11/24 -

[bkwits]

Later testimony describes the position of the shell casings - they were found inside the house. Some on the top landing top of the stairs (they were of the type where it goes halfway up, has a little landing, 180 degree turn, and the other half of the stairs - father's corpse was found on the upper half of the stairs), some on the middle landing in the middle of the stairs, and the rest by Tim's body, IIRC, outside.

Strongly suggests Tim was killed outside. And the trail of blood - described somewhat incorrectly as a stream (in later testimony they explain that what htey mean by stream is a set of dots and spots of blood, indicating Tim was bleeding as he went from his truck to the front door) - fits a gunman outside, coming maybe from a white car, not a gunman inside the house, calling Tim over to him.

Also, the father's body on the landing - 2 casings at the top and more at the middle landing means the gunman had to have stepped over the body. Hard to do with 8 year old short legs.




Ooooh - I see - unspent shells. Yeah, if we want to believe this was an 8 year old kid, he grabbed a bunch of shells, reloaded 10 times, and never dropped a shell and left it there. Had no extras, without putting them neatly in the box. This doesn't sound like a kid, sociopath, abused, anything - none of that changes an 8 year old's coordination and concentration level to something this adult.



Yes, U meant unfired shells. The Sgt. also was asked about the box of ammunition that was found near the entrance inside the house. He said the box was closed and he didn't know how many, if any, shells were missing from the box. If this was the ammunition used. the child would have had to load ten times in, prob never dropping a shell, close the box, and as you say, he didn't have any shells in his pockets, to my knowledge. His room doesn't look like he is a neat kid, and he says as much. This whole story is confusing.

[bkwits]

No 8 year old - videogame or not - understands death. I share concerns about violent videogames - but when they're 8, they don't need a videogame to tell them death isn't final - they're too young to really grasp that anyway.


Reading all of this, I keep thinking that it sounds more and more like a wife or ex. The idea of some thugs, druggies, or gangster or whatever doesn't fit with Tim's wife's statement - unless again, they threatened the kid to make him call out - and did something like tell him they'd kill mom next if he talked - which is not impossible, not that uncommon. The kid was in shock, or worse yet made to help and told of awful consequences if he told the truth.

The defense lawyer sounds reasonably good so far - not too obnoxious, but bringing out most of the points he should (a crime that shocks 47 year old police officers means an 8 year old who has just seen his father and dad's roomate killed or dead, can be excused for being in no small amount of shock himself).


Some years ago, a young relative, about the same age as this boy, lost his mother quite suddenly. He was an only child, and even though told about her death, he kept asking when she was coming home.

[Jay]

Where I live, juveniles aren't afforded the same legal rights as adults.




One thing I do know from study years back is, the federal constitution does NOT mandate Jury trials for Juveniles, so it is an individual state choice.

This chart, as of 2002, outlines such, and Arizona is not one that mandates them, nor is NJ.


http://www.njdc.info/pdf/ssjurytrial709.pdf


Juveniles do not have to be Indicted by a Grand Jury for felonies, though neither do adults under the federal constitution, so again, it is a state's own choice by law.

If I am a defendant on trial for murder, I want a JURY trial, whether I would be an adult or juvenile.

I am at a loss of how this 8 year old supposedly waived his Miranda rights?? How does he possess the understanding to do so under the Miranda waiver guidelines??

From past research years ago, the youngest age I read where a court permitted such a waiver to be admissable was from an 11 year old??

Why was this tape released? Does anyone know if it was the product of some type of Open Records request by the media? I did not read the whole thread here?

The problem here is, there is NO jury, so a Judge will be the trier of fact.

I don't think it will survive a Motion to Dismiss, as surely the defense will argue an 8 year old can not form the "cuplable mental state", or Mens Rea, required to commit a crime!!

Doing some research on the OJ case several weeks ago, I did see a provision in NV law that stated a person under the age of 10 could NOT be charged with a crime.

In another state, some years ago, I read where a 3 year old was arrested for Arson? I believe I have my facts correct!!


Obviously AZ has no such restriction as NV, as he was arrested, but still??

There are 2 people dead, still how can an 8 year old understand what he did???

What is the best way to adjudicate this? Involuntary Civil commitment until age 18 in lieu of criminal charges??

[LindaNJ1216]

Later testimony describes the position of the shell casings - they were found inside the house. Some on the top landing top of the stairs (they were of the type where it goes halfway up, has a little landing, 180 degree turn, and the other half of the stairs - father's corpse was found on the upper half of the stairs), some on the middle landing in the middle of the stairs, and the rest by Tim's body, IIRC, outside.

Strongly suggests Tim was killed outside. And the trail of blood - described somewhat incorrectly as a stream (in later testimony they explain that what htey mean by stream is a set of dots and spots of blood, indicating Tim was bleeding as he went from his truck to the front door) - fits a gunman outside, coming maybe from a white car, not a gunman inside the house, calling Tim over to him.

Also, the father's body on the landing - 2 casings at the top and more at the middle landing means the gunman had to have stepped over the body. Hard to do with 8 year old short legs.




Ooooh - I see - unspent shells. Yeah, if we want to believe this was an 8 year old kid, he grabbed a bunch of shells, reloaded 10 times, and never dropped a shell and left it there. Had no extras, without putting them neatly in the box. This doesn't sound like a kid, sociopath, abused, anything - none of that changes an 8 year old's coordination and concentration level to something this adult.

He stayed with the bodies for 30 minutes or so...........:chicken:

[LindaNJ1216]

One thing I do know from study years back is, the federal constitution does NOT mandate Jury trials for Juveniles, so it is an individual state choice.

This chart, as of 2002, outlines such, and Arizona is not one that mandates them, nor is NJ.


http://www.njdc.info/pdf/ssjurytrial709.pdf


Juveniles do not have to be Indicted by a Grand Jury for felonies, though neither do adults under the federal constitution, so again, it is a state's own choice by law.

If I am a defendant on trial for murder, I want a JURY trial, whether I would be an adult or juvenile.

I am at a loss of how this 8 year old supposedly waived his Miranda rights?? How does he possess the understanding to do so under the Miranda waiver guidelines??

From past research years ago, the youngest age I read where a court permitted such a waiver to be admissible was from an 11 year old??

Why was this tape released? Does anyone know if it was the product of some type of Open Records request by the media? I did not read the whole thread here?

The problem here is, there is NO jury, so a Judge will be the trier of fact.

I don't think it will survive a Motion to Dismiss, as surely the defense will argue an 8 year old can not form the "culpable mental state", or Mens Rea, required to commit a crime!!

Doing some research on the OJ case several weeks ago, I did see a provision in NV law that stated a person under the age of 10 could NOT be charged with a crime.

In another state, some years ago, I read where a 3 year old was arrested for Arson? I believe I have my facts correct!!


Obviously AZ has no such restriction as NV, as he was arrested, but still??

There are 2 people dead, still how can an 8 year old understand what he did???

What is the best way to adjudicate this? Involuntary Civil commitment until age 18 in lieu of criminal charges??

This 8 year understood "dead" he was a hunter, nothing he ever shot & killed got up and lived again.

I think he should face criminal charges ....then sentenced until he is 18 to a secure facility and receive extensive therapy. If at that time, he still feels no remorse and hasn't made huge strides he should be civilly committed until he's "fixed"

[LisaM22]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/11/08/child.charged.ap/index.html

The family priest knew that the young boy was being taught to hunt.

that just seems to young to learn to hunt, was he learning to hunt or learning to kill? - jmho

[courtsinsession]

and this child could well be one; however, that said, i don't believe his "confession" will be allowed; i don't know how the police could interrogate this child without an adult present; it is just not acceptable. the argument the police will proffer is that they interviewed the child as a witness and so they felt that situation did not require an adult present; that argument does not fly if you listen to the tape of his interrogation.

this is a horrible and tragic case and fascinating at the same time. It is hard for people to imagine that an 8 year old child could kill because he was mad at his parent for a variety of reasons and so he killed his dad and the friend. That would represent sociopathic behavior would it not? Don't assume there was abuse, or that the kid was on anti-depressants; it is highly likely he is a "bad seed". We shall see as the caSe unfolds.

[Justice_Dawg]

Tainting a jury is a very relevant fact. Without releasing that confession, with it almost certainly inadmissible in court, what a jury would hear is that they've decided this 8 year old killed two men because the wife says she can hear his voice calling Tim - and nothing else. Without that 'taint', I think this would be laughed out of court.
ITA! Great Post!:beer:

[Justice_Dawg]

I was reading over at HFTM and someone said the mother will be on Good Morning America tomorrow. It was posted(at least it said) yesterday. I wonder if she is really going to be on, is she not covered by the gag order, I forget? I'm going to DVR it just in case. jmo

She did it,

http://www.onelocalnews.com/prescottherald/stories1/index.php?action=fullnews&id=49681

[Justice_Dawg]

He stayed with the bodies for 30 minutes or so...........:chicken:
One man inside and one man outside. Who was the boy with for 30 mins.? and When???

The men got home about 5 pm.
911 receives a call at 5:06 pm.

Seems the boy is confused.

[Debb]

She did it,

http://www.onelocalnews.com/prescottherald/stories1/index.php?action=fullnews&id=49681

Thanks for that link. I had planned to watch in order to see he interview, but forgot. I tuned in at the last minute just in time to see Tom Jones.

Anyway, can't experts tell from the projectory of the bullets how tall the person was who shot the victims and what position the victim was in when each bullet hit them?

[Justice_Dawg]

that just seems to young to learn to hunt, was he learning to hunt or learning to kill? - jmho

He was learning to hunt and we don't know how good he was with a gun or how long he had been being taught.

[sage68]

WOW! Did I read that right? The trial is December 22? That has to be the some kind of record if true.

[bkwits]

He stayed with the bodies for 30 minutes or so...........:chicken:

Your point?

[courtsinsession]

doesn't sound like it; he will get some time with mom for thanksgiving and he wants to see movies or play video games or whatever? what about hearing somethng from him about feeling bad this his dad is dead- even if he didn't do it; do 8 year old children understand the concept of death being final or not?

[Justice_Dawg]

I recall someone mentioning that they were bored and going to type up the confession. Is there any way you guys can post it into the links section of this forum? I would love to see the entire interview word for word so I can figure out what they are saying. :patriot:

This is on page 3.
--------
They probably have my dad's fingerprints and I think Tim uses those guns sometimes and my grandpa has his gun over there.

Which grandpa?

um Leroy He has the same gun as me cept bigger

A chipmunk gun too?

No it's different cept it has the same bullets
--------

Another gun in the house uses the same bullets as the chipmunk? :confused:

[Heidi J.]

doesn't sound like it; he will get some time with mom for thanksgiving and he wants to see movies or play video games or whatever? what about hearing somethng from him about feeling bad this his dad is dead- even if he didn't do it; do 8 year old children understand the concept of death being final or not?

While I am not sure whether this child is guilty or not. In no way do i think the cops should have been talking to him with out a lawyer. I do believe some kids are just bad seeds though.

One thing that really bothered me, in the article where his mom discusses him wanting to come home and see Kung Fu Panda, it mentions that he buried his head after the "confession", and when the cop asked what he was thinking about, he said, "going to juvie". How does a child that young know what Juvie is? I mean.. I didn't really even know till my teens what is was and my 12 year old sure wouldn't know. This statement bugged me a little.:shrug:

[bkwits]

This is on page 3.
--------
They probably have my dad's fingerprints and I think Tim uses those guns sometimes and my grandpa has his gun over there.

Which grandpa?

um Leroy He has the same gun as me cept bigger

A chipmunk gun too?

No it's different cept it has the same bullets
--------

Another gun in the house uses the same bullets as the chipmunk? :confused:


I asked my son, the hunter, about the ammunition because it was said by the LE that different shell casings were found. My son said that a long rifle or youth gun could both shoot "short" bullets or the longer ones, as long as the rifle didn't have a magazine to load the shots. I also looked up the 17 caliber HMR bullets (the box of ammunition that was shown in the crime scene photos). That ammunition can be used in many guns and rifles.

IIRC, my son said the same ammunition could be from a handgun.

[book]

I think everyone seems to forget that they had access to this boy at least twice and God only knows what those cops or anyone else said to him BEFORE those cameras started rolling.

ITA Look at the Michael Crowe case.

[ALL RISE]

While I am not sure whether this child is guilty or not. In no way do i think the cops should have been talking to him with out a lawyer. I do believe some kids are just bad seeds though.

One thing that really bothered me, in the article where his mom discusses him wanting to come home and see Kung Fu Panda, it mentions that he buried his head after the "confession", and when the cop asked what he was thinking about, he said, "going to juvie". How does a child that young know what Juvie is? I mean.. I didn't really even know till my teens what is was and my 12 year old sure wouldn't know. This statement bugged me a little.:shrug:
It bugged me a whole lot that the father wanted the son to know how to handle a gun and shoot rodents or whatever....everybody knows what they say about children that kill animals...

[Justice_Dawg]

I asked my son, the hunter, about the ammunition because it was said by the LE that different shell casings were found. My son said that a long rifle or youth gun could both shoot "short" bullets or the longer ones, as long as the rifle didn't have a magazine to load the shots. I also looked up the 17 caliber HMR bullets (the box of ammunition that was shown in the crime scene photos). That ammunition can be used in many guns and rifles.

IIRC, my son said the same ammunition could be from a handgun.
Thanks for that info!

IIRC in the crime scene photos, Tim's truck door is open.

Never in all of my life have I ever seen such a sloppy crime scene outline. They draped the tape over the open truck door instead of around the whole truck. :no:

[Heidi J.]

It bugged me a whole lot that the father wanted the son to know how to handle a gun and shoot rodents or whatever....everybody knows what they say about children that kill animals...

There is nothing wrong with teaching children to hunt. I come from a family of hunters, and not one person in my family have ever killed anyone.. Hunting and torturing animals are 2 totally different things.

[Alibar]

.
Year ago a five yr old boy was taught how to operate a gun. Later, he shot and killed a neighbor. I remember how shocked everyone was, but, clearly, the boy was way too young to have the knowledge. Can't recall where this happened, but, it was in the USA and on national news.

[Justice_Dawg]

.
Year ago a five yr old boy was taught how to operate a gun. Later, he shot and killed a neighbor. I remember how shocked everyone was, but, clearly, the boy was way too young to have the knowledge. Can't recall where this happened, but, it was in the USA and on national news.
I remember that. Sad.

Most states:

legal drinking age: 18 yrs - 21 yrs
legal driving age: 16 yrs - 17 yrs

Legal hunting/gun age: 0 yrs

I don't understand this.

[Heidi J.]

I think some people on this thread want to vilify this boy and convict him before he is even tried based on innuendo and false rumors "leaked" by the law enforcement in a CORRUPT town. There certainly IS a difference between hunting and torturing animals. This explains the boys sentence "didn't want him to suffer" . That is hunting 101.

I have been following the thread, and your posts. I agree with you what has been done to this boy is pathetic. If this was my child.. all h3ll would be breaking loose. No way should that child be locked up until they can prove he shot them. What happened to innocent until proven guilty:shrug:

[Justice_Dawg]

Justice Dawg, it makes no sense to me. On top of that I think that 16 is too young for a drivers license but that's another thread.

