My perspective on Ray's Disappearance

[Cinderella]

This is the way that I view what might or very well could have happened to Ray.

First of all, none of us humans are perfect.

Ray was a very handsome man who happened to be DA in Centre County.
Ray loved women, but he didn't like to just stay with one.

He was probably enticed by a lot of women and probably could have had his choice in women, but staying with one woman all of his life probably didn't satisfy Ray. (I would like to add my own comment that although I didn't know the relationship that Ray had with Barbara, I know that she must have deeply cared about him. She probably would have done most anything to please him, but he was not a one woman man.)

If you have ever noticed, men appear to have a harder time living alone than woman. So a man is usually living with a woman.

After two failed marriages, he probably knew that married life was not for him for life.

I wonder if PF started noticing changes in RG before 2005. People around the area knew that Ray liked women. I am sure that PF knew, but she might have thought in her heart that this time it would last. I am wondering that she noticed that he might be seeing someone else so she moved in her job, to be closer to Ray and find out maybe who he was seeing. Or what was happening in his life that was making him seem to change. ( I don't think that when there is a lot of time to work together it makes a difference, but with retirement getting close, I am sure that Ray was getting a little nervous about retiring and having PF retire with him. What would happen if she retired and something happened to the relationship?) I feel that Ray was depressed because he felt stuck and didn't want to hurt PF or others and the closer the retirement got, the more nervous he became.
In this time, I don't think that Ray was faithful to PF. I don't think that he was faithful to any of his wifes. Some men are like that. After all he wasn't married to her, but he did live with her. I don't think that Ray wanted to marry PF and that is why he bought the house and a car for her. If someone is in love, a wedding ring or engagement ring is put on someone's finger. If they both were planning on retiring at the end of 2006, then Christmas of 2005 would have been an ideal time to make plans for an engagement or wedding. I wonder if Ray and PF were having some spats over the changes.

I think that PF knew that Ray was seeing someone. I don't think that Ray stayed Thursday night with PF. I think that that is where the story gets all messed up by trying to protect images. I do believe that Ray called PF and told her where he was headed, just to let her know. Or maybe stated where he was headed thinking that she would not suspect anything. From what I have heard, when a man fools around, it means nothing. From what I understand, most men do fool around and a lot of women also do. I think that Ray was seeing a woman. I think that he planned on meeting her in Lewisburg because it was out of the way of Bellefonte and people might not readily notice who he was. Also with her. I think that they met and maybe Ray had a motel or hotel room already in his name. Maybe he didn't spend several days with PF. The statement that we will wait as long as it takes could fit in this plan because he might have said that he wanted to think things over. I believe that the woman may have wanted to be with him or set him up for someone. At any rate, the construction worker leaned into the car. I think that it was a boyfriend, husband or just someone wanting to get Ray. I kind of think that it was a set up due to the almost perfect setting. The woman might have known that something was going to happen or maybe not. I think that Ray was moving his car in the parking lot because she might have been late or he didn't think that she knew what vehicle he would have been in. Or the situation was manipulated by friends of Ray to make it look like Ray was in Lewisburg, because they didn't want the real truth to be known of what did happen to Ray. People can say they saw anything. If you are a friend of someone you can get people to say things that are not true. It could have been to get everyone's eyes on Lewisburg and not where it happened. After all the news media was there.

I think that the man that met up with Ray while he was with the woman drove Ray in the car and took him someplace else. Possible a camp or some quiet place. Who knows this person could have been blackmailing Ray for a while.

We have a person who supposedly made statements about Ray and was angry at Ray. He made statements that came true. I can't believe that all the statements that I heard second hand were exactly things that came true. So the person kills himself. How do you convict a dead man, you can't. What good would it be to pursue the case, if you thought that this man did it. Even if you thought the body was in cement. How do you get a person out from under cement. What is all of this news going to do to the public, family's? Maybe if knowing what happened and nothing could be done, it might be better to let well enough alone.

To me the police acted like they didn't want to hear anything about Ray unless you had a body. I am not so convinced that they didn't find his body, or maybe not.

I believe the truth was know about Ray at least at the second town meeting. Remember they didn't give Ray too long to show up before the grief session. I think that by the second town meeting that family knew what happened to Ray. Actually if you look at the pictures of the meetings closely, in the first picture, you can see Lara wearing a necklace, then in the second meeting, she had on a different necklace. If my mother hadn't died recently, I wouldn't think anything of it. I don't think that anyone took notice, but Lara was wearing a necklace that holds cremation remains. When people are cremated, many people purchase those necklaces to keep someone close to their heart. I know that Lara could say they were her dogs, or relatives, but I believe that they were Ray's ashes. I believe that the family and friend of Ray didn't want the citizens to know what really happened to Ray because of the great job he did in office and also to protect PF.

I have thought long and hard. This is my conclusion. Knowing the truth if he is deceased would be good. I don't know if doing anything else would be helpful.

I probably left out a lot of things that I wanted to say. I think that this sums up what I think. These are my own opinions and thoughts and no one elses. I think that if you look at the case through this perspective, that it will all fall into place.

I know that I probably ruffled some feathers, but this makes the most sense to me.

I must say that Ray was a damn great DA, who I miss very much and didn't even know him. I wish that I would have attended some of his trials. He fought for the Citizens of Centre County. :rose:

Please excuse any typos.

Just my opinion, My opinion only.

[J. J. in Phila]

I think this a subject that not really been explored and should be.

I will say this in opposition. It would be difficult for RFG to hide a relationship from PEF, but not impossible. A brief fling, a singular encounter, irregular encounters would be easier to hide.

Some of the arguments in favor of it is that no one seems to be killing off law enforcement officials in Central Pennsylvania.

[Chump#7]

She's saying that the murderer, in this scenario BJL, was already dead shortly after Ray disappeared. Therefore, he was unable to be punished for his crime. And by letting the details out to the public as to how this went down would only serve to tarnish Ray's image. So the decision was made to let that one go, provide alibi's consistent with the "timeline", and move on.

That about right Cindy?

The BJL angle was another one pushed aside quickly. Rehash anyone? I'm game. If nothing else it was a fascinating read - would have made a great movie.

[Cinderella]

BJL was out for a kill. He made statements that he was going to kill his boss. He was then fired and worked for someone else. I can't prove that BJL killed RG but I think that the family know the truth. All it would bring out would be a can of worms and you can't convict a dead man. I still wonder about the supposed note. Did he leave one and someone get rid of it? Only the people first on the scene would know. I think that the police know this from the beginning. I don't think that they expected the kind of persistence of citizens. If I had to make a bet, I bet that RG was creamated at Wetzler's Funeral Home in Bellefonte. Then Lara got the necklace with some of his ashes in it. I think that if BJL would not have committed suicide then he would be in jail with probably someone very close to him. Even if BJL's SO just met with RG, it could have happened. You still can't convict a dead person

Just my Thoughts.

[Cinderella]

Lewisburg,

I wonder if RG ever went there that day. It is far better to set up a place away from the real crime scene so that detectives can search and not have anyone focusing on them. I think that it was set up that way to keep people from knowing the real truth. Was BJL getting heat from LE so much that he knew that he was caught and it was only a matter of time? I think that is probably it. If the truth be known BJL probably did say those things to people but mouths are shut.

When I saw the enlarged picture of Lara wearing the necklace at the 2nd press conference and the saddened looks I knew that he was dead and they found him and she was wearing the ashes.

Those are only my opinion, but the necklace gave it away. I am sure most people did not know the significance of what she had around her neck.

[Cloudbuster]

You know Im trying to keep a open mind Cind so I think anythings possible. A man kills himself within the same weekend, if he did that is. Hmmm has ties to RG thru court. A woman visited by the now deceased at about 2 am if I recall right. A woman that had the deceased thru the court, accusing of a possible murder attempt on her. No one would show up at her house that hour and for what? A friendly kiss? I think not. If RG was seen last on saturdayish then is it possible BJL was going to now confront the other party on what he may have seen. You figure Ray was seen saturday possibly. Then saturday night leading to 2 am considered sunday, then I think it was a confrontation at the wife's house. Seemed BJL might have felt very hurt by the time of a possible confrontation with her. Question is why was he so upset to show up at her house? What had him so upset that it couldn't be a phone call to her at a reasonable time? He must have felt something SO horrible to even show up there at all given he knew he would most likely be arrested. It's one of those dot connectors.

[Cloudbuster]

It just dawned on me what if BJL was kicked out of his home that night after a possible argument with dad? Seems like something going on that night between the trio.

[puzzled]

BJL had recently discovered that his father was sleeping with BJL's wife TL. He was very upset. Also JL wanted BJL to lie about items that were taken out of the house before the fire. JL wanted BJL to sign a paper stating that they were lost in the fire. BJL would not sign it. BJL told his father that he was gonna go to Ray and tell Ray everything. He told his father that Ray was gonna put him in jail again. To make matters worse some guy named VM who is related to TL some how thought that Ray had slept with his girlfriend. The guy who I originally was told had heard BJL saying those things was a guy named Potsy who worked as a driver for RW Bird milk company. He later told the police supposedly that he had only seen BJL in passing that night and that he had not heard him saying anything about Ray. However the person that I know was insistent that Potsy had told his brother repeatedly that BJL had said all these things about Ray that night. It is hard to say who is telling the truth and who is maybe afraid to tell the truth. Keep in mind that BJL's family does not believe he killed himself. He was turning over a new leaf. He was getting a divorce and trying to move on. It could be that BJL made an appt to meet with Ray and that TL and JL and or VM intercepted Ray and kidnapped him. I believe wholeheartedly that Ray was killed that day. I believe that these supposed sightings of Ray after April 15th are false.

[J. J. in Phila]

I think there are a couple of problems with the BJL theory.

1. There really is no motive. The one recent brush with the law and RFG was favorable to BJL, to the point that RFG defended his "weak" response in the press. (It wasn't weak and reasonable.)

2. BJL was accounted for at the time.

3. How the heck could BJL know where RFG would be.

4. From everything I've heard about BJL, I would not describe him as a "rocket scientist." If this was a murder, it was a brilliant murderer. "Brilliant" was not a word I'd use to describe BJL.

LW, has constantly raised the suicide comments in the press. We know where that came from, TG and GC. It's not unusual they'd jump to that conclusion, considering the circumstances.

[puzzled]

I think you are missing the point JJ. First of all I do not think BJL killed Ray. I think BJL's father JL may have possibly killed Ray. Also keep in mind that JL is the one that gave BJL an alibi after BJL had died. The police asked JL about BJL's where abouts. The motive for JL would be that he knew that if his son told Ray what he had been up to with the arsons and stuff that Ray would send him back to jail. So you have BJL telling his father I am gonna tell Ray what you have done. That right there would be a huge motive for JL to get rid of Ray. Did you ever wonder if maybe Ray did meet with BJL and BJL told him about all the crimes his father had committed? What if Ray met with BJL on thursday and then told his Dad that he had spilled the beans to Ray? What if TL then set Ray up so that JL and VM could intervene and kill him? BJL was really angry at his father. JL did not want to go back to prison. TL was accusing BJL of shooting her when in fact he did not shoot her. So she is a bonafide liar. God only knows what she may have told Ray in order to set him up. You refuse to seriously delve into this possibility for some reason. But keep one thing:patriot: in mind JJ if you had the answers to this case you would not be here three and half years later. So therefore if they did kill Ray and BJL knew or suspected it then maybe that is why they then killed BJL ...dead men can not speak.

[puzzled]

I have always thought it was a little more than coincidence that Ray goes missing and then BJl is dead just hours later. In addition how in the hell could the police say in that article on Sunday morning that BJL had committed suicide and that their is no connection to Ray's disappearance. I could they possibly have proven that beyond a shadow of a doubt? And why did they never check JL's where abouts? Could be because they did not know what had gone on behind the scenes? Could be because they are lazy, stupid, incompetent, unmotivated, gullible. If you ask me the likely killers of Ray are JL and VM. The likely killer of BJL is TL. Why do you refuse to look very carefully at this possibility JJ? Do you already know exactly what did happen to Ray and BJL? Do you not realize that there could be massive corruption with the law "enforcement" in these areas? JL said oh BJL was with me. Okay but the questions should have been well where were you?

