNNTAD94ORUR82

Link won't stay long. It is an AP news link.

The part I have highlighted is what is telling imo. "in the juvenile court"

[Justice_Dawg]

Yes, that is right but the DA has filed his motion and boldly attached Without Prejudice and said if the Judge was going to grant motion With Prejudice he would withdraw his motion to drop count one.

imo

Now that makes sense. NOT. DA is drawing at straws here.

If the Judge grants the motion With Prejudice (sides with defense filing) The motion is ruled on and cannot be withdrawn.

What are they thinking?? hammer

[GentleBreeze]

What happened with the "premeditated", "cold" "killer"?
Now they want to help the child to overcome his grief?

DAs aren't hard hearted, secrets. They have a job to do and yes, he does want the boy to come to terms with this and find out why he would do such a horrible thing that is so unlike millions of other 8 year olds.

imo

[steffaroob4]

I just can't figure out that gunshot in the screen door (http://www.postchronicle.com/images/articles/8yearoldmurderer.jpg). It looks like that door opens from right to left, in the direction of the driveway. Why would someone walk behind the door to shoot, if the shot was made after he was on the ground??

[Justice_Dawg]

The part I have highlighted is what is telling imo. "in the juvenile court"

They are saying he will never be tried as an adult.
IMO- That is the plea bargain.

Any bet takers?? :biggrin:

[secrets]

So, this plea is actually no trial in adult court ever, few years of therapy, maybe in institution, but not juvie?
Do I understand correctly? (Language barrier, I live in Europe, non-english speaking country).
They are saying he will never be tried as an adult.
IMO- That is the plea bargain.

Any bet takers?? :biggrin:

[Justice_Dawg]

I just can't figure out that gunshot in the screen door (http://www.postchronicle.com/images/articles/8yearoldmurderer.jpg). It looks like that door opens from right to left, in the direction of the driveway. Why would someone walk behind the door to shoot, if the shot was made after he was on the ground??

From what we know now, every shot at Tim was from behind him. He has a shot in the back of his arm, he has a shot in his back and then the shots in the head.

Doesn't fit the "theory" huh?

[Hey Paula]

We knew about this on Nov. 26th. I guess it's news to the news. :tongue:

LOL! I searched Google News because FNC just mentioned the plea deal on TV.

[GentleBreeze]

They are saying he will never be tried as an adult.
IMO- That is the plea bargain.

Any bet takers?? :biggrin:


Not me. :biggrin:

[GentleBreeze]

From what we know now, every shot at Tim was from behind him. He has a shot in the back of his arm, he has a shot in his back and then the shots in the head.

Doesn't fit the "theory" huh?


Did it say Tim was shot in the back? I thought that was Vincent who was shot in the back and in his elbow and two shots to the head?

I thought Tim was shot in the arm, chest and head.

I thought they also said Tim was shot in the head where his head rested against the screen door?

imoo

[secrets]

"Romans was shot six times, sustaining eight wounds with one bullet hitting him in the arm, two in the chest and three in the back of his head.", So, at least 3 times from behind while he runs to the house. Did it say Tim was shot in the back? I thought that was Vincent who was shot in the back and in his elbow and two shots to the head?

I thought Tim was shot in the arm, chest and head.

I thought they also said Tim was shot in the head where his head rested against the screen door?

imoo

[steffaroob4]

From what we know now, every shot at Tim was from behind him. He has a shot in the back of his arm, he has a shot in his back and then the shots in the head.

Doesn't fit the "theory" huh?

Even the arm shot??

You know, it is like someone was shooting from the driveway, towards the house, instead of someone coming out of the house. Maybe Tim was running towards the house to get a gun from the house??? That is running away from a shooter.
With the casings being so close to the body, there has to be blood spatter in the boy's clothing, if he did the shooting.

[GentleBreeze]

I just can't figure out that gunshot in the screen door (http://www.postchronicle.com/images/articles/8yearoldmurderer.jpg). It looks like that door opens from right to left, in the direction of the driveway. Why would someone walk behind the door to shoot, if the shot was made after he was on the ground??

From what LE said the shot was almost where Tim's head rested at the door that was part of the way open. The shot was fired and hit the bottom of the metal screen and went into the inside frame at the bottom.

IIRC the officer said it looked like someone fired at Tim's head and missed. It could have happened too if the bullet passed through and out of the skull and went through the door.

imoo

[Justice_Dawg]

So, this plea is actually no trial in adult court ever, few years of therapy, maybe in institution, but not juvie?
Do I understand correctly? (Language barrier, I live in Europe, non-english speaking country).

If found incompetent to stand trial he would go to an institution for 240days max. If they say he still is not competent to stand trial after 240 days, it will be dismissed with prejudice.
That is AZ law from what a AZ judge said.
I'll go find the link. :D

[GentleBreeze]

"Romans was shot six times, sustaining eight wounds with one bullet hitting him in the arm, two in the chest and three in the back of his head.", So, at least 3 times from behind while he runs to the house.

I dont think that will prove to be correct. I think the three shots fired at the head was when he was already down and dying on the front porch.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

If found incompetent to stand trial he would go to an institution for 240days max. If they say he still is not competent to stand trial after 240 days, it will be dismissed with prejudice.
That is AZ law from what a AZ judge said.
I'll go find the link. :D


The DA quoted that part in his motion.

[secrets]

They would have noticed that immediately, wouldn't they?
I posted my theory on the shootings one or two pages back, it seems more realistic now. Even the arm shot??

You know, it is like someone was shooting from the driveway, towards the house, instead of someone coming out of the house. Maybe Tim was running towards the house to get a gun from the house??? That is running away from a shooter.
With the casings being so close to the body, there has to be blood spatter in the boy's clothing, if he did the shooting.

[Justice_Dawg]

Did it say Tim was shot in the back? I thought that was Vincent who was shot in the back and in his elbow and two shots to the head?

I thought Tim was shot in the arm, chest and head.

I thought they also said Tim was shot in the head where his head rested against the screen door?

imoo
I posted the info a few days ago, then I got it backwards today, you are right. VR was shot in the back.
Sorry :chicken:

[Justice_Dawg]

The DA quoted that part in his motion.

TY! :seeya:

[steffaroob4]

"Romans was shot six times, sustaining eight wounds with one bullet hitting him in the arm, two in the chest and three in the back of his head.", So, at least 3 times from behind while he runs to the house.

Ok, someone comes out of the house, shoots him in the arm that passes into the chest after it hits his arm, he moves towards them, making blood trail; he takes another shot into the chest, he falls to the ground, the screendoor is ajar; then three shots to the head, one the shooter has to walk behind an open screendoor to shoot it, to make tha hole.

[secrets]

I hope the lawyer can wait till the lab reports come regarding the plea. I'm sure they will try to pressure him to take the plea soon. Maybe that's why he said he is waiting for the two psychological reports before he makes a decision.

If found incompetent to stand trial he would go to an institution for 240days max. If they say he still is not competent to stand trial after 240 days, it will be dismissed with prejudice.
That is AZ law from what a AZ judge said.
I'll go find the link. :D

[steffaroob4]

I posted the info a few days ago, then I got it backwards today, you are right. VR was shot in the back.
Sorry :chicken:

Do we know which way the fathers head was facing, was he towards the stairs?

What is puzzling is that tv in the crime scene wasn't on, my kids always went straght to the video games or cartoons after school.

[Justice_Dawg]

Ok, someone comes out of the house, shoots him in the arm that passes into the chest after hots his arm, he moves towards them, making blood trail; he takes another shot into the chest, he falls to the ground, the screendoor is ajar; then three shots to the head, one the shooter has to walk behind an open screendoor to shoot it, to make tha hole.

We don't know where the casings were found. (If we did, it would tell us a lot more) They go around and around in the transcripts only to reveal one casing on the porch by Tim's head, didn't match the rest of the casings.

[Justice_Dawg]

Do we know which way the fathers head was facing, was he towards the stairs?

What is puzzling is that tv in the crime scene wasn't on, my kids always went straght to the video games or cartoons after school.

His head was on the top step.
He almost made it upstairs.
IMO- he knew he was being chased.

[secrets]

No, I have two versions, and the second is a shooter coming from the street, or near the street, I will try to find it now.
Ok, someone comes out of the house, shoots him in the arm that passes into the chest after it hits his arm, he moves towards them, making blood trail; he takes another shot into the chest, he falls to the ground, the screendoor is ajar; then three shots to the head, one the shooter has to walk behind an open screendoor to shoot it, to make tha hole.

[steffaroob4]

We don't know where the casings were found. (If we did, it would tell us a lot more) They go around and around in the transcripts only to reveal one casing on the porch by Tim's head, didn't match the rest of the casings.

Hmmm, by now they have to have the forensics on the bullets and casings back. I don't remember reading the casing next to Tim's head was different. I am having such a hard time with all the shots that were fired and everyone hit its mark. We need the crime scene reports.

[secrets]

Well, quoting myself. :tongue:

He is shot in the chest, he is near the car, goes for the gun, is shot in the hand, goes to the house while the shooter has one last chance to shoot him in the chest, after that he is shot two times from behind while running to the house, and one last time again close and from behind, maybe, lying down? So, yes he can be shot in the chest running from the shooter. The thing is we have nothing so far in form of lab report etc. But, they will know where he was hit from in the hand, only if they know where he was facing, the house, or the street, if there is nothing else to show how the bullet traveled. I am not expert here, it is just logic and speculation due to lack of key information.

[steffaroob4]

His head was on the top step.
He almost made it upstairs.
IMO- he knew he was being chased.

Oh, for some reason I thought he was in the hall, not on the stairs.

I just wonder if there was an older kid in that house screwing around with that gun. Was that 22 kept in the master bedroom?

[Justice_Dawg]

Hmmm, by now they have to have the forensics on the bullets and casings back. I don't remember reading the casing next to Tim's head was different. I am having such a hard time with all the shots that were fired and everyone hit its mark. We need the crime scene reports.

The casing next to Tim's head, in between his head and hand, was different.
It is in the transcripts. :read:

[steffaroob4]

Well, quoting myself. :tongue:

Thanks, I wanted to read it again. How does the shot get in the screen door with your theory?

[steffaroob4]

The casing next to Tim's head, in between his head and hand, was different.
It is in the transcripts. :read:

Thanks, I will read them again, I was up late when I was reading them.

[Justice_Dawg]

Thanks, I will read them again, I was up late when I was reading them.

Rodriguez testimony.

[secrets]

That one is trickyhammer
But, it came from the other weapon, so we have a second shooter, or was the close shot, so the shooter wouldn't get blood on him (I know I sound silly now). It could be also the one shot the boy said shot or was shot by accident on the forth video, if he ever had the gun that day.
Thanks, I wanted to read it again. How does the shot get in the screen door with your theory?

[Justice_Dawg]

Oh, for some reason I thought he was in the hall, not on the stairs.

I just wonder if there was an older kid in that house screwing around with that gun. Was that 22 kept in the master bedroom?

My theory on VR:

3 shots from behind first. (3 casing found on bottom steps)
Perp went to the top steps for final head shot. (1 casing found at the top of step)

[steffaroob4]

Rodriguez testimony.

