July 2 thru 12/31 [Archive] - Page 2 - In Session Message Boards

walton

08-02-2008, 05:18 PM

Originally posted by grammybear
Walton, thanks for that link. It is a very insiteful bit of information. I have heard about the issue with the Kingston clan for a long time. The issues surrounding John Kingston and Heidi Mattingly Foster had become a part of everyday reading around here for quite awhile. Judge Valdez was a man trying to do the best he could for this family but having said that it seemed like this man just kept getting away with more and more. I cannot remember but I believe two of their daughters ran away and would not go back home. I believe the issue was the girls wanting to have their ears pierced and it just escalated from there. The last I heard one of the girls went back to the clan and the other stayed living with an aunt and uncle who were not polygamist. Please don't quote me on that but that seems to be the way I remember the situation. I have two friends who knew Judge Valdez. One friend knew him when they were working together I believe in Desert Storm and the other was a foster parent for the state of Utah.

None of these groups imo have the keys to everllasting life and will never have them and are using revelations to condone a life of incest, abuse and pedofilia. I do not for one moment believe these groups are doing all of this for the sake of religion. They tell themselves it is for religion but deep down they know what they are doing is wrong.

jmoo [/*]

Yeah I remember the whole thing with Heidi and John. After the Texas Raid she was one of the people standing on the Courthouse steps asking for donations to send to Texas. They took in tv's and a lot of other things. Heidi and Mary *. claimed they understood only too well. If she understood why were they sending tv's to the kids? :shrug:

John has over 100 kids and Heidi stands by her man. Heidi and how many wives? oy

juliekan

08-04-2008, 03:07 PM

Clashing stories, similar DNA hurt FLDS prosecution

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/life/religion/5922407.html

According to one state source close to the investigation who asked not to be identified, at least 5 percent of DNA samples taken from children and parents was so similar when compared, it could not be determined in those cases which child belonged to which parent.

walton

08-04-2008, 08:33 PM

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_10082831

Book signings and discussions

Massacre at Mountain Meadows
by Ronald Walker, Richard Turley and Glen Leonard

Aug. 8
7 p.m.
Ken Sanders Bookstore
Authors will sign copies and discuss the book
268 S. 200 East
Salt Lake City

Aug. 9
4:45 to 6:15 p.m.
Sunstone Symposium

Book review and discussion featuring Walker, Leonard and others

Sheraton City Centre
150 W. 500 South
Salt Lake City

Aug. 12
5:30 to 7:30 p.m.
Book signing and discussion
Benchmark Books
3269 S. Main St., Suite 250
South Salt Lake

Sept. 5
7 p.m.
Salt Lake City Main Library
Panel discussion sponsored by the American West Center at the U. of U. and others
210 E. 400 South
Salt Lake City

Is anyone here able to attend ? If anyone here gets to go will you let me know. I have a couple of questions I would like answered.

Thanks.

lunchlady

08-05-2008, 01:11 PM

There was a good article with lots of photos of several of Jeffs' "wives" and their many kids in the New York Times Magazine, July 27, 2008. They are living in several big houses in the suburbs in Texas, probably on taxpayers' money for rent, food, air conditioning, etc. How about they take in washing from the neighbors or work down at the mall and start getting adjusted to the real world? How about a home day care business, since they like kids so much? They seem to be spending all their time talking to publicly provided attorneys and playing house with their brood. I really resent that the Jeffs baby machine wasn't shut down earlier, for all the women's sakes as well as the public's expense. Judging by all the photos of Jeffs on the walls they are patiently awaiting his return as their lord and master, and preparing the next generation to keep the baby machine cranking. Wake up fembots!

Vinnie

08-05-2008, 06:34 PM

Check this out: http://myeldorado.net/

Texas Child Protective Services has filed four Motions of Conservatorship seeking custody of eight children from four FLDS families. Parents of the children are listed as: Frederick Merril Jessop and Barbara Steed Jessop; Orval Leroy Johnson and Amy Johnson; Dr. Lloyd Hammon Barlow and Alice Barlow; Nephi Barlow and Grace Young.

"Frederick Merril Jessop" and "Barbara Steed Jessop" are the notorious Merril and Barbara from Caroline's book!

Cat2007

08-05-2008, 08:51 PM

I think at one time I read an article about Jeffs right after his father died and he told all of his mothers that it had been revealed to him that he should marry all the wives. I believe there was one woman who refused.

Grammy, that was Elissa Wall's sister, wasn't it?

lunchlady

08-05-2008, 09:52 PM

I imagine that the FLDS folks don't give a rats *** about the papers they signed, as they think its a great idea that their little girls start participating in the baby machine ASAP. They might even want them to get pregnant before they get scooped up again by the CPS folks.
If Barlow is the one I saw a picture of somewhere he is extremely ugly and creepy looking, not the kind of man a young girl would dream of unless she was totally brainwashed or simply obeying orders.
Yes, big kudos to Texas for fighting against this arrogant bunch of pedophiles. The women need to be deprogrammed, or at least cut off on the hairspray.

lotty

08-06-2008, 10:47 AM

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_10110171

According to this article, 2 sons and 1 daughter of Merrill and Barbara Jessop. 1 daughter of Amy Johnson. 2 daughters of Nephi and Ellen Barlow, and 2 daughters of Lloyd and Alice Barlow.
I am glad to see there is concern for the boys as well as the girls. This article is :cuss: IMO.

Roux

08-06-2008, 02:35 PM

Originally posted by lotty
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_10110171

According to this article, 2 sons and 1 daughter of Merrill and Barbara Jessop. 1 daughter of Amy Johnson. 2 daughters of Nephi and Ellen Barlow, and 2 daughters of Lloyd and Alice Barlow.
I am glad to see there is concern for the boys as well as the girls. This article is :cuss: IMO. [/*]

I'm sorry that it's necessary for the state to take custody of the children, but it's the fault of their own mothers -- the arrogance of thinking they can do whatever they wish; that they don't have to obey the law. I still believe that, even if you've been brought up in this cult, there is some discernment of right and wrong deep down inside a woman. Did Barbara Jessop really think it was ok to give her 12 yr old in marriage? Maybe she was too busy flitting about as the favorite wife to give any of her children much thought.

Jan Powell

08-06-2008, 03:51 PM

"The children will be allowed to remain with their mothers until a Sept. 25 hearing, CPS spokeswoman Marleigh Meisner said."

http://www.statesman.com/news/content/news/stories/local/08/06/0806eldorado.html

CPS must not consider there is an immenent danger to the kids at this time (since the allegations stem from 2004 to 2006 plus the kids were left there).

At lease one woman was advised by her attorney not to sign the paper CPS wanted her to sign for fear it would be used against her in the future. She couldn't win; sign the paper and it's used against you in court, don't sign the paper and it's used against you because they'll take your children.

CPS has full access for unannounced visits to check on the children but this doesn't read like a current/new transgression, it's just they wouldn't sign the papers CPS wanted.

lotty

08-06-2008, 03:57 PM

Originally posted by Roux

I'm sorry that it's necessary for the state to take custody of the children, but it's the fault of their own mothers -- the arrogance of thinking they can do whatever they wish; that they don't have to obey the law. I still believe that, even if you've been brought up in this cult, there is some discernment of right and wrong deep down inside a woman. Did Barbara Jessop really think it was ok to give her 12 yr old in marriage? Maybe she was too busy flitting about as the favorite wife to give any of her children much thought. [/*]
ITA!
I just couldn't believe Willie J.'s comments in the article! I guess the only law they have to follow is "God's law" (which would be Warren's law in their eyes.) JMO

Roux

08-06-2008, 05:06 PM

Originally posted by Jan Powell
"The children will be allowed to remain with their mothers until a Sept. 25 hearing, CPS spokeswoman Marleigh Meisner said."

http://www.statesman.com/news/content/news/stories/local/08/06/0806eldorado.html

CPS must not consider there is an immenent danger to the kids at this time (since the allegations stem from 2004 to 2006 plus the kids were left there).

At lease one woman was advised by her attorney not to sign the paper CPS wanted her to sign for fear it would be used against her in the future. She couldn't win; sign the paper and it's used against you in court, don't sign the paper and it's used against you because they'll take your children.

CPS has full access for unannounced visits to check on the children but this doesn't read like a current/new transgression, it's just they wouldn't sign the papers CPS wanted. [/*]

I'm a member of AARP so that tells you right there that I'm not so good at remembering facts, but the "papers" that the FLDS mothers were asked to sign were simply agreements to the criteria set forth by CPS for return of the children, weren't they? I don't recall that there was anything truly objectionable to REASONABLE people. Seems to me the attorney who advised her client not to sign was too wrapped up in possible criminal charges. Since we're not privy to all the documents involved, it is easy to miscontrue the situation on either the side of CPS or FLDS, IMO.

As far as the hearing being set in September, one would think that the state is being extremely careful to have everything in place so that there's no repeat of the first removal of children.

walton

08-06-2008, 09:45 PM

Originally posted by lotty
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_10110171

According to this article, 2 sons and 1 daughter of Merrill and Barbara Jessop. 1 daughter of Amy Johnson. 2 daughters of Nephi and Ellen Barlow, and 2 daughters of Lloyd and Alice Barlow.
I am glad to see there is concern for the boys as well as the girls. This article is :cuss: IMO. [/*]

From this link: Meisner said cases being dismissed involve families where there is either no evidence of underage marriages or children whose parents have agreed to appropriate steps to protect them from abuse.
She said in "more than half of the YFZ children, no match was found among the 26 fathers who provided DNA samples."

So....... that means that those men either stepped forward knowing they didn't have any children with these women..... or did these men think that they were the fathers?

Man what a mess!! The mothers of these children better plant their feet in this world and get a grip! Each one of these mothers should be held accountable. imo

walton

08-06-2008, 09:58 PM

not.another posted this in the link thread (Thank you.)

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,398324,00.html

From this link:

Four mothers have refused. CPS said they are:

— A wife of Barlow, who caseworker Paul Dyer said in an affidavit was married four times, including a marriage to a 16-year-old.

Barlow told an investigator he had delivered children to underage girls at the YFZ Ranch and elsewhere "many times" without reporting the deliveries to authorities, the affidavit said.

— A woman who has a 13-year-old daughter at home but allowed an older daughter to marry at 15 and who herself married an FLDS elder who presided over the marriage of a 12-year-old girl.

— A mother of two boys and a 14-year-old girl questioned by investigators about underage marriages.

The girl twisted her face in disgust when asked whether a 13-year-old who married a 40-year-old man and had a baby would be considered sexually abused.

"The marriages are pure," the girl told caseworker Ruby Gutierrez.

The girl, according to Gutierrez's affidavit, went on to say "that this can't be a crime because Heavenly Father is the one that tells (Jeffs) when a girl is ready to get married and that he is only following the word of Heavenly Father."

— A mother who had sent her 9- and 10-year-old daughters to live at the ranch but hadn't seen them in about three years.

The woman, an accountant who moved to San Antonio after the raid, refused to sign the safety plan, telling a caseworker she felt it was "an insult to common sense."

"an insult to common sense." Spoken by a woman who lives how far from the ranch ? And hasn't seen her kids in 3 years? Why?

:flamemad:

The sequel to Big Love should be Big Love Lockdown. jmo

walton

08-06-2008, 10:04 PM

http://coramnonjudice.blogspot.com/

I don't know who has this blogsite and I don't know how to blog does anyone see a place to send this person an e-mail or something?

If anyone here blogs there would ya tell him I like it. I like it a lot.

Thanks.

walton

08-06-2008, 10:10 PM

http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/

Check out Brookes entry titled Eight Children

walton

08-06-2008, 11:40 PM

Originally posted by Imperfect

Make sure to check out the entries below that one, too. I hadn't visited her blog in awhile. Several interesting updates there. [/*]

I check her blog daily now for the last 3-4 years. I am telling ya I honestly have teeth marks in my tounge from not being able to respond. Since finding Coram Non Judice I have gone there daily as well. Links to back up what is said, a little humor and a whole lotta truth. jmo

Concerning the Grandma compound. Sounds nice doesn't it? Do ya think the feds would ever go raid a grandma compound looking for someone that might be hiding someone that might go on the run? Can you imagine how that would play out in the public eye? Where is Merril by the way?

Concerning Dr. Fischer. There is a statement there made by Dr. Fischer. I don't know what he has done in his past. I read his statement and my gut feeling is that he is telling the truth.

Concerning Flora Jessop. Seems to be more to the story than what we all know about. Sure seems to be alot of comments on how she lived her life and yet those same people can't change the fact that the abuse that she endured did indeed happen.

I admire her strength and I admire her determination.

Bruce Wissan. I really like this guy. Thumbs up to him and to Judge Lindberg.

walton

08-06-2008, 11:47 PM

Originally posted by Imperfect

Walton -- from your linked blog, which the author took directly from the motions, which he also linked (and I hope it's okay to quote blogs? -- if not, I'll understand if this post goes poof):

Wow. Just ... wow.

So much for the utter Bee.S. they tried to hand us that underage marriages were the exception to the rule.

And so much for the argument that what happened in Short Creek stayed in Short Creek. The he!! it did. They took that show on the road and really amp'd up the action once they were at the YFZ.

Warren was ordering up adolescent wives for his own nasty self and his inner circle like a drunk buying rounds at a bar.

:flamemad: [/*]

I don't really know the rules about blogs either. And I don't know if a person has to have permission from the owner or not. I feel like I am always taking a chance.

What kind of charges could be brought against the men performing these make shift "spiritual marriages" ?

walton

08-07-2008, 08:55 AM

http://myeldorado.net/

The last four bonded out. Michael Emack, Allan Keate and Merril Leroy Jessop posted $100,000 surety bonds.

Raymond Jessop posted 2 surety bonds.

lotty

08-07-2008, 10:39 AM

http://www.azstarnet.com/allheadlines/251704
Court: Polygamist had no right to sex with 'wife,' 16
By Howard Fischer
Capitol Media Services
Tucson, Arizona | Published: 08.07.2008
PHOENIX — Arizonans have no religious right to practice polygamy, at least not with minors, the state Court of Appeals has ruled.

Roux

08-07-2008, 01:09 PM

Originally posted by walton
http://myeldorado.net/

The last four bonded out. Michael Emack, Allan Keate and Merril Leroy Jessop posted $100,000 surety bonds.

Raymond Jessop posted 2 surety bonds. [/*]

I wonder where the $$ came from? Hope they don't go to the Grandma compound and hide out, never to be seen or heard from again.

Roux

08-07-2008, 01:15 PM

Originally posted by walton
http://coramnonjudice.blogspot.com/

I don't know who has this blogsite and I don't know how to blog does anyone see a place to send this person an e-mail or something?

If anyone here blogs there would ya tell him I like it. I like it a lot.

Thanks. [/*]

If Brooke Adams doesn't read his blog, she should! I'm grateful to you for posting the link; have read several of the comments over the past weeks.

Reading the excerpts from the motions, I had a picture in my mind's eye of those parents handing over 11 and 12 year old girls, and it made me barf . I have a 13 yr old granddaughter and cannot imagine standing by watching her be married to ANY man, regardless if he was 20, 30, 40, 50 or beyond. Too disgusting to contemplate.

juliekan

08-07-2008, 01:20 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Roux

I'm sorry that it's necessary for the state to take custody of the children, but it's the fault of their own mothers -- the arrogance of thinking they can do whatever they wish; that they don't have to obey the law. I still believe that, even if you've been brought up in this cult, there is some discernment of right and wrong deep down inside a woman. Did Barbara Jessop really think it was ok to give her 12 yr old in marriage? Maybe she was too busy flitting about as the favorite wife to give any of her children much thought. [/*][/QUOTE

Sorry if this has already been posted, I'm a day behind everyone else...I think Barbara and Merrill marrying off their 12 year old was a political decision. Linking their family with a marriage to the "prophet" just sounds like jockeying for position in the FLDS.

Roux

08-07-2008, 01:21 PM

Originally posted by walton
http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/

Check out Brookes entry titled Eight Children [/*]

What a loving step-father is Merrill. NOT! When the little girl inquired about her mother, he told her it was none of her business. (And if I understand the family relationships, he is also her uncle?)

juliekan

08-07-2008, 02:01 PM

Here's the CPS family service plan and goals if anyone needs a refresher. like me...:o

http://web.gosanangelo.com/pdf/051508_fldsplan.pdf

lunchlady

08-07-2008, 02:17 PM

This whole "religiion" seems to be a scheme for a few creepy men to get maximum access to young girls and make babies. And to justify it by saying that they are prophets or manifestations of God is extra creepy.
The Biblical justification they try to use is so lame. Its almost as bad as the people who handle poisonous snakes (and sometimes get bitten) to show their favor with God based on one line in the Bible somewhere.
This sort of thing further erodes the value of more rational Christian religion in US society and around the world. We judge Islam largely by their extremists, and so Christianity will be judged partly by its extremists, both here and abroad. If we expect Islam to help moderate their extremists, then Christians need to do the same thing. There's nothing more powerful than setting a good example. There's a lot of value in the old religions, and people need to be encouraged to value them for the right reasons.
Religious freedom was not established as a right in order to protect pedophiles or other criminals. If the law says the age of consent is 16 or 18 or whatever it is where the girl is then that's the law, which was established for lots of good reasons. If they want to do otherwise with impunity they will have to relocate to another country, which won't be as generous with welfare money, or start their own minination, which won't have the economic means to support itself unless they come up with an industry besides babies.

juliekan

08-07-2008, 02:50 PM

A surety bond is a generic term for all bonds. You have 3 parts:
In this case, you have
The principle: the man accused
The obligee: the government
The surety: basically the bail bondsman or insurance company putting the money up.

The surety guarantees that the principle will fulfill his obligation(not to run off in this case). The surety must pay the obligee if the principle defaults on his agreement.

I cribbed this from about 4 sites...one site said the surety bond was frequently used in the construction industry....so I guess the child labor supported FLDS is familiar with this. So basically who paid the bail?

JMO

juliekan

08-07-2008, 04:07 PM

Originally posted by Imperfect

I'm not knowledgeable about the nitty gritty details of how polygamy factors into the whole LDS and/or FLDS religious construct. However it does, I have to assume the *original* intent of it was not to give pedophilia-prone dirty old men an outlet. Unfortunately, that's exactly what has occurred, IMO.

To my eye, a mess like this starts with the absolute control and authority handed to the men of the sect, and ends with that enormous power placed into the hands of ego maniacs like Jeffs and his ilk.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts, absolutely -- as the saying goes. There are very few mere mortal men, IMO, who can handle that level of unquestioned, unchecked power well. It seems most of them ultimately end up in the pursuit of evil.

The fact that the structure of so much organized religion places that very absolute authority in the hands of men seems like a recipe for disaster, to my eye.

And I'm not anti-men -- I'm just very aware of their basic natures. It's all about the ego, and if the ego isn't subject to a system of checks and balances ... stuff happens. [/*]

ITA...the group puts men in a position to pursue what normally would be judged a no-no. We had a neighbor's child who used to babysit for us show up at a pool party, and we hadn't seen her since she "grew up", to put it politely. My husband practically ran off screaming "MY EYES, MY EYES!" after he saw her in a bikini. He said there should be a law against children you knew showing up looking like that. :biggrin: To me THAT is how a grown man should respond

lunchlady

08-07-2008, 06:41 PM

I find it ironic that this group is trying to feel morally superior to the rest of the world, when it seems to be humming with awfulness. The maneuvering to get to be Favored Wife is probably pretty ugly, as someone else mentioned. I can imagine that I would be one of the wives home doing lots of heavy housework and childcare while some other showboat type lady would be doing all the public appearances and such. I'd be pregnant and tired all the time and she'd be off at a dinner party or FLDS meeting of some sort with her hair looking extra spiffy. Would I resent her? Probably, especially if I was wetnursing one of her babies. Vanity, competition, resentment, jealousy, and a sort of slavery built right in. I guess these aren't quite 10 commandment sins, but you can obey all those sommandments and still be pretty awful to be around.
The men are also fooling themselves about their virtuousness, IMO, and not just because of their sexual behavior.

I wonder if the bail money came from some non-FLDS Mormons. Al-Queda gets some of their money from non-extremist Muslims, with the rationale that they support them in priinciple even if they don't agree with all of their actions.

walton

08-07-2008, 07:22 PM

Originally posted by grammybear
Polygamy was never set up to promote paedophilia. This has been taken to a very far extreme. This is not religion this is nothing but the pure greed of some who want to completely control everybody in their enviroment. This to me is a very sick perverted way of life. I just cannot even imagine. It is no wonder that so many of the victims are like drones. They are told what to say and do. They have no power or control in their lives and unless something drastic happens this will just keep going on and on.

I was surprised they men were able to post bond considering that Willie was complaining about how hard it was to come up with the money. I wonder about this something is just not right. I guess time will tell.

jmoo [/*]

I don't know who all gets the Eldorado Success paper on line but I do. In the paper before this one there was an article stating that Richard Jessop son of Merril Jessop was trying to sell the county road base.

Richard Jessop is the one that appeared on MSNBC with Keith Morrison. At that time Richard was supposedly the school teacher. He must have started his own company The Texan Services. Couldn't find an EIN number for him though. I can't get my video player thing to work but if anyone remembers the comments Richard made to Keith Morrison (if my memory serves me right) he was appalled that such a thing should be happening. Abuse in his world? Never.

No one has said anything about these folks eyesight but they all sure could use a good pair of reality glasses. jmo.

Maybe they are selling bits and pieces to help out. ???

Concerning the Grandma compound it sure seemed like an awful lot of food they were canning. Maybe the Grandmas have a hearty appettite??? So I wonder if the Grandmas are in Colorado are the Grandpas in South Dakota?

http://myeldorado.net/

walton

08-07-2008, 07:48 PM

Originally posted by lotty
http://www.azstarnet.com/allheadlines/251704
Court: Polygamist had no right to sex with 'wife,' 16
By Howard Fischer
Capitol Media Services
Tucson, Arizona | Published: 08.07.2008
PHOENIX — Arizonans have no religious right to practice polygamy, at least not with minors, the state Court of Appeals has ruled. [/*]

Hey lotty check this out: http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2006/Aug-02-Wed-2006/news/8831757.html

A woman is asking an Arizona judge to spare her polygamous partner from incarceration when he is sentenced today in Kingman for having sex with her after she became his church- assigned "celestial wife" more than five years ago.

The 21-year-old woman, Jenny Steed Fischer, and about 140 other people have submitted character letters to the court urging leniency on behalf of Kelly Fischer, 37.

a little bit further into the article: That Jenny Fischer had sex with the legally married Kelly Fischer before she was of legal age was not contested at trial. The defense focused on the argument that prosecutors could not prove where any sexual relations had occurred, and thus the court did not have jurisdiction.

And.......Jenny Fischer's letter to Judge Steven F. Conn said that she met the defendant nine years ago.

"I've known Kelly since I was twelve years old; when he came to pick us up just before my mother's marriage to him," it said. "He has never mistreated me or forced me to do or believe anything against my will."

Kelly Fischer was spiritualy married to his legal wifes daughter
( his step daughter) and she became pregnant. She is wrote a letter to the Judge asking the courts to be lienant with her step father who is also the father to her children. So he is not only the father but step grandpa to his own kids.

