Amanda Knox will stand trial

[aubrey04]

Prosecutors are seeking the highest penalty for Amanda Knox -- life in prison -- for the murder of Knox's British roommate, Meredith Kercher. Italian prosecutors supposedly believe the murder was part of some satanic rite. I never knew what the heck to make of this crime, but I know a lot of people think Knox is guilty.. I don't think I had heard the "satanic rite" theory though.. Strange.

Here is the story:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081018/ap_on_re_eu/eu_italy_student_slain

[joolz]

Thanks for posting this aubrey. I think this case is fascinating, and I've leaned towards Knox's guilt. I've never heard satantic rituals mentioned in this, either. But I think it's all going to come down to blood, fingerprints and DNA.

[aubrey04]

Thanks for posting this aubrey. I think this case is fascinating, and I've leaned towards Knox's guilt. I've never heard satantic rituals mentioned in this, either. But I think it's all going to come down to blood, fingerprints and DNA.

Yeah. I watched the 48 hours episode on the murder.. (or was it Dateline?).. Amanda Knox really did herself in when she gave all those statements to the police.. all conflicting statements. I wonder why she would give conflicting accounts, if she wasn't guilty?

I feel sorry for her parents though. It must be very hard on them to have to deal with this. I read they go over to Italy frequently to visit her in jail... of course, their pain probably doesn't compare to the pain Meredith Kercher's family has to deal with every day.

What a sad, senseless murder. The satanic ritual theory seems sort of far-fetched though?!?

[GentleBreeze]

Yeah. I watched the 48 hours episode on the murder.. (or was it Dateline?).. Amanda Knox really did herself in when she gave all those statements to the police.. all conflicting statements. I wonder why she would give conflicting accounts, if she wasn't guilty?

I feel sorry for her parents though. It must be very hard on them to have to deal with this. I read they go over to Italy frequently to visit her in jail... of course, their pain probably doesn't compare to the pain Meredith Kercher's family has to deal with every day.

What a sad, senseless murder. The satanic ritual theory seems sort of far-fetched though?!?

I think the Prosecutor has evidence of some kind to prove his theory. Maybe things were uncovered concerning the other suspects and links to rituals and tortures.

It really does make sense to me and that is why the murder was totally macabre imo. A horrible crime with way too much torture inflicted. I think she is just rotten to the core. That is the scary thing we just never know what lurks in someone's mind when they seem to appear normal on the outside.

imoo

[juliekan]

Fox reporting that tomorrow a judge will rule whether Amanda and Rafaela(sp?) will go to trial. States that in the past, it seemed that their lawyers were working together, but that his lawyers latest comment points out that Amanda's DNA was also found. Starting to turn on each other?

[iluvmua]

In the current Issue of Marie Claire (with Courtney Cox on cover) there is a story about this case. They mentioned in the article that Amanda could be scentenced to 30 years in prison.

My question is this:
Is 30 years in prison the Max she can get in Italy?

Interesting Article too.

[nsm]

I heard in Italy, they can hold anyone for a year without any charges being filed. Sometimes we don't realize how lucky we are living in the good ole USA!

[nsm]

http://www.marieclaire.com/world/articles/italian-exchange-student-murder?click=main_sr

Thanks, here's the link.
:shrug: about 30 years, but FOX said she might get life in prison.


Thanks for sharing that. it was a great article. I feel bad for everyone involved with this nightmare. But that poor girl was murdered and someone obviously did it. I think I feel more for amanda mother!

[juliekan]

Fox reporting that the judge has been in chambers for 9 hours (it is 7:30pm over there) but decision on Amanda still expected today.

[Snoopy50]

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Meredith-Kercher-Murder-Guilty-Verdict-Italian-Judge-Gives-Rudy-Hermann-Guede-30-Years/Article/200810415131265?lpos=World_News_Top_Stories_Header _1&lid=ARTICLE_15131265_Meredith_Kercher_Murder_Guilt y_Verdict%3A_Italian_Judge_Gives_Rudy_Hermann_Gued e_30_Years

Guede Jailed, Knox and Sollecito to stand trial.

I don't know what to think of this case. If she is guilty, she should be punished, but if she is being railroaded.....:shrug:

[nsm]

I don't know what to think of this case. If she is guilty, she should be punished, but if she is being railroaded.....:shrug:


I know what you mean. But she did confess to it at first. I never understood someone doing that.

[Snoopy50]

I know what you mean. But she did confess to it at first. I never understood someone doing that.
Did she really, or was she forced to? Seriously, I do not know, but if what they say about other countries and their laws, anything could be the truth. It doesn't make a lot of sense, a kid who has never been in trouble doing such a horrid thing?:shrug:

[velvetbrown]

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Meredith-Kercher-Murder-Guilty-Verdict-Italian-Judge-Gives-Rudy-Hermann-Guede-30-Years/Article/200810415131265?lpos=World_News_Top_Stories_Header _1&lid=ARTICLE_15131265_Meredith_Kercher_Murder_Guilt y_Verdict%3A_Italian_Judge_Gives_Rudy_Hermann_Gued e_30_Years

Guede Jailed, Knox and Sollecito to stand trial.

Good for Guede. Hope Knox is knext...

[aubrey04]

They are seeking a LIFE SENTENCE for Amanda Knox. Also, in the article I posted on that link - prosecutors allege that Meredith's death was carried out for some bizarre Satanic ritual of some sort.

Very strange case.. Amanda Knox creeps me out for some reason.. although I am not sure she is guilty. I am confused over all of it.. but I do feel sorry for her parents. I read in an article that they fly to Italy often to visit her in jail.

VERY sad case all the way around... I don't know what to make of it all.

[Snoopy50]

Good for Guede. Hope Knox is knext...

Can you explain why you feel this way? I have followed this case a bit, but I must be missing a lot. Something just doesn't feel right so I would appreciate your input.:seeya:

[nsm]

Did she really, or was she forced to? Seriously, I do not know, but if what they say about other countries and their laws, anything could be the truth. It doesn't make a lot of sense, a kid who has never been in trouble doing such a horrid thing?:shrug:

Forced to? Could you be forced to say you murdered someone?

[nsm]

thanks, nsm


Your welcome. Now they are waiting to hear if she can get out on house arrest. Her parents were on the Today show. They were so upset and expected a different outcome. On the other hand, the family of the murdered girl has been kind of quiet. They must be going through their own nightmare as well.

[Snoopy50]

Forced to? Could you be forced to say you murdered someone?

Maybe forced is the wrong word. Maybe they "convinced" her into confessing? Most have heard of nightmare interrogations, possibly this was the case here? I am not defending her, if she is guilty so be it, but what if she isn't?:read:

[Debb]

Maybe forced is the wrong word. Maybe they "convinced" her into confessing? Most have heard of nightmare interrogations, possibly this was the case here? I am not defending her, if she is guilty so be it, but what if she isn't?:read:

Even though it sounds very strange that someone would confess to something they didn't do, it does happen. I saw a special on tv about people who did confess and it was later proven for certain they were NOT guilty. (They found DNA or other iron clad proof of their innocence) It is some kind of psychological phenomana that occurs in some people, especially those who are young, uneducated, and docile.

I don't know if that is what happened in the Knox case or not. I have seen little information on this case. I did hear that she had told inconsistent stories. It sounded like something was fishy.

I do have a problem with people such as her friends, saying that she is not capable of committing this crime. People are not always as they seem. Seemingly ordinary people commit horrible crimes all the time. Their neighbors and family then say, Man, he seemed like such a nice guy, it's hard to believe. So why people continue to make statements like that I don't understand. You never truly know what another person is capable of doing, especially when they are associating closely with another person who has a lot of influence over them.

I look forward to finding the facts about this case.

[Snoopy50]

Even though it sounds very strange that someone would confess to something they didn't do, it does happen. I saw a special on tv about people who did confess and it was later proven for certain they were NOT guilty. (They found DNA or other iron clad proof of their innocence) It is some kind of psychological phenomana that occurs in some people, especially those who are young, uneducated, and docile.

I don't know if that is what happened in the Knox case or not. I have seen little information on this case. I did hear that she had told inconsistent stories. It sounded like something was fishy.

I do have a problem with people such as her friends, saying that she is not capable of committing this crime. People are not always as they seem. Seemingly ordinary people commit horrible crimes all the time. Their neighbors and family then say, Man, he seemed like such a nice guy, it's hard to believe. So why people continue to make statements like that I don't understand. You never truly know what another person is capable of doing, especially when they are associating closely with another person who has a lot of influence over them.

I look forward to finding the facts about this case.
Very insightful post, I appreciate your thoughts. It will be interesting, albeit so sad for all involved.

[nsm]

Maybe forced is the wrong word. Maybe they "convinced" her into confessing? Most have heard of nightmare interrogations, possibly this was the case here? I am not defending her, if she is guilty so be it, but what if she isn't?:read:

I think you are probably right on this. Oprah had a guy on who confessed to killing his parents and 15 years later, they found out he did not do it and did find the real killer. He was weak. I guess what I was saying is that I just dont understand it. Its not something I would do. I know I would never confess to something I didnt do no matter what they did to me. But some do. I hope thats not the case in the Knox situation. I just hope they investigate it properly so that the person responsible is prosecuted. I know her DNA was on things at the apartment, but she did live there. I would hate to think this poor kid was blamed for this if she didnt do it. Its a horrible situation for her and her family and for the girl who was murdered.

[Mandymax]

I'm glad there's a thread on this case! It's fascinated me from the beginning. The fact that Amanda has given so many different stories about what she was doing when that night - and outright pointed the finger at someone who was later cleared - has always led me to believe she's definitely hiding something, plus it sounds as though she and Meredith weren't exactly close. If Amanda wasn't directly involved, I tend to think she at least has some knowledge of the crime.

As always, my own opinion.

[juliekan]

There was a report on this case on either Fox or GMA this am, and the "facts" by what was either a lawyer or a reporter was completely different from what I have heard or read in the past. Will go back and read the links....thanks!

[gmr32]

You're quite right about The Times coverage. I've been following this case through reading their reports but I haven't posted on it before. Unlike you, I've already made up my mind and I believe her to be guilty. She said that she and Solecito had never met Guede but now here's a witness who saw the three of them together a few days before the murder. Good for her ex-boss looking for damages after she tried to implicate him as the murderer. Her story has changed too many times for me to believe it. The truth doesn't change. What happened happened and it stays that way.

I'm interested to see if she Sollecito will turn on each other now that they're not a couple any more. If they do, then it will be interesting to hear what they say.

[gmr32]

I meant if they would actually each accuse the other of murdering Meredith while he/she just stood there and watched. Or slept. Or whatever. Thanks for the link.

[catdoc]

Yes, Don't you just know that's what will happen. It's already started as soon as the pre-trial convinced the "boyfriend" he was not going to skate. I can see some real cut throat behavior coming up. OH--pun was unintentional. Anyway, glad there is someone else keeping up with this one. It's got everything. And it keeps my mind off Casey Anthony.

[gmr32]

I agree. It does have everything. I can't wait for Guede to testify. And the witness who saw the 3 of them together before the murder. And yes, I'm waiting to see which one of them goes for the other's jugular first.

[lunchlady]

Foxy Knoxy is in a boxy, and she will probably stay there.
I've been to Perugia and it's lovely, very old and well-preserved at least up on top of the hill. I wouldn't mind living there, but not as a prisoner.

This crime is really horrifying and as a woman I especially feel horrified that a woman might have participated in it. Women often depend on other women to help them stay safe in the world, but if guilty Knox went against this unwritten rule.

[cherylt]

GMR32 - Thank you SOO much for the article you posted. It was interesting to get some remarks from the defense attorneys.

Very strange that opening remarks start on 1/16 and then there is no court until 2/6. Maybe some kind of Italian holiday season...who knows?

[iluvmua]

Does anybody know how many hours ahead Perugia, Italy is from the United States? and what Time is it over there?

[catdoc]

GMR32 - Thank you SOO much for the article you posted. It was interesting to get some remarks from the defense attorneys.

Very strange that opening remarks start on 1/16 and then there is no court until 2/6. Maybe some kind of Italian holiday season...who knows?

The opening day was to be nothing more than an opportunity to set dates and clear up details, including whether Knox's original confession on Nov. 6, 2007, should be admissible. During that interrogation, which resulted in what Knox's attorneys call her "false confession," she accused her then-boss, Congolese pub owner Patrick Lumumba, of the murder. The confession led to the arrest of Knox, Sollecito and Lumumba, though the latter was later released for lack of evidence. Lumumba, who was also in court today, is suing Knox for damages in a civil case that is running in tandem with the criminal trial. Knox is also formally charged with criminal false accusation for the claims she made against Lumumba. The judge did not make a definitive ruling on the admissibility of the confession, which was made without the presence of an attorney or interpreter, and which Knox later retracted. If the confession is thrown out entirely, it will be difficult to prove Lumumba's civil claims and the charges of criminal false accusation.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/180004 This is the only explanation for the next hearing being so far away. Judge needs to rule on some evidence and set official dates.

[catdoc]

Anybody ever heard of a civil trial running with the criminal trial? Must be a Italian or European thing.

[gmr32]

A link to the article I posted.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/world/5266383/british-student-murder-trial-opens-in-italy/

I don't know a lot about Italian court procedure. But I guess I'll learn.

[cherylt]

Does anybody know how many hours ahead Perugia, Italy is from the United States? and what Time is it over there?

methinks they are 6 hours ahead of eastern; so it should be 9:00 pm (east) 3 am (Monday, the 19th am) in Italy - as of right now anway.

[cherylt]

http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/world/5265991/pair-accused-of-uk-students-murder/

Last paragraph says:
Prosecutors have indicated the court intends to hold a maximum of two sessions of the trial each week. Lawyers say it could last a year.

OK well that is a different court system. Now I understand why they'll be taking so long. Glad I don't have to foot the lawyers' bills.

Well, if the judge rules the 'false confession' inadmissible then Lumumba's not going to get diddly, I would suspect.

Two sessions a week max? Ugh - will take longer than the OJ trial (and I know someone else compared this to Europe's version of it - however they didn't have 2 day weeks... :)

Maybe PSII will even be done by then... :smile:

[cherylt]

Thanks for the additional information. When I heard "trial starts" and defense makes "opening arguments", it's usually full speed ahead here. I guess I'll need to know a lot more about Italian law throughout the coming days, but I thought that "confession" was coming in and would be addressed thru cross. Didn't know they haven't settled it yet... Interesting. I still can't figure out why the heck she would blame her BOSS of all people! That boggles my mind. Unless, big if, there was a translation problem which she has been claiming almost all along...

[gmr32]

Lost in translation? I don't know. Ms Knox hasn't had too many probs dealing with e-mails from her admirers while she's been in custody. She must be able to speak some Italian, not legal jargon I understand that but..I think the Italian authorities have obviously gone into a lot of detail about this prosecution because they've waited so long before proceeding. Anyway, we shall see.

[augustus]

As someone who was born and raised in Italy, and visits frequently, here are some facts as to Italian justice.
They're very liberal, no death penalty and nobody ever does life.
In the '70s they had this terrorist group, (The Red Brigades), that committed many murders and kidnappings. Most of the terrorists were out of prison after 18 years or so. If Amanda gets life chances are she'll be out of prison after 15 years or so. For lesser crimes they prefer house arrest over incarceration. I actually know people that were sentenced to house arrest for fraud, burglary, and the likes.

The laws are different, in that they can interrogate a suspect and not allow a lawyer present until LE is done with them.
I highly doubt there's any torture involved, or forced confessions. I have never heard anyone ever accuse Italian authorities of that.
They have a thing where they put a witness and a defendant in the same room and let them confront each-other. In other words the defendant can talk to the witness and dispute the testimony.
Trials go on forever with frequent breaks. They can decide to take two weeks off, or even more, in the middle of the trial. In summer trials they often adjourn for the entire month of August.
Judges get to ask lots of questions, and are more or less part of the prosecution. Defendants are not presumed innocent until proven guilty.
Contrary to the U.S. a verdict can be appealed, even a non guilty verdict.
Most trials they have a 3 judge panel that decides the outcome.

[logbump]

Thanks, Augustus.:biggrin:

[augustus]

BTW, don't be surprised if this trial lasts almost a year or so.

My paesanos have not grasped the concept of a speedy trial yet.
They love to take breaks and also make long speeches....

I believe one of the reasons Knox is still in jail is because she's a foreigner and thus a flight risk. If she was an Italian citizen she'd probably be out on bail by now.

[penguin01]

BTW, don't be surprised if this trial lasts almost a year or so.

My paesanos have not grasped the concept of a speedy trial yet.
They love to take breaks and also make long speeches....

I believe one of the reasons Knox is still in jail is because she's a foreigner and thus a flight risk. If she was an Italian citizen she'd probably be out on bail by now.

So do they have "Italy's Most Wanted" over there? Surely they must be missing a few criminals with their system.
Do they allow filming in the courts? I wonder how much we will get to see.

[catdoc]

I had posted 3 times with links to articles in the Times of London for an overview of the story with all backstories, alink to Amanda pictures and articles in Europeans press, and a link to an Italian ducumentary with defendants,investigators, locations, etc. Also one post pointing out inconcistances in the Marie Claire article.

They have all been deleted. What's going on?

[catdoc]

All posts with links to European press (mostly Times of London) were deleted. The only one left with a link was to newsday. I'm bumfuzzled. I did hours of research to provide the full story.

Now they are gone. What could have happened?

[cherylt]

All posts with links to European press (mostly Times of London) were deleted. The only one left with a link was to newsday. I'm bumfuzzled. I did hours of research to provide the full story.

Now they are gone. What could have happened?


Coldwater started a forum w/ a links (sticky) thread. Just go to "In Session Message Boards" (main menu) and you will see the Amanda Knox link, when you click on it, there are three threads & 2 are just links... Great articles you posted. Thanks again!

[catdoc]

thanks Cherylt, I had just found them there and came back and found your answer. Still frustrating because my discussion and comments on the articles were also moved. Makes gmr3 sound like she's talking to herself because we were "talking". Oh well, I'm still pretty new to MBs so I have a lot to learn. Wonder if every time we comment and post a link for reference if it will be moved.?

[augustus]

So do they have "Italy's Most Wanted" over there? Surely they must be missing a few criminals with their system.
Do they allow filming in the courts? I wonder how much we will get to see.


Yes, they have "most wanted". Mostly at large mafia chiefs.
They usually place defendants in a large cage in the court-room, though I read they're not doing that with Knox.

They don't have live trials, but they do shoot some footage of the proceedings, mostly without sound, that they show on the evening news. Most of the info will come from the print press.......

Here's an article on how Italians feel about the trial.....

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10552470&ref=rss

[catdoc]

I think it will be hard to argue that the language barrier was a reason for Amanda's confession('s). She was a communication student studying German and Italian in Seattle, she had traveled to Italy more than once before moving there to study and frequently wrote in Italian in her diary and Myspace. She also had an Italian boyfriend, had reportedly bragged about sleeping with several other Italian men her 1st week there and spoke Italian to her 2 Italian roommates.

It seems both prosecutors and defense expected her to get house arrest. The defense asked that she be released to a home for drug addicts and troubled young women. You have to think that Flight risk was part of his decision to deny prison release but he stated,in the Times that release was being denied because the defendants were "mentally unstable, dangerous, and may offend again".

The latest news release reveals Knox "flirted with Sollecito" when given a private moment. Sure sounds like she wants to manipulate him into not testifying against her.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article554093

Other souces are in Links thread.

[legalease]

Forced to? Could you be forced to say you murdered someone?


Read up!

Coerced Confessions (amongst other types):

Central Park Jogger case where five teenagers confessed until DNA exonerated them...

Stephanie Crowe case where her brother Stephen Crowe was coerced and confessed along with his buddies Josh Treadway and Aaron Hauser until DNA exonerated them...

Pizza Hut murder where one man’s confession implicated yet another man and it was years later that DNA exonerated them...

And on, and on and on …. and that's in the USA!!!

Here's a start:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_confession

[legalease]

I honestly have to wonder if the Italian police don't have an 'Inspector Clouseau' type involved (you know, from the movie the 'Pink Panther').

I've followed this case lightly and there is NOTHING to suggest RITUAL SEX and I just about lost it watching Jane whats-her-name tonight stumble all over the '666' and 'Satanic' and 'Sex' words - Geraldo Rivera must be behind this!!!! Makes no sense (at least yet). IMHO:thumbdown::thumbdown:

P.S.
I'm not on any 'side' yet - however - the European tabloids have painted a rather maudlin picture of this young American and her Italian boyfriend - kinda like here in North America...

[mafitz701]

Okay I am confused. Amanda did or did not kill Meredith? It sounds like Guida and Sollecito sexually assaulted Meredith and then killed her? She was found naked "chest down", dna from Guida and Sollecito were recovered from her, Guida's dna recovered from inside of her, Sollecito's dna was found on a bra.

It doesn't sound satanic to me either. It sounds like Guida raped Meredith (sorry I just don't buy the consentual orgy thing because her throat was slashed open), Sollecito or Guida killed her to keep her quiet. Which would explain why Sollecito left DNA evidence on clothing, but none was found on Meredith's body. No DNA from Amanda was found on Meredith's body, unless I missed something.

Guida's dna was found inside of her body, so he was known to have been in direct contact with her. So he rapes her, Sollecito and Amanda are in the room watching him? Or Sollecito is watching him or holding Meredith down, but manages not to leave any trace evidence with DNA on her body, and one of the three kills her...

Who would be the most likely to kill her if they just raped her? It would be Guida. Unless they set the whole thing up to have Guida rape her, and then it got out of hand, and they decided that she had to be killed. But the killing would have had to taken place right after the rape because going by how she was found, she did not have time to try to make a run for it.

I think its going to be hard to prove Amanda's role in the actual killing unless she has really bad defense attorneys. The Italian forensic experts are not calling it a rape, but I find it strange that one of the men accused of murdering her had "consensual sex" with her and then proceeded to slash her throat or stand by why Amanda or Sollecito did. We have heard the "consensual sex" line way too many times with rapists who ended up killing their victims.

The unreliability of the testimony of the three accused is also going to make it hard to find out what actually happened.

The other problem is lack of motive for Amanda or her boyfriend to kill Meredith. Unless this was some thrill killing, there is just no motive.

The only thing they have is a confession, mixed in with a lot of other versions of what happened.

What if she wasn't actually a part of it, what if she found out what was going on after it had already begun, and her actual involvement didn't start until that point?

This case is weird. I had wondered if Amanda and Sollecito could have walked in on Guida doing it, and then tried to cover up their knowledge of it, but if they had no involvement in it, why on earth would they both come up with such conflicting stories, and how did Sollecito's dna get on Meredith's discarded bra?

Amanda's dna would be all over that place because she lived there, but none of her dna was found on the discarded clothing that was near the body, nor on the body.

I can't wait to find out what exactly they got Sollecito's dna from. Was it a hair follicle, sperm, blood, spit, sweat? What?

Then to the knife that was found in Sollecito's apartment. Meredith's DNA was found on the blade and Knox's dna on the handle? Where on the blade? Are they suggesting the killer/s didn't wash the blood off of the knife and instead just took it to Sollecito's apartment and put it away? And what did they get Amanda's dna from? They said it was on the handle. No fingerprints on the handle, but her dna? Yet I can find nowhere on any links of any injuries to Amanda's hands, anything referring to cuts on the hands, so how did her DNA get on the knife handle? Did they get her dna from blood? Did she spit on the handle? Sweat on the handle? Cry on the handle? What?

I think if Amanda's boyfriend was involved it is more than likely Amanda was involved. The problem I am having is to what extent and when she became involved. Did they hold Meredith down while Guida raped her (going by what has been reported, again Guida's dna was found inside Meredith's body), then Amanda cut her throat? And would Amanda be strong enough to slash open another adult's throat?

That is something a man does, not a woman for one, and two, it doesn't make sense. With two strong men whose dna puts them in the room at some point, why was she the one to slash Meredith's throat?

[gmr32]

I have been talking to myself. I haven't visited for a few days so I didn't know new threads had been started.

Some points that are interesting:
- the prosecution is expected to call a witness who says that he saw Ms Knox at a shop near the cottage some three hours earlier,(than when she said she and Sollecito arrived at the murder scene) buying cleaning fluids.

-Manuela Comodi, the deputy prosecutor, said that the prosecution had not called either Ms Knox or Mr Sollecito as witnesses “because there is no point. Every time they were questioned during the pre-trial investigation they lied or tried to derail the inquiry.' (from The Times article). Now, you gotta admit this girl changed her tune more frequently than an I-Pod.

-The prosecution says it has proof that all three took part in the murder during a “sex game” in which Ms Kercher was forced to her knees as an unwilling participant, a view endorsed by Paolo Micheli, the pre-trial judge, who decided there was enough evidence against Ms Knox and Mr Sollecito for them to be put on trial. (again from The Times article). Now, I don't necessarily buy satanic rituals or anything like that. But Guede was there, he knew Knox and Sollecito (despite her loss of memory on that fact). He had sex with Meredith, whether consensual or not I don't know. Yes, he's already admitted his guilt. But he's yet to testify and I really want to hear what he has to say.

I find Austugus' description of a witness and a defendant being able to confron each other fascinating. I'd like to be a fly on the wall if Knox and Guede ever got together for a little chit-chat.

[n/t]

As someone who was born and raised in Italy, and visits frequently, here are some facts as to Italian justice.
They're very liberal, no death penalty and nobody ever does life.
In the '70s they had this terrorist group, (The Red Brigades), that committed many murders and kidnappings. Most of the terrorists were out of prison after 18 years or so. If Amanda gets life chances are she'll be out of prison after 15 years or so. For lesser crimes they prefer house arrest over incarceration. I actually know people that were sentenced to house arrest for fraud, burglary, and the likes.

The laws are different, in that they can interrogate a suspect and not allow a lawyer present until LE is done with them. I highly doubt there's any torture involved, or forced confessions. I have never heard anyone ever accuse Italian authorities of that.
They have a thing where they put a witness and a defendant in the same room and let them confront each-other. In other words the defendant can talk to the witness and dispute the testimony.
Trials go on forever with frequent breaks. They can decide to take two weeks off, or even more, in the middle of the trial. In summer trials they often adjourn for the entire month of August.
Judges get to ask lots of questions, and are more or less part of the prosecution. Defendants are not presumed innocent until proven guilty.
Contrary to the U.S. a verdict can be appealed, even a non guilty verdict.
Most trials they have a 3 judge panel that decides the outcome.


Bolded what I wanted to address above.

According to this link, what you posted above is incorrect.

In 1955 a law granted the defence counsel the right to be present at certain stages. An extension of the stages in which the right of defence must be assured followed over the next years due to the intervention of the Constitutional Court. Today, the defence counsel has the right to be present during the following stages: the interrogation of the suspect, enunciation of a judicial view or expert judgement, and search.

http://www.lectlaw.com/files/int03.htm

[n/t]

JVM discusses the case

ISSUES WITH JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL
Aired January 19, 2009 - 19:00:00 ET

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0901/19/ijvm.01.html

[n/t]