Thanks, do we know if they drove to work together?

[steffaroob4]

My theory on VR:

3 shots from behind first. (3 casing found on bottom steps)
Perp went to the top steps for final head shot. (1 casing found at the top of step)

You know, it seems odd to me that a child would go for the head shots, that seems way beyond the hate for a child. I can see one or two shots in anger, but the over-kill seems like it would belong to someone that was an adult.

[secrets]

And also VR one head shot, TR THREE?
Why would the child shoot him more times than his father, if he was mad at his parents for spanking?:no:
You know, it seems odd to me that a child would go for the head shots, that seems way beyond the hate for a child. I can see one or two shots in anger, but the over-kill seems like it would belong to someone that was an adult.

[GentleBreeze]

You know, it seems odd to me that a child would go for the head shots, that seems way beyond the hate for a child. I can see one or two shots in anger, but the over-kill seems like it would belong to someone that was an adult.

He was taught to do head shots when he hunted wild game so the animal wouldn't suffer.

imoo

[Justice_Dawg]

Thanks, do we know if they drove to work together?

Only Tim's truck was there.

:shrug:

[GentleBreeze]

And also VR one head shot, TR THREE?
Why would the child shoot him more times than his father, if he was mad at his parents for spanking?:no:

Tim may not have died as quickly as VR.

imoo

[Justice_Dawg]

He was taught to do head shots when he hunted wild game so the animal wouldn't suffer.

imoo

Where did that come from? I never heard he was taught to do head shots. :confused:

[steffaroob4]

And also VR one head shot, TR THREE?
Why would the child shoot him more times than his father, if he was mad at his parents for spanking?:no:

That says there was a whole lot more hate towards Tim, to me. Wasn't he the foreman at the job?

[secrets]

One head shot is enough IMO.
Three - personal vendetta, or execution.
Tipical adult line of thinking (for hard criminals that is).
Tim may not have died as quickly as VR.

imoo

[steffaroob4]

He was taught to do head shots when he hunted wild game so the animal wouldn't suffer.

imoo

That doesn't make sense, hunters don't waste bullets, they are expensive, if you are an avid shooter. He was shooting small game, no head shots would have been needed. That is why hunters carry knives.
Besides the money shot on an animal is always the heart, I can tell after a life time of being around avid hunters, I have never seen or heard of any of them shooting any animal in the head.

[GentleBreeze]

I posted the info a few days ago, then I got it backwards today, you are right. VR was shot in the back.
Sorry :chicken:

LOL No need to be sorry. We have all read and posted so much it just blurs together.

Like ,secrets, just said that VR was shot once in the head and I thought he was shot twice in the head! My head is spinning. I am losing track of what happen to which one. lol

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

That doesn't make sense, hunters don't waste bullets, they are expensive, if you are an avid shooter. He was shooting small game, no head shots would have been needed. That is why hunters carry knives.

You mean they leave the wild game alive and just slit their throats?:chicken: No one I know does that. 22 bullets aren't that expensive.

imoo

[secrets]

I hope we have resolution quickly here before we all go :biggrin::biggrin:
LOL No need to be sorry. We have all read and posted so much it just blurs together.

Like ,secrets, just said that VR was shot once in the head and I thought he was shot twice in the head! My head is spinning. I am losing track of what happen to which one. lol

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

One head shot is enough IMO.
Three - personal vendetta, or execution.
Tipical adult line of thinking (for hard criminals that is).

I do think it was an execution, no doubt about it he want both of them dead as a door nail.

He said they were still shaking and quivering so maybe they didn't die as fast as he wanted.

imoo

[steffaroob4]

You mean they leave the wild game alive and just slit their throats?:chicken: No one I know does that. 22 bullets aren't that expensive.

imoo

No, just a knife to the heart, a bird you could go for the throat by cutting off the head. You don't teach a kid to do head shots, not a hunter, IMO. I have seen plenty of stuffed small game tropheys.

[Justice_Dawg]

ST. JOHNS – An 8-year-old Arizona boy was accused of double murder but 3TV has gotten word that the charges could be dropped.

3TV obtained court documents in which prosecutors say they do not want to prosecute the boy.

Prosecutors do not go into detail in reference to what the boy and his attorneys have been offered at this point in exchange for a guilty plea. (??)

3TV does know why they are trying to keep this case from going to trial. Prosecutors are concerned that the court could find the boy unfit to stand trial. The juvenile court system was designed for children who are at least 12 years old.

Since we are dealing with an 8-year-old, prosecutors are worried the court could rule that the boy is too young to understand the charges and the court proceedings and dismiss the case.

That, according to prosecutors in Apache County, would deny justice to the victims, their families and the public, all of whom have been impacted by these shocking murders in St Johns.

Prosecutors now say their goal is to strike a balance or a deal which would provide that justice and at the same time provide treatment and rehab which this boy desperately needs.

So again, prosecutors have offered a plea deal to the 8-year-old St. Johns boy charged with murdering his father and another man.

The details of the deal are not yet known but 3TV does know it hinges on the results of the boy's pending mental health examinations.

http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/stories/stjohns-local-news-112808-double-murder.10aacb9d.html

[GentleBreeze]

I hope we have resolution quickly here before we all go :biggrin::biggrin:


:biggrin: Agree.

[Justice_Dawg]

I do think it was an execution, no doubt about it he want both of them dead as a door nail.

He said they were still shaking and quivering so maybe they didn't die as fast as he wanted.

imoo

Let's let forensics tell the story. I am willing to wait. As of now NOTHING has been disclosed. :seeya:

MOO

[Justice_Dawg]

I hope we have resolution quickly here before we all go :biggrin::biggrin:

ITA! :lol:

[GentleBreeze]

No, just a knife to the heart, a bird you could go for the throat by cutting off the head. You don't teach a kid to do head shots, not a hunter, IMO. I have seen plenty of stuffed small game tropheys.

Ah, we don't trophy hunt ever so that may be the reason. We eat what we kill and head shots insures the meat is not bruised or bones shattered by the bullet.

People from this small rural area do hunt for their food.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Let's let forensics tell the story. I am willing to wait. As of now NOTHING has been disclosed. :seeya:

MOO

Yes, they need to hurry up, don't they know we are waiting?:D

[secrets]

Wonder if this is take now or never plea deal? I get that impression, that it has a time limit maybe.

[GentleBreeze]

That says there was a whole lot more hate towards Tim, to me. Wasn't he the foreman at the job?

I thought they said Vincent was some type of supervisor too.

imoo

[Justice_Dawg]

Yes, they need to hurry up, don't they know we are waiting?:D
:biggrin:
We need a leak about what the plea deal is. :cool:

[GentleBreeze]

Wonder if this is take now or never plea deal? I get that impression, that it has a time limit maybe.

It will have a time limit. In the juvenile system the case goes along at a much faster pace than adult court.

imoo

[Justice_Dawg]

I thought they said Vincent was some type of supervisor too.

imoo

Correct. :seeya:

[GentleBreeze]

:biggrin:
We need a leak about what the plea deal is. :cool:

Does juvey time so that the Judge can impose that he get rehabilitation and mental treatment?

[Justice_Dawg]

Does juvey time so that the Judge can impose that he get rehabilitation and mental treatment?

I don't think the defense can even answer a plea at this point. They have no forensics/ballistics discovery yet.

[secrets]

Depends what the results are from his ps. evaluation. If it says he can't be responsible due to his age, he will probably not be in juvie, but in some institution, or even at home, but he will definitely receive treatment. Does juvey time so that the Judge can impose that he get rehabilitation and mental treatment?

[Justice_Dawg]

Wonder if this is take now or never plea deal? I get that impression, that it has a time limit maybe.
Yeah, before the evaluations.
IMO- The DA is scrambling here.

[secrets]

I hope the defense lawyer knows his job, and does not just easily jump on this plea deal. I don't think the defense can even answer a plea at this point. They have no forensics/ballistics discovery yet.

[Justice_Dawg]

I hope the defense lawyer knows his job, and does not just easily jump on this plea deal.

He sure does know his job. I watched him in an interview on Jan.21st. He is very sharp.

[secrets]

Defense lawyer:
Although he is considering the offer, Brewer said he is unsure of his client's ability to understand the proceedings. At least two mental health evaluations are yet to be completed.

"It is going to be difficult to assess what (the boy) can or cannot enter into," Brewer said on Saturday. "But certainly we're looking at it."

Is he saying that before the evaluations, he is not sure his client could enter the plea, because he might not understand it? I think he is playing that card (I hope he can and he is).

[Justice_Dawg]

Defense lawyer:
Although he is considering the offer, Brewer said he is unsure of his client's ability to understand the proceedings. At least two mental health evaluations are yet to be completed.

"It is going to be difficult to assess what (the boy) can or cannot enter into," Brewer said on Saturday. "But certainly we're looking at it."

Is he saying that before the evaluations, he is not sure his client could enter the plea, because he might not understand it? I think he is playing that card (I hope he can and he is).Where did you find that you sly fox?

:chicken:

[secrets]

It is somewhere in the middle of this text.
http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story.aspx?content_id=ecb19025-94bf-4d7e-954d-76e8423a823a

[steffaroob4]

Wonder if this is take now or never plea deal? I get that impression, that it has a time limit maybe.

Sort of odd timing, on a holiday weekend. I wonder what it means.

[secrets]

Yes, it can be revoked.
It just crossed my mind that if the attorney takes the plea, in essence he is admitting that the boy is competent and can understand what is happening which would give them ammunition to take the offer back and try this kid as an adult.:shrug:

[Justice_Dawg]

It just crossed my mind that if the attorney takes the plea, in essence he is admitting that the boy is competent and can understand what is happening which would give them ammunition to take the offer back and try this kid as an adult.:shrug:

From Secrets Link:

Brewer said Saturday that the deal would resolve the case without it being transferred to adult court, although he declined to provide additional details.

[Justice_Dawg]

Yes, it can be revoked.

No matter how much they all talk, IMO there is NO WAY an 8 y. old will be tried as an adult. None.

Same county just denied a 12 yr old to be tried as an adult. (he committed the crime at age 11.)

[Justice_Dawg]

From Secrets link again: (Thanks Secrets!!)
Last lines

Defense attorney Ronald Wood told ABC15 Saturday, "It's probably a little early for a case like this, but you know, maybe they want to get rid of it and make it go away."

Brewer told ABC15 Saturday, "We still need some more information before we can really make an intelligent decision with regard to accepting that, like forensics, ballistics, DNA, fingerprints, things of that nature."

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story.aspx?content_id=ecb19025-94bf-4d7e-954d-76e8423a823a

[secrets]

Yey, they update it constantly, and it keeps getting better, and better. I so hope the boy is innocent.
That was added later, thanks JD.
From Secrets link again: (Thanks Secrets!!)
Last lines

Defense attorney Ronald Wood told ABC15 Saturday, "It's probably a little early for a case like this, but you know, maybe they want to get rid of it and make it go away."

Brewer told ABC15 Saturday, "We still need some more information before we can really make an intelligent decision with regard to accepting that, like forensics, ballistics, DNA, fingerprints, things of that nature."

