6/13 to .... 6/30

[walton]

Originally posted by evalles


This was on the site also. Do you think it's true ?
This baby needs all the love he can get. He needs his parents.
IMO it could be the difference between life and death.
Can't they leave them alone until the baby's better ?

The child’s Doctor’s have stated that the boy is not a victim of child abuse, he has a medical condition that cannot be purposely inflicted. And yet, CPS is hounding this family while the Parents are not even allowed to hold the child or touch him because they might “Abuse” him some more! [/*]

What do you mean the CPS is hounding the family? Asking questions?

I couldn't hold my baby for awhile either evalles. Just the touch would have caused him pain. He was hooked up to so many wires and tubes that I could hardly see him.

[evalles]

Originally posted by walton


What do you mean the CPS is hounding the family? Asking questions?

I couldn't hold my baby for awhile either evalles. Just the touch would have caused him pain. He was hooked up to so many wires and tubes that I could hardly see him. [/*]

That was a quote from the link I posted. I don't even know that it's true, but it was said.

[walton]

Originally posted by evalles


That was a quote from the link I posted. I don't even know that it's true, but it was said. [/*]

Well it appears that there is a lot said over that makes me question the one posting the info.

He hints that Sandy and Jesse are members of the FLDS from the Ranch. But according to her blog spot it seems odd that the FLDS would allow "newcomers" into the fold.

He also hint that the CPS is way off base in questioning the parents. Not off base. It is their job. And their job is to protect ALL children.

If as the Doctor stated that this disease is genetic than again the CPS are acting within their guideline to be asking these questions.

Evalles if you read any of those links that you brought over or the ones I gave you will see that this didn't have to happen. There is a reason relatives should not be married to one another.

Bill M. reminds me of a friend I have. JB. he and his brother got into a car accident and JB had to have a steel plate put into his head. JB was never really the same after that but his sense of humor has kept us all in stitches. JB thinks he is a warewolf.

Whenever there is a full moon he goes out into the middle of the field butt naked and howls at the moon. We don't know if it is the steel plate that makes him do this or if it is just JB's excuse to do and say the things he does.

I think Bill M. is howling at the moon for whatever reason. And the excuse he is using is the FLDS. Maybe he should back up some of what he says with a link or two. And use real names and comments from the people he talks about.

:shrug:

[evalles]

Originally posted by walton


Well it appears that there is a lot said over that makes me question the one posting the info.

He hints that Sandy and Jesse are members of the FLDS from the Ranch. But according to her blog spot it seems odd that the FLDS would allow "newcomers" into the fold.

He also hint that the CPS is way off base in questioning the parents. Not off base. It is their job. And their job is to protect ALL children.

If as the Doctor stated that this disease is genetic than again the CPS are acting within their guideline to be asking these questions.

Evalles if you read any of those links that you brought over or the ones I gave you will see that this didn't have to happen. There is a reason relatives should not be married to one another.

Bill M. reminds me of a friend I have. JB. he and his brother got into a car accident and JB had to have a steel plate put into his head. JB was never really the same after that but his sense of humor has kept us all in stitches. JB thinks he is a warewolf.

Whenever there is a full moon he goes out into the middle of the field butt naked and howls at the moon. We don't know if it is the steel plate that makes him do this or if it is just JB's excuse to do and say the things he does.

I think Bill M. is howling at the moon for whatever reason. And the excuse he is using is the FLDS. Maybe he should back up some of what he says with a link or two. And use real names and comments from the people he talks about.

:shrug: [/*]

The questioning part doesn't bother me,
This is what he wrote ;
CPS “Investigates” his family for giving their child a rare blood disorder called HLH.
__________________________________________________ __
Like this is something they intentionally inflicted on their child.
If this is the only thing they're investigating and the doctors say he isn't abused, they should leave them alone and let them concentrate on their sick child.
If CPS feels like it, the could get a restraining order against the parents and let this baby die alone regardless of what the child's doctor says.
I haven't seen anything that says this couple is related, and there are lots of genetic and hereditary disorders that don't involve the parents being related.

As for Medvecky, he seems to actually have a relationship with some of these members so I'm sure he knows a lot more than either one of us.
He doesn't sound crazy to me and he doesn't think he's a werewolf.

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by evalles
Texas' Child Protective Services head Carey Cockerell to retire.

What a coincidence.
[/*]

Hard to say. His employment with the state spans 4 decades. I don't think it is at all unusual for someone with that many years of employment to retire.

Big gossip right now is who will replace him. There is at least a small contingency that wants Carole Keeton McClellan Rylander Strayhorn* (yep, she's been married a LOT!) to get his position. She's enough of a bulldog that she could certainly set that department on it's ear. However, she has been in hot water with Governor Goodhair for many years, stemming from when she was the comptroller, so I have serious doubts she would get the position.

*Her youngest son is Scott McClellan, former press secretary & current author of a bestseller about his adventures while in that position*

[evalles]

Bill Medvecky explains his interest in the FLDS case.

He's passionate about this subject, as are most of the posters on here. He's not crazy because his opinion differs.

Per Medvecky
I keep getting asked why I stick my very big nose in this issue, and the answer remains the same:

I have a 21 year old Son in the 1st. Cavalry in Texas who just might die protecting the Constitution of the United States. To sit here and see the goons in tanks and battