6/13 to .... 6/30 [Archive] - In Session Message Boards

KatyDid

06-13-2008, 08:47 PM

Originally posted by walton
From 2003

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2003-12-25/news/double-exposure

Fundamentalist Mormon prophet Warren Jeffs came close to getting arrested over the last year because the Utah Attorney General's Office believed he wanted disobedient teenager Vanessa Rohbock sacrificed to the Lord in a religious ritual called Blood Atonement.

and later on in the article:

The Utah Attorney General's Office, Barton says, was considering charging Jeffs with conspiracy to commit murder for issuing the blood-atonement order on Vanessa. But with Vanessa back in the FLDS fold, whether of her own volition or not, the case was shelved in favor of what the AG's Office hopes will be more prosecutable crimes by the prophet. [/*]

OMG, that last sentence. :rolleyes: What in heaven's name (literally) is the AG's office thinking? I suppose since she returned to Warren's fold, they figure she is safe??

They keep doing things like this, which in turn give the FLDS license to continue this kind of behavior. FLDS got away with it once...the only thing FLDS changes is to go deeper underground with it. They become more secretive and let fewer of the 'elders' know what they plan to do.

walton

06-13-2008, 09:11 PM

Originally posted by KatyDid

OMG, that last sentence. :rolleyes: What in heaven's name (literally) is the AG's office thinking? I suppose since she returned to Warren's fold, they figure she is safe??

They keep doing things like this, which in turn give the FLDS license to continue this kind of behavior. FLDS got away with it once...the only thing FLDS changes is to go deeper underground with it. They become more secretive and let fewer of the 'elders' know what they plan to do. [/*]

Not just once.

They don't need to go underground. These guys aren't doing anything but making excuses. The paper trail starts and ends with them and they all should be poop canned. imo

From the top on down.

KatyDid

06-13-2008, 09:20 PM

Originally posted by walton

Not just once.

They don't need to go underground. These guys aren't doing anything but making excuses. The paper trail starts and ends with them and they all should be poop canned. imo

From the top on down. [/*]

:D LOL! Well yes, that's not a bad idea walton.

walton

06-13-2008, 10:03 PM

http://www.kingmandailyminer.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&subsectionID=1&articleID=16073

Think Warren will make it to this court date?

I don't.

LLaFren

06-14-2008, 07:30 AM

After going back and reading everything I've missed, I've got a question.

Where the heck is the money coming from to move? None of them have verified income (that I can find), I know one of the requirements for the kids parents that I foster is that they have a JOB. It's like they have a magic wand to get what they want when they want it (JMO).

I could really use that magic wand sometimes:D

evalles

06-14-2008, 09:05 AM

Originally posted by LLaFren
After going back and reading everything I've missed, I've got a question.

Where the heck is the money coming from to move? None of them have verified income (that I can find), I know one of the requirements for the kids parents that I foster is that they have a JOB. It's like they have a magic wand to get what they want when they want it (JMO).

I could really use that magic wand sometimes:D [/*]

I can't believe my husband woke me up to go to the garage sale across the street. I wanted to sleep until the cable guy got here.

I know there are a couple of websites collecting $$ & one that has an adopt-an-flds family thing goin' on. There's money there at the YFZ ranch, I'd imagine. They might be giving the families money. Also, I saw a video of one of the mothers that has a job.

Now, what you mentioned about the job requirement.
I went through a year of family court with my teenager and I had 12 or 13 court dates in as many months. Then there was the individual and family counseling, parenting classes and time taken off for meetings. Then, in my case, there were the days I was too depressed to get out of bed.
This was all because of the commisioner's ruling that my relationship with my 16 year old was impaired and we needed therapeutic intervention.
I would imagine with a smaller child and harsher allegations there would be even greater requirements.

My point is, many would lose their jobs if they had one, due to taking so much time off.
I worried all the time, even though I'm pretty well established in my job.
If I hadn't been there long or wasn't as good at what I do, I would have lost my job, and then where would my other two children be ? Would they have taken them too, because I couldn't pay my mortgage and utilities ?
Would I have had to go on welfare and let the taxpayers support me ?
Family court cases can easily bankrupt a family.

Doesn't this set families up for failure ?

Another thing that bothers me, is that they'll take a child when a parent doesn't have enough money to pay for certain necessities.
For example, utilities being shut off or losing housing because they get behind on rent.
Why don't they do more to help the bio-parents fianancially if the child isn't actually abused.
Instead of paying for the child to be in out of home care, help the mom pay the light or water bill. Provide funding for housing,etc.
IMO, this would be best for the children. Lets face it, most kids would rather live in the car with mom than be separated from the only person that has ever cared for them.
No matter how good a foster home is, for most, nobody loves you like your mom.

By helping non-abusive,poor families they would open up more foster homes to the truly abused kids.
When my daugher started acting out at her aunts and was locked out on the porch, she went to foster care for 2 weeks.
When she wouldn't follow the rules in the first home, she was sent to another. I remember the worker told her she'd better clean up her act because if she was moved again, it might not be into such a good foster home.
She stressed that there were some foster homes that my daughter would not want to be in.
This really bothers me, there shouldn't be bad foster homes,and if there are, the CPS worker shouldn't knowingly place a child there.
After the appeals court ruling, I'm more ticked off about my case.
I was never even accused of any physical abuse and you could look at my daughter's wardrobe and tell she wasn't neglected.

Many of our arguments would start with her being grounded from her cell phone ( I might have used this too much, but it was the only thing that worked).
I think cell phones for teens are the roots of all evil.
Wasn't there a girl that tried to kill her mom for taking her cell phone ?
I know my daughter had a severe, emotional breakdown every time she was grounded from her cell phone.
As a matter of fact, my whole situation started when she lost her cell phone and was told she wasn't getting the care until her behavior improved.
She would throw worse tantrums than a two year old.
Ahh... the memories.

walton

06-14-2008, 09:41 AM

Roux

06-14-2008, 10:18 AM

Apparently they also had a furniture factory, as I read last week (don't remember where) that the factory was up and running to replace all of the furniture that was taken by those who had re-located.

walton

06-14-2008, 01:21 PM

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3534609

The cost of the April raid on a polygamist compound in West Texas is expected to top $14 million, about one-third of it in lawyers' fees, according to a published analysis of state records.

Check this out: http://thehopeorg.org/taxes.html

From June 2002 through June 2003 the Arizona Attorney General's office reports 8 million tax dollars in welfare services have gone to support polygamy.

During this year, 80% of Colorado City has received food stamps totaling 2.3 million dollars.

5 million dollars in free healthcare and an additional 660 thousand in tax dollars were funneled in to the community.

In total the residents of Colorado City, the entire community, only paid 72 thousand dollars combined in taxes.

Roux

06-14-2008, 05:12 PM

Originally posted by walton
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3534609

The cost of the April raid on a polygamist compound in West Texas is expected to top $14 million, about one-third of it in lawyers' fees, according to a published analysis of state records.

Check this out: http://thehopeorg.org/taxes.html

From June 2002 through June 2003 the Arizona Attorney General's office reports 8 million tax dollars in welfare services have gone to support polygamy.

During this year, 80% of Colorado City has received food stamps totaling 2.3 million dollars.

5 million dollars in free healthcare and an additional 660 thousand in tax dollars were funneled in to the community.

In total the residents of Colorado City, the entire community, only paid 72 thousand dollars combined in taxes. [/*]

Do you suppose the reason they never received welfare in TX was because they didn't want to reveal too much personal information to authorities? AZ seems to have just ignored the welfare fraud for decades, but TX might not have been so accommodating.

I don't understand why the public is not outraged by this unethical use of taxpayer funds. It is a slap in the face to every ordinary, hard-working family that pays their own way. Not to even mention or get into the issue of health insurance.

As to YFZ, with all their other scams bringing in $$ it appears money is simply diverted to Warren's chosen few. I hope the financial irregularities will eventually bring them down, if nothing else is able to.

Roux

06-14-2008, 05:20 PM

Originally posted by Imperfect

I asked that very same question yesterday.

The majority of the women didn't return to the ranch. None, to my knowledge, has an outside-the-home job. A lot of them don't even have ID.

Any place I've ever rented has required a hefty deposit and plenty of verifiable information about who I am and how I'm going to be able to pay my rent.

And yet all the FLDS women have secured housing from what I've read. Only way I've ever seen that kind of fast magic happen is when there are piles and piles of cash involved.

:shrug: [/*]

I read of one FLDS woman who relocated to San Antonio and was supposedly a registered nurse and said she got a job at a hospital. That was astounding to me -- how could she fit in unless she modified her manner of dress and coiff? Not to mention it seemed strange that she would have a current state license to be a nurse.

It used to be that real estate agencies, apt complexes, etc. would require a credit check. Don't know if FLDS had to do that; maybe they found some sympathetic landlords with vacant properties. Of course, they might have excellent credit ratings for all we know! But I rather agree with you that there was a great deal of cash involved.

LLaFren

06-14-2008, 07:12 PM

Originally posted by Roux

<snipped respectively>

As to YFZ, with all their other scams bringing in $$ it appears money is simply diverted to Warren's chosen few. I hope the financial irregularities will eventually bring them down, if nothing else is able to. [/*]

:D Where's Eliot Ness when you need him?:D

KatyDid

06-14-2008, 08:51 PM

Originally posted by Imperfect

Okay, a show of hands.

Who 'clicked to enlarge' the picture of Warren at the link?

Anyone?

Anyone?

barf [/*]

:no: not a chance LOL!

LLaFren

06-15-2008, 08:38 AM

Originally posted by Imperfect

Okay, a show of hands.

Who 'clicked to enlarge' the picture of Warren at the link?

Anyone?

Anyone?

barf [/*]

The small copy was enough for my stomachbarf

LLaFren

06-15-2008, 05:00 PM

Where'd everybody go?

:confused:

MsTuri

06-15-2008, 05:53 PM

Originally posted by Roux

Do you suppose the reason they never received welfare in TX was because they didn't want to reveal too much personal information to authorities? AZ seems to have just ignored the welfare fraud for decades, but TX might not have been so accommodating.

I don't understand why the public is not outraged by this unethical use of taxpayer funds. It is a slap in the face to every ordinary, hard-working family that pays their own way. Not to even mention or get into the issue of health insurance.

As to YFZ, with all their other scams bringing in $$ it appears money is simply diverted to Warren's chosen few. I hope the financial irregularities will eventually bring them down, if nothing else is able to. [/*]

Well, I am outraged!!!!

Everybody's saying that the people at YFZ weren't participating in welfare fraud, they had received NO funds from the state of Texas, but I think they were still getting it in another state. No way would Warren support all those people and pass up an opportunity to make some cash per head of "sheep", so to speak.
They could get it in Utah, for example, and wouldn't have to actually live in Utah. All their correspondence with their social worker would be done via mail for the most part, only once in awhile do you have to actually go into the Social Services Deaprtment. Checks go to whatever Utah address they give- the home of another FLDS person, I bet, and those checks all get forwarded to Warren.
It HAD to be this way. No man could support all those wives and kids with a regular job, I don't care what he did for a living. Food is expensive. It would be like feeding a medium summer camp population every day of the year! And most of those women look like they ain't missing any meals.

Anyway, yes I am one of those thats outraged. And I don't even live in any of the states being ripped off by them (as far as I know, at least!)

all jmo

eta: woops just thought of this- the social services in my state doesn't mail checks for welfare recipients anymore, they get a plastic card which they choose their own pin number for, and they use that at any ATM to get cash, and their food stamp balance is on the card too. So even easier, bet Warren has a paper somewhere of everybody's pin numbers!!

evalles

06-16-2008, 02:16 AM

http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/2008/06/that-one-girl-she-does-not-have-child.htm

That one girl? She does not have a child

walton

06-16-2008, 08:41 AM

http://drphil.com/shows/show/1079/

scroll down to where it says Fly over the compound on picture #4 it says that they have a molasses factory. Where are the sugar beets? Where is the sugar cane?

What were those ovens used for that Robert Richter was talking about?

Why hasn't anyone confinscated those big generators that were covered by green tarps?

Do they have EIN numbers for any of these so called factories?

Do they fill out the proper paperwork for taxes?

12 cows makes a dairy farm? Enough to feed them and sell to others? Was it monitered by the Health Department?

Furniture factory? Do they have lumber hauled in to the compound? Do they sell to an outlet someplace? Did they collect state sales tax from their customers?

Did they use "farm fuel" for all their pickups? or did they use farm fuel for just equipment on their farm? Did they fill out the proper forms?

The Ranch was NOT registered as a Church.

walton

06-16-2008, 08:47 AM

Originally posted by Imperfect

Okay, a show of hands.

Who 'clicked to enlarge' the picture of Warren at the link?

Anyone?

Anyone?

barf [/*]

:seeya: <<<<< hand raising

Yup, I did. It was/is an older picture of Warren. Just after he got sentenced.

Bring me a current one will ya? lol

juliekan

06-16-2008, 11:00 PM

Walton, remember when E.D. Hill on Fox jumped on Shurtleff? Well they just canned her show for a statement she made about Obama.

:(
'
'
'

KatyDid

06-16-2008, 11:52 PM

Originally posted by juliekan
Walton, remember when E.D. Hill on Fox jumped on Shurtleff? Well they just canned her show for a statement she made about Obama.

:(
'
'
' [/*]

:eek: OH NO!!!

I think she is the best!!

juliekan

06-16-2008, 11:59 PM

Originally posted by KatyDid

:eek: OH NO!!!

I think she is the best!! [/*]

You can find the story on the Media thread

walton

06-17-2008, 05:21 AM

Originally posted by juliekan
Walton, remember when E.D. Hill on Fox jumped on Shurtleff? Well they just canned her show for a statement she made about Obama.

:(
'
'
' [/*]

And BOR stays?

Must be some fat guy in an office that made that call. jmo The same guy that invented the shopping cart to go down an aisle that has less than 1/2 inch clearance.

The same guy that made that little donut spare tire that will take you all of 10 miles further than where you changed it.

The same guy that gives you to 10 on the volume control and speakers that go to 6.

Yup, that very same guy who keeps messin' up. jmo

I thought her coverage on the FLDS was good. I liked her spunk but even more than that I liked the fact that she did her research on the subject.

I can only hope that someone with her talent will move on to better things.

Though Nancy Grace is on a different network it is Nancy and E.D. Hill who I would want on my side. Maybe this will give E.D. Hill the oppurtunity and freedom to think outside the Fox "aisle".

KatyDid

06-17-2008, 09:28 AM

On Oprah today...Lisa Ling has a follow up report on the polygamy show. Oprah has a polygamist father on her show.

I think I heard the advertisement correctly.

:seeya:

gemsbmw

06-17-2008, 01:43 PM

OK.. maybe I have missed this so I will ask. How can these kids be returned when the judges don't even know who the parents are?

:shrug: I am so lost.

Mimi428

06-17-2008, 02:06 PM

Originally posted by gemsbmw
OK.. maybe I have missed this so I will ask. How can these kids be returned when the judges don't even know who the parents are?

:shrug: I am so lost. [/*]

My recollection is that the final agreement was that pictures were to be taken of each adult & the child(ren) they were claiming as their own.

Should be interesting to find out if the DNA agrees, because there were about 100 kids whose parentage was in question.

gemsbmw

06-17-2008, 02:47 PM

Details

06-17-2008, 08:38 PM

Originally posted by Mimi428
My recollection is that the final agreement was that pictures were to be taken of each adult & the child(ren) they were claiming as their own.

Should be interesting to find out if the DNA agrees, because there were about 100 kids whose parentage was in question. [/*]I'm wondering if there's any penalty for claiming as your own a child that is later found not to be... From a lot of things that have been published, that sounds likely to happen. The Canadian child, for example, wasn't it her mother who was back in Canada? Who picked her up?

Mimi428

06-17-2008, 09:20 PM

Originally posted by Imperfect

Anyone else watch the show today? [/*]

I'm sorry to say I did not see the show. I appreciate the recap you gave us - especially on the variations in the different groups as they appeared on the show.

juliekan

06-17-2008, 10:05 PM

there were parts from the old show, part of it new...I can't believe that guy and his wives trotted out for this interview, I don't remember them from the previous show. I guess no fear of repercussions. Not like it's illegal to be polygamous....

KatyDid

06-17-2008, 10:39 PM

Originally posted by Imperfect
Okay, I just watched the Oprah-on-polygamy show ... I have a feeling it was probably the one that aired several weeks ago that I missed.

Anyhoo, on the show there were the 3 sister wives from the Salt Lake area, a family from Centennial Park in Northern AZ which included the husband for a change, and Lisa Ling reporting from both Centennial Park and Colorado City, with Carolyn Jessop.

I have just a few observations, which I know y'all are dying for me to share. :D

The group from Salt Lake is this totally modern, hip bunch of women in full makeup, cute hairstyles and clothes. They behave and speak like most women I've met. If I worked with one of them, I don't think I'd notice anything odd about her at all.

The group from Centennial Park is way more modern than any of Jeffs' bunch, but the women seemed a bit more like the YFZ mothers in some ways. They have that flat affect some of the time -- like something's missing -- and their answers were often defensive sounding and a bit holier than thou. That's also the vibe I picked up off the FLDS robo-moms.

The husband seemed like a fairly regular guy. And DANG but those homes they showed in Centennial Park are nice! Sheesh! Old Richard (the husband on the show) is doing mighty well for himself, his wives, and their dozens of children. One of the wives is in business with Richard, which I found surprising.

Oprah asked him to explain 'The Principle' -- he said nothing more than it involved marrying more than one woman. He didn't mention that it is a religious principle, even. Weird, I thought.