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story.aspx?content_id=ecb19025-94bf-4d7e-954d-76e8423a823a

[secrets]

Brewer told ABC15 Saturday, "We still need some more information before we can really make an intelligent decision with regard to accepting that, like forensics, ballistics, DNA, fingerprints, things of that nature."
Is he mocking them?

[steffaroob4]

From Secrets link again: (Thanks Secrets!!)
Last lines

Defense attorney Ronald Wood told ABC15 Saturday, "It's probably a little early for a case like this, but you know, maybe they want to get rid of it and make it go away."

Brewer told ABC15 Saturday, "We still need some more information before we can really make an intelligent decision with regard to accepting that, like forensics, ballistics, DNA, fingerprints, things of that nature."

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story.aspx?content_id=ecb19025-94bf-4d7e-954d-76e8423a823a



WOW, the defense has NOTHING. That sure is odd, I wonder why they wouldn't include some evidence to make the bargain more of great thing to grab.

[secrets]

Is it normal not to have anything substantial after almost a month?

WOW, the defense has NOTHING. That sure is odd, I wonder why they wouldn't include some evidence to make the bargain more of great thing to grab.

[Justice_Dawg]

Yey, they update it constantly, and it keeps getting better, and better. I so hope the boy is innocent.
That was added later, thanks JD.

I have to bookmark that site. :seeya:

I have been asking to a while now how the state even has a case without forensics, ballistics, DNA, fingerprints, ect. reports back.

I really think an adult did this crime.

[secrets]

And it is a child in juvie. What is wrong with the world?
I have to bookmark that site. :seeya:

I have been asking to a while now how the state even has a case without forensics, ballistics, DNA, fingerprints, ect. reports back.

I really think an adult did this crime.

[Justice_Dawg]

Is it normal not to have anything substantial after almost a month?

No. Ususally 10-14 days tops. That would have been Nov 17-21.

Very telling IMO. :)

[Justice_Dawg]

And it is a child in juvie. What is wrong with the world?

A prosecutor doesn't care who is in prison/juvie. He wants a conviction. A Notch on his belt...no matter who it hurts. :cuss:

[GentleBreeze]

Depends what the results are from his ps. evaluation. If it says he can't be responsible due to his age, he will probably not be in juvie, but in some institution, or even at home, but he will definitely receive treatment.

Children 8 and above can be charged with a crime in AZ. I don't think it will be an issue where he cant be held responsible because of his age but he may be too young to be able to assist in his defense.

imoo

[secrets]

:flamemad:
I do believe the child is innocent. Of course I could be wrong. But I don't think so. It's the waiting game now.

A prosecutor doesn't care who is in prison/juvie. He wants a conviction. A Notch on his belt...no matter who it hurts. :cuss:

[GentleBreeze]

Brewer told ABC15 Saturday, "We still need some more information before we can really make an intelligent decision with regard to accepting that, like forensics, ballistics, DNA, fingerprints, things of that nature."
Is he mocking them?

No he is being a defense attorney. He knows better than anyone that the forensic evidence takes time. With the cut backs due to the economy all these labs are even further behind than usual and it usually takes an average of 4-5 weeks for it to start coming in.

I thought Brewer was under a gag order. This is twice that I know of that he has commented about the case since the gag order was implemented.

imoo

[secrets]

I respect your stand. But, in this case, don't you think that information from LE is leaking the whole time, in a very bad manner. I don't see the defense are saying much, but answer what they think of the plea deal. By the way, DA gave that info to the press.

No he is being a defense attorney. He knows better than anyone that the forensic evidence takes time. With the cut backs due to the economy all these labs are even further behind than usual and it usually takes an average of 4-5 weeks for it to start coming in.

I thought Brewer was under a gag order. This is twice that I know of that he has commented about the case since the gag order was implemented.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

:flamemad:
I do believe the child is innocent. Of course I could be wrong. But I don't think so. It's the waiting game now.

Then explain this to me because I just dont see how he can be.

Remember the boy said that when he discovered his father laying there, his face was ALREADY covered in BLOOD and his father was quivering so he shot him twice to end his suffering? Romero received TWO shots to the head. Therefore he had already been shot in the head which left his face all bloody. Once again he easily lies. It is just uncanny to me how easily he can just create these stories at will.

In his interview he wasn't intimidated at all. He felt he was the master and they were trying to follow his lead. Because he felt such confidence his lies became even more outlandish and that turned out to be his downfall.

[Justice_Dawg]

Then explain this to me because I just dont see how he can be.

Remember the boy said that when he discovered his father laying there, his face was ALREADY covered in BLOOD and his father was quivering so he shot him twice to end his suffering? Romero received TWO shots to the head. Therefore he had already been shot in the head which left his face all bloody. Once again he easily lies. It is just uncanny to me how easily he can just create these stories at will.

In his interview he wasn't intimidated at all. He felt he was the master and they were trying to follow his lead. Because he felt such confidence his lies became even more outlandish and that turned out to be his downfall.

Read the transcripts. One of the interviewing officers testified that she felt the boy felt "THREATENED" during the interview.

[GentleBreeze]

I respect your stand. But, in this case, don't you think that information from LE is leaking the whole time, in a very bad manner. I don't see the defense are saying much, but answer what they think of the plea deal. By the way, DA gave that info to the press.

I don't think they are leaking. In AZ once the defense attorney is given any information it is then released for public consumption. The media has a lot of power and they petitioned the court and the Judge agreed to transcripts on the case and established a website just for this case.

From what I heard the media got it from the Apache Court website..not the DA.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Read the transcripts. One of the interviewing officers testified that she felt the boy felt "THREATENED" during the interview.

Ok but that still does not answer my question about his father already having blood all over his face. I saw a picture of his body before they quickly took it down. I cant even remember where it was now.

imoo

[secrets]

I'm sorry, I get completely different picture from the video. I think the boy is telling the truth when he says he found them, and I see that later they are leading him to say things. When he says he did not shoot them, they show him they believe he did, both in body language and words, so he keeps guessing until they find his answer acceptable. I see a child willing to please adults he does not really get. That is how children deal with the adult world. My child is not exception. But in reality he has no clue how many times they are shot, when he took the gun, where he left it (he says the closet). To me, he has no clue whatsoever. They are leading him.
I see completely different situation from you.:shrug:
Then explain this to me because I just dont see how he can be.

Remember the boy said that when he discovered his father laying there, his face was ALREADY covered in BLOOD and his father was quivering so he shot him twice to end his suffering? Romero received TWO shots to the head. Therefore he had already been shot in the head which left his face all bloody. Once again he easily lies. It is just uncanny to me how easily he can just create these stories at will.

In his interview he wasn't intimidated at all. He felt he was the master and they were trying to follow his lead. Because he felt such confidence his lies became even more outlandish and that turned out to be his downfall.

[GentleBreeze]

I'm sorry, I get completely different picture from the video. I think the boy is telling the truth when he says he found them, and I see that later they are leading him to say things. When he says he did not shoot them, they show him they believe he did, both in body language and words, so he keeps guessing until they find his answer acceptable. I see a child willing to please adults he does not really get. That is how children deal with the adult world. My child is not exception. But in reality he has no clue how many times they are shot, when he took the gun, where he left it (he says the closet). To me, he has no clue whatsoever. They are leading him.
I see completely different situation from you.:shrug:

What I highlighted before is what he said, secrets. It has to be a lie because if he hadn't shot him in the head yet when he nudged him with the toe of his shoe, he would not have seen his father's face covered in blood.

imoo

[steffaroob4]

I find it odd that the Grandfather is talked about several times during the interview and they don't ask about his relationship with him.

Sometimes grampa is at the house when he gets home from school when nobody else is home.
The car looked like granpa's except for the rims.
Grandpa's finger prints could be on the gun.

I also find it ODD that he says he didn't mean to hit Tim's head with the screen door when he went into the house.

It is odd that he says his mom keeps a clean house, except for his room.

[GentleBreeze]

I find it odd that the Grandfather is talked about several times during the interview and they don't ask about his relationship with him.

Sometimes grampa is at the house when he gets home from school when nobody else is home.
The car looked like granpa's except for the rims.
Grandpa's finger prints could be on the gun.

I also find it ODD that he says he didn't mean to hit Tim's head with the screen door when he went into the house.

It is odd that he says his mom keeps a clean house, except for his room.

He probably keeps his room junked up. I would have to get onto my own son when he was this age to clean his junk up in his room, if he did not, I decided I wouldn't clean it up for him. He got the idea and started keeping it more organized because he knew I wasn't going to keep coming behind him anymore, time and time again. LOL Now he is pretty much a neat freak at times.

A lot of it is odd. What normal boy says they shot two people in the head to keep them from suffering after supposedly an unknown shooter had come in and only wounded them?

[steffaroob4]

He probably keeps his room junked up. I would have to get onto my own son when he was this age to clean his junk up in his room, if he did not, I decided I wouldn't clean it up for him. He got the idea and started keeping it more organized because he knew I wasn't going to keep coming behind him anymore, time and time again. LOL Now he is pretty much a neat freak at times.

A lot of it is odd. What normal boy says they shot two people in the head to keep them from suffering after supposedly an unknown shooter had come in and only wounded them?

Did you see the reast of the house pictures, like the bathroom? That house wasn't kept clean, imo. Why would an 8 year old just blame himself for a messy house? That shows me he doesn't know the difference between the truth and a lie.

[GentleBreeze]

Did you see the reast of the house pictures, like the bathroom? That house wasn't kept clean, imo. Why would an 8 year old just blame himself for a messy house? That shows me he doesn't know the difference between the truth and a lie.

I must have missed that. I will go look at it again in the morning.

He said he was to blame for the messy house? It did seem to be cluttered but she was a working mom and it was in the middle of the week. I saw pictures of the bedroom, I think, and the linens looked very clean.

imoo

[steffaroob4]

I must have missed that. I will go look at it again in the morning.

He said he was to blame for the messy house? It did seem to be cluttered but she was a working mom and it was in the middle of the week. I saw pictures of the bedroom, I think, and the linens looked very clean.

imoo

No I said that, he says at start of interview his mom kept a clean house, only his room was messy. Then he describes how messy his room and parents room was. I just found it odd.
He said his room was only dirty for 2 days, parents room messy for a week.

[Crispy]

wow...my computer is back up and I have a ton of catching up to do!!

[PensiveOne]

We knew about this on Nov. 26th. I guess it's news to the news. :tongue:

Justice...I was thinking the same thing. There are no new documents out there that I can see:rolleyes:

[PensiveOne]

ST. JOHNS – An 8-year-old Arizona boy was accused of double murder but 3TV has gotten word that the charges could be dropped.

3TV obtained court documents in which prosecutors say they do not want to prosecute the boy.

Prosecutors do not go into detail in reference to what the boy and his attorneys have been offered at this point in exchange for a guilty plea. (??)

3TV does know why they are trying to keep this case from going to trial. Prosecutors are concerned that the court could find the boy unfit to stand trial. The juvenile court system was designed for children who are at least 12 years old.

Since we are dealing with an 8-year-old, prosecutors are worried the court could rule that the boy is too young to understand the charges and the court proceedings and dismiss the case.