[Chump#7]

puzzled,

Who is "VM"? I can't remember if I ever knew at all.

And are the threads still available that contained posts from BJL's aunt, the alphabet soup scenarios, etc.? TIA.

[Serendipitous1]

puzzled,

Who is "VM"? I can't remember if I ever knew at all.

And are the threads still available that contained posts from BJL's aunt, the alphabet soup scenarios, etc.? TIA.Ah...'kpenley89' and 'tiredoftheguff'...where are they now...with their highly speculative conjecture and boorish, personal accusations/innuendoes. Living on through Cinderella, I suspect.

The initial post in this thread is basically a repeat from nearly 2-1/2 years ago...but with cremation ash, necklace lockets added for interest. And nearly a year before that I was informed (by someone who should know) that BJL apparently did make the boast...though after RG's disappearance was made public...and that the PSP did in fact investigate BJL and found no connection. But JCL...now there is a character, and a question LE has not answered.

[Cloudbuster]

Is it possible JL and VM intercepted RG while on route 192? If I remember correctly VM lives on 192? Then could JL drive the mini to Lewisburg? He moves it 7ral times to position it how he wanted it to look? Then JL needs picked up. Could VM look like the construction worker that leaned in the car? He drives JL back to his house and they dispose? JL then goes home and tells BJL what he did and BJL gets angry and later that night 2 am confronts TL that night about her brother or half brother?

Just a theory.

[Cloudbuster]

What if RG was going to meet with BJL? Just to get even with his dad he tells JL what he is about to do? That also explains why BL didn't sign those insurance papers? JL now knows about the meeting. He follows RG and intercepts him close to VM's house. Then JL preceeds to take the mini to Lewisburg positions it 7ral times then maybe BJL now see's its not RG as he leans in the window. They get into a argument BJL leaves and VM or TL picks JL up. Later that night 2 am BL goes to TL's house to tell her he is not signing the insurance papers.

Just another theory.

[Cloudbuster]

I have one more possible theories. What if TL set up a meeting at her brothers VM? She wants to discuss the case she had against BJL. Then it also makes sense why RG told PF he was on 192. He didn't tell her it was a pleasure drive or work related drive. Okay he meets TL at VM"s house but its a set up and JL is there. I gotta say what a coindence that her brother or half brother lives on that road. One of Ray's friends had stated that RG didn't take that road to Lewisburg but that he uses 45 instead. Its even shorter. To me RG knew where he was going and why. It also explains why he told PF he was taking half the day off. See if he only had to drive to VM's he had plenty of time to get the other half of day in at work.

[sherrijean981]

Is it possible JL and VM intercepted RG while on route 192? If I remember correctly VM lives on 192? Then could JL drive the mini to Lewisburg? He moves it 7ral times to position it how he wanted it to look? Then JL needs picked up. Could VM look like the construction worker that leaned in the car? He drives JL back to his house and they dispose? JL then goes home and tells BJL what he did and BJL gets angry and later that night 2 am confronts TL that night about her brother or half brother?

Just a theory.


No, VM lives off Rt 144, on Green's Valley Rd.

I wonder why BJL and JL didn't just have a shoot out with each other and leave RG out of it? RG was an innocent bystander to the evil and criminal ways of the Leathers family. And if TL is the type of person to sleep with father of husband can any of you seriously think RG would have a relationship with her? I don't think so!

[sherrijean981]

I have one more possible theories. What if TL set up a meeting at her brothers VM? She wants to discuss the case she had against BJL. Then it also makes sense why RG told PF he was on 192. He didn't tell her it was a pleasure drive or work related drive. Okay he meets TL at VM"s house but its a set up and JL is there. I gotta say what a coindence that her brother or half brother lives on that road. One of Ray's friends had stated that RG didn't take that road to Lewisburg but that he uses 45 instead. Its even shorter. To me RG knew where he was going and why. It also explains why he told PF he was taking half the day off. See if he only had to drive to VM's he had plenty of time to get the other half of day in at work.


It sounds more like your case should be against VM and TL in the killing of BJL.

I don't remember the names anymore of the woman who heard BJL say about his getting rid of RG. She worked in the bar BJL was at, and I was told my the woman who owned the used car lot on Rt 144 just outside of Bellefonte. She lives in front of or beside that woman.

Shortly after I had been given all that info I had passed it on to TG with her address, names, etc. I don't know what he did with the info or if it was passed on to LE.

I believe that was all removed from the forum a long time ago.

[sherrijean981]

BJL was out for a kill. He made statements that he was going to kill his boss. He was then fired and worked for someone else. I can't prove that BJL killed RG but I think that the family know the truth. All it would bring out would be a can of worms and you can't convict a dead man. I still wonder about the supposed note. Did he leave one and someone get rid of it? Only the people first on the scene would know. I think that the police know this from the beginning. I don't think that they expected the kind of persistence of citizens. If I had to make a bet, I bet that RG was creamated at Wetzler's Funeral Home in Bellefonte. Then Lara got the necklace with some of his ashes in it. I think that if BJL would not have committed suicide then he would be in jail with probably someone very close to him. Even if BJL's SO just met with RG, it could have happened. You still can't convict a dead person

Just my Thoughts.


Now you have a conspiracy with the funeral home owners and whoever brought RG's body to be cremated. Are you saying the Leathers family or LE would have sent RG's body there?

Or maybe the funeral home RG turned in for disposing of bodily fluids from funerals illegally?

[puzzled]

JL knew that BJL was not going to sign the papers. BJL had asked his mother if he should sign them and she said no. BJL told his father that he was going to meet with Ray and tell him everything. So JL knew that. I am not certain about one thing...I do not know if VM is TL's half brother or if he BJL's baby Momma's half /step brother. I never said that Ray had a relationship with TL. What I believe I was told was that VM thought that Ray had slept with his girlfriend at one time. I do not know if it is true but that is what I was told. Whether it happened or not VM believed that it did.
Thanks for referring to me as a boorish person S1. What was that you said about James Renner? That he is a man kisser....would that be a fact or an innuendo?:punch:

[Serendipitous1]

<Snip>
Thanks for referring to me as a boorish person S1. What was that you said about James Renner? That he is a man kisser....would that be a fact or an innuendo?:punch:Twas not you, my dear...but rather the glass-slippered one. And the other thing is a fact...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYt6RklOFQk

[puzzled]

That was gross! Nasty....yucko!

[J. J. in Phila]

I think you are missing the point JJ. First of all I do not think BJL killed Ray. I think BJL's father JL may have possibly killed Ray. Also keep in mind that JL is the one that gave BJL an alibi after BJL had died. The police asked JL about BJL's where abouts. The motive for JL would be that he knew that if his son told Ray what he had been up to with the arsons and stuff that Ray would send him back to jail. So you have BJL telling his father I am gonna tell Ray what you have done. That right there would be a huge motive for JL to get rid of Ray. Did you ever wonder if maybe Ray did meet with BJL and BJL told him about all the crimes his father had committed? What if Ray met with BJL on thursday and then told his Dad that he had spilled the beans to Ray? What if TL then set Ray up so that JL and VM could intervene and kill him? BJL was really angry at his father. JL did not want to go back to prison. TL was accusing BJL of shooting her when in fact he did not shoot her. So she is a bonafide liar. God only knows what she may have told Ray in order to set him up. You refuse to seriously delve into this possibility for some reason. But keep one thing:patriot: in mind JJ if you had the answers to this case you would not be here three and half years later. So therefore if they did kill Ray and BJL knew or suspected it then maybe that is why they then killed BJL ...dead men can not speak.

No, JL wouldn't have had a motive to kill RFG. He could have had a motive to kill his son, but not to kill RFG. BJL, in your scenario, could have spoken to any LE officer.

Also, it's very unlikely that RFG would have gone into the field, as it where, at all, and wouldn't have tried to have a clandestine meeting.

[sherrijean981]

JL knew that BJL was not going to sign the papers. BJL had asked his mother if he should sign them and she said no. BJL told his father that he was going to meet with Ray and tell him everything. So JL knew that. I am not certain about one thing...I do not know if VM is TL's half brother or if he BJL's baby Momma's half /step brother. I never said that Ray had a relationship with TL. What I believe I was told was that VM thought that Ray had slept with his girlfriend at one time. I do not know if it is true but that is what I was told. Whether it happened or not VM believed that it did.
Thanks for referring to me as a boorish person S1. What was that you said about James Renner? That he is a man kisser....would that be a fact or an innuendo?:punch:

Who is James Renner? That is the second time you have mentioned that name and still don't know who it is?

[Cinderella]

CINDERELLA Snipped for length.
Ray had a motel or hotel room already in his name. Maybe he didn't spend several days with PF. The statement that we will wait as long as it takes could fit in this plan because he might have said that he wanted to think things over. I believe that the woman may have wanted to be with him or set him up for someone. At any rate, the construction worker leaned into the car. I think that it was a boyfriend, husband or just someone wanting to get Ray. I kind of think that it was a set up due to the almost perfect setting. The woman might have known that something was going to happen or maybe not. I think that Ray was moving his car in the parking lot because she might have been late or he didn't think that she knew what vehicle he would have been in. Or the situation was manipulated by friends of Ray to make it look like Ray was in Lewisburg, because they didn't want the real truth to be known of what did happen to Ray. People can say they saw anything. If you are a friend of someone you can get people to say things that are not true. It could have been to get everyone's eyes on Lewisburg and not where it happened. After all the news media was there.

I think that the man that met up with Ray while he was with the woman drove Ray in the car and took him someplace else. Possible a camp or some quiet place. Who knows this person could have been blackmailing Ray for a while.

We have a person who supposedly made statements about Ray and was angry at Ray. He made statements that came true. I can't believe that all the statements that I heard second hand were exactly things that came true. So the person kills himself. How do you convict a dead man, you can't. What good would it be to pursue the case, if you thought that this man did it. Even if you thought the body was in cement. How do you get a person out from under cement. What is all of this news going to do to the public, family's? Maybe if knowing what happened and nothing could be done, it might be better to let well enough alone.

To me the police acted like they didn't want to hear anything about Ray unless you had a body. I am not so convinced that they didn't find his body, or maybe not.

I believe the truth was know about Ray at least at the second town meeting. Remember they didn't give Ray too long to show up before the grief session. I think that by the second town meeting that family knew what happened to Ray. Actually if you look at the pictures of the meetings closely, in the first picture, you can see Lara wearing a necklace, then in the second meeting, she had on a different necklace. If my mother hadn't died recently, I wouldn't think anything of it. I don't think that anyone took notice, but Lara was wearing a necklace that holds cremation remains. When people are cremated, many people purchase those necklaces to keep someone close to their heart. I know that Lara could say they were her dogs, or relatives, but I believe that they were Ray's ashes. I believe that the family and friend of Ray didn't want the citizens to know what really happened to Ray because of the great job he did in office and also to protect PF.

I have thought long and hard. This is my conclusion. Knowing the truth if he is deceased would be good. I don't know if doing anything else would be helpful.

I probably left out a lot of things that I wanted to say. I think that this sums up what I think. These are my own opinions and thoughts and no one elses. I think that if you look at the case through this perspective, that it will all fall into place.

I know that I probably ruffled some feathers, but this makes the most sense to me.

I must say that Ray was a damn great DA, who I miss very much and didn't even know him. I wish that I would have attended some of his trials. He fought for the Citizens of Centre County. :rose:

Please excuse any typos.

Just my opinion, My opinion only.

So you're saying this is a "no snitch" thing? Better to protect feelings and reputations than find the killer and prosecute him/her?[/QUOTE]

What I am saying is that I think that this may have opened a can or worms for both the families. Also the person that did this maybe have committed suicide later. You can't convict a dead man. Although I am not say that he did it. It could have been a high official's wife that was meeting Ray.

[J. J. in Phila]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Renner

[Cinderella]

She's saying that the murderer, in this scenario BJL, was already dead shortly after Ray disappeared. Therefore, he was unable to be punished for his crime. And by letting the details out to the public as to how this went down would only serve to tarnish Ray's image. So the decision was made to let that one go, provide alibi's consistent with the "timeline", and move on.

That about right Cindy?

The BJL angle was another one pushed aside quickly. Rehash anyone? I'm game. If nothing else it was a fascinating read - would have made a great movie.

Chump #7, it coud have very well have been the case.

[Cinderella]

No, JL wouldn't have had a motive to kill RFG. He could have had a motive to kill his son, but not to kill RFG. BJL, in your scenario, could have spoken to any LE officer.

Also, it's very unlikely that RFG would have gone into the field, as it where, at all, and wouldn't have tried to have a clandestine meeting.

J. J. JL did have motive to kill RG. RG put JL in jail for motesting family members. J. J. JL. hated Ray. J. L wanted compete control of BJL and didn't want Ray to interfere.

[Cinderella]

I think you are missing the point JJ. First of all I do not think BJL killed Ray. I think BJL's father JL may have possibly killed Ray. Also keep in mind that JL is the one that gave BJL an alibi after BJL had died. The police asked JL about BJL's where abouts. The motive for JL would be that he knew that if his son told Ray what he had been up to with the arsons and stuff that Ray would send him back to jail. So you have BJL telling his father I am gonna tell Ray what you have done. That right there would be a huge motive for JL to get rid of Ray. Did you ever wonder if maybe Ray did meet with BJL and BJL told him about all the crimes his father had committed? What if Ray met with BJL on thursday and then told his Dad that he had spilled the beans to Ray? What if TL then set Ray up so that JL and VM could intervene and kill him? BJL was really angry at his father. JL did not want to go back to prison. TL was accusing BJL of shooting her when in fact he did not shoot her. So she is a bonafide liar. God only knows what she may have told Ray in order to set him up. You refuse to seriously delve into this possibility for some reason. But keep one thing:patriot: in mind JJ if you had the answers to this case you would not be here three and half years later. So therefore if they did kill Ray and BJL knew or suspected it then maybe that is why they then killed BJL ...dead men can not speak.

I would love to know who gave BJL and JL their alibis.

[Cinderella]

Who is James Renner? That is the second time you have mentioned that name and still don't know who it is?

I would love to know when the papers were to be signed. The aunt said that BLJ's mother hadn't see him in a while before he died. So I would like to know when the conversation took place.

[Cinderella]

Placed in that context, there were a few very strange things early on.

First, RG is reported missing.
Second, little more than 24 hours later, BJL ends up dead in the parking lot where a woman who had him put in jail resides.
Third, the following day, the news reads 'suicide possible' for RG, but NO body?
Fourth, grief counciling is held immediately after RG doesn't show up for work.
Fifth, the necklace Cind mentions, on LG.
Sixth, IIRC, someone mentioned that BJL's ex, the mother of his daughter, family members of PF, also wore the same kind of necklace, hers with BJL's ashes in it?

I would like most of all to know the actual origin of the 'bragging' story. NO one just makes a confession to murder up on his way out, and it's a confession of murder not heard until after BJL is dead, making BJL quite the easy target since he can't defend himself. I still think somehow finding the source of that 'bragging' statement is key.

As a murder mystery movie, what does it play out as---- a family feud gone wrong? The biggest mystery I see is what was BJL doing at the house of a woman who had him put in jail, and was then involved with his father? Did BJL hear the news in the bar and immediately suspect? Was the 'bragging' confession made up to cover for someone else? Yet another full report I wish was released, but that one will likely never be seen.
The seventh very strange occurrence, the PSP-CIA get together to see if there is anything overlooked, and JL is arrested.

Was it two separate stories five miles apart playing out at the same time? Or is it one story, with the truth being hidden?
JMO

LogicWork, Do you have a blown up picture that Lara was wearing? My sister bought hers from Wetzler Funeral Home in Bellefonte.

[Cinderella]

Now you have a conspiracy with the funeral home owners and whoever brought RG's body to be cremated. Are you saying the Leathers family or LE would have sent RG's body there?

Or maybe the funeral home RG turned in for disposing of bodily fluids from funerals illegally?


I am saying that it is a possibility. Lara was wearing the necklace that they sell. The funeral home will put the ashes in. Wetzlers has a creamatory. Wetzlers would keep quiet. It is one of the best Funereal Homes in Bellefone. I don't know if there are other. Wetler's in Milesburg.

[Cinderella]

No, VM lives off Rt 144, on Green's Valley Rd.

I wonder why BJL and JL didn't just have a shoot out with each other and leave RG out of it? RG was an innocent bystander to the evil and criminal ways of the Leathers family. And if TL is the type of person to sleep with father of husband can any of you seriously think RG would have a relationship with her? I don't think so!

VM's dad lives on 192. Isn't Green's Valle Road off of 192? In my statement, I offered BJL as a killer. It could have been some else.

[Cinderella]

Now you have a conspiracy with the funeral home owners and whoever brought RG's body to be cremated. Are you saying the Leathers family or LE would have sent RG's body there?

Or maybe the funeral home RG turned in for disposing of bodily fluids from funerals illegally?


I am saying that Ray Gricar would most likely sent Rays both there.

BJL was creamated, but I don't know where.

[Cinderella]

Twas not you, my dear...but rather the glass-slippered one. And the other thing is a fact...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYt6RklOFQk


So I am boring S1. This site was almost dead and I got some people thinking. Did i say something that made you angry. Just count me one of your Pete Bosak's that you usually put down. If someone doesn't agree with you then they are wrong. Go have some more mushrooms.

[Cloudbuster]

Maybe we could solve this once and for all. Maybe by asking the family if a dog could be taken to the property? One that can find human remains. I know we can't ask to go on JL's property but maybe the mom would allow it on BL's property? :rose:

[sherrijean981]

VM's dad lives on 192. Isn't Green's Valle Road off of 192? In my statement, I offered BJL as a killer. It could have been some else.

Remember when we were discussing the VM connection before? Greens Valley Rd ended shortly after VM's address, with a fence now up so they can go no further with a car. There is a trail though that can be followed from that road to Blue Ball Rd and crossed over to go to Madisonburg. Blue Ball Rd was the connection to Rt 192 and Rt 64 near Mingoeville.

Also the trail from the VM's end of Greens Valley Rd does go to the quarry on Rt 64, just outside of Pleasant Gap.

[sherrijean981]

Maybe we could solve this once and for all. Maybe by asking the family if a dog could be taken to the property? One that can find human remains. I know we can't ask to go on JL's property but maybe the mom would allow it on BL's property? :rose:


You would think JL would allow that too, if he had nothing to hide.

[puzzled]

The mom told police a long time ago that they could go and search but the police refused to do so.

[Cloudbuster]

You would think JL would allow that too, if he had nothing to hide.


I don't think JL would allow it.

[Serendipitous1]

So I am boring S1. This site was almost dead and I got some people thinking. Did i say something that made you angry. Just count me one of your Pete Bosak's that you usually put down. If someone doesn't agree with you then they are wrong. Go have some more mushrooms.Well I know it is Friday, and all that...but here goes: Try to understand the difference between "highly speculative conjecture and 'boorish', personal accusations/innuendoes"...and 'boring' posters (look it up in your dictionary, if you must).

While there may be some probative value to the fact that RG once prosecuted a member or members of JL's family, and an apparent coincidence that BJL turned up dead a day after RG was reported missing, and a rumor that BJL boasted to others that RG would never be found...is that enough to churn out a "this is what I believe happened" scenario complete with named suspects? Or is that just a product of an overworked imagination...perhaps the stuff of bad mushrooms?

Sidebar: if I ever knew 'kpenley89' or 'tiredoftheguff' was reincarnated here, I had forgotten it long ago. But I repeat...your initial post in this thread is basically a rehash from nearly 2-1/2 years ago...with cremation ash, necklace lockets added for interest...and that nearly a year before that I was informed (by someone who should know) that BJL apparently did make the boast (though after RG's disappearance was made public) and that the PSP did in fact investigate BJL and found no connection. But JCL...now there is a character (we agree), and a question LE has not answered.

[Cinderella]

S1,

I didn't say that my post had to have BJL or JL involved. Yes, BJL's foretold a lot of what came true. This could be anyone that killed Ray. A man scorned over a woman. I think that it involved something that the family didn't want disclosed to the public.

I was shocked when I saw the necklace that holds creamations.

Written by a bore.

Actually talk about boring, for the last year, this has been boring.

[puzzled]

S1 I am not sure I follow why it makes a difference that Ray's dissappearance had been made public and then BJL supposedly boasted. If he did indeed boast which is something I have never been able to confirm then is that not a reason to delve deeper into this possiblity? I think that most of us look at it as though ...we want the truth of what really happened to Ray and are willing to discuss any and all possibilities. The cops really should look closer at JL. Do you think there is any chance that they ever will??? I do not hold grudges at all. Life is too short for that! Have A GREAT WEEKEND EVERYBODY!:cool:

[Serendipitous1]

S1 I am not sure I follow why it makes a difference that Ray's dissappearance had been made public and then BJL supposedly boasted. If he did indeed boast which is something I have never been able to confirm then is that not a reason to delve deeper into this possiblity? I think that most of us look at it as though ...we want the truth of what really happened to Ray and are willing to discuss any and all possibilities. The cops really should look closer at JL. Do you think there is any chance that they ever will??? I do not hold grudges at all. Life is too short for that! Have A GREAT WEEKEND EVERYBODY!:cool:I do not think it unworthy to pursue a BJL/JCL connection. But you have to come back with solid evidence (read proof) in order to connect either of them...or others. And that is what has been lacking. Have a great weekend yourself.

[Cloudbuster]

My belief has always been if RG was killed that he remains somewhere on private property. How can you get on private property? Legally you can't. That explains to me why he can't be found. So in this case they would need some type of reasonable questionable proof to go unto private property. Im still down to one theory. My second theory is more like being opened minded about a walk away. I believe my theory one, foul play. I go back thru both and I know it looks like a possible walk away but somewhere inside myself I don't believe that, and never felt that. I will admit though there is alot that points to walk away but yet there is alot that points foul play. :confused::read:

[Politigal]

My belief has always been if RG was killed that he remains somewhere on private property. How can you get on private property? Legally you can't. That explains to me why he can't be found. So in this case they would need some type of reasonable questionable proof to go unto private property. Im still down to one theory. My second theory is more like being opened minded about a walk away. I believe my theory one, foul play. I go back thru both and I know it looks like a possible walk away but somewhere inside myself I don't believe that, and never felt that. I will admit though there is alot that points to walk away but yet there is alot that points foul play. :confused::read:


I completely agree that Gricar is probably on private property. And IMO, he definitely met with foul play.

I watched a Court TV special last night that profiled missing persons cases...and 9 times out of 10, they determined that these missing people had been murdered and the significant other was responsible. These significant others cried, pleaded for the return of their partners, and some intimated their partners had probably left of their own accord (walked away,) accused them of having affairs, etc...and yet, they were found responsible for the deaths of those reported missing. And, police also checked out numerous reports of sightings of each of these missing persons....who in fact were dead.

They also discussed that when people do walk away, they generally have a very strong reason to do so, and that they *always* leave some sort of trail....some little detail. Gricar didn't have a reason to & didn't leave any trail. The trail we do have in Gricar's case...doesn't even point to Gricar......*No* fingerprints in his Mini Cooper....*No* witnesses seeing him leave his home or driving thru Bellefonte that morning...*No* witnesses seeing him take his dog out before he left....*Noone* even reported having possibly seen Gricar (even though it was on the news) -- until his car had been located at Lewisburg.

IMO, Luminol could still play a big part in solving Gricar's case....

[J. J. in Phila]

Make to "readable" fingerprints.