The Colorado City shots were just creepy beyond belief. Ugh. Lisa and a group were standing by the side of a road, and FLDS'ers who drove by would honk at them. It was mentioned that their homes have one-way windows - they can see out but no one can see in. And there's no comparison between the way the Colo City people live and those in Centennial Park. Colorado City looks a whole lot like hell on earth, as far as I'm concerned.

I believe every word out of Carolyn Jessop's mouth -- she seems to me like the nicest, sweetest little soul. Thank God she got out of there. I hope she makes enough to live and retire on from her book.

Anyone else watch the show today? [/*]

Thank you Imperfect!
I ended up missing the show today. :(

Wok Inn

06-18-2008, 12:53 AM

Originally posted by Imperfect

Okay, a show of hands.

Who 'clicked to enlarge' the picture of Warren at the link?

Anyone?

Anyone?

barf [/*]

I did! Ew.

Now just imagine you're a twelve year old girl who has to kiss that ugly mug.

spirit07

06-18-2008, 01:00 AM

Originally posted by Wok Inn

I did! Ew.

Now just imagine you're a twelve year old girl who has to kiss that ugly mug. [/*]

Oh, now that is gross. Anyone wonder what is up with those ears?

juliekan

06-18-2008, 01:09 AM

Originally posted by spirit07

Oh, now that is gross. Anyone wonder what is up with those ears? [/*]

Inbreeding? or just age? your ears and nose never stops growing...

walton

06-18-2008, 01:19 AM

http://thehopeorg.org/news_action_KDM_CC_residents_flock_to_bookmobile.h tml

"There was a steady stream of library patrons who made their way to the bookmobile to check out books," said Robert Shupe, MCLD director.

Approximately 150 new library cards were issued at the stop, MCLD Marketing and Development Specialist Kathy McGehee said. The numbers are expected to grow as residents in the area become aware of MCLD's services, she added.

This is the best thing I've seen in a long time.

:)

Wok Inn

06-18-2008, 10:09 AM

Originally posted by spirit07

Oh, now that is gross. Anyone wonder what is up with those ears? [/*]

For me, the creep factor was the eyes... they are just dead, soulless things.

Wok Inn

06-18-2008, 01:14 PM

Originally posted by Imperfect

He doesn't look intelligent or engaging or charismatic. His features are rubbery looking -- there's no strength in them. He has no presence. Even his voice lacks presence.

Heck, even Big Willie has more presence than Jeffs.

:shrug: [/*]

I agree about his voice... I was listening to one of his taped "sermons" and it was also very creepy. Very distant and definitely not commanding. I don't understand how people can follow this man, but the fear of eternal damnation is a powerful thing.

Who is Big Willie?

Mimi428

06-18-2008, 01:46 PM

Originally posted by Imperfect

I agree with all of you -- this is not an attractive man.

What I find disconcerting is that none of his features or expressions give evidence that he's a leader with a whole bunch of followers.

He doesn't look intelligent or engaging or charismatic. His features are rubbery looking -- there's no strength in them. He has no presence. Even his voice lacks presence.

Jim Jones and Koresh were charismatic (and attractive, some might argue). Manson's presence was his raging insanity. He's completely scary, but you definitely know when the little guy is in the room.

Heck, even Big Willie has more presence than Jeffs.

:shrug: [/*]

I think Warren's one & only 'claim to fame', so to speak is the fact that he is the direct descendant of a former prophet. All of Rulon's followers were groomed to accept him (Warren) as the prophet upon Rulon's death. His close association with his father allowed him, even before his father's death, to cull out any who would not be extremely loyal to him.

By the time Rulon died, I think those who remained were acutely aware that everything in their lives was dependent upon staying in Warren's good graces. Everything in their afterlives was also dependent on it!

Jim Jones & David Koresh had to possess the charisma to attract followers. Warren, in contrast, didn't need to attract any of them - they were already present & patiently waiting for him (for the most part).

JMO

juliekan

06-18-2008, 04:24 PM

When are we going to hear something about the DNA and possible charges!! Not a peep in the papers about it.

walton

06-18-2008, 05:39 PM

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9625046

Utah birth certificates may be playing a significant role in an investigation into possible sexual abuse at a polygamous sect's Texas ranch, The Salt Lake Tribune has learned.
An Arizona investigator requested copies of birth certificates for approximately 25 FLDS couples from the YFZ Ranch - about 50 people in all - to confirm their dates of birth, according to Jeff Duncan, director of the Utah Office of Vital Records and Statistics.

Gary Engles (one of the good guys)

:D

juliekan

06-18-2008, 05:44 PM

Thanks Walton, checked Brooke's blog a couple of hours ago, but there was nothing there.
I'm glad that article clarified why there were problems with the birth certificates.

spirit07

06-18-2008, 08:05 PM

Originally posted by walton
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9625046

Utah birth certificates may be playing a significant role in an investigation into possible sexual abuse at a polygamous sect's Texas ranch, The Salt Lake Tribune has learned.
An Arizona investigator requested copies of birth certificates for approximately 25 FLDS couples from the YFZ Ranch - about 50 people in all - to confirm their dates of birth, according to Jeff Duncan, director of the Utah Office of Vital Records and Statistics.

Gary Engles (one of the good guys)

:D [/*]

I found this part of the article very interesting...

[However, FLDS members contacted Utah Gov. Jon Huntsman Jr. for help, including verifying information on the documents. Huntsman's office, in turn, asked Duncan's office whether it was possible to authenticate birth certificates.
"I told them I could verify facts and the paper it is on, but I never heard back from them," Duncan said.
As the Texas investigation unfolded, Duncan said the Vital Statistics office in St. George received several requests to issue delayed birth certificates for children born more than a year ago.
The requests, forwarded to Salt Lake City, were refused because information provided to document the births and the child's parents was insufficient, he said.]

juliekan

06-18-2008, 09:18 PM

Originally posted by Imperfect
Help!

I really don't understand what the article is saying ... can someone translate it for me and tell me why it's significant?

:confused: [/*]

If you look at Spirit's post, it explains that the birth certificates that were offered by some of the FLDS couldn't be authenticated. FLDS merely said Texas wouldn't even accept their birth certs, didn't say they couldn't be proved to be real:shrug:

Mimi428

06-18-2008, 09:27 PM

A couple of things I think are possibly significant. . .

Primary question of residency - were the children for whom the birth certificates are now being requested actually born in Texas - or in Utah (the state where they are being requested). Texas law addressing minors giving birth may be stricter than Utah laws.

IOW, if the baby was born in TX & the mother was 16, that's a problem. However, if the baby was born in UT & the mother was 16, that may NOT be a problem under UT laws. (hypothetical example, I do not recall what the specific, relevant ages are in each state)

Question of true age of children for whom delayed birth certificates are being requested. Let's say that 'spiritual wife' has a baby 18 months old - & it can be proven that this particular wife would have been a minor at the time of conception. It could behoove the mother in question to lower her baby's age to say - 14 months, at which time she (mother) would have not been a minor.

Question of parentage - child born to a female who was a minor & the infant's age can't be backed up far enough to show mother was not a minor - another person might claim to be the parent of said infant.

There are probably more possibilities, but those are the ones that have occurred to me so far.

JMO

Mimi428

06-18-2008, 09:29 PM

Originally posted by juliekan

If you look at Spirit's post, it explains that the birth certificates that were offered by some of the FLDS couldn't be authenticated. FLDS merely said Texas wouldn't even accept their birth certs, didn't say they couldn't be proved to be real:shrug: [/*]

YEAH! That, too!

(I wasn't even thinking about that aspect, good catch!)

spirit07

06-18-2008, 09:45 PM

Originally posted by Imperfect
Help!

I really don't understand what the article is saying ... can someone translate it for me and tell me why it's significant?

:confused: [/*]

I'm not real sure what the article's author was saying about the Texas attempts to authenticate - I guess that Texas did just reject some birth certificates (from Utah?) although IIRC the article doesn't expound much on this.

It does sound like FLDS members backed off when they asked about whether birth certificates from Utah could be authenticated or not and they got a 'yes' as the answer.

I agree with mimi also, one of the possibilities of the FLDS asking about getting a Utah birth certificate essentially 'posted dated' could be because the FLDS would try to claim an infant wasn't quite as old as it was.

spirit07

06-18-2008, 09:48 PM

Originally posted by Wok Inn

For me, the creep factor was the eyes... they are just dead, soulless things. [/*]

I'd like to think those are leprchaun ears, but somehow I just kept thinking devil ears - don't go look or you won't be able to get rid of the image which will lead to this ---> barf

KatyDid

06-18-2008, 09:50 PM

Originally posted by spirit07

I found this part of the article very interesting...

[However, FLDS members contacted Utah Gov. Jon Huntsman Jr. for help, including verifying information on the documents. Huntsman's office, in turn, asked Duncan's office whether it was possible to authenticate birth certificates.
"I told them I could verify facts and the paper it is on, but I never heard back from them," Duncan said.
As the Texas investigation unfolded, Duncan said the Vital Statistics office in St. George received several requests to issue delayed birth certificates for children born more than a year ago.
The requests, forwarded to Salt Lake City, were refused because information provided to document the births and the child's parents was insufficient, he said.] [/*]

several requests for dealyed birth certificates :eek:

that gives makes me wonder just HOW MANY children are born and never have a birth certificate. that is a scary thought, imo.

spirit07

06-18-2008, 11:04 PM

Originally posted by Imperfect
Thanks for the explanations.

I have a few specific questions from the article:

It says that Engels (in AZ) requested birth certificates for 25 couples - about 50 people - to confirm their dates of birth. The official in Utah (Duncan) says he never heard anything directly from Texas about the birth certificates.

I don't understand why it's important that Duncan never heard anything directly from Texas. Or is it?

:shrug: [/*]

I noticed that too. I think, not sure, that little factoid was just thrown in there, but maybe isn't significant.

spirit07

06-18-2008, 11:09 PM

Originally posted by Imperfect

Engels provided a spreadsheet of men and women and their ages, based on the Bishop's list.

Do I take this to mean he provided the spreadsheet to Utah in order to help with the birth certificates he was requesting?

When Duncan says that St. George received several requests, after the TX raid, to issue delayed birth certificates for children born more than a year ago, is he saying that Utah was being asked by the requestors (presumably the FLDS) to falsify documents?

:shrug: [/*]

That was my take on the spreadsheet - although somehow the way this article is written it makes it seem like there is missing information (it may just be a bit unclear as written though).

I'd have to go back and read. I don't think Duncan was specifically saying they were asking them to falsify documents, just that they asked about getting 'delayed birth certificates' - but then were any even requested by the FLDS after being given the requirements? Not sure if the FLDS backed off of that for the most part because they were told they needed XYZ to verify the births? Haha - now I really have to reread that article again!

walton

06-19-2008, 12:17 AM

http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/

Brookes entry dated today:

The International Cultic Studies Association will hold its annual conference June 26-29 in Philadelphia and polygamy pops up all over the schedule.

Paul Murphy, spokesman for Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff, and Jane Irvine of the Arizona Attorney General's Office will speak on June 27 on ''Polygamy and Government: Policies, Powers and Limitations of State and Local Governments.''

The bottom line says it all though. It is a cult.

I don't know why but it just cracks me up that Shurtleff is going to speak and people will listen. :lol:

He should be giving a seminar on how to give the appearance of a government official doing his job but not really.

How to walk and talk in circles 101.

jmo

walton

06-19-2008, 12:36 AM

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_9625046

One of the really important things about this article is that Gary Engles is the one asking for the documents. Gary Engles is a no BS type of guy. He doesn't talk to be heard and doesn't spit in the wind.

He has been following/living the FLDS for a few years now. He has looked at the Bishops list every which way and he sees something that is jumping out at him. :D

Another really really important thing mentioned is that the FLDS never followed up on getting the birth certificates when it was at the time so very important that they prove they were the parents.

The big rush to send these kids home before finding out the true parentage imo was/is a mistake.

It is my opinion that some of these kids have parents that are living in Utah and Arizona.

Where oh where is Merril? And Wendell? And what about those Allred boys?

walton

06-19-2008, 12:48 AM

http://thehopeorg.org/news_boys_ABC4_Parley_Dutson_trial_begins.html

A young man raised in the FLDS community is now on trial for murder.

Parley Jeffs Dutson is one of the so-called "Lost Boys," exiled as a teen from the polygamous community. Now he is on trial for his former girlfriend's murder.

This is such a sad story.

I really really don't like Warren Jeffs.

spirit07

06-19-2008, 01:16 AM

Originally posted by walton
http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_9625046

One of the really important things about this article is that Gary Engles is the one asking for the documents. Gary Engles is a no BS type of guy. He doesn't talk to be heard and doesn't spit in the wind.

He has been following/living the FLDS for a few years now. He has looked at the Bishops list every which way and he sees something that is jumping out at him. :D

Another really really important thing mentioned is that the FLDS never followed up on getting the birth certificates when it was at the time so very important that they prove they were the parents.

The big rush to send these kids home before finding out the true parentage imo was/is a mistake.

It is my opinion that some of these kids have parents that are living in Utah and Arizona.

Where oh where is Merril? And Wendell? And what about those Allred boys? [/*]

I was just reading an older article...good grief he really has been following them a long time, so much information gathered even way before the raid. It'll be interesting when all the parents and relationships are fully identified. The article I was just reading also mentioned how much equipment and such was siphoned off in CC ending up at the El Dorado ranch, complete with CC public employees providing much of the work while on their payroll. Oh, and the missing plane from the CC School District - was that ever found?

walton

06-19-2008, 01:34 AM

Originally posted by Bratlings

Well I suppose when you cant win by justifying "why" they took the kids, let's pretend after the fact that they all had kids in their care that were not theirs. Is that the new game? [/*]

I don't play games Brat. Neither should you. jmo

walton

06-19-2008, 01:37 AM

Originally posted by spirit07

I was just reading an older article...good grief he really has been following them a long time, so much information gathered even way before the raid. It'll be interesting when all the parents and relationships are fully identified. The article I was just reading also mentioned how much equipment and such was siphoned off in CC ending up at the El Dorado ranch, complete with CC public employees providing much of the work while on their payroll. Oh, and the missing plane from the CC School District - was that ever found? [/*]

That is just a little bit of the Lost and Found. I am not sure about the plane.

evalles

06-19-2008, 01:31 PM

Originally posted by Imperfect

To some people, Walton, it's all just a game. It's all about who's winning, who's losing, who's scoring points.

Some people feel they 'won' because the appeals court ordered the return of the children. They 'won' because the TX supreme court upheld the decision of the appeals court.

The kids don't matter a bit. At the end of the day, even the question of the parents' constitutional rights doesn't matter a bit. All that matters is who 'won.'

Ugh. [/*]

IMO, the families won when the children were allowed to go home.
Their rights being protected is also a win for anybody that has experienced injustices.

I was driving home from work when I heard the court's decision, I was laughing and crying at the same time. Not because I won, because they did, and the children and their mothers were going to be reunited.
By now, you should have seen that some of the families should have their children. This had to have been the worst thing that ever happened to them.

evalles

06-19-2008, 01:33 PM

I agree -- big mistake to send the kids back before the DNA results were in and all that mess was sorted out. Now I'm wondering whether the FLDS parents will really comply with the state's request to stay put.

__________________________________________________ _'

Why, when they should never have been taken in the first place ?

Vinnie

06-19-2008, 02:00 PM

Evalles, you act like the FLDS are just a version of the Amish - an old-fashioned group with a few peculiarities, that's all.

If only that were the truth.

I don't have a problem with the children being returned to the mothers - especially if the mothers don't return to the ranch and to the men.

I read a case in which one of the oldest of the lost boys brought a case against the police in Hildale, UT. He went to his own house and tried to enter it, and the police handcuffed him and took him away. A federal court judge ruled this year that the police were JUSTIFIED in doing what they did. Unbelievable. I wonder what happened behind the scenes with that judge.

The problem is that the FLDS biggies are like the mob!

evalles

06-19-2008, 05:54 PM

Originally posted by Vinnie
Evalles, you act like the FLDS are just a version of the Amish - an old-fashioned group with a few peculiarities, that's all.

If only that were the truth.

I don't have a problem with the children being returned to the mothers - especially if the mothers don't return to the ranch and to the men.

I read a case in which one of the oldest of the lost boys brought a case against the police in Hildale, UT. He went to his own house and tried to enter it, and the police handcuffed him and took him away. A federal court judge ruled this year that the police were JUSTIFIED in doing what they did. Unbelievable. I wonder what happened behind the scenes with that judge.

The problem is that the FLDS biggies are like the mob! [/*]

Was this boy an adult and was this his house or his parents ?

If so, his parents don't have to allow him to live in their house.

walton

06-19-2008, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by Imperfect

Thanks, Walton. :seeya:

Now I think I get it. Because of Engels' FLDS knowledge, he was quickly able to look over the Bishop's list, see where the discrepanices probably lie, and make the most logical requests for birth certificates.

I also get your second point, about the FLDS parents never following up to get the BC's, even despite the urgent nature of their situation. Looks like they were ready to give up their kids in order to protect the men of the sect -- doesn't it?

I agree -- big mistake to send the kids back before the DNA results were in and all that mess was sorted out. Now I'm wondering whether the FLDS parents will really comply with the state's request to stay put.

**snipped**

IMO. [/*]

When I first got the chance to really look over the Bishops list I was trying to match this one up with that one. But I was missing a link or two. Gary Engles can match it AND put in the missing link. :D I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't come up with another "missing" list. imo

Concerning the matching up of kids to birth parents via birth certificates... I don't think they could have done it and I am sure Parker knows they couldn't have done it. Who is paying Parker anyway?

