8-Year-Old Arrested In Double-Homicide

[GentleBreeze]

They will have a problem with the wife knowing 911 was called to the home shortly after 5pm most likely knowing by at least 6 or 7 pm on 11-5-08 that her husband was killed shortly after he hung up with her and her telling a cop about it the Next day 11-06-08.

I want forensics and ballistics and a true timeline.

It bothers me that this boy keeps repeating he walks into smoke. It really does. hammer

Why is that? They have Tim's cell phone and will subpoena his phone records showing when he hung up and when the neighbor heard the gunshots around 5 pm.:shrug:

imo

[Justice_Dawg]

Why is that? They have Tim's cell phone and will subpoena his phone records showing when he hung up and when the neighbor heard the gunshots around 5 pm.:shrug:

imo

Why didn't she tell them right away? "Come here Tim, Something is wrong with Dad" Is a Red Flag to me!!
Why did she tell them the next day?
We will wait for records on that I guess.

I also have a problem with the shell casing being outside. Didn't that bother you?

Where exactly was Tim's body found? Where were his wounds. I know Vincent was chest and head. TIA

One of my friends said very close range shots for Vincent, Like execution style. Is that true? They heard it on TV. :shrug:

TIA and MOO :seeya:

[Justice_Dawg]

UPDATE PEOPLES! :seeya:

UPDATE: Thursday, Nov. 20

ST. JOHNS -- A dependency hearing ended with the judge dismissing the petition on Thursday afternoon.

As long as the child remains in custody at the Apache County Detention Center, there is no rush to determine who will have custody of him and be his caretaker.

The 8-year-old boy is accused in the slayings of his father and another man in rural eastern Arizona. He faces two counts of premeditated murder in the deaths of his father, 29-year-old Vincent Romero, and 39-year-old Timothy Romans, who was renting a room in the family's two-story home in St. Johns.

The Apache County prosecutor's office released a police interview with the boy in which he admits to firing at least two shots each at Romero and Romans.

The boy's defense attorney has said he believes prosecutors will have a problem getting the boy's statements accepted in court because the boy was not represented by a family member or attorney during the interview.

The boy's health and state of mind was also the focus of Wednesday's hearing. The judge ordered DNA tests to be done and that X-rays be taken to make sure the boy was not abused. The judge also said the boy can be with his mom during Thanksgiving. He will be let out of the center at noon the Wednesday before Thanksgiving for 48 hours.

A counselor was appointed to the boy has someone to talk to while in juvenile detention.

http://www.azfamily.com/news/homepagetopstory/stories/phoenix-local-news-110708-double-murder.18c702709.html

[GentleBreeze]

Why didn't she tell them right away? "Come here Tim, Something is wrong with Dad" Is a Red Flag to me!!
Why did she tell them the next day?
We will wait for records on that I guess.

I also have a problem with the shell casing being outside. Didn't that bother you?

Where exactly was Tim's body found? Where were his wounds. I know Vincent was chest and head. TIA

One of my friends said very close range shots for Vincent, Like execution style. Is that true? They heard it on TV. :shrug:

TIA and MOO :seeya:

Where did she tell them the next day. She asked them to ask him about it and they interviewed him the next day. It wouldnt surprise me if both were shot at pretty close range.

There was a link to what the officer testified to in the Nov. 12th hearing and he stated he was at the funeral home that night guarding the bodies and that is when she told him that they needed to ask the boy questions because he was there when something bad happened to her husband.

I'll see if the link is still available.

I dont know but the autopsy reports have been turned over to the defense. Tim was found on the front porch.

imoo

[Crispy]

Why didn't she tell them right away? "Come here Tim, Something is wrong with Dad" Is a Red Flag to me!!
Why did she tell them the next day?
We will wait for records on that I guess.

I also have a problem with the shell casing being outside. Didn't that bother you?

Where exactly was Tim's body found? Where were his wounds. I know Vincent was chest and head. TIA

One of my friends said very close range shots for Vincent, Like execution style. Is that true? They heard it on TV. :shrug:

TIA and MOO :seeya:

Good post!! I really need to see some evidence in this case before I make up my mind. Something about it doesn't sit right with me. The confession, IMO, is out because as soon as he stopped being a "witness" and started being a "suspect" they should have stopped the questioning.

ETA: Maybe when CW gets back she can make this it's own forum so there can be a place for links and such!!

[Justice_Dawg]

Thank you for this update, Justice Dawg. Although this is not the news I had hoped to hear, at least a counselor has been appointed to talk to this boy while he is in detention. Every day he is in that wreched place is doing damage to him which will never be reversed. This boy should be release immediately and this whole case thrown out. I read a few news articles online today confirming about what you posted about the wife waiting one full day before mentioning to police the so called conversation she overhead. I will try to find the links to the news sources if I can. I know lots of lawyers are on television and in the newspapers saying the same thing. Release this boy, this is a railroad job.


You are very welcome!
I bet that place is full of teenagers. That would scare an 8 yr old. I am happy he won't be alone.

[GentleBreeze]

LOL I see January beat me to it but now I understand what you are saying, Justice.

If he was relieving another deputy it was probably early the next morning when the officer came on duty. The family may have been notified that is where the bodies had been taken so they began showing up there and that is when she told him. She lives 170 miles away from where they were killed.

I don't see anything odd about it. All the police was knee deep at the crime scene and no families would be allowed there or on the property so the first chance she got she told the officer. She didn't even really know what it meant but she did want him to be asked about it and that is totally understandable.

She had no way of knowing he was going to lie about saying her husband's body was seen first before CR found his dad, so he said.

http://www.zwire.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=20190155&BRD=2264&PAG=461&dept_id=505965&rfi=8

Excerpt:

The final officer to take the stand was Apache County Sheriff's Sgt. Web Hogle. He said his involvement occurred the following day when he relieved another deputy who had retained the chain of custody of the bodies throughout the night at a nearby funeral home. He testified that although the bodies were still fully clothed, he was able to observe what appeared to be 22-caliber pin-point size holes in several locations on their clothing.
Hogle said several members of the Romans family arrived at the funeral home while he was there. He pulled a couple family members aside in an attempt to calm them down, and it was during that time that Romans' wife said her husband called her right after he got home from work. While discussing work and other topics with her husband, she told the officer she could hear the 8-year-old boy in the background yelling at her husband, "Tim, I need you to come in here, something's wrong with dad. Tim, come in the house, something's wrong." Hogel said Ms. Romans insisted the officers talk to the youngster - "He knows something; he was there when something bad happened to my husband. Make sure that they talk to him about this." Ms. Romans said the last thing her husband said to her was that the Romero youngster said something was wrong and he needed to go look into it.




imo

[Justice_Dawg]

Also on Wednesday, the court released transcripts of a Nov. 7 court hearing in which Apache County sheriff's Sgt. Webb Hogle told a prosecutor that the wife of the second victim urged him to speak with the boy the day after the killings.

She had been on the phone with her husband just before he was killed.

"She said she could hear (the boy) in the background yelling, 'Tim, I need you to come in here. Something's wrong with Dad,' " Hogle said. "She told me, she says, 'You need to talk to that little boy. He knows something. He was there when something bad happened to my husband.' "


Reporter Daniel Gonzales and the Associated Press contributed to this article.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/11/20/20081120boyconfession.html

That is ones Interpretation.
My Interpretation is that the wife urged him to speak with the boy the day after the killings
Your Interpretation, the wife urged him to speak with the boy the day after the killings(Meaning she said it the day/night before)

Someone should have grabbed the boy minutes after being told something like that.

Am I right? Or No? :D

[bkwits]

I did read another article with a quote from his lawyer, saying that he is almost in isolation, with no contact with other children in the facility but no tv or games or anything constructive to do. So I don't know which is the worst of two evils. Putting an adult in isolation can cause insanity, let alone an 8 year old boy. Placing him in contact with older kids may result in physical harming of this child. The attorney went on to say that he is not doing well, he is scared and has trouble sleeping at night. It is more than likely that the counselor will not be available to him 24/7 but more than likely on a schedule of once a day or less. My 8 year old family member still sleeps with a teddy bear. I wonder if they let this boy have something to comfort him- his blanket, his stuffed animal, his pillow, anything, while he sits in this facility and wastes.

That is so sad. Do you remember that case a few years ago when the small boy killed his dad or someone (I think the boy was 12, but small for his age). I am wracking my brain trying to remember it. I think he was being tried as an adult. It was on Court TV, Oprah got involved. But I just can't remember any more details.

[GentleBreeze]

I am saddened to see some people here standing ready with the noose picking out a branch to hang this boy from. How sad. There is so much "evidence" in this case that doesn't add up to this little boy committing this crime. The idea of relying on an angry woman claiming to have overheard some conversation that may or may not have happened (checking the cellphone records proves NADA) to convict a little boy is so twisted. I would like to see the forensics in this case and I would like to see this child released in the custody of a responsible adult if nothis case thrown out altogether. He must be so incredibly scared. Where is the hard evidence linking this particular boy to this crime? And where are your hearts?

See this is what I don't understand......you berated me today and accused me of doing the very same thing you now are doing.

How do you know this woman was angry? How do you know she wasn't one of the family members that was so overwrought with grief that the officer mentioned in his testimony? Did she accuse the boy of anything? No, she did not. I think of her having to make that 170 mile trip knowing that life as she had known it for 20 years was over and my heart weeps for this woman.

Yes checking the phone record will be very important. If he hung up at a certain time and then just a minute or two later the shots rang out that was heard by the neighbors it will be very important evidence and will bolster Mrs. Romans' credibility even more that something bad happened to her husband right after he went to the aide of this boy who was calling him to come inside.

Do you really expect the hard evidence to already be known in a case this young? I have never known a case that has forensic evidence or circumstantial evidence revealed this quickly. Why would you expect it with this case? Now if we knew who the 30 witnesses are that the Prosecutor has on their list we may know more but until it proceeds just like any case the evidence will come where it is needed and that is at trial, if there is one.

[momof6]

I did not say to lock him up and throw away the key. You need to read better.

I said if he is convicted.........They should not let him roam umongst other citizens.

I don't think he could be rehabilitated (if he did this). He will have to live with the fact that he killed these men for the rest of his life. I don't think he will live a normal life with himself, unless he does not have a concience.

Maybe an institution of some kind (if convicted). I did not say lock him in jail.

[Justice_Dawg]

That is ones Interpretation.
My Interpretation is that the wife urged him to speak with the boy the day after the killings
Your Interpretation, the wife urged him to speak with the boy the day after the killings(Meaning she said it the day/night before)

Someone should have grabbed the boy minutes after being told something like that.

Am I right? Or No? :D
OMG!! This post was for GentleBreeze, NOT JANUARY! SO SORRY! :chicken:

[GentleBreeze]

OMG!! This post was for GentleBreeze, NOT JANUARY! SO SORRY! :chicken:


:lol: :tongue:

[GentleBreeze]

OMG!! This post was for GentleBreeze, NOT JANUARY! SO SORRY! :chicken:

I thought you might find this interesting.

I am going to paraphrase it because it is from an AP article.

http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cache:LwjbAuTTbr4J:hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/AZ_CHILD_CHARGED_AZOL-%3FSITE%3DAZYUM%26SECTION%3DSTATE%26TEMPLATE%3DDEF AULT%26CTIME%3D2008-11-19-02-01-05+crime+scene+photos+Romero+and+Romans&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=12&gl=us

Crime scene photos showed Tim Romans sprawled on the front porch. Vincent Romero was dressed in a plaid jacket, construction helmet and boots. He was laying face down on the stairs going up to the second floor. Both men had pools of blood around their heads.

VR hadn't even been home long enough to take his construction helmet off before he was shot, imo.

[Justice_Dawg]

I have no problem because we are thankfully on the same page with this entire travesty.
Yes we are. :biggrin:

[NoMisbehavin]

I did not say to lock him up and throw away the key. You need to read better.

I said if he is convicted.........They should not let him roam umongst other citizens.

I don't think he could be rehabilitated (if he did this). He will have to live with the fact that he killed these men for the rest of his life. I don't think he will live a normal life with himself, unless he does not have a concience.

Maybe an institution of some kind (if convicted). I did not say lock him in jail.

By all means lock him up in some institution at the young age of eight years old, don't bother to find out what caused him to act out like he did if he indeed did. Don't give him a second chance, I mean after all he has already been deemed a cold blooded murderer with not chance of rehabilitation. :rolleyes:

We are talking about a 8 year old child, what child has so much anger or discord on his mind to kill to people, that's what need to be checked into, why when a small child should be living a good life during his childhood years found it necessary if he indeed did do it kill two adults.

Something more is at issue here than a 8 year old killing to adults IMO. He doesn't deserve to be treated as an adult or for that matter even a teen that has done the same.

I would feel different if this child had a background of acting out, there is nothing to that affect. So what went wrong and why did this happen.

He's not an adult he's a child and needs to be treated as such. JMO

[Crispy]

Thanks for the link. I had been looking for the transcripts. I have read all of the first and most of the second. I know this hearing was done early on, but it sounds like they didn't look too hard for the white car and they didn't have the interviews from work, where he was a boss, and having problems. Anyway, going back to reading. :read:

[Kara]

Gentlebreeze, how deplorable of you to post the name of this minor child on these boards. I should report you but I have a feeling that I won't have to do that because given enough rope you will eventually hang yourself out to dry. Shame on you. This is a minor and this was totally inappropriate.Ocean!!! I completely agree with January that is it completely wrong of you to post this child's name.

We all know that you have never met an innocent suspect/defendant...but please!!! This is a juvenile!! An 8 year old!!

(yeah, I know in your world 8 year olds are completely able to formulate evil plans while disobeying the rules laid down by their parents...but I think the law still protects juveniles no matter how evil they might be in the jaded, blue eyes of the Ocean)

[bkwits]

Apparently the child spent time alone in a house with unsecured firearms and available ammunition. And his father taught him how to shoot and reload at least one weapon. A recipe for disaster, IMO.

[v8433]

That is so sad. Do you remember that case a few years ago when the small boy killed his dad or someone (I think the boy was 12, but small for his age). I am wracking my brain trying to remember it. I think he was being tried as an adult. It was on Court TV, Oprah got involved. But I just can't remember any more details.


Alex and Derek King is who I believe you are referring to.. Sad case as well.

[GentleBreeze]

Gentlebreeze, how deplorable of you to post the name of this minor child on these boards. I should report you but I have a feeling that I won't have to do that because given enough rope you will eventually hang yourself out to dry. Shame on you. This is a minor and this was totally inappropriate.

Well the very AZ Court that is over his case used HIS name, January.

I was only trying to be helpful and copied it exactly as it is listed on the AZ COURT website!!!!!!



imoo

[Justice_Dawg]

I thought you might find this interesting.

I am going to paraphrase it because it is from an AP article.

http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cache:LwjbAuTTbr4J:hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/AZ_CHILD_CHARGED_AZOL-%3FSITE%3DAZYUM%26SECTION%3DSTATE%26TEMPLATE%3DDEF AULT%26CTIME%3D2008-11-19-02-01-05+crime+scene+photos+Romero+and+Romans&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=12&gl=us

Crime scene photos showed Tim Romans sprawled on the front porch. Vincent Romero was dressed in a plaid jacket, construction helmet and boots. He was laying face down on the stairs going up to the second floor. Both men had pools of blood around their heads.

VR hadn't even been home long enough to take his construction helmet off before he was shot, imo.

Thank you.

Nobody saw Tim get shot and land on the front porch? No witnesses? I haven't heard of any.
Odd. :confused:

[GentleBreeze]

[QUOTE=Kara;12446490][/QUOTE

BS!

Well this law website didn't protect his name. They LISTED his name and it comes directly from the Court that is over his case. :rolleyes:

[GentleBreeze]

Thank you.

Nobody saw Tim get shot and land on the front porch? No witnesses? I haven't heard of any.
Odd. :confused:

The people across the street heard the shots. It is long but I am reading the hearing transcripts on the first hearing.

imoo

[Justice_Dawg]

Well the very AZ Court that is over his case used HIS name, January.

I was only trying to be helpful and copied it exactly as it is listed on the AZ COURT website!!!!!!



imoo

That info should be sealed. What is wrong with these people? That is so easy to track down. I didn't try because I thought they may be smart enough to seal this case and protect this child. All he needs is a Casey Anthony lynch mob. :rolleyes:
To bad they couldn't get to Casey Anthony:biggrin:
This boy needs to be left alone.

Anyway,

The judge has issued an order of protection:

Also during Wednesday's hearing, the defense's request for a 48-hour furlough so the juvenile can spend Thanksgiving with his family was granted. The court also issued an order of protection prohibiting the juvenile and family from being contacted or harassed.

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20202868&BRD=2264&PAG=461&dept_id=505965&rfi=6

Sigh of relief. :)

[Crispy]

Just finished reading the transcripts. Maybe because I didn't see the pictures, but I'm confused as to how the screen had a shot through it that went from the outside to the inside. It just didn't make sense when I read it. I'm gonna go find the pics of the house again to get a better feel for it. jmo

[GentleBreeze]

That info should be sealed. What is wrong with these people? That is so easy to track down. I didn't try because I thought they may be smart enough to seal this case and protect this child. All he needs is a Casey Anthony lynch mob. :rolleyes:
To bad they couldn't get to Casey Anthony
This boy needs to be left alone.

Anyway,

The judge has issued an order of protection:

Also during Wednesday's hearing, the defense's request for a 48-hour furlough so the juvenile can spend Thanksgiving with his family was granted. The court also issued an order of protection prohibiting the juvenile and family from being contacted or harassed.

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20202868&BRD=2264&PAG=461&dept_id=505965&rfi=6

Sigh of relief. :)

That is good to know. The media would be right with them wherever they tried to go, stalking them.

I didn't mean any harm. If his name had not been listed on the actual Court site, itself, I would never have put his name up there. If it was against the law then it wouldn't be on their legal site. But then his name was in the obit for his dad too.

His name is listed all through the transcripts.

Maybe the Judge knows that everyone in that area already knows his name and it isn't a secret.:shrug:

imoo

[Justice_Dawg]

Just finished reading the transcripts. Maybe because I didn't see the pictures, but I'm confused as to how the screen had a shot through it that went from the outside to the inside. It just didn't make sense when I read it. I'm gonna go find the pics of the house again to get a better feel for it. jmo

I saw that in a crime scene photo this AM.

Click on Photos - Crime scene inside house.

It is photo # 2

http://www.azfamily.com/news/homepagetopstory/stories/phoenix-local-news-110708-double-murder.18c702709.html

[bkwits]

Alex and Derek King is who I believe you are referring to.. Sad case as well.

Yes, that is the one. With that deplorable adult male "friend." Thank you.

[Kara]

Just finished reading the transcripts. Maybe because I didn't see the pictures, but I'm confused as to how the screen had a shot through it that went from the outside to the inside. It just didn't make sense when I read it. I'm gonna go find the pics of the house again to get a better feel for it. jmo
Can you link me to the transcripts cuz I'm having no luck getting the video to play. I mean, it plays for a minute or two and then gets stuck buffering. When it restarts, it goes back to the beginning so I've seen/heard the beginning of the video numerous times, but I can't get past that.

TIA

[Amy S.]

Local TV keeps showing crime scene pictures of a wall that is full of bullet holes. I count ten and maybe more.

Does anyone know if a .22 would generally travel through a body? And I would have thought that the dad would have been shot additional times after he fell, not still standing after 10 times.

I'm not able to bring up some of the sites, people are linking here, but I will keep trying.

I am still feeling like maybe the boy was shooting his gun, inside the house and did accidently shoot his dad (the first time.)

[Justice_Dawg]

The people across the street heard the shots. It is long but I am reading the hearing transcripts on the first hearing.

imoo

Now that you read them, what do you think?

Blood droplets found on the driveway leading up to where Tim was found.