But, as has been pointed out, P'gal, there were numerous witnesses putting RFG in Lewisburg on 4/15/05. And no, there are not ALL wrong.

Further, why would anyone report seeing RFG unless someone said they were looking for him?

[J. J. in Phila]

In order for the 'story' to seem at all plausible, there should be a trail of witnesses, beginning with people who knew him, in his neighborhood, in his town and county and on route 192. The story doesn't hold much in the way of evidence that proves he left Bellefonte on Friday morning, that he personally traveled on route 192. It was supposedly witnessed by strangers who didn't know him, and probably couldn't pick him out of a line-up if they were presented with one. There is no trail. Why not?
JMO

I cannot recall a case where anyone remembered passing a car on a road, or saw it driving through the streets of a town. If it his something, or had shots firing from it, yes, but that was not the case. We've compared the Laci Peterson murder to this case, and Scott Peterson drove a vehicle with a trailer through a heavily (much more heavily) populated area for roughly three times the distance. Nobody remembered it.

I've often posted for people to list every car they pass while driving and the answer is always along the lines of **Well I can't, but everybody else should.** People generally don't pay attention and in most cases, it is a fleeting glimpse. Remember, RFG went from the park to the Courthouse on 4/14/05 and nobody reported seeing him.

The one case where have that, in this case is McKnight's witness, and that was at 5:00 PM in Lewisburg. The driver pulled next two him and both were stopped.

[J. J. in Phila]

I have not seen a link regarding "umbrellas" or gassing up, but there were no witnesses that saw Peterson in a truck, towing a bat through a well traveled, heavily populated area, for three times the distance between Bellefonte and Lewisburg. Is that odd and does that mean that Peterson is innocent? No, it just means people don't really pay attention.

BTW: The only thing I found was someone seeing Peterson leaving after he'd returned home from the marina.

McKnight's witness is just of three known witnesses that saw RFG in his car. And according to Madeira, they were contacted after McKnight called the BPD.

And I'll point out again that on 4/14/05, nobody saw RFG go from the Park to Courthouse, yet he did. He had to cross much of Bellefonte to get there, but no one saw him.

Is this another example of looking at the known facts and "bejeezus out of them or outright making things up to support murder scenarios?"

[gstickley]

My perspective is the same as that of Barbara Gray, the person who knew RG longer & with more personal contact than anyone else, RG's ex-wife. This was her opinion, as per Halle Stocton, The Daily Collegian, 04/15/08:

Barbara Gray, Mr. Gricar's ex-wife and mother of his daughter, Lara, wrote in an e-mail that she believes an "appropriate revisiting" of the case is worthwhile because of the possibility that someone might have a renewed willingness to come forward with information.

Ms. Gray wrote that their daughter was so "precious" to Mr. Gricar that she couldn't "imagine him consciously choosing to leave her."

[J. J. in Phila]

Who else saw him in the car, and were all three able to identify both the driver as having been RG and the car licence plates as having been the correct MiniCooper?

I am certain I read McKnight's complaint was because the couple had not been contacted by LE, as late as this summer. Are you referring to contact by LE 3.5 years ago or this last summer?

I have no idea what happened to RG based on the evidence we have been presented with, nor do I push the 'bejessus' out of any ONE theory. Facts are facts. 'Force-fitting' them in order to convince or coerce anyone to believe a theory is not MY agenda, nor has it ever been.

What exactly are you referring to as 'outright making up things'?
JMO

My question was other Peterson case and the loading of "umbrellas." The only thing I found on the CTV site was that someone saw Scott Peterson leaving for a store after he returned from the bay. As far as I've read about that case, no witness saw him leaving for the bay, returning from the bay, or driving to or from the bay. Roughly three times the distance, through a more densely populated area, in broad daylight, and no one saw him.

I am referring to what Madeira said about the initial McKnight report to the BPD.

And yes, you, and a few other posters are not being objective and are "twisting the bejeezus" out of the facts. No one here questions if Scott Peterson went to the bay that day (or transported Laci's body there). I don't, and as far I know, you are not proclaiming Peterson's innocence. Yet we have more evidence that RFG was in Lewisburg than we do that Peterson went to the bay.

Now, that doesn't tell us what happened to him, at all, but it does tell us what happened that day.

GS, while his ex wife doesn't think it's possible for RFG to have walked away, his current closer contacts do. That might touch on demeanor or motivation, but motivation is not the key.

[Politigal]

My question was other Peterson case and the loading of "umbrellas." The only thing I found on the CTV site was that someone saw Scott Peterson leaving for a store after he returned from the bay. As far as I've read about that case, no witness saw him leaving for the bay, returning from the bay, or driving to or from the bay. Roughly three times the distance, through a more densely populated area, in broad daylight, and no one saw him.

I am referring to what Madeira said about the initial McKnight report to the BPD.

And yes, you, and a few other posters are not being objective and are "twisting the bejeezus" out of the facts. No one here questions if Scott Peterson went to the bay that day (or transported Laci's body there). I don't, and as far I know, you are not proclaiming Peterson's innocence. Yet we have more evidence that RFG was in Lewisburg than we do that Peterson went to the bay.

Now, that doesn't tell us what happened to him, at all, but it does tell us what happened that day.

GS, while his ex wife doesn't think it's possible for RFG to have walked away, his current closer contacts do. That might touch on demeanor or motivation, but motivation is not the key.

Who said his "current closer contacts" STILL DO? Iirc - in the very beginning, Stephen Sloane thought it might have been possible, but Tony wrote that opinions changed.

[J. J. in Phila]

Who said his "current closer contacts" STILL DO? Iirc - in the very beginning, Stephen Sloane thought it might have been possible, but Tony wrote that opinions changed.

Not that I know of. The discussions between Sloane and RFG were just reported. So we now have RFG discussing two walkaway cases with Sloane, Wiley and O'Kicki.

http://community.centredaily.com/?q=node/6371#comment-7788

Good evidence relating to demeanor and motivation, but not means.

[Politigal]

Not that I know of. The discussions between Sloane and RFG were just reported. So we now have RFG discussing two walkaway cases with Sloane, Wiley and O'Kicki.

http://community.centredaily.com/?q=node/6371#comment-7788

Good evidence relating to demeanor and motivation, but not means.

Why don't you email Tony and asked if Gricar's friends opinions have changed? From what I gather, they now believe he was a victim of homicide.

[gstickley]

Not that I know of. The discussions between Sloane and RFG were just reported. So we now have RFG discussing two walkaway cases with Sloane, Wiley and O'Kicki.

http://community.centredaily.com/?q=node/6371#comment-7788

Good evidence relating to demeanor and motivation, but not means.

3+ yrs. later, SS decides to speak about RG. Kinda strange he waited so long, don't ya think???? Did anyone else report conversations with RG about Wiley/O'Kicki? (Don't count KA, because she doesn't know whether RG was involved in the conversation at the office, according to her Magnificent Manuscript.)

[J. J. in Phila]

3+ yrs. later, SS decides to speak about RG. Kinda strange he waited so long, don't ya think???? Did anyone else report conversations with RG about Wiley/O'Kicki? (Don't count KA, because she doesn't know whether RG was involved in the conversation at the office, according to her Magnificent Manuscript.)

Who said he waited that long regarding O'Kicki? JKA noted that it was discussed in the office, though doesn't remember a time frame. It is very unusual that a case with no connection to the Centre County would be the topic of conversation in the Centre County DA's office, at least three years after it happened.

Perhaps the reason Sloane didn't mention Wiley is that nobody asked him. Somebody just may have asked the right question.

[J. J. in Phila]

For heaven's sake, JJ, EVERYONE in this area has talked about O'Kicki at some time or another, and many still bring it up in conversation at times. What's the big deal with that? There isn't any-----
JMO

And Wiley. RFG had a conversation (conversations?) about O'Kicki with Sloane, not a brief mention. Now we have two. O'Kicki vanished in the late summer of 1992. Sloane would have just starting working there and was laid off very quickly.

As I've said, I'm not looking for intent or motivation. There were a lot of "demeanor" reports, unusual behavior, odd comments.

Is there any evidence that RFG had the means of leaving Lewisburg? If no, after a thorough check, I'd be inclined to write it off as coincidence. Means is the key question.

[gstickley]

Who said he waited that long regarding O'Kicki? JKA noted that it was discussed in the office, though doesn't remember a time frame. It is very unusual that a case with no connection to the Centre County would be the topic of conversation in the Centre County DA's office, at least three years after it happened.

Perhaps the reason Sloane didn't mention Wiley is that nobody asked him. Somebody just may have asked the right question.

Sheesh, JJ, people sit or stand around in every office & talk about anything/everything during breaks, lunches, etc. I don't understand your insistence that it is "very unusual" to be talking about anything, anyplace, anytime. (Also, I believe you're the one who brought up Wiley's name on the board some time prior to KA's Magnificent Manuscript; I felt she was just commenting on something you'd posted previously. I know I'd never heard of Wiley until you brought up the name, then was surprised that she remembered the name had been mentoned in the office.)

Perhaps Sloane could have contacted LE upon RG's disappearance & given a statement, seeing as how he was one of only 2 friends of RG, when LE didn't feel it necessary to contact him.

[J. J. in Phila]

Sheesh, JJ, people sit or stand around in every office & talk about anything/everything during breaks, lunches, etc. I don't understand your insistence that it is "very unusual" to be talking about anything, anyplace, anytime. (Also, I believe you're the one who brought up Wiley's name on the board some time prior to KA's Magnificent Manuscript; I felt she was just commenting on something you'd posted previously. I know I'd never heard of Wiley until you brought up the name, then was surprised that she remembered the name had been mentoned in the office.)

Perhaps Sloane could have contacted LE upon RG's disappearance & given a statement, seeing as how he was one of only 2 friends of RG, when LE didn't feel it necessary to contact him.

I cited it as an example, which triggers something in JKA, to the point where she out it in the preview of her pitiful pages. She even noted that it was an example. The comment however might have been the right question. :)

Yes, while O'Kicki wasn't too unusual (It was March of 1993; I checked). Wiley was old case with no connection to Centre County or Sloane. Yes, it is unusual.

[Serendipitous1]

Sorry, but when I think about the roads I have been drug down in this case...not just by y'all....."I'll do my crying in the rain":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1GgHBQYZA8

[Cloudbuster]

What is starting to bug me is the Huntingdon sighting near a body of water. If someone was following RG then Huntingdon would of been an Ideal place to abduct him. It tells me that no one was following RG and he had to have something concrete in mind for Lewisburg that day and who he was meeting.

I have a question? Seems PF didn't know about him going to Huntingdon thursday. She knew he was on 192 friday because of a call to her but why didn't he tell her thursday where he was heading? Why so much secrecy with his SO?

[J. J. in Phila]

The "secrecy" appears to be across the board. RFG didn't seem to mention the trip to anyone.

[J. J. in Phila]

LW, as far as we know, RFG never mentioned that he was taking Thursday off, but he did. He was someplace, possibly Lake Raystown, but no one saw him driving there (which is understandable).

Wiley "dealings" are unlikely, because they were in different counties. Wiley wasn't chief when RFG was there. None of that is the unusual part.

Sloane definitely did not have an Ohio connection. It was at least eight years after that Wiley got interjected into the conversation.

If you call that strange, you have to call Thursday equally strange (except RFG came back).

These things are demeanor and motivation indications. PB got it right; there are a lot of strange things that went on RFG's life and the can point to walkaway.

If there was no practical way for RFG to leave Lewisburg unmolested, and by his own choice, they are just oddities. It has, for the last 11 months at least, come down to means. If there is evidence that someone unknown managed to get out of Lewisburg on 4/15-
4/16/05, we probably have our answer.

Another officer's death in Philadelphia, but this time a car accident. I can hear the helicopter. :rose:

[J. J. in Phila]

Why don't you email Tony and asked if Gricar's friends opinions have changed? From what I gather, they now believe he was a victim of homicide.

Could you cite the post where he's said that? The only thing that I've seen is that Sloane didn't think it was suicide.

[Serendipitous1]

Could you cite the post where he's said that? The only thing that I've seen is that Sloane didn't think it was suicide.If Gricar's disposition was so gregaricous, we would surely not be here. Fire and rain: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T35WXFOmwI

[sherrijean981]

Who said he waited that long regarding O'Kicki? JKA noted that it was discussed in the office, though doesn't remember a time frame. It is very unusual that a case with no connection to the Centre County would be the topic of conversation in the Centre County DA's office, at least three years after it happened.

Perhaps the reason Sloane didn't mention Wiley is that nobody asked him. Somebody just may have asked the right question.


Maybe the topic of conversation came up because one of the news stations brought the topic up? Like they do with RG every so often to remind others of the missing DA, maybe the O'Kicki case was brought up if someone saw him or there was a question on his case in the news?

[J. J. in Phila]

Maybe the topic of conversation came up because one of the news stations brought the topic up? Like they do with RG every so often to remind others of the missing DA, maybe the O'Kicki case was brought up if someone saw him or there was a question on his case in the news?

Initially, it wasn't in the news locally (I was living there at the time). 1993+, no, it wasn't in the news until this year. Locally, in Ohio, yes.

The question is, why would RFG tell Sloane about it?

[sherrijean981]

Initially, it wasn't in the news locally (I was living there at the time). 1993+, no, it wasn't in the news until this year. Locally, in Ohio, yes.

The question is, why would RFG tell Sloane about it?

I remember O'Kicki being talked about before this year. When did he disappear?

[sherrijean981]

I remember O'Kicki being talked about before this year. When did he disappear?


I remembered hearing about O'Kicki when I still lived in Centre County and we had this HUGE satelite dish to get our tv stations. I think Johnstown was the local station we picked up on it.
We lived there from 1986 - 1993, but the dish did not work the last couple of years, so it had to be around the time he was being investigated by the Attorney Generals office for corruption. that was in 1987, 1988, 1989. I also remember in the 90's of hearing about how he went to Slovenia. When I first came on here we discussed a book he was supposed to have written. Wonder if they ever found that?

[J. J. in Phila]

I remember O'Kicki being talked about before this year. When did he disappear?

O'Kicki left (from the State College Airport) in March of 1993, and there issues regarding his pension after that. He was still in the news, certainly in Johnstown-Altoona-State College media market. I could see how O'Kicki would come up occasionally.

Wiley wouldn't; I'd never heard him mentioned in the local media, even in 1985.

[tonyGricar]

When I saw the enlarged picture of Lara wearing the necklace at the 2nd press conference and the saddened looks I knew that he was dead and they found him and she was wearing the ashes.

Those are only my opinion, but the necklace gave it away. I am sure most people did not know the significance of what she had around her neck.

Pathetic and disgusting. Quite the libelous feat, even by your standards, although I'm not sure how it was possible given your previous claims that Ray had rented an apartment, in Bellefonte, and was living there all along.

/pills are gooood.

[Cinderella]

Pathetic and disgusting. Quite the libelous feat, even by your standards, although I'm not sure how it was possible given your previous claims that Ray had rented an apartment, in Bellefonte, and was living there all along.

/pills are gooood.

Good Evening tony, long time no see. I never said that Ray was in an apartment in Bellefonte. I would not know about pills. Are they goooood?

[sherrijean981]

Good Evening tony, long time no see. I never said that Ray was in an apartment in Bellefonte. I would not know about pills. Are they goooood?


Yes you did. You told me when we were in Bellefonte that day.

[J. J. in Phila]

Perhaps one of them read Law Enforcement News, considering the case was mentioned there as late as 2000. Obviously it wasn't a secret, considering the story was also in TIME magazine and on CBS news.

The disappearance of any law enforcement official, particularly someone from the 'home' state, might have attracted RG's attention. I fail to see how a mention, if it even occurred, can be misconstued to the point where it is now elevated to apparent 'obsession' with Wiley by RG. IMO, it doesn't appear RG was nearly as obsessed with it as others appear to be at the present time. I don't recall the family ever mentioning any over-zealousness on RG's part concerning the Wiley case.
JMO


And it suddenly becomes a topic of conversation with Sloane?

1985, I can see Wiley coming up easily in conversation. Minimum of three years late, when JKA thinks she hears it, no. 1993, minimum, a conversation with Sloane. No LW, that one is strange.

[Cloudbuster]

Yes you did. You told me when we were in Bellefonte that day.

SJ If Cind said that then why didn't you 2 go and get pictures that day considering you took pictures of everything else?

[Cinderella]

Yes you did. You told me when we were in Bellefonte that day.

Now I know what you were talking about SherriJean, we were discussing the place that your husband moved into when he was having the affair with that woman that you throw stuff in her yard and got into trouble over it. It is funny that you can't remember that.

[Serendipitous1]

And it suddenly becomes a topic of conversation with Sloane? 1985, I can see Wiley coming up easily in conversation. Minimum of three years late, when JKA thinks she hears it, no. 1993, minimum, a conversation with Sloane. No LW, that one is strange.But Wiley was then back in the news (in Ohio, where RG maintained his registration to practice law) because Wiley's mother petitioned the court to have him declared legally dead. It is apparently you (and PB) who cannot understand why RG might have discussed Wiley at that time. I find nothing strange about it.

[J. J. in Phila]

RG has been gone for over 3.5 years now. IF NO answers are found to lead to some conclusion regarding the RG case, do you honestly believe that the RG case might not come up in conversation in Ohio ten, twenty, thirty years from now? Unsolved mysteries are talked about for decades after, and not just in the state of disappearance.

Every PSU/State College graduate around the world remembers hearing something about the murder in PSU Pattee library. What makes you think every law enforcement person who was around in 1985 hadn't heard about the missing sheriff? You have yet to show a point of obsession on RG's part. A mention means nothing; show me the point of obsession. IMO, it's NOT there on RG's part.
JMO

Yes, every PSU alum has heard of it, but I've never heard of anyone discussing with their non-alum, non-local, friends. And very few would remember the name. I'd heard the story and didn't remember the name. It never came up in conversations with my Penn State coworker of a year, and she started there six years after the murder.

I remembered an Ohio police chief that vanished in 1985, had an interest in Burnt Cabins, PA (that was part of what attracted me to the story), and whose story was in Time but I could not remember the name. That's what I Googled.

I don't have to show "obsession," only interest, well after the fact. It's one in a string of very unusual things RFG said and did before 4/15/05.

[J. J. in Phila]

But Wiley was then back in the news (in Ohio, where RG maintained his registration to practice law) because Wiley's mother petitioned the court to have him declared legally dead. It is apparently you (and PB) who cannot understand why RG might have discussed Wiley at that time. I find nothing strange about it.

Not in Centre County, however. It was a strange topic to raise with Sloane, who has no Ohio ties. It was a strange topic to be discussed in the office, as per JKA. I have ties to friends in Western PA, but I never discussed "current events" with Phila co-workers, unless they had ties to the area. It is one of several unusual things about RFG's demeanor, as it where.

[J. J. in Phila]

S1, let me put it this way. If we found out that in 12/03 RFG was discussing the Luna case with employees, I wouldn't find it too unusual; the case was in the news.

If we found out that RFG was discussing the Luna case with Sloane in March of 2005, I'd find it a bit unusual. It wasn't a top story, but Sloane lived in Lancaster after graduating law school.

If we found out that RFG went to visit some old friends in Cleveland in 3/2005, that have no ties to the Lancaster area or the Luna case, and began talking about the Luna case, I find it very unusual

[gstickley]

Where in the following, taken from Karen Arnold's Magnificent Manuscript, does she say Ray Gricar was speaking about Mel Wiley?
Also, I believe JJ brought up Wiley way before KA's manuscript appeared.

(b) JJ's thoughts on Mel Wiley:

JJ raised on the board early on various cases in which he indicated that a formerly responsible, apparently well-functioning adult had, for no apparent reason, simply walked off from his/her life never to be heard from again, or, in one case he brought up, to resurface many years later living a 'new' life. The cases were all raised to support JJ's argument that, notwithstanding the singular dearth of evidence of walkoff, that Ray had likely done the same thing.

One of the cases raised by JJ stands well apart from all the others he cited, and that is the 1985 disappearance of Chief Mel Wiley, head of the Hinckley, Ohio police department, a small town near Cleveland, Ohio. He initially raised the case as part of a list of other 'walkoff' situations within the first few days of his entry if I recall correctly. It was little-discussed initially but very extensively discussed at a later point in the discussion. I'm not sure without going through the 1,000+ summaries if any of the renewed discussion on Wiley is still available publicly, but the Wiley case can be independently reviewed through media archives local to that area, once you know the name and have the relevant timeframe of the incident.

Mel Wiley's disappearance occurred in late July of 1985. Whether it was something of which Ray or individuals in the office who had attended Ohio schools knew about, I'm not sure. Part of me has a vague sense that perhaps Wiley's name was once mentioned in the office, some reference to "good old Mel Wiley", though not by Ray, but when JJ brought it up, it did not initially sound familiar, so I'm not sure if the memory of the name beingmentioned is in fact accurate. In either event, the facts of the case were definitely not something Iever recall hearing prior to JJ's bringing it up. At the time Wiley disappeared, Ray would have been living in Centre County about 4-5 years and had just been elected DA for the first time.

(snip)

[J. J. in Phila]

And, somebody discussed the topic, someone brought it up. Where did Sloane hear it? From RFG. Where did the others, the ones JKA seems to kinda, sorta remembers, hear about it?

It wasn't an issue in Centre County. She didn't bring it up, yet she has a "vague sense" it was discussed. This "vague sense" is from a person who cannot remember if she saw RFG on 4/14/05.

I could easily understand this being discussed in 1985. I could very easily understand RFG reading about in 1993. I could understand it being discussed with a former colleague or friend in Cleveland.

I can not understand it being discussed, after 1988 in JKA's case, or after 1993, in Sloane's case, in the DA's office in Centre County. We are getting entirely too many coincidences.

PB noted some odd things, as did JKA. That is more than enough for me for say, let's look at possible methods RFG could have used to voluntarily get out of Lewisburg. It comes down to means. Is there evidence of means?

[Chump#7]

Depends on what you make of the Fenton sighting (witness).

This ought to be good.

[J. J. in Phila]

Depends on what you make of the Fenton sighting (witness).

This ought to be good.

We have two witnesses, both who knew RFG, and one who is an ex-police officer, that both saw RFG in a different car. They do not agree on the day. I think it is possible he was driving a different car.

[Politigal]

This older article sums up the Gricar sightings IMO --

http://www.centredaily.com/news/ray_gricar/story/3785.html

BELLEFONTE — Reported sightings of District Attorney Ray Gricar, missing since mid-April, keep getting more and more implausible.

JJ - note that word "implausible."

:read:

Implausible being the opposite of plausible --

Seemingly or apparently valid, likely, or acceptable; credible

[J. J. in Phila]

This older article sums up the Gricar sightings IMO --

http://www.centredaily.com/news/ray_gricar/story/3785.html

BELLEFONTE — Reported sightings of District Attorney Ray Gricar, missing since mid-April, keep getting more and more implausible.

JJ - note that word "implausible."

:read:

Implausible being the opposite of plausible --

Seemingly or apparently valid, likely, or acceptable; credible

Please note that these were not that these were a sighting in Michigan and Ohio. Lewisburg is in Pennsylvania. Also note that each sighting had one witness, unlike Lewisburg that had 8-10 witnesses, that we know of.

Do you actually read what you post?

[Politigal]

Please note that these were not that these were a sighting in Michigan and Ohio. Lewisburg is in Pennsylvania. Also note that each sighting had one witness, unlike Lewisburg that had 8-10 witnesses, that we know of.

Do you actually read what you post?


As has been posted before ....NO ONE reported seeing Gricar in Lewisburg until it was reported that his car had been found there....NO ONE.

His disappearance was all over the news....yet no one came forward claiming to have seen him in Lewisburg....until that car was found.

[J. J. in Phila]

As has been posted before ....NO ONE reported seeing Gricar in Lewisburg until it was reported that his car had been found there....NO ONE.

His disappearance was all over the news....yet no one came forward claiming to have seen him in Lewisburg....until that car was found.

False once again.

1. The press conference was at 3:30 PM and the news doesn't come on until 6:00 PM (It might have been preempted, as it often is on Saturdays).

2. It was on the news in the Johnstown-Altoona-State College media market. Lewisburg isn't in the Johnstown-Altoona-State College media market. (That's the reason you don't see a lot of newstories about the strange lights in the sky on your local news).

3. Many times, nobody will call until they see a news story, several times. I saw a guy suspected of murder once; I didn't know that until I realized I was in the same spot where the murder occurred (a supermarket parking lot). By the time I realized he may have been the same guy, he'd been arrested.:rolleyes:

[J. J. in Phila]

IF a witness reported seeing RG in Lewisburg prior to the SP officer finding the car in the SOS lot on his way to dinner, IIRC, why didn't LE find the car sooner?
JMO

You better reread it. None of the witnesses knew anyone was looking for RFG before the car was found, or only within minutes of it.

[Cinderella]

http://www.centredaily.com/news/ray_gricar/v-story_images/story/3794.html?KeepThis=true&TB_iframe=true&height=450&width=650



Close up picture of a cremation necklace


http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Cremation-Cylinder-Gold-urns-Necklace-locket-jewelry_W0QQitemZ200187847109QQihZ010QQcategoryZ88 742QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting


This is the cremation necklace that a Funeral Home in Bellefonte sells.

[sherrijean981]

SJ If Cind said that then why didn't you 2 go and get pictures that day considering you took pictures of everything else?


Because I didn't believe her! Come on, CB, in downtown Bellefonte, around everyone who knows him? Even at night he couldn't have gotten away with it.

And Cind DID say it! Whether you want to believe she would say something so ridicules or not, she said it!

[sherrijean981]

Now I know what you were talking about SherriJean, we were discussing the place that your husband moved into when he was having the affair with that woman that you throw stuff in her yard and got into trouble over it. It is funny that you can't remember that.


No, I will remember that incident every day of my life.

As a matter of fact, he was in Milroy, about 2 miles from me and I enjoyed every minute of the dumping in the yard. It was well worth the fine I got.

Now did that make you feel any better?

[J. J. in Phila]

You are saying the press conference was at 3:30, and that it didn't make the news until 6 pm? When does a news flash like this not make the news immediately? I don't do television, radio, etc., so I know little about what pre-empts and what doesn't, nor can I be a witness to say it came across the local channels at such and such a time. Just seems rather strange that any news team would simply sit on a story of a missing DA till 6 PM.
JMO

That is what I'm saying, partially. No they generally don't for a newstory.

The second thing is the media market aspect. The local news in Bellefonte are the Johnstown and Altoona stations, which are not carried in Lewisburg. Lewisburg is in the "Susquehanna Media Market," where the local news is out of Harrisburg and possibly Scranton. On 4/16/05, this was a local story.

It's not strange; they don't even break in for a murder. A sniper or a major disaster, they will break in.

A third point is that it was a Saturday. A lot of people were out and, depending on what is going on (usually sports) the local news is preempted.

[Cinderella]

The only thing that I mentioned about an apartment in Bellefonte was the ones above Plumbs Drug Store. IIRC Carla Baron stated that someone was watching Ray at the courthouse from close to Plumbs Drug Store. I stated that the person could have been looking at Ray's office from an apartment above Plumbs Drug store.

I do not speak to people that spread and tell lies about what I say. I have been honest with everyone on the board. If I mistake something wrong, I admit it. I am not afraid to say that I am wrong. Someone that purposely doesn't tell the truth, I can't trust. I just put them on ignore.

Everyone knows as much as I have search for Ray that If I thought that he was in an apartment in Bellefonte, I would be sitting outside watching.

End of story.

I

[Chump#7]

We have two witnesses, both who knew RFG, and one who is an ex-police officer, that both saw RFG in a different car. They do not agree on the day. I think it is possible he was driving a different car.

Well that's what I'm saying. If you are looking for means of RG getting out of Lewisburg, it would appear that if this sighting is credible he got out in a silver car. There you go - roll with it...

What I'm curious about is that, from what I've read, the Fenton & Grine sighting was dismissed because it conflicted with so-called Lewisburg sightings/witnesses.

What's up with that?

[J. J. in Phila]

Well that's what I'm saying. If you are looking for means of RG getting out of Lewisburg, it would appear that if this sighting is credible he got out in a silver car. There you go - roll with it...

What I'm curious about is that, from what I've read, the Fenton & Grine sighting was dismissed because it conflicted with so-called Lewisburg sightings/witnesses.

What's up with that?

Judge Grine was unsure of the day; he said Thursday or Friday. It might have been Thursday. That doesn't conflict. I don't have the witness list, so I don't know if there is a conflict. It doesn't conflict with McKnight's witness or the later witnesses; RFG could have gone to Bellefonte, collected a few things and driven back to Lewisburg to be seen at 5:00 PM.

Let's assume for a second that RFG did get a car. How? He didn't buy it under his own name; no cars were stolen over 4/15 in Lewisburg. He couldn't drive two cars at once.

Here are some possibilities:

1. He purchased a car under an assumed name and false address.

2. He rented a car under an assumed name and false address.

3. A trusted associate made a straw purchase of the car for RFG.

4. A trusted associate drove him out of Lewisburg to alternate transportation.

There should be a paper trail of the first three.

[Chump#7]

Judge Grine was unsure of the day; he said Thursday or Friday. It might have been Thursday. That doesn't conflict. I don't have the witness list, so I don't know if there is a conflict. It doesn't conflict with McKnight's witness or the later witnesses; RFG could have gone to Bellefonte, collected a few things and driven back to Lewisburg to be seen at 5:00 PM.

Let's assume for a second that RFG did get a car. How? He didn't buy it under his own name; no cars were stolen over 4/15 in Lewisburg. He couldn't drive two cars at once.

Here are some possibilities:

1. He purchased a car under an assumed name and false address.

2. He rented a car under an assumed name and false address.

3. A trusted associate made a straw purchase of the car for RFG.

4. A trusted associate drove him out of Lewisburg to alternate transportation.

There should be a paper trail of the first three.

Or he, with help a trusted associate, already had a car waiting for him in the SoS parking lot - Out of the Mini and into the other.

My question was, "Why was the Fenton/Grine sighting so easily dismissed as a credible sighting?". Surely you've read that. Fenton says herself that her sighting was dismissed because it didn't fit what they thought they had (timeline of witness accounts) in Lewisburg. Surely you know that. Why?

Judge Grine was unsure of the day; he said Thursday or Friday. It might have been Thursday. That doesn't conflict.

Listen, J.J. of Phila. I never in any way stated that this is where the conflict was. I knew Grine wasn't sure of the date. Why do you consistently take people out of context and intentionally pretend not to comprehend what was stated then spout of a smartassed rebuttal to what was never implied? Apologize.

I don't have the witness list

Then spreading "8-10, probably more" all over the interwebs is a little irresponsible in the very least. "Twisting the ever loving be je-ZUS out of the truth". No?

[J. J. in Phila]

Or he, with help a trusted associate, already had a car waiting for him in the SoS parking lot - Out of the Mini and into the other.

My question was, "Why was the Fenton/Grine sighting so easily dismissed as a credible sighting?". Surely you've read that. Fenton says herself that her sighting was dismissed because it didn't fit what they thought they had (timeline of witness accounts) in Lewisburg. Surely you know that. Why?



Listen, J.J. of Phila. I never in any way stated that this is where the conflict was. I knew Grine wasn't sure of the date. Why do you consistently take people out of context and intentionally pretend not to comprehend what was stated then spout of a smartassed rebuttal to what was never implied? Apologize.



Then spreading "8-10, probably more" all over the interwebs is a little irresponsible in the very least. "Twisting the ever loving be je-ZUS out of the truth". No?

Chump, I think not investigating the implications of the Fenton/Grine sighting was one of the things that LE didn't do well in the early days. I would state, however, that if Fenton had the day wrong, there would be no conflict. You are taking me out of context, not the other way around.

You'll note that I say "at least" when I refer to the witnesses. With what has been released, I see no conflict. What hasn't been released? I don't know. We do have 8-10 witnesses, but I know of none between roughly 1:30 PM and 5:00 PM for 4/15/05.

Nice try at spinning though, Chump#7.

[Chump#7]

I see. You're saying there is no conflict with Thursday. Correct? My apologies then. Hard to tell with you... I don't try to spin. I've got no agenda.

Anyways, didn't Courthouse video tape confirm that Fenton was where she said she was at the time she supposedly saw Gricar (Friday 4/15/05)? 3PMish? The video just couldn't pan wide enough to catch what she supposedly saw?

[J. J. in Phila]

I see. You're saying there is no conflict with Thursday. Correct? My apologies then. Hard to tell with you... I don't try to spin. I've got no agenda.


Correct!!! :) Fenton could be the one mistaken; you can't rule it out.


Anyways, didn't Courthouse video tape confirm that Fenton was where she said she was at the time she supposedly saw Gricar (Friday 4/15/05)? 3PMish? The video just couldn't pan wide enough to catch what she supposedly saw?

From what I've pieced together, it could have been either Thursday or Friday. She was there Friday, but I'm under the impression she was there Thursday as well.

Now, two questions:

1. If this was RFG driving the metallic colored car, where did get it?

2. If this was RFG driving the metallic colored car, where did it end up?

I don't have an answer.

[J. J. in Phila]

Just to be clear, I know of no conflicting witness or witnesses that conflict with Fenton's account or with the possibility that Grine saw RFG on 4/15/05. That doesn't mean that such conflicting witness or witnesses don't exist, only that I don't recall ever seeing a listing.

[Chump#7]

Well then, Hmmmm...

Just what *if* Fenton was incorrect, and it was Thursday that she and Judge Grine supposedly saw RG? Hypothetically, where does a credible sighting of RG on Thursday afternoon driving a car that is not his or Patty's behind the courthouse lead us? What was he doing? What could be gleaned from that?

I can't recall whether that's ever been discussed. Have at it.

[J. J. in Phila]

Well then, Hmmmm...

Just what *if* Fenton was incorrect, and it was Thursday that she and Judge Grine supposedly saw RG? Hypothetically, where does a credible sighting of RG on Thursday afternoon driving a car that is not his or Patty's behind the courthouse lead us? What was he doing? What could be gleaned from that?

I can't recall whether that's ever been discussed. Have at it.

A very real possibility that RFG had access to an unknown vehicle.

The one problem was, it was a fleeting glimpse, no personal contact.

If it is accurate, the first, and most important, question is:

Where did RFG get the car?

[day2day]

Hi-Mr. Gricar-
So nice to see you here! You have been in my thoughts and prayers!! It is always so nice to "see" you!!

:seeya:

[J. J. in Phila]

IIRC, Fenton said it was Friday, and Grine said it may have been Thursday. How is Grine then not a conflicting witness to her account, if he is not in complete agreement with her Friday account?
JMO

The Lewisburg witnesses. I know of no one who claimed to see RFG roughly between the hours of 1:30 PM and 5:00 PM in Lewisburg or anyplace outside of Bellefonte. Just because I don't know of any doesn't mean they don't exist. Likewise, I don't know of any witness that put RFG anyplace outside of Bellefonte at 3:00 PM on Thursday. Same caveat.

In short, RFG could have acquired another car and driven back to Bellefonte at 3:00 PM, and been back in Lewisburg, after getting the Mini, by 5:00 PM.

[J. J. in Phila]

Did the vehicle fit the description of any of the ADA's? MS, SS, ?? Did Ms. Fenton know what the ADA's vehicles were?
JMO

I don't know, but that is a good question.