I think any one who stood by and witnessed/ knew about/ participated in the 'spiritual weddings" of young girls should be charged with a crime.

walton

06-19-2008, 06:15 PM

Originally posted by Bratlings

As a junior investigator you have forgotten the entire point that they went in there for to begin with. This is about children younger than 16 who were married. Not about 16 or older regardless of how old the men are who married them. This is not about adults who had several wives, and who fathered who unless they are under 16. [/*]

:D

I didn't forget anything. I am sure Gary Engles might be trying to match up some of those young teens back home with little ones to the ones that are in Texas.

Ladyhawk

06-19-2008, 06:55 PM

LLaFren

06-19-2008, 07:26 PM

Why do some posters have a problem with the fact that "spiritual marriages" are NOT legal marriages, I want to see proof of a marriage certificate, I dang sure know that I had to show proof of one to change my name and to add my husbands name to the birth certificate when our daughter was born (navy guy he was out at sea when she was born).

Wow, just wow

spirit07

06-19-2008, 10:17 PM

Originally posted by Bratlings

LOL This is by far the funniest post I ever read. The Amish practice MANY of the exact same things except polygamy. They arrange marriages, physically abuse their kids, throw them out and shun them, remove their childrens teeth to avoid dentists or as punishment, and marry minors, and refuse to report sexual abuse and rape. Should we go after them next and remove all their kids? [/*]

What? Where on Earth did you get this garbage from. I've talked to many Amish, they all had teeth. Old men do not marry young girls. I believe they have a choice in who they marry whether there is matchmaking or not. You are correct about no polygamy. Their teenagers are allowed a time period and even encouraged to go explore the outside world. You should be ashamed for claiming this stuff about the Amish.

spirit07

06-19-2008, 10:27 PM

Originally posted by Bratlings
Another thing that occurred to me is that the State of Texas has prosecuted spiritual weddings as real marriages for the sake of bygamy charges. They might have a hard time prosecuting spiritual marriages between 16 year olds and adults not involving polygamy because of this. Essentially they cant have it both ways.

Another thing is they have lived in Texas quite a while some of those spiritual marriages would have taken place before the law was changed to raise the legal age to marry at 16. So those who married younger girls than 16 could be off the hook. I think those too will be difficult to prosecute. [/*]

Uh, I don't think anyone is trying to prosecute a man for one spiritual marriage with one young woman of age. They can be prosecuted for polygamy and they can be prosecuted for having sex with someone under 16. Even if it was before the law changed, the law was 15 before, wasn't it, so that would rule out such 'unions' as Jeff's and his 12 year old bride. The timeframe you are talking about anyway is very small so what is the big point.

spirit07

06-19-2008, 10:29 PM

Originally posted by Ladyhawk

OMG....Amish children have no teeth:eek: [/*]

;)

juliekan

06-20-2008, 01:30 AM

Brats, some of the sites you posted about the Amish are questionable, but some are quite believable...and very sad. I'm sorry that this is going on in a culture that I always thought was idyllic. Just goes to show you that there is evil in all cultures.

evalles

06-20-2008, 08:52 AM

Originally posted by Bratlings

Oh that is really funny!!!! Especially the "who may or may not be guilty of all the things you list"

I guess now we are back to whether or not people who have left the religion are being truthful.... Should we believe them or not? make up your mind! Or is it we should believe FLDS survivors and not Amish survivors because FLDS is the flavor of the moment?

I dont need to repeat that this is all about the kids rights, the adults rights and anyone else involved. BUT... That allows that each person accused is innocent until proven guilty! That no one should be categorized or stereotyped with others because of a few bad. That's all I ask, unlike you. If you extend the Amish those rights and not the FLDS thats BIG TIME HYPOCRICY! And puts everything you say or type into much needed context.
:rolleyes: [/*]

I was thinking the same thing.

spirit07

06-20-2008, 01:40 PM

Originally posted by Imperfect

You're not making sense. Take a deep breath, do some Googling, and give me something to read that makes sense -- like a link to all those Amish atrocities you've listed.

:rolleyes: [/*]

It seems pointless to even try and respond to some of these posts since what is NOT similar between the two groups is what really matters. The Amish do not live in gated compounds guarded with guns and do not have a history or religious belief in marrying off young girls to old farts or helping a man reach his 3 wife quota to get to heaven. Polygamy is a key problem because of what it promotes, but let's not mention guns, money, using public funds, building an empire, being a cult, and so on. Now, it appears, some point about the truthfulness of the 'leavers' is being twisted - trying to get some wedge in there to say most posters here are biased, as if this somehow diminishes the truthfulness of the stories told by those who have left the FLDS. This forum is about the FLDS, not about the Amish.

I would be far more surprised if there were any completely idyllic culture on this planet than to find out one fairly idyllic culture has some marks against it. This is not the case with the FLDS as is supported by the huge investigative effort put forth in many states over many years of time.

walton

06-20-2008, 06:05 PM

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_9637417

A grand jury will meet next week in Eldorado, Texas, to hear testimony that could lead to indictments of members of a polygamous sect.
A Schleicher County clerk confirmed the grand jury has been called in but would not say why or when it would meet. But The Salt Lake Tribune has learned the hearing will be under way by Wednesday and is related to the investigation of residents of the Yearning for Zion Ranch, all members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The grand jury met June 2 but didn't take up any FLDS-related matters.

walton

06-20-2008, 10:45 PM

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9651956

A Texas judge has temporarily barred an FLDS spokesman accused of intimidation from contacting a daughter of polygamous sect leader Warren S. Jeffs.
Attorney Natalie Malonis, joined by guardian ad litem Connie Gauwain, filed a motion Friday asking for a restraining order against Willie Jessop.

Now what good reason would this 40 year old something man have to try and be in contact with a 16 year old girl?

lotty

06-21-2008, 09:17 AM

Originally posted by walton
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9651956

A Texas judge has temporarily barred an FLDS spokesman accused of intimidation from contacting a daughter of polygamous sect leader Warren S. Jeffs.
Attorney Natalie Malonis, joined by guardian ad litem Connie Gauwain, filed a motion Friday asking for a restraining order against Willie Jessop.

Now what good reason would this 40 year old something man have to try and be in contact with a 16 year old girl? [/*]

Thanks Walton, just finished reading the article....ummmm speechless.

Roux

06-21-2008, 10:53 AM

Originally posted by lotty

Thanks Walton, just finished reading the article....ummmm speechless. [/*]

Remember our fellow poster Savannah Star intimated she had negative knowledge of atty Melonis, but never provided any details.

It is just amazing that Willie and Parker lie about everyone and spin everything. It is pitiful that the poor girl is being used and I don't believe she wrote any letters or emails herself.

It does bother me about the allegation that the girl had a child and if IIRC it was later shown she did not. However wasn't there some speculation that someone else had possibly claimed her child?

spirit07

06-21-2008, 01:13 PM

Originally posted by walton
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9651956

A Texas judge has temporarily barred an FLDS spokesman accused of intimidation from contacting a daughter of polygamous sect leader Warren S. Jeffs.
Attorney Natalie Malonis, joined by guardian ad litem Connie Gauwain, filed a motion Friday asking for a restraining order against Willie Jessop.

Now what good reason would this 40 year old something man have to try and be in contact with a 16 year old girl? [/*]

We now see how difficult it would be to represent one of the FLDS children unless, as the attorney, you basically just did what would go well with what the FLDS wants to see happen. I am glad to see this is more evidence of Willie's bullying and interference with the legal process.

Mimi428

06-21-2008, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by spirit07

We now see how difficult it would be to represent one of the FLDS children unless, as the attorney, you basically just did what would go well with what the FLDS wants to see happen. I am glad to see this is more evidence of Willie's bullying and interference with the legal process. [/*]

ITA. I am fearful of what this young girl has been told will happen to her if she testifies before the grand jury. I'm not at all confident right now that she or her mother will be able to withstand Willie's tactics.

At the very least, she has no doubt been told she will be going straight to h#ll if she does not protect the prophet, etc.

I have to wonder why Malonis allowed the girl to go to the ranch in the first place, on June 10th.

KatyDid

06-21-2008, 01:57 PM

How long will it take Texas to put the dna puzzle together? Aren't the dna results completed now?

spirit07

06-21-2008, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by Mimi428

ITA. I am fearful of what this young girl has been told will happen to her if she testifies before the grand jury. I'm not at all confident right now that she or her mother will be able to withstand Willie's tactics.

At the very least, she has no doubt been told she will be going straight to h#ll if she does not protect the prophet, etc.

I have to wonder why Malonis allowed the girl to go to the ranch in the first place, on June 10th. [/*]

Yes, I have the same fears. I wondered about the ranch visit - not many details except it was 3 hours long! Did it say the attorney knew beforehand? I'm also not sure at that point if the attorney could have stopped it, although now it seems it would be out-of-the-question.

Mimi428

06-21-2008, 07:48 PM

Originally posted by KatyDid
How long will it take Texas to put the dna puzzle together? Aren't the dna results completed now? [/*]

I have not heard nor read anything lately about the DNA results. Perhaps the grand jury that is meeting next week will be given DNA info. If that is the case, I can understand why the public would not hear about it beforehand.

KatyDid

06-21-2008, 09:44 PM

Originally posted by Mimi428

I have not heard nor read anything lately about the DNA results. Perhaps the grand jury that is meeting next week will be given DNA info. If that is the case, I can understand why the public would not hear about it beforehand. [/*]

Thanks Mimi :seeya:

I guess that is the next big thing in this case.

lunchlady

06-22-2008, 12:33 PM

Is there any talk of billing FLDS for all the money they fraudulently got out of the Texas welfare system? If these men can't afford to feed/clothe/etc their dozens of children themselves then I don't see why they expect the government to do so. No one I know expects to be able to have unlimited children and have someone else subsidize their population explosion.
I guess their feeling of entitlement to government funds goes along with their general feeling of moral superiority to everyone else. I disgree. All those hair poufs and prairie dresses and white towers just make me mad.
I'm okay with them taking care of their own kids, as long as the little girls aren't going to be "married" to ugly old men soon. Its ridiculously expensive to have the foster care system take care of all those kids.
What I'd really like is to somehow shut down the babymaking operation altogether. Maybe put contraceptives in their wells.

Mimi428

06-22-2008, 12:37 PM

Originally posted by lunchlady
Is there any talk of billing FLDS for all the money they fraudulently got out of the Texas welfare system? [/*]

<snipped>

To the best of my knowledge, the FLDS did not apply for nor receive 'welfare' benefits from the state of Texas. Nothing in the news reports has indicated they ever applied for TANF or food stamps or WIC or anything else of that nature.

I know in other states, that has not been the case. But right now, it appears that the Eldorado group stayed from those sorts of activities.

evalles

06-22-2008, 01:17 PM

Originally posted by spirit07

Yes, I have the same fears. I wondered about the ranch visit - not many details except it was 3 hours long! Did it say the attorney knew beforehand? I'm also not sure at that point if the attorney could have stopped it, although now it seems it would be out-of-the-question. [/*]

I thought I read somewhere that her attorney went with her.

evalles

06-22-2008, 01:27 PM

Originally posted by Roux

Remember our fellow poster Savannah Star intimated she had negative knowledge of atty Melonis, but never provided any details.

It is just amazing that Willie and Parker lie about everyone and spin everything. It is pitiful that the poor girl is being used and I don't believe she wrote any letters or emails herself.

It does bother me about the allegation that the girl had a child and if IIRC it was later shown she did not. However wasn't there some speculation that someone else had possibly claimed her child? [/*]

I also read that they had originally claimed that she was pregnant.
Her hymen was supposedly intact, indicating that she is a virgin.

As much as I feel that the state did the wrong thing, I would be surprised if they didn't find any child that was sexually abused.
It's what I expect from society now anyway.

I'm taking my 7 year old bike shopping so I don't have time to find the link, plus I'm trying to spend less time on the computer.

Mimi428

06-22-2008, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by evalles

I also read that they had originally claimed that she was pregnant.
Her hymen was supposedly intact, indicating that she is a virgin.

As much as I feel that the state did the wrong thing, I would be surprised if they didn't find any child that was sexually abused.
It's what I expect from society now anyway.

I'm taking my 7 year old bike shopping so I don't have time to find the link, plus I'm trying to spend less time on the computer. [/*]

Convenient hit & run.
:chicken:

Sorry, I'm not buying that information about the state of her virginity. That is NOT the sort of information that is disseminated to the public.

JMO

LLaFren

06-22-2008, 05:49 PM

Originally posted by Mimi428

Convenient hit & run.
:chicken:

Sorry, I'm not buying that information about the state of her virginity. That is NOT the sort of information that is disseminated to the public.

JMO [/*]

I can't believe that info would be posted anywhere. If a doctor can't even tell you if your child is one or not, than this would not be made available to the public.

evalles

06-22-2008, 05:53 PM

Originally posted by Mimi428

Convenient hit & run.
:chicken:

Sorry, I'm not buying that information about the state of her virginity. That is NOT the sort of information that is disseminated to the public.

JMO [/*]

Nope, now that the kids are back this case isn't as important to me. I'm trying to spend more time with my family.

I don' t know about the state of her virginity and you must not have understood that I don't automatically believe that this girl wasn't abused.
To the contrary, IMO somebody had to have been abused, it's what I expect from our society in general.

Oh, I think I read about it on that Medvecky guy's site, if not it was on one of the links from his site.

SavannahStar

06-22-2008, 09:11 PM

Originally posted by Roux

Remember our fellow poster Savannah Star intimated she had negative knowledge of atty Melonis, but never provided any details.

*snipped* [/*]

My ears were burning! :)

"Negative knowledge"? What is that? It's my own opinion I supposed...only that she has shown herself to be quite biased against the FLDS..not exactly what I would expect an atty ad litem to be......she's also posted publicly on message boards re same bias.

So, whether anyone else thinks that's "negative" is up to the individual.

I would rather see the people called to represent those children to have an unbiased attitude.

I don't post at all about this case anymore, lost interest pretty much but my opinions haven't changed.

I just briefly glanced at the article. All I know is the girl does NOT want Malonis as her attorney anymore. And I think that should be heeded.

All IMO. Hi, all. :seeya:

spirit07

06-22-2008, 10:29 PM

Originally posted by Imperfect

ITA on all points. I usually try to ignore the posts you reference, but once in awhile I let myself get drawn in.

:punch: (Me, smacking me) [/*]

I know, same here. Needing to smack myself also.

Mimi428

06-22-2008, 10:33 PM

If this has already been posted, my apologies - I just saw it on the Houston Chronicle website.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/5850147.html

FLDS is left without a leader
With Jeffs in jail no one seems to know whom in sect holds power

Legal pressure is mounting against the breakaway Mormon sect on several fronts. Courts forced Texas authorities to return the hundreds of children it seized in April from the FLDS ranch near Eldorado but is building a criminal case as it investigates alleged forced marriages between minor girls and older men there. A massive civil suit against the church is winding its way through the courts in Utah.

And the group's leaders appear to be underground, and possibly on the run.

Mimi428

06-22-2008, 10:35 PM

Oops - forgot to add this part. Same link as above.

Some possible potential FLDS leaders:

• William Timpson Jessop, who once was anointed by Jeffs to be the sect's bishop.

•Lyle Jeffs; a half-brother of Jeffs who is said to lead the sect's enclaves on the Utah-Arizona border.

•Merrill Jessop, who was in charge of the Yearning for Zion Ranch in West Texas at the time of the raid that removed the children. He is said to remain the leader in Texas, though he was reported missing by a wife last month during a custody hearing.

•Wendell Nielson, a man in his late 60s listed in a church document seized during the raid as having more wives — 21 — than any other resident of the Yearning For Zion Ranch.

Any guesses for who has the most likely chance to be the next leader & who has gone underground?

I really think Merrill & Wendell may be out of the country.

Roux

06-22-2008, 11:35 PM

Originally posted by SavannahStar

My ears were burning! :)

"Negative knowledge"? What is that? It's my own opinion I supposed...only that she has shown herself to be quite biased against the FLDS..not exactly what I would expect an atty ad litem to be......she's also posted publicly on message boards re same bias.

So, whether anyone else thinks that's "negative" is up to the individual.

I would rather see the people called to represent those children to have an unbiased attitude.

I don't post at all about this case anymore, lost interest pretty much but my opinions haven't changed.

I just briefly glanced at the article. All I know is the girl does NOT want Malonis as her attorney anymore. And I think that should be heeded.

All IMO. Hi, all. :seeya: [/*]

Maybe I took it the wrong way but I thought you implied in a post that you knew something negative about atty Melonis. Maybe you got that from her posting on a message board? That would surprise me that an atty involved in this would be posting on a public message board. The only thing I knew about her was that I saw her once on NG and she seemed a reasonable person (as reasonable as one can be to be on NG!) How do you know she has a biased attitude? Maybe it didn't start out that way but she learned things that changed her mind?

There are a couple of other posters who have lost interest now that the children have been returned, but many of us are waiting for the grand jury and any DNA test results that may become public.

juliekan

06-23-2008, 02:09 AM

Originally posted by evalles

I also read that they had originally claimed that she was pregnant.
Her hymen was supposedly intact, indicating that she is a virgin.

As much as I feel that the state did the wrong thing, I would be surprised if they didn't find any child that was sexually abused.
It's what I expect from society now anyway.

