7/01 Lewisburg Press Conf

[tonyGricar]

Just a heads up that those of you local to the State College/Lewisburg media region that there is a press conference currently being held at the park in Lewisburg (2pm EDT). Montour County DA Bob Buehner is holding it and I've already been contacted by various local tv/print media for reaction.

Haven't visited this board in a couple of months, so I'm well out of the loop on any of the current discussion. I'm not attending the press conf as I'm on vacation, but just wanted to let you all know.

[tonyGricar]

http://www.standard-journal.com/news/x833723656/Something-new-on-Gricar

[frznwsalt]

Any word what was said?

[tonyGricar]

Just did a phone interview with WJAC-TV out of Johnstown. I'd assume it'll be on the early evening news.

[Serendipitous1]

Officials Criticize Missing DA Investigation; Say Gricar Was Murdered
http://www.wjactv.com/news/16761843/detail.html

[J. J. in Phila]

They are both right on calling for a better investigation by a different agency and they did said it before.

I think it will fall on deaf ears, so far as MM and TC are concerned.

[Serendipitous1]

Montour County DA blasts Gricar investigation
http://www.centredaily.com/news/breaking_news/story/691099.html

[J. J. in Phila]

The text of Buehner's letter:

http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/691532.html

[Politigal]

About *da#m* time....

[Serendipitous1]

It would be nice to know more about the Route 15 sighting mentioned in Buehner's letter...when and where. From the way it was worded, it appears they were both traveling south on 15, somewhere between Williamsport and Harrisburg (or US 322 at Amity Hall), and at a time in the afternoon which would not have allowed the 3 pm sighting in Bellefonte.

[Serendipitous1]

Buehner resigns from PDAA in protest.
http://community.centredaily.com/?q=node/5240

[Serendipitous1]

Ray Gricar: Gone but not forgotten
http://community.centredaily.com/?q=node/5239

[Serendipitous1]

DA alleges wrongdoing in missing prosecutor case - Madeira and investigators sitting on critical information...doing nothing...ignoring certain leads...and the AG going out of his way to ignore Gricar's disappearance.

http://www.pennlive.com/newsflash/index.ssf?/base/news-64/1214956747321520.xml&storylist=penn

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by logicworks <Snip>
........ same DA who feels no need to respond to his fellow DA, also feels NO need to respond to anyone in the county, anyone who voted him into office, anyone who pays his extremely high salary. .....or CC voters, come the next DA election. No need to respond to anyone, least of all me. And I so wanted to ask him:
- what private company he sent the hard drive to...or if he was still just thinking about doing it?
- how that search for the mystery woman was coming along, more than 3 years later?
- when LE might get around to interviewing all relevant parties?
- will he fold his tent if JM is elected AG this year?
- etc. MOstupidO

[puzzled]

He makes me wanna puke! He does not give a crap about Ray and he never has! Poor Patty has to look at his face every day! He had the nerve to post on here back in the day when he should have been out busting his butt to find Ray! He is not to be trusted at all and I have said it all along! barf

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by puzzled <Snip>
He had the nerve to post on here back in the day when he should have been out busting his butt to find Ray! MM posted here?

[Serendipitous1]

logicworks - it says witness was going from LH to Hburg. That would be south. Unless slowed in traffic, 2 cars on Route 15 approach each other at 70 to 120 mph. Not conducive to seeing a driver, especially where there is a median. I was figuring more like side-by-side (as in passing). But it could be RG was heading north, in slowed traffic and where there was no median...or was stopped at an intersection, or along the road, etc.

ETA - from my experience, the only time I see a driver's face well enough to recognize him is when I am passing or being passed.

[Cloudbuster]

SJ called me earlier and gave me a update about what she saw on TV. Her PC is down and she can't get on here. She told me MM said something about it's his county and he will run it his way??? What the heck ever happened to the county being the people's county? We the people? So I guess if your in a position of power you own the county and I suppose the investagations in it? Maybe that's why someone wanted him in that position. I now question the reason why he is. Anyways SJ is upset for the family in how he said what he said. I need to read all the links to catch up. I need to look at what you got up S1 on the word south of.:rose:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster . Her PC is down and she can't get on here. She told me MM said something about it's his county and he will run it his way??? What the heck ever happened to the county being the people's county? We the people? So I guess if your in a position of power you own the county and I suppose the investagations in it? Maybe that's why someone wanted him in that position.

I was wondering about SJ.

I the quote was given above.

Ironically, one of the people that wanted MM to win (at least the Primary) was RFG.

The people have been silent so far. Hopefully, that will change!

[puzzled]

S1 I believe that MM was the one who posted that we would choke on our mouse if we knew who he was! Was that Billy Wahoo? I can't remember what his username was. He sent me a pm once when he was leaving the board.

[gstickley]

I was just able to watch 11:00 PM news on WJAC-TV. Wow! Saw BB & TM, my 2 new favorite heroes. The story was the lead in the news & was pretty lengthy. Hopefully, someone will be able to bring it to the forum; it wasn't available just now.

Thanks for allowing me to finally see & hear some 'good' news about this case. And blessings upon you, BB & TM!

[J. J. in Phila]

Though he predated me, I thought that MM was Billy Wahoo. Write William Wahoo's initials on a sheet of paper, then invert it.

Tell me the initials you get?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks



Considering the primary didn't take place until after RG disappeared, if he changed his mind, possibly he wasn't given the opportunity to 'retract'.

Silence of the people??? Hundreds of questions, never answered. "Let me get back to you later". "Any one else have any ideas?" "I'll check on that and let you know", and on and on and on...........that's not silence, JJ...... just another form of shutting the public out.
JMO [/*]

Missed leads, 20/20 vision, the anniversary pieces. There has a lot from PB, but no public outcry.

It would very unlikely to be retracted, especially since RFG praised MM's courtroom conduct. It's quite ironic now.

[Cloudbuster]

Hat's off to BB and Ted M.:)

I thought RG didn't like TC but know it's pretty obvious. CDT

• When asked about Gricar's relationship with Tom Corbett, Buehner said his knowledge on the subject was limited, but "I don't think they were close friends at all." He pointed to the Attorney General having a narcotics office in State College.

"I'm not sure they always saw eye to eye because some things overlapped."

http://community.centredaily.com/?q=node/5239

Now I know why my finger got burnt. The relationship was not a eye to eye one.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
Hat's off to BB and Ted M.:)

I thought RG didn't like TC but know it's pretty obvious. CDT

• When asked about Gricar's relationship with Tom Corbett, Buehner said his knowledge on the subject was limited, but "I don't think they were close friends at all." He pointed to the Attorney General having a narcotics office in State College.

"I'm not sure they always saw eye to eye because some things overlapped."

http://community.centredaily.com/?q=node/5239

Now I know why my finger got burnt. The relationship was not a eye to eye one. [/*]

That could explain RFG's appearance in the photo. He wasn't happy to be in TC's presence.

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


That could explain RFG's appearance in the photo. He wasn't happy to be in TC's presence. [/*]

JJ your channeling me;)
BTW SJ asked about you today.
I think TC and RG had some disagreeing going on. I need to study some more to see what surfaces.

[Serendipitous1]

Today's CDT article:
http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/691931.html

"Madeira 'did nothing' in response [to his letter], Buehner said. 'He did absolutely nothing for four weeks. This is the state that the investigation (is in) and it is shameful, it is reprehensible, and, frankly, it’s intolerable. The investigation that should have been done has not been done in this case.'”

McKnight joined Buehner in saying, "...Madeira does not appear to have interest in the case and Bellefonte police do not have the time or manpower the investigation needs. 'Clearly,' Buehner said, 'they don’t have the resources to do anything.' But Corbett will not act, Buehner said."

“'The more people who are standing up and screaming, the better,' Tony Gricar said when reached after the news conference. '(Buehner and McKnight) have a local voice there that we just don’t have. Anything that we can do to get a bigger organization with the knowledge and the manpower to investigate this, we will do.'”

[gstickley]

Press conference theme miffs cop
http://www.dailyitem.com/homepage/l..._184000019.html


Thanks, S1, for the above. (I probably won't sleep well tonight worrying about 'the chief' and his 'agitation' and his being 'miffed'.) This is the person supposedly in charge of the so-called investigation for the past 2+ years, yet he has to get a letter from BB to even think about sending the hardrive to another agency. According to the above, now he has to see if he can get the hardrive back from LA; if nothing was found in LA, why wasn't the hardrive already returned to him????? This is also the person in charge when the 'mistakements' were made by the #1 investigator DZ; wonder why he didn't catch them as they occurred or if it was more convenient to just let them slide???? This is the person who has quite enough help in his so-called investigation. Were all RG's files checked out? Were the co-workers, neighbors, etc., interviewed? What effort was made to locate the MW after the first week or so?

Bless you BB & TM . . .

[Serendipitous1]

All JMOO:

OMG - I just finished listening to WKOK's "On the Mark" today. Nearly the entire program was on Ray Gricar. Buehner called in, as did TC's flack...the snivelling KH. WKOK said they have calls out to all of the parties mentioned in yesterday's press conference, and that MM's comments would be aired in a news broadcast later today.

Anyway, KH said TC was "not available" at the moment. For a spokesperson, he was clearly nervous (shaky voice) speaking to the moderators...knowing that Buehner was listening...but KH managed to sputter through his usual dribble. Buehner put him (and his boss) down...royally. You should listen to this program. It should be available today sometime at: http://www.wkok.com/1070_WKOK/OTM.htm
On the Mark - Wednesday

[gstickley]

Check out today's CDT, People. Amazingly, Ray Gricar and yesterday's press conference is featured on Page 1. And, can you believe it, Karen Arnold's Magnificant Manuscript is also featured! Will wonders never cease??? Also, check out the 'warm & fuzzy' Comments section.

Bless you, BB & TM.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by gstickley
Check out today's CDT, People. Amazingly, Ray Gricar and yesterday's press conference is featured on Page 1. And, can you believe it, Karen Arnold's Magnificant Manuscript is also featured! Will wonders never cease??? Also, check out the 'warm & fuzzy' Comments section.

Bless you, BB & TM. [/*]

When there is news on the case, they cover it well.

This was picked up in Pittsburgh as well.

http://post-gazette.com/pg/08184/894214-100.stm

[ladyheartfixer]

I for one remember the "choke on your mouse" comment as it gave me the creeps...at the time I just dismissed it as someone with an over inflated ego...but then...who else except MM seems to have an over inflated ego in this case...MOO:rolleyes:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by ladyheartfixer
I for one remember the "choke on your mouse" comment as it gave me the creeps...at the time I just dismissed it as someone with an over inflated ego...but then...who else except MM seems to have an over inflated ego in this case...MOO:rolleyes: [/*]

It's very possible that both candidates for DA were posting, and active.

I found some of BW's comments about JKA interesting (as she did).

[gstickley]

Originally posted by gstickley
Check out today's CDT, People. Amazingly, Ray Gricar and yesterday's press conference is featured on Page 1. And, can you believe it, Karen Arnold's Magnificant Manuscript is also featured! Will wonders never cease??? Also, check out the 'warm & fuzzy' Comments section.

Bless you, BB & TM. [/*]

Well, so much for fair & unbiased reporting. The 'warm & fuzzy' Comments section is no more. Probably because it was very pro-BB, TM, RG, finally something might be happening in the so-called investigation & anti-MM & the so-called non investigation. Apparently, criticism of the current DA is a no-no. I hope you had the opportunity to read the Comments, as there appeared to be many posters disillusioned with MM.

Bless you, BB & TM.

JMO

[gstickley]

WTAJ TV has a web poll: "Do you agree with criticism of the Center Co. DA's handling of the Ray Gricar Case?"

Currently, the results are:
Yes: 316 - or 68%;
No: 149 - or 32%


Bless you, BB & TM.

[Politigal]

It's interesting to me that per the articles, Buehner had Tony & Lara's blessing to proceed ....

Buehner said he has been in contact with Gricar’s daughter, Lara, and his nephew, Tony, who has served as family spokesman. He said he had their blessing to go public with his concerns.

but I find no mention of Patty Fornicola's blessing...

hmmm

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal
It's interesting to me that per the articles, Buehner had Tony & Lara's blessing to proceed ....

Buehner said he has been in contact with Gricar’s daughter, Lara, and his nephew, Tony, who has served as family spokesman. He said he had their blessing to go public with his concerns.

but I find no mention of Patty Fornicola's blessing...

hmmm [/*]

Considering she works at the Centre County DA's office, I doubt that she could publicly stand up say her boss is an idiot (and expect to have a job the next day).

[Cinderella]

Can speaking the truth get you fired? :biggrin:

[Politigal]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Considering she works at the Centre County DA's office, I doubt that she could publicly stand up say her boss is an idiot (and expect to have a job the next day). [/*]

And explain to me why she *would* continue to work for the guy when he's done nothing on Gricar's behalf???

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by gstickley
Well, so much for fair & unbiased reporting. The 'warm & fuzzy' Comments section is no more. Probably because it was very pro-BB, TM, RG, finally something might be happening in the so-called investigation & anti-MM & the so-called non investigation. Apparently, criticism of the current DA is a no-no. I hope you had the opportunity to read the Comments, as there appeared to be many posters disillusioned with MM.

Bless you, BB & TM. Here are the reader comments regarding yesterday's article in the CDT:
http://pod01.prospero.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=1&nav=messages&webtag=kr-centretm&tid=4885

And regarding today's article in the CDT:
http://pod01.prospero.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=1&nav=messages&webtag=kr-centretm&tid=4886

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


And explain to me why she *would* continue to work for the guy when he's done nothing on Gricar's behalf??? [/*]

It's a paying job in a poor economy.

In terms of finances, the person most probably negatively effected by RFG vanishing was PEF.

[J. J. in Phila]

The comments were almost uniformly negative.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


It's a paying job in a poor economy.

In terms of finances, the person most probably negatively effected by RFG vanishing was PEF. [/*]

didn't she have a house & vehicle that were already paid for?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


didn't she have a house & vehicle that were already paid for? [/*]

And?

Neither one of those things generates income. :rolleyes:

[gstickley]

Thanks, S1.

Bless you,BB & TM.

This is for you MM, TC, & SW: barf

[J. J. in Phila]

Okay, why hasn't there been a flurry of posts on the State College board! :flamemad:

Yes, that is a rhetorical question. It annoys me that the people in Centre County are not expressing outrage!

You can't blame the press or the politicians for that!

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks

Isn't the PSP under the AG's control? So the AG's 'force' comes in to make the determination? Can they then really be called 'independent' if that is the case? Considering DetZ took months to get the box of evidence turned over to them, while never turning the other boxes of evidence over, we can only assume he must have used the now famous ' Z---Pick and choose method', same one used with the fingerprints, so hard to tell what they received and what they didn't.



They are not under the AG's Office control. The PSP is answerable to the Governor and the Commissioner is appointed by the Governor. Much like the BPD is under the administrative control of the Mayor of Bellefonte (or the manager, if the authority has been ceded by the Mayor).

Now, as pointed out, there is co-ordination, but even that isn't the question. The AG, according to his own website, has the authority to appoint a grand jury, especially in multi-jurisdiction cases. Tom Corbett, Space Cadet, has chosen not to.



Better late than never, which is exactly what will occur if those who are into 'power' remain in control. Let Buehner head the committee to create a task force. He cares about his friend.....oh, that's right.....according to MM, BB is letting friendship interfere.....
HELLO????
JMO [/*]

Likewise, to create anything formally, in the nature of a "task force," takes the cooperation of the offices involved. Fat chance, so far. Even if TC said, "I want a task force," the BPD, Centre and Union DA's, could choose not to be involved.

[Cloudbuster]

JJ forget the grand jury seems TC and Rendell have their own grand jury problems.
http://www.yardbird.com/reform_pa_DeWeese_Rendell_indictment.htm

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
JJ forget the grand jury seems TC and Rendell have their own grand jury problems.
http://www.yardbird.com/reform_pa_DeWeese_Rendell_indictment.htm [/*]

Except that TC is willing to use a grand jury there, that case really doesn't yet touch on Rendell. And, it doesn't touch on RFG at all.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks


HUH?? If I no longer had to pay a mortgage payment or a vehicle payment, the incoming monies that formerly would have been outgoing for mortgage and vehicle payment, would, of course, be 'income' which would now be free and clear to be spent on 'whatever'.
JMO [/*]

No, owning something like a private car or a dwelling does not generate income. If PEF starts taking in boarder, or turns the Mini into a taxi service after work would.

Even owning a second car would not generate income; she still has insurance and maintenance. Even selling the Mini would only generate cash assets, but not income.

PEF, in some level acquired assets from RFG, but she would have to sell them just to convert them into cash, even then that isn't income, just spending assets.

[tonyGricar]

There's apparently another press conf today, this time being held by MM, other DAs from the DA Association, and Corbett's people.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks



It's simple, JJ. The monies that are no longer needed for mortgage payments or vehicle payments can be invested to generate income.



LW, none of that can can come even close to making up an income lossed from working. Currently interest rates are 2-3%, so even with the sale of these assets, and that money invested, you are talking about less than $4,000.


If you don't think it is a lot of money, obviously you must live in affluence where only million$ matter.


No, I just realize that the amount is very small, and that I'd expect PEF to make more than $4,000 per year, and need more to than $4,000 to live on per year.

[J. J. in Phila]

Well MM says that Buehner is being "disingenuous," but he's sending the hard drive out to the Kroll firm. :)

http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/694568.html

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
There's apparently another press conf today, this time being held by MM, other DAs from the DA Association, and Corbett's people. So in other words, Corbett/Corbett worshipers are going to stomp on Buehner...when they should be spending that energy on the investigation. Whatever!! MOO

[Politigal]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
There's apparently another press conf today, this time being held by MM, other DAs from the DA Association, and Corbett's people. [/*]

at least the pot has been stirred...

[Hbgchick]

Somebody PM me next time something like this happens, kay? Lol. I don't look to the seedy T website too often but glad I did today to see a big picture of RG. Glad also someone is stirring the pot and actually standing up and saying that the investigation was handled very poorly.

[puzzled]

Amen!

[tonyGricar]

brief synopsis:

- buehner showed up and sat front and center. MM sat at the back of the room and did not sit at the table with the 8 DAs (7 repubs 1 dem, who, if i were a betting man, would guess is the head of the DA's Association). guessing that was ultimately a smart move.

- criticized buehner/mcknight for calling out a fellow DA for an investigation they're not familiar with.

- praised investigators and madeira for their handling of the case (notice any irony with the previous point?)

- former "Detective" Z was working security at the door.

- Former ADA(s) of Ray spoke up from the crowd. then questioned if they were actually members of the media. said no, they proudly served as his ADAs.

- panel said that they showed up on their own, not at the behest of MM or TC. (on july 3rd? okeedokee... )

- one DA (the head of the DAA, i believe) spoke of his friendship with Ray even though he didn't know how to pronounce his last name.


Regardless of your opinions, I really feel bad for Chief Weaver and Det. Rickard.

[Hbgchick]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
brief synopsis:

- buehner showed up and sat front and center. MM sat at the back of the room and did not sit at the table with the 8 DAs (7 repubs 1 dem, who, if i were a betting man, would guess is the head of the DA's Association). guessing that was ultimately a smart move.

- criticized buehner/mcknight for calling out a fellow DA for an investigation they're not familiar with.

- praised investigators and madeira for their handling of the case (notice any irony with the previous point?)

- former "Detective" Z was working security at the door.

- Former ADA(s) of Ray spoke up from the crowd. then questioned if they were actually members of the media. said no, they proudly served as his ADAs.

- panel said that they showed up on their own, not at the behest of MM or TC. (on july 3rd? okeedokee... )

- one DA (the head of the DAA, i believe) spoke of his friendship with Ray even though he didn't know how to pronounce his last name.


Regardless of your opinions, I really feel bad for Chief Weaver and Det. Rickard. [/*]

What was this a synopsis of Tony? I am just catching up and think I may have missed something.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by Hbgchick
What was this a synopsis of Tony? I am just catching up and think I may have missed something. DAs defend handling of Gricar case

http://www.centredaily.com/news/breaking_news/695754.html

If that does not work, go to the CDT. I am having trouble with their site again.

[Serendipitous1]

From the link above:

"But the panel assembled Thursday that praised the investigation soon came under fire from the audience of news reporters and local attornies when they conceded they do not know much about the investigation they were praising. They have never been asked by Madeira to review the case files or to meet to review the investigation in detail, said the members, who argued that they have trust in Madeira and law enforcement.

The panel appeared to do the same thing they were criticizing Buehner for. While the PDAA members praised the investigation, they said Buehner had no right to criticize it. “Does that make any sense?” said Buehner afterwards, who attended the news conference uninvited."

MOO - well no it does not, Mr. Buehner...except in the context of Corbett/Madeira worshipers.

Tony, I too feel bad for the dedicated law enforcement officers who have tried so hard to solve this mystery. I would point out that Buehner has often gone out of his way to say the same.

[Serendipitous1]

Selected comments from WKOK's "On the Mark" (7/2/08), part 1 of 3:

Montour County DA Bob Buehner -

The one thing I’ve never worried about in my 16½ years serving as the district attorney here in Montour County is what my career will be. People have always asked me what is my next career move. I ponder it and look at them seriously, and I say the Odd Fellows Cemetery on the hill above Danville is my next move.

I’ve always tried to be a man of principle and stand by my principles. One of my principles is, if you tell the truth good things will happen. And the other principle is, you can never go wrong doing the right thing. I felt it was necessary to come forward yesterday, do the right thing, and tell the citizens of Pennsylvania what is really going on, or not going on, in the disappearance investigation of my friend, my colleague, Ray Gricar.

So that was their response. Instead of saying, “Hey, yeah, as the chief law enforcement officer of Pennsylvania (the Attorney General), I want to find out what happened to one of my fellow prosecutors”, the response was the opposite...which was shocking.

If someone can make a sitting, elected district attorney disappear without a trace, and law enforcement does nothing or very little about one of their own, what chance would the average citizen’s family have of getting justice, if the same effort is applied to their loved one’s missing case as it is to Ray Gricar’s? That’s why all citizens of Pennsylvania should be concerned about this.

[Regarding conferencing with caller Kevin Harley, Attorney General Corbett’s press secretary, who was waiting on another line] I’d really rather not speak on the same line with him. He’s nothing...and your listeners really need to know...he’s nothing but a name-calling, high-priced flack for the attorney general. I’m sure he’ll call me names and tell me I don’t know the law.

[Serendipitous1]

Selected comments from WKOK's "On the Mark" (7/2/08), part 2 of 3:

Kevin Harley, Attorney General Corbett’s press secretary, with Bob Buehner put on hold -

I find it rather interesting that when you offered Mr. Buehner the opportunity to be on the line with me, he quickly cowered and did not want to engage in a debate, and went into a defensive mode. It is extremely sad and disappointing that someone like Mr. Buehner, who is a district attorney and really should know the law, but apparently doesn’t understand, or misunderstands, or apparently hasn’t read the law, that the attorney general cannot come in and take a case over from a district attorney in which the attorney general’s office does not have jurisdiction.

I’m sure that Mr. Buehner would not appreciate the attorney general going into his county, although he doesn’t prosecute very many cases, and telling him that, “We don’t think you’re doing a proper job. We’re taking over your case.” It’s just not the way the law is written. Let me just explain the law, because I know Mr. Buehner...[interrupted by the host].

I don’t want to get into the specifics of the case because it’s not our case and it would be unprofessional. I know that doesn’t seem to bother Mr. Buehner from commenting on specifics of the case, which he doesn’t really have any real knowledge of. However, at this point, there’s no body. There’s no evidence of a crime at this point. He can think there was a crime committed. We have to deal with facts and the law. If a body were found in another county, then the DA of that county, whatever that county would happen to be, would be able to bring charges if a suspect were under arrest.

You could talk to Tom Corbett, although I’m sure Mr. Buehner would certainly not want to engage in a debate with Tom Corbett. If he’s afraid to debate me, I’m sure he’s afraid to debate Tom Corbett. But he [Corbett] is unavailable at the moment. And then you can also offer...if Mr. Buehner is not afraid to debate me, I’d be happy to stay on the line, if he’s still...[interrupted by the host].

I’m saying it’s not the attorney general’s case. The case rests in the hands of the state police and the district attorney’s office of Centre County. Any time you get a case like this - a high-profile missing-person case - there’s always going to be people like Mr. Buehner who will take potshots at people just for the pure...the only reason that makes any sense is that he likes to see his name in the newspaper, get his face on television, and he has absolutely nothing to do with this case. If he ever decides to get some courage up and would like to debate me, I’d be happy to do so.

[Serendipitous1]

Selected comments from WKOK's "On the Mark" (7/2/08), part 3 of 3:

Montour County DA Bob Buehner, with Kevin Harley on hold or disconnected -

It’s pretty amazing how confused Mr. Harley is. By the way, Mr. Harley is not a lawyer. I don’t know what his profession or career is, but he’s not a lawyer. First of all, he says there’s no crime committed, and he’s categorically wrong on that. There’s a missing computer that was found, and that’s the crime of theft. The computer was destroyed, because the hard drive was removed and damaged...and that’s public property. That’s criminal mischief. [It was] a government-issued computer. You’ve got the crimes of theft to look at...who took the computer and who destroyed the computer. So there are crimes.

And I’ll tell you how poorly Mr. Harley understands the facts of this case, because he just told you and your listeners that this case belongs with the Centre County district attorney’s office and the state police. Well no...he’s wrong. The state police have only been remotely involved. It’s been with the Bellefonte Borough police department. So he got that wrong.

As far as debating the guy...what’s it going to prove? Why isn’t the chief law enforcement officer saying to Mr. Madeira, “Look, you use to work for me in my office. I politically endorsed you when you ran for office. Why don’t you let my folks come in, and refer it to me?”

This is all about protecting Tom Corbett’s political career, because he wants to run for governor in a couple of years. Of course, I don’t think he’s going to make attorney general in the attorney general election this year. But he wants to, and he wants to become governor. If he takes this case over, I think he views it in political terms...there’s no political upside, but he could be blamed if the case isn’t solved under his watch. And that’s what this is really about. It has nothing to do with solving things, because the attorney general has far more resources then the Centre County DA and the Bellefonte police department (not the state police). So right away, Mr. Harley has misled your listeners, and that’s pretty typical of Mr. Harley and the attorney general’s office in this case.

In May of 2005, after Ray Gricar went missing, I convened a meeting in Harrisburg at the district attorneys association office. It was even reported on WKOK. At that meeting we had veteran prosecutors from across the commonwealth come in. And they met with the then chief of the Bellefonte police department, the then investigating officer Darrel Zaccagni, and the first assistant district attorney, who was acting [DA] while Ray was gone. We all met and discussed this. The attorney general sent one of his top deputies, who advised us he was only there in a listening capacity. He really was not there to do anything but listen and really would not participate in the discussion. But he’d been invited, so he came...not contributing anything to the discussion. That’s the extent of their investigation or their participation [which] they said they offered early on - they sent a listener. So that’s disingenuous.

From the very beginning, Ted McKnight and I, two DAs who really had a great friendship with Ray Gricar, have been asking for answers and making suggestions. I made the suggestion about searching the area motels...doing a real organized search of these motels and hotels in the region...back in May of 2005, at that meeting, to those investigators. I know that was never done. I’ve been there from the beginning, just because I have great concern and respect for my colleague, Ray Gricar.

The other thing is the attorney general’s office has funding...for example, to test the hard drive that was found in the river and send it to this lab that was able to retrieve the data from the space shuttle that was thought unretrievable. The Gricar family and I have offered to pay for part of the cost of that. The Gricar family relayed that to me yesterday.

They [at the attorney general’s office] are playing semantics and hiding behind some legalism. The chief law enforcement officer of the commonwealth is not going to get involved when one of the fellow chief law enforcement officers of a county is missing? And he’s now missing 3 years, 2 months and 16 days. I think the voters of this commonwealth would be extremely disappointed to know that is the attitude of the attorney general of this commonwealth. It’s sad...it’s been sad...and all Mr. Harley can do is call me names.

Let me tell you what Mr. Harley also didn’t tell you, about the attorney general and how he acts. There was a drug roundup involving cases from Northumberland and Montour County. The attorney general came into Sunbury [and] held a big press conference. Mr. Rosini, my friend and colleague, was there. And there were drug cases from Montour County...arrests made of sales in Montour County. The attorney general intentionally precluded me from even knowing about the press conference. He intentionally kept us away from that. He comes into counties...swoops in, makes the announcement, makes the newspaper splash, calls all the media, has the photographs of the defendants. Well, I get stuck in certain instances with prosecuting those cases for which he, somehow, takes credit. This is the kind of guy we’re talking about.

I went public only with the full support of the Gricar family. These are people that have lost their loved one. They want to know what happened to their dad or their uncle. Ray Gricar’s first wife Barbara, who still lives in the State College area, [is] concerned. And it just comes down to this - what happened to Ray Gricar?

Why won’t people that are charged and have the public responsibility to seriously investigate this, when they get a letter from me...a private letter...not even call back or not even take steps to investigate. It just...it’s so disappointing. I’m not going to stop. I don’t ever worry about political consequences of things. I just want to do the right thing. I want to do it for the right reasons, which is my friendship with Ray Gricar. And I want to do it in the right way, which is I pass on information to the right people. And if they don’t want to act on it, then the public needs to know that.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by logicworks
Thanks, S1 for putting that into print. I am making a copy of it right now........ I listened to the interview a few times. BBuehner calls it like it is. I was so very impressed with everything he had to say. As for Harley, I thought he sounded like he was hyperventilating while attempting to come up with something that would sound even remotely credible, but alas, he 'can't even begin to hold a candle' to BB, as my dear ole grandma used to say.
JMO Yes, you could hear his heavy breathing...as well as the host(s) laughing at him in the background. Harley-har-har was afraid he might have to debate Buehner...not the other way around. We Pennsylvanians are paying this guy more than $100K a year...for what? If KH speaks for TC, someone needs a new press guy (I note that TC sent Sheetz to Bellefonte instead of KH)...and PA needs a new AG, like 3+ years ago.

Sidebar - Didn't it seem like MM made a point of saying (CDT, 7/3/08, "Firm will analyze hard drive"), golly gee, Centre County will now have to spend thousands of dollars because we'll now have to send the hard drive to Kroll? But Buehner says the AG’s office has money for that...and besides, he and the Gricar family offered to pay for part of the cost of doing that. What a disgraceful mess! Shame on TC and MM.

[Serendipitous1]

O/T - I heard Coldwater was annoyed by "signatures" exceeding 3 lines, so I have been toying with mine. I think I am in compliance now. And I did also want to thank the techs for patching up the security here. I hope the bandaid holds.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks



I do NOT consider what has been done for RG a work of love; not by our State government, not by the fill-in DA, not by our local DA. I consider it an insult of the worst kind. What has recent occurred just adds 'insult to injury'. There are 67 DA's in PA......where are their voices? Certainly gives a whole new meaning to the 'me culture' reality, as in 'If it didn't happen to me, it didn't happen'. For shame......
JMO [/*]

They are saying, "This is an unsolvable case in another jurisdiction. I don't want it on my record."

They are also reflective of their electorate, which is saying:

1. What ever happened to RFG was voluntary; drop it. (You only have to look at the holiday thread to see that.)

2. It might have been murder, but we've spent enough resources on this.

I don't agree with either point and will note that what he's suggested never was particularly expensive (nor has what I've suggested). That said, while I disagree with the attitude, the attitude does exist.

[Serendipitous1]

Attorney General Tom Corbett has spent and misused hundreds of thousands of tax dollars, and maybe even a million, for political style radio advertisements in Philadelphia and SE Pennsylvania. Mr. Corbett’s blatant and unaccounted use of public money to raise his name recognition in an election year is the same kind of misuse of public money for political purposes that Mr. Corbett is investigating in the so-called “Bonus-Gate Investigation.” In fact, Mr. Corbett is spending more tax dollars than was doled out in the alleged use of tax dollars to reward political work. The larger question here is "who polices the Attorney General." emphasis added.

http://www.campaignsitebuilder.com/news/disp_news.asp?ID=10441&siteid=178

ETA - where does Ray Gricar's family go to get justice?

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
They are saying, "This is an unsolvable case in another jurisdiction. I don't want it on my record." They are also reflective of their electorate, which is saying:
1. What ever happened to RFG was voluntary; drop it. (You only have to look at the holiday thread to see that.)
2. It might have been murder, but we've spent enough resources on this.

I don't agree with either point and will note that what he's suggested never was particularly expensive (nor has what I've suggested). That said, while I disagree with the attitude, the attitude does exist. It was not the holiday thread here, but rather a few clueless pinheads commenting on CDT articles. The silent majority knows that the next AG will not be crowned by the voters in the Philadelphia or Pittsburgh regions, but by the voters in between. And the vast majority of those voters should be absolutely pissed at TC for what he did not do for one of his own.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
It was not the holiday thread here, but rather a few clueless pinheads commenting on CDT articles. The silent majority knows that the next AG will not be crowned by the voters in the Philadelphia or Pittsburgh regions, but by the voters in between. And the vast majority of those voters should be absolutely pissed at TC for what he did not do for one of his own. [/*]

No, we had a resurgence of the "Ray is gay" argument on the holiday thread, you can check it yourself.

BTW, most of those "pinheads" are registered voters.

The Nixonian "silent majority" wasn't there when Nixon said it and isn't there now. Of the relatively few voters that care about AG's office, this issue is unknown. It's basically saying that TC should do more. Moragnelli said he'll address the Gricar case, but so far, even those issues he's addressed have not caught the electorate's imagination.

It will take a more direct linkage between the disappearance and the AG to really make this an issue.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
No, we had a resurgence of the "Ray is gay" argument on the holiday thread, you can check it yourself.

BTW, most of those "pinheads" are registered voters.

The Nixonian "silent majority" wasn't there when Nixon said it and isn't there now. Of the relatively few voters that care about AG's office, this issue is unknown. It's basically saying that TC should do more. Moragnelli said he'll address the Gricar case, but so far, even those issues he's addressed have not caught the electorate's imagination.

It will take a more direct linkage between the disappearance and the AG to really make this an issue. Stay tuned.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Stay tuned. [/*]

I will, but so far, I have not seen a lot(politically) in this episode.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
I will, but so far, I have not seen a lot(politically) in this episode. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ;)

[Serendipitous1]

Your posting about Nixon reminded me that there was a short and to the point letter in the CDT on 7/9...from a Kennedy...from Bellefonte...go figure!

[J. J. in Phila]

Don't get me wrong, I think Buehner is right. Being right and swinging votes are two different things.

[Serendipitous1]

Tony Gricar said the family isn’t as certain (as Buehner and McKnight) about the nature of his uncle’s disappearance. “We’re waiting for any kind of evidence that puts it closer to an idea. We don’t necessarily believe he’s alive, but it changes on any given day of the week.”

Tony Gricar still hopes a larger agency will take over the investigation from Bellefonte police, saying the past three years have been one confusing disappointment after another. “I just don’t know where this is going. I don’t even know where this has been.”

“The more people who are standing up and screaming, the better. They (Buehner and McKnight) have a local voice there that we just don’t have. Anything that we can do to get a bigger organization with the knowledge and the manpower to investigate this, we will do.”

Tony Gricar said he was disheartened that his uncle was almost forgotten in what he said seemed to be more of a political rally Thursday (7/3). He praised Buehner and former Clinton County DA Ted McKnight for fighting for the missing prosecutor. “Two district attorneys stick their necks out to stick up for Ray, and Madeira wrangled up eight DAs to counter their attempts. Two DAs stick their necks out and 8 to 10 guys rally around the DA who hasn’t disappeared. I don’t get it.”

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
It was not the holiday thread here, but rather a few clueless pinheads commenting on CDT articles. [/*]

It's on the bottom p. 2 of the holiday thread:

http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?threadid=335039&pagenumber=2

Now, I'm not convinced that RFG walked away, but I'm not convinced he was murdered either.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
It's on the bottom p. 2 of the holiday thread:
http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?threadid=335039&pagenumber=2

Now, I'm not convinced that RFG walked away, but I'm not convinced he was murdered either. Well said. I agree. And thanks. I had missed reading some of the weekend thread due to the forum disruption.

I was somewhat taken aback by TG's most recent stance. I wish he would come back here and discuss it.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1


I was somewhat taken aback by TG's most recent stance. I wish he would come back here and discuss it. [/*]

Mr. Buenher was somewhat criticized for his "tunnel vision" in saying this was murder; this was the Daily Item's editor's phrase, not mine. To an extent, the term is justified.

The is absolutely no evidence that I'm aware of that indicates this was a murder. It is certainly possible that it is murder, but no possibility, in my estimation is above 50% likely.

That is one reason, perhaps the prime reason, why I think LE should be looking at the possibility of RFG acquiring a vehicle in Lewisburg or getting a ride out of Lewisburg from a trusted helper. The answer might come back that:

1. There is no chance of RFG purchasing a car (even through a straw purchase) in Lewisburg.

2. All of RFG's close associates (and their vehicles) are accounted for on 4/14-4/16.

If those questions were answered in that way, I would certainly put the chances of murder well above 50%.

I did find it interesting that Mr. Buehner put much more stock in the accuracy of witnesses than we do.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1


Tony Gricar said he was disheartened that his uncle was almost forgotten in what he said seemed to be more of a political rally Thursday (7/3). He praised Buehner and former Clinton County DA Ted McKnight for fighting for the missing prosecutor. “Two district attorneys stick their necks out to stick up for Ray, and Madeira wrangled up eight DAs to counter their attempts. Two DAs stick their necks out and 8 to 10 guys rally around the DA who hasn’t disappeared. I don’t get it.” [/*]

Hi Everyone! I'm Back!!!! I missed you all so much, didn't realise what a link to the world this computer and forum is. I did catch up on some reading, 12-15 books!

I was so proud of Buehner and McKnight for their news conference and standing up to DA Madeira and AG Corbette.

I was so angry when I saw DA Madeira on tv the one time and the statement he had said. I went on to WTAJ-TV but the one that really made me mad was not saved on their list. I don't remember the words he had said but it sounded like an old cowboy movie, ( I'm the sheriff in this town and will run it the way I want.) He was cockey, arrigant and obnoxious!!

Something wrong in the hills and valleys of Centre County!

I am not too upset that 6 DA's from other counties showed up for DA Madeira. There are 67 total DA's in PA and there have to be a lot more who think differently than these 6. We just haven't heard from them. I thought DA Buehner handled being cut up one side and down the other very well and had the guts to face them while they did it. Wonder how big they felt ganging up on one man? Wonder how they could even say anything when they themselves didn't give a dang what happened to RG and what all the investigation entailed.

Gstickley, I think the one man we were questioning in that group was PSP and not BPD. Sorry.

I guess the ADAA meeting is already over if DA Buehner resigned from it last week. I just wonder what all was said about him and RG after he left? Did they discuss the case further, argue back and forth with disagreements?

I can't believe it is all over. I have this feeling of the shoe getting ready to fall. Maybe there are things going on behind the scene now.

By the way, if DA Madeira was going to send the hard drive to that new company, why didn't he have the hard drive already, why is it still in Los Angeles? Why did he have to get their opinion when they already said it could not be read? Why has he waited over 3 years to do so?

Kevin Hardy-har-har sure wanted to pick a fight didn't he? It would have been nice to have them on a new conference together so we could see him quiver and stutter around.
:lol:

[J. J. in Phila]

SJ, it is outstanding to see you back; I hope your computer problems are solved.

One reason that they might have kept the drive in CA is that it was in a "clean room" type environment. It might help preserve it.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
SJ, it is outstanding to see you back; I hope your computer problems are solved.

One reason that they might have kept the drive in CA is that it was in a "clean room" type environment. It might help preserve it. [/*]

Thank you JJ. Still some glitches on my email sites. Have to call Embarq about it.

I know after an item is taken from the water and the air hits it, the item deteriorates faster. Wonder how they will get it safely to the next testing company? I hope they don't send it back to Bellefonte. Don't want it to lose it's way home.

By the way, my grandson is again on the Mifflin County All Star team and is this week in Williamsport playing for States (I think). Can't believe it has been a year already.

[day2day]

MM should be ashamed of himself. And I still can't understand how Ray's "beloved" could look at his face every darn day.

JMO...as usual...

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by day2day
MM should be ashamed of himself. And I still can't understand how Ray's "beloved" could look at his face every darn day.

JMO...as usual... [/*]

She needs a J-O-*.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by sherrijean981 <Snip>
Hi Everyone! I'm Back!!!! I missed you all so much, didn't realise what a link to the world this computer and forum is. Welcome back sj.

I think Cloudbuster or someone relayed your message to the boards about MM's comment. But I could not find the quote online at that time either.

My impression is those PDAA executive committee "suits" who spoke, and Sheetz, are all Corbett worshipers; that they were there only to do damage control for TC, by backing an investigation they knew nothing (or very little) about, into the disappearance of a man they knew nothing (or very little) of.

The PDAA could (and should) have been a powerful and unified voice regarding one of their own who suddenly went missing, but instead has been utterly useless. The leadership (Corbett worshipers) will not entertain resolutions which are critical of Centre County or state officials in this matter. Way to stand up boys.

[J. J. in Phila]

Since all this has blown up, there was exactly one comment on the State College board, suggesting that RFG is with Hoffa and Elvis. I'm not overjoyed.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1

The PDAA could (and should) have been a powerful and unified voice regarding one of their own who suddenly went missing, but instead has been utterly useless. The leadership (Corbett worshipers) will not entertain resolutions which are critical of Centre County or state officials in this matter. Way to stand up boys. [/*]

Two people on the executive committee of the PDAA: Michael Madeira, D. Peter Johnson.:rolleyes:

http://www.pdaa.org/officers.html

[day2day]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


She needs a J-O-*. [/*]

We all need a job...!! With her talent she could work ANYWHERE!
I sure couldn't look at his face everyday -knowing he has done NOTHING to help..

:(


jmo..

[day2day]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


Thank you JJ. Still some glitches on my email sites. Have to call Embarq about it.

I know after an item is taken from the water and the air hits it, the item deteriorates faster. Wonder how they will get it safely to the next testing company? I hope they don't send it back to Bellefonte. Don't want it to lose it's way home.

By the way, my grandson is again on the Mifflin County All Star team and is this week in Williamsport playing for States (I think). Can't believe it has been a year already. [/*]


Welcome back SJ...and yanno..I bet we will watch your grandson in the pro's someday! I know you must be so very proud of him!
:seeya:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by day2day


We all need a job...!! With her talent she could work ANYWHERE!
I sure couldn't look at his face everyday -knowing he has done NOTHING to help..

:(


jmo.. [/*]

Meaning no disrespect to PEF, what talent?

Her degree relates to Law enforcement. She's been a parole officer, V/WA, and a clerk. This isn't exactly preparing her for the private sector.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Two people on the executive committee of the PDAA: Michael Madeira, D. Peter Johnson.:rolleyes:

http://www.pdaa.org/officers.html [/*]

I don't remember who all was at the conference in Bellefonte but some of the men on that list of photo's were there. What did DA Madeira do, just get the officer members there?

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by day2day



Welcome back SJ...and yanno..I bet we will watch your grandson in the pro's someday! I know you must be so very proud of him!
:seeya: [/*]

Thank you. The team won't be going any further. They lost their game tonight 9-10 and came home. Would have loved to be there for that one. They did a good job and can be proud of it.

About PF's job. I don't know how many years she has worked there but her pension and benefits should be pretty good. I know from when my daughter worked in a court house the state benefits were what kept people at the jobs.

I agree though. I would be losing a lot of weight from throwing up all the time just looking at him. Arrogant man!! I told Cloudbuster if I had been there I could have slapped him down for the look on his face and the words he said. I should have written them down at the time, now I don't remember how and what he said. I thought I would be able to get it off WTAJ's site but it isn't one of the ones saved.

Maybe we could get the reporter to find it and send us a copy of it or put it on their site.

[day2day]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Meaning no disrespect to PEF, what talent?

Her degree relates to Law enforcement. She's been a parole officer, V/WA, and a clerk. This isn't exactly preparing her for the private sector. [/*]

Maybe not the private sector JJ..but c'mon...she could do SOMETHING besides work for HIM. I would pick up pop cans first ..I swear I would!!