Amanda Knox flirts with Raffaele Sollecito at Meredith Kercher murder trial

Ms Knox returned to prison from the opening hearing saying that she was more convinced than ever that she would be freed, according to legal sources, “because I am sure this judge will believe what I say, not what others say — starting with Rudy”.
~~~

Giancarlo Massei, the presiding judge, will decide at the next hearing whether a “confession” made by Ms Knox before she was imprisoned admitting that she was at the scene of the crime and “covered her ears” so as not to hear Ms Kercher’s screams is admissable evidence.

The defence argues that it is not, since Italy’s highest court of appeal has ruled it that was made late at night with no lawyer present.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5540939.ece?token=null&offset=12&page=2

[n/t]

Is Sollecito being held or is he free on bail?

I wish someone with more credibility than Valez-Mitchell or Nancy Grace was covering this. I don't watch their shows. Their transcripts are never very accurate; nor is what they present as facts.

It's very interesting.

He's in prison. He was being transferred to another prison and was upset about it.

====

Mr Sollecito, who appeared “much more tense and uncertain”, told his former girlfriend that the trial would take “a long time”, but he too “hoped for the best”. He told Ms Knox he was being transferred from prison at Terni to the Perugia prison where she is being held, in order to be closer to the courtroom, but said he was "not happy about it.” He said that at Terni he had been allowed to mix with other prisoners, whereas at Perugia he would be held in isolation.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5540939.ece?token=null&offset=0&page=1

[legalease]

Gueda has already confessed and been sentenced for his role in the crime. He has nothing to gain or lose by telling the truth.


Of course there would be something to 'gain' if a criminal holds back information only to reveal it at a later date. Provided law enforcement is interested in what they have to say and actually believes it becomes a bargaining tool. Keeping something up their sleeve for later gives a criminal that extra leverage within the penal system that they would normally not have. If the criminal's additional info is worthwhile to law/legal authorities it many mean a chance at negotiating increased 'privileges' while in jail, or a transfer to a prison of their choice, or perhaps a better chance at parole.

P.S.
Guedes (or whatever his name is) has already proved to be a spectacular liar so his offers of telling the 'truth' are probably not going to be of interest to LE unless it's the defence for Knox and her boyfriend - and even then ....

[JD1974]

I thought Guede went with a short trial, was found guilty...the other 2 opted for the long trial? That is why his trial is already over...

[legalease]

SNIPPED:

Okay I am confused. Amanda did or did not kill Meredith? It sounds like Guida and Sollecito sexually assaulted Meredith and then killed her? She was found naked "chest down", dna from Guida and Sollecito were recovered from her, Guida's dna recovered from inside of her, Sollecito's dna was found on a bra.

This case is weird. I had wondered if Amanda and Sollecito could have walked in on Guida doing it, and then tried to cover up their knowledge of it, but if they had no involvement in it, why on earth would they both come up with such conflicting stories, and how did Sollecito's dna get on Meredith's discarded bra?

Amanda's dna would be all over that place because she lived there, but none of her dna was found on the discarded clothing that was near the body, nor on the body.

Hi mafitz701:

This case wreaks of incompetent police work OR just tabloid fodder fueling the fire. Nothing about the evidence makes me believe that Amanda Knox and her boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito are evil fiends – or that there’s even a satanic element!!!! The only reason I can tell that Knox and Sollecito are even implicated is due to the convicted rapist/murderer, Rudy Guede, initially trying pin the entire crime on them.

Let’s reviews the evidence (feel free to add to this list):

1. Convicted Guede initially tried to blame Knox and her boyfriend Sollecito for the crime.
2. Potential ‘transfer DNA’ from Sollecito found on victim’s bra, however, Knox’s ‘transfer DNA’ was NOT found on victim’s clothing;
3. Knox purchased cleaning supplies;
4. Haphazard eye witness reports of timelines and sightings;
5. Conflicting confessions taken from Knox and Sollecito without a lawyer present.

I’m on the fence!

Guede – the blamer – is now convicted of the crime – both for rape and murder yet he has implicated the young lovers as well. Or maybe he’s actually telling a little bit of truth, who knows yet?

Apparantly the victim’s and Sollecito’s DNA were on many items and in other locations of the apartment and not just on Meredith’s bra, which as you mentioned, would be normal since DNA transfer happens when people interact in close proximity (i.e., perhaps the bra was hanging in the bathroom next to a towel Sollecito had used or something simple like that). Or perhaps Sollecito was involved in the crime – don’t know yet.

The fact that Knox’s DNA was NOT found on the victim’s clothing may not be that unusual (I don’t know) – does her DNA really have to be on everything in the apt or the crime scene? Maybe Knox’s ‘transfer DNA’ is actually there but the lab couldn’t get a complete DNA profile so it isn’t something they can conclusively state in the lab report. The other reason could be that LE mishandled the evidence. Or perhaps Sollecito participated in the crime, and Knox didn’t, but her involvement is in trying to cover for him by providing an alibi.

Also, buying cleaning supplies isn’t necessarily a nefarious thing – maybe it was just bad timing for that type of shopping. Or perhaps it was in fact purchased to clean up a crime scene – and maybe Knox bought it to help out Sollecito.

The confessions of Knox and Sollecito are contradicting and every changing – perhaps an indication that coercion from LE may have been the reason. LE may have been making veiled/overt threats, manipulating suspects with untruths, actively/passively creating confusion for the suspects (i.e., telling each one that their lover was trying to involve them). Creating an environment where a suspect suffers sleep deprivation, hunger, fear or confusion are classic LE tactics in getting people to confess. Or maybe the suspects are just not telling the truth – perhaps Sollecito had an active role and Knox tried to cover for him later. Maybe Knox is completely involved in the whole crime. Or perhaps they are just not very smart and are guilty of buying drugs from Guede and got somewhat innocently involved in something way over their heads and tried to lie their way out.

Eye witness reports are notoriously inaccurate due to the human quality of our fallible memories (i.e., what we are so positive we remember is often not an accurate account of what actually did happen – lots of research has been done on this phenomenon and proves this point). I always take this kind of evidence with a grain of salt unless there are other confirming factors - such as video/cell phone evidence, receipts, or other reputable people with similar reports.

Basically, I need something with more meat to sink my teeth into the possibility that Amanda Knox and her boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito were actively involved in this rape and murder – and again, where does Satan fit it? :blink:

[cherylt]

Gueda has already confessed and been sentenced for his role in the crime. He has nothing to gain or lose by telling the truth.


Hey there - he actually confessed during his trial? I remember hearing he was convicted after he requested a ''fast track" trial, but I don't remember him saying he raped and killed her... Guess I'm off to google now...

[legalease]

"Oh what a tangled web we weave,
When first we practise to deceive!"
Sir Walter Scott

The truth is much easier and straightforward - I agree!

[cherylt]

Hi mafitz701:

This case wreaks of incompetent police work OR just tabloid fodder fueling the fire. Nothing about the evidence makes me believe that Amanda Knox and her boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito are evil fiends – or that there’s even a satanic element!!!! The only reason I can tell that Knox and Sollecito are even implicated is due to the convicted rapist/murderer, Rudy Guede, initially trying pin the entire crime on them.
***respectfully snipped***
Basically, I need something with more meat to sink my teeth into the possibility that Amanda Knox and her boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito were actively involved in this rape and murder – and again, where does Satan fit it? :blink:

He legalease, good post w/ thought provoking issues. Hopefully we'll get more answers as the trial progresses.

As to how to satan issue fits in - IT DOESN'T. It was one of the cockamanie 1st stories pros told the Judge but he didn't buy it. The
2nd one was a sex orgy went bad. Either way, they are both "fantastic accounts", with the latter being the more "rational" one...

Satan, pleeeease! :rolleyes:

BTW - what deal did Guede get since I heard he confessed? Last I heard, he was sentenced to 30 years. What incentive is there to take the stand? Just curious...

[mafitz701]

Hi mafitz701:

This case wreaks of incompetent police work OR just tabloid fodder fueling the fire. Nothing about the evidence makes me believe that Amanda Knox and her boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito are evil fiends – or that there’s even a satanic element!!!! The only reason I can tell that Knox and Sollecito are even implicated is due to the convicted rapist/murderer, Rudy Guede, initially trying pin the entire crime on them.

Let’s reviews the evidence (feel free to add to this list):

1. Convicted Guede initially tried to blame Knox and her boyfriend Sollecito for the crime.
2. Potential ‘transfer DNA’ from Sollecito found on victim’s bra, however, Knox’s ‘transfer DNA’ was NOT found on victim’s clothing;
3. Knox purchased cleaning supplies;
4. Haphazard eye witness reports of timelines and sightings;
5. Conflicting confessions taken from Knox and Sollecito without a lawyer present.

I’m on the fence!

Guede – the blamer – is now convicted of the crime – both for rape and murder yet he has implicated the young lovers as well. Or maybe he’s actually telling a little bit of truth, who knows yet?

Apparantly the victim’s and Sollecito’s DNA were on many items and in other locations of the apartment and not just on Meredith’s bra, which as you mentioned, would be normal since DNA transfer happens when people interact in close proximity (i.e., perhaps the bra was hanging in the bathroom next to a towel Sollecito had used or something simple like that). Or perhaps Sollecito was involved in the crime – don’t know yet.

The fact that Knox’s DNA was NOT found on the victim’s clothing may not be that unusual (I don’t know) – does her DNA really have to be on everything in the apt or the crime scene? Maybe Knox’s ‘transfer DNA’ is actually there but the lab couldn’t get a complete DNA profile so it isn’t something they can conclusively state in the lab report. The other reason could be that LE mishandled the evidence. Or perhaps Sollecito participated in the crime, and Knox didn’t, but her involvement is in trying to cover for him by providing an alibi.

Also, buying cleaning supplies isn’t necessarily a nefarious thing – maybe it was just bad timing for that type of shopping. Or perhaps it was in fact purchased to clean up a crime scene – and maybe Knox bought it to help out Sollecito.

The confessions of Knox and Sollecito are contradicting and every changing – perhaps an indication that coercion from LE may have been the reason. LE may have been making veiled/overt threats, manipulating suspects with untruths, actively/passively creating confusion for the suspects (i.e., telling each one that their lover was trying to involve them). Creating an environment where a suspect suffers sleep deprivation, hunger, fear or confusion are classic LE tactics in getting people to confess. Or maybe the suspects are just not telling the truth – perhaps Sollecito had an active role and Knox tried to cover for him later. Maybe Knox is completely involved in the whole crime. Or perhaps they are just not very smart and are guilty of buying drugs from Guede and got somewhat innocently involved in something way over their heads and tried to lie their way out.

Eye witness reports are notoriously inaccurate due to the human quality of our fallible memories (i.e., what we are so positive we remember is often not an accurate account of what actually did happen – lots of research has been done on this phenomenon and proves this point). I always take this kind of evidence with a grain of salt unless there are other confirming factors - such as video/cell phone evidence, receipts, or other reputable people with similar reports.

Basically, I need something with more meat to sink my teeth into the possibility that Amanda Knox and her boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito were actively involved in this rape and murder – and again, where does Satan fit it? :blink:


YES YES YES! I can't say they were not involved, but the evidence is not making much sense to me. Why would they accept, which is my own impression from the Italian forensic experts, that Guida told the truth and did not rape Meredith, given his DNA was found inside her body, and it was after this encounter that she is murdered. I can find nothing on the net to show that Meredith had a prior relationship with Guida. Yet forensic experts are accepting that he did not rape her even though his DNA is found inside her DEAD body. This bothers me a great deal.

The other explanations they are giving for DNA seem conjured. The way they are explaining their case, and the location of DNA versus where DNA is not found, is just making it very hard to figure out what happened.

This is so out of the ordinary for a murder case in which there is dna evidence. Typically, you can get a very good picture of the crime and the scene if you go solely by the forensic evidence. This case is missing that element.

I also can not get past Knox's DNA on the knife handle, and Meredith's DNA on the blade. Why would Knox's dna be on the knife handle?

It just leaves me with the impression that they dummied up the scene and the evidence a great deal, and does indeed make them look like they do not know the first thing about collecting evidence and examining that evidence. It sounds like they are making stuff up.

The evidence found on Meredith and inside of Meredith puts Guida there, no question about it. The problem is that with the way the Italians are presenting their case thus far, even if Amanda and Sollecito are complicit in this murder, questions to their guilt or innocense will stand.

I am hoping that once the trial commences the forensic experts will come off as far more competent than the way they sounded via the prosecutor's interpretation.

The fact is that young women don't cut throats when killing with a knife with the exception of when the victim is a child. They stab their victims, not cut throats. And now I don't remember where I read about the methods of killing and its going to drive me nuts until I find it. Its just another piece that does not add up.

Confessions get a lot of people convicted because the average person finds it very hard to believe that anyone would confess to a crime that they did not commit. But the fact is also that that happens a lot, too much for it to be ignored. People will also lie out of instinct when they feel cornered and/or pressured to do so. Because of this the evidence needs to explain the case.

[legalease]

As for the evidence in the case, we have only heard that which has been made public in order to provide a basis for holding Knox and Sollecito and putting them on trial. We have not yet heard the prosecution's case (or the defense's) because the trial is just beginning. I'll wait to hear all of it.

Yes - I for one will also wait to hear all of the evidence once the case goes forward. That was the overall point I made in my prior post - the same point the majority of posters are making through stating they are 'confused', they feel the evidence doesn't make sense, etc.

So - until we get something to sink our teeth into, then it's just speculation on what we've currently been fed by the media. At best - that info is disjointed, and at worst it's ridiculous. If you factor in the 'satanic ritual' comments - well, then it becomes downright bizarre!

In the meantime... I guess we'll just whack what info we have around...

[legalease]

My prior post is wrong regarding Guede's conviction - here's the correction:

Rudy Guede was convicted of the MURDER of Meredith Kercher and not her rape.

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/10/28/italy.student.kercher.decision/index.html

Excerpts from the above linked article:

"A judge Tuesday convicted Rudy Guede, a native of the Ivory Coast, in last year's murder of a British woman in Italy and sentenced him to 30 years in prison."

"At his lawyers' request, Guede, hoping for a lesser sentence, received a separate fast-track trial from Knox and Sollecito."

"Guede has admitted being in the villa when Kercher was killed, but has said an unknown assailant killed her while he was out of the room."

:rolleyes:

[catdoc]

I have done extensive research on this case from it's inception and the only place "Satanic Ritual" comes into play is on this board. Perhaps because I don't research trials from tabloids??? I realize the tabloid or "rag" business is even bigger in Europe than it is here but hardly a reliable source of info. As for as the argument that "young women simply don't cut throats" I hardly know what to say....except read up on this girl. Read her diary entries both before and after the murder. Read about her and Sollecito's actions before and after the crime. Count their various stories. These were not children or intellectually challenged adults. They were very high functioning, talented, sophistjicated, worldly and Knox in particular had a dark,twisted sexual obsession, a deep-seated rage against other women and a hatred for Michelle. It is not at all a stretch to see Knox as a devious femme fatale. It will take a bombshell from the defence to convince me she is not the ring leader. Sollecito is more of an easily manipulated geek with a dark fantasy life that probably would not have progressed to reality if not for Knox's ability and desire to use sex to get him to do what she wished. Amanda is one of the darkest, most manipulative charactors I have seen. She also had the intellect and sophistication to carry out her fantasies. She could not be coerced into a false confession. She did, however, expect to be able to lie her way out. Or at the least, pin it on someone else. She has always gotten her way in the past. Besides, she could always get rich daddy to bail her out. If all else failed, the US of A would bring the calvary to her rescue. She had total faith she could get away with it. She certainly did not expect to be denied bail. Daddy would bail her out, Mommy would come get her and no way would they let her go back.

We have a lot of interesting testimony ahead. I fear it will be painfully slow however. In the meantime, check out the backstory in the Times of London, some of the Italian papers and read the book. Then when evidence is presented we can all decide what "facts" to believe. I think it's a mistake to assume that Italian LE and CSI are bumbling idiots. Especially when US dollars can buy the defence and the publicity to put that theory forward from the start. Throwing a little "Satanic Ritual" into the glad rags will muddy the story quite well. This is a story of jealosy, sadism and murder not Satanism.There is no innocent naive American co-ed involved.

[joolz]

I have done extensive research on this case from it's inception and the only place "Satanic Ritual" comes into play is on this board. Perhaps because I don't research trials from tabloids??? I realize the tabloid or "rag" business is even bigger in Europe than it is here but hardly a reliable source of info. As for as the argument that "young women simply don't cut throats" I hardly know what to say....except read up on this girl. Read her diary entries both before and after the murder. Read about her and Sollecito's actions before and after the crime. Count their various stories. These were not children or intellectually challenged adults. They were very high functioning, talented, sophistjicated, worldly and Knox in particular had a dark,twisted sexual obsession, a deep-seated rage against other women and a hatred for Michelle. It is not at all a stretch to see Knox as a devious femme fatale. It will take a bombshell from the defence to convince me she is not the ring leader. Sollecito is more of an easily manipulated geek with a dark fantasy life that probably would not have progressed to reality if not for Knox's ability and desire to use sex to get him to do what she wished. Amanda is one of the darkest, most manipulative charactors I have seen. She also had the intellect and sophistication to carry out her fantasies. She could not be coerced into a false confession. She did, however, expect to be able to lie her way out. Or at the least, pin it on someone else. She has always gotten her way in the past. Besides, she could always get rich daddy to bail her out. If all else failed, the US of A would bring the calvary to her rescue. She had total faith she could get away with it. She certainly did not expect to be denied bail. Daddy would bail her out, Mommy would come get her and no way would they let her go back.

We have a lot of interesting testimony ahead. I fear it will be painfully slow however. In the meantime, check out the backstory in the Times of London, some of the Italian papers and read the book. Then when evidence is presented we can all decide what "facts" to believe. I think it's a mistake to assume that Italian LE and CSI are bumbling idiots. Especially when US dollars can buy the defence and the publicity to put that theory forward from the start. Throwing a little "Satanic Ritual" into the glad rags will muddy the story quite well. This is a story of jealosy, sadism and murder not Satanism.There is no innocent naive American co-ed involved.

I didn't know there was a book out already - I'd love to read it because everything that you claim about Knox jives with what I read and thought at the very beginning of the case. Can you please give the title and author? TIA!

[legalease]

I have done extensive research on this case from it's inception and the only place "Satanic Ritual" comes into play is on this board. .

FYI

Huh? Do you watch TV - do you go online?


http://www.newsweek.com/id/180004

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,440482,00.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/10/20/world/main4531537.shtml?source=mostpop_story

http://www.mahalo.com/Amanda_Knox

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/16/amanda-knox-murder-trial_n_158425.html


SATANIC references in regard to this trial have been used by several well known and highly visible (I was going to say 'reputable') TV news stations broadcasted throughout the USA and Canada and also posted on their websites recently. In the last 48 hours there's been a notable reduction in those types of reports and articles (thankfully).... guess they're embarrassed (or should be)... :confused:

[n/t]

I didn't know there was a book out already - I'd love to read it because everything that you claim about Knox jives with what I read and thought at the very beginning of the case. Can you please give the title and author? TIA!

I thought the book was being taken off shelves in Italy because of a lawsuit.

The book is called Amanda and the Others (English translation) but I believe it's only published in Italian. Not sure.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/01/14/foxy-knoxy-trial-bid-over-sex-book-115875-21039668/

[n/t]

Amanda Knox has filed a lawsuit to halt sales of “Amanda gli altri”, a book that tells secrets of private lives of suspects and witnesses in the Meredith Kercher murder case. The book’s title in English is “Amanda and The Others: Lives Lost around the Perugia Murder.”

Knox claimed the book influenced people and interfered in her chance of getting a fair trail. Knox has asked for 500,000 euros, or USD $664000, in compensation. Knox claimed the newspaper, “Corriere della Sera”, published some articles that damaged her reputation. Defence lawyers for Knox claimed she suffered a smear campaign.


http://celebgalz.com/amanda-and-the-others-lives-lost-around-the-perugia-murder/

[joolz]

I thought the book was being taken off shelves in Italy because of a lawsuit.

The book is called Amanda and the Others (English translation) but I believe it's only published in Italian. Not sure.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/01/14/foxy-knoxy-trial-bid-over-sex-book-115875-21039668/

Thank you - unfortunately, even if it's available, I don't speak or read Italian. :ohmy:

[n/t]

Only one available on Amazon.com. $98.90:w00t:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=amanda+and+the+others

[joolz]

Only one available on Amazon.com. $98.90:w00t:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=amanda+and+the+others


Different book with the same title, but thanks. Even if it was the right book, not exactly in my price range!:laugh:

[legalease]

I have done extensive research on this case from it's inception and the only place "Satanic Ritual" comes into play is on this board. Perhaps because I don't research trials from tabloids??? I realize the tabloid or "rag" business is even bigger in Europe than it is here but hardly a reliable source of info. As for as the argument that "young women simply don't cut throats" I hardly know what to say....except read up on this girl. Read her diary entries both before and after the murder. Read about her and Sollecito's actions before and after the crime. Count their various stories. These were not children or intellectually challenged adults. They were very high functioning, talented, sophistjicated, worldly and Knox in particular had a dark,twisted sexual obsession, a deep-seated rage against other women and a hatred for Michelle. It is not at all a stretch to see Knox as a devious femme fatale. It will take a bombshell from the defence to convince me she is not the ring leader. Sollecito is more of an easily manipulated geek with a dark fantasy life that probably would not have progressed to reality if not for Knox's ability and desire to use sex to get him to do what she wished. Amanda is one of the darkest, most manipulative charactors I have seen. She also had the intellect and sophistication to carry out her fantasies. She could not be coerced into a false confession. She did, however, expect to be able to lie her way out. Or at the least, pin it on someone else. She has always gotten her way in the past. Besides, she could always get rich daddy to bail her out. If all else failed, the US of A would bring the calvary to her rescue. She had total faith she could get away with it. She certainly did not expect to be denied bail. Daddy would bail her out, Mommy would come get her and no way would they let her go back.

We have a lot of interesting testimony ahead. I fear it will be painfully slow however. In the meantime, check out the backstory in the Times of London, some of the Italian papers and read the book. Then when evidence is presented we can all decide what "facts" to believe. I think it's a mistake to assume that Italian LE and CSI are bumbling idiots. Especially when US dollars can buy the defence and the publicity to put that theory forward from the start. Throwing a little "Satanic Ritual" into the glad rags will muddy the story quite well. This is a story of jealosy, sadism and murder not Satanism.There is no innocent naive American co-ed involved.

More reading for you:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5509951.ece

Regarding the ‘BOOK’ (which you quote in your post) here's an article that also addresses the smear campaign that involves Amanda Knox...

As reported in the ‘London’ Times newspaper (which you quote in your post) and on their Times Online website - here are a few quotes:

"This crosses the limits of legitimate exercise of the rights of the press''.
"Richard Owen at the Times of London also did a report. "Her lawyers said that the book, extracts from which were published in the newspaper, contained details about Ms Knox's sex life that was ''not in any way useful or considered relevant to the investigation"."

P.S.
I have stated several times (in regard to this case) that I am 'on the fence' and do not take a 'side'. I will stand by that until some concrete and believable evidence is produced. I also won't continue to reply to posts that I feel are posed to create havoc on the boards or are just boring biased nonsense (my judgement call) as they are a waste of time (in my opinion).

just sayin' ...

[mafitz701]

MY POINT has been (yes I know I am awful at saying what I am trying to say) and it gets conflustered. Guida's DNA is found inside Meredith's body. But it was supposed to be Sollecito and Amanda that murdered her.

As legalease said, I am just saying the stuff that is reported thus far makes so little sense and is discombobulated enough that I can't make heads or tails of it.

Well CatDoc apparently the Italian system agrees with you that Amanda and Sollecito are already guilty and apparently the trial is just to dispense with the whole formality of justice in a democracy, I mean Amanda's defense team has had to file a suit to stop a book coming out about them before the trial has even started?

It seems cut and dry to me going by what HAS been reported, that Guida raped Meredith, and I am still thinking that Guida is the one that killed her because it makes sense. But as I said earlier in my other long long post, it is because of the sometimes senseless and often over the top information that is coming out that confuses me as to the role Sollecito and Amanda played in the murder. It sounds like the evidence is being dummied.

I am just going to have to wait till the trial starts, and I can't wait, because I can not accept that the forensics experts are basically as slow witted as they are coming out to be via the press.

I have not read a diary by Amanda or seen anything about it. But I have found a ton of people spreading rumors as fact on this case, so honestly, I don't know what to believe anymore.

[n/t]

Excerpts from the diary....there are tons of links if you google search Amanda Knox diaries.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/2187867/Meredith-Kercher-murder-suspect-Amanda-Knox-claims-to-be-sex-symbol.html

[catdoc]

I thought the book was being taken off shelves in Italy because of a lawsuit.

The book is called Amanda and the Others (English translation) but I believe it's only published in Italian. Not sure.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/01/14/foxy-knoxy-trial-bid-over-sex-book-115875-21039668/

I got my copy from a friend in London about 2 weeks ago. I know the lawsuit had been filed but the books were still on the shelves then. It was a bestseller (according to my friend,,have not seen the numbers in print). Mine is an English translation. It could have been removed since then. One source I read said the lawsuit was being defended by the argument that "everyone had already read it so why pull it now". That argument was based on sales figures. It's mostly excerpts from Amanda's own writings (she's an obsessive journal keeper. Even after being jailed and knowing it would be confiscated she could not resist writing down incriminating info.) Also writings of her friends from before and after the crime. I even suspect she has a case of hypergraphia, (an obsessive need to write things down).

[n/t]

I'm on the fence too. I just don't understand their conflicting stories though. If innocent of any wrong doing, why lie?

She says she was there, then changes her story to say she was with her boyfriend. Boyfriend says he was at home but can't remember if Amanda was there all the time or some of the time.
And why would she implicate the bar owner who was totally innocent? So many things don't make any sense.

[legalease]

MY POINT has been (yes I know I am awful at saying what I am trying to say) and it gets conflustered. Guida's DNA is found inside Meredith's body. But it was supposed to be Sollecito and Amanda that murdered her.

As legalease said, I am just saying the stuff that is reported thus far makes so little sense and is discombobulated enough that I can't make heads or tails of it.

Well CatDoc apparently the Italian system agrees with you that Amanda and Sollecito are already guilty and apparently the trial is just to dispense with the whole formality of justice in a democracy, I mean Amanda's defense team has had to file a suit to stop a book coming out about them before the trial has even started?

It seems cut and dry to me going by what HAS been reported, that Guida raped Meredith, and I am still thinking that Guida is the one that killed her because it makes sense. But as I said earlier in my other long long post, it is because of the sometimes senseless and often over the top information that is coming out that confuses me as to the role Sollecito and Amanda played in the murder. It sounds like the evidence is being dummied.

I am just going to have to wait till the trial starts, and I can't wait, because I can not accept that the forensics experts are basically as slow witted as they are coming out to be via the press.

I have not read a diary by Amanda or seen anything about it. But I have found a ton of people spreading rumors as fact on this case, so honestly, I don't know what to believe anymore.

I haven't read her diary either - however, I would not have wanted anyone to have read my diary (the one I wrote at her age) ... full of wistful, lustful, fantasy... mine was ... can't imagine how the public would have judged me!

There's just not enough hard, believable evidence out yet to really believe that Guede (the former petty criminal) didn't just do the whole crime himself (including rape in addition to the murder he was convicted of). BUT... my mind is open - once some evidence that makes sense is presented then I'll mull the whole thing over - and perhaps lean one way (guilt or innocence for Knox and Sollecito). In the meantime I'm not buying into the media exploitation.

[catdoc]

I only paid 12.95 +4.95 S&H. I don't consider the book as factual as far as murder evidence, After all, it is Amanda's writings mostly, she could lie in her own journals. But it gives a lot of insight into her mindset. To me she comes off as amoral, manipulative, vindictive, vain and obsessed with violent sex as well as sex as a tool to get whatever she wants. Different people will probably see it differently.

[n/t]

I got my copy from a friend in London about 2 weeks ago. I know the lawsuit had been filed but the books were still on the shelves then. It was a bestseller (according to my friend,,have not seen the numbers in print). Mine is an English translation. It could have been removed since then. One source I read said the lawsuit was being defended by the argument that "everyone had already read it so why pull it now". That argument was based on sales figures. It's mostly excerpts from Amanda's own writings (she's an obsessive journal keeper. Even after being jailed and knowing it would be confiscated she could not resist writing down incriminating info.) Also writings of her friends from before and after the crime. I even suspect she has a case of hypergraphia, (an obsessive need to write things down).

I don't have a copy of the book but could some of it have been fabricated to sell more copies? From what I've read online regarding the jailhouse diary, she proclaims her innocence and even talks about Meredith in a positive way.

Yeah she liked men and bragged about it but so what? That doesn't make her guilty.

To me, it's all the other inconsistencies and physical evidence that will make the case. I don't care if she slept with 7 or 50 guys. That's irrelevant, imo.

[n/t]

This was the original case timeline. Their stories changed so many times.

CASE TIMELINE

Nov. 1

8:30 p.m. Amanda Knox is at boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito's house when she receives a text message from Patrick Diya Lumumba concerning an appointment later in the evening.

9 p.m. Knox and Sollecito meet Lumumba at a plaza and go together to Amanda's apartment.

Around 10 p.m. Meredith Kercher dies after being stabbed in the neck.

Nov. 2 The investigation begins

10 a.m. Knox and Sollecito wake up in his apartment. Knox goes home to shower and change clothes.

12:35 p.m. Police arrive at the apartment after a cell phone is found in a neighbor's yard. Officers find Knox and Sollecito at the apartment, who claim they phoned the police because a window had been broken.

12:51 p.m. Though police were already at the apartment with them, Sollecito phones the police to report a break-in.

1 p.m. Examining the apartment for evidence of a burglary, police find that the door to Kercher's room is locked. Officers break down the door and discover Kercher's body covered with a blanket.

Sometime Friday Knox tells investigators she'd last seen Kercher the previous afternoon and spent the night at Sollecito's house. Sollecito confirms her version of events.

Monday Stories start changing


Sollecito speaks to investigators again, this time claiming he and Knox went to the city center together the night Kercher was killed but later separated. Sollecito says Knox told him to lie to police earlier.

Tuesday


Speaking to police, Knox recants her earlier statements. She admits to being in the apartment during the killing, claiming that she heard Kercher screaming while in the bedroom with Lumumba. Knox tells investigators she crouched in the kitchen covering her ears.


Police seize a 3.5-inch folding knife -- a possible match to the murder weapon -- and a pair of Nike gym shoes from Sollecito's home. The shoes match a print found near Kercher's body.

Thursday


Prosecutors interrogate Knox, Sollecito and Lumumba with their lawyers present in order to make the case to continue to hold them under arrest.

Friday


Judge Claudia Matteini rules that all three suspects will remain in custody for up to a year while the investigation continues.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/338995_knox10.html

[legalease]

Thanks for that timeline n/t

Verrrrry interrresting yet horribly confussssing!!!!

Still gonna wait for the concrete evidence - the following are just rhetorical questions and don't require answers or intellectual speculation. LOL

Knox not being there - then changing her story to covering ears (while, in fact, being there) - would the latter be from the false confession?

Additionally, the vague evidence (Sollecito's footprint by the body) - was it there before, during or after the murder? Could Guede have planted it?

Still wonder if ....

Inspector Clouseau and the Keystone Cops did the investigating and if the Tabloids and early Book Authors are the Court of Justice ....

In all honesty - it's not much better over here in NA with the Casey Anthony case - however, at least here, the media is feeding us hours and reams of investigative videos and documents .... does that make it better?

:huh:

[catdoc]

I don't have a copy of the book but could some of it have been fabricated to sell more copies? From what I've read online regarding the jailhouse diary, she proclaims her innocence and even talks about Meredith in a positive way.

Yeah she liked men and bragged about it but so what? That doesn't make her guilty.

To me, it's all the other inconsistencies and physical evidence that will make the case. I don't care if she slept with 7 or 50 guys. That's irrelevant, imo.

I agree totally it could have a lot of fabrication. I have compared excerpts which are published in other sources and they are accurate. I have no way of knowing about the rest. The author is certainly putting her reputation on the line since it will come out in trial (unless the judge throws out all diary evidence). I also agree that being sexually active or even promiscuous does not make her guilty of murder. She does talk of Meredith in a positive way at times and does proclaim her innocence. She also says vile things about Meredith and makes references to wanting to know what it feels like to kill someone you're having sex with.

Mostly it gives you a window into her mindset. You can see how smart and worldly she is and how much of her time is spent writing about sex, drugs and violence.

I will not make up my mind as to her guilt (beyond a reasonable doubt) until we hear the evidence in court (vs. in media). Especially the forensics. But to me she really looks bad. I might change my mind. I think it's going to be interesting.

[legalease]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7695294.stm


The above link is to an article with a very puzzling statement made by Knox’s lawyer regarding Knox’s reaction to Guede’s murder conviction - it gives no explanation nor can I find further discussion on this. Was this reaction of Knox's actually due to the fact that Guede wasn’t also charged with rape?

Here's the perplexing quote:

“Miss Knox reportedly broke down on hearing the decision to convict Guede. Her lawyer Luciano Ghirga said she was "was quite disappointed" by the ruling.”

I find this case frustrating because there is nothing reported that is clear, consistent, or that gives anything other than the same misleading, confusing or biased info - WHY IS THAT????

The media really sucks. Could I get banned for saying that? Guess we'll soon see....

:confused:

On that note... I'm done... got to attend to the details of my life... g'night!

[legalease]

He legalease, good post w/ thought provoking issues. Hopefully we'll get more answers as the trial progresses.

As to how to satan issue fits in - IT DOESN'T. It was one of the cockamanie 1st stories pros told the Judge but he didn't buy it. The
2nd one was a sex orgy went bad. Either way, they are both "fantastic accounts", with the latter being the more "rational" one...

Satan, pleeeease! :rolleyes:

BTW - what deal did Guede get since I heard he confessed? Last I heard, he was sentenced to 30 years. What incentive is there to take the stand? Just curious...

Don't quote me on this as I really don't have a clue. I don't think Guede got a deal since he lied his way through his entire trial and ended up with a 30 year sentence.

Re: Guede taking the stand in the Knox and/or Sollecito trials: Again, I don't know anything about Italian legalities, however, my belief is that Guede does not have a choice but to take the stand as he's listed as a 'witness' in the Amanda Knox case. Makes me wonder what happens if Guede contradicts himself during her trial in regard to prior statements made in his own trial. Maybe the Italian court doesn't care and just discounts his testamony in the current trial and sends him back to his cell quickfast? Dunno...



Anyone out there familiar with the Italian legal system???? We need your input!!!!!!

P.S.
I had no idea the font would end up this LARGE!!!! I'm going with it anyway...

[mafitz701]

Thanks for that timeline n/t

Verrrrry interrresting yet horribly confussssing!!!!

Still gonna wait for the concrete evidence - the following are just rhetorical questions and don't require answers or intellectual speculation. LOL

Knox not being there - then changing her story to covering ears (while, in fact, being there) - would the latter be from the false confession?

Additionally, the vague evidence (Sollecito's footprint by the body) - was it there before, during or after the murder? Could Guede have planted it?

Still wonder if ....

Inspector Clouseau and the Keystone Cops did the investigating and if the Tabloids and early Book Authors are the Court of Justice ....

In all honesty - it's not much better over here in NA with the Casey Anthony case - however, at least here, the media is feeding us hours and reams of investigative videos and documents .... does that make it better?

:huh:

Well I did google for diary entries and all I found were reports of what she was supposed to have said but when they quote what she was saying I just don't see it. I will give those examples in a sec.

First though Legalease, believe it or not, there are crime photos for all the world to see. I found them here:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-508528/Chilling-pictures-Meredith-murder-scene-reveal-apartment-bloodbath-horror.html

Scroll down to the bedroom photo. One bra strap is torn or cut from the bra on one side, so it is hanging. The other bra strap is blood soaked. However, from what I read from the leaked judge's reports translated by the media, this is not the bra they found Sollecito's DNA on. They found his DNA on a bra clasp of a bra that belonged to Meredith but still not what the DNA was in the form of.

Right by the jeans is where they found the shoe print and then if you scroll down further there is a close up of the print. You can make out some tread pattern but the print is not well defined to make out a shoe size. They are saying this is similar to a pair of Nike's that Sollecito owned.

The bathroom they are saying "Tests have shown that her DNA was found in a splash of blood on a tap, and on the plug in the sink, suggesting she may have washed her hands after the crime."

The bathroom is covered in blood. With a large amount of splatter at the sink. The bedroom where she was found has some spatter, but not in comparison to the bathroom sink area. Then in the bedroom you naturally have the pooling from her body being placed there.

Then look at the bedroom photo, little to no struggle is evident because there is a lack of blood smearing, and the nightstand, wardrobe area are undisturbed with a large amount of pooling at the wardrobe.

The bra and the jeans have blood on them. It looks like she was in the bathroom initially when the attack took place and going by the blood around the toilet, against the wall behind the sink and all over the sink that is where the struggle occurred. The lt pink is not the blood it looks like printing powder or luminol. But she was found undressed from the neck down (which really confuses me the wording of that). So she was undressed in the bedroom after the initial attack.

Then back to the bedroom. The blood pooled heavily along the section in front of the nightstand to the one side of the wardrobe. So either this is where her throat was slashed fatally or where she was dropped to bleed out, which I don't think is possible without a blood trail from the bathroom to her bedroom which would not leave the bedroom floor so clean save for two partial shoe prints.

The other strange thing is the chair in the bedroom photo. It does not even appear to have any splatter on the legs of it, and going by the lack of drag marks in the blood pool on the floor beneath it, it once again suggests that she was laid down but not struggling when she was in the bedroom.

This looks, really looks in every way like a sexually motivated crime scene. The torn or cut bra strap, the removal of the clothes, what looks like she was first attacked in the bathroom and then taken into the bedroom where she was subdued enough that there was little to no struggle evident in the bedroom. Her jeans and bra both have enough blood on them to suggest she was wearing them when she was attacked and that they were removed during the attack.

I had read that the crime scene was cleaned up, I fail to see clean up in these photos.

It looks even more to me like Guida raped and murdered Meredith. I am sorry guys. But it looks like a sexually motivated homicide.

The other interesting thing is the label on the jeans looks to have been freshly torn. Not cut going by the jagged edges, but torn. The Levis she was wearing have a leatherlike label. How did they get torn that way. The tear is from side to side not up and down. And it is torn right between the last S in Strauss and the Co. so they were torn not at the seam of the label. That is odd. I wonder if they figured out how the label was torn.

Oh hell it looks like there are 3 partial shoe prints. B looks like a partial shoe print too. I can't make out what part of the shoe it is, but the swirl patterns look like a sneaker.

The towel on the bed has a simple blood stain on it. Like it was pressed against something that had blood, not used to wipe. Possibly to press against an injury? Was it Meredith's blood or that of her killer/s.

The purse was possibly on the nightstand before the attack and was moved going by the size of the empty space on the nightstand and the glass drinking glass is upright and undisturbed. Lack of strugle.

I will post next on what I found of this diary.

[mafitz701]

I am going to break these down because honestly some sound like they are taken out of context and some villify while others just try to explain away.

Who KNOWS!

Okay from the SeattlePI Blog:
On Nov. 19, she does mentions that she got 23 "fan letters" that "the jail had been saving up for me." That brings her total to 35. A postcard notifying her that a package is being held at the post office makes it 36.

Yes, they're all from guys, 20-35 on average, but one 55 (he "thankfully offers fatherly advice.")

"All of them reassure me that they believe me and wish me courage, and patience. Some ask me to have faith in God. Others bash the Italian justice system."

"I think the same thing about this as I did before. If I were ugly would they be writing me wishing me encouragement? I don't think so. Oh, well, this is what my life is and I'll write to them and thank them for thinking of me." She adds "Jeez, I'm not even that good-looking! People are acting like I'm the prettiest thing since Helen of Troy!"

"I don't care about this stuff," she says. "I just want to go home."
Later she tells her friends about the fan mail. "Needless to say, I would much rather receive letters from you all, so here's my address."

On Nov. 25 she says, "Why would I be in here for 20 years if I am, in reality, completely innocent? The only thing I screwed up on was when I said I saw Patrick, but I never said his name with any sort of malicious intent behind it. I only said it to say something. I was trying so hard to know something, and I know what I said was wrong, which is why I'm telling the truth, that I've remembered, now."

On Nov. 29, shortly before the diary was seized, she returns to this topic.

"I'm so sorry for all this confusion and in particular for what I did to Patrick. I'm happy that he has been set free."

At the Nov. 30 court hearing Knox burst into tears when asked why she had accused Patrick, her former employer at Le Chic.

Says the Times of London: "Ms. Knox told the judge that she was sorry for the trouble that she had caused Diya Patrick Lumumba, a Congolese bar owner for whom she worked part time, by falsely claiming that he had had sex with Ms Kercher before murdering her. 'I am sorry for Patrick and for the whole situation,'" she said.

[catdoc]

Legalese,I don't know anything about the Italian legal system but I might could find out things on an Italian site since I read Italian. What is your specific question?

[legalease]

SNIP:
First though Legalease, believe it or not, there are crime photos for all the world to see. I found them here:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-508528/Chilling-pictures-Meredith-murder-scene-reveal-apartment-bloodbath-horror.html

Scroll down to the bedroom photo.

Whoa! That’s quite the link!

I did say I was signing off the boards and here I am still…

OK - I had a quick look and read your very detailed and excellent post .

In addition to your comments I have my two cents to add:

“DNA belonging to Amanda Knox, Meredith's American flatmate and one of the prime suspects in her murder, has allegedly been found in the bathroom.”
“Tests have shown that her (My comment: Amanda Knox I presume?) DNA was found in a splash of blood on a tap, and on the plug in the sink, suggesting she may have washed her hands after the crime.”

Certainly, DNA from Knox and Sollecito would have been found in the bathroom if they used it! Therefore the reported mix of Knox’s and Meredith’s DNA on the blood splattered tap and plug makes me ask - can they tell if Knox’s DNA was on the tap before or after the blood was splattered?

"According to Italian police, DNA belonging to Knox's lover Raffaele Sollecito has allegedly been discovered on a bra clasp belonging to Meredith."

But this bra was NOT the one identified at the crime scene so what point are they trying to make? This random bra could just have transfer DNA due to it being around the apartment. This is another one of those red herring 'findings' that needs more explanation in regard to its relevance.

"However, DNA belonging to Rudy Guede, who is being held in Capanne prison near Perugia along with Knox and Sollecito, was also allegedly found on the bloody bra that is seen at the foot of one of the new photos."

So…. this bloody bra was actually found at the crime scene and contains DNA belonging to the convicted murderer Rudy Guede - relevant!

I mean it - I'm signing off now - but thanks for keeping me up !

[mafitz701]

Now from the DailyMail UK:
These were supposed to have been from Amanda's diary prior to the murder of Meredith:

"It tells of Knox 'feeling so hungry I could murder a pizza' and describes how she wanted to 'write a song' about Miss Kercher's death. She details nights of 'alcohol, drugs and sex'. "

In her diary Knox writes: 'So I am at the police station after a long day in which I describe how I was the first person to arrive home and find my flatmate dead.

'The strange thing is after all that has happened I want to write a song about all this. It would be the first song I have written and would speak about how someone died in a horrible way and for no reason.

'How morbid is all that ? I'm dying of hunger. I really want to say that I could murder a pizza but that doesn't seem right. Laura and Filomena (Knox and Meredith's flatmates) are really upset.

'I'm angry. At the beginning I was shocked, then sad, then confused now I'm really angry. I don't know. I never saw her body and I never saw her blood so it's as if it hasn't happened.

'But it did happen, right in the room next to mine. There was blood in the bathroom where this morning I took a shower.'

According to Fox:
"I received 23 fan letters today — that makes the count up to 35 letters," London's Daily Mail quotes Knox as writing. "All of them reassure me that they believe me — the majority comment on how beautiful I am.

"I've received blatant love letters, a marriage proposal and others wanting to get to know 'the girl with the angel face.'"

""I'm writing this because I want to remember," she says. "I want to remember because this is an experience not many people will ever have. I am not saying I am glad everything that has happened has happened. If it were up to me, my friend would never have been killed.""

""Apparently someone out there saw me on TV and thought I was 'hot,' so they set up a Web site where people comment on how pretty I am," Knox writes. "Weird. Flattered but that really isn't important right now."

""If I were ugly, would they be writing me wishing me encouragement? I don't think so," Knox writes. "Jeez, I'm not even that good looking. People are acting like I'm the prettiest thing since Helen of Troy."

Then from the DailyMail:
"At times, it is vulgar and vain to the point of narcissism; at others, it is pathetically self-pitying, as though the author regards herself as a cruelly wronged Shakespearean heroine.

'I'm writing this because I want to remember. I want to remember because this is an experience not many people will ever have. I am not saying I am glad everything that has happened has happened.

'If it were up to me, my friend would never have been killed.'

So begins what must surely rank as one of most extraordinary and revealing documents ever to have been penned behind prison bars - the 80-page personal diary kept by Amanda 'Foxy' Knox.

In the memoir, the young woman accused of murdering British exchange student Meredith Kercher claims that one of her jailers has developed a sexual fascination for her."
"'Once again he is hitting on me,' she complains.

She also seems to relish being the centre of attention from lusting male admirers.
'Apparently someone out there saw me on TV and thought I was "hot" so they set up a website where people comment on how pretty I am,' she writes.

'Weird. Flattered but that really isn't important right now.'
A few days later she returns to this theme: 'I received 23 fan letters today - that makes the count up to 35 letters. [They] are all from guys ranging from 20-35 on average, although I did receive a letter from a guy in his 50s.

'All of them reassure me that they believe me - the majority comment on how beautiful I am. I've received blatant love letters, a marriage proposal and others wanting to get to know "the girl with the angel face".

'Included in one was an article cut from a newspaper that talked about this new "Amanda" fad, about the letters I'm getting, as well as the websites that have popped up where people post comments like "she's hot" or "I'd do her".'
'If I were ugly, would they be writing me wishing me encouragement? I don't think so. Jeez, I'm not even that good looking. People are acting like I'm the prettiest thing since Helen of Troy.'
Perhaps intending to tease Raffaele Sollecito, who is said to have ditched her while in prison, she says all this sexual attention 'makes me think of DJ'.

This is a reference to the American boyfriend she left behind when she travelled to Italy, and whom she now claims to love the most.

Was it also with Sollecito in mind, one wonders, that she chronicled in such detail the cloying attentions of a senior prison official?
'The guy is getting kind of weird. He says he looks at me like a daughter but whenever I'm with him I always feel like he's looking for something - and he seems very interested in my sex life.
'1) He winks at me when I receive "fan letters" from male inmates who have seen me on TV. 2) He tells me not to cry because it makes me ugly. 3) He's commenting on my figure quite a bit and blatantly gives me a stare up and down when he sees me. 4) He asks me if I dream about sex. 5) He wants to know if I'm good at sex. 6) When I told him I thought it strange that he was interested in my sexuality (I was being polite, what I meant was RUDE) he acted like it was no big deal and it was my fault for not drawing the line.'

'I don't want to die, I want to get married and have children. I want to create something good. I want my life. Why why why?' she protests.

There is more of this. Much more. It only stops several days later, when the prison doctor informs her, incorrectly, she later concludes, that blood tests have revealed her to be HIV positive.

Knox then lists the seven men she has had sex with - 'in Italy', she writes first, but crosses out the word 'Italy' and writes 'in general' - concluding that she could theoretically have been infected by three of them.

All she 'remembers' is that she and Sollecito left her house at 5pm, some four hours before Meredith arrived home from a friend's. At his flat she says, they used his computer to find songs to play on her guitar, read Harry Potter in German, watched the film Amelie, and shared a fish supper before smoking marijuana and having sex.
They fell asleep, and by the time they awoke next morning Meredith had been murdered.

'It's that simple,' she says, pronouncing her innocence for the umpteenth time.

[mafitz701]

Whoa! That’s quite the link!

I did say I was signing off the boards and here I am still…

OK - I had a quick look and read your very detailed and excellent post .

In addition to your comments I have my two cents to add:

“DNA belonging to Amanda Knox, Meredith's American flatmate and one of the prime suspects in her murder, has allegedly been found in the bathroom.”
“Tests have shown that her (My comment: Amanda Knox I presume?) DNA was found in a splash of blood on a tap, and on the plug in the sink, suggesting she may have washed her hands after the crime.”

Certainly, DNA from Knox and Sollecito would have been found in the bathroom if they used it! Therefore the reported mix of Knox’s and Meredith’s DNA on the blood splattered tap and plug makes me ask - can they tell if Knox’s DNA was on the tap before or after the blood was splattered?

"According to Italian police, DNA belonging to Knox's lover Raffaele Sollecito has allegedly been discovered on a bra clasp belonging to Meredith."

But this bra was NOT the one identified at the crime scene so what point are they trying to make? This random bra could just have transfer DNA due to it being around the apartment. This is another one of those red herring 'findings' that needs more explanation in regard to its relevance.

"However, DNA belonging to Rudy Guede, who is being held in Capanne prison near Perugia along with Knox and Sollecito, was also allegedly found on the bloody bra that is seen at the foot of one of the new photos."

So…. this bloody bra was actually found at the crime scene and contains DNA belonging to the convicted murderer Rudy Guede - relevant!

I mean it - I'm signing off now - but thanks for keeping me up !

I know I know its addictive. Go get some sleep. But I am really wondering if the Italian authorities have managed to take a pretty simple case of sexually motivated homicide and outdo the media in sensationalizing it beyond recognition.

The self-absorbed stuff at 20 is fairly normal too. Some stuff is being over blown and dang it I just want to see the original diary. They have made everything else public, so why not just publish the diary in its original form and then Augustus who actually speaks Italian can translate it. At least then it would be in context.

I have just come across an article that states photos of Meredith's body were made public which has for obvious reasons "upset" her family. I think upset would be a gross understatement.

[legalease]

Legalese,I don't know anything about the Italian legal system but I might could find out things on an Italian site since I read Italian. What is your specific question?

Thanks catdoc:

I don't have anything too specific to ask at present - perhaps some info on 'chain of evidence' and the workings of the Italian legal system as the trial progresses. In other words, just help me (us?) in understanding the 'Italian way', and correct or inform us when you see fit. This case should be an interesting education for North Americans who are not familiar with European legal wranglings. Thanks for your offer and I know you'll be called on to interpret or explain things as we go along ... I know I'll be asking!

Good night all!

[mafitz701]

Okay now it gets really contradictory:

I found this from the Sun dated from Nov. 2007.

"The Algerian musician being hunted was spotted on CCTV near the death flat.

He is thought have fled to France – and a bloody fingerprint on a cushion does not match the other three suspects.

Police say mobile phone records put Lumumba near the crime scene – NOT, as he claims, at the bar he runs. "

Leaked details of an intercepted phone conversation between Sollecito, 24, and his father Franco were revealed by Italian newspapers yesterday. Four days after Meredith was killed, Franco says: “Raffaele, don’t walk about with a knife.

If the police find it, who knows what they may think.”

His son replies: “They didn’t even find it on me, those stupid policemen.”

[mafitz701]

I found this:
Guede was identified after police found a bloody fingerprint on a pillow at the scene of the crime. DNA tests have also linked Guede to feces found in a toilet at the villa Kercher shared with Knox and two Italians.

Man I am dieing to know where Meredith's DNA was found on the handle of the knife? Was it in the butt of the knife? Because they are claiming that she and/or Sollecito purchased bleach (suspicious with a murder) and cleaned the knife with it. Yet, bleach destroys dna, so the DNA would have had to be somewhere well concealed from bleach.

Then I found in the Daily Mail which has convicted her already, but the light colored skirt and top Amanda was seen on CCTV wearing upon entering the apartment at 8:43pm the evening of the murder was found at Sollecito's apartment. But the clothes had no traces of blood on them.

Then the Italian prosecutor or forensic expert says that the shoe prints are similar to Sollecito's Nikes. But the prints do not look like a Nike shoe print. They look like a sneaker but now I can't remember the name of it. It has a big circle on the tread up at the front of the foot. But it ain't Nike. And that one shoe print had the circle. Its driving me nuts. I vaguely remember getting my 14 year old skater wannabe a pair of sneakers last year that had that circle in the tread.

[mafitz701]

Okay so Guida was the suspect that fled to France after the murder. Shock me.

That knife dna better be good, because this is sounding more and more like Guida raped and murdered Meredith and going by the fact that his feces was found at the crime scene, this was a disorganized killing, and one of his first.

I wonder if they bothered to find out if he has raped before? Or if they just decided this was a satanic killing that was a result of Meredith not wanting to have an orgy with Amanda, Sollecito, and Guida, or possibly a Manga comic inspired killing orchestrated by Sollecito and Amanda that just happened to involve Guida leaving his DNA INSIDE Meredith's body.

Which is all that have been presented by the media.

[gmr32]

I've been going back and reading through the links. The judge who committed Knox and Sollecito to stand trial deliberated for 11 hours. IMO, that means he doesn't believe Knox's I-Pod of changing stories or that the investigation undertaken by the Italian authorities will not hold up in court.

Now, I agree that her sexual history is not on trial here. But...she's not done herself any good with her writings. The crux of the prosecutor's case is that Meredith was murdered during a sex game gone out of hand that Knox and Sollecito were involved in. Now Knox going on about the sex she's had and her boyfriends is obviously going to be taken into account. Because she was 20 or so at the time of the murders should her age make any difference? Some posters have been suggesting that her writings are some sort of 'rite of passage' that should be ignored because of her age. I don't agree with that and I suspect the Italian authorities haven't looked at them in that light either.

Her defense lawyer should have had a quiet word with her about the damage to her defense if this ever came to light. Which it has. This topic will have to be dealt with by her defense team. It will be interesting to see what line they take.

[n/t]

Some insight on the Italian vs American criminal courts:

There are major differences between the Italian and American criminal courts starting with the jury. In the U.S., a jury of 12 citizens decides the case. Everyone gets an equal vote and the vote must be unanimous for a conviction.

In Italy, the jury is made up of two judges, including the president of the court, and six citizens. And it takes just a simple majority to convict.

"They have equal votes and in the case of a tie the President has a double vote so they are 8, but the president has a double vote,” said Escoffier.

“If Amanda were being tried here, both sides would get a say in who's on the jury,” said Bremner. "That's fairness when you can choose 12 jurors, select them through voir dire and jury selection. In Italy, zero, she has zero input. They're already impaneled."

The jurors were selected last month at random from a list of Perugia-area residents. They are screened by the president of the court.

"If they are already made up their mind and publicly expressed their ideas about the case, about the judgment, they can be removed,” said Bremner.

Then there's the timeframe. In the U.S., once a trial starts it moves quickly, with court held four to five days a week until there's a verdict. In Italy, the court meets about four times a month, meaning it could be a very slow process, taking months and months and months, going into summer or even fall.

"Keep in mind the pre-charging hearing, lasted up to a year, here it would be 72 hours, so it's going to be long...they have infrequent meetings," said Bremner.

So jurors can't be sequestered. But Escoffier says Americans shouldn't fear the Italian system.

"I think that it will be fair," he said.

KING 5 Investigator Linda Byron asked: "And presume her innocence?"

"The presumption of innocence is a constitutional guarantee," said Escoffier.

http://www.king5.com/topstories/stories/NW_011509INV-amanda-knox-SW.7f9e1f4.html

Interesting article.

[catdoc]

I agree with you 100% gmr32. Her writings reflect a woman who is vain, vindictive,self-absorbed, and obsessed with using sex to manipulate and control. She also equated sex with drugs and violent fantasies. Her immorality, blatant promiscuity and penchant for lying will reflect on her credibility and charactor to the jury. She seems unable to control her urge to keep journals,,,,to her own detriment.

[gmr32]

I thought links were supposed to go on the other thread. Am I reading this wrong?

[gmr32]

I agree with you 100% gmr32. Her writings reflect a woman who is vain, vindictive,self-absorbed, and obsessed with using sex to manipulate and control. She also equated sex with drugs and violent fantasies. Her immorality, blatant promiscuity and penchant for lying will reflect on her credibility and charactor to the jury. She seems unable to control her urge to keep journals,,,,to her own detriment.

And I agree with you. She needs, for her own sake, until she gets to stand up in court and tell her story, to shut up. Including asking Sollecito about his haircut in court. And I'm sure that some people will argue 'it's the media picking on her.' Then it's up to her counsel to take her in hand, for her own good, and shut her down. This case is, from what I've read, a media feeding frenzy in Italy. Everything she says and does, what she wears, who she talks to, is going to be analysed and discussed.

Now, from what the link n/t just provided suggests, her jury has already been chosen and sequestered. Maybe that will work to her advantage but I suspect not. I guess some will depend on how much of her writings the jurors are aware of and much they will take that into account. Given that the thrust of the prosecutors case is that Meredith was killed in a sex game gone wrong that Knox and Sollecito were involved in, I would think, IMO, her writings will be looked at closely.

[n/t]

And I agree with you. She needs, for her own sake, until she gets to stand up in court and tell her story, to shut up. Including asking Sollecito about his haircut in court. And I'm sure that some people will argue 'it's the media picking on her.' Then it's up to her counsel to take her in hand, for her own good, and shut her down. This case is, from what I've read, a media feeding frenzy in Italy. Everything she says and does, what she wears, who she talks to, is going to be analysed and discussed.

Now, from what the link n/t just provided suggests, her jury has already been chosen and sequestered. Maybe that will work to her advantage but I suspect not. I guess some will depend on how much of her writings the jurors are aware of and much they will take that into account. Given that the thrust of the prosecutors case is that Meredith was killed in a sex game gone wrong that Knox and Sollecito were involved in, I would think, IMO, her writings will be looked at closely.

If what is being said in the media is true, this crime in no way reflects a "sex game gone wrong". This was no accident. Meredith was brutally murdered.

[n/t]

I thought links were supposed to go on the other thread. Am I reading this wrong?

Snippets of articles can be posted here with a link for discussion. The links thread is for links only - no discussion.

[augustus]

I can't believe how lax the Italian prison authorities are!

They allowed Amanda and other inmates to make a movie in prison.
If she gets off, she'll be a big star in Italy...


http://www.corriere.it/english/08_dicembre_11/amanda_stars_prison_film_9d9b077c-c78d-11dd-a4b9-00144f02aabc.shtml

[n/t]

250 witnesses, 20 investigators and dozens of experts. Wow!