That, according to prosecutors in Apache County, would deny justice to the victims, their families and the public, all of whom have been impacted by these shocking murders in St Johns.

Prosecutors now say their goal is to strike a balance or a deal which would provide that justice and at the same time provide treatment and rehab which this boy desperately needs.

So again, prosecutors have offered a plea deal to the 8-year-old St. Johns boy charged with murdering his father and another man.

The details of the deal are not yet known but 3TV does know it hinges on the results of the boy's pending mental health examinations.

http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/stories/stjohns-local-news-112808-double-murder.10aacb9d.html

They must know something more than what is in the court documents. I wonder if they reach a plea if he could be released to his bio-mom and do the treatment in Mississippi? I think it would be difficult for him to live in that town.

[PensiveOne]

I'm sorry, I get completely different picture from the video. I think the boy is telling the truth when he says he found them, and I see that later they are leading him to say things. When he says he did not shoot them, they show him they believe he did, both in body language and words, so he keeps guessing until they find his answer acceptable. I see a child willing to please adults he does not really get. That is how children deal with the adult world. My child is not exception. But in reality he has no clue how many times they are shot, when he took the gun, where he left it (he says the closet). To me, he has no clue whatsoever. They are leading him.
I see completely different situation from you.:shrug:

ITA! He repeatedly tells them that the mean were already "down...". It was only when he was pressed that he says he shot them. I think he did not shoot them because they were already dead. His father already had blood all over his face when he found him. The only thing that really made the LE suspicious was Tim's wife saying she knew the boy was there and was calling to him. However, he NEVER says that he shot them initially, no matter how hard he was pushed by his interrogators. He also says..."Why would I shoot Tim?"...I hope they know more when the tests come in.

[PensiveOne]

Hi, I was thinking about this early this morning just when I woke up. If they release the boy and drop the charges, I would make them write it in black and white and sign it in freaking blood if they have to, that they won't ever go after this boy again regardless of his age in Juvy OR Adult Court, then I would take him to either the west coast (California) or the east coast (New York tri state metropolitan area) both areas are places where he would be able to live a peaceful life without being hounded with any labels. I would put him in a good private school where he could get a decent education and I would keep him in psychological counselling even if it takes years, to help him heal from this travesty and all the abuse he has suffered up to now. I would definitely not take a plea that says he is guilty because that would stay with him forever and I believe the boy is innocent. I would tell every person that tried to vilify him including his grandparents and the step mother to kiss the boy goodbye because they would never lay eyes on this kid again. And I would never look back in the direction of St. Johns or Arizona again. And THEN I would start my civil law suit for emotional damages, false imprisonment and go for the highest award in the world.

Hi January:seeya: I don't know where the news is getting that the DA wants to drop the charges. I didn't read that in the document. I agree if I was his mother I would want to take him far, far away from this tragedy. I would like to see this resolved, too. Because if they never find out what really happened the boy will always have that "taint" on him.

[Justice_Dawg]

I find it odd that the Grandfather is talked about several times during the interview and they don't ask about his relationship with him.

Sometimes grampa is at the house when he gets home from school when nobody else is home.
The car looked like granpa's except for the rims.
Grandpa's finger prints could be on the gun.

I also find it ODD that he says he didn't mean to hit Tim's head with the screen door when he went into the house.

It is odd that he says his mom keeps a clean house, except for his room.

It isn't odd. They are rookies.
They wanted him to confess, they weren't looking at or for anything else.

That house was sickening.

[PensiveOne]

I wanted to say that I love the little Einstein blurb that you have on the bottom when you post. IMO, it certainly fits this case to a T. In my thinking, if Mr. Wood plays his cards right, I think he will get this boy exonnerated from this whole outrageous travesty (and excuse for overkill on that word but I don't know of any other way to describe this). I think that if he waits long enough, the forensics will clear this boy and won't have to take a plea. The whole plea thing gets me mad. First they force him into LYING by saying he killed his dad and then they force him to LYING AGAIN say he is guilty by taking this plea) If this were my son I would say NOOOOOOO. NO PLEA! I think this is the prosecutors way of squriming out of this by seeing just how far he can push the envelope. Because I think he has seen the forensic evidence and the ballistics and KNOWS the boy didn't do it and has to figure a way he can let the boy go without coming out and saying, whoops I made a mistake. Because like I said before, if he ends up doing that (and I hope Mr. Wood backs him into a corner where he has no other choice but to come clean) the Prosecutor, the Chief of Police, all law enforcement in St. Johns and even the Judge can kiss their careers syonara because they are going to be crucified for trying to pin a double execution on an innocent little 8 year old kid.

:seeya:

Einstein is my hero:) Some of the tests must have come back by now. I suppose they will leak a little more as the next hearing gets closer. It does seem like a lot of CYA going on here. Even if he did do it he is much too young to be tried as an adult. I think that is why they are scrambling to get a plea done. You would think that they would want to find out who really did it, if it was not the boy. They don't seem to suspect anybody else. I have to assume that these are exceptionally intelligent people. It just baffles me:confused:

[blue bird]

You would think that they would want to find out who really did it, if it was not the boy. They don't seem to suspect anybody else. I have to assume that these are exceptionally intelligent people.

In my line of thought, more times than not, it has nothing to do with intelligence. Alot has to do with political or career advancement when it comes to Judges, prosecutors, law enforcement etc. It does not seem all that odd to me that they would not want to find out who really did it, because more times than not, they don't really care. They are out to get a conviction because that goes on their record and looks good for them and helps them with promotions and/or being re-elected. If they don't suspect anybody else it is because they will always go for the easiest route. How much easier can it get blaming an 8 year old who doesn't understand what's going on and will admit to anything for a twinkie? They may be exceptionally intelligent people but intelligence will ALWAYS take a back seat along with ethics and morals, when it comes to Cha Ching which is the bottom line in career advancement.

I concur January. The DA is trying his best to CYA. I'm glad the defense atty seems of the mind to wait for the forensics to come back. It sounds like he is confident in the boy's innocence! I truly hope the forensics embarrasses the pants of the PD & DA (and Judge for the matter). I hope it bends them over a barrel and the bio-mom gives it to them good. :D

[blue bird]

I concur January. The DA is trying his best to CYA. I'm glad the defense atty seems of the mind to wait for the forensics to come back. It sounds like he is confident in the boy's innocence! I truly hope the forensics embarrasses the pants of the PD & DA (and Judge for the matter). I hope it bends them over a barrel and the bio-mom gives it to them good. :D

Strange, on AZFamily.com you it doesn't seem that you can leave or read previously posted comments on the articles about this case. Am I mistaken or doing something wrong?

Lately, there seemed a lot of comments supporting the boy & blasting the PD, DA, & Media.

[Kether]

Even after all of this, does this mean the child will still have to remain in juvie, and if so, how long? I can't stand to think of him still being in juvie.

[GentleBreeze]

I honestly love when you and others like you that will not be convinced otherwise your own opinions come here and driver hammer your point home. It shows just how intellectual and intelligent posters like Justice Dawg and Details, etc. are, because what ever hardcore theories you put out there, these people crack them wide open in a matter of one or two posts. It's good practice for them. I believe that this line of work (forensic case cracking or what ever it is called) is their calling!:seeya:

PS how did that icon get in there?

Nice to see you too, January. Always full of positive energy, aren't ya? Oh that's right. You put other posters' intellectual levels down in your quest to build others up. Nice going. It creates such unity and fluidity on message boards doesn't it? ;)

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Even after all of this, does this mean the child will still have to remain in juvie, and if so, how long? I can't stand to think of him still being in juvie.

From the DAs motion he seems very concerned about a lot of pressing issues. He is concerned if the defendant is just placed back in society without treatment. He is concerned that the boy at this time may not be competent because of his age to assist in his defense. He has 8 months and at that time he can be reassessed and proved competent. He will be closer to 10 years old. He is very concerned about making sure the two victims who were heinously murdered (his words) get their justice.

So IMOO, he has probably offered him mental health treatment for 8 months and if he is then ruled age competent he will serve the remainder of his sentence in the juvenile detention system.

imoo

[Kether]

From the DAs motion he seems very concerned about a lot of pressing issues. He is concerned if the defendant is just placed back in society without treatment. He is concerned that the boy at this time may not be competent because of his age to assist in his defense. He has 8 months and at that time he can be reassessed and proved competent. He will be closer to 10 years old. He is very concerned about making sure the two victims who were heinously murdered (his words) get their justice.

So IMOO, he has probably offered him mental health treatment for 8 months and if he is then ruled age competent he will serve the remainder of his sentence in the juvenile detention system.

imoo

So, he is going to remain in juvie for a very long time? Even while getting treatment?

[GentleBreeze]

Yey, they update it constantly, and it keeps getting better, and better. I so hope the boy is innocent.
That was added later, thanks JD.

It seems that Brewer is admitting the boy is guilty but he wants to wait and see if the DA has the evidence to prove it and if not he will not go for the plea deal.

How long can this plea deal linger? I thought the court has to move very quickly toward resolving a case when it comes to a juvenile. Much shorter period of time than if it were in adult court.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

So, he is going to remain in juvie for a very long time? Even while getting treatment?

I really don't know, Kether. I just think that is likely the plea he is offering. What time he will spend, I really don't know. I am just speculating like everyone else.

It does make sense to me though. And yes, he will still continue to get counseling and be rehabilitated in juvie.

imoo

[Kether]

I really don't know, Kether. I just think that is likely the plea he is offering. What time he will spend, I really don't know. I am just speculating like everyone else.

It does make sense to me though. And yes, he will still continue to get counseling and be rehabilitated in juvie.

imoo

Thanks for the reply. I am worrying about him being in juvie till he is 18. I hope that doesn't happen. I feel confident, even if he did this, that he can recover and lead a normal life. If an 8 year can't be rehabilitated then no one can, IMHO. I don't know, but I feel sick when I think of him in juvie for 10 years. Hopefully, that will not be the case.

[GentleBreeze]

Sorry, maybe I didn't make my point so good. My point is that if posters here can pick apart everything but the kitchen sink being thrown at them in an effort to either vilify this boy or find guilt where there is none, than a good defense attorney can, too. Even if there is no jury in this case, the Judge still has to hear the argument and if the prosecutor is going to throw these same theories at him, then he can shred them up just the same as is being done on this board. And yes, I would hope that I do have positive energy flow. Because I refuse to allow the general consensus to vilify and condemn anybody without proof positive and a trial.

Well that is good to know. I feel very much the same as you do when it comes to murder victims. I stand my ground and refuse to allow the general consensus to vilify and condemn the victims without proof positive, when it hasn't even been established to date or even in a trial itself.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

Thanks for the reply. I am worrying about him being in juvie till he is 18. I hope that doesn't happen. I feel confident, even if he did this, that he can recover and lead a normal life. If an 8 year can't be rehabilitated then no one can, IMHO. I don't know, but I feel sick when I think of him in juvie for 10 years. Hopefully, that will not be the case.

YW.

If he is ruled age incompetent now because he cannot understand the procedures of his defense then he will be closer to 10 if he then is ruled age competent. So therefore it would be more like 8 years not 10.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

I'm sorry. I'm being strongly advised not to reply to your posts anymore. So I won't be able to continue our debate. Sorry. :shrug:

That is okay, I understand. You have to take the advice of someone else, I guess. No one tells me who I can debate with though and I kinda like it that way.

But you have a good day.:seeya:

[LindaNJ1216]

That is okay, I understand. You have to take the advice of someone else, I guess. No one tells me who I can debate with though and I kinda like it that way.

But you have a good day.:seeya:

Odd isn't it? :chicken:

Amazing how a poster can be treated if said poster thinks for him/herself and doesn't share the opinion of the majority here.:beer:

[bookie]

From the DAs motion he seems very concerned about a lot of pressing issues. He is concerned if the defendant is just placed back in society without treatment. He is concerned that the boy at this time may not be competent because of his age to assist in his defense. He has 8 months and at that time he can be reassessed and proved competent. He will be closer to 10 years old. He is very concerned about making sure the two victims who were heinously murdered (his words) get their justice.

So IMOO, he has probably offered him mental health treatment for 8 months and if he is then ruled age competent he will serve the remainder of his sentence in the juvenile detention system.

imoo


The DA should hold some of that concern in reserve and wait for test results. The boys story doesn't fit known facts. He only admitted to shooting each man twice but we know each one was shot more than twice.

What is this DA going to look like if it turns out there were 2 guns used? And if it turns out that someone else was the shooter(s)? The concern he is showing this boy is going come back to haunt him. He and the police decided this boy was the shooter based on a confession as coerced and full of holes as Michael Crowe's was.

[LisaM22]

"8-Year-Old Accused of Killing Father Offered Plea Deal"

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,459246,00.html

[bookie]

Hi, Book. I agree, the whole thing reeks of Michael Crowe. I saw the tape only a few days ago of that case and was taken aback by how similar both interrogations were. I agree that this is going to be the downfall of alot people if this turns out to be wrong and they have imprisoned an innocent kid. Can you image the law suit on that one! I also felt that there were two guns used from day one.


The Confession of Michael Crowe was on LMN the other day. I watched it when it first came out and watched it again. The boys in both cases denied being involved and didn't confess until police led them to it imo.

The police should have been able to determine by sight if the 2nd casing was a 22 by it's size imo. It's not unusual to have different brands but the size does differ depending on the caliber of the gun. If it was bigger than the other cases then it should be obvious if it was from a different gun. And if bullets were grabbed from 1 box it would seem they would all be the same. We have several brands of 22 bullets and none of them are mixedin with each other.

[Dallasnc]

http://www.wmicentral.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20193700&dept_id=505965&brd=2264&pag=461

Has the father been married 3 times? The orbit list Vincent having a son in St. Johns and a daughter in Tucson.

[GentleBreeze]

The DA should hold some of that concern in reserve and wait for test results. The boys story doesn't fit known facts. He only admitted to shooting each man twice but we know each one was shot more than twice.

What is this DA going to look like if it turns out there were 2 guns used? And if it turns out that someone else was the shooter(s)? The concern he is showing this boy is going come back to haunt him. He and the police decided this boy was the shooter based on a confession as coerced and full of holes as Michael Crowe's was.

You are correct in one way, imo. It will not be based on this boy's confession but about the evidence uncovered at the crime scene, eye witnesses, ear witnesses and other circumstantial evidence.

I do think he is haunted by this case. It seems it was one of the most brutal or heinous cases he has ever seen, however I don't think it has anything to do with the boy's confession. The mere offer of a plea, and if it is accepted by the defense attorney, which Brewer did say he is contemplating it, shows that yes, this boy was the killer of the two men. If not, Brewer would have immediately stated they would accept no plea deal offered and it is going to trial.

If he doesn't accept the plea then the DA will go forward with the case unless the boy is ruled incompetent to understand his defense because of his age at the time. If that occurs then the DA will file a motion that he be reassessed in 8 months, when he will be closer to 10 years old.

[GentleBreeze]

The Confession of Michael Crowe was on LMN the other day. I watched it when it first came out and watched it again. The boys in both cases denied being involved and didn't confess until police led them to it imo.

The police should have been able to determine by sight if the 2nd casing was a 22 by it's size imo. It's not unusual to have different brands but the size does differ depending on the caliber of the gun. If it was bigger than the other cases then it should be obvious if it was from a different gun. And if bullets were grabbed from 1 box it would seem they would all be the same. We have several brands of 22 bullets and none of them are mixedin with each other.

Did MC go to trial? I can't remember. Was he convicted of murdering his sister?

thanks

[bookie]

You are correct in one way, imo. It will not be based on this boy's confession but about the evidence uncovered at the crime scene, eye witnesses, ear witnesses and other circumstantial evidence.

I do think he is haunted by this case. It seems it was one of the most brutal or heinous cases he has ever seen, however I don't think it has anything to do with the boy's confession. The mere offer of a plea, and if it is accepted by the defense attorney, which Brewer did say he is contemplating it, shows that yes, this boy was the killer of the two men. If not, Brewer would have immediately stated they would accept no plea deal offered and it is going to trial.

If he doesn't accept the plea then the DA will go forward with the case unless the boy is ruled incompetent to understand his defense because of his age at the time. If that occurs then the DA will file a motion that he be reassessed in 8 months, when he will be closer to 10 years old.

Brewer contemplating the deal doesn't prove the boy is guilty. He doesn't even have the results of any testing back yet so he has to look at options. He is admitting it's possible but not saying it's fact. His hands are tied right now because of the speed that cases move at with juveniles.

The DA and the courts are doing this boy no favor. They should find a way to wait on the test results. If the deal is accepted to spare the boy from trial then the results come back showing he is innocent then the DA, the courts and his own lawyer have failed him.

[Dallasnc]

"8-Year-Old Accused of Killing Father Offered Plea Deal"

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,459246,00.html

From the article:
The prosecutor explained in his response to Brewer's opposition filing that he wasn't trying to obtain an unfair advantage, but he pressed for the dismissal because the judicial system isn't equipped to deal with an 8-year-old charged with murder.

The judicial system not being equipped to deal with an 8 year old charged with murder, is something that has concerned me from the beginning. I haven't seen that concern from the prosecutor until this filing. IMO, just the opposite. None from LE and the local news.

I don't think an 8 year old has the capacity to understand the serious nature of this crime or to help with his defense.

[bookie]

Did MC go to trial? I can't remember. Was he convicted of murdering his sister?

thanks



No he didn't go to trial and wasn't convicted of murdering his sister because the courts ruled the confessions inadmissible. The right person was eventually caught and tried for SC's murder.

One scene in the movie really reminds me of this case. It was right after her body was discovered and police arrived. They got her out of her mother's arms and ushered the family into the living room. The parents and sister huddled on the couch and Michael sat away from them. They showed an officer looking at him suspiciously because he didn't sit with his family...as if there was something strange about it. It really goes to show there is no playbook for grief and you can't judge someone elses actions, or lack of, on your own.

[GentleBreeze]

Brewer contemplating the deal doesn't prove the boy is guilty. He doesn't even have the results of any testing back yet so he has to look at options. He is admitting it's possible but not saying it's fact. His hands are tied right now because of the speed that cases move at with juveniles.
The DA and the courts are doing this boy no favor. They should find a way to wait on the test results. If the deal is accepted to spare the boy from trial then the results come back showing he is innocent then the DA, the courts and his own lawyer have failed him.

So aren't the DAs under the same rules and this case must go forward quickly?

Brewer will have to be given full disclosure before this goes to trial. Just like the Judge told Brewer he also must give full disclosure to the State in a certain amount of time.

imoo

[bookie]

From the article:
The prosecutor explained in his response to Brewer's opposition filing that he wasn't trying to obtain an unfair advantage, but he pressed for the dismissal because the judicial system isn't equipped to deal with an 8-year-old charged with murder.

The judicial system not being equipped to deal with an 8 year old charged with murder, is something that has concerned me from the beginning. I haven't seen that concern from the prosecutor until this filing. IMO, just the opposite. None from LE and the local news.

I don't think an 8 year old has the capacity to understand the serious nature of this crime or to help with his defense.


The police wanted him charged as an adult so I agree there was no concern from them. The police chief and DA should go spend a few days at an elementary school and see what 8 year olds really understand since the ones in their lives are apparently superior to normal 8 year old children.

[GentleBreeze]

No he didn't go to trial and wasn't convicted of murdering his sister because the courts ruled the confessions inadmissible. The right person was eventually caught and tried for SC's murder.

One scene in the movie really reminds me of this case. It was right after her body was discovered and police arrived. They got her out of her mother's arms and ushered the family into the living room. The parents and sister huddled on the couch and Michael sat away from them. They showed an officer looking at him suspiciously because he didn't sit with his family...as if there was something strange about it. It really goes to show there is no playbook for grief and you can't judge someone elses actions, or lack of, on your own.

So all they really had was circumstantial evidence and the confession? They had no forensics at that time that pointed to him, right?

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

The police wanted him charged as an adult so I agree there was no concern from them. The police chief and DA should go spend a few days at an elementary school and see what 8 year olds really understand since the ones in their lives are apparently superior to normal 8 year old children.

I don't think they would find any 8 year old kids that think like this kid and I am sure they hope they never run across another one that does.

imoo

[momof6]

Alot of people confess to a crime they did. Even though they confess, they are not instantly put in prison. It still has to go to trial and a case has to be made. All the evidence has to be put together. So stop freaking out about the police getting a confession.

All of you people that put your faith in the news, will find out that there is alot that is not being leaked to the media. You cannot make a case on what you heard or read.

Even if this boy is put in rehabilitation, he will never in his life forget what he did. It will always haunt him. It will never go away.

For those of you that keep saying that an 8 year old cannot comprehend death, maybe your kids can't, but all of mine can. Especially kids from a hunting family or a farm family where they have seen animals die.

[bookie]

So aren't the DAs under the same rules and this case must go forward quickly?

Brewer will have to be given full disclosure before this goes to trial. Just like the Judge told Brewer he also must give full disclosure to the State in a certain amount of time.

imoo



The DA and court sets the speed, not the defense. The DA could/should try to petition the court for time to wait on test results before possibly making decisions that could result in an 8 year old child wrongfully adjudicated a murder.

[bookie]

So all they really had was circumstantial evidence and the confession? They had no forensics at that time that pointed to him, right?

imoo



Just like this case. They hadn't even taken fingerprints before this 8 year old was charged with 2 counts of murder.

[bookie]

Alot of people confess to a crime they did. Even though they confess, they are not instantly put in prison. It still has to go to trial and a case has to be made. All the evidence has to be put together. So stop freaking out about the police getting a confession.

All of you people that put your faith in the news, will find out that there is alot that is not being leaked to the media. You cannot make a case on what you heard or read.

Even if this boy is put in rehabilitation, he will never in his life forget what he did. It will always haunt him. It will never go away.

For those of you that keep saying that an 8 year old cannot comprehend death, maybe your kids can't, but all of mine can. Especially kids from a hunting family or a farm family where they have seen animals die.


IF he shot them.

We aren't talking about confessions from adults who are guilty. We are talking about confessions coerced from children who deny involvement at first then confess after being led to say what the police want them to say....which is what some of us feel happened in this case.