I'm taking my 7 year old bike shopping so I don't have time to find the link, plus I'm trying to spend less time on the computer. [/*]

I have to agree...I have found myself spending an exorbitant time on the computer when I should be doing something else...best of luck to the both of us to resist the lure...
but for now, I have been out of town for a few days so I should get to play!

juliekan

06-23-2008, 02:49 AM

Ok, I was in Kerrville, TX today on my way to drop my daughter off at camp. Pulled up to get gas at a convenience store. A boy(about 12-13) got out of his car and then his dad. I noticed the boy was dressed in a long sleeved shirt and "jeans" and it was 98 degrees out. Then dad got out and he called the boy back and had a talk with the kid. Then they went into the store. About 5 minutes later, a woman and 3 other children got out of the new Suburban and went into the store. My husband came out and I said did you see the "FLDS?" He said "I just saw a young kid dressed in his Sunday best, was that him?" Of course I was dying to go in and at least speak to them or ask them something, but my husband gave me the look and I thought I oughta pass. (He's really good in a zillion other ways, so why irritate him now :D ) The young boy had on home-sewn shirt and jeans, the Dad, store bought. (Don't argue with me, I grew up poor and have been sewing since I was 10 years old.) The woman and kids had on the traditional dress, and WOW, the hair? One of the little girls had beautiful blond hair done up all fancy like the older women, I wish I knew how to do that...looked like satin loops....
Any way, I wish I could have at least gone into the store and seen if they would interact at all with me. I just wonder why they were there, why the dad called the boy back and talked to him before he would let him go into the store, why the women went in later. Wish I had just jumped out of the car and followed them in...I know DH wouldn't have left me:) if I had done it.
I will say I had a rush of empathy for the kids just seeing them...

SavannahStar

06-23-2008, 07:06 AM

Originally posted by Roux

Maybe I took it the wrong way but I thought you implied in a post that you knew something negative about atty Melonis. Maybe you got that from her posting on a message board? That would surprise me that an atty involved in this would be posting on a public message board. The only thing I knew about her was that I saw her once on NG and she seemed a reasonable person (as reasonable as one can be to be on NG!) How do you know she has a biased attitude? Maybe it didn't start out that way but she learned things that changed her mind?

There are a couple of other posters who have lost interest now that the children have been returned, but many of us are waiting for the grand jury and any DNA test results that may become public. [/*]

Well "negative" is just what I said on here.....re the posting on boards about the case as well as having a bias against the FLDS and taking on that job. How do I know she has a biased attitude? By reading her posts. I believe some of them were prior to her being appointed as atty ad litem.

Yes, I agree it is surprising about an attorney involved in the case posting on a public message board. Indeed. And I told her so myself.

I will not post links to any other boards so therefore I will add "IMO," however a basic google search may help in finding posts she's made. Though she does use a "nic" which would not identify her.

juliekan

06-23-2008, 05:11 PM

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/jun/23/sect-elder-suspected-of-intimidating-a-witness/

Hearing at 2 pm as to whether restraining order against Willie Jessop should be extended.

juliekan

06-23-2008, 05:15 PM

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700236898,00.html
Legal Web Around FLDS Trust Growing Tangled

Cat2007

06-23-2008, 08:13 PM

Originally posted by grammybear
It is my understanding that the job of the guardian ad litum is to speak for the child, not the parents, not the state or the religious affiliation. I do believe in this case the best interest of the child is to keep her away from the flds. She is with her mother and the mother and guardian ad litum was told to keep her away from Warren and the FLDS. I do not for one minute that that child wrote that letter to the judge. With only getting an eigth grade education I just do not believe it was written by her. Also my understanding of what happened Willie at the very least would threaten her to go to hell if she did not back up the FLDS.
I also believe that is exactly what Willie did, threaten her and I also believe he did this to get in the good graces of Warren Jessop.

jmoo [/*]

I sure hope they can enforce this, grammy. I am now reading Elissa Wall's book, and I am even more horrified that I was before. I feel so sorry for what she and other children went through, mostly because of Warren Jeffs. And her family broken up the way it was, her brothers sent to you might as well say "FLDS boot camps." The pain she and her mother and other siblings went through when her first brother was left on the highway to fend for himself, because the prophet said so. It is heartbreaking. I can just feel her pain. I am so glad she has a good life now.

Cat2007

06-23-2008, 09:23 PM

Grammy, I do feel kind of sorry for Elissa's mother, not only because she went through so much, but she really did not know any other way than the way she was raised. She believed the prophet was speaking for God. It broke her heart losing her children. She was a good, kind woman, and Elissa loves her very much. Heartbreaking, the whole story.

KatyDid

06-23-2008, 10:50 PM

Originally posted by juliekan
http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/jun/23/sect-elder-suspected-of-intimidating-a-witness/

Hearing at 2 pm as to whether restraining order against Willie Jessop should be extended. [/*]

If ever I read/heard about intimidation and branwashing, I just did. Clearly the young girl is a victim of both. Is her mother orchestrating her emails and requests to the judge?

:flamemad:

walton

06-24-2008, 12:15 AM

Check this one out:

http://blogs.sltrib.com/slcrawler/2008/06/flds-emerge-in-colo.htm

and from there: http://www.coloradoindependent.com/view/sheriff-investigates

Two months after a mass raid of a polygamist Mormon compound in Texas piqued the nation's interest, a similar sect in southern Colorado is flourishing — and in fact some speculate that the tiny town of Westcliffe in southwest Colorado may become the next polygamist nerve center in the United States. A compound there already hosts an estimated 30 members of the breakaway Mormon sect, and an aide to jailed polygamist leader Warren Jeffs has already shelled out more than $1 million for nearly 200 acres of land nearby.

So far, Jeffs' aide, Lee Anthony Steed, has bought 35- and 40-acre plots, including two compound facilities. And Steed isn't done. According to the local sheriff, Steed is looking to purchase at least two other large properties, a move that has law enforcement officials concerned about a mushrooming polygamist community in their back yard.

juliekan

06-24-2008, 12:19 AM

I guess now we know where Wendell and Merrill are...

walton

06-24-2008, 12:21 AM

I even brought back something for Texas SE.

http://blogs.sltrib.com/slcrawler/2008/06/dark-days-at-dnews.htm

juliekan

06-24-2008, 12:22 AM

Originally posted by walton
I even brought back something for Texas SE.

http://blogs.sltrib.com/slcrawler/2008/06/dark-days-at-dnews.htm [/*]
Maybe they can relocate to Colorado?

walton

06-24-2008, 12:23 AM

Originally posted by juliekan
I guess now we know where Wendell and Merrill are... [/*]

I have a funny feeling that the Feds know exactly where Wendell and Merrill have been planting their boots.

walton

06-24-2008, 12:27 AM

Originally posted by juliekan

Maybe they can relocate to Colorado? [/*]

Ya know they had some really good journalists there. I just find it really sad that the latest editor ( Joe Cannon) puts the El Kabong on some of their reporting. Can't be much fun covering a story with so many restrictions put on them. jmo

juliekan

06-24-2008, 12:29 AM

Originally posted by walton
Check this one out:

http://blogs.sltrib.com/slcrawler/2008/06/flds-emerge-in-colo.htm

and from there: http://www.coloradoindependent.com/view/sheriff-investigates

Two months after a mass raid of a polygamist Mormon compound in Texas piqued the nation's interest, a similar sect in southern Colorado is flourishing — and in fact some speculate that the tiny town of Westcliffe in southwest Colorado may become the next polygamist nerve center in the United States. A compound there already hosts an estimated 30 members of the breakaway Mormon sect, and an aide to jailed polygamist leader Warren Jeffs has already shelled out more than $1 million for nearly 200 acres of land nearby.

So far, Jeffs' aide, Lee Anthony Steed, has bought 35- and 40-acre plots, including two compound facilities. And Steed isn't done. According to the local sheriff, Steed is looking to purchase at least two other large properties, a move that has law enforcement officials concerned about a mushrooming polygamist community in their back yard. [/*]

A must read, both sites, to anyone interested in this case. They obviously have tons of money that they are shelling out until they find someplace that will leave them alone to marry off their underaged girls.

walton

06-24-2008, 12:35 AM

But I do wonder about those Allred boys. Do you suppose they are busy traveling to and fro? Maybe Winston has seen them in his travels.

Heck, who knows maybe they are hauling milk, or molasses or even furniture up to Winston. Do you think?

Nahh maybe not.

juliekan

06-24-2008, 12:42 AM

I was gone for a while, so this may have already been posted
http://blogs.sltrib.com/slcrawler/2008/06/whats-50-grand-between-friends.htm

Shurtleff taking donations from a guy his own office slapped with fraud charges.

walton

06-24-2008, 12:52 AM

From spirits last post on the link thread:

According to a Pueblo County Sheriff's Office report, deputies discovered paperwork indicating that Warren Jeffs and Annette *. Jeffs, presumably one of his wives, owe the Internal Revenue Service $69,000 in back taxes. Deputies found "several envelopes containing hundreds of business cards" from supporters throughout the country.

If Warren and "this" wife owe $69,000 in back taxes. Maybe he owes that much with each wife. Take that times 100 wives.

Yow!!

Hey Julie, I had read about that whole thing with Shurtleff and I never did understand the whole thing. Don't laugh but I know very little about the laws and politics. But is it against the law to take donations from those breaking the law?

Let's just say... not saying this is true or that this really happened but just saying.... if a guy was wanted by the FBI and went into hiding, but his organization was still making contributions to a politician could both the guy wanted by the FBI and the politician be in trouble?

Is accepting a donation from him a crime?

juliekan

06-24-2008, 12:56 AM

Originally posted by walton
From spirits last post on the link thread:

According to a Pueblo County Sheriff's Office report, deputies discovered paperwork indicating that Warren Jeffs and Annette *. Jeffs, presumably one of his wives, owe the Internal Revenue Service $69,000 in back taxes. Deputies found "several envelopes containing hundreds of business cards" from supporters throughout the country.

If Warren and "this" wife owe $69,000 in back taxes. Maybe he owes that much with each wife. Take that times 100 wives.

Yow!!

Hey Julie, I had read about that whole thing with Shurtleff and I never did understand the whole thing. Don't laugh but I know very little about the laws and politics. But is it against the law to take donations from those breaking the law?

Let's just say... not saying this is true or that this really happened but just saying.... if a guy was wanted by the FBI and went into hiding, but his organization was still making contributions to a politician could both the guy wanted by the FBI and the politician be in trouble?

Is accepting a donation from him a crime? [/*]

Naw, no crime, but makes you wonder why he didn't know the guy was doing illegal things...I mean HIS office was following it. Then I had the silly thought that if it was I, I would take the dirty guy's money and do something good with it, like a home for the lost boys.:biggrin: Which is what he did.

juliekan

06-24-2008, 01:00 AM

Originally posted by juliekan

Naw, no crime, but makes you wonder why he didn't know the guy was doing illegal things...I mean HIS office was following it. Then I had the silly thought that if it was I, I would take the dirty guy's money and do something good with it, like a home for the lost boys.:biggrin: Which is what he did. [/*]

OK, that's just my opinion, but it may be a prob with the money because if he's fraudulent, the government may want that money back?

walton

06-24-2008, 01:11 AM

Again this is a what if type scenario here.

If a drug dealer donated 50 grand to the local Sheriff at election time... it wouldn't be a crime for the drug dealer or for the Sheriff?

juliekan

06-24-2008, 01:16 AM

Originally posted by walton
Again this is a what if type scenario here.

If a drug dealer donated 50 grand to the local Sheriff at election time... it wouldn't be a crime for the drug dealer or for the Sheriff? [/*]
Yep, they'd want that money back.

KatyDid

06-24-2008, 09:09 AM

Originally posted by juliekan

Maybe they can relocate to Colorado? [/*]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...PLEASE!!!!!

CO LE are already watching the FLDS that are here. We don't need any more to add to the batch.

They won't be *hidden* in CO for much longer.

juliekan

06-24-2008, 10:37 AM

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/jun/24/attorney-sect-elder-drama-unfolds/

Attorney Sect Elder Drama Unfolds
"In a meeting between Malonis, Jessop, the girl and her mother, Annette Jeffs, Malonis in her affidavit said Jessop "told me (the girl) had to have an (attorney) who would forcefully advocate for the FLDS church and the FLDS lifestyle."

What happened to advocating for the girl?!

and

"If the hearing does take place, Malonis will be escorted by armed security from the state's AG office - assigned after at least one sect supporter sent her threatening e-mails over the weekend..."

lotty

06-24-2008, 10:50 AM

Originally posted by juliekan
http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/jun/24/attorney-sect-elder-drama-unfolds/

Attorney Sect Elder Drama Unfolds
"In a meeting between Malonis, Jessop, the girl and her mother, Annette Jeffs, Malonis in her affidavit said Jessop "told me (the girl) had to have an (attorney) who would forcefully advocate for the FLDS church and the FLDS lifestyle."

What happened to advocating for the girl?!

and

"If the hearing does take place, Malonis will be escorted by armed security from the state's AG office - assigned after at least one sect supporter sent her threatening e-mails over the weekend..." [/*]
I read this article this morning...:( I'm still at a loss for words.

juliekan

06-24-2008, 10:52 AM

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700237415,00.html?pg=1

Here's Deseret News take on the same hearing regarding the restraining order. Quite the different viewpoint than the last article. Interesting tidbit:

(Teresa, now we know her name)"Jeffs has been subpoenaed to testify Wednesday before a grand jury investigating crimes involving FLDS members. The Texas AG's Office said it could not find Jeffs to subpoena her..."
:eek:

juliekan

06-24-2008, 11:04 AM

And from Brooke Adams blog comes fldsdress.com. Yes, for those times you want to wear long underwear under your dress, or just be able to blend in with your local cult. Order now!;)

lotty

06-24-2008, 11:17 AM

Originally posted by juliekan
And from Brooke Adams blog comes fldsdress.com. Yes, for those times you want to wear long underwear under your dress, or just be able to blend in with your local cult. Order now!;) [/*]

It is almost all children's clothes. I wonder...

Mimi428

06-24-2008, 10:16 PM

http://www.sltrib.com/Polygamy/ci_9685005

A hearing on a temporary restraining order involving an FLDS teen is back under way, after an administrative judge rejected an attack on 51st District Judge Barbara Walther's impartiality.

...the hearing was temporarily halted after Annette Jeffs sought Walther's recusal. Her motion pointed out that security was placed around the judge's home after Texas law enforcement circulated dossiers that alleged Jessop was an enforcer for the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.
The motion questioned whether, given that security, Walther could be impartial in a case involving Jessop. Malonis alleges that the girl's push for a new attorney was due to coercion from Jessop.
But an administrative judge rejected the request as unfounded and untimely, and the hearing before Walther has resumed.

Sounds like Teresa needs to be away from her mother, too!

There is an old story about the guy who was found guilty of murdering both his parents. During the sentencing phase, he wanted the court to show him mercy - why? Because he was an orphan, of course!

That's exactly what this motion reminds me of - the FLDS is the reason the judge needed to be provided with security. They know they are the reason, yet they try to skirt around it by claiming that if the judge needs security, she can't be impartial.

I'm getting antsy wondering what the grand jury will hear about tomorrow & how long it will be before we hear of any arrests.

evalles

06-24-2008, 11:02 PM

There was a comment on the above article from the sltrb that included a supposed e-mail from Malonis to Teresa, I don't know where the poster got it.

If it's true, I think the attorney should recuse herself. IMO it sounds like she's threatening the girl, her mother and her siblings.

Now, she should be put back in a group home because of a letter she sent to the judge ?
Oh, and because she sent a letter to the judge requesting a new attorney, her mother should obviously lose her other children too ?
This is so inappropriate.

purportedly from an email from Malonis to the 16 year old girl:

Writing that letter to the Judge was about the most foolish thing you could have done. The Judge is now convinced that you are not able to make good decisions for yourself, and she is convinced also that your mother is not able to make proper decisions for you either Teresa, the Judge wants to take you back in custody and what's worse is that these poor choices may end up with your siblings back in custody if the Judge and CPS think your mother is not able to reign you in. The judge would probably not allow me to withdraw right now even if I requested it because the Judge sees me as the only person who is looking out for what is in your legal interests.

translation:
"Play ball, or I will bury you, you little ____!"

juliekan

06-25-2008, 01:01 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by evalles
There was a comment on the above article from the sltrb that included a supposed e-mail from Malonis to Teresa, I don't know where the poster got it.

<respectfully snipped>

Ok, lets not go to the "I don't know where the poster got it." Or the "a supposed e-mail from Malonis....". I post straight up with everyone on the board...good, bad, indifferent. So give me the links, like I give you the links if I have some info.

walton

06-25-2008, 01:16 AM

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/jun/24/restraining-order-gets-extended/

Jessop "has done absolutely nothing wrong," said Salt Lake City attorney Jim Bradshaw, who represents sect members in the case. "At great personal sacrifice, he's come down here to help the residents of the YFZ Ranch. There's nothing that he's done that is inappropriate or unethical."

The agreement sets another hearing in the matter for no later than Sept. 24, when the restraining order will again be reviewed.

Just what is Willies role with the FLDS? If the FLDS never viewed the "confession" of Warren why in the heck are they listening to Willie? Not that the "confession" revealed much anyway imo.

It is almost like someone pulled the plug and all of the rules according to this religion are swirling around in a toilet bowl.

This is just messed up.

Where is dear Warren the Fathers voice? If Warren is able to speak we should have heard something from him by now.

Some leader! heck some father!!

juliekan

06-25-2008, 01:23 AM

And I can't resist your quote, "Play ball, or I will bury you, you little ___________.

walton

06-25-2008, 01:27 AM

Originally posted by evalles
There was a comment on the above article from the sltrb that included a supposed e-mail from Malonis to Teresa, I don't know where the poster got it.

If it's true, I think the attorney should recuse herself. IMO it sounds like she's threatening the girl, her mother and her siblings.

Now, she should be put back in a group home because of a letter she sent to the judge ?
Oh, and because she sent a letter to the judge requesting a new attorney, her mother should obviously lose her other children too ?
This is so inappropriate.

purportedly from an email from Malonis to the 16 year old girl:

Writing that letter to the Judge was about the most foolish thing you could have done. The Judge is now convinced that you are not able to make good decisions for yourself, and she is convinced also that your mother is not able to make proper decisions for you either Teresa, the Judge wants to take you back in custody and what's worse is that these poor choices may end up with your siblings back in custody if the Judge and CPS think your mother is not able to reign you in. The judge would probably not allow me to withdraw right now even if I requested it because the Judge sees me as the only person who is looking out for what is in your legal interests.

translation:
"Play ball, or I will bury you, you little ____!" [/*]

evalles where did you get the above from?

I still couldn't get those links to work from the link thread and I wanna see what you were talking about.

Unless you've ever sat in a courtroom and had the "staredown" from someone who could hurt you ... you will never know exactly how those stares can hurt you deeply. jmo

walton

06-25-2008, 02:16 AM

evalles I got it.

Wow!!

What do you mean it cracked you up? Do you mean that it made you laugh?

Tell me it didn't make you laugh.

LLaFren

06-25-2008, 05:43 AM

I firmly believe it will all come out. Those of us who posted fast and furious during Warren Jeffs trial, remember the posters who came in defending him, claiming "witch hunt", those posters are never seen any more on these boards.

The same thing will happen here. The truth will come out and the posters who seem to believe everything the flds says, well, they'll find a new "witch hunt" to support and the truth will prevail.

Hey Walton? Who's got the keys to the bus?

LLaFren

06-25-2008, 07:19 AM

Originally posted by Bratlings

I certainly do not believe everything they say but I never claimed to anyway. Taking anything of any one persons, including their livelyhood, happiness and especially their children without substantial proof is just WRONG! On so many levels!!! And when and IF they prove any abuse other than polygamy I will gladly support their prosecution. Until then I will not jump on the hatred filled bandwagon that is all too eager to convict people on rumors, and your over active imagination that conveniently interprets things how you & others here want them to be. I am not a pretend patriot who picks and chooses what rights apply to certain people, I am the real thing and I support the US Constitution FULLY; for every person. [/*]

I don't recall quoting you, I don't think I mentioned you, I do believe that everything I've posted has had a viable link or is IMO. I find it very interesting that you took my post persoanlly and decided to attack my views.

I think somebody needs a time out.

edited for spelling

evalles

06-25-2008, 08:53 AM

Originally posted by Bratlings

Got it! Hypocritical rule # 852- It's only heresay when it is in defense of the FLDS, it is fact when it condemns them. :rolleyes: [/*]

:beer:

evalles

06-25-2008, 09:03 AM

Originally posted by juliekan
[QUOTE]Originally posted by evalles
There was a comment on the above article from the sltrb that included a supposed e-mail from Malonis to Teresa, I don't know where the poster got it.

<respectfully snipped>

Ok, lets not go to the "I don't know where the poster got it." Or the "a supposed e-mail from Malonis....". I post straight up with everyone on the board...good, bad, indifferent. So give me the links, like I give you the links if I have some info. [/*]

Someone posted it in a comment to an article that was posted by another member on this thread, maybe you?
I'm not going back through them, but if you do, you'll find it.

Roux

06-25-2008, 10:55 AM

Originally posted by evalles

Someone posted it in a comment to an article that was posted by another member on this thread, maybe you?
I'm not going back through them, but if you do, you'll find it. [/*]

I read this thread every day and I don't remember any such comment. In fact I just now scrolled back and didn't find anything. As far as an email from Malonis to Teresa, wouldn't the only person to release that would be the client, due to atty-client privilege?

Maybe the comment you were referring to came from one of those FLDS sites that you often link?

Roux

06-25-2008, 11:14 AM

Looking further, at the FLDS site Truth Will Prevail 6/25 there is indeed a paragraph quoting an email from Malonis to Teresa. That's the only place I've ever seen it quoted.

Roux

06-25-2008, 11:31 AM

Originally posted by Imperfect

I'm taking that whole 'Truth Will Prevail' moniker with a great big salt shaker. [/*]

Laughable isn't it? The truth will indeed prevail, and it won't be because of their lies and spin.

Mimi428

06-25-2008, 11:33 AM

Originally posted by evalles

Someone posted it in a comment to an article that was posted by another member on this thread, maybe you?
I'm not going back through them, but if you do, you'll find it. [/*]

Although this case is fairly quiet at the moment, I think there is every likelihood that it will 'heat up' again. I can appreciate that you wish to spend your free time with your children rather than on a message board. I know we do not see this issue from the same eyes, nor through the same lenses, but I do believe your interest is sincere. If it is, in fact, sincere - please familiarize yourself on the general rules that we are all expected to follow - which is that if you state something as factual, that it exists, that it was on another website - the burden is on you to provide the link to that website.

If what you write is simply your opinion, so be it. Others may disagree with your opinion, but everyone is allowed to post their opinion as long as it does not violate the TOS. When it comes to saying "this was on another website" - & certainly when you have done what appears to be a copy & paste - you ARE expected to provide the link.

I'm not telling you this to 'be the boss of you' - I've just been here for a pretty long time & I think I have a fairly good notion of what will & won't be tolerated. Word to the wise, etc.

JMO

Mimi428

06-25-2008, 11:42 AM

Originally posted by Roux
Looking further, at the FLDS site Truth Will Prevail 6/25 there is indeed a paragraph quoting an email from Malonis to Teresa. That's the only place I've ever seen it quoted. [/*]

And here's the link to it -

http://www.truthwillprevail.org/

It's about 2/3rds down the page right now.

I have to wonder who exactly they think they are fooling. I can only surmise that a person would have to be incredibly naive & have never received correspondence from an attorney, if they think they write like that.

That's as sloppy, unprofessional & ridiculous as the letter from the 'doctor'. PT Barnum must be laughing out loud somewhere - he sure had it right when he remarked that there is a sucker born every minute, IMO.

Mimi428

06-25-2008, 11:54 AM

Originally posted by Imperfect
Mimi,

Thanks for that. If a piece of information is important or interesting enough to reference, then it should be important enough to link to. Telling the rest of us to 'go find it ourselves' doesn't cut it. IMO. [/*]

You are very welcome. I have seen near all-out war break out over stuff like that & it has often resulted in one person or another having their access to the board denied. (yes, the moderator can do that). I have to assume that if someone is interested enough to post here, they are also interested enough in having their posts remain. In the worst case scenarios, I have seen posters banned & every one of their posts erased.

Walton - you must forever be on your very best behavior! :D
If we lost your posts, we would lose links that provide so much background - as well as so much current news.

On that note - I implore everyone, no matter their position or opinion about this story - to step away from the keyboard should you feel you are about to post something that you may regret later. If you have done any searching, if you have found stories & provided links - surely you do not want your prior efforts to be swept right out the door. If it gets really heated around here, we will have folks who will deliberately bait you just so that will happen to your posts & links - then they will come back & swear your info never existed - or was never valid in the first place. (they're sneaky like that).

JMO - from a veteran of a more than a couple of boards in which the subject infuriated one side & the other.

:patriot:

Roux

06-25-2008, 12:08 PM

Originally posted by Mimi428

Convenient hit & run.
:chicken:

Sorry, I'm not buying that information about the state of her virginity. That is NOT the sort of information that is disseminated to the public.

JMO [/*]

After more reading at http://www.truthwillprevail.org, I see where evalles go that info. Check out the posting by Naiah on 6/21...claims Teresa has been to gynecologist and she is a virgin. Who but FLDS trying to defend their position would post such intimate details about a 16 yr old?

juliekan

06-25-2008, 12:52 PM

Originally posted by Mimi428

You are very welcome. I have seen near all-out war break out over stuff like that & it has often resulted in one person or another having their access to the board denied. (yes, the moderator can do that). I have to assume that if someone is interested enough to post here, they are also interested enough in having their posts remain. In the worst case scenarios, I have seen posters banned & every one of their posts erased.

Walton - you must forever be on your very best behavior! :D
If we lost your posts, we would lose links that provide so much background - as well as so much current news.

On that note - I implore everyone, no matter their position or opinion about this story - to step away from the keyboard should you feel you are about to post something that you may regret later. If you have done any searching, if you have found stories & provided links - surely you do not want your prior efforts to be swept right out the door. If it gets really heated around here, we will have folks who will deliberately bait you just so that will happen to your posts & links - then they will come back & swear your info never existed - or was never valid in the first place. (they're sneaky like that).

JMO - from a veteran of a more than a couple of boards in which the subject infuriated one side & the other.

:patriot: [/*]
thank you for the nice reminder Mimi.
I want to quote a poster with the nic Anonymous at texaspolygamy.blogspot.com

"Never argue with a fool. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."

Mimi428

06-25-2008, 12:52 PM

Originally posted by Roux

After more reading at http://www.truthwillprevail.org, I see where evalles go that info. Check out the posting by Naiah on 6/21...claims Teresa has been to gynecologist and she is a virgin. Who but FLDS trying to defend their position would post such intimate details about a 16 yr old? [/*]

No kidding!

All of them are expected to be immediately obedient. They are lied to all their lives, they are expected to lie to others (even among themselves). I think a whole lot of them have lost - or never developed the capacity for critical thinking. They are told what to believe & what to think. If tomorrow comes & the truth changes, they aren't supposed to think or wonder or ask why, they are just supposed to accept it.

I guess it really isn't surprising to realize that they may not have any real concept of how to present something persuasively - they have lived all their lives being told 'this is it, believe it' no matter how preposterous the subject matter is- so perhaps they think that the rest of the world gets information in the way it has always been delivered to them.

Whatever the root causes, I think the implications are frightening. They will lie with impunity if they are told to do so - & in court that can have some terrible consequences. For those who may eventually leave - they leave without the skills necessary to survive in the outside world - they will be vulnerable to anyone (especially a male) who makes strong declarations, who gives orders, who is willing to tell others what to do, how to do it, etc.

JMO

Mimi428

06-25-2008, 12:57 PM

Originally posted by Imperfect

And isn't it swell that the FLDS sees fit to release the most intimate details of a young girl's situation, while at the same time keeping the whereabouts of their male leadership under wraps?

[/*]

Hear, hear.

Nutshell!

:beer:

I have such trepidation about the grand jury meeting today. I have some real fears that there will be women who may eventually end up being charged with lying, obstruction - stuff like that - while the men keep themselves hidden away.

evalles

06-25-2008, 02:59 PM

Originally posted by Mimi428

Although this case is fairly quiet at the moment, I think there is every likelihood that it will 'heat up' again. I can appreciate that you wish to spend your free time with your children rather than on a message board. I know we do not see this issue from the same eyes, nor through the same lenses, but I do believe your interest is sincere. If it is, in fact, sincere - please familiarize yourself on the general rules that we are all expected to follow - which is that if you state something as factual, that it exists, that it was on another website - the burden is on you to provide the link to that website.

If what you write is simply your opinion, so be it. Others may disagree with your opinion, but everyone is allowed to post their opinion as long as it does not violate the TOS. When it comes to saying "this was on another website" - & certainly when you have done what appears to be a copy & paste - you ARE expected to provide the link.

I'm not telling you this to 'be the boss of you' - I've just been here for a pretty long time & I think I have a fairly good notion of what will & won't be tolerated. Word to the wise, etc.

JMO [/*]

I clicked on a link that was already provided by a member of this board. It's already on this thread.
I read the comments on the article. There were hundreds of comments and I don't have the time to go over all the comments (I was skipping around when I found it and I specifically said "if this is true). I don't know of any way to determine if an e-mail msg is legit. I'm sure the authorities or the receiver of the e-mail can tell, but I can't.
I didn't find the 'e-mail' on the FLDS site, but I saw it there last night.

So, I never said it was fact, if I had I would have provided a link.

Mimi428

06-25-2008, 04:21 PM

Originally posted by evalles

So, I never said it was fact, if I had I would have provided a link. [/*]

You asserted that it DID exist on another website! Your post started this way -

purportedly from an email from Malonis to the 16 year old girl:

Writing that letter to the Judge was about the most foolish thing you could have done.

I know you could not have written out all of that by memory - that it was a copy & paste. When you do that, YOU are responsible for providing the link. The exceptions are for situations where the a link has been provided, the contents have been discussed & a member can use the search function to find the prior discussion.

But carry on with your bad self. You surely don't have any obligation to believe what I'm trying to tell you. Good luck when you meet up with others who have neither the patience nor the inclination to offer you friendly advice - cuz in my experience those sorts typically complain to the moderator w/o letting you know in advance they have a problem with what you are posting.

JMO

walton

06-25-2008, 04:37 PM

walton

06-25-2008, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by Imperfect

Lying seems to be as much a part of their culture as the baby making and the outfits and the rest. They're so accustomed to twisting the truth, and to having their own members believe whatever lies the leadership puts out, that they think the rest of us are part of the same belief system. IMO.

This lying thing is pernicious and can't be overstated. When an entire way of life is built on a foundation that not only tolerates but actually promotes lying, then at some point, virtually anything goes. I think they're rapidly reaching that point. IMO. [/*]

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9689841?source=rv

An Arizona investigator also has gathered Utah birth certificates for use by Texas officials, according to Jeff Duncan, director of the Utah Office of Vital Statistics.
But the women's testimony is expected to be key -- if they give it. FLDS spokesman Willie Jessop said the women called as witnesses are being asked to choose between their children and their husbands, their freedom and their faith.

Willie needs a time out. Like about 15 years imo.

Mimi428

06-25-2008, 05:12 PM

Originally posted by walton

But the women's testimony is expected to be key -- if they give it. FLDS spokesman Willie Jessop said the women called as witnesses are being asked to choose between their children and their husbands, their freedom and their faith.
[/*]

<snipped>

Thanks for posting that link, walton - much appreciated.

I hope I am wrong in thinking that Willie may be sending out a signal indicating the women will go to jail rather than testify. That remark about being made to choose between "their freedom and their faith" concerns me.

JMO

Mimi428

06-25-2008, 05:20 PM

Here's another story about today's grand jury meeting -

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iIdMpRHjN4hpNKBhfYyAsR4DDo4QD91HAQQ80

Noticed this part -

The main square in Eldorado was cordoned off with yellow police tape. A sheriff's department worker snapped photos of anyone who stood by or attempted to talk to sect members who arrived at the courthouse Wednesday and may be grand jury witnesses.

walton

06-25-2008, 05:39 PM

Originally posted by Mimi428

<snipped>

Thanks for posting that link, walton - much appreciated.

I hope I am wrong in thinking that Willie may be sending out a signal indicating the women will go to jail rather than testify. That remark about being made to choose between "their freedom and their faith" concerns me.

JMO [/*]

Me too mimi.

IMO this is a form of intimidation. I think the link that evalles brought over show the other forms of intimidation that Willie uses to intimidate people.

Yup. 15 years sound about right. imo

Mimi428

06-25-2008, 05:53 PM

One of my fears is that the grand jury cannot be given all the information in one setting - that they will have to re-convene several times. If that is so, then I expect every FLDS female who has to appear will run right back & tell Willie & the rest EVERY question she was asked.

Willie & any of the others he is in contact with would be tipped off as to the identities of the men the grand jury is hearing about. That would give them all the more time to get out of town, the state, the country.

I have no idea how they will handle any of the women if they refuse to answer. But part of me hopes that if the grand jury is met with a person who refuses to answer that the person will be remanded to jail until the end of the grand jury proceedings.

My other hope is that the grand jury will quickly bring charges against Willie & he will be arrested.

LLaFren

06-25-2008, 07:49 PM

argh....

I feel like Charlie Brown...What happened today? What did I miss?

did anything come out in the Grand jury hearing?

I'm going to go read upthread now....

Roux

06-25-2008, 08:10 PM

Originally posted by walton

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9689841?source=rv

An Arizona investigator also has gathered Utah birth certificates for use by Texas officials, according to Jeff Duncan, director of the Utah Office of Vital Statistics.
But the women's testimony is expected to be key -- if they give it. FLDS spokesman Willie Jessop said the women called as witnesses are being asked to choose between their children and their husbands, their freedom and their faith.

Willie needs a time out. Like about 15 years imo. [/*]

Guess I am obtuse but someone explain to me please:

If the FLDS have done no wrong, have nothing to hide, then how can simply telling the truth cause them to have to choose between their children, husbands, freedom, faith.

evalles

06-25-2008, 08:27 PM

Originally posted by walton
evalles I got it.

Wow!!

What do you mean it cracked you up? Do you mean that it made you laugh?

Tell me it didn't make you laugh. [/*]

Walton,

I admit that I found parts of the PI's affidavit amusing.

He's following Warren and Willie's following him.
He finds being followed intimidating.

evalles

06-25-2008, 10:12 PM

Originally posted by Mimi428

You asserted that it DID exist on another website! Your post started this way -

purportedly from an email from Malonis to the 16 year old girl:

Writing that letter to the Judge was about the most foolish thing you could have done.

I know you could not have written out all of that by memory - that it was a copy & paste. When you do that, YOU are responsible for providing the link. The exceptions are for situations where the a link has been provided, the contents have been discussed & a member can use the search function to find the prior discussion.

But carry on with your bad self. You surely don't have any obligation to believe what I'm trying to tell you. Good luck when you meet up with others who have neither the patience nor the inclination to offer you friendly advice - cuz in my experience those sorts typically complain to the moderator w/o letting you know in advance they have a problem with what you are posting.

JMO [/*]

No , it didn't start that way :

There was a comment on the above article from the sltrb that included a supposed e-mail from Malonis to Teresa, I don't know where the poster got it.

I checked the comments on the sltrb article and there are 66 pages, I was skipping aroung on my lunch break, and my break ended.
I posted it because I figured someone on here had probably already seen it and could provide more info and because I didn't want to lose track of it.

I said it was a supposed e-mail and never claimed it was valid because I didn't know. I figured by the time I got off work the posters on this thread would know everything there was to know about it. Maybe something that would or wouldn't validate it.

The posters on the sltrb are meaner than I've ever seen on these boards.... So far anyway.

walton

06-25-2008, 11:38 PM

Originally posted by evalles

Walton,

I admit that I found parts of the PI's affidavit amusing.

He's following Warren and Willie's following him.
He finds being followed intimidating. [/*]

Gotcha. Thanks for explaining that.

My jaw hit the floor when I read that Willie got into a confrontation with the producer of a news show.

Then trying to run Sam Brower off the road is another eye opener.

:eek:

walton

06-25-2008, 11:46 PM

Originally posted by Imperfect

Willie seems to have 3 different acts he puts on for us 'outsiders':

1. He trots out the religious persecution sympathy card because it has worked in the past.

2. He drops into his blustering Intimidating Bully persona.

3. He just flat out fabricates things as he goes along. (Part of the cult-ure, as it were.)

But nothing he does is necessarily fitting for the situation or logical in any way, so if you're trying to connect the dots, don't bother.

These people weren't taught critical thinking. They're robots. It's comical, in a way. Big Willie can't even use his tried and true techniques effectively with the outside world, and he's too brainwashed himself to figure out what he's doing wrong.

Too bad the same can't be said for his impact on 16 year-old sect members.

IMO. [/*]

ol' Willie knows exactly what he is doing. Some of the different things poor ol' Willie has had to face is that he doesn't have the backing of those good ol' boys from back home. The LE that turned the other cheek whenever he pulled crap like this.

As I've said before Willie has friends in low places. jmo

Willie speaks for the FLDS when he has no position to do so.
Rod Parker speaks on Willies behalf when he is supposedly a lawyer for the FLDS Church. Who is paying Parker?

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3614816

FLDS spokesman Rod Parker says he hopes the children won't be victimized in the process. "I have always believed that we would move into this second phase, and I guess what I'm hoping is that Texas authorities don't have their egos so wrapped up in what they're doing that they let their egos get ahead of their common sense," he said.

There have been some media reports that many FLDS men have vanished because they're worried about criminal charges. But Parker disputed those reports, saying he's been in touch with them.

sidenote: Thank you Imperfect. I was touched by your gesture and words. :rose:

walton

06-25-2008, 11:51 PM

Originally posted by grammybear
I expect that the grand jury will take more then one meeting to resolve all of this. I am sure that Willie has intiminating a lof of these women and children. I guess only time will tell and yes I do think dna is going to answer a lot of questions.

IMO this group should just figure it out that the outside world does know all about this group. They are toast as far as I am concerned. They have been pulling this crap all over the place and it is time they started to answer for what they have done.

jmoo [/*]

I agree grammybear. The curtains have been pulled aside and those that have stood by and watched all this go on are gonna have to held accountable.

Then next meeting will be July 22. I would think that there are going to be some indictments handed out at that time. I am sure they have loads of paperwork to go thru in the next few weeks. jmo

walton

06-25-2008, 11:59 PM

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9689841

Teresa Jeffs, the last of seven FLDS witnesses summoned to testify before a Texas grand jury today, left the courthouse this afternoon after spending about 40 minutes in the building.
Alan Futrell, a criminal attorney representing Jeffs, the 16-year-old daughter of polygamous sect leader Warren S. Jeffs, said the jury would meet again July 22. It was unknown what other witnesses may have been called to testify today.

check out Brookes blog. She has some info concerning grand juries and the procedures. It is under the title Waiting Game continues:

http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/

I'd like to copy and paste the part about the grandjury stuff but I don't know if I am allowed.

Mimi428

06-26-2008, 12:56 AM

Originally posted by walton

check out Brookes blog. She has some info concerning grand juries and the procedures. It is under the title Waiting Game continues:
[/*]

Thanks for that info, walton.

The Texas Code can be found other places besides that blog - here is one website with it -

http://law.justia.com/texas/codes/cr/001.00.000020.00.html

Art. 20.15. [387] [438] [426] WHEN WITNESS REFUSES TO
TESTIFY. When a witness, brought in any manner before a grand
jury, refuses to testify, such fact shall be made known to the
attorney representing the State or to the court; and the court may
compel the witness to answer the question, if it appear to be a
proper one, by imposing a fine not exceeding five hundred dollars,
and by committing the party to jail until he is willing to testify.

Acts 1965, 59th Leg., vol. 2, p. 317, ch. 722, eff. Jan. 1, 1966.

I was thinking earlier that there was an option for sending a person to jail until they decided to answer, but it was so long ago that I heard about it that I just didn't have any certainty that it was still that way.

Bottom line - they cannot refuse to answer questions unless it is a situation where they could rightfully claim their 5th amendment rights against self-incrimination.

Since we have heard about the birth certificates being brought to Texas, I am wondering if the women are simply going to be questioned as to their actual identities, their true ages & the identities & true ages of their children.

Who knows?

It's a long 4 weeks until the next session, that's for sure.

walton

06-26-2008, 02:53 AM

Originally posted by Mimi428

Thanks for that info, walton.

The Texas Code can be found other places besides that blog - here is one website with it -

http://law.justia.com/texas/codes/cr/001.00.000020.00.html

Art. 20.15. [387] [438] [426] WHEN WITNESS REFUSES TO
TESTIFY. When a witness, brought in any manner before a grand
jury, refuses to testify, such fact shall be made known to the
attorney representing the State or to the court; and the court may
compel the witness to answer the question, if it appear to be a
proper one, by imposing a fine not exceeding five hundred dollars,
and by committing the party to jail until he is willing to testify.

Acts 1965, 59th Leg., vol. 2, p. 317, ch. 722, eff. Jan. 1, 1966.

I was thinking earlier that there was an option for sending a person to jail until they decided to answer, but it was so long ago that I heard about it that I just didn't have any certainty that it was still that way.

Bottom line - they cannot refuse to answer questions unless it is a situation where they could rightfully claim their 5th amendment rights against self-incrimination.

Since we have heard about the birth certificates being brought to Texas, I am wondering if the women are simply going to be questioned as to their actual identities, their true ages & the identities & true ages of their children.

Who knows?

It's a long 4 weeks until the next session, that's for sure. [/*]

Thanks for that link. I saved it for future ref. What if they plead the 5th all the way thru?

Can you imagine the amount of pressure these people must be feeling? To see not only the Judge come in under guarded security but a lawyer who is defending a child. Man oh man. If that isn't going to leave some kind of impression.

How do they pick the jurors? Random? Do they get to call experts in on any questions they might have about any documents?

Can you imagine not having any background on the FLDS and be asked to make a decision in 4 weeks? :eek: My brain would be overloaded bigtime.

I know it said in one article that Annette Jeffs was also raising her sister Barbaras kids. So both sisters were married to Warren. Barbara is the one who had died.

After this whole grand jury thing is over will they give the info to the public or will it be under wraps forever? I know some of it we can piece together by the arrests and charges that can be brought about.

juliekan

06-26-2008, 11:10 AM

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_9685005

Malonis was prepared to present more evidence about why she wants Jeff's mother to keep the girl away from Jessop, including apparently e-mails they exchanged. But, as urged by Walther, attorneys avoided a hearing by negotiating an agreement that extends a restraining order issued Friday for another 90 days.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/jun/24/restraining-order-gets-extended/

Almost immediately after resuming the restraining order hearing, however, proceedings stopped again, as Malonis sought to introduce evidence she wanted sealed from the public. Walther dismisssed the courtroom to review the documents with the case's attorneys commencing a two-hour wait during which the judge admonished them to reach an agreement. "Sometimes that just happens," Edwards said of the sudden agreement after more than a day of failed negotiations.

What evidence of Willie Jessop's involvement did Malonis have that caused Edwards to capitulate and agree to a 90 day extension of the restraining order? Doesn't sound like Malonis was fearful of anything SHE has done or written being brought to light. Unlike Willie and his lawyer. IMO

Mimi428

06-26-2008, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by juliekan

What evidence of Willie Jessop's involvement did Malonis have that caused Edwards to capitulate and agree to a 90 day extension of the restraining order? Doesn't sound like Malonis was fearful of anything SHE has done or written being brought to light. Unlike Willie and his lawyer. IMO [/*]

<snipped>

I agree, it sure doesn't sound like Malonis had any reason to back down, back off, slow down, change directions or do anything other than what she set out to do. I have to wonder what she showed the judge after the courtroom was cleared. I'm taking a guess that it involved things that Edwards did not want to be put on the record at this time, in a public hearing.

I'm glad the extension of the restraining order is for 90 days - maybe between now & the 24th of September Willie will be constrained enough to limit his influence.

OTOH, who am I kidding?! I doubt the judge's order will stop Willie from his appointed rounds. If he can't directly contact Annette & her daughter, he'll find somebody else to do it for him. And I wouldn't put it past him to contact them himself.

JMO

juliekan

06-26-2008, 12:42 PM

Originally posted by Mimi428

<snipped>

OTOH, who am I kidding?! I doubt the judge's order will stop Willie from his appointed rounds. If he can't directly contact Annette & her daughter, he'll find somebody else to do it for him. And I wouldn't put it past him to contact them himself.

JMO [/*]

Considering the FLDS has already thumbed their noses at many other laws, I doubt Willie would even consider NOT staying in contact with Annette and her daughter. Sic Brower on him again...and catch Willie in the act

spirit07

06-26-2008, 01:19 PM

walton

06-26-2008, 05:38 PM

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700237986,00.html

San Antonio attorney Alan Futrell was with Jeffs outside the courthouse Wednesday and said he now represents her on criminal matters. Futrell said it was his understanding that the grand jury would reconvene on July 22. He also said law enforcers were very fair with his client and the other FLDS women Wednesday and treated them compassion.

Which Jeffs is he representing on "criminal matters" ? Annette the mom or Theresa Warrens daughter? And what are the criminal matters?

walton

06-26-2008, 05:45 PM

Originally posted by juliekan
http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_9685005

Malonis was prepared to present more evidence about why she wants Jeff's mother to keep the girl away from Jessop, including apparently e-mails they exchanged. But, as urged by Walther, attorneys avoided a hearing by negotiating an agreement that extends a restraining order issued Friday for another 90 days.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/jun/24/restraining-order-gets-extended/

Almost immediately after resuming the restraining order hearing, however, proceedings stopped again, as Malonis sought to introduce evidence she wanted sealed from the public. Walther dismisssed the courtroom to review the documents with the case's attorneys commencing a two-hour wait during which the judge admonished them to reach an agreement. "Sometimes that just happens," Edwards said of the sudden agreement after more than a day of failed negotiations.

What evidence of Willie Jessop's involvement did Malonis have that caused Edwards to capitulate and agree to a 90 day extension of the restraining order? Doesn't sound like Malonis was fearful of anything SHE has done or written being brought to light. Unlike Willie and his lawyer. IMO [/*]

Check out the entry titled TRO extended for 90 days against King Willie Jessop: http://coramnonjudice.blogspot.com/

interesting

LLaFren

06-26-2008, 07:28 PM

Originally posted by walton

Check out the entry titled TRO extended for 90 days against King Willie Jessop: http://coramnonjudice.blogspot.com/

interesting [/*]

Wow:eek: just wow:read:

evalles

06-26-2008, 08:01 PM

Doesn't sound like Malonis was fearful of anything SHE has done or written being brought to light. Unlike Willie and his lawyer. IMO [/*]

Then why was she the one that requested the court be closed to the public ??

evalles

06-26-2008, 08:14 PM

Originally posted by walton

Gotcha. Thanks for explaining that.

My jaw hit the floor when I read that Willie got into a confrontation with the producer of a news show.

Then trying to run Sam Brower off the road is another eye opener.

:eek: [/*]

I was disturbed by his attack on a member of the media also.
I'm assuming that this person was a non-biased party w/ no reason to lie or exaggerate.

As far as Sam Brower, he is biased, so I take his statement with a grain of salt.
I would feel the same way if it was Willie talking about Brower.
They don't like each other and IMO both are capable of 'overplaying' the details when it comes to the other.

evalles

06-26-2008, 08:16 PM

Originally posted by spirit07

Thanks for the news/links. Yeah, I'd like to know that evidence also! Glad to see Willie didn't get away with his bullying, lying about his involvement, and (of course, the status quo) accusing someone else of wrongdoing. [/*]

I think you should be able to see the evidence also, why didn't Malonis want it made public ?

LLaFren

06-26-2008, 08:26 PM

Originally posted by evalles

I think you should be able to see the evidence also, why didn't Malonis want it made public ? [/*]

ummm, maybe because it dealt with a minor child?

JMO

edited for spelling:D

evalles

06-26-2008, 08:42 PM

Originally posted by LLaFren

ummm, maybe because it dealt with a minor child?

JMO

edited for spelling:D [/*]

This case is for a restraining order against an adult.

I don't understand the posts that claim that Jessop's attorney had something to hide, when Malonis was the one that wanted to go behind closed doors.
:shrug:

evalles

06-26-2008, 09:13 PM

Guys, this isn't good.

On Bill Medvecky's site Free the FLDS children, he says there's a six month old that's in bad shape.

http://www.flds.ws/

A link to description of this medical disorder.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol6no6/fisman.htm

I hope CPS decides to help this family instead of destroying it.
These parents need to be focused on this baby and not on what CPS might be planning.
You know that if CPS determines that the other children are being 'neglected' because of the extra attention required by this sick child, they can take them.

I also found out from a foster dad that when a child that's a ward of the state dies, he's no longer a ward of the state so they won't pay for the funeral.

How nice. "Now that he's dead, you can have him back."
I don't see how some people live with themselves.

evalles

06-26-2008, 09:16 PM

Originally posted by grammybear

If I understand thing clearly it dealt with a minor and was of a sensitive nature to the girl. I think Malonis has done everything in her power to protect this girl. I am sure she has been threatened and therefore the guards. It sounds like to me she is taking this situation very seriously and is upholding her oath to protect this girl. Tereesa may not want her protection but in the eyes of the court this girl is still a minor and does not have the right to demand another attorney.

I also think the FLDS thinks that all attorneys should be on their side the adults not the children.

jmoo [/*]

Telling anybody that would listen that this girl was sexually abused and had a child was hardly "protecting" the child.

evalles

06-26-2008, 10:07 PM

Originally posted by grammybear
I do not think you understood my post. The evidene Malonis had when she asked for an extented tro speaks volumes to me. I believe that whatever information she had needed to be brought to the judges attention because of the evidence. I know there were allegations brought out in the begining but what I am talking about is new information not the old information. So it is my attention that this new information that reasons that the judge needed to clear the court because of privacy issues.
I also think it is very telling that the attorney for the FLDS was against the tro until he saw this new information. I believe that the attorney knew he had no other choice but to agree once he found out what the evidence.

I try to think on all sides before I make a statement and I think also because I have lived a lonhg time it helps me to understand issues even if the attorney says it does happen. I think there had to be something there to agree to the tro.

jmoo [/*]

Maybe. Or maybe the FLDS attorney knew he'd look like a jerk if he didn't agree, if it was really to protect the child.

What justifies Malonis speaking publicly about her minor client ?

Teresa has a GAL and she has Malonis. The GAL is supposed to advocate for what she feels is in the child's best interests, even if it's contrary to the child's wishes.
The other attorney is supposed to advocate for what Teresa wants even if the attorney doesn't agree.

This isn't happening.

evalles

06-26-2008, 10:32 PM

This seems to sum up things for Teresa:

"What can I say," she replied, staring at the ceiling, "except that I'm sick of everything."

Maybe she's not brainwashed, just really sick of everything.

While we're talking about it, she's living it, and it sounds exhausting.

Roux

06-26-2008, 10:41 PM

Originally posted by evalles

Telling anybody that would listen that this girl was sexually abused and had a child was hardly "protecting" the child. [/*]

IIRC Malonis stated that before Teresa's full identity had been revealed.

Anyway FLDS are revealing intimate details as well. Did you see Naiah's article on 6/21 at www.truthwillprevail.org? It is stated that Teresa "has been to a gynecologist and she is a virgin."

evalles

06-26-2008, 10:44 PM

Teresa sounds like a very interesting girl.

http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/1451318/jury_hears_flds_witnesses/index.html?source=r_science

Jeffs, who was the last FLDS member to be called inside Wednesday, tried to kill time at one point by climbing one of the large trees on the courthouse square in her dark blue prairie-style dress. She got as high as the third story courthouse window when the sheriff encouraged her to climb down.

I wonder if tree climbing was part of the FLDS brainwashing regimen.

If she's lived her life in fear, it obviously wasn't of heights.

evalles

06-26-2008, 10:50 PM

Originally posted by Roux

IIRC Malonis stated that before Teresa's full identity had been revealed.

Anyway FLDS are revealing intimate details as well. Did you see Naiah's article on 6/21 at www.truthwillprevail.org? It is stated that Teresa "has been to a gynecologist and she is a virgin." [/*]

Natalie Malonis has a legal obligation to her client and can be disbarred for discussing confidential info about her client.

There's no indication that the person who said she was a virgin (which IMO is better than saying that at 16 she had a baby by an older man) had any legal obligation to keep that information a secret.

The whole world knows now, thanks to Malonis.

evalles

06-26-2008, 10:57 PM

Sorry if this was already posted.

Motion to Recuse Judge Walther

http://web.gosanangelo.com/pdf/judgeremoved.pdf

evalles

06-26-2008, 11:02 PM

Originally posted by Imperfect

I read that, too, in two separate accounts and found it very curious.

I can't imagine there would be anything less seemly that for a young woman of the sect to be climbing trees in a dress. Doesn't sound like she's 'keeping sweet.'

Bet Malonis gets blamed for that, too. [/*]

I doubt it, she sounds like an expert tree climber, which means she was likely allowed to do it frequently as a child.

Wow, kids can actually live and find things to do without a bunch of expensive toys.

I need to tell my kids, but I'm not sure they'll believe me.
Was there life before WII and playstation ?
Not according to my 8 year old.

Roux

06-26-2008, 11:04 PM

Originally posted by evalles

Natalie Malonis has a legal obligation to her client and can be disbarred for discussing confidential info about her client.

There's no indication that the person who said she was a virgin (which IMO is better than saying that at 16 she had a baby by an older man) had any legal obligation to keep that information a secret.

The whole world knows now, thanks to Malonis. [/*]

Didn't Willie, Parker, et al put out emails and make comments regarding the whole situation? That email from Malonis to Teresa (which I am doubtful of) wasn't made public by Malonis. The FLDS published it. IMO Malonis wasn't responsible for betraying any atty/client privilege.

Upthread you were criticizing Malonis because she wanted something kept from the public and the courtroom was cleared by Judge Walther. So no matter what she does, it's wrong.

You have shared your personal experiences with us about your daughter when she was a teen, so surely you understand that girls of that age can be difficult. I feel sorry for Teresa because I believe she's a pawn and is being used by the FLDS.

evalles

06-26-2008, 11:05 PM

Originally posted by Imperfect

IIRC, that motion was ground into dust rather quickly. [/*]

Yeah, by another district court judge.

Do you really think this judge can ever be non-biased ?

Because regardless of our biases, as a judge is supposed to remain neutral.

What's wrong with appointing a new judge ?

Roux

06-26-2008, 11:13 PM

Originally posted by evalles

Yeah, by another district court judge.

Do you really think this judge can ever be non-biased ?

Because regardless of our biases, as a judge is supposed to remain neutral.

What's wrong with appointing a new judge ? [/*]

I find it quite offensive that Medvecky guy you read has a picture of Judge Walther with the caption "The Gestapo." That's inflammatory and is totally unnecessary.

Why are you so certain she is biased? Just because you didn't like the decisions she made? None of us have seen everything the judge saw.

evalles

06-26-2008, 11:23 PM

Originally posted by Roux

Didn't Willie, Parker, et al put out emails and make comments regarding the whole situation? That email from Malonis to Teresa (which I am doubtful of) wasn't made public by Malonis. The FLDS published it. IMO Malonis wasn't responsible for betraying any atty/client privilege.

Upthread you were criticizing Malonis because she wanted something kept from the public and the courtroom was cleared by Judge Walther. So no matter what she does, it's wrong.

You have shared your personal experiences with us about your daughter when she was a teen, so surely you understand that girls of that age can be difficult. I feel sorry for Teresa because I believe she's a pawn and is being used by the FLDS. [/*]

I read more about the restraining order and it was to make sure Annette kept Willie away from Teresa.
Wait a minute, Malonis didn't want to keep it from the public.
Walthers told them to come an agreement. The attorney for the FLDS has to know that it's impossible for him to win in Walther's courtroom, the law doesn't matter there. Which would explain why he agreed to an extension.

Malonis was prepared to present more evidence about why she wants Jeffs's mother to keep the girl away from Jessop, including apparently e-mails they exchanged. But, as urged by Walther, attorneys avoided a hearing by negotiating an agreement that extends a restraining order issued Friday for another 90 days.

urged by Walther are the key words here.

Malonis's false assertions that Teresa had a child and was a victim of sexual abuse betrayed the atty/client privelege.

Would you want the world to know that at 16 ?

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_9685005

evalles

06-26-2008, 11:26 PM

evalles

06-26-2008, 11:28 PM

Originally posted by Imperfect

I never thought the judge was biased.

IMO, this is Walther's situation to resolve. She's entitled to see it through to the end. [/*]

One of her 'resolutions' was deemed a discretion of her authority by a higher court.

Roux

06-26-2008, 11:43 PM

Originally posted by evalles

I read more about the restraining order and it was to make sure Annette kept Willie away from Teresa.
Wait a minute, Malonis didn't want to keep it from the public.
Walthers told them to come an agreement. The attorney for the FLDS has to know that it's impossible for him to win in Walther's courtroom, the law doesn't matter there. Which would explain why he agreed to an extension.

Malonis was prepared to present more evidence about why she wants Jeffs's mother to keep the girl away from Jessop, including apparently e-mails they exchanged. But, as urged by Walther, attorneys avoided a hearing by negotiating an agreement that extends a restraining order issued Friday for another 90 days.

urged by Walther are the key words here.

Malonis's false assertions that Teresa had a child and was a victim of sexual abuse betrayed the atty/client privelege.

Would you want the world to know that at 16 ?

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_9685005 [/*]

I agree that the original belief that Teresa had a child is troubling, but no doubt the confusion and obfuscation of the group had much to do with the erroneous impression of Malonis. But such a mistake doesn't necessarily negate the fact there might be some improper conduct.

Why would you presume that an attorney -- a Texas attorney -- would assume that he wouldn't win in Judge Walther's court? There is such a thing as respect for the court, except when he comes to the FLDS. They don't seem to have respect for anyone or anything outside their circle.

evalles

06-26-2008, 11:49 PM

Originally posted by Roux

I find it quite offensive that Medvecky guy you read has a picture of Judge Walther with the caption "The Gestapo." That's inflammatory and is totally unnecessary.

Why are you so certain she is biased? Just because you didn't like the decisions she made? None of us have seen everything the judge saw. [/*]

Two higher courts saw what she saw and one said she abused her discretion.
Both said she was wrong to take all the kids.

That Medvecky guy has a right to his opinion and many agree with him.

Inflammatory also describes the dossier on FLDS members.

evalles

06-26-2008, 11:55 PM

Originally posted by Imperfect

Those same higher courts have given her considerable leeway to monitor the situation as she sees fit, and they are not standing in the way of the ongoing investigation.

They've done their part and stepped aside to allow her to do hers.

What's the problem? :shrug: [/*]

The appeals court said she abused her discretion. Based on the fact that they agree she had no right to remove and keep these kids, I don't know why they think she'll do the right thing now.

Regardless, her life will never be the same. Based on the security around her, it's clear that there's a whole lotta people that don't take kindly to the unlawful removal of hundreds of children.
And they're not just FLDS members.

And I don't feel sorry for her at all.

evalles

06-27-2008, 12:02 AM

Originally posted by Roux

I agree that the original belief that Teresa had a child is troubling, but no doubt the confusion and obfuscation of the group had much to do with the erroneous impression of Malonis. But such a mistake doesn't necessarily negate the fact there might be some improper conduct.

Why would you presume that an attorney -- a Texas attorney -- would assume that he wouldn't win in Judge Walther's court? There is such a thing as respect for the court, except when he comes to the FLDS. They don't seem to have respect for anyone or anything outside their circle. [/*]

Based on the decisions she's made in the past. Like the one where she said ok to removing hundreds of children with no thought to that little thing called due process.
I'm not in their circle and I don't respect Walther's. The FLDS are not at fault for the disclosures of an experienced attorney about her minor client. She was on National TV talking about her client having a child and being sexually abused. This is wrong and nobody's fault but her own.

juliekan

06-27-2008, 12:18 AM

Originally posted by walton

Check out the entry titled TRO extended for 90 days against King Willie Jessop: http://coramnonjudice.blogspot.com/

interesting [/*]

WOW. I'm behind ya'll tonight, will try to catch up. But all I can say is WOW.

Mimi428

06-27-2008, 01:32 AM

Originally posted by walton
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700237986,00.html

Which Jeffs is he representing on "criminal matters" ? Annette the mom or Theresa Warrens daughter? And what are the criminal matters? [/*]

By the way the paragraphs were written plus the fact that the article focused on Teresa, I believe he is representing Teresa.

There is nothing referencing Annette between these 2 paragraphs -

Jeffs, the daughter of FLDS leader Warren Jeffs, entered the courthouse at 3:50 p.m. local time & left at 4:35 p.m. When asked by reporters whether she testifed before the grand jury, she turned and smiled and then was escorted to a waiting vehicle.

San Antonio attorney Alan Futrell was with Jeffs outside the courthouse Wednesday & said he now represents her on criminal matters. . .

spirit07

06-27-2008, 03:00 AM

Originally posted by juliekan

WOW. I'm behind ya'll tonight, will try to catch up. But all I can say is WOW. [/*]

I hope the Big W is in Big T(trouble)... from that link

"The TRO hearing then resumed, and Malonis dropped a bombshell, with documentary evidence that said the girl had been sexually abused..."

Same ole stuff...

"... could it be that there is evidence, and the FLDS is trying to keep it out of the press so they can continue to spin this? It seems to be a pattern, as the same thing happened when CPS was preparing to call child witnesses the last time there was an impasse, and all of a sudden the FLDS folded and agreed to the judge's orders."

ref http://coramnonjudice.blogspot.com/

Mimi428

06-27-2008, 03:11 AM

Originally posted by evalles
Guys, this isn't good.

On Bill Medvecky's site Free the FLDS children, he says there's a six month old that's in bad shape.
[/*]

Here's another link -

http://www.flds.ws/joshuas-corner/

Joshua’s parents live in Colorado City and had to fly Joshua to Texas for special care not available at home. Their expenses have been mounting and they are in need of our help.

Colorado City is 130 miles away from Eldorado. If the family was living in Colorado City, they certainly were not among the FLDS families to be affected by the Eldorado situation.

http://www.mapquest.com/maps?1c=Colorado+City&1s=TX&2c=Eldorado&2s=TX

Cook Children's Hospital in Ft. Worth has a Ronald McDonald house. I wonder why the Daugherty family has not chosen to stay there, instead of the motel? Hmmmm.

http://www.cookchildrens.org/patientsvisitors/patientguides/Pages/MedicalCenter.aspx

Immediate family members may be able to stay at the Ronald McDonald House. Ask a social worker for more information about this home-away-from-home for families of patients. To help find other accomodations, go to the Fort Worth Visitors & Convention Bureau's online hotel listings.

The physical address of Cook Children's Hospital is 801 7th Ave
Fort Worth, TX 76104.

The physical address of the Ronald McDonald House is 1004 7th Ave Fort Worth, TX 76104.

Here's the admission guidelines page at the Ronald McDonald house of Ft. Worth.

http://www.ftworthrmh.org/Families/AdmissionGuidelines/tabid/71/Default.aspx

Cook Children's Hospital has been named to U.S. News & World Report’s Best Hospitals list -

http://www.cookchildrens.org/aboutus/Pages/newsheadline.aspx?ID=32

juliekan

06-27-2008, 03:29 AM

"had to fly Joshua to Texas"....where was he? I thought he was in Colorado City Texas? Sheesh, talk about milking people for money...it was just CC to Fort Worth...not out of state for the flight.
Thanks for being so nice to provide all the info for evalles so she can pass it along, Mimi. You can report back to us on how it all goes, Eva. :)

LLaFren

06-27-2008, 05:54 AM

I found this pretty interesting about the Grand Jury Hearing:

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_9697255

Brad Haralson, a San Angelo attorney who represents an FLDS woman, had even less to offer about how the day went: "I can't say a thing," he said.

evalles

06-27-2008, 07:15 AM

Originally posted by grammybear
Pardon me for sounding dumb but is there a Colorado City in TX. I know there is one in Utah but I didn't realize there was one in Texas. If they were in Utah why didn't the parents just take him to Primary Children's hospital? This hospital has been named one of the best for children. We also have a Ronald Mcdonald House right by the Primary Childrens Hospital. Also while I am thinking about this the mother would be elegible for the Chip program which would pay for all the medical care for the child.

I don/t mean to burst anybodys bubble but there being free care for this boys medical why would they need to ask for donations?
I guess I am getting old, because I do question some of these things that are going around about the FLDS, [/*]

Not for medical, for a place to stay so that they can be close to the hopital. Right now, they're staying in a motel room with no kitchen at $50 a day.

walton

06-27-2008, 07:40 AM

http://myeldorado.net/ If anyone else gets this paper let me know.

Randy's column had me rollin'. :D

Randy everybody loves a "frumpy".

:patriot: I gotta say, I sure do love those Texans.

walton

06-27-2008, 08:20 AM

http://testimonies.riobravoreversal.com/stories/2005/daugherty_s.html

Here is some more info on the Daugherty family.

If something happens to this site .... I took the liberty and printed it.

walton

06-27-2008, 08:31 AM

http://www.flds.ws/2008/06/18/one-of-ours-needs-your-prayers/

6 month old Joshua Daugherty has been in the hospital seriously ill since June 10

He’s in Fort Worth at Cooks Children’s Hospital.

He is the son of Sandy and Jesse Daugherty, a very good friend of this site.

How long has this couple belonged to the FLDS YFZ Ranch ?

Seems odd that they allowed newcomers into the fold. jmo

My youngest was born with bacterial meningitis. He was in the hospital for 45 days and we almost lost him many a time. I know the pain and the anguish of feeling helpless and alone.

Back then there were not the programs in place that they have today.

Nothing wrong in asking for help, but some honesty might go a long way. jmo

This baby will be in my thoughts and prayers.

Mimi428

06-27-2008, 12:21 PM

Originally posted by evalles

Not for medical, for a place to stay so that they can be close to the hopital. Right now, they're staying in a motel room with no kitchen at $50 a day. [/*]

They can speak to the social worker at the hospital, get a referral & then walk 2 whole blocks to the Ronald McDonald House. They can stay there & be fed by others. It isn't a new concept, the Ronald McDonald House of Ft Worth has been in existence for at least 25 years.

Mimi428

06-27-2008, 12:35 PM

Originally posted by grammybear
Pardon me for sounding dumb but is there a Colorado City in TX. I know there is one in Utah but I didn't realize there was one in Texas. If they were in Utah why didn't the parents just take him to Primary Children's hospital? This hospital has been named one of the best for children. We also have a Ronald Mcdonald House right by the Primary Childrens Hospital. Also while I am thinking about this the mother would be elegible for the Chip program which would pay for all the medical care for the child.

I don/t mean to burst anybodys bubble but there being free care for this boys medical why would they need to ask for donations?
I guess I am getting old, because I do question some of these things that are going around about the FLDS, [/*]

There is a Colorado City, Texas. It is right at 130 miles northwest of Eldorado. One website indicates they went from Colorado City, TEXAS to Ft. Worth. Another page indicates they 'flew INTO' Texas from Colorado City (somewhere). Colorado City, Texas is just under 220 miles from Cook Children's Hospital in Ft. Worth.

Ultimately, I have no idea which Colorado City they started from, but I agree with you that if they were in Utah, it would certainly make sense to use their exceptional hospital.

Mimi428

06-27-2008, 12:52 PM

Originally posted by walton
http://testimonies.riobravoreversal.com/stories/2005/daugherty_s.html

Here is some more info on the Daugherty family.

If something happens to this site .... I took the liberty and printed it. [/*]

Thanks for finding that!

At least we know that they are from Colorado City TEXAS. I was not aware that the FLDS were present in Colorado City, TX. Interesting, very interesting.

Cat2007

06-27-2008, 12:53 PM

Originally posted by grammybear
SNIPPED I don/t mean to burst anybodys bubble but there being free care for this boys medical why would they need to ask for donations?
I guess I am getting old, because I do question some of these things that are going around about the FLDS, [/*]

And you should keep on questioning, grammy. It's amazing what these people have gotten away with (and sickening).

Cat2007

06-27-2008, 12:57 PM

I just finished "Stolen Innocence." I so felt Elissa's pain. I would like to meet her and embrace her and tell her how courageous she was.

I was especially elated when Elissa stared down Jeffs in the court room. He was the one who looked away finally. VICTORY. She is her own woman now with her own family and life. It is just so sad that she will probably never see her mother and younger sisters again, who are still caught in the FLDS web.

Does anyone know if the custody case about Teressa's children has ever come up? I sure hope and pray that she got to keep her children. TIA to anyone who knows.

lotty

06-27-2008, 01:15 PM

Originally posted by Cat2007
I just finished "Stolen Innocence." I so felt Elissa's pain. I would like to meet her and embrace her and tell her how courageous she was.

I was especially elated when Elissa stared down Jeffs in the court room. He was the one who looked away finally. VICTORY. She is her own woman now with her own family and life. It is just so sad that she will probably never see her mother and younger sisters again, who are still caught in the FLDS web.

Does anyone know if the custody case about Teressa's children has ever come up? I sure hope and pray that she got to keep her children. TIA to anyone who knows. [/*]

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/columnists/story.html?id=09218181-661d-4d5f-afea-eaa9022e251a&p=1

Yes, she was awarded full custody.

evalles

06-27-2008, 01:33 PM

Originally posted by Mimi428

They can speak to the social worker at the hospital, get a referral & then walk 2 whole blocks to the Ronald McDonald House. They can stay there & be fed by others. It isn't a new concept, the Ronald McDonald House of Ft Worth has been in existence for at least 25 years. [/*]

Do they allow the entire family to stay there ?

evalles

06-27-2008, 01:40 PM

evalles

06-27-2008, 01:46 PM

Originally posted by juliekan
"had to fly Joshua to Texas"....where was he? I thought he was in Colorado City Texas? Sheesh, talk about milking people for money...it was just CC to Fort Worth...not out of state for the flight.
Thanks for being so nice to provide all the info for evalles so she can pass it along, Mimi. You can report back to us on how it all goes, Eva. :) [/*]

Maybe he had to be life flighted.
Nobody is forced to give money. I know I can't right now.

evalles

06-27-2008, 01:49 PM

Originally posted by walton
http://www.flds.ws/2008/06/18/one-of-ours-needs-your-prayers/

How long has this couple belonged to the FLDS YFZ Ranch ?