~~~~

Prosecutors claims she was murdered after refusing to take part in a drug-fuelled sex game and that Knox and Sollecito tried to cover their tracks by pretending there had been a break-in.

More than 250 witnesses are expected to be called and the jury will hear from 20 investigators and dozens of experts.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23617201-details/Knox+%27upbeat+and+hopeful%27+over+Meredith+murder +trial/article.do

[n/t]

I can't believe how lax the Italian prison authorities are!

They allowed Amanda and other inmates to make a movie in prison.
If she gets off, she'll be a big star in Italy...


http://www.corriere.it/english/08_dicembre_11/amanda_stars_prison_film_9d9b077c-c78d-11dd-a4b9-00144f02aabc.shtml

It sounds more like a documentary to me. They're done here too. I just hope she's not being paid for her "performance".

[Mandymax]

Just saw those crime scene photos - how horrible. And how much more suspicious they make me of Amanda's involvement.

I mean, she says she came home and took a shower, but didn't seem to think anything was wrong. Did she take a shower in THAT BATHROOM?????? With all that blood????? And she thought nothing was wrong???????

[mafitz701]

I've been going back and reading through the links. The judge who committed Knox and Sollecito to stand trial deliberated for 11 hours. IMO, that means he doesn't believe Knox's I-Pod of changing stories or that the investigation undertaken by the Italian authorities will not hold up in court.

Now, I agree that her sexual history is not on trial here. But...she's not done herself any good with her writings. The crux of the prosecutor's case is that Meredith was murdered during a sex game gone out of hand that Knox and Sollecito were involved in. Now Knox going on about the sex she's had and her boyfriends is obviously going to be taken into account. Because she was 20 or so at the time of the murders should her age make any difference? Some posters have been suggesting that her writings are some sort of 'rite of passage' that should be ignored because of her age. I don't agree with that and I suspect the Italian authorities haven't looked at them in that light either.

Her defense lawyer should have had a quiet word with her about the damage to her defense if this ever came to light. Which it has. This topic will have to be dealt with by her defense team. It will be interesting to see what line they take.

Well see that is where it gets interesting because her defense attorney is the one who made her diary public.

[mafitz701]

Some insight on the Italian vs American criminal courts:

There are major differences between the Italian and American criminal courts starting with the jury. In the U.S., a jury of 12 citizens decides the case. Everyone gets an equal vote and the vote must be unanimous for a conviction.

In Italy, the jury is made up of two judges, including the president of the court, and six citizens. And it takes just a simple majority to convict.

"They have equal votes and in the case of a tie the President has a double vote so they are 8, but the president has a double vote,” said Escoffier.

“If Amanda were being tried here, both sides would get a say in who's on the jury,” said Bremner. "That's fairness when you can choose 12 jurors, select them through voir dire and jury selection. In Italy, zero, she has zero input. They're already impaneled."

The jurors were selected last month at random from a list of Perugia-area residents. They are screened by the president of the court.

"If they are already made up their mind and publicly expressed their ideas about the case, about the judgment, they can be removed,” said Bremner.

Then there's the timeframe. In the U.S., once a trial starts it moves quickly, with court held four to five days a week until there's a verdict. In Italy, the court meets about four times a month, meaning it could be a very slow process, taking months and months and months, going into summer or even fall.

"Keep in mind the pre-charging hearing, lasted up to a year, here it would be 72 hours, so it's going to be long...they have infrequent meetings," said Bremner.

So jurors can't be sequestered. But Escoffier says Americans shouldn't fear the Italian system.

"I think that it will be fair," he said.

KING 5 Investigator Linda Byron asked: "And presume her innocence?"

"The presumption of innocence is a constitutional guarantee," said Escoffier.

http://www.king5.com/topstories/stories/NW_011509INV-amanda-knox-SW.7f9e1f4.html

Interesting article.


n/t thank you very very much for explaining this. I have a major problem with this case then. Look at this board. People have her convicted all over this board, and all over the internet for that matter. She is going to be convicted regardless.

They have already made the crime photos public, they showed photos of Meredith's body on local Italian new.

And STILL I searched into the better part of the night for this "evidence" that would actually put Amanda at the murder.

The only thing they have is her conflicting statements. The rest of the evidence against her isn't even circumstantial.

[JD1974]

Just saw those crime scene photos - how horrible. And how much more suspicious they make me of Amanda's involvement.

I mean, she says she came home and took a shower, but didn't seem to think anything was wrong. Did she take a shower in THAT BATHROOM?????? With all that blood????? And she thought nothing was wrong???????



I wondered that also. There is blood all over, they didn't notice that there was so much blood in the bathroom it actually looks like someone tried to paint it red?

[mafitz701]

Oh yeah the witnesses are wonderful. They have some guy who claims Amanda and Sollecito ran into him outside of the Apartment that Meredith was murdered in, Sollecito was holding a knife and yet the cctv camera at the apartment did not capture this?

Amanda claimed she was returning to the apartment to take a shower and found the blood and Meredith's door locked.

Also, if she was involved in the killing, where were the blood clothes she would have been wearing? She was seen on cctv going into the apartment at 8:43pm, wearing a light colored skirt and shirt. The same clothing was found in Sollecito's apartment, free of any blood stains.

For god's sake just look at all of the evidence.

[n/t]

Oh yeah the witnesses are wonderful. They have some guy who claims Amanda and Sollecito ran into him outside of the Apartment that Meredith was murdered in, Sollecito was holding a knife and yet the cctv camera at the apartment did not capture this?

Amanda claimed she was returning to the apartment to take a shower and found the blood and Meredith's door locked.

Also, if she was involved in the killing, where were the blood clothes she would have been wearing? She was seen on cctv going into the apartment at 8:43pm, wearing a light colored skirt and shirt. The same clothing was found in Sollecito's apartment, free of any blood stains.

For god's sake just look at all of the evidence.

I'm guessing if this was some sort of orgy as being reported, she wouldn't have been wearing clothes when the murder occurred. Had a shower, got dressed and left the apartment.

[mafitz701]

Nope doesn't work, look at the crime scene photo of the bathroom. No one took a shower after Meredith was killed.

[mafitz701]

The other questionable act by the Italian authorities is that they have been very willing to release "incriminating" things, like the most telling, the CCTV footage that covered the apartment.

They showed the footage of Amanda going into the apartment at 8:43 but have not made the footage of Amanda leaving the apartment public. The footage of her leaving the apartment would finalize the timeline. The footage of all movement around the apartment would help figure out the timeline for when the murder actually took place.

Last year they had Lumumba's mobile phone pinged near the apartment after 10 pm. They interviewed pub patrons and they all stated that Lumumba's pub was closed at 10 pm that night, which contradicts Lumumba's statements that he was in the bar talking to a Swiss guy.

Then the Italian police cleared Lumumba because they contacted the Swiss guy by phone and the Swiss guy gave Lumumba an alibi, even though witnesses including pub employees all stated the pub was closed by 10pm then police NEVER explained why if this was the case Lumumba's mobile phone was used in the vicinity of the apartment.

Then they were able to connect a blood fingerprint found on a pillow, and dna taken from the bloody bra as well as dna from inside of Meredith's body to Guida.

The authorities drop the case against Lumumba do not explain the conflicting witness reports or the mobile phone use, but maintained the case against Guida and declared that Sollecito and Amanda were involved in the murder even though the DNA and fingerprints pointed to Guida.

They claimed at first that it was a satanic ritual orgy slaying instigated by Amanda. Then they claimed it was a Manga comic inspired killing instigated by Sollecito. Now they are claiming it was an orgy that went wrong.

They have "fit" the evidence and their theories as to motive around their suspects. The only one that can be proven by the evidence is Guida to have been with Meredith at the time she was killed.

They also claimed the crime scene was cleaned up, but their own crime photos clearly show it was NOT cleaned up. The bloody shoe prints were easy to see from the photos, no one cleaned them up, and lastly the bathroom clearly shows no one cleaned up.

People on here keep going over how Amanda and Sollecito kept changing their stories, and you have declared them guilty because of that even though we all know of TOO many cases that involved false conffessions and incriminating statements made by suspects who were later found completely innocent.

No one has found anything suspect in the fact that not only have the Italian authorities changed their own statements over and over again, but they have made crime photos, so-called confidential judicial reports, and other information pertaining to the case public. However everything they have released has only villified their suspects and worked to convince the public they are guilty, long before they even had their trial.

If the Italian authorties made all of the evidence public they would not look suspect in my eyes. But the fact is that they either didn't gather all of the evidence, or have chosen to suppress evidence.

One example is the fact that they had the footage of Amanda going into the apartment at 8:43 wearing a light colored skirt and top, they found that very same outfit at Sollecito's apartment on the floor in the bedroom. So, where is the footage from the same security camera of Amanda leaving the apartment? What time did she leave the apartment?

Why did they not use the CCTV footage coupled with the security camera of the apartment to establish their timeline?

The scene was bloody, why did they not find blood on the nikes that Sollecito owned that the authorities claimed made the bloody shoe prints? Where is the bloody or blood stained clothing worn by Sollecito and Amanda? But they claim to have found "dna" on the handle of a knife blade found in Sollecito's apartment belonging to Amanda, with dna belonging to Meredith on the blade?

They worked so hard to cover their tracks that they left the crime scene a mess, Guida's poop was found in the toilet which the crime photos clearly show is bloody, and yet they didn't even bother to flush the toilet, however were skilled enough to remove blood evidence from clothes and shoes, while neglecting to from the knife, took showers but managed to preserve the bloody crime scene while not getting a drop of this same blood on their clothes.

Meredith's throat was cut! She would have lost a HUGE amount of blood from that wound.

[mafitz701]

Timeline of what is known:

November 01:
Sometime between 8 pm and 4 am Meredith Kercher is possibly raped and murdered.
8:43 pm - Amanda is seen by CCTV footage and the Apartment's own security camera entering the apartment.

November 02:
0747 am - Amanda is seen on CCTV footage and with a receipt found at Sollecito's apartment buying "cleaning supplies". Italian police claim that a pack of cleaning rags and a bottle of bleach is what she purchased.

Meredith's cell phone is found in the yard next door to the apartment. Italian police go to the apartment to return Meredith's cell phone.

Sollecito and Amanda go to the apartment and find the police there.

Someone discovers what looks to be a break in.

They find Meredith's bedroom door locked. Police break in the door and find Meredith's naked body under a duvet.

[mafitz701]

Timelines from the Seattle PI:
November 01:

Around 11 a.m. Amanda returns to the cottage. From her email: "The last time I saw Meredith, beautiful, funny, was when I came home ... she was still asleep, but after I had taken a shower and was fumbling around in the kitchen she emerged from her room with the blood of her costume (vampire) still dripping down her chin. We talked for a while in the kitchen, how the night went, what our plans were for the day. Nothing out of the ordinary. Then she went to take a shower and I began to start eating."

12:30 p.m. Filomena returns from her boyfriend Marco's place: "I went to Via della Pergola with my boyfriend to change clothes because we were going to lunch at Luca Altieri's house, a friend of Marco's. Amanda was sitting at the kitchen table wearing a white and dark grey-striped top."

1:00 p.m. Raffaele arrives at the cottage to eat lunch,

4 p.m. "Meredith was there but she left in a hurry about 4 pm without saying where she was going," says Raffaele. He thought it was "cute" that she was wearing her ex-boyfriend's jeans

4:00-4:30 p.m. Meredith arrives at Robyn Butterworth's flat, according to Sophie Purton, another British friend, who got there at 3:30 p.m. Amy Frost is also there.

5 p.m. Amanda and Raffaele leave the cottage. They say they didn't return until the next morning,

6:00 p.m. Meredith and her friends talk about many things and then start to eat the pizza they prepared. They top that off with gelato, espresso and water--nothing alcoholic. Then they watch "The Notebook" on DVD.

Around 6:00 p.m. Raffaele and Amanda are in his flat. They did or did not make love, take showers, use the computer, read a Harry Potter book in German (her), eat a fish dinner. But he does get a SMS saying he's missed a call (according to Nazione). They do put "Amelie" on the DVD.

8.18 p.m. Patrick Lumumba, Knox's employer at the Le Chic bar, sends a SMS to AK. He tells her not to come to work.

8:35. Amanda sends a SMS to Ak. She says, "Ci vediamo. Buona notte."

8:30 p.m. Rudy says he arrived at Meredith's for a date. She wasn't there, so he waited.

8:40 p.m. A music student, Jovana Popovic, rings the bell at Raffaele's to say she doesn't need a ride to the station after all. She speaks to Amanda. Raffaele may be on phone with his dad at this time, since we don't have land line records.