[StarShine]

IF he shot them.

We aren't talking about confessions from adults who are guilty. We are talking about confessions coerced from children who deny involvement at first then confess after being led to say what the police want them to say....which is what some of us feel happened in this case.

I haven't been really following this closely but my gut feeling is that this child was coerced into a false confession. Until it is proven to me otherwise that this is not the case, I stand firm in my opinion.

[Kara]

From the article:
The prosecutor explained in his response to Brewer's opposition filing that he wasn't trying to obtain an unfair advantage, but he pressed for the dismissal because the judicial system isn't equipped to deal with an 8-year-old charged with murder.

<snipped>
I read that and all I could think was "yeah, right...".

Heck, even the adament guilty posters here believe the one charge was dropped to gain a tactical advantage.

[GentleBreeze]

Just like this case. They hadn't even taken fingerprints before this 8 year old was charged with 2 counts of murder.

Yes but in this case there could be loads of evidence discovered.

All the test results sure aren't require in other cases. The Judge agreed there was probable cause to go forward. The trial is where the evidence comes in, not instantly when the crime occurs and the suspect is charged.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

The DA and court sets the speed, not the defense. The DA could/should try to petition the court for time to wait on test results before possibly making decisions that could result in an 8 year old child wrongfully adjudicated a murder.

How so? If this boy wants a speedy trial it must be given.:shrug:

[GentleBreeze]

I agree, how can anyone think that just contemplating such a plea deal would mean the kid is guilty. I'm always amazed how many folks are ready to convict kids as guilty before they even know the evidence. :shrug:

Why would he even contemplate it for two seconds if he believed his client was totally innocent of the crimes? You mean he would let this boy do time knowing he was innocent just to plea the case out?

[StarShine]

I agree... I haven't listened to all the tapes yet but it appears they kept at him until he admitted something. I just watched the 48 hrs Tim Masters case last night. Scary since they kept at Tim for 10 hrs when he was 15 (I don't think he ever confessed though, but other kids have falsely confessed after being badgered like this - esp when the police are allowed to lie to the them during interrogation). The detective kept at the case for year trying to prove he did it instead of following the evidence or other suspects. Time was finally arrested based almost exclusively on his teenage drawings. After 10 years in prison, he was finally released.

I did listen to part of the tapes and from what I heard it obviously was the police leading that child.

Can you answer this question for me? Keep in mind that I know very little about this case when I ask this question. How did an 8 year old child manage to kill two adult men without one of them being able to stop him?

I watched that show last night also. Horrible to think that prosecutors are more interested in convicting people than getting to the truth. He had the nerve to say it's a good thing he kept the evidence...

[LisaM22]

From the article:
The prosecutor explained in his response to Brewer's opposition filing that he wasn't trying to obtain an unfair advantage, but he pressed for the dismissal because the judicial system isn't equipped to deal with an 8-year-old charged with murder.

The judicial system not being equipped to deal with an 8 year old charged with murder, is something that has concerned me from the beginning. I haven't seen that concern from the prosecutor until this filing. IMO, just the opposite. None from LE and the local news.

I don't think an 8 year old has the capacity to understand the serious nature of this crime or to help with his defense.

I have to agree, if an adult had the mental capacity of a 8 year old we would consider them not guilty by insanity

[Dallasnc]

It's done all the time even if the person is innocent because the prosecution always has a huge advantage unless the person being charged has a ton of money - that's a fact. And look at how many wrongful convictions there are. Once you get convicted, it's almost impossible to get an appeal, let alone ever be freed. Who knows if he would have said yes to a plea deal either. For cripe sake, it sounds like his attorney just didn't say 'no' to it. This does not mean the kid is guilty, period, it has nothing to do with him being guilty or innocent.

My question is why offer a plea deal before any evidence comes back? I would want to know what the evidence is before I offer a deal for a quilty plea. Would a plea keep the evidence from being released when it comes in?

[Kara]

Yes but in this case there could be loads of evidence discovered.
<snipped>

imoo
Could be is the operative term here. You have no idea if there is any evidence at all, yet you have convicted this child.

[Kara]

<snipped>

Can you answer this question for me? Keep in mind that I know very little about this case when I ask this question. How did an 8 year old child manage to kill two adult men without one of them being able to stop him?
I certainly can't. It's one of the biggest reasons that I doubt the confession. A .22 caliber bullet can kill you...but it's got to be a pretty much perfect shot. Unless the first shot was debilitating (twice) you would think a grown man would be able to disarm a small child....

[secrets]

Yes but in this case there could be loads of evidence discovered.

All the test results sure aren't require in other cases. The Judge agreed there was probable cause to go forward. The trial is where the evidence comes in, not instantly when the crime occurs and the suspect is charged.

imoo

Can you please point me to a case where they convicted someone before ANY test results were back? Because at this moment nothing seems to be back. Or, is not presented, which then is fishy.
Could be, would be should be... Can we see what IS done already?

[StarShine]

I certainly can't. It's one of the biggest reasons that I doubt the confession. A .22 caliber bullet can kill you...but it's got to be a pretty much perfect shot. Unless the first shot was debilitating (twice) you would think a grown man would be able to disarm a small child....

:seeya: Hi Kara!!

Well it's one of the reasons I doubt the confession myself....but the main reason I doubt it is because it seems from what I saw of the alleged confession this child was being led on by the police.

[Kara]

:seeya: Hi Kara!!

Well it's one of the reasons I doubt the confession myself....but the main reason I doubt it is because it seems from what I saw of the alleged confession this child was being led on by the police.

That too! :)

I hope your turkey day was grand. I know mine was. :seeya:

[StarShine]

That too! :)

I hope your turkey day was grand. I know mine was. :seeya:

Yes Mine was fine. Just got back from upstate.

Glad you enjoyed yours!!

:seeya:

[GentleBreeze]

Can you please point me to a case where they convicted someone before ANY test results were back? Because at this moment nothing seems to be back. Or, is not presented, which then is fishy.
Could be, would be should be... Can we see what IS done already?

Convicted? No. Arrested and charged? Yes.

[GentleBreeze]

Just like this case. They hadn't even taken fingerprints before this 8 year old was charged with 2 counts of murder.

They weren't even able to get a comparative sample of his fingerprints from him until about a week ago when the Judge ordered it be done.

imoo

[Dallasnc]

They weren't even able to get a comparative sample of his fingerprints from him until about a week ago when the Judge ordered it be done.

imoo

Why would they not fingerprint him when he was arrested?

[GentleBreeze]

It's done all the time even if the person is innocent because the prosecution always has a huge advantage unless the person being charged has a ton of money - that's a fact. And look at how many wrongful convictions there are. Once you get convicted, it's almost impossible to get an appeal, let alone ever be freed. Who knows if he would have said yes to a plea deal either. For cripe sake, it sounds like his attorney just didn't say 'no' to it. This does not mean the kid is guilty, period, it has nothing to do with him being guilty or innocent.

From what I have read this boy has a well known lawyer. He has been assigned by the Court to represent him so cost is not a problem for the boy or his mom.

Are you sure? I have heard numerous defense attorneys admit that is rare to get a client that is truly innocent so they try to plea the case down for their clients to get them the best results. Iirc, about 90% of the cases end in pleas. I have never heard a defense attorney say they would plea someone out if they truly believed in their innocence. They are usually very much the fighters for their client when that happens and will stop at nothing when proving their client did not do what they have been accused.

Jack Ford talks about it all the time and he was a defense attorney and was once a prosecutor.

[GentleBreeze]

Why would they not fingerprint him when he was arrested?

I don't know. They have to go through the Court to get permission to obtain samples from him. Maybe because he is a juvenile but I really don't know.

[secrets]

From Secrets link again: (Thanks Secrets!!)
Last lines

Defense attorney Ronald Wood told ABC15 Saturday, "It's probably a little early for a case like this, but you know, maybe they want to get rid of it and make it go away."

Brewer told ABC15 Saturday, "We still need some more information before we can really make an intelligent decision with regard to accepting that, like forensics, ballistics, DNA, fingerprints, things of that nature."

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story.aspx?content_id=ecb19025-94bf-4d7e-954d-76e8423a823a

How would you explain this, do you still think the defense lawyer thinks the child is guilty?

[GentleBreeze]

Why would they not fingerprint him when he was arrested?

Here is the motion to obtain physical evidence.

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/ORDER%20FOR%20PHYSICAL%20EVIDENCE.pdf

[Kara]

From what I have read this boy has a well known lawyer. He has been assigned by the Court to represent him so cost is not a problem for the boy or his mom.

Are you sure? I have heard numerous defense attorneys admit that is rare to get a client that is truly innocent so they try to plea the case down for their clients to get them the best results. Iirc, about 90% of the cases end in pleas. I have never heard a defense attorney say they would plea someone out if they truly believed in their innocence. They are usually very much the fighters for their client when that happens and will stop at nothing when proving their client did not do what they have been accused.

Jack Ford talks about it all the time and he was a defense attorney and was once a prosecutor.Defense attys MUST present all offers to their clients. With a minor as a client, the offer has to be presented to whoever is representing the interests of their client IMO. Does this child have a guardian ad litem that is representing his interests? Or is/are his mother and/or step mom fielding plea deals?

I assume having a minor for a client means all offers for plea deals have to be presented to more than simply the defendant.

moo

[GentleBreeze]

How would you explain this, do you still think the defense lawyer thinks the child is guilty?

He seems to be saying before he pleas he wants to make sure they have the forensic evidence that would prove him guilty. If not he thinks he can go forward and hope for reasonable doubt in the case. So he is going to wait and see what they have.

Sounds like he is hoping they won't have the evidence they need to prove their case.

[GentleBreeze]

Defense attys MUST present all offers to their clients. With a minor as a client, the offer has to be presented to whoever is representing the interests of their client IMO. Does this child have a guardian ad litem that is representing his interests? Or is/are his mother and/or step mom fielding plea deals?

I assume having a minor for a client means all offers for plea deals have to be presented to more than simply the defendant.

moo

Yes, he has an assigned GAL.

imoo

[Kara]

Yes, he has an assigned GAL.

imoo

TY...do you have a link to support that? Do we know the name of the GAL?

Also, do plea offers have to be presented to the GAL? I cannot imagine an 8 year old being competent to accept or reject a plea deal...

[secrets]

He seems to be saying before he pleas he wants to make sure they have the forensic evidence that would prove him guilty. If not he thinks he can go forward and hope for reasonable doubt in the case. So he is going to wait and see what they have.

Sounds like he is hoping they won't have the evidence they need to prove their case.

No. He seems to be saying that the chances are great the DA has very weak, or no case at all. And as any good lawyer they will wait for the forensic evidence to come back before they do anything. The evidence is important here not only to prove someones guilt, but also to prove someones innocence. That would later help any law suit for compensation.
IMO

[secrets]

I've been thinking about the plea. Why now and in this form?
since day 1: DA and LE screaming, this was premeditated, execution, cold blooded murder. The boy did it 100%. They will push for trial as an adult, because the nature of the crime. Press, media, videos, stories leaking everywhere, names calling etc.
then, suddenly: We offer a deal because they care for both sides, they want justice for the victims, but help for the boy ho heel? So, they won't try him as adult, only juvenile?
Why this change of hart?
Is it really due to the psychological evaluation, in case he is deemed incompetent for trial, and even after 240 days incompetent, so the case is dismissed and he walks free?
If they can prove that this murder was done by him, and was premeditated, and cold blooded, he was laying in wait, he lured Tim, etc, than there should be no problem for them to prove he is competent for trial, right?