He was shot in the driveway, and staggered to the porch and was shot again on the porch.

hmmmmmmm

[Justice_Dawg]

Question: Does a child under the age of 18 have civil/constitutional rights? If the police suspected this kid as the shooter before the second interview took place, (and I believe I read somewhere that one of the officers admitted to that under oath) and did not read his miranda or inform him that he had the right to his parents and an attorney or any rights at all, before they started the questioning the second time, that would make the "confession" void. Without the miranda at the confession, doesn't that void the arrest too and then you have to let the suspect go and start all over? I have seen this a few times with adults on Law and Order and The Shield and cop movies where the arrest is "bad" and they have to release the suspect right then and there. Isn't that the way it works? If this is true, does this procedure apply to a child? If it does, why isn't anyone filing paperwork to get this kid out of jail. Since I read somewhere that in Arizona there is no age limit for minors to be arrested, I would think that then the adult rules apply to him as well. Can anyone answer?
I have more for you, (I am still reading) but..I can tell you his family members were right outside the door but forbidden to go into the room with him. They did ask if they could. They were told :no:

[Amy S.]

Here's link to the comments that are being made in the local paper. It is generally just more arguing. Most of the locals aren't talking.

http://www.zwire.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=20190155&brd=2264&pag=797&dept_id=505965&startrow=11&maxrows=10

[Justice_Dawg]

I also read the transcripts (I didn't want to admit it, but...) and I think there is so much evidence that does not link this boy to the crime that it speaks volumes. I have several things I would like to address about these transcripts. First of the all first police officer admitting that reason they questioned the boy the second time was based on this statement by the victim's wife that she overheard the boy's voice in the background. That statement was made THE DAY AFTER the murder. I have to question the validity of that. Secondly that officer admits that she then considered him somewhat of a suspect which the lawyer drags out of her during her testimony. If that is the case, she was supposed to miranda the boy and advise him of his rights. She admits she didn't do that and then goes on to flip-flop about him being "a victim". That goes to her credibility or lack thereof in my book. My question above as to why someone isn't filing papers of a bad arrest and let this boy immediately go are above. Third, when both of the police admit in open court that the only evidence they have linking this boy directly to the crime, is this statement from the victims wife and the "confession tape". If the confession is invalid, where is the evidence? They have none. Third, the white car that this boy describes, he is pretty descriptive about the wheels being unique. Let me ask this. Why did the police not investigate or put out an APB or something about this white car, but rather she admits in open court that they did nothing to pursue that lead. Why? Fourth, on what basis does the Judge find probable cause if he heard the testimony that no miranda was given, he has to automatically deduct the arrest was no good. Why hold him over for trial? Based on what? A cop that all but admits the arrest was no good? That the boy was never given his rights? That the questioning and the tape is no good? On what evidence? Finally, I think the reason that I am so emotional and passionate about this case is that this could have been any body's child, grandchild, nephew, niece or minor family member. Here is a link of numerous cases where kids were not given their miranda before they were arrested. http://www.familyrightsassociation.com/info/law/all_about_miranda/juvenile_confessions.htm
Anyone who is a parent or grandparent out there should be scared. When the law enforcement decides uninaterally to deny people their rights, it becomes a police state and when that happens anything goes. We have seen this in the 60's when the cops broke all the rules including shooting into crowds and killing innocent people. This truly scares me.I was up until 3:30 am reading them. :tongue:

Did you catch,
"Tim was talking to his wife when the car pulled up"

----------Gross LE misconduct. Yes, an APB should have been issued right away on the boys description that it was white and unique by missing back hubcaps. Especially now that we know Tim also told his wife a "car" pulled up. That is two witnesses to the car, the wife was told by Tim a car pulled up and the boy described a white compact "car" with no back hubcaps.

I am baffled on the miranda rights. I'd love to know the reason the boy hasn't been released yet.

LE also testified that the boys (so called) confession did NOT match the crime scene. These men were shot more than 4 or 5 times each.
Tim was shot at least 5 times outside the house. He never even made it into the house.

If you ask me, I'd say LE better get to looking for a white car.

JMHO

[Justice_Dawg]

This is totally an improper arrest. What is wrong with this Judge that he cannot see that and continues to abuse this innocent child? I also have so much contempt for the prosecutor who insists he is going take this all the way to the moon if he has to. By already preparing an appeal in the case (I suppose he already knows there is not enough evidence on this kid and they are going to lose) speaks volumes as to where he is out of control on this. What's the matter. Doesn't Arizona have any ADULT criminals they can be railroading, that they have to resort to innocent children? What is wrong with this picture. And where are the civil rights advocates now that we need them?That hearing was held on Nov.7th
I think the judge is just waiting now that he has more info. He is letting the boy out for the holiday, so we know something is up. :)
--------First off:
They never called in State Police. IMO That was their first mistake.
I don't want to hurt any feelings here but local cops are not trained (in this case they all seem to be rookies...5 yrs or less on the force. The head LE (Rodriguez) couldn't even talk about brain matter without feeling sick on the stand OMG!) to handle this type of crime scene.

In a double homicide, it is my experience that State police even FBI be called in right away.

I think Gloria Allred (not that I like her much, but she speaks her mind) should step up to the plate. Her daughter is all over the airways saying how WRONG the interrogation of this child was.

[Justice_Dawg]

Here's link to the comments that are being made in the local paper. It is generally just more arguing. Most of the locals aren't talking.

http://www.zwire.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=20190155&brd=2264&pag=797&dept_id=505965&startrow=11&maxrows=10

Thanks for that link. My giggle for the day is a post from someone named Susan.

L or Larry
When someone disagrees with you, don't whimper and cry. This needs to be reviewed. PLEASE! And don't ask that their posts be removed, however offensive that you feel it is. Just because I called you the village idiot is not a reason to have my posts removed, etc. Are you to afraid of a review of this investigation? Please explain why it should not be reviewed...Everyone is saying the same thing. READ THE POSTS!
Susan from Lakeside, Lakeside, AZ
:lol:
:biggrin:

[SeeksJustice]

That is so sad. Do you remember that case a few years ago when the small boy killed his dad or someone (I think the boy was 12, but small for his age). I am wracking my brain trying to remember it. I think he was being tried as an adult. It was on Court TV, Oprah got involved. But I just can't remember any more details.


If you are referring to the 12 year old boy than it is not Derek or Alex King but Christopher Pittman. He shot his grandfather and was one of the most publicized case of juvenile injustice that has come to pass. The fact that he was on a medication that was not approved to be used on children, was given to him off-lable and was switched without proper steps being taken during the switching of SSRIs, to then find him guilty WITHOUT a reasonable doubt will remain a scar on our juvenile justice system for a long time.

This 8 year old boy may face the same fate as Christopher if he is charged as an adult but I believe I read here that they have decided to try him as a juvenile.

Our country has taken up a horrible practice of trying very young children, especially those who have no history of violence, as adults and there are those who actually believe that a child actually understands the actions know as "premediated".

The "interviewing" of children without an attorney, parent or guardian is one of the worse things that can happen to any of these children.

No one knows for sure what happened in that house, what the real relationship with his father and step-mother was like and/or if this boy actually did kill. If so, the real question is why? Why would a child do such a thing?

Children are being tried as adults and are spending their LIFE in adult prisons. Being sentenced to LIFE, and LIFE WITHOUT PAROLE, is far different from an adult receiving such a sentence. Again, the majority of these children have committed acts of violence for the first time and received such sentences. Our juvenile justice system is completely flawed.

I understand that there ARE children out there who are "repeat offenders" and they perhaps should be tried as adults but there circumstances, past behavior and even age are not mitigating factors when deciding whether to try a child in juvenile or adult court. Then when you think of the individual state laws, you just have to hope and pray that someone opens their eyes and realizes, hey, this is a child! What has gone wrong?

This is an issue that I have very strong feeling about. I work with alot of people who are trying to reform the Juvenile Justice system and I advocate for children who have no voice anymore...especially Christopher Pittman. I correspond with him and his family and they are still devastated that he received such a sentence.

I hope that this case is investigated to the fullest and ALL of the evidence is gathered properly. It is very easy for the state to "railroad" juveniles...way too easy.

[Justice_Dawg]

Good morning, Justice Dawg! I skimmed through alot of the transcript after reading the first officer's testimony so I completely missed that. Who said that to whom or point me to where I can read that exerpt. Every day this baby is in custody in that horrific place and away from his family, he is having emotional and mental abuse on him that will never be fixed. This boy has been imprisoned for 2 weeks based on what? My heart breaks for this boy every night I lay in my own comfortable bed and envision him on a dirty cot somewhere crying for his mother or his teddy bear or to just go home.

After reading the transcripts, the boys detention is based on an overzealous local police dept. and DA.

Check your PM's :seeya:

[bkwits]

I've said many times in the past that children have no rights. They let adults accused of murder out on bail. They read adults their Miranda rights. The earlier statements by local LE that they were questioning the boy as a witness when he suddenly blurted out the confession is now exposed as totally untrue. I am reserving judgment about whether this child killed the two men, as I believe LE should have done until they investigated more thoroughly.

[bkwits]

If you are referring to the 12 year old boy than it is not Derek or Alex King but Christopher Pittman. He shot his grandfather and was one of the most publicized case of juvenile injustice that has come to pass. The fact that he was on a medication that was not approved to be used on children, was given to him off-lable and was switched without proper steps being taken during the switching of SSRIs, to then find him guilty WITHOUT a reasonable doubt will remain a scar on our juvenile justice system for a long time.

This 8 year old boy may face the same fate as Christopher if he is charged as an adult but I believe I read here that they have decided to try him as a juvenile.

Our country has taken up a horrible practice of trying very young children, especially those who have no history of violence, as adults and there are those who actually believe that a child actually understands the actions know as "premediated".

The "interviewing" of children without an attorney, parent or guardian is one of the worse things that can happen to any of these children.

No one knows for sure what happened in that house, what the real relationship with his father and step-mother was like and/or if this boy actually did kill. If so, the real question is why? Why would a child do such a thing?

Children are being tried as adults and are spending their LIFE in adult prisons. Being sentenced to LIFE, and LIFE WITHOUT PAROLE, is far different from an adult receiving such a sentence. Again, the majority of these children have committed acts of violence for the first time and received such sentences. Our juvenile justice system is completely flawed.

I understand that there ARE children out there who are "repeat offenders" and they perhaps should be tried as adults but there circumstances, past behavior and even age are not mitigating factors when deciding whether to try a child in juvenile or adult court. Then when you think of the individual state laws, you just have to hope and pray that someone opens their eyes and realizes, hey, this is a child! What has gone wrong?

This is an issue that I have very strong feeling about. I work with alot of people who are trying to reform the Juvenile Justice system and I advocate for children who have no voice anymore...especially Christopher Pittman. I correspond with him and his family and they are still devastated that he received such a sentence.

I hope that this case is investigated to the fullest and ALL of the evidence is gathered properly. It is very easy for the state to "railroad" juveniles...way too easy.

Thank you. I applaud you for your caring and concern. Too many people are willing to throw these children away. Where is our compassion and justice for them?

[Justice_Dawg]

Thank you. I applaud you for your caring and concern. Too many people are willing to throw these children away. Where is our compassion and justice for them?


This is on the front page of azfamily.com

Court throws out juvenile's confession of killing 9 people
TUCSON -- A federal appeals court has ruled that a juvenile's 1991 confession in the 1991 killings of nine people at a Buddhist temple near Phoenix was involuntary.The ruling on Johnathan Doody's appeal means that the then-17-year-old's murder convictions will be overturned and he'll be freed unless he's retried or the government successfully appeals.

----------------UNREAL what AZ is doing to these kids! :flamemad:

[bkwits]

This is on the front page of azfamily.com

Court throws out juvenile's confession of killing 9 people
TUCSON -- A federal appeals court has ruled that a juvenile's 1991 confession in the 1991 killings of nine people at a Buddhist temple near Phoenix was involuntary.The ruling on Johnathan Doody's appeal means that the then-17-year-old's murder convictions will be overturned and he'll be freed unless he's retried or the government successfully appeals.

----------------UNREAL what AZ is doing to these kids! :flamemad:

Well, it is not only in AZ. Remember the Ryan Harris case in Chicago. LE got two little boys, 7 and 8 years-old, to say that they hit the 11 year-old girl with a brick to steal her bicycle. They then said, with LE prompting of course, that they moved her body some distance. The whole story sounded fishy to me and many others, The boys were very small and Ryan was large for her age. The boys had no representation, no adult, other than LE with them. The grandmother of one boy was outside the interrogation room asking to be allowed in.

Of course the whole thing was bogus. Ryan had been raped and murdered by a madman when she was on her way to the store for her mom. What a waste of time and resources to manufacture a confession from these two little boys.
:flamemad:

[Justice_Dawg]

Well, it is not only in AZ. Remember the Ryan Harris case in Chicago. LE got two little boys, 7 and 8 years-old, to say that they hit the 11 year-old girl with a brick to steal her bicycle. They then said, with LE prompting of course, that they moved her body some distance. The whole story sounded fishy to me and many others, The boys were very small and Ryan was large for her age. The boys had no representation, no adult, other than LE with them. The grandmother of one boy was outside the interrogation room asking to be allowed in.

Of course the whole thing was bogus. Ryan had been raped and murdered by a madman when she was on her way to the store for her mom. What a waste of time and resources to manufacture a confession from these two little boys.
:flamemad:
I am sure those boys will have a hard time trusting people for the rest of their lives. Therapy or not, it will always be in the back of their minds.

I still think the WM3 are innocent. LE got one confesson from one of the boys. The very low IQ boy, and made up the rest of the case against all 3 from there :flamemad:

[SeeksJustice]

Thank you. I applaud you for your caring and concern. Too many people are willing to throw these children away. Where is our compassion and justice for them?


We should ALL be concerned. I fear for ANY child that gets caught up in the juvenile justice system.

What I find most disturbing, and mostly heard from Christians, is the quick call for "locking them up and throwing away the key" and the insistance that there is no rehibilitation for these children. That they are "monster" and are "evil". They feel no compassion for these children.

There are children who have extensive "records". Children who, for whatever reason, have choosen to repeatedly break laws and behave violently towards others but you cannot lump ALL children into the same category and judge them all the same. It is the ones that have had no prior records, no troubles in school, are "good" kids, that are being "thrown away" and left to deal with the situation of being placed in an adult prison where they WILL be preyed upon. They become "the forgotten".

As I always say to those who are quick to judge them....

Judge not lest ye be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, if we judge with an evil heart or dark intent, His judgment of us will reflect it...

Paraphrasing Matthew 7:2-5

[SeeksJustice]

This is on the front page of azfamily.com

Court throws out juvenile's confession of killing 9 people
TUCSON -- A federal appeals court has ruled that a juvenile's 1991 confession in the 1991 killings of nine people at a Buddhist temple near Phoenix was involuntary.The ruling on Johnathan Doody's appeal means that the then-17-year-old's murder convictions will be overturned and he'll be freed unless he's retried or the government successfully appeals.

----------------UNREAL what AZ is doing to these kids! :flamemad:


This is a more detailed story of that.

http://sandiego.cox.net/cci/newsnational/national?_mode=view&_state=maximized&view=article&id=D94J19UG0&_action=validatearticle

Copyright © 2008 Cox Communications, Inc.

[SeeksJustice]

The evidence that they have gathered at the crime scene DOES NOT match the statement that this kid made. The facts don't add up. What happened to innocent until proven otherwise? This kid has never been in trouble before and has never had a problem in school or anywhere else. The sad part is that after months of trauma that this boy is enduring day after day in that detention center, when he is finally exonerated, everyone in LE will just go about with their jobs and go back to their lovely little lives while this kid will never recover from this trauma.

There appear to be many troubling factors to this case. You are also dealing with a "small town" police department. Most of the times the LE uses a case, like that of a child being tried for murder, unfortunately as a career stepping stone because of the national coverage it will draw...much like this case will and Christopher's case did.

This is a child who probably do not even understand fully what is happening and will no doubt be "troubled" with it for a long time.

Unfortunately innocent until proven guilty is a sham.

[Erin9]

The evidence that they have gathered at the crime scene DOES NOT match the statement that this kid made. The facts don't add up. What happened to innocent until proven otherwise? This kid has never been in trouble before and has never had a problem in school or anywhere else. The sad part is that after months of trauma that this boy is enduring day after day in that detention center, when he is finally exonerated, everyone in LE will just go about with their jobs and go back to their lovely little lives while this kid will never recover from this trauma.


I'm not an expert, but hasn't this kid said a lot of things that are contradictory? I'm not so much interested in his confession as I am the evidence that links him to the crime--which we don't really know much about yet.

From what little I know, it sounds like the wife hearing her husband called into the house by the child because something was wrong with his dad (and him affirming that it was the child) sounds pretty bad.

As for this kid never having been in trouble, that means nothing to me. I've read WAY too many stories of kids and adults committing heinous crimes without prior signs of violence.

I suspect heads will roll if it comes out that LE screwed up. I don't think they'll be allowed to just move on happily.

[Details]

The victims lives - what they are worth - is kinda a pointless question - they're of incalculable value. And no trial, no punishment, no nothing will bring them back. A trial isn't about revenge, our justice system isn't about revenge, it's not about making the victims families feel better, it's about justice, and attempting to deter future crime, rehabilitate, and protect the public.

An 8 year old child, with no past history, no indication he's a major problem - if he did it - if I imagine he did - this is a prime candidate for rehabilitation, and that's what we should be looking to - not to try to get him as an adult, because we want more revenge. It's not justice to try an 8 year old as an adult. Purely medically, his brain isn't even close to developed, he did not form the intent as an adult does, he didn't understand the consequences as an adult does, etc. An 8 year old believes people who die go to a better place, usually. And they believe in magic and all kinds of other things. They don't have a fully formed brain, and the way they process information, make decisions is so very different (and by different, I mean less effective, worse) than an adult. In 10 years, he'll be a quite different person. To put an adult penalty on a child is not justice, it is simply a desire for revenge.

And, of course, all that is if he did it. Right now the fake confession (IMO), the evidence that doesn't remotely match that confession, and simple common sense (a good kid by all accounts, 8 years old, two grown men, 4 shots each - just out of range of an 8 year old's skill set) say he didn't do it. The contradictory details of his varying confession also say he didn't do it - he's making up what he thinks the adults want him to say - just as most kids that age would.

[Details]

...As for this kid never having been in trouble, that means nothing to me. I've read WAY too many stories of kids and adults committing heinous crimes without prior signs of violence.

I suspect heads will roll if it comes out that LE screwed up. I don't think they'll be allowed to just move on happily.The kid never having been in trouble should mean something to you. It means - at the absolute worst, that he's a first time offender. That he's likely to be rehabilitatable. That we should be wondering what happened.

Maybe you've read a bunch of heinous crimes with no prior sign - every one I've read there has been a prior sign - something unreported maybe, something lesser - but indicating the temperment and issues that lead to the crime.


To just want to discard a human life, without even checking, without even considering the possible reasons, the possible issues, the possibility of rehabilitation - I just don't get that. There are physical illnesses that could have caused a pure psychotic break - rare - about as rare as an 8 year old killing their parents - a brain tumor, etc. There are emotional causes that are quite common in these rare cases of a child killing - where the people a child kills are their rapists (and not a thing suggests that - but not a thing suggests this child has anything wrong with him either - if you're ready to believe a reportedly good kid who liked playing ball with his dad suddenly turned murderer without any sign, might as well believe the other without any evidence or sign as well), there's the horrible ideas that someone used him as a killer - told him he'd be helping out and that Daddy would be back soon afterwards, and there's the chance he did it all on his own - but with his 8 year old's lack of comprehension that this was final and real.

I just don't get being so ready to discard a human life. And an 8 year old - oops - whatever, kid, who cares why or how it happened, you killed someone, whatever the story, we don't care. You're not an adult, your brain is physically not capable of reasoning, understanding consequences, making decisions as minor as signing a check - but we'll assume that when you shot people, you were thinking as well as an adult was.

[Erin9]

The victims lives - what they are worth - is kinda a pointless question - they're of incalculable value. And no trial, no punishment, no nothing will bring them back. A trial isn't about revenge, our justice system isn't about revenge, it's not about making the victims families feel better, it's about justice, and attempting to deter future crime, rehabilitate, and protect the public.

An 8 year old child, with no past history, no indication he's a major problem - if he did it - if I imagine he did - this is a prime candidate for rehabilitation, and that's what we should be looking to - not to try to get him as an adult, because we want more revenge. It's not justice to try an 8 year old as an adult. Purely medically, his brain isn't even close to developed, he did not form the intent as an adult does, he didn't understand the consequences as an adult does, etc. An 8 year old believes people who die go to a better place, usually. And they believe in magic and all kinds of other things. They don't have a fully formed brain, and the way they process information, make decisions is so very different (and by different, I mean less effective, worse) than an adult. In 10 years, he'll be a quite different person. To put an adult penalty on a child is not justice, it is simply a desire for revenge.

And, of course, all that is if he did it. Right now the fake confession (IMO), the evidence that doesn't remotely match that confession, and simple common sense (a good kid by all accounts, 8 years old, two grown men, 4 shots each - just out of range of an 8 year old's skill set) say he didn't do it. The contradictory details of his varying confession also say he didn't do it - he's making up what he thinks the adults want him to say - just as most kids that age would.


You're right that the lives of the victims are of incalcuable value and this isn't about making their families feel better. That's my emotional response though; this case seems to bring out strong emotional responses in general based on the posts I've read. Anyway, back to my point: I do think their murders warrant more punishment/justice than a few years. And, I do put punishment,justice, and the well- being of society way ahead of rehabilitation when I assess these situations.

All I know is that so-called good kids and adults do horrible things every day. So, his lack of a history doesn't go that far with me.

As for the rest, I simply don't know whether he did it or not, nor can I speak to his rehabilitation potential- having no background on the subject. Although I have to question how possible that is he if he managed to shoot two people at age 8. He could just be a sociopath and have known EXACTLY what the implications of his actions were. It's possible. If he did it, of course.

[SeeksJustice]

The victims lives - what they are worth - is kinda a pointless question - they're of incalculable value. And no trial, no punishment, no nothing will bring them back. A trial isn't about revenge, our justice system isn't about revenge, it's not about making the victims families feel better, it's about justice, and attempting to deter future crime, rehabilitate, and protect the public.

An 8 year old child, with no past history, no indication he's a major problem - if he did it - if I imagine he did - this is a prime candidate for rehabilitation, and that's what we should be looking to - not to try to get him as an adult, because we want more revenge. It's not justice to try an 8 year old as an adult. Purely medically, his brain isn't even close to developed, he did not form the intent as an adult does, he didn't understand the consequences as an adult does, etc. An 8 year old believes people who die go to a better place, usually. And they believe in magic and all kinds of other things. They don't have a fully formed brain, and the way they process information, make decisions is so very different (and by different, I mean less effective, worse) than an adult. In 10 years, he'll be a quite different person. To put an adult penalty on a child is not justice, it is simply a desire for revenge.

And, of course, all that is if he did it. Right now the fake confession (IMO), the evidence that doesn't remotely match that confession, and simple common sense (a good kid by all accounts, 8 years old, two grown men, 4 shots each - just out of range of an 8 year old's skill set) say he didn't do it. The contradictory details of his varying confession also say he didn't do it - he's making up what he thinks the adults want him to say - just as most kids that age would.


ITA Details.

Children do things and do not realize what the ramifications will be.

Regardless if this child did this or not, he will not be the same person 10 years from now. Rehabilitation is definately called for in case like this. People believe that these kids are just going to be let out and that is it. They act as if spending the next 10 or 12 years in a juvenile detention center is like camp. It is far from it.

This child will also have to live with his own personal demons for what he did...if it is true....for the rest of his life.

We all feel for the victim and those that loved them. But even in the case of Christopher Pittman, his family had forgiven him because they knew that as a result of the drugs he was on they KNEW he was not in his right mind. They knew and they saw the change before it happened and unfortunately it was too late for him. Society called him an evil murdered and they have given him 30 years....no parole. There is no rehabilitation for him. He will have to serve his sentence.

I know there are those who don't believe his story...who hate him and wish him death...I have seen it places. It is truly sad. He really is a very good person. As I said, I correspond with him and is grandmother is a very kind woman. He still hopes to be able to get out before his sentence is up and there are still avenues he can seek. We are hopeful that he will not have to be there the whole time because we fear he will have a harder time adjusting to life as it should be.

[SeeksJustice]

Thank you for your wonderful and informed post. I hope the public starts realizing that this demonization of children has led to much injustice in the past decade or two especially. This 'scare' has gone on long enough and children are being railroaded, especially those who have no one to speak for them or who do not have the money to fight back or both. It's a travesty and unbelievable that even young children are being tried as adults and said to be capable of thinking that is beyond their cognitive development, let alone that they are interviewed without an attorney.

Blues, it is amazing what is allowable in a court of law when it comes to children's confessions and/or questioning them.

They do not have to let a parent or lawyer in with a child when he/she is being questioned. That is just the way it is and it doesn't matter how long they hold that child for. Would a child say, "I would like an attorney" or "I'm not going to answer anymore questions without an attorney". No, a child would not. There have even been children who have asked for their parents and they were not permitted to have their parent present. Parents can even insist they see their child and the LE does not have to let them. LE doesn't even have to inform a parent that a child is being questioned.

It is all really quite unreal and happens all the time. That is why I say I fear for any child who ends up in the juvenile system. It is actually as if you have no rights and as a society, we should be ashamed. This is not only in cases of suspected murder...this is for any reason a juvenile is picked up.

[Erin9]

Of course sympathies should go out to the victim and their family and friends. No one is saying that it should not be that way. It remains a tragedy no matter what happens.

In this case, as I said before, there are many factors to this case, many which are troubling and at the heart of it are an 8 year old boy and two dead men. What happened is still unclear. There is evidence and there is a “confession” but it will be the sorting of all that that still needs to be done.

I understand the need for justice. It is what everyone wants….justice for the victim. But there is also justice for those who do not understand what they do in the same scope as an adult understands. These are children. Children that, by our society’s laws, are not lawfully able to do things that adults are allowed to do yet are held to the same standards as adults…including judging their mental capacities and/or ability to “premeditate” a crime. We want it both ways and unfortunately that is not true justice.

There are children who have been abused and have murdered family members and who have still been sentenced to life. Do not think that the factor of abuse saves them because it does not. There are children who have been present when others who have committed heinous acts and have also had been sentenced to life.

We have to see WHAT made a child do what they have done. Things may appear normal but there is definitely a reason why and the point is that we need to find out what that is. Sure, there are kids that are “bad” but we as a society are calling from blood. We do not really care why. We are seeking justice.

Why did you wish I had left the bible verse out of it?

I'm certainly interested in the "whys" of a situation. IA the mental capacity of the child is important. That should be assessed. For instance, if he did it, how much does he understand about death? He may well understand what he did. He may not. I don't know, and I'm not going to assume one way or the other.

IF he did this crime, it just sounds so methodical, so planned. That's disturbing. (If there was abuse, well that's a whole different thing.)

What I don't like is automatically letting kids who commit crimes like this out of jail at 18 just because they're of legal age. I guess the kids who are coming to mind are the two Middle School kids that were involved in the school shooting, I think, 15 or so years ago.

It just makes me somewhat uncomfortable when people use verses to justify their pov versus someone elses. That can lead to people just tossing out one verse after another back and forth. Then, there are the people who twist the verses around. And, on another level, none of us are perfect. Everyone judges people to some extent. We're human. I just would have preferred to leave that out of this.

[Details]

You're right that the lives of the victims are of incalcuable value and this isn't about making their families feel better. That's my emotional response though; this case seems to bring out strong emotional responses in general based on the posts I've read. Anyway, back to my point: I do think their murders warrant more punishment/justice than a few years. And, I do put punishment,justice, and the well- being of society way ahead of rehabilitation when I assess these situations.

All I know is that so-called good kids and adults do horrible things every day. So, his lack of a history doesn't go that far with me.

As for the rest, I simply don't know whether he did it or not, nor can I speak to his rehabilitation potential- having no background on the subject. Although I have to question how possible that is he if he managed to shoot two people at age 8. He could just be a sociopath and have known EXACTLY what the implications of his actions were. It's possible. If he did it, of course.He could be a sociopath. But no 8 year old knows the implications of their actions at that age.

I understand emotional reactions - and they lead to awful injustice, horrible laws, and bad verdicts. Emotion is fine - but it's not a good thing to base actions on. It jumps to conclusions, overreacts, underreacts, can be easily lead.

The big questions are if he did it (highly doubtful with that blood trail leading the opposite direction it should), and if so - what should the punishment be - and for that, our emotional reaction to a murderer needs to remember that this is an 8 year old kid. If an infant rolled over in their sleep, and kinked Granny's oxygen hose, and killed her - would we be ready to charge for murder? A two year old pulls the trigger and kills - are they the same? An 8 year old has more in common with these two than with an adult.

He knows what happens when he pulls the trigger - but doesn't have the mental ability to fully understand what that means, how permanent death is, the emotions, etc. He's 8 - you tell him a tooth fairy puts money under his pillow, and he believes it. He'd give away your car title if someone offered him a nice piece of candy. Even if he's a sociopath, he's still too young to understand what he's taking from people when he hurts them.

[Erin9]

Question. With all due respect, have you seen the tape of the "confession" and have you read any of the court transcripts from the probable cause hearing or are you just talking out of your hat on this one? No, seriously, you can't be serious when you say that an 8 year old any 8 year old would have the mental capacity to know EXACTLY what the implications of his actions were. You are talking about a child who is 8 years old, who still believes in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, magic and boogey men hiding in their closets. They are still sleeping with teddy bears at that age, listening to fairy tales and believing that everything has a happy ending. This is a baby for God sake. And please stop lumping this kid in with the "axis of evil" category. At least until we have further proof otherwise.

I haven't seen the so-called confession. Like I said, I DON'T have a conclusion about whether or not this kid is guilty. So, I'm not "talking out of my hat" on anything. I'm not saying he did it. Nor am I proclaiming him to be innocent.

I'm not lumping this child as an "axis of evil" either, but I'm going to be cautious about how much sympathy I extend to a child who may have ended the lives of two people with a gun. I do believe there is such a thing as kids who don't have a conscience. MOST kids do. Some don't. I understand how the average child thinks.

[Details]

I'm certainly interested in the "whys" of a situation. IA the mental capacity of the child is important. That should be assessed. For instance, if he did it, how much does he understand about death? He may well understand what he did. He may not. I don't know, and I'm not going to assume one way or the other.

IF he did this crime, it just sounds so methodical, so planned. That's disturbing. (If there was abuse, well that's a whole different thing.)

What I don't like is automatically letting kids who commit crimes like this out of jail at 18 just because they're of legal age. I guess the kids who are coming to mind are the two Middle School kids that were involved in the school shooting, I think, 15 or so years ago....The mental capacity is a matter of medical fact. Our brains take time to develop, and unless this kid is some type of mutant, the type of brain he has is a typical 8 year old brain. It's not near fully formed, decision making, consequences - these are all things that are still very much works in progress, and will be for a fair bit longer.

The case of the Middle School kids - that's exactly why I don't like emotion as a way to make my point of view. Anger over a previous outrage can lead you to take a position that is inappropriate, when you're really just trying to fix that previous case. This is not that case. 8 years old is not a middle school student. They are a great deal older than this kid - it's a whole different case. And the issues are the same - there's good reason for juvenile justice - real issues of brain development stages. We won't let them sign a check, drink, join the military, have sex, because their decision making skills are so bad - but we think when they kill that suddenly they've got the decision making skills of an adult. The closer they are to adult, the more that can be true - but not at 8 years old!

[Justice_Dawg]

But, is there really a reason to pit concern/sympathy of the victim against anyone who is innocent until proven guilty, let alone a child? Isn't justice what is important, not taking sides? Victim's Rights groups have gone too far in my opinion, esp here in California where another Proposition has passed. I just don't think these folks realize that unjust convictions happen. It is actually very easy to get juveniles or children convicted because they often don't have adequate representation and money. Often prosecutors just want a conviction. Some of them almost seem blood thirsty and will scare the bejesus out of the public and the jury - another satanistic or demon child on the loose! This is mostly a myth that has been perpetuated in the media and by others. It all went too far in the past decade or two.

Prosecutors actually have far more resources at their avail than do defendants/public defenders and if convicted, the chances for an appeal to be granted are slim let alone money is not typically granted for further forensics to the appelate attorneys and sometimes they have trouble even getting the evidence they know is there because it is denied or lost - if you don't believe me, read up on this. We should be extra careful when trying children, let alone this blanket claim that they should be tried as adults. There is absolutely no excuse for not having an attorney present when a child is interviewed, that's criminal in itself and I would venture to say that as many innocent children have spents years behind bars as have who are actually guilty. Again, I will bring up the case of Tim Masters...

Sketchy Evidence
http://www.denverpost.com/mediacentervideo/ci_6369280

And more on Tim

http://www.denverpostplus.com/photoprojects/specialprojects/masters/masters.html#id=album-2211&num=39

http://blog.law.northwestern.edu/bluhm/2008/01/timothy-masters.html

In a classic case of tunnelvision, local police and prosecutors (Fort Collins, CO) focused almost exclusively on Masters, who was only 15 years of age at the time of the crime... Despite subjecting the teen to hours of grueling, accusatory interrogations (captured on videotape), ... The case against him was all smoke and mirrors -- not a shred of physical evidence linked him to the crime -- he was convicted largely on the basis of a forensic pyschologist's opinion that Masters's drawings were those of a killer.


The point of bring up this case is that this was such a clear cut case of not having ANY evidence, yet Masters spent 10 years in jail. Luckily there was other DNA evidence or he would have been there for life.

Let us not forget Marty. Poor kid spent most of his life in prison.

Marty Tankleff had just turned 17 when he was arrested for killing his parents, Seymour and Arlene Tankleff, in their home on Long Island, NY. Based on a dubious, unsigned "confession" extracted from him following hours of interrogation by a detective with a questionable background, Marty was convicted and sentenced to 50 years to life. After 17 years in prison, Marty's conviction was vacated by the New York State Appellate Division, Second Department, in December of 2007. On July 22, 2008, a judge signed off on a motion by Attorney General Andrew Cuomo to dismiss all charges against Marty. A report is still pending from the NY State Investigation Commission, which is investigating Suffolk County law enforcement for its conduct in Marty's conviction.
:tongue:
http://www.martytankleff.org/Gui/Content.aspx?Page=Home2

[Erin9]

But, is there really a reason to pit concern/sympathy of the victim against anyone who is innocent until proven guilty, let alone a child? Isn't justice what is important, not taking sides? Victim's Rights groups have gone too far in my opinion, esp here in California where another Proposition has passed. I just don't think these folks realize that unjust convictions happen. It is actually very easy to get juveniles or children convicted because they often don't have adequate representation and money. Often prosecutors just want a conviction. Some of them almost seem blood thirsty and will scare the bejesus out of the public and the jury - another satanistic or demon child on the loose! This is mostly a myth that has been perpetuated in the media and by others. It all went too far in the past decade or two.

Prosecutors actually have far more resources at their avail than do defendants/public defenders and if convicted, the chances for an appeal to be granted are slim let alone money is not typically granted for further forensics to the appelate attorneys and sometimes they have trouble even getting the evidence they know is there because it is denied or lost - if you don't believe me, read up on this. We should be extra careful when trying children, let alone this blanket claim that they should be tried as adults. There is absolutely no excuse for not having an attorney present when a child is interviewed, that's criminal in itself and I would venture to say that as many innocent children have spents years behind bars as have who are actually guilty. Again, I will bring up the case of Tim Masters...



Absolutely. Justice is the most important thing. I think I may have been reacting to a lot of the emotional responses of the well- being of the child while he's incarcerated. Of course, his well- being is of concern and naturally I don't want him to be mistreated. I guess I just don't want to see the victims get forgotten in all of this; I don't know whether they were killed by him or someone else, but they are still dead.

You're certainly correct about the number of poorly handled prosecutions. This case should certainly be watched closely.

I've read so many stories in the last few years about kids killing their parents or classmates over trivial things that it's hard for me to say the media has over-hyped the situation.

[Details]

It's really not an either/or proposition - you can have concern for the victims families AND concern for the child. You can be sympathetic to the victim's wife without indulging in her desire that this child who is so far only charged with murder be punished before he is convicted by denying him time with his remaining family, without believing her conviction that he's guilty.

My sympathy for her loss, for the father's relatives loss doesn't make me less interested in justice for the child as well. And in this case, where the confession looks so much like the confession of other children pressured into a false confession - it's definitely a time for the child to be treated with all due consideration until there is enough evidence to show him guilty. After that, we need to look at why, rehabilitation, etc. Because an 8 year old killing is incredibly rare - which means that something incredibly rare happened to this 8 year old. We need to know what that is.

[Erin9]

The mental capacity is a matter of medical fact. Our brains take time to develop, and unless this kid is some type of mutant, the type of brain he has is a typical 8 year old brain. It's not near fully formed, decision making, consequences - these are all things that are still very much works in progress, and will be for a fair bit longer.

The case of the Middle School kids - that's exactly why I don't like emotion as a way to make my point of view. Anger over a previous outrage can lead you to take a position that is inappropriate, when you're really just trying to fix that previous case. This is not that case. 8 years old is not a middle school student. They are a great deal older than this kid - it's a whole different case. And the issues are the same - there's good reason for juvenile justice - real issues of brain development stages. We won't let them sign a check, drink, join the military, have sex, because their decision making skills are so bad - but we think when they kill that suddenly they've got the decision making skills of an adult. The closer they are to adult, the more that can be true - but not at 8 years old!

I think what gets me is: Where do you draw the line? I understand that 8 year olds don't think on an adult level, but really, what do you do when they commit adult crimes such as this? Give them therapy, let them out at 18 and hope for the best? I'm glad I'm not involved the system. Kids committing violent crimes is just so deeply disturbing.

Also, I thought there guns in the house because the father was going hunting with his son. If so, he might have a different understanding of death and its permanancy.

Oh, I know that a Middle Schooler and an 8 year old don't process in the same. This case just reminded me of them, simply because it involved juveniles and short sentences. Mostly, I was just stunned that an 11 year old could do something like that. *sigh* I remember seeing the photos of those two boys. Blew my mind. Sorry, I went off on a tangent.

[Erin9]

It's really not an either/or proposition - you can have concern for the victims families AND concern for the child. You can be sympathetic to the victim's wife without indulging in her desire that this child who is so far only charged with murder be punished before he is convicted by denying him time with his remaining family, without believing her conviction that he's guilty.


Huh?? If you were addressing me, I haven't said anything about whether or not I think it's okay for this child to be let out for Thanksgiving- or longer. It doesn't bother me, especially since he is a child.

That being said, since his wife evidently believes him to be guilty, I can understand her anger that he gets to have a nice Thanksgiving with his family. I suspect most victim's families would feel the same way.

Like I said, if he did it, this is just so disturbing, I don't even know where to start.

[Justice_Dawg]

I need somebody to explain to me Rodrigues (sp) testimony that there was a trail of blood from the driveway, leading up to where Tim was found on the front porch. He testified that Tim was shot in the driveway and made it to the porch where he was shot more and died.

I need someone to tell me why NOBODY saw the child outside, shooting a gun (home door closed, bullet hole in it going INWARD, shell castings outside).

The "wife's tip" was the boy was calling Tim to come inside because something was wrong with dad.

It just DOESN'T fit. JMHO :hat:

[Kara]

http://groups.google.com/group/apacheschighprofile/web/jv2008065

GentleBreeze posted this yesterday and it has all the motions and filings on it. Very good link.
Thank you. I had been hunting for the link and hadn't been able to find it. :seeya:

[Justice_Dawg]

Yes, another horrible injustice - there are actually many juvenile justice cases that are an injustice. And, it's so difficult to reverse anything once they are convicted. I feel if we started charging investigators and police for the true misconduct or worse in these cases, we would not be seeing so much of this. There is also Tyler Edmonds, who thankfully has been released, and Brett Jones (who I think will be released but hasn't been yet). The list goes on and on.
It is high time Prosecutors do time for wrongful convictions. Lead Investigators TOO!
:flamemad:

[Crispy]

I need somebody to explain to me Rodrigues (sp) testimony that there was a trail of blood from the driveway, leading up to where Tim was found on the front porch. He testified that Tim was shot in the driveway and made it to the porch where he was shot more and died.

I need someone to tell me why NOBODY saw the child outside, shooting a gun (home door closed, bullet hole in it going INWARD, shell castings outside).

The "wife's tip" was the boy was calling Tim to come inside because something was wrong with dad.

It just DOESN'T fit. JMHO :hat:

That was one of the things that bugged me too. As gruesome as it is, I need to see the actual crime scene pictures. One officer said his head was toward the door. ? Also, the father was face down on the stairs and they found casings at the top and bottom of the staircase. Did he shoot him from the top and the bottom of the stairs? Oh and two officers both mentioned a drug overdose. Rodriguez even said when he heard the area and he thought who lived around there he thought it was a drug overdose. ?

Lots of questions here IMO.

[Justice_Dawg]

That was one of the things that bugged me too. As gruesome as it is, I need to see the actual crime scene pictures. One officer said his head was toward the door. ? Also, the father was face down on the stairs and they found casings at the top and bottom of the staircase. Did he shoot him from the top and the bottom of the stairs? Oh and two officers both mentioned a drug overdose. Rodriguez even said when he heard the area and he thought who lived around there he thought it was a drug overdose. ?

Lots of questions here IMO.
All of it bothers the heck out of me.
Sounds to me like they lived in a druggy neighborhood. :shrug:

MOO

[Kara]

The victims lives - what they are worth - is kinda a pointless question - they're of incalculable value. <snipped with great respect>
I see you have been quoted several times so I will snip your post and just offer kudos.

BTW..your siggie line makes me smile. :)

[SeeksJustice]

I'm certainly interested in the "whys" of a situation. IA the mental capacity of the child is important. That should be assessed. For instance, if he did it, how much does he understand about death? He may well understand what he did. He may not. I don't know, and I'm not going to assume one way or the other.

IF he did this crime, it just sounds so methodical, so planned. That's disturbing. (If there was abuse, well that's a whole different thing.)

What I don't like is automatically letting kids who commit crimes like this out of jail at 18 just because they're of legal age. I guess the kids who are coming to mind are the two Middle School kids that were involved in the school shooting, I think, 15 or so years ago.

It just makes me somewhat uncomfortable when people use verses to justify their pov versus someone elses. That can lead to people just tossing out one verse after another back and forth. Then, there are the people who twist the verses around. And, on another level, none of us are perfect. Everyone judges people to some extent. We're human. I just would have preferred to leave that out of this.

Something is definately amiss if a child of 8 shoots two people, one of which is his father. A mental evaluation is definately on the list of what needs to be done. I do not know if this child has committed this crime as of yet and as stated, there are alot of oddities in this case. Alot of questions that are not yet answered. BUT, this is STILL an 8 year old boy. We all know that he is accused of a horrible crime but at this point, there ARE people who are willing to condemn him.

Releasing offenders at the age of 18 is the way the system works. There are circumstances where a child is given a bridge sentence. This is where they serve their sentence in the juvenile facility and then serve the remainder of their sentence in an adult prison. This is similar to what Christopher Pittman received except he was transferred to the adult prison at the age of 17. The goal of a juvenile facility is to rehabilitate the offender. They go to school, receive extensive counseling and they are in a setting that is set up for them to actually BE rehabilitated. Stil, it is "jail" and there are still horrible things that happen to them while they are there.

I believe you are referring to the Columbine school shooting. Believe it or not, there were PLENTY of warning signs that went unnoticed and/or were not acted upon by those who should have. I do not condone what those boys did but there were reasons....some of which were the drugs that children are prescribed. I will not get into it but it was definately something that could have and should have been prevented. 10 out of the 12 school shooting involved children that were prescribed SSRI drugs...drugs not approved for use in children and drugs that were not presecribed properly. If you notice now you are not seeing as many ad on TV for these drugs and now they are stating that they are not for children under the age of 18.

I am sorry if the use of the verse made you uncomfortable but it is appropriate for some who judge without compassion, knowledge, or understanding of situations. Hence the "judging with evil intent". It was not directed toward you though so please do not take it that way.

[SeeksJustice]

No, a child is not going to ask for an attorney. Some very good child psychologists have spoken out or written on these subjects. I find it appaling that some things are still going on in our country in this respect where it appears these kids have no rights and no protection. Worse when society fears them and will not listen to reason.

From a 1996 case...
http://www.pbs.org/domainredirs/aolsvc.pbs.aol.com/redir/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/little/etc/script.html

Dr. Edward Hyman, a Psychologist, says he questioned a gifted 6-year-old and asked him what might happen to him if he had done something very, very wrong. "You mean like killing somebody?" the child said? Then the kid said "I'd have to go to the principal's office for a really long time." In this case another psychologist tried to claim the 6 year old they were hoping to charge with attempted murder could be diagnosed as a psychopath. Dr, Hyman says this is one of the most ludicrous assertions and is this is "absolutely forbidden by all the research, contradicted by all the research in development, but forensically, to think that this could be generated by an hour-long or even a two-hour-long interview is the height of abuse."

It still amazes me that to this day this practice is still allowed knowing full well that a child does not know that what they say in that room will be taken as a confession of guilt and be allowed as evidence in a court of law. The Supreme Court has been completely useless in the reform of juvenile justice and on a state level, it is awful. I thought that South Carolina was the worst but it remains to be seen if Arizona will take the cake. Just the fact that there a laws on the books that allow an 8 year old to possibly be tried as an adult says much about us as a country.

No other country in the world, even those we consider "barbaric" charge their children as adults....no where in the world.

[Details]

I think what gets me is: Where do you draw the line? I understand that 8 year olds don't think on an adult level, but really, what do you do when they commit adult crimes such as this? Give them therapy, let them out at 18 and hope for the best? I'm glad I'm not involved the system. Kids committing violent crimes is just so deeply disturbing.

Also, I thought there guns in the house because the father was going hunting with his son. If so, he might have a different understanding of death and its permanancy.

Oh, I know that a Middle Schooler and an 8 year old don't process in the same. This case just reminded me of them, simply because it involved juveniles and short sentences. Mostly, I was just stunned that an 11 year old could do something like that. *sigh* I remember seeing the photos of those two boys. Blew my mind. Sorry, I went off on a tangent.Yes, if convicted he gets 10 years - think about that - an 8 year old sentenced to 10 years - heck, think of yourself sentenced to 10 years - that'll be all he knows, almost all he remembers of his life will be juvie. And at the end of all that time, longer than he's been alive, we hope he's rehabilitated, we know he's not the same person he was at 8 (none of us are), and from there he is who he is. You can never know if therapy, education, rehabilitation worked - but then, we never know about anyone - people without records do plenty of horrible things too.

He's gone hunting. Does that mean he understands that the animals he shoots die permanently? Or do they go to a better place? Does he figure the squirrel he sees the next day is probably the squirrel he just shot yesterday, all better now? Or does he not think about it at all? Most likely the last.

You can teach a child to do many things, because they don't yet understand right and wrong fully, consequences, etc. They don't think ahead. They don't know about life and death at any real level - even if you tell them, they just don't have the tools to process it emotionally.

[bkwits]

Huh?? If you were addressing me, I haven't said anything about whether or not I think it's okay for this child to be let out for Thanksgiving- or longer. It doesn't bother me, especially since he is a child.

That being said, since his wife evidently believes him to be guilty, I can understand her anger that he gets to have a nice Thanksgiving with his family. I suspect most victim's families would feel the same way.

Like I said, if he did it, this is just so disturbing, I don't even know where to start.t

For one thing, the victims family are sometimes led down the garden path by LE and Pros. The family focuses on the accused, when the accused may not be guilty. The family of a 10 year-old girl who was kidnapped, raped, and murdered were led down such a path by then State's Attorney Jim Ryan (DuPage Co. IL). Some young punks who were trying to collect reward money went to police, and were railroaded into convictions. Cruz and Hernandez received the death penalty. Hernandez's sentence was later communted to 80 yrs. Cruz was on death row for 12 years, even though there was evidence that didn't match him or Hernandez. Another man (Brian Dugan) confessed to the murder and evidence did match him and he had been convicted of murdering two other females. They tried Cruz and Hernandez 3 times each. Hernandez was released after the third trial. That Northwestern U group that fights wrongful convictions finally proved that Cruz wasn't there, didn't do it. He was later pardoned.

I'm relating this because The Nicarico family was devastated. They still believed that these young men tortured and murdered their daughter. Ryan had assured them for years that they were guilty. It was hard for them to accept that the men they blamed all of those years did not do it, but was almost executed for her murder. Jim Ryan ran for Governor of Illinois and the Nicarico family spoke out against him.

[Erin9]

I believe you are referring to the Columbine school shooting. Believe it or not, there were PLENTY of warning signs that went unnoticed and/or were not acted upon by those who should have. I do not condone what those boys did but there were reasons....some of which were the drugs that children are prescribed. I will not get into it but it was definately something that could have and should have been prevented. 10 out of the 12 school shooting involved children that were prescribed SSRI drugs...drugs not approved for use in children and drugs that were not presecribed properly. If you notice now you are not seeing as many ad on TV for these drugs and now they are stating that they are not for children under the age of 18.

I am sorry if the use of the verse made you uncomfortable but it is appropriate for some who judge without compassion, knowledge, or understanding of situations. Hence the "judging with evil intent". It was not directed toward you though so please do not take it that way.


It wasn't Columbine. That was a high school shooting. The one I'm thinking of was a Middle School shooting a few years or so before Columbine. I can't remember the name of the school, but I know a teacher and some students were killed and the boys responsible were sent to juvie until they were 18. I can't even remember what the behavior of the boys was leading up to it. It was all over the media at the time, and I think it opened a brief debate about when someone should be tried as an adult. I think a lot of people were appalled at how little time they'd serve. I know I've gone OT. Sorry.

I didn't take it that way.:)

[Crispy]

It wasn't Columbine. That was a high school shooting. The one I'm thinking of was a Middle School shooting a few years or so before Columbine. I can't remember the name of the school, but I know a teacher and some students were killed and the boys responsible were sent to juvie until they were 18. I can't even remember what the behavior of the boys was leading up to it. It was all over the media at the time, and I think it opened a brief debate about when someone should be tried as an adult. I think a lot of people were appalled at how little time they'd serve. I know I've gone OT. Sorry.

I didn't take it that way.:)

Is this it?

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D04E4DD1E38F936A15750C0A96E9582 60&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

[Justice_Dawg]

New- Nov 21st MOTION TO DISMISS COUNT ONE
and 2 others UP

on the shhhhh site.
I am going to read now:chicken: Just giving you all a heads up.

[SeeksJustice]

Yes, another horrible injustice - there are actually many juvenile justice cases that are an injustice. And, it's so difficult to reverse anything once they are convicted. I feel if we started charging investigators and police for the true misconduct or worse in these cases, we would not be seeing so much of this. There is also Tyler Edmonds, who thankfully has been released, and Brett Jones (who I think will be released but hasn't been yet). The list goes on and on.

I remember when Brett was found guilty. I have corresponded with his mother on a couple of occasions and told her to contact a few people in my "circle" of advocates that fight for juvenile justice in case such as his.

I know that she has been waiting for him to be released but I am not sure either when it is going to happen. This is a boy that was give an awful sentence as well.

[Justice_Dawg]

Oh happy day, Oh Happy day!
Motion to dismiss
Count 1
Murder of Vincent Romero

Filed By the STATE.

WOO HOO :beer:

[SeeksJustice]

It wasn't Columbine. That was a high school shooting. The one I'm thinking of was a Middle School shooting a few years or so before Columbine. I can't remember the name of the school, but I know a teacher and some students were killed and the boys responsible were sent to juvie until they were 18. I can't even remember what the behavior of the boys was leading up to it. It was all over the media at the time, and I think it opened a brief debate about when someone should be tried as an adult. I think a lot of people were appalled at how little time they'd serve. I know I've gone OT. Sorry.

I didn't take it that way.:)

Oh...I know which shooting you are referring to. That was the school shooting in Arkansas in 1998. 4 girls and a teacher were killed. The boys, were 11 and 13 and were not charged as adults because the law in Arkansas does not allow it.

Truly tragic case.

[Justice_Dawg]

DISMISS WITHOUT PREJUDICE



Does the boy have to wait for the judge to ok it? Or can the boy just go home? :confused: What about count 2 ? That is the Murder of Tim? It isn't up yet. hammer

[Details]

At maybe 14, 15, I can see charging as an adult, when the crime is significant, when there's a pattern showing in the kids life - by then, maybe, we've got enough to say this is who they are, and they've developed enough that they should be treated as an adult. But before that - it just doesn't feel right to me.

However bad, it's a reflection of one of two things - a bad parent or guardian situation - which hopefully the next 4-10 years in juvenile can remedy - or a purely functional mental disorder - which in my ideal world, we'd spend the next few years treating and correcting, or commit them to a mental institution (we need to bring commitment back - use it better this time, but some very few need it so very badly). But when they are mentally ill, but we cannot commit them - there's no good option. We can't say we'll treat you as an adult only if your brain is broken, and there's not usually enough time to establish that before trial anyway.



But I'm glad to see this case seems to be going away - just the little bit of info that has gotten out seems near to proof the boy didn't do it. That blood trail from the driveway to the house, the spots where the casings landed - it's all not fitting the confession, nor the idea that the boy did it. Poor kid!

[Justice_Dawg]

Where did everyone go? :(

[Details]

We're sitting here refreshing and searching Google for more news! ;)

[Justice_Dawg]

We're sitting here refreshing and searching Google for more news! ;)
Heck with news, we have the document filed with the court.
Didn't you read the states motion to dismiss Count 1? :biggrin:

[Crispy]

Where did everyone go? :(

Wow...wonder why they moved to dismiss that. :confused:

[Justice_Dawg]

Wow...wonder why they moved to dismiss that. :confused:

Because he DIDN'T DO IT!!! So the state is asking to dismiss the murder charge.

[Crispy]

Wow... I hope he can just go home

Doesn't without prejudice mean they can refile on it?

[NoMisbehavin]

Just peeked in, thanks for the info Justice. Keep reporting, wonder if any of the cable networks are reporting this.

Something just didn't seem right with this case from day one, I think they acted too fast.

Where can I read the filing for the dismissal, just got home from work so I'm out of the loop.

[Justice_Dawg]

Doesn't without prejudice mean they can refile on it?

Yes, but the state goes on to say "The interest of justice willl be served by such a dismissal."

:shrug:

[Crispy]

I'm happy that they moved to dismiss the count, but I can't help but feel that there was an ulterior motive for it. I'm thinking they are either going to change the charge or they are only going to try him for one murder and if they lose go back and try on the other murder. Maybe I'm being paranoid.:shrug:

[Details]

Yes, but the state goes on to say "The interest of justice willl be served by such a dismissal."

:shrug:That's boilerplate I think.

They could be dismissing because they think they've got a better case on the other guy, they could be dismissing because they want this to be an adult case, or they could be dismissing because the recent publicity has embarrassed them into realizing they have a very weak case against a child based solely on the child's likely coerced and false confession. We won't know until they say something.

[NoMisbehavin]

Did find this. And it does say charges can be refiled.

http://ktar.com/?nid=6&sid=995598

[Justice_Dawg]

I wonder if that means that they are planning to re-arrest him with his attorney present and then go after him full force again. This baby has been through enough and I hope to God someone can stop this train wreck before an innocent child is ruined forever.

I can't stand it!! What is going on??
They better report something!!!
They better not turn around and re-arrest him. :flamemad:

[Crispy]

Every article I have read says the same as the link above. Attorneys can't comment because of the gag order. UGGG!!

[Justice_Dawg]

Every article I have read says the same as the link above. Attorneys can't comment because of the gag order. UGGG!!

I know, it is driving me nuts! hammer

[Details]

I'd put long odds that they'll be looking at doing just that (rearresting him). If there was a real change of heart, I'd expect to see them drop all charges.

[Crispy]

http://www.kpho.com/news/18025753/detail.html#-

In this article the defense attorney says that it changes things significantly, but he can't discuss it

[justaguy]

i ain't as up on the forensics ect..i can wait more and see. but i do feel that there is NO way an 8 year old can premeditate in the way an adult can. can he form a plan to shoot two people? yes..but not appreciate the consequences. i posted earlier ..i had a childhood aqqaintance who killed himself when he was 9 because he had lost a library book for the third time. it sounds insane to us..but in the small world of a child..he could not face that authority figure again. now, he could just as easily turned that fear and anxiety OUTwards and come to the library with a gun. but what gets me...is people hear about the former and its "that poor kid"..."what was he thinking" and pity and an attempt to understand the action. but in the latter...some are just "lock him up and throw away the keys".

[Justice_Dawg]

I had to walk away for awhile and think about this new development.

I think the state is going to come back with the death of Vincent Romero was not premeditated murder. They may go for 2nd degree/ voluntary manslaughter if they think he shot his dad because his dad caught him playing with the gun or something to that effect, or involuntary manslaughter saying the gun went off accidentally because the boy was startled by seeing his father.

What do you all think? :shrug:

MOO

[Crispy]

I had to walk away for awhile and think about this new development.

I think the state is going to come back with the death of Vincent Romero was not premeditated murder. They may go for 2nd degree/ voluntary manslaughter if they think he shot his dad because his dad caught him playing with the gun or something to that effect, or involuntary manslaughter saying the gun went off accidentally because the boy was startled by seeing his father.

What do you all think? :shrug:

MOO

I'm really at a loss here. I'm not sure what to think. Maybe they dropped it because they wanted to wait and get more evidence..phone records, forensic reports and such. I read the one motion that said something about barring something(sorry can't remember exact wording) it would go to trial Dec. 22nd. That gives them roughly a month to get this whole case together.

[Justice_Dawg]

I guess I'm going to be first to respond here. I did read the link that was posted above by Crispy and thank you for keeping us up to the minute, Crispy! I for one am rivited to this case. I did read the article and it sounds to me as though the defense attorney is now a bit more unsure of himself about how to handle this case. I think he just all but says that in his "this changes things significantly" as in "I am not prepared and I don't know how to proceed". I think by eliminating one count and going after the second one points to the possiblity that the defense would contend that someone murdered the dad prior to the boy coming home from school and that the boy shot the second man based on the telephone call of the victims wife. What troubles me again about this second man's death is the blood stains in the driveway (if the boy were inside the house, how could he possibly be in the driveway shooting at the same time). I did see the photo of the screen door with the bullet hole exiting the door and that is clear, that the shot came from inside the house but that again doesn't add up to how this guy was shot from the inside of the house and at the same time he is bleeding in the driveway and moving or walking into the house. And no eyewitnesses only neighbors that think they heard a shot which can easily be rebuffed by a good defense attorney "are you sure it was a gunshot and not the backfire of a car or motorcycle? How can you be so sure (think My Cousin Vinny on this one). I think that the defense attorney needs to put aside any ego he may have in this and ASK for help from other attorneys and organizations such as Justice for Kids to go proceed further in this case. I highly doubt that these LE in this hick town who are hell bent on making a name for themselves, advancing their careers and possibly looking for book deals and movie deals, are going to drop this case even if they have no evidence whatsoever because it becomes a matter of willfullness and saving face and they are not going to lose face in this - not after the media is running with it like there is no tomorrow. I continually pray for this boy because I believe he is innocent innocent innocent and I will be writing to the Governor of Az. (who by the way made public statements which indicate she believes the boy did it- based on what ???) and the Attorney General and I hope others will follow suit.


The bullet went through the door from the Outside (as per Rodriguez)
The last man to testify said that the pop sound from the gun would have been pretty loud if shot from outside.
-------------------------------
Well it was shot from outside, now what?
-------------------------------

I Love My cousin Vinny. :biggrin:

--------------------------------
I thought of something else.

Only Tim's family is OUTRAGED that the boy got a 48 hr. furlough. Only Tim's family is screaming that he is guilty.

His mom, stepmom, grandmother and aunt visit him. None of them are screaming guilty. Not even the stepmom. We don't heard a word from them. I haven't anyway. :shrug:

[Justice_Dawg]

I'm really at a loss here. I'm not sure what to think. Maybe they dropped it because they wanted to wait and get more evidence..phone records, forensic reports and such. I read the one motion that said something about barring something(sorry can't remember exact wording) it would go to trial Dec. 22nd. That gives them roughly a month to get this whole case together.

Which motion? TIA.

I see they boy will be 11 yrs old Jan. 29.

:(

[Crispy]

It's at the link for the filings. I apologize it wasn't a motion, it was a Notice to the Court RE Time Limits. Got myself confused with the jury trial motion.

[Amy S.]

http://www.kpho.com/news/18025753/detail.html

Here's some Phoenix news.

[Justice_Dawg]

http://www.kpho.com/news/18025753/detail.html#-

In this article the defense attorney says that it changes things significantly, but he can't discuss it


Now the defense attorney says (from the same link, updated)
"I'm not sure if this is a situation where they're looking to get a tactical advantage or if there is a good faith reason the count should be dismissed," Brewer said.

[Crispy]

A lot more crime scene photos at that link that Amy S. posted.

[Justice_Dawg]

A lot more crime scene photos at that link that Amy S. posted.

Blurry. :mad:

What is with all the money??? :eek:

[Crispy]

The money looks like it is on top of a pair of jeans or jean material, so maybe it was in one of their pockets.

they have the mens wallets and personal items on the disclosure list.

[Crispy]

In the first volume of the transcripts, the officer said that the boy told him the stepmother is not there on Mon. and Wed. she works until 5. It also says that the boy gets off the bus at approximately 3 (they hadn't checked the bus schedule at that time) and that the father and friend got off around 4:20 and get home somewhere around 5. That bugs me because I would like to know the time frame that the boy would actually have. If they got home around 5 and the neighbors heard shots around 5, how much time were they actually home? He first said that he was in the house for about 30 minutes and then went to the neighbors.

Just a lot of stuff that is not known, at least to us anyway

[Justice_Dawg]

In the first volume of the transcripts, the officer said that the boy told him the stepmother is not there on Mon. and Wed. she works until 5. It also says that the boy gets off the bus at approximately 3 (they hadn't checked the bus schedule at that time) and that the father and friend got off around 4:20 and get home somewhere around 5. That bugs me because I would like to know the time frame that the boy would actually have. If they got home around 5 and the neighbors heard shots around 5, how much time were they actually home? He first said that he was in the house for about 30 minutes and then went to the neighbors.

Just a lot of stuff that is not known, at least to us anyway

In the order for physical evidence of Nov. 19th, it seems the pros. don't even have the boys fingerprints, DNA, footprints ect.
How are they tying him to this crime? :confused:

[Justice_Dawg]

That's another thing. The money laid out like that, all one hundred dollar bills. Generally if money is found in a person's wallet, they would not take it out themselves and lay it out and photograph it unless it was suspicious money. Are they inferring the possibility there was a drug deal going on in the house? Particularly since the one officer made a comment about the drug activities in that neighborhood. Or some kind of illegal activity? Other questions are raised in my mind. Where was the step mother in all of this. Also, if the boy gets out of school at 3ish and the father doesn't arrive home until 4ish, who is watching this kid after school? Is he a latchkey home alone? I also read some blurb somewhere saying that the mother was quoted to say that recently the boy came to her and told her that the father and step mother had been fighting in front of him alot. She confronted the step mother and then the next day, the boy told the mother that the stepmother yelled at him to keep his mouth shut about what goes on in that house. ???? Hmmmmm. Could this have been the result of a marital quarrel or a marital problem? A ton of questions are raised about what was exactly going on in that house. People are questioning the relationship between the second victim/border and the new wife, the second victim/border and the husband and whether or not there was any physical or sexual or mental abuse going on with this boy. The mother said that the boy was emotionally withdrawing in recent days and that there was some suspicion on her part that something was bad wrong in that house.

Where ya findin; those blogs? PM them to me pretty please. I wanna read the dirt too!!! :D

[Crispy]

In the order for physical evidence of Nov. 19th, it seems the pros. don't even have the boys fingerprints, DNA, footprints ect.
How are they tying him to this crime? :confused:

The confession and the phone call IMO

ETA: Can I get the PM for the blogs too? Please?

[Justice_Dawg]

The confession and the phone call IMO

ETA: Can I get the PM for the blogs too? Please?


This tells me a lot. Check it out.

http://www.azfamily.com/video/geaz-index.html?nvid=304789

[martha]

Good grief.......when is this ever going to end. The murderers are getting younger and younger.

It looks like he lay in wait and most likely killed his father as he slept and then waited for the coworker of his dad's and shot him before he could even get in the door.

He probably killed him so he wouldn't discover his dad's body.

So sad.........it is a scary scary world. :(

imooiZI t a with you it is such a acary world we live in today. I bet it is not going to get any better. love you sweet lady.jmho:rose:

[Crispy]

This tells me a lot. Check it out.

http://www.azfamily.com/video/geaz-index.html?nvid=304789


None of the videos from that website work for me. I've tried on Firefox and IE and I get Errors on Page..can you tell me what it's about?

[invreporter1105]

None of the videos from that website work for me. I've tried on Firefox and IE and I get Errors on Page..can you tell me what it's about?

The site uses flashplayer. Do you have this installed on you pc? If not, go here..http://www.adobe.com/shockwave/download/download.cgi?P1_Prod_Version=ShockwaveFlash&promoid=BIOW .

After the program is installed, try the site again.

[Justice_Dawg]

None of the videos from that website work for me. I've tried on Firefox and IE and I get Errors on Page..can you tell me what it's about?

In the interrogation, the boy says he was walking towards the house and saw a white car, then he said someone ran out of the house and jumped in the car and it took off.
--------------------------

Makes sense to me now that we KNOW the boy said the door was slightly open when he got home... because we read the testimony that Tim's head was stopping the screen door from shutting.

Right? Or No?

[Justice_Dawg]

OMG!
This guy is prosecuting this child. HE IS A CRIMINAL!!:cuss:

Criss Candelaria

http://www.americaswrongfullyconvicted.com/criss_candelaria.htm

[Crispy]

In the interrogation, the boy says he was walking towards the house and saw a white car, then he said someone ran out of the house and jumped in the car and it took off.
--------------------------

Makes sense to me now that we KNOW the boy said the door was slightly open when he got home... because we read the testimony that Tim's head was stopping the screen door from shutting.

Right? Or No?

I don't think at first he told them someone was running from the house. In the transcripts the officer said that the boy just said the car was driving away. He(the officer) did say that the screen door was open against his head.

[Justice_Dawg]

I don't think at first he told them someone was running from the house. In the transcripts the officer said that the boy just said the car was driving away. He(the officer) did say that the screen door was open against his head.

I wish you could hear that video. He says it at the very beginning of the interview. I heard him say it. It sounded very truthful to me.

The cops just left some details out at trial. Had to get the child detained. barf

[Crispy]

Carlyon was the one doing the questioning in the transcripts.

I'm gonna try and get my computer fixed so I can watch all these videos. Sometimes they play and sometimes they don't. It's frustrating. I've installed the flash player and all that and they still don't work.

[Justice_Dawg]

On another site, they say that a motion was filed to have a Special Deputy County Attorney from outside of Apache County. It sounds like they got one, Bradley W. Carlyon from the Navajo County Attorney's Office. I can't verify this is true, but the person posting was checking court records and such.


But weirdly on your link it says:

"... an investigation may be gearing up against Apache County Attorney, Criss Candelaria, and his Chief Deputy County Attorney, Bradley Carlyon."


So maybe this amounts to no gain at all?


Motion to dismiss is signed by Criss Candelaria.

http://apacheschighprofile.googlegroups.com/web/JV2008065_Motion_To_Dismiss_Count_1.pdf

hmmmmmmmmmmm

[kjb0007]

The prosecutor in the case has now filed a motion to get 1 of the two charges dropped (the one against killing his father), simply stating:

"the state believes the interest of justice will be served by such a dismissal."


http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/11/21/boy.murder.case/index.html

[emdragon]

I think it is simple. They dropped 1 charge in case they go to trial on the other one and have trouble because of the interrogation. If that charge is thrown out they can always file the one for the Father at a later date after building a new case.

[Justice_Dawg]

ATTORNEY’S DEMANDS
8-Year-Old Killer Could Be Freed The Arizona boy killed his father and his father’s friend. He could be freed until the case is studied more thoroughly.

An Arizona 8-year-old boy was arrested after he killed his father Vincent Romero, 29, and his friend Timothy Romans, 39. The whole case shocked the police as well as the prosecutor’s office, especially due to the fact that there is a possibility the boy planned the murders.

But the county attorney’s office asked the indictment against the boy be dismissed, American media reported. The prosecution did not comment on the request, nor did the boy’s lawyer, Benjamin Brewer. Attorney Mike Piccareta, who is not involved in the case, said accusations could be dropped for several reasons.

There are several reasons to drop the case, some factual, some legal. This would formally mean that the investigation must continue, Piccareta said.

http://www.javno.com/en/world/clanak.php?id=206514

---------

OK. I'll believe it when I see it. :rolleyes:

[Kara]

I'm happy that they moved to dismiss the count, but I can't help but feel that there was an ulterior motive for it. I'm thinking they are either going to change the charge or they are only going to try him for one murder and if they lose go back and try on the other murder. Maybe I'm being paranoid.:shrug:I had to work last night so I'm just now catching up on the news....but yeah, its a bit concerning that they only dropped the one charge. Something is going on behind the scenes....

[Amy S.]

I can't figure out why someone else would kill the 2 men and use a child's .22.

I would think that the fingerprints on the shell casings will be enough to convict.

If that is only $500, I currently have that much - as I am getting ready to shop for Thanksgiving and Christmas.

[Kether]

Carlyon was the one doing the questioning in the transcripts.

I'm gonna try and get my computer fixed so I can watch all these videos. Sometimes they play and sometimes they don't. It's frustrating. I've installed the flash player and all that and they still don't work.

I had the same problem. Click out of the site and disable your firewall. Then click back in to the site.

[Justice_Dawg]

I can't figure out why someone else would kill the 2 men and use a child's .22.

I would think that the fingerprints on the shell casings will be enough to convict.

If that is only $500, I currently have that much - as I am getting ready to shop for Thanksgiving and Christmas.



They just got permission to TAKE the boys prints and Saliva for his DNA on Nov. 19th.

Go here and read the comments (a lot from the towns people who know the family personally .) They state Tim was a known drug dealer.

http://www.azfamily.com/news/homepagetopstory/stories/phoenix-local-news-110708-double-murder.18c702709.html#slcgm_comments_anchor

[Justice_Dawg]

I can't get past page one of the comments where they are talking about the corruption in the police department and the prosecutor's office. Can you give us a gyst of what they are saying about Tim ?
LOL
It's on page 3 close to the bottom posted by ME (not as in myself LOL)
QUOTE
Maybe the boy is telling the truth about coming home and finding his dad and his room mate, Timothy dead. Maybe someone did shot them with the .22 caliber and had left the gun out in the open, and the boy did come home and saw them suffering. From what I heard, Timothy is a known Drug Dealer in his hometown. Maybe it was a Drug Deal gone bad.
QUOTE

[bkwits]

Thank you, Justice Dawg. Something bad wrong with my browser that I can't turn pages on that website. I think that law enforcement from a different venue such as the FBI should be handling this case, not local yocals who are in trouble with corruption and abuse of power. And I want to ask why the attorney did not move for the boy to be released into the custody of a family member instead of holding him over as if he is a flight risk or something. He is obviously not a risk to society or a flight risk and the damage that is being done to him emotionally being held in prison is a travesty. I believe someone shot these men and the boy put them out of their misery because of training his father instilled in his young mind as a hunter. If this is the case, how could you hold him responsible for doing what his father brainwashed him to do? At 8, what your parents tell you to do is the law in a mind of a child. They know of no other law. All of this stuff about the police, the attorney, corruption, abuse of power, drug trafficking, it all needs to be let out via the media. Screw the gag order. There are ways that the media is getting information out already, the boys life is at stake here.

Hi Jan, I had trouble with getting the comments at first, but I went back to the site and found that I had to wait a few seconds for them to load at the bottom of the article.

ITA with you that many in the press have convicted this child. At first, I thought he had probably done it, but things just don't add up. For one thing, if Mrs. Romans heard muffled shots over the phone, why didn't her husband say, "Somethings wrong, I gotta go"? Instead of waiting until the child called to him. It is very confusing. IMO

[Justice_Dawg]

Thank you, Justice Dawg. Something bad wrong with my browser that I can't turn pages on that website. I think that law enforcement from a different venue such as the FBI should be handling this case, not local yocals who are in trouble with corruption and abuse of power. And I want to ask why the attorney did not move for the boy to be released into the custody of a family member instead of holding him over as if he is a flight risk or something. He is obviously not a risk to society or a flight risk and the damage that is being done to him emotionally being held in prison is a travesty. I believe someone shot these men and the boy put them out of their misery because of training his father instilled in his young mind as a hunter. If this is the case, how could you hold him responsible for doing what his father brainwashed him to do? At 8, what your parents tell you to do is the law in a mind of a child. They know of no other law. All of this stuff about the police, the attorney, corruption, abuse of power, drug trafficking, it all needs to be let out via the media. Screw the gag order. There are ways that the media is getting information out already, the boys life is at stake here.You are welcome. :)

You think someone else shot these men and the boy put them out of their misery?

With the same gun? :confused: I'll have to think about how that could have been done.

I also read on the comments (posted by friend of family) that Vincent was shot 4 times and Tim was shot 6 times.

Tim was shot outdoors.

[Crispy]

I had the same problem. Click out of the site and disable your firewall. Then click back in to the site.


I'll have to try that. I tried lowering my security settings, but it still didn't go through. I've watched the interrogation at other places, just not all at one time. I've had to piece it together from about 20 different videos!

Thanks for the tip! :seeya:

[Crispy]

You are welcome. :)

You think someone else shot these men and the boy put them out of their misery?

With the same gun? :confused: I'll have to think about how that could have been done.

I also read on the comments (posted by friend of family) that Vincent was shot 4 times and Tim was shot 6 times.

Tim was shot outdoors.

I've thought about this case way too much. Things just don't add up.

[Crispy]

ATTORNEY’S DEMANDS
8-Year-Old Killer Could Be Freed The Arizona boy killed his father and his father’s friend. He could be freed until the case is studied more thoroughly.

An Arizona 8-year-old boy was arrested after he killed his father Vincent Romero, 29, and his friend Timothy Romans, 39. The whole case shocked the police as well as the prosecutor’s office, especially due to the fact that there is a possibility the boy planned the murders.

But the county attorney’s office asked the indictment against the boy be dismissed, American media reported. The prosecution did not comment on the request, nor did the boy’s lawyer, Benjamin Brewer. Attorney Mike Piccareta, who is not involved in the case, said accusations could be dropped for several reasons.

There are several reasons to drop the case, some factual, some legal. This would formally mean that the investigation must continue, Piccareta said.

http://www.javno.com/en/world/clanak.php?id=206514

---------

OK. I'll believe it when I see it. :rolleyes:

OK, maybe I've gone off the deep end, but that is the first that I have heard about the wife hearing muffled sounds or shots. Did I really miss that in the other articles and the transcripts of the hearing?

[Justice_Dawg]

I've thought about this case way too much. Things just don't add up.
No they don't add up.

Someone really wanted Tim dead it seems. 6 shots. WOW.

In the interview the boy sound so sincere (IMO) when they ask him if he shot Tim he says "Tim? Why would I shoot Tim?"

[Justice_Dawg]

Justice Dawg, just to be clear, I think that the boy is totally innocent and walked into the crime scene and then made up the whole story about shooting these guys due to pressure from the police and being tortured into sitting in a closed up room and being grilled for an hour by strangers. However, I also have a theory that if they do find that shots were done by the boy via ballistics, that when he came home and found them half alive he shot them to put them out of their misery, because I think that this is something the father would have drummed into him during his hunting lessons. Never leave a wounded creature to suffer. And that would make sense. That would not constitute pre-meditated murder or make him responsible for these killings if that was the case. Brainwashing a child to think that playing with guns is okay and that shooting living creatures is okay is not the child's fault. It is the parents.

ITA
They should have taught him how to call 911 in an emergency.

MOO

[Justice_Dawg]

OK, maybe I've gone off the deep end, but that is the first that I have heard about the wife hearing muffled sounds or shots. Did I really miss that in the other articles and the transcripts of the hearing?

She knew about the car pulling up. Did she hear that or did Tim tell her that? :shrug:

[dfindr]

Listen up people. I live in Apache County, Arizona and here is the skinny. The County Attorney, Criss Candelaria, is history. He lost the recent election and will be out of office the 1st of January. The Special Deputy Brad Carlyon, is not a special deputy, he currently is a paid employee of the Apache County Attorney's office as a deputy county attorney. However, he is gone as of the 1st of the year as well, as he lives in a neighboring county [Navajo County], and was elected that county's County Attorney in the last election.

So bottom line this case will be ultimately resolved by the new county attorney once he is sworn into office the 1st of the year.

All the manuervering by both of these guys is meaningless, they are lame ducks and will have virtually no input into the final resolution.

BTW the new county attorney is a stand up guy and will do the right thing by this kid whatever that turns out to be.

[Crispy]

I do remember reading that she said she heard the boys voice calling her husband and he said I have to go the boy needs me. I know that I read something about a car pulling up, but for the life of me I can't remember where I read that. I've read so many links and articles that it's all running together.

I did read at the time of the hearing, the house had already been turned back over to the family. I just wonder if there is anything still left that the defense experts can look at or rely on as evidence. Hopefully we will be able to look at the ballistics and fingerprint evidence when it comes back.

[Justice_Dawg]

Am I reading this right?

Vol 2 Part A

Page 103 line 23
23 Q And in relation to the body in Picture 4, where is
24 that last shell casing that looks different than the other
25 ones you found.


:eek::eek::eek:

[bkwits]

No, I may be wrong but in the transcripts from what I read, the first police officer was asked specifically about that telephone call. What lead up to that was the question, besides this confession what else do you have directly linking this boy to this crime and the police officer goes, the phone call from Tims wife saying that she had heard the boy calling for her husband and that her husband said gotta go the boy needs me. And the boy's attorney asked her if Tims' wife heard the sound of the child's voice in the background, would she be able to recognize that and she said yes. How do you know? Because they were out to dinner together once with the boy and his father and she said she could recognize the boy's voice if she had to. And then he asked did Tim's wife hear any gun shots at that time or tell you that she heard any gun shots at that time and the police officer said No. And then he asked something about if Tims wife saved the phone call on her cell and she said no but that the telephone company may have a record of the phone call. She didn't know. I know from my kids that when they use the cell phone, we get an itemized bill so that would be do-able.

I did read somewhere that they denied the boy's attorney access to the crime scene to look around for himself and that several items were left at the crime scene after the body's were removed that they assumed belonged to Tim. A lighter, an inhaler a pack of cigarettes but nobody bothered to pick them up and dust for prints or Godforbid do any semblence of crime scene investigation other than walking through and taking pictures. The police officers who arrived on the scene first didn't even bother to take pulses to see if they had alive or dead victims at the scene. I feel Tim's wife is lying through her teeth like a scatter rug about hearing the boy.

I think I may have misread that Tim's wife heard the gunshots. Apparently she said Tim heard them and told her.

I am getting more confused the more I read. :shrug:

[bkwits]

Listen up people. I live in Apache County, Arizona and here is the skinny. The County Attorney, Criss Candelaria, is history. He lost the recent election and will be out of office the 1st of January. The Special Deputy Brad Carlyon, is not a special deputy, he currently is a paid employee of the Apache County Attorney's office as a deputy county attorney. However, he is gone as of the 1st of the year as well, as he lives in a neighboring county [Navajo County], and was elected that county's County Attorney in the last election.

So bottom line this case will be ultimately resolved by the new county attorney once he is sworn into office the 1st of the year.

All the manuervering by both of these guys is meaningless, they are lame ducks and will have virtually no input into the final resolution.

BTW the new county attorney is a stand up guy and will do the right thing by this kid whatever that turns out to be.

Thank you, and welcome to this discussion. We really need imput from a local citizen. What do you think of the case against the boy?

[Justice_Dawg]

Justice, I went through those transcripts again last night and I still could not find the place where that is. Could you please tell me what page from the transcript so I can go back and take a look?

Vol 1 Part A

Go from here:
Page 18 line 19

:seeya:

[Kara]

OK, maybe I've gone off the deep end, but that is the first that I have heard about the wife hearing muffled sounds or shots. Did I really miss that in the other articles and the transcripts of the hearing?
Hmmm....Tim supposedly hears gunshots and then goes to see what the boy needs? The wife had dinner with the boy once and thinks she will be able to recognize his voice if she has to... And we have more than one type of shell casing at the scene.

Why do I think the local PD has NOT "solved" this case by any stretch of the imagination?

BTW January, I saw you reference the death penalty earlier and the US supreme court has barred the execution of anyone convicted of a crime while a juvenile.

[Justice_Dawg]

I'm going fast as I can! :D LOL I couldn't resist. I agree, and I hope that the new guy will not be on a personal vendetta to string this boy up with lynch mob mentality like the other two.

I noticed while reading through the motions that 2 women steped down in this case.

The first Judge
A public defender.

Odd.

MOO

[Kara]

Hey, Kara, thanks for letting me know on the d.p. I read all over the internet every day about this case and so many people are saying so many things. Some are saying these sons of witches are going to seek the d.p. others are saying they are denying the defense the right to examine the evidence while others are saying that in AZ there are no age limits for children committing crimes or giving lwop either. Note to self do not raise kids in AZ.
No problem. Unfortunately we can still lock up our kids and throw away the key when they commit crimes as juveniles. I firmly believe we need to do something to change the system so that kids are truly are guilty of heinous crimes as juveniles have some sort of blended sentencing that allows them hope for release, based upon their own conduct during incarceration.

It just seems so wrong to send kids to prison for life when they commit a crime...yet we don't let them vote, drink, drive, live on their own, etc. because they are not fully baked yet.

[Justice_Dawg]

Any reason, Justice?

The new judge said she stepped down (he didn't give a reason) but stated that he wished he could step down too.

Seems nobody wants to prosecute this child except the village idiot prosecutors. :mad:

[Amy S.]

It is in the transcripts of the hearing.

The attorneys are asking about logistics and whether the judge will be keeping the case. The judge states that the first judge had excused herself and that he would like to do the same thing. He went on to say that he hoped that a judge would step forward to take the case.

Personally, I think that the case needs tranferred to Flagstaff or Phoenix.

[Justice_Dawg]

Where did you read this? I am missing too much and I'm lost navigating those court documents. Point me in the right direction, kimosabe!

Vol 1 Part A

Page 4 Line 6-12

Page 5 line 23 to page 6 line 2

[Justice_Dawg]

It is in the transcripts of the hearing.

The attorneys are asking about logistics and whether the judge will be keeping the case. The judge states that the first judge had excused herself and that he would like to do the same thing. He went on to say that he hoped that a judge would step forward to take the case.

Personally, I think that the case needs tranferred to Flagstaff or Phoenix.

Actually the judge said

"I'd like to pass it off to somebody else"

[Jayne]

I cannot fathom a child of that age putting that many "rounds" into a shotgun to kill two grown men..

just can't...

he probably coudn't kill a deer or a bear coming at him..full force..

BUT..he could..as other posters here said..put the men out of their misery..because..and IF..he was taught how to be a responsible "hunter"...that is what one does..they do NOT leave an animal injured in the forest/woods...they track it..they kill it.

Even thinking that puts chills up my spine..to think he'd put a bullet to his father and friend...but maybe so...depending on the circumstances. I have no idea.

I think if someone had shot me so many times..and I was in such pain and knew I was dying..I'd welcome my child..finishing it..but I wouldn't ask him to. I'd just ask for the pistol or whatever to finish it myself.

This case is astounding and very very sad..something isn't right here.

I still think the Mom did it..just that Agatha thing..

jmo

j

[Kara]

I was just pointed in the direction of YouTube from someone which shows a series of You Tube videos of kids that have been charged as adults and what their experiences are as children in the adult prison system. It is so heartwrenching and hard to watch. The judicial system is broken as it is with adults. It's a travesty with children. Here's the thing. The U.S. has a huge problem with places like Iraq abusing their women and children and we can start a war based on that alone, but here in the US anything goes with our kids. Where's the justice.
I disagree with you that we're in Iraq because of their treatment of women and children but this is not the proper forum for that discussion. I completely agree that the juvenile justice system in this country is broken.

[johnielee333]

I disagree with you that we're in Iraq because of their treatment of women and children but this is not the proper forum for that discussion. I completely agree that the juvenile justice system in this country is broken.

yes i agree with you that the juvenile justice system in this country is broken.

[johnielee333]

The new judge said she stepped down (he didn't give a reason) but stated that he wished he could step down too.

Seems nobody wants to prosecute this child except the village idiot prosecutors. :mad:

:seeya: hey justice, how are you ? IMO the prosecutors are jerks in this case.

[Justice_Dawg]

:seeya: hey justice, how are you ? IMO the prosecutors are jerks in this case.


Hey johnie!! Where have you been hiding? I miss you!

They are jerks but I think they are on their way out. :biggrin:

[blue bird]

I live in Pinal County in AZ. The first thing I noticed when I moved to AZ is the police presence! The Sheriff of the neighboring county, Maricopa, is a nut case for sure!

Any ways, I have a co-worker that actually talks to the boys family. She has had this boy at her house before. I think this is really about a drug deal. I wouldn't put it past these cops to be covering for someone. Has there been any explanation for the police visits to the house? Before I finished reading the comments I was already thinking that perhaps the boy put the men out of their misery as instructed to do when hunting. That was the one part of the interrogation that stuck out to me..."I think I shot my dad because he was suffering" or something to that effect. If the dad was a drug dealer, that may also explain why he would familiarize his son on guns and not keep them locked up.

My co-worker said the boy seemed like a normal very polite little boy and she was shocked that he could even be accused.

[interested]

Please stop making up the information as you go along.

Jayne, the weapon used was a .22 caliber rifle manufactured for a child, not a shotgun. There is a huge difference between the two.

[bkwits]

Hi there, Interested! Just for the record I would not know the difference between a rifle from a shotgun from an oozie so don't be too hard on us weapon illiterate folks out here. I think the main thing is that there were two different shells found at the crime scene which the police have already admitted to. This plus the fact that the "confession" stinks to high heaven sheds much doubt on the Sheriff's claiming "he got his man" or whatever he alluded to the media. I don't understand lame duck theory because to me if the person is still in charge he can take this to the limits and beyond and no one will be able to stop him. And I worry that the new guys coming in are going to take this high profile case and run with it as well, to put themselves on the map. I would be very interested in the coronor's report on the ballistics of these slugs (if that is what you call them :shrug:) and to see some hard evidence linking this boy to this crime. I would like to add that they can't get Casey Anthony on her obvious murder of her 2 year old but they can incarcerate this boy on the word of a bitter widow and a coherced confession?

I am totally befuddled about the shots, shells, and shell casings. I've read almost all of the transcripts and still can't figure out how many shots were fired, etc. Where did you find the info that more than one gun was used? I completely discount the so-called confession. Is there any record of what was said in the first interview? The one with Commander Avila?
She could have programmed him for the video "interview."

Here in my area we have Drew Peterson, IMO killer of at least two, enjoying himself and appearing on TV. He even gets his guns back.

[Crispy]

They found 4 shells by the father, two at the top of the stairs and two at the bottom. Also, it's been reported that Tim was shot 6 times. In the transcripts, it's mentioned that one of the shells near Tim (I believe) was different in some way. I don't think they ever said exactly how many casings they found in total.

As far as I know the first interview hasn't been released. Surely they recorded it or at least took notes. Right?

[Justice_Dawg]

I am totally befuddled about the shots, shells, and shell casings. I've read almost all of the transcripts and still can't figure out how many shots were fired, etc. Where did you find the info that more than one gun was used? I completely discount the so-called confession. Is there any record of what was said in the first interview? The one with Commander Avila?
She could have programmed him for the video "interview."

Here in my area we have Drew Peterson, IMO killer of at least two, enjoying himself and appearing on TV. He even gets his guns back.
Vol 2 Part A

Page 103 line 23
23 Q And in relation to the body in Picture 4, where is
24 that last shell casing that looks different than the other
25 ones you found.
-----------
It goes on to say that the "casing that looks different " was found closest to Tim's head.

So we (some of us here) figure that means 2 guns were used. :seeya:

[Justice_Dawg]

According to the transcripts and how I read them, there were so many shells at the scene that it would indicate there were multiple shots many more than just the two that the boy said he thought he may have fired two in his dad. In the transcripts it mentions that they took notes only on the first interview and that she didn't have them typed up yet but had planned to sometime real soon. With the gag order in effect (which I have read conflicting reports on whether or not that has been lifted because of some Constitutional loophole) would they be turned over to the media? I have no idea. I still can't for the life of me figure out why the attorney did not pursue these inconsistencies alot more vigorously during the probable cause hearing and get this case tossed. What is the deal with this meek attorney?

The defense attorney is not accepting the charges on his client. He has refused to enter a plea for his client.

[Kara]

The defense attorney is not accepting the charges on his client. He has refused to enter a plea for his client.
:confused:
How does that work? If you don't accept charges, doesn't that leave you up a creek w/o a paddle?

[Justice_Dawg]

Justice, I don't understand. What exactly does that mean? I thought you have to plead something if you have been charged. ????:confused:--Confused and Confounded

ADVISORY HEARING/ DETENTION HEARING
Nov. 10th

Page 1
Mr Brewer waives the reading of the petition and enters a denial on behalf of the minor.

[Justice_Dawg]

I was under the impression that meant that the attorney already read the Petition so no need for the court to waste time reading the petition, and entered a denial (as in defendant denies all charges). I might be wrong and I'm still confused and confounded.
Bottom Line

The boy's attorney has yet to file a plea, the broadcaster said.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/11/22/One_murder_count_vs_8-year-old_dropped/UPI-27991227390481/

[Justice_Dawg]

:confused:
How does that work? If you don't accept charges, doesn't that leave you up a creek w/o a paddle?

:shrug:

The boy has not entered a plea in the case, and one of his defense attorneys said he was not read his rights and did not have an attorney or a parent with him during questioning.

http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7013148412

[Justice_Dawg]

Legal analyst: Court motion in St. Johns case "strange," "extraordinary"


Nov. 22, 2008 02:48 PM
12 News

legal expert says he believes the murder case against an 8-year-old boy is significantly weakened after Friday's motion. Prosecutors asked a judge to dismiss one of two first-degree murder charges against the boy.

"This (motion) is extraordinary in the adult world. With juveniles, it's equally strange," Phoenix defense attorney Michael Black said. "This has just been a series of, I hesitate to call them blunders, but there have been missteps along the way," Black said.

Black provides legal analysis for 12 News and has been following the St. Johns murder case.

MORE:
http://www.azcentral.com/12news/news/articles/2008/11/22/20081122doublemurdermotion11212008-CR.html

At the bottom of that article:

There was no lawyer, no parent. It appears he (the boy) was not provided Miranda rights from the State of Arizona... My assessment is the police rushed to judgment in this. The prosecutor in the county took a look at the confession and said 'there's a big problem here," Black said.

[Crispy]

I found a site that will let me listen to all the confession, but it's in 4 parts. I'm typing it up as I listen, maybe I'm bored or curious or scared that when I go back my video player won't play it!!!

As I sit and listen it still amazes me that nobody was in there with him. Even with that, he is still answering their questions the best he can for an 8 year old child.

[Justice_Dawg]

I found a site that will let me listen to all the confession, but it's in 4 parts. I'm typing it up as I listen, maybe I'm bored or curious or scared that when I go back my video player won't play it!!!

As I sit and listen it still amazes me that nobody was in there with him. Even with that, he is still answering their questions the best he can for an 8 year old child.

Just my knowledge from the transcripts that the boys family was right outside the door, and they asked if they could go in with him but were told NO...FLOORS ME :flamemad:

[bkwits]

Just my knowledge from the transcripts that the boys family was right outside the door, and they asked if they could go in with him but were told NO...FLOORS ME :flamemad:

Same thing happened with the 7 and 8 year old little boys in Chicago who were charged with killing 11 year old Ryan Harris.

[Justice_Dawg]

This should give the defense plenty of ammunition to get these charges dismissed and a huge law suit for the mother to file (the pundits say the recovery could be in the millions of dollars!) if she wants. If she does and she wins the case, the kid will at least have a chance for a decent education and a decent future. My concern is his immediate situation and getting him out of that nasty rathole they are keeping him in.

ITA and I hope the mother sues the pants off of them!

[blue bird]

Hi, Bluebird. There are so many links on this thread linking to other websites where people from Arizona and particularly from this community are speaking out about the drug element, the crazy police, the wild-west mentality and the corruption in local law enforcement. Why do you say it would not surprise you to learn if local law enforcement were covering up for someone? Are they all on the take out there?

This case is physically and emotionally draining me. I can't help but think about this kid all the time. I am very worried over is safety and well-being. This is probably the longest he has ever been away from his family or his normal surroundings. There are so many inconsistencies and admissions of blatant negligence on the part of the police and local L.E. that I can't imagine why this Judge has not already dismissed this case for lack of evidence. I can't even understand how he got so far as to find sufficient cause to even continue with this. Why is the boy being held in lock up until the trial. It's so unfair. He still has his baby teeth for God sakes. What they are doing to him I believe is equal to torture. It's inhumane.

Law Enforcement seems to run the state here in AZ. Its very surreal. I don't have any specific info about police being on the take, the cops down here just seem real cowboyish & do whatever they want and answer to no one.

For the life of me, I can't figure out why they are hell bent on pinnin this on a 8yr old. There was no need to charge him before analyzing the evidence.

[Crispy]

Just noticed my post count. 666. Have to fix it. :)

[Justice_Dawg]

I am just posting portions of this article. You can read the whole thing here:
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/2008/11/21/20081121roberts1122.html
IMO- It is long, but Fantastic!

Boy's constitutional rights forgotten during interview
by Laurie Roberts - Nov. 22, 2008 12:00 AM
The Arizona Republic

The video of the now-infamous 8-year-old in St. Johns is chilling.

"Did you shoot your dad?" a sheriff's deputy asks the pajama-clad boy, at the end of an hourlong interview in which he was led ever-so-gently down the primrose path.

The boy rubs his eyes and he covers his face. "I think so," he says softly

--------
Only 13 states require that police allow a parent in when they interrogate a child.

That leaves 37, including Arizona, where police are allowed to keep parents - or any adult advocate - out.
-------

Mara Siegel, a Maricopa County deputy juvenile public defender who is working with the defense team in this case, said there is reason to believe that the boy didn't kill his father and another man. But she can't talk about it. :beer:

[Crispy]

Can you give us a link to that site?

http://www.kpho.com/news/18025753/detail.html#-

It's on the side of the article.

That confession tape bothers me more and more every time I hear it. I think that woman should lose her job. To hear her say his name that smart azz way and give her head a little shake. She knew it was wrong. She's supposed to be a certified forensic interviewer, and the other one is supposed to be on her way to be certified. jmo

[Crispy]

I'm completely shocked that at the end of the interview, and PLEASE correct me if I heard this wrong, when he said he's thinking he's going to juvy, she says it's kinda like when you got spanked for not bringing home your papers. Is she really trying to compare a spanking to possibly spending his entire childhood behind bars? This boy just told her he thinks maybe he might have killed his father and she compares it to him not bringing home his papers. Outrageous!!

[dete]

I can't figure out why someone else would kill the 2 men and use a child's .22.

I would think that the fingerprints on the shell casings will be enough to convict.

If that is only $500, I currently have that much - as I am getting ready to shop for Thanksgiving and Christmas.

No adult would use a kid's .22.I wonder why anyone would shoot everyone else in that house but not the boy.

[interested]

Hi there, Interested! Just for the record I would not know the difference between a rifle from a shotgun from an oozie so don't be too hard on us weapon illiterate folks out here. I think the main thing is that there were two different shells found at the crime scene which the police have already admitted to. This plus the fact that the "confession" stinks to high heaven sheds much doubt on the Sheriff's claiming "he got his man" or whatever he alluded to the media. I don't understand lame duck theory because to me if the person is still in charge he can take this to the limits and beyond and no one will be able to stop him. And I worry that the new guys coming in are going to take this high profile case and run with it as well, to put themselves on the map. I would be very interested in the coronor's report on the ballistics of these slugs (if that is what you call them :shrug:) and to see some hard evidence linking this boy to this crime. I would like to add that they can't get Casey Anthony on her obvious murder of her 2 year old but they can incarcerate this boy on the word of a bitter widow and a coherced confession?


That one of the many casings found at the scene was "different" in some way, means exactly that, it was different. It could have been a different manufacturer or it could have been a different caliber. I can't help but think a different caliber is easy enough to see & should have been stated that way. But we don't know, so speculating about it is useless without more information.

A poster on another message board who none of you know, claims the victim was a known drug dealer. There's nothing in the record to support that, but it's posted on this thread as fact leading to page after page of theory assuming information that's far from fact.

Isn't that what all of you are all so upset about? Your perception that there's been a rush to judgment? How is it possible you can convict the victim on such spotty information?

What ever happened to actually waiting to hear the evidence before deciding the authorities are hell bent on railroading an 8 year old child?

What exactly does the prosecutor or the police department have to gain by putting an innocent 8 year old in jail while leaving a true killer running free?

[interested]

Law Enforcement seems to run the state here in AZ. Its very surreal. I don't have any specific info about police being on the take, the cops down here just seem real cowboyish & do whatever they want and answer to no one.

For the life of me, I can't figure out why they are hell bent on pinnin this on a 8yr old. There was no need to charge him before analyzing the evidence.


Now this I can agree with completely!

The boy never should have been questioned by the local authorities totally unskilled in proper methods in dealing with a child witness & without representation of some kind.

If they truly felt this was their suspect, the public at large was in no danger from him therefore there was no rush to bring charges until all the evidence was analyzed.

[Justice_Dawg]

I'm completely shocked that at the end of the interview, and PLEASE correct me if I heard this wrong, when he said he's thinking he's going to juvy, she says it's kinda like when you got spanked for not bringing home your papers. Is she really trying to compare a spanking to possibly spending his entire childhood behind bars? This boy just told her he thinks maybe he might have killed his father and she compares it to him not bringing home his papers. Outrageous!!

You heard it right!

Glad to see you passed 666. :biggrin:

[Amy S.]

Does anyone know what the temperature was outside, the day of the shootings. I am asking because I am thinking that it was 50 degrees or so - and I am wondering if it was too cold for the boy to be out walking for a couple of hours.

I also wonder about the "bullet hole" in the screen door. How would a police officer know that was a bullet hole, as compared to any old hole pushed through a screen?

As for writing to the governor and AG, they would have no authority over this case.

I am hoping that, if this goes to trial, a skilled defense attorney will take the case and get it moved to another county.

[Kether]

I can't wait to hear the evidence regarding this case. It sure would have been nice if LE would have done the same. NO, I take that back, it is their job to wait on the evidence! There is no way in God's green earth someone can determine this child did this crime without all forenics. I smell a rat.

[Kether]

What bothers me the most is worrying that he is being convinced even more that he committed these crimes. I feel the longer he is in juvie, the more he may be led to believe that he committed these crimes. What happened to LE waiting for the evidence, which should be even more important since an 8 year old is being held responsible. If I was the mother I would be furious.

[Kara]

I found a site that will let me listen to all the confession, but it's in 4 parts. I'm typing it up as I listen, maybe I'm bored or curious or scared that when I go back my video player won't play it!!!

As I sit and listen it still amazes me that nobody was in there with him. Even with that, he is still answering their questions the best he can for an 8 year old child.
I've had trouble hearing the whole "confession" so if you do get it all typed up, are you going to post it?

I would certainly appreciate it.:seeya:

[bkwits]

It's not so far fetched that they are covering up for someone or that they know this is a groundbreaking case and they want to push it to the limits to make a name for themselves. I can only pray this backfires on them and that the mother sues them for every penny she can get and that they end up being investigated and taken down by a higher authority. This is the problem with alot of small towns. I'm sorry but when no one is watching these folks, they run amok.

It's not just small towns, January, the case against the 7 and 8 year old Chicago boys was just as bad as this one, if not worse. I can cite many cases in the Chicago suburbs as well. It's definitely rush to judgment. IMO

[Justice_Dawg]

That one of the many casings found at the scene was "different" in some way, means exactly that, it was different. It could have been a different manufacturer or it could have been a different caliber. I can't help but think a different caliber is easy enough to see & should have been stated that way. But we don't know, so speculating about it is useless without more information.

A poster on another message board who none of you know, claims the victim was a known drug dealer. There's nothing in the record to support that, but it's posted on this thread as fact leading to page after page of theory assuming information that's far from fact.

Isn't that what all of you are all so upset about? Your perception that there's been a rush to judgment? How is it possible you can convict the victim on such spotty information?

What ever happened to actually waiting to hear the evidence before deciding the authorities are hell bent on railroading an 8 year old child?

What exactly does the prosecutor or the police department have to gain by putting an innocent 8 year old in jail while leaving a true killer running free?

The boy stated in that interview that someone by the name of "Leroy"(sp) had a gun similar to his gun and that Leroy(sp) had brought that gun over to his house. (when he didn't say, but they didn't ask either)
--------
It was not a poster on another message board. It was a comment on the Local AZ Newspaper site. IMO, if it were not true about Tim, someone would have blasted that post. No local disputed it. Why?
---------
About hear the evidence. We know they just got permission to take the childs fingerprints/footprints/hair and saliva on Nov 19th.
What have they linked the boy to without all of that info?
---------
The prosecutor is corrupt and has charges pending himself. Did you miss that link? I can go get it for you.
---------
Did you catch the testimony of the first officer? When asked by defense if she knew the exact house she was going to, she said yes, she lived right by there.
Her partner actually said to her while enroute to the Ramano home that the body is most likely from a drug overdose.

I can send you links if you wish where is is reported that police had been called to the Ramano home for Domestice Violence. Seems it wasn't all roses in that house as some like to think.
---------

Now that they have had the boys samples since the 19th, I will wait for something/anything to tie this child to the crime. Otherwise, release him and look for the real killer.
JMO

[bkwits]

I've had trouble hearing the whole "confession" so if you do get it all typed up, are you going to post it?

I would certainly appreciate it.:seeya:

Me too. I have a hearing impairment and would be forever grateful.

[Crispy]

I'm fairly certain that the 22 used was a "youth" model. It was smaller than a regular 22 ?

Justice Dawg, Leroy is the boys grandpa and he said that he has the same gun except the boys gun is smaller.

I did attempt to transcribe the confession. I think I did a pretty good job, but it's much too long to post here on the board. Maybe I can post it in sections?

[Justice_Dawg]

I'm fairly certain that the 22 used was a "youth" model. It was smaller than a regular 22 ?

Justice Dawg, Leroy is the boys grandpa and he said that he has the same gun except the boys gun is smaller.

I did attempt to transcribe the confession. I think I did a pretty good job, but it's much too long to post here on the board. Maybe I can post it in sections?The grandmother had given it to Vincent when he was a teen, Vincent supposedly passed it to his son as per the grandmother.

At the hearing asking for the names of visitors: the mother?, someone yelled YES, step-mother?- YES, Grandmother?- YES, GRANDFATHER?- 2people SAID NO.

:confused: What is up with the grandfather not visiting?

What is up with that.

[bkwits]

That one of the many casings found at the scene was "different" in some way, means exactly that, it was different. It could have been a different manufacturer or it could have been a different caliber. I can't help but think a different caliber is easy enough to see & should have been stated that way. But we don't know, so speculating about it is useless without more information.

A poster on another message board who none of you know, claims the victim was a known drug dealer. There's nothing in the record to support that, but it's posted on this thread as fact leading to page after page of theory assuming information that's far from fact.

Isn't that what all of you are all so upset about? Your perception that there's been a rush to judgment? How is it possible you can convict the victim on such spotty information?

What ever happened to actually waiting to hear the evidence before deciding the authorities are hell bent on railroading an 8 year old child?

What exactly does the prosecutor or the police department have to gain by putting an innocent 8 year old in jail while leaving a true killer running free?

I have to defer to you on the shell casings since I know very little about such things. But don't you think it is odd that LE is saying they believe that there were ten rounds fired and there are no unfired bullets around? If the boy fired all the shots, he would have to reload nine times without dropping a single bullet. The Sergeant testified that the box of shells was closed and he didn't know how many were missing. I fincd that bit of info not credible to the boys shooting all of those rounds.

I don't know if the boy killed them. At first, I leaned in the direction that he did it. But now with more information, it seems unlikely.

As for LE and the DAs having an agenda. In many cases, they certainly do. I have followed cases in the Metro Chicago area for some 25 plus years, long before Internet became available. It is just horrifying. You may have heard that when he was Gov, George Ryan (now in prison himself) suspended executions. That was because since 77 when the DP came back, more IL death row inmates had been exonerated than executed.

In DuPage Co. (a collar co. of Chicago), State's Attorney Jim Ryan (no relation to George), sent two young men to death row. For years a Cgo Tribune columnist wrote about the inconsistences and another man in psrison had confessed to killing the 10 year old little girl, Jeanine Nicarico. Each of the two men had 3 trials, and were convicted, thanks to Ryan's zealousness. Both were later exonerated by DNA after spending 11 yrs on death row. DNA matched the man who confessed. Even after the DNA, Ryan said he believed they were there. Jim Ryan had the nerve to run for Gov of IL. Jeanine Nicarico's family spoke out against him when he did so.

Btw, the cops and DAs were tried in a trial called the DuPage Seven for framing, and manufacturing evidence. They were acquited. This wasn't only rush to judgment but political ambition. DuPage County is a well-to-do to middle class suburban county with many resources. There was not excuse for this travesty. So yes, they have something to gain. IMO

[Amy S.]

From chuckhawks.com -

. If you are very young, or quite petite, you may need a "youth rifle." These are typically lightweight rifles with stocks of reduced length that are comfortable for small people to hold and shoot. These are usually single shot bolt action types, because this is generally considered to be the safest rifle in inexperienced hands, and the most suitable for young beginners. Such rifles are suitable for informal target shooting and plinking, and small game hunting at short to medium range. If equipped with a decent telescopic sight, they can take small game as far as most other .22 rifles.

The most famous youth rifle is probably the tiny Chipmunk bolt action single shot, which only weights about 2.5 pounds. Other popular bolt action single shot youth rifles include the Marlin 15yn and Savage Mark 1-G. In the past both Remington and Winchester have made youth rifles.

[interested]

Who ever said it was a child's 22, would you explain the difference between that and an adult's 22? Did they have the stock shortened?

Why wouldn't an adult use it? a 22 is a 22...

Because it simply is smaller, it wouldn't be useful or easily accurate held by an adult.

http://www.gunblast.com/Chipmunk.htm

[blue bird]

Does anyone know what the temperature was outside, the day of the shootings. I am asking because I am thinking that it was 50 degrees or so - and I am wondering if it was too cold for the boy to be out walking for a couple of hours.

I also wonder about the "bullet hole" in the screen door. How would a police officer know that was a bullet hole, as compared to any old hole pushed through a screen?

As for writing to the governor and AG, they would have no authority over this case.

I am hoping that, if this goes to trial, a skilled defense attorney will take the case and get it moved to another county.

I don't know the temp that day but I know it hasn't been in the 50's down here at least during the day. It's usually in the mid to upper 80's.

[interested]

The boy stated in that interview that someone by the name of "Leroy"(sp) had a gun similar to his gun and that Leroy(sp) had brought that gun over to his house. (when he didn't say, but they didn't ask either)
--------
It was not a poster on another message board. It was a comment on the Local AZ Newspaper site. IMO, if it were not true about Tim, someone would have blasted that post. No local disputed it. Why?
---------
About hear the evidence. We know they just got permission to take the childs fingerprints/footprints/hair and saliva on Nov 19th.
What have they linked the boy to without all of that info?
---------
The prosecutor is corrupt and has charges pending himself. Did you miss that link? I can go get it for you.
---------
Did you catch the testimony of the first officer? When asked by defense if she knew the exact house she was going to, she said yes, she lived right by there.
Her partner actually said to her while enroute to the Ramano home that the body is most likely from a drug overdose.

I can send you links if you wish where is is reported that police had been called to the Ramano home for Domestice Violence. Seems it wasn't all roses in that house as some like to think.
---------

Now that they have had the boys samples since the 19th, I will wait for something/anything to tie this child to the crime. Otherwise, release him and look for the real killer.
JMO

A newspaper blog is the same as a message board, all I need to do is sign up and I can post anything I want. You consider that "proof"? Why would anyone feel the need to dispute an anonymous post on a newspaper message board, I'd be ticked if an official gave it enough credibility to even address it.

Let me get this straight? There's no record of any domestic violations, no charges, you have no idea who they were called to the house about, but that's enough to decide there were issues in the home, and on the gossip of the same police you don't trust for the evidence so far released in this case? The officer testified she knew where it was because she lived in the area.

Aren't you one of the ones screaming about hearing the evidence in this case? Yet you'll convict the prosecutor, who had nothing to do with this case until it was brought to him by LE based on charges not yet heard?

Yes, your threshold for reliability seems to be just a tad skewed & biased.

[Justice_Dawg]

Because it simply is smaller, it wouldn't be useful or easily accurate held by an adult.

http://www.gunblast.com/Chipmunk.htm


The gun used in the murders was given to Vincent when he was a teen. It's would be, the very least, 10 yrs old.

From your link:

For a few years now, the Rogue Rifle Company in Lewiston, Idaho has been producing a great little .22 rimfire that is sized for use by youngsters.

I'd have to dispute that as an accurate description of the gun used.

IMO

[blue bird]

The boy stated in that interview that someone by the name of "Leroy"(sp) had a gun similar to his gun and that Leroy(sp) had brought that gun over to his house. (when he didn't say, but they didn't ask either)
--------
It was not a poster on another message board. It was a comment on the Local AZ Newspaper site. IMO, if it were not true about Tim, someone would have blasted that post. No local disputed it. Why?
---------
About hear the evidence. We know they just got permission to take the childs fingerprints/footprints/hair and saliva on Nov 19th.
What have they linked the boy to without all of that info?
---------
The prosecutor is corrupt and has charges pending himself. Did you miss that link? I can go get it for you.
---------
Did you catch the testimony of the first officer? When asked by defense if she knew the exact house she was going to, she said yes, she lived right by there.
Her partner actually said to her while enroute to the Ramano home that the body is most likely from a drug overdose.

I can send you links if you wish where is is reported that police had been called to the Ramano home for Domestice Violence. Seems it wasn't all roses in that house as some like to think.
---------

Now that they have had the boys samples since the 19th, I will wait for something/anything to tie this child to the crime. Otherwise, release him and look for the real killer.
JMO

Last night on the local news they had a story on the dad's family going to the football game & missing him being there because he was a huge fan and that the family wanted to get out the word that the boy was never abused by the dad.

How does anyone know what goes on inside another household? I mean, do they the man would call them up & tell them about it? Abuse comes in many forms also; it doesn't necessarily need to leave physical evidence. They police were responding to something - right? Why is that never addressed?

BTW...drugs are a big issue down here. It is really noticeable.

[interested]

The gun used in the murders was given to Vincent when he was a teen. It's would be, the very least, 10 yrs old.

From your link:

For a few years now, the Rogue Rifle Company in Lewiston, Idaho has been producing a great little .22 rimfire that is sized for use by youngsters.

I'd have to dispute that as an accurate description of the gun used.

IMO

Yes, you do like to overlook the obvious when you've been given complete information, don't you?

http://www.gunblast.com/Chipmunk.htm

Youth model rifles have always been available from manufacturers of .22 rifles, but they have mostly been standard sized guns with shorter stocks and barrels, with all other dimensions being the same as for their full-size rifles.

[interested]

Whether it is a small 22 or not, they all shoot the same shells and are dangerous regardless the size.

All the stocks on the guns I shoot have been shortened...doesn't mean someone larger couldn't do damage with them

Agreed, but if they brought it with them, it would have been a gun they owned appropriate for them. If they took it from the fathers bedroom, they'd choose the adult rifle, not the single shot bolt action youth rifle.

[Hey Paula]

Agreed, but if they brought it with them, it would have been a gun they owned appropriate for them. If they took it from the fathers bedroom, they'd choose the adult rifle, not the single shot bolt action youth rifle.

I've read a few articles about this tragic case, but none of them mention the child's stepmother. Has LE spoken to her? Where was she when the shootings occurred? TIA for your reply

[Crispy]

I've read a few articles about this tragic case, but none of them mention the child's stepmother. Has LE spoken to her? Where was she when the shootings occurred? TIA for your reply

On Mon. and Wed. the stepmother worked until 5p.m.
During the interrogation, the police asked if the stepmother had been home that day and the boy told them, she told you guys she was at the store. So presumably, she went to the store right after work, because the first 911 call came in about 5:06 somewhere in that area. I believe in the hearing transcripts they did say they had a statement from her.

[Justice_Dawg]

Yes, you do like to overlook the obvious when you've been given complete information, don't you?

http://www.gunblast.com/Chipmunk.htm
OK, You win. :seeya:

The 8 yr old boy "methodically" shot his father 4 times upstairs in the home he then went on to shoot Tim 6 times outside. Reloading for each shot fired.

He must have really hated Tim huh?


:rolleyes:

[bkwits]

No adult would use a kid's .22.I wonder why anyone would shoot everyone else in that house but not the boy.

Is it known for sure that the youth's .22 was the weapon or the only weapon used?

It could be also that it was readily available. I just don't know, myself.

[Crispy]

Is it known for sure that the youth's .22 was the weapon or the only weapon used?

It could be also that it was readily available. I just don't know, myself.

The only thing I have seen on that, at least that I remember, is during the interrogation the two women told the boy that the police know that the same gun fired all the shots that were fired. I forget exact words. Give me a minute and I'll find it.

ETA: Found it.....Well, something that I can tell you that we know is that it was the same bullets from the one gun that shot your dad and shot Tim all the times. It wasn't a different gun, they can tell that , so we know that it was the same gun and it was more than one time that it was fired OK? (This was the woman talking to the boy)

[Hey Paula]

On Mon. and Wed. the stepmother worked until 5p.m.
During the interrogation, the police asked if the stepmother had been home that day and the boy told them, she told you guys she was at the store. So presumably, she went to the store right after work, because the first 911 call came in about 5:06 somewhere in that area. I believe in the hearing transcripts they did say they had a statement from her.

Thanks so much for your reply!

I was curious because I haven't heard or read anything about her other than that she had spanked the child, at the behest of the boy's father, the night before the killings.

[Crispy]

Thanks so much for your reply!

I was curious because I haven't heard or read anything about her other than that she had spanked the child, at the behest of the boy's father, the night before the killings.

I will admit I'm curious what she thinks of all this and what she said. I believe I had read that they had been together for two years and married since Sept. She would know about the boy and about his behavior and experience with the guns.
I've said it before, I hate gag orders!! Guess I'm just nosy.

[interested]

OK, You win. :seeya:

The 8 yr old boy "methodically" shot his father 4 times upstairs in the home he then went on to shoot Tim 6 times outside. Reloading for each shot fired.

He must have really hated Tim huh?


:rolleyes:

Please point to my post accusing this boy, or anyone else of committing this murder. TIA

OTOH, you've had no difficulty convicting the prosecutor, the victim and the widow based on nothing.

[justaguy]

i am frankly confused as to what are facts and what are not in this case..and about all the rulings. i AM SO GLAD tho that there is a healthy skepticism in the local/regional media regarding whether the boy is guilty. it will keep things more up n up. too many times the rush to find "somebody" results in a miscarriage of justice. if the boy did it..he did it (i don't wanna think so). but i do want to believe that whatever the outcome is, it is just. and this media scrutiny really helps.

[LindaNJ1216]

This CLEARY isn't a case of your average, normal 8 year old. THIS child is extremely disturbed and IMO a record breaking future full fledged psychopath.

[interested]

Is it known for sure that the youth's .22 was the weapon or the only weapon used?

It could be also that it was readily available. I just don't know, myself.


We think we know the weapon was the single shot bolt action .22 caliber rifle, at least that's what's been reported.

I don't think we really know it was the only weapon used since one of the casings was different in some way based on court testimony. That could simply mean a different manufacturer, or a different caliber.

If you open the links and read the thread from the beginning, you'll find the father discussed teaching his son to hunt with his pastor, while the step mom favored a BB gun first. Dad seemed to really want the son to be familiar with/unafraid of guns. There are crime scene photo's as well.

[LindaNJ1216]

Whether it is a small 22 or not, they all shoot the same shells and are dangerous regardless the size.

All the stocks on the guns I shoot have been shortened...doesn't mean someone larger couldn't do damage with them

There were adult far more efficient guns in the house. An adult wouldn't have chosen the murder weapon

[LindaNJ1216]

This is totally an improper arrest. What is wrong with this Judge that he cannot see that and continues to abuse this innocent child? I also have so much contempt for the prosecutor who insists he is going take this all the way to the moon if he has to. By already preparing an appeal in the case (I suppose he already knows there is not enough evidence on this kid and they are going to lose) speaks volumes as to where he is out of control on this. What's the matter. Doesn't Arizona have any ADULT criminals they can be railroading, that they have to resort to innocent children? What is wrong with this picture. And where are the civil rights advocates now that we need them?

'innocent" child? Please:rolleyes:

[Crispy]

i am frankly confused as to what are facts and what are not in this case..and about all the rulings. i AM SO GLAD tho that there is a healthy skepticism in the local/regional media regarding whether the boy is guilty. it will keep things more up n up. too many times the rush to find "somebody" results in a miscarriage of justice. if the boy did it..he did it (i don't wanna think so). but i do want to believe that whatever the outcome is, it is just. and this media scrutiny really helps.

I'm not sure he did it. I'm not completely sure he didn't. I haven't seen enough evidence to say for sure one way or the other. I do think that they questioned him and detained him with very little to go on. The whole thing is upsetting and confusing.

[Crispy]

Is anyone here besides me planning on sending a small donation to the attorney for this kid? Does anyone know if a fund or something has been set up for this baby?

Ya know, there was a video somewhere the pastor was saying something about a fund being set up, but he started to cry and couldn't finish. I don't know if the fund was for the boy or for the some kind of memorial. If I find it I'll post it.

[blue bird]

There were adult far more efficient guns in the house. An adult wouldn't have chosen the murder weapon

You don't know that the child isn't innocent and you don't know what weapon another person would have chosen.

Since you have apparently decided the victims were saints and the child is the devil incarnate...care to explain the recent police activity at the house responding to domestic violence calls? Or why a father would leave a gun & ammo with in a child's reach? How about why the step mom would tell the boy "what happens in this house stays in this house"?

I guess it is much easier to believe a happy healthy home produced a demon child that was cunning and able to pump 10 rounds into 2 adult men. :confused:

IF, that's a BIG IF, this child did this, the loss of his innocence, IMO, happened well before the shootings.

[Justice_Dawg]

Is anyone here besides me planning on sending a small donation to the attorney for this kid? Does anyone know if a fund or something has been set up for this baby?

I am sending some to the attorney for now. I wonder if the boys mother needs funds to stay in AZ with the boy. I bet she needs some help too. :seeya:

[Kara]

<snipped>

I did attempt to transcribe the confession. I think I did a pretty good job, but it's much too long to post here on the board. Maybe I can post it in sections?
Perhaps you could start another thread for just the transcription and post it in sections?

[LindaNJ1216]

Oh happy day, Oh Happy day!
Motion to dismiss
Count 1
Murder of Vincent Romero

Filed By the STATE.

WOO HOO :beer:


don't excite yourself.

The other is the ace in the hole! If the prosecution loses in the first murder trial it can charge him with the second later. There is no statute of limitations on murder;)

[Crispy]

Perhaps you could start another thread for just the transcription and post it in sections?

I actually emailed CW and asked if this could have it's own forum and I'm waiting for a reply. I'll look at what I have and see how I can break it up and how long it would be.

[Kara]

<snipped>
I guess it is much easier to believe a happy healthy home produced a demon child that was cunning and able to pump 10 rounds into 2 adult men. :confused:

IF, that's a BIG IF, this child did this, the loss of his innocence, IMO, happened well before the shootings.
You know...the fact that so many shots were fired bugs me. Were any of the shots instantly fatal? It is possible to kill a person with a perfect shot (using a .22) but unless you kill a man with that first shot, one would think they would overpower the boy while reloading.

Did he really kill 2 men with a perfectly fired first shot? And then just plunk extra rounds into their dead bodies??

A .22 is just a pretty small calibre and would mostly be used for squirrel hunting and such....

[Kara]

I actually emailed CW and asked if this could have it's own forum and I'm waiting for a reply. I'll look at what I have and see how I can break it up and how long it would be.

Cool!! Although if charges are dropped soon enough, a forum would be unnecessary. :)

[blue bird]

You know...the fact that so many shots were fired bugs me. Were any of the shots instantly fatal? It is possible to kill a person with a perfect shot (using a .22) but unless you kill a man with that first shot, one would think they would overpower the boy while reloading.

Did he really kill 2 men with a perfectly fired first shot? And then just plunk extra rounds into their dead bodies??

A .22 is just a pretty small calibre and would mostly be used for squirrel hunting and such....

Exactly, unless the first shot was fatal, I feel that either man could have over powered an 8yr old lone shooter.

[Crispy]

Cool!! Although if charges are dropped soon enough, a forum would be unnecessary. :)

I didn't even think about that LOL.

[Justice_Dawg]

Exactly, unless the first shot was fatal, I feel that either man could have over powered an 8yr old lone shooter.

Not one sign of a defensive wound on either man.
Does anyone else find this odd?

[LindaNJ1216]

You guys think that this case will be dropped? I don't. Geraldo Rivera last night brought up a question about this case being driven by someone who is awfully career motivated. Mark Geragos seemed very skeptical said this whole case is inappropriate and they both were stunned when they were talking about how the cops are quoted in the papers as saying they were "pushing for the kid to be tried as an adult" they both asked at the same time, if he is convicted, do they intend on sending him to adult prison????? And then Geraldo said, maybe they are going to look for his tiny little vein and both of them shook their head in disgust. I think they know this case is not going away.


Do you suggest an 8 minute time out?

The kid needs years of intensive therapy in a secure facility, the only way he's going to get it, is if he is convicted or pleads out.

Don't know about you, but I wouldn't want this kid going to school with mine or living in my neighborhood!

Geraldo is all about ratings and sensationalizing. Even if he's tried as an adult, it's not like he's going to adult jail or will never see the light of day.

[Crispy]

Not one sign of a defensive wound on either man.
Does anyone else find this odd?

I think it's odd. Also, if he did it because he was mad at his dad, why was Tim shot more times than his dad? Wouldn't he have waited until Tim was all the way in the house if he didn't want to get caught? Too many questions

[Justice_Dawg]

I think it's odd. Also, if he did it because he was mad at his dad, why was Tim shot more times than his dad? Wouldn't he have waited until Tim was all the way in the house if he didn't want to get caught? Too many questions

Yes, ITA ;)

[Kara]

Do you suggest an 8 minute time out?

The kid needs years of intensive therapy in a secure facility, the only way he's going to get it, is if he is convicted or pleads out.

Don't know about you, but I wouldn't want this kid going to school with mine or living in my neighborhood!

Geraldo is all about ratings and sensationalizing. Even if he's tried as an adult, it's not like he's going to adult jail or will never see the light of day.
You have obviously convicted this boy already. On what evidence did you come to your conclusion?

(Please don't say the confession cuz that ain't gonna make it into court and I don't believe it...it doesn't match the evidence)

[justaguy]

I'm not sure he did it. I'm not completely sure he didn't. I haven't seen enough evidence to say for sure one way or the other. I do think that they questioned him and detained him with very little to go on. The whole thing is upsetting and confusing.
yea thats wy i mainly visit this to see if any new info is out. the speculation can drive ya nuts...(me anyway-not passing judgement on the others posting here). and without more info...its just heartbreaking all around. but like i said am glad it has the media on it ...because i just want the correct outcome,whatever that may be.

[LindaNJ1216]

You have obviously convicted this boy already. On what evidence did you come to your conclusion?

(Please don't say the confession cuz that ain't gonna make it into court and I don't believe it...it doesn't match the evidence)

witnesses saw him go straight into the house after school. The phone call records between the dead roommate and his wife,(as roommate was being lured to his death), the gun used, fingerprints on the gun & casings, his demeanor & affect at the funeral, and all times after, other than his confession to name a few.

What evidence convinced you he was innocent?

Not sure about this case, being so high profile and all. but typically juvenile cases are handled in family court where the rules of evidence are far more relaxed and it's more likely than not the confession will come in.

[Kara]

witnesses saw him go straight into the house after school. The phone call records between the dead roommate and his wife,(as roommate was being lured to his death), the gun used, fingerprints on the gun & casings, his demeanor & affect at the funeral, and all times after, other than his confession to name a few.

What evidence convinced you he was innocent?

Not sure about this case, being so high profile and all. but typically juvenile cases are handled in family court where the rules of evidence are far more relaxed and it's more likely than not the confession will come in.I'm not certain he's innocent, but I'm not certain he's guilty. I just know I don't trust that confession...

Plus, how does a child manage to kill two adults with a .22 caliber rifle...and neither man has defensive wounds.

Different shell casings at the scene. The shot that appears to go from outside to inside on the screen...

Do you have a link to those phone records? Some of the reports about that phone call seem off...

And an 8 year old should never be questioned as a suspect w/o an advocate present. If police don't want a parent in the room for fear that the parent's presence would affect the truthfulness then a guardian ad litem should be present. Somebody needs to protect little ones. Do you remember just how young 8 years old is???

ETA...are ballistic reports back? Do they know for sure which weapon was used? Do they have prints on said weapon? I must have missed the news that this child's fingerprints were found on the shells, casing and weapon...

[Justice_Dawg]

Anyone know how skilled this boy was with his gun? Pastor doesn't put a date on when father asked him if it would be ok to teach the boy.

[LindaNJ1216]

I'm not certain he's innocent, but I'm not certain he's guilty. I just know I don't trust that confession...

Plus, how does a child manage to kill two adults with a .22 caliber rifle...and neither man has defensive wounds.

Different shell casings at the scene. The shot that appears to go from outside to inside on the screen...

Do you have a link to those phone records? Some of the reports about that phone call seem off...

And an 8 year old should never be questioned as a suspect w/o an advocate present. If police don't want a parent in the room for fear that the parent's presence would affect the truthfulness then a guardian ad litem should be present. Somebody needs to protect little ones. Do you remember just how young 8 years old is???

ETA...are ballistic reports back? Do they know for sure which weapon was used? Do they have prints on said weapon? I must have missed the news that this child's fingerprints were found on the shells, casing and weapon...

My son is 10, so yes, I am familiar with 8 year old boys. It's my understanding the boy was being questioned as a witness, as such....I see no problem with the interview. There was a gunman that murdered two men on the loose and the only witness was the 8 year old. Getting the truth from the boy was rather important.

Isn't finding the TRUTH more important when a child is involved .......if society ever hopes to rehabilitate him?

Where I live, juveniles aren't afforded the same legal rights as adults.

No defensive wounds means to me they were totally clueless right up to the end, neither suspected anything

[Details]

The confession still has all the marks of a false confession - inappropriately done, especially for such a young boy - looks just like several other proven false confessions. There's no past - he's known as a good kid, no issues with violence or other inappropriate behavior. Tim's blood trail directly contradicts the boy's confession, but perfectly matches his initial story, of a white car. The whole scenario doesn't fit an 8 year old in any way - from being such a good shot, to finding a ploy to lure Tim, to using so many shots. Any talk in the interrogation of them knowing the shots all came from the same gun, and his gun - that's pretty much definitely an interrogation lie - ballistics reports take longer than that to process! They can be pretty sure looking at wounds that it's a 22 - but to know it's all the same gun (when a shell casing looks different) - not likely.

For forensic evidence - I've seen none. Nothing about fingerprints, nothing about gunshot residue, nothing about ballistic reports. Rumors, maybe insinuations from the already known dirty prosecutor - nothing solid. The little we're hearing about where shell casings are, blood trail - none of it fits it being this boy.


He's an 8 year old boy, in shock at finding his father dead, in even more shock and traumatized at being locked up virtually in solitary in a juvenile jail and told he might live there for life. You wouldn't expect his demeanor to be anything like a normal kid who is merely mourning his father. We've got a prosecutor with a history of problems, police using inappropriate interrogation techniques on a child, not to mention failing to recognize any of his civil rights. Two dead men, and police are going for the easiest to convict suspect, pushing him until his story changes and they can make him confess. But an 8 year old boy will confess easy enough, if it's the only way he sees to tell the adults what they want to hear, so he can get out of that room. A little boy this age told CPS that daddy broke his arm - not because it was true - but because he figured it was what she wanted to hear, and if he said it, he could go back to playing soccer like he wanted. The confession is meaningless - unless it matches the evidence and is consistent - this one is neither.

[Details]

My son is 10, so yes, I am familiar with 8 year old boys. It's my understanding the boy was being questioned as a witness, as such....I see no problem with the interview. There was a gunman that murdered two men on the loose and the only witness was the 8 year old. Getting the truth from the boy was rather important.

Isn't finding the TRUTH more important when a child is involved .......if society ever hopes to rehabilitate him?

Where I live, juveniles aren't afforded the same legal rights as adults.

No defensive wounds means to me they were totally clueless right up to the end, neither suspected anythingJuveniles do have the same legal rights as adults. Their guardians are often supposed to be the ones enforcing them - but these police refused to allow his family right outside the door to come in.

The TRUTH is important - and interrogation of a child in that way isn't getting at the truth. He'd told them the truth, likely enough, answered their questions - they kept pushing for a different story. So he gave one. They admitted already that they changed their mind, decided he wasn't a witness, but a suspect - but they didn't do what was appropriate AND LEGALLY REQUIRED when they changed their opinion and their questioning from getting information to getting a confession.

We all have our legal rights. For a child, the adults responsible for him are supposed to be able to assert those rights. By keeping his family away from him, they prevented that.

[Details]

witnesses saw him go straight into the house after school. The phone call records between the dead roommate and his wife,(as roommate was being lured to his death), the gun used, fingerprints on the gun & casings, his demeanor & affect at the funeral, and all times after, other than his confession to name a few.

What evidence convinced you he was innocent?

Not sure about this case, being so high profile and all. but typically juvenile cases are handled in family court where the rules of evidence are far more relaxed and it's more likely than not the confession will come in.I don't buy the wife's story entirely. I'm not sure it's false, but it's not sounding quite right. The two men got home from work at the same time. The father was killed in his work clothes heading upstairs - no doubt to change, and in his line of work which was quite dirty, no doubt that's the first thing he did when he got home. So, how do neighbors hear gunshots - but not Tim, not his wife? You'd think he'd have been running in there fast without any call, hearing gunshots from inside the house.


What's the link on fingerprints on the gun and casings? Particularly the casings - it's his gun, his fingerprints would be on it, even if someone else used it too. But I've yet to see any of this evidence released - anything showing it was his gun that was used, any ballistics, anything on the casings, other than location, anything on his fingerprints on the casings, etc. What is your source of information?

[LindaNJ1216]

I don't buy the wife's story entirely. I'm not sure it's false, but it's not sounding quite right. The two men got home from work at the same time. The father was killed in his work clothes heading upstairs - no doubt to change, and in his line of work which was quite dirty, no doubt that's the first thing he did when he got home. So, how do neighbors hear gunshots - but not Tim, not his wife? You'd think he'd have been running in there fast without any call, hearing gunshots from inside the house.


What's the link on fingerprints on the gun and casings? Particularly the casings - it's his gun, his fingerprints would be on it, even if someone else used it too. But I've yet to see any of this evidence released - anything showing it was his gun that was used, any ballistics, anything on the casings, other than location, anything on his fingerprints on the casings, etc. What is your source of information?

It's not a very loud gun. Makes a popping noise than a blasting sound ........It would depend on the wind and the relation to the neighbor to the house.


Years ago I lived in a condo, my next door neighbor whose bedroom backed up to my own killed himself in his bed, while I was in mine. I never heard a thing:shrug: Yet a neighbor in another condo across from ours did...

[Details]

Hmm - on a quick search, all I find about fingerprints is the police telling the boy that if he touched the gun, they'd be able to find his fingerprints. Nothing saying they did. In fact, they haven't had his fingerprints, only recently got to collect that info - so where is this idea that they've got his fingerprints on casings or weapons coming from?

[Kara]

My son is 10, so yes, I am familiar with 8 year old boys. It's my understanding the boy was being questioned as a witness, as such....I see no problem with the interview. There was a gunman that murdered two men on the loose and the only witness was the 8 year old. Getting the truth from the boy was rather important.

Isn't finding the TRUTH more important when a child is involved .......if society ever hopes to rehabilitate him?

Where I live, juveniles aren't afforded the same legal rights as adults.

No defensive wounds means to me they were totally clueless right up to the end, neither suspected anything
You live in New Jersey, don't you? Last I knew that was still the U.S., so I do believe juveniles are afforded the same constitutional protections as adults...or they should be.

Obviously this boy went from witness to suspect and as such he should have been read his rights.

Like I said, I don't know if this boy is guilt or not...but it's highly likely he will live under a cloud of suspicion the rest of his life because some people hear the headlines and nothing will change their minds after that.

This child has been called a killer...not an alleged killer, but a killer. If he were an adult would that label be allowed? (prior to an adjudication of guilt)

In regard to your other questions I would refer you to Details' response. She(?) answered your questions more eloquently than I can.

[Kara]

It's not a very loud gun. Makes a popping noise than a blasting sound ........It would depend on the wind and the relation to the neighbor to the house.


Years ago I lived in a condo, my next door neighbor whose bedroom backed up to my own killed himself in his bed, while I was in mine. I never heard a thing:shrug: Yet a neighbor in another condo across from ours did...I regularly take my dog out running in the national forest behind my house. Since it's been hunting season I wear orange when out running. A couple of weeks ago (before gun season opened) we were out running and I heard somebody fire a .22 rifle. It scared the crap out of me because I didn't know who was shooting or if they saw me. I was shouting "people here, people here" and then I met the shooter face to face. He was maybe 50 yards from me when he fired the shot. (It was two yong men 18-20ish, out squirrel hunting...and he decided to fire a shot into the air while walking back to their truck). My point is, there was no question that somebody was firing a gun in close proximity to me and it wasn't big enough to be hunting deer. Nobody would hunt deer with a .22 caliber gun.

It was unmistakeably gunfire, small caliber gunfire.. How close are the neighbors? Why didn't Tim realize it was gunfire he heard prior to being summoned to the house by this alleged killer? Why didn't the wife realize it was gunfire? She should have been able to hear it on the phone if he was just outside the house.. Why did at least one shot go into the house from outside?

Too many questions...

Even if they ultimately prove this boy to be innocent I'm afraid too many people will have made theri minds up and still believe he's a killer. :(

[Details]

There are so very few cases, according to the experts, of a child this young killing someone deliberately. And there are so many cases we've all heard of, where the police get a false confession from a child or teenager - sometimes even an adult. And they're so sure, and the prosecutor will fight to go to trial with that confession, sometimes fight for years to make that case, and to prevent any other suspect from being looked at (the good old Crowe case - it took a bunch of demands to get them to finally test that sweatshirt that turned out to have the victim's blood on it).

And indeed, some did believe, likely still do, that the poor brother was the killer, because some people just can't believe, even when there's forensic evidence, that false confessions happen, that prosecutors can let their emotions and their desire to be right get the better of them.


The confession looks just as fake here as in those cases - worse even. The kid just sounds like he's trying to see what story will please these adults, so he can finally get out of there. And it doesn't match the physical details of the crime, the blood trail outside, the kid doesn't give the number of shots - nothing. Nor does it match an 8 year old's abilities - even were he a psychopath - nor does he have a history indicating any such tendencies - and those tendencies do show up, little stories of tormenting others, abnormal behavior - not the neighbors view of a normal kid with a normal dad, no abnormal trouble anywhere in the picture.

[Crispy]

witnesses saw him go straight into the house after school. The phone call records between the dead roommate and his wife,(as roommate was being lured to his death), the gun used, fingerprints on the gun & casings, his demeanor & affect at the funeral, and all times after, other than his confession to name a few.

What evidence convinced you he was innocent?

Not sure about this case, being so high profile and all. but typically juvenile cases are handled in family court where the rules of evidence are far more relaxed and it's more likely than not the confession will come in.

What happened at the funeral? I didn't get to read anything about that, but then again I came into this case a little late. TIA

[Crispy]

Thanks CW for the forum. Unfortunately I can't post my transcription on the board, but if anyone would like it just PM me and I'll get it to you somehow.

Thanks again CW!! I'm gonna start a Links thread.

[Kara]

What happened at the funeral? I didn't get to read anything about that, but then again I came into this case a little late. TIA
I was wondering the same thing but didn't wanna look stupid by asking. :chicken:

[Details]

...The interesting thing about the transcripts is that the attorney specifically asked the officer what evidence they have that directly links this kid to these murders and her answer was nothing. ...Really? This is very interesting - does that mean, no fingerprints, no gunshot residue (they've had the kids clothing), nothing? Interesting if true.

[Details]

Hmm - yeah, this too doesn't say he was at the funeral - and sure would have - it says he was in jail.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27600105/

LindaNJ - where are you getting this info about his appearance at the funeral? The kid has been in jail, the only thing there is is the confession tape. And with no fingerprints (they only collected them recently, no statement anywhere says they found his anywhere suspicious), how do you say you believe him guilty because of the fingerprint evidence too?

[steffaroob4]

Yes, read the transcripts it's all in there. They didn't even bother to take fingerprint residue from the child or what ever you call that gunshot residue testing. They admitted to this in open court. They never checked the bodies at the arrival of the scene to see if anyone was still alive or had a pulse. The walked through the crime scene and literally did nothing. Neither of these cops that showed up at the crime scene had any kind of training to investigate crime scenes. Neither of them had any training in interrogating children. All testified to in court under oath. They had very little training in anything . Doesn't this remind you of the bozo they sent to the Ramsey crime scene who let the entire neighborhood trample through the house for prayer vigil and allowed the father to lead an investigation through the house to look for his own daughter?

I don't know where this Linda from New Jersey is getting her information but it is ERRONEOUS like Moses.

I didn't see a link for transcripts in the links thread. Do you have a link? I would love to read it.

[Crispy]

It's somewhere on this thread. I don't have it available but it's here somewhere. I noticed on the front page it says that the trial is set down for 12/22. Where did they get that date? I don't recall seeing anything about a trial date. :confused:

It's in the filings. I think it says Notice to the Court RE Time limits or something like that. That's the last date they can go to trial or something like that. I'll look for it real quick.

ETA: yep, that's what it says filed on the 14th. I told CW if the trial date changed I'd let her know. It could be earlier than that, but I don't think so. Not with Thanksgiving coming up. They might make a motion to move it back.

[Amy S.]

Did this crime happen Nov. 5th? I have been wondering about the temperature and weather conditions for that day, because it might make a difference whether the boy was out walking around, whether Tim stood outside very long and whether the neighbors could have heard the shots.

I think it was mid 40s and very windy.

http://www.widespread.com/monthly.aspx?id=4481

[Crispy]

Yes, it was Nov. 5th around 5p.m.

[interested]

Yes, read the transcripts it's all in there. They didn't even bother to take fingerprint residue from the child or what ever you call that gunshot residue testing. They admitted to this in open court. (snipped)

Since the weapon was a rifle, there'd be no sense to doing a gunshot residue test on the boys hands. GSR is expelled behind the bullet from the barrel of the weapon.

When the weapon is a handgun, the result is residue on the hands.

When the weapon is a rifle the residue is propelled forward of the barrel away from the shooter. If any residue is present, it would be on his clothes which were taken for testing.

Unless there was a wind to bring it back onto his clothes, there won't be much.

http://www.firearmsid.com/A_distanceGSR.htm


First on scene officers to a homicide don't investigate the crime scene. They secure the area, check for other victims & wait for the crime scene investigators. It's not their job to investigate.

[Details]

I didn't see a link for transcripts in the links thread. Do you have a link? I would love to read it.I think this might be the link:
http://groups.google.com/group/apacheschighprofile/web/jv2008065