Now I've seen everything. Read this article and then scroll down to the comment made by "chocolate".


http://www.bradenton.com/news/breaking_news/story/1049491.html


What next. Arresting a 6 month old for spitting up in public?

OMG! charged with disruption of school function. What ever happened to school detention/suspention?
My daughter is a 8th grade teacher. Last year, a student told her that a kid had a knife. See called the principle to have the child checked. They not only found a knife on he boy, but 2 ozs. of Pot and $800.00 in cash. HE GOT 3 WEEKS SUSPENSION. She said when he came back, he demanded to have his assigned seat back. UNREAL.

Yep, watch your babies people. Spitting up is next.
barf

[Justice_Dawg]

I have been following the thread, and your posts. I agree with you what has been done to this boy is pathetic. If this was my child.. all h3ll would be breaking loose. No way should that child be locked up until they can prove he shot them. What happened to innocent until proven guilty:shrug:

ITA!
I hope we hear some news today.

[Justice_Dawg]

but legal hunting age is 12 with a hunters course and must have an adult along.

I don't believe shooting prairie dogs is quite the same thing. It's more for target practice.
IMO

Shooting a prairie dog vs. target practice are totally different.

Shooting a prairie dog is hunting.
Target practice should be done at a proper facility.

[Details]

LindaNJ - did you see my questions? Where are you getting fingerprint evidence from, especially when they hadn't even taken his fingerprints until a few days ago, same goes for ballistic evidence that I haven't seen released establishing which gun, and most of all, how are you judging his emotion and appearance at the funeral, when he didn't attend, was locked up in jail for that funeral? I suppose we can add in the question of where do you get 30 minutes with the bodies when the police got there in 6 minutes? And when the boy went to a neighbor friend of his to get that neighbor to call 911.

You seem to have a lot of very different facts than anything I see published.

[Details]

While I am not sure whether this child is guilty or not. In no way do i think the cops should have been talking to him with out a lawyer. I do believe some kids are just bad seeds though.

One thing that really bothered me, in the article where his mom discusses him wanting to come home and see Kung Fu Panda, it mentions that he buried his head after the "confession", and when the cop asked what he was thinking about, he said, "going to juvie". How does a child that young know what Juvie is? I mean.. I didn't really even know till my teens what is was and my 12 year old sure wouldn't know. This statement bugged me a little.:shrug:Three ways a child of 8 could know. First, it could have been a frustrated parental threat - knock it off or I'll call the cops and have them send you to juvie. Some parents do stuff like that. Second, a classmate could have a brother or sister in juvie - according to some, this area has quite the drug problem. Third, the cops may have mentioned it in untaped interactions with the boy, as a scare tactic to get to the truth.


Some kids are bad seeds, it is possible and does sometimes happen that their brains form in a bad way. However - this kid shows no signs, and an 8 year old isn't so calculating as to hide who he truely is all this time from school, friends, neighbors, and family. His confession doesn't match the evidence, his initial story (about a white car speeding away) fits much better. Because one of the two men was shot outside, by his truck, according to the blood trail. And for a ton of other reasons, this is not sounding like he did it - the evidence doesn't fit the abilities of an 8 year old - even a horror film, bad seed, 8 year old.

[Details]

I was just afforded the opportunity to read the interrogation by a very nice poster who was kind enough to provide that to me.

The one thing I do see from start to finish is that the boy is adamant about finding these men already shot when he comes home from school. He repeats it numerous times in the interview. When they start to accuse him and then start putting the questions to him in this fashion "you did this, right?" "you did that, right?" the boy never says YES to any of these type questions. You can see he is clearly flustered by being accused. He says "nuh uh." or "I think so" or "I may have" or "I don't know". I think these are typical responses you are going to get from a 7 or 8 year old when they are trying to tell a grown up one thing and the grown up is accusing them of something else or twisting their words around.

For me, this confession speaks volumes. This boy is innocent and I hope that the specialist that is assisting the attorney can pick up on that and run with it. This boy is innocent. He did not kill these men.Yeah, that wording is what I noticed too - I've seen it on other false confessions from kids.

[museumgirl]

We come from an area of hunters big time... and they start letting the kids who are interested come with them and 'drive' (which basically means walk) around 10; they don't get to carry a gun until they have passed hunters safety which I believe is at 12. Even then, they have an adult with them to begin with.

There is nothing wrong with teaching a child how to hunt, especially to teach them how to handle the weapon correctly. NOTHING.

I don't know... I've only seen bits and pieces and part of the interview and to me, this child doesn't really seem to know what exactly happened... and the no lawyer thing right there was a HUGE flag. No parent, no lawyer.....

[Details]

doesn't sound like it; he will get some time with mom for thanksgiving and he wants to see movies or play video games or whatever? what about hearing somethng from him about feeling bad this his dad is dead- even if he didn't do it; do 8 year old children understand the concept of death being final or not?How do you know? Has there been an interview with him? All we've seen are the police interviews where they're trying to get an 8 year old to change his story. Will the police even allow it? And should the family let him be interviewed, maybe mess with his court case, for our own trivial curiousity?

Yes, he wants to be with his mom - probably with his dad too. 8 year old children don't well understand the idea of death being final - someone was telling a story above of an 8 year old continually asking when their mom was coming home. They see the movies where the parents come back through some miracle or other. And they see cartoons where shot animals turn into little animal ghosts you can talk to - and they're young enough to believe in all that. He's been locked up in isolation - something hard enough to tolerate for an adult, let alone a child. He sees his dad's corpse, is pushed to admit he killed them, is locked up in isolation, only able to see his mom and stepmom occasionally, sometimes only through glass.

[Details]

Here's a better copy on the mother's interview:
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Story?id=6320539&page=2

[Justice_Dawg]

Here's a better copy on the mother's interview:
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Story?id=6320539&page=2

Great Link! Thanks

I don't watch TV often and that link has the video of the mother.
I watched it.
It Broke my heart.

[Heidi J.]

Three ways a child of 8 could know. First, it could have been a frustrated parental threat - knock it off or I'll call the cops and have them send you to juvie. Some parents do stuff like that. Second, a classmate could have a brother or sister in juvie - according to some, this area has quite the drug problem. Third, the cops may have mentioned it in untaped interactions with the boy, as a scare tactic to get to the truth.


Some kids are bad seeds, it is possible and does sometimes happen that their brains form in a bad way. However - this kid shows no signs, and an 8 year old isn't so calculating as to hide who he truely is all this time from school, friends, neighbors, and family. His confession doesn't match the evidence, his initial story (about a white car speeding away) fits much better. Because one of the two men was shot outside, by his truck, according to the blood trail. And for a ton of other reasons, this is not sounding like he did it - the evidence doesn't fit the abilities of an 8 year old - even a horror film, bad seed, 8 year old.

ITA!! If he was such a good boy, why would parents threaten him with juvie.. really makes me wonder who mentioned it :mad:

[Crispy]

IMO, we don't know if he has shown remorse. The mother even said today that she is not allowed to discuss the case with him.

Also, I was thinking about that picture of the money laid out..could that pic have been taken to show he wasn't robbed? or a way of keeping track of what was in his pocket?

[Details]

ITA!! If he was such a good boy, why would parents threaten him with juvie.. really makes me wonder who mentioned it :mad:I wonder too - the cops are too used to interrogating hardened criminals - they tend to throw in everything but the kitchen sink - threats of what an awful place Juvie is, and it's where bad boys who don't cooperate with police go - seem quite possible. But so does a classmate who has a brother or sister in juvie.


But for remorse - in a different post - we've got no information to say he has or has not. He was no doubt in shock, poor kid sees his father dead. It was a shocking scene to the adult police officers. And as an 8 year old, it's going to be some time before he realizes that his dad is really gone, for good, not just about to pop back up like in all the movies.

[Justice_Dawg]

IMO, we don't know if he has shown remorse. The mother even said today that she is not allowed to discuss the case with him.

Also, I was thinking about that picture of the money laid out..could that pic have been taken to show he wasn't robbed? or a way of keeping track of what was in his pocket?

remorse? :confused: What did I miss?

If it was a drug hit, IMO the money would have been gone.

We don't know which man had the money. Taking money from the man inside would have been easier (unseen) than taking it from the man outside. It took guts to shoot a man outside 6 times in plain view as it is.
Shooting someone 6 times is a rage crime.

JMHO

[Kara]

Here's a better copy on the mother's interview:
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Story?id=6320539&page=2
Thank you!:seeya:

[bkwits]

It bugged me a whole lot that the father wanted the son to know how to handle a gun and shoot rodents or whatever....everybody knows what they say about children that kill animals...

Well, I certainly wouldn't characterize hunting the same astorturing and killing an animal, like a pet. I have been accused on this board of wanting to take guns away from law-abiding citizens, being anti-hunter,etc. The fact is that I see the hunters in my family love animals, and the sport is to kill for food only. I have mentioned my son, who was taught to shoot at 11 by my uncle who was a retired Naval officer. My uncle was one of the kindest men I knew. My son is a kind, humane person who taught his son to shoot and to hunt at 13. My grandson, now almost 18, is the sweetest, gentlest boy (young man).

My step grandaughters (twins age 23) are graduating as BSNs this year (nurses). They have 4 dogs, train horses, and have worked part time at vet clinics for years. They hunt with their dad. Their mom (my stepdaughter) asked how they could shoot animals when they spend so much time helping animals and training them. They said, well, we have to eat.

[Crispy]

remorse? :confused: What did I miss?

If it was a drug hit, IMO the money would have been gone.

We don't know which man had the money. Taking money from the man inside would have been easier (unseen) than taking it from the man outside. It took guts to shoot a man outside 6 times in plain view as it is.
Shooting someone 6 times is a rage crime.

JMHO

I was commenting about remorse from another post, I just didn't quote it.

As far as rage crime, you would think that if the little boy killed his dad because he was mad at him why wouldn't his dad have been shot more? He was inside the house away from view. He was the one who said the boy needed a spanking. The boy said he wasn't mad at Tim. I really wish we could hear more from the families about the dynamics in the house. We have heard that they were both great guys and helped everyone, but what was Tim's relationship like with the boy? or the boy and his stepmothers relationship?

BTW, I hating calling him "the boy" but that's the only way to put it.

[Justice_Dawg]

I was commenting about remorse from another post, I just didn't quote it.

As far as rage crime, you would think that if the little boy killed his dad because he was mad at him why wouldn't his dad have been shot more? He was inside the house away from view. He was the one who said the boy needed a spanking. The boy said he wasn't mad at Tim. I really wish we could hear more from the families about the dynamics in the house. We have heard that they were both great guys and helped everyone, but what was Tim's relationship like with the boy? or the boy and his stepmothers relationship?

BTW, I hating calling him "the boy" but that's the only way to put it.
Oh, I didn't see the other post. Sorry.

I have the same questions. I want to know more about Grandpa Leroy too. :hat:

[Justice_Dawg]

New filing up.
REQUEST FOR FUNDS FOR EXPERT 11-24-08

[Crispy]

This new filing is great! An expert who specializes in child confessions.

[Justice_Dawg]

This new filing is great! An expert who specializes in child confessions.

Do they actually think the confession will even come in IF this makes it to trial?

[Justice_Dawg]

I think we should all stick one dollar bill in an envelope and send it to the attorney to pay for experts and maybe help the mother with her motel fees. Did anyone besides me cry their eyes out watching the Good Morning America clip from the link above?

Thank you for posting the link, by the way. And this new information.

They do need some kind of fund raiser.
This is a difficult case and I think all involved are victims at some level.

[Crispy]

Do they actually think the confession will even come in IF this makes it to trial?

I think they are sure gonna try to get it in. Hopefully, this psychiatrist expert can dig a little deeper with this boy after he goes through the confession.

[Justice_Dawg]

I think they are sure gonna try to get it in. Hopefully, this psychiatrist expert can dig a little deeper with this boy after he goes through the confession.

It is laughable.
Should we send a copy to the judge of the Crowe "confession" so he can see how similar they are? ;)

[interested]

but legal hunting age is 12 with a hunters course and must have an adult along.

I don't believe shooting prairie dogs is quite the same thing. It's more for target practice.

Where are you getting this information?

Arizona does not have a minimum hunting age, up to two children under age 14 can accompany a licensed hunter 18 or older. Over 14 years old they need their own license. The only limitation is children over 14 need to complete a hunters education course before they can hunt big game, no child under 10 can take big game.

http://www.ncsl.org/programs/natres/minagehunt.htm

38 states have no minimum hunting age.

[VC2]

This case is a travesty!

At this point i dont care if he did it or not. Adults who murder are given more chances than this child seems to have.

More importantly, at his age, if he killed them there is something wrong. Whatever is wrong has a chance of being fixed if treated appropriately now. Holding him in isolation, keeping him from any sort of human empathy and caring is guaranteed to reinforce the wrong part and ensure he does not get fixed.

any child that young should at the least be held in a childs psychiatric facility where there is daily play therapy and other forms with reputable child psychiatrists.

It is abominable that he is being kept in juvie at 8. Isolation is obviously necessary there, but it in itself is a form of child abuse. If any parent kept their child locked in a room with just a bed and toilet for months they would be sent to prison for 25 years! and rightly so. It makes it no less destructive to do it to an 8 year old who has not been found guilty.

imo
p.s. if he is able to be released for 48 hours than he is able to be released into his mothers custody until trial!

imo

[BobbisAngel]

One man inside and one man outside. Who was the boy with for 30 mins.? and When???

The men got home about 5 pm.
911 receives a call at 5:06 pm.

Seems the boy is confused.


The boy said that he sat with his dad for a half hour and cried. I wonder if that was before or after he killed Tim. I wonder if the two men rode together or if Tim sat in his truck and talked to his wife as soon as he got home while the dad went on inside.

Tim was shot from the front not in the back and then shot in the arm and head twice. So he couldn't have been shot by someone outside. He was walking from his truck where he had been talking to his wife to go see what the boy wanted. It was said that after he was shot the first time he kept walking trying to get to the house. He probably thought the boy and his dad were in trouble. He must not have seen who was doing the shooting or if he did maybe he thought he could get the gun from him. I don't know but from the way Tim was shot the boy must have been standing inside the door. The truck was parked close to the house.

I think all of the evidence points to this boy. LE said that the murders were well planned and had been planned for awhile. I believe that this boy is smarter then the average boy his age and he does know how to handle guns as it was his gun that he used and he knew how to shoot as he hunted with his dad. He knew how to load the gun, etc. He shot each man 4 or 5 times. I guess he wanted to make sure they weren't going to get back up. He nudged his dad with his foot to see if he was still alive and then shot his twice more. Poor Tim got murdered just because he was there and the boy didn't want any witnesses. This is not your average or normal 8 yr old boy. He also knows that when you shoot an animal it does not get back up...it is dead. The same would apply to humans. Especially when you shoot them 4 to 5 times each.