And what did Judge Steven Conn do? He sentenced the bad boy to a whopping 45 days. 45 days. I still think someone should have rushed Conn to an emergency room when he fell on his head that morning. jmo

walton

08-07-2008, 08:03 PM

Originally posted by Roux

If Brooke Adams doesn't read his blog, she should! I'm grateful to you for posting the link; have read several of the comments over the past weeks.

Reading the excerpts from the motions, I had a picture in my mind's eye of those parents handing over 11 and 12 year old girls, and it made me barf . I have a 13 yr old granddaughter and cannot imagine standing by watching her be married to ANY man, regardless if he was 20, 30, 40, 50 or beyond. Too disgusting to contemplate. [/*]

Like I said I don't know who owns the site but this person is making me hungry for more. I enjoy the whole thing.

I think Merril and his other wives are just one family of many that prep their children for marriage. imo Trading on up. Sick. just sick.

juliekan

08-08-2008, 04:31 AM

I have to address Walton, our resident expert, but also our other regulars. I know that everyone wants to know who coramnonjudice is and I think he is the Texas bluesman that you see posting on other sites. Am I wrong? Just read some excellent posts by him on another site.
O/T sorry CW, but my daughter is fighting for a place on her volleyball team... it keeps her focused on her studies in school even though she is ADD, very important to her. Prayers asked (I know it is insignificant at our age, but she needs the help). Thanks, guys.

walton

08-08-2008, 05:15 AM

Originally posted by juliekan
I have to address Walton, our resident expert, but also our other regulars. I know that everyone wants to know who coramnonjudice is and I think he is the Texas bluesman that you see posting on other sites. Am I wrong? Just read some excellent posts by him on another site.
O/T sorry CW, but my daughter is fighting for a place on her volleyball team... it keeps her focused on her studies in school even though she is ADD, very important to her. Prayers asked (I know it is insignificant at our age, but she needs the help). Thanks, guys. [/*]

In my thoughts and prayers. If she wants to practice with an old grandma ex volley ball player send her my way. :)

Yup, I knew he was/is Texsbluesman. I don't need to know who he is in real life, just wanted to tell him I appreciate his knowledge. The kids are coming home in a couple of weeks and maybe I will have them show me how to respond on his blog. (They tried to show me how to work the VCR years ago but that never took. )

I am no expert but I do feel like a resident. :D

walton

08-08-2008, 05:21 AM

walton

08-08-2008, 06:09 AM

I found something.

I was off in google land and here is what I found:

http://dialoguejournal.metapress.com/media/cbttqmmywr7u3rjgvkwp/contributions/w/e/5/9/we59t0x40ttpm9v5.pdf

Short Creek a Refuge for Saints
by Marianne T. Watson

http://dialoguejournal.metapress.com/media/ha0kywtqlh29f40wmj13/contributions/q/7/6/0/q760877m12548351.pdf

The 1948 The Secret Marriage of Louis J. Barlow
Origins of FLDS Placement Marriage
by Marianne T.Watson

Both VERY interesting.

Roux

08-08-2008, 11:38 AM

Originally posted by Imperfect

Walton -- I think I remember the guy from the program. One of the male drones, IIRC, lying through his teeth in his slow, soft-spoken way.

I recall he and the interviewer were standing on a hilltop overlooking the ranch. Mr. Drone just loooooves it there.

Bet he does. :rolleyes: [/*]

I remember him very well. He refused to answer when Keith asked him how many wives he had. After the bishop's list was published, IIRC it revealed that he had 3 wives.

Did anyone hear any more about the young man who passed away? That was very sad and I'm sorry that he died at such a young age.

lunchlady

08-08-2008, 11:39 AM

Originally posted by Imperfect
Something tells me the money came from inside the FLDS, or if outside it, from raging 'constitutionalists' (my term) with their own agendas (which don't, by the way, take into consideration the wholesale infringement on the rights of FLDS women and children by the men of the sect). I've got to believe that mainstream Mormons are for the most part equally appalled at what's under the FLDS covers. At a minimum, I think we've seen evidence that the LDS wants it made perfectly clear they do not condone the criminal actions of the FLDS.

Lunchlady -- your 'if I were an FLDS wife' scenario made me chuckle. Believe it or not, according to 4th wife Carolyn, the craziness in Merril Jessop's household is even wilder than your imaginings. Because the women aren't allowed the usual feminine trappings, there isn't the 'normal' sort of competition as we'd understand it. In fact, Merril prefers wife #3 over all the others, despite the fact that she's older than many, and not especially good-looking by any description.

The competition among Jessop's wives is seriously ugly in that the only way they feel they can get a leg up is to completely trash one another to Merril. So there's constant spying, lying, posturing -- you name it.

Getting sex from the old fart is just part of the competition, believe it or not. As unappealing as the majority of his wives find him -- especially the younger ones -- they still compete for time in bed with him in order to try to cement a place for themselves in the hierarchy, and also to get pregnant as often as possible, because that's part of what elevates them in importance. (Supposedly.)

It's beyond bizarre. According to Carolyn, Merril loves the attention and the fact that he is the subject of squabbles among his wives. It feeds his ego big time. IMO, he'd be a good candidate for monogamy had he been raised out here among us heathens. His devotion to wife #3 would be quite workable out here, but inside the polygamist lifestyle, it has the opposite effect. The fact that he has several wives does nothing more than feed his most base instincts. He has no interest in caring for each of them individually. He doesn't have the capacity.

My guess is that inside the FLDS, there are more families like that than not. [/*]
Ugh.... The scene you describe above reminds me of a reporter's description of going to a brothel in Thailand and the very young girls all competing for his business, with a **** watching closely that they were all trying hard enough. He felt nauseated and left quickly, without getting hurt or robbed, but just barely. Anyway, setting up a situation where very young girls feel pressure to have sex with old farts is really gross. Nothing godly about that.

Roux

08-08-2008, 06:54 PM

Just when I thought I couldn't be any more disgusted, I read Brooke Adams blog for today.

Check out the second piece, "A Heavenly Comfort Wife," wherein she describes a letter written to Warren from his 12 year old bride. She wrote "...I am praying to become a Heavenly comfort wife for you..." It is just beyond sickening to read.

One cannot base a theological tenet entirely on one or two verses in the Bible, but there are two scripture references, Matt 22:30 and Mark 12:25, which say at the resurrection we will be like the angels and will neither marry nor be given in marriage. These could possibly make the case that there will be no comfort wives.

Jan Powell

08-08-2008, 10:41 PM

Originally posted by Roux

I'm a member of AARP so that tells you right there that I'm not so good at remembering facts, but the "papers" that the FLDS mothers were asked to sign were simply agreements to the criteria set forth by CPS for return of the children, weren't they? I don't recall that there was anything truly objectionable to REASONABLE people. Seems to me the attorney who advised her client not to sign was too wrapped up in possible criminal charges. Since we're not privy to all the documents involved, it is easy to miscontrue the situation on either the side of CPS or FLDS, IMO.

As far as the hearing being set in September, one would think that the state is being extremely careful to have everything in place so that there's no repeat of the first removal of children. [/*]

Yeah, me too on AARP rolls.

Yes, I think they are being careful and I want all of them convicted on any charge they are guilty of. Since the woman had counsel, I'm sure they were looking down the line trying to avoid her catching any criminal charges.

But I also think CPS overplayed their hand the first time. Whether it was in good faith or just power I'll let the future investigations decide.

No matter the end results, the children will pay the price for a bunch of adults.

walton

08-09-2008, 12:29 PM

http://polygamy.joshuahshouse.com/2007/11

Wow!! This guy is organized.

walton

08-10-2008, 01:40 AM

Originally posted by grammybear
Wow what a large amount of information at that website. I am also impressed with how he put all that information out there.
I hope Texas is taking it slow to make sure every person who has commited crimes within this group does pay for what they have done. It is so sad to think about all these children are in the crossfires of others who are depraved and do not give these children a chance in life. I think there have been baby steps taken up until now but I suspect this is all going to change.

jmoo [/*]

Yeah, isn't that cool? I just told TealMermaid that I had ordered a few books. I actually ordered two from Ken Sanders bookstore in Utah and the other three on line.

Had a very nice conversation with someone that works at that store. I did something that I've never done before and that was to have my book signed by Richard Turly. Silly me, I should have had him write a note to Walton. lol

When I was younger I thought I might like to write books but I enjoy reading soo much I don't want to take the fun away. My dad always said a book is never done until the last page is turned. I believe with this story the books will come in series.jmo

Too much.... Too many angles... and a long drawn out investigation.

I still believe in my heart that Texas did the right thing. I also believe that they will continue to do the right thing. :patriot:

It amazes me that people still think that the compound was like any other community. Even in the hills of the rich and famous if the authorities wanted to enter to investigate. the gatekeeper would allow them in. This was not like any other community. jmo

walton

08-10-2008, 02:36 AM

I don't know how they could NOT bring charges against some of these women. If this was a drug dealer selling drugs out of the home and the mother knew all along that she was putting her child at risk she would be charged.

Let alone the trading on up angle. For example: Greedy daddy wants a house in the hills with 2 extra bathrooms and he is willing to give his 12 year old daughter to the dirty old man living 1 floor down. Mom goes along with it for what ever reason.

I guess I don't care what the reason they try to justify such actions. If it is for their salvation, a better spot in their kingdom it is all for selfish reasons.

The woman in the drug story gets charged and so should these women.

I wonder if some of the "widowed Grandmas" from the Grandma compound aren't Rulons widows and some of Warrens newly spiritual wives? One of the comments on Brookes or Trents blog was from a woman who had not seen her mother in some time.

lunchlady

08-10-2008, 05:00 PM

FLDS is an example of Scripture being used to justify abuse and control of others, for base purposes. Its frustrating that this ever works at all, but I guess most of us like being led, even if its the Pied Piper taking us who knows where.

Women have helped perpetrate and perpetuate all sorts of bad things, including the still current custom of female circumcision. Many of these bad things I'm thinking of are specifically bad for women, IMO, such as the virginity cult and honor killings.

walton

08-11-2008, 06:15 PM

Is it still on? I am getting the Guantanamo Bay Detainees program.

LLaFren

08-11-2008, 07:55 PM

hey guys :seeya: I haven't been around much lately to post, my boss thinks she get's all my attention from 8-5, and my daughter decided to have her baby 3 weeks early (I'm a first time grandma and I still haven't wrapped my head around that, my heart though, that's another matter), thanks for all the updates, I'm going back to read upthread and see what I've missed the last 2 weeks...

LL

walton

08-12-2008, 12:48 AM

:rose: For the new grandma! Start writing to the grandbaby. Someone on this board showed me a book you can do on-line. You can share your life and history.

I didn't see anything on Cspan other that what I mentioned. But I was digging around and saw this: http://www.booktv.org/about.aspx Now isn't that cool? I gotta start checking some of this stuff out.

Is CSpan a part of this message board outfit?

juliekan

08-12-2008, 03:37 AM

The 1878 Reynold's court decision still stands against polygamy. This is posted on the sltrib.com site, that *.a. blogs on. This said I am on topic. Right? LLa, congrats!!!!!!!!!! And my sister-in-law has taken pictures with her camera and added words and made these beautiful keepsake books, like Walton was talking about. If you need a hook-up, I can connect you two, and she could tell you how to do it. Thank God, computer illiterate I am, they didn't have it when my kids were little. Again :beer: on the new addition.

LLaFren

08-12-2008, 08:28 AM

Thanks for all the good wishes! He was a whopper (8lbs 13oz) and he and my daughter are both doing well!

Getting back to the subject...

Anybody else see this yet?

Texas widens FLDS probe
Rangers investigating 20 cases of sex abuse, 50 bigamy counts

Texas Rangers are investigating 20 cases of sexual assault and about 50 bigamy charges involving members of the FLDS Church, the Deseret News has learned.
Texas officials on Monday confirmed the number of open cases but would not say how many suspects were involved.

The rest of the article is here:

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700250157,00.html

juliekan

08-12-2008, 01:24 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by LLaFren
Thanks for all the good wishes! He was a whopper (8lbs 13oz) and he and my daughter are both doing well!

Getting back to the subject...

Anybody else see this yet?

Texas widens FLDS probe
Rangers investigating 20 cases of sex abuse, 50 bigamy counts

Texas Rangers are investigating 20 cases of sexual assault and about 50 bigamy charges involving members of the FLDS Church, the Deseret News has learned.
Texas officials on Monday confirmed the number of open cases but would not say how many suspects were involved.

The rest of the article is here:

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700250157,00.html [/*][/QUOTE

Rod Parker needs to re-read the Texas Bigamy Statute...he doesn't seem to think bigamy can be charged because these marriages were by consent.
He also insists there aren't enough men practicing polygamy to come up with 50 charges. If you look at the comments below this article, Gal50 does the math.

walton

08-12-2008, 08:17 PM

From the Deseret news link:

"This is completely different. Here we are talking about people who are consenting and know what they are doing," Parker told the Deseret News. "It's hard to see where the crime is."

Hard to see where the crime is?

I say look again Rod my boy. Man I would love to talk to him and Shurtleff. Rod is the spokesperson for the FLDS? Where is Willieboy? (Not that I think he should be a spokesperson for the FLDS.) Is Willies name on the list?

Who is paying Rod?

http://www.answers.com/topic/bigamy

Bigamy- crime of marrying during the continuance of a lawful marriage. Bigamy is not committed if a prior marriage has been terminated by a divorce or a decree of nullity of marriage. In the United States if a husband or wife is absent and unheard of for seven (or in some states five) years and not known to be alive, he or she is presumed dead, and remarriage by the other spouse is not bigamous. It is not necessarily a defense to a charge of bigamy that the offending party believed in good faith that he was divorced or that his previous marriage was not lawful.

The women should be charged as well. jmo

What about the children that haven't yet matched up to either parent? Who is watching them?

Not one person has yet explained how these people made their monies.

walton

08-13-2008, 02:40 AM

Rod Parker:

http://www.scmlaw.com/index.php?page_id=35&page_cat_id=2

His name is on the list.

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700245096,00.html

Snow, Christensen & Martineau acted as the FLDS Church's legal counsel from 1987-2004. It helped incorporate the church and the UEP Trust.

http://deseretnews.com/article/0,1249,700233035,00.html

The law firm's association with the church goes back nearly 20 years. (The FLDS Church does not have any lawyers among its members. Doctors, nurses and lots of EMTs but no lawyers, Parker said.)

and further into this article: Parker and the church parted ways about three years ago because it decided not to contest two lawsuits — one by the so-called "Lost Boys" who were kicked out of community and a sexual abuse claim by now-jailed FLDS leader Warren Jeffs' nephew, Brent Jeffs. Parker believed the suits were defensible. Both were settled out of court last year.

I wonder how the firm Rod Parker works for feels about him being a spokesperson for a group that the firm no longer works for?

:shrug:

juliekan

08-13-2008, 12:05 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Imperfect

Woohoo ... more charges in the works! :beer:

It wasn't nearly so painful reading the comments to this most recent article. It seems to be about equally divided between those who think the FLDS should be held accountable, and members of the Polygamist Pedophile Support Group. [/*][/QUOTE

I believe this info was from an APRIL e-mail per an article in the Salt Lake Trib today. That e-mail was just released per a request due to the open records act. So that would make them the original estimate of how many charges might occur, not new charges.
Grand Jury reconvenes next week, we'll see what happens.

juliekan

08-13-2008, 12:29 PM

http://coramnonjudice.blogspot.com/

Number of FLDS Cases Being Investigated

This article makes the case for charging the women with bigamy

"Which is it? Are they victims, and thus should not be charged(i.e., forced into marriages against their will), or did they marry of their own free will(and are thereby committing a felony)?....you can't have it both ways."

Check out the article sited in this article "Never take a job as a clerk in an adult bookstore". They think they will eventually get to the men, THROUGH the women. I think the men may leave the women out on that precarious limb....there are always more women. :mad:

lotty

08-13-2008, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by juliekan
http://coramnonjudice.blogspot.com/

Number of FLDS Cases Being Investigated

This article makes the case for charging the women with bigamy

"Which is it? Are they victims, and thus should not be charged(i.e., forced into marriages against their will), or did they marry of their own free will(and are thereby committing a felony)?....you can't have it both ways."

Check out the article sited in this article "Never take a job as a clerk in an adult bookstore". They think they will eventually get to the men, THROUGH the women. I think the men may leave the women out on that precarious limb....there are always more women. :mad: [/*]
JMO...This is merely a guess, Rod Parker keeps bringing up consent. My thought is consent sets bigamy up differently in Utah. A Desert Morning News article I read, basically says Shurtleff will only go after "polygamy" if it includes sexual assault or fraud as felonies (IIRC). To my mind this means they will go after polygamy/bigamy if one party doesn't know the other party is already married, hence fraud (I could be completely wrong.) This seems to me why Parker and the FLDS are consistently bringing up that these are consentual relationships. This doesn't however quite make it from what I understand of Texas statute concerning minors and bigamy.

An after thought...I'm really sick of the religious persecution argument. If they have free will, and they obviously know polygamy, underage marriage, etc., etc., etc. are illegal. Then how are they being persecuted. If the beliefs are illegal, then choose not to practice them. If they don't have free will ie. Elissa Wall, forced into the marriage and not allowed to be released from the marriage, then they don't have free will. As always JMO/IMO

lunchlady

08-13-2008, 03:34 PM

I like the Can't Have it Both Ways argument.
What the FLDS folks really want it to be left alone and for the government to keep its nose out of their business, even if that business includes statutory rape and welfare fraud etc, but since they are actually breaking the law they have to answer to the authorities finally. Too bad the authorities didn't get around to sticking their nose in sooner before there were so many children involved, and the children had been having children and so forth. Now its very expensive to sort it all out. But I think its important to keep up the legal pressure on these people.
I think the women need to be placed into the real world whether they like it or not, and one way to do that is to get them working in the outside world somehow. Your average citizen doesn't feel like they can have maximum children without financial stress- they shouldn't either.

Roux

08-13-2008, 04:31 PM

ITA as to communal living. I well remember Woodstock, back to the earth movements, etc. so am not completely unaware of those social experiments.
One of the fundamental things I cannot understand about polygamy is communal living. I was married for 26 yrs to my soul mate; love at first sight at age 15, and still got butterflies in my stomach when I looked at him the day he passed away. There is no way in he!! that I would ever have shared him physically, emotionally, or spiritually. IMO, God created Adam and Eve -- not Adam, Eve, Lucy & Ethel, Thelma & Louise. It is easy enough to understand the jealousy, back biting, and other tensions in FLDS households. I feel sorry for those women that few, if any, of them have a true and pure experience of what God intended between a man and a woman.

(O/T that last phrase reminded me: Andy Garcia was so hot in When a Man Loves a Woman.:D )

juliekan

08-13-2008, 05:35 PM

I guess I missed this, but I just read that the hearing about possibly placing the 8 flds children in foster care has been moved up from Sept 25 to Aug 18th. Makes sense, if they think the kids might need to be in foster care, why leave the court hearing for so much later?

juliekan

08-13-2008, 06:00 PM

Deseret News on Aug. 8th also reported that 32 children (of 4 mothers) have been "nonsuited", ie, there is no suit against them now since there is no evidence of child abuse, and/or the parents have taken sufficient steps to protect their children from abuse. I guess they completed the course and complied with the family plan that was set up by CPS. GOOD FOR THEM!

Once again, apologies if all this has been covered.

juliekan

08-13-2008, 06:11 PM

Originally posted by Imperfect

<snipped>
Men are not really wired to be relationship experts to begin with, so I can imagine the chaos, confusion and hurt feelings that no doubt exist in a lot of the FLDS families. [/*]

That is SOOOO the truth. Good thing I'm not flds, I would have made the other wives lives a living he!!

Roux

08-13-2008, 06:34 PM

Originally posted by Imperfect

Roux -- congratulations on such a long marriage. I'm sorry your hubby had to leave you too soon.

My personal story is very different from yours, but like you, it'd be a cold day in Hades before I'd agree to throw open the doors of my marriage or relationship to Lucy, Ethel, Thelma and Louise (LOL).

Given human nature, not only is that set up a recipe for disaster among the women, but I really, REALLY think it's a lousy idea to allow the male ego to rage unchecked like that.

What is the incentive for Ricky or Fred to work on his relationship with Lucy, if Ethel, Thelma and Louise are ready, willing and able to cater to whatever whim it is Lucy's having difficulty with?

Men are not really wired to be relationship experts to begin with, so I can imagine the chaos, confusion and hurt feelings that no doubt exist in a lot of the FLDS families. [/*]

OMG that is so funny! I can just see Fred "now Ethel honey what's wrong? Wanna talk about it?"

I've not had much experience with men but from I see, an awful lot of them are ruled by you-know-which head. John Edwards just the latest in a long line. I guess I've been blessed that my soul mate and the man in my life now are not that kind. LOL as far as I know!!

walton

08-13-2008, 06:49 PM

walton

08-13-2008, 07:01 PM

Originally posted by Imperfect

So Parker wanted to take that mess to a jury and even the FLDS knew better? Seriously?

Think we better do a 'wives' count on Parker -- both the number and their ages. [/*]

Doesn't make any sense does it? The firm Rod works for is very well known in the Utah tri state area.

According to Rod Parkers eyesight it is ok for a 12 year old to "consent" to a "spiritual marriage".

It is also ok for the parents of this child to "witness" this union.

If Rod Parker shuts his eyes, blinks twice and stands on one foot with his hands reached to the skies if it is ok that this same 12 year old consented to driving a get away car during a bank robbery?

Should the courts overlook those kinds of crimes?

Yet this same child could not legally get her ears peirced, drive a car, work at a job, go to certain movies or even get a library card.
But she can consent to getting married?

walton

08-14-2008, 12:10 AM

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=4007493

Allen Glade Steed, now 26, is charged with one count of first-degree felony rape for his sexual relationship with Elissa Wall after the couple married in 2001 religious ceremony. She was 14 and he was 19, and both were members of Jeffs' Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Steed's attorney, Jim Bradshaw, said Wednesday that plea negotiations with the Washington County attorney's office in St. George ended recently without an agreement.

A 5th District Court hearing where a judge will determine if prosecutors have enough evidence for a trial is scheduled for Oct. 22. If convicted, Steed could spend the rest of his life in prison.

Plea agreement?

"Could spend the rest of his life in prison."

juliekan

08-14-2008, 01:07 AM

Originally posted by walton
"Could spend the rest of his life in prison." [/*]

Not even I want this...this young man was raised this way and did what he was told to do. He was still a teenager (19) when this happened. Go pick on the old goats that have perpetuated this.

walton

08-14-2008, 08:07 AM

I really don't want to see the guy in prison for the rest of his life either.

But I remember him being on stand and under oath saying that he believed everything Warren Jeffs taught/said/whisper/droned about. And still believes in HIM.

Unless he realizes that there is an "outside" world he will continue to do as he has been taught.

Looking at a life sentence- and maybe even spending sometime in one of Arizonas finest he just might find out that he needs to educate himself with the laws and start to think for himself.

lunchlady

08-14-2008, 11:11 AM

First degree felony rape is a big deal, so he has to go to prison. If he's well behaved he can get paroled before he's dead or decreipt. If he doesn't like the prison environment too bad. If you want to stay out of prison then don't commit felonies.
The old goats are the puppet masters, but the puppets are accountable for their actions too, as much as the SS prison guards.
Those old goats are starting to get theirs, and they should all get maximally charged with whatever the law can charge them with. Coordinating and requiring the 19 year old and other men to make sex happen no matter what is super creepy and deserves ample punishment, as Mr. Jeffs has been dished up with

Roux

08-14-2008, 05:44 PM

Originally posted by walton
I really don't want to see the guy in prison for the rest of his life either.

But I remember him being on stand and under oath saying that he believed everything Warren Jeffs taught/said/whisper/droned about. And still believes in HIM.

Unless he realizes that there is an "outside" world he will continue to do as he has been taught.

Looking at a life sentence- and maybe even spending sometime in one of Arizonas finest he just might find out that he needs to educate himself with the laws and start to think for himself. [/*]

I don't want to see him in prision for the rest of his life. I do vaguely remember him on the stand and haven't read Elissa's book yet so don't know what details she revealed as to his treatment of her. I know she didn't like him at all.

He should serve some time and have to register as a sex offender which will haunt him for years. Maybe going to prison would be a good thing -- many a man has met the Lord in jail.

juliekan

08-14-2008, 05:54 PM

Originally posted by Roux

--- many a man has met the Lord in jail. [/*]

And if not the one you are referring to, the one he has been following, Jeffs, may be in the next cell....

walton

08-15-2008, 03:27 AM

http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/ Check out the comments made after her entry: Wednesday, August 13, 2008
Debating the mini-Manifesto

*** Warning ***

Must have 1. shovel
2. Hip waders
3. both 1 and 2
4. Good google skills to better appreciate my warning.

Oy. What is wrong with people? There really should be an icon of Walton (me) banging her head against the wall.

walton

08-15-2008, 03:33 AM

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700250890,00.html

Judge Denise Lindberg, who for three years has been overseeing attempts to untangle the intricate financial and ownership affairs of a religious organization, reassured one of its leaders Thursday that she has no religious prejudices and wants to see a fair distribution of property.
Willie Jessop, a spokesman for the Fundamentalist LDS Church, stood up in court at what was intended to be a routine update on the progress of the undertaking and asked the 3rd District judge to clarify a remark Jessop said he heard in which Lindberg allegedly said she would never allow FLDS people to own property.

I really like Judge Lindberg and Bruce Wissan. :)

Jessop, who spoke in court informally at first and then under oath, said he had been told by Wisan that Lindberg had announced no FLDS would ever own property.

Wisan denied that he or the judge had ever said that.

"He must have a faulty memory," Wisan said about Jessop.

Wisan said the two men met previously and Wisan explained there were two ways the properties could be distributed: through a sort of homeowner's association that would have certain communal aspects that some people in the area apparently want, or through a special trust that would provide individuals with property but would restrict that person from giving it to a new United Effort Plan, or "UEP 2," which would spark the same types of legal disputes all over again.

"He did not like that," Wisan said.

And of course the Jessop Wissan is talking about is Willie.
:D

walton

08-15-2008, 03:37 AM

Originally posted by Roux

I don't want to see him in prision for the rest of his life. I do vaguely remember him on the stand and haven't read Elissa's book yet so don't know what details she revealed as to his treatment of her. I know she didn't like him at all.

He should serve some time and have to register as a sex offender which will haunt him for years. Maybe going to prison would be a good thing -- many a man has met the Lord in jail. [/*]

Registering as a sex offender in a community that has done little to keep sex offenders OUT of jail really isn't going to bother him much. Judges giving 45 day jail time, sex offenders "calling in " to their probation officers is less than a slap on the wrist. jmo

walton

08-15-2008, 03:43 AM

Good article Ben.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700250895,00.html

In court papers, attorneys for the FLDS men argued that the $100,000-per-charge bail was excessive and they surrendered themselves once they became aware they had been indicted.

The April 3 raid on the YFZ Ranch, where hundreds of children were placed in state custody, made it difficult for the men to earn enough money to post bail. They had to travel great distances to visit their children, disrupting their ability to earn a living.

"As a consequence and in order to provide for his family, defendant has had to depend on donations from friends, family and fellow church members," Abilene attorney Randy Wilson wrote in court papers filed with the cases.

Hmmm I wonder if these same men stood in line to give DNA to the authorites to claim those children?

Hmmm I wonder what these same men did for a living before the "interuption"?

walton

08-15-2008, 05:57 PM

http://coramnonjudice.blogspot.com/

TxBluesman does it again. :) Says it like it is and doesn't pull any punches.

I found out I could respond on this blog. I don't have to be a blogger. :D

Roux

08-18-2008, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by walton

Registering as a sex offender in a community that has done little to keep sex offenders OUT of jail really isn't going to bother him much. Judges giving 45 day jail time, sex offenders "calling in " to their probation officers is less than a slap on the wrist. jmo [/*]

You're right Walton. I was thinking in terms of Allen being in a normal community, with the public's responses to sex offenders; name posted on the internet, where he can live, access to schools, parks, etc.

Do you think people are aware of those judges that you have told us about? Some of those sentences have been disgraceful.

walton

08-18-2008, 12:31 PM

From the clipper today.

http://www.clippertoday.com/print_this_story.asp?smenu=1&sdetail=28317

Heidi: We’ve never really been secretive. We’re just living our lives like everyone else. We serve on the safety net and meet with the Utah Attorney General’s office. We have a website, www.communitiesinharmony.com. A lot of people think we have this one theme of polygamy. Everything is a choice. Our community is designed for choice. We believe everyone can all get along and work together. We don’t live in little secular neighborhoods.

Heidi, everyone else doesn't have 50 plus wives and 110 children.

Everything is a choice?

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/8283/polygamist-sentenced-to-public-service
In June, Valdez ruled that two daughters, ages 13 and 15, who allegedly had been threatened with beatings for getting their ears pierced, and eight siblings, had been abused and neglected by their father and their mother had been negligent in protecting them.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20050113/ai_n11499594

"Ms. Mattingly won't change, so why should everybody in this courtroom try to change her?" Nichols asked. "It's futile and the children are at risk."

The court found that Mattingly hit children in the face until they bled, usually from the nose or mouth, has hit babies as young as 6 months old, hit one boy in the back with a broom, and ridiculed them and called them names.

Mattingly has been ordered by the court to stay away from the clan and John Daniel Kingston, as well as get individual therapy as well as counseling aimed at victims of domestic violence. The court found that Mattingly also has been physically abused and intellectually controlled by both John Daniel Kingston and the group itself.

Nichols stated that Mattingly's admission under oath that she would return to the clan tomorrow if given the chance shows that nothing has changed.

walton

08-18-2008, 12:39 PM

Originally posted by Roux

You're right Walton. I was thinking in terms of Allen being in a normal community, with the public's responses to sex offenders; name posted on the internet, where he can live, access to schools, parks, etc.

Do you think people are aware of those judges that you have told us about? Some of those sentences have been disgraceful. [/*]

Morning Roux,

Aware of the Judges? Judges like Steven Conn who sentences people to 45 days?

Well I am doing my part. I've got a big mouth and I've been telling as many as I can.

If Allen were to get a slap on the wrist, he would do again what Warren asked/expected him to do when he married Elisa. Without question. jmo But he isn't the only one. The "followers" all would do as asked or risk being cast out either from the compound or the Kingdom.

If Willie told Allen that Warren said to jump Allen would ask how high?

juliekan

08-18-2008, 03:54 PM

State Seeks Removal of 8 Children

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/aug/18/state-seeks-removal-of-8-children

FLDS Hearing Recessed For Possible Deals

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/aug/18/flds-hearing-recessed-for-possible-deals/

Rios again objected to the documents, saying he has the right to review all the documents from which the individual pieces were excerpted, under a rule designed to protect defendants from cherry picked evidence.

Walther responded by noting the rule allows for the admission of other documents, not just the review, and asked Rios whether he wanted all the documents seized during the weeklong raid of the ranch introduced into the public record.

Walther then calls for a lunch break during which Rios can think about what he wants to do. :lol: Be careful what you wish for....you just might get it

FYI: Rios is Barbara Jessop's attorney.
Dr. Barlow's case comes up next

juliekan

08-18-2008, 04:09 PM

FLDS Hearing Held in Closed Court

http://deseretnews.com/article/content/mobile/1,5620,700251275,00.html

A hearing on a motion to quash a subpoena was held Friday. No info on who it regards due to matters for the grand jury being secret. Hmmmmmmmm.....wonder who?

juliekan

08-18-2008, 04:19 PM

Originally posted by walton
http://coramnonjudice.blogspot.com/

TxBluesman does it again. :) Says it like it is and doesn't pull any punches.

I found out I could respond on this blog. I don't have to be a blogger. :D [/*]

He's terrifically direct, and correct IMO

Roux

08-18-2008, 05:57 PM

Originally posted by juliekan

He's terrifically direct, and correct IMO [/*]

Guess I'm way behind on pertinent personages, but who the heck is that Regina EricKson person? I wanted to reach thru my screen and slap her! How opinionated and out-of-touch can one be? No way that woman should be an advocate for victims and/or children.

Roux

08-18-2008, 06:11 PM

This is probably a very stupid question but I trust my buddies here to overlook my ignorance and enlighten me.

Regarding Warren, why is he in JAIL in AZ awaiting trial on those AZ charges; why is he not in PRISON in Utah until AZ is ready to go? Jail seems easier than prison and IMO he shouldn't have anything made easier for him.

juliekan

08-18-2008, 06:15 PM

Roux

08-18-2008, 06:23 PM

Originally posted by juliekan

Here, Roux

http://terramama.blogspot.com/2008/07/nightmares-friends-and-bad-choices.html

she may only be pertinent to his article because that is the same reaction he had to her blog. :) [/*]

thanks juliekan. (O/T how's volleyball going? Both my granddaughters play club and @ school.)

On the San Angelo article you posted, I had to think how ironic that Judge Walther over ruled Barbara's attorney, on his claim about the seized material, saying it wasn't her home. Isn't that rich, since at the beginning they wanted to be considered separate households!

juliekan

08-18-2008, 06:26 PM

Originally posted by Roux

thanks juliekan. (O/T how's volleyball going? Both my granddaughters play club and @ school.)

On the San Angelo article you posted, I had to think how ironic that Judge Walther over ruled Barbara's attorney, on his claim about the seized material, saying it wasn't her home. Isn't that rich, since at the beginning they wanted to be considered separate households! [/*]

Once again, "you can't have it both ways."
VB going good, thanks.

juliekan

08-18-2008, 07:52 PM

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/aug/18/flds-hearing-recessed-for-possible-deals/

FLDS Matriarch Pleads Fifth Amendment 50 times

:flamemad:

walton

08-19-2008, 12:36 AM

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700251690,00.html

Among those who could be witnesses at the contentious hearing: the woman who allegedly made hoax calls that sparked the raid on the polygamous sect's property in west Texas. Rozita Swinton's name appears on a list of potential witnesses subpoenaed for either testimony or documents, according to court records obtained by the Deseret News.

I am really curious as to who else is on the list.

Would it really make a difference as to what Rozita would have to say? Didn't they say she had a split personality? Which personality would they ask the questions?

Hoax or not.... It is what they saw once they got in. Tis the law.

:patriot: Just love them Texans!!

walton

08-19-2008, 12:44 AM

Originally posted by Roux
This is probably a very stupid question but I trust my buddies here to overlook my ignorance and enlighten me.

Regarding Warren, why is he in JAIL in AZ awaiting trial on those AZ charges; why is he not in PRISON in Utah until AZ is ready to go? Jail seems easier than prison and IMO he shouldn't have anything made easier for him. [/*]

Not a stupid question. Is Warren really in the Arizona jail? One of the papers showed a picture of a person entering the jail. They said it was Warren but it sure didn't look like Warren.

I haven't seen hide nor hair of Warren since the cameras were shut off once he was found guilty in Judge Shumates courtroom. Judge Shumate ran a good trial. He did his job and he did it well.jmo

Maybe the Feds took over and they are doing the Witness Protection thing??? With Warren being the witness?

walton

08-19-2008, 12:59 AM

Originally posted by Roux

Guess I'm way behind on pertinent personages, but who the heck is that Regina EricKson person? I wanted to reach thru my screen and slap her! How opinionated and out-of-touch can one be? No way that woman should be an advocate for victims and/or children. [/*]

IMO Texbluesman is right on the money with his thoughts and words about Regina Erickson. She is NOT a victims advocate. And imo she is NOT a professional. If she studies the behaviour of children she should have been able to put a few things together with the FLDS. She didn't. She couldn't. She never will. She doesn't know beans about human behaviour. Again jmo.

Google Regina Erickson Pennsilvania and some of the names that were mentioned on Brookes blog.

juliekan

08-19-2008, 04:34 AM

Hearings make halting progress

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/aug/19/hearings-make-halting-progress/

Before responding to the events of the day, sect spokesman Willie Jessop - who is not closely related to Merril Jessop or his wives - walked out of the Tom Green Courthouse with Carolyn Jessop's 19 year old daughter, Betty, who willingly returned to the sect and lives with her father. "That's why we have tomorrow," Willie Jessop said of the testimony. "Carolyn's daughter is here. We'll see what she has to say."

Silly me, first thing I wonder is why Willie is dissassociating himself from "Merril Jessop or his wives." DUH :punch:

And I love that he wants to hear what Betty Jessop wants to say.......I would love to hear what Barbara Jessop would say if she didn't invoke the 5th 50 times.

juliekan

08-19-2008, 05:28 AM

An article that quotes some of the questions Barbara Jessop could not answer.

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,513,700252024,00.html?pg=1

Oh, and no, Merril Jessop was not present in court today even though his wife and children's future are at stake.

:o nevermind, he has others..........

walton

08-19-2008, 07:53 AM

Originally posted by juliekan
Hearings make halting progress

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/aug/19/hearings-make-halting-progress/

Before responding to the events of the day, sect spokesman Willie Jessop - who is not closely related to Merril Jessop or his wives - walked out of the Tom Green Courthouse with Carolyn Jessop's 19 year old daughter, Betty, who willingly returned to the sect and lives with her father. "That's why we have tomorrow," Willie Jessop said of the testimony. "Carolyn's daughter is here. We'll see what she has to say."

Silly me, first thing I wonder is why Willie is dissassociating himself from "Merril Jessop or his wives." DUH :punch:

And I love that he wants to hear what Betty Jessop wants to say.......I would love to hear what Barbara Jessop would say if she didn't invoke the 5th 50 times. [/*]

So.... Betty returned to the sect to live with her father. That means Merril is at the Ranch? Why wasn't he brought into court or is that going to happen later?

Is Willie living at the Ranch? Who is paying Willie? Who is paying for the trucks that they drive? Who is paying Rod Parker?

Did they get the contract from the county?

When Rulon died, Warren married his fathers wives. IF Warren isn't the Prophet as they say, who is caring for his wives? Did they hitch up with Willie?

walton

08-19-2008, 08:17 AM

Originally posted by Imperfect

So do you think the trip to the hospital in Vegas was a ruse? If so, what would be the reason?

:confused: [/*]

http://www.nypost.com/seven/07092008/news/nationalnews/warren_jeffs_found_convulsive_in_jail_119157.htm

Jeffs was first taken from jail to Kingman Regional Medical Center, and then flown by medical helicopter about 100 miles to Las Vegas.

Two Mohave County sheriff's deputies and four detention officers were assigned to the Las Vegas hospital to protect Jeffs and prevent escape, Carter said. She said she knew of no threats against Jeffs.

Jeffs supposedly was in Vegas for a day. Now what could this hospital do that Kingmans Medical Center couldn't?

In the article it said Jeffs was found"in a weakened state of health, acting in a convulsive manner, shaking, and running a fever," said Trish Carter, spokeswoman for Mohave County Sheriff Tom Sheahan.

I wonder if he had any "visitors" while he was in this hospital?

Yes, I think it is all fishy. jmo

And as everyone knows Walton loves to go fishing.

tophound

08-19-2008, 11:36 AM

I have just joined this forum, but I've been closely following the events on other forums, including Brooke Adams blog, and Grits for Breakfast.
It seems that the seizure of all of the documents was based on an improper warrant. Both local authorities and the Texas Rangers had more than enough time (five days) to verify the veracity of the phone calls from Swinton. Even if they couldn't specifically identify her, they could have back traced the calls from the recieving numbers and known clearly that the calls originated outside of Texas.
Further, they knew as soon as they were admitted to the ranch, even if they hadn't known previously, which is doubful because several, including the sherriff had been there on other occasions, that there were independent living units. Not one big communal set-up. It's no different than if they had the same anonymous call from some person saying she was in a big apartment house in Houston, or Timbuktoo, and they went in and knocked down the doors of every apartment in the building and searched everyone of them.
I don't think the evidence will stand up on appeal.
Anything will stand up in Barbie's court because she has decided that the FLDS are not worth the protection of the Court.

tophound

08-19-2008, 11:45 AM

From what I have read on other blogs, several of the FLDS members, after a great deal of personal angst, finally recounted their memories of Carolyn's time with the FLDS in a petition that was submitted to COngress. They tell a very different story than what Carolyn tells. From what I have read all over the blogs and web sites, the FLDS are very, very private people who believe in forgiveness most of all. They keep to themselves, probably because they have been so, so persecuted. But they did understand, finally, that they had to speak up in the face of what seems like the whole world taking the word of a few angry ex-members.
Remember, Flora, who even others like Carolyn have distanced themselves from, was at the heart of the initial hoax calls and had formed a strong "friendship" with the local sherriff for several years.
But I think people need to look for the truth as lying somewhere in between the angry zealots on the one side and the extremely defensive FLDS members.
And people need to look at the fact that CPS and child welfare agencies all over the country are a mess. Many, many cases of over stepping occur all the time. The feds are just beginning to crack down on them. And Texas is especially bad. They have had problems long before this.

debinNC

08-19-2008, 12:21 PM

I don't think you need to look very far to see the truth about the FLDS:

http://slog.thestranger.com/files/2008/05/Warren_jeffs_052608_FRESH.jpg

tophound

08-19-2008, 12:30 PM

I think it's pretty scary stuff when anyone feels they can judge a group of 10,000 by the actions of one.
Warren Jeffs and this young woman are clearly betrothed. No FLDS man would EVER kiss a female in this way, otherwise. However, "betrothed" and having a consumated marriage are not the same thing. Clearly, a girl so young should not be either betrothed, or married. But this is one incident. The press originally said that CPS found 'many' underage marriages. Fact is, there are fewer underage marriages in their church than general society. And way, way fewer incidents of teenage pregnancy than the general population. And zero STDs and healthy births and babies. Which is not the case in teen pregnancies in general.
And they have recently committed to no future underage marriages, at all.
We have all sorts of perverts that are really hurting children, everyday. It's too bad Texas isn't using some of its money to catch and prosecute them. There are other ways to be effective in working with an entire community than putting on a circus.

walton

08-19-2008, 12:55 PM

Hi topdog and welcome to the board.

Is there a caller ID at the location of where the original call was recieved?

I don't know about other areas but in this area the local LE and the Domestic Violence Center are located at two different places.

Many times the LE doesn't even get involved in the calls made to the Center.

As far as the "seperate units" it really didn't make much difference. They were looking for Sara and the men at the gate said there was NO Sara. That proved to be a false statement. There were lots of Saras. Maybe if the group at the gate wouldn't have hemmed and hawed so long they might have been able to take care of this at the gate. Don't you think?

Where/Are the homes clearly identified? Jones lives here. Jessops live there? If there was a fire and they called the firehouse would the firetruck be able to enter the gates and locate the Jessops living at building 3 at I.*. Somewhere Road ?

The comment made about the FLDS being very private is true. It is interesting that you say speak up, I was just thinking that at the times they should say something they are either pleading the 5th or they are sidestepping all questions. Maybe if they were to just start being truthful and forthcoming this could end sooner. Just a thought.

I disagree with the comment that they are a forgiving people. One or hundreds of very good examples are the Boys and girls that have been left aside the road. Told to leave. Made to feel that they should leave.

Another example is Warren and even his Dad casting out men from the group only to have their wives and children assigned to other men.

I would think that they could forgive a 12 year old boy for not having his shoes tied. Or the great sin of having their shirt sleeves rolled up.

As far as Flora having a "friendship" with Sheriff Doran. I really can't see that it would make a difference. If you have read about Doran you would see that he takes his job serious. And I am sure he has many other friends. I am almost quite certain that even Flora has close friends. I like her strength and determination.

I am quite positive that a persons memory of certain events might differ. Carolyn Jessop vs Barb Jessop. Two people two different sets of eyes. But there really does seem to be a trend with the stories told don't you agree?

I don't know first hand the problems Texas has with CPS. I do agree that the system could be greatly improved. But CPS isn't the only system that needs work. It is quite apparent following this story that our local governments need a Big Brother so to speak. Look at all the troubles in the Utah/Arizona area monitering or lack of monitering this situation. Yup, I must say the whole thing needs a good housecleaning. From the top on down.

There are many more stories out there that are being told. And those stories have been told long before the Raid. Long before anyone starting writing books. Their stories fell on deaf ears in the Utah and Arizona area. They went to their Law Enforcement. They went to their local Politicans. Their cries and their pleas were left unanswered.

If you were to watch the film Banking on Heaven you will see/hear the voices of just some of the women and men that have for so many years tried to tell their stories. Listen to Ruths voice. A person can't fake the pain that she feels so deep inside.

Listen to Penny. Pam. Ruths brother. Lenora. Sadly there are sooo many just like them. Years later and you can still hear their pain. If you listen. :(

If it takes writing a book or books to make people listen, I say all the more power to them if they get money for telling their story. It sure doesn't look like the women or children will get any support from these spineless men that fathered those children. jmo

It sure doesn't look like our Politicans cared in Utah. Nor did they care enough in Arizona. Governor Pyle had the right idea years ago. jmo

I think Texas has done a fine job. I also think the Judge is doing a dang good job. At our local courthouse they have troubles running one court and 15 defendants. I can't imaging what it must be like to have 400 plus files on your desk. :eek:

I am not a blogger but I do like to read. I've tried to stay away from the ones that end up in name calling. But I will check out the blog Grits for Breakfast.

juliekan

08-19-2008, 01:11 PM

After the Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on July 24, the FLDS sent a letter to them. I have been looking for this, and it has been removed from sites it was previously listed. Anyone got a link? TIA :)

walton

08-19-2008, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by tophound
I think it's pretty scary stuff when anyone feels they can judge a group of 10,000 by the actions of one.
Warren Jeffs and this young woman are clearly betrothed. No FLDS man would EVER kiss a female in this way, otherwise. However, "betrothed" and having a consumated marriage are not the same thing. Clearly, a girl so young should not be either betrothed, or married. But this is one incident. The press originally said that CPS found 'many' underage marriages. Fact is, there are fewer underage marriages in their church than general society. And way, way fewer incidents of teenage pregnancy than the general population. And zero STDs and healthy births and babies. Which is not the case in teen pregnancies in general.
And they have recently committed to no future underage marriages, at all.
We have all sorts of perverts that are really hurting children, everyday. It's too bad Texas isn't using some of its money to catch and prosecute them. There are other ways to be effective in working with an entire community than putting on a circus. [/*]

This circus was performed by none other than one ringleader and his clowns. Warren Jeffs and his faithful followers.

The picture is one example that was put on film that we know about. How many more are there?

How do you suppose her parents felt when they saw this union take place? Was it a proud moment? Or did her mother feel sick to her stomach and was sickened by the thought? Guess we will never know as she is pleading the 5th.

tophound

08-19-2008, 01:23 PM

It's hard to know where to begin. If you look at the U.S. census dta, you can easily tell that many people leave the FLDS, every year. Only a few of them then make it a 'mission' to tear down the group. Most of them go on to have good, decent lives and maintain their relationships with the family and friends still in the group.
The "lost boys" story is mostly bunk. And the young men themselves have repeatedly said they do not see themselves as 'lost boys', nor do they want to be called that. Dan Fisher, the dentist/entrepeneur who coined that term is himself a hypocrite, having left two wives and several children behind, and never made any attempts to support them. He then hosted drinking parties for kids from Short Creek and wooed them away. Parent after parent, night after night, came and took their sons, and daughters, back home. Some refused to come home. They were having way too much fun. They became the lost boys. Many of them have since, as they have matured, returned to the FLDS community.
Teenagers are by definition rebelious. FLDS teens are no different. Read the stories about Flora. Yes, she was sexually abused as a youngster. And her father was excommunicated for it. Family took her in. Time and time again. She would leave, get in trouble, call home, they came and got her. Over and over.
Then she discovered she could be a professional victim...and her show was launched. Several of the girls she helped "escape" say they were bamboozled by her and have returned. Several have said the same thing and have stayed out, but away from her. She is someone to be pitied and helped, but not believed.
The movie "Banking on Heaven" is also a travety. And the woman, I can't recall her name, who was the FLDS person in the film has openly told anyone and everyone who will listen how she was duped, most of what she said was edited out because it was positive about the group, and she is still a mamber of the FLDS community.
For every bad story there are many more of good, wholesome lives and childhood memories to be cherished.
It is a hard life. Not everyone is cut out for it. So many leave. But not with hard feelings. Only a few do that...and then even fewer go on to be professional victims.
The FLDS believe that only a married woman can go on to the celestial kingsom. So if a man is excommunicated, and his wife/wives don't choose to go with him, yes, they want to be reassigned to another husband. That is one of the cultural differences they have that is hard for us that don't have the same beliefs as they have to grasp.
But even when a man is asked to leave, he is given help to start his life over. Help can be a job or money, or whatever. And some wives do leave with their husbands. They have a very, very rigid religion. But only the worst sins/crimes result in excommunication. Most others the men are told to go and repent and then return.

The mother who kept pleading the fifth was told to do so by her attorney. But she has written extensively on the petition to the Congress about things. Including problems Carolyn had.

At the gate, they were told there was no Sarah fitting the description that the police had. They were also put on the phone with the man that there was a warrant for and who was in Arizona. The police could easily have verified that by calling his parole officer. And they took five days from the time of the calls from "sarah" to the point of the raid. That was more than enough time to verify the calls. All they had to do was have the phone company of the recieving number back trace the cal(s). It would have shown cell tower activity back to Utah, or Arizona, I don't recall where Swinton was living.

I don't think the FLDS are perfect. I don't think anyone is. But I think they have been grossly mistreated and Texas along with Judge Barbie perpetrated horrible crimes against them.
Even Texas' own higher courts, who are notoriously conservative said CPS stepped way, way out of line.
And I think so many people are willing to jump on the band wagon because the idea of polygamy or living such a rigid life seems so bad...but who are we to judge? and why aren't people trying to find out the truth between the lies?
There is always more to a story than someone so emotionally involed can tell.

tophound

08-19-2008, 01:28 PM

Their culture is completely foreign to us. The mother was probably proud to give her child to the Prophet.
Do I agree? Good Lord, no!
But it isn't my culture. And what most people don't understand is that no sexual activity ever takes place in a marriage in the FLDS until the woman solicits it.
NONE!
And no betrothal is made until a girl has started menses. But a betrothat does not mean sexual consumation.
It isn't a good thing...by my standards...and the group has agreed to honor the civil laws in whatever jurisdiction a girl resides, in the future....
But we, if we are going to attempt to judge, must first make every effort to understand their culture and how they formed the thinking they did. Like this mother.
And 'guns a blazin', hang 'em high justice' isn't going to work. All it will do is drive them deeper underground...

tophound

08-19-2008, 01:32 PM

Julie,
The letter you are referring to was sent before the hearing and is included in the body of the written hearing. There had been some news fluff saying it was submitted late, but that proved to be false. I don't think I've seen the actual letter but I did see the petition and read lots of the posts. If I can find it, again, I'll post it.

juliekan

08-19-2008, 01:33 PM

Originally posted by tophound

<respectfully snipped>
The mother who kept pleading the fifth was told to do so by her attorney. But she has written extensively on the petition to the Congress about things. Including problems Carolyn had.
<snipped>
[/*]

Do you have the link to the petition? Thanks.
oops just saw your reply thanks

tophound

08-19-2008, 01:35 PM

here is a link to the petition that was sent. It has many posts from the FLDS and especially from family members of DLora's and Carolyn's..
http://www.voicesforthechildren.org/viewpetition.php?id=3

tophound

08-19-2008, 01:37 PM

and in my next life I am going to be a great typist and even better speller!

walton

08-19-2008, 02:07 PM

Originally posted by tophound
and in my next life I am going to be a great typist and even better speller! [/*]

:) I understood everything you wrote.

The woman that you spoke about from Banking on Heaven that said they edited out so much was Ruth. When I saw the film I understood that she was still FLDS at heart. But don't you see she was talking about the Abuse that she and her family endured.

She was talking about the heartache and pain that she still feels to this day. There was no reason for her or anyone else to go thru what she did. NONE. Ruth might not be married now, but I just gotta believe that God is saving a spot for her as well. She is a strong woman but she deserves her own little piece of Heaven. jmo

When men are kicked out and their wives are reassigned should/couldn't it be up to the women to "choose" their own husband? And why do you suppose that God is in such need for all these men to start their own Kingdoms? Seems to me that God is doing preatty darn good on his own.

If these men are so worthy to sport their own Kingdom why do they need 50 wives to place them in that spot? Why must one man have over 100 children? ( Kingston) Is it because the man isn't worthy to do it on his own?

The laws weren't made to single out the FLDS. The laws were made to protect everyone including the FLDS.

Enforcing the laws won't drive them underground. Their lack of respect and determination to continue breaking the law might make them live a little differently.

I beleive that we might disagree on Dan Fischer and the kids.

Concerning Flora- I think everyone deals with pain differently. Flora did what she had to do to live or maybe just exist at the time.

Calling ones parole officer who stated that his last conversation with the person was done by phone isn't really keeping tabs on the sex offender now is it? Cell phones travel all over. A sex offender mind you that wasn't on the registered sex offender list. Hmmm. But maybe that has now changed.

In order for the Rangers and local authorities to put a trace on the call they would have had to believe that the call came from somewhere else than the compound. At the time they acted it was being treated as a legit call for help. There would have been no reason to think otherwise. It wasn't until after the raid that they knew about the other calls. It was weeks later that I was still asking about Sara. And to this day I can't be certain that there wasn't a Sara that needed help.

I don't think the FLDS have been mistreated at all. I think that Law Enforcement and the courts have been more than fair. If anyone else would have done the Curly shuffle as much as these folks, they would have been thrown in for obstruction of Justice and more.

juliekan

08-19-2008, 02:13 PM

gosanangelo.com says testimony in the Barbara Jessop case has concluded and the Judge has retired to prepare her ruling.

walton

08-19-2008, 02:25 PM

Originally posted by Imperfect

Dear Walton the Fishergal :D

Good point -- why did he need to go to Vegas? It would make more sense to me if he'd been there several days (would indicate that he was seriously ill), but IIRC, he was out the next day.

Things that make you go 'hmmm ...'

:confused: [/*]

:) Sometimes I even put bait on my hook. But a lot of time I really like just sitting there waiting for them to jump on. Watching the water and listening to the wind. I really do like fishing.

From the link: Polygamist sect leader Warren Jeffs was found "convulsive," weak and feverish in an Arizona jail cell before he was hospitalized under tight security in Las Vegas, a sheriff's spokeswoman said Wednesday.

The 52-year-old president of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was found Tuesday "in a weakened state of health, acting in a convulsive manner, shaking, and running a fever," said Trish Carter, spokeswoman for Mohave County Sheriff Tom Sheahan.

Seems really odd that Willie doesn't spend more time with Warren. Doesn't it? A little one on one. I would think that Willie might have some questions concerning running the show. But maybe Warrens new lawyer is telling Warrens old lawyer (Rod Parker) to tell Willie how to do things. Do ya think?

juliekan

08-19-2008, 02:37 PM

Originally posted by juliekan
After the Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on July 24, the FLDS sent a letter to them. I have been looking for this, and it has been removed from sites it was previously listed. Anyone got a link? TIA :) [/*]

Sorry being lazy and quoting myself. The reason I am looking for this is that Willie stated yesterday( per Salt Lake Trib) that the church made it clear it wouldn't sanction underage marriages and that that doctrine has been in place for more than 2 years. I thought they just came out after the raid and said that, NOW they wouldn't do it anymore. Just one of those nagging things in my mind. And we know Warren "married" that 12 year old 2 years ago. Any other known "unions" since then?

juliekan

08-19-2008, 02:43 PM

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/aug/19/arguments-conclude-in-one-flds-case-ruling/

Warren Jeff's young wife removed from her mother's care.

Poor child, look where mom's marrying her off to that old goat has gotten her. Or should I say thank goodness?

walton

08-19-2008, 02:43 PM

Hey Imperfect why do you suppose Rod Parker is still playing a role in all this?

If his firm isn't employed by Warren or the NotFiledasChurch Church why has he even been talking? Cuz he is such a good guy?

If Merril is sitting at the Ranch do you think it is bugging the heck out of him that Willie appears to be everywhere?

What are Merril and the rest of the guys doing? Does Merril still have the key to marry people?

Where is Winston? What is he doing? Can he marry people from this compound?

Did anyone ever say where all the teenage boys were?

walton

08-19-2008, 02:53 PM

Originally posted by juliekan

Sorry being lazy and quoting myself. The reason I am looking for this is that Willie stated yesterday( per Salt Lake Trib) that the church made it clear it wouldn't sanction underage marriages and that that doctrine has been in place for more than 2 years. I thought they just came out after the raid and said that, NOW they wouldn't do it anymore. Just one of those nagging things in my mind. And we know Warren "married" that 12 year old 2 years ago. Any other known "unions" since then? [/*]

Willie is full of beans.

Willie (as have many others in this cult and Rod Parker) have said that there were no underage marriages.

I haven't looked for the letter but did you check BillM's site? I'll do some looking.

walton

08-19-2008, 02:55 PM

Originally posted by juliekan
http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/aug/19/arguments-conclude-in-one-flds-case-ruling/

Warren Jeff's young wife removed from her mother's care.

Poor child, look where mom's marrying her off to that old goat has gotten her. Or should I say thank goodness? [/*]

She now stands a chance. jmo

walton

08-19-2008, 03:06 PM

Is this it? http://www.truthwillprevail.org/index.php?parentid=1&index=101

juliekan

08-19-2008, 03:14 PM

Originally posted by walton
Is this it? http://www.truthwillprevail.org/index.php?parentid=1&index=101 [/*]

No, it was an official looking letter and in it I thought they said they would NO LONGER allow underage girls to marry (ie, follow Texas statutes). Aaaaaaaaaaargggg. I've had this tiny little quandry in my brain for a week. Maybe it was a letter sent to someone else.....I think I originally saw it on Brooke's blog....but went back a couple of days later and it was no longer there.

Thanks
:)

spydernweb2006

08-19-2008, 03:32 PM

SAN ANGELO, Texas -- A Texas judge has ordered a 14-year-old girl who was allegedly married to jailed polygamist leader Warren Jeffs be taken from her mother and placed in foster care.

Texas District Judge Barbara Walther on Tuesday said there was "uncontroverted evidence of the underage marriage."

Just in on the lunch news as Breaking news. I posted athread regarding it.

IMO in this instance the court was right to remove the child. NO 12 yr old is old enough to consent to marriage or anything that entails. Her Mother and Father should be ashamed and they should be held accountable under penalty of law.

I am all for freedom of religon but I dont agree with religon covering for child abuse. I do not understand why the FDLS cannot wait till the girls are 18 or over. IMO this is open blantant child molestation being called freedom of religon.

JMHO

Hugs,
Spyder

Roux

08-19-2008, 04:38 PM

Originally posted by juliekan

No, it was an official looking letter and in it I thought they said they would NO LONGER allow underage girls to marry (ie, follow Texas statutes). Aaaaaaaaaaargggg. I've had this tiny little quandry in my brain for a week. Maybe it was a letter sent to someone else.....I think I originally saw it on Brooke's blog....but went back a couple of days later and it was no longer there.

Thanks
:) [/*]

Late checking in today but I distinctly remember Willie reading from a prepared statement that included "no longer." At the time, I posted that phrase indicated to me that they had done it in the past. Someone gave me an attaboy/good catch so that's why I remember so well.

tophound

08-19-2008, 04:51 PM

Here's a different spin on things;
The mother plead the fifth as often as she did because they, the FLDS, wanted this child removed. They want to get the entire issue of the "evidence" and the seizure of the same, before the appeals court...
In order to do this they have to have a quick and clean ruling against them. Now they have it. And from what I understand, this young lady is pretty resilliant. She isn't one to be seriously damaged by placement in foster care.

Brooke's blog has it's latest entry on the "mini-manifesto' as the statement by Willie Jessup was referred to...in her entry she quotes much of the language...I can't find an actual transcript of what he said, anywhere...

Roux

08-19-2008, 04:54 PM

Imp, regarding the boys. Do you remember the TV segment that showed a woman who has a residential home for the boys? Several were living there, learning life-skills and getting job training or education. I can't remember which network had the special on FLDS, but seems as though it was pretty early on. Anyway, my point is that she would be a person who could testify about the numbers of young men she has helped.

juliekan

08-19-2008, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by Roux

Late checking in today but I distinctly remember Willie reading from a prepared statement that included "no longer." At the time, I posted that phrase indicated to me that they had done it in the past. Someone gave me an attaboy/good catch so that's why I remember so well. [/*]

Well here's another......

Attaboy/Good Catch :D
Thanks!

tophound

08-19-2008, 05:19 PM

Many people leave the various FLDS communities every year. There are several very legitimate organizations who offer help to those who do not otherwise have it to make the adjustments to life outside the community. Most of those who leave, do so on good terms with their family and friends that remain in the community. Several young men have left to join the military.

The FLDS way of life is not an easy one. In many ways it is like a very strict Roman Catholic religious order. And it is not for everyone.

On the other hand, those women who remain, do so because they want to. If so many wanted out, why, when CPS offerred all sorts of help, did they all choose to remain? Where were the droves of brainwashed, enslaved, poor women just waiting to get out?
These women, despite what many want to believe, want to be there. They are not brainwashed. Their beliefs are different than ours...or I should say the majority of the population. But they have access to mainstream life when they want it. They use computers and go on the internet and those who want to, hold jobs outside the home, and many have college educations.
These are bright, savvy, decent women who are raising really decent children.
And their husbands are decent, hard working men who love their families more than life itself.
To condemn them without knowing them flies in the face of everything Americans are supposed to stand for.

And, just so there is no confusion, I write from personal knowledge. And anyone who can't read my writing and not be able to discern "fact" from opinion needs a good English class.

walton

08-19-2008, 06:13 PM

Originally posted by tophound
**snipped**

And, just so there is no confusion, I write from personal knowledge. And anyone who can't read my writing and not be able to discern "fact" from opinion needs a good English class. [/*]

:)

If you have been reading this board for sometime you know that I am the worst at spelling. I'll stand in line for that English class.

Is the Personal knowledge you have from reading about the FLDS or do you have personal knowledge because you were part of the FLDS? There is a difference.

If you were/are part of the FLDS you could answer some questions that I have. Or if you have a lot of knowledge because of the things you've read you might be able to point me in the right direction.

1.If Warren really said he was never the Prophet does that mean that Rulon was wrong?

2. If Rulon was wrong... Does that mean he really wasn't the Prophet either?

3. Who really has the keys?

Have you heard about the 8 hour meeting? IF so were the keys divided at that meeting?

Do you know Patricia Keate?

Roux

08-19-2008, 06:23 PM

Tophound, I would like your perspective on living conditions at the YFZ Ranch. You said you have been following this story, so what about Warren's edicts regarding activities for the children? No water sports or many other harmless activities? Their school books missing chapters and pictures?

With all due respect, your comments appear to be that of an FLDS apologist. IMO they are a false religion and cult.

As a Christian myself, I find it offensive that they claim to be Christians when in fact they have perverted the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Further IMO, it is blasphemy (and I do not use that word lightly) to teach blood atonement as they have set forth. The only blood sacrifice necessary is that of Christ.

Setting the religious issue entirely aside, incest and child abuse are not the activities of a benign, peaceful community. Who in their right mind would give their 12 or 11 year old child in marriage to a 50-something man?

walton

08-19-2008, 06:34 PM

Originally posted by Imperfect

I do remember something about that. And her name escapes me as well.

Would love to see an organized effort on the part of the boys and those who are trying to get them on their feet, to go after the FLDS for damages. [/*]

Michelle Benward is the name.

http://www.childbrides.org/boys_48hours_broken_ties.html

Broken Ties
Seth Doane Reports On The Boys And Young Men Who Leave The FLDS 48 Hours
CBS News

"And that’s when she wrapped her arms around me and told me that father had been sent out of the community. And it tore me up inside," he remembers. "He was reassigned out of the community. And two of my mothers were reassigned to another man."

Caleb, Hyrum and Simon all shared Frankie's feeling when they hit the outside world. "I was completely lost," Frankie admits. "I drank every single night a fifth of vodka. Pretty much a junkie life."

And according to Michelle Benward, they aren't alone. "I have the names of at least 450 to 500 kids around Salt Lake," she says.

But in her house there are only ten beds - just ten beds, and a helping hand for the hundreds of boys for whom the future is unknown and the past has simply vanished.

Lots of true stories told at this site.

Roux

08-19-2008, 06:39 PM

Originally posted by grammybear
I was reading that petition and a couple of things grabbed my attention. First off it had words to the effect of civil rights being disregarded or something to the effect. This was not a civil or religious issue it was about the abuse of children.
Secondly with the signatures, they all seem to be related to the names of members of this group, and there was also a signature of a 4 yo child. I am sorry but as far as I know a child cannot sign on a petition if the child is a minor.
I do not believe for one minute that any of these so called marriages are not consemated. With what I know about this group it is part of this group it is a goal to have the girls get pregnenet as soon as possible.

jmoo [/*]

I went back just now and read a few Comments under the petition. barf
One thing is evident - they all have that same tenor and tone in their writing and manner of speech. Anyone who is the least bit objective can tell what they say simply doesn't ring true; it's too much Stepford Wives and Children.

Roux

08-19-2008, 06:44 PM

Originally posted by walton

Michelle Benward is the name.

http://www.childbrides.org/boys_48hours_broken_ties.html

Broken Ties
Seth Doane Reports On The Boys And Young Men Who Leave The FLDS 48 Hours
CBS News

"And that’s when she wrapped her arms around me and told me that father had been sent out of the community. And it tore me up inside," he remembers. "He was reassigned out of the community. And two of my mothers were reassigned to another man."

Caleb, Hyrum and Simon all shared Frankie's feeling when they hit the outside world. "I was completely lost," Frankie admits. "I drank every single night a fifth of vodka. Pretty much a junkie life."

And according to Michelle Benward, they aren't alone. "I have the names of at least 450 to 500 kids around Salt Lake," she says.

But in her house there are only ten beds - just ten beds, and a helping hand for the hundreds of boys for whom the future is unknown and the past has simply vanished.

Lots of true stories told at this site. [/*]

Thanks Walton, you are amazing.

tophound

08-19-2008, 07:12 PM

I have followed the story closely because I have friends who are FLDS. As far as I know, Warren is still very much the Prophet. The belief is that he was both extremely depressed and under the influence of heavy psychotropic drugs at the time he said he wasn't.
In the FLDS no marriage is consumated until the woman feels it is time. Sometimes the newly married couple don't even know each other before the marriage. But if BOTH have agreed to it, they are married. That is the beginning of courtship.
Also sexual relations in an FLDS marriage are quite litteraly reserved for procreation. That means sexual relations ONLY occur when the woman is ovulating. And they cease when she is pregnant and nursing.
I told you this is a religion that is not easy to be part of, or to understand. Sex is not considered an activity for pleasure. Men have been excomunicated or at the least asked to leave and repent for making sexual demands on their wives beyond procreation.
I just think that so many people have gotten swept up in the sensational that they have started to take it as gospel and have not bothered to find out what the beliefs are or the truth behind some of the sensational.
And as far as blood atonement goes, it is no more paracticed than the manin the moon. Many of the recordings of Warren Jeffs that have been circulated addressing such things have been taken out of context. They were recordings made of him reading the writings of the old prophets and explaining what was meant at the time in a history class.
Again, I don't agree with their beliefs, but I don't agree with Scientology or Jehovah's Witnesses either...but I do believe everyone has the right to have others learn about them fairly before judging them.

walton

08-19-2008, 08:39 PM

TopDog

I gathered these links for you. I hope this helps.

To better understand the FLDS one should learn of how the FLDS came to be.

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/mass/mtn_meadows/index.html

How far does one go with their Religious beliefs?

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/classics/ervil_lebaron_cult/index.html

Ervil LeBaron middle-agedErvil LeBaron grimaced as he looked down at the body of his pregnant daughter in the trunk of his car. Rebecca's neck was chafed raw from the rope her killers had used to strangle her, and a stream of blood had dripped from her nose onto the mat under her head. He slammed the trunk shut.

The green-and-white Ford LTD was new, and it was the spiffiest car Ervil had ever owned. Not only had his daughter's blood soiled his precious car, it was also an indication of sloppy work by the murderers -- whom he'd contracted.

Under the Banner of Heaven is a very good book that tells of the history of the Church and how far some have gone with their beliefs.

http://www.amazon.com/Under-Banner-Heaven-Story-Violent/dp/0385509510

http://thehopeorg.org/ Filled with story after story of real people living in the culture.

http://www.rickross.com/groups/polygamy.html Everything in a nutshell.

:read: I hope these help.

tophound

08-19-2008, 08:58 PM

Labaron was not a part of the FLDS, EVER! Although claiming to be a 'fundamentalist Mormon' he was a completely different group from the FLDS.
If you're going to make accusations, make sure you're referring to the right group, at least!
Just as there are many different mainstream 'Christian" sects, or denominations, there are quite a few distinct fundamental mormon groups. And there practices and beliefs vary as widely as Lutherans and Methodists and UCC's...and Baptists and Presbyterians...you get the picture...
LeBaron is not FLDS!!!!!!!

walton

08-19-2008, 09:20 PM

Relax TopDog

Where did I make any accusations? I didn't.

This is the comment YOU made in the last post prior: Again, I don't agree with their beliefs, but I don't agree with Scientology or Jehovah's Witnesses either...but I do believe everyone has the right to have others learn about them fairly before judging them.

Now... with that out of the way. Well you get the picture don't you?

Concerning the blood atonement issue- do you want to read some stories concerning Warren making statements about "being blood atoned" when he was talking about bringing a young girl back from Canada?

Did your friends tell you about the seceret handshake that is used during certain ceremonies? Did they explain what it means?

Some people only see the bad. Some only want to see the good. I can see both. The FLDS are a proud people. They are a strong people. Don't cut them short TopDog. They know their history better than many out here. jmo

tophound

08-19-2008, 10:00 PM

I'm not familiar with this program yet so when I want to write, I just go to the very end. I hope it isn't coming across as though I'm replying to anything specific, it's more to a mish of ideas from several posts...
I don't know where alot of the information is coming from that some people here state as 'facts'. Like saying it has been seen time and time again that they lie. I have yet to see that. I think people just don't want to believe them. Like when they told CPS their ages. Or showed them birth certificates. Or when a small child being raised in a home with more than one mother said he/she didn't know which one was biologivcally the mother. He/she was telling the truth.
There haven't been lies. Just people refusing to believe the truth.
Blood atonement has never been used by the FLDS. It exists as a tenet in all of Mormonism. Even LDS.
Then again, the Roman Catholics have some strange beliefs they don't talk about, and let's not forget the secret handshakes of the Masons...And if you want to get some strange beliefs, take a look at the writings of L.Ron Hubbard!
Every religion has it's bizarre stuff, don't ever let anyone tell you they don't.
But most of it, even the members aren't aware of.
And the rate of teenage pregnancies in this country is off the charts. I think if I had a daughter who was hell bent on having a baby, I'd rather she have it as part of a group like the FLDS where she will get really excellent prenatal care, good nutrition, and the child will be wanted and loved than to get pregnant on her own, maybe or maybe not the father sticks around...probably won't have any prenatal care or good nutrition until she is several months into it, and the child has an increased likelyhood of almost every social ill known.
I'm not condoning teen pregnancy, but I do believe they have a very differnt culture and the negative outcomes of typical teen pregnancies are not true within their group.
Also, the underage marriage rate is actually very low...
And there are many, many monogamous marriages in the group. Look at the stats from the YfZ Ranch.
As for the Fawns, one is back in the community.
And I've never said that there is no abuse in the community. For crying out loud, the community is over ten thousand people. There is going to be some abuse. But that is not any different than any other community. What is different, is that when an abuser is reported in the FLDS and doesn't immediately change his ways, he is removed from the community. Pretty harsh! But pretty effective!
Don't believe every angry disenfranchised person who says "I only rolled up my shirt sleeves...." you can bet your sweet bippy it was more than that!
I just think, especially with Warren Jeffs in jail, and a new leadership emerging, the time is opportune to approach the community and offer ways to work toward changes that are good for everyone and don't compromise their beliefs. I don't think you can do that with tanks and force. If you want to really help make a better environment, you do it with kid gloves and kindness. And a welcome not hatred and bigotry and buying into the tales of the disenfranchised professional victims.

lunchlady

08-20-2008, 01:31 AM

tophound: You seem to be well versed so here's a few specific questions:

Approximately what percentage of the spiritual marriages are with underage girls?

What are the statistics for age at time of marriage of Warren Jeffs' wives? Does he give himself a higher percentage of underage brides than average in FLDS?

What percentage of the marriages involve first cousins or other close relatives which could be considered incest to some degree or other? Are they any rules about marriage with close relatives?

Do men tend to take more wives to keep the rate of initiation by the wives high enough to keep them more sexually active than the average American husband, who has sex 1-2 times per week?

How do they feel about the Amish tradition of letting the young adults go out in the world for one year to observe/experience vice firsthand?

Is there some punishment for grooms who fail to consummate a marriage chosen for them by Jeffs? If so do you think that influenced the 19 year old who was recently convicted of first degree felony rape?

juliekan

08-20-2008, 02:12 AM

Originally posted by walton
<snipped for bandwidth>

What are Merril and the rest of the guys doing? Does Merril still have the key to marry people?
[/*]

I e-mailed a guy in San Angelo that follows this case closely, and his impression is that there are very few people residing at the YFZ ranch, but that he did think the men who have been indicted are staying there. :shrug:

walton

08-20-2008, 08:11 AM

Originally posted by tophound

I just think, especially with Warren Jeffs in jail, and a new leadership emerging, the time is opportune to approach the community and offer ways to work toward changes that are good for everyone and don't compromise their beliefs. I don't think you can do that with tanks and force. If you want to really help make a better environment, you do it with kid gloves and kindness. And a welcome not hatred and bigotry and buying into the tales of the disenfranchised professional victims. [/*]

And sometimes I put bait on my hook when I go fishing. But mostly I just like sitting there watching the water and listening to the wind.

I like fishing.

walton

08-20-2008, 08:39 AM

Originally posted by juliekan

No, it was an official looking letter and in it I thought they said they would NO LONGER allow underage girls to marry (ie, follow Texas statutes). Aaaaaaaaaaargggg. I've had this tiny little quandry in my brain for a week. Maybe it was a letter sent to someone else.....I think I originally saw it on Brooke's blog....but went back a couple of days later and it was no longer there.

Thanks
:) [/*]

Is this it? http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/senate%20letter.pdf

Even if this isn't it this is dang interesting. Do you see the header on the top of the letter. Oh man. What a bunch!!

Rodney Parkers name on the left side.
Rodney Parkers email and phone address on the right side.

And folks get this. Square dab in the middle is:
Snow, Christensen & Martineau
http://www.scmlaw.com/

lol

I wonder if Snow, Christensen and Martineau know that Rodney is working for the FLDS.......still.

tophound

08-20-2008, 10:47 AM

I don't know the exact percentages of "underage" brides. I do know that very, very few have been under the legal age in any given jurisdiction. Teen marriages are quite common. By teen I mean 16-18 year olds. Those under that age are seldom. Out of several hundred marriages recorded in Bishops records, there were only four or five found when the Texas authorities did their review.
You have to remember, if the Prophet has a revelation that a particular couple should be married, then he tells the girls father. If, and only if, the father approves, then the girl is told. IF and that's a really big 'if', if she approves, then the wedding goes forward. There are many fathers who let it be known quite publically that they will not allow their daugter(s) to be married until a certain age. Also, when a girl is 'ready' her father lets the prophet know. So usually, only girls who have already been made known to the prophet are paired.
I agree it is a strange way of doing business. But it has been their culture's practice since the inception of Mormonism. It goes back to the founders.
No, there is no formal practice like the Amish "rummenspringen" (I don't know how it is spelled) The FLDS are not isolated like the Amish. They have vehicles and computers and iPods and all sorts of things. Teens are as rebellious in their community as any other,. It is not uncommon for a teen to sneak out and go to town....and prehaps take friends with him/her.....that is how alot of the "lost boys" came to be. It was common to find a party going at the good dentist's house...
With the Amish, if a youngster goes out into the English world and decides to stay, they are forever shunned from the community. It is as if they died. That is not true in any way with the FLDS. There is the expectation that if you are going to remain and be part of the community that you will adhere, strictly, to the expectations. But you are ot shunned if you screw up as a teenager. You may get punished by your parents, but not banished or shunned by the community.
I keep saying, and not lightly, it is a very hard life. The expectations are very strict. And it is not for everyone. And there are many who choose to leave. And they leave on good terms. And some come back. But when they come back, the expectations are the same. Flora came and went several times before she stayed out.
Despite what the "victims" say, there really is no gun to anyone's head. And one doesn't have to "escape". All one has to do is leave. I am sure that there have been battles in individual families. But it is not policy or a rule or anything endorsed by the tenets of the religion to keep people in.
Although very private, and having strict codes of behavior, the FLDS are not strict isolationists like the Amish. More like the Mennonites, if you were to draw a comparison.
There are some marriages between first cousins, but again, that is not common. And as the realization of family linkages to Fumarase Deficiency have become known, marriages between specific families is not common at all....and there is some talk of doing genetic screening for the carrier gene before marriages go forward. Although I don't know where those talks are at this point.
I think I pointed it out before, but I'llsay it again;
Sexual relations are limited to when a woman is ovulating. If there are several wives, and they share close living arrangments, which most do, there is a tendency for menstral cycles to "sync". That is a documented phenomenom everywhere that you have multiple women of menses age. So you figure it out, if you are so interested in how often a man has relations.
Again, their culture is very, very different than ours.
You are talking about several communities with thousands of members. Yes, there are screw ups and bad people. And yes, some bad people do bad things. I just really think you ought to take a look at the entire community and realize that for the most part these are really decent, nice people, who work hard, raise decent children, have lives full of love and hurts and all the things we all have, and not judge all of them by the actions of a few. And I think if we, the average joe and jane, extended a nicer way of being and showed by example of kindness, and even legitimate curiosity, a willingness to befried, we could change the atmosphere of fear of the world they legitimately have. And if we can do that, perhaps, just perhaps, some of the things you find offensive would, when explained and seen in context, be less offensive, or some wold begin to change.
They aren't going to change their fundamental beliefs, but they may change their secretiveness. And that would open up the world of choice for many. And not make the world such a scary place. And that kind of change happens because of individual behavior. Not mass hatred and berating and demanding and gestapo tactics.
Christianity is , at it's core, is a faith of kindness and tolerance, and giving. Not one of hatefullness and judgmental behaviors.
"Let he who is without sin....."

juliekan

08-20-2008, 11:45 AM

Originally posted by walton

Is this it? http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/senate%20letter.pdf

Even if this isn't it this is dang interesting. Do you see the header on the top of the letter. Oh man. What a bunch!!

Rodney Parkers name on the left side.
Rodney Parkers email and phone address on the right side.

And folks get this. Square dab in the middle is:
Snow, Christensen & Martineau
http://www.scmlaw.com/

lol

I wonder if Snow, Christensen and Martineau know that Rodney is working for the FLDS.......still. [/*]

Bless you my child...It wasn't all a dream...It WAS posted on Brooke's front page when I saw it last.

I like to fish, but sometime have to throw back what I catch. ;)

Roux

08-20-2008, 11:55 AM

I'll say it again: Walton is amazing. We have our very own Lynn Gweeny!

walton

08-20-2008, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by juliekan

Bless you my child...It wasn't all a dream...It WAS posted on Brooke's front page when I saw it last.

I like to fish, but sometime have to throw back what I catch. ;) [/*]

Yeah me too but not until I've tugged on the line a time or two. :)

Isn't this a kick. I believe somewhere in all these posts is a link stating that Snow wasn't representing the FLDS. I don't think Snow would say it if it weren't true. Big firm with Lots of history.

Hmmm Where do you suppose Rod fits into all this fine mess Ollie?

Wow. This is kinda funny.

lotty

08-20-2008, 12:02 PM

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2003-05-22/news/members-only/1
Members Only
Church leaders want ousted members out of their home
By John Dougherty
Published on May 22, 2003
KINGMAN -- A simple eviction trial in Mohave County has evolved into a battle over the scope of power a religious group can exert to control its members including their behavior, their relationships and even where they live.

JMO/IMO I thought this was an interesting article to bring up...sort of like looking in a mirror. What is news is not always new. JMO/IMO

walton

08-20-2008, 12:06 PM

Originally posted by Roux
I'll say it again: Walton is amazing. We have our very own Lynn Gweeny! [/*]

Hey Roux I gotta tell ya. When I first came to the message board there was a poster named Senora. She was very supportive and very patient. Man.. I'd google til my eyes burned.

:rose: << For Senora and her patience.

Roux

08-20-2008, 01:49 PM

The sex ideology as presented by tophound is just another way to control and manipulate women. Women can't enjoy a physical relationship; just used as objects. And I do not for one minute think that those FLDS men don't have sex for their own pleasure and recreation.

Again, a perversion of what God intended between a man and a woman.

Vinnie

08-20-2008, 02:11 PM

I'm so glad Barbara & Merril Jessop are getting some bad press! They so richly deserve it.

I doubt that Barbara even cares that her daughter is being assigned to foster care. According to Carolyn's book, she let her "sister-wives" take care of her children so that she could galavant with Merril. Besides that, she already allowed her daughter to be "married" at age 12. So what does she care happens to her now, at age 14?

But I bet she is plenty embarrassed that her misdeeds are coming to the light of day, and I couldn't be happier about it.

The fact that she is facing this alone only proves what a weasel Merril is. Wonder if she will ever see him for HIS true colors?!

walton

08-20-2008, 05:10 PM

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy225.html

The lawsuit filed by Brent Jeffs accused his uncle, Warren Jeffs, and two other men, Warren's brothers Blaine and Leslie, of molesting him repeatedly more than a decade ago in the basement of a Sunday school the FLDS ran in Salt Lake City. The Sunday school, known as the Alta Academy, has since closed.

"On repeated occasions, defendant prophet Warren would enter the basement room where the children were located, find (Brent) and instruct him to come to a nearby lavatory," the suit alleges.

"While in the lavatory, defendant prophet, and/or defendant Blaine and/or defendant Leslie confronted (Brent) and instruction him to remove his clothes."

The suit claims that after Brent was undressed, the defendants told him it was "God's will" that he submit to one or all three of the men.

"Defendant prophet Warren then told (Brent) that these sodomizing activities were a way for (Brent) to 'become a man,' " the suit alleges. "The defendant prophet Warren admonished (Brent) that it was God's will that he not tell anyone - particularly his parents - about said activities."

Brent, now 21, was 5 and 6 years old when he claims the serial molestations took place. His attorneys said in the suit that he "decided to come forward with this information after his brother, Clayne, who lived in the same FLDS community, committed suicide."

walton

08-20-2008, 05:14 PM

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/bustupinbountiful/

The vehicle is stopped, its two occupants detained. Thirty-two-year-old Seth Jeffs is arrested for solicitation of a male prostitute. Nathaniel Steed Allred, twenty-seven, is arrested for prostitution when he admits that he had been paid $5,000 by Seth Jeffs for sexual services. Hidden inside the van police find a box containing $140,000 in cash, cell phones, $7,000 in prepaid credit cards. They also find a donation jar labeled 'Pennys For the Prophet.'

Upon further investigation police establish that the two men are couriers on a supply run to assist a fugitive named Warren Jeffs (see photo above), the self-proclaimed prophet and supreme leader of a polygamous sect known as the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS). The FLDS is a break-away Mormon splinter group that believes that if a man wants to find salvation, enter the celestial kingdom of God and possibly become a God himself, he needs at least three wives. It is rumored that Warren Jeffs has 50 wives.

walton

08-20-2008, 06:23 PM

From that article: "Defendant prophet Warren then told (Brent) that these sodomizing activities were a way for (Brent) to 'become a man,' " the suit alleges. "The defendant prophet Warren admonished (Brent) that it was God's will that he not tell anyone - particularly his parents - about said activities."

That is part of the problem Grammy who could he tell? Everyone bowed at Warrens feet. Warren was his Prophet and who was he to question. Who are any of these people to question Warren the man who talks to God?

But Warren didn't just wake up one day and decided he would be a child molester. For Warren to marry all but two of his fathers wives the day after Rulon died imo says a lot about how Warren felt about his father. How many other Prophets before him married their fathers wives? None that I've ever read about.

Could he turn to his parents? The teachers? His bishop? Yikes !! If they beat people with broom sticks, stick babies faces under water, beat their wives who could he tell?

Law Enforcement? Good cop bad cop who would know?

Where could a 5 or 6 year old go? Tell the Doctor if he saw one? We see how that played out for Ruth and those on the Ranch.

Where could a 15 year old go for help?

Over 50 years of treating them with kid gloves got this cult to where they are today. You know it and I know it.

It just makes me sick that they try to compare a community like this with communities on the outside. Big difference. Big Big difference.

Just sad. And so very scary.

lunchlady

08-20-2008, 07:16 PM

tophound:
Thanx for the responses but I remain to be convinced of several of your statements. I find that organizations are highly influenced by the morals and attitudes of the topdogs (tophounds?) and if Jeffs and other high ranking males are marrying as many underage girls as they can get their hands on and condoning incest/rape/coercion then it will be considered acceptable by the others. Also the women who have spoken to outsiders describe marriage as something they are told to do, not something which they can refuse easily. Maybe they can theoretically refuse but the consequences are maybe very bad for refusing, such as no other marriage or having very low status in the group.
I am willing to believe that they are allowed to leave, but how many of them feel like they have a chance to make it in the outside world? Could they take their children? With little traditional education and experience they are likely to feel very unprepared to leave and make their way outside the cocoon, so they would be inclined to put up with whatever they got inside. I am also skeptical of the ability of the women to say no to sex, marriage, or anything else. I imagine they can influence things, but outright refusals probably don't go very well.

Cat2007

08-21-2008, 12:55 AM

Originally posted by Vinnie
I'm so glad Barbara & Merril Jessop are getting some bad press! They so richly deserve it.

I doubt that Barbara even cares that her daughter is being assigned to foster care. According to Carolyn's book, she let her "sister-wives" take care of her children so that she could galavant with Merril. Besides that, she already allowed her daughter to be "married" at age 12. So what does she care happens to her now, at age 14?

But I bet she is plenty embarrassed that her misdeeds are coming to the light of day, and I couldn't be happier about it.

The fact that she is facing this alone only proves what a weasel Merril is. Wonder if she will ever see him for HIS true colors?! [/*]

Her true colors are pretty bad, too, Vinnie. She beat up little children according to Carolyn's book and lived a life of luxury with Merril when the rest of the family was almost starving. Seems to me she and Merril deserve each other. Bad lots both of them. IMO

lotty

08-21-2008, 01:44 AM

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iIdMpRHjN4hpNKBhfYyAsR4DDo4QD92M8VGO0
Records show more Texas sect members wed minors
By MICHELLE ROBERTS – 7 hours ago

SAN ANGELO, Texas (AP) — Five men from a polygamist sect raided by Texas authorities in April stand accused of sexually assaulting children, but they may not be the only ones.

LLaFren

08-21-2008, 07:48 AM

First off, thanks for keeping me updated on what's going on, I haven't been able to post much (or even read much for that matter), between the new grandbaby, work and TS Fay (which seems to be doing more damage than some hurricanes), it's been an insane couple of weeks.

Now back on thread:D

I feel that the women who give up their teenage girls to be "wives" need to be charged as well as the men that "marry" them.

These kids are not given any chance at all to discover who or what they wan't to be (IMHO), one of the main things I think CPS needs to do (not sure it may have happened) is to get these kids mainstreamed into school (public or private but at least accredited). So the kids can at least see there is more to the world than Warren Jeffs.

lotty

08-21-2008, 10:27 AM

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/life/religion/5956724.html

Aug. 20, 2008, 11:06PM
No FLDS insiders expected by grand jury
Sect members not cooperating in probe, sheriff says

By LISA SANDBERG

Copyright 2008 Houston Chronicle Austin Bureau

SAN ANGELO — When a West Texas grand jury reconvenes today to consider evidence against members of a polygamist sect, it's not likely to hear from any insiders...

juliekan

08-21-2008, 11:19 AM

Originally posted by lotty
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/life/religion/5956724.html

Aug. 20, 2008, 11:06PM
No FLDS insiders expected by grand jury
Sect members not cooperating in probe, sheriff says

By LISA SANDBERG

Copyright 2008 Houston Chronicle Austin Bureau

SAN ANGELO — When a West Texas grand jury reconvenes today to consider evidence against members of a polygamist sect, it's not likely to hear from any insiders... [/*]

from the article:
.....the girl was sealed for time and all eternity to Warren Jeffs.

So how can they reassign these wives if this is their vows?

And why would LE be expecting anyone from this group to step forward and cooperate? That's what a subpoena is for.......

lotty

08-21-2008, 11:37 AM

'Morning all,
It could be an interesting day.
Imperfect, I think you are correct. The spotlight being turned off has allowed much needed work to be done. As well as point out that there are children that did indeed need to be removed, IIRC weren't there five girls that weren't returned to the FLDS at all.

Julie, LOL! Time and all eternity, we forget it's Warren the "profit" and God can tell him to change his mind! :rolleyes:

Subpoena, subpoena, subpoena...I think it will be happening. Rod Parker better be ready to play hardball (I'm thinking) Texas isn't Utah.
:) Lotty

lotty

08-21-2008, 12:44 PM

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700252605,00.html
More FLDS women testify before grand jury
By Ben Winslow
Deseret News
Published: Thursday, Aug. 21, 2008 9:38 a.m. MDT
ELDORADO, Texas — The grand jury investigating crimes within the Fundamentalist LDS Church is meeting again today, with more young women being hauled before the secret panel...

lotty

08-21-2008, 02:15 PM

Originally posted by grammybear
It is going to be interesting what goes down today with the grand jury. I do really expect more charges filed. Wasn't it today also that WJ was supposed to have a court hearing or am I thinking about anaother case?
The issue with WJ is also going to be very interesting. I really that that I am right with some of the issues of this group, but I just call it like it is. I believe Rulon said before he died that there were no underage marriages. But the power went WJ head and he started to make some very big and self serving changes that WJ decided had to be made. I think it was nothing but greed and expected everybody to do as he said. I do not for one minute think for one minute that there are only a feww poligmist families. I believe there were many and the fact that the women will not tell the authorties about sister wives is very telling to me.

jmoo [/*]

Hey Grammy,
WJ is tomorrow. We will see what happens.

I think we will be seeing plenty going on in Texas. I think they are trying to keep plenty quite...unless it is R.Parker or W.Jessop speaking. I think Texas has plenty to use.

Roux

08-21-2008, 03:58 PM

Thanks for the links Lotty. I noticed that both Willie and Rod Parker claim there have been no underage marriages in 2 years. So that means LE should just ignore anything that happened prior? I don't think so.

And that Shurtleff! Poor him, these cases so hard to prosecute he claims. Always giving excuses.

walton

08-21-2008, 04:02 PM

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_10265346

Sentencing for a former polygamist sect "lost boy" -- convicted of killing his girlfriend after she refused to have sex with him at a party -- was delayed Thursday, sparking anger from the victim's family.
Third District Judge Royal Hansen instead ordered Parley Jeff Dutson, 19, to undergo a 60-day diagnostic evaluation in prison before sentence is imposed. Dutson, one of the many male youths exiled by the FLDS sect and known as "lost boys," faces up to life in prison.

walton

08-21-2008, 04:04 PM

From Lotty's link:

"We're always hoping for a miracle," Jessop said Thursday.

Jessop has also been subpoenaed to testify before the grand jury.

"If I was just observing, I'd be in Utah," he joked with reporters.

Kinda like Shurtleff huh?

lotty

08-21-2008, 04:22 PM

Originally posted by walton
From Lotty's link:

"We're always hoping for a miracle," Jessop said Thursday.

Jessop has also been subpoenaed to testify before the grand jury.

"If I was just observing, I'd be in Utah," he joked with reporters.

Kinda like Shurtleff huh? [/*]
Hi Roux and Walton,
Walton,

"We're always hoping for a miracle," Jessop said Thursday.

What does this mean to you? I think it means hopefully FLDS won't see any indictments, but I think W. Jessop is way wrong.
As always JMO/IMO.

lotty

08-21-2008, 04:25 PM

Originally posted by grammybear
Hi Lotty,

I am sure we are going to see a lot of charges come done. Texas is not like Utah or AZ, thank goodness.I love my state but do question a lot of things concerning the FLDS. Will Jeffs have to be in cour tomorrow? It is awful quiet right now. I wonder what this group is planning now. I hope it will not turn violent.

Thanks for the update. [/*]

Grammy,
I don't think WJ has to appear tomorrow (I could be wrong) if someone knows please tell us.
Last I had read, his lawyers were trying to get all of this sent back before another grand jury. It should be a hearing. I don't know, a lot of the legal jargon is over my head. I always appreciate laymen's terms.:seeya:

tophound

08-21-2008, 05:46 PM

Here's a 'cut and paste' from another blog. I couldn't have described this better if I tried.

"I think it is very, very hard for the average person raised in America, today, to understand the extreme cultural differences in FLDS society.
We in Western Culture have a very sexually oriented life. Everything, from toys to clothes to entertainment, etc. defines roles and sexuality. We spend much of our lives making ourselves attractive, either physically, emotionally, intellectually, or all three, in being sexually attractive to another.
We have moved away from victorian views. We have decided that our sexuality is a part of our everyday selves. We have sexual relations for pleasure and not just procreation. Often not for procreation, at all.
We don't even think about it. It is just who we are as a people in 2008.
So it is extremely hard to imagine, forget accept, an entire group of people who have, and continue to, sublimate their sexuality. By choice. Marriage is not about sex. Sex is about having children. Marriage is the forum for raising children. Marriage is a set of partnerships to enhance having children and raising them.
Marriage is about loving a set of people. A growing and expanding set of people who are all interconnected because of the vows of marriage and the responsibility of raising and nurturing children. Very, very different stuff than what most of us are accustomed to.
So we almost automatically apply our beliefs and standards to what they do....and we see a bunch of horny men with licence to screw multiple nubile young girls at will.....
And it just isn't about that...not at all....and we can't get our arms around the difference so we say "bull ****"......
But until we do get our arms around it, we will be in constant conflict....

And the women are the biggest choice makers. No doubt about that. If a woman says "no", it really means "NO". She can say it about when she is ready to marry. She can say it about when she is ready for sexual relations. And it is honored.
No female is married until at least two things have occured; 1. her father says she is ready, and 2. she says she is ready.
And marriage is actually 'betrothal'. It is the beginning of courtship, not the end. The marriage is not consumated until SHE says she is ready. A violation of this can cause major problems in a man's life.
And, although I haven't seen it discussed, I have inferred, sexual activity ends with menopause. Period. No more.
Whether this is right or wrong, good or bad, doesn't matter. It is their chosen culture and rules of existence. And we have no business passing judgment on it. And the women, not just the men, have made this choice."

tophound

08-21-2008, 08:14 PM

What Carolyn forgets to tell folks is that she, not Barbara, or the other wives, was the one who wanted things all of the time. And got whatever she wanted. Car(s), college education, fancy appliances, fancy bedroom sets, and more. The point came when her husband started to say "no" to some of her requests because there just wasn't the money. That is when she left. Not "escaped". Left. Drove away in the middle of the afternoon.

And another thing I don't think many folks realize is that many of the women have college degrees or training beyond highschool. Amongst them there are RNs, EMTs, certified teachers, nurse-practitioners, certified mid-wives, accountants, including CPAs.....
almost every household has at least one computer with internet access. Most have cell phones and iPods and digital cameras...

Painting these women as some sort of country bumpkins with no minds is as unfair as any of the accusations of abuse. And most of the marriages are not between oldeer men and young women. Most marriages are between young men and young women. If you look at the bishop's records for marriages that were seized from the YfZ Ranch, many of the marriages were monogomous. Many were young couples with young children.

And, with all of the publicity, don't you think these women and teenagers know that there are droves of people on the 'outside' ready, willing, and able to help them make the move to secular life? They do know! And they don't want to leave. Period. The ones who want to go, do go.

There communities are not perfect. They could use help with many things. But who wants help that is predetermined by others and shoved down your throat?
Why don't the authorities sit down with the FLDS, women and men, and ask them what kinds of help they need? That would open the door to dialogue and some of the harder, "testier" subjects could be broached....

The people at the helm, currently, have certainly shown a willingness to talk. Not be bullied, but to talk.

walton

08-21-2008, 09:20 PM

Tophound how do you know what Carolyn asked Merril?

Can you tell me who had the keys? And who now has the keys?

If Warren confessed that he was no longer the Prophet and that Willie should take his place, is Willie the Prophet?

If Warren was never the Prophet than that means Rulon wasn't either. It means the FLDS have been following false Prophets.

If the confession was bunk than why is Willie trying to walk on water?

Just curious :shrug:

tophound

08-21-2008, 10:07 PM

Many. many students go beyond the eigth grade. Some go to public schools in Salt Lake, some continue as homeschoolers, some go to Centennial Park..
The older children at YfZ had a full high school curriculumn at the ranch school.
The idea that this is an uneducated group is ridiculous. There are men who are engineers, computer scientists, technicians, other skilled technology jobs....they have Dr.s and dentists and geologists and you name it amongst their ranks....
Warren is the prophet. He will name his successor when it is time. Willie Jessop is a public spokesperson for the elders of the community.
It does "seem" that the bishops are beginning to approach some issues with a different perspective than in the past. Perhaps the Prophet has told them to do this. Perhaps they are acting in a way they believe the prophet would want them to. Either way, it's encouraging. But it is very difficult to change old ways when you are being villified daily and watched like a hawk, and constantly put on the defensive.

walton

08-22-2008, 08:25 AM

Originally posted by Texas-SE

Hey walton, Warren's not a profit, he's a gansta! Check this out, it had me ROFLMAO!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xg29DVQ5g7Q

:biggrin: [/*]

Hey there Texas :) Very good to see you.

I wish I could see it. When I moved my computer from the garage back into my office I think the hubby did something to the computer.

I haven't been able to hook up to Youtube since. :mad: I go over there but there is no screen to click on. No Dean Martin, No Ricky Nelson, No Numa Numa no nothing.

I went into the help thing but still can't find anything to help me.

Did ya get the book yet? I got it but I haven't started reading that one yet. They had a book fair thing down in Utah and all three signed it. Cool huh?

walton

08-22-2008, 08:41 AM

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_10273216

Barbara Jessop is breaking her silence to describe the traumatic Tuesday separation from her daughter. The teen - allegedly married to sect leader Warren S. Jeffs in 2006 - is the only FLDS child now in state care.

I am glad she is at least talking to the news people.

With all the education/ electrical gadgets that Tophound say these people have you would think that Barb Jessop should have known to talk inside the courtroom.

Barb Jessops daughter wasn't taken away from her. She has now given her daughter away. Not once but twice. First to Warren Jeffs and now with her lack of "talking" inside the courtroom.

She can stand her ground inside a jail cell imo.

tophound

08-22-2008, 09:35 AM

What I am trying to show people is that the "average" FLDS member IS a good and decent person.
I am also trying to debunk the myth that the women are all these poor, uneducated, waifs, just waiting to be rescued.
I think a major part of why they have distanced themselves from everyone on the outside and appear to be so secretive is that they have a long, long history of being misrepresented, misinterpreted, and persecuted. They have collectively learned not to trust.
On the other hand, when people who genuinely mean them no harm, have the opportunity to meet with them, or with some individuals, they are warm and open and friendly and very, very willing to answer questions and be open about their beliefs.
I think they have, just as any collection of people has, some bad apples. I think some crimes occur. Some crimes occur in any group. I think alot of what folks are citing is actually lower in their community than in others. They are raising well mannered kids, free from the influences of video games and violent television. Kids who know how to play "Red Rver" and "Hide and Seek" and games I played as a child.
When teens in larger society get pregnant, and many of them do, the abortion rate goes up, the maternal morbidity goes up, poor or no pre-natal care happens...the probability of dropping out of school is sky high, all sorts of bad things. When a woman, of any age, in the FLDS becomes pregnant she gets the best of nutrition, the best of prenatal care, everything....
I think crimes should be prosecuted. On the other hand, I think when it comes to the punishment stage in the prosecution, each individual set of circumstances needs to be taken into acount. Some of these men probably should be jailed. On the other hand, some should get nothing more than perhaps probation. It has to be individualized.
And I think we as larger society need to back up from our judgmental buy-in to the naysayers, get to know these people from objective information and personal interactions and perhaps, in that way create an atmosphere conducive to positive changes....changes that have a chance of being real and not show, changes that can be sustained....

lunchlady

08-22-2008, 10:17 AM

tophound:
If FLDS wants to survive as an organization then they need to help clean up the mess from the top down. The group will be judged by the bad apples, especially if the bad apples are the one in charge of the whole shooting match. And they do have to obey the laws of whatever state they are living in or they are risking prosecution. And if they want to break the law then they will have to be underground, which means no big ranches and huge white temples etc.

I don't think "marriage" to girls as young as 12 is ever going to be acceptable to the outside world, and I can't understand why it is acceptable to FLDS members even if the rules you describe are really true and are usually followed. Didn't some eyebrows raise when Jeffs took adolescent "brides"? If not then I just can't understand. Just because a girl has gotten her period and is interested in sex doesn't mean she should start having sex and having babies, at least not in my book. Community support for pregnant teens is nice but it seems to me that its just part of the support for the big baby machine. Also the FLDS teen pregnancies are not accidents, they are part of the plan.
What sort of support would FLDS women ask for if they were asked? I would guess that they want more government support for their baby machine, which I would like to see turned off. "Leave us alone and give us more welfare money so we can buy more food clothes diapers houses cars etc." Sorry, you can go get a job in the outside world if you want money from the outside world, but I suppose that would cut into their baby making time. If they think they deserve freebies because they are so godly then they are arrogant and wrong.
The prophet scheme is just a hoax, IMO. May God smite all their false prophets, and it seems that the smiting has already started. I can believe that many of the rank and file FLDS are living godly lives and treat each other reasonably well overall, but they need to take a closer look at who they are going to take orders from.

lotty

08-22-2008, 10:20 AM

If most of the FLDS are good and decent people...then the ones that left the FLDS of their own accord would be as well...correct? After all they have had the same religious teaching, education, and values instilled in them. I have read quite a few accounts of former members on the internet, and not just Flora, Carolyn, or Elissa.

The former members I have read about, even when describing something terrible are always careful to be clear that they love the families they left behind, that they appreciate the lifestyle choices, except for a few things depending on the person and their experience.

When I hear current members speak of members who left, words, such as: bitter and hateful are used.

With all things being equal and the truth running somewhere down the middle...I will take my chances with those who left. They show enough care and respect for those who are still members, which as far as I have read, seen, and heard is not returned by members of the FLDS.
As always JMO/IMO.

lotty

08-22-2008, 10:27 AM

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_10273212
Texas grand jury indicts three more polygamous sect members
Officials won't specify the charges; six others were charged last month
By Brooke Adams
The Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated: 08/22/2008 06:13:12 AM MDT

ELDORADO, Texas - A Texas grand jury on Thursday indicted three FLDS members on unspecified felony charges, according to a county clerk.

tophound

08-22-2008, 10:35 AM

I think when anyone approaches another with a judgmental attitude and carries on about what 'they have got to do', they are going to be recieved with hostility.
We each can no more judge what another chooses to believe in than the man-in-the-moon.
I may question anyone who believs in a "loving god" who allows people to suffer or go to 'hell'. I may think it's a bunch of bunk that some people go into their churches and eat a wafer and call it the body of someone who died over 2000 years ago. So what!?
Fact is, I think transmogrification is a bunch of bunk. But it is my right to do so.
I think some folks want to do nothing but piss and moan and complain and feel all sorts of self righteous. They don't really want to help.
I think for those who do want to help the FLDS, or any group that has gotten off he path of getting along without breaking the law, well, those are the people who stop being judgmental and back up. They review what is FACT. Proveable FACT and not something that is perhaps the stretched truths or outright imaginations of angry folks. They look at the facts, they look at the individuals. They look at the cultural differences. And they approach with kindness and respect and they walk the walk of decency and kindness.
And I think everyone needs to look at the trampling on civil rights and liberties that has taken place, and continues to do so, in Texas, today. Because if they can do it to them, now. They can do it to you or me, tomorrow. Our government has gotten out of control. And if we don't stand up and say "STOP" to the Texas authorities, we are in deep doo doo.
Ther is a right way and a wrong way to do things.
Passing laws deliberately to set up a group is wrong. Going in like gestapo is wrong. Taking the word, paying for it even, of a known trouble maker, Flora, is wrong. Not checking facts is wrong. Making rulings on affidavits that don't pass the required legal thresholds of establishing probable cause is wrong. Judging people out-of-hand, is wrong.
And sitting around, day after day, with a bunch of like minded cronies saying "aha!" and not actually doing anything helpful is wrong!
The list goes on and on...but you get my point.
Folks can be complacent in their biases or they can put them to the test and actually behave in more Christlike ways....and I don't think Christ would sit a computer bad mouthing folks hours on end. He would get off his duff and actively try to help. and he would advise his followers to do the same...
Let ye who is without.......

tophound

08-22-2008, 10:43 AM

When you hear FLDS speak about members who have left in terms like "bitter, angry", they are speaking about the Floras and Carolyns....not others of their families living in the outside world. Every family in the FLDS has family members outside that they continue to have good relations with.
And, for years and years they said nothing publically about the Floras and Carolyns. It is only now that they have been boxed into this horrible place that some of them are finally speaking out. And it is with terrific difficulty. They truly believe in loving and forgiving. To this day Flora or Carolyn or any of those who are making a life out of being a victim would be welcomed home if they wanted to return.
Absolutely no one, the FLDS themselves included, are saying they are a perfect people. No one,, including the FLDS, are saying Warren Jeffs is perfect. That is outsider language. They are the first to say that Warren Jeffs is human, first. That all of the prophets before him were human, first. And that human beings are not perfect. We all make mistakes. And mistakes are for learning and to be seen as catalysts for change.
We have put them on the defense. And then we act surprised and judgemental when they behave defensively.
As a whole, we are showing the ugliest side of American behaviors.

lunchlady

08-22-2008, 10:44 AM

tophound:
So what sort of help would be helpful? And why are you apparently spending so much time on the computer yourself? I will admit that I spend about an hour a day on my computer, which includes lots of activities besides this message board.
I think the legal actions of Texas are needed, if also not perfectly carried out. Simply leaving FLDS alone is not acceptable, and FLDS doesn't seem to be able to police itself in regard to following the law. Unless FLDS relocates to another country or secedes from the nation then the local laws apply to them.

Roux

08-22-2008, 10:58 AM

Originally posted by lotty
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_10273212
Texas grand jury indicts three more polygamous sect members
Officials won't specify the charges; six others were charged last month
By Brooke Adams
The Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated: 08/22/2008 06:13:12 AM MDT

ELDORADO, Texas - A Texas grand jury on Thursday indicted three FLDS members on unspecified felony charges, according to a county clerk. [/*]

Does Warren have to appear at the hearing today? If his atty is successful in his assertion that the indictment was faulty, will Warren be transferred to TX for the Sept 8 hearing?

tophound

08-22-2008, 11:04 AM

You have never, not once, read anything I have written saying the laws are not applicable to the FLDS.
I have written that I believe it was wrong to change the laws specifically to target the FLDS. Which is precisely what Texas did. And You have seen me write that arbitrary application of the law is wrong. Which is what is happening to the FLDS. And if I haven't written it here, I have written it elsewherre that governmental agencies must behave within the law. Which they have not done in Texas.
What you have seen me write is that when it reaches the point of imposing sentences for any who may ultimately be found guilty of violating one or mor laws, then it is important to impose sentencing in a very individual manner. And the law not only allows that, but encourages that.
As for changes, or help, well certainly extending scientific knowledge to eliminate Fumarase Deficiency,, probably through genetic testing, would be one area....
Helping to create anti-bullying programs and tolerance programs in public schools so that FLDS children can attend without persecution....
Welcoming them as new neighbors...unlike what has happened to the group of grandmothers in Colorado....
Maybe if the community there had knocked on their door with a nice homemade pie and said "hello, welcome." Instead of bringing in "Laurie" to rile everyone up, the outcome would have been very different....
Maybe just a smile in the grocery store would help.....
Maybe instead of talking about how 'strange' the prairie dresses look, one could take time to notice the beautiful workmanship that has gone into that same 'strange' dress....
Maybe instead of criticizing everything, folks could praise their ability to raise their children without them becoming video junkies or teaching them to play games without directing violence at each other...because they aren't hammered with it through the media everyday of their little lives....
Maybe, although they have taken it to the extreme, we could take some good lessons from them about getting back to a simpler life. Maybe there is some point of balance between their austere lives and our overly indulgent lives that we could all strive for...and thank them for the example of how well it can work.....

tophound

08-22-2008, 11:07 AM

I haven't criticized spending time on the computer. My job involves many, many hours on the computer, everyday...
I am criticizing spending so much time, and it isn't just this forum, with all the back patting each other for biases and bigotted thinking that does nothing to help anyone...
Perhaps I'm wrong, but I do try to make sure my time on these forums is spent trying to push people to think a little more opennly and broadly and to move toward actually doing positive things....

tophound

08-22-2008, 11:09 AM

In order for Warren Jeffs to be present at any upcoming hearings, Texas has to move to extradite him. So far there have been no motions filed to do that. He has been served, through counsel, with copies of the indictments.

walton

08-22-2008, 11:51 AM

Originally posted by tophound
I think when anyone approaches another with a judgmental attitude and carries on about what 'they have got to do', they are going to be recieved with hostility.
We each can no more judge what another chooses to believe in than the man-in-the-moon.
I may question anyone who believs in a "loving god" who allows people to suffer or go to 'hell'. I may think it's a bunch of bunk that some people go into their churches and eat a wafer and call it the body of someone who died over 2000 years ago. So what!?
Fact is, I think transmogrification is a bunch of bunk. But it is my right to do so.
I think some folks want to do nothing but piss and moan and complain and feel all sorts of self righteous. They don't really want to help.
I think for those who do want to help the FLDS, or any group that has gotten off he path of getting along without breaking the law, well, those are the people who stop being judgmental and back up. They review what is FACT. Proveable FACT and not something that is perhaps the stretched truths or outright imaginations of angry folks. They look at the facts, they look at the individuals. They look at the cultural differences. And they approach with kindness and respect and they walk the walk of decency and kindness.
And I think everyone needs to look at the trampling on civil rights and liberties that has taken place, and continues to do so, in Texas, today. Because if they can do it to them, now. They can do it to you or me, tomorrow. Our government has gotten out of control. And if we don't stand up and say "STOP" to the Texas authorities, we are in deep doo doo.
Ther is a right way and a wrong way to do things.
Passing laws deliberately to set up a group is wrong. Going in like gestapo is wrong. Taking the word, paying for it even, of a known trouble maker, Flora, is wrong. Not checking facts is wrong. Making rulings on affidavits that don't pass the required legal thresholds of establishing probable cause is wrong. Judging people out-of-hand, is wrong.
And sitting around, day after day, with a bunch of like minded cronies saying "aha!" and not actually doing anything helpful is wrong!
The list goes on and on...but you get my point.
Folks can be complacent in their biases or they can put them to the test and actually behave in more Christlike ways....and I don't think Christ would sit a computer bad mouthing folks hours on end. He would get off his duff and actively try to help. and he would advise his followers to do the same...
Let ye who is without....... [/*]

Wow!! Did I ever tell ya about my friend JB? He got into a bad car accident and had to have a steel plate put into his head. Now JB is a hardworker. Super nice man. But every once inawhile something would kick in and he'd go running off into the field and howl at the moon. Wait... I think I did tell ya the story.

Back to the subject at hand.

Are you standing up for all Religious/Non Religious groups?

Ervil LaBaron- You already know about his group.

The Lafferty boys were taking their orders from God as well. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20030716/ai_n11402840

http://www.onlineutah.com/historysinger.shtml
After his first arrest and court appearance, Singer was allowed to teach his children at home under guidelines from the state which included testing twice a year and evaluation by a psychologist. Even though his children tested below average, the psychologist advised the school board to continue the exemption. However, Singer grew dissatisfied with the arrangement and felt that the state still had too much authority over his children. He informed the psychologist that the family would no longer comply with the state's program.

Singer faced new legal problems after 19 October 1978 when a district court awarded Dean Black a decree of divorce from Shirley Black and temporary custody of the couple's children. When authorities went to the Singer farm to pick up the children, Singer refused to surrender them.

On the morning of 18 January 1979 Singer was confronted outside his home by Utah law enforcement officers. His home was surrounded and he was told to surrender his weapon. Singer pointed a pistol at the officers and the officers responded killing Singer with multiple gunshot wounds. His wife Vickie was taken to jail and his children were placed in shelter homes. John Singer was buried in the Marion cemetery on 22 January 1979.

Follow this one thru and check out Adam Swapp shootout in Utah

And how about Chris Fink?
http://www.geocities.com/kandi2swt/DAVID2.html

father Christopher is a "self proclaimed prophet" according to police
FBI says both parents believe David is the Christ child
Abducted by Kyndra & Christopher Fink from a Salt Lake City, Ut
hospital on Sept.19, 1998. David will be 2 yrs. old in December but is the size
of a 9 month old baby. He cannot walk and will most likely by carried and wrapped
in a blanket. Parents are transients and have previously dwelled
in the wilderness areas and homeless shelters of New York,
Phoeniz, Arizona; Altoona, Pennsylvania area and Salt Lake City, Utah.
Kyndra is pregnant and due to deliver within the next 2 weeks.
David will die from deliberate starvation if not found.

***Please note that David has since been found.***

There are sooo many more.

Religious freedom is no excuse for abuse.

Tophound Texas didn't make up laws to target the FLDS. They made laws to protect the innocent.

I for one am glad they did just that and have the decency to follow thru.

Tophound could you tell me with all these fine folks that are a part of this community... Why didn't one just one go to the authorities?

A person doesn't have to be highly educated to know right from wrong. Not one person. Not even the good Doctor who gives such great care in your opinon. Not one. They watched it as a whole, they lived it as a whole.

I spend a lot of time on the computer. After I've worked at my job, hugged my husband, talked to my friends in real life, weeded my garden, walked the dog, fed the cat and the many other things I do daily. I have fallen asleep at this computer looking for answers. And I am glad that I do. Really glad.

My life isn't so full that I don't have room or the time to hear a voice calling for help. Pam Black, Ruth, Carolyn, Lenora, Johnnie Jessop Laurie Allan, Ross Chatwin.... the kids that are left at the side of the road.....the little girl who felt as if her life was being sucked right out of her.

Yup, I guess I can take a little time out of my day for those that deserve to be heard.

tophound

08-22-2008, 12:01 PM

Carolyn's book is about 90% hogwash!
And this child who was betrothed to Warren Jeffs at 12 was just that, betrothed. This is not a consumated marriage. There was no "wedding night". Or at least not one with Warren Jeffs.
To be betrothed to the prophet is an honor. It assures a very high place in the Celestial Kingdom.
I have written extensively about the FLDS practices. I guess no one remembers from one post to the next.
MARRIAGE JUST ISN'T ABOUT SEX IN THE FLDS!
And there are quite a number of young women, right now, who are 17-23/24 in the community who are not married because they have said either they are not ready of they have said no to a recommended partner.
Most member who practice polygamy, and all don't practice, have fewer than five wives. Three is typical. And the last marriage is often no later than when the husband is in his mid thirties. There are many, many monogamous couples in the community. Or couples that remain monogamous for many years and only add a sister wife at long intervals.
Barbara Jessop plead the fifth on the advice of counsel. She is heartbroken about what is happening. She knows her daughter is very, very resilliant and will, in the long run, be fine. However, her heart bleeds for her child today. And no one here knows her heart. And Carolyn is simply a liar about this. Barbara is hurting beyond belief.
Someone said they want to learn about the group, but when information is given you say it is bull. You seemingly reject anything that doesn't fit your very ugly, negative ideas about this group.
And to say they should be more part of mainstream society is the height of judgmental. Who in the heck are any of us to decide our society is better? Should all the Amish do the same? How about all the "Christian Right"? They don't fit "my society" at all. Should I say they are somehow aberrant if they don't stop what I consider crazy thinking and ways and join how I live my life?

And once and for all, PLEASE stop believing that these folks are uneducated! Or being coereced to stay. This is a choice! They each are well aware of all the agencies standing at the ready to help them leave and transition. They almost all have relatives living outside the community to help, if help is wanted. They don't WANT to leave!
And they aren't coerced into things. I have a friend who was asked to leave to repent for something he did. His wife and children chose to remain in the community. And she is there. Waiting. She has not indicated she wants a new husband. And no one is forcing her to do that. If her husband, at some point, decides he is not going to make his way back to the community, she will probably ask for a new husband, but that will be her choice.

Roux

08-22-2008, 12:08 PM

Originally posted by tophound
In order for Warren Jeffs to be present at any upcoming hearings, Texas has to move to extradite him. So far there have been no motions filed to do that. He has been served, through counsel, with copies of the indictments. [/*]

Would that request be to AZ or Utah? You seem in-the-know so perhaps you could answer our question of a few days past: why has Warren been sitting in an AZ jail rather than in prison awaiting the AZ matter?

walton

08-22-2008, 12:09 PM

Originally posted by Imperfect

Wow. Just ... wow. I feel very sorry for the 14 year-old girl. I wonder if her mother, who she can't live without but who isn't around all that much by most accounts, told her that giving her up to the state was for the greater good of the cult? :rolleyes: Sacrifices must be made, after all. Despicable what she's put that child through.

Barbara is suddenly a citizen of the US, exerting her right to take the 5th? Too bad she didn't follow the LAWS that US citizens follow. We have LAWS as well as RIGHTS. And too bad she didn't exert her rights as a MOTHER by refusing to serve up her 11 or 12 year-old daughter to the prophet.

And one last thing before I end my rant. Too bad the SLT doesn't print a similar blow-by-blow of what was going through that child's mind, and what was happening to her 11 or 12 year-old body, a few years ago when she spent her 'wedding night' with her 50 year-old husband, Warren Jeffs. [/*]

Rant away Imperfect. They say it is all about choice. She could have said no. :rolleyes: But I bet if she wanted to go to town and attend the local book fair or see the bright lights of a carnival they would have said no.

I wonder what Barb and Merril were promised for their daughters hand in marriage? What would it take for the parents to give up their child? A new pickup? A bigger house? no? a seat in the Heavens for Merril and Warren. The ladies? No promises there. If she would be lucky, she can stand next to her seated man in the Heavens.

Messed up this is. Just plain old messed up.

Roux

08-22-2008, 12:13 PM

tophound I don't want to quote your entire post due to its length, but it is not true that the marriages were not consumated. No, I was not in the room -- I base my opinion on the photo of Warren, his underage wife, and their baby and the "comfort wife" letter from the 12 yr old. Any female who has had an intimate relationship understands the implications of her words.

tophound

08-22-2008, 12:13 PM

his prison sentence is Utah. Arizona extradited him. So they get to house him until his trial comes up. He hasn't been convicted in Az. so he can't be housed in an Az. prison.
If Texas moved to extradite him, and Az. didn't object, he would sit in a county jail in Texas...not a Texas prison. When the Az. prosecution is complete, if he is convicted and sentenced, he would return to Utah, finish his time, or be paroled, then Az. would pick him up and he would start his time there...then Texas gets in line behind Az.

walton

08-22-2008, 12:17 PM

Originally posted by tophound

**snipped for space**
MARRIAGE JUST ISN'T ABOUT SEX IN THE FLDS!
[/*]

Well someone forgot to tell Warren when he was molesting Brent.

Someone forgot to tell those Allred boys that got stopped by the highway patrol.

Can you explain that? Oh yeah. They weren't married.

tophound

08-22-2008, 12:21 PM

To understand the 'why's' of the land purchase in Texas, and the 'lies', you need to go back and look at the mess with the UEP.

Once in Texas they didn't lie about the ranch. They went intotown and obtained permits, etc.

Warren Jeffs has increased the isolation, but much has been to avoid persecution. To stay quiet and under the radar.
The FLDS believe they are of the direct blood line of Ephraimites. The only people they have any preclusions from are marrying, not associating with, Cannanites. Associations and frindships are fine, although cautioned. It is believed that Satan will be born to a Cannanite.

Another reason to stay seperate is to avoid the occasions of sin and temptation. Much as the Amish believe. The Amish are, in fact, more distant and seperate than the FLDS.

walton

08-22-2008, 12:25 PM

The mess with the UEP was made by none other than their Prophets.

Are you saying that those at the Ranch owned their own homes straight out?

They didn't fess up about the hunting lodge until they were confronted.

tophound

08-22-2008, 12:29 PM

oops...I forgot to explain something in my last post.
Someone asked how Warren can "reassign", and that is an outsider term, by the way, a new husband and such.
A marriage for time and eternity is only to a priestholder. If a man loses his priesthood, the marriage is null and void. Everyone who is asked to leave the community and repent does not necessarily lose his priesthood. So for those marriages, they are considered 'intact'.
A woman can only enter the highest levels of the celestial kingdom if she is married for time and all eternity to a priesthood holder. So that is why, if her husband is nolonger a priesthood holder she would ask that she recieve a new husband to assure her place in the afterlife.
Again, it is their culture. It is not our right to judge. These are the same beliefs held by the LDS, by the way. They just keep it quiet. And wait to be widowed or whatever to take on and be sealed to the next wife.
So if you really think this is a strange belief system, you might want to think twice if Romney is the GOP Veep selection. I personally think anyone has the right to any belief system they choose. But I do think some are pretty far out....I think Scientology is out there...
But it's not my place to judge. But do I want someone who has these beliefs with their finger anywhere near "the button"?

Roux

08-22-2008, 12:31 PM

Just another thought on the arrogance. I am sick to death of FLDS apologists and defenders bringing up the fact that their children are not addicted to video games, eat healthy food, are so well behaved, etc. ad nauseum. They, by inference, are saying that they and their children are superior. That is simply not true. The majority of families in my acquaintance have children and grandchildren who do well in school & sports, are mannerly, and not addicted to the trash on TV. My granddaughters do not dress like Brittany, and are smart, healthy, well-rounded girls.

lotty

08-22-2008, 12:32 PM

:shrug: I'm completely confused. If the FLDS is not adverse to associating with family members that have left FLDS. Someone please explain to me why Bruce Wisan has filed suit in *.C. against the FLDS school with Mr. Palmer as the head of the Bountiful group because they refuse to allow Mr. Blackmore's children into the school. Their beliefs are the same, except Mr. Blackmore refuses to acknoweledge W.J. as profit?

If they are so kind hearted and forgiving why don't they let Mr. Blackmore's children into the school?

I really need to hear an explanation so I can understand...I just don't get it.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008090555_apcanadapolygamistschool.html
Lawsuit filed over polygamist sect school in *.C.
A court-appointed official from Utah is trying to take over a school run by the polygamist Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in southeast British Columbia.
TIA any explanation... JMO/IMO & all that jazz.

Just an article:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008090555_apcanadapolygamistschool.html
VANCOUVER, British Columbia —
A court-appointed official from Utah is trying to take over a school run by the polygamist Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in southeast British Columbia.

Roux

08-22-2008, 12:47 PM

Originally posted by tophound
oops...I forgot to explain something in my last post.
Someone asked how Warren can "reassign", and that is an outsider term, by the way, a new husband and such.
A marriage for time and eternity is only to a priestholder. If a man loses his priesthood, the marriage is null and void. Everyone who is asked to leave the community and repent does not necessarily lose his priesthood. So for those marriages, they are considered 'intact'.
A woman can only enter the highest levels of the celestial kingdom if she is married for time and all eternity to a priesthood holder. So that is why, if her husband is nolonger a priesthood holder she would ask that she recieve a new husband to assure her place in the afterlife.
Again, it is their culture. It is not our right to judge. These are the same beliefs held by the LDS, by the way. They just keep it quiet. And wait to be widowed or whatever to take on and be sealed to the next wife.
So if you really think this is a strange belief system, you might want to think twice if Romney is the GOP Veep selection. I personally think anyone has the right to any belief system they choose. But I do think some are pretty far out....I think Scientology is out there...
But it's not my place to judge. But do I want someone who has these beliefs with their finger anywhere near "the button"? [/*]

Okay, now you got me riled up. It is not "their culture," it is a false religion that is cloaked as Christianity. It is my right to judge, siince I am a Christian, as the Bible tells me to test the prophets and spirits to see if they are of God, that I will know a tree by it's fruit. All that you have stated as "their culture" is complete balderdash and hocus pocus created to keep people from the truth. Oh, and I can't give you chapter and verse but the Bible also says woe to anyone who takes from or adds to this Book.

There is no such thing as celestial marriage, there is no requirement for more than one wife except as taught by Joseph Smith.

I respect anyone who is agnostic, aethist, Jewish or any other Christian denomination as they have the right to their beliefs, but I do not respect anyone or group of people who pervert Christianity. And how do I know what beliefs are perversions? I test the prophets, spirits and fruits.

tophound

08-22-2008, 12:52 PM

Some of you folks just read what you want. Even if it isn't written!
There is no baby with the twelve year old! None!
Carolyn has repeatedly lied.
Warren Jeffs is NOT considered a god or God. He is the prophet. God speaks throughhim. But he is human and as such can, and does, err.
I'm sure there are many, very nice, well rounded children in our society. I believe my sons and grandchildren are amongst them. I also know that they have been and continue to be influenced by what is out there...no way around it...and I know, try as I did, to keep them away from junk foods and such, they still got their fair share...and I know, in the long haul, it will have harmed them...
We aren't perfect, the FLDS aren't perfect...
but our approach to them has always, and does now, really, really smack of ugly elitism....talk about a bunch of self-righteous bigots....
I for one may not be a "christian", but my actions and behaviors are far more "christ-like" than what I see on these boards and in the great state of Texas!
Try being kind and charitable. Try looking for strengths and building on them instead of thinking you're so superior you can judge.
I know I'm not superior to anyone or anything. And I sure am not going to throw any stones.
I thought this might be an interesting discussion. It's about as interesting as watcvhing slugs. All you doi is reinforce each other in your biased and bigoted beliefs.
You no more want to learn than the man-in-the-moon. You want o reinforce each other in your bigotries.

tophound

08-22-2008, 01:00 PM

roux, yours is the worst kind of bigotry. You cloak it in "christianity".
Well, the first four books of the new testament are the only ones that are true, eyewitness accounts of the life of Jesus Christ. The rest is apochraphal. Anecdotal. And there are many that were chosen not to be included...and some were not included until after the Council of Worms..
Anyway, you go to the first four and you find me any one incident or recounting of Christ acting or condonning such hateful bigotry. Just one. You can't do it. Because whether he was or is the son of God or if there is a god, or whatever, one thing for certainis he was a loving, forgiving, non-judgmental man. He was loved and respected and he openned his heart and arms to all.
So you take your elitist, bastardized, not christlike behaviors and do whatever you want...
But your ilk scare the bejesus out of me. Your ilk are the most self indulgent hypocrites I have ever encountered.
I wanted to share and hope that people would try to be a bit more open minded. I was wrong. All this site does is get me upset and not able to do my job.
Even through cyber space your hatefulness is harmful.

Roux

08-22-2008, 01:15 PM

Originally posted by tophound
roux, yours is the worst kind of bigotry. You cloak it in "christianity".
Well, the first four books of the new testament are the only ones that are true, eyewitness accounts of the life of Jesus Christ. The rest is apochraphal. Anecdotal. And there are many that were chosen not to be included...and some were not included until after the Council of Worms..
Anyway, you go to the first four and you find me any one incident or recounting of Christ acting or condonning such hateful bigotry. Just one. You can't do it. Because whether he was or is the son of God or if there is a god, or whatever, one thing for certainis he was a loving, forgiving, non-judgmental man. He was loved and respected and he openned his heart and arms to all.
So you take your elitist, bastardized, not christlike behaviors and do whatever you want...
But your ilk scare the bejesus out of me. Your ilk are the most self indulgent hypocrites I have ever encountered.
I wanted to share and hope that people would try to be a bit more open minded. I was wrong. All this site does is get me upset and not able to do my job.
Even through cyber space your hatefulness is harmful. [/*]

I did not attack you personally, merely stated my opinion as to the theology of FLDS. The people who post on here regularly know me much better than you do. I think your true colors are coming out.

tophound

08-22-2008, 01:33 PM

roux, when you tell me the FLDS is a "false religion" and you have a right to judge...well you lose all credibility as anyone who can be anything but bigoted.

imperfect, I don't disagree with you about alot of what you write. I do however think that the way to impact change is not with guns a blazin' and shoving change down people's throats. And I do believe with Warren Jeffs in jail that leadership changes are occurring. Quietly. But they are happening. And all the state is doing is locking them into a defensive position instead of working with them.

To those of you who keep asking if I am FLDS, no. I am not. I do have several very close friends who are. And one close friend who was.

Their culture is very, very different from ous. So what? Why should they raise their children to be anything other than what they believe is correct? That is how we raise our children. To fit in and do well in our culture. They are doing the same thing. Who said that we cannot have seperate sub-cultures amongst our larger meta-culture?
We're doing the same thing to the FLDS we did to the Iraqis. and look at the mess we made there.
We have no right to be so damn arrogant as to think we can dictate how people have to style their lives.
The Amish are far more seperated from our culture than the FLDS, difference is they have the same brand of "Christianity". They don't believes in gods and Gods and other planets and all the stuff that seems so threatening, so we leave them alone...they really are uneducated and completely unprepared to assimilate and their kids who leave after rummenspringen really are lost....but we don't pass laws to allow us to barge in and make them change....

They have a right to worship cantelopes if they want. And if some of them want to leave we have a responsibility to help them assimilate...but we don't have the right to kidnap them and their children and make them believe as we do. Or as some of you do.
Get over yourselves. No one died and made you boss, as my kids used to say to one another.

Who says your way or my way is better than their way?
And for all you good christians out there, wasn't the virgin mary married to joseph at about 13?

walton

08-22-2008, 01:39 PM

Originally posted by tophound
**snipped **

I wanted to share and hope that people would try to be a bit more open minded. I was wrong. All this site does is get me upset and not able to do my job.
Even through cyber space your hatefulness is harmful. [/*]

tophound :no: You have to be nice.

What is your job? (You brought it up.)

Go back thru and read some of my posts and answer my questions will ya?

1. Why does Willie try to walk on water? If he is the spokesperson what is Rod doing talking? Which is it? Rod or Willie? or better yet... why aren't these men speaking up?

2. Why wasn't there ONE person that went to the authorities?

3.Why is Barb Jessop crying to the Press saying she'd do anything to get her daughter back EXCEPT answer the questions put before her?

4. How did those living on the compound make a living?

5. Where is Warren really? and who is Patricia Keate?

6. Who has the keys?

walton

08-22-2008, 01:46 PM

Tophound said this: roux, when you tell me the FLDS is a "false religion" and you have a right to judge...well you lose all credibility as anyone who can be anything but bigoted.

Ask your FLDS friends if they know who has the keys.

If Warren was just off in Zippity Do Da Day Land when he made his confession tell me what is the Prophet Warren Jeffs doing to help his Group?

If Warren was leaning towards Zippity Land when he married that little girl he had a jump start when he molested Brent. Now if the woman are reassigned so they won't lose a spot in the Heavens why can't they be reassigned to a single man? Why must she be reassigned to another womans husband and for goodness sake why does she have to sleep with anyone for a spot in the heavens?

Aren't there enough men? Where did they all go?

Roux

08-22-2008, 01:48 PM

tophound, as to the specific question you addresed to me:
It's a matter of semantics as to the word "judge." I used it in the context, and hopefully that others would understand, that I am "weighing" actions and beliefs. There is a difference in judging and BEING judgemental. Everyone has to judge, otherwise how would one know how to make decisions? There is much misunderstanding in the phrase "judge not" IMO.

I am not "judging" anyone or anything except the stated beliefs and actions of FLDS. They profess Christianity yet their tenets and actions veer way off. You seemed to dismiss all but the first books of the NT, yet you believe all that theology created by Joseph Smith? You extoll the virtues of Christ, yet are rude and demeaning to me. I have not called you names nor been disrespectful; simply stated my beliefs.

lotty

08-22-2008, 03:33 PM

Originally posted by walton

tophound :no: You have to be nice.

What is your job? (You brought it up.)

Go back thru and read some of my posts and answer my questions will ya?

1. Why does Willie try to walk on water? If he is the spokesperson what is Rod doing talking? Which is it? Rod or Willie? or better yet... why aren't these men speaking up?

2. Why wasn't there ONE person that went to the authorities?

3.Why is Barb Jessop crying to the Press saying she'd do anything to get her daughter back EXCEPT answer the questions put before her?

4. How did those living on the compound make a living?

5. Where is Warren really? and who is Patricia Keate?

6. Who has the keys? [/*]

Very good questions...that Walton has been asking for a long, very long time. I would love to hear a journalist ask these same questions, but they don't. The answers are very important. One day maybe someone will answer them, I'm not gonna hold my breath 'til that happens though.
As always JMO/IMO.

Roux

08-22-2008, 05:21 PM

I went back to Brooke's blog to refresh my memory about the comfort wife missive and found there were actually two letters to Warren mentioned. One was from the 12 yr old and one from the 14 yr old to whom he was married/betrothed/sealed.

"Vaccuum" activity is good -- it let's you think and your mind wander. I used to do some of my best thinking while washing dishes and doing laundry!

walton

08-22-2008, 06:55 PM

Originally posted by lotty
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_10273212
Texas grand jury indicts three more polygamous sect members
Officials won't specify the charges; six others were charged last month
By Brooke Adams
The Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated: 08/22/2008 06:13:12 AM MDT

ELDORADO, Texas - A Texas grand jury on Thursday indicted three FLDS members on unspecified felony charges, according to a county clerk. [/*]

From Lotty's link: Texas authorities have said they would seek to extradite him to the Lone Star state.

Do ya think it really might happen?
I hope someone is there with the cameras.
I hope someone is there that can say- I saw Warren Jeffs and this is what he had to say.

Hey Texas-SE did ya read the Eldorado paper?

http://myeldorado.net/

Roux

08-22-2008, 09:52 PM

I felt so badly all afternoon after being called a bigot, elitist, hateful, bastardized, of an ilk to scare someone that I tried to clear my mind, re-think the whole FLDS situation.

Maybe I've been too close-minded, maybe I failed to see all sides. So I genuinely tried to have some "vaccuum activity" and assess my thought process. I am a reasonable person, try to see all sides, even sometimes have a difficult time making up my mind on some issues. But truly, sincerely I do not believe the FLDS are as harmless and benign as some would portray.

What I was trying to explain as my Christian beliefs, as opposed to FLDS Christian beliefs, was sorely misinterpreted so in the future I will make no comments regarding doctrine, tenets, creeds, or theology.

lunchlady

08-22-2008, 09:55 PM

tophound: Perhaps you are upset because our questions are getting to you, and I have also noticed that you haven't addressed the really hard questions. I know that no organization is perfect, but I think FLDS is a house of cards with a Big Joker or Jokers at the helm. I can tolerate all sorts of things, but several things about FLDS really cross the line for me, in spite of how virtuous they seem to think they are compared to us outsiders.
I was living in Seattle when the Bagwhan Rajeneesh's place fell apart in Oregon. These shellshocked people with the same shade of magenta clothing all started showing up and wandering around. I read one of the Bagwhan's books and it had some great stuff in it that I still think about, but he was a corrupt sexually perverted guy in real life and a lot of people were heartbroken after getting involved in his Ranch. I think the FLDS will survive in some fashion after the current bad leadership is expunged, but bad leadership is bad leadership at some point and FLDS is better off admitting it and dealing with it than otherwise.

walton

08-22-2008, 11:10 PM

http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/

Check it out.

I haven't seen the video (my video thing doesn't work.) of Barbs daughter being handed over to CPS.

I noticed it over at BillM's site earlier today and I wondered why???

Why would any mother want to capture this moment on film?

All Barb had to do was follow the rules, all she had to do was answer the questions. She wouldn't on either. And now I see the two stories of two mothers who have lost their children. Barb and Caroline. And ya wanna know what is really twisted? Barb would do it all over again. And again. And again.

That is the difference between Barb and Caroline. One fought for her daughter to have a choice..... the other gave her daughter up.

juliekan

08-23-2008, 12:08 AM

Originally posted by Texas-SE

Hey walton, Warren's not a profit, he's a gansta! Check this out, it had me ROFLMAO!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xg29DVQ5g7Q

:biggrin: [/*]

OMG :lol:

juliekan

08-23-2008, 12:43 AM

Originally posted by tophound

Warren Jeffs is NOT considered a god or God. He is the prophet. God speaks throughhim. But he is human and as such can, and
does, err.
<snipped for bandwidth>
[/*]

So how can you prove God speaks through him? Who gets to decide if what comes out of his mouth is true, or being human, is an error? And if it is an error, and he talks his followers into doing whatever he has said, isn't he putting their souls in a perilous place?

juliekan

08-23-2008, 12:49 AM

Originally posted by tophound

They have a right to worship cantelopes if they want. [/*]
<snipped for bandwidth>

Yes they do have that right.