Seems odd that they allowed newcomers into the fold. jmo

My youngest was born with bacterial meningitis. He was in the hospital for 45 days and we almost lost him many a time. I know the pain and the anguish of feeling helpless and alone.

Back then there were not the programs in place that they have today.

Nothing wrong in asking for help, but some honesty might go a long way. jmo

This baby will be in my thoughts and prayers. [/*]

Thanks for keeping your focus on the baby.

Mimi428

06-27-2008, 01:54 PM

Originally posted by evalles

Do they allow the entire family to stay there ? [/*]

They did when my niece spent the better part of 3 months at a Ronald McDonald House while her oldest of 4 children was hospitalized.

They don't allow children to be unsupervised & any baby in the PICU would have severe limitations on who could be there, but if one parent stays with the other children - the other parent could be with the baby.

evalles

06-27-2008, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by Imperfect

IIRC, what the appellate court said was that subsequent to the removal of the children, there was not enough evidence available to keep them in custody. So they were returned. And the evidence is still being gathered. And the grand jury hearings have begun.

I don't recall that the ruling was the state 'had no right' to remove the children. That was spin ... or an assumption on the part of the FLDS and those who feel it is their Constitutional right to do whatever they like with their children. [/*]

It did.
The mandamus decision stated that CPS failed to establish that the need for protection was urgent and required immediate removal of the children.

http://web.gosanangelo.com/pdf/Mandamus_Decision.pdf

evalles

06-27-2008, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by Mimi428

They did when my niece spent the better part of 3 months at a Ronald McDonald House while her oldest of 4 children was hospitalized.

They don't allow children to be unsupervised & any baby in the PICU would have severe limitations on who could be there, but if one parent stays with the other children - the other parent could be with the baby. [/*]

Maybe someone should let them know. It has to be a huge financial burden, how can one stay with the other children while the other is with the baby and hold a job ?

lotty

06-27-2008, 02:29 PM

Originally posted by evalles

Maybe someone should let them know. It has to be a huge financial burden, how can one stay with the other children while the other is with the baby and hold a job ? [/*]

http://www.flds.ws/

On this site is says they can't stay at the Ronald McDonald house because of the CPS Investigation.

Also I have a question...is this family FLDS? The only thing I could find on the site, is that they are "members of the site." Nothing anywhere about them being FLDS.
OTOH If CPS is investigating them for a known genetic defect, terribly sad.

juliekan

06-27-2008, 02:50 PM

Originally posted by walton
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700237986,00.html

San Antonio attorney Alan Futrell was with Jeffs outside the courthouse Wednesday and said he now represents her on criminal matters. Futrell said it was his understanding that the grand jury would reconvene on July 22. He also said law enforcers were very fair with his client and the other FLDS women Wednesday and treated them compassion.

Which Jeffs is he representing on "criminal matters" ? Annette the mom or Theresa Warrens daughter? And what are the criminal matters? [/*]

An article in www.gosanangelo.com on thurs described him as the attorney for Jeff's "16 year old daughter.":shrug: confusing

Mimi428

06-27-2008, 03:17 PM

Originally posted by lotty

http://www.flds.ws/

On this site is says they can't stay at the Ronald McDonald house because of the CPS Investigation.

Also I have a question...is this family FLDS? The only thing I could find on the site, is that they are "members of the site." Nothing anywhere about them being FLDS.
OTOH If CPS is investigating them for a known genetic defect, terribly sad. [/*]

Thanks for the update. I can't figure out if this family is FLDS either.

I am extremely skeptical that CPS would continue investigating any family with a child with HLH unless the child ALSO presents with symptoms/findings NOT found with HLH.

I also wonder if there is any consanguinity between the parents. The hereditary form of HLH, which typically reveals itself before the infant is a year old, has been shown to be connected to parents who are too closely related. Not all cases are because of that, but it is a not-uncommon finding.

JMO

lotty

06-27-2008, 04:29 PM

Originally posted by Mimi428

Thanks for the update. I can't figure out if this family is FLDS either.

I am extremely skeptical that CPS would continue investigating any family with a child with HLH unless the child ALSO presents with symptoms/findings NOT found with HLH.

I also wonder if there is any consanguinity between the parents. The hereditary form of HLH, which typically reveals itself before the infant is a year old, has been shown to be connected to parents who are too closely related. Not all cases are because of that, but it is a not-uncommon finding.

JMO [/*]

I don't know...it is the usual "without the details, who can say for sure." As usual I hope for the best possible outcome, an ill child is something anyone would empathize with. Walton put a link up earlier about the family, it didn't say anything about the spouses being related (nor would it I'm sure.) Although it does tell about the mother having a tubal ligation reversed, I'm pretty certain they are not FLDS. It is still an unfortunate situation. Best wishes for the little boy and his family.
:rose: As always JMO/IMO.

juliekan

06-27-2008, 04:30 PM

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_9714570

Teresa Jeffs made a brief appearance before the grand jury Wednesday, but was represented in the proceeding by a criminal attorney.

lotty

06-27-2008, 04:41 PM

Originally posted by juliekan
http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_9714570

Teresa Jeffs made a brief appearance before the grand jury Wednesday, but was represented in the proceeding by a criminal attorney. [/*]

Ok, I'm drowning here...this is soooo over my head. Can someone explain to me why she would need a criminal attorney? This whole thing with Miss Jeffs just boggles my mind. If the truth lies somewhere in the middle...Ouch. I don't know any 16 year olds capable of handling any of this in a way that could make sense. I don't believe a teen of this age has enough experience to make grounded judgements in this sort of situation (I wouldn't as an adult.) The outside pressures: family, religion, attorneys, media all of the things that go into this would probably make me lose my senses. I couldn't imagine all of this at 16.:confused:

walton

06-27-2008, 04:57 PM

Would this 16 year old girl need a criminal attorney because she knows where someone is and isn't telling?

Or... would a 16 year old girl need a criminal attorney if she was "spiritually married" to a man MUCH older than her and gave her baby away?

Annette Jeffs was supposedly one of the women who saw Warren before and after the raid. Naomi his other wife wasn't at the ranch at the time of the raid.

Where are all of Warrens wives? Who are all of Warrens wives?

juliekan

06-27-2008, 04:59 PM

Originally posted by lotty

Ok, I'm drowning here...this is soooo over my head. Can someone explain to me why she would need a criminal attorney? This whole thing with Miss Jeffs just boggles my mind. If the truth lies somewhere in the middle...Ouch. I don't know any 16 year olds capable of handling any of this in a way that could make sense. I don't believe a teen of this age has enough experience to make grounded judgements in this sort of situation (I wouldn't as an adult.) The outside pressures: family, religion, attorneys, media all of the things that go into this would probably make me lose my senses. I couldn't imagine all of this at 16.:confused: [/*]

ITA. The kid has 3 attorneys at this point :confused:

walton

06-27-2008, 05:14 PM

http://www.indianpediatrics.net/may2007/may-371-374.htm

All patients with known familial disease suspected genetic disease due to age below 1 year and patients with life-threatening symptoms such as coagulopathy, profound cytopenia or neurological disease should receive therapy. In familial cases this has to be followed by stem cell transplantation (SCT) as the only curative disease(7).

http://www.histio.org/site/c.kiKTL4PQLvF/*.1851483/k.7487/Hemophagocytic_Syndromes.htm

We currently know that HLH occurs either on the basis of a genetic defect or as a secondary form with underlying diseases such as infections, cancer, or rheumatic diseases. In the primary form, also known as familial hemophagocytic lymphohistiocytosis (FHL or FHLH), defective genes are inherited from both the mother and the father (autosomal recessive inheritance).

http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produkte.asp?Aktion=ShowFulltext&ArtikelNr=74232&Ausgabe=229718&ProduktNr=223829

Hemophagocytic lymphohistiocytosis (HLH) occurs mostly in infants and children and is characterized by fever, cytopenia, hepatic dysfunction, lipidemia, hepatosplenomegaly and disseminated intravascular coagulopathy. The disease is classified as familial (FHL) or nonfamilial (secondary) HLH [1, 2]. Since diagnostic criteria were established, accurate diagnoses are easily made in cases of slowly progressing disease based on laboratory markers such as serum ferritin levels, natural killer (NK) activity and the presence of hemophagocytes in the bone marrow.

Lots of info.

Mimi428

06-27-2008, 06:42 PM

Originally posted by lotty

Ok, I'm drowning here...this is soooo over my head. Can someone explain to me why she would need a criminal attorney? [/*]

<snipped>

She needs a criminal defense attorney to help her understand her position when she is being questioned by the grand jury.

If she is asked a question - & if she believes a truthful answer will incriminate her own self, she has a right to take the 5th.

So let's say she is asked a question, she is fearful the answer will incriminate her & open her up to criminal charges - so she takes the 5th.

At that point, it is possible for her to be told that she will be protected from prosecution - IOW, she will not need to worry about incriminating herself. IF she finds herself in that situation - after she is given the assurances that her testimony is protected - she MUST answer the questions put before her. If she does not, she will face the possibility of being found in contempt, arrested, etc.

The criminal attorney cannot be in the room with her, but he can advise her beforehand what sorts of questions she may face, the possibility she will be asked to incriminate herself, how to avoid incriminating herself, how she MUST answer if she is given immunity or she will face a different penalty.

I think her situation is complicated for many reasons & I can definitely appreciate why she needs a criminal defense attorney.

We know her mother has been directed to keep Willie away from Teresa. So let's say Annette has not been real vigilant in doing that. Teresa could be asked questions akin to "Do you have any knowledge of your mother telephoning Willie on such & such a date? Did Person X speak to you and/or your mother & offer to be a liaison between Willie & your mother?"

Those sorts of things could be hard for her to answer, considering the loyalties she is expected to have to her mother, her siblings, Willie, her father & the FLDS in general.

JMO

Cat2007

06-27-2008, 06:54 PM

Originally posted by lotty

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/columnists/story.html?id=09218181-661d-4d5f-afea-eaa9022e251a&p=1

Yes, she was awarded full custody. [/*]

Thank you very much, lotty. :)

lotty

06-27-2008, 06:58 PM

Originally posted by Mimi428

<snipped>

She needs a criminal defense attorney to help her understand her position when she is being questioned by the grand jury.

If she is asked a question - & if she believes a truthful answer will incriminate her own self, she has a right to take the 5th.

So let's say she is asked a question, she is fearful the answer will incriminate her & open her up to criminal charges - so she takes the 5th.

At that point, it is possible for her to be told that she will be protected from prosecution - IOW, she will not need to worry about incriminating herself. IF she finds herself in that situation - after she is given the assurances that her testimony is protected - she MUST answer the questions put before her. If she does not, she will face the possibility of being found in contempt, arrested, etc.

The criminal attorney cannot be in the room with her, but he can advise her beforehand what sorts of questions she may face, the possibility she will be asked to incriminate herself, how to avoid incriminating herself, how she MUST answer if she is given immunity or she will face a different penalty.

I think her situation is complicated for many reasons & I can definitely appreciate why she needs a criminal defense attorney.

We know her mother has been directed to keep Willie away from Teresa. So let's say Annette has not been real vigilant in doing that. Teresa could be asked questions akin to "Do you have any knowledge of your mother telephoning Willie on such & such a date? Did Person X speak to you and/or your mother & offer to be a liaison between Willie & your mother?"

Those sorts of things could be hard for her to answer, considering the loyalties she is expected to have to her mother, her siblings, Willie, her father & the FLDS in general.

JMO [/*]

Thank you! You explained a lot. :)

evalles

06-27-2008, 07:01 PM

Originally posted by lotty

http://www.flds.ws/

On this site is says they can't stay at the Ronald McDonald house because of the CPS Investigation.

Also I have a question...is this family FLDS? The only thing I could find on the site, is that they are "members of the site." Nothing anywhere about them being FLDS.
OTOH If CPS is investigating them for a known genetic defect, terribly sad. [/*]

This was on the site also. Do you think it's true ?
This baby needs all the love he can get. He needs his parents.
IMO it could be the difference between life and death.
Can't they leave them alone until the baby's better ?

The child’s Doctor’s have stated that the boy is not a victim of child abuse, he has a medical condition that cannot be purposely inflicted. And yet, CPS is hounding this family while the Parents are not even allowed to hold the child or touch him because they might “Abuse” him some more!

lotty

06-27-2008, 07:07 PM

Originally posted by evalles

This was on the site also. Do you think it's true ?
This baby needs all the love he can get. He needs his parents.
IMO it could be the difference between life and death.
Can't they leave them alone until the baby's better ?

The child’s Doctor’s have stated that the boy is not a victim of child abuse, he has a medical condition that cannot be purposely inflicted. And yet, CPS is hounding this family while the Parents are not even allowed to hold the child or touch him because they might “Abuse” him some more! [/*]

Did I say something wrong? I thought I said it was "terribly sad", and in another post "very unfortunate." Sorry if I offended you. The only thing I was questioning is if they are FLDS, as that is not made clear on the site. Whether they are or not matters as far as the topic of the thread.:confused:

evalles

06-27-2008, 07:17 PM

evalles

06-27-2008, 07:29 PM

Originally posted by lotty

Did I say something wrong? I thought I said it was "terribly sad", and in another post "very unfortunate." Sorry if I offended you. The only thing I was questioning is if they are FLDS, as that is not made clear on the site. Whether they are or not matters as far as the topic of the thread.:confused: [/*]

I wasn't offended, I know that you're sad for what this baby and his family are going through regardless of if they're FLDS or not.

Something like this is every parent's worst fear.

Despite the differing opinions on this board, I can't imagine there would be any conflict when it comes to a sick baby.

I really was asking what you thought, not trying to be argumentative.

If they're FLDS, they don't sound like the norm.

lotty

06-27-2008, 07:34 PM

Originally posted by evalles

I wasn't offended, I know that you're sad for what this baby and his family are going through regardless of if they're FLDS or not.

Something like this is every parent's worst fear.

Despite the differing opinions on this board, I can't imagine there would be any conflict when it comes to a sick baby.

I really was asking what you thought, not trying to be argumentative.

If they're FLDS, they don't sound like the norm. [/*]
I think the doctors should be listened to...I do feel for families needlessly torn apart. Sometimes honest mistakes are made and if this is one hopefully things will work out quickly. Life has a way of throwing terrible things into everyones lives. How we deal with that makes all of the difference. Hopefully this situation will turn out well.

evalles

06-27-2008, 07:41 PM

And the judge took a huge risk backing up CPS. But she did it. And she stood by her decision.

So, if not for genuine concern for the immediate welfare of the children, what would be the motivation for CPS and the judge to hang themselves out to dry?

I'm not familiar with the intricacies of the laws pertaining to children. But if the laws of this country are arranged such that children like the FLDS kids can be used and abused by their prophet and their parents, even when there is clear and accumulating evidence that something is very, very wrong, then it seems obvious to me we've missed the boat.

__________________________________________________ __

Imperfect,
CPS and the judge are well aware that simply stating they're doing what's in the child's best interests is very powerful.

They're used to pulling this crap on individuals that are too poor to fight them and they get away with it so much that they begin to feel immune.

They're not questioned much because they're seen as the 'good guys'.

The laws are arranged so that there has to be evidence that the children are being abused, to protect families from overzealous government employees.
Not just evidence that the FLDS aren't good people and some have done bad things.

evalles

06-27-2008, 07:47 PM

Originally posted by lotty

I think the doctors should be listened to...I do feel for families needlessly torn apart. Sometimes honest mistakes are made and if this is one hopefully things will work out quickly. Life has a way of throwing terrible things into everyones lives. How we deal with that makes all of the difference. Hopefully this situation will turn out well. [/*]

They need to leave them alone until this baby is better or......I'm not gonna say it.

evalles

06-27-2008, 08:01 PM

Texas' Child Protective Services head Carey Cockerell to retire.

What a coincidence.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/062808dnmetcockerell.44f3*00d.html

A spokesman said his departure wasn’t forced and isn’t the result of criticism of Child Protective Services’ much criticized mass removal of hundreds of children from a polygamist sect’s West Texas ranch this spring.

*** Of course not, that would mean they were wrong.

During his tenure, the grisly beating deaths of three North Texas foster children raised questions about state oversight of private child placing agencies. Meanwhile, a 4-year-old boy’s heat-exposure death in a Pleasant Grove day care center’s van brought to light regulatory failures, including that the center had no qualified director.

****His tenure was 3 1/2 years.

A Dallas child welfare advocate, though, said many problems persist at CPS.

Madeline McClure, executive director of the Texas Association for the Protection of Children, said Mr. Cockerell “inherited a highly dysfunctional system and worked hard to make it less dysfunctional. However, his successor has a lot of work ahead before we can actually call the system ‘functional.’

***** How reassuring.

Of course this would have nothing to do with his "retirement" either.....

COCKERELL TESTIFIED AGAINST THE FLDS ALLEGING ABUSE BEFORE THE TX SENATE COMMITTEE WHO OVERSEES CPS DOINGS–while Cockerell himself has been named in an existing sexual abuse law suit as head commissioner over CPS.

http://www.dailypaul.com/node/48512

There's lots of links to news articles on this subject on the site.