If this boy wasn't the shooter and he came home and found his dad shot would he really have nudged his dad with his foot to see if he was still alive and then picked up the gun and shot him 2 more times so he wouldn't suffer???? Wouldn't he have freaked out and ran next door screaming all the way or picked up the phone and called 911 for help?
Most kids are taught to call 911 in an emergency. That story doesn't hold water for me. Besides, Tim's wife heard the boy call for Tim to come into the house because something was wrong with his dad and right after that the neighbors heard shots.

We don't want to believe that a boy this young could commit such horrible crimes and not even blink but it sure sounds like he planned the murders out and then carried out his plans. Pretty scary. In the interview that I watched the boy wasn't the least bit shook up. He just answered the questions like he was talking about an everyday happening that didn't have to do with him killing his dad. It is said that him and his dad were very close. He didn't act sorry or anything.

[BobbisAngel]

I was commenting about remorse from another post, I just didn't quote it.

As far as rage crime, you would think that if the little boy killed his dad because he was mad at him why wouldn't his dad have been shot more? He was inside the house away from view. He was the one who said the boy needed a spanking. The boy said he wasn't mad at Tim. I really wish we could hear more from the families about the dynamics in the house. We have heard that they were both great guys and helped everyone, but what was Tim's relationship like with the boy? or the boy and his stepmothers relationship?

BTW, I hating calling him "the boy" but that's the only way to put it.


In an interview that the bio mother gave she said that the boy and his dad had a very close relationship. They did a lot of things together and were very close. There has been no one that has said there was any trouble between them. The boy got 5 swats because he was supposed to bring his school papers home and he neglected to do that. I would guess this wasn't the first time that had happened. It sounds like the dad wanted to see what grades his son got on his school work which I can relate to. For all we know the boy might not have been doing some of his homework or schoolwork and dad was trying to keep a handle on it. Same as most parents do. That was the last thing that upset the boy from what he said.

[Details]

So this boy is smart enough to plan this coldblooded murder, has no remorse - but sat by his dad for 30 minutes crying (a child that age has no concept of time either - nor would anyone after they've found their father's dead body). He's smart enough to call Tim in, and Tim is dumb enough to keep running (oops, walking you say) towards the gunfire even after he's been shot, and keeps getting shot? An 8 year old boy puts two rounds in his father at the top of the stairs, then somehow hops over the body with short little 8 year old legs to put two more rounds in from the middle landing, without getting covered in blood? And the different types of spent casings is meaningless - he must have just had another gun?

No matter if this is Einstein or Forrest Gump, this is an 8 year old boy, he had an 8 year old boy brain. He had a messy room, so it's not likely he's so neat as to reload 10 times, and never drop a shell. To have this level of planning and calculation just requires parts of the brain that aren't complete yet. And were he somehow such an out of time evil genius, he'd have no trouble lying to the police, and lying consistently. It just doesn't fit.

That confession - he keeps changing his story to whatever the adults suggest. He knows he fired his gun - it's his gun, he's gone hunting with it. To understand that they meant just that day is again, not the type of implied cue an 8 year old picks up on.



How do you take him crying for 30 minutes as true, then also say he doesn't seem sorry or anything? This is almost a full day after the murders, and the poor kid is in shock, and is now being accused of being the killer by two cops. And when he agrees with them, they keep wanting more, he keeps giving them more. That's no super criminal genius who plotted a murder - that's an 8 year old kid telling adults what they seem to want to hear.

[BobbisAngel]

You have to wonder what they said to him or if they intimidated or threatened him in any way, during the times the camera was not rolling. He is continually saying he did not shoot the gun until they are up in his face accusing him. These people are monsters with no conscience. How do they sleep at night. Also you have to understand that kids have a hard time interpreting vague statements and questions. For instance, did you shoot the gun? to a child of that age could mean "did you EVER shoot a gun?" or "did you shoot the gun today, yesterday or last week or tomorrow even". They can't interpret non-explicit meaning.


I watched the interviews that are out so far and I didn't think LE were hard on this boy in fact I thought the female was very gentle with him. That is the only interview that I have seen so far. I didn't think she put words in his mouth either. By the time the interview I saw was done LE had talked to Tim's wife and had evidence that we haven't even heard yet but they knew he was the shooter. They were giving him a chance to tell them the truth. Slowly the truth started coming out. In that interview he admits shooting his dad and Tim twice each to put them out of their misery but he is still not telling the truth.

When they first interviewed this boy they thought he was a witness. Then the evidence starts coming in and they talk to Tim's wife at the funeral. By then they know that the boy shot each man 4 to 5 times each. They have evidence that we know nothing about. They can tell how tall the shooter was and many other things now. Were the boys fingerprints the only ones on that gun? It was that gun that shot all of the bullets. Tim was shot as he was coming towards the house from his truck which was parked near the house as there is not sidewalk. He gets shot and keeps trying to get to the house then he is shot a few more times. One shot hits the bottom of the screen door and seemed to have grazed Tim's head. Then Tim is shot in the head by the killer who is standing above him. I think we will find that this boy committed these murders by himself because he was angry at his dad.

[Details]

BobbisAngel, in the hearing transcripts, the police say they don't have that evidence you list that "we know nothing about" - they're asked if there's any evidence pointing to the boy - they say there is nothing. So, no, there aren't fingerprints and all kinds of other stuff that is telling them it's him. Only Tim's wife's casual statement at the funeral home. Nothing else.

[BobbisAngel]

How do you take him crying for 30 minutes as true, then also say he doesn't seem sorry or anything? This is almost a full day after the murders, and the poor kid is in shock, and is now being accused of being the killer by two cops. And when he agrees with them, they keep wanting more, he keeps giving them more. That's no super criminal genius who plotted a murder - that's an 8 year old kid telling adults what they seem to want to hear.



I didn't say that I believed that he sat and cried beside his dad for 30 minutes....I said that that is what the boy said. I doubt that he had the time to sit and cry for even a few minutes because he would have wanted to get to Tim before Tim came into the house on his own and saw the dad. The video that I saw was taped after the funeral and after Tim's wife talked to LE.

How do you know that the boy is in shock. He didn't seem to be in shock to me but we obviously differ in opinions which is fine. We each have the right to have our own opinions and to post them here. That is what this forum is all about. I believe that the boy did murder his dad and Tim. You believe that someone else committed the murders. Neither of us have to prove anything here. We are here to discuss the case is all.

[book]

They didn't read him his miranda rights while questioning him because they were treating him as a 'victim' at first. Therefore I believe the 'confession' should be thrown out of court. IMO

[book]

I didn't say that I believed that he sat and cried beside his dad for 30 minutes....I said that that is what the boy said. I doubt that he had the time to sit and cry for even a few minutes because he would have wanted to get to Tim before Tim came into the house on his own and saw the dad. The video that I saw was taped after the funeral and after Tim's wife talked to LE.

How do you know that the boy is in shock. He didn't seem to be in shock to me but we obviously differ in opinions which is fine. We each have the right to have our own opinions and to post them here. That is what this forum is all about. I believe that the boy did murder his dad and Tim. You believe that someone else committed the murders. Neither of us have to prove anything here. We are here to discuss the case is all.

How can you say he's not?

IMO

[Justice_Dawg]

Hey, there, Justice Dawg! :seeya: I just wrote a letter to the boy's attorney showing my support for the boy with my thoughts and prayers to let this boy's mother know that she is not alone in this tragedy. No matter if the boy is innocent or not, it's inhumane to separate a child from it's mother at that young age. I can't even imagine what she is going through let alone the boy.That is great, mine wll go out today!:seeya:

I am sick about it! What is the media saying about the boy having to see his mother through glass???? I don't watch much TV.. is he even still being talked about?

[forensicfan]

There are three cases that come to mind where a child's "confession" has led to a wrongful conviction. Two of them were videotaped interrogations; one with a child "expert" using puppets and another with police that was shown on TruTV not long ago. The third one was from a made for TV movie that I THINK was a true story.

The first was the child expert that had 20+ kids tell of sexual abuse by the daycare provider that turned out to be false. The child expert had led them into telling things that happened that really didn't. There is a movie about it but I don't remember the name of the movie. Anyway, the family accused was innocent.

The second was one that was on TruTV recently about a 14 yr old boy named Michael accused of stabbing his sister to death. He said over and over again that he didn't do it and they had no physical evidence to prove that he did but they kept on him until he "confessed". There was a vagrant man found that was in the area that had blood on his shirt that I think was never tried for the murder.

The third was about a teenage boy accused of killing his friend. Strangling her with a bandana. If I remember correctly, they had evidence to prove that it was someone else who committed the crime but even the girl's parents think it was the boy that was convicted based on his "confession" which again, he denied over and over again until 13 hours or so later when he "confessed".

This little boy "confessed" rather quickly but it seems that the evidence at the scene shows he may not be guilty of committing the crime. The police didn't seem to be leading him to say anything but I am still not convinced that he did this. Not yet anyway.

The mother was on the news last night but I didn't get to watch her interview because I had to run errands.

Did anyone on here get to see that interview? If yes, what did she say?

[book]

Bobbie's Angel, just stop okay? Stop. Whether you believe the boy is innocent or guilty, that's your prerogative. The poster VC above is right. I have been trying to figure out why I cannot sleep or eat for the last week since I have heard about this 8 year old boy being kept in detention center in isolation since November 6 which is 2 weeks now. As I had said before, I have a very close family relative who is exactly 8 years old and I know one thing about an 8 year old boy. They are trying to be acting all grown up but they still sleep with a nightlight and cry for their mother when they get hurt or when they are scared. Whenever I think about this boy which is all the time now, I keep coming back to that. He still has his baby teeth, for God sake. All I know is that keeping a small child away from it's mother is inhumane. Every mother in this country should be going to St. Johns and protesting this. If it can happen to this woman's 8 year old, it can happen to anybody's. BABIES DO NOT BELONG IN JAIL.


Here is my new signature. Mothers Against Babies In Jail

I understand exactly how you feel.

[book]

There are three cases that come to mind where a child's "confession" has led to a wrongful conviction. Two of them were videotaped interrogations; one with a child "expert" using puppets and another with police that was shown on TruTV not long ago. The third one was from a made for TV movie that I THINK was a true story.

The first was the child expert that had 20+ kids tell of sexual abuse by the daycare provider that turned out to be false. The child expert had led them into telling things that happened that really didn't. There is a movie about it but I don't remember the name of the movie. Anyway, the family accused was innocent.

The second was one that was on TruTV recently about a 14 yr old boy named Michael accused of stabbing his sister to death. He said over and over again that he didn't do it and they had no physical evidence to prove that he did but they kept on him until he "confessed". There was a vagrant man found that was in the area that had blood on his shirt that I think was never tried for the murder.

The third was about a teenage boy accused of killing his friend. Strangling her with a bandana. If I remember correctly, they had evidence to prove that it was someone else who committed the crime but even the girl's parents think it was the boy that was convicted based on his "confession" which again, he denied over and over again until 13 hours or so later when he "confessed".

This little boy "confessed" rather quickly but it seems that the evidence at the scene shows he may not be guilty of committing the crime. The police didn't seem to be leading him to say anything but I am still not convinced that he did this. Not yet anyway.

The mother was on the news last night but I didn't get to watch her interview because I had to run errands.

Did anyone on here get to see that interview? If yes, what did she say?

http://www.pendulumfoundation.com/messageboards/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=188

[Justice_Dawg]

Looking at the states witness list, most witnesses are the cops, Co- workers of VR and TR, 2 barmaids (?????) Some neighbors, A child psychologist, The coronor, a criminalist, Liz Ramero, Leroy Ramero, (grandparents) and some Roman's familly members.
(stepmom not listed :confused:)

Looking at the evidence list, so far it is the DVD (confession barf) and contents of the men's wallets. And 2 search warrants.

No guns listed, no casings listed. They must still be in for testing.
No phone records have been disclosed.

In the boys "confession" he says he called his stepmom that day. They asked him if the call would show up on phone records, he says "uh huh"

I am wondering if the stepmom is a defense witness.

Edited to add, IMO the timeline dosen't add up. These men were killed minutes after they arrived home around 5 pm. Call to 911 5:06 pm.
hmmmmmmm

[Crispy]

The timing bothered me too. I'd like to know what time they got off work exactly and how long it took to drive home. Another thing, if he had this so planned out, why didn't he wait for Tim to get off the phone? If he called his wife everyday when he got home, the boy would know that. Gag orders stink!!

[Crispy]

http://www.azfamily.com/perl/common/slideshow/sspop.pl?recid=13142&location=www.azfamily.com

In photo 6, of the other gun, does this look like it's in the truck to anyone else? If so, why would he run towards gunfire instead of running to get the gun out of the truck?

Of course I could be wrong and that's not the truck. :shrug:

[Justice_Dawg]

The timing bothered me too. I'd like to know what time they got off work exactly and how long it took to drive home. Another thing, if he had this so planned out, why didn't he wait for Tim to get off the phone? If he called his wife everyday when he got home, the boy would know that. Gag orders stink!!

Transcripts said the men got off at 4:30. Home by "around" 5 pm

I don't know where it says he called her everyday when he got home. I only saw that he called her "after" work. Could it be he called her on the ride home? :shrug:

Why didn't the boy wait for the step(spanking)mom to get there too?

This case makes no sense and I have tried, but can't, tie the boy to it. :shrug:

[Crispy]

You could be right. I thought I had read that he called her when he got home from work, it could be when he got off work. I've read a lot of articles. LOL

[Justice_Dawg]

http://www.azfamily.com/perl/common/slideshow/sspop.pl?recid=13142&location=www.azfamily.com

In photo 6, of the other gun, does this look like it's in the truck to anyone else? If so, why would he run towards gunfire instead of running to get the gun out of the truck?

Of course I could be wrong and that's not the truck. :shrug:

I saw crime scene photos of Tim's truck, with it's door left open. I am guessing that is the seat it was on, so good call there! :beer:

Look at this. I never saw this one before. What do you think?

http://ktar.com/?sid=993970&nid=237&pid=4

[Crispy]

http://www.mossbergintl.com/pages/702plinkster.htm


Doesn't look like the same gun. The gun didn't have a detachable magazine did it? I wish they would release all the photos. I don't really want to see the gruesome ones, but I'd like to know where in the bedroom all the guns were kept.

ETA: I'd like to know why the original expert wouldn't take the case.

[Justice_Dawg]

http://www.mossbergintl.com/pages/702plinkster.htm


Doesn't look like the same gun. The gun didn't have a detachable magazine did it? I wish they would release all the photos. I don't really want to see the gruesome ones, but I'd like to know where in the bedroom all the guns were kept.

ETA: I'd like to know why the original expert wouldn't take the case.
I didn't see a detachable magazine on the gun on the cage.

That house is such a mess, I find it hard to pick out anything. :shrug:

I'd like to know why the original expert wouldn't take the case too.

:)

[Justice_Dawg]

I must have missed that. Was this original expert for the defense or the prosecutor?
Prosecutor. ;)

[Crispy]

Did you look at the CV for the new expert?