[Dallasnc]

I want to see a timeline.
The actual time he got off the bus.
The time Tims phone call to his wife ended.
I want to see where the neighbor lives that called in the 911 call.
I want to see how far away that neighbor worked, that he came home from when his son called him.

[GentleBreeze]

TY...do you have a link to support that? Do we know the name of the GAL?

Also, do plea offers have to be presented to the GAL? I cannot imagine an 8 year old being competent to accept or reject a plea deal...

I am not sure if the GAL is involved in those matters.

You can find the name of the GAL in one of the files on this site. I have forgotten the name but I believe it is a male.

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/default.aspx

[GentleBreeze]

I want to see a time line.
The actual time he got off the bus.
The time Tims phone call to his wife ended.
I want to see where the neighbor lives that called in the 911 call.
I want to see how far away that neighbor worked, that he came home from when his son called him.

Iirc, there were two 911 calls placed.

One by the father of this boy's friend. Since the town is so tiny he probably arrived right away. It only took a minute or two for the police to get there. Their station was 7 blocks away.

Then there was a 911 call placed saying shots had been heard.

The neighbor that heard the shots, I believe the officer who testified said their houses would be about 40 yards apart. That house was directly across the street from the Romeros.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

I've been thinking about the plea. Why now and in this form?
since day 1: DA and LE screaming, this was premeditated, execution, cold blooded murder. The boy did it 100%. They will push for trial as an adult, because the nature of the crime. Press, media, videos, stories leaking everywhere, names calling etc.
then, suddenly: We offer a deal because they care for both sides, they want justice for the victims, but help for the boy ho heel? So, they won't try him as adult, only juvenile?
Why this change of hart?
Is it really due to the psychological evaluation, in case he is deemed incompetent for trial, and even after 240 days incompetent, so the case is dismissed and he walks free?
If they can prove that this murder was done by him, and was premeditated, and cold blooded, he was laying in wait, he lured Tim, etc, than there should be no problem for them to prove he is competent for trial, right?

Being competent in legalese is not the same as we may think of competency. There is a question if he can comprehend the criminal case enough to understand and assist in his own defense, due to his age. The DA said it is highly unusual that a child this young will have some mental defect or disorder so they aren't worried so much about that being the case but yes, his age is a factor in his competency level to understand the proceedings against him.

So the DA has to consider those possibilities. As he said cases like this one that involves double homicide committed by an 8 year old is not really what the juvenile system was set up for to handle. If he just waits until the boy is 15 when he can be tried as an adult then that is years and years where the boy has received no mental health care. The Judge can only impose rehabilitation and therapy if there is a conviction or a plea agreement. If he is not charged at all now then the Court has no standing to see that he must get treatment.

So I can fully understand the quandary the DA finds himself in.

imoo

[secrets]

So, we are told, the 8 year old child plans every detail of the murder, waits for the right day when the step mother is not at home, waits for the father to enter the home, knowing that at the same time TR would be out in or by the car on the phone with his wife. Than shoots VR in the back and head 4 times, reloading for each bullet. He knows TR will not hear the shots somehow. Than lures him inside, and shoots him 6 times, front and back, reloading each time. For the last shot he is next to the body, but has no trace of blood on him. He never misses a shot each time. Goes out side, shoots the door for some unknown reason. Invents the story about the white car.
Nobody knows why. There never was abuse.

Hmm, If I cannot comprehend what the DA is saying, I wonder how the boy will?

[bkwits]

So, we are told, the 8 year old child plans every detail of the murder, waits for the right day when the step mother is not at home, waits for the father to enter the home, knowing that at the same time TR would be out in or by the car on the phone with his wife. Than shoots VR in the back and head 4 times, reloading for each bullet. He knows TR will not hear the shots somehow. Than lures him inside, and shoots him 6 times, front and back, reloading each time. For the last shot he is next to the body, but has no trace of blood on him. He never misses a shot each time. Goes out side, shoots the door for some unknown reason. Invents the story about the white car.
Nobody knows why. There never was abuse.

Hmm, If I cannot comprehend what the DA is saying, I wonder how the boy will?

AND never drops even one unfired bullet on the floor or ground while loading 10 times...most of the times in rapid succession. :shrug:

[GentleBreeze]

AND never drops even one unfired bullet on the floor or ground while loading 10 times...most of the times in rapid succession. :shrug:

Why would he drop any?

imoo

[Kara]

I am not sure if the GAL is involved in those matters.

You can find the name of the GAL in one of the files on this site. I have forgotten the name but I believe it is a male.

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/default.aspx
TY!

I see the order to seal the GAL's report...and the GAL's report (which is sealed) but nothing to identfy anything about the GAL.

But, if the GAL is not involved in contemplating potential plea agreements, I don't see what they would be involved in here....

[GentleBreeze]

So, we are told, the 8 year old child plans every detail of the murder, waits for the right day when the step mother is not at home, waits for the father to enter the home, knowing that at the same time TR would be out in or by the car on the phone with his wife. Than shoots VR in the back and head 4 times, reloading for each bullet. He knows TR will not hear the shots somehow. Than lures him inside, and shoots him 6 times, front and back, reloading each time. For the last shot he is next to the body, but has no trace of blood on him. He never misses a shot each time. Goes out side, shoots the door for some unknown reason. Invents the story about the white car.
Nobody knows why. There never was abuse.

Hmm, If I cannot comprehend what the DA is saying, I wonder how the boy will?

The reloading of the weapon is done in mere seconds. This gun was previously owned by the father. Previously owned weapons have more of an easy movement as they have been used and aren't stiff like a brand new one.

All he had to do was quickly pull the bolt back and the casing flips out and then shove another bullet in and slam the bolt back down. Piece of cake. Isn't hard to do at all especially for someone that already used this gun.

Most kids know all about what their parents' habits and others in the home that may stay with them. They will know when they arrive and what they usually do when they get there. That is why some kids will clean their rooms 5 minutes before their parents are due home. lol He certainly would know that with TRs being a smoker that he had to smoke outside and talked on the cell phone to his wife in the afternoon.

We don't know what his clothes reveals. Could very well be microscopic and only seen through forensic testing. May even have brain matter too but with long guns the person is further away from the victim when shooting because of the longer barrel than if they had used a handgun.

Imo, each one of these murders took less than a minute each to complete.

ioo

[secrets]

Why would he drop any?

imoo

Oh, come-on, you can't be serious?

[GentleBreeze]

TY!

I see the order to seal the GAL's report...and the GAL's report (which is sealed) but nothing to identity anything about the GAL.

But, if the GAL is not involved in contemplating potential plea agreements, I don't see what they would be involved in here....

I will have to go back and look. Unless they took it down they did have his name at one time.

I think that is customary in all cases. That information is never disseminated.

I would think his bio mother along with the attorneys but I really don't know.

[GentleBreeze]

Oh, come-on, you can't be serious?

No I am serious. Why would he have to drop any?

[LindaNJ1216]

The police wanted him charged as an adult so I agree there was no concern from them. The police chief and DA should go spend a few days at an elementary school and see what 8 year olds really understand since the ones in their lives are apparently superior to normal 8 year old children.

Are you claiming this child is just like any other normal 8 yr old?

[LindaNJ1216]

A Lot of people confess to a crime they did. Even though they confess, they are not instantly put in prison. It still has to go to trial and a case has to be made. All the evidence has to be put together. So stop freaking out about the police getting a confession.

All of you people that put your faith in the news, will find out that there is alot that is not being leaked to the media. You cannot make a case on what you heard or read.

Even if this boy is put in rehabilitation, he will never in his life forget what he did. It will always haunt him. It will never go away.

For those of you that keep saying that an 8 year old cannot comprehend death, maybe your kids can't, but all of mine can. Especially kids from a hunting family or a farm family where they have seen animals die.


I totally agree with your last paragraph, but the one above it assumes he has a conscience. It doesn't appear to me that he does.

[LindaNJ1216]

I read that and all I could think was "yeah, right...".

Heck, even the adament guilty posters here believe the one charge was dropped to gain a tactical advantage.

Absolutely

[Kara]

No I am serious. Why would he have to drop any?
Uhm...an 8 year old reloading in a major hurry to keep from being stopped by either of the two adults he was supposedly murdering??? And you think he's going to be the epitome of grace and coordination???

[LindaNJ1216]

Why would he even contemplate it for two seconds if he believed his client was totally innocent of the crimes? You mean he would let this boy do time knowing he was innocent just to plea the case out?

Excellent point even though it seemed like common sense to me:shrug:

[Kara]

Absolutely

So you agree that the one charged was dropped as a tactical advantage and the DA is lying about his reasons?:confused:

[LindaNJ1216]

Can you please point me to a case where they convicted someone before ANY test results were back? Because at this moment nothing seems to be back. Or, is not presented, which then is fishy.
Could be, would be should be... Can we see what IS done already?

Whose convicted?:confused::confused:

[Dallasnc]

TY!

I see the order to seal the GAL's report...and the GAL's report (which is sealed) but nothing to identfy anything about the GAL.

But, if the GAL is not involved in contemplating potential plea agreements, I don't see what they would be involved in here....

You can find it in the Preadjudication hearing doc, first page under 'Present in juvenile court....Albert Lassen, if I'm reading it right.

[Kara]

You can find it in the Preadjudication hearing doc, first page under 'Present in juvenile court....Albert Lassen, if I'm reading it right.Thanks. What date? (if you know)

I'll look more closely tomorrow...tonight I'm settling in for The Amazing Race and Cold Case before hitting the sack. :)

[LindaNJ1216]

You know, I just spent last 4 days with my 8 year old (boy) family member and asked him a few questions starting with what is death. What happens when a person dies. His answer was you go to heaven except when your soul falls back down to earth. :confused: He could not elaborate. I asked him what a lawyer is and he had no idea. I asked him what Court was and he said "like tell it to the Judge?" I said yes, so what is the judge and he didn't know. Had no idea. I asked him if he knew what prison was and he said "it's a place you go for a week if you are bad" no further explanation. I asked him if he knew what his rights are. His response was "my rights? you mean like writing? Like with a pencil?" I stopped there because by that time I pretty much knew what his comprehension of the legal system and crime was.


I don't think that the Arizona boy is going to comprehend "plea bargain, prison, life sentence" or anything else is that his attorney will have to talk to him about. Since he more than likely cannot understand that, how is the attorney going to even present a plea bargain to a boy that doesn't comprehend anything that is going on around him? This is a real dilemma IMHO.

Hmmmm I know many very bright 8 yr olds. My own could comprehend death and understand it permanence younger, but he experienced the loss of a loved one. I think it just depends on a child's experience as well as what he's taught. i've worked with children that have had parents incarcerated, surely those children and probably their friends understand jail and what a crime is. My own was a victim of a crime and understood the basics.