8:42 p.m. Raffaele receives a 3 minute, 41 second phone call from his father.

8:45 p.m. "The Notebook" ends (per Sophie).

9:00 p.m. Meredith tells her friends she's tired and wants an early night. Sophie walks her partway home and that's the last time she ever sees of her.

9:17 p.m. Amanda and Raffaele finish watching "Amelie." Last contact with Raffaele's computer (per Nazione).

9:30 p.m. Meredith calls her Mom. Length of call?

10:00 p.m. Someone makes a call on Meredith's cellphone to her bank in the UK. It doesn't go through because the caller didn't punch the proper area code for London.

10:25 p.m. Rudy says he left Meredith's around this time.

10:30 p.m. A black man running up the street near the cottage nearly knocks over an Italian man, according to witness reports. Neighbor Nara Capezzali reports hearing a terrible scream that night, but can't remember when. She also heard people running but cannot say how many.

2 a.m. to 4.a.m. Rudy seen dancing at Domus disco.

[mafitz701]

November 2:
*9:00-12:00 (guesswork), Nov. 2. Lana Elisabetta, an elderly Italian woman, is frightened when she discovers somebody threw two cellphones into her garden at Via Sperandi 5--either the previous night or in the early morning. She calls the postal police, aka the Flying Squad. They trace one phone back to Filomena Romanelli at Via della Pergola #7. Filomena lent this cell to Meredith Kercher, her British roommate. The other cellphone belongs to Meredith and is registered in the United Kingdom.


10:30 a.m. American exchange student Amanda Knox arrives at that same address, a stonewashed cottage she shares with Filomena, Meredith and Laura, an Italian woman who works in a law firm with Filomena. Amanda has spent the night at the nearby flat of Raffaele Sollecito, her Italian boyfriend, and has come home to take a shower.

"When I arrived home the door was wide open," she told prosecutor Giuliano Mignini in a Dec. 17 interrogation. "I thought it was strange, I thought that maybe somebody ... But no one ever leaves the door open, but there was the possibility that someone had left it unlocked maybe for a moment. " She recalled that she went into her room and then in the bathroom. She saw traces of blood on the bathmat, but did not feel suspicious: "There was not a lot of blood ... could be anything .... "

But after Amanda showered, she went into cottage's other bathroom and discovered feces in the toilet. That's when she began to think that "something was not right."

*11:30 a.m. (per Raffaele). Alarmed, Amanda returns to Raffaele's, locking the cottage door behind her. He tells her to call Meredith.

*12:07 p.m. Amanda calls Mez's UK phone. No answer.

*12:08 p.m. Amanda calls Filomena. The latter has spent the night at her boyfriend Marco's house. Now she is at La Feria de Morti (Fair of the Dead) in Perugia with her close friend Paola Grande.

*12:11 p.m. Amanda calls the Italian phone that Mez had borrowed from Filomena.

*12:11 p.m. Amanda calls Mez's UK phone again.

*12:12 p.m. Filomena calls Amanda.

*12:20 p.m.. Filomena calls Amanda.

*Time? Raffaele and Amanda return to the cottage. They find Filomena's window broken, her room trashed. Meredith does not respond when they knock on her door.

Raffaele recalls: "Amanda unlocked the door and I went in. I noticed that Filomena's door was open. There was glass on the floor and the room was a mess. Amanda's door was open but the room was tidy. Then I went to Meredith's door and saw it was locked. First, I checked to see if what Amanda had told me about the blood in the bathroom was true. I noticed there were drops of blood in the sink and there was something strange on the bathmat, a mixture of blood and water, while the rest of the bathroom was clean. Nothing else was out of place.

"Just then, Amanda went into the big bathroom and came out looking scared. She clung to me and said that when she was showering earlier, there had been stools in the lavatory bowl but now it was clean. I wondered what was going on and went out to see if I could climb up to Meredith's window. I tried to force the door but I couldn't open it. Then I decided to call my sister for advice because she is a lieutenant in the carabinieri. She told me to call 112 but by this time the postal police had arrived. In my earlier statement, I told you a whole lot of rubbish because Amanda convinced me about her version and I didn't think about the contradictions."

*12:25 p.m. Postal police arrive. (They now say.)

*12:34 p.m. Filomena calls Amanda. In her witness statement, Filomena says, "We spoke to each other for the third time and she told me that the window in my room was broken and that my room was in a mess. At this point I asked her to call the police and she told me that she already had."
*12.50 p.m. Raffaele calls his sister in the carabiniere, a different branch of the Italian police.

*12:51 p.m.. Raffaele calls the carabiniere. They ask him to call back.

In his diary, he says: "At the end I think that the only thing to do was break down Meredith's door. We try, but we cannot, then we call my sister and she tells me to call 112. I call them and leave the name of Amanda and the details and try to explain briefly the situation. They say (they will call back?). We pause to wait outside and suddenly you have two men and they tell us they are the postal police who are trying to find Filomena, as they had found two mobile phones and one of the numbers belongs to Filomena. Amanda thinks the phones are Meredith's and I ask the police to break the door.

*12:54. Raffaele calls the carabiniere again.
RS: Hello, good morning, listen, ah ... someone broke into the house through a window and made a big mess. There is a closed door. The address is Via della Pergola #7 in Perugia.

Police: They managed to enter that way, they broke a window? And how do you know that's how they entered?

RS: You can see the signs. There are also stains of blood in the bathroom. They didn't take anything. The problem is the door is locked ... There is a lot of blood.

Police: There is a locked door? Which door is locked?

RS: The one belonging to the roommate who isn't here and we don't know where she is. Yes, yes, we tried to call her, but she does not respond to anyone.

Police: Okay, good, now we will send a patrol so we verify the situation.

Audio released by Tg1

*Around 1:00 p.m. Filomena and Paola arrive at the cottage. Paola recalls: "'We arrived just before 1pm and when we entered the house we met Luca Alteri (Paola's boyfriend) and Marco (Filomena's boyfriend) with a man that we later discovered worked for the postal police and who was there with his colleague. Amanda and Raffaele were in Amanda's room because at a certain point they came out into the corridor and we introduced ourselves."

*1:15 p.m.? After some discussion, Luca Altieri breaks down the door to Meredith's room, according to witness statements.

Raffaele says in his diary: "Initially, the police refused to violate the privacy, but after Filomena arrived, her boyfriend and their respective friends, he was convinced to break in the door."

Paola recalls: "Amanda said that Meredith always kept her door locked but Filomena said the exact opposite. We then started to worry about the fact that her door was locked and Raffaele said that he'd tried to break it down.

"We asked the police to open the door but they said they couldn't so we decided to do it. Luca gave the door, which had a crack (a scratch, rotten part) near the handle, about four kicks and it opened. The room was quite dark but I was just able to see (just for a second???) a foot protruding from a cover.

Per Filomena: "The door of Meredith's room, at the moment the corpse was discovered, was broken down only by Altieri, while Sollecito was to the right of her, of Marco and of Altieri."

Amanda: "I was in the kitchen standing aside, having really done my part for the situation, but when they opened Meredith's door and I heard Filomena scream "a foot! a foot!" in Italian, I immediately tried to get to Meredith's room, but Raffaele grabbed me and took me out of the house."--from the email.

"All I remember was that Filomena was saying a foot, a foot. I was in shock. I couldn't understand what was going on. All I heard was a foot, a foot. I thought there was a foot in her room." --from the Dec. 17 interrogation.

"We were pushed out. There were police outside and I was sitting on the ground and I could not ... I was in shock and did not understand what happened."--from the Dec. 17 interrogation.

[mafitz701]

What Seattle PI has left out is that Amanda was captured on CCTV footage at 8:45 pm entering the apartment.

[mafitz701]

Never mind apparently the cctv claim was false. Italian police do not have cctv footage of Amanda going to the apartment the night of November 01.

The store she was supposed to be buying cleaning supplies at at 0745 did not open until 745.

[mafitz701]

From the times online dated 9/25/2008:
Italian television has broadcast grainy images from a security camera purporting to show Meredith Kercher, the British student murdered in Perugia nearly a year ago, arriving home shortly before the murder, followed by Rudy Guede, the African immigrant accused of taking part in the killing.

It also shows a figure identified by the television channel as Rudy Guede in a quilted jacket similar to the one Mr Guede was wearing when he was later arrested after fleeing to Germany. However lawyers for Mr Guede said that the image was so indistinct that "it could be anyone". Nicodemo Gentile, one of Mr Guede's lawyers, said: "This video proves nothing, you can't see anything, just dots".

[mafitz701]

About the layout of the cottage. The cottage was divided into two apartments. The upstairs apartment was 4 bedrooms and 2 bathrooms. Rented by Meredith, Amanda, Filomena, and Laura (all students). The downstairs apartment was rented by 4 Italian male students.

The store where Amanda was to buy the cleaning supplies was right next door to a basketball court that was used by drug dealers and drug doers.

The parking lot across the street from the cottage was also used by drug dealers and drug doers.

Both the basketball court and parking lot were used enough by junkies that one of the judge's reports notes the constant presence of syringes at both. The cctv cameras were located at the parking lot, 3 different cameras and caught the front of the cottage where the two apartments were located.

There was NO security camera at the cottage, as has been reported to many media sources and repeated on here by me.

The apartment that Meredith was murdered in had one ransacked bedroom and one window broken out that appeared to have been broken from the inside. The bedroom was Filomena's. Filomena, Laura, and the four Italian students renting the apartment downstairs were away with their families at the time of the murder because it was a holiday that was celebrated by Italians.

One bedroom in the apartment downstairs was found trashed and dna was found in the apartment downstairs that did not belong to any of the girls or the men renting the apartments.

[mafitz701]

And more:
According to http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2007/11/waiting-for-evidences.html
(much is in Italian so you can use a translator but this portion was translated to english)

"No blood found on "daddy's boy"'s knives (that doesn't mean too much because he could have hidden the only "responsible" knife).
No blood found in his car (He didn't take the car).
His house has been checked with luminol and no blood resulted from there.
No blood found on his Nike shoes (that may mean something because he should have washed them in order of completely canceling blood. His Nike snickers were believed to be the same that left the print on Meredith's blood).
Nothing coming from camera recordings. Not yet.
Yesterday they thought the blood found in the apartment below, where three students from Marche live (among whose Meredith's boyfriend) could be not of a cat, as initially maintained, but could be Meredith's. Meaning that the killer could have gone there to spread her blood in order to make fall the suspects on the students from Marche. But the three students from Marche, during those holidays, were in Marche. And the blood traces were even on the light switchers.
Meredith had the keys of the apartment below and those keys have been found in Amanda's room."

Meredith's keys to her apartment went missing.

[dgfred]

Mafitz, could you give your scenario of what actually happened?

[catdoc]

I thought links were supposed to go on the other thread. Am I reading this wrong?

I wish I knew gmr32. All my earlier links with the discussion I presented about the links were removed to the links thread. I came back and found everything gone and had to hunt it down. Too much trouble to cut and paste the discussions back to this thread. Others post links and entire articles here.

Call me confused...????

[catdoc]

If what is being said in the media is true, this crime in no way reflects a "sex game gone wrong". This was no accident. Meredith was brutally murdered.

I thought the reference to a "sex game gone wrong" meant that the accused trio had plans for a kinky or risky sex game but Meredith refused to cooperate. She was apparently not in on the plans.

[RayStar]

Is there a poll on her guilt. I vote she is Guilty as charged!

[catdoc]

Is there a poll on her guilt. I vote she is Guilty as charged!

From what I have read in the Italian and British press (not counting tabloids) I Totally agree. It will take a bombshell from the defense to get this woman off.

[cherylt]

[QUOTE=n/t;12681995]Some insight on the Italian vs American criminal courts:

***respectfully snipped***
Then there's the timeframe. In the U.S., once a trial starts it moves quickly, with court held four to five days a week until there's a verdict. In Italy, the court meets about four times a month, meaning it could be a very slow process, taking months and months and months, going into summer or even fall.

"Keep in mind the pre-charging hearing, lasted up to a year, here it would be 72 hours, so it's going to be long...they have infrequent meetings," said Bremner.


GEESH! Bet they either have low crime rates OR a HUGE backlog on trials to be brought to court. (probably more the latter) Rhetorical: how can they keep so many people in jail for so long in determining if there should even BE a trial and then meet 4 times a month to determine guilt or innocence. (hmmm, the length of an innocent person being locked up for 10 yrs - K Hilton - isn't so far off from that...) :)

[mafitz701]

Mafitz, could you give your scenario of what actually happened?

Honestly, everything I have found suggests that Meredith was the victim of a violent sexual offender.

It boggles my mind that people aren't paying attention to the fact that Guida defecated at the crime scene.

Then I found earlier today that Selenza (Meredith's boyfriend) who lived in the apartment downstairs knew Guida and that Guida had made prior visits to their apartment, but was not a regular visitor to the upstairs apartment.

What I think happened is pretty run of the mill stuff.

I think Guida is a predator. He was arrested prior to this attack for a burglary, then arrested after being found with an 11" knife in a children's daycare or school (translation didn't make that clear) and claimed he was unable to get a hotel for the night so he had stayed in the school to sleep and only had the knife for protection. These were the offenses he was arrested for in Perugia.

I think he had seen Meredith before, possibly tried to talk to her but was rebuffed. He watched her and got to know her routine. The opportunity presented itself when Filomena and Laura as well as the 4 students living downstairs all left to be with their families for the religous holiday. Amanda was off with her boyfriend and according to reports she was basically living with Solliceto at that point.

He had Meredith home alone. I do not know for sure how he got in, but because Italian police are saying the window was broken from the inside, I believe he knocked on Meredith's door with a ruse, likely to claim he was looking for one of the guys that lived downstairs or left some money downstairs, something. Just enough to get her off guard and let him come in.

I don't know how they came to be in the bathroom but I am convinced that is where the attack started because of the amount of blood on the back of the sink and wall, and the blood pooled by the shower, enough that it had completely soaked the towel, but if you look at the bathroom floor there are no drops of blood to show the towel was put there after the murder, so I think the towel was already on the floor.

There is also blood at the base of the toilet and in the corner of the bathroom on and around the little drawer storage unit.

So here is what I think happened: (and thank you for asking)

I think he grabbed her from behind at the bathroom sink. I think he cut her throat at least once during that encounter and they were struggling in the bathroom. He got control of her, kept the arm holding the knife around her neck, and carried/dragged her upright into her bedroom. He threw her face down on the floor, but the struggling in that room was so minimal that even though she bled the most up against the nightstand and wardrobe, nothing in that room was disturbed.

She was on her stomach when her clothing was removed forcefully enough to tear the Levi's label on the back of her jeans and the bra strap.

He cut her throat more to keep her from struggling or to stop her from making sound, and turned her over to sexually assault her. I think he had to have her facing him, looking at him when he did it. He defecated in her toilet to mark his territory and show that he owned her.

I think the reasons that Amanda and Sollecito gave so many different stories is because they were stoned enough that they really have no idea what went on, but the police had them second guessing themselves enough that they started telling lies and got tangled up in them. I think its why the lies do not match the crime scene photos.

I also found out that the lingerie shopping spree that some people have made a big deal over happened while the apartment was still off limits. No one was allowed to remove clothing or belongings from the apartment. It is not unusual put in that context of events for Amanda to have had to go buy clothing and underwear if she was unable to get clothes from her apartment.

[mafitz701]

Even the judge who sentenced Guida didn't believe the orgy theory and said so in his report. He called Migini's orgy theory as "fanciful descriptive reconstruction".

I think it is safe to assume that had EVIDENCE of a wild orgy rape been proven it would have come out at Guida's trial at the very least, instead of being a figment of the Prosecutor's imagination that had the judge at Guida's trial dismissing it.

[cherylt]

Even the judge who sentenced Guida didn't believe the orgy theory and said so in his report. He called Migini's orgy theory as "fanciful descriptive reconstruction".

I think it is safe to assume that had EVIDENCE of a wild orgy rape been proven it would have come out at Guida's trial at the very least, instead of being a figment of the Prosecutor's imagination that had the judge at Guida's trial dismissing it.


That is very interesting... The judge said it was "fanciful" but the judge for this trial didn't (at least enough to dismiss the case). In fact, I heard the Pros 1st theory was some kind of satanic ritual, which is of course, absurd...

I believe your theory too. I think Guede is a typical predator, may have been obsessed w/ Meredith and waited for his opportunity. It was stupid for AK & RS to lie about anything, but they could have been confused due to the pot. However, things can also get lost in translation &/or the facts reported on some things are not correct... JMO... Who knows?

By the way - thank you for all the info you posted. I just spent 35 minutes reading all of it over & really appreciate it. RE: the diary, I didn't read anything out of the ordinary, really. There were no salacious details, no admissions. I'm sure there are other parts of the diary they may seem that she is more sexual, but I haven't seen anything. If you have a link to more diary entries, I would appreciate you posting them... Of course, the Pros leaked only things that would villify her. I agree w/ that. That happens here too though, but both sides tend to leak. I wonder why the defense hasn't "leaked" some of their facts proving their client's innocense? I guess they want to save it all for trial, and don't want to notify the Pros of it lest they go out of their way to disprove...

If they/she/he is guilty, I don't see it [yet]. For now, I say "not guilty" and will look forward to seeing how the trial progresses. For those who believe she is unequivocally Guilty, please don't stone me. I am usually on that side myself. But for this one, I don't see it. It looks like a "trumped up" case, and I hate to say that....

Thanks again, mafitz!

[mafitz701]

Found the November 07 Judicial Report translated and published in full by the Telegraph.UK

Will put the link in the links section.

However here are some interesting portions of it:

"From reading the first summary of Dr Lalli's report, deposited at the court on November 8 2007, after the autopsy on the corpse of Meredith Kercher, it emerges that the wound had not hit the carotide artery so the death was preceded by a relatively slow agony, circumstances which allow use to date back the time of the criminal act to between 21.30pm and 11.30pm on the day of November 1 2007, a timetable which tallies with the consumption of dinner in an hour before 9pm."

"In the course of the investigation many youths were questioned which Meredith had the opportunity of knowing and spending time with in her time in Perugia and nothing in particular emerged about her private life except that for around three weeks she had had a sentimental attachment with SILENZI Giacomo, one of the four boys who lived in the apartment on the ground floor of the building at Via della Pergola 7, the others being Marzan Marco, Bonassi Stefano and Luciani Riccardo. "

"Romanelli had above all ties with Laura Mezzetti also because of shared interests, while the two foreign girls were close and had similar daily habits in that both were students who usually went together to the university and had the same circle of friends."


and here are the conflicting statements in exact quote with times of the interviews:

"The attention of the investigators centred, however, on Knox Amanda and her boyfriend, Sollecito Raffaele.

In the first place, when it comes to these two, it has been shown that despite their affirmations to the Postal Police, it is not true that they had called 112 for the intervention of the Carabinieri military police, thinking that they had suffered a blow.

In fact, from our investigation it emerged that the Postal Police arrived at 12.35 while the call to 112 came at 12.51 and 12.54, circumstances that suggest a conduct that they wished it to be thought they had been surprised outside the building where the homicide was carried out."

This is what got the police suspicious to start with.

This is where Amanda has some explaining to do not the crime photo of the smaller bathroom. Just how bloody it was. Amanda says this:
"Knox Amanda was heard for the first time on 2 November 2007 and on that occasion said she had seen Meredith at 1pm at the apartment that the aforementioned occupied, where she found her together with her boyfriend Sollecito Raffaele, and that she saw her leave at around 1500 to 1600 but did not know where she was going, and that she stayed with Sollecito until 1700, and that they went to his apartment, where they spent the whole night.

And that she returned to the apartment in Via della Pergola 7 at 1100 on the successive morning and had found the door open, that she tried to call the housemates but had no response, and that she was in one of the two bathrooms when she found traces of blood which she did not worry about cleaning, and to have noticed that in the other bathroom the water was full of faeces, and that she was astonished by did not try to clean it, and that she left the apartment at 11.30, closing the front door and locking it, and that she went back to Sollecito's apartment "

Then Sollecito says that the toilet water was clean but the report states the following:
"And that she had tried to contact Meredith but without any result, and that she went back to the apartment in Via della Pergola in the company of Sollecito and that she noticed that the glass of a window was broken, and that she discovered the door of the room occupied by Meredith was locked and that she decided to call the Carabinieri after Sollecito called his sister to ask what they should do.

On the same date, Sollecito Raffaele was interview, who completely confirmed Knox's statement with the only difference being that he found the water in the toilet clean, instead of what the girl had said However, when the Carabinieri arrived the water was found to be still dirty with faeces."

Lumumba enters into the case here:

"From her testimony Knox Amanda, on 6 November 2007, first at 01.45 and then at 05.45 told the investigating magistrate that on Thursday 1 November, at 20.30, while she found herself at the home of Sollecito Raffaele, received a message from her own mobile phone sent from Patrick, the owner of the Le Chic pub, where she was working, in which the aforementioned told her that on that night the pub would be closed and therefore she should not come to work, the aforementioned responded See You Later.

Then left the house telling Sollecito that she was going to work, while, on the contrary, she was at the basketball court of Piazza Grimana."

"Patrick went off with Meredith, about which she was vague, into the bedroom where they had sex and that she does not remember if Meredith was threatened first but said it was Patrick that killed her, saying that in that moment she did not know how to put into words that she heard Meredith scream out loudly and that, disturbed, she put her fingers in her ears, imagining what could have happened.

She also said that she was not sure whether Sollecito Raffaele was present but the following morning she found herself in his house in his bed. "

They are saying that of the 3 prints one was clear enough to compare to Solliceto's Nike and was found a match to the size 6 shoes.

Where the evidence got weird now is in the part of the report it describes an 8.5cm blade "flick knife" which is a switchblade.

But it was from a kitchen knife that the technicians claim they found DNA.

" flick knife with an 8.5cm blade, defined by the pathologist as compatible with the possible murder weapon. "

"Knox Amanda is concerned in the place of the murder, there are the statements from Sollecito who has lately confirmed that he was always together with her and in the objective circumstances that only the aforementioned had access to the keys of the apartment in via della Pergola and had therefore the ability to open the front door without leaving any signs of breakage."

Then Lumumba's information:
"In fact, while Lumumba was in the court hearing he confirmed that he had opened the pub in the afternoon of November 1 at around 1700 to 1800. The first receipts are shown to start from 22.29 and the suspect was not able to give any logical explanation for these circumstances, and was not able to furnish precise indications of the eventual clients who could attest to his presence in the pub before 22.29, and was not able to provide precise and therefore useful indications for the meeting with a person known only as Usi who would have come into the bar at 2000, or was able to give a telephone number or other identifying elements, despite calling him a friend. "

"justification does not hold up in as far as it does not explain how from 1800 to 2229 there were no receipts and these only started from 22.29 to closing time. More discrepancies about the closing time of the pub before its stated closing time came in the statements of one of its habitual clients, Vulcano Gerardo Pasquale, who was heard for the first time on November 7 2007, who said on the evening of the 1 November, towards 1900 that the pub was closed. "

[mafitz701]

The switchblade they took from Socellito was 6.5" in length and supposed to be "consistent with a match for the murder weapon. BUT then they come back with this:

""Police have told me they have a positive DNA match for Meredith Kercher and also Amanda Knox.

"This is not the knife that was found in Raffaele's possession when he was taken in for questioning last week."

According to Italian media reports, Knox's DNA is reported to have been found on the handle of the knife.

It is claimed Meredith's DNA was found on the blade of the kitchen knife which was around 20cm with a black handle."

A 20cm bladed knife is roughly about 18" long. How can a switchblade match the knife wounds but now the murder weapon is an 18" knife?

They found dna to Guede (yes I was spelling Guide in Italian and didn't even know it) in the form of a sweat drop on Meredith's purse along with blood drops inside the purse from Meredith.

[mafitz701]

The bra may have been badly contaminated. I don't understand why forensics waited until Nov.6 to gather the bra for testing, but now this:

"Guede's DNA has already been located on a piece of toilet paper at the murder scene and on a bloody handprint found on a pillow.

His DNA was also found on Meredith's bra, as was that of suspect Raffaele Sollecito, three other samples of DNA from "persons unknown" were also located."


Then testimony that was presented against Guede.

"In the document, Abukar Mohamed Barrow, known as “Momi”, accused Guede of drinking too much, taking drugs and trying to steal the handbags of young women during nights out on the town.

“Rudy was often drunk. I know he took cocaine. Often he was off his head with the drugs that he was taking. And when he was like that he would be a nuisance to girls, he’d block their path and try to hassle them. When we were in crowded places he stole their bags,” Barrow testified, according to excerpts of his evidence printed in the Italian press. "


I think the dna evidence had better be convincing, and they need to explain how the "murder weapon" could go from a 6.5" pocket knife to an 18" kitchen knife.

And the lack of plausible dna evidence that puts Amanda and Sollecito at the scene. The bra is likely going to get kicked because it really sounds like it was badly contaminated.

[gmr32]

There are two excellent pro-evidence, pro-victim websites about the Meredith Kercher case:

True Justice For Meredith Kercher:

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php

Perugia Murder File:

http://perugiamurderfile.freeforums.org/index.php

ALL the judges who have been involved in the case: Judge Claudia Matteini, the judges at the Italian Supreme Court, judge Massimo Riccarelli, and judge Paolo Micheli all thought there were serious indications of Amanda Knox's and Raffaele Sollecito’s guilt and refused to grant them bail on the grounds that they are mentally unstable, dangerous and could reoffend.

The case against Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito is formidable.

There are 13 pieces of forensic evidence that link Amanda and Raffaele to the crime, including Amanda's DNA on the handle of the knife found at Raffaele's apartment and Meredith's DNA on the blade, and Amanda's bare footprints set in Meredith's blood and Raffaele's DNA on Meredith's bloodied and cut bra.

Amanda and Raffaele knew precise details about Meredith's body which they could only have known if they had been present when Meredith was murdered. Amanda herself admitted she was present when Meredith was murdered in her handwritten note to the police on 6 November.

Amanda and Raffaele not only gave conflicting witness statements, but also gave completely different accounts of where they were, who they were with and what they were doing on the night of the murder.

In the light of the judges’ decisions so far and the forensic evidence which was independently confirmed as accurate and reliable, it looks extremely unlikely that Amanda and Raffaele will be found not guilty.

I can't say that I find anything as yet that disagrees with this statement. Someone pointed out I'm wrong about how long the jury is sequestered. Thanks for that. Although, perhaps the poster who originally posted the link could have sent it to the right place. Sorry n/t but I think that was way more than a snippet on the case and should have been posted where requested by admin.

And yes catdoc I agree with you again. I started to post on this thread maybe 2 weeks ago when there weren't many people around. I have posted links to sites outside the US and the UK but I find they have disappeared. I'm going to assume it's to keep things neat and tidy.

There have been long posts on here about where certain posters think about blood and DNA were found. Have the prosecution posted all the facts they will use on the web?

I'd really like to read if they have had. Please give me the links.

I'm waiting for Feb 6 (unless the It auths change the time frame again). I hope they won't.

[mafitz701]

All of what I found I found through links that were already provided and went off on my google searches using specific terms I was looking for.

You google Meredith Kercher "Judge Reports" Or Meredith Kercher "DNA Knife" and you get tons and tons of stuff.

Pretty easy but time consuming. I only did it here because I found so much sensational claim stuff that I wanted to find out why it would take over a year to even decide if they would have a trial.

The only thing I could not find was the video footage that the Italian press leaked.

However, I totally agree the evidence will come out at the trial, and I am dieing to find out what they didn't leak to the press, and how the knife and bra are explained.

The reasons the so-called "pro-victims" have parted ways is because "read the forums" they feel Mr. Huff has turned on them. In reality he is getting it from all sides. Which is another reason I have really become obsessed with this case.

He runs the truecrime web blog. http://www.truecrimeweblog.com/ and http://www.truecrimereport.com/

[gmr32]

I agree. I've gone to the links provided and h'm...

The real truth will come out at the trial.

We just have to wait.

[mafitz701]

Perugia Shock has some photos and reports that I had not seen.

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2008-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-08%3A00&updated-max=2009-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-08%3A00&max-results=50

He also has a lot of the Italian crime reports. and some stuff that he left untranslated.

Like the phone conversation in which Amanda was supposed to have confessed that she was there or did it.

But this was part of what I is eating me:

"Knife: NOT a match
As we have seen for the police The Knife doesn't fit in the print on the bed. And it was like this even in the first version of the study, the one with mistakes. The real mystery is why everyone understood the opposite.

So, not very effective the footprints. And the knife is not a match. Amanda and Raffaele have other problems to deal with. Two huge rocks to crumble. Raffaele's DNA on the bra and Meredith's DNA on the blade.
Stefanoni's study on Meredith's DNA is more than 150 pages without clear conclusions. That's why we don't hear a clear word about that.
We only hear that the picks are low, too low to be an evidence. But then Ghirga hypothesized that this DNA as well is the result of a contamination. And if he needs to justify it then maybe that DNA is really something"

And then at that same blog with him going through the reports, he talks about the dna to the unkowns found on the bra clasp that was not located until Dec. 16. The DNA was found to belong to two unknown females.

The footprints are even weirder. A footprint on the bathmat but no footprints leading up to it. So they cleaned the prints off of the floor but left the bathmat with a clear barefoot impression in blood on it.

The study was presented by the Unità Analisi Crimine Violento of scientific police at the beginning of the pre-trial more reading.

I think this man is Italian because he has a lot of broken English, but he has provided the information and seems to be objective, playing more the devil's advocate.

[gmr32]

I understand the blog. But, again I have to say.

The Italian authorities, for many people who would like to think so, are not idiots and are not incompetent.

Feb 6 is the next date. Let's see what happens then.

[catdoc]

Mafitz,,,I don't know which video you are referring to above that you could not find that was "leaked" but I posted a video called "Sex, Lies and the Murder of Merdith Kerscher". It's a 25 minute documentary with the crime scene, the investigators and the defendants. Some dialog is in Italian but most is English or dubbed. CW moved it to the links thread with my other posts..

[gmr32]

And catdoc they aren't here at the moment. And..

[n/t]

More interesting information about Italian Criminal Law:


Earlier both CBS News and The Associated Press incorrectly reported what had transpired during the preliminaries. These errors furnished a distorted impression of the case.

The Oct. 29, 2008 headline on CBS News.com blared: “No bail for U.S. murder suspect in Italy.”

That same day the AP reported, “American denied bail in Italy slaying.”

These headlines are false. In fact, in Italy, there is no provision for bail. Accused criminals are kept in prison while awaiting trial or they can be given in-house arrest. What the defense attorneys wanted, and what was denied, was to apply the pre-trial custody option of keeping the defendants at home instead of in prison.

Unlike American criminal law, accused criminals in Italy can remain in prison up to six years depending upon the severity of the crime. If there is no trial at the end of that period the suspect is released.

http://thebulletin.us/articles/2009/01/22/news/nation/doc49781f50a165d871453486.txt

[mafitz701]

He argues some of the evidence being circumstantial but in truth, in my opinion, he FINALLY answered questions on this case I have spent almost 24 hours straight researching, much to the dismay of my hubby and kids.

I am a big supporter of circumstantial evidence, moreso than witness testimony, confessions etc.. The reason I am is because what we like to call "circumstantial" is scientific evidence. And scientific evidence ends up being far more than "circumstantial".

I am not going to say if I think they are guilty or no. Because I have found far too much of the gossip mongering and "I would NEVER have sex with so many guys" "I know what a ****""He has no friends and wears a scarf around his head he must be guilty""they read manga comics so they did it""they got stoned and then decided to have an orgy and then murder her". Sorry its weak and it is why the justice system will always be vulnerable.

The evidence is telling. The photos Frank provided on his site and the reports he translated are telling. The knife was imprinted in blood on the bedsheet, the weapon to fit that imprint would have to be 10cm/8" in length. The knife is still a question mark.

The luminol testing revealed mopping patterns and revealed footprints. You can leave your footprints if you walk across a newly mopped floor and have them show up with luminol. The question is can you leave footprint impression on a floor in blood, then mop over them with bleach and have them still show up? Otherwise Amanda's footprints in the hallway between her and Meredith's bedroom are not evidence at all.

So what they do have is a clear footprint on a bathmat in Meredith's blood that they are saying matches Sollecito's right foot.

The way in which Meredith was killed they are saying had to be done by more than one person because, Meredith had bruises that look to be fingerprints on her elbows, she also had the same kind of fingertip bruises underneath her jawline. The theory is that Meredith was restrained while being stabbed in a leaning position.

They have Sollecito's DNA on the bra clasp found on Dec. 16, but they also have the DNA of two other unknown females, DNA from Amanda, and DNA from Rudy on that very same clasp.

The window was broken with no glass found on the outside, but the window is about 20' up, and they found that the miniblinds had been struck from the inside with the rock. If you are throwing a rock from 20' down at a window, you are not going to hit the inside of the blinds. You have to be inside the room to do that.

Every bedroom was rifled through, but Laura's laptop was left on her desk, and Amanda's room was the only one left untouched.

The cell phones there are unreliable in the pinging activity apparently, so a cell phone may ping in one location but it won't actually be at that location, which is why Lumumba's cell phone ping was dropped. I have never heard of this before, and it really freaks me out.

They do not have strong DNA evidence on Amanda, but they have her DNA on the handle of the 18" knife, but that knife was not the one that made the bloody impression on the bed. So how does Meredith's DNA get on an 18" knife that was not the knife that made the bloody impression on the bed?

What they are saying is that because they do have DNA and clear evidence that puts Sollecito at the scene that Amanda had to have been there too. I think Amanda is clearly to this day still enamoured with him. Would she follow him into hell, probably. She smiles up at him, tells him he looks good with his new haircut, even after she has spent the last year sitting in a prison cell.

I do not think she masterminded it. Guede is too aggressive for her to have been able to push him.

Hopefully the trial will not be delayed and even more will be revealed. Or better still, they find the knife that fits that bloody impression on the sheet.

[n/t]

JVM did a very short segment on her show last night:

TIM HAECK, NEWSTALK 97.3 KIRO-FM: Not too much to report from the start of the trial in terms of evidence. In fact, there wasn`t any evidence presented at all.

The first day of the trial was a chance for the judge to make some rulings on some things that are important to the people attending the trial, witnessing the trial. He ruled that the court will stay open, but he did close the courtroom to photography. These were a couple of issues that were important to the family of the Kercher family.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0901/21/ijvm.01.html

[gmr32]

n/t before I go and check out the link you're supposed to be posting on the link thread. But there's been another great post while I've been here so I'll go and read.

[n/t]

n/t before I go and check out the link you're supposed to be posting on the link thread. But there's been another great post while I've been here so I'll go and read.

This is the second time you're instructing on how I should post. I ignored your first comment but I decided enough is enough with this second attack.

I've been following cases for years and have been a member of this board for quite a while. This is not the first case and won't be the last. If you look at my posts, you can clearly see that I know what the heck I'm doing. I suggest you stay on topic. I usually don't report to the moderator but you're getting out of hand.

If you don't like how I post, ignore it, move on or report it and let the moderator decide.

Back to the topic.....

[n/t]

MaFitz, I think it's still very early to know what evidence the prosecution has. All we can go by is what's been presented to the media so far. I have no doubt that the prosecution has more than what's been leaked and will connect the dots at trial.

I must say that after reading your last post, I thought what if it was Amanda instructing Sollecito? What if he's the one who tried to cover up the crime for her. That's where his footprints come in.....

It'll be a very interesting trial when it finally gets going but it will be a long one. I heard they only meet 2 - 3 times a week. This could take forever. :unsure:

[gmr32]

This is the second time you're instructing on how I should post. I ignored your first comment but I decided enough is enough with this second attack.

I've been following cases for years and have been a member of this board for quite a while. This is not the first case and won't be the last. If you look at my posts, you can clearly see that I know what the heck I'm doing. I suggest you stay on topic. I usually don't report to the moderator but you're getting out of hand.

If you don't like how I post, ignore it, move on or report it and let the moderator decide.

Back to the topic.....

An attack? You really believe what I've posted is an attack?

I'm getting out of hand? You report me.

[mafitz701]

I must say that after reading your last post, I thought what if it was Amanda instructing Sollecito? What if he's the one who tried to cover up the crime for her. That's where his footprints come in.....

It'll be a very interesting trial when it finally gets going but it will be a long one. I heard they only meet 2 - 3 times a week. This could take forever. :unsure:


I actually believed that could be possible at first but it just seems so out of character for her. What the British press have done is take this case and turn it into a slugfest, but I watched all of the video footage of her, read what diary entries and responses she has given, and I just don't see a cold calculated young woman in her.

She has been found guilty because she had 7 sexual partners at the age of 20 in Italy in the two and a half months leading up to this. In my opinion I think people are really being extremely shallow and feigning self-rightous indignation about her.

She is the only one with a complete lack of evidence in the crime scene and around it. The only two things that look bad on her is the fact that the judge says because Sollecito said they were always together and evidence of him at the scene is found, then she must have been there. The thing that I think is incriminating is that her room was the only one not ransacked.

Frank quoted two of the judges as calling her and Sollecito "the murderers" at the preliminary hearing already, so for the sake of a lot of people who NEED her to guilty, I hope she really is. Because Perugia already has her convicted.

If the evidence does not put her in the crime scene at the trial, then I can honestly say that an injustice has been done. Because if she did do it and the Italians are doing a railroad on her to "prove they are not wrong", then you have the prosecutor (who is the ONLY one that believes it is some forced orgy gone to murder), and the case gets overturned at the appellate level, she will be free, and justice will not have been served.

If she was not even in the house when this occurred, really was stoned off her arse at her boyfriends place, then society has shown its complete lack of regard for human rights and human life once again and willfully sent this young woman to prison for being prettier, smarter, and happier than them. Because it is the public that will have destroyed this girl's life.

[mafitz701]

Cell phone evidence can be problematical anywhere. In the Hans Reiser murder case, for example, there was considerable confusion surrounding the cell phone evidence resulting from seeming inconsistencies in the testimony. This was never resolved, and some people would cling to one interpretation or another depending on their sympathies in the case. Ultimately, it didn't matter. We know Reiser was guilty because he eventually led police to the body. Those who thought the cell phone evidence would exonerate him were wrong.

No no. What happened in Italy was weird. A cell phone was reported by a tower to have been in such and such location when a phone call was made. I have never heard of phanton pinging before this case.

I have never seen this kind of phanton pinging in any case here before. And I can't make sense of it.

If the phone was moving, and passed by an intersection that that tower picks up and then goes back to another tower once through the intersection, that would make sense. But for a cell phone tower to pick up a ping from a phone that was sitting in the exact same location and not moving? Strange.

[dgfred]

I read the entire link you posted. The most interesting scenario for me was the 'money' one. Didn't someone make a call to a bank in England?
I thought Knox's parents were rich, would she have needed money that badly to steal it? Just a few questions so far.

[gmr32]

The attempted cell phone call to the London bank is interesting. And you're all correct. This case has lots of interesting turns. Personally, I don't need Knox to be found guilty. I believe she was there at the murder scene and she was involved. If the defense can produce evidence otherwise then good for her.

[mafitz701]

Yes Exactly, a cell tower reported Lumumba's cellphone was used near the crime scene at around 10p. But the cellphone was not moving at the time according to Italian authorities who said that a Swiss professor was with Lumumba at his bar at the time his cell phone was picked up by a tower closest to the crime scene being used.

So if that is true, it was a phanton ping. I don't know what else to call it. And like I said I have never heard of it happening before.

Both Amanda and Rafe had wealthy parents. Another thing Amanda and Rafe had only been dating for close to 7 days prior to the murder.

[angellaw]

As for as the argument that "young women simply don't cut throats" I hardly know what to say.....


I don't have time right now to find a link, but research Comm of PA vs (Lisa) Michelle Lambert, Tabitha Buck ...involved 2 young girls that slit the throat of another. There was also a guy Lawrence Yunkin involved but basically all he did was drive them there & pick them up...Lori Show is the name of the deceased.

[mafitz701]

The tower closest to the crime scene picked up a call from Lumumba's cell phone. BUT according to Lumumba his cell phone was at the pub with him and had not had any calls made from it.

The Italian Authorities dismissed the cell tower as a phantom call. Sorry not a ping. I guess it would ping if it passed by the tower and was not in use. But wouldn't it ping when the call was passed from one tower to the next?

[mafitz701]

Specifically the call was made through the tower at the location nearest the crime scene from Lumumba's phone.

But according to Italian LE the phone in question was with Lumumba at the pub.

Then they said that the two cell phones found in the garden of the neighboring house to the crime scene pinged to that tower location but one of the cell phones actually made a call from that same cell tower. About 20 minutes after the same tower picked up Lumumba's cell making a call.

I have never heard of it before but if reception is bad then it would make sense for a cell to bounce from one tower to the next to get the call through? Its a mountainous area, hello, Umbria anyone? But would the cell be able to bounce from one tower to the next if the cell was in the one location while the call was being placed? And not moving.
The web site Perugia Shock actually has the google map of all of the locations, including the pub in question.

[mafitz701]

What specifically what the problem with Reiser's cell phone? I didn't follow the case much. Was it the same thing?

[mafitz701]

I have wondered that too SlickLime, I think it is assumed they were wealthy because she went to a prep school, but why would they need to be doing fundraisers if they are wealthy?

[ShyGuy]

I have wondered that too SlickLime, I think it is assumed they were wealthy because she went to a prep school, but why would they need to be doing fundraisers if they are wealthy?

From what I have read her parents are upper middle class but far from wealthy. I grew up in Seattle and I am quite famliar with West Seattle, the part of Seattle where the Knox family lived.

It is a nice part of Seattle but hardly like the neigborhood where Bill Gates parents lived.

The school she attended was Seattle Prep which is a Catholic school and is not a toney, snotty private prep school.

She was attending the University of Washington, a public university located in Seattle.

It is a good university even if they did give me a BA degree.

If her parents had been wealthy they prolly would have sent her to a private college.

What Amanda's role, if any, in the murder was I won't even hazzard a guess. I think Amanda was prolly a nice girl who grew up in a good but overly strict Catholic family who basically became a whole new person when she got to Italy and for the first time she could live as she pleased.

[catdoc]

I have wondered about the money aspect also. The European press , in general give the impression that she is a wealthy, globe-trotting elitist. American press make her family sound more upper middle class. I think, especially in the little Italian town of Perulgia she is relatively well off, as are many of the foreign students. One of the links I posted says her father is a successful businessman, divorced from her mother who is a math teacher. Doesn't say what step dad does. Both sides of the pond say mom has been faithful to visit twice a week (as much as is allowed). And she has a leased apartment there for the trial. It is known that Amanda traveled to Europe more than once with her family before high school graduation. It has also been extensively reported that she has a very expensive defense team. I'm sure all of this would strain all but the wealthiest families.

If my child were arrested in Italy I would not be able to visit him regularly if at all and would not be able to attend a year long trial.

I'm glad she has the financial advantage of a good defense team. This way, if she did this horrible crime and is convicted maybe there won't be an international incident over her being "railroaded".

[dgfred]

Has anyone any theories why one cell phone shows someone tried to call the bank in England and did not use the right area code or something?

[mafitz701]

Whoever made the call to Meredith's bank didn't punch in the country code before dialing the number.

I couldn't find anything to indicate the phone had been dusted for prints nor anything that reports evidence found on the phone.

They possibly think it was part of the burgulary ruse.

[aubrey04]

I didn't realize this case was so big over there. On Jane Velez-Mitchell's show -- a reporter said that it is big tabloid news.. That Amanda Knox is in the tabloids daily there.. The reporter discussing it said due to Amanda's looks and the fact that she's an American has made this story very tantalizing to the European press.

[dgfred]

Whoever made the call to Meredith's bank didn't punch in the country code before dialing the number.

I couldn't find anything to indicate the phone had been dusted for prints nor anything that reports evidence found on the phone.

They possibly think it was part of the burgulary ruse.

So do you think it was a ruse, or do you think they actually had ideas of stealing money?

[mafitz701]

To be honest with you I have given up on trying to figure this stuff out. Each time you go and research one area more questions and weird clues pop up. Things that are open with no answers in sight.

Example. Lumumba's cell phone was replaced the day after the murder. No reasons why, he just replaced it. The only thing that puts him in the pub whose own business receipts do not show him doing business until after 11pm that night, is a friend in the form of a Swiss Professor that he had known for years. But it was enough that the Italian LE dropped the case against him.

You have a tower nearest the crime scene placing a call from his cell phone. But him saying his cell phone was in the pub with him and not near the crime scene.

Then you have first a pocket knife found on Sollecito that the ME says he believes is the murder weapon. It was a 3.34" pocket knife. But then the ME changes the murder weapon between November 02 and November 06 to a 7.8" kitchen knife that was found in Sollecito's apartment.

Then LE found a very clear bloody knife impression on a bedsheet on Meredith's bed. Neither one of the "murder weapons" fits the bloody knife impression. They never found the knife or a knife that fit it.

Then you have the stupid media reporting that Meredith was stabbed three times in the neck, but it turns out she was not stabbed 3 times, she was nicked several times in the throat and stabbed once very deeply in the throat. It was the fatal wound that led to her not only choking on her own blood but bleeding to death for over an hour. This was a horrible tortorous death for this young woman.

But because the ME kepts saying her carotid artery was not cut, I assumed she suffered stab wounds to either the right or left side of her neck. If she is stabbed in the throat of course the carotid will not be cut!

Then they found evidence that whoever inflicted the fatal stab wound actually tried to render aid, which indicates they were dumb enough to think they could stab someone in the throat (windpipe, hyoid bone and all) and not kill her. The wound was deep enough that her hyoid bone was fractured from the blow, but they didn't do a tool mark evaluation on the bones the blade would have left cut marks on.

Guede they charged and convicted of homicide. Amanda and Sollecito they charged with sexual assault and homicide. Guede's dna was found via mucosal cells inside the vaginal canal. They found vaginal bruising as well. But they didnt' think this coupled with the fact that she was murdered, was enough to convict Guede for sexual assault and homicide.

Then they have a partial bloody footprint, upper part of the foot, on a plush bathmat. They say they matched this footprint up to Sollecito by comparison of his right foot. They have 3 partial shoe prints covered in blood in the bedroom that Meredith was found in. They matched the tread to tread on a pair of shoes owned by Sollecito. The problem is they did not do any comparison of Guede's shoes to rule him out as a contributor.

The window is another issue now. The windows are like double doors, you have two long narrow windows that open in functioning just like double doors do. Then you have two shutters that fit over each half of the window, the shutters are on the inside, then you have another pair of dark green shutters on the outside. One of the windows was broken, not broken out like someone would want to make it look like someone had tried to come in, it was just broken. They think the killer opened the one half of the window and broke it by throwing a large rock at it in the effort to make it look like a burglary. However, the shutter on that same window was found to have a fresh dent on the side that faces into the room, not the side that faced the window. And the dent was found to have been consistent with the rock having been thrown at it.

So I finally found the video footage that the tabloids were saying was of Meredith's corpse and made headlines back on April 1 2008. The video is in Italian but is of the crime scene, and you can see Meredith's foot underneath the duvet. The kitchen, the living room, and all of the bedrooms. The reason the Italian news ran the footage was because they were questioning the way the scene was processed. In that same footage you can see the sides of the cottage. The window that was broken was 20' off the ground roughly and underneath it were large tall bushes.

It was not even logical to select this particular window because if you watch the footage, you can see other windows to the upperfloor apartment that were accessible via a cement walkway that wound down the sides of the cottage. Some of the windows had bars on them, but not all.

So why this particular window? Why was it just broken, but not enough to even suggest that someone other than a small child had crawled through it? Why was the shutter dented from the inside of the room if the window was opened into the room and the rock hurled at it? The shutter just opened like a door over the window, if the window was open it would have been close enough to the shutter to mark the shutter side facing the window?

So did they consider the window had been broken for another reason other than to stage the crime scene?

The kitchen and living room were a mess. Not a trashy kind of mess, just normal disarray from people not putting things away after they had used them. There was food and dishes on the counter in the kitchen etc.. But they said these rooms had been cleaned?

[mafitz701]

Why wasn't the cell phone used to dial the number to the bank of England dusted for prints? It was Filomena's phone, so it would not have had Meredith's local bank phone number programmed into it. Had Meredith previousely called her bank from that phone, then the call would have included the country code. So, how did they get the number for Meredith's bank? Why wouldn't they have the intelligence to dial a country code? Its no different than in the US when we call out to another state we automatically dial the area code. Who used the phone to dial Meredith's bank?

LE pulled the SIMS cards out of both phones, one of the phones was Meredith's but Meredith's phone was not working, which is why she borrowed Filomena's phone that day. So why didn't LE dust the phones for prints? Swab them for DNA? They had the sense to check the SIMS cards but not to check for prints and dna?