[Crispy]

I wonder where this comes into play in all of this. A semi automatic shoots without having to be reloaded, right? And a boy of 8 would not be able to send away for or buy such a weapon anyway, right? Where was this item found? In the home? In the boy's room? In the car? Also, I am curious as to why anyone would be riding around in a car or truck with a gun on the seat. To me that is an action of self protection as if someone is expecting trouble or expecting the need to use a gun. Otherwise wouldn't it be kept in the glove compartment or in the trunk or under the seat?

Too bad the boy's attorney is not coming to this forum, much of his detective work is being done for him for free, as we speak.

I'm just wondering if the gun was somewhere else like you said glove compartment, under the seat, in the middle compartment and they just took it out so they could photograph it. Maybe they have pictures of where it was originally and it's just not released yet. Again I say Gag orders stink!! jmo

[Justice_Dawg]

Did you look at the CV for the new expert?
Nope. Did you? :)
I feel, as far as I've seen, the state has no case against the boy anyway.

[Justice_Dawg]

I'm just wondering if the gun was somewhere else like you said glove compartment, under the seat, in the middle compartment and they just took it out so they could photograph it. Maybe they have pictures of where it was originally and it's just not released yet. Again I say Gag orders stink!! jmo

If that were the case, (which I don't think it is) They would have pulled out all of the guns in the house and taken photos of them right? :shrug:

[bkwits]

I didn't say that I believed that he sat and cried beside his dad for 30 minutes....I said that that is what the boy said. I doubt that he had the time to sit and cry for even a few minutes because he would have wanted to get to Tim before Tim came into the house on his own and saw the dad. The video that I saw was taped after the funeral and after Tim's wife talked to LE.

How do you know that the boy is in shock. He didn't seem to be in shock to me but we obviously differ in opinions which is fine. We each have the right to have our own opinions and to post them here. That is what this forum is all about. I believe that the boy did murder his dad and Tim. You believe that someone else committed the murders. Neither of us have to prove anything here. We are here to discuss the case is all.

Thank you for posting. Since most of us posting here believe that the child was treated unfairly, even inhumanely, it is good to have a dissenting opinion. I don't who, how or why the two men were killed. Maybe the child did it, but there are serious unanswered questions about that. One or two things that I question and even protest. Why was this child first prepped by Officer Vila (we have no tape or notes on that, but Officer Nickel did testify that happened). So I believe because of the supposed phone conversation (Tim with his wife) that they had already decided the child did it and led him into the "confession." False confessions happen all of the time, even with adults.

Body language of the child suggests that when he admitted to shooting the men, he was lying about something (pulling the coat over his face).

As I understand it, Tim and the father were coming home together in the truck. The dad went in the house to change clothes, while Tim sat in the truck talking to his wife, so it seems the shootings happened within minutes of each other.

I would like to know where your information comes from that the child's rifle was used in the shootings. I haven't seen any forensics report on that.

Again, welcome. We can use your imput to figure this out.

[Amy S.]

I met someone that talked with a cousin of the boy. This someone stated that his family is not mad at the boy, but they are angry at the father for putting the boy in this situation.

That is all of the information that was offered, so my friend didn't pry.

But, the family could just be mad about the father buying a boy a gun.

[Crispy]

Nope. Did you? :)
I feel, as far as I've seen, the state has no case against the boy anyway.

My computer went wonky, had to restart. I asked CW about linking to the filings and she said so long as the boys name is not mentioned. I'm taking that to mean mentioned in the link, so I'm posting it. Hope I'm not wrong.

http://apacheschighprofile.googlegroups.com/web/JV2008065_Motion_Substitute_Psychiatrist.pdf

[forensicfan]

http://www.pendulumfoundation.com/messageboards/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=188

Thank you for the link

I just read it. I am NOT convinced he did this. I will not be convinced until I hear of something more concrete like blood or gunpowder on his clothes. Did the cops do a test for gunpowder residue on his hands? I need a whole lot more than merely a confession by an 8 year old.

[Crispy]

Justice Dawg, I meant to tell you the stepmother could possibly be on the witness list, there is a Tiffany Duvall listed as victim. I know the stepmothers name is Tiffany

[Crispy]

Thank you for the link

I just read it. I am NOT convinced he did this. I will not be convinced until I hear of something more concrete like blood or gunpowder on his clothes. Did the cops do a test for gunpowder residue on his hands? I need a whole lot more than merely a confession by an 8 year old.

It's my understanding they did not do GSR tests on his hands. Also, they did not collect his clothes that day. I believe it was 2 days later that they collected them. They mention that in the "confession" jmo

[Justice_Dawg]

My computer went wonky, had to restart. I asked CW about linking to the filings and she said so long as the boys name is not mentioned. I'm taking that to mean mentioned in the link, so I'm posting it. Hope I'm not wrong.

http://apacheschighprofile.googlegroups.com/web/JV2008065_Motion_Substitute_Psychiatrist.pdf

I am glad this defense attorney asked for a Jury Trial and the right to a speedy trial.

In one of those filings, the prosecutor says the crime lab or autosy findings won't be done by Nov 17th. (Nov. 17th was asked to be the deadline)

What are they going on then??????????????

If you ask me. :D This is why MOTION TO DISMISS COUNT ONE came on Nov. 21st.

Something isn't adding up here.

They are hanging on to COUNT TWO because they have the wife's word.

What are the hearsay laws in AZ? Anyone know?

[Justice_Dawg]

Justice Dawg, I meant to tell you the stepmother could possibly be on the witness list, there is a Tiffany Duvall listed as victim. I know the stepmothers name is Tiffany

Odd it isn't listed as Tiffany Romero.

????

[Crispy]

Maybe she hadn't changed her name legally yet. They hadn't been married that long. Who knows, I'm confused...still

[bkwits]

It's my understanding they did not do GSR tests on his hands. Also, they did not collect his clothes that day. I believe it was 2 days later that they collected them. They mention that in the "confession" jmo

Couldn't the child have picked up GSR from contact with the victime (his dad). I seem to remember in the Blake/Bakely case that they said that, but I'm not sure if that is right.

[VC2]

I am glad this defense attorney asked for a Jury Trial and the right to a speedy trial.

In one of those filings, the prosecutor says the crime lab or autosy findings won't be done by Nov 17th. (Nov. 17th was asked to be the deadline)

What are they going on then??????????????

If you ask me. :D This is why MOTION TO DISMISS COUNT ONE came on Nov. 21st.

Something isn't adding up here.

They are hanging on to COUNT TWO because they have the wife's word.

What are the hearsay laws in AZ? Anyone know?

Is the first count the murder of the father or roomate?

If they dismissed either of the murders that tells me one of two things. EITHER he did it and they have found evidence of sexual or physical abuse which would result in a not guilty verdict by any normal juror, OR they absolutely don't have any evidence, not even enough to prop up a "confession" and are only going with the 2nd count bc it can be assumed he 'lay in wait' or some such nonsense.

Either way, this child did not commit murder, that necessitates a full knowledge of what death is and the emotional maturity to understand their actions and the consequences. 8 year olds may know someone doesn't come back but they do not have the ability to fully understand what an adult does regarding death.

imo

[bkwits]

I am interested in the time line. What I recall so far is that the child got off the bus around 3 pm. The two men got off work at 4:20 or 4:30 pm.

Does anyone have any idea how long it takes to drive from their work to their home?

They apparently rode home in the same truck. Don't know for sure what time they got home.

Shots were heard when?

Child ran to neigbor's house, teenager there called his dad. Dad came home.

Who called 911? Was it the neighbor's dad?

911 call at 5 PM.

PD arrived at 5:06 PM.

Please correct the above or add to it.

What time did Tim call his wife?

[Crispy]

I'm not sure about that. I remember the defense argued in the Spector case that GSR can be transferred from anything. They said he could have gotten it from the police car or handcuffs. I have to take my son to school and I'll look for some links when I get back. jmo

[VC2]

I met someone that talked with a cousin of the boy. This someone stated that his family is not mad at the boy, but they are angry at the father for putting the boy in this situation.

That is all of the information that was offered, so my friend didn't pry.

But, the family could just be mad about the father buying a boy a gun.

sounds like more than that. unless there is proof otherwise, i believe that there was abuse by someone IF the child did it.

hmm just had a thought. Its also possible that someone knew of it and decided to take matters in to their own hand. Even with the child charged figuring he will be fine bc he is only 8 or not understanding that AZ has a demonic child justice law that allows him to be treated like an animal.
imo

[Justice_Dawg]

Is the first count the murder of the father or roomate?

If they dismissed either of the murders that tells me one of two things. EITHER he did it and they have found evidence of sexual or physical abuse which would result in a not guilty verdict by any normal juror, OR they absolutely don't have any evidence, not even enough to prop up a "confession" and are only going with the 2nd count bc it can be assumed he 'lay in wait' or some such nonsense.

Either way, this child did not commit murder, that necessitates a full knowledge of what death is and the emotional maturity to understand their actions and the consequences. 8 year olds may know someone doesn't come back but they do not have the ability to fully understand what an adult does regarding death.

imo


The fathers was dropped.

I don't think there was abuse by the father (except that VR taught the child how to use a gun)

I agree with the later: No Evidence and that this child did not commit murders.

[steffaroob4]

Well, I read the transcripts, I have a couple things I can't get my head wrapped around.

The gun shot that went into the porch screen door bothers me. Inward and down, seems like and odd direction. I sure wish I knew if they found a bullet hole somewhere. That shot was so low, I would think they would have found the ending place of that shot. I guess the screen door was open, is that what everyone else got from the transcript?

I find it strange that LE didn't have the child's clothes looked at before the hearing. They said there were casings close to both bodies, I would think that he would have to have blood patter on his clothes.

[emdragon]

I watched the interviews that are out so far and I didn't think LE were hard on this boy in fact I thought the female was very gentle with him. That is the only interview that I have seen so far. I didn't think she put words in his mouth either. By the time the interview I saw was done LE had talked to Tim's wife and had evidence that we haven't even heard yet but they knew he was the shooter. They were giving him a chance to tell them the truth. Slowly the truth started coming out. In that interview he admits shooting his dad and Tim twice each to put them out of their misery but he is still not telling the truth.

When they first interviewed this boy they thought he was a witness. Then the evidence starts coming in and they talk to Tim's wife at the funeral. By then they know that the boy shot each man 4 to 5 times each. They have evidence that we know nothing about. They can tell how tall the shooter was and many other things now. Were the boys fingerprints the only ones on that gun? It was that gun that shot all of the bullets. Tim was shot as he was coming towards the house from his truck which was parked near the house as there is not sidewalk. He gets shot and keeps trying to get to the house then he is shot a few more times. One shot hits the bottom of the screen door and seemed to have grazed Tim's head. Then Tim is shot in the head by the killer who is standing above him. I think we will find that this boy committed these murders by himself because he was angry at his dad.


I'm glad you saw nothing wrong with the interrogation. But EVER legal expert as well as medical experts disagree with you.

That "confession" simply is meaningless. He was trying to please the adults and said what they wanted him to say. But really all that matters in the end is he could NEVER have understood his rights-especially his right to remain silent because an 8 yr is taught to answer adults.

[steffaroob4]

I'm glad you saw nothing wrong with the interrogation. But EVER legal expert as well as medical experts disagree with you.

That "confession" simply is meaningless. He was trying to please the adults and said what they wanted him to say. But really all that matters in the end is he could NEVER have understood his rights-especially his right to remain silent because an 8 yr is taught to answer adults.

I find it very odd that they questioned him within 20 hours of the deaths, I can't imagine him even understanding what happened. Why on earth wouldn't they have examined his clothes before they questioned him? What if by chance it was an older teen or family member that did this and the boy was covering up for him? No matter what happened, I sure hope they have some froenscis to back up what they think.

[solar]

I find it very odd that they questioned him within 20 hours of the deaths, I can't imagine him even understanding what happened. Why on earth wouldn't they have examined his clothes before they questioned him? What if by chance it was an older teen or family member that did this and the boy was covering up for him? No matter what happened, I sure hope they have some froenscis to back up what they think.


ITA. I find it odd that even when they were questioning him as a witness, they did not have a parent/guardian or even someone from child protective services involved.

imo
solar

[bkwits]

I'm glad you saw nothing wrong with the interrogation. But EVER legal expert as well as medical experts disagree with you.

That "confession" simply is meaningless. He was trying to please the adults and said what they wanted him to say. But really all that matters in the end is he could NEVER have understood his rights-especially his right to remain silent because an 8 yr is taught to answer adults.

They (LE) never even advised him of his rights. I agree, he couldn't have understood them anyway.

[steffaroob4]

ITA. I find it odd that even when they were questioning him as a witness, they did not have a parent/guardian or even someone from child protective services involved.

imo
solar

I do too, my boys would have said anything at that age to get out of that room. It is too easy to put something in their heads at that age.
It would be hard enough to have to be in that room at 8 years old, but when you add to the fact he just lost his father and he saw the crime scene, I find it strange that he was even talked as a witness without anyone there to support him.

[steffaroob4]

As of right now, they don't, and that's why I feel so strongly about holding a small child of this age in solitary confinement instead of letting his mother take care of him until the trial, when they don't have any evidence against him other than a bad confession.

Before the holiday boards go up, let me remind everyone that anyone who would like to send letters of support or small donations for this boy can send me a message for the address.:seeya:

I don't get it, I sure hope they have some strong evidence, if this boy is innocent LE has done some real harm to this boy. Him being in solitary serves no purpose at this point in my mind, unless they have evidence, and I mean strong evidence that he did the crime.

[Details]

As I understand it, he's in solitary, because exposing him to the other teenagers would be a very bad thing for him - I'd agree with that - but that's all the more indication that they need to find a different place for him. An adult who kills two people can get out on bail - why not this child? At the worst, I'm sure there are foster care parents who deal with very troubled kids and are set up to handle a child who tries to run away, something like that would be far better. But the laws aren't set up well to deal with this. If they want to arrest 8 year olds, they need to figure out how to handle the result.

[Details]

Oh yeah, it is. She gets a half hour to hold him, once a week, IIRC, and some talk visits - that's nowhere near enough for such a young child. Foster care if they don't trust the mom, or with the mom, or a grandma, or such. They're doing serious harm to this child right now, guilty or innocent. He's simply not old enough for this.

[Crispy]

My son is 8. He sleeps with a nightlight and he is still scared to sleep alone. I sleep in the living room right next to his room. I can see him in his bed from the couch and he still worries. Also, he has trouble getting the shampoo out of the bottle when he takes a shower. What if this kid does? Is a complete stranger going to come in and help him? Are they making sure that he brushes his teeth real good? Does he have jammies? Seems like silly things for me to worry about, but I think any mother would do the same.

[Justice_Dawg]

Exactly, he is not old enough for this. The Judge should be ashamed of himself. I can't imagine how he is sleeping at night. If this kid went into this as an innocent child he is surely going to come out of it distrustful and with a loss of innocence and with a slew of emotional problems. They talk about this kid being a possible future serial killer but maybe the Judge, the Prosecutor and the Chief of Police are turning an innocent little boy into one with treating him less than an animal. I get sick every time I think about this.

Lifetime is airing that Crowe case you guys were talking about the other day. It's on tomorrow I think. Check it out.