[day2day]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


Thank you. The team won't be going any further. They lost their game tonight 9-10 and came home. Would have loved to be there for that one. They did a good job and can be proud of it.

About PF's job. I don't know how many years she has worked there but her pension and benefits should be pretty good. I know from when my daughter worked in a court house the state benefits were what kept people at the jobs.

I agree though. I would be losing a lot of weight from throwing up all the time just looking at him. Arrogant man!! I told Cloudbuster if I had been there I could have slapped him down for the look on his face and the words he said. I should have written them down at the time, now I don't remember how and what he said. I thought I would be able to get it off WTAJ's site but it isn't one of the ones saved.

Maybe we could get the reporter to find it and send us a copy of it or put it on their site. [/*]

I'm so sorry they lost. But..it seems like you have a VERY talented player on your hands and I know how proud you are of him.

Pension would be the ONLY darn reason I could ever see workin for "him". I would also love to read his words..
I can't understand how he can sleep at night knowing that the person who held HIS job before him ...just vanished into thin air. Wouldn't be a comfy feeling ..for me anyways!!

It breaks my heart that we are all still here and really no closer to the truth. It just doesn't seem fair :(

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by day2day


Maybe not the private sector JJ..but c'mon...she could do SOMETHING besides work for HIM. I would pick up pop cans first ..I swear I would!! [/*]

Well, the public sector is kind of limited. Let's be blunt, if she wanted to look for job in something that she's experienced in doing, there is about a 90% chance she'd have to move. An attorney can leave that office and go into private practice; PEF doesn't have that option.

We've also been referring to Madeira as "one term Mike." He may not be there in 17 months.

You can swear all you want, but until faced with the real situation, a job with a guy who hasn't done that much to help your cause, but hasn't hurt you either, and unemployment.

Now, if there was a better job, in her field, that was offered, and she said no, I might agree.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


I don't remember who all was at the conference in Bellefonte but some of the men on that list of photo's were there. What did DA Madeira do, just get the officer members there? [/*]

He probably called in some favors.

My guess is that this had less to do with Corbett and more to do with Madeira and Peterson.

Foulk was there; he might be the incoming president. You'll note that there are three officers and six board members and at least 1/3 of the board was involved; I don't know if the IPP is on the board. You'll also notice 6 of the 9 are reasonably close to Bellefonte (less than a 2 hour drive).

A nice attempted piece of stagecraft, which blew up in their faces. :)

[day2day]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Well, the public sector is kind of limited. Let's be blunt, if she wanted to look for job in something that she's experienced in doing, there is about a 90% chance she'd have to move. An attorney can leave that office and go into private practice; PEF doesn't have that option.

We've also been referring to Madeira as "one term Mike." He may not be there in 17 months.

You can swear all you want, but until faced with the real situation, a job with a guy who hasn't done that much to help your cause, but hasn't hurt you either, and unemployment.

Now, if there was a better job, in her field, that was offered, and she said no, I might agree. [/*]


Of course we disagree here..we usually do. And of course I have NOT been in her shoes (thank God)! And he might be a one term Mike..then again in CC you never know!

I still would work at McDonalds...and I wouldnt care if it was a "better" job..hell i would have just lost my beloved..who gives a rip about money...

thats just me...and my opinion!

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by day2day


Maybe not the private sector JJ..but c'mon...she could do SOMETHING besides work for HIM. I would pick up pop cans first ..I swear I would!! [/*]

NO, that won't make her much money. But what she has learned would get her a 40 hour a week job through a temp agency, or in some attorney's office, detective and Sheriff Depts, Women's Resource Centre, an insurance company. She probably has more skills than a course in secretarial.

Your comment brought back some old memories, fun times. My husband had lost his drivers license one year and had a fine to pay. We didn't have the extra money to pay it, so I started collecting soda cans. Took a year with cans, glass bottles and anything aluminum I found in the ditches.

We did it after work, parked the car on one side and up and down the road we went. I think back on that and I have to laugh, especially getting nasty bugs out of the cans.

We even went on one of the back roads where they had a large trash can and my hubby checked it out. He came jumping out of it and ran back to the car. Someone was there ahead of him, a raccoon! That was so funny! We had a lot of laughs doing that, and I don't regret the experience. I think of that time when I see all the junk lying on the roads now. Probably should try it again since things are getting tougher. :D

Took a year to make $1200 and during that time the price of glass dropped and aluminum came down a little.

[day2day]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


NO, that won't make her much money. But what she has learned would get her a 40 hour a week job through a temp agency, or in some attorney's office, detective and Sheriff Depts, Women's Resource Centre, an insurance company. She probably has more skills than a course in secretarial.

Your comment brought back some old memories, fun times. My husband had lost his drivers license one year and had a fine to pay. We didn't have the extra money to pay it, so I started collecting soda cans. Took a year with cans, glass bottles and anything aluminum I found in the ditches.

We did it after work, parked the car on one side and up and down the road we went. I think back on that and I have to laugh, especially getting nasty bugs out of the cans.

We even went on one of the back roads where they had a large trash can and my hubby checked it out. He came jumping out of it and ran back to the car. Someone was there ahead of him, a raccoon! That was so funny! We had a lot of laughs doing that, and I don't regret the experience. I think of that time when I see all the junk lying on the roads now. Probably should try it again since things are getting tougher. :D

Took a year to make $1200 and during that time the price of glass dropped and aluminum came down a little. [/*]


.

Thanks so much for sharing your story...i would have LOVED to have seen the raccoon chase! Your story just goes to show that people can do what it takes to make it...!! I can't imagine how much money you would have if you did that now...!! I have had my share of tough times..and I am amazed at some of the things I have done to keep going.....(like working more than two jobs...decorating cakes..painting) . I am blessed now in this economy to have a great job that allows me to take good care of my littleone without having to ask anyone for help. Of course that could all change next week...lol

And you are absolutely right SJ...PF has plenty of work experience and her family is WELL known in the county. I am sure that she could have her pick of jobs. She doesn't have to stay there..she really doesn't!! I for one couldn't stand to be in the same room with that man for five minutes...I really couldn't!

[J. J. in Phila]

I could. It's a job.

I have not seen anything that would lead me to believe that PEF ever lived anyplace else other than Centre County, most of it in the same house. The bulk of her family is in the area and I'd guess her friends are there.

This is basically saying, **I don't like the boss, so I'll quit.** Most people learn to live with it.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by day2day



.

Thanks so much for sharing your story...i would have LOVED to have seen the raccoon chase! Your story just goes to show that people can do what it takes to make it...!! I can't imagine how much money you would have if you did that now...!! I have had my share of tough times..and I am amazed at some of the things I have done to keep going.....(like working more than two jobs...decorating cakes..painting) . I am blessed now in this economy to have a great job that allows me to take good care of my littleone without having to ask anyone for help. Of course that could all change next week...lol

And you are absolutely right SJ...PF has plenty of work experience and her family is WELL known in the county. I am sure that she could have her pick of jobs. She doesn't have to stay there..she really doesn't!! I for one couldn't stand to be in the same room with that man for five minutes...I really couldn't! [/*]

Just a thought! Maybe she is there so she can keep an eye on "someone"? Maybe she has uneasy feelings on someone or about something?

You ever hear the saying "keep your friends close and your enemies closer"? You know after awhile the someone who disappeared him is going to get too cocky and come out and say something to someone.

I just have this feeling it won't be long now.:shrug:

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
I could. It's a job.

I have not seen anything that would lead me to believe that PEF ever lived anyplace else other than Centre County, most of it in the same house. The bulk of her family is in the area and I'd guess her friends are there.

This is basically saying, **I don't like the boss, so I'll quit.** Most people learn to live with it. [/*]

You are right about it being a job. After being out of work for so long, I tell everyone to stick to where they are, whether they have issues or not. If good benefits and health care, you can deal with the co-workers. Suck it up and don't make waves.

She left the V/WA job for some reason so she might need this job for other reasons. Less stress and tension. Not dealing with the perps. Not seeing that end of the abuse. Just a safer job.
JMO.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


I don't remember who all was at the conference in Bellefonte but some of the men on that list of photo's were there. What did DA Madeira do, just get the officer members there? [/*]

Just as a follow up:

PDAA Membership at the Press Conference (out of 9, including Medeira).

Martin, Lehigh County (Immediate Past President)

Dobias, Carbon County, (President)

Foulk, Erie County (Vice President)

Green, Delaware County (Exceutive Committee Member)

Johnson, Union County (Executive Committee Member)

Madeira, Centre County (Executive Committee Member)


http://www.lockhaven.com/page/content.detail/id/504269.html

I don't know who the other three were.

Counting the IPP, the Executive Committee and officers come to a grand total of 10. More than half of them were in the room.

The story also notes that RFG had resigned from the PDAA several years prior to his disappearance.

[Serendipitous1]

Just adding to your followup. There were ten people seated at the table at the July 3rd press conference in Bellefonte. They were identified in a CDT article and blog (supplemented with information from the PDAA and PSP websites) as follows:

The 7 PDAA member DAs -

Gary F. Dobias, Carbon County - President
Bradley H. Foulk, Erie County - Vice President
James ʙ. Martin, Lehigh County - Immediate Past President
Francis J. Schultz, Crawford County - Executive Committee member
G. Michael Green, Delaware County - Executive Committee member
David J. Freed, Cumberland County - Executive Committee member
D. Peter Johnson, Union County - Executive Committee member

The other 3 present were -

Richard A. Sheetz, Jr., Executive Deputy Attorney General (Director, Criminal Law Division)
Shawn Weaver, Bellefonte Borough Police Chief
Unidentified, Commander of PSP Troop G (which includes Centre County).

Madeira, who was in the room, is also a PDAA Executive Committee member. Apparently not present were Edward M. Marsico, Jr., Dauphin County - Secretary/Treasurer; and Shawn C. Wagner, Adams County - Executive Committee member

[puzzled]

S1 and the rest of the gang...please read the posts by Firefly.:D

[puzzled]

OOPS...they are under the unexplained phenomena thread.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1

Madeira, who was in the room, is also a PDAA Executive Committee member. Apparently not present were Edward M. Marsico, Jr., Dauphin County - Secretary/Treasurer; and Shawn C. Wagner, Adams County - Executive Committee member [/*]

Thank you,. As you can see, more than 2/3 of the board was present. Note that two relatively "local" DA's from Dauphin and Adams, were not present.

This was an attempt to provide cover for MM and, to a lesser extent, Johnson. They called in Bellefonte, not in Lewisburg and Harrisburg to get good press for MM. It was a disaster, in the reporting of the story, the CDT's editorial comments, the blogging, and the posting on message boards. A bad mistake for MM.

I just wonder if Madeira can do anything to save himself.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
Thank you,. As you can see, more than 2/3 of the board was present. Note that two relatively "local" DA's from Dauphin and Adams, were not present.

This was an attempt to provide cover for MM and, to a lesser extent, Johnson. They called in Bellefonte, not in Lewisburg and Harrisburg to get good press for MM. It was a disaster, in the reporting of the story, the CDT's editorial comments, the blogging, and the posting on message boards. A bad mistake for MM.

I just wonder if Madeira can do anything to save himself. I agree it was particularly a disaster for MM, but I will stick to my earlier assessment (AG watch thread) that the PC was orchestrated by TC. I am not surprised so many DAs were available on July 3. If they had waited past then, I think the turnout would have been much lighter. It is clear that the numbers...10 at that PC, versus 2 at the earlier PC...and the location...Bellefonte in support of "the investigation", versus Lewisburg, the scene of the evidence...were as important as what they had to say.

The "theme" was to rebuke Buehner for going public and for ripping TC, MM and Johnson. Curiously, I did not see any published comments from the panel regarding McKnight, nor that he was at the PC (but I digress). Although all of the panelists may have said something, I could only find published comments from six of them. But perhaps repetitive comments were excluded from the news articles.

Johnson sat at the table but apparently did not speak. I suppose he wanted to bask in the glow of the "Buehner Roast" but, as did Madeira, went home disappointed (to put it mildly). And I did not see any comments from DAs Schultz and Freed, or the PSP trooper.

I think the accusations and press conferences are not over. I just hope all of the dust that gets kicked up eventually benefits RG's case, rather than burying it for good.

[sherrijean981]

I was reading pages from 2005 in Centre County and came across DA Madeira's website when he was running for office. I was thinking as reading it, he might want to go back to this page and read what he wrote. Sure hasn't gone out of his way for Centre County on his climb to the top nor has he proved he is looking out for their safety.

He also didn't mention DA Ray Gricar anywhere or mention he would use his resources to find out what happened to him. Guess he didn't lie there.

http://www.centregop.org/madeira_da/michael.htm

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981
I was reading pages from 2005 in Centre County and came across DA Madeira's website when he was running for office. I was thinking as reading it, he might want to go back to this page and read what he wrote. Sure hasn't gone out of his way for Centre County on his climb to the top nor has he proved he is looking out for their safety.

He also didn't mention DA Ray Gricar anywhere or mention he would use his resources to find out what happened to him. Guess he didn't lie there.

http://www.centregop.org/madeira_da/michael.htm [/*]

Perhaps he did:

To lessen the trauma on
victims and their families, Michael will work directly with police and
other agencies to ensure thorough, quality investigations that lead to successful prosecutions.


I guess that doesn't include Bob Buehner.

[J. J. in Phila]

MM may have suppressed exculpatory evidence in a murder trial.

http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/746581.html

July 2008 was a very long month for MM. August could be even longer.

[Politigal]

When the press conference occurred, I somehow missed reading this opinion...

http://www.dailyitem.com/0111_letters/local_story_188233009.html

and IMO - the first statement says it all:

That there is little to support the contention that Ray Gricar was a victim of a crime is a poor excuse for not approaching the matter as though a crime had occurred.

That's been the resonating factor since Gricar disappeared......it wasn't investigated as a crime.

JMHO

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal
When the press conference occurred, I somehow missed reading this opinion...

http://www.dailyitem.com/0111_letters/local_story_188233009.html

and IMO - the first statement says it all:

That there is little to support the contention that Ray Gricar was a victim of a crime is a poor excuse for not approaching the matter as though a crime had occurred.

That's been the resonating factor since Gricar disappeared......it wasn't investigated as a crime.

JMHO [/*]

Well, they generally don't attempt fingerprints (or scent dogs) for a suicide.

I would question any assumption that it was a crime, but that possibility is still there.

[Serendipitous1]

It is a game of political dominoes, Politigal. DZ was quoted more than once as leaning toward foul play...that is, until MM and SW shut him up. Because if there had been an "official" leaning toward foul play, MM would have been forced to request the state AG's office take over...in order to avoid even the appearance of a conflict of interest in the DA's office. And TC would have been obliged to take it...something he deliberately wanted to avoid.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
It is a game of political dominoes, Politigal. DZ was quoted more than once as leaning toward foul play...that is, until MM and SW shut him up. Because if there had been an "official" leaning toward foul play, MM would have been forced to request the state AG's office take over...in order to avoid even the appearance of a conflict of interest in the DA's office. And TC would have been obliged to take it...something he deliberately wanted to avoid. [/*]

The $64,000 question is.....why *did* Madeira shut him up?

[gstickley]

Originally posted by Politigal


The $64,000 question is.....why *did* Madeira shut him up? [/*]

And, who shut up M. Smith for the 8 months he supposedly was in charge???

[Serendipitous1]

Who remains from the original "investigation"? The officer in charge? The chief of police? The district attorney? The state attorney general?

[gstickley]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Who remains from the original "investigation"? The officer in charge? The chief of police? The district attorney? The state attorney general? [/*]

BINGO!!!

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Who remains from the original "investigation"? The officer in charge? The chief of police? The district attorney? The state attorney general? [/*]

Except that the AG wasn't really part of the original investigation.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
Except that the AG wasn't really part of the original investigation. No he was not...at any stage of the investigation (even to this day)...wherein lies the main problem.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
No he was not...at any stage of the investigation (even to this day)...wherein lies the main problem. [/*]

Well then, he wasn't part of the original investigation, which is what you just claimed.

[Serendipitous1]

5/12/05 - I wholeheartedly endorse MM, a fine fellow, as the next DA of Centre County.

But Mr. C....what about Ray Gricar? You know...the current DA who mysteriously disappeared?

Well I certainly hope we find him...alive...but it's not looking good there, son. The first thing I asked was where his keys were. Since they haven't been found, I think he planned to return to his car.
-------------
But he didn't return....sir. So, what does that mean? Was there foul play involved?

7/2/08 - Hey....as you know, I immediately offered the services of this office and our airplane to aid in the search. Our continuing offer of assistance is well known to Madeira and Johnson.
---------------
But Mr. C.....

Now, go away you little pissant. I can't be bothered with this. Go ask Harley-har-har, McNutt or deSheetz.

[J. J. in Phila]

I hate to put it this way, but .....

And?

MM can call a grand jury; MM can request help or could even suggest that the AG form one. So could Johnson. In theory, either could suggest a task force. They have not.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
I hate to put it this way, but ..... And? MM can call a grand jury; MM can request help or could even suggest that the AG form one. So could Johnson. In theory, either could suggest a task force. They have not. You may wonder...I do not.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
You may wonder...I do not. [/*]

No, I'm looking for evidence, and motive, and I see none to date.

[gstickley]

MSmith, from my point of view, did absolutely nothing pertaining to RG's disappearance for the 8 months he was supposedly 'the Acting DA'. (Of course, he did find the 'famous book'.) As the 'Acting DA', would he not have had the 'power' to lead the investigation, to ask for assistance, to do more than he did??? Those 8 months were the most critical, yet . . . nothing. As much as I enjoy 'dumping' on MM, the fact remains that MSmith was the 'man in charge' for 8 long months.

LW, I am as appalled as you as to the way the "Shaken Baby Case" turned out. While RG was in charge, there was a case; as soon as RG was gone, there was no case. Makes absolutely no sense to me.

I've always felt that someone was pulling strings; never knew who it might be. I never even thought the person might be the "top guy''; however, since S1's posts are making sense to me, I sure wonder about the "top guy" these days. I just haven't figured out the reason(s) why . . .

JMO

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks



The moves began immedately after the disappearance, with the case falling into MS's hands, the new doctors showing up within days. The actors and moves were a complete repeat of the Glick case, based on a disease an Amish infant had, having zero, zilch, diddily squat to do with the AVM case.



Actually, no. Manchester withdrew in December 2004, Morton, and I believe Dr. Rourke-Adams (who wasn't involved in the Glick case) came in prior to RFG's disappearance. He contacted Hehmeyer (who worked on the Glick), who brough in a "death certified" law partner, DeCaro (also not involved in the Glick case). They were getting that together at the time RFG disappeared.


Rather than building on the case RG had already built, MS then juggled the case on over into LMarshall's hands where it could cool off.


Marshall was the second chair, according to PB, so it wasn't MS juggling.


Evidence even the judge had forgotten he had already determined was adequate to hold the man in prison for two years was simply tossed in the nearest waste can.


I hate to explain this to you, but people can in jail pending a trial. In this case, it was Manchester who kept filing delays. Even when it was ruled not to be a death penalty case, Vargas remained in jail.


What I would like to know is precisely when word of the new 'solution' arrived.


Early 2005 is the date listed here. Here is yet another link to the article. http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/1130486/the_law_said_baby_lucas_died_of_abuse/index.html

The paperwork on the change was approved in late April, IIRC, which means that it took them a while to get it together. I recall somethace that it was in January 2005, though I'm sure.


None of the new arrivals names were mentioned in the case prior to disappearance, but that doesn't prove they hadn't already been called in. I want to know if RG knew they were going to repeat the Glick case before he disappeared.


If he looked at the medical records, possibly. Geisinger Medical Center took blood and sent it out to test for an enzyme present in Vitamin K; it came back positive, but it didn't come back until after Baby Lucas died. It was in the medical records.


The hustle to 'get 'er done' so soon after RG's disappearance has always been a red flag, IMO. How did MS know RG wasn't going to return and make him rue the day he tossed the case of a helpless innocent, few months old baby, in the can like it meant nothing, and after two years of RG's adamant sticking to what he believed he could prove?


Well, because it wasn't. The got a trial date, on the 3rd degree murder charge. January 2006, after RFG would have left office had he been there.

Looking at the prosecution case, where their own experts could not agree on if Baby Lucas had head trauma, and where he got worse while hospitalized, the hospital's own blood test confirming a Vitamin K deficiency, it wasn't a strong case for the prosecution to start with. Now, it wasn't RFG's fault that it wasn't strong, but he to play the hand dealt.

That Philadelphia Inquirer is an eye-opener about the case. And the further along it went, the worse it got for the prosecution.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by gstickley
MSmith, from my point of view, did absolutely nothing pertaining to RG's disappearance for the 8 months he was supposedly 'the Acting DA'. (Of course, he did find the 'famous book'.) As the 'Acting DA', would he not have had the 'power' to lead the investigation, to ask for assistance, to do more than he did??? Those 8 months were the most critical, yet . . . nothing. As much as I enjoy 'dumping' on MM, the fact remains that MSmith was the 'man in charge' for 8 long months.



As far as I can understand, MS could have called a grand jury, I can understand, somewhat, at least why he didn't:

1. LE was still "actively" investigating the case, giving polygraphs into the late summer of 2005. They were also following up witness reports (some, like Oprah, Ohio, and TX, leading no place).

2. Evidence was still being recovered. The drive wasn't finished being analyzed until December, when SM would not be in charge in a few weeks.

3. MS could be sure that, in January 2006, he wouldn't be in charge. He very possibly didn't want to set up something on whomever was going to be the new guy. Neither MM nor JKA, during the campaign (or frankly even today), ever said, **I think if we don't get to the bottom of the Gricar case soon, I'd like to see a grand jury.** Dixon and DZ were not asking for one.

I can understand why MS didn't form one, though, with 20/20 hindsight, it wasn't a good call.

As to "what else" can the DA or acting DA do, that is beyond me.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Except that the AG wasn't really part of the original investigation. [/*]

And the present DA was not part of the original. Mark Smith was the "stand in" DA.

And yes, why didn't he follow protocol or go any further in the investigation. Interviewing friends, co-workers, associates, neighbors, other Courthouse employees?

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by logicworks


IIRC, I thought I read somewhere Muir was one of the defense attorneys through March, 2005, and she withdrew after it was announced the two out-of-town attorneys were taking over.

IMO, RG had a strong case, and IMO, he knew he had a strong case, and was very possibly in the process of insuring it. Whatever happened changed all that. Strong is definitely not a word I would use to describe the watered down to nothing version that occurred, no one there representing the child, just like no one there to represent RG. What a surprise.......
JMO [/*]

Wonder if the LMW had anything to do with the case? Orders from the top guys (ER and TC) in Harrisburg? Get rid of RG, get the case put at a lower conviction with time served and get the guy out of the US and back to his country. Keep Costa Rica happy with the US.

Just a thought.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks


IIRC, I thought I read somewhere Muir was one of the defense attorneys through March, 2005, and she withdrew after it was announced the two out-of-town attorneys were taking over.



They were court appointed after Manchester withdrew. Dr. Morton contacted Hehmeyer. I think it was prior to March 2005. It did take some time to file the papers, and Hemeyer and DeCaro had to get theirs firm's approval because it was pro bono.


IMO, RG had a strong case, and IMO, he knew he had a strong case, and was very possibly in the process of insuring it. Whatever happened changed all that.

Wrong again. It took the DA's Office about a year just to file charges, because of the evidence. This was before Manchester, obviously, and before Hehmeyer and Dr. Morton.

Dr. Rorke-Adams was even better than I thought. She's appeared as an expert witness on both sides of the Atlantic, testifying for the prosecution in the UK, on you guessed it, child abuse:

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/judgmentsfiles/j3249/r_v_harris.htm

And, just add to the irony, she is a presenter this October at the National Center on Shaken Baby Syndrome:

http://iamwebs.com/test/ncsbs/conferences.php?year=2008&categ=wsp&topNavID=5

From the title, it deals with autopsy evidence.

She was also a presenter at the 2006 conference. That one was titled:

"An Overview of how the Pathologist Should Approach a Forensic Autopsy on
Head Injury Cases; Examination Techniques for the CNS; Cellular Response
to Trauma; Trauma vs. Natural Disease; DAI from Trauma and Other
Neuropathology Issues"


http://209.85.175.104/search?q=cache:35FAmHJRT4cJ:www.dontshake.com/pdf/Conf%2520Program-PDF.pdf+%22Rorke-adams,+Lucy%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=18&gl=us


She's also published in the American Journal of Forensic Medicine & Pathology, where she co-authored, "Guidelines for Postmortem Protocol for Ocular Investigation of Sudden Unexplained Infant Death and Suspected Physical Child Abuse."

http://www.amjforensicmedicine.com/pt/re/ajfmp/abstract.00000433-200712000-00010.htm;jsessionid=LZ7TZrLqMHnbs5VTPmPbX2yGtmyDp kh1NJGJ6tY2hryJCvb9yhfj!982088527!181195629!8091!-1


Oh yes, I forgot, she's an "out-of-towner." (That's sarcasm, borrowed from The Simpsons.)

I should add that Dr. Morton was awarded a MacArthur Fellowship in 2006 or 2007. One of their Genius awards.

I'd hate to see your idea of a weak case.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


Wonder if the LMW had anything to do with the case? Orders from the top guys (ER and TC) in Harrisburg? Get rid of RG, get the case put at a lower conviction with time served and get the guy out of the US and back to his country. Keep Costa Rica happy with the US.

Just a thought. [/*]

When Vargas's wife tried contacting the government there, they wouldn't even take her call.

Marshall was lucky to get a nolo contendere out of this. He said, “We didn’t want this case to be kind of the standard for vitamin K deficiency." He also called Morton and Rourke "heavyweights."

http://www.raynesmccarty.com/news/print.php?ID=67


The only thing I could see is that someone was worried about a lawsuit, if RFG would withdraw the case. And even there, everybody has insurance.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


And the present DA was not part of the original. Mark Smith was the "stand in" DA.

And yes, why didn't he follow protocol or go any further in the investigation. Interviewing friends, co-workers, associates, neighbors, other Courthouse employees? [/*]

The DA's office wasn't an investigating body; RFG didn't do that as such. They left that to the police.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


The DA's office wasn't an investigating body; RFG didn't do that as such. They left that to the police. [/*]

Look, everyone is saying why hasn't MM done anything to further this investigation, go to TC or even ER (why not him, he is the governor). It is all being put on MM BUT, MS had that same opportunity in the first 8 months after RG disappeared, which would have been more preferable then, in the beginning. As far as I am concerned, MS left RG down first. BIG time.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


Look, everyone is saying why hasn't MM done anything to further this investigation, go to TC or even ER (why not him, he is the governor). It is all being put on MM BUT, MS had that same opportunity in the first 8 months after RG disappeared, which would have been more preferable then, in the beginning. As far as I am concerned, MS left RG down first. BIG time. [/*]

The difference is time. MS was in a situation, until literally the last weeks of his tenure, where LE was still developing evidence. 20/20 hindsight, he was wrong, but while he was serving, he couldn't see that.

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


The difference is time. MS was in a situation, until literally the last weeks of his tenure, where LE was still developing evidence. 20/20 hindsight, he was wrong, but while he was serving, he couldn't see that. [/*]



I would think that MS knew how the case was progressing. He could have made sure before he left office that the case was going to have more eyes to look at the case. For being a DA under Ray, wouldn't you think that he would have really wanted Ray found?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella




I would think that MS knew how the case was progressing. He could have made sure before he left office that the case was going to have more eyes to look at the case. For being a DA under Ray, wouldn't you think that he would have really wanted Ray found? [/*]

It was "progressing," in terms of LE still analyzing evidence until mid-December 2005. Madeira then comes in and in 4-5 months calls for a CIA review; the PSP-CIA review finally ends it and says, everything was done. Then MM seems to forget about it. He comments briefly on 20/20 Vision in 2/08.

Then Buehner/McKnight steps up to the plate. What does MM do? Calls the PDAA board to attempt a defense, and blows it badly.

The gap in MM's actions is basically from the CIA review until the Buehner/McKnight press conference.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks



As long as evidence continued to appear, evidence which needed lengthy testing, the investigation could then be dragged out for the entire eight months, ensuring MS could not move the case higher before the 'elephant' was guaranteed to be reined in and 'under full control'. Once the leash was in hand, the case was declared 'cold', 'nothing else to do but wait for a stroke of luck'.


Let's be honest LW. Nobody could have known when the evidence would be found or if it would be found. RFG's car keys could still be at the bottom of the Susquehanna, even if they were tossed in on 4/15. Nobody could have known if it would have been turned over to LE.


It never quite seemed right that a perp, if there was one, would be so stupid as to return to the site to plant evidence.........
Also always seemed like whomever planted, felt comfortable that any new evidence found in Union County, wasn't going anywhere there.


Which would involve knowing the minds of MS, MM, JKA, Johnson and his opponent. No, you have have Mr. Super Psychic to be able to get that.


When the car was found, and the case turned over to BPD, it could have still been considered a missing person case. When the laptop was found, with it's hard drive missing, that's a whole other ballgame.


Actually the opposite. While a killer could have removed the drive, so could RFG. RFG may have wanted to hide something private, hide his Internet activities, his e-mails. A killer, unless he was sending e-mails to RFG on the main computer, or who know what data was in there, probably wouldn't do that. Likewise we have a "buddy" possibility and the possibility that RFG left the computer out, killed himself and someone else found it.



I see four possible reasons for planting after the fact.
1. LE was getting too close to someone.


From all accounts they were not.


2. There was a perp 'taunting' LE.


Much like 20/20 Vision, it doesn't show taunting. Actually, if K wanted to delay LE, he could have left it intact; LE would have spent months looking at RFG's surfing pattern.


3. There was a perp who wanted all evidence to remain in Union County to misdirect LE from looking in another county.
4. It was a 'strategic move' to drag the case out for eight months, until safely in the hands of the new DA, where it would go............nowhere.


You timing is way, way off. The laptop was found in late July, and the drive in late September. Centre County had an open seat and the hypothetical K had no idea who was going to win at that point. In Union County, Johnson ran for and lost the Republican Primary; he won the Democratic primary as a write-in candidate. In the fall, he was facing a constested election against a candidate that had defeated him about 6 months earlier. There was way that a killer could have known who would be the Union County DA. BTW, that includes, TC, ER, Dick Cheney, George W. Bush, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and Pope Benedict; no one could have known.

The conspiracy theory doesn't work.

[Serendipitous1]

I choose door number 4. And, BTW, the laptop (most definitely), and probably the hard drive too, were found in Northumberland County...since the entire river at that location is in that county, not Union.
http://terraserver-usa.com/image.aspx?t=2&s=14&x=106&y=1417&z=18&w=1&qs=%7cLewisburg%7cPA%7c

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by logicworks
Thanks for reminding me of that fact. The car was found in Union County, and further evidence in Northumberland County. I would guess that was likely to have been 'known' information, to further stir the pot jurisdiction-wise. Hard to believe your average 'perp' would know or even care about such information let alone know exactly how and when to use it.
JMO Probably just stupid lucky...or maybe not. That township, in Northumberland County, where the laptop was found...no police department. By default, the PSP provides for them. But the PSP did not investigate. And I have never heard anything from that county's DA. Why?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Probably just stupid lucky...or maybe not. That township, in Northumberland County, where the laptop was found...no police department. By default, the PSP provides for them. But the PSP did not investigate. And I have never heard anything from that county's DA. Why? [/*]

Ultimately, for just the laptop, because, at best, it's a misdemeanor.

1. If RFG is the one who tossed it, he's either well beyond the long arm of the law or dead. You can't prosecute.

2. If a killer did it, it's going to be minor.

3. If a "buddy" did it, he's operating under RFG's "orders," as it where, but with his consent, and that will bounce back on RFG.

4. If the laptop was left behind after a suicide or murder, and someone totally unrelated found it and tossed it, he has a vested interest in not coming forward, because LE is willing to charge him with destruction of government property.

Now, three questions in that regard.

1. What is the statute of limitations on misdemeanor charge related to the destruction of the laptop?

2. What is the statute of limitations for a civil suit relating to the destruction of the laptop, i.e., could the county currently sue the person who tossed the laptop?

3. What is the statute of limitations for a civil suit relating to the costs of the search for RFG?

[Serendipitous1]

Good thing there is no statute of limitation on murder...just in case another citizen or two dumps more evidence in the lap of this lucky-break, leads-us-nowhere investigation.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Good thing there is no statute of limitation on murder...just in case another citizen or two dumps more evidence in the lap of this lucky-break, leads-us-nowhere investigation. [/*]

That wasn't the question I was asking.

Someone might have found the laptop, put his own data in it, found out a few weeks later it belonged to RFG and decided to dump it. That person might be worried about covering his own butt, and decided to toss it. If there are no civil or criminal penalties at this point, he might come forward.

Conversely, if RFG walked away, he might not have any reason to surface, because of the chance of litigation over the costs.

[sherrijean981]

I used S1's link and went to the area of the warehouse and church CB and I were talking about previously. I copied that site so you could get an idea of the buildings. There is a road beside the church and on the other side of that road is what looked like a day care center?, the road goes back over railroad tracks and onto another road that goes back to Milton. The river is on the other side of that road.

There is a large brown warehouse, then the little house behind the chuch. With a business across the road from the church.

http://terraserver-usa.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=10&Z=18&X=1716&Y=22719&W=3&qs=%7cLewisburg%7cPA%7c

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by logicworks <Snips>
I didn't know there were three bridges, or is the third one the Hufnagle wooden bridge?

Question-------between the two bigger bridges, the railroad bridge and large bridge, are some islands. Do you happen to know......was the hard drive found on one of those islands, or was it found closer to shore? I read 'pressed in the mud' but didn't know if that meant on the island or in the river bed after the water level went down. Does the area in between river bank and island ever dry up completely? Do people normally go out on those islands if the water level is low enough to walk across or is it never low enough for people to get out to them? The upper bridge crosses the creek only, and is a concrete bridge. I believe it is called River Road to the east of the bridge.

The photo (dated 4/8/93) is probably indicative of how the water looked on 4/15/05...deeper then in Sep/Oct '05. But based on my visit to the site, news accounts and TG's photos, the hard drive was found in what (on this photo) might be near the middle of the channel between the park bank and island, and about half way between the bridges. Also, the laptop was apparently found under the traffic bridge...about where the car heading east is in the photo.

The channel was pretty shallow from May on, that year, especially the west half...closest to the park...which apparently became "dry" land by Sep. I believe there is always some flow in the east half, but the channel is easy to wade across...and several people (like me) did and do to get to the islands and the river beyond.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks



Thanks for the details, S1.
In the area where the laptop was said to have been found, if already drying out in May, laptop found in July, IIRC, it would seem as if someone could have simply walked there to plant with no need to toss it off the bridge. Am I correct in that assumption or is the water actually too deep there for someone to have done so?
JMO [/*]

The under the bridge area still was "wet" if the photos were any example, but not particularly deep.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by logicworks <Snip>
In the area where the laptop was said to have been found, if already drying out in May, laptop found in July, IIRC, it would seem as if someone could have simply walked there to plant with no need to toss it off the bridge. Am I correct in that assumption or is the water actually too deep there for someone to have done so? The hard drive area was shallowing out (new phrase) by the end of April. But unless one was afraid to get their shorts wet or lose a sneaker in the muck (sediment), there would have been no problem (other than hypothermia) in accessing the second pier...where the laptop was apparently found...in May, or later. And I believe Politigal and I also discussed the possibility of boating there as well.

I can buy Dixon saying the divers might have missed the laptop in April, although it has always seemed strange that it was found in the one place no one but divers could have then seen. But I do not buy anyone in LE saying the hard drive was missed, especially after the laptop was found. No way...no how.

[J. J. in Phila]

Without question, the laptop could have tossed from the bridge, so you'd need multiple cameras and I've never heard of LE doing that.

The question I have is the statute of limitation. If the laptop was tossed by a third party, that party might be willing to come forward and explain the circumstances (and possibly be polygraphed).

IIRC, LE didn't initially reveal that it was missing, and someone innocently could have found it and only realized the connection later.

Does anyone remember when the laptop information first became available?

[J. J. in Phila]

I checked myself and the first mention of the laptop seems to be at the news conference on 4/21.

[gstickley]

Timeline of the Ray Gricar case From CDT staff reports 11:30 a.m. April 15: Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar calls his girlfriend, Patty Fornicola, and says he is driving on state Route 192 in the Brush Valley area. 11:30 p.m. April 15: Fornicola calls Bellefonte police to report Gricar missing. Police immediately send out a bulletin to local police agencies and begin speaking to Gricar’s family and friends. 1:30 p.m. April 16: A police helicopter and state police patrols search the area between Centre Hall and Rebersburg for signs of Gricar or his red-and-white Mini Cooper. 6:30 p.m. April 16: Gricar's Mini Cooper is found in a dirt parking lot across from the Street of Shops, an antiques mall on the outskirts of Lewisburg near the Susquehanna River. The car shows no signs of forced entry or foul play. Gricar's county-issued cell phone is inside. His laptop computer, wallet and keys are not.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by gstickley
Timeline of the Ray Gricar case From CDT staff reports 11:30 a.m. April 15: Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar calls his girlfriend, Patty Fornicola, and says he is driving on state Route 192 in the Brush Valley area. 11:30 p.m. April 15: Fornicola calls Bellefonte police to report Gricar missing. Police immediately send out a bulletin to local police agencies and begin speaking to Gricar’s family and friends. 1:30 p.m. April 16: A police helicopter and state police patrols search the area between Centre Hall and Rebersburg for signs of Gricar or his red-and-white Mini Cooper. 6:30 p.m. April 16: Gricar's Mini Cooper is found in a dirt parking lot across from the Street of Shops, an antiques mall on the outskirts of Lewisburg near the Susquehanna River. The car shows no signs of forced entry or foul play. Gricar's county-issued cell phone is inside. His laptop computer, wallet and keys are not. [/*]

I'm interested in when it was publicly reported missing. They actually didn't know it was missing on 4/16; the discovery wasn't made until the evening of 4/17.

It seems that it was first mentioned on 4/21.

I'm thinking what if it was left behind and someone picked it up.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks


Left behind where? [/*]

LW, we won't know unless the person comes forward.

IF someone, not related to the disappearance, tossed the laptop/drive, he has an incentive not to come forward. He could be charged with a misdemeanor and be civilly liable for the cost of the laptop.

Now, at some point, he probably won't be, but I don't know at one point.

[gstickley]

If laptop was seldom/never used, sounds like it was taken from the house. Who had access there???

If RG did take the laptop, sounds like it was taken from the office or from the car. Who had access as the office??? Who had access to the car if he left it locked???

Can't imagine RG would have left it anyplace else.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by gstickley
If laptop was seldom/never used, sounds like it was taken from the house. Who had access there???

If RG did take the laptop, sounds like it was taken from the office or from the car. Who had access as the office??? Who had access to the car if he left it locked???

Can't imagine RG would have left it anyplace else. [/*]

GS, how do you know if the laptop was "seldom/never used?" Nobody saw RFG use it; that doesn't mean he didn't use it.

For the car, anyone who had the key; same with the house.

It's possible that RFG took the laptop with him, and left it out in Lewisburg. He may have been looking at family photos prior to suicide. He may have though he'd need it at a clandestine meeting; a kidnapper could have told him to put it down. In either case, it could have been left behind in Lewisburg, and a third party found it, maybe within an hour.

On 4/22-4/25, the guy realizes that he's holding a piece of evidence that might link him to a potential case; he might have put his resume on it or added his e-mail. He decides to toss it so he isn't linked to it.

Likewise, RFG could have had a "buddy," with a key to the house. He tells the "buddy," **If something happens to me, go to my house, get the laptop and destroy it.**

4/16-4/17/05, Buddy hears RFG is missing and does what RFG requests. He doesn't know what happened to RFG, so he holds the laptop for a month or so, then destroys it. He knows RFG was in Lewisburg, in the river area, and tosses it there. Maybe he checks to see if there is any clue on it first.

The tossing of the laptop might not be directly related to the disappearance; the tosser might have a reason to to come forward.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila




Likewise, RFG could have had a "buddy," with a key to the house. He tells the "buddy," **If something happens to me, go to my house, get the laptop and destroy it.**

4/16-4/17/05, Buddy hears RFG is missing and does what RFG requests. He doesn't know what happened to RFG, so he holds the laptop for a month or so, then destroys it. He knows RFG was in Lewisburg, in the river area, and tosses it there. Maybe he checks to see if there is any clue on it first.

[/*]

The "buddy" would have to be family, LE or best friend to get in RG's house at that point. That house was the hub center for the family, with LE in and out all the time. Family/friends would have been there a lot.

How was "buddy" going to get a laptop out of the closet and out the front/back door with all that activity?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


The "buddy" would have to be family, LE or best friend to get in RG's house at that point. That house was the hub center for the family, with LE in and out all the time. Family/friends would have been there a lot.

How was "buddy" going to get a laptop out of the closet and out the front/back door with all that activity? [/*]

4/16/05, BPD starts calling friends.

PEF was out of the house at the BPD office in the afternoon of 4/16/05.

It's in the media on 4/16/05.

4/17/05, PEF gets to Lewisburg about 11:00 AM; I would expect that she didn't get back until late afternoon.

Evening of 4/17/05, the laptop isn't where its suppose to be.

You have several multi hour gaps.

[gstickley]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


GS, how do you know if the laptop was "seldom/never used?" Nobody saw RFG use it; that doesn't mean he didn't use it.

For the car, anyone who had the key; same with the house.

It's possible that RFG took the laptop with him, and left it out in Lewisburg. He may have been looking at family photos prior to suicide. He may have though he'd need it at a clandestine meeting; a kidnapper could have told him to put it down. In either case, it could have been left behind in Lewisburg, and a third party found it, maybe within an hour.

On 4/22-4/25, the guy realizes that he's holding a piece of evidence that might link him to a potential case; he might have put his resume on it or added his e-mail. He decides to toss it so he isn't linked to it.

Likewise, RFG could have had a "buddy," with a key to the house. He tells the "buddy," **If something happens to me, go to my house, get the laptop and destroy it.**

4/16-4/17/05, Buddy hears RFG is missing and does what RFG requests. He doesn't know what happened to RFG, so he holds the laptop for a month or so, then destroys it. He knows RFG was in Lewisburg, in the river area, and tosses it there. Maybe he checks to see if there is any clue on it first.

The tossing of the laptop might not be directly related to the disappearance; the tosser might have a reason to to come forward. [/*]

Lots & lots of maybe's & what if's. Kinda like, "If a toad had wings, he wouldn't bump his butt to get around".

Thought the laptop was stored in a closet; several claims made that it was not used, was used only for conferences; most claims seem to have originated from the soulmate; never heard a claim that he used it regularly.

Haven't heard a word from "Buddy". In fact, haven't heard anything from supposed "best friends", S. Sloan & E. Weaver.
Think it pretty strange that RG would give a key to someone when the house wasn't his.

[gstickley]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


The "buddy" would have to be family, LE or best friend to get in RG's house at that point. That house was the hub center for the family, with LE in and out all the time. Family/friends would have been there a lot.

How was "buddy" going to get a laptop out of the closet and out the front/back door with all that activity? [/*]

And . . . had LE bothered to interview neighbors, someone may have seen someone around the house . . .

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by gstickley


Lots & lots of maybe's & what if's. Kinda like, "If a toad had wings, he wouldn't bump his butt to get around".


I'm interested in possibly eliminating possibilities. If someone tossed the laptop/drive, a third party not related to the disappearance, it would be important to know.



Thought the laptop was stored in a closet; several claims made that it was not used, was used only for conferences; most claims seem to have originated from the soulmate; never heard a claim that he used it regularly.


I've never heard of anyone watching RFG or the laptop 24/7 either. Could RFG have gone upstairs and used it while PEF was downstairs watching TV, cooking, or at the store or office? The answer is very clearly yes. We know that no one saw him using it.


Haven't heard a word from "Buddy".

Nor are you likely to, if that Buddy could be charged or be civilly liable for the laptop's destruction. That's why I'm asking about the statute of limitation. If there was a third party, he might come forward if he knows that he won't be punished for it. He might even be reading this post.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by gstickley


And . . . had LE bothered to interview neighbors, someone may have seen someone around the house . . . [/*]

And if you start verifying the whereabouts of the "inner circle," it might show up as well.