Then they (LE) are saying that the reason they have of Amanda at the scene was because she mopped the floor, but that they found her footprint on that mopped floor in the hallway between her and Meredith's bedrooms? What does that mean? Luminol testing showed that the floor had been mopped, you could see the mopping patterns, but it doesn't show when the floor was mopped. The footprint is of the top pad of the foot and tips of toes. But because it was on a flat surface, they should be able to make out the groove pattern in the print. But because they do not say anything in their report about smelling bleach? They only say that they luminoled the floor and found a footprint in the floor along with wiping patterns to indicate the floor had been mopped.

The bleach bottles they found at the scene were all nearly full. The bleach bottle they found at Sollecito's had been opened, but it was almost completely full. However, they do not say what this means? How much was used from the bottles? A litre? A millilitre? What is nearly full?

They found no blood at all on any of Sollecito's sneakers, they actually checked. But they made no record of having checked Guede's sneakers for blood evidence? No comparison patterns to rule out other shoes.

They have witnesses who say they saw Amanda and Sollecito, but Frank Sfarzo the journalist who runs PerugiaShock got the CCTV footage of where these witnesses were supposed to have seen Amanda and Sollecito. The views in the locations was so obstructed and in those that would have had a clear view the cctv footage from that night shows no one, not even the witness in question. But these witnesses are admitted as evidence.

Then they said that the clothes Amanda was wearing that night were "missing", but those same clothes were found in the crime scene apartment on her bed.

The whole case is baffling.

If the LE had not just taken what could have been a simple case of rape/homicide and just collected all of the evidence, and then built their motive off of what they found, it would make more sense as to what happened.

For example, Amanda's room was the ONLY bedroom that had not been gone through. They have Amanda claiming to have gone back to the apartment the morning of Nov. 2, taking a shower in the larger bathroom (where you can give her the benefit of the doubt, very little blood was found), but then she goes into the smaller bathroom used by Meredith, and finds "drops of blood" but freaks out because someone pooped in the toilet and did not flush it? I posted the crime scene photo of Meredith's bathroom. It was COVERED in blood. Yet she goes into that bathroom and freaks out because she finds poop in the toilet?

I don't think she was there when it happened, at least not by what has been presented. But I really believe that she knew something was going to happen, and knew after the fact that Meredith was killed. It is the only explanation I can find for why she would not be freaked out over the bloody bathroom. We have seen similar on the threads before, by a suspect who wanted to distance himself from the crime, and ended up total avoiding the obvious and obsessing over the trivial. She then does not call police, she runs back to Sollecito's apartment instead? Who finds a blood covered bathroom scene and does not at least call police on the way to safety?

[mafitz701]

She goes to Sollecito's apartment to tell him "oh my god its really true", "what are we going to do". Maybe she did spend the night so stoned she lost track of him. Maybe they knew something was going to happen, someone was going to attack Meredith, but didn't plan on her being killed. Maybe Sollecito was actually involved, maybe he decided Meredith was uptight and thought she was too good for everyone because she didn't want him hanging out at the apartment, maybe he was there, but Amanda didn't want to believe he could have done something like this. So instead she calls Sollecito and runs to his apartment, "what happened" "what did you do" "did you do it" "oh my god what did you guys do" "what are we going to do now".

Her false confessions would be easy to explain except for one thing, she did what guilty people do when they are trying to distance themselves from the crime. She found it odd that someone had used the toilet and not flushed in a bathroom that was covered in blood. She then tells police that she was in the kitchen and Lumumba went into Meredith's bedroom and she heard screams.

[mafitz701]

I think Lumumba was a part of the homicide. I think LE have so botched this case that they will never be able to find out exactly what happened.

And I honestly wasn't convinced of Amanda's guilt, until I kept researching everything they had reported.

My major issue now is this, that young woman died because it took her over an hour to fight for breath in lungs that were filling with her own blood. Her own ability to fight for her life is further hindered by the massive loss of blood from her wound. Yet her life meant so little to Italy, and to those that investigated her murder, that people who were very likely involved, will never be held accountable. And people who were found to have been involved may well go free. The Italian LE seem to think no more of Meredith's life than those that took her life. And that makes me very mad.

Guede is known by the evidence to have been the one to sexually assault Meredith. He is in prison for her homicide, which is fine, he likely is the one that wielded the knife that killed her. But he DID sexually assault her. He isn't the smartest tool in the shed. It would make sense to me that he would be stupid enough to prick her neck a few times to control her, and then stab her to show he was serious but be lacking in the basic anatomy of a person's neck to not know that if you stab someone in their windpipe at a downward angle, you are going to kill them. He defecated at the crime scene, so the whole situation had enough of an impact on his emotional state that he could not control his physical reaction to it. But he was not accustomed to flushing toilets enough that it would have been second nature for him to flush. Yet his instinct was to find a toilet, instead of going on the floor somewhere, but flushing no.

He was likely the one that attempted to call Meredith's bank but be ignorant enough not to think to put in the country code first. Students who travel the world, on the otherhand are accustomed to calling their banks and punching in area codes and country codes. Because they have to do it for themselves.

A person with education would think before trying to scare someone by stabbing into their windpipe. Unless they were aiming to kill them. But in Meredith's case, someone stabbed her windpipe, and then tried to help her. They found the evidence of this at the scene and on her body. So, someone is going "oh my god I am so sorry" "what do i do", but they have just raped this girl, and calling the police is not going to be an option.

A person with half a brain would open a window shutter at the very least to expose the window they were planning to break. They would not throw a rock at a shuttered window. Even in a panic.

Could Guede have been set up to do this and then called Sollecito and Amanda when he ended up getting carried away and murdering Meredith? It could have happened that way. And could explain why Sollecito's shoe prints (if they are his) were found at the one small area of the bedroom but not up around the body. But then why didn't he attempt to wipe them? The footprints leading up to the bathmat were missing. But there was the one barefoot on the bathmat. If Sollecito was going to have the sense to wipe his barefoot trail to the bathmat, why didn't he take the bathmat? It would have been easy to hide on his person and he could have easily disposed of it.

It turns out right behind the cottage there is a cliff. LE NEVER searched the side of the cliff for evidence. It would have made sense to toss a murder weapon down the cliff, throw the cell phones down the cliff, the bathmat, shoes, bloody clothes.

But instead of this, the bathmat was left at the scene, the cell phones were thrown over a wall to the yard next door to the cottage. And while there is a trail of activity from Amanda and Sollecito via internet and witness testimony, Guede is not seen until he shows up at 0400 at a disco.

If those are Sollecito's shoe prints, then he was there. Italian police botched the bra evidence. The bra was covered in blood on the strap and some on the front, yet they are saying she was not wearing the bra when she was attacked. The bra clasp was found on Dec. 16 under Meredith's bed. The murder happened on the night of November 01, the scene was processed on Nov. 2. Over a month goes by before the clasp is found? Because of that any evidence that could have been on the clasp is suspect.

What if Sollecito is completly innocent? What if it was JUST Amanda that got together with Guede and Lumumba to do this crime? What if when Guede ended up killing Meredith Amanda then turned to Sollecito?

Or what if it was Sollecito and not Amanda? What if Sollecito was mad because Meredith didn't like him hanging around? Maybe she got the creeps from him or he flirted with her? But then he got together with Lumumba and Guede?

Or worse yet, what if Guede met someone that partnered with him to break into the apartment. Guede bragged to the guy that Amanda was leaving her keys to the apartment where he could get to them just so he could get in and teach this snob a lesson.

The problem is that LE and the ME have created more questions on this case than they have answered. They did not follow up on leads to see where they would take them, they did not process the scene good enough to have found the clasp to the bra under the bed right next to the body, they never answered why Lumumba got a new cell phone on November 2, they did not process the cell phones that were thrown into the garden next door, they just assumed a whole bunch and dismissed key evidence.

They have no murder weapon, so they go and grab a knife from a convenient location and pass it off as the murder weapon. They never explain how blood evidence from Meredith got into the second bathroom. They just claim it was part of the clean up. Even though had they examined that lead further it might have actually taken them with a certainty to another suspect. They did not process for the sake of elimination evidence that would have made what evidence they do have hold up in court under cross examination.

So this case is very likely not over for Meredith's family, and because of this, they are going to have to relive her last moments on earth over and over and over again.

I think there is enough evidence to point to Amanda's guilt, but in truth because of the way they investigated this case, we may never know. Sollecito could be a future serial killer, he may get off because the evidence against him is so weak and can be argued effectively that it was fabricated, that he may get off and go on to kill again. Lumumba may indeed be as guilty as sin, he may have actually been the one to leave the bruises on Meredith's arms. He may go on to kill again.

And the only one to really pay for this crime is a young woman with her mother's wide expressive eyes, an eye on the future, who now gets to spend eternity laying in a box in the cold hard earth.

[cloe23]

I didn't realize this case was so big over there. On Jane Velez-Mitchell's show -- a reporter said that it is big tabloid news.. That Amanda Knox is in the tabloids daily there.. The reporter discussing it said due to Amanda's looks and the fact that she's an American has made this story very tantalizing to the European press.

Hi aburey,
I stared stocking this case last summer. I heard or read about it and googled it. There are even Amanda's jail house journals out there somewhere that LE took from her cell. The case if very sad, like any other it didn't need to happen.

[kellabeck]

What is with the Italian system which has such sporadic court sessions?? This trial will last longer than the Simpson murder trial.

[lunchlady]

Yo, mafitz:

Wow, I'm impressed with how carefully you've thought about this case and the evidence so far.
It's all confusing for sure. I hope that LE incompetence and possibly even corruption don't lead to a conviction for innocent people. But the evidence makes me think that everyone was involved somehow.

My impression of the Italian police is that they spend their day drinking coffee and smoking cigarettes, with an occasional complimentary drinkiepoo from the the local bars. In small towns everyone shows up at the "bar" and has a roll, coffee, and so on, and I kept seeing the police getting free alcoholic drinks even in the AM. Part of the protection program apparently. The idea it gave me is that they spend their day trying to get and maintain the perfect balance between the caffeine, nicotine, and alcohol. Perugia is not so small but the neighborhoods often have the same feeling as a separate small town.
I've seen cops getting freebies in the US also, but it seemed to be standard operating procedure in Italy. Maybe Lumumba is especially generous in that respect and so got a little timely ignoring with respect to his cell phone placement and alibis.

The neck injury could have been caused by the combination of a knife at her throat and her struggling. Oops. But even if they didn't mean to kill her when the crime was being planned no one wanted to risk discovery by getting her medical assistance once her throat was cut. Which makes me think they had intended to kill her, but not until the fun was over.
The friction between Meredith and Amanda is interesting. Amanda was excited and addled by drugs, new love, and her own recent sexual adventurism. Meredith putting any crimp on that probably made Amanda furious. Even if she didn't participate in the planning and execution of the crime she possibly didn't feel like helping protect Meredith. Or was willing to try and cover it up once it happened.

[Mandymax]

It's a tough case to follow, at least for me, because Italian processes are different from those of the US, so it's hard for me to understand the hows and whys and significances of things. I personally doubt Amanda's innocence based upon plain old common sense: 1) her story changed from "I wasn't there!" to "Oh, yeah, now I remember I was," and 2) her lack of panic at the sight of the bloody bathroom. These two facts alone are enough to convince me that she was indeed involved in some way. I don't believe she actually killed Meredith, but I believe she was fully aware it was going on and did nothing to stop it - either that, or she knew about it after the fact and did nothing to help the investigation.

As always, my own opinion.

[joolz]

(snipped)
My impression of the Italian police is that they spend their day drinking coffee and smoking cigarettes, with an occasional complimentary drinkiepoo from the the local bars. In small towns everyone shows up at the "bar" and has a roll, coffee, and so on, and I kept seeing the police getting free alcoholic drinks even in the AM. Part of the protection program apparently. The idea it gave me is that they spend their day trying to get and maintain the perfect balance between the caffeine, nicotine, and alcohol. Perugia is not so small but the neighborhoods often have the same feeling as a separate small town.
I've seen cops getting freebies in the US also, but it seemed to be standard operating procedure in Italy. Maybe Lumumba is especially generous in that respect and so got a little timely ignoring with respect to his cell phone placement and alibis.
.


Are you kidding? Have you ever been to Italy? The country that spawned the mob and the Red Brigades?

The police in Rome are like the military - they walk around with semi-automatic rifles and they are incredibly vigilant and deadly serious. And while the attitude in the smaller cities like Perugia may look relaxed to you, I'm sure they are just as serious as their big city counterparts. jmo

[lunchlady]

Are you kidding? Have you ever been to Italy? The country that spawned the mob and the Red Brigades?

The police in Rome are like the military - they walk around with semi-automatic rifles and they are incredibly vigilant and deadly serious. And while the attitude in the smaller cities like Perugia may look relaxed to you, I'm sure they are just as serious as their big city counterparts. jmo

Yes, I've been to Italy several times, and yes I've also seen the visibly armed guys, especially in the airports and even in the train stations. But I've also seen plenty of the type I described before.

[dgfred]

Nice posts mrs lady of the lunch. Amanda's behaviour is quite puzzling.

[cloe23]

I am watching Nancy Grace show right now. If there is a crime scene video and Amanda's aunt is aware of it(she sounded as if she has seen it) So where is it?
Any US attorney's who are certified to practice in Italy, have they check this out? If not they need to take the next plane out.
JMOO

[catdoc]

Nice posts mrs lady of the lunch. Amanda's behaviour is quite puzzling.

Agreed but I will go further. There is no innocent explanation for Amanda's behavior.

Railroaded???GMAB!!.....I'll wait for the defense to show me how she could possibly NOT be guilty.

[cloe23]

Agreed but I will go further. There is no innocent explanation for Amanda's behavior.

Railroaded???GMAB!!.....I'll wait for the defense to show me how she could possibly NOT be guilty.

ITA I feel uncomfortable about my reads of what the court system is like in other country's. I always get sucked in by family members on TH shows.
I was certainly all in favor of NE's trial and conviction.

[Xainia]

The wild, raunchy past of Foxy Knoxy (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-498853/The-wild-raunchy-past-Foxy-Knoxy.html)

Gangs of students, high on drink and drugs, were hurling rocks into the road. Cars were swerving to avoid them. Debris littered the road. It was mayhem.

Fearing reprisals, neighbours who had called the police refused to give their names. The police officer called for back-up as the youths began throwing rocks at the windows of houses on the neat, tree-lined streets.

Eventually, after reinforcements had arrived, the students calmed down. Police made only one arrest: the person they held responsible for the party and the disorder.

Her name? Amanda Knox, or, as she prefers to be known, Foxy Knoxy.
According to the court records, the first officer on the scene, Patrolman Bender, said the only excuse that Knox gave for her behaviour was that she was moving abroad.

Yet this was not a simple case of mischief at a party getting out of hand: according to police sources, it is rare for a party incident involving a 20 year-old to end up in court unless police believe a serious crime has been committed.

Those present that night say the scenes on the street were as nothing compared to what was going on inside Knox's rented house, less than a mile from where she studied English, German and Italian amid the calm, regulated life at one of America's greatest universities.

It was, according to one party guest, "bedlam, with drink, drugs and bodies everywhere.

"Some people were naked inside the bedrooms.

"There were people draped over each other.

"I've been to a lot of student parties in my time, but I've never been to a party like that.

"Everyone just wanted to get drunk, get high and get laid. There was also a lot of violence because everyone was so pumped up.

Considering there are court records then there has to be some truth to this article.

[cloe23]

:confused:

What can a US attorney do for Amanda Knox?

Make me feel better, safer when I travel abroad?.:blushing:
I've made my mind up on this case months ago.
Sorry about the confusion, not my intent.

Amanda took the rent money from her roommate Meredith before this all came down, imo. Then once the confrontation between Meredith and Amanda took place, Amanda set up a rape to be performed by the local bar owner,(Who clearly was interested). The kicker here is that Amanda and Raffaele wanted and did part take in it. I am also curious if Rudy Guede's adopted parents still disown him?

[n/t]

I am watching Nancy Grace show right now. If there is a crime scene video and Amanda's aunt is aware of it(she sounded as if she has seen it) So where is it?
Any US attorney's who are certified to practice in Italy, have they check this out? If not they need to take the next plane out.
JMOO

Hi cloe,

I was just about to post the same question about the video. I haven't seen it. How would her aunt have access to the video? It sounded like NG hadn't seen it either....here is what was said for those who didn't watch NG.

====

GRACE: He is also charged in the murder. Now there`s surveillance video, apparently, of her near her place, near the murder scene that night.

HUFF: No, actually there isn`t. There`s video that shows somebody, but it`s not been confirmed that that`s Amanda.

GRACE: Do police say it`s Amanda?

HUFF: They`re guessing.

GRACE: They`re guessing. OK. Then in your understanding, Miss Huff -- everyone, with me, the aunt of Amanda Knox -- what is their evidence against Amanda?

HUFF: They simply don`t have any evidence against Amanda. There is nothing, there`s lots of guesses. There`s theories, there`s stories.

GRACE: OK.

HUFF: Nothing physical.


http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0901/29/ng.01.html

[n/t]

It's a tough case to follow, at least for me, because Italian processes are different from those of the US, so it's hard for me to understand the hows and whys and significances of things. I personally doubt Amanda's innocence based upon plain old common sense: 1) her story changed from "I wasn't there!" to "Oh, yeah, now I remember I was," and 2) her lack of panic at the sight of the bloody bathroom. These two facts alone are enough to convince me that she was indeed involved in some way. I don't believe she actually killed Meredith, but I believe she was fully aware it was going on and did nothing to stop it - either that, or she knew about it after the fact and did nothing to help the investigation.

As always, my own opinion.

I agree. Very tough case to follow considering we're only getting bits and pieces of what is real evidence....or not.

I found this very interesting...from Nancy Grace show last night. It doesn't make any sense to me that the police would ask Amanda <paraphrasing> if she saw the crime what would she do and she said she would cover her ears? Even if true, isn't it an odd thing to say? Wouldn't someone run and call for help or call the police? Here is what was said:

GRACE: Miss Huff, what do you make of police stating that she told them, first of all, and correct me if my facts are not -- are not what yours are, I`m getting this from the Italian authorities, that she told them she was there in the apartment, in the cottage when her roommate began screaming and she put her hands over her ears, then later said that was actually a vision or a dream that she had had.

HUFF: Yes, this is again a case of someone not interpreting correctly. She made the statement -- she was asked to imagine what she would do if she was there during the time and she would have heard Meredith in the room with someone else, what would she have done if she would have heard them in there and at that point it was just, was a consensual sex or not and she said wow, if I would have heard my roommate in there with someone else, as I was there, I might have covered my ears.

It was something she was asked to imagine. It was not her statement saying that that`s what happened.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0901/29/ng.01.html

[dgfred]

Very complicated and confusing this case???

[cloe23]

It's a tough case to follow, at least for me, because Italian processes are different from those of the US, so it's hard for me to understand the hows and whys and significances of things. I personally doubt Amanda's innocence based upon plain old common sense: 1) her story changed from "I wasn't there!" to "Oh, yeah, now I remember I was," and 2) her lack of panic at the sight of the bloody bathroom. These two facts alone are enough to convince me that she was indeed involved in some way. I don't believe she actually killed Meredith, but I believe she was fully aware it was going on and did nothing to stop it - either that, or she knew about it after the fact and did nothing to help the investigation.

As always, my own opinion.

Another troubling thing is how 'bleached' the bathroom was.
Hence the no evidence is evidence therory.
I remember seeing a bloody foot print in Meredith's bedroom that belonged to the shoe of Raffaele as well as another shoe print that appeared to belong to a women 's high heal pump.(not Amanda's size)

I will dig deeper for links tonight.
Correct me please if I am wrong and sorry if this information has already been hashed out.

[joolz]

The wild, raunchy past of Foxy Knoxy (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-498853/The-wild-raunchy-past-Foxy-Knoxy.html)



Considering there are court records then there has to be some truth to this article.


The Seattle stuff is amazing, since she has been portrayed as pure as the driven snow and never, ever in trouble in her life until she went abroad. If the Daily Mail got it right, Knox sure doesn't sound like an innocent little coed to me. That, of course, doesn't in any way make her a killer, but it's going to be very interesting to see just how the spinning goes. jmo

[dgfred]

Another troubling thing is how 'bleached' the bathroom was.
Hence the no evidence is evidence therory.
I remember seeing a bloody foot print in Meredith's bedroom that belonged to the shoe of Raffaele as well as another shoe print that appeared to belong to a women 's high heal pump.(not Amanda's size)

I will dig deeper for links tonight.
Correct me please if I am wrong and sorry if this information has already been hashed out.

I don't think the shoe print matched any of Raf's shoes.

Haven't heard about the high heal pump print.

You would think they could 'clean up' that surveillance tape showing them both, but I don't know. That would be giant evidence since they
said they were not out.

[dgfred]

JMO.... The only witness in this whole trial who can convict or exonerate them is the guy (Guede?) who has already been convicted of the crime. He has nothing to gain or lose by telling the truth.

What did Guede say in his trial about Knox-Solecito involvement?

I think he claimed he had consensual sex with her, then someone (Amanda and Raf?) killed her after that.

[dgfred]

Nothing to gain? Why not? My understanding is that Guede can appeal and he can become eligible for parole.

I don't think any of suspects in this case have much credibility.

You are right, almost zero. Last night on Greta they were disgusted that the LE there had not interviewed ANYONE from the apt complex with a clear view of the crime house. Also each of Amanda's relatives
stated in no uncertain terms that there was NO evidence against Amanda, and any bits they had were just reaches.

[dgfred]

Frankly, I don't put a lot of faith in what her family says about the case against Amanda Knox. What else would they say, except that Amanda is just a victim of the system?

Nancy Grace and Greta have a hard time keeping facts straight, too.

Oh I agree with all you say, I was just letting it be known what was said last night.

[catdoc]

Oh I agree with all you say, I was just letting it be known what was said last night.

It seems to me the family has been putting up a huge media propaganda campaign for at least a year. Keeping that up is the reason for the "donations" efforts.

Joe Tacopina even went over there and created a terrible ruckus about the incompetence of Italian LE and CSI and about Amanda's "railroading". Don't know if the family paid for that or if he was just media grabbing. He actually made things so much worse for Amanda that the DEFENSE asked him to shut up and leave.

[cloe23]

I don't think the shoe print matched any of Raf's shoes.

Haven't heard about the high heal pump print.

You would think they could 'clean up' that surveillance tape showing them both, but I don't know. That would be giant evidence since they
said they were not out.

I stand corrected:biggrin:
Was it Amanda's shoe print?
I admit I checked this case out out months ago, trust me I am not trying to spin anything here. Only going by my past memory.
As for giant evidence, they have it. JMO

[cloe23]

I don't think the shoe print matched any of Raf's shoes.

Haven't heard about the high heal pump print.

You would think they could 'clean up' that surveillance tape showing them both, but I don't know. That would be giant evidence since they
said they were not out.

Ok, I just pulled up a link that said that the print was from a bare foot and that CSI needed to use luminal to lift.
Nothing about the pump shoe or any shoe for that matter.
I have lost my mind, sorry for the confusion.
Thanks for the correction.

So am I out of line with the idea that the bar/pub owner where Meredith worked called and told her not to come in to work that night?
And that Amanda called Rudy and said she's home now(paraphrasing)

Stupid question... Who owed the bar? Rudy G? Correct?

[cloe23]

I think he claimed he had consensual sex with her, then someone (Amanda and Raf?) killed her after that.

What a defence that is. Can't see Meredith or anyone asking Guede to please go throw her tampon away,(Hence his DNA on it) then they had sex, he left, dropping his cell phone in the neighbors garden. No harm.
What ever, agree?

[cloe23]

Another aspect I am unclear on is what is meant by "ping." A cell phone which is powered on will communicate with more than one tower, and establish a connection with one of them to make (or receive) a call. Was a call from Lumumba's phone serviced by the tower nearest the crime scene, or did the tower merely note the presence of the phone somewhere within range?

How far was the bar from the tower in question and where are all of the other towers in the vicinity? A cell phone does not necessarily use the closest tower, it uses the one with which the best connection can be established.

My point is that there are a lot of details needed to fully document what was going on with the phone. Being a detail person myself, I would not try to understand the problem without knowing all of the relevant details.


IIRC Lumumba was shooting hoops close to the crime scene/flat,
he was used as a scape goat. His basketball behavior was habitual.
JMO

[cloe23]

Do you know anything about the phone call to Kercher's bank in the UK?

I haven't really tried to follow this case until recently. There wasn't enough info available. Seems like more are taking an interest and posting.

Thanks for any info you can remember.