And here is a great article from Crime Library on forced confessions with children: http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/not_guilty/coerced_confessions/6.html


Interrogation or Child Abuse?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkLHXKHb1Vc

[Justice_Dawg]

My son is 8. He sleeps with a nightlight and he is still scared to sleep alone. I sleep in the living room right next to his room. I can see him in his bed from the couch and he still worries. Also, he has trouble getting the shampoo out of the bottle when he takes a shower. What if this kid does? Is a complete stranger going to come in and help him? Are they making sure that he brushes his teeth real good? Does he have jammies? Seems like silly things for me to worry about, but I think any mother would do the same.

My SO's SIL called me yesterday to tell me something about her 8 yr old.
He and a friend (2-8 yr. olds) were playing in her older daughters room (she has moved out) and they accidently locked themselves in the closet. She said she heard them yelling and playing, but thought nothing of it. 5 minutes later they came at her VERY UPSET yellng "Why didn't you help us! We have been locked in the closet for an hour! We yelled and yelled for you!"

She told me she had just checked on them 15 min. prior and they were playing on the floor.

8 yr olds have no sense of time.

JMHO!

[FrankieBones1]

It bugged me a whole lot that the father wanted the son to know how to handle a gun and shoot rodents or whatever....everybody knows what they say about children that kill animals...

I think it's great that dads are teaching their sons to hunt but this boy was far too young. How ironic that the dad would end up dead by the very rifle he bought for that 'child'.

I'd love to know what it was like living in that house with those two men. What triggered all this?

[Crispy]

I would love to know that answer too Frankie!! I want to know the dynamics of that house. We have already heard that the stepmother was mad that the boy told his mother they(step and dad) were fighting.

[Justice_Dawg]

I would love to know that answer too Frankie!! I want to know the dynamics of that house. We have already heard that the stepmother was mad that the boy told his mother they(step and dad) were fighting.

Seems a lot of people want to know. Not just us. LOL
-----------
What was going on in that house? What about others, like where was Tiffany Romero in all of this? What kind of things were she and Vincent Romero allegedly frequently quarreling about? How close was she to the man who rented a room from them? What was causing this eight year old confessed shooter to become increasingly distant from his biological mother? Could Tiffany have been having an affair? And what affect did Tiffany have on this young boy? Was she the only daily female presence in his life? Could he have fired the gun at her request?

What does the physical evidence show? Could someone else have been the shooter? Had Erin Bloomfield really left town? Had she quarreled with her former husband? Had Mr. Roman walked in on something or seen who really killed Vincent Romero? Could Erin Bloomfield´s son be covering for her? Or could a third party have committed the crimes, threatening the young boy with bodily harm or harm to a loved one if he did not confess? Stranger things have happened.

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/81429

[Justice_Dawg]

Seems the boy has recieved gifts of toys already!! His Attorney said a lot of people are concerned for him. :)

Attorney also says A LOT more! Great Video! I put it on the links page also

http://www.abc15.com/mediacenter/local.aspx?videoid=17704@knxv.dayport.com&navCatId=3

[Crispy]

That's one of those sights my computer won't play. Gonna mess around with it for a little bit

[Details]

I'm glad that they've gotten toys already, so he can know, during his Thanksgiving break, that a lot of people are concerned for him.

[Justice_Dawg]

I'm glad that they've gotten toys already, so he can know, during his Thanksgiving break, that a lot of people are concerned for him.
In the video, The attorney also says the detention center people have a lot of empathy for him and are treating him very well.
Made me feel a little better.
I sent my donation for the family today. Now I want to send toys too. :seeya:

[Details]

The detention center might be flooded with toys. Not a bad thing - let's let these kids remember that they're still kids - they can choose to go back, and grow up right! Rehabilitate them, rather than turn out pre-hardened criminals.

[Justice_Dawg]

Hi, Justice! As you know I have been unable to eat and have been having trouble sleeping for the past week since I heard about this little boy. I saw the clip that you posted and you cannot imagine how grateful I am that you found that and post it for us. I also feel so much better now that I have gotten a look at the attorney and heard what he had to say. The attorney looks like a swell guy, a real down to earth guy that cares about this kid. Also, I was glad to hear that gifts and donations are starting to come in. Between myself and every single member of my family, for the cost of a few stamps, we have already mailed out cards, letters, small donations of checks and cash and even a crucifix for the boy to keep at his bedside if they will let him. I am planning on sending a stuffed animal for him to sleep with and maybe some books for him to read, if they will let him have it. I am glad the attorney is okay about people sending things to his office.

From what he said on the clip, I think he is already looking at the confession along the lines of the Michael Crowe interrogation and I am glad that this seed is in his head.

I am relieved that the folks in the detention center have empathy for him. At least I can sleep at night knowing if he has a stomach ache or is crying, someone will go over to him and comfort him.

I feel so much better, thanks so much for posting that clip! :seeya:

You are very welcome my friend. I hope you can enjoy your Holiday a little better now. I know I will.

ITA with your take on it too. He won't let anyone hurt or railroad that little boy! :seeya:

[Justice_Dawg]

They just posted a STATES 3RD DISCLOSURE on the site, then took it down real quick.

But not before I read it.

Transcript of 911 call
Transcript (I think) of DVD

and one other stupid little thing.

STILL NO FORENSICS, AUTOPSY, NOTHING! :flamemad:
I wonder why they took it down?:confused:

[Justice_Dawg]

OMG! Justice Dawg. I just watched this video. It was heartwrenching watching them torturing this boy. This is exactly what I saw when I was watching that video of the Arizona boy. I also wonder what they threatened him with outside of the camera or before the camera started which would make him say "I'm going to Juvy". Those black hearted despicable animals! They should be taken out and hanged for child abuse. That Crowe boy will never be the same. He had a nervous break down right on camera and they sat there and brought it on and perpetuated that. This is what happened to the Arizona boy and this is the reason I cannot watch that little boy going through that torture. Those two twisted cops that took that boy that day into that room should be fired immediate and sued and then jailed for child abuse. OMG I am sick over this.

If you ever get the chance, read about the whole case:
But the family's nightmare had only just begun. In the weeks to follow her brother, Michael, then 14, and two of his friends, Joshua Treadway and Aaron Houser, were charged with conspiring to kill her.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/reports/crowe/
--------------
The prosecutors said the Crowe boy did it because he played "Dungens and Dragons" and had a knife collection.

The boys had to go to trial.
SICK IS RIGHT!!

[Crispy]

There are about 3 filings up now. Going to read in case they take them down again

[Crispy]

Well, the boys lawyer objected to the prosecution dismissing without prejudice. They want it dismissed with prejudice. They said that one of the reasons they want it dismissed is because they can wait and charge the boy when he is 15 and charge him as an adult!!!

ETA The state wants to delay the ruling on funds for an expert in false confessions.

[Justice_Dawg]

Well, the boys lawyer objected to the prosecution dismissing without prejudice. They want it dismissed with prejudice. They said that one of the reasons they want it dismissed is because they can wait and charge the boy when he is 15 and charge him as an adult!!!

ETA The state wants to delay the ruling on funds for an expert in false confessions.


Defense went on to say that not dropping count 2 is a tactic to keep the boy in jail. :flamemad:

I still see NO EVIDENCE the boy did this.

GSR on cloths. Takes a minute or two. If it is there, count it, done. What is taking so long???

[Crispy]

The only thing I can think of that would cause a delay is them sending the evidence to a state lab.

[bkwits]

I was glad to hear the child's attorney speak about the case and the well=being of the child. Wasn't he supposed to be bound by the gag order?

I find it suspicious, maybe even devious, that they obtained a gag order yet put that "confession" tape out there for everyone to see and hear.

[bkwits]

Are these people idiots or are they satan's advocates. That's what I want to know. Can you imagine keeping this boy in jail based on NO ZERO ZILCH evidence? What are in now, a police state? These people are on crack. The law firm for this boy seems to be on top of their game! Good for them. At least with them being one step ahead of the bozo's who are running St. John's and the State of Arizona, the boy has a fighting chance.

Hang in there, sweetie. The calvary is coming!!!!:rose:

Even in the Ryan Harris murder (11yo girl), the two little boys, 7& 8, were kept in a children's psychiatric hospital, then released to their parents under house arrest. In that case, the boys were told what to say, then LE and Pros. said the kids had knowledge of the crime that no one else had. Since their was evidence of sexual abuse, they got the boys to say that the played with her "softly". Well, DNA proved that Ryan was raped and murdered by Floyd Durr, who was charged with 3 other sexual assualts of young girls.

This case is similar in that the children had no adult present other than LE for the questioning, and their were relatives outside wanting to go in.

[Justice_Dawg]

Boy's Lawyer Objects To Defense Move
POSTED: 5:47 pm MST November 25, 2008

"This is prejudice at its best," he said.

http://www.kpho.com:80/news/18147759/detail.html

[Details]

He can't comment about much of the case, the evidence, etc. - but - objecting to the dropping of a charge because he wants it dropped all the way - that's the action of a defense lawyer very confident in his case, IMO.

Might be wishful thinking, this might all be tactics, and indeed, for the boy, tried as a juvenile, doesn't matter one murder or two - but a second try at a trial wouldn't be a good thing - but I'm going to go with the optimistic view - he's confident he's got them on the run, no evidence.

[Justice_Dawg]

He can't comment about much of the case, the evidence, etc. - but - objecting to the dropping of a charge because he wants it dropped all the way - that's the action of a defense lawyer very confident in his case, IMO.

Might be wishful thinking, this might all be tactics, and indeed, for the boy, tried as a juvenile, doesn't matter one murder or two - but a second try at a trial wouldn't be a good thing - but I'm going to go with the optimistic view - he's confident he's got them on the run, no evidence.
ITA!!!
Post of the day! :beer:

[Justice_Dawg]

I would only like to ask why is it that in every single one of these newspaper articles nothing is mentioned that the boy may not have committed these crimes. They hardly ever stress that and make these articles out to seem like this boy not only committed these crimes but also that he has already been convicted. It just does not seem fair.

Because most people believe that once you are accused, you are GUILTY. They think, why else would the cops arrest you?

Stupid media reports Now you know why I won't watch TV They have no factual knowledge of what is actually going on. They want ratings, no matter what the cost. :flamemad:

I sent this to you earlier, now I want everyone to see it because any of this, can happen to anyone one of us:

Finally Free After 20 Years

Innocence Project client Steven Barnes was 23 when he went to prison for a murder and rape he has always said he didn’t commit. Today, at age 42, he walked out of an upstate New York courthouse a free man, due to DNA test results supporting his longstanding claim of innocence.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/

[Justice_Dawg]

This thread is very frustrating.

Let's be honest, odds are this boy shot and killed two people.

Should he be with a guardian right now? Probably, but let's don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, he killed two people.


JMO
WE are being honest.

Where did you get your GUILTY AS CHARGED information?

[bkwits]

This thread is very frustrating.

Let's be honest, odds are this boy shot and killed two people.

Should he be with a guardian right now? Probably, but let's don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, he killed two people.


JMO

Are there other reasons, other than the dubious confession that make you think that the child did it?

[Crispy]

I am going to be honest. If this boy did kill two people, yes he deserves to be punished. Does he deserve life behind bars? or even until he's 18 behind bars? I don't think so. As of right now, I can not say that he did it. Too many unanswered questions.

If he didn't do it, well he is going through something right now I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. jmo

[Streetdreamer]

Well, I figured they would eventually drop both charges at some point. I am convinced this is a coerced confession. If the police followed proper protocol, perhaps we would know the truth by now and the suspects captured. I'm convinced that the initial report given by this kid was accurate.

A confession, albeit false, is still tricky in a court of law. Judges are humans too, and they will view the confession before deciding if its admissable. I believe such a viewing can cause a judge to become prejudiced whether it be for or against a defendant. So even inadmissible confessions can effect your case. Top it off, you run the risk of one of the jurors hearing about "a confession" by the prosecution during jury selection by simply asking "if you have heard about this case did you hear about a confession"? That comment alone will taint an entire jury. Meanwhile, judges dont want to start all over with the hassle of jury selection so they will permit such an act.

This kid is in a jail, not a padded room with sunlight, friends, free jello, and stuffed animals around him. He's in a jail, like he's actually gonna hop in a car and flee. Where is he going to go? What diabolical plot does this 8yr old have planned once he leaves the jail. Is he gonna take off like Brian Nichols and go on a killing spree? Really this child has no reason to be in jail. What they fear is the mother coercing his testimony. Thats why he remains in prison. I say dont worry about what the mother supposedly might do, worry about your own souls and determine whether holding this 8yr in isolation is going to increase your odds of going to heaven.

[bkwits]

A poster on another forum feels that a semi-automatic was used especially because of the chest wounds. He says that there is a 6 sec. time delay between single shots fired. He feels the victim would not just be standing there taking the shots in the chest waiting for the shooter to reload and fire.

My expert (my son, the hunter) also found it hard to believe that the child could have gotten off ten rounds in a short time space.

Just thought I'd pass that along.

[Details]

One more reason why I'd say odds are that the kid didn't do it. The different shell casing - and, yeah, no way anyone is going to stand there as an 8 year old loads a new cartidge into his gun and shoots again. We've still got no evidence saying the kids gun was used - a 22 - they seem sure of that - but which one? Not to mention, two shots from the top of the stairs, and two from the middle landing - how does an 8 year old go over a body without getting blood on themselves?


But - if somehow, unlikely as it is, this kid did it, is the incredibly rare case where an 8 year old kills deliberately - he's still 8. He believes in Santa Claus, watches movies where people get up after jumping off of a building, being shot is an inconvenience, and death is just temporary. I don't see how you even make a murder charge - how to be sure he understood what death was? 8 year olds simply don't understand that. So even forming intent, even if we overlook the way 8 year old brains work and don't, even if we forget why it is we don't let 8 year olds ever make decisions for themselves, is really not something he's going to be much able to do.

[fairlaw]

This is the most disgusting case I have ever witnessed.

I thought the Sommers case was off the charts, it pales in comparrison to this one.

This country is beginning to remind me of why our forefathers came here.

The prosecutors and police are completely out of control. It might as well be 1600's England, where if you are accused, you are guilty.

I can't even imagine that this little boy killed anyone. And on the absolutely insane chance that he did, do you really want to live in a country that puts 8-year olds in jail?

I acutally had an interesting thought. What if someone else shot the dad and the roommate, and the little boy actually saw his father suffering, and shot him. He was probably taught that in hunting lessons.

I don't seriously think that is what happened at all. I think someone else did it. But the little boy saying, "He was suffering" concerns me.

[BobbisAngel]

The fathers was dropped.

I don't think there was abuse by the father (except that VR taught the child how to use a gun)

I agree with the later: No Evidence and that this child did not commit murders.


They did drop the charge for the murder of the father With Prejudice which means that they can charge him again for the crime at anytime even years down the road because a charge of murder can always be brought.

It has been said that they are going to go to trial or before a judge for the murder of the roomer as he is the one that they feel should come first as the boy called the man into the house as he lay in wait. It seems that they have the evidence that they need for this charge. I'm not sure of their thinking but this is what I have read. The pros plan to charge the boy with the murder of his father down the road but didn't want to try the two together because it would end up with one verdict and there were two murders and they feel he should have to pay the consequences for two murders.