[LindaNJ1216]

Oh, come-on, you can't be serious?

Don't any of you know any coordinated 8 yr olds?

[LindaNJ1216]

Uhm...an 8 year old reloading in a major hurry to keep from being stopped by either of the two adults he was supposedly murdering??? And you think he's going to be the epitome of grace and coordination???

You're assuming he was nervous.

A psychopathic trait ...no fear or nervousness.

IMO this kid lacks a conscience, fear, nervousness and remorse.

[Dallasnc]

Thanks. What date? (if you know)

I'll look more closely tomorrow...tonight I'm settling in for The Amazing Race and Cold Case before hitting the sack. :)

Right now, it's the 3rd document from the top. I'll check the date and PM you. Have a good night!:seeya:

[GentleBreeze]

Uhm...an 8 year old reloading in a major hurry to keep from being stopped by either of the two adults he was supposedly murdering??? And you think he's going to be the epitome of grace and coordination???

If he shot his father in the back first his father would have gone down with that shot alone. .22 rifles are for long distance shooting up to a mile away but when used from a short distance to the target they are much more lethal. VR was not a threat to this boy. He had his back toward him and then as he lay dying he shot the final shots into his head. He had rendered his father helpless in less than a minute imo.

He lured Tim Romans into the home after his father was dead. He was prepared and lay in wait watching him approach. How was Tim Romans a threat when he was outside of the home, not in and had no weapon in his hand?

I don't know if he dropped any bullets but I sure don't think he HAD to drop any.

JMO

[LindaNJ1216]

So you agree that the one charged was dropped as a tactical advantage and the DA is lying about his reasons?:confused:

Yep, if you go back to http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?p=12455411#post12455411 post 581

11-23-2008, 03:58 PM
LindaNJ1216
Registered User Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 38

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justice_Dawg
Oh happy day, Oh Happy day!
Motion to dismiss
Count 1
Murder of Vincent Romero

Filed By the STATE.

WOO HOO


don't excite yourself.

The other is the ace in the hole! If the prosecution loses in the first murder trial it can charge him with the second later. There is no statute of limitations on murder

[Kara]

You're assuming he was nervous.

A psychopathic trait ...no fear or nervousness.

IMO this kid lacks a conscience, fear, nervousness and remorse.I don't believe I insinuated nervousness anywhere in my post...I suggest a major hurry to thwart any attempt to interfere with the murderous rampage that was supposedly underway.

You certainly have dissected his psyche with very limited information though... I wish I was as smart as you appear to be... or is that psychic??

[secrets]

Don't any of you know any coordinated 8 yr olds?

Please be more respectful in your future posts.

You mean, equally coordinated when picking a cup of milk, and shooting at father?
No I don't know any like that.

[LindaNJ1216]

I don't believe I insinuated nervousness anywhere in my post...I suggest a major hurry to thwart any attempt to interfere with the murderous rampage that was supposedly underway.

You certainly have dissected his psyche with very limited information though... I wish I was as smart as you appear to be... or is that psychic??


nah....all psychics are frauds///I'm just that smart:D

[Kara]

Yep, if you go back to http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?p=12455411#post12455411 post 581

11-23-2008, 03:58 PM
LindaNJ1216
Registered User Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 38

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justice_Dawg
Oh happy day, Oh Happy day!
Motion to dismiss
Count 1
Murder of Vincent Romero

Filed By the STATE.

WOO HOO


don't excite yourself.

The other is the ace in the hole! If the prosecution loses in the first murder trial it can charge him with the second later. There is no statute of limitations on murder
Not excited...but you do seem to be saying that you think the DA is lying.:shrug:

I don't know about you...but I expect more from prosecutors/DAs. I don't expect honesty from defense attys...but I do expect it from the prosecution.

[Justice_Dawg]

Defense Waiting to Decide on Plea Bargain for Boy, 8

By JOHN DOUGHERTY
Published: November 30, 2008

PHOENIX — A lawyer for an 8-year-old Arizona boy accused in the shooting deaths of his father and another man said Sunday he would not decide whether to accept a plea bargain until the prosecution produced forensic evidence and psychologists completed evaluations to determine if the boy was competent to stand trial.

The lawyer, Ron Wood, declined to provide details of the plea bargain offer. “When the time comes, we will have a discussion with the boy and the mother and decide what we are going to do,” he said.

Mr. Wood said the evaluations should be completed in the next few weeks. He said the state had not yet provided him with important evidence, including the results of ballistics tests of the .22-caliber single-action rifle that the police said the boy used to shoot his father, Vincent Romero, 29, four times and a boarder, Timothy Romans, 39, six times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/01/us/01child.html

[LindaNJ1216]

Please be more respectful in your future posts.

You mean, equally coordinated when picking a cup of milk, and shooting at father?
No I don't know any like that.


No, I mean like athletic and extremely coordinated. Can easily excel at physical things. Like loading and pulling a trigger without dropping. It's not rocket science.

In an earlier post I was amused that someone had said a 8 yr old with little 8 yr old legs couldn't possibly jump over a man. I just had to shake my head and wonder.

[Justice_Dawg]

Please be more respectful in your future posts.

You mean, equally coordinated when picking a cup of milk, and shooting at father?
No I don't know any like that.
Respectful? Impossible.

Where did the ignore button go?

[bkwits]

Why would he drop any?

imoo

WOW, you are sure giving this child a lot of credt for being totally in control of the situation. Not clumsy or nervous even a little bit.

I wonder how many times he had practiced shooting two men to death.

[LindaNJ1216]

Not excited...but you do seem to be saying that you think the DA is lying.:shrug:

I don't know about you...but I expect more from prosecutors/DAs. I don't expect honesty from defense attys...but I do expect it from the prosecution.


yes, I think he lied.

IMO the justice system isn't about finding the truth. It's all about winning.

[secrets]

No, I mean like athletic and extremely coordinated. Can easily excel at physical things. Like loading and pulling a trigger without dropping. It's not rocket science.

In an earlier post I was amused that someone had said a 8 yr old with little 8 yr old legs couldn't possibly jump over a man. I just had to shake my head and wonder.

The boy is small for his age, and didn't look athletic to me. I wouldn't know if he can easily excel at physical things, with so little info.

[GentleBreeze]

Defense Waiting to Decide on Plea Bargain for Boy, 8

By JOHN DOUGHERTY
Published: November 30, 2008

PHOENIX — A lawyer for an 8-year-old Arizona boy accused in the shooting deaths of his father and another man said Sunday he would not decide whether to accept a plea bargain until the prosecution produced forensic evidence and psychologists completed evaluations to determine if the boy was competent to stand trial.

The lawyer, Ron Wood, declined to provide details of the plea bargain offer. “When the time comes, we will have a discussion with the boy and the mother and decide what we are going to do,” he said.

Mr. Wood said the evaluations should be completed in the next few weeks. He said the state had not yet provided him with important evidence, including the results of ballistics tests of the .22-caliber single-action rifle that the police said the boy used to shoot his father, Vincent Romero, 29, four times and a boarder, Timothy Romans, 39, six times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/01/us/01child.html

Why would he be waiting. He must think this boy is guilty if not he would believe nothing is going to be found on the weapon that ties the boy to the crime.

So if it links him to it.......he is then going to then plea?

I remember in the Winkler case the ballistics report was one of the last ones to come back.

The Judge has not admonished the DA about the ballistic reports so he must be in good standing and the results aren't back in yet.

imoo

[secrets]

Defense Waiting to Decide on Plea Bargain for Boy, 8

By JOHN DOUGHERTY
Published: November 30, 2008

PHOENIX — A lawyer for an 8-year-old Arizona boy accused in the shooting deaths of his father and another man said Sunday he would not decide whether to accept a plea bargain until the prosecution produced forensic evidence and psychologists completed evaluations to determine if the boy was competent to stand trial.

The lawyer, Ron Wood, declined to provide details of the plea bargain offer. “When the time comes, we will have a discussion with the boy and the mother and decide what we are going to do,” he said.

Mr. Wood said the evaluations should be completed in the next few weeks. He said the state had not yet provided him with important evidence, including the results of ballistics tests of the .22-caliber single-action rifle that the police said the boy used to shoot his father, Vincent Romero, 29, four times and a boarder, Timothy Romans, 39, six times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/01/us/01child.html

Well, in my book, this could mean only one thing - that the child is innocent, or at least the lawyer thinks he is.

[LindaNJ1216]

WOW, you are sure giving this child a lot of credit for being totally in control of the situation. Not clumsy or nervous even a little bit.

I wonder how many times he had practiced shooting two men to death.



he sure didn't seem nervous even a little bit in the video, I'd describe him as cool as a cucumber and the lies flowed outta his mouth like they do from Casey Anthony's.

IMO

[LindaNJ1216]

The boy is small for his age, and didn't look athletic to me. I wouldn't know if he can easily excel at physical things, with so little info.

I read he was involved in sports (don't know if he was any good or not) and also had airsoft guns along with the 22. Anything you do often enough you get pretty good at.

[GentleBreeze]

WOW, you are sure giving this child a lot of credit for being totally in control of the situation. Not clumsy or nervous even a little bit.

I wonder how many times he had practiced shooting two men to death.

Probably replayed it many times in his mind. Why would he have to practice? He knows very well how to handle and shoot this gun. It wasn't foreign to him.

imo

[Kara]

yes, I think he lied.

IMO the justice system isn't about finding the truth. It's all about winning.
That just makes me sick. I don't typically expect much from defense attys...but I hold public servants to a higher standard than that.

[LindaNJ1216]

Well, in my book, this could mean only one thing - that the child is innocent, or at least the lawyer thinks he is.

Amazing...but I know you won't be shocked...I disagree 100%
:biggrin:

[secrets]

Probably replayed it many times in his mind. Why would he have to practice? He knows very well how to handle and shoot this gun. It wasn't foreign to him.

imo

Cops practice all the time.

[LindaNJ1216]

That just makes me sick. I don't typically expect much from defense attys...but I hold public servants to a higher standard than that.


i always did too......

[Justice_Dawg]

Well, in my book, this could mean only one thing - that the child is innocent, or at least the lawyer thinks he is.

He sure is innocent. :seeya:

IMO

[LindaNJ1216]

Cops practice all the time.

so did he.

neither had to practice on live people to get accurate

[Kara]

Why would he be waiting. He must think this boy is guilty if not he would believe nothing is going to be found on the weapon that ties the boy to the crime.

So if it links him to it.......he is then going to then plea?


Maybe so... Perhaps the defense atty simply has no idea, at this point in time, if this child is guilty of anything. It would certainly be an injustice to enter into a plea agreement before seeing if the physical evidence exonerates this child.

[GentleBreeze]

I read he was involved in sports (don't know if he was any good or not) and also had airsoft guns along with the 22. Anything you do often enough you get pretty good at.

Yes, he seemed to be quite active. He played soccer, football, basketball, skateboarded, went hunting, fishing and even had a ATV iirc. I bet he was in good physical condition. He was no couch potato kid.

imoo

[LindaNJ1216]

He sure is innocent. :see ya:

IMO


IF he isn't, what do you think should happen to him? IF his lawyer accepts the plea deal, will you believe it was because he was guilty?