Theory. Rudy Guede was the one that fled to his home at Ivory coast. IIRC. Guede needed money to flea..... He may have been given a incorrect number from his cohorts. Just a thought. JMO

[cloe23]

BTW..... Amanda Knox emailed her family about the murder of her flat/roomate before the murder even took place.IIRC
That is hard evidence.(If correct) IMO

[joolz]

BTW..... Amanda Knox emailed her family about the murder of her flat/roomate before the murder even took place.IIRC
That is hard evidence.(If correct) IMO


Do you remember where you read/heard that Cloe? That's one I haven't heard, but if it's true, what a damning piece of evidence! jmo

[cloe23]

Do you remember where you read/heard that Cloe? That's one I haven't heard, but if it's true, what a damning piece of evidence! jmo

I firmly believe it is true. Amanda did this and LE are aware of it. Sorry no link, I typically goggle stuff and take it all in.
Amanda's family knows this too, how could they not? They received the message. It was addressed to Amanda's mother.
Just a theory, BTW.

[cloe23]

The murder was planned?:confused:

I think so? Meredith was mad a Amanda over money and sharing the expense of the flat they rented. Amanda was doing drugs for most likely the first time in her life.
Meredith was sposed to work that night but her boss (who I thought) was Rudy? called and said he didn't need her to come in that night. So Meredith went to a friends and watched a movie. After she got home is when allegedly Amanda either called or texed Rudy and said that Meredith was home now. Amanda left the door unlocked.
I wish I had all the links that I book marked last spring/summer, my computer crashed and I am using another one now.
So I can only suggest theory.
I wont be back online again till most likely Sun or Mon as we are moving.
(Bye for now) IMO this is one fascinating case.

[Xainia]

The Seattle stuff is amazing, since she has been portrayed as pure as the driven snow and never, ever in trouble in her life until she went abroad. If the Daily Mail got it right, Knox sure doesn't sound like an innocent little coed to me. That, of course, doesn't in any way make her a killer, but it's going to be very interesting to see just how the spinning goes. jmo

I don't know if the information is true or not. I lean towards truth because the article states they got information from court records.

IF true not coming out with this information and painting Amanda as 'pure and innocent' does her more harm then good imo

These things always get found out.

[nsm]

I've been following this case also. Somehow, I just cant see her getting out of this. The judge and the prosecution in Italy seems to have their mind made up. Its nice to travel and see new places, but sometimes I think how much we have in the good ole USA and maybe its better to stay here. Other countries have rules and customs that are so different. I think of Natalie Holloway. I just dont see a good outcome for this girl. I dont know if she did it or not, but the bottom line is a girl is dead and someone had to do it.

[Aradia5]

From Satanic Rite to she owed money? When does this trial start? I can't find a date. Sorry if it has already been posted.

[gmr32]

It's all the changes to their stories (by Knox and Sollecito) that can make this case confusing to follow. I don't buy the story is Knox is an innocent young girl being set up by Italian LE and prosecution. Maybe if she kept the same story from the start and didn't tell the world about her 'sexual' experiences and how men come on to her, then I might find the 'innocent girl from Seattle' line easier to swallow.

I'm thinking of 2 scenarios. First, the sexual romp was planned for Knox, Guede and Sollecito. (Take a little dope, have a 3some). Meredith comes home unexpectedly, gets upset, maybe they ask her to have some dope, join in. She refuses, things get ugly.

Second. Meredith is asked to join, agrees then backs out. Same ending.

I'd be interested to hear other's opinions about what could have happened that night.

But I do think that Knox was there and that she was involved.

[Aradia5]

I think he claimed he had consensual sex with her, then someone (Amanda and Raf?) killed her after that.

When did he have consensual sex with her? If it was consensual sex, then why plead guilty to her murder? This case has my head in a major spin.

[Pag Boi]

IIRC Lumumba was shooting hoops close to the crime scene/flat,
he was used as a scape goat. His basketball behavior was habitual.
JMO

What??? Where did you get this info? TIA

I read that the bball courts were alleged to be a known hangout of druggies and other illegal activities.


Lumumba was Amanda's boss. He texted her the bar would be closed. His alibi was a friend of his that was a professor as Univ. of Zurich. Others said bar was closed & bar receipts proved it wasn't open.Lumumba was implicated by Meredith.

It was when they found DNA of unknown perp that Lumumba got cleared. Guenda was implicated b/c of alleged cctv footage and the stmts of witnesses that saw him at a laundromat washing bloody clothing & shoes.

If Amanda was there, I do wonder why none of her stories ever implicated Guenda. JMOO

[Pag Boi]

The Seattle stuff is amazing, since she has been portrayed as pure as the driven snow and never, ever in trouble in her life until she went abroad. If the Daily Mail got it right, Knox sure doesn't sound like an innocent little coed to me. That, of course, doesn't in any way make her a killer, but it's going to be very interesting to see just how the spinning goes. jmo



Does this story even make sense?

Those present that night say the scenes on the street were as nothing compared to what was going on inside Knox's rented house, less than a mile from where she studied English, German and Italian amid the calm, regulated life at one of America's greatest universities.
It was, according to one party guest, "bedlam, with drink, drugs and bodies everywhere.


Foxy Knoxy had wild party going on inside her house but she was outside throwing rocks at her neighbors windows? What exactly was she found guilty of? The crime is so serious that the author does not say what the charges were?

This whole article seems to me to be sensationalism. University of Washington is no doubt a fine and prestigous institution. "One of America's greatest universities?" Out of the top 100 or 200 greatest?

Drink, drugs and naked bodies at a college party? I have seldom heard of such antics by coeds. :rolleyes:

Article says "it is rare for a party incident involving a 20 year-old to end up in court unless police believe a serious crime has been committed." Maybe things are different in Seattle. And Italy.

There is no need to spin this story. There is no need to make this horrible tragedy more lurid than it already is. JMOO

[Pag Boi]

Italian officials seem to have as many versions as the suspects. Will Meredith ever have true justice? :rose:


The three suspects then tried to simulate a theft, wrecking the inside of the house and spraying the floor and sink in the bathroom with blood, according to the judge.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1568931/Fourth-suspect-in-Meredith-murder-identified.html

[gmr32]

Well I hope so. The Italian authorites have had over a year to research their case. I don't think they have as many versions as Knox and Sollecito. The trial hasn't really started yet. I'm waiting to read what the witnesses have to say. Will be interesting.

[Pag Boi]

Well I hope so. The Italian authorites have had over a year to research their case. I don't think they have as many versions as Knox and Sollecito. The trial hasn't really started yet. I'm waiting to read what the witnesses have to say. Will be interesting.

Did you read the link or even the quote I posted from it? Allegedly that quote is from a 19 page report by a judge.

Italy's legal system is different from the USA. But the article claims to quote an officer of the court, for lack of a better label. There are many versions/allegations from Italian officials just as there are many from Knox. It makes it harder to discern the truth, IMO.

I don't know what the truth is and AK hasn't done herself any favors. Neither has LE.

I am more interested in the evidence submitted to the court than what witnesses have to say. It is obvious to me from reading links that witnesses will contradict each other.JMOO

[Aradia5]

Amanda should have just kept her mouth shut. It seems in any Country, if you change your story, you are guilty.

How can a judge write:
In her reconstruction of the night of Miss Kercher’s death, Judge Matteini wrote: "Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox spent the entire afternoon smoking hashish," she said, before Lumumba texted her mobile phone in order to arrange a meeting. The judge said Knox had previously agreed to help Lumumba "have an encounter with Meredith".

How does that judge know what the text said? I thought it said that Amanda didn't have to work.

Lumumba is cleared as a suspect.

I don't see any kind of fair trial coming. It will be interesting though.

[gmr32]

Did you read the link or even the quote I posted from it? Allegedly that quote is from a 19 page report by a judge.

Italy's legal system is different from the USA. But the article claims to quote an officer of the court, for lack of a better label. There are many versions/allegations from Italian officials just as there are many from Knox. It makes it harder to discern the truth, IMO.

I don't know what the truth is and AK hasn't done herself any favors. Neither has LE.

I am more interested in the evidence submitted to the court than what witnesses have to say. It is obvious to me from reading links that witnesses will contradict each other.JMOO

You just answered your own question. How else do you expect to get to the truth if you don't listen to what the witnesses say? That's what a trial is for. Not an alleged 19 page report by a judge. It either is a report by the judge or it isn't. Alleged doesn't mean anything. I'll wait for the trial. I'll agree with you on this much. Knox hasn't done herself any favors. But I'll still wait for the trial. To read what the witnesses say.

[dgfred]

When did he have consensual sex with her? If it was consensual sex, then why plead guilty to her murder? This case has my head in a major spin.

Before Amanda and Raf came over.

Plead guilty to avoid life in prison (only got 30 years)

Hold your head, the spinning will continue.

[Aradia5]

Before Amanda and Raf came over.

Plead guilty to avoid life in prison (only got 30 years)

Hold your head, the spinning will continue.

I can't wait until the 6th.
Did he really have blood all over his cloths?

[cloe23]

cloe23,

Thank you for the background information.

YW:smile:.....

[Aradia5]

Who had blood all over tgheir clothes?

BTW.... to the poster who asked about the consensual sex..... It's very possible to have consensual sex, then be raped and murdered. All in the same meeting.

Guede I guess. IIRC Someone saw him at a laundromat.

BTW, that was me. That consensual sex, rape, murder doesn't make sense to me, not by the same person anyway.

:confused:

[dgfred]

Guede did not plead guilty to murder. He opted for a "fast-track" trial, and was convicted. The "fast-track" option caused him to receive a shorter sentence than he might otherwise have received.

Without the 'fast-track' trial he would have gone for life. So if you know you are going to get a guilty... best to pick the 'fast-track' right?
:wink:

[cloe23]

Without the 'fast-track' trial he would have gone for life. So if you know you are going to get a guilty... best to pick the 'fast-track' right?
:wink:

Is 'fast- track' like a plea agreement or more like a bench trial?:confused:

[Aradia5]

It is like a USA speedy trial with a type of plea. I think. :confused:

Guede's lawyers' had asked the judge to separate his trial from that of Knox and Sollecito and grant him fast-track proceedings, which could lead to a lesser and quicker sentence if he is convicted.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/09/16/kercher.hearing/index.html?section=cnn_latest

[Aradia5]

Is 'fast- track' like a plea agreement or more like a bench trial?:confused:

We need this link over here. I almost missed it on the links page.

http://hitsusa.com/blog/282/amanda-knox/

That last photo is um, uh, I can't explain how I feel about it.

[dgfred]

Which one, I'm not sure which you are talking about?

Weird stuff this case.

[Aradia5]

Which one, I'm not sure which you are talking about?

Weird stuff this case.

Look at the last photo with this caption;

Amanda’s lover posted bizarre sexual murder fantasies on MySpace as well

[Aradia5]

Amanda's Mother was on The View, Feb 03. Naturally, according to her, Amanda is a complete angel who has absolutely no idea what happened the night Meridith was murdered.

She said Amanda returned to her apartment and called the police, because something was amiss. Nothing was stolen. Just not right. There were other roomies there as well. Meridith's door was locked from inside. The police refused to break into Meridith's room. One of the other roomies broke down the door.

JMO..... sounds like Amanda was wanting the police (or someone else) to discover Meredith. It was a set up to distance Amanda from the scene. I did not know there were other roomies there when Meridith was 'discovered'.

I could not help but wonder what Meredith's family must think as the image of St. Amanda is painted.

The more her family speaks out, the more guilty it makes Amanda seem IMO.


I watched it. I still don't know what to think about guilt or innocence. I don't think she was any kind of saint. Far from it actually. The 6th isn't coming fast enough if you ask me.

[dgfred]

Look at the last photo with this caption;

Amanda’s lover posted bizarre sexual murder fantasies on MySpace as well

OK, I understand now. Yeah that is kind of... suspicious.

[lunchlady]

I am always conflicted about parents and other family members proclaiming the innocence of an accused person. On the one hand they are maximally biased and might insist on innocence even if they know it isn't true; on the other hand they know that person intimately and are unlikely to prematurely decide the person is guilty.
Entwhistle's parents were willing to twist the evidence to say his wife had shot the baby and herself AFTER Neil's conviction. I wonder if they really believe their son is innocent or if they simply want to save him from a life in prison overseas.

[Aradia5]

I am always conflicted about parents and other family members proclaiming the innocence of an accused person. On the one hand they are maximally biased and might insist on innocence even if they know it isn't true; on the other hand they know that person intimately and are unlikely to prematurely decide the person is guilty.
Entwhistle's parents were willing to twist the evidence to say his wife had shot the baby and herself AFTER Neil's conviction. I wonder if they really believe their son is innocent or if they simply want to save him from a life in prison overseas.

Look at Casey's parents.

Entwhistle's parents blew me away with that!

[lunchlady]

Look at Casey's parents.

Entwhistle's parents blew me away with that!

Parents are supposed to love and protect their children, but I think if your kid has done something horrible you have to accept it and try to make some sort of amends to the victim or their family if possible. Parents remember the innocence and know the previous promise and good deeds of the guilty, which makes the downfall of their child heartbreaking, but denying the truth at some point makes a parent seem deluded and even wicked.
Entwhistle's parents performance makes me wonder if Neil was taught that other people don't matter that much, which helped Neil make the decision to kill his little family. His parents continuing to try and cover for him and blame anyone but him, even the dead wife, made me lose the bit of sympathy I had for them.

Knox's parents are still doing the right thing, I suppose, given that she hasn't been proven guilty and convicted. I wonder if their knowledge of the evidence ever makes them lie awake at night and wonder if she's really innocent. She had academic promise and I can see why they can't believe that their little girl is on trial for murder.
I worked with someone who had worked with Ted Bundy in Seattle and she said she was completely surprised when he was arrested for serial murder. She said he really didn't seem like a weirdo at all, forget about a total weirdo.

[cloe23]

This is the link about the the bloody shoe print matching up with Raffaele's shoe. At the crime scene.


http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2007-11-28-italy-slaying_N.htm

[cloe23]

Do you remember where you read/heard that Cloe? That's one I haven't heard, but if it's true, what a damning piece of evidence! jmo

I am still looking for the link that I read on this. I know I read it.

[cloe23]

Look at Casey's parents.

Entwhistle's parents blew me away with that!

Casey who? :unsure: J/K

Looking back I can't recall any parent that hasn't supported their child when they are up on felony charges. Unless there were habitual offenders. Seems like parents want to believe in / support their children. I am speaking of first time offenders. jmo
If Amanda is convicted of this charge, I wonder what kind of process that her loved one's will go threw to accept it, maybe they never will.
It is almost like the stages of death.
Denial, anger, bargaining, acceptance. To name a few.
These kind of ppl without the ability to feel any remorse have no idea that they have ruined not only the family of the victim but their own family as well.

[Aradia5]

How

When

Who

Where

was Meredith found?

How & Where:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-508528/Chilling-pictures-Meredith-murder-scene-reveal-apartment-bloodbath-horror.html

[cloe23]

Thank you Aradia5.

That article with the pics I've never seen before.

Does anyone know how Meredith was found that morning? Is Amanda saying she came home from boyfriend's and found Meredith murdered?

Who called police?

The links support the story that Amanda came home from Raffaele's place, took a shower and noticed that she hadn't seen or heard from Meredith.(Paraphrasing) Amanda tried to open Meredith's bedroom door and found it locked. Then what she did I don't know the order, called her mom, called Raffaele or called LE. LE had to gain entrance to Meredith's room. Please correct me if I am wrong. I don't know what to believe anymore. I remember reading somewhere that Amanda and Raffaele went there together, stopping at a news stand and buying the daily news paper.
Now tonight on HLN show Amanda's aunts were on stating that the knife evidence recovered from Raffaele's place has been tossed out of court. I'm spinning.:unsure:

[cloe23]

How & Where:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-508528/Chilling-pictures-Meredith-murder-scene-reveal-apartment-bloodbath-horror.html

TY for the link. These photos don't look right to me. Why is Meredith's bathroom saturated in blood and very little blood where the assault is suggested to take place? Meredith was found under the comforter.
I am not questioning you posting the link, I am questioning the link. Looking at these photos to me suggests that the perp was injured to the degree of needing medical attention. I have read that it took some time for Meredith to bleed to death. If she went to the bathroom there would be a different pattern of blood splatter.
I question why there is that much transfer blood in the bathroom and very little in the rest of the house.
Further more this blood looks pink, given time wouldn't it be reddish-brown?

[Aradia5]

TY for the link. These photos don't look right to me. Why is Meredith's bathroom saturated in blood and very little blood where the assault is suggested to take place? Meredith was found under the comforter.
I am not questioning you posting the link, I am questioning the link. Looking at these photos to me suggests that the perp was injured to the degree of needing medical attention. I have read that it took some time for Meredith to bleed to death. If she went to the bathroom there would be a different pattern of blood splatter.
I question why there is that much transfer blood in the bathroom and very little in the rest of the house.
Further more this blood looks pink, given time wouldn't it be reddish-brown?

Meredith was a Vampire for Halloween. Do you think that could be fake blood? :confused:

[Aradia5]

The links support the story that Amanda came home from Raffaele's place, took a shower and noticed that she hadn't seen or heard from Meredith.(Paraphrasing) Amanda tried to open Meredith's bedroom door and found it locked. Then what she did I don't know the order, called her mom, called Raffaele or called LE. LE had to gain entrance to Meredith's room. Please correct me if I am wrong. I don't know what to believe anymore. I remember reading somewhere that Amanda and Raffaele went there together, stopping at a news stand and buying the daily news paper.
Now tonight on HLN show Amanda's aunts were on stating that the knife evidence recovered from Raffaele's place has been tossed out of court. I'm spinning.:unsure:

Amanda was also told her blood came back and she had AIDS, then they said "woops, that wasn't your blood test"
So who knows how badly they messed up DNA in this case.

I am on the fence too. :drool:

[Aradia5]

Knife evidence recovered from Raffaele's place has been tossed out of court????? :ohmy:

WHY???

[Aradia5]

I don't put a whole lot of faith in what Amanda says LE told her, either.

It's interesting she understood the weird stuff they were telling her, except when she responded improperly and incriminated herself.

I wouldn't want to be locked up in another country. IMO she is $crewed.

[lunchlady]

One aspect of the reported evidence that really puzzles me is the luminol findings. I read somewhere that luminol showed evidence of mopping in the murder room but never read anything about finding the mop or anyone looking for it. Seems like that would have great palm and fingerprints on it and it would be clumsy to dispose of quickly. Whoever cut her throat wasn't an expert murderer and so probably left plenty of evidence, but if it wasn't collected and processed properly then it all gets confusing.

Does Italy have laws which prevent being tried on lesser charges if the defendant is acquitted of the more serious charges? Seems like Amanda at the very least helped put Meredith in harm's way, perhaps out of irritation with Meredith putting a crimp on her sex/drugs fun and perhaps out of a perverted pleasure in Meredith being sexually assaulted. Helping plan and enable murder can get you a capital murder conviction in the US even if you don't touch the victim yourself. Is that true in Italy?

[Aradia5]

Aradia5,

I don't believe just because it is not America, fair justice will not be served.

The US Justice system, IMO, could be a lot better in many respects.

I sure hope so. Did you see this article?

Questioned: Rudy Hermann Guede said Amanda Knox and Meredith Kercher hated each other
A prime suspect in the murder of a British student yesterday confessed that Amanda Knox and her boyfriend were at the murder scene.
Rudy Hermann Guede, 20, was questioned for nearly six hours and made the damning admission to police and prosecutors.
It is the first time that any of the suspects in the murder of student Meredith Kercher, 20, have directly blamed each other.
Meredith, from Croydon, Surrey, was found semi naked and with her throat cut in her bedroom of the student digs she shared with American Knox, 20, nearly five months ago.
Last night prosecution sources said Guede's confession was a "nail in the coffin" in the case and were delighted with his admission.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-547048/Foxy-Knoxy-Meredith-murder-scene-says-suspect.html

Did Guede get deal to testify against Amanda?:confused:

[Aradia5]

Devil's advocate here.....

What if someone read the postings on MySpace and was actually after Amanda Knox? Looking to play some of the fantasies she had posted.

People just don't understand the impact of what they post online. How it affects those who read it.


Could very well be. :blink:

[cloe23]

Meredith was a Vampire for Halloween. Do you think that could be fake blood? :confused:

:w00t:Now that is very plausible. The perps staged Meredith's bathroom. If so this sick and twisted thrill kill is sicker then I can even imagine. I wish we could see what was happening in the courtroom.

[cloe23]

Devil's advocate here.....

What if someone read the postings on MySpace and was actually after Amanda Knox? Looking to play some of the fantasies she had posted.

People just don't understand the impact of what they post online. How it affects those who read it.


:scared: ..............Good defence theory.

[cloe23]

One aspect of the reported evidence that really puzzles me is the luminol findings. I read somewhere that luminol showed evidence of mopping in the murder room but never read anything about finding the mop or anyone looking for it. Seems like that would have great palm and fingerprints on it and it would be clumsy to dispose of quickly. Whoever cut her throat wasn't an expert murderer and so probably left plenty of evidence, but if it wasn't collected and processed properly then it all gets confusing.

Does Italy have laws which prevent being tried on lesser charges if the defendant is acquitted of the more serious charges? Seems like Amanda at the very least helped put Meredith in harm's way, perhaps out of irritation with Meredith putting a crimp on her sex/drugs fun and perhaps out of a perverted pleasure in Meredith being sexually assaulted. Helping plan and enable murder can get you a capital murder conviction in the US even if you don't touch the victim yourself. Is that true in Italy?



I read on one of the links or heard from TH's that behind Amanda and Meredith's flat is a drop off (paraphrasing). And that LE didn't even search this area. IIRC
Don't know about laws in Italy.

[cloe23]

Knife evidence recovered from Raffaele's place has been tossed out of court????? :ohmy:

WHY???

I heard it on one of the TH shows last night IIRC. Amanda's aunts were guests and said that the knife didn't match the wound on Meredith's neck. How true I don't know? It was on NG show. I gotta fly so can't look for the transcript.

[Aradia5]

I heard it on one of the TH shows last night IIRC. Amanda's aunts were guests and said that the knife didn't match the wound on Meredith's neck. How true I don't know? It was on NG show. I gotta fly so can't look for the transcript.

I thought they said it had Meredith's DNA on it. Guess they didn't mean blood DNA.
Oh what a MESS! :scared:

[dgfred]

I thought they said it had Meredith's DNA on it. Guess they didn't mean blood DNA.
Oh what a MESS! :scared:


They said Meredith's DNA on blade and Amanda's on handle.

NG doesn't always show anything with this case, only occaisionally.

I'm not being rude... I hope, but NG has been annoying me also with the
Bombshells that are not, calling every caller friend, and showing her babies every other show. I think she should be doing more in the show regarding the cases. dgfred proceeds to duck NG fans incoming missles.

[cloe23]

I thought they said it had Meredith's DNA on it. Guess they didn't mean blood DNA.
Oh what a MESS! :scared:

I heard that too, maybe just skin cells? I will grab NG transcripts.

[cloe23]

They said Meredith's DNA on blade and Amanda's on handle.

NG doesn't always show anything with this case, only occaisionally.

I'm not being rude... I hope, but NG has been annoying me also with the
Bombshells that are not, calling every caller friend, and showing her babies every other show. I think she should be doing more in the show regarding the cases. dgfred proceeds to duck NG fans incoming missles.

TY for the clarification dgfred, the only thing that grabbed my attention is that Amanda's family has privy to this evidence. Why can't we!:crying:

[cloe23]

Dose NG do something on this case every night? What position has NG taken on the guilt/innocence of AK?

Maybe I'll DVR it so I can ignore the rest of her show.

She has covered a bit of it lately. Gawd I wish I had a DVR!
NG was on the view a week or so back and mentioned this case, at the time she was imo leaning towards guilty. Another link I post.

[Aradia5]

They said Meredith's DNA on blade and Amanda's on handle.

NG doesn't always show anything with this case, only occaisionally.

I'm not being rude... I hope, but NG has been annoying me also with the
Bombshells that are not, calling every caller friend, and showing her babies every other show. I think she should be doing more in the show regarding the cases. dgfred proceeds to duck NG fans incoming missles.

The DNA only matched Meredith by 1%. :confused: And they said it was NOT blood DNA :confused:

Did I get that wrong?

Not rude at all. I am no fan of NG. :biggrin:

[Aradia5]

So now we have no murder weapon. Now what?

[cloe23]

So now we have no murder weapon. Now what?

If this is true. I am going to post another link about Raffaele and his knife collection. IMO the knife that has been ruled out is one that came from a kitchen knife set/block.

Read all this. There is suggestion of a switch blade that LE has in custody and Raffaele kept in his pocket as well as the possibility of Amanda setting up the bar owner who was once a suspect and later released.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2851266.ece?token=null&offset=0&page=1