I don't think this boy will be charged as an adult. I think that is way out of line because of his age. I just don't look for that to happen. I would imagine that they have the testing of the bullets back by now and the autopsys are done. They must know which gun the bullets came from and whose fingerprints were on the gun and shells. I would think they have most of the evidence back now. DNA is what takes so long to come back. They can tell a lot of things with forensics now so they probably know how tall the shooter and where he was standing when the shots were fired.

[BobbisAngel]

Bobbie's Angel, just stop okay? Stop. Whether you believe the boy is innocent or guilty, that's your prerogative. The poster VC above is right. I have been trying to figure out why I cannot sleep or eat for the last week since I have heard about this 8 year old boy being kept in detention center in isolation since November 6 which is 2 weeks now. As I had said before, I have a very close family relative who is exactly 8 years old and I know one thing about an 8 year old boy. They are trying to be acting all grown up but they still sleep with a nightlight and cry for their mother when they get hurt or when they are scared. Whenever I think about this boy which is all the time now, I keep coming back to that. He still has his baby teeth, for God sake. All I know is that keeping a small child away from it's mother is inhumane. Every mother in this country should be going to St. Johns and protesting this. If it can happen to this woman's 8 year old, it can happen to anybody's. BABIES DO NOT BELONG IN JAIL.Here is my new signature. Mothers Against Babies In Jail



Are you telling me that I don't have the right to come here and voice my opinion....that only the people who believe that this boy is innocent have the right to come here and give their opinion? You know that isn't what these forums are all about. We all have the right to give our opinions on here without anyone critizing us because of our opinion.

I don't think there is anyone in this world who wants to see this boy spend the rest of his life locked up. Whether he shot and killed his dad and Tim remains to be seen. You don't know any more about this case then the rest of us including me. We are all giving opinions and that is all so please don't tell me to stop. I have as much right to give my opinion as you do. We should show some respect towards each other even if we don't agree. Time will tell if this boy did murder his dad and Tim. We won't know anything until there is a trial or the boy goes before a judge and the judge makes a decision about whether he is guilty or innocent.

This is a sad case and it is a heartbreaking one too. I hope this little boy didn't do these horrible things and he can go home with his mom and continue on being a little boy. We just have to wait and see what happens. I highly doubt that there is anyone in LE that want to hang this little boy. The whole thing is probably heartbreaking for them too as they are fathers and grandfathers...mothers and grandmothers too.

[Justice_Dawg]

A poster on another forum feels that a semi-automatic was used especially because of the chest wounds. He says that there is a 6 sec. time delay between single shots fired. He feels the victim would not just be standing there taking the shots in the chest waiting for the shooter to reload and fire.

My expert (my son, the hunter) also found it hard to believe that the child could have gotten off ten rounds in a short time space.

Just thought I'd pass that along.

We know that the casings found could have been shot from other guns, and I totally agree that the gun may have been a semi-automatic.
ITA with your son too. :seeya:
Thanks!

[Justice_Dawg]

They did drop the charge for the murder of the father With Prejudice which means that they can charge him again for the crime at anytime even years down the road because a charge of murder can always be brought.

It has been said that they are going to go to trial or before a judge for the murder of the roomer as he is the one that they feel should come first as the boy called the man into the house as he lay in wait. It seems that they have the evidence that they need for this charge. I'm not sure of their thinking but this is what I have read. The pros plan to charge the boy with the murder of his father down the road but didn't want to try the two together because it would end up with one verdict and there were two murders and they feel he should have to pay the consequences for two murders.

I don't think this boy will be charged as an adult. I think that is way out of line because of his age. I just don't look for that to happen. I would imagine that they have the testing of the bullets back by now and the autopsys are done. They must know which gun the bullets came from and whose fingerprints were on the gun and shells. I would think they have most of the evidence back now. DNA is what takes so long to come back. They can tell a lot of things with forensics now so they probably know how tall the shooter and where he was standing when the shots were fired.


1: They ASKED to dropped the charge on the father WITHOUT Prejudice.
2: I don't care "what has been said" A MOTION FOR JURY TRIAL was filed Nov. 19th
3: Glad you can imagine that they have the testing of the bullets back by now. And that they must know which gun the bullets came from and whose fingerprints were on the gun and shells. You might think they have most of the evidence back by now, BUT the state said in a filing they ARE NOT back yet. Defense has none of that informtion as of yesterday.

If you would be so kind as to inform yourself on the FACTS in this case, I may reconsider reading anymore of your postings. :seeya:

[PensiveOne]

I am new to the forum and this is my first post, anywhere, ever:seeya:

I don't know how often I will visit, but I will tell you that your forum is very informative and I would like to thank you for all of the links you have provided.

If I don't do some things correctly please tell me, but be kind;)

I joined this forum because this case is so mindboggling. I am on the fence as to who did this crime, but I still find it hard to believe that this little boy could have shot two grown men with a .22 single bolt action rifle without them being able to stop him. I know it's not impossible but improbable. I think the rifle is a red herring. If the little boy came home and found the men dead he may have grabbed the gun because he was scared that whomever killed his father and his father's friend would come back or was still in the house.

What kind of gun was it that is pictured in the seat of the truck? What kind of ammunition does it use?

This is such a sad case.

[Justice_Dawg]

This is the most disgusting case I have ever witnessed.

I thought the Sommers case was off the charts, it pales in comparrison to this one.

This country is beginning to remind me of why our forefathers came here.

The prosecutors and police are completely out of control. It might as well be 1600's England, where if you are accused, you are guilty.

I can't even imagine that this little boy killed anyone. And on the absolutely insane chance that he did, do you really want to live in a country that puts 8-year olds in jail?

I acutally had an interesting thought. What if someone else shot the dad and the roommate, and the little boy actually saw his father suffering, and shot him. He was probably taught that in hunting lessons.

I don't seriously think that is what happened at all. I think someone else did it. But the little boy saying, "He was suffering" concerns me.

The boy said he shot his dad because "He was suffering". He only said this after they asked him why he shot his dad. As I see it, how else could he have answered? What other answer could an 8 yr old have except to say something he has been taught.
The boy never wavers from the fact that both men were already down.
He constantly says he didn't shoot the gun that day.
MOO-I really don't think they will find GSR on his cloths.

[bkwits]

I am new to the forum and this is my first post, anywhere, ever:seeya:

I don't know how often I will visit, but I will tell you that your forum is very informative and I would like to thank you for all of the links you have provided.

If I don't do some things correctly please tell me, but be kind;)

I joined this forum because this case is so mindboggling. I am on the fence as to who did this crime, but I still find it hard to believe that this little boy could have shot two grown men with a .22 single bolt action rifle without them being able to stop him. I know it's not impossible but improbable. I think the rifle is a red herring. If the little boy came home and found the men dead he may have grabbed the gun because he was scared that whomever killed his father and his father's friend would come back or was still in the house.

What kind of gun was it that is pictured in the seat of the truck? What kind of ammunition does it use?

This is such a sad case.

Welcome to the forum. :seeya:

I don't know what kind of handgun was on the seat of the truck or what kind of ammunition it uses. It is my guess that it didn't play a part in the shootings.

[incidentally]

Boy's Lawyer Objects To Defense Move
POSTED: 5:47 pm MST November 25, 2008

"This is prejudice at its best," he said.

http://www.kpho.com:80/news/18147759/detail.html

The prosecutors in the case frighten me. It appears, from this article, it's all boiling down to tactic and not facts. Why are they so adamant about crucifying this little boy? Either they have some very solid evidence that we don't know of or they are power monsters..imo.

[Justice_Dawg]

http://www.kpho.com/slideshow/news/18019101/detail.html

I have concerns about a particular picture I noticed in the crime scene photos and was wondering if anyone knew anything about it.

On one of the stairs, there is a belt lying there. I am wondering if it might be possible that the belt belonged to Dad and he might have taken it off to spank the child with it and somehow that may have led to this tragedy.

Whatever the case-I have another question. Why isn't step-mom being charged with a crime? I would never allow my 8 year old to come home off the bus after school all alone, let alone to a house full of loaded unlocked guns.

Doesn't she, along with the deceased father, own a HUGE amount of the blame in this entire situation?

:flamemad:

So dad came home at 5 pm, chased the boy while taking off his belt to swat him, and the boy ran and got his chipmonk gun and shot him?
??????????

Or was that the belt used the night before by stepmom to give him the swats and it was just thrown on the step and left there. From looking at the rest of the house, it wouldn't surprise me.

IMO- The casing is marked as evidence, not the belt. If LE saw the belt missing from VR, the belt would have had it's own tag. But.. we are talking Mayberry here.

[Justice_Dawg]

The prosecutors in the case frighten me. It appears, from this article, it's all boiling down to tactic and not facts. Why are they so adamant about crucifying this little boy? Either they have some very solid evidence that we don't know of or they are power monsters..imo.

Google their names. :D

[bkwits]

http://www.kpho.com/slideshow/news/18019101/detail.html

I have concerns about a particular picture I noticed in the crime scene photos and was wondering if anyone knew anything about it.

On one of the stairs, there is a belt lying there. I am wondering if it might be possible that the belt belonged to Dad and he might have taken it off to spank the child with it and somehow that may have led to this tragedy.

Whatever the case-I have another question. Why isn't step-mom being charged with a crime? I would never allow my 8 year old to come home off the bus after school all alone, let alone to a house full of loaded unlocked guns.

Doesn't she, along with the deceased father, own a HUGE amount of the blame in this entire situation?

:flamemad:

I kind of doubt that the dad was going to beat the child with a belt. It seems as though, from the child's telling, that the dad had the step-mom spank the child.

This seems to be a messy, chaotic household. I have said since day one, that the firearms should have been locked up or somehow made inaccessible to the 8 year old. Especially since he was given the rifle and the ammunition.

I don't think it is productive to charge the step-mom with anything at this point. She is suffering enough. IMO.

[Justice_Dawg]

Welcome to the forum. :seeya:

I don't know what kind of handgun was on the seat of the truck or what kind of ammunition it uses. It is my guess that it didn't play a part in the shootings.

Looks like a 9mm Tanfoglio to me. :seeya:

JMHO :hat:

[bkwits]

I have to disagree with you on this point, respectfully. This child has suffered enough. This woman and her husband allowed their 8 year old boy to have unrestricted access to a fully loaded shotgun with ammunition laying around the house. While hunters certainly have guns and teach their kids, I would imagine any serious hunter would know the dangers that guns can pose and would be smart enough to lock them up with children around.

While she may very well be suffering, she is a key component of this case and needs to be interviewed and even interoogated (if they can do it to the boy, why not the wife?) I think this woman knows exactly what has been going on in that household.

Also-in my opinion, a step mother has no right to spank a child that is not hers. His father should have done that, if anything. He has a mother. Yet he has been taught to call step-mom "Mom." This whole thing stinks to high heaven, if you ask me.

I wish I could go down to the detention center, grab that little boy and give him a huge hug!

I tucked my 8 year old into bed last night and he makes me leave the light on and sleep with a stuffed animal. This child cannot get his backpack ready for school without my help, let alone plot and carry out two murders with multiple gunshot wounds while having to reload several times.

Oh, my sympathy is definitely with the child in this mess. If you've read my past postings, you would see this is true. I just see no point in charging the stepmom in this case unless she had something to do with the shooting. I would think she has been interviewed or questioned but I don't know for certain.

I would never have allowed my husband to discipline my children (his stepchildren). That is, I would not allowed corporal discipline. However, maybe if they must do it, it is better for a woman to "swat" the child. I don't know. It seems like to me that there are better ways to discipline an 8 year old.

BTW, was the house really in that much of a mess? Or was this after the search?

[Justice_Dawg]

Looks like a 9mm Tanfoglio to me. :seeya:

JMHO :hat:
OK, I'll quote myself. :D

Anyone agree the handgun on the seat is a Tanfoglio?

http://www.eaacorp.com/handguns-witness-steel-description.html

Tanfoglio Design and Quality
Slide in Frame Design
Ergonomic Grip Angle
Available in 9mm, 10mm, .38 Super, .40 SW & .45ACP
Optional Conversion Kits - .22LR, 9mm, .40SW, .45ACP, 10mm

[bkwits]

OK, I'll quote myself. :D

Anyone agree the handgun on the seat is a Tanfoglio?

http://www.eaacorp.com/handguns-witness-steel-description.html

Tanfoglio Design and Quality
Slide in Frame Design
Ergonomic Grip Angle
Available in 9mm, 10mm, .38 Super, .40 SW & .45ACP
Optional Conversion Kits - .22LR, 9mm, .40SW, .45ACP, 10mm

I hate to say this, but they all look alike to me. ;)

[BorderCollieMom]

http://www.kpho.com/slideshow/news/18019101/detail.html

I have concerns about a particular picture I noticed in the crime scene photos and was wondering if anyone knew anything about it.

On one of the stairs, there is a belt lying there. I am wondering if it might be possible that the belt belonged to Dad and he might have taken it off to spank the child with it and somehow that may have led to this tragedy.

Whatever the case-I have another question. Why isn't step-mom being charged with a crime? I would never allow my 8 year old to come home off the bus after school all alone, let alone to a house full of loaded unlocked guns.

Doesn't she, along with the deceased father, own a HUGE amount of the blame in this entire situation?

:flamemad:

IMO, that looks like a childs belt. Just eyeing it and trying to get a measurement, it looks like a childs belt to me. I have an 8 yr old & a 13 yr old.

[BorderCollieMom]

OK, I'll quote myself. :D

Anyone agree the handgun on the seat is a Tanfoglio?

http://www.eaacorp.com/handguns-witness-steel-description.html

Tanfoglio Design and Quality
Slide in Frame Design
Ergonomic Grip Angle
Available in 9mm, 10mm, .38 Super, .40 SW & .45ACP
Optional Conversion Kits - .22LR, 9mm, .40SW, .45ACP, 10mm


point me to the picture of the gun in the truck. I am just seeing some photos here & there on the net. Are they all in 1 place somewhere Im missing ?

Anyone knows the boys weight & how tall he is ?

[Crispy]

I asked my husband last night about the gun in the truck. (He's my gun expert. LOL) He said that it was probably a 9mm, but he couldn't read the brand on the handle, but your link looks just like it so I'll trust you!

The house was a mess, but my house is a mess sometimes too. God forbid someone walk in right now, my kids are out of school looks like a tornado went through here.

I would really like to hear the stepmothers statement. I would also like to hear how many times this boy shot the gun before this happened. I had read that he had only been given the gun recently.

[Crispy]

point me to the picture of the gun in the truck. I am just seeing some photos here & there on the net. Are they all in 1 place somewhere Im missing ?

Anyone knows the boys weight & how tall he is ?

Check the links thread for the photos, I put up three links. I believe it's #6 in the last link, but they all have somewhat different photos.

[PensiveOne]

Welcome to the forum. :seeya:

I don't know what kind of handgun was on the seat of the truck or what kind of ammunition it uses. It is my guess that it didn't play a part in the shootings.

Thanks, for the welcome:) You are probably right about the gun. I just am looking at all angles.

