8-Year-Old Arrested In Double-Homicide

[kattitude]

An 8-year-old Arizona boy may face double-murder charges in the shooting death of his father and another man at the family residence, The Arizona Republic reported Friday on its Web site.

St. John Police Chief Roy Melnick "We're going to charge an 8-year-old with two counts of homicide."

Boy may face murder charges in fatal shooting of father, boarder (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27600105/)

[Heidi J.]

:eek: I have no words..

[GentleBreeze]

White Mountain Independent (http://www.wmicentral.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20190155&BRD=2264&PAG=461&dept_id=505965&rfi=6)

Good grief.......when is this ever going to end. The murderers are getting younger and younger.

It looks like he lay in wait and most likely killed his father as he slept and then waited for the coworker of his dad's and shot him before he could even get in the door.

He probably killed him so he wouldn't discover his dad's body.

So sad.........it is a scary scary world. :(

imoo

[Joan Weiss]

White Mountain Independent (http://www.wmicentral.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20190155&BRD=2264&PAG=461&dept_id=505965&rfi=6)A hearing is scheduled tomorrow at the Apache County Juvenile Court in St. Johns where a judge will have to decide if the youth should remain in custody or be released.

"Released?" :eek: They wouldn't dare release him, would they?

[Jayne]

I agree Gentlebreeze..

it is horrifying to think that children turn to violence..and why? jealousy? parental alienation? discipline at home? too much youtube? (sorry, maybe that wasn't fair...but I do wonder..) They made find some sort of home abuse having been going on as well. Not that it justifies it, but in the mind of an 8 year old..maybe it would..were that the case.

Really sad..for everyone involved.

[kattitude]

A hearing is scheduled tomorrow at the Apache County Juvenile Court in St. Johns where a judge will have to decide if the youth should remain in custody or be released.

"Released?" :eek: They wouldn't dare release him, would they?

I tried to find information about the hearing but I couldn't find anything. Was hoping someone else might be able to. :shrug:

[joolz]

This is in no way intended as a defense of the boy, but how stupid do you have to be to leave a gun where an eight year old can get hold of it?:cuss:

[Amy S.]

I am familiar with the area and it is not uncommon for an 8 YO to have his own rifle. I am not saying that is what happened, but I am willing to guess that not too many people lock up their guns in the White Mountains.

Of course, I wouldn't have a gun anywhere near an unstable child, but maybe his folks didn't know.

I will be waiting for more information to come out about this.

I do know a 9 YO that threatens to murder his mother. So, you just never know.

[GentleBreeze]

I agree Gentlebreeze..

it is horrifying to think that children turn to violence..and why? jealousy? parental alienation? discipline at home? too much youtube? (sorry, maybe that wasn't fair...but I do wonder..) They made find some sort of home abuse having been going on as well. Not that it justifies it, but in the mind of an 8 year old..maybe it would..were that the case.

Really sad..for everyone involved.

Well Hi there, Jayne. LTNS!

You know I have researched so many of these cases in recent years that involved young murderers and the ones I have read about they weren't abused. They were undisciplined, unruly, spoiled and seemed to be an angry group when they didn't get their way about the simplest of things or if they were told no for some reason. Their motives are beyond trivial that it is mind boggling.

Their reasons have run the gambit and leaving me speechless at times. I have read some happening because they were mad that they had to do chores, didn't get to date a person that the parents didn't think were good for them, didn't get the car when they wanted to and some killed thinking it would give them financial freedom by getting the assets of the murdered parent or just thought the parent was an obstacle in their way to play and have fun or do as they pleased. It really is terrifying.

Parents seemed to have become targets and I have noticed if the parent or parents tries to set guidelines for the child the more rage they seem to exhibit.

Years ago in my hometown a 13 year old boy murdered his mom and little 5 year old sister. He had no remorse whatsoever and still doesn't.
They interviewed him years ago and ask him why he would do such a thing. His flat unemotional tone I can still remember. He simply said "my mom wanted me to watch my little sister while she did yard work and told me to take the trash out and I was tired of her telling me to do chores and my little sister bugged me." Paraphrasing. That was it.........as if it meant nothing at all. He still exhibits no remorse. It is like they are dead people walking around with no conscience or soul.

I will never understand them and I really don't want to either for I then would have to think like them and that is just not in the realm of possibilities.

Imo, abused children do not murder that often but most abuse victims will endure the abuse until they are of age where they can leave the abusive environment.

imo

[Kether]

There is something way off about this whole story. This article gives quite a bit more details than any of the others that I have found. Odd that this child has NEVER been in trouble at school. Odd that there has NEVER been any reports to CPS. Odd that the mother of the child was at the home the weekend of the shooting but left soon after to go back to Mississippi.

http://ktar.com/index.php?nid=6&sid=986865

[velvetbrown]

There is something way off about this whole story. This article gives quite a bit more details than any of the others that I have found. Odd that this child has NEVER been in trouble at school. Odd that there has NEVER been any reports to CPS. Odd that the mother of the child was at the home the weekend of the shooting but left soon after to go back to Mississippi.

http://ktar.com/index.php?nid=6&sid=986865

Couldn't get page to open...So, Mom didn't have custody? Dad given custody? Mom LEAVES state when 8yo arrested? Oh yeah, typical family dynamics...

[Kether]

Couldn't get page to open...So, Mom didn't have custody? Dad given custody? Mom LEAVES state when 8yo arrested? Oh yeah, typical family dynamics...

Yes, according to this article the father had custody. The mother had been visiting for the weekend and went back home to Mississippi, but she did return back to Arizona after the child was arrested. :shrug:

[Kether]

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/11/08/20081108kidmurder1108.html

[GentleBreeze]

Couldn't get page to open...So, Mom didn't have custody? Dad given custody? Mom LEAVES state when 8yo arrested? Oh yeah, typical family dynamics...

I think the mom came this past weekend from MS then she returned but came back to AZ after he had murdered them.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

Was the father remarried?

http://ktar.com/index.php?nid=6&sid=986865

Police arrived at the victim's house he shared with his wife within minutes of the shooting Wednesday, said Roy Melnick, St. Johns police chief. They found one victim just outside the front door and the other dead in an upstairs room.

It isn't that unusual anymore for the father to have custody of the children and raise them in his home.

imo

[Kether]

According to the last article posted, there is a step mom. She wasn't home at the time of the incidence. According to the comments of some of the articles, it is clear to see that both families involved were very beloved by the community. One person on the comments sections claims this all was over the child being upset about his report card. :shrug:

[Jayne]

Well Hi there, Jayne. LTNS!

You know I have researched so many of these cases in recent years that involved young murderers and the ones I have read about they weren't abused. They were undisciplined, unruly, spoiled and seemed to be an angry group when they didn't get their way about the simplest of things or if they were told no for some reason. Their motives are beyond trivial that it is mind boggling.

Their reasons have run the gambit and leaving me speechless at times. I have read some happening because they were mad that they had to do chores, didn't get to date a person that the parents didn't think were good for them, didn't get the car when they wanted to and some killed thinking it would give them financial freedom by getting the assets of the murdered parent or just thought the parent was an obstacle in their way to play and have fun or do as they pleased. It really is terrifying.

Parents seemed to have become targets and I have noticed if the parent or parents tries to set guidelines for the child the more rage they seem to exhibit.

Years ago in my hometown a 13 year old boy murdered his mom and little 5 year old sister. He had no remorse whatsoever and still doesn't.
They interviewed him years ago and ask him why he would do such a thing. His flat unemotional tone I can still remember. He simply said "my mom wanted me to watch my little sister while she did yard work and told me to take the trash out and I was tired of her telling me to do chores and my little sister bugged me." Paraphrasing. That was it.........as if it meant nothing at all. He still exhibits no remorse. It is like they are dead people walking around with no conscience or soul.

I will never understand them and I really don't want to either for I then would have to think like them and that is just not in the realm of possibilities.

Imo, abused children do not murder that often but most abuse victims will endure the abuse until they are of age where they can leave the abusive environment.

imo

I understand, GB, and I agree with it, even the final sentence...most abused children (and adults) that I've 'seen/encountered' do endure it and many adults don't leave (have worked with battered women groups, which include men, too).

And, I do think, as you described, there are a lot of children who just seem to have this "hatred" in them and defy parental authority, and the ways the laws are these days a parent can hardly discipline a child (and I don't mean corporal necessarily) without the child calling 911 or reporting it at school. The parents are put between a rock and a hard place with children who are "difficult" but not necessarily "bad" kids. IMO, there is an upswing of Parental Abuse going on...in different forms, mostly psychological and verbal. Kids today seem to know how to push the buttons and keep them down with an actual or silent threat to their parents. Sort of a "Make me do it" attitude. Being a single parent myself, I understand how difficult it can be setting parameters but not able to be Home 24/7 to make sure they are abided by. I'm thankful my teen, although not consistently keeping up with the few "chores" or even his own "needs to do" things, is a good kid and we are able to sit down and talk things through when he gets "ticked" or I get totally frustrated.

I'm way old-fashioned I guess. I do my best to limit or let's say Monitor my kid's YouTube...and definitely monitor his Friends, there's so much going on today in the internet, schools, community, etc. that it's like being a policeman. I'd give anything to have computers illegal for anyone under the age of 18 unless accompanied by an adult family member. I know that sounds ridiculous...I'd like to see all porno..soft, hard, and inbetween banned from the internet, as well as "violence". I'd like to see the movie industry change their ratings...G is fine if it's really G. R is R..no provisos..simply R and not to be viewed by anyone under a particular age.

But my "likes" will never happen..and so I and so many parents will have to continue to monitor their children and Pray that outside influences as well as whatever is going on in the household isn't enabling the children to become "out of control".

I don't remember the statistics..but I think it is something close to: A child's Character is developed in the first 3-5 years of life. I deliberately did not work, depleted all my savings, to be home 24/7 with my child until I had to return to work when he was almost 4..but made it PT and spent a lot of time the next two years before FT and hired a responsible "nanny type" to be there during work hours. I had no parents/grandparents or spouse around to help. Never would I blame families who shuffle their kids off to daycare...it CAN work. But this splitting up of families and absence of parent or parents..it has to affect kids..and lead to the Spoiling, undiscipline, unruly, etc. that you spoke of.

I drive my kid to school every morning and pick him up. Yesterday, I observed two "youths" get into their big ars truck and SPEED out the driveway (left rubber on the road)..just missing the side of my car as my kid was getting in our car. The principal was out there..gave a "look" toward the speeding truck. I wonder if those kids will be suspended? I doubt it. I'm thinking...Thank God I pick my kid up and am there 2 minutes early from "let out". 30 years ago..I'd have stepped outside my car..said something to those kids or taken down their license number. (Actually back in MA..I did it once..I was a teacher...two hours later when I went to leave the school..all 4 of my tires were Slashed.) If I did that today..my and my kid's life could be in danger. Because..they'd know it was Me..not the Principal who reported them.

I'm afraid for families today...and children like this little 8 yo. Why did he do it? Did he realize what he was doing? This isn't a cartoon..they don't come back next Saturday on TV.

This 8 yo may lie within what you've posted and what I agree with...yet, there may have been something going on..not that it justifies it..no way.

I wonder..the biological mom visits..leaves..then comes back after the murder (according to another post). What happened while she was visiting? and the Step Mom (another post)..where was/is she?

I wonder if the boy didn't want (or think he wanted) to be with his biological mom...and figured this was his way out and back to mom? Or did Mom do it? (or enable it?) Bad timing for mom.

No accusations..just thinking..

jmo

J

[GentleBreeze]

According to the last article posted, there is a step mom. She wasn't home at the time of the incidence. According to the comments of some of the articles, it is clear to see that both families involved were very beloved by the community. One person on the comments sections claims this all was over the child being upset about his report card. :shrug:

OMG, Kether. I hope that doesn't turn out to be true.

To murder rather than let the father know he had made bad grades? If so, I guess he knew that he would be put on restriction or had been put on restriction if the dad already knew about them and he just wasn't going to stand for that.

As I said their motives so many times are just mind boggling.

imoo

[Kether]

OMG, Kether. I hope that doesn't turn out to be true.

To murder rather than let the father know he had made bad grades? If so, I guess he knew that he would be put on restriction or had been put on restriction if the dad already knew about them and he just wasn't going to stand for that.

As I said their motives so many times are just mind boggling.

imoo

I can't accept at this point that this is over a report card. I noticed this in one article.

Melnick said police had responded to calls of domestic violence at the Romero home in the past, but police were searching records Saturday to determine when those calls were placed.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081108/ap_on_re_us/child_charged

[GentleBreeze]

I can't accept at this point that this is over a report card. I noticed this in one article.

Melnick said police had responded to calls of domestic violence at the Romero home in the past, but police were searching records Saturday to determine when those calls were placed.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081108/ap_on_re_us/child_charged

It seems if the domestic calls involved the boy there would be complaints filed.

From one of the articles you linked.

"The boy had no disciplinary record at school, and there was no record of complaints with Arizona Child Protective Services."


May have been domestic disputes with his ex wife.

imoo

[forensicfan]

I understand, GB, and I agree with it, even the final sentence...most abused children (and adults) that I've 'seen/encountered' do endure it and many adults don't leave (have worked with battered women groups, which include men, too).

And, I do think, as you described, there are a lot of children who just seem to have this "hatred" in them and defy parental authority, and the ways the laws are these days a parent can hardly discipline a child (and I don't mean corporal necessarily) without the child calling 911 or reporting it at school. The parents are put between a rock and a hard place with children who are "difficult" but not necessarily "bad" kids. IMO, there is an upswing of Parental Abuse going on...in different forms, mostly psychological and verbal. Kids today seem to know how to push the buttons and keep them down with an actual or silent threat to their parents. Sort of a "Make me do it" attitude. Being a single parent myself, I understand how difficult it can be setting parameters but not able to be Home 24/7 to make sure they are abided by. I'm thankful my teen, although not consistently keeping up with the few "chores" or even his own "needs to do" things, is a good kid and we are able to sit down and talk things through when he gets "ticked" or I get totally frustrated.

I'm way old-fashioned I guess. I do my best to limit or let's say Monitor my kid's YouTube...and definitely monitor his Friends, there's so much going on today in the internet, schools, community, etc. that it's like being a policeman. I'd give anything to have computers illegal for anyone under the age of 18 unless accompanied by an adult family member. I know that sounds ridiculous...I'd like to see all porno..soft, hard, and inbetween banned from the internet, as well as "violence". I'd like to see the movie industry change their ratings...G is fine if it's really G. R is R..no provisos..simply R and not to be viewed by anyone under a particular age.

But my "likes" will never happen..and so I and so many parents will have to continue to monitor their children and Pray that outside influences as well as whatever is going on in the household isn't enabling the children to become "out of control".

I don't remember the statistics..but I think it is something close to: A child's Character is developed in the first 3-5 years of life. I deliberately did not work, depleted all my savings, to be home 24/7 with my child until I had to return to work when he was almost 4..but made it PT and spent a lot of time the next two years before FT and hired a responsible "nanny type" to be there during work hours. I had no parents/grandparents or spouse around to help. Never would I blame families who shuffle their kids off to daycare...it CAN work. But this splitting up of families and absence of parent or parents..it has to affect kids..and lead to the Spoiling, undiscipline, unruly, etc. that you spoke of.

I drive my kid to school every morning and pick him up. Yesterday, I observed two "youths" get into their big ars truck and SPEED out the driveway (left rubber on the road)..just missing the side of my car as my kid was getting in our car. The principal was out there..gave a "look" toward the speeding truck. I wonder if those kids will be suspended? I doubt it. I'm thinking...Thank God I pick my kid up and am there 2 minutes early from "let out". 30 years ago..I'd have stepped outside my car..said something to those kids or taken down their license number. (Actually back in MA..I did it once..I was a teacher...two hours later when I went to leave the school..all 4 of my tires were Slashed.) If I did that today..my and my kid's life could be in danger. Because..they'd know it was Me..not the Principal who reported them.

I'm afraid for families today...and children like this little 8 yo. Why did he do it? Did he realize what he was doing? This isn't a cartoon..they don't come back next Saturday on TV.

This 8 yo may lie within what you've posted and what I agree with...yet, there may have been something going on..not that it justifies it..no way.

I wonder..the biological mom visits..leaves..then comes back after the murder (according to another post). What happened while she was visiting? and the Step Mom (another post)..where was/is she?

I wonder if the boy didn't want (or think he wanted) to be with his biological mom...and figured this was his way out and back to mom? Or did Mom do it? (or enable it?) Bad timing for mom.

No accusations..just thinking..

jmo

J

OMG! You said what I wanted to say about discipline but was too chicken to say it about the laws these days regarding discipline. I am not talking about whipping the kids but I was spanked as a child and I turned out fine. My parents were very loving and kind parents. They never abused me. I did get spanked if I did something bad and believe me I had to push my dad's buttons hard before he would actually spank me. I got threatened with DCFS for swatting my daughter (when she was 3 or 4) on the behind once in Blockbuster. What the woman who threatened to call didn't know was that before Blockbuster, we were in Jewel and my daughter waited until I got all of my stuff onto the belt before running away towards the exit door. She did this twice. I was pretty steamed by the time we got to Blockbuster and she did it AGAIN.

I think the lack of discipline has a lot to do with the lack of control over the kids behavior nowadays.

This story seems to have a bit more to it than what is being reported but we'll just have to wait and see.

[gorbal]

I had a roomate once who tried to kill her dad when she was nine; he had raped her. I also played ping pong once with a guy who killed his father for the same reason. (I spend one school year at funny farm for kids). I can't believe this supposedly nice kid would kill his dad unless something really awful was happening.

People say some kids are evil; in my experience I have seen more evil parent's.

[Amy S.]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/11/08/child.charged.ap/index.html

The family priest knew that the young boy was being taught to hunt.

[Kara]

8 years old...third grade!!! There is something way beyond bad grades, bad attitude or spoiled kid going on here.

Think back to when you were 8 years old.

My best friend moved away when I was 8. She moved from Logan, Utah to Orem, Utah...but in my mind it was Oregon. (same difference...it was a million miles away.)

I cried and didn't understand why I was so sad...I was embarassed by my tears.

Think about it...I was the same age as this child who killed. Do we really believe he understood the ramifications of his actions? Even if he kinda did...should he endure adult punishment for the actions of a childish mind?

[Joan Weiss]

http://www.mlive.com/newsflash/index.ssf?/base/national-112/1226193263148380.xml&storylist=national

Priest: Slain dad had taught boy, 8, to use guns
11/8/2008, 8:36 p.m. EST
By FELICIA FONSECA
The Associated Press

ST. JOHNS, Ariz. (AP) — A man who police believe was shot and killed by his 8-year-old son had consulted a Roman Catholic priest about whether the boy should handle guns and had taught him how to use them, the clergyman said Saturday.

[GentleBreeze]

8 years old...third grade!!! There is something way beyond bad grades, bad attitude or spoiled kid going on here.

Think back to when you were 8 years old.

My best friend moved away when I was 8. She moved from Logan, Utah to Orem, Utah...but in my mind it was Oregon. (same difference...it was a million miles away.)

I cried and didn't understand why I was so sad...I was embarrassed by my tears.

Think about it...I was the same age as this child who killed. Do we really believe he understood the ramifications of his actions? Even if he kinda did...should he endure adult punishment for the actions of a childish mind?

They aren't trying to impose adult punishment. If tried he will be tried in juvie court.

So he could have killed 40 people and he will be out at 18 or 21 at the latest and even if this goes to trial it will be a couple of years or more imo.

The 8 year old child of yesteryear is gone Im afraid........replaced are children that know so much more and aren't as naive as they use to be. They are constantly brainwashed with video games, television shows and sometimes little structure in the home and then too much it seems and the child seems to be enraged if they are expected to have any guidelines set for them.

Who really knows why this boy killed. The motives are as vast as an ocean and just as turbulent.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

http://www.mlive.com/newsflash/index.ssf?/base/national-112/1226193263148380.xml&storylist=national

Priest: Slain dad had taught boy, 8, to use guns
11/8/2008, 8:36 p.m. EST
By FELICIA FONSECA
The Associated Press

ST. JOHNS, Ariz. (AP) — A man who police believe was shot and killed by his 8-year-old son had consulted a Roman Catholic priest about whether the boy should handle guns and had taught him how to use them, the clergyman said Saturday.


Maybe it is because I am from the South and hunting is a very big tradition here but youngsters hunting is not that big of a issue to me. We have about 7 murders per year and it is adult on adult crime.

Our little nephew this morning got a 9 point buck.

My husband has been hunting ever since he was a young boy as many men and women have down here most of their lives.

It is sad that this boy chose to make the hunting and game weapon into a weapon against another human being. I am sure his father had taught him gun safety.

imoo

[Kether]

It seems if the domestic calls involved the boy there would be complaints filed.

From one of the articles you linked.

"The boy had no disciplinary record at school, and there was no record of complaints with Arizona Child Protective Services."


May have been domestic disputes with his ex wife.

imoo

That is what I was thinking. Or maybe domestic disputes with the new wife. :shrug:

[Kether]

http://www.mlive.com/newsflash/index.ssf?/base/national-112/1226193263148380.xml&storylist=national

Priest: Slain dad had taught boy, 8, to use guns
11/8/2008, 8:36 p.m. EST
By FELICIA FONSECA
The Associated Press

ST. JOHNS, Ariz. (AP) — A man who police believe was shot and killed by his 8-year-old son had consulted a Roman Catholic priest about whether the boy should handle guns and had taught him how to use them, the clergyman said Saturday.

My opinions on hunting are somewhat mixed. If it is for food, then I don't have a problem with it. If it is for sport, well, that is another matter. I especially don't like teaching children hunting for sport. It should never be fun to kill something, IMHO. What kind of a message does that send to a child?

[airportwoman]

There's some chatter that this was an accident. One person dead, I could believe that. Not with two.

I'm guessing that something went on that we don't know about just yet.

[justaguy]

according to what i just heard on fox...the cutoff in this state is 8 or above ie he could be tried as an adult. i just can't support that. on the oter hand..there ARE dangerous children. i have thought a compromise wold be tried and sentenced as juvenile but..a team of professionals has to decide whether at 21 to release him or to a hospital for offenders. but i am sure there are all sorts of laws to deal with regarding that.

[Jayne]

They aren't trying to impose adult punishment. If tried he will be tried in juvie court.

So he could have killed 40 people and he will be out at 18 or 21 at the latest and even if this goes to trial it will be a couple of years or more imo.

The 8 year old child of yesteryear is gone Im afraid........replaced are children that know so much more and aren't as naive as they use to be. They are constantly brainwashed with video games, television shows and sometimes little structure in the home and then too much it seems and the child seems to be enraged if they are expected to have any guidelines set for them.

Who really knows why this boy killed. The motives are as vast as an ocean and just as turbulent.

imoo

ITA, GentleBreeze..and BTW..you write so very well! I always enjoy reading your posts...you should write articles/books :)

My 15 yo is in many ways like I was at 15..shy, quiet, and with a refreshing sense of humour, but..as you said, influenced by TV, video games, and doesn't like when the single mom guidelines are repeated when not followed. I'm telling ya, it's tough being a single working mother, long days on the job, child at home several hours before I get home, and having no "back-up" as to rules and discipline. ITG my kid is who he is and isn't a problem..oh, we go through the "teen" thing and wanting to push my buttons, etc. but I'm grateful he's my son. Before I had him, not too much scared me - and I worked in a fairly dangerous job. Now? Much different and I truthfully say that I am scared of many of the kids out there today...to the point that I have, unlike me and me in my prior days, turned my head rather than say a thing when a kid is riding their skateboard on the sidewalk (against the law here) and the one time recently that I did when 3 were kicking up their boards around our cars in the business parking lot, I got looks "to kill". And, the security guard just "stood there" who is supposed to "police" the area. I don't understand kids...and I don't think it's because I'm OLD...because I can get downright silly right along with mine and his friends and have intelligent discussions with them that they appreciate (or so I think).

I wish...ridiculously...that we could turn back the clocks about 40-50 years, in a sense, so my kid and others could grow up like we did..like the one poster said about when s/he was 8. I loved school and looked forward to dinner at home with mom and dad and baby brother after school..the Sunday school picnics..the Rare movie trip to the drive-in..and the restricted times to watch healthy TV shows. And, maybe the worst thing a child/teen might have done was to get caught smoking behind the shed or playing trick-or-treat by leaving a bag of manure on someone's front step or TPing their car - as a joke - not to be malicious.