But they do not have more rights than I do. They must follow the laws of Texas just as I have to.

juliekan

08-23-2008, 01:01 AM

Originally posted by Roux

<snipped for bandwidth>
What I was trying to explain as my Christian beliefs, as opposed to FLDS Christian beliefs, was sorely misinterpreted so in the future I will make no comments regarding doctrine, tenets, creeds, or theology. [/*]

Yes, why should you be able to have an opinion of your own on an opinion board? Leave that to our other poster who basically called Catholics and Scientologists both fruitcakes. You need not apologize to a poster who is doing the "attack the poster in order to avoid the issue" routine. MOO

walton

08-23-2008, 02:50 AM

Hey Roux I am sorry you felt like you did. It happened to me not so long ago. Plant your feet and keep sharing.:)

Tophound- really this is a very good group. I hope you keep posting as well. If you haven't seen me write it yet.. Awareness is the key.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700253097,00.html

"Of course, Warren's in jail," Schleicher County Sheriff David Doran told the Deseret News after the arrests were made. "But they were able to post bond immediately. Everything was cooperative."

Doran just blew all my conspiracy theories out the window. But that is ok. I'd rather be wrong.

further into the article: "We received a detainer, which notifies us of his warrant status," said Trish Carter, a spokeswoman for the Mohave County Sheriff's Office in Kingman, Ariz., where Jeffs is jailed.

Texas authorities have said they will seek to extradite Jeffs to face charges.

:D

lunchlady

08-23-2008, 09:12 AM

Tophound: It may have been true that Mary was 13 when she had Jesus, but the social norm in that day and place made that acceptable In our modern situation we discourage reproduction by the very young because it makes it difficult for the girl to finish school and get a job.
Community standards in FLDS allow for young girls to start their adult life very early. They might even prefer it. But since they live in the US they are going to have legal trouble.
The Amish have worked out a relationship iwth state of Pennsylvania and manybe oher states that help protect the Amish..

LLaFren

08-23-2008, 09:56 AM

I think these are the 3 that were in the last round of indictments:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/life/religion/5961357.html

Charged along with Jeffs on Thursday were Raymond Merril Jessop, 36, and Michael George Emack, 57. The pair surrendered to Schleicher County authorities Friday afternoon, said the sheriff there, David Doran. Both were released after each posted $10,000 bond, Doran said.

tophound

08-23-2008, 10:03 AM

I understand that this board is anti-FLDS. I read many of the postings when I first stumbled on the site.
I deliberately joined because it seemed that although you were anti, you also mixed in humor and real discussion.
I thought to myself, here's one group of people that, if given alternative information, perhaps they will shift their position(s). I value my time and try not to waste it. But I was willing to put some time in here. Unfortunately, from my very first post you folks went on the attack.
I have answered as many of the questions you have asked as I am able to. There are some things that are, quite frankly, none of your business. Like my line of employment, for one.
My friends who are FLDS are just that, friends. I do not grill them about their religious beliefs. I have learned some through general discussion and, of course, the events this year.
What I have tried to pass on to you is my more intimate knowledge of them as people.
I don't hob nob with Warren Jeffs or the religious leadership. I have made friends with average, everyday folk.
And what I have found is that they are genuinely decnt, good, honest people.
I have yet to find an organized religion that doesn't have its spooky, bizarre aspects. Some more overt than others, but they all have 'em.
I personally find anyone who buys into any of them, lock, stock, and barrel, a bit nuts. It is outside my reality.
I do, however, value my right to believe what I want. And yours to do the same. And I do, wholeheartedly believe, when that right is threatened for any one of us, it is threatened for all of us.
The FLDS were targeted. And they have been for many, many years. They are not the only "fundamental" biblical, patriarchal, religious sect in this country. They are not the only polygamous group in this country. They are, however, the only group that is not a "fly by night cult' to have been the target and object of persecution for almost a century.
I find this reprehensible. We as a society have so much good information available to us. We have so many bright, capable people, willing to give of themselves. We have such an incredible knowledge base of human dynamics and how to deliver human serives in meaningful, sustainable ways. Yet with this group, particularly now in Texas, we have just barged into their lives, disrupted their existance, damaged their childrren and families in some ways that may be irreparable, all because we think they are "weird".
And, because their beliefs fly in the face of "common Christianity", no one is really standing up for them. Somehow because they are so different, and different in ways that we find offensive, like their belief that the men can become gods with their own planets, wwe not only have not taken a stand for them, we sit back and feel they somehow "deserve" whatever they get.
There is something fundamentally wrong with this. And I guess I thought that if there is a group of people willing to spend time thinking and typing their thoughts, then perhaps they can shift their thinking and spend some of that time brainstorming and finding ways to impact our lawmakers to stop the travesty that is happening. Perhaps to go a step further and demand that our lawmakers not only stop the current behaviors but use the good information and ability to positively impact to mend fences, create partnerships, and help this community move forward with practices that don't compromise their beliefs yet serve to protect the interests and well being of all the members of the community.

Clearly my thinking was askew. This group seems to have found a comfort zone in being hateful and condemning and is not interested in being solution oriented.
I appologize for thinking otherwise.

LLaFren

08-23-2008, 10:31 AM

All of the following post is My Opinion Only:

Tophound,

I've been following the flds since the Warren Jeffs trial, I personally have no objection to anyone worshipping whoever or whatever they please.

Do whatever you want in the privacy of your own home, I don't care.

But whatever you do or worship, it had better fall within the laws of the land regarding children (defined as anyone under the age of 18).

My Grandmother was 14 when she got married, times were differant then, and her 8th grade education was equivalant to what would be a High School education today (have you ever seen the test they had to take to graduate from 8th grade?).

What was acceptable 100 years is not acceptable today, and it's not just marriagable age, it's the right to vote, it's racism, it's the right to an education and the right of women to decide.

You seem to be longing for a way of life that is no longer acceptable to the general population and even more importantly, IS AGAINST THE LAW!

Advocating for FLDS to me is the same as advocating for pedophiles and rapists because by law that's what they are.

It's not a choice, if you are given no other choices or the knowledge that there are choices available.

My Choice is to be an advocate for those who are given no choice to learn what choices there are. And I will continue to support LE in their efforts regarding FLDS.

tophound

08-23-2008, 10:37 AM

LLaFren,
You can support anything you so choose. Isn't that what this country's beliefs are predicated on? Free choice?
Problem with your choice is that LE, as you refer to the State's Authority as, is that their approach(es) have not worked. And, based on what we know of human dynamics and behavior, their approach will continue to fail. And, the saddest part is, families are devastated in their wake.
Isn't it time to start thinking about a different way to accomplish the changes you believe are needed? Or at least find points of compromise and ways to begin sustainable change?
Or, in the alternative, you can continue to be an 'armchair naysayer' and do nothing but feel self-righteous in your views....views that hurt other human beings, by the way.

walton

08-23-2008, 10:38 AM

Tophound I am sorry I asked you about your job. You said you worked on the computer a lot during the day. I only meant to pry a little.

My video thingy isn't working on my computer and I can't even get youtube anymore. I think my husband was getting jealous of Dean Martin and Ricky Nelson and he hated Numa Numa.

I was looking for free advice to fix my video thingy.

LLaFren

08-23-2008, 10:53 AM

Originally posted by tophound
LLaFren,
You can support anything you so choose. Isn't that what this country's beliefs are predicated on? Free choice?
Problem with your choice is that LE, as you refer to the State's Authority as, is that their approach(es) have not worked. And, based on what we know of human dynamics and behavior, their approach will continue to fail. And, the saddest part is, families are devastated in their wake.
Isn't it time to start thinking about a different way to accomplish the changes you believe are needed? Or at least find points of compromise and ways to begin sustainable change?
Or, in the alternative, you can continue to be an 'armchair naysayer' and do nothing but feel self-righteous in your views....views that hurt other human beings, by the way. [/*]

I do my part, my family is an emergency placement Foster Family and I'm a counselor for a residential alcohol/drug rehabilitaion facility. I see the heartbreak every day of families being torn apart from either CPS, the courts, or a clients addiction, but I've yet to have a single case of it being the "will of the profit" oops sorry prophit, and my sister is a Guardian Ad Litem for the courts. There are no points of comprimise in my opinion when it comes to children.

O/T - Walton if you PM me with what your computer is not doing, I may be able to point you towards a solution. LL

tophound

08-23-2008, 11:15 AM

determine what video card your computer has and do a search for downloadable drivers for it...usually the manufacturer has them on their site. Or they will have a 'contact us' link where you can ask for help in repairing it....
You might have to reinstall it....just let it write over the current installation. That will repair all the dll and other shared files.....

tophound

08-23-2008, 11:25 AM

LLaFren
Florida, at one time, had one of the best children's service systems in the country. You were leaders in developing good, community based services for families. You were amongst the first to introduce the cross-system use of inter-agency teams and family partnering.
Unfortunately, Florida has fallen off the bottom of the charts in the past ten years. You have a horrific Residential service system with one of the countries highest rates of injuries and deaths of children in care.
Your out of home placement rate is embarrassing. It seems that often, no attempt is made, much less real and adequate attempts to keep children in their families.
So I'm not sure I would brag about being part of a system in failure.
And if you believe that you can create real, meaningful, sustainable change in a community of people by forcing it down their throats, well then I have a bridge to sell you.
Change comes incrementally, in baby steps, with all the stakeholders having ownership in identifying the need, choosing the process, and helping to actualize it and then, and only then, scaling it out.
And, by the way, foster placement is the second most traumatizing service for children on the entire continuum. Second only to residential centers with a militaristic structure. I don't care whether you are the world's number one mother or the worst possible mother. Just placing a child in your home, or any other foster home is in and of itself extremely traumatizing and damaging to the child. PTSD is a given for those children.
In fact, the most recent studies show that shelter placement is less traumatizing to children than foster placement.

LLaFren

08-23-2008, 12:07 PM

Time to take my own advice.

juliekan

08-23-2008, 01:07 PM

http://www.coramnonjudice.blogspot.com/

Texas law regarding marriage, since 1913

Also, FLDS criminal cases, a primer on Texas standards of proof

Both good reads, as always

Roux

08-23-2008, 01:36 PM

Originally posted by juliekan
http://www.coramnonjudice.blogspot.com/

Texas law regarding marriage, since 1913

Also, FLDS criminal cases, a primer on Texas standards of proof

Both good reads, as always [/*]

On TX law regarding marriage since 1913, that would dispel the notion that TX changed the law in 2005 in order to target the FLDS. Although I have read that the legislator who proposed the change in age did voice his concerns specifically to FLDS.

I was especially interested in his comments on the efforts by the FLDS attorneys to suppress the evidence seized at the ranch. Barbara's atty Rios brought that up, as well as Warren's atty at his AZ hearing yesterday. Obviously they will try very vigorously to keep all the seized information out of the various proceedings.

juliekan

08-23-2008, 01:39 PM

Here's some humor:

our new poster says she is not flds, but has flds friends(I thought they were not to consort with non believers) AND ex-flds friends. That sounds like a man's ex-wives, his present wife, and his new girlfriend all sitting down to lunch together. All they'd have to talk about is HIM. :D

tophound

08-23-2008, 01:40 PM

Imperfect,
There is no need to discuss Warren Jeffs in order to have a conversation about change.
You want salacious sensationalism. Not real dialogue.
Jeffs is in jail. He has relinquished the presidency.
If the idea is to move folks toward making better choices and decisions in their lives, then the discussion needs to be "How do you start that dialogue?" not "Let's talk about Warren Jeffs."

Do you want to be a change agent or do you want to stroke your own need for feeling justified in having angry closed minded beliefs?
Are you willing to open your thinking processes and use them to exchange ideas about moving forward, or do you just want to hear tearjerk stories of lousy lives?

I'm more than willing to engage in a dialogue about how to start changing things...in a real and sustainable way. I am more than willing to take ideas to a forum where I know the leadership of the FLDS is tuned in...
But I am not willing to spend my time fighting with you folks any further.

juliekan

08-23-2008, 01:43 PM

Originally posted by Roux

On TX law regarding marriage since 1913, that would dispel the notion that TX changed the law in 2005 in order to target the FLDS. Although I have read that the legislator who proposed the change in age did voice his concerns specifically to FLDS.

I was especially interested in his comments on the efforts by the FLDS attorneys to suppress the evidence seized at the ranch. Barbara's atty Rios brought that up, as well as Warren's atty at his AZ hearing yesterday. Obviously they will try very vigorously to keep all the seized information out of the various proceedings. [/*]

...and remember when Rios was having a disagreement with Judge Walther about a "review" of info being put before the court against Barbara Jessop, Judge Walther offered him a chance to enter ALL evidence from the ranch for his case and he quickly stopped arguing his point.

Roux

08-23-2008, 02:14 PM

I watched the video of Merrianne and it was heart wrenching. However, as in so many instances it seems designed for maximum drama. FLDS never seem to miss an opportunity to spin the situation and manipulate public perception of the cruelty being imposed on them by LE & CPS.

Also I find it very difficult to believe, as Willie said, that CPS threatened to take Barabara's children away if the media was there. Of course, as I've stated before, I have absolutely no experience with CPS so maybe they do threaten people like that. Or just maybe Willie twisted the truth a little?

juliekan

08-23-2008, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by Roux
I watched the video of Merrianne and it was heart wrenching. However, as in so many instances it seems designed for maximum drama. FLDS never seem to miss an opportunity to spin the situation and manipulate public perception of the cruelty being imposed on them by LE & CPS.

Also I find it very difficult to believe, as Willie said, that CPS threatened to take Barabara's children away if the media was there. Of course, as I've stated before, I have absolutely no experience with CPS so maybe they do threaten people like that. Or just maybe Willie twisted the truth a little? [/*]

Once again, the children are just pawns in the power plays of the adults.

walton

08-23-2008, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by tophound
**snipped**

Are you willing to open your thinking processes and use them to exchange ideas about moving forward, or do you just want to hear tearjerk stories of lousy lives?

I'm more than willing to engage in a dialogue about how to start changing things...in a real and sustainable way. I am more than willing to take ideas to a forum where I know the leadership of the FLDS is tuned in...
But I am not willing to spend my time fighting with you folks any further. [/*]

You are wrong evalles/ I mean tophound. Warren Jeffs and the history has everything to do with this. It isn't about CPS. It is about Warren Jeffs, the FLDS and everything that goes along with it.

Lousy lives? lol

You are losing your touch dearone.

I thought I remembered visiting with you a little bit before. That is why I mentioned my friend JB. And really JB is a very nice guy. He just howls at the moon every once in awhile.

Check this out Tophound... Maybe?

Here is the link: http://www.flds.ws/ There might be more activity on there if BillM wasn't always putting someone/something/everything down. jmo

It has to be hard looking out those windows when the shades keep getting pulled shut. Open them up Tophound.

Oh.... the leadership of the FLDS isn't tuned in. That has been the problem all along. I think there was a short circuit longgggg ago.
Long before Warren and way before Rulon.

Roux

08-23-2008, 04:15 PM

I don't remember where I read it late last night, but about Warren's hearing yesterday, Judge Conn is supposed to make a decision next week on the admissability (or whatever the correct term is) of the Grand Jury's indictment. It's all very confusing to me, but the AZ thing could drag on a long time, and that's why I'm wondering about the extradition to TX. What determines which state takes precedence? The Texas hearing is Sept 8 and we know that in all probability AZ won't be finished with Warren. I don't want punitive "cowboy" justice, but do believe that Texas won't dilly dally like Utah and Arizona have in the past.

withay

08-23-2008, 11:36 PM

Originally posted by tophound
LLaFren
Florida, at one time, had one of the best children's service systems in the country. You were leaders in developing good, community based services for families. You were amongst the first to introduce the cross-system use of inter-agency teams and family partnering.
Unfortunately, Florida has fallen off the bottom of the charts in the past ten years. You have a horrific Residential service system with one of the countries highest rates of injuries and deaths of children in care.
Your out of home placement rate is embarrassing. It seems that often, no attempt is made, much less real and adequate attempts to keep children in their families.
So I'm not sure I would brag about being part of a system in failure.
And if you believe that you can create real, meaningful, sustainable change in a community of people by forcing it down their throats, well then I have a bridge to sell you.
Change comes incrementally, in baby steps, with all the stakeholders having ownership in identifying the need, choosing the process, and helping to actualize it and then, and only then, scaling it out.
And, by the way, foster placement is the second most traumatizing service for children on the entire continuum. Second only to residential centers with a militaristic structure. I don't care whether you are the world's number one mother or the worst possible mother. Just placing a child in your home, or any other foster home is in and of itself extremely traumatizing and damaging to the child. PTSD is a given for those children.
In fact, the most recent studies show that shelter placement is less traumatizing to children than foster placement. [/*]

Tophound,
You are assuming that LaFren is part of the problem; that she and her sister are some of the people not acting on the best interests of the children. When an organization has problems (I am not going to debate you there as I have not researched their issues), it only increases the problems if the "good" folks leave.
From reading LaFren's posts, I believe she is attempting to help children. Do you think it would be more beneficial to the children in FC for her to bail out?

walton

08-24-2008, 11:49 AM

I just saw this:

http://gosanangelo.com/news/2008/aug/18/flds-hearing-recessed-for-possible-deals/

Ruby Gutierrez, a CPS investigator overseeing the state's probe into the family of Merril and Barbara Jessop, said the Jessops' two children are in danger because of their parents' involvement in 10 alleged marriages of underage girls to older men.

"It is my opinion that if a 12-year-old has been married to a gentleman over the age of 15, there is no way his or her siblings do not know that," she said, "and have had to cope with that kind of a situation. (It is) not in the best interests of that 12-year-old child, or of any of the other siblings in the home."

I agree with the investigator.

Can you imagine the impact on the siblings? 12 year old sister gets married to "Uncle Rulon" the Prophet comes home and lives as a "sister wife". Do the other kids call her "Mother" ? Does she get her own bedroom?

Does she now care for the other children as her own? Does she get her own cell phone? Her own Ipod?

Sad.

walton

08-24-2008, 11:52 AM

Originally posted by Imperfect

Somebody really needs to throw a net over that guy. [/*]

The man has his own pain and is fighting it in the wrong direction. jmo

Cat2007

08-24-2008, 06:52 PM

Imperfect, as regards the worth of the wives, I keep remembering what that man said who helped Carolyn out when she was running the motel. He said she would never be more than "a piece of meat" to that man, Merill.

Cat2007

08-25-2008, 06:19 PM

Originally posted by Imperfect

I remember that often, too, Cat. He was also the first person to suggest to Carolyn that she was being abused. [/*]

Yes, he was, and he was obviously right.

walton

08-26-2008, 01:55 AM

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_10300177

In court documents filed Monday, Wisan is seeking to have Parker disqualified because of his past work on behalf of the UEP Trust.
Wisan also says the men's filing exemplifies the FLDS' refusal to acknowledge the trust has been reformed to eliminate its original religious purpose or that the sect now has no say over how its managed.
He also said that the men are using the Berry Knoll property without his knowledge or permission and "shamelessly admit that their use of the property was at the direction of the FLDS priesthood leadership," which contradicts the court's previous orders.

:)

walton

08-26-2008, 01:59 AM

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700253767,00.html

A judge in Kingman, Ariz., has declined to throw out an indictment against Fundamentalist LDS Church leader Warren Jeffs.
Mohave County Superior Court Judge Steven Conn released his ruling late Monday, denying a motion by Jeffs' attorneys to remand the case back to the grand jury. In a 14-page ruling, Conn noted the massive amounts of publicity coverage surrounding the case, but said there was nothing to show it deprived Jeffs of a fair and impartial grand jury.

Looks like Warrens attorney is starting to speak up. He isn't anything like ol' Wally. Should be interesting.

juliekan

08-26-2008, 03:23 AM

Originally posted by Imperfect
I see lots of momentum building. Unprecedented with regard to this group.

It's about time. [/*]

Utahns Say Fed Help OK Against Polygamy

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_10296478

:)

juliekan

08-26-2008, 03:38 AM

Originally posted by walton
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_10300177

In court documents filed Monday, Wisan is seeking to have Parker disqualified because of his past work on behalf of the UEP Trust.
Wisan also says the men's filing exemplifies the FLDS' refusal to acknowledge the trust has been reformed to eliminate its original religious purpose or that the sect now has no say over how its managed.
He also said that the men are using the Berry Knoll property without his knowledge or permission and "shamelessly admit that their use of the property was at the direction of the FLDS priesthood leadership," which contradicts the court's previous orders.

:) [/*]

How's Willie J getting from one end of the country to another so quick? San Angelo one day(and believe me, virtually no airline flies into SA and the $, oooh to fly out), then back up to Salt Lake another. Big red car to drive all the way to Utah? Gas ain't cheap. It's a shame their group has no money now that Wisan is in charge of the UEP trust.

LLaFren

08-26-2008, 08:37 AM

Originally posted by juliekan

How's Willie J getting from one end of the country to another so quick? San Angelo one day(and believe me, virtually no airline flies into SA and the $, oooh to fly out), then back up to Salt Lake another. Big red car to drive all the way to Utah? Gas ain't cheap. It's a shame their group has no money now that Wisan is in charge of the UEP trust. [/*]

Wasn't there talk one time of the FLDS having a private plane and an airstrip?

Does anyone else remember?

walton

08-26-2008, 09:27 AM

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0606/S00059.htm

Bistline told me at the time that the airport had been a dirt strip since the 1960s and that the town developed a $50,000 R&D airport master plan. In 1987, following the incorporation and presentation of the master plan, Colorado City received a $1 million federal grant to begin building the airport. Another $1 million federal grant followed in 1990. In 1992 it received $800,000 to pave the runways. And in 1994, $150,000-$200,000 for water systems. In 1995 they received $200,000 for a terminal building. As Bistline and I spoke, $150,000 more was pending.

LaDell Bistline said the books for the airport were being kept in Colorado City by Kevin Barlow. When I questioned Kevin Barlow at the Colorado City municipal office about why an airport when the town didn't have a bus line, he said curiously, "I never thought for a need for a bus line. A person's got to push for a bus line."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20060324/ai_n16167140?tag=untagged

The airplane could fetch as much as $170,000 at Saturday's auction, said George Cunningham, the auctioneer and president of Cunningham & Associates. He told the Deseret Morning News as many as 20 people have expressed interest in purchasing the district's plane, which he advertised on the Web site www.auctionaz.com.

"The people who have been interested haven't been too much into the history of Colorado City," he said. "Not as much as they are questioning the history and condition of the plane."

Cunningham said the airplane has been cared for but has a lot of hours on it. Simon Consulting, the appointed receiver to oversee the Colorado City Unified School district, said it was planning at least one more auction of property

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy111.html

As the furor died down, the Colorado City school district began to systematically dismantle its classroom infrastructure -paid for with taxpayer dollars -and turn over the assets to the FLDS-controlled private schools, district records show.

Despite the decline in students, the district maintained its unusually high payroll packed with FLDS janitors, bus drivers, mechanics and secretaries - nearly all of whom receive far higher pay than the mostly 2nd Ward teachers and teacher aides, district records reveal.

In the ensuing two years after the FLDS withdrawal, district administrators, led by superintendent Alvin Barlow (who is paid $50,000 a year), plundered the district's treasury by running up thousands of dollars in personal expenses on district credit cards, purchasing expensive vehicles for their personal use and engaging in extensive travel. The spending spree culminated in December, when the district purchased a $220,000 Cessna 210 airplane to facilitate trips by district personnel to cities across Arizona.