[Justice_Dawg]

I hate to say this, but they all look alike to me. ;)LOL

Here is Brittany shooting .22 Chipmunk rifle outside
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foeiuG64FfY
Little kid shooting a .22 inside
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxgXw-8aS2g
(Watch the reload)

Here is a Tanfoglio Handgun outside
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UK7xHzZkcHI
Here is a Tanfoglio Handgun inside
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oz3q6v4OuxQ


What kind of pop did witnesses hear?

[PensiveOne]

OK, I'll quote myself. :D

Anyone agree the handgun on the seat is a Tanfoglio?

http://www.eaacorp.com/handguns-witness-steel-description.html

Tanfoglio Design and Quality
Slide in Frame Design
Ergonomic Grip Angle
Available in 9mm, 10mm, .38 Super, .40 SW & .45ACP
Optional Conversion Kits - .22LR, 9mm, .40SW, .45ACP, 10mm

Thanks, Justice_Dawg. Good info! I agree that looks like the same gun. I can't tell if the safety is off or on. I no NOTHING about handguns. So, although not likely it is "possible" that it could have been used. I guess we will know more if they ever release the evidence.

[Crispy]

There is a new filing up, but I'm not sure what the heck their talking about.

ETA: Oh it's about his Thanksgiving with his mom

[bkwits]

LOL

Here is Brittany shooting .22 Chipmunk rifle outside
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foeiuG64FfY
Little kid shooting a .22 inside
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxgXw-8aS2g
(Watch the reload)

Here is a Tanfoglio Handgun outside
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UK7xHzZkcHI
Here is a Tanfoglio Handgun inside
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oz3q6v4OuxQ


What kind of pop did witnesses hear?

Thank you, JD, those links are very interesting. It reinforces, IMO, that it takes time to aim, shoot, reload, aim again, shoot, reload, aim. etc. It just does not seem likely that the single shot rifle was used or the only gun used.

[Justice_Dawg]

There is a new filing up, but I'm not sure what the heck their talking about.

ETA: Oh it's about his Thanksgiving with his mom

They are saying he won't have detention security with him for the 48 hrs. as first ordered.



:beer:

[Crispy]

Hey where did we first read that he would have detention people with him? I looked for it and couldn't find it. TIA

[Justice_Dawg]

That handgun could use the same bullets as the .22 with a conversion kit.

Lots of people covert them.

Was it converted?

[Crispy]

I asked my husband if the bullets could have been fired from the gun in the truck and he said that he didn't believe so.

[bookie]

LOL

Here is Brittany shooting .22 Chipmunk rifle outside
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foeiuG64FfY
Little kid shooting a .22 inside
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxgXw-8aS2g
(Watch the reload)

Here is a Tanfoglio Handgun outside
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UK7xHzZkcHI
Here is a Tanfoglio Handgun inside
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oz3q6v4OuxQ


What kind of pop did witnesses hear?



Two ththings right off the bat about the first link. An adult could very easily shoot that gun and that pop was loud. There is no way Tim could have been shot 4 times outside by the 8 year with reloading included and no one noticed anything.

[Justice_Dawg]

I asked my husband if the bullets could have been fired from the gun in the truck and he said that he didn't believe so.

Did he say why?

[Justice_Dawg]

Two ththings right off the bat about the first link. An adult could very easily shoot that gun and that pop was loud. There is no way Tim could have been shot 4 times outside by the 8 year with reloading included and no one noticed anything.

Tim was shot 6 times outside. ;)

[Crispy]

You know, he didn't. When he gets home today, I'll ask him the specifics on it. I didn't ask him about any conversion or anything like that.

I know that he did say, it all has to do with the length and width of the bullet and the barrel.

I may have convoluted that. LOL He'll be home soon I'll ask him.

[BorderCollieMom]

Looks like a 9mm Tanfoglio to me. :seeya:

JMHO :hat:


thanks Crispy, I found the photo....and Justice Dawg, I blew up the photo 400% and that is what it says on the handle.

[Details]

I believe that Tim's wife heard him in the background after his father was already shot.

Either he shot them both or he stood there and watched while someone else did it.

No other explanation in my mind. Still IMO, odds are he shot and killed 2 people.There are several other explanations.

First - look at this crime - multiple shots in the chest, father found face down. OK - so he's shot in the chest, and stands there and waits as the boy reloads, and shoots him again? This crime may not be possible with a single load shotgun. Different shells, a blood trail from Tim's truck - if the child called him in, shot him while he was out by the truck (quite a good shot to be able to do that at 8), then reloaded, and Tim decides to run towards the gunfire? Doesn't get his own gun from his truck? Doesn't go to a neighbors? Makes no sense at all. Odds are that the kid didn't do it. Nothing about this fits with the capabilities of an 8 year old body, nor a single load gun.

So - other explanations. One simple one - she's mistaken. Heard a different voice. Or is angry and sure the kid did it, so she makes up some evidence to get police looking at him. Another sinister one - she knows who did it, and is covering for them, by pointing police to an easy suspect. And another one - someone - family friend, relative, or complete stranger did indeed have the little kid call Tim in, and threatened the kid with horrible things if he told the truth.

The confession is meaningless - the cops lead him, tell him what they want to hear, he tells them. But they can never get him to tell any story that remotely matches the crime scene, and it's all phrased in a way that is clearly an 8 year old saying what he thinks they want to hear, making up a motive when they ask for one.

[Details]

Multiple shots to the chest, for both men. So - do they both stand there, as he reloads, with a bullet in their chest? Shooting down when they're on the ground would be hard - and with an 8 year old would mean a contact shot, something they'd easily be able to identify. And it'd be impossible on the father, he landed face down. So, he has to have stood there as multiple shots were fired into his chest.

[Justice_Dawg]

New file up.

[PensiveOne]

New file up.

Dang, they changed the court site. I can't get into it anymore:shrug:

[Justice_Dawg]

Can anyone help me with the following questions?

1.) Did the two men drive home from work in the same truck?
2.) What time did the bus drop the child off at home?
3.) What time did the men arrive at home?
4.) How far away from the front door was the truck parked?
5.) What time was the call made from Tim to his wife and what time did he hang up?
6.) Where was step-mom all this time? Does she work? Does she have an alibi?
7.) Who called 9-1-1?
8.) Where was the gun typically kept? In the boy's room? Unlocked? Loaded?
9.) Has anyone seen or heard from step-mom? Has she visited the boy in jail? Is she supporting him?
10.) Does anyone have any idea of the background of the divorce and custody of this child and as to why he lived with his dad in Arizona while Mom lived in Mississippi?

From Officer testimony,
1- only Tim's Truck was there.
2- 3pm
3- about 20 ft (?)
4- 5pm
5- origination unknown - wife said when the boy called for him. ???
6- Works till 5pm. Mon and Wed. Don't know alibi
7- A Neighbor after the boy went to his friends house, the friend called his dad, he called 911
8- I still dont have a clue on that.
9- We have neither heard from nor seen the stepmother.
10- Not much. Joint custody, Mom moved to Mississippi. (Can't say I blame her now)

Anyone care to add/correct anything, be my guest. :seeya:

[Justice_Dawg]

Dang, they changed the court site. I can't get into it anymore:shrug:

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/

[Details]

Dang, they changed the court site. I can't get into it anymore:shrug:Look in the links thread, the new one is there.

[PensiveOne]

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/

Thanks, Justice;)

[Crispy]

Motion for a jury trial was denied.

[blue bird]

First let me begin by saying that I think it is highly unlikely this boy committed this crime.

But friend at work knows the father's family and she said the dad's uncle told her that the day after the shooting, the little boy "admitted that he shot them.

IF he did tell this to his family, I think that after being interrogated the way he was, he probably doesn't know what the truth is anymore.

Also, what is up with all the guns in these people's possession?

[Justice_Dawg]

Motion for a jury trial was denied.

If the case goes forth in juvenile court, it will not be a jury trial.

The defense has given the State 15 days (from Nov 19Th) to decide if it wants to try to have the boy tried as an adult.


:rolleyes:

[blue bird]

Motion for a jury trial was denied.

How is that constitutionally possible? Really?

I just moved here to AZ 5 mos ago & this place gets scarier by the day!

[blue bird]

With all due respect, we all already know that the boy "admitted to shooting them" the day after the murders. It was on videotape!


I know that - my point was that supposedly he also told that to his family members after the interrogation. Not just to the police.

[blue bird]

If the case goes forth in juvenile court, it will not be a jury trial.

The defense has given the State 15 days (from Nov 19Th) to decide if it wants to try to have the boy tried as an adult.


:rolleyes:


So juvenile's aren't afford the right to have a jury trial at all in AZ?

[Crispy]

How is that constitutionally possible? Really?

I just moved here to AZ 5 mos ago & this place gets scarier by the day!

I believe when you are tried as a juvenile, you don't automatically get jury trial. You have to request it. We should be getting transcripts from that preadjudication hearing soon.

[Justice_Dawg]

Question. If there is not going to be a jury that means that the Judge will decide. Does that mean that they will argue the case the same way as they would if the jury were there or does the judge go on paperwork alone? If they are not going to be allowed to argue this case, our hard work breaking down all the evidence is pointless.

Never pointless.
They have to argue it to a judge. (Most likely not the one sitting there now) ie: That is why every place you see the judges name it says "Pro Tem" after it.
:seeya:

[Justice_Dawg]

Here is how I understand it based on some material that I read. They have to figure out if they want to keep it in juvenile or throw it up to the higher court and try him as an adult. Then they have to figure out if he is competent to stand trial. If he is not, they can keep him in jail until he is like 18 or until he is older and can understand. Then they can try him in adult court. Is that right? I'm confused.:confused:

If they find he is not competent to stand trial, he will go to children's psychiatric hospital until deemed competent to stand trial.

That is when OTHER's step in.

[blue bird]

Hi, Blue Bird. So you are saying that they brainwashed him in that interrogation to make him believe he did this even if he did not. This is what happened to Michael Crowe I just saw the tape yesterday that Justice Dawg posted. The whole video of that confession was horrendous.

Something like that. I mean, this boy was likely traumatized then they interrogate him the way they did. He's probably confused at this point as to what his real memories are. Exactly like the Crowe case. I haven't seen the documentary on in in a while but I remember the boy saying that at some point he felt like he must have done it since they were so convinced that he did.

[Crispy]

The way I read it is that if he is found incompetent at juvenile level, they have 240 days to return the juvenile to a competent level. If that can't be reached within 240 days then they dismiss the charges with prejudice. After that then they could go forth with civil procedures if necessary.

[blue bird]

Sorry Blue Bird...I see what you are saying now.


No problem! From what she told me the family is convinced he did it because he "admitted" it to them.

[blue bird]

I have such disdain for the way the Law operates in AZ that I really hope that the forensics prove that in no way did this little boy do this. I really want to see them scramble!

[Justice_Dawg]

Wow, I'm really heartbroken. It doesn't sound like this kid stands a snowballs chance in he!! right now with all of these things working against him. Don't you wish you could just turn the clock back and fly down to Arizona and stop this kid from getting off the school bus that day?

Yes, and I agree with you and others that the child should have NEVER been left alone. Guns or NO Guns. 8yrs. is to young to be left alone for 2 hours!! That seems like forever to a child.

[Justice_Dawg]

I know that - my point was that supposedly he also told that to his family members after the interrogation. Not just to the police.


Then why did his attorney say on TV that he didn't do it? :confused:

[Justice_Dawg]

Somehow I doubt that the State is going to let this go that easily. If the Judge decides to dismiss the First Count with that provision that they can reopen the case or try him again, he is literally screwed. You can't be tried for the same crime twice in a capital murder case, right? So if they have that first count "laying in wait" they will end up going after him with that when he is less likely to be able to recall all of this stuff and unless he has God as an attorney, nobody will be able to help this kid at that point. That's at least how I see it. Something is telling me this boy doesn't stand a chance no matter what.

I believe in Karma and I believe that for the prosecutor, the chief of police they are going to pay dearly for doing this to this little boy. I can see the Judge not wanting to let this boy out because vigilante justice will take him out, but to refuse the boy access to his mother 24 hours a day if he needs her? Karma will end up biting him too. One of these days this is going to happen to one of their loved ones and then they will know.

ITA

Karma baby Karma

[blue bird]

Then why did his attorney say on TV that he didn't do it? :confused:

I believe and I'm sure his attorney believes he did not do it. This is just was the boy's great uncle told my friend. IF he did say this to his family, I'm sure it is due to the interrogation tactics convincing him he did it.

[Justice_Dawg]

I have such disdain for the way the Law operates in AZ that I really hope that the forensics prove that in no way did this little boy do this. I really want to see them scramble!

I don't think the forensics of the crime will fit the "confession"

At no time did the boy ever say anything like "and dad was coming at me so I shot him"

They were always already dead.

[PensiveOne]

No problem! From what she told me the family is convinced he did it because he "admitted" it to them.

Oh, I hope your friend is mistaken:( I wouldn't think they would let the family talk to him at all...but who knows. It could've been that he was so convinced after the interrogation that he did shoot them he told the family that. Sad, sad, sad...I can hardly stand it.

I did read on another post that a friend of the Grandmother said that she did not think he did it and he was a cute, sweet and funny little boy.

[emdragon]

I believe and I'm sure his attorney believes he did not do it. This is just was the boy's great uncle told my friend. IF he did say this to his family, I'm sure it is due to the interrogation tactics convincing him he did it.

I wonder if he told them he did it, or he shot them or if he just said it was his fault..

The family might not see a difference in those statements but others will. If he said it was his fault he may simply believe they are dead because of him not that he actually killed them himself.... Does that make sense?

[blue bird]

I don't think the forensics of the crime will fit the "confession"

At no time did the boy ever say anything like "and dad was coming at me so I shot him"

They were always already dead.

I agree! I just hope that the results are embarrassingly obvious that he couldn't have done it. Then I hope they get sued.

[blue bird]

I wonder if he told them he did it, or he shot them or if he just said it was his fault..

The family might not see a difference in those statements but others will. If he said it was his fault he may simply believe they are dead because of him not that he actually killed them himself.... Does that make sense?

That's what I'm thinking too or that the way he was interrogated made him doubt his own innocence.

[Justice_Dawg]

I wonder what Alvia (sp) said to the boy when she interviewed him alone.

I also wonder why they didn't put her on the stand at the detention hearing.

[incidentally]

First let me begin by saying that I think it is highly unlikely this boy committed this crime.

But friend at work knows the father's family and she said the dad's uncle told her that the day after the shooting, the little boy "admitted that he shot them.

IF he did tell this to his family, I think that after being interrogated the way he was, he probably doesn't know what the truth is anymore.

Also, what is up with all the guns in these people's possession?

I find the comment he supposedly told his family highly suspect. In other words, I ain't buying it.

I understand you are just passing on information you allegedly heard from "friend of the father's family" however I question, what kind of friend for the father's family would utter such a statement, if they're really a friend.