[J. J. in Phila]

IF it was possibly brought into conversation one time in ten years before RG's disappearance, how is that a clue to his 'demeanor' ten years later? In those same ten years, I am certain he spoke the words 'separation', 'divorce', 'money' 'settlement', 'victim', 'homicide' MANY more times than just once.

RG was from Ohio; you apparently weren't and yet you remembered it.
Obviously if it was important enough for you to remember it happening this many years later, someone from that area, who would be much more apt to pay attention to news from the home area, would have a legit reason for having known about it, unlike someone like you who wasn't from that area. I see no 'obsession' on RG's part, IF the conversation ever happened to begin with.
JMO

Yes, and those words were all related to professional and personal actions.

Sloane was not from Ohio, however. If he were sitting around with some old Cleveland friends, I wouldn't call it too unusual. Sloane wasn't one of those. Then there is JKA's comment and emphasis; something prompted her to mention it prominently. Why does she kinda sorta remember it being discussed in the office?

The subject seems to have interested RFG. We have O'Kicki and Wiley.

And, as I've pointed out, I could remember some details, an Ohio police chief that walked away, but not his location or name. That's ironic, because if you would have asked where the buzzards returned, I'd have said "Hinckley, Ohio," without batting an eye.

It's not obsession, but it is interest, at least at this point.

[J. J. in Phila]

It appears JKA doesn't recall but Sloane does. Why would he recall something that he wasn't familiar with, since he wasn't from that 'neck of the woods'. It is my understanding it was one statement made by RG, no further questioning by Sloane as to who good ole Mel Wiley was, so was Sloane familiar with the case prior to RG's mentioning it?
JMO

JKA literally does not remember if she saw RFG on 4/14/05. No, RFG brought it up and didn't thing anything about it until asked.

[J. J. in Phila]

Next question------how many of the ADA's had second or even third vehicles and were those descriptions ever compared by LE to see if any vehicles owned by any ADA matched the description of the vehicle Fenton described? Were title transfers or insurance records or mileage logs on all 'inner circle' vehicles checked to see if there had been any recent changes sometime either before or after the disappearance? Or if any of those cars just 'disappeared'?
JMO


As far as I know, those things were not checked. They should be. A straw purchase is also possible.

(LW, this is what I've been posting about for a while.) :)

[Politigal]

It appears JKA doesn't recall but Sloane does. Why would he recall something that he wasn't familiar with, since he wasn't from that 'neck of the woods'. It is my understanding it was one statement made by RG, no further questioning by Sloane as to who good ole Mel Wiley was, so was Sloane familiar with the case prior to RG's mentioning it?
JMO

Sloane's family lived in Westerville & Columbus OH (and possibly still do)

[J. J. in Phila]

Sloane's family lived in Westerville & Columbus OH (and possibly still do)

No they didn't. Wrong again. Even Tony mentioned that once. PB just mentioned it last week: http://community.centredaily.com/?q=node/6371

Sloane's family is from the same area I'm from, he attend college at PSU and graduated in 1985, and was at Dickinson Law School, which is in PA.

When you get it wrong your really get it wrong. Or just more twisting. :rolleyes:

[Politigal]

No they didn't. Wrong again. Even Tony mentioned that once. PB just mentioned it last week: http://community.centredaily.com/?q=node/6371

Sloane's family is from the same area I'm from, he attend college at PSU and graduated in 1985, and was at Dickinson Law School, which is in PA.

When you get it wrong your really get it wrong. Or just more twisting. :rolleyes:

No, you are wrong. Some of his family lived in Westerville & Columbus, OH. But yes, Sloane went to college in Pa.

Go to www.veromi.net and input Jules Sloane - Pennsylvania.

(Tony posted once that he would ask him about it when I previously posted it) And no, Tony didn't say they didn't....Tony said he wasn't aware if they had.

[J. J. in Phila]

No, you are wrong. Some of his family lived in Westerville & Columbus, OH. But yes, Sloane went to college in Pa.

Go to www.veromi.net and input Jules Sloane - Pennsylvania.

(Tony posted once that he would ask him about it when I previously posted it) And no, Tony didn't say they didn't....Tony said he wasn't aware if they had.

Here:



Steve told me it was an actual conversation, but it was based on Steve being from Cambria County, whether he knew him, etc. I don't know if it ever wound up in any of the stories I reported, but Steve and I talked about this a good while ago.


http://community.centredaily.com/?q=node/6371

Just this week, we found out where Sloane was originally from. Cambria County. It is a PA County that includes Johnstown. Now, PB should know where Sloane was from and Sloan should know where Sloane was from. P'gal, don't you understand that Sloane is a common name and there are unrelated Sloanes across the English speaking world, that are not related. :rolleyes: Don't you understand "possible relatives" listed on that site may not be actual relatives. :read:

I actually typed in a name on that site, and the person didn't come up. Try it with you own name and state. I'll bet you'll get 100 hits, the site and I'll bet they are not all related to you.

Don't you ever get tired of being so wrong?

[Politigal]

I never said Stephen Sloane was from Ohio...I said his family lived there at one time....

Was that simple enough for you?

[J. J. in Phila]

I never said Stephen Sloane was from Ohio...I said his family lived there at one time....

Was that simple enough for you?

And the site doesn't even say that. And Sloane didn't. :rolleyes:

From what we can tell, Sloane, not his 47th cousin 18 times removed, has never lived any place except Central PA, and went to school in Central PA. No Ohio ties. No ties to Cleveland or Hinckley.

[Cloudbuster]

This case reminds me so much symbolically comparable to this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBCDvRS16_s&feature=related

[J. J. in Phila]

What you are looking at in no way lines up with my thoughts about it. I don't believe there was any 'straw purchase'. I believe it was more likely to have been a case of the 'straw that broke the camel's back'.
JMO


I make no effort to enter your mind.

Is it possible that a close friend/associate bought a car for RFG? Yes. Has this been checked out? So far as I know, no.

[J. J. in Phila]

Except that the Jules Sloan listed is from Nevada.

http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?gl=allgs&gsfn=Shelva&gsln=Moore&gss=seo&ghc=20

:rolleyes:

P'gal has it wrong again. More "twisting the bejeezus" out of things.

I tried typing in my own name, and came up with a list of people I've never heard of. :rolleyes:

[Politigal]

Except that the Jules Sloan listed is from Nevada.

http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?gl=allgs&gsfn=Shelva&gsln=Moore&gss=seo&ghc=20

:rolleyes:

P'gal has it wrong again. More "twisting the bejeezus" out of things.

I tried typing in my own name, and came up with a list of people I've never heard of. :rolleyes:

Wrong again JJ...it's Sloane --- with a "e"

[J. J. in Phila]

Wrong again JJ...it's Sloane --- with a "e"

I tried it, and it still said "possible relatives." And, had you clicked the link, you would have seen it was "Sloane." Had you read your own link, you would have noticed that "Shelva (Moore) Sloane" was one of those "possible relatives." Your elderly "Jules Sloane" lived in Nevada. I giuess georgray was not your strong suit.

Wrong again P'gal, but you have answered one of my questions. You don't read the links you post.

Let's see, you insisted that Grine knew RFG from Ohio, Sloane has this mysterious connection to Ohio, where he never lived, never attended school. Not everyone from Central PA has this connection P'gal.

[sherrijean981]

When doing geneaology searches on my family and my husbands, there were connections to numerous states, in both our families, including OH. The migration trails went cross country and followed certain roads.

When doing a research the other night on Slovenia, I found one site that gave very good info. One of the largest Slovenia migrations was to OH.

As to Sloane/Sloan even that is possible with a relative many generations back, but does not mean he himself or immediate families lived in OH.

[Politigal]

When doing geneaology searches on my family and my husbands, there were connections to numerous states, in both our families, including OH. The migration trails went cross country and followed certain roads.

When doing a research the other night on Slovenia, I found one site that gave very good info. One of the largest Slovenia migrations was to OH.

As to Sloane/Sloan even that is possible with a relative many generations back, but does not mean he himself or immediate families lived in OH.

I wasn't using genealogy sites....JJ was.

I was referring to telephone records. The Sloane's previously had telephone numbers in OH.

[J. J. in Phila]

I wasn't using genealogy sites....JJ was.

I was referring to telephone records. The Sloane's previously had telephone numbers in OH.

The records show that the Jules Sloane you found had a wife, Shelva Moore, were married in Nevada. It looks like she was born in the Carolinas. Yet we have you claiming that this Sloane is related to Stephen Sloane, the ADA, living in PA.

I simply Googled "Jules Sloane," and found that, with his wife, who is another on your list.

I would also add that Westerville isn't close to Hinckley in any event.

[sherrijean981]

I wasn't using genealogy sites....JJ was.

I was referring to telephone records. The Sloane's previously had telephone numbers in OH.


I wasn't referring to you using a genealogy site, I was just saying when families came to America from other countries, and were looking for areas to settle in, the families didn't all stay together.

Some went N, S, E, or W, because they came through Ellis Island. Trails led to OH. My husband found his family came from Lancaster and went through Centre County. Some settled near Snow Shoe, PA and developed the German Settlement. Others went on to Canada.

Has anyone ever asked SS if his parents ever lived in OH? family of any kind in OH? Doesn't mean SS lived there but some of his family could have.

RG and SS discussing a police chief from OH who disappeared doesn't mean SS knew it before hand. If he and RG were friends and RG knew the man - Wiley (he was in law in OH)- RG could very well have talked with SS about him, as a friendly conversation of his (RG's)former home state. At that time a police chief disappearing would generate a lot of interest. His brother could have talked to him about it.

RG still held his law license in OH so he probably still had connections. Did anyone ever question whether he continued receiving newspapers, letters, etc from OH?

JKA's article had said how close the employees were in the office in RG's early years and how they went to Jim's Italian Restaurant for lunches. It sounded like Rg was outgoing at that time. It was after the offices started expanding with more employees that it stopped, other than his friendship with SS and EW.

Wonder what EW would have to say about this case now over 3 years later? Wonder if he was ever questioned?

[J. J. in Phila]

I've talked with PB about Sloane, in passing, and he's from Cambria County. For CB, more Johnstown. :) He even mentioned it in his blog.

As far as anyone can determine, RFG never knew Wiley. They were in different counties and Wiley didn't become chief until after RFG moved to State College.

[Cloudbuster]

Early this evening I was at Best Buy looking at their software. They sell a product that is called HARD WIPE version 5 and if you buy it you also get a bonus that is supposed to destroy cell phone and media products data. Anyways I don't understand why a forensic wasn't included to look at Ray's cell phone. My theory is if he erased his hard drive did he also erase his cell phone once he got to his destination? Or did he possibly only erase things like text messages ect? A Tec from Best Buy told me you don't need software to erase a cell phone but that all you need to do is MASTER REMIX easy to do if you have a printout of the instructions.

Master reset
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17610867/

Select your cell phone manufacturer
Select your cell phone model
Provide your name and *email address.
Click the submit box
The free Data Eraser instructions will be automatically emailed to you. Note: If you do not receive your email within 5 minutes, please check your spam filter.
Follow the easy, step-by-step instructions to erase your personal data.
You may also email data_eraser@wirelessrecycling.com to request the addition of a particular cell phone model to our Data Eraser tool.
http://www.recellular.com/recycling/data_eraser/
------------------------------------------------------------
http://mobile.inspions.net/2006/11/18/how-to-erase-data-on-your-cell-phone/

-----------------------------------------------------------

The fact that cellphones can give up secrets makes them as valuable to law enforcement as to criminals.

Lee Reiber, a Boise, Idaho, police detective specializing in cellphone forensics, has used recovered phone data to crack homicide, child abuse, domestic abuse cases. This year alone he has examined more than 100 phones in criminal and civil investigations and recovered data from 90 percent of them, he said. A man suspected of being a pedophile was undone by his phone. "We had all his pictures," Reiber said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/20/AR2006102001647_pf.html

[J. J. in Phila]

They have his cell records; they just have not released it.

[J. J. in Phila]

IF the cell phone records answered their questions regarding the disappearance, I could understand their continued need to NOT release it. Apparently, they are incapable of determining, from the phone records, what happened to RG, therefore it should be released to the public.

They have their records for evidence so let us see it, with names and number blacked out. Let us see the frequency of calls sent and received on both 4/14 and 4/15. I have seen them released in other cases prior to cases being solved so why not in this one? Once again, enmeshment at the local level continues to be a problem.
JMO

I have absolutely no problem with the redacted cell phone records being released; I've been requesting it for years now.

I have no problem with a redacted witness list being released, with the times and locations they saw RFG and a description of what they saw.

I'd love a time line.

[Cloudbuster]

They have his cell phone records but I never heard anything about a complete cell phone forensics being conducted on the phone. What I mean is his phone book numbers was any erased? What about a calender with possible meeting dates? Im also looking at TEXT messages? Did he get rid of any text messages? Why no mention of a full forensics analysis? If let's say RG erased his laptop and some of the cell phone data is erased then they match in a way which leads to a clue. Are there any numbers on it that belong to a car dealer? Or was that erased? There is a whole lot of information that can be gleaned from a cell phone, banking transfers or checking your accounts ect. They sent the laptop out and it yeielded nothing but now I would send the cell phone out, you just never know.

[J. J. in Phila]

We shouldn't even have to ask. It should have been released, forthcoming LONG ago. MM is sitting on the information, keeping it from the public. Once election rolls around, he won't be voted back in. And the next DA must make the pledge for finding our missing DA, RG, a top priority, in writing before the election. We may have lost the battle with Morganelli losing, but that will not deter from what needs to be done-------a full investigation,including a full look at the discrepencies in the manner in which this investigation was handled.
JMO


Morganelli never promised "a full investigation," in all honesty. In the last DA's election, neither candidate touched it.

There are legitimate privacy issues, but I think they can be addressed and taken care of. That goes for both the witness list and cell phone records.

[J. J. in Phila]

MM isn't in "CONTROL." Short of a grand jury, there is very little he can do. The BPD is. Should, to paraphrase PB, they put the "cards on the table?" Yes, if it doesn't compromise the investigation or violate privacy.

Morganelli never said he'd start a "full investigation." He said he'd establish a unit to handle cold cases, like RFG's. He never said that he'd form a "task force" or encourage the locals to do so. He never said he'd call a grand jury, which he technically could. He never even said he'd "request" that the case be turned over AG's office.

Now, what can the DA (Centre or Union) or AG do? They could impanel a grand jury. We've heard that the Harrisburg Woman was not checked out. Okay, they can subpoena her. They can subpoena phone records, vehicle records, financial records. Other than a grand jury, there isn't much.

[J. J. in Phila]

WHO handed the power over to BPD?
JMO


No one, they get it because there is no real evidence of a crime in another jurisdiction. Technically, I suppose, they could have claimed that the destruction of the laptop occurred in Lewisburg, but the statute of limitations is well expired on that point and the jurisdictional hand off couldn't have occurred until 7/30/05, at any rate.

[sherrijean981]

We shouldn't even have to ask. It should have been released, forthcoming LONG ago. MM is sitting on the information, keeping it from the public. Once election rolls around, he won't be voted back in. And the next DA must make the pledge for finding our missing DA, RG, a top priority, in writing before the election. We may have lost the battle with Morganelli losing, but that will not deter from what needs to be done-------a full investigation,including a full look at the discrepencies in the manner in which this investigation was handled.
JMO


That is still not going to guarantee Mm will be voted out. If he had LE backing getting maybe he is not on the Sh__ List and they like what he has done. Maybe there are more for him than against him. Especially if the big conspiracy is in Bellefonte.

[J. J. in Phila]

Maybe, maybe not! As with all elections, guess we just have to wait to see what happens. Could get very interesting----------Worked for Corbett, so it could work again.
ANYONE happen to see any of those PA Republicans with bonuses handcuffed yet? Nah, I didn't think so.
JMO


Judging from the success of the last "political solution," I'm not optimistic. Coupled with a probable Republican year in a generally Republican county, the increasing lack of interest in the RFG case, and that MM doesn't really handle investigations, a political solution might not work.

This case will be solved by an investigation, not a campaign.

[gstickley]

I do not understand all the "MM doesn't handle investigations" garbage, unless PA DA's do a lot less work and/or have a lot less involvement with LE than those in my state. The do-nothing of both MS & MM is quite bewildering to me.

I have been directly involved with 5 different DA's in 2 different counties & had contact with numerous others. In any major investigation most definitely and in minor investigations, the DA is always kept abreast of all facets the investigation by LE. DA's have also gone to the crime scene to oversee the investigation. DA's are given preliminary reports, which are sometimes returned with recommendations for further investigation. DA's here do not have their own resources either; however, they do tend to use all resources available.

Had Ray Gricar disappeared in my area, I am positive there would have been a thorough investigation: of everything & everybody! The citizens would have seen to it! The Judges would have seen to it! The investigation would have been turned over to the State Police, who have the most resources available; it would not have been left to a small-town police department to twiddle around with for 3.5+ years.

Where were you, MS & MM. For 8 mos., MS, you were the "Chief Law Enforcement of the County"! For almost 3 yrs., MM, you have been the "Chief Law Enforcement of County"!

And, no, we never had a missing DA. We did, however, have a missing young lady from another state, who was believed 'disappeared' by a local deputy sheriff. The DA's office was a part of the investigation. Within weeks, a full complement of FBI agents & their Crime Scene Search mobile were in the area; in fact, the Special Agent in Charge became a part of my office, along with the DA. And, the deputy was convicted of Murder, with no body ever found!

A duly elected District Attorney disappeared in Centre Co. What did you do about it? Did you search water towers, landfills, bodies of water, interview the SO, interview neighbors, trace telephone calls throughout the US, obtain search warrants, dig up water lines, etc.? Did you use the FBI or PSP to its fullest extent? Did you work with other police agencies? Or did you just do the 'pats on the back' & congratulate on the nothingness 'everything's been done that could be done'?

[J. J. in Phila]

DA's generally do not investigate, in PA. There is a big difference between being informed and leading or conducting the investigation. That is one problem a lot of people have with my murder scenario; RFG prosecuted, but didn't investigate.

I cannot think of one case where "the DA investigated," in PA unless a grand jury was called.

[gstickley]

DA's generally do not investigate, in PA. There is a big difference between being informed and leading or conducting the investigation. That is one problem a lot of people have with my murder scenario; RFG prosecuted, but didn't investigate.

I cannot think of one case where "the DA investigated," in PA unless a grand jury was called.

I'm not talking about "the DA investigated". I'm talking about a DA who looks at the investigation conducted by LE, who oversees the investigation, who aids in the investigation, who is always aware of the investigation. In other words, the DA, the "Chief Law Enforcement Officer" in the county, would be involved in the investigation. And I seriously doubt if Ray Gricar just sat back & did nothing in the investigations conducted while he was DA; for example, the Shaken Baby Case. Seems to me he was pretty up-to-date on the entire case, not just sitting around waiting "to prosecute".

[day2day]

I do not understand all the "MM doesn't handle investigations" garbage, unless PA DA's do a lot less work and/or have a lot less involvement with LE than those in my state. The do-nothing of both MS & MM is quite bewildering to me.

I have been directly involved with 5 different DA's in 2 different counties & had contact with numerous others. In any major investigation most definitely and in minor investigations, the DA is always kept abreast of all facets the investigation by LE. DA's have also gone to the crime scene to oversee the investigation. DA's are given preliminary reports, which are sometimes returned with recommendations for further investigation. DA's here do not have their own resources either; however, they do tend to use all resources available.

Had Ray Gricar disappeared in my area, I am positive there would have been a thorough investigation: of everything & everybody! The citizens would have seen to it! The Judges would have seen to it! The investigation would have been turned over to the State Police, who have the most resources available; it would not have been left to a small-town police department to twiddle around with for 3.5+ years.

Where were you, MS & MM. For 8 mos., MS, you were the "Chief Law Enforcement of the County"! For almost 3 yrs., MM, you have been the "Chief Law Enforcement of County"!

And, no, we never had a missing DA. We did, however, have a missing young lady from another state, who was believed 'disappeared' by a local deputy sheriff. The DA's office was a part of the investigation. Within weeks, a full complement of FBI agents & their Crime Scene Search mobile were in the area; in fact, the Special Agent in Charge became a part of my office, along with the DA. And, the deputy was convicted of Murder, with no body ever found!

A duly elected District Attorney disappeared in Centre Co. What did you do about it? Did you search water towers, landfills, bodies of water, interview the SO, interview neighbors, trace telephone calls throughout the US, obtain search warrants, dig up water lines, etc.? Did you use the FBI or PSP to its fullest extent? Did you work with other police agencies? Or did you just do the 'pats on the back' & congratulate on the nothingness 'everything's been done that could be done'?

gs...
thank you for this post. i can't believe that MM has cared so little about Mr. Gricar. I can't believe the citzens of Centre County and the state of Pennsylvania have allowed this to happen without raising one he## of a fit.

Somethin just isn't right here...i wish i could put my finger on it.

:read:

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm not talking about "the DA investigated". I'm talking about a DA who looks at the investigation conducted by LE, who oversees the investigation, who aids in the investigation, who is always aware of the investigation. In other words, the DA, the "Chief Law Enforcement Officer" in the county, would be involved in the investigation. And I seriously doubt if Ray Gricar just sat back & did nothing in the investigations conducted while he was DA; for example, the Shaken Baby Case. Seems to me he was pretty up-to-date on the entire case, not just sitting around waiting "to prosecute".

He does not "oversee" an investigation in PA. He waits basically for the police to say "Here is what we've found out, is it solid enough for you to go into court?" Generally, it is, but there are rare cases where even a DA says, "No it isn't," and charges are dropped.

[gstickley]

gs...
thank you for this post. i can't believe that MM has cared so little about Mr. Gricar. I can't believe the citzens of Centre County and the state of Pennsylvania have allowed this to happen without raising one he## of a fit.

Somethin just isn't right here...i wish i could put my finger on it.

:read:

And MS for 8 months prior to MM's arrival.

[J. J. in Phila]

gs...
thank you for this post. i can't believe that MM has cared so little about Mr. Gricar. I can't believe the citzens of Centre County and the state of Pennsylvania have allowed this to happen without raising one he## of a fit.

Somethin just isn't right here...i wish i could put my finger on it.

:read:

Day, it is very clear that the Gricar issue is not a statewide issue and it is clear that it is not a major issue in Centre County. Some of that is because there is a strong possibility, even a probability, that RFG disappearance was voluntary (either suicide or walkaway).

Time has eroded suicide as an option, but not eliminated it. If walkaway could be eliminated or reduced, that could peak interest, a bit. The problem is, some of the evidence out there points to walkaway and nothing really points specifically to foul play.

[gstickley]

Keep readin', Day. JJ's apparently in charge of the investigation.

[J. J. in Phila]

Keep readin', Day. JJ's apparently in charge of the investigation.


No, but there are day when I wish I had some input.

[Cloudbuster]

There was a lady nemed Rebecca Romulta that had a perspective on what happened to Ray. Interestingly she is a owner of a antique shop. Yes this was posted before but the difference is coming up with a possible reason for a disappearance. What do we know?
1.) Ray was tailed by car as per Milton Police Barracks report.
2.) Ray had a water bottle in his car, was it empty and dry inside or wet? Was he going to use it to relay a message, a possible drop off.
3.) Yellow flowers in a juice container was found nearby? Was that a signal?
4.)Ray was seen at Raystown Lake. Was he picking up a message about fridays meeting?

In this article you will find some interesting things involved in secret work. The person MUST BE ABLE to go INTO HIDING on a whim and have the funds.
http://www.prisoners.com/gricari.html

Now read this.
How To master secret work:
http://www.anc.org.za/ancdocs/history/ug/secretwork.html

Sometimes the person is killed and you will see why.