This little 8 yo...whether or not he knew the consequences of his actions...if it was his "intent", he needs to be prosecuted and rehabilitated...and it breaks my heart to even think about it. Then, again, he may not be all that "innocent" in several ways. I can't remember the case..but it was a young kid..maybe 11? at the time who viciously killed another boy who had been riding his bike..this was years ago...I was mesmerized (maybe not the correct wording), shocked, disturbed, heartstricken over the whole thing..especially for the victim, yes, but the perpetrator as well...What would drive a child to violence? Bad enough that adults can be so vicious and cruel...is it because kids today feel they are already "grown up" and "in control"? Is it the laws in place that protect the kids (I'm not saying there shouldn't be laws to protect children) to the tune of the kids "taking over" their parents?

hammer if I'm asking stupid questions...

jmo
J

[Jayne]

But I think that when kids are raised in a violent - or even verbally abusive homes they lose their childhood very quickly, don't you think? They have to feel grown-up and in-charge sometimes to survive. We may never know all the facts about what this boy's life was like at home - but most families manage to muddle along without having to call the police in, don't they? And why did the father have full custody? - that is unusual. And why would the mother live in another State from her child? Was she afraid of her ex? How often did she see the boy? It always just amazes me when couples break up and one moves away from the child or children.

I don't get it either..or maybe you do and I just don't.

How a parent..mother or dad..would deliberately move away from the custodial parent, and not be close to his/her child? Maybe it is abuse..maybe it was "abandonment"? Hate to even think that...but maybe so...under whatever circumstances were going on there?

Something here/there..is going to come out...why..by "fortune" was the biological mother there..visiting..the Murder happened...she left..then came back when she (?) found out?

If I were the LE or the Defense atty..I'd be checking out Mom.. And, I'm not being mean or accusatory...it can be totally circumstance..or maybe not. [being a mother ... I'd never be far away from my child ... ever ... nor would I "set it up" ... something here..in the fantasy realms of my mind says Mom...should be investigated. And..on the otherhand...I pray for her...as it may be a situation where she had "nothing to do with it" but has a child now...being prosecuted for murder of his father and a "renter".

Billy Holiday..God Bless the Child...

:confused:

j

[Marfa]

I wonder if the boy was on any kind of anti-depressants?!?

[Alibar]

There is something way off about this whole story. This article gives quite a bit more details than any of the others that I have found. Odd that this child has NEVER been in trouble at school. Odd that there has NEVER been any reports to CPS. Odd that the mother of the child was at the home the weekend of the shooting but left soon after to go back to Mississippi.

http://ktar.com/index.php?nid=6&sid=986865

I think the wording is confusing where the article tells of the mother's visit from Mississippi. The way I read it, the mother had returned to Mississippi the weekend prior to the shootings, but, immediately returned to Arizone after the shootings. Had the report been written more clearly there wouldn't be confusion, but, hey, that's how it is in many instances. )))))

[Jayne]

I think the wording is confusing where the article tells of the mother's visit from Mississippi. The way I read it, the mother had returned to Mississippi the weekend prior to the shootings, but, immediately returned to Arizone after the shootings. Had the report been written more clearly there wouldn't be confusion, but, hey, that's how it is in many instances. )))))

I think there is a good chance..that mamma did this..
or had her child do it"

????]

[Kether]

I wonder if the boy was on any kind of anti-depressants?!?

Good question!

[Kether]

I think there is a good chance..that mamma did this..
or had her child do it"

????]

With the information that we have been given right now, any theory is plausible. I think when all the information comes out we will still have trouble grasping the facts surrounding this. The answers are all going to sound hollow and senseless, unless abuse is mentioned. I can't imagine a child doing this without having some real emotions to push him over the edge. Of course, there is always cases without a real reason or cause. Those I find the most disturbing. There had to be warning signs, IMHO.

[BorderCollieMom]

Police in this small eastern Arizona community are looking into the possibility that an 8-year-old boy who is charged with killing his father and another man with a ...
news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081108/ap_on_re_us/child_charged

Abuse possible ?

[maizy]

"Melnick said police got a confession, but Brewer said police overreached in questioning the boy without representation from a parent or attorney and did not advise him of his rights."

Does this bother anyone else but me? Whether this boy is guilty or not, he should have had someone there with him, to look out for his best interest IMO. An 8 yr old can't possibly understand all the implications of what he is saying to the police and who's to say he wasn't coerced?? This "confession" should NOT be allowed in a court of law. I can't believe it's legal to do this with a monor at all, but an 8 yr old? No.

[Joan Weiss]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081110/ap_on_re_us/child_charged

Ariz. town offers support for accused boy's family

ST. JOHNS, Ariz. – People in this small, tight-knit community are reeling from the killing of a well-liked man police say was shot by his own 8-year-old son, and they will likely turn out in droves for his funeral.

"I don't think this church is big enough to handle it all," said the Very Rev. John Paul Sauter of St. John the Baptist Catholic Church.

[Joan Weiss]

"Melnick said police got a confession, but Brewer said police overreached in questioning the boy without representation from a parent or attorney and did not advise him of his rights."

Does this bother anyone else but me? Whether this boy is guilty or not, he should have had someone there with him, to look out for his best interest IMO. An 8 yr old can't possibly understand all the implications of what he is saying to the police and who's to say he wasn't coerced?? This "confession" should NOT be allowed in a court of law. I can't believe it's legal to do this with a monor at all, but an 8 yr old? No.yes, I'm d@mn mad about it. It won't be allowed in court. I think it sounds like one of those towns where LE thinks they can do what they want. imo

[Joan Weiss]

With the information that we have been given right now, any theory is plausible. I think when all the information comes out we will still have trouble grasping the facts surrounding this. The answers are all going to sound hollow and senseless, unless abuse is mentioned. I can't imagine a child doing this without having some real emotions to push him over the edge. Of course, there is always cases without a real reason or cause. Those I find the most disturbing. There had to be warning signs, IMHO.Many cases involving child murderers have no warning signs. That's how these things happen. imo

[Amy S.]

I don't think that LE should have thrown out the "abuse" defense so quickly.

I kind of wonder why you would discuss whether to buy your kid a rifle, with the priest?

Perhaps the step mom was onto something and she knew the little boy shouldn't have gun.

[johnielee333]

This Little Boy Should NOT Be Charged Or Tried As An Adult. He Is A Child. I Will Be So VERY MAD If They Do. JMO

[johnielee333]

"Melnick said police got a confession, but Brewer said police overreached in questioning the boy without representation from a parent or attorney and did not advise him of his rights."

Does this bother anyone else but me? Whether this boy is guilty or not, he should have had someone there with him, to look out for his best interest IMO. An 8 yr old can't possibly understand all the implications of what he is saying to the police and who's to say he wasn't coerced?? This "confession" should NOT be allowed in a court of law. I can't believe it's legal to do this with a monor at all, but an 8 yr old? No.

I Agree With You !

[GentleBreeze]

With the information that we have been given right now, any theory is plausible. I think when all the information comes out we will still have trouble grasping the facts surrounding this. The answers are all going to sound hollow and senseless, unless abuse is mentioned. I can't imagine a child doing this without having some real emotions to push him over the edge. Of course, there is always cases without a real reason or cause. Those I find the most disturbing. There had to be warning signs, IMHO.

I think the entire town has been wounded by these murders. This is a small tight knit community where double homicides just don't happen but once every 20 years, maybe.

I even think the PC is carrying his emotions on his sleeve. Imo, the boy has told them the reason why he killed his father and his dad's co-worker and it has made the PC furious because of the reason the boy gave imo. Any time there are murders like this one where it was done by a minor, checking for abuse is a standard operating procedure. It certainly does not mean that anyone is guilty of that but that it must be confirmed one way or the other to advance their investigation.

I really don't put much faith into what a defense attorney may say. Usually they over embellish and dramatize to swing pity toward the defendant instead of the murder victims.
Until I see the tape or hear the statements made by both the boy and the police questioning, I am not going to take the defense attorney's spin of what happened. I have seen so many of them cry the same song only to see that the officers treated the witness that turned suspect, well.

Now this is just MO but I don't think this boy will be tried as an adult and the PC is just livid as to the heinousness of these crimes and what the boy told him he planned and carried out and the reason he gave for doing so has chilled this PC to the very bone imo. This PC had a peaceful community and now that has been shattered. From what he knows and has uncovered, yes, he thinks he should be tried as an adult but in the end he doesn't get to make that call anyway. I continue to believe this boy will be tried in juvie court and will be free to roam once he is 18, at the latest.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Many cases involving child murderers have no warning signs. That's how these things happen. imo

You are so right about that, Joan. Many of them had no warning signs. They were well liked in school, had no discipline problems, socialized with friends and participated in social groups on campus and made terrific grades.

Some seem to be able to mask what is really lurking in their minds very well. They show only what they want people to see not what really is......

No one can really ever know with any certainty what is going through another person's mind.

imoo

[bkwits]

8 years old...third grade!!! There is something way beyond bad grades, bad attitude or spoiled kid going on here.

Think back to when you were 8 years old.

My best friend moved away when I was 8. She moved from Logan, Utah to Orem, Utah...but in my mind it was Oregon. (same difference...it was a million miles away.)

I cried and didn't understand why I was so sad...I was embarassed by my tears.

Think about it...I was the same age as this child who killed. Do we really believe he understood the ramifications of his actions? Even if he kinda did...should he endure adult punishment for the actions of a childish mind?


Good points, all. He is only 8 years old and his father taught him to shootl JMO:seeya:

[GentleBreeze]

I think there is a good chance..that mamma did this..
or had her child do it"

????]

I must admit I have thought about that.

The timing just seem relevant somehow. I also take it there was no friction between the bio mom and the father who had full custody since the mother did get to see the boy when she came to AZ. It has been said that the father and his present wife waited two years before they got married so it seems to me that he may have had his son with him for quite awhile under his roof.

As she left did she unintentionally say something to her son that got him to thinking if his dad wasn't around he could come to live with her and they would do fun things ALL the time? I wonder if she brought him gifts and took him to fun places while she was there. To a child that would be much more appealing than a home life that is not so exciting concerning the daily routine of raising a child within the home continuously. Did he think if he removed his father that he could have those things all the time?

I think the co-worker was killed because the boy knew he would find the body of the father and the boy was still in the house at the time.

Or did she intentionally feed him this, stressing "well if you didn't have to live with your father, yada/yada/yada and you know he is never going to let you come live with me as long as he is around." (Just an example)

I sure would like to know what reason he gave to the police for planning and doing this. Whatever reason he gave LE seems to be pretty irate about it.

imoo

[lunchlady]

This kid needs a thorough psych evaluation. It will be interesting to see what he's really all about. Abused, insane, psychopathic, in a fantasy world? Maybe he blamed the dad for the mom not being around more or how the dad treated the mom? All supposition on my part.
Even if there aren't any official reports with CPS or other government agencies lots of people had contact with the family and have an opinion on the boy's psychological makeup.
If he is guilty and/or criminally insane then I suppose he could be held until he's 18, but he might then be released and given a chance to fly right. Hard to do after spending your developing years in the juvie. Why did Dad have custody instead of Mom? Some moms aren't great parents, sadly, but that doesn't mean that the kids don't want them around more. Would living with mom after some time in custody be the right thing? Give him more of a chance to grow up normally in society? Or would he hurt his mom too? Maybe Mom doesn't want him after this, especially after all the parenticides in the news lately.

[GentleBreeze]

Good points, all. He is only 8 years old and his father taught him to shoot JMO:seeya:

I don't quite understand that logic. So his father trusted him to use his hunting weapon for what it was intended for and somehow it is now okay that the boy decides to use the hunting weapon to kill two human beings?

First there are millions of people in this country that were taught to use a weapon when hunting game and many of them were taught at a young age. Where is the statistics that hunters of game become murders against human beings?

What about all the other young killers that used the same weapon yet have never even seen a hunting field in their entire lives?

So people that slaughter cattle/sheep/pigs/horses become murderers of human beings? Their methods are much more inflicting and inhumane on the animals that are slaughtered and make their way to grocery markets, glue factories, than the use of a hunting gun.

What message is this sending if he pays no punishment at all for the two lives he not only planned to take but carried through with it? Give them a license to just murder at will? No repercusions.....no record...just a hoorah.......the dad taught him to hunt so therefore he and his coworker just deserved to die???:confused:

My family and I have been hunters for years...even when we were young children and not one of us as ever picked up a weapon of any kind and used it against another human being.


imoo

[momof6]

Excellent Post GentleBreeze!

Where I live, hunting is like the 4th of July. Its a big deal. The first day of hunting season, alot of kids are out of school hunting with their families. Even the teachers are gone hunting. And many kids 8 years and younger are hunting in the midst of lots of guns.

I knew one mother that would not even let her kids have toy guns. Guess what they did when they went outside? They found sticks and pretended they were guns.

[JD1974]

I have always lived with the guns don't kill people, people kill people thinking. I just can't believe they are actually going to try and get this little boy charged as an adult, my 8 year old daughters only thoughts on death are such and such went to see Jesus. No kid that age has the concept of true death, most think you just won't see the person anymore. i won't even get started on how wrong it was for them to question him without some kind of adult rep, in THE state that started the miranda rights no less! Just thought about that too, a kid that young can't even understand his miranda rights yet let's charge him as an adult? What planet are these people from???

[Amy S.]

I am wondering whether the police brought the boy in for questioning or if the boy just started telling them what happened. I don't think that anyone anywhere would interrogate a young boy without an attorney.

LE might not have suspected him until he started opening up and then, they were as surprised as anyone.

I do hope that we find out what was happening in that family, but many times no one else really knows.

Also, I wonder what part the renter played in all of this - because his body was found in a different part of the house.

I know that a .22 is a pretty small rifle. Would you have more than 2 shots in one?

[dinojen]

Was just googling for info.. and ran across this.

ST. JOHNS, Ariz. -- A defense attorney says a judge has issued a gag order in the case of an 8-year-old boy accused of killing his father and another man.

As a result, a planned police news briefing may not happen; however, the court hearing is still scheduled for 3 p.m.

Defense attorney Ron Wood said the order prevents police and attorneys from speaking publicly about the case.


Wood said the attorneys are treating the boy's case "like any other first-degree murder case."

"Our position is that our responsibility -- our duty -- is to take care of (him), whatever the allegations," Wood said. "He is an 8-year-old boy; he is a third-grader ... He's frightened."

Brewer agreed.

"It's evident that he's shaken up, and he's scared," he said. "He played football … he liked soccer. He was yanked out of the comfortable situation, a situation he knew about, and put into a situation that he has no knowledge about. He's hurting.

"He's a scared little kid."

Additionally, the attorneys said nobody has stepped forward to take custody of the boy.

"We've got an 8 year-old client who is sitting in a detention facility who needs someone to take him home, and we haven't found that person," Wood said. "The stepmother didn't want to take custody of him. His mother hasn't taken custody of him.

I find this part really really bizarre...

"At this point in time, no one has come forward and indicated they're willing to take (him)."

http://www.kpho.com/news/17946277/detail.html#-



He's a little boy.. something had to of happened for him to shoot these two men.. I can't believe that with all the people that knew him, school, active in their church.. what made this child do this.. something had to have happened.. really sad too that no one has come forward to look after him or even care what he is going through.. what is up with that mother.. I kind of wondered that anyway, it's unusual for the father to get full custody..

Can't imagine what this little guy is going through...:(

[forensicfan]

To treat an 8 yr old as an adult is just ridiculous and should not be allowed in the law. And this child has no history of discipline problems - so clearly something happened to change that. The mother coming to Arizona and then leaving after the shootings seems very strange to me. What was her interaction with the boy like that weekend? What did they talk about? Did she and he father have an altercation? Did the border abuse the boy and the father didn't back the boy up? What is the father really like when he is at home? These are questions LE needs to find anwers for.

There were, in fact, call(s) to LE for domestic disturbances..... more than one. Violence was apparently part of this child's upbringing. It changes a child. That child can also be changed - perhaps healed in the right environment. :rose:

The mother leaving after the shootings and not returning sounds very incriminating to me!

[bkwits]

I don't quite understand that logic. So his father trusted him to use his hunting weapon for what it was intended for and somehow it is now okay that the boy decides to use the hunting weapon to kill two human beings?

First there are millions of people in this country that were taught to use a weapon when hunting game and many of them were taught at a young age. Where is the statistics that hunters of game become murders against human beings?

What about all the other young killers that used the same weapon yet have never even seen a hunting field in their entire lives?

So people that slaughter cattle/sheep/pigs/horses become murderers of human beings? Their methods are much more inflicting and inhumane on the animals that are slaughtered and make their way to grocery markets, glue factories, than the use of a hunting gun.

What message is this sending if he pays no punishment at all for the two lives he not only planned to take but carried through with it? Give them a license to just murder at will? No repercusions.....no record...just a hoorah.......the dad taught him to hunt so therefore he and his coworker just deserved to die???:confused:

My family and I have been hunters for years...even when we were young children and not one of us as ever picked up a weapon of any kind and used it against another human being.


imoo

Good Lord, you certainly inferred a great deal from my short statement. My son was taught to shoot a rifle when he was about 11 or 12. He taught his son to shoot. My dad has several guns. But the guns were/are locked up and not available to youngsters without adult surpervision. To do otherwise is not being a responsible, parent IMO. An eight year old is two years out of kindergarten, for goodness sakes.

Does anyone know what kind of gun was used?

[Amy S.]

iirc, a .22 rifle was used.

[bkwits]

I have always lived with the guns don't kill people, people kill people thinking. I just can't believe they are actually going to try and get this little boy charged as an adult, my 8 year old daughters only thoughts on death are such and such went to see Jesus. No kid that age has the concept of true death, most think you just won't see the person anymore. i won't even get started on how wrong it was for them to question him without some kind of adult rep, in THE state that started the miranda rights no less! Just thought about that too, a kid that young can't even understand his miranda rights yet let's charge him as an adult? What planet are these people from???


Well said. A child or even an adult can be intimidated into giving a confession, sometimes a false confession. A few years ago in Chicago, the PD bullied two little boys (7 and 9) into confession the murder of a young girl. The PD questioned the boys without anyone else present, even though the grandmother of one boy was outside the room and asking to see the boy. With the details given, I was almost sure the boys didn't do it. The autopsy and lab results came back and she had been raped and semen was present. Needless to say, such young boys do npt produce semen and DNA was no match. IIRC, they later caught the adult male who committed the crime.

In the Riley Fox case, the father confessed to killing his little girl after many, many hours of intensive, grueling testimony. DNA cleared him.

My point is that cops can sometimes get a person or a child to say what the cop wants to hear. JMO

[bkwits]

iirc, a .22 rifle was used.

j

Thank you.

[blue bird]

yes, I'm d@mn mad about it. It won't be allowed in court. I think it sounds like one of those towns where LE thinks they can do what they want. imo

That is AZ for ya! I've been down here for about 6mos & it is a police state if there ever was one.

The woman I work with knows this family and this little boy has been to her house. The dad's uncle is coming to her house; she said he is completely shocked. The wake was this afternoon and she said he said that the family is torn on how they feel about the boy. She said the mom (ex-wife) attended.

[dinojen]

That is AZ for ya! I've been down here for about 6mos & it is a police state if there ever was one.

The woman I work with knows this family and this little boy has been to her house. The dad's uncle is coming to her house; she said he is completely shocked. The wake was this afternoon and she said he said that the family is torn on how they feel about the boy. She said the mom (ex-wife) attended.

Just curious, has anyone at all shown any concern for this child that is only 8 years old and now confined to juvenile hall.. he has to be scared out of his wits.. I know what he did was horrible, but no 8 year old does this with out some reason... IMO... especially if there is no previous evidence of any issues.. something just isn't right....

I would think someone would bet here visiting or fighting to be in contact with that young boy...

[momof6]

I agree that something isn't right with the information that has been given so far.

I also feel like the mom's visit has something to do with this. I was wondering if she talked him into killing his dad. It is easy to twist an 8 year old into thinking whatever you want them to.

[GentleBreeze]

http://www.kpho.com/news/17946277/detail.html

Defense attorney Ron Wood said the order prevents police and attorneys from speaking publicly about the case.

St. Johns resident Vincent Romero and 39-year-old Tim Romans, who was renting a room at the house, were found dead Wednesday afternoon in Romero's home.

Less than 24 hours later, police announced they had solved the case, saying Romero's 8-year-old son confessed to shooting and killing the two men with a .22-caliber gun.

"We solved the crime," St. Johns Police Chief Roy Melnick said. "Now we have to solve the mystery of why."

On NBC's "Today" show Monday morning, Melnick said, "There's no record of any problems in school, no reported abuse."

Wood echoed Melnick's assertion that the boy does not appear to have been abused.

"At this point in time, we haven't seen anything indicating abuse," Wood said. "We haven't heard of anything; we're not aware of anything."

[GentleBreeze]

From the same link above.

Additionally, the attorneys said nobody has stepped forward to take custody of the boy.

"We've got an 8 year-old client who is sitting in a detention facility who needs someone to take him home, and we haven't found that person," Wood said. "The stepmother didn't want to take custody of him. His mother hasn't taken custody of him.

"At this point in time, no one has come forward and indicated they're willing to take (him)."

[dinojen]

From the same link above.

Additionally, the attorneys said nobody has stepped forward to take custody of the boy.

"We've got an 8 year-old client who is sitting in a detention facility who needs someone to take him home, and we haven't found that person," Wood said. "The stepmother didn't want to take custody of him. His mother hasn't taken custody of him.

"At this point in time, no one has come forward and indicated they're willing to take (him)."


Gee and "adult's" wonder why small children have issues...:rolleyes:

[GentleBreeze]

Gee and "adult's" wonder why small children have issues...:rolleyes:

There was about 600 people at the father's funeral. I think many in that town just don't know what to think. They may be fearful of this boy since they know what he is capable of doing. They also may be very upset that he has done this to his father and his father's coworker.

As much as I love children I would be very reluctant to bring him in my home and around my family. He does have family living there though.

And I haven't seen where any Judge has even released him. I think like a defense attorney is supposed to do, he is trying to elicit sympathy for the boy.

But if he is released he will probably be on house arrest and that is a tough responsibility for any family to have to deal with 24/7 and have their own lives too.

imoo

[blue bird]

Just curious, has anyone at all shown any concern for this child that is only 8 years old and now confined to juvenile hall.. he has to be scared out of his wits.. I know what he did was horrible, but no 8 year old does this with out some reason... IMO... especially if there is no previous evidence of any issues.. something just isn't right....

I would think someone would bet here visiting or fighting to be in contact with that young boy...

She said that the boy is allowed contact with his family. I will find out more tomorrow. the great uncle the last I heard was conflicted but felt that his nephew, the dead father, could not have been abusing the boy but then why have the police responded to domestic calls recently?

[Jayne]

There was about 600 people at the father's funeral. I think many in that town just don't know what to think. They may be fearful of this boy since they know what he is capable of doing. They also may be very upset that he has done this to his father and his father's coworker.

As much as I love children I would be very reluctant to bring him in my home and around my family. He does have family living there though.

And I haven't seen where any Judge has even released him. I think like a defense attorney is supposed to do, he is trying to elicit sympathy for the boy.

But if he is released he will probably be on house arrest and that is a tough responsibility for any family to have to deal with 24/7 and have their own lives too.

imoo

I agree with you.

My heart breaks for this child. But where is the MOTHER? and the Step mother?

Tough deal..YES..but if he has a PARENT...?

Something really doesn't sit right here..something is totally wrong. What parent or step parent would NOT step in and help this child or at least try to?

He may be the demon from Hell...but I doubt it..and yet I do understand how kids do what they do..and none of use seem to be able to understand or comprehend it. And an 8 yo? Not like he was a gang member.. And I know..I shouldn't say that..but he wasn't. I guess we have to wait and see what comes up with "home life"..as if anything will come up..and if it really matters.

Where is the family? I think they're running scared..hoping the child will take the flack.. I really do...guess I'm being dramatic..but I just can't imagine a mother coming in to embrace and help her child..especially if she was NOT the custodial parent..was there..just before it happened..then came back.

There is NO way on earth or otherwise, I'd allow my child to be in custody..without my being there with him or getting him out.

I just don't get it...or maybe I do? There is parental involvement here...I sense it..children want to please their parents..mostly..some don't....

I'm a single mom and would never want to be in her position..but I think something is really "iffy" here about her coming in..leaving...then coming back.

Perry Mason, perhaps? in the back of my mind.

This child..no matter what..needs intervention..and if it's proven that he did this ..with no provocation from abuse or from mom or anyone else...just "internal"..then FIX it..as if it can ever be fixed?

Society and family values and the laws concerning those things are entirely screwed up.

JMO

J

[emdragon]

"Melnick said police got a confession, but Brewer said police overreached in questioning the boy without representation from a parent or attorney and did not advise him of his rights."

Does this bother anyone else but me? Whether this boy is guilty or not, he should have had someone there with him, to look out for his best interest IMO. An 8 yr old can't possibly understand all the implications of what he is saying to the police and who's to say he wasn't coerced?? This "confession" should NOT be allowed in a court of law. I can't believe it's legal to do this with a monor at all, but an 8 yr old? No.

Me it bothers me beyond words.

No child should be interviewed by LE without either a Lawyer,Parent or GAL. And by child I mean any under aged kid.

And sorry but a civilized society does treat an 8 yr old as an adult.

[dinojen]

There was about 600 people at the father's funeral. I think many in that town just don't know what to think. They may be fearful of this boy since they know what he is capable of doing. They also may be very upset that he has done this to his father and his father's coworker.

As much as I love children I would be very reluctant to bring him in my home and around my family. He does have family living there though.

And I haven't seen where any Judge has even released him. I think like a defense attorney is supposed to do, he is trying to elicit sympathy for the boy.

But if he is released he will probably be on house arrest and that is a tough responsibility for any family to have to deal with 24/7 and have their own lives too.

imoo

Oh I didn't mean release him to go home... but I would think someone in relation to him would of been to the hall to see him, talk to him.. let him know they care about him. No 8 year old does something like this that has not shown an mental issues or bad behavior.. the whole thing is just bizarre.

My Mom always says, you never know what goes on behind closed doors...:shrug: Maybe life wasn't as idyllic as everyone thought.. guess we will just have to wait to see what unfolds.

I just think this little boy needs some support while he sits in JH.. and know he still has people that love and care about him..

Just sad all the way around.

[dinojen]

Just read this on my comcast news page..


Police said Romero's son planned and methodically carried out the killings, and confessed. Authorities would not discuss specifics of the confession. The boy has been charged as a juvenile with two counts of murder.

The boy appeared in handcuffs at a court hearing Monday and sat restlessly next to his mother. Some people in the audience cried as he entered. His mother declined to comment as she left the courthouse.

Judge Michael Roca gave defense attorneys until Friday to either find an expert to evaluate the boy's competency or to agree to one suggested by the prosecutors.



So I guess the mother was with him when he appeared in court yesterday.. I don't know something bothers me about handcuffs on a eight year old... I know he is accused of murdering two people, but tell me a eight year old is going to overtake some adult baliff's.

This part bothers me too..

Police said Romero's son planned and methodically carried out the killings, and confessed.

I don't know any eight year olds that could plan and methodically plot this out... I think this PC is getting a litte over zealous.. sounds like he is dealing with a much older suspect.. Something just isn't right.. IMO

http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-national/20081110/Child.Charged/

[VC2]

Was just googling for info.. and ran across this.

ST. JOHNS, Ariz. -- A defense attorney says a judge has issued a gag order in the case of an 8-year-old boy accused of killing his father and another man.

As a result, a planned police news briefing may not happen; however, the court hearing is still scheduled for 3 p.m.

Defense attorney Ron Wood said the order prevents police and attorneys from speaking publicly about the case.


Wood said the attorneys are treating the boy's case "like any other first-degree murder case."

"Our position is that our responsibility -- our duty -- is to take care of (him), whatever the allegations," Wood said. "He is an 8-year-old boy; he is a third-grader ... He's frightened."

Brewer agreed.

"It's evident that he's shaken up, and he's scared," he said. "He played football … he liked soccer. He was yanked out of the comfortable situation, a situation he knew about, and put into a situation that he has no knowledge about. He's hurting.

"He's a scared little kid."

Additionally, the attorneys said nobody has stepped forward to take custody of the boy.

"We've got an 8 year-old client who is sitting in a detention facility who needs someone to take him home, and we haven't found that person," Wood said. "The stepmother didn't want to take custody of him. His mother hasn't taken custody of him.

I find this part really really bizarre...

"At this point in time, no one has come forward and indicated they're willing to take (him)."

http://www.kpho.com/news/17946277/detail.html#-



He's a little boy.. something had to of happened for him to shoot these two men.. I can't believe that with all the people that knew him, school, active in their church.. what made this child do this.. something had to have happened.. really sad too that no one has come forward to look after him or even care what he is going through.. what is up with that mother.. I kind of wondered that anyway, it's unusual for the father to get full custody..

Can't imagine what this little guy is going through...:(

ITA dino! I am appalled they want to try him as an adult. think of the difference between an 8 year old and an 18 year old, if anyone imagines this child really knew what he was doing or can't be helped with therapy then im shocked. There are adults who have murdered and turned their lives around, surely a child should get the chance

that no one wants custody? :( i get the feeling something was truly wrong at home. Abuse is the easiest answer, doesn't mean sexual necessarily.
Something stinks. Not saying the dad and coworker deserved it. Even though i do have a tiny thought of sexual abuse. Or as someone said, mom convincing son to do it.

imo

[dinojen]

The article states he was charged as a "juvenile" thank god.. There is a gag order on this case now as of yesterday so how much more we will hear is :shrug:

At least they used good judgement in charging him as a juvenile, the adult charge was ridiculous IMO.

[GentleBreeze]

I agree with you.

My heart breaks for this child. But where is the MOTHER? and the Step mother?

Tough deal..YES..but if he has a PARENT...?

Something really doesn't sit right here..something is totally wrong. What parent or step parent would NOT step in and help this child or at least try to?

He may be the demon from Hell...but I doubt it..and yet I do understand how kids do what they do..and none of use seem to be able to understand or comprehend it. And an 8 yo? Not like he was a gang member.. And I know..I shouldn't say that..but he wasn't. I guess we have to wait and see what comes up with "home life"..as if anything will come up..and if it really matters.

Where is the family? I think they're running scared..hoping the child will take the flack.. I really do...guess I'm being dramatic..but I just can't imagine a mother coming in to embrace and help her child..especially if she was NOT the custodial parent..was there..just before it happened..then came back.

There is NO way on earth or otherwise, I'd allow my child to be in custody..without my being there with him or getting him out.

I just don't get it...or maybe I do? There is parental involvement here...I sense it..children want to please their parents..mostly..some don't....

I'm a single mom and would never want to be in her position..but I think something is really "iffy" here about her coming in..leaving...then coming back.

Perry Mason, perhaps? in the back of my mind.

This child..no matter what..needs intervention..and if it's proven that he did this ..with no provocation from abuse or from mom or anyone else...just "internal"..then FIX it..as if it can ever be fixed?

Society and family values and the laws concerning those things are entirely screwed up.

JMO

J

Good Morning, Jayne!

Well we know now that his mother was sitting beside him when he was in the hearing yesterday so that makes all of this even stranger, imo.

I can certainly understand the step-mother not wanting to take him. He just murdered her husband. She sure wouldn't want him back in their home. That I do understand.

There has to be a reason why his bio mother is not offering. Maybe if she tried the Judge would delve into her background to see if she was fit to have custody and she knows he will find out, she is not.

I don't think there was abuse done to the boy. It is Tuesday and this happened last Wednesday. In a town so small LE would have some indicators of that by now, if true and Melnick and the boy's own attorney said they have uncovered nothing that points to him being abused.

I do think somehow the "trigger" to his plan was the mother's visit.

I also see that the Judge is going to try these murder charges in juvenile court. I never believed they would try him in adult court. Whatever happens.......lives are shattered beyond repair. If he is treated extensively in the juvenile system then maybe he can come to terms with why he did such a cruel and cold thing. To advance to full mental health he must come to terms with what he did and realize just how terribly wrong it was.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/11/us/11child.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

Excerpts:

An 8-year-old Arizona boy charged with premeditated murder in the deaths of his father and another man shot each victim at least four times with a .22-caliber rifle, methodically stopping and reloading as he killed them, prosecutors said Monday.

Prosecutors said the murder weapon was a single-action .22-caliber hunting rifle that requires reloading before each shot. “He had to eject the shell from the rifle and put in a new shell each time he fired,” Mr. Carlyon said.

Mr. Romans was outside the house talking on his cellphone to his wife, Mr. Carlyon said, when he heard some commotion inside. Mr. Carlyon said the rifle produced only a “muffled, soft popping” sound, making it likely that Mr. Romans had no idea what had happened inside. Mr. Carlyon said Mr. Romans had told his wife that the boy was calling for him. He was on the porch on his way into the house when he was shot in the chest and head, the authorities said.

[dinojen]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/11/us/11child.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

Excerpts:

An 8-year-old Arizona boy charged with premeditated murder in the deaths of his father and another man shot each victim at least four times with a .22-caliber rifle, methodically stopping and reloading as he killed them, prosecutors said Monday.

Prosecutors said the murder weapon was a single-action .22-caliber hunting rifle that requires reloading before each shot. “He had to eject the shell from the rifle and put in a new shell each time he fired,” Mr. Carlyon said.

Mr. Romans was outside the house talking on his cellphone to his wife, Mr. Carlyon said, when he heard some commotion inside. Mr. Carlyon said the rifle produced only a “muffled, soft popping” sound, making it likely that Mr. Romans had no idea what had happened inside. Mr. Carlyon said Mr. Romans had told his wife that the boy was calling for him. He was on the porch on his way into the house when he was shot in the chest and head, the authorities said.

From your link.. and thanks.. was interesting... not sure how much more we will hear being the judge put a gag order out on this case, but as we all know here.. from all the cases we have followed together.. there are always leaks..

Found this part interesting..

From 1976 to 2005, there were 62 cases in the United States in which a 7- or 8-year-old was arrested on murder charges, said Dr. Heide, who analyzed F.B.I. data. Only two of those cases involved a child killing a parent. Children younger than 7 who commit killings are not charged in most states.

In cases in which a child kills a parent, the child is typically a teenager and usually acts for one of three reasons, psychologists say. Most often, the child has suffered years of physical or sexual abuse. Others kill because of severe mental illness. And some have extreme antisocial or psychopathic tendencies — a child who is used to getting his way and kills out of anger.

“The wrinkle here,” Dr. Heide said, “is that this boy is so young, it could possibly be immaturity and impulsivity.” In children as young as 8, parts of the brain that weigh decisions and consequences are so underdeveloped that a child might not understand the finality of death.


For a child who had no issues according to friends and school instructors... I am really curious as what motivated him to do this.. or if he even knows why... just a very sad situation and something he's going to have to live with all his life..

[JD1974]

I agree that something isn't right with the information that has been given so far.

I also feel like the mom's visit has something to do with this. I was wondering if she talked him into killing his dad. It is easy to twist an 8 year old into thinking whatever you want them to.


That really bothers me also, seems everything was fine, mom shows up and the little boy kills his dad?? I don't understand it. It just sounds somewhat strange to me. You can make an 8 year old do almost anything without even trying to, a comment here or there, like just an example the boy is upset his mom is leaving, she says that it is dads fault that he only gets to see her so often, boy thinks ok dad is an obstacle for me being with my mom. Now I see the mom won't take custody of him WTH??? That right there just deepens my suspicions about this woman, I know that is a horrible thing to say but I can't help but feel she is trying to distance herself as far away from her son as possible because she could have something to do with it.

[JD1974]

From your link.. and thanks.. was interesting... not sure how much more we will hear being the judge put a gag order out on this case, but as we all know here.. from all the cases we have followed together.. there are always leaks..

Found this part interesting..

From 1976 to 2005, there were 62 cases in the United States in which a 7- or 8-year-old was arrested on murder charges, said Dr. Heide, who analyzed F.B.I. data. Only two of those cases involved a child killing a parent. Children younger than 7 who commit killings are not charged in most states.

In cases in which a child kills a parent, the child is typically a teenager and usually acts for one of three reasons, psychologists say. Most often, the child has suffered years of physical or sexual abuse. Others kill because of severe mental illness. And some have extreme antisocial or psychopathic tendencies — a child who is used to getting his way and kills out of anger.

“The wrinkle here,” Dr. Heide said, “is that this boy is so young, it could possibly be immaturity and impulsivity.” In children as young as 8, parts of the brain that weigh decisions and consequences are so underdeveloped that a child might not understand the finality of death.


For a child who had no issues according to friends and school instructors... I am really curious as what motivated him to do this.. or if he even knows why... just a very sad situation and something he's going to have to live with all his life..

Exactly what I said about my 8 year old, most 8 year olds cannot fathom death the way we do. When they hear about a death, most little ones just think oh I won't see him/her or he/she went to see Jesus, something along those lines. I don't think they can understand that it is final, there is no coming back..ever. Sad situation all around.

[GentleBreeze]

From this article discussing what was said in the hearing it seems he murdered his dad because he was angry with his dad being angry with him when he did not bring his paperwork home from school (probably had been having a repeated problem with that issue imo) and the dad told the stepmother to spank him 5 swats on the butt.

So once again it seems if some children are disciplined in any manner they get very angry.

http://www.wmicentral.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20190155&BRD=2264&PAG=461&dept_id=505965&rfi=6


"Did you ask him if he might have been mad at his dad," asked Carlyon. Neckel said the boy admitted he was mad at his dad. "He said that the evening before, he didn't bring some papers home from school and his dad was very angry and had (the boy's) stepmother spank him five swats."
End of Quote.

LE knew instantly this was a premeditated crime just by having the weapon. It was a single shot rifle meaning he had to reload and put another bullet in each time he fired.

The thought that he coaxed Mr. Romans to come inside telling him he needed him is chilling. When Mr. Romans went to him he fired 4 times murdering him before he could even get in the door.

imoo

[Jayne]

Interesting that each victim was shot 4 times. Each time required a re-load. Eight times he had to put a bullet in the .22 rifle.

A child who has hunted and killed prairie dogs has a much clearer understanding of death than a typical urban kid. We aren't talking about violent movies or video games here.


I really hate to post this..but I'm going to.

Whether than child hunted prairie dogs or not..doesn't mean he had any more understand than how to Load a Rifle..and HOW QUICKLY to do it.

I was taught..pretty much at his age..how to handle a rifle, shotgun and handgun..NOT TO KILL...to have a real learning experience..and to help hunt for food..that's what we did...every winter was pretty sparce..with income..and food..

WHY...he would do this..totally is beyond my understanding...unless that is what he was TAUGHT to do..and he just "applied it" to the situation..

makes me so sad..

and I'd hate to meet mom or step mom anywhere...as I'd be up on charges..for telling them where they could/should go...

I could be adopting Satan...but I'd take this kid..as best I could..and figure out what happened..and try to "fix" him.

I do NOT think it was him...not at all...I think his biological mother did it..framed the kid..took off...

He loved his mom so much and wanted to be with her..he'd never say a thing...he'd essentially "BE" his mother...

drama..I know..sorry

jmo

J

[lunchlady]

Interesting that each victim was shot 4 times. Each time required a re-load. Eight times he had to put a bullet in the .22 rifle.

A child who has hunted and killed prairie dogs has a much clearer understanding of death than a typical urban kid. We aren't talking about violent movies or video games here.

Where I was a kid most of the boys had BB guns and then progressively bigger guns as they grew up. They definitely were out shooting stuff- squirrels, birds, windows, cats- and this wasn't much discouraged that I could tell- it was the "boys will be boys" attitude. One boy was blind in one eye from a BB gun. Young bullies pointed them at other kids regularly. Not many people in town kept a cat because they didn't last. Most houses and even cars had a BB hole in a window somewhere. And most of those houses also had real guns for the grownups. One of my friends' father kept a loaded revolver on his mantel, totally out on the open. Guess he wanted to have it ready.
In spite of this level of access to firearms there wasn't much gun-related violence in the 14 years I lived there. One man killed himself, deer were poached. Most of the problem was that people waved them around when they were mad which was pretty intimidating.

My point in this post is that what this boy did is pretty creepy. Even if his mother was involved somehow he was the one who loaded and fired 8 times. He must have done a good job with the first shot on both men, to have the leisure to reload 3 more times and fire on each man. That all makes me feel like he understood what he was doing pretty well. At 8 he probably didn't understand the likely consequences for himself, but I think he understood that he was permanently killing those men.
Some people are wired differently. If you work in the criminal justice system or the mental health system it becomes pretty clear. I do believe in the chance for redemption and rehabilitation, but some people remain dangerous to society in spite of all efforts.
I hope this boy is able to feel remorse and has the desire to be a good citizen. I think its possible for him to be in society, but I wouldn't be willing to have him in my home. :eek:

[GentleBreeze]

I realize that it is much harder to blame a child for their own acts. It is much easier to divert the blame to another party than have to wrestle with the fact that they and they alone are responsible for their own acts. That they did premeditate and plan the results. Because if we can blame a certain individual then we don't have to face that children can just kill because they became angry. To have to face those thought puts such fear in parents and they would rather not go there imo.

The mother left and returned to MS before these murders occurred so she was not there when the crimes went down.

I think what we have here is a child that was furious with his dad because he was disciplined for his own shortcomings. Just like other parents discipline their own child and have the same guidelines. It does make me wonder if the dad before this pretty much gave into the boy and did not swat him much during his lifetime. The boy may have been use to being spoiled. He would be very use to his stepmother by then since the Priest said they waited two years before they married. His anger was not directed toward her or he would have laid in wait and murdered her too when she came home.

I do think being angry was the reason he did this even though he only got "swats" and with LE and his own attorney stating as late as Monday of this week that they have not uncovered any abuse, it shows me, no marks were even left on his body for when LE found out about that they would have immediately checked his body for such and imo they did and found absolutely none. Hence their own statements made this week of no abuse uncovered.

The methodical way he carried out his murders is the most chilling part. Knowing that each time he loaded his weapon and fired he had to remove the spent casing and load another and keep doing that eight times is just bone chilling. There is no doubt imo, he wanted them both dead and they were.

Knowing how he cunningly coaxed the coworker to come into the home where he lay in wait planning his death is mind boggling. I think he killed the coworker because when Mr. Romans went back inside he would see the murdered body of Mr. Romero. The boy was extremely aware of leaving no witnesses behind. I think we will find this boy is probably above average intelligence.

I certainly don't fault the stepmother for not stepping up to gain custody. Why would she? This boy just killed her husband that by all accounts she and everyone else loved and he did so right in her home and left her with all the blood, gore and horrific memories.

I wonder if his own bio mother is fearful of him now and is afraid to have him in her own home. She may be thinking "what if I have to get onto him about something.......how would he react to me?" (example)

I doubt anyone will step forward to gain custody of him and his attorneys most likely will be given control over what happens to him. From what I understand the Judge has remanded him to juvenile detention system until he faces trial.

There isn't a statistic in the world that shows hunters of wild game become murderers of human beings. There are thousands of murders each year in this country committed with firearms, both handguns and long guns and so many of these murderers that commit these crimes have never even seen a hunting area in their entire lives.



imoo

[airportwoman]

GentleBreeze, just because he isn't covered with bruises doesn't mean he wasn't abused. The worst abuse does not leave marks or scars.

Again, we just don't know the whole story here.

A "swat" could mean anything from a little painless tap to let the child know you mean business, to hammer or worse.

[GentleBreeze]

Interesting that each victim was shot 4 times. Each time required a re-load. Eight times he had to put a bullet in the .22 rifle.

A child who has hunted and killed prairie dogs has a much clearer understanding of death than a typical urban kid. We aren't talking about violent movies or video games here.

Exactly. He knew full well they weren't ever going to get up. That is why he shot them. He wanted them dead and they were.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

GentleBreeze, just because he isn't covered with bruises doesn't mean he wasn't abused. The worst abuse does not leave marks or scars.

Again, we just don't know the whole story here.

A "swat" could mean anything from a little painless tap to let the child know you mean business, to hammer or worse.

But what we do know is he told them this on Wednesday night when it happened last week. If it was a hammer then the defense attorney or Melnick would NOT be stating THIS Monday that no abuse has been uncovered.

[Heidi J.]

I agree with you gentle Breeze. I wouldn't take that child in either. I have compassion for all involved but I also believe that some people are just bad - and, yes, that includes a child. I was a foster mom for awhile and I had one little girl - cute as a button - but huge trouble. She was 6 and after a short time I realized that I couldn't leave her alone for a minute, she was always up to something that was no good. I couldn't turn my back. I had to give her back because it was just too difficult. I'm not a psychiatrist, I'm not a doctor, I'm not a mind reader. I'm a mom and something was seriously wrong with this kid. Yes, she was abused and the daughter of a crack head. However, I wasn't willing to have my house burned down, my car damaged or my other daughter harmed. Thank god there were no guns around...

Herlock

I agree herlock. I am glad you thought it out before sending her back. She sounds like she needed alot more help then you could give her.

I think it great you are a foster mom.

GB, I have agreed with you from the beginning.

Some kids have issues, this childs led to him murdering his father and the friend. Sad..

JMO

[blue bird]

I realize that it is much harder to blame a child for their own acts. It is much easier to divert the blame to another party than have to wrestle with the fact that they and they alone are responsible for their own acts. That they did premeditate and plan the results. Because if we can blame a certain individual then we don't have to face that children can just kill because they became angry. To have to face those thought puts such fear in parents and they would rather not go there imo.

The mother left and returned to MS before these murders occurred so she was not there when the crimes went down.

I think what we have here is a child that was furious with his dad because he was disciplined for his own shortcomings. Just like other parents discipline their own child and have the same guidelines. It does make me wonder if the dad before this pretty much gave into the boy and did not swat him much during his lifetime. The boy may have been use to being spoiled. He would be very use to his stepmother by then since the Priest said they waited two years before they married. His anger was not directed toward her or he would have laid in wait and murdered her too when she came home.

I do think being angry was the reason he did this even though he only got "swats" and with LE and his own attorney stating as late as Monday of this week that they have not uncovered any abuse, it shows me, no marks were even left on his body for when LE found out about that they would have immediately checked his body for such and imo they did and found absolutely none. Hence their own statements made this week of no abuse uncovered.

The methodical way he carried out his murders is the most chilling part. Knowing that each time he loaded his weapon and fired he had to remove the spent casing and load another and keep doing that eight times is just bone chilling. There is no doubt imo, he wanted them both dead and they were.

Knowing how he cunningly coaxed the coworker to come into the home where he lay in wait planning his death is mind boggling. I think he killed the coworker because when Mr. Romans went back inside he would see the murdered body of Mr. Romero. The boy was extremely aware of leaving no witnesses behind. I think we will find this boy is probably above average intelligence.

I certainly don't fault the stepmother for not stepping up to gain custody. Why would she? This boy just killed her husband that by all accounts she and everyone else loved and he did so right in her home and left her with all the blood, gore and horrific memories.

I wonder if his own bio mother is fearful of him now and is afraid to have him in her own home. She may be thinking "what if I have to get onto him about something.......how would he react to me?" (example)

I doubt anyone will step forward to gain custody of him and his attorneys most likely will be given control over what happens to him. From what I understand the Judge has remanded him to juvenile detention system until he faces trial.

There isn't a statistic in the world that shows hunters of wild game become murderers of human beings. There are thousands of murders each year in this country committed with firearms, both handguns and long guns and so many of these murderers that commit these crimes have never even seen a hunting area in their entire lives.



imoo

Do you have any thoughts as to the police calls to the house?

Also, why is the step-mother spanking him? That just sounded weird to me that he told the step mom to do it.

[tv4me]

Could it just be that this child might be criminally insane? The previous police visits, have they said what they were about? I asking because my so's niece had emotional problems as a child and the police were called a couples of times by neighbors because she would have screaming tantrums, lock herself in the bathroom and not stop. She was six at the time. Maybe the police visits were about the boy's behavior?

I read that the men were well liked by the community. The funeral serives were standing room only.

I'm not sure this boy was abused. I think we're going to find out that he is very troubled. So far no one has said anything, but I think we might find out he was the type of kid who always had to have things go his way or else and was a sore loser. Was he prone to tantrums? It would interesting to find out if any of his classmates come out and say he bullied them.

[GentleBreeze]

I think this shows why the bio mother tries to put down the existing stepmother. She seemed very lacking when it came to her own child's needs. I can see how she would be intimidated if the new stepmom was trying to raise the child in a loving nurturing parental environment.

http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/stories/StJohns-local-news-111108-divorce-details-2x-murde.1a37a0964.html

Now 3TV sheds new light on the love this father had for his little boy. The papers show that the father fought in court to keep custody of his son. He also fought to make sure his son went to church and was not exposed to things like second-hand smoke. He writes that his son was a “preemie” with underdeveloped lungs and every time he visits his mom he comes home hacking.

Romero also writes about how she allowed a total stranger to blow smoke in his ear thinking it would cure an undiagnosed ear ache and he writes that for a year and a half his ex-wife lived in Mississippi and saw her son a total of about two weeks.

Romero complains she lived in a travel trailer without plumbing and she "shacked up" with her boyfriend in Springerville. The papers are dated two years ago but since the deadly shooting six days ago the mother has been at her son's side in St. Johns, a tiny rural eastern Arizona town taken by storm.

One resident says, "My heart breaks for the child because I don't believe that he realized the consequences of his actions and he probably took the life of maybe somebody who loved him most and most dearly."

[GentleBreeze]

Do you have any thoughts as to the police calls to the house?

Also, why is the step-mother spanking him? That just sounded weird to me that he told the step mom to do it.

All I know the complaints couldn't have been directed toward the boy or CPS would have been notified and have a complaint on record and they don't.

It may have been a dispute between him and his ex-wife. I think there was some major differences there on what they thought their responsibilities were in raising him like he should be.

I really don't find that odd. Maybe he was too upset at the time and felt the step mom would not swat him as hard. Maybe he was trying to convey that both of his parents in the home that he was being raised in will mete out discipline just as they may make individual decisions concerning their child when it comes to other things.

I don't really find that odd. When I married my husband 25 years ago I had three children and he had two. We both became the parents of all, not just one of us. It was never a "his child" or "my child" responsibility even when it came to disciplining one of them or rewarding them. It showed them that we were a family unit and taught them inclusiveness and they knew they all would all be treated equally by both parents in the home.

imoo

[dinojen]

I think this shows why the bio mother tries to put down the existing stepmother. She seemed very lacking when it came to her own child's needs. I can see how she would be intimidated if the new stepmom was trying to raise the child in a loving nurturing parental environment.

http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/stories/StJohns-local-news-111108-divorce-details-2x-murde.1a37a0964.html

Now 3TV sheds new light on the love this father had for his little boy. The papers show that the father fought in court to keep custody of his son. He also fought to make sure his son went to church and was not exposed to things like second-hand smoke. He writes that his son was a “preemie” with underdeveloped lungs and every time he visits his mom he comes home hacking.

Romero also writes about how she allowed a total stranger to blow smoke in his ear thinking it would cure an undiagnosed ear ache and he writes that for a year and a half his ex-wife lived in Mississippi and saw her son a total of about two weeks.

Romero complains she lived in a travel trailer without plumbing and she "shacked up" with her boyfriend in Springerville. The papers are dated two years ago but since the deadly shooting six days ago the mother has been at her son's side in St. Johns, a tiny rural eastern Arizona town taken by storm.

One resident says, "My heart breaks for the child because I don't believe that he realized the consequences of his actions and he probably took the life of maybe somebody who loved him most and most dearly."

Morning...:seeya:

Thanks for the great read....
I feel bad for the kid, I don't know though how much he realized what his actions have caused, I'm sure he knows that what he did was wrong and that it can't be changed as in giving him his dad back or his dad's friend... it just boggles my mind what would provoke what seems to be a pretty well rounded and brought up kid to do something as drastic as this.

I had issues with the bio mom from day one when I realized the Dad had full custody.. it's very unusual for the Dad usually to get that.. unless there are issues with the mother. Doesn't sound like she had very maternal emotions running through her veins.

Is this boy still in JH... hopefully they didn't release him to her care...

[dinojen]

Interesting comments also posted at that link. Particularly the one about how this 8 year old was brought into the court room... hancuffed at the waist and cuffed at his ankles... think that is going a little to the extreme with a child.

Not defending his actions, but I think the PC and the court needs to take in to consideration his age and his mentality..

The whole this is just tragic with exception of maybe the bio mom's behavior...

All JMHO

[GentleBreeze]

Morning...:seeya:

Thanks for the great read....
I feel bad for the kid, I don't know though how much he realized what his actions have caused, I'm sure he knows that what he did was wrong and that it can't be changed as in giving him his dad back or his dad's friend... it just boggles my mind what would provoke what seems to be a pretty well rounded and brought up kid to do something as drastic as this.

I had issues with the bio mom from day one when I realized the Dad had full custody.. it's very unusual for the Dad usually to get that.. unless there are issues with the mother. Doesn't sound like she had very maternal emotions running through her veins.

Is this boy still in JH... hopefully they didn't release him to her care...

Morning, Jen!

I think her demons are coming back to haunt her and she is trying to displace that guilt onto the shoulders of Tiffany by trying to rewrite history.

The last I heard no one has asked for custody of him. So as far as I know he is still in juvenile detention. He does have a large family unit living there though as I understand.

imoo:seeya:

[GentleBreeze]

Interesting comments also posted at that link. Particularly the one about how this 8 year old was brought into the court room... handcuffed at the waist and cuffed at his ankles... think that is going a little to the extreme with a child.

Not defending his actions, but I think the PC and the court needs to take in to consideration his age and his mentality..

The whole this is just tragic with exception of maybe the bio mom's behavior...

All JMHO

I understand why we find that shocking but I also understand that LE cannot deviate from their standards. If they do so for him then they will open up a can of worms for others. By law the defendant must be handcuffed. SOP.

imoo

[dinojen]

I understand why we find that shocking but I also understand that LE cannot deviate from their standards. If they do so for him then they will open up a can of worms for others. By law the defendant must be handcuffed. SOP.

imoo

Oh I fully understand there are rules and they need to be abided by.. just hard to imagine a young child being treated like that.. just me I guess. Actually I'm surprised they even brought him into the court room, I would think juvenile cases especially his age would be handled differently..

Sure hope he is being cared for and someone else besides his off again on again mother is in contact with him...

[JD1974]

Do you have any thoughts as to the police calls to the house?

Also, why is the step-mother spanking him? That just sounded weird to me that he told the step mom to do it.



I see this is based on his confession which I think is so illegal it infuriates me, no adult in a position of authority like that should be able to question a child, 8 years old. Adults get confused when questioned by police, even INNOCENT ones, imagine what happens when they turn it on for an 8 year old child.

[GentleBreeze]

I see this is based on his confession which I think is so illegal it infuriates me, no adult in a position of authority like that should be able to question a child, 8 years old. Adults get confused when questioned by police, even INNOCENT ones, imagine what happens when they turn it on for an 8 year old child.

I don't fault the police. 90% if their interview with him they thought he was a victim that witnessed these horrific murders. It was only at the tail end that they began to see that he indeed was the murderer.

But imo they wont even need his confession for a conviction. They were there within minutes after the shooting and secured the crime scene so the evidence will show he did this imo.

imoo

[luna24]

This article is from the New York Times today (11-13-08). Evidently the mother is also baffled by her son's murders:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/13/us/13child.html?th&emc=th

She even brings up the possibility of abuse. On the other hand, I actually could relate to the stepmother's alleged statement that "what happens in this house stays in this house" in regard to the boy telling his mom about things happening in dad's house with his new wife. Many times it's a volatile situation when families split and a thoughtless remark can be fuel in an already bad situation. (Speaking from experience! LOL)

Herlock

Interesting article..

I'm not really sure what to think on this case..just tragic all the way around.

When I first read that the mother was just there for a visit, went home to MS, and then the murders happened, I thought maybe the son was upset with the father for remarrying and he had wished the mother didn't have to leave...especially since one of the articles said they just married in September.

I didn't like the fact that the stepmother sat by the child while he talked to his mother on the phone...

I also didn't like reading that the father had the stepmother do the spanking especially after they were just married.

I realize the stepmother is upset with the child for killing her husband but if there was a healthy relationship with her and the child, i would think she would at least visit him to ask him what happened, no?

Granted, the biological mom doesn't seem like Mother of the Year and a bit flaky too...

What a sad situation all the way around...

[Heidi J.]

Interesting article..

I'm not really sure what to think on this case..just tragic all the way around.

When I first read that the mother was just there for a visit, went home to MS, and then the murders happened, I thought maybe the son was upset with the father for remarrying and he had wished the mother didn't have to leave...especially since one of the articles said they just married in September.

I didn't like the fact that the stepmother sat by the child while he talked to his mother on the phone...

I also didn't like reading that the father had the stepmother do the spanking especially after they were just married.

I realize the stepmother is upset with the child for killing her husband but if there was a healthy relationship with her and the child, i would think she would at least visit him to ask him what happened, no?

Granted, the biological mom doesn't seem like Mother of the Year and a bit flaky too...

What a sad situation all the way around...

You have to remember there are always 2 sides to every story and we haven't heard from the step-mom. Time will tell.

[luna24]

You have to remember there are always 2 sides to every story and we haven't heard from the step-mom. Time will tell.

you're absolutely right - I'm reserving judgment until I hear more. I just wanted to point out the few things that rubbed me the wrong way about the stepmother since some of the other points about the bio mother were already raised. :)

[Jayne]

Mamma did something...or just wanted "out"..yet she had some maternal instinct to keep in touch with her child.

Poppa..had full custody..but with today's laws about spanking a child, etc. better let "mom" do it..so he handed it over to his wife (stepmom to his child).

Now there's a murder..

Mamma...doesn't want to be implicated (well..yeah...but a biological mother of a child????) Father of the child is dead..she was visiting them/him recently.

Stepmother...just sits there and does nothing? why? Afraid of police or CPS intervention? Her husband can't defend her...he's dead.

And I read about all this "family connections" and no one.NO ONE has come in to help this child?

I still smell something fishy about the biological mother..and if not..the step mother.

The police should have NEVER questioned this child..without a parent..guardian..and if none available..an attorney.

I'm not faulting the police, per se...I imagine it was an emergency situation?

jmo

j

[GentleBreeze]

In defense of the bio mom, not all women are maternal, sadly, most don't realize that until after they have a child.

This mom was lucky enough to have a good partner who was paternal enough to want full custody and appeared to be trying to raise a good kid.

To the mom's credit, she didn't give up custody and she did stay involved in the boy's life. She allowed the dad to have physical custody and bring the boy up in a more stable environment than she could provide.

It's not a crime to realize that you don't have the maturity, stability, patience, and tolerance to be a good parent. It's a good thing to allow the nurturing parent custody.

What happened in that house is a mystery. Although I understand the concept that "what happens in this house stays in this house"---I'm not comfortable that the step-mother supervised the boy's phone calls with his mother.

Why would that be necessary? Why would a step-mother of a few months be designated to provide physical discipline?

The step-mother hasn't had time to form a parental bond with the boy. Even if she and Dad had a long term relationship---she had been just "the girlfriend".

Without a parental bond any physical discipline will 'feel abusive' to a kid, IMO. How could an 8 year old feel that Dad's 'girlfriend' 'beating up on him' was based in love? Yes, I know we understand she was the wife now and that it was punishment for the child's misdeed---but did the 8 year old get that?

And then he can't talk privately with his own mom?

That seems too odd.

Hecate

I don't think the bio mom allowed anything. The custody case went through the Courts. She certainly was unfit to have custody of this boy.

We have absolutely no idea if he bonded with his step mom or didn't. She had been a constant figure in his life for over 2 years and I do believe children can bond to those that are constantly in their environment. He certainly had no anger toward the step mother or he would have laid in wait and murdered her too when she came in and he didn't.

The stepmother has not spoken out. She is most likely still reeling from all of her great loss and tragedy that struck. I don't out much faith in the bio mom's words who wishes to blame the stepmother now. I find it ironic that she wishes to belittle someone else and wants others not to think about her own shortcomings. She surely neglected this child. Not even seeing him but 2 weeks out of a year and a half. She is the one that chose to move far away from this boy yet she chides the stepmother who has been there consistently in his life for over two years?

Why should the stepmother leave the room? Neither my husband or I left the room when our children talked to their dad or mom, we just went about our business doing whatever we were doing before they called. If we were watching tv, we continued to watch tv. if we were reading...we continued to read, etc. But again we have not heard the stepmom's side of the story and there are always two sides to everything.

There is nothing saying anyone "beat up" on anyone. They learned he got swatted when he confessed and as late as Monday of this week both the PC and his own attorney said they have uncovered no abuse.

All I know is, if ever bit of this was true and he became so angry that he murdered two innocent men because of that anger then God help all parents who may anger their own children (who do and will). It certainly is chilling and must put the fear in other parents' minds as they try to raise their own children, which can be very difficult at times.

imoo

[justaguy]

Exactly what I said about my 8 year old, most 8 year olds cannot fathom death the way we do. When they hear about a death, most little ones just think oh I won't see him/her or he/she went to see Jesus, something along those lines. I don't think they can understand that it is final, there is no coming back..ever. Sad situation all around.

its not just death...i mean we are talking about an age where they may still believe in santa clause..fully. their base of experience is completely different. what may be a big deal to an adult doesn't hit a kid the same way...and some kids are terrified by situations that we would not give a second thought.

for example, in my home town in 1978 there was a normal kid about 4 years younger than me..he was 9. he had lost 2 library books and the librarian told him very sternly (she was a nice lady actually) that if he lost another one, he would be in big trouble. well he did...and for a week he told a couple of buds how scared he was to tell her. the night before library day he jumped off a bridge and drowned.

my point is...that seemed so huge to him that he could not deal. turn it around...and the same stress AND LACK OF ADULT PERSPECTIVE has him showing up on library day with a gun.

i hope this story made some kind of sense. it has been around 30 years and it still bothers me. i don't know if its relevent to this case but it just put me in mind of it.

[Amy S.]

Thanks, justaguy. You have a point.

But, then I wonder why he killed the roommate? Or, why not wait until the step mom was there and kill all 3?

And if the perceived problem was with school work, it is fortunate that he didn't take the gun to school.

I do hope that the truth comes out, eventually, so that maybe I will understand this tragedy.

[GentleBreeze]

Interesting that each victim was shot 4 times. Each time required a re-load. Eight times he had to put a bullet in the .22 rifle.

A child who has hunted and killed prairie dogs has a much clearer understanding of death than a typical urban kid. We aren't talking about violent movies or video games here.

You are so right.

Like the countless children I have known throughout my life that have hunted game at an early age with their parents and other family members knows much more about death than a child who gets their views of pretend death only from a video game. And they are taught to never leave the wild game or varmint they shoot, wounded and still alive.

This boy knew very well what the end results would be and that is why he riddled their bodies with four shots each to make sure they were dead.

Just like the prairie dogs, he knew these men were never getting back up again.

imoo

[momof6]

As far as handcuffing the kid: I work in the public school and saw a time where a 9 year old girl had to be handcuffed to the chair to protect her from herself until her parents arrived. She was smashing her head ect. Her parents were thankful to the police and principal for handcuffing her. Thank goodness it wasn't a family looking for a lawsuit.

Just because you read that lawenforcement interviewed the kid, doesn't mean that is exactlly how it was. When they get to a scene, they do not know who is there, if someone is hiding with a gun, if the killer ran off (what does the suspect look like) ect. We should not expect them to not ask any questions at all.

Working in the public school, I can say I have seen several killers in the making at age 8. These kids know alot and they do know what it means to kill and to die. Especially if you come from a hunting family.

[bkwits]

its not just death...i mean we are talking about an age where they may still believe in santa clause..fully. their base of experience is completely different. what may be a big deal to an adult doesn't hit a kid the same way...and some kids are terrified by situations that we would not give a second thought.

for example, in my home town in 1978 there was a normal kid about 4 years younger than me..he was 9. he had lost 2 library books and the librarian told him very sternly (she was a nice lady actually) that if he lost another one, he would be in big trouble. well he did...and for a week he told a couple of buds how scared he was to tell her. the night before library day he jumped off a bridge and drowned.

my point is...that seemed so huge to him that he could not deal. turn it around...and the same stress AND LACK OF ADULT PERSPECTIVE has him showing up on library day with a gun.

i hope this story made some kind of sense. it has been around 30 years and it still bothers me. i don't know if its relevent to this case but it just put me in mind of it.

I have just astounded that this 8 year-old child has branded as a assassin. Even though the father seemed to be trying to cope with raising his son, he nevertheless, provided the boy with the weapon and ammunition. The father must have had some misgivings about doing so as he consulted his parish priest about it.

Can a normal child be so cunning as this one has been described? Yes, indeed IMO. My granddaughter was just as cunning at 4 years old while in pursuit of M&Ms. And she is a normal happy child living with both her parents. Her dad (my son) was trying to explain to her that she had been "deceitful."

Of course, other children learn to shoot at a young age. I suppose most of those children who have access to firearms, ammunition, and know how to use them, don't shoot anyone. But, IMO, it is the responsibility of the parents to keep fireams away from young children. I know of several situations where a child has shot another child while playing with the parent's firearm.

People with guns kill other people. Children with guns may kill themselves or other people.

Drive responsiblity and own guns responsibly.

[GentleBreeze]

I have just astounded that this 8 year-old child has branded as a assassin. Even though the father seemed to be trying to cope with raising his son, he nevertheless, provided the boy with the weapon and ammunition. The father must have had some misgivings about doing so as he consulted his parish priest about it.

Can a normal child be so cunning as this one has been described? Yes, indeed IMO. My granddaughter was just as cunning at 4 years old while in pursuit of M&Ms. And she is a normal happy child living with both her parents. Her dad (my son) was trying to explain to her that she had been "deceitful."

Of course, other children learn to shoot at a young age. I suppose most of those children who have access to firearms, ammunition, and know how to use them, don't shoot anyone. But, IMO, it is the responsibility of the parents to keep firearms away from young children. I know of several situations where a child has shot another child while playing with the parent's firearm.

People with guns kill other people. Children with guns may kill themselves or other people.

Drive responsibility and own guns responsibly.

Now that is a chilling thought. In this case it was certainly not a safety issue concerning the child's safety at all. Not one hair harmed on his head. So we are to lock up our weapons and have them locked up tight when and if someone invades our homes during the night that is wishing to harm or kill our families? Or are we to lock them up to protect the parents of these children who fly into a murderous rage if they are dared to be disciplined?

Yes, he was an assassin. Four bullets each to the chest and head of the two victims.

There are millions of people in this country that teach their young children gun safety and take them game hunting. There is no statistics anywhere that supports that children who were taught to game hunt at a young age become murderers. These children are very aware that the gun is never to be used or pointed toward a human being.

He tried to cover up his crime just like any other killer would do.

http://www.wmicentral.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20190155&BRD=2264&PAG=461&dept_id=505965&rfi=6

"In response to questions from Carlyon, Neckel said she and Apache County Sheriff's Cmdr. Matrese Avila interviewed the youngster the following morning. She said the boy initially told them he got off the school bus and walked around the neighborhood before going home. As he approached the home, he told the officers he saw a body on the front porch and then went inside and called for his dad before seeing his dad's body lying on the stairs. "He said he stayed there for 30 minutes and then he left the residence and went to a neighbor's house where there is another young man. He spoke to him and told him his father was dead and his father's friend was dead," said Neckel."

Thank goodness that Mr. Romans was on the phone outside the home with his wife and the boy told him to come into the home that something was wrong with his dad. Mr. Romans couldn't have been dead on the front porch FIRST. Mrs. Romans also heard the boy telling her husband to come inside.

imoo

[momof6]

Great Post Gentlebreeze.

My sons huge hunting knife is laying on the floorboard of our truck. I wonder if I should lock it up. That is how OJ's wife was killed. It would be easy to stab your parents while they are dead asleep.

Lizzy Borden killed hers with an axe. I better go lock up my axes.

[bkwits]

Great Post Gentlebreeze.

My sons huge hunting knife is laying on the floorboard of our truck. I wonder if I should lock it up. That is how OJ's wife was killed. It would be easy to stab your parents while they are dead asleep.

Lizzy Borden killed hers with an axe. I better go lock up my axes.

Would you leave the knife where little children could play with it? Like on the floor when a little one is crawling around? Safety is sometimes just common sense.

BTW, Lizzie Borden was a 32 year-old adult who was
ACQUITTED of the murders of her father and step-mother. I've heard the butcher knife argument for years, so please spare me.

[momof6]

I personally would not leave a knife on the floor at all. Are we talking about a toddler loading a gun four different times to shoot 2 unsuspecting people? What is a "butcher knife argument"? I wasn't argueing about it? I was stating a fact.

Kids can and have killed their parents with a knife while sleeping. Should we lock up our steak knives,pocket knives, hunting knives?

Having a relative in law enforcement. He said most of his domestic calls are with one of them stabbing the other.

[bkwits]

I personally would not leave a knife on the floor at all. Are we talking about a toddler loading a gun four different times to shoot 2 unsuspecting people? What is a "butcher knife argument"? I wasn't argueing about it? I was stating a fact.

Kids can and have killed their parents with a knife while sleeping. Should we lock up our steak knives,pocket knives, hunting knives?

Having a relative in law enforcement. He said most of his domestic calls are with one of them stabbing the other.

Well, we are discussing this one case where an 8 year-old shot two people. He did not stab them. He certainly couldn't have easily killed these two people with a knife. But the gun is the great equalizer. It makes the weak more powerful than his stronger opponent. Parents are often held responsible for their children hurting someone or destroying something, even when the child well knows what he or she is doing. The parents of the Columbine High School shootings have settled huge lawsuits filed against them. Those shooters were twice the age of this child.

Does your relative in LE know of any 8 year-olds killing an adult by stabbing? Just wondering.

[justaguy]

Thanks, justaguy. You have a point.

But, then I wonder why he killed the roommate? Or, why not wait until the step mom was there and kill all 3?

And if the perceived problem was with school work, it is fortunate that he didn't take the gun to school.

I do hope that the truth comes out, eventually, so that maybe I will understand this tragedy.

i guess my point is what is rational for an adult..is not for an 8 year old. trying to ascribe adult motives to a child's behavior seems odd. i am willing to wait and see/hear all in this case. i think some (i have met) want to come down so hard on children like these because we want to believe we can completely control them. good kids we can control...bad kids we can't . its not that simple.

[bkwits]

i guess my point is what is rational for an adult..is not for an 8 year old. trying to ascribe adult motives to a child's behavior seems odd. i am willing to wait and see/hear all in this case. i think some (i have met) want to come down so hard on children like these because we want to believe we can completely control them. good kids we can control...bad kids we can't . its not that simple.

Excellent point. Generally speaking, we don't consider an 8-year-old (especially a male) capable of caring for himself. We as a society deem that such a child needs supervision and care. If the family does not see that he has such care and supervision, he is sometimes placed in foster care.

I have read that the father gave his young son the .22 rifle. Now if the parent actually made available the rifle and ammunition to the youngster, then he, IMO, acted carelessly and foolishly.

Children will do stupid things, even when they are much older than this boy. IMO

[Kara]

Excellent point. Generally speaking, we don't consider an 8-year-old (especially a male) capable of caring for himself. We as a society deem that such a child needs supervision and care. If the family does not see that he has such care and supervision, he is sometimes placed in foster care.

I have read that the father gave his young son the .22 rifle. Now if the parent actually made available the rifle and ammunition to the youngster, then he, IMO, acted carelessly and foolishly.

Children will do stupid things, even when they are much older than this boy. IMOAbsolutely!! It's one thing to buy a child a hunting rifle...it's another to give that child unrestricted access to that weapon and ammunition.

[GentleBreeze]

Absolutely!! It's one thing to buy a child a hunting rifle...it's another to give that child unrestricted access to that weapon and ammunition.

They said all of the hunting weapons were kept in the father and mother's master bedroom.

I bet he had been told to never go in there to retrieve any weapon or ammunition.

Many states do not have laws stating their weapons must be secured. If the weapons are locked away then they will have no access to the guns should they need them for protection in case an intruder enters their homes with the intent to harm them or kill them.

The problem is years ago when parents said "Do not go in our room when we aren't there" the kids listened and obeyed the parents especially about touching any of the guns. Now though a kid may not and may sneak in there knowing they have been told to keep out and not touch.

imoo

[interested]

Excellent point. Generally speaking, we don't consider an 8-year-old (especially a male) capable of caring for himself. We as a society deem that such a child needs supervision and care. If the family does not see that he has such care and supervision, he is sometimes placed in foster care.

I have read that the father gave his young son the .22 rifle. Now if the parent actually made available the rifle and ammunition to the youngster, then he, IMO, acted carelessly and foolishly.

Children will do stupid things, even when they are much older than this boy. IMO




I'm not understanding what you're trying to say. Yes, children will do foolish things on impulse not recognizing the cause and effect of their actions. They're usually very sorry when their actions have unintended results.

That doesn't seem to be the case here. Unintended results would not require the boy to reload 7 times after the first shot. The coldness of calling Tim into the home after having shot his father doesn't lend itself to a frightened child who didn't mean to do it. Calmly going to a neighbors house with a fabricated initial story only makes it harder to believe this was an impulsive act.

It really isn't unheard of for young children to commit murder in a deliberate manner. There are other cases both here and abroad that were not unintended results.

The Jonesboro AR school shootings were committed by two young boys that had to go to great lengths to acquire the rifles they used to kill 5 & wound 11. They plotted the attack down to pulling the fire alarm to get everyone outside of the school, and steal the gun from a home neither of then lived in. They were 11 & 13 years old & came from stable homes.

http://www.cnn.com/US/9803/24/school.shooting.folo/

In Norway, two 6 year olds attacked a 5 year old and left her to die in the snow. In England two 10 year olds plotted to kidnap and ultimately killed a 4 year old. England currently protects the identity of children because of the case of Mary Bell who in 1968 killed two boys ages 4 & 3.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/people/highlights/001109_child.shtml


So children, very young children can and will go to great lengths to plot and carry out murder. The father/victim is not at fault here for his own death, unless he had reason to believe his son was disturbed in some way & by all accounts, that doesn't seem to be the case.

I would agree the decision to give this boy a rifle of his own would be foolish if there were any reports or reason to believe the boy was mentally disturbed, there is nothing to suggest that in this case.

It's simply not that unusual for children this age and younger to have their own rifles, to be trained in gun safety, to be accomplished hunters and to know exactly what they're doing when using that gun.

37 states have no minimum hunting age & you can find a multitude of stories on the net of Dads taking their sons on their first hunting trip at about 4 years old.:

http://www.hsus.org/wildlife_abuse/campaigns/children/laws_and_legislation_children.html

In reading this thread, I can't help but think how much easier it would be to believe this happened, had the killer been an inner city child using a hand gun. I wonder if it would have even made this board as a thread?

Why is it so easy to throw away the key on the inner city child, but we struggle to "understand" what happened when the family looks a lot more like those Norman Rockwell sketches.

I'd like to believe there's a lot more to this story. I think that's what's so disturbing about it, this could be any child, yours or mine. It's much easier to explain away and push it from your mind if there were a known emotional issue, if we could fall on "bad upbringing, what else could you expect", some form of abuse, anything that would allow us to say "that could never happen in my house".

[GentleBreeze]

Outstanding post, Interested!

[bkwits]

They said all of the hunting weapons were kept in the father and mother's master bedroom.

I bet he had been told to never go in there to retrieve any weapon or ammunition.

Many states do not have laws stating their weapons must be secured. If the weapons are locked away then they will have no access to the guns should they need them for protection in case an intruder enters their homes with the intent to harm them or kill them.

The problem is years ago when parents said "Do not go in our room when we aren't there" the kids listened and obeyed the parents especially about touching any of the guns. Now though a kid may not and may sneak in there knowing they have been told to keep out and not touch.

imoo

Well, I did say IF he was given access to the rifle and ammunition. I guess I just don't understand what is so difficult about restricting an 8 yo/s access to the riffle and especially to the ammunition.

Yes, as I said in an earlier post, children can be devious and cunning. I mentioned how devious my 4 y.o. granddaughter was in trying to get some forbidden M&M's. She thought it out, planned ahead lied,etc.

If you tell a child NOT to go in the closet because his rifle is in there, it's probably no better than a fifty/fifty chance that he will not do so if he has the urge.

Maybe you know or have children who obey 100%. Mine didn't. They grew up to be fine, honest people and good parents. I don't know precisely what happened in this case.

BTW, my uncle who was a retired Naval Officer, taught my son to shoot and hunt when my son was 11. My son taught his son to shoot a rifle and hunt beginning when he was about 13.

We all hope and pray that our children survive without ruining their lives or someone else's despite the stupid and dangerous things they do.

[GentleBreeze]

http://www.azfamily.com/video/3tvextra-index.html?nvid=304550

12 minutes of LE interview done with the boy.

Something is just not right with this boy. He sits there like telling a story in school. No emotions whatsoever.

He does refer to his stepmom as "mom" though.

imoo

[Heidi J.]

http://www.azfamily.com/video/3tvextra-index.html?nvid=304550

12 minutes of LE interview done with the boy.

Something is just not right with this boy. He sits there like telling a story in school. No emotions whatsoever.

He does refer to his stepmom as "mom" though.

imoo

Wow.. he is so calm. That is a little creepy.

[GentleBreeze]

Wow.. he is so calm. That is a little creepy.

It is very creepy...and no remorse for either his dad or Tim, either. He just sits there calmly lying.

imoo

[Justice_Dawg]

Interrogation or Child Abuse?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkLHXKHb1Vc

[Justice_Dawg]

This article says his bio mom had shared custody.

“I don’t believe he did this,” said the mother, Erin Bloomfield, 26, who has shared custody of her son with his father, Vincent Romero, 29, since the couple divorced six years ago. She said she talked to the boy every week and visited an average of once a month, driving the 20 hours to St. Johns from her home in Mississippi.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/13/us/13child.html?em


:shrug:

[GentleBreeze]

This article says his bio mom had shared custody.

“I don’t believe he did this,” said the mother, Erin Bloomfield, 26, who has shared custody of her son with his father, Vincent Romero, 29, since the couple divorced six years ago. She said she talked to the boy every week and visited an average of once a month, driving the 20 hours to St. Johns from her home in Mississippi.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/13/us/13child.html?em


:shrug:



Father Fights for Custody of His Son

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think this shows why the bio mother tries to put down the existing stepmother. She seemed very lacking when it came to her own child's needs. I can see how she would be intimidated if the new stepmom was trying to raise the child in a loving nurturing parental environment.

http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/stories/StJohns-local-news-111108-divorce-details-2x-murde.1a37a0964.html

Now 3TV sheds new light on the love this father had for his little boy. The papers show that the father fought in court to keep custody of his son. He also fought to make sure his son went to church and was not exposed to things like second-hand smoke. He writes that his son was a “preemie” with underdeveloped lungs and every time he visits his mom he comes home hacking.

Romero also writes about how she allowed a total stranger to blow smoke in his ear thinking it would cure an undiagnosed ear ache and he writes that for a year and a half his ex-wife lived in Mississippi and saw her son a total of about two weeks.

Romero complains she lived in a travel trailer without plumbing and she "shacked up" with her boyfriend in Springerville. The papers are dated two years ago but since the deadly shooting six days ago the mother has been at her son's side in St. Johns, a tiny rural eastern Arizona town taken by storm."

They did have joint custody but he had custodial custody.

[GentleBreeze]

Interrogation or Child Abuse?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkLHXKHb1Vc


This one was a very soft interview with a child that said he was at the crime scene.

imoo

[Justice_Dawg]

Father Fights for Custody of His Son

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think this shows why the bio mother tries to put down the existing stepmother. She seemed very lacking when it came to her own child's needs. I can see how she would be intimidated if the new stepmom was trying to raise the child in a loving nurturing parental environment.

http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/stories/StJohns-local-news-111108-divorce-details-2x-murde.1a37a0964.html

Now 3TV sheds new light on the love this father had for his little boy. The papers show that the father fought in court to keep custody of his son. He also fought to make sure his son went to church and was not exposed to things like second-hand smoke. He writes that his son was a “preemie” with underdeveloped lungs and every time he visits his mom he comes home hacking.

Romero also writes about how she allowed a total stranger to blow smoke in his ear thinking it would cure an undiagnosed ear ache and he writes that for a year and a half his ex-wife lived in Mississippi and saw her son a total of about two weeks.

Romero complains she lived in a travel trailer without plumbing and she "shacked up" with her boyfriend in Springerville. The papers are dated two years ago but since the deadly shooting six days ago the mother has been at her son's side in St. Johns, a tiny rural eastern Arizona town taken by storm."

They did have joint custody but he had custodial custody.

I see...but...

I have a big problem with the father telling the step-mom to spank the child.

If I was a step-mother, I would tell him to do it himself!!!
(I never spanked my own kids!!!)

But I guess that is just me. :D

[Justice_Dawg]

This one was a very soft interview with a child that said he was at the crime scene.

imoo
I thought here was also one before this one. Where he confesses?? Or am I lost??

[GentleBreeze]

I thought here was also one before this one. Where he confesses?? Or am I lost??

I think the forensic investigator testified that for 90% of the interview they really thought he was just a witness. Only in the last 10% was when they discovered he was the one who had done the murders. This released interview is before that happened.

I did notice though that he called his stepmom......"MOM" so I think he most likely identified her as one of his moms since his mom wasn't there much for him at all.



imoo

[Justice_Dawg]

I think the forensic investigator testified that for 90% of the interview they really thought he was just a witness. Only in the last 10% was when they discovered he was the one who had done the murders.

I did notice though that he called his stepmom......"MOM" so I think he most likely identified her as one of his moms since his mom wasn't there much for him at all.

imoo

I think the wife on the phone knowing the boy was is the house calling her husband to come in (only to be shot to death!) is going to hang this little boy.

I am sure LE has a lot more evidence, but with the gag, we will sit in limbo.

[GentleBreeze]

I think the wife on the phone knowing the boy was is the house calling her husband to come in (only to be shot to death!) is going to hang this little boy.

I am sure LE has a lot more evidence, but with the gag, we will sit in limbo.

I agree. I think they have way more evidence than we even know. IMO they won't even need his confession...the evidence will tell what happened and by whom.

Did you noticed when they asked him if he touched his dad and he said he did and then showed them that he nudged him with his shoe. I just found that so cold and eerie. I think he nudged him to see if he was still alive.:(

imoo

[Justice_Dawg]

I agree. I think they have way more evidence than we even know. IMO they won't even need his confession...the evidence will tell what happened and by whom.

Did you noticed when they asked him if he touched his dad and he said he did and then showed them that he nudged him with his shoe. I just found that so cold and eerie. I think he nudged him to see if he was still alive.:(

imoo


I think he did too. :(

[Debb]

Now that is a chilling thought. In this case it was certainly not a safety issue concerning the child's safety at all. Not one hair harmed on his head. So we are to lock up our weapons and have them locked up tight when and if someone invades our homes during the night that is wishing to harm or kill our families? Or are we to lock them up to protect the parents of these children who fly into a murderous rage if they are dared to be disciplined?

Yes, he was an assassin. Four bullets each to the chest and head of the two victims.

There are millions of people in this country that teach their young children gun safety and take them game hunting. There is no statistics anywhere that supports that children who were taught to game hunt at a young age become murderers. These children are very aware that the gun is never to be used or pointed toward a human being.

He tried to cover up his crime just like any other killer would do.

http://www.wmicentral.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20190155&BRD=2264&PAG=461&dept_id=505965&rfi=6


imoo

Check out one of the articles on that link. It says one of the Sheriff's Deputies stayed overnight with the bodies at a local funeral home. What? Why were the bodies not transported to the medical examiner's office for an autopsy? This sounds very odd to me. It also says family members of the deceased came to the funeral home to see the bodies the next day? Aren't the bodies evidence at this point? No wonder they want to put a cap on this story.

[i4doors]

http://www.azfamily.com/video/3tvextra-index.html?nvid=304550

12 minutes of LE interview done with the boy.

Something is just not right with this boy. He sits there like telling a story in school. No emotions whatsoever.

He does refer to his stepmom as "mom" though.

imoo thanks gentlebreeze. wow...is all i have!!!

[v8433]

Loved your post, Interested..:beer:

[Heidi J.]

Video: boy confesses (http://www.azfamily.com/video/localnews-index.html?nvid=304921)

This is the second part of the video released. He says he shot his dad because he didn't want him to suffer :(

[Amy S.]

I don't know where the closest medical examiners office would be, but this is the mountains of AZ. It is very remote. I imagine (moo) that any thing they need to conduct is done at the funeral home.

[GentleBreeze]

Check out one of the articles on that link. It says one of the Sheriff's Deputies stayed overnight with the bodies at a local funeral home. What? Why were the bodies not transported to the medical examiner's office for an autopsy? This sounds very odd to me. It also says family members of the deceased came to the funeral home to see the bodies the next day? Aren't the bodies evidence at this point? No wonder they want to put a cap on this story.

I don't think that is odd at all, Debb. This is a town of 4,000 people. They would not have a hospital morgue most likely so they always take them to the funeral home where the police guard the bodies and then they are taken to the MEs office for autopsy. Most likely they transported them the next morning.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Video: boy confesses (http://www.azfamily.com/video/localnews-index.html?nvid=304921)

This is the second part of the video released. He says he shot his dad because he didn't want him to suffer :(

One thing I have noticed about this boy his stories are very grandiose.

He did tell them that he had been taking and shooting an air gun that he wasn't supposed to be using when he dad wasn't with him. So it sounds like his father did tell him to stay away from the guns that he kept in his own master bedroom.

imoo

[Streetdreamer]

Dont believe he did this. Not saying its impossible, but I'm convinced this is a total mistake when this boy is accused. The media eats it up because it sells the most papers.

[GentleBreeze]

Dont believe he did this. Not saying its impossible, but I'm convinced this is a total mistake when this boy is accused. The media eats it up because it sells the most papers.

I think he did do this.

http://www.wmicentral.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20190155&BRD=2264&PAG=461&dept_id=505965&rfi=6

This was testified to in the hearing.

Hogle said several members of the Romans family arrived at the funeral home while he was there. He pulled a couple family members aside in an attempt to calm them down, and it was during that time that Romans' wife said her husband called her right after he got home from work. While discussing work and other topics with her husband, she told the officer she could hear the 8-year-old boy in the background yelling at her husband, "Tim, I need you to come in here, something's wrong with dad. Tim, come in the house, something's wrong." Hogel said Ms. Romans insisted the officers talk to the youngster - "He knows something; he was there when something bad happened to my husband. Make sure that they talk to him about this." Ms. Romans said the last thing her husband said to her was that the Romero youngster said something was wrong and he needed to go look into it.

[tv4me]

The boy keeps stating on the video that he shot his father and his friend twice each. He seems very firm on that, even when the officer asks if it could have been more. In fact, weren't both men shot four times each?

[GentleBreeze]

The boy keeps stating on the video that he shot his father and his friend twice each. He seems very firm on that, even when the officer asks if it could have been more. In fact, weren't both men shot four times each?

I find him both naive because he seems convinced they are going to buy his story and very calculating at the same time.

He is setting up the ruse about them already being shot. So he can't say HE shot them both 4 times each. He is trying to set it up as if he came along after the "unknown gunman" :rolleyes: had shot them already two times each and that he finished the job by shooting them two additional times a piece.

The most compelling evidence that we know about to date is the boy was unaware that his voice could be heard when Mrs. Romans was talking on the phone to a very alive husband at the time, hearing him lure Tim into the home saying something bad had happened to his dad.

Whether this confession is tossed or not, imo it will not make any difference when proving he did the actual crime. The step mom can testify that the boy was indeed mad with his father over his spanking, so they won't even need that part of his confession either.

imoo

[bkwits]

Dont believe he did this. Not saying its impossible, but I'm convinced this is a total mistake when this boy is accused. The media eats it up because it sells the most papers.

Well, I'm not sure what to think. I totally discount the confession. It seems as though the boy wasn't well supervised and was put in a dangerous situation. IMO

[GentleBreeze]

Well, I'm not sure what to think. I totally discount the confession. It seems as though the boy wasn't well supervised and was put in a dangerous situation. IMO

What dangerous situation? This boy was not harmed whatsoever. Now the victims of this crime certainly were put in a very dangerous situation.

However they never knew it until it was too late for them.

imoo

[steffaroob4]

Well, the video sure has me thinking. I thought that they would be able to tell the angle of the wounds to see what direction they came from.
I hope they have some good forensics for this, I would hate for a young boy to be put into this type of situation if he was innocent.

The boy seemd to very good with talking to people for his age. I wonder if he was in shock, I am surprised they didn't have a mental health expert in there talking to him.

[Crispy]

I don't even know what to really say about this case. I'm sitting here looking at my 8 year old son, and thinking of my 8 year old stepdaughter. While the parts of the interview I have seen the detectives were being gentle I still feel he should have had someone there with him. IMO

[Justice_Dawg]

I need to know how much, if any, GSR was found on the boys cloths.

:shrug:

[Justice_Dawg]

During the interview, the boy's accounts of the shootings change from him never having touched a gun, to throwing one he found in the home in a closet, to shooting at a car he said was speeding away from the house.

http://wtop.com/?nid=104&sid=1513427

:confused:

[GentleBreeze]

I need to know how much, if any, GSR was found on the boys cloths.

:shrug:

LOL Well that won't be known for awhile but they did take his clothing that he wore that night.

I think gunshot residue will be found on him. I wouldn't think with him using a long gun where the gases/residue would explode outward at the end of the long barrel, toward the victim that was shot, would place a lot of residue back on him.

But I do think they will find some just by the many shots he fired.

He sure thinks they will find a lot.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Here is the stats on a 22 rifle-Youth model. It looks very much like the weapon found.

http://www.savagearms.com/markigy.htm


Single Shot Rimfire Series
Model MARK I-GY Youth -- now with AccuTrigger
Caliber .22 S, L, LR
Overall Length 37"
Barrel Length 19"
Weight 5 lbs
Magazine Capacity Single shot
Stock Walnut finished hardwood, 12.5" length of pull
Sights Adjustable notched rear sight, bead post front sight
Rifling Rate of Twist 1 in 16"
Features New AccuTrigger, single shot blued barreled action, youth stock design, button-rifled barrel, swivel studs
Suggested Retail $209.00

This gun is very lightweight.

[Crispy]

He is going to spend Thanksgiving with his mother

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,454984,00.html

[interested]

Appalled! I just saw the video on Jane Valez Mitchell and some of it on Nancy Grace. This is clearly an 8 year old boy who has been so traumatized that he is saying anything he thinks these interrogators want to hear to get himself out that room. Both of these interrogators were in uniform and armed. I cannot fathom the fear in this boy and the intimidation he is experiencing. Where is a parent or adult in all of this? What gives the police the right to interrogate a little boy with no parent, no legal representation and to read the miranda and expect him to understand that? What is wrong with these adults who are allowing this to happen. On top of that he is being held away from his family members in a strange and scary place that is not in his best interest or factoring in his safety. If this little boy walked into the door and found his father and this other guy bleeding or dead, God only knows if his mind snapped and he has convinced himself that he did it. My heart is breaking for this little boy.

So January, how do you explain Tim's wife hearing the boy calling Tim into the house while she was on the phone with him?

This is information that only came to LE after the bodies were taken to the Morgue & he was questioned as a possible witness for 90% of the interview.

How is it you expect the boy came upon this scene, Tim as well as his Dad already a victim, when Tim was alive and well talking to his wife on the phone when the boy called him into the home?

[GentleBreeze]

Appalled! I just saw the video on Jane Valez Mitchell and some of it on Nancy Grace. This is clearly an 8 year old boy who has been so traumatized that he is saying anything he thinks these interrogators want to hear to get himself out that room. Both of these interrogators were in uniform and armed. I cannot fathom the fear in this boy and the intimidation he is experiencing. Where is a parent or adult in all of this? What gives the police the right to interrogate a little boy with no parent, no legal representation and to read the miranda and expect him to understand that? What is wrong with these adults who are allowing this to happen. On top of that he is being held away from his family members in a strange and scary place that is not in his best interest or factoring in his safety. If this little boy walked into the door and found his father and this other guy bleeding or dead, God only knows if his mind snapped and he has convinced himself that he did it. My heart is breaking for this little boy.

There is no way in the world that any two police officers on this planet could have told this story. 90% of the time they thought he had been an eye witness and like Wendy Murphy said according to AZ law police have a right to interrogate minor children who are supposed to have been at crime scenes.

How nice of him though, huh? He pumps two bullets into his father's body and then two bullets into his father's friend because he wanted to get them out of their misery.:flamemad: Too bad he didn't think about calling 911 for medical assistance. I mean even dogs and small children are dialing 911 these days to bring assistance to their loved ones. But he just finished them off.:rolleyes:

It was a good thing that he didn't know that Mrs. Romans had heard HIM, calling to her very alive husband, to come inside the home that something BAD had happened to his dad. Yet he tried to lie and say Tim was the FIRST body he saw laying there.

I will not be surprised at all if this boy has psychopathic traits.

He said he was constantly getting into trouble.

He snuck around behind his father's back and took one of the guns out and shot it, when his father had told him to never touch the guns when he was not with him.

It shows he has major issues and the calm and cool way he tells lies it makes me wonder if he is used to telling lies when it behooves him to get his tail out of a crack.

The evidence collected will be this boy's downfall.

imoo

[Amy S.]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/11/19/boy.confession.tactics/index.html

The news articles don't state what restrictions are going to be placed on the Thanksgiving furlow, with his mother.

I wonder where they will go for dinner?

In one of the videos, you can see the little boy standing inside a doorway. He doesn't even come up to the officer's elbow. He is tiny.

I am not sure that I agree with giving him a Thanksgiving break. It would be very tough to return him to jail.

[GentleBreeze]

Sorry but I am standing by what I said based on what I saw on the Jane Valez Mitchell show and the Nancy Grace show tonight. That's where I stand on this case. I know of no 8 year old who cannot be easily intimidated by two adult strangers who are heavily armed and in uniform. I also did not like the leading questions and the way they pressed him when he did not answer the way they wanted him to. I think the whole tape should be thrown out and this child released into his family's care with a Court Order to have him treated by a psychiatrist. If for nothing else than the trauma that he just suffered. Whether he pulled the trigger or not (which I do not believe he did) he is too young to understand the gravity and the father is the one who gave him the gun or access to it in the first place. I believe the child is a victim here just as much as the two deceased. I wish to add that you all seem to forget that this is a child not an adult. A child does not have the same mental capacity or understanding as an adult.

So if I gave my child a baseball bat as a gift and then they in turn murdered me by bashing my skull in with it, it is somehow my fault?

You can ignore Mrs. Romans if you want to but she will be a pivotal witness in this case. She told this information to police the very night this happened and before this boy was ever interviewed the following day. They will have Tim's cell phone and if you think the elimination of his confession is going to save him then imo you are just in denial.

The police was on the scene within minutes and secured it. The local, State and FBI are investigating this case. No one is trying to frame an 8 year old kid. This crime has rocked the very core of this town. It shouldn't have happened and they all know it but it did.

Well he darn sure planned it out very well and then lied to cover it up because he knew what he did was wrong. He murdered his father first then he lured Tim into the home under the pretense he needed him, only to shoot him four times, where he died on the front porch.

So the confession is the least of his worries. The evidence does not lie even though this boy tried to cover up his crimes.

You are basing your opinion on watching the Nancy Grace show. LOL

Have you watched the entire soft interview with the lady cops and this kid?



imo

[GentleBreeze]

You mean the one where he is stating in the beginning that he did not do it and then is pressured by two heavily armed uniformed police officers to confess to a murder that he did not do? The one where he is being interrogated without an adult on his behalf and is being read his miranda rights as if he can understand what that means? Is that the "soft interview" you are talking about? I don't care what this Roman is saying. She wasn't there she didn't witness it with her eyes. She is not credible and I hope to God that a Judge will throw this case out and get this boy some mental health treatment for the trauma that these cops did to him. And then I hope they sue the pants off this police department for damaging this 8 year old boy for life.

Of course she is credible. Very credible. She never accused the boy of anything but she did tell the police officers about what her husband told her and what she heard CR say. At the time they had no way to know this would become pivotal.

She was brought out in the last hearing so saying she is not credible is as slap in a woman's face that will have those haunting words in her mind forever knowing that was the last conversation she ever had with her husband and father to their two lovely daughters. So you can try to poo poo her all you want in order to build this defendant up but yes, she will be very relevant. Had she waited after they arrested him then maybe not so much but she immediately told the police just like she should have when at the time no one knew who had done this dastardly cold blooded murders.

[GentleBreeze]

Also I would ask where is the physical evidence connecting this kid to this crime? As far as I can see, all we have is a coerced "confession" by an 8 year old kid who has no idea what his rights are, let alone what the word "rights" means, what a lawyer is or how to get in touch with one nor does he have a parent or guardian or some kind of adult on his behalf during this interrogation by two heavily armed police officers. Holding this child in a detention center/juvenile jail on that basis is the real crime here. Hopefully these two officers will be fired, the Judge will dismiss these charges and this boy can get some psychological help for this atrocity. Have a nice evening everyone.


They have the evidence January or the DA would not be pursuing the case. No DA takes on a weak case when they don't have to and they aren't backing down one inch. They know there is a likelihood that the confession will be tossed yet they still go on trying to seek justice for these two innocent men.

The FBI, AZ State Police and the local police are investigating the crime. The crime scene was immediately secured. They took loads of evidence out of the home to be sent to forensic labs. They said they have talked to witnesses. They took the clothing worn by the boy the day he murdered the two men. He was in the home 30 minutes between the time he murdered his dad and when he lured Tim inside and murdered him on the porch before he could see his friend laying there dead. He also said that he nudged his father with the toe of his shoe so I am sure the shoes have been taken as well and there may be bloody shoe print patterns showing his path that he took because he said that his father's face was all bloody.

The officers will not be fired. In AZ they have ever right to interview a minor child that they first thought was an eye witness at the crime scene.

No one coerced this child he was highly chatty and cool as a cucumber. Like all suspects he did the deny,deny, deny thing and at the very end he finally admitted that he shot them.

Do you really think that the forensic results are back in this little of time? It doesn't happen over night but it does happen and it doesnt lie.

IMO

[momof6]

GentleBreeze: Excellent posts!!!!!!!!!!!! I couldn't have said them better.

I agree with you that the victims wife will suffer for the rest of her life.

I work everyday with 8 year olds and believe me there are alot of killers in the making. This is just the tip of the iceberg. All the teachers are talking about these kids.

Alot of 8 year olds are not innocent anymore. They know the ropes.

[bkwits]

Also I would ask where is the physical evidence connecting this kid to this crime? As far as I can see, all we have is a coherced "confession" by an 8 year old kid who has no idea what his rights are, let alone what the word "rights" means, what a lawyer is or how to get in touch with one nor does he have a parent or guardian or some kind of adult on his behalf during this interrogation by two heavily armed police officers. Holding this child in a detention center/juvenile jail on that basis is the real crime here. Hopefully these two officers will be fired, the Judge will dismiss these charges and this boy can get some psychological help for this atrocity. Have a nice evening everyone.

If you've read some of my previous posts, you will find that I agree with many of your points in your posts. I do think the child MAY have done the crime, but I totally discount the confession. Heck, LE here in IL have gotten adults to confess to horrible crimes. The got confessions from 7 and 8 year old boys that they killed an 11 yo gilrl to steal her bicycle, with no one present to represent the little boys. The problem was that she had been raped and of course the murderer's DNA was on the child's body. Not from little boys.

I do think it was reckless of the parents to leave the firearms and ammunition available for the child. Merely telling a child that he mustn't get the guns out of the closet is like waving a red flag at a bull. IMO. The boy said he had gotten them out before.

I know that a parent can't be watching an 8 yo every minute, so it would have been wise to remove the temptation. As for this little boy using another kind of weapon against two strong construction workers, I can't see that happening.

But we will see what evidence they have, I suppose. At least they are no longer talking of trying him as an adult.

All is MOO

[tv4me]

It's interesting that when the police asked the boy if he was mad at his dad, the boy responded that he was in trouble all the time. His father was apparently extremely angry about the boy's continuous lying. And then the boy keeps lying and lying on the tape. This is what he probably was doing with his father. Maybe the father got the kid a gun hoping to bond with the boy when they went hunting together. What do you do when your child lies all the time? Is this a sign of a bigger problem?

I don't know if the boy should be put into prision, but he appears to have severe mental problems; very troubled. I think he should be put in a mental hospital. I can't get over the fact that he had to reload the rifle each time he shot it and then called in the friend so he could kill him. The boy seems to have a lot of suppressed rage...do children who kill and are let go, end up killing again? Can a mind like this be fixed?

[justaguy]

There is no way in the world that any two police officers on this planet could have told this story. 90% of the time they thought he had been an eye witness and like Wendy Murphy said according to AZ law police have a right to interrogate minor children who are supposed to have been at crime scenes.

How nice of him though, huh? He pumps two bullets into his father's body and then two bullets into his father's friend because he wanted to get them out of their misery.:flamemad: Too bad he didn't think about calling 911 for medical assistance. I mean even dogs and small children are dialing 911 these days to bring assistance to their loved ones. But he just finished them off.:rolleyes:

It was a good thing that he didn't know that Mrs. Romans had heard HIM, calling to her very alive husband, to come inside the home that something BAD had happened to his dad. Yet he tried to lie and say Tim was the FIRST body he saw laying there.

I will not be surprised at all if this boy has psychopathic traits.

He said he was constantly getting into trouble.

He snuck around behind his father's back and took one of the guns out and shot it, when his father had told him to never touch the guns when he was not with him.

It shows he has major issues and the calm and cool way he tells lies it makes me wonder if he is used to telling lies when it behooves him to get his tail out of a crack.

The evidence collected will be this boy's downfall.

imoo
what do you think should be done to him....juvie..adult...what sentencing time?

[Justice_Dawg]

I appreciate your opinion in this and the fact that you seem to be giving this alot of level headed thought. I found an exerpt in the article that GentleBreeze put on his first post which is a newspaper article. In it, it reads ""Hogle said several members of the Romans family arrived at the funeral home while he was there. He pulled a couple family members aside in an attempt to calm them down, and it was during that time that Romans' wife said her husband called her right after he got home from work. While discussing work and other topics with her husband, she told the officer she could hear the 8-year-old boy in the background yelling at her husband, "Tim, I need you to come in here, something's wrong with dad. Tim, come in the house, something's wrong." Hogel said Ms. Romans insisted the officers talk to the youngster - "He knows something; he was there when something bad happened to my husband. Make sure that they talk to him about this." Ms. Romans said the last thing her husband said to her was that the Romero youngster said something was wrong and he needed to go look into it." I find this very disturbing. Reason being, why did this woman wait until the funeral to approach a police officer with this kind of evidence. Why did she not immediately call the police and report this? This is why I feel this witness that suddenly comes forward in the middle of a funeral where there just happens to be an investigating cop, and starts accusing this boy of this and that is simply NOT CREDIBLE. I still do not think that this boy did this crime. I think he was intimidated into saying he did because he saw two guns and two billyclubs on the uniformed police that were questioning him. I have seen this kind of questioning before. Does anyone remember the 80's when there was a witch-hunt going on for child molesters, investigators were interrogating small children outside the presence of their parents and intimidating them into saying that their teachers were molesting them? So many teachers went to prison or were brought up on charges because of law enforcement forcing kids to lie. I also find it dispicable that the prosecutor would seek to have this child tried as an adult. If this child was not allowed to testify at his own parent's divorce as to who he preferred to reside with because he was simply not capable of making a decision of that magnitude, what makes them think he is capable of understanding what he has done and what is happening to him. The judge laying alot of legalese on him and then asking him if he understand what was just said to him is unfathomable. An 8 year old mind does not have the capacity to comprehend any of this. He is just a baby.

I saw that article also. But they were shot on Nov. 5th and on the Nov. 6th interview they tell the boy "Tim was on the phone with someone and they heard you". So I think she did tell right away. Yet LE says the little boy was brought in as a witness. (I KNOW that is a lie from the video)
I still don't know why Tim and his wife were living apart. :shrug:
At least one gunshot wound on Tim better be an upwards trajectory, because his wife said he was going to walk in the house, and the boy is tiny.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/11/19/boy.confession.tactics/index.html#cnnSTCVideo

And from the video. The boy says his dad was upstairs, and Tim was on the porch. Which porch upstairs or downstairs?
From the tape the boy says he saw the door open, he walked in and saw Tim, then he says he went upstairs and found his dad with blood on his face.

MOO

[GentleBreeze]

GentleBreeze: Excellent posts!!!!!!!!!!!! I couldn't have said them better.

I agree with you that the victims wife will suffer for the rest of her life.

I work everyday with 8 year olds and believe me there are alot of killers in the making. This is just the tip of the iceberg. All the teachers are talking about these kids.

Alot of 8 year olds are not innocent anymore. They know the ropes.

Morning Mom6,

They said that Tim Romans family is highly upset that the boy is being allowed out for 2 days at Thanksgiving. It is quite chilling when the Judge stipulates that he cannot be around KNIVES or GUNS while he is out. That shows that the Judge does think that would be a lethal combination.

Yes, I have several friends who are teachers. They seemed to talk about those type of kids more and more. I see they even are a little fearful of some of them, themselves.

The only good, thing if there is one about this case, is kids this age do not usually murder. I believe I read that this had not happened since 2004. So it is extremely rare which shows me it is not the age of the child per se but the mindset of the individual child who becomes the suspect. No one has any assurances what may dwell in the mind of any child and while most do anger, they do not murder. When that happens it is that particular child that went to the extreme.

I also don't sweep with a wide brush by believing that his confession was coerced or false. The media gets a little carried away with that. The truth is in over a decade approximately 3 children have made false confessions. The vast majority of them tell the truth and I believe in the end CR did, after trying to cover up his crimes.

imoo

[Justice_Dawg]

Judge Roca is allowing the boy to be released from the juvenile center for a 48 hour period, released into the custody of his biological mother, for Thanksgiving. She said she is staying in St. Johns for this visit.

The Judge on Wednesday, 11/19/08, set the following rules for the 48 hour pass:

* there be no guns or knives in the home while the boy is free
* the boy not be allowed to play video games or watch TV.

Attorneys for the media asked that the gag order be lifted -- that was denied. Further, Judge Roca placed limits on some public records, ordering that written transcripts be substituted for audio and video recordings.

A status conference in the case has been scheduled for Dec. 8.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081120/ap_on_re_us/child_charged

Since this is a link to a Yahoo article it might not be available for too long.

P.S. Defense attorney Wood said the boy is allowed time to visit with his mother, stepmother, a grandmother and an aunt, but that time is limited.
I guess the judge sees him as no threat to society.
Judge also does not see a flight risk, or parental abduction risk. The mother does live in Mississippi right?
The stepmom is visiting the boy.
hmmmmmmmmmm

[GentleBreeze]

I appreciate your opinion in this and the fact that you seem to be giving this alot of level headed thought. I found an exerpt in the article that GentleBreeze put on his first post which is a newspaper article. In it, it reads ""Hogle said several members of the Romans family arrived at the funeral home while he was there. He pulled a couple family members aside in an attempt to calm them down, and it was during that time that Romans' wife said her husband called her right after he got home from work. While discussing work and other topics with her husband, she told the officer she could hear the 8-year-old boy in the background yelling at her husband, "Tim, I need you to come in here, something's wrong with dad. Tim, come in the house, something's wrong." Hogel said Ms. Romans insisted the officers talk to the youngster - "He knows something; he was there when something bad happened to my husband. Make sure that they talk to him about this." Ms. Romans said the last thing her husband said to her was that the Romero youngster said something was wrong and he needed to go look into it." I find this very disturbing. Reason being, why did this woman wait until the funeral to approach a police officer with this kind of evidence. Why did she not immediately call the police and report this? This is why I feel this witness that suddenly comes forward in the middle of a funeral where there just happens to be an investigating cop, and starts accusing this boy of this and that is simply NOT CREDIBLE. I still do not think that this boy did this crime. I think he was intimidated into saying he did because he saw two guns and two billyclubs on the uniformed police that were questioning him. I have seen this kind of questioning before. Does anyone remember the 80's when there was a witch-hunt going on for child molesters, investigators were interrogating small children outside the presence of their parents and intimidating them into saying that their teachers were molesting them? So many teachers went to prison or were brought up on charges because of law enforcement forcing kids to lie. I also find it despicable that the prosecutor would seek to have this child tried as an adult. If this child was not allowed to testify at his own parent's divorce as to who he preferred to reside with because he was simply not capable of making a decision of that magnitude, what makes them think he is capable of understanding what he has done and what is happening to him. The judge laying alot of legalese on him and then asking him if he understand what was just said to him is unfathomable. An 8 year old mind does not have the capacity to comprehend any of this. He is just a baby.

It wasn't in the middle of the funeral, January. It was when the police took the bodies to the funeral home after removing them from the scene. It was the very night of the murders. This town only has 4000 people in it.....I am positive it does not have a ME. So the police would guard the bodies at the funeral home until they could be transported to a MEs office.

She did report it ASAP! And she never accused the boy of anything but she did want the police to know what her husband said and what she heard. She nor anyone else would have been allowed to enter the crime scene at the home.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

I saw that article also. But they were shot on Nov. 5th and on the Nov. 6th interview they tell the boy "Tim was on the phone with someone and they heard you". So I think she did tell right away. Yet LE says the little boy was brought in as a witness. (I KNOW that is a lie from the video)
I still don't know why Tim and his wife were living apart. :shrug:
At least one gunshot wound on Tim better be an upwards trajectory, because his wife said he was going to walk in the house, and the boy is tiny.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/11/19/boy.confession.tactics/index.html#cnnSTCVideo

And from the video. The boy says his dad was upstairs, and Tim was on the porch. Which porch upstairs or downstairs?
From the tape the boy says he saw the door open, he walked in and saw Tim, then he says he went upstairs and found his dad with blood on his face.

MOO

Tim was married with two daughters. (18 and 19) who both go to college. His hometown was a distance away from where he worked with Vincent at the power plant. So he would stay with Vincent during the week rather than having to travel back and forth each day and he would go home on the weekends to be with his own family.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Justice_Dawg, I don't agree that it would have to be a upward trajectory. This boy may have been standing on one of the steps of the stairs when he fired the shots. Then the trajectory would be downward with the boy at a higher level that Tim was.

imoo

[Justice_Dawg]

Tim was married with two daughters. (18 and 19) who both go to college. His hometown was a distance away from where he worked with Vincent at the power plant. So he would stay with Vincent during the week rather than having to travel back and forth each day and he would go home on the weekends to be with his own family.

imoo
OK, that clears that up. Thanks. :)

If and when he is found guilty of first degree pre-med murder, they have to release him at age 18 because he is being tried as a juvenile. He will be 18 in 10 years.
Is that justice?
I am at a loss for words...

[Justice_Dawg]

Justice_Dawg, I don't agree that it would have to be a upward trajectory. This boy may have been standing on one of the steps of the stairs when he fired the shots. Then the trajectory would be downward with the boy at a higher level that Tim was.

imoo
We are going into crime scene with no clue as to what actually happened.

Where were the gun shell casings found?
Were the casings moved or removed from the scene?
Is that type of gun powerful enough to produce blood spatter?
Were there any blood spatter patterns?
Did the first shot kill each man or did they keep moving so a second shot had to be fired?

Did they do a GSR test on the boys hands? They took him in less than 24 hrs after the murders. I doubt he knew to wash it off.



I hate gag orders. :flamemad:

[GentleBreeze]

Good morning, Justice_Dawg. I don't feel this child is a threat to society either and I don't see the mother abducting this child either. She can't even afford a lawyer let alone a plane ticket and false ID out of the country. I am on the same page as you wondering why the friend was bordering at this house and also the fact that there is a stepmother in play here may have alot to do with what was going on in that house. And how do we know the step mother wasn't the one that pulled the trigger. If the father instilled the idea into his son that hunting is okay and never to leave an animal to suffer but to put him out of his misery, how do we know that the boy did not come home to find these men shot already and going by what his father taught him, just went for his gun so they would not suffer which is what he said in the interrogation. I still do not believe the so called "witness" the wife of the deceased friend who waits until the funeral to tell a police officer this alleged conversation she overheard with this boy in the background. I still do not believe she is credible and I believe judging by the fact that she is angry about this kid being allowed home for the holiday, that this was just a statement coming out of anger that her husband was dead. And why was he not home with his wife at the time of this shooting? Also the fact that the mother and father went through a divorce, any divorce is rough on children we all know that, there are alot of factors in this household that we have to consider. I saw the tape and it was heart wrenching. The boy is adamant about not being involved UNTIL the detectives start pushing him. I have an 8 year old family member and I know how easily it is to intimidate him into admitting to anything if you pressure him enough. They are easily confused, easily swayed and easily convinced. They are also incapable of knowing the longterm outcome of actions and very rarely do they think of cause and effect. 8 years old they live the moment. I stand by my gut feeling that this boy is innocent and a victim in all of this and I hope to heaven that a qualified attorney will come forward and defend him without charge and give him the defense he deserves. I'm outspoken, huh.

The stepmother (whom he calls mom) was not there. She was going to be about 4 hours late coming home. Most likely she had to work overtime at her job. CR knew she would be late. The father got home around 4:30 pm from work.

You don't understand this woman's frustration? I just can't believe that you seem to have such rage, instead of compassion for this woman, January, or how you can put down this woman that has lost terribly. This boy is accused of cruelly murdering her husband and the father to her two daughters who adored their father and you don't think she should be bothered by the fact he gets a two day holiday?

She was not angry with the child when she reported the conversation to police THAT VERY NIGHT! She just wanted them to ask him what he knew or saw as she knew he had been right there when the bad thing happened to her husband and Vincent.

And you really need to read up on the case. It is very clear why Tim staid during the week and returned to his family on the weekend.

And your information is flat wrong. THIS WAS NOT RELAYED TO POLICE AT ANY FUNERAL BUT THE VERY NIGHT OF THE MURDERS WHEN THE KILLER WAS UNKNOWN.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

We are going into crime scene with no clue as to what actually happened.

Where were the gun shell casings found?
Were the casings moved or removed from the scene?
Is that type of gun powerful enough to produce blood spatter?
Were there any blood spatter patterns?
Did the first shot kill each man or did they keep moving so a second shot had to be fired?

Did they do a GSR test on the boys hands? They took him in less than 24 hrs after the murders. I doubt he knew to wash it off.



I hate gag orders. :flamemad:

I think we all hate gag orders although I think there will be some leaks.

I saw a few photos taken of the crime scene and some of them showed bullet casings in various areas. So hopefully all of them were left behind or if picked up and placed in another place in the home, they were found.

I do think there would be some blood splatter but not nearly as much if it had been a higher caliber weapon. What made it really lethal is imo these shots were fired very close on each victim. 22 rifles are used for smaller game and long distance shooting (up to a mile away) and the bullets come out at a very high speed. The entry and exist wounds aren't very large but can produce a lot of blood if the bullet hits vital areas, such as the head and chest.

I think most likely they weren't killed instantly with one shot and that is why repeated shots were fired.

I doubt they did do GSR testing on his hands. They did take his clothes though but they may have gone back to retrieve those later. At the time that the murders happened they did not suspect him as being the suspect so I doubt GSR on his hands were done.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

OK, that clears that up. Thanks. :)

If and when he is found guilty of first degree pre-med murder, they have to release him at age 18 because he is being tried as a juvenile. He will be 18 in 10 years.
Is that justice?
I am at a loss for words...

It sure sounds like a sweetheart deal to me, Justice D, for premeditated double homicides.

And it is scary. If he has some mental defect how can society be assured that he has been cured? Psychiatrists have been fooled before.

imoo

[Justice_Dawg]

PS to Justice_Dawg, I am with you on the stepmother visiting the boy for the holiday furlough. I find that extremely odd and get a bad vibe on that. I hope that she is not allowed to be with him without supervision to intimidate him or threaten him in any way, shape or form. If I were the mother, I would never allow it. I would like to know more about the boy's parent's divorce, this friendship, acquaintance or relationship between these two men, the marital situation between the friend and his wife, the relationship between the boy his father and his stepmother triangle, the relationship between the boy and his mother. What I wouldn't give to interview this boy or be a fly on the wall as he is evaluated.
I don't know if the stepmother will see him on the holiday furlough. He is being released to his bio mom.

I still find it odd that these murders happened right after the bio mom traveled 20 hrs to visit her son, and I still don't know if EITHER mom has a solid alibi.


I think that any outside undue influence to the boy while out on furlough could be devastating to this case.
It was the judges call to release him, and I see the judges decision as very odd in this case.
The judge knows more than we do. ;)

Can you see the media frenzy when he is released?? I bet the judge said that is a :no: but we know how the media is. They will track him like a dog. barf

[GentleBreeze]

what do you think should be done to him....juvie..adult...what sentencing time?

I really don't have a concrete opinion. Whatever the courts decides. It is up to them not me.

If tried in juvie he will be out scott free by 18. This case probably won't go to trial for a year or more so that would be around 10 years for two premeditated homicides.

imoo

[Justice_Dawg]

I think we all hate gag orders although I think there will be some leaks.

I saw a few photos taken of the crime scene and some of them showed bullet casings in various areas. So hopefully all of them were left behind or if picked up and placed in another place in the home, they were found.

I do think there would be some blood splatter but not nearly as much if it had been a higher caliber weapon. What made it really lethal is imo these shots were fired very close on each victim. 22 rifles are used for smaller game and long distance shooting (up to a mile away) and the bullets come out at a very high speed. The entry and exist wounds aren't very large but can produce a lot of blood if the bullet hits vital areas, such as the head and chest.

I think most likely they weren't killed instantly with one shot and that is why repeated shots were fired.

I doubt they did do GSR testing on his hands. They did take his clothes though but they may have gone back to retrieve those later. At the time that the murders happened they did not suspect him as being the suspect so I doubt GSR on his hands were done.

imoo

Where did you see the crime scene photos? I would love to see them.
I agree that type of gun wouldn't kill a man instantly with one shot.

[GentleBreeze]

PS to Justice_Dawg, I am with you on the stepmother visiting the boy for the holiday furlough. I find that extremely odd and get a bad vibe on that. I hope that she is not allowed to be with him without supervision to intimidate him or threaten him in any way, shape or form. If I were the mother, I would never allow it. I would like to know more about the boy's parent's divorce, this friendship, acquaintance or relationship between these two men, the marital situation between the friend and his wife, the relationship between the boy his father and his stepmother triangle, the relationship between the boy and his mother. What I wouldn't give to interview this boy or be a fly on the wall as he is evaluated.

I missed that somehow. I have not seen where the stepmother has even asked to see him.

Was this said on tv or in a print article?

There are links here that have information entered in the custody issue when the father was awarded custodial care but I think the child had always lived in his home since he was born. Two years ago they gave him custodial rights and the bio mom shared joint custody but not physical custody.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Where did you see the crime scene photos? I would love to see them.
I agree that type of gun wouldn't kill a man instantly with one shot.

Hmm ....gosh let me think. They were none showing the actual areas where the bodies were. It was photos that looked to be what was found outside. Maybe around Romans' area where he was killed. It does show the youth model rifle though sitting on what looks like a pet cage or kennel.

I think it was AZ something or another. I will try to locate them again.

I will be right back.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Where did you see the crime scene photos? I would love to see them.
I agree that type of gun wouldn't kill a man instantly with one shot.

Ok, here ya go.

http://www.azfamily.com/?nTar=OPUR&iq_id=5391398

:seeya:

[Justice_Dawg]

It sure sounds like a sweetheart deal to me, Justice D, for premeditated double homicides.

And it is scary. If he has some mental defect how can society be assured that he has been cured? Psychiatrists have been fooled before.

imoo
IMO 10 yrs in a juvenile detention center does not cure one of a premeditated mind.
A Psychiatrist would have no say that would even matter after age 18.

The boy being tried as a juvenile rests on this judges shoulders.
For some reason this judge seems very lenient to me in a case like this.

MOO

[Justice_Dawg]

I missed that somehow. I have not seen where the stepmother has even asked to see him.

Was this said on tv or in a print article?

There are links here that have information entered in the custody issue when the father was awarded custodial care but I think the child had always lived in his home since he was born. Two years ago they gave him custodial rights and the bio mom shared joint custody but not physical custody.

imoo
The first link posted this am says the stepmother visits him at the detention center. It also said his mother, a grandmother and an aunt visit him.

[momof6]

Why did the judge order the mom not to have knives around during the visit?

His mind will Never be cured after what he did. His mind will torment him, unless he is a sociopath. If he is, then he needs to never be let go or he will repeat this behavior on some other innocent person.

[GentleBreeze]

The first link posted this am says the stepmother visits him at the detention center. It also said his mother, a grandmother and an aunt visit him.

Oh thanks. I must have missed that. I have read so much about this case that I may come to a link and think I had already read it. lol

Well that does show she had an emotional bond with this child all along or she is desperately searching for answers from him as to why he would do this.

imoo

[bkwits]

Ok, here ya go.

http://www.azfamily.com/?nTar=OPUR&iq_id=5391398

:seeya:

Thanks for the link to the crime scene photos. What is the significance of the handgun in one photo?

[GentleBreeze]

Why did the judge order the mom not to have knives around during the visit?

His mind will Never be cured after what he did. His mind will torment him, unless he is a sociopath. If he is, then he needs to never be let go or he will repeat this behavior on some other innocent person.


That is one of the main thing that bothers me Mom6. He just doesn't exhibit any remorse or even caring that his father and his dad's friend are dead and were murdered.

Just the way he described that he shot both of them to get them out of their misery is chilling. What child thinks that way if they were to see their father laying there bleeding and dying? What child would just nudge his dad's body with the toe of his shoe?

Something is just not right with this boy. He has such a disconnect. In some ways he reminds me of Casey Anthony. Grandiose lies and no remorse.

imoo

[Justice_Dawg]

Ok, here ya go.

http://www.azfamily.com/?nTar=OPUR&iq_id=5391398

:seeya:Awesome link, it has everything, Thanks!! I owe you one!

Why the crime scene picture of a handgun on the seat of a vehicle? :confused:

I know they were said to be avid hunters.. but come on, who leaves a handgun on the seat, IN PLAIN SIGHT, in their vehicle?????

What is up with these people???

OK, now I am totally confused. :o

[Justice_Dawg]

Thanks for the link to the crime scene photos. What is the significance of the handgun in one photo?
LOL, you know what they say about geat minds. :D :beer:

[GentleBreeze]

Thanks for the link to the crime scene photos. What is the significance of the handgun in one photo?

Nothing. They have to photograph any weapon that is found at the scene. It looks to be inside a truck, perhaps.

Like the reporter said they have many more photos but they are way too graphic to publish.

The ME already knows what weapon was used to kill these men.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Awesome link, it has everything, Thanks!! I owe you one!

Why the crime scene picture of a handgun on the seat of a vehicle? :confused:

I know they were said to be avid hunters.. but come on, who leaves a handgun on the seat, IN PLAIN SIGHT, in their vehicle?????

What is up with these people???

OK, now I am totally confused. :o

It wasn't found on the seat I don't think. They probably removed the weapon with forensic gloves on and laid it in the seat to photograph it well. I have seen them do this in other cases. They most likely have another photo showing where it was located, mostly likely in the glove compartment and the site just didn't show that photo.

imoo

[Justice_Dawg]

Why did the judge order the mom not to have knives around during the visit?

His mind will Never be cured after what he did. His mind will torment him, unless he is a sociopath. If he is, then he needs to never be let go or he will repeat this behavior on some other innocent person.

If convicted, he goes free at age 18. No if's ands or buts.

Like I said before, it was the judges call. I am sure it was a hard decision for him.

Personally, if I were the judge, I would have put that ruling on hold until all testing was back or more was known. :hat:

MOO!!!

[Justice_Dawg]

It wasn't found on the seat I don't think. They probably removed the weapon with forensic gloves on and laid it in the seat to photograph it well. I have seen them do this in other cases. They most likely have another photo showing where it was located, mostly likely in the glove compartment and the site just didn't show that photo.

imoo

In my experience that would be a big :no:. No rearanging of a firearm for a crime scene photo. Never. That is called crime scene contamination. I have seen a lot of that in some cases!

In what case did they move a firearm for a photo? That shocks the heck out of me. :confused:

IMO you would see a handgun on a table in a sealed evidence bag, tagged had it been found in an undisclosed spot.

[bkwits]

In my experience that would be a big :no:. No rearanging of a firearm for a crime scene photo. Never. That is called crime scene contamination. I have seen a lot of that in some cases!

In what case did they move a firearm for a photo? That shocks the heck out of me. :confused:

IMO you would see a handgun on a table in a sealed evidence bag, tagged had it been found in an undisclosed spot.

Thanks for your input JD. I thought that perculiar.

[GentleBreeze]

In my experience that would be a big :no:. No rearranging of a firearm for a crime scene photo. Never. That is called crime scene contamination. I have seen a lot of that in some cases!

In what case did they move a firearm for a photo? That shocks the heck out of me. :confused:

IMO you would see a handgun on a table in a sealed evidence bag, tagged had it been found in an undisclosed spot.


No it isn't. Evidence is found in areas where they are not easily photographed. As long as the detectives documented it along with the photo number sequence where the gun was originally located they are allowed to remove the evidence to take a much clearer picture of it.

These photos were taken before any of the evidence was secured in a sealed evidence bag. It is customary to take photos first then have a tech place them in a secured bag before removing them from the scene.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

There most likely is another photo of the gun. Maybe it can only be partially seen if it was located in the glove compartment among papers that made it hard to see. Also I have no doubt all of this crime scene was videoed too in all of its original locations.

They will have it documented.

But there is also a possibility that it was laying on the seat in plain sight. In most states one has to have a permit to carry a concealed weapon. If they do not have one, the weapon has to remain in plain sight at all times.

imoo

[Amy S.]

The gun on the car seat is a very common hand gun that is carried by lots of people in AZ. As long as your weapon is visible you can carry it on your hip, if you want.

I about freaked out when I moved from IL to Flagstaff and saw men walking around with a weapon in their belt. (It is not common, but is legal.)

I saw a picture of the interior of the house on the news last night and the father's body was still there.

It strikes we as weird, too - that this little boy, is just not in hysterics. Take any 8 YO away from his home, lock him up, take him before a judge in leg irons and I would think that the little boy would be curled in a ball on the floor. He seems to be just walking around.

The judges restrictions on the home visit, seem more like he is punishing a boy for being bad, rather than a boy accused of double homicide.

I wonder how many shots were fired in total? Would a .22 go through a body and lodge in a wall?

What if the boy was messing with the gun and it accidently discharged? Either into the wall and then the father came running in or
he accidentally shot the father. But, then for some reason, he "put him out of his misery."

It is that statement that I don't think was cohersed.

The judges orders about the home visit seem more like he is punishing a boy for a misdemeanor rather than double homicide.

[momof6]

We have always carried a gun in our car. Even with all the kids.

Some people are saying the 8 year old is too little to hurt anyone with a knife. If that is true, then why would the judge not want him around knives during his holiday visit?

[Justice_Dawg]

No it isn't. Evidence is found in areas where they are not easily photographed. As long as the detectives documented it along with the photo number sequence where the gun was originally located they are allowed to remove the evidence to take a much clearer picture of it.

These photos were taken before any of the evidence was secured in a sealed evidence bag. It is customary to take photos first then have a tech place them in a secured bag before removing them from the scene.

imoo
FIVE STEPS OF CRIME SCENE PROCESSING

Basically, there are five steps to crime scene processing. Each step requires numerous procedures to be performed at certain times:

1. Responding to the crime scene requires the crime scene detective to arrive with a plan and the proper attitude. The crime scene detective must communicate with the first responding officers and learn as much as possible about what has taken place. Scene perimeters are established or enlarged and the scene is secured.

2. Crime scene photography is next. This step must be completed prior to moving or collecting any evidence.

3. Crime scene diagramming. The rough sketch with measurements must be completed prior to moving anything and a complete evidence list and sketch legend is completed.

4. Collection of physical evidence.The scene must be legally searched for evidence that is both seen and unseen. When evidence is found, it must be documented fully, collected properly and packaged in such a way to maintain its evidentiary value.

5. Processing the scene for fingerprints. Fingerprinting the crime scene is usually performed last because fingerprint powders will contaminate the scene. Those items or surfaces that need processing will have to be protected from contamination until after the scene has been processed. There are exceptions to this which are determined by the circumstances of each scene.

----------------#2 before #4
If someone picked up that handgun and laid it on the seat, even with gloves on, it is contaminated because it hasn't been dusted, checked for last firing, tissue, skin cells, ect.
At that point in time, the taking of crime scene photos, they had no clue which gun killed those men.

Right? or No?

JMO

[Amy S.]

I wouldn't want him around matches or the stove, either.

Wouldn't there be a happy medium between giving him a 48 hour furlow, with a mother that may or may not be able to supervise him, and keeping him locked up?

I just think that the judge is taking a big chance. Maybe the mother could spend the time with the boy, in a supervised location.

[Details]

I'm thinking no knives for fear of suicide. I've only just seen one article - CBSNews has something on his confession to the police - and it seems hugely shady to me. I've seen a similar case, where the confession was false, pulled out of a kid by police (kids are taught to do what authority figures tell them, to obey, and to trust them - that can be a bad thing when it comes to police using adult interrogation techniques of lying about the evidence proving they did it, and pressure to confess) - it took forever to get the real killer, and to get the prosecutor to stop going nuts on the kid who confessed.

That confession sounds a lot like the other false confession.


But in any case - I don't believe at 8 a kid is solidly set on anything they will be. So juvenile does sound right. And IIRC, isn't he basicly clean? No history of a bunch of trouble, violence, etc.? I thought that was what I read last time I looked at this story. Yep - just looked. So - this good kid, polite, respectful, well-bonded with his father kills him? Juvenile is definitely appropriate if he did it - which I'm doubting more and more.

If so - something just isn't sounding right here. It's sounding a lot like the Tuite case in San Diego.

[Justice_Dawg]

I'm thinking no knives for fear of suicide. I've only just seen one article - CBSNews has something on his confession to the police - and it seems hugely shady to me. I've seen a similar case, where the confession was false, pulled out of a kid by police (kids are taught to do what authority figures tell them, to obey, and to trust them - that can be a bad thing when it comes to police using adult interrogation techniques of lying about the evidence proving they did it, and pressure to confess) - it took forever to get the real killer, and to get the prosecutor to stop going nuts on the kid who confessed.

That confession sounds a lot like the other false confession.


But in any case - I don't believe at 8 a kid is solidly set on anything they will be. So juvenile does sound right. And IIRC, isn't he basicly clean? No history of a bunch of trouble, violence, etc.? I thought that was what I read last time I looked at this story. Yep - just looked. So - this good kid, polite, respectful, well-bonded with his father kills him? Juvenile is definitely appropriate if he did it - which I'm doubting more and more.

If so - something just isn't sounding right here. It's sounding a lot like the Tuite case in San Diego.
I posted the Crowe boys so called confession (from YouTube) a few pages back. :D

[NoMisbehavin]

I saw an attorney interviewed on FOX this morning regarding the release of a portion of this tape to the media, he was just outraged. He also commented about by it being released to the media something about it being inadmissable, wish I could find a link.

He also said they were way off base my interrogating this young child no matter what they suspect him of without reading his rights, without a guardian or parent or someone with him in the room at the time.

They also made mention that the release of this leaked film is a felony and that the person that leaked it can also be charged with a felony.

This was all discussed this morning on Fox & Friends.

I realize many lives are affected by these killings, but I think we need to remember that this is a eight year old boy.

I can remember a situation with my son with a broken arm, because he said the wrong thing to daycare, CPS was called, both boys were taken to their grandparents and we didn't get them home for a few days, all because of what he said to the CPS lady. When asked why he said his dad broke is arm, he said ~ " I figured if I told her what she wanted to hear she would leave me alone and I could go back to the soccer game". After attorney fees, tears and much aggravation with the system, it was solved. He actually broke his arm on the twistaround slide at the park across from where we lived. He was 6 or 7.

To try this child as an adult is wrong and to release all this to the media I think is wrong also.

JMHO

[GentleBreeze]

FIVE STEPS OF CRIME SCENE PROCESSING

Basically, there are five steps to crime scene processing. Each step requires numerous procedures to be performed at certain times:

1. Responding to the crime scene requires the crime scene detective to arrive with a plan and the proper attitude. The crime scene detective must communicate with the first responding officers and learn as much as possible about what has taken place. Scene perimeters are established or enlarged and the scene is secured.

2. Crime scene photography is next. This step must be completed prior to moving or collecting any evidence.

3. Crime scene diagramming. The rough sketch with measurements must be completed prior to moving anything and a complete evidence list and sketch legend is completed.

4. Collection of physical evidence.The scene must be legally searched for evidence that is both seen and unseen. When evidence is found, it must be documented fully, collected properly and packaged in such a way to maintain its evidentiary value.

5. Processing the scene for fingerprints. Fingerprinting the crime scene is usually performed last because fingerprint powders will contaminate the scene. Those items or surfaces that need processing will have to be protected from contamination until after the scene has been processed. There are exceptions to this which are determined by the circumstances of each scene.

----------------#2 before #4
If someone picked up that handgun and laid it on the seat, even with gloves on, it is contaminated because it hasn't been dusted, checked for last firing, tissue, skin cells, ect.
At that point in time, the taking of crime scene photos, they had no clue which gun killed those men.

Right? or No?

JMO

Right. And I have no doubt the handgun was first documented in its original place whether that is in plain sight or in an area not so well seen.

I don't understand why you think it would be contaminated though if it was picked up with protective gloves on. They usually will pick the weapon up by the very end of the handle or put an instrument into the barrel of the gun and lift it. It doesn't contaminate the testing of the gun as everything is left intact where it can be tested for firing, fingerprints or whatever.:shrug:

Well we certainly can see that the bullet casings at the crime scene were bullets for a 22 rifle. The gun shown would leave much larger caliber casings than the small, slender casings of the 22 rifle.

I don't think this handgun had anything to do with the crime. I am sure they took photos of Vincent's hunting guns as well in his master bedroom.

imoo

[Details]

I posted the Crowe boys so called confession (from YouTube) a few pages back. :DIt's very similar - the same type of "I guess I must have..." phrasing around the confession - to me that indicates the false confession - saying what the adults want to hear. The Crowe boys were much older - and still able to be pushed into a confession.

If he did do it - just incredibly unlikely - 8 year olds killing (contrary to the doom and gloom I read here about 'kids nowadays') is incredibly rare. 8 year olds killing their parents - likewise incredibly rare even with abuse. An 8 year old with no record of abuse, no record of violence, trouble in school, etc. suddenly killing two adult men with 4 gunshots each - it's just too unlikely. The confession doesn't prove it for me - they need some solid forensics.

The report of the dead man's wife hearing the child call him into the house - I wonder - was it the child she heard? Or the child's mother - a child's voice sounds similar to a woman's, and family voices sound similar (and hearing someone in the background - you don't hear much of their voice). I could see the child covering for his mother - but to be honest, I think he just confessed because he was being pushed to by the police. 4 gunshots each - that's not an 8 year old. Being a bit flat, unaffected - that's shock - no surprise there - he's suddenly in something no 8 year old knows how to deal with - and death isn't all that real to them.

[Details]

...I realize many lives are affected by these killings, but I think we need to remember that this is a eight year old boy.

I can remember a situation with my son with a broken arm, because he said the wrong thing to daycare, CPS was called, both boys were taken to their grandparents and we didn't get them home for a few days, all because of what he said to the CPS lady. When asked why he said his dad broke is arm, he said ~ " I figured if I told her what she wanted to hear she would leave me alone and I could go back to the soccer game". After attorney fees, tears and much aggravation with the system, it was solved. He actually broke his arm on the twistaround slide at the park across from where we lived. He was 6 or 7.

To try this child as an adult is wrong and to release all this to the media I think is wrong also.

JMHOReleasing it to the media is almost good - shows us the confession, how it was obtained - which tells me it's not likely to be a real one.

But yeah - kids will tell adults what they think you want to hear. It's pretty common.

[Justice_Dawg]

Right. And I have no doubt the handgun was first documented in its original place whether that is in plain sight or in an area not so well seen.

I don't understand why you think it would be contaminated though if it was picked up with protective gloves on. They usually will pick the weapon up by the very end of the handle or put an instrument into the barrel of the gun and lift it. It doesn't contaminate the testing of the gun as everything is left intact where it can be tested for firing, fingerprints or whatever.:shrug:

Well we certainly can see that the bullet casings at the crime scene were bullets for a 22 rifle. The gun shown would leave much larger caliber casings than the small, slender casings of the 22 rifle.

I don't think this handgun had anything to do with the crime. I am sure they took photos of Vincent's hunting guns as well in his master bedroom.

imoo

Laying it on the seat contaminated the side laying on the seat. It could have smudged a print among other things. It just isn't done that way. Contamination and Chain of custody would come up at a trial if the gun was involved and it would just be a big old mess.

How did they know 2 guns weren't involved in this case? I am sure at the time they didn't or they would not have taken a photo of the handgun laying on the seat. :shrug:

JMO

[GentleBreeze]

Releasing it to the media is almost good - shows us the confession, how it was obtained - which tells me it's not likely to be a real one.

But yeah - kids will tell adults what they think you want to hear. It's pretty common.

I think a lot of kids nowadays will telling you anything but what you are wanting to hear.

Dr. Ablow said that there have been three false confessions since 1958 concerning kids around this age.

I don't think that is near enough history to proclaim this one a false confession.

In fact IMO, the evidence is going to prove it is true and he killed them.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Laying it on the seat contaminated the side laying on the seat. It could have smudged a print among other things. It just isn't done that way. Contamination and Chain of custody would come up at a trial if the gun was involved and it would just be a big old mess.

How did they know 2 guns weren't involved in this case? I am sure at the time they didn't or they would not have taken a photo of the handgun laying on the seat. :shrug:

JMO

Ok I see your point. Most likely, like many in that area, Mr. Romans carried a handgun in his truck and he had to leave it in plain sight because he didn't have a permit to carry it concealed.

But they do know now and really I think they knew instantly that all shots fired came from a 22.

imoo

[NoMisbehavin]

I think a lot of kids nowadays will telling you anything but what you are wanting to hear.

Dr. Ablow said that there have been three false confessions since 1958 concerning kids around this age.

I don't think that is near enough history to proclaim this one a false confession.

In fact IMO, the evidence is going to prove it is true and he killed them.

imoo

So this eight year old if indeed he did kill these two men, should be tried as an adult and sentenced as an adult:shrug:

As many psychologists suggest a eight year old's brain isn't even fully developed to make logical decisions (not exact words) Was explained in a link provided on this very board.

I don't think if indeed he did commit these murders, I don't think he plotted and premeditated it as LE would want you to believe. I don't think a eight year olds brain functions like that. JMHO

I think it would be the courts duty to find out why it happened and get this young child the help he needs and not just consider him waste and put aside.

[Details]

I think a lot of kids nowadays will telling you anything but what you are wanting to hear.

Dr. Ablow said that there have been three false confessions since 1958 concerning kids around this age.

I don't think that is near enough history to proclaim this one a false confession.

In fact IMO, the evidence is going to prove it is true and he killed them.

imooA lot of kids anydays will tell you anything you want to hear - it's a matter of medical facts and brain development. An 8 year old is not just a short adult. Or rather - whatever they think will get them out of the unconfortable conversation the quickest, will get them what they want - like the kid who said daddy broke his arm so he could go play soccer some more.

3 false confessions - out of how many murder charges? Because murder charges are also incredibly rare in kids this age (and - how much 'around'?).

It's not the history that makes me say this is a false confession - it's that nothing is adding up. An 8 year old kid - with no bad record - school doesn't have a problem with him, neighbors see him as a good kid - no reason to think there's a problem - and anything so severe as to make an 8 year old kill, I expect it to be quite visible. Add in 4 gunshots each, calling the other adult - and it's really not fitting right.

Then there's the confession. The wording, the way it happened - it's just like the other one I've seen. The same type of "I guess" style wording, an obviously made up motive, changing stories - it's all fitting a false confession. Add in long interrogation without any adult or legal presence - it's dirty. Very dirty.

The facts don't fit.


And people have been lamenting the awful state of 'kids nowadays' since Socrates time. Somehow, it all works out.

[GentleBreeze]

So this eight year old if indeed he did kill these two men, should be tried as an adult and sentenced as an adult:shrug:

As many psychologists suggest a eight year old's brain isn't even fully developed to make logical decisions (not exact words) Was explained in a link provided on this very board.

I don't think if indeed he did commit these murders, I don't think he plotted and premeditated it as LE would want you to believe. I don't think a eight year olds brain functions like that. JMHO

I think it would be the courts duty to find out why it happened and get this young child the help he needs and not just consider him waste and put aside.

I don't know, that will be left up to AZ law and the Judge I presume. I think the Judge told the Prosecutors they must notify him of their intent within 15 days of yesterday's hearing.

They say the same thing even if the defendant is older. A psychologist is to evaluate him and see if he understands right from wrong. I am sure the Judge will take it from there. Most likely he will be tried in juvenile court.

But I don't think he should just go scott free for the horrible crimes he has committed.

And I don't underestimate his ability to form a plan and carry it out either. He seemed to be able to kill two grown men without either one of them even knowing they were in grave danger.

imoo

[steffaroob4]

Ok, here ya go.

http://www.azfamily.com/?nTar=OPUR&iq_id=5391398

:seeya:

I thought the boy said he put the gun in the closet?

Can someone tell me if you have to load that gun for each time you shoot it?

Do we know what time he normaly gets home from school?

[momof6]

A confession is not always needed to convict. Even if he had an adult sitting with him, he could still make up lies. We have good technology to help support what the investigators find at the crime scene.

If it is proved that this kid shot his dad and roomate, society should lock him up somewhere. I don't care if he is 8. Are we to just let him off because he is 8, so that he can grow up and be an adult killer?

If this kid murdered these men, he will never be rehabilitated no matter how much phsycotherapy or pills they give him. He will be a repeat offender.

[NoMisbehavin]

Lots of legal analysts seem to have issues with how AZ LE conducted this interview.

<Snippets from article>

Legal analysts who spoke with CNN were united in their opinion that the police questioning was improper and that any incriminating statements the boy made shouldn't stand up in court.

A review of the tapes shows that the boy's demeanor was more suitable for a session of show-and-tell than for a soul-baring confession as he describes the carnage he saw inside his home. He does not appear to be depressed, scared or sorrowful.

Later, as the police officers' questions become increasingly pointed, the boy says he shot the men. He says he shot his father a second time "so he wouldn't suffer."

That statement came, several analysts agreed, long after the camera should have been shut off and the boy advised of his rights to keep silent or consult a lawyer. Even then, they said, it is doubtful a child that young could understand those rights.

Nowhere on the tape, which police call a confession, is the boy read his rights. No parent or guardian is present as he speaks.

"The law enforcement conduct in this case is inexplicable: from interrogating a third-grader without the presence of a parent or other adult to releasing an inflammatory videotape before a trial," said Jeffrey Toobin, CNN's senior legal analyst.

"It's important, of course, to protect society from dangerous people of whatever age, but this case has been handled in such a way that seems to disregard the major challenges of dealing with such a young suspect," Toobin added.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/11/19/boy.confession.tactics/index.html


I just think the interrogation was handled horribly wrong. JMHO

[NoMisbehavin]

A confession is not always needed to convict. Even if he had an adult sitting with him, he could still make up lies. We have good technology to help support what the investigators find at the crime scene.

If it is proved that this kid shot his dad and roomate, society should lock him up somewhere. I don't care if he is 8. Are we to just let him off because he is 8, so that he can grow up and be an adult killer?

If this kid murdered these men, he will never be rehabilitated no matter how much phsycotherapy or pills they give him. He will be a repeat offender.

WOW, that's a pretty broad statement. There are people walking the streets today that have been "rehabilitated" and are on parole and walking our streets today much older than this young boy.

No one knows what was behind these killings, there is nothing in his past to show he has issues, I don't think you just toss away a child without at least giving him a chance. JMO

[Amy S.]

It was reported on this forum that the rifle had to be reloaded, for each individual shot.

FOX is reporting that the boy is going home. I hope that is just a rehash of the Thanksgiving furlow.

[Justice_Dawg]

I think a lot of kids nowadays will telling you anything but what you are wanting to hear.

Dr. Ablow said that there have been three false confessions since 1958 concerning kids around this age.

I don't think that is near enough history to proclaim this one a false confession.

In fact IMO, the evidence is going to prove it is true and he killed them.

imooI found 3 just in Illinois, should I look more?? Did Dr. Ablow count right???

The Ryan Harris Case 1998 (Two Unnamed Children Falsely Arrested)

In perhaps the most notorious false confession case in Illinois, seven and eight-year-old boys were charged with murdering eleven-year-old Ryan Harris in the South Side neighborhood of Englewood in July of 1998. One boy was only 50 inches tall and weighed 50 pounds. The other was just under four feet tall, weighed 60 pounds, and suffered a speech disorder which made it difficult for him to communicate.
http://www.nacdl.org/public.nsf/01c1e7698280d20385256d0b00789923/4a6e9aa597092057052573ed0056ffa3?OpenDocument
---------------Here is a 10 yr old
An eleven-year-old boy, with no prior criminal background and with no history of violence, was convicted in Chicago in October 1994 of murdering his eighty-three-year-old neighbor. At the time of the murder, A.M. was only ten years old.The only evidence against the boy was an oral confession he gave to Detective James Cassidy, the same detective who obtained the alleged statements from the two little boys in the Ryan Harris case. The initial confession was obtained by Chicago police outside of the presence of the boy’s attorney, parents, relatives, or a youth officer, after a 2-day interrogation.
http://www.law.northwestern.edu/cfjc/falseconfessions.html

[Details]

A confession is not always needed to convict. Even if he had an adult sitting with him, he could still make up lies. We have good technology to help support what the investigators find at the crime scene.

If it is proved that this kid shot his dad and roomate, society should lock him up somewhere. I don't care if he is 8. Are we to just let him off because he is 8, so that he can grow up and be an adult killer?

If this kid murdered these men, he will never be rehabilitated no matter how much phsycotherapy or pills they give him. He will be a repeat offender.IMO - that's nonsense. If my 8 year old steals a twinkie (or a CD player, or a thousand dollars) - is he a thief forever? At 8 years old, he's still developing. I don't think he killed them - but if he did - he is simply too young to have understood what he was doing. He's 8. His entire brain is going to grow and change. You are not who you were at 8, I am not who I was at 8 - when he is an adult, he will be some different person - maybe better, maybe worse.


There are very good reasons for a juvenile justice system - because juveniles are not adults. When they commit crimes, it is not the same as when an adult does - their brains are literally still developing their judgment centers, impulse control, etc. There are cases to try as an adult - but an 8 year old - especially an 8 year old never before in any type of criminal nor violent nor any trouble - is sure as heck not one of them!

[Justice_Dawg]

It's very similar - the same type of "I guess I must have..." phrasing around the confession - to me that indicates the false confession - saying what the adults want to hear. The Crowe boys were much older - and still able to be pushed into a confession.

If he did do it - just incredibly unlikely - 8 year olds killing (contrary to the doom and gloom I read here about 'kids nowadays') is incredibly rare. 8 year olds killing their parents - likewise incredibly rare even with abuse. An 8 year old with no record of abuse, no record of violence, trouble in school, etc. suddenly killing two adult men with 4 gunshots each - it's just too unlikely. The confession doesn't prove it for me - they need some solid forensics.

The report of the dead man's wife hearing the child call him into the house - I wonder - was it the child she heard? Or the child's mother - a child's voice sounds similar to a woman's, and family voices sound similar (and hearing someone in the background - you don't hear much of their voice). I could see the child covering for his mother - but to be honest, I think he just confessed because he was being pushed to by the police. 4 gunshots each - that's not an 8 year old. Being a bit flat, unaffected - that's shock - no surprise there - he's suddenly in something no 8 year old knows how to deal with - and death isn't all that real to them.

BUT I DIDN’T DO IT: PROTECTING
THE RIGHTS OF JUVENILES
DURING INTERROGATION

Abstract: Juveniles’ susceptibility to suggestion, coupled with their inherent naiveties and immature thought processes, raise considerable doubt as to their ability to understand and exercise their Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination. Furthermore, they are extremely vulnerable to overimplicating themselves in crimes or, even more unfortunate for all involved, confessing to crimes they did not even commit. To protect the rights and interests of juveniles, states must enact several safeguards. This Note suggests, for example, that courts which currently use a totality of the circumstances test to determine whether a juvenile confession is voluntary, and thus not a violation of the Fifth Amendment, should abandon it in favor of a less-flexible per se rule. Additionally, states need to simplify the Miranda warning into language more conducive to juveniles’ comprehension. To increase the reliability of confessions and prevent false confessions altogether, interrogators need to cease using the same interrogation tactics, such as leading questions and the presentation of false evidence, on juveniles as they do on adults.

more here: http://www.bc.edu/schools/law/lawreviews/meta-elements/journals/bctwj/22_2/03_FMS.htm

[Details]

I found 3 just in Illinois, should I look more?? Did Dr. Ablow count right???

The Ryan Harris Case 1998 (Two Unnamed Children Falsely Arrested)

In perhaps the most notorious false confession case in Illinois, seven and eight-year-old boys were charged with murdering eleven-year-old Ryan Harris in the South Side neighborhood of Englewood in July of 1998. One boy was only 50 inches tall and weighed 50 pounds. The other was just under four feet tall, weighed 60 pounds, and suffered a speech disorder which made it difficult for him to communicate.
http://www.nacdl.org/public.nsf/01c1e7698280d20385256d0b00789923/4a6e9aa597092057052573ed0056ffa3?OpenDocument
---------------Here is a 10 yr old
An eleven-year-old boy, with no prior criminal background and with no history of violence, was convicted in Chicago in October 1994 of murdering his eighty-three-year-old neighbor. At the time of the murder, A.M. was only ten years old.The only evidence against the boy was an oral confession he gave to Detective James Cassidy, the same detective who obtained the alleged statements from the two little boys in the Ryan Harris case. The initial confession was obtained by Chicago police outside of the presence of the boy’s attorney, parents, relatives, or a youth officer, after a 2-day interrogation.
http://www.law.northwestern.edu/cfjc/falseconfessions.htmlIt didn't sound right to me either. And from this - obviously he wasn't right - because I can add #4 - the Stephanie Crowe case. They got two boys to falsely confess - the third held up to interrogation.

[GentleBreeze]

I thought the boy said he put the gun in the closet?

Can someone tell me if you have to load that gun for each time you shoot it?

Do we know what time he normally gets home from school?

IIRC he said he got off the bus around 4 and I read that his father gets home about 30 minutes later when he gets off work.

Yes, you have to reload the gun each time and you have to take the spent casing out before putting another bullet in. I put the statistics up yesterday in a link on the specifics of the gun. It is a youth model, smaller than an adult's and very lightweight.

[steffaroob4]

It was reported on this forum that the rifle had to be reloaded, for each individual shot.

FOX is reporting that the boy is going home. I hope that is just a rehash of the Thanksgiving furlow.

Thanks, it's so weird, how could he get so may shots off? That seems like he would need the rifle and the ammunition, maybe they stored it all together. I sure wish we could see more forensic information.

I guess I am going to have to listen to those videos again. I don't think I saw the first 12 minutes, I want to see if the asked him about school that day.

I come from a long line of hunters and this just shocks me. My 16 year old doesn't even have the ability to get to his guns, let alone the ammunition.

[Details]

BUT I DIDN’T DO IT: PROTECTING
THE RIGHTS OF JUVENILES
DURING INTERROGATION

Abstract: Juveniles’ susceptibility to suggestion, coupled with their inherent naiveties and immature thought processes, raise considerable doubt as to their ability to understand and exercise their Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination. Furthermore, they are extremely vulnerable to overimplicating themselves in crimes or, even more unfortunate for all involved, confessing to crimes they did not even commit. To protect the rights and interests of juveniles, states must enact several safeguards. This Note suggests, for example, that courts which currently use a totality of the circumstances test to determine whether a juvenile confession is voluntary, and thus not a violation of the Fifth Amendment, should abandon it in favor of a less-flexible per se rule. Additionally, states need to simplify the Miranda warning into language more conducive to juveniles’ comprehension. To increase the reliability of confessions and prevent false confessions altogether, interrogators need to cease using the same interrogation tactics, such as leading questions and the presentation of false evidence, on juveniles as they do on adults.

more here: http://www.bc.edu/schools/law/lawreviews/meta-elements/journals/bctwj/22_2/03_FMS.htmYeah - that last bit especially. The Crowe case - they took the brother, told him they'd found absolute proof he'd done it - his finger prints, his blood (or was it hers) where it proved he was the killer - and since adults told him this, he assumed it was really true, and said that if so, he must have been angry with her, must not have remembered doing it, he guessed. An adult will think and know (most of the time - false confessions happen for them too) that they would have known if they did that, and won't confess. A child believes what an adult says to be true. Especially a good child taught that they should obey and trust police officers and other authorities.

[steffaroob4]

IIRC he said he got off the bus around 4 and I read that his father gets home about 30 minutes later when he gets off work.

Yes, you have to reload the gun each time and you have to take the spent casing out before putting another bullet in. I put the statistics up yesterday in a link on the specifics of the gun. It is a youth model, smaller than an adult's and very lightweight.

Thanks, I saw that picture, I have a similar one of those im my garage. It is an old one from the carnavel days. I just can't get past the fact he is 8, my kids sure could load and reload fast at 12.

Did anyone ever hear the statements from the neighbors that heard the shots?

[GentleBreeze]

A confession is not always needed to convict. Even if he had an adult sitting with him, he could still make up lies. We have good technology to help support what the investigators find at the crime scene.

If it is proved that this kid shot his dad and roommate, society should lock him up somewhere. I don't care if he is 8. Are we to just let him off because he is 8, so that he can grow up and be an adult killer?

If this kid murdered these men, he will never be rehabilitated no matter how much psychotherapy or pills they give him. He will be a repeat offender.

Yes, even Wendy Murphy mentioned that. She said it is not wise at times when trying to get to the truth that the parent or another adult be in the room as the child may feel they have to suppress what they may have seen or know.

What is the rate of recidivism when it comes to juveniles?

But to me the confession even if tossed is not the crux of this case. The Prosecutor right now knows that it may be excluded but they still plan on charging him. Whatever he said or didn't say will become immaterial if the confession is tossed. The forensic evidence found at the scene and the eye and ear witnesses will make this case.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Thanks, I saw that picture, I have a similar one of those im my garage. It is an old one from the carnavel days. I just can't get past the fact he is 8, my kids sure could load and reload fast at 12.

Did anyone ever hear the statements from the neighbors that heard the shots?

You know I have read so much now about this case but I do think I remember that the neighbors heard the shots. I am sure that was the shots fired at Tim Romans who died on the front porch. I don't think anyone heard the first 4 shots that happened inside the home.

If Mr. Romans had heard those shots he would have immediately told his wife about it. He only said that CR was calling to him to come inside that something bad had happened to his dad.

It will be interesting to know what time Mr. Romans hung up from talking with his wife and how quickly afterward did the boy go next door to tell someone had shot them.

imoo

[steffaroob4]

You know I have read so much now about this case but I do think I remember that the neighbors heard the shots. I am sure that was the shots fired at Tim Romans who died on the front porch. I don't think anyone heard the first 4 shots that happened inside the home.

If Mr. Romans had heard those shots he would have immediately told his wife about it. He only said that CR was calling to him to come inside that something bad had happened to his dad.

It will be interesting to know what time Mr. Romans hung up from talking with his wife and how quickly afterward did the boy go next door to tell someone had shot them.

imoo

I guess I am assuming they heard the shots, I seem to remember them saying two 911 calls came in around the same time. I could be wrong.

[GentleBreeze]

I guess I am assuming they heard the shots, I seem to remember them saying two 911 calls came in around the same time. I could be wrong.

Also I think they have witnesses that he did not walk around the block 9 or 10 times as he stated he did but went home when he got off the school bus.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

I guess I am assuming they heard the shots, I seem to remember them saying two 911 calls came in around the same time. I could be wrong.

Hmm that is interesting if true.

That would mean that they heard the shots and it had to be when Romans was killed on the outside porch and then we went next door and told his friend and his dad called 911.

I think the 911 call came in around 5:03 and police were there within a minute or two. So one would have come from the dad of the friend and the other one was probably a neighbor that heard the shots.

So again if true, it seems he got home around 4:00 pm
Dad got in around 4:30 pm.
He said he stayed in the home for 30 minutes...so that would be around 5:00.

imoo

[steffaroob4]

Hmm that is interesting if true.

That would mean that they heard the shots and it had to be when Romans was killed on the outside porch and then we went next door and told his friend and his dad called 911.

I think the 911 call came in around 5:03 and police were there within a minute or two. So one would have come from the dad of the friend and the other one was probably a neighbor that heard the shots.

So again if true, it seems he got home around 4:00 pm
Dad got in around 4:30 pm.
He said he stayed in the home for 30 minutes...so that would be around 5:00.

imoo

It seems he had to be in the house when something happened. I would have liked to seen a profession child advocate in there doing the interview. That young man seems very smart and I think someone with skill could have gotten a lot more out of him, to make some sense of this thing.

[Amy S.]

The police seems to think that they have the right person in custody.

There was no one present for the child because his guardian was dead.

I am not sure what rights the step mom had, but with the father dead, she may not have had any.

This is a town of 3500, way the heck away from a major city. I guess they could have called the state police in, but that still wouldn't have given the little boy any help. Maybe they could have appointed him an attorney, but then they didn't know that he was going to confess.

I am guessing that he was read his rights, before they arrested him.

How awful this whole thing is. One little boy in jail (do they even have juvenile hall?) and 2 fathers dead.

I thought that I read, that the man that was outside, heard pops and a "commotion", while he was on the phone.

And the boy supposedly told the police that were questioning him "I am going to juvie." What did he know about juvie and who had used that term around him?

I have known a few kids that are good as gold in school and holy terrors at home.

[GentleBreeze]

The police seems to think that they have the right person in custody.

There was no one present for the child because his guardian was dead.

I am not sure what rights the step mom had, but with the father dead, she may not have had any.

This is a town of 3500, way the heck away from a major city. I guess they could have called the state police in, but that still wouldn't have given the little boy any help. Maybe they could have appointed him an attorney, but then they didn't know that he was going to confess.

I am guessing that he was read his rights, before they arrested him.

How awful this whole thing is. One little boy in jail (do they even have juvenile hall?) and 2 fathers dead.

I thought that I read, that the man that was outside, heard pops and a "commotion", while he was on the phone.

And the boy supposedly told the police that were questioning him "I am going to juvie." What did he know about juvie and who had used that term around him?

I have known a few kids that are good as gold in school and holy terrors at home.

It sure seems like the police and DA are on top of things.

http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/ss/fromcomments/103117.php

Already they have compiled 30 people on the witness list. That will continue to grow imo.

Prosecutors have disclosed a list of about 30 witnesses they could call to testify in the case and have turned over a police interview with the boy and photographs of the crime scene and autopsies of Romans and Romero. Roca gave attorneys for the boy two weeks to provide disclosure to prosecutors.

No, Mr. Romans never said he heard anything but the boy calling him to come inside.

The State police is also one of the agencies investigating the case and I think the FBI is involved with testing being sent to their labs.
imoo

[GentleBreeze]

It seems he had to be in the house when something happened. I would have liked to seen a profession child advocate in there doing the interview. That young man seems very smart and I think someone with skill could have gotten a lot more out of him, to make some sense of this thing.

Well they have said that these two forensic investigators specializes in interviewing minor children.:shrug:

imoo

[Amy S.]

From November 8th.

The child's father, 29, and a boarder, Tim Romans, 39, were found dead at the family residence about 5 p.m. Wednesday, shortly after neighbors reported the sound of gunfire. The Arizona Republic is withholding the father's and child's names to avoid identifying a juvenile.

[GentleBreeze]

From November 8th.

The child's father, 29, and a boarder, Tim Romans, 39, were found dead at the family residence about 5 p.m. Wednesday, shortly after neighbors reported the sound of gunfire. The Arizona Republic is withholding the father's and child's names to avoid identifying a juvenile.

Thanks, Amy.

imoo

[lonetraveler]

There is just so much not right with the so called "confession". The interviewer is giving the boy the answers to the questions and coercing him to give the answer the interviewer gives him. I'm also questioning the boy's answers on shooting his father to end his suffering. I'm not convinced that this boy fired the first shots. His father, while teaching him to hunt, most likely taught him to always end an animal's suffering if not killed in the first shot. The statement about not letting his father suffer sounded like he was truthful when he answered. There isn't much evidence to support what happened when his father was first shot and by whom.

[GentleBreeze]

There is just so much not right with the so called "confession". The interviewer is giving the boy the answers to the questions and coercing him to give the answer the interviewer gives him. I'm also questioning the boy's answers on shooting his father to end his suffering. I'm not convinced that this boy fired the first shots. His father, while teaching him to hunt, most likely taught him to always end an animal's suffering if not killed in the first shot. The statement about not letting his father suffer sounded like he was truthful when he answered. There isn't much evidence to support what happened when his father was first shot and by whom.

I think there is plenty of evidence, even excluding the confession.

They have time lines.
They have ear witnesses
They have eye witnesses
They know who's fingerprints are on the weapon.
And they know the weapon used on all 8 shots fired.
They have forensic evidence.
They have his clothing he wore that day.

Plus much more imo.

imoo

[bkwits]

I found 3 just in Illinois, should I look more?? Did Dr. Ablow count right???

The Ryan Harris Case 1998 (Two Unnamed Children Falsely Arrested)

In perhaps the most notorious false confession case in Illinois, seven and eight-year-old boys were charged with murdering eleven-year-old Ryan Harris in the South Side neighborhood of Englewood in July of 1998. One boy was only 50 inches tall and weighed 50 pounds. The other was just under four feet tall, weighed 60 pounds, and suffered a speech disorder which made it difficult for him to communicate.
http://www.nacdl.org/public.nsf/01c1e7698280d20385256d0b00789923/4a6e9aa597092057052573ed0056ffa3?OpenDocument
---------------Here is a 10 yr old
An eleven-year-old boy, with no prior criminal background and with no history of violence, was convicted in Chicago in October 1994 of murdering his eighty-three-year-old neighbor. At the time of the murder, A.M. was only ten years old.The only evidence against the boy was an oral confession he gave to Detective James Cassidy, the same detective who obtained the alleged statements from the two little boys in the Ryan Harris case. The initial confession was obtained by Chicago police outside of the presence of the boy’s attorney, parents, relatives, or a youth officer, after a 2-day interrogation.
http://www.law.northwestern.edu/cfjc/falseconfessions.html

Thank you JD. I have mentioned the two little boys accused of murdering Ryan Harris several times on this board. It was totally without any foundation. I don't know how it is in other places, but I have followed a few cases here in No. Illinois. Here, various LEs have a history of extracting false confessions even from adults. They got one poor, distraught dad to confess to accidentally killing his 3 year old daughter, taking her dead body out in the woods, then raping her dead body to make it look like a stranger abduction. I didn't believe that confession when I read it. Well, DNA came back and it was a stranger abduction, rape and murder. The father was completely innocent.

I don't know if this boy shot the two men or not. But I believe that his confession should not be allowed in court. I have to tell you that I am shocked that so many on this board want to lock him up and throw away the key. If it is not possible to rehabilitate an 8-year-old, then that says something about us, as a society. JMO

[Justice_Dawg]

From November 8th.

The child's father, 29, and a boarder, Tim Romans, 39, were found dead at the family residence about 5 p.m. Wednesday, shortly after neighbors reported the sound of gunfire. The Arizona Republic is withholding the father's and child's names to avoid identifying a juvenile.

If he killed them around 4:30, what took the cops so long to get there if neighbors reported gunfire?:confused:

[GentleBreeze]

If he killed them around 4:30, what took the cops so long to get there if neighbors reported gunfire?:confused:

The gunshots were heard around 5 pm........911 was called at 5:03 pm.........the police got there within a minute or two of being called.

IMO He had already killed his dad inside the home around 4:30 and then shot Tim on the porch around 5:00.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Thank you JD. I have mentioned the two little boys accused of murdering Ryan Harris several times on this board. It was totally without any foundation. I don't know how it is in other places, but I have followed a few cases here in No. Illinois. Here, various LEs have a history of extracting false confessions even from adults. They got one poor, distraught dad to confess to accidentally killing his 3 year old daughter, taking her dead body out in the woods, then raping her dead body to make it look like a stranger abduction. I didn't believe that confession when I read it. Well, DNA came back and it was a stranger abduction, rape and murder. The father was completely innocent.

I don't know if this boy shot the two men or not. But I believe that his confession should not be allowed in court. I have to tell you that I am shocked that so many on this board want to lock him up and throw away the key. If it is not possible to rehabilitate an 8-year-old, then that says something about us, as a society. JMO

I haven't seen anyone state they want to lock him up and throw away the key. I haven't even seen anyone state that he should be tried as an adult.:shrug:


imoo

[Mandysmom]

It's very similar - the same type of "I guess I must have..." phrasing around the confession - to me that indicates the false confession - saying what the adults want to hear. The Crowe boys were much older - and still able to be pushed into a confession.

If he did do it - just incredibly unlikely - 8 year olds killing (contrary to the doom and gloom I read here about 'kids nowadays') is incredibly rare. 8 year olds killing their parents - likewise incredibly rare even with abuse. An 8 year old with no record of abuse, no record of violence, trouble in school, etc. suddenly killing two adult men with 4 gunshots each - it's just too unlikely. The confession doesn't prove it for me - they need some solid forensics.

The report of the dead man's wife hearing the child call him into the house - I wonder - was it the child she heard? Or the child's mother - a child's voice sounds similar to a woman's, and family voices sound similar (and hearing someone in the background - you don't hear much of their voice). I could see the child covering for his mother - but to be honest, I think he just confessed because he was being pushed to by the police. 4 gunshots each - that's not an 8 year old. Being a bit flat, unaffected - that's shock - no surprise there - he's suddenly in something no 8 year old knows how to deal with - and death isn't all that real to them.
I agree with what you and January have posted. This is one of the most horrific things I have seen.

Of course an 8 year old child can be easily led into saying whatever they think you want to hear. Add to this the trauma of his father and Mr. Romans being killed and he saw them.

I don't know what to think about whether or not he killed them, I still have my doubts about that, however, he is still a child with a child's mind.

[Justice_Dawg]

It sure seems like the police and DA are on top of things.

http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/ss/fromcomments/103117.php

Already they have compiled 30 people on the witness list. That will continue to grow imo.

Prosecutors have disclosed a list of about 30 witnesses they could call to testify in the case and have turned over a police interview with the boy and photographs of the crime scene and autopsies of Romans and Romero. Roca gave attorneys for the boy two weeks to provide disclosure to prosecutors.

No, Mr. Romans never said he heard anything but the boy calling him to come inside.

The State police is also one of the agencies investigating the case and I think the FBI is involved with testing being sent to their labs.
imoo
This article is talking about this past Wed. the 19th the court released transcripts. I'll believe a transcript before I'll believe hearsay.
That article goes on to say:

Also on Wednesday, the court released transcripts of a Nov. 7 court hearing in which Apache County sheriff's Sgt. Webb Hogle told a prosecutor that Romans' wife urged him to speak with the boy the day after the killings.
-----------------
Romans' wife did wait until the next day!!
That is why the boy was brought in for this so called "interview" the NEXT DAY.


RED FLAG
IMO!

[bkwits]

I haven't seen anyone state they want to lock him up and throw away the key. I haven't even seen anyone state that he should be tried as an adult.:shrug:


imoo

I have inferred that from some posters. IMO

[Details]

I haven't seen anyone state they want to lock him up and throw away the key. I haven't even seen anyone state that he should be tried as an adult.:shrug:


imooSure you have - you replied to the post. It was from Momof6, talking about how he should pay the price, and how he'll be a repeat offender, and she doesn't care if he's only 8. She didn't use the precise words "lock him up and throw away the key" - but that was clearly the intent as I read it.

Other posts earlier in the discussion talk about how it's not right he only can be locked up until 18, and disagree with the judge's decision to try him as a juvenile.


People can be rehabilitated - even adults. An 8 year old - if we give up on rehabilitating him - that's an amazing depth for us to sink to.

[GentleBreeze]

This article is talking about this past Wed. the 19th the court released transcripts. I'll believe a transcript before I'll believe hearsay.
That article goes on to say:

Also on Wednesday, the court released transcripts of a Nov. 7 court hearing in which Apache County sheriff's Sgt. Webb Hogle told a prosecutor that Romans' wife urged him to speak with the boy the day after the killings.
-----------------
Romans' wife did wait until the next day!!
That is why the boy was brought in for this so called "interview" the NEXT DAY.


RED FLAG
IMO!


That is not how I interpret it Justice. She told them to talk to him and they did the next day when they interviewed him. She told them at the funeral home that night were the police was standing guard over the bodies. That was testified to in the first hearing.

From all accounts they must not have talked with him that night probably because it was so late so they interviewed him the next day around 1, iirc.

imoo

[bkwits]

Sure you have - you replied to the post. It was from Momof6, talking about how he should pay the price, and how he'll be a repeat offender, and she doesn't care if he's only 8. She didn't use the precise words "lock him up and throw away the key" - but that was clearly the intent as I read it.

Other posts earlier in the discussion talk about how it's not right he only can be locked up until 18, and disagree with the judge's decision to try him as a juvenile.


People can be rehabilitated - even adults. An 8 year old - if we give up on rehabilitating him - that's an amazing depth for us to sink to.

ITA. Thank you for saying it so clearly and so much better than I. :beer: (Tea)

[Justice_Dawg]

I think there is plenty of evidence, even excluding the confession.

They have time lines.
They have ear witnesses
They have eye witnesses
They know who's fingerprints are on the weapon.
And they know the weapon used on all 8 shots fired.
They have forensic evidence.
They have his clothing he wore that day.

Plus much more imo.

imoo

They will have a problem with the wife knowing 911 was called to the home shortly after 5pm most likely knowing by at least 6 or 7 pm on 11-5-08 that her husband was killed shortly after he hung up with her and her telling a cop about it the Next day 11-06-08.

I want forensics and ballistics and a true timeline.

It bothers me that this boy keeps repeating he walks into smoke. It really does. hammer

[GentleBreeze]

Sure you have - you replied to the post. It was from Momof6, talking about how he should pay the price, and how he'll be a repeat offender, and she doesn't care if he's only 8. She didn't use the precise words "lock him up and throw away the key" - but that was clearly the intent as I read it.

Other posts earlier in the discussion talk about how it's not right he only can be locked up until 18, and disagree with the judge's decision to try him as a juvenile.


People can be rehabilitated - even adults. An 8 year old - if we give up on rehabilitating him - that's an amazing depth for us to sink to.

Has the Judge agreed to that? I thought the Prosecutors have to let him know that within 15 days of yesterday's hearing?

I have continued to say it is not up to me to decided. I presume the Judge presiding over the case will decide what is to be done.

As far as I know the evaluation has not been done yet so I don't think any of us really know if he can be rehabilitated or can't. I certainly have seen psychologists testify that have said "no" in past cases. So until that is determined we really don't know either way.

imoo