Regards,

Tally

[Justice_Dawg]

They break the gag. :flamemad:

Police: St. Johns boy kept 'writings about his intentions'
Reported by: Dan Wilson
Email: dwilson@abc15.com
Last Update: 5:00 pm

An Apache County search warrant obtained Wednesday shows that the St. Johns boy accused in the death of his father and another man living at his home kept a “ledger or communicated in the form of writings about his intentions.”

The news comes on the same day the boy was released for a two-day visit with his mother.

Judge Michael Roca agreed to allow the boy to leave juvenile detention from noon today until noon on Friday. The judge's decision came over the objection of prosecutors.

The boy faces two counts of murder in the November 5 deaths of his father, Vincent Romero, and Timothy Romans, who was renting a room in the family's home in St. Johns.

According to the search warrant, the 8-year-old kept a tally of his spankings on a piece of paper. He “told a CPS worker that when he reached one thousand spankings, that would be his limit.”

The document also quotes an interview with Vincent Romero’s wife, the boy’s step-mother. She told police that the boy was given a cell phone because the Romeros “were fearful that Eryn Bloomfield, (the boy’s) natural mother, may try to kidnap (the boy)."

Bloomfield had visitation rights to see her son and was in St. Johns from her home in Mississippi the weekend prior to the November 5 murders.

The grandmother of the boy told police that if any 8-year-old was capable of the crimes, the boy was.

According to the documents, St. Johns police Chief Roy Melnick said that Liz Romero, also known as Liz Castillo, shouted out angrily when she was told the boy would be arrested in the killings.

She yelled that she "knew this would happen. They were too hard on (the boy). I knew (the boy) did it."

She also said "if any 8-year-old boy is capable of doing this it's (the boy)."
http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story.aspx?content_id=f5279ad3-5830-4b5b-bc11-b71d79fb4911

[frances1]

I haven't kept up with every word of this case, but I'm rather surprised at the response from the posters on this board. Of course, no one wants to believe that an 8 year old child could do this, but, unfortunately, it does happen. Why is everyone so convinced he isn't guilty? Just saying LE questioned him without an attorney, talking about your 8 year old relatives, etc. aren't valid reasons. Saying an 8 year old doesn't understand death doesn't mean a lot to me, either. My religious teachings say that the 'age of reason' is around 6 to 7 years old. That means a child of this age should certainly know right from wrong, unless he is a psychopath.

[bkwits]

They break the gag. :flamemad:

Police: St. Johns boy kept 'writings about his intentions'
Reported by: Dan Wilson
Email: dwilson@abc15.com
Last Update: 5:00 pm

An Apache County search warrant obtained Wednesday shows that the St. Johns boy accused in the death of his father and another man living at his home kept a “ledger or communicated in the form of writings about his intentions.”

The news comes on the same day the boy was released for a two-day visit with his mother.

Judge Michael Roca agreed to allow the boy to leave juvenile detention from noon today until noon on Friday. The judge's decision came over the objection of prosecutors.

The boy faces two counts of murder in the November 5 deaths of his father, Vincent Romero, and Timothy Romans, who was renting a room in the family's home in St. Johns.

According to the search warrant, the 8-year-old kept a tally of his spankings on a piece of paper. He “told a CPS worker that when he reached one thousand spankings, that would be his limit.”

The document also quotes an interview with Vincent Romero’s wife, the boy’s step-mother. She told police that the boy was given a cell phone because the Romeros “were fearful that Eryn Bloomfield, (the boy’s) natural mother, may try to kidnap (the boy)."

Bloomfield had visitation rights to see her son and was in St. Johns from her home in Mississippi the weekend prior to the November 5 murders.

The grandmother of the boy told police that if any 8-year-old was capable of the crimes, the boy was.

According to the documents, St. Johns police Chief Roy Melnick said that Liz Romero, also known as Liz Castillo, shouted out angrily when she was told the boy would be arrested in the killings.

She yelled that she "knew this would happen. They were too hard on (the boy). I knew (the boy) did it."

She also said "if any 8-year-old boy is capable of doing this it's (the boy)."
http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story.aspx?content_id=f5279ad3-5830-4b5b-bc11-b71d79fb4911


So whar WERE his intentions? This stinks MO:flamemad:

[bkwits]

I haven't kept up with every word of this case, but I'm rather surprised at the response from the posters on this board. Of course, no one wants to believe that an 8 year old child could do this, but, unfortunately, it does happen. Why is everyone so convinced he isn't guilty? Just saying LE questioned him without an attorney, talking about your 8 year old relatives, etc. aren't valid reasons. Saying an 8 year old doesn't understand death doesn't mean a lot to me, either. My religious teachings say that the 'age of reason' is around 6 to 7 years old. That means a child of this age should certainly know right from wrong, unless he is a psychopath.

I don't know if he did it or not. I think it appears he was railroaded. What got a lot of people upset to begin with is that the DA indicated he wanted to try this 8 year old child as an adult. They questioned him and led him into a confession, IMO, without anyone present to stand by him. He has been thrown into solitary confinement. Whether he did it or not, he has been denied constitutional rights that are afforded adults, IMO.

That being said, there are also many unanswered questions about how he could have done it,

Guilty or innocent he has been denied his rights, IMO.

[PensiveOne]

I am stunned. There is a new document up, too addressing why the state was dropping the 1 charge. I haven't read it all, but it does say that they are offering a plea to handle this all in juvenile court.

[interested]

In AZ juvenile court, all juveniles are subject to an Adjudication Hearing, there is no jury.

http://supreme.state.az.us/jjsd/jolts/Glossary.htm#Other%20Sanctions

It's the equivalent of a trial for adults, but the lack of a jury is not an exception, it's the rule. If there were a jury, it would mean they were moving the case to adult court. I can't believe anyone really wants that or thinks it would be appropriate.

For those questioning why the shots weren't heard by neighbors, you really need to take a look at the picture of the home in this article. There are no close neighbors, at least not that I can see, a .22 simply is not that loud. In this type of area shooting prairie dogs would be common not the odd thing that would attract attention. JMO

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story.aspx?content_id=f5279ad3-5830-4b5b-bc11-b71d79fb4911

This is an aerial map of St Johns, if anyone knows the address, or at least the street you can zoom in to determine if there are any neighbors close by that should have heard the shots.

http://www.mapquest.com/maps?city=St+Johns&state=AZ#a/maps/l:::Saint+Johns:AZ::US:34.505798:-109.360298:city:Apache+County:1/m:hyb:11:34.505798:-109.360298:0:::::/io:0:::::f:EN:M:/e

[Justice_Dawg]

I am stunned. There is a new document up, too addressing why the state was dropping the 1 charge. I haven't read it all, but it does say that they are offering a plea to handle this all in juvenile court.

They know they can't charge an (abused) 8 yr old as an adult. If the poor kid was counting swats, he was abused...a lot.

I cannot believe the grandmother would say such things. Talk about "innocent until proven guilty", she GAVE LE more ammunition to arrest her grandson.

Plus if the grandmother knew abuse was going on, and did not rescue the boy, she should be in prison too. :cuss:

I have to add that I still don't think he did this. Not alone anyway. :shrug:

[incidentally]

They break the gag. :flamemad:

Police: St. Johns boy kept 'writings about his intentions'
Reported by: Dan Wilson
Email: dwilson@abc15.com
Last Update: 5:00 pm

An Apache County search warrant obtained Wednesday shows that the St. Johns boy accused in the death of his father and another man living at his home kept a “ledger or communicated in the form of writings about his intentions.”

The news comes on the same day the boy was released for a two-day visit with his mother.

Judge Michael Roca agreed to allow the boy to leave juvenile detention from noon today until noon on Friday. The judge's decision came over the objection of prosecutors.

The boy faces two counts of murder in the November 5 deaths of his father, Vincent Romero, and Timothy Romans, who was renting a room in the family's home in St. Johns.

According to the search warrant, the 8-year-old kept a tally of his spankings on a piece of paper. He “told a CPS worker that when he reached one thousand spankings, that would be his limit.”

The document also quotes an interview with Vincent Romero’s wife, the boy’s step-mother. She told police that the boy was given a cell phone because the Romeros “were fearful that Eryn Bloomfield, (the boy’s) natural mother, may try to kidnap (the boy)."

Bloomfield had visitation rights to see her son and was in St. Johns from her home in Mississippi the weekend prior to the November 5 murders.

The grandmother of the boy told police that if any 8-year-old was capable of the crimes, the boy was.

According to the documents, St. Johns police Chief Roy Melnick said that Liz Romero, also known as Liz Castillo, shouted out angrily when she was told the boy would be arrested in the killings.

She yelled that she "knew this would happen. They were too hard on (the boy). I knew (the boy) did it."

She also said "if any 8-year-old boy is capable of doing this it's (the boy)."
http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story.aspx?content_id=f5279ad3-5830-4b5b-bc11-b71d79fb4911

Wow. What happens when a gag order is broken?

I can, unfortunately, wrap my mind around a boy killing, I just can't wrap my mind around how he was able to get off so many rounds. It's hard to imagine a boy, this young, could murder two grown men in the manner it has been described.

[Justice_Dawg]

So whar WERE his intentions? This stinks MO:flamemad:

They fail to say. Maybe it does or doesn't match what happened. :shrug:

[PensiveOne]

Well, here is more about what the grandmother said. I don't know if this will work or not I haven't tried to put a link in before...

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/11/26/20081126stjohns-boy1126-ON.html

[Justice_Dawg]

Wow. What happens when a gag order is broken?

I can, unfortunately, wrap my mind around a boy killing, I just can't wrap my mind around how he was able to get off so many rounds. It's hard to imagine a boy, this young, could murder two grown men in the manner it has been described.

It was the release of a search warrant. It isn't on the filings site, so I don't know how it got out.

They are mocking the judge by letting it out today of all days. Almost like saying "see the judge let the KILLER go on holiday"

barf

[incidentally]

It was the release of a search warrant. It isn't on the filings site, so I don't know how it got out.

They are mocking the judge by letting it out today of all days. Almost like saying "see the judge let the KILLER go on holiday"

barf

"mocking the judge". I would have to agree with that unless the judge already has his mind made up and will "overlook" breaking the gag order.

[PensiveOne]

They know they can't charge an (abused) 8 yr old as an adult. If the poor kid was counting swats, he was abused...a lot.

I cannot believe the grandmother would say such things. Talk about "innocent until proven guilty", she GAVE LE more ammunition to arrest her grandson.

Plus if the grandmother knew abuse was going on, and did not rescue the boy, she should be in prison too. :cuss:

I have to add that I still don't think he did this. Not alone anyway. :shrug:

Justice, ITA. I wish his mother would have kidnapped him before all of this happened.

[bkwits]

It was the release of a search warrant. It isn't on the filings site, so I don't know how it got out.

They are mocking the judge by letting it out today of all days. Almost like saying "see the judge let the KILLER go on holiday"

barf

Here's another news report.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,458204,00.html

I also read that they released the tape of the 911 call.

Have you seen that?

[JD1974]

I agree - that step mom has no business layng a hand on that child!
And I'm sorry to keep whining about this - but the police were called to that filthy household more than once - I haven't read back thru all the threads so I don't know if we know why. We do know this was not just a nice normal household the child was living in.


Finally someone says what I have been thinking! 3 adults in that house and it is disgustingly filthy...sorry excuse for adults to let their house get that way. I just have this feeling that someone very bad is going to come out if this boy goes to trial IMO THAT is why the step-mom is hiding out, something ugly was going on there.

[JD1974]

Tim was shot 6 times outside. ;)

This is what I have a hard time understanding...Tim was shot outside...have to reload after the first shot, why after the first shot didn't he run for cover somewhere?

[secrets]

Oh, but he runs for cover, TO THE HOUSE. At least that is what has been said from the beginning.


This is what I have a hard time understanding...Tim was shot outside...have to reload after the first shot, why after the first shot didn't he run for cover somewhere?

[JD1974]

Oh, but he runs for cover, TO THE HOUSE. At least that is what has been said from the beginning.



The only problem with that is the kid was IN THE HOUSE.

[secrets]

Can we be sure of anything really?
The boy first said he came and found them shot already. Than we are told by the LE the child was in the house waiting for them. I believe the confession is false. I can be wrong. But so far the story does not fit IMO.

[JD1974]

Can we be sure of anything really?
The boy first said he came and found them shot already. Than we are told by the LE the child was in the house waiting for them. I believe the confession is false. I can be wrong. But so far the story does not fit IMO.



I agree, that's why it is so confusing. I am wondering why Tim didn't try to take cover after hearing and or being shot. If he was running to the house he was running in the direction of the shots? That makes no sense whatsoever.

[LindaNJ1216]

They know they can't charge an (abused) 8 yr old as an adult. If the poor kid was counting swats, he was abused...a lot.

I cannot believe the grandmother would say such things. Talk about "innocent until proven guilty", she GAVE LE more ammunition to arrest her grandson.

Plus if the grandmother knew abuse was going on, and did not rescue the boy, she should be in prison too. :cuss:

I have to add that I still don't think he did this. Not alone anyway. :shrug:

IMO The kid is guilty as heck and he LIED about the 1000 swats. The kid is a MURDERING LIAR
HELLO???????????

[secrets]

Don't you think your language is too strong and inappropriate?
You have some issues.

IMO The kid is guilty as heck and he LIED about the 1000 swats. The kid is a MURDERING LIAR
HELLO???????????

[emdragon]

IMO The kid is guilty as heck and he LIED about the 1000 swats. The kid is a MURDERING LIAR
HELLO???????????

Did I miss the trial where he was proven guilty?

[LindaNJ1216]

Don't you think your language is too strong and inappropriate?
You have some issues.

No, I don't


i have issues because I don't share your opinion? :no:
I think he did it, I think he meant to do it, and I don't believe he has any remorse.

[LindaNJ1216]

WHOA! Tell us how you really feel? Last I checked, this is America, innocent until proven guilty, but hey, y'all have a nice day! :seeya:

Innocent until proven guilty is for the court room, look around. Your're not in one. This is a message board where I am just as entitled as you are to my opinions.

Where was your issue with the other posters here that have called the VICTIMS child abusers and drug addicts? I've seen law enforcement accused of being incompetant and politically motivated.

Thank you, you have a lovely day as well.

[LindaNJ1216]

Linda, you seem like you are so full of anger and hatred. Wow!

:eek:

Why?:confused: because I am as passionate about my opinion as you are yours?

Just because I have no great love or need to defend or excuse murders reguardless of their age....... doesn't make me angry or full of hatred. But I do so love the way you attacked me personally. :seeya: Have a great day!

[book]

Linda:

Not one person attacked you. IMO you attacked though.

To claim an eight year old is the next Charles Manson is extreme in my opinion.

The [I]adults in this child's life let him down. It's the adults that will continue to abuse this child. Through the system.

[LindaNJ1216]

I am passionate about my convictions but I hope that I don't come off sounding like you. For the record, I don't know what "attacked me personally" means. Is that when you make an observation about somebody and say it? :shrug: In any event, I hope that I don't come off sounding hateful and full of rage. It's just not my style.

Then try staying on topic and keep your opinions of me off the board

[book]

I'm being strongly advised not to reply to your posts, either, so. Sorry. Have a good one.

That would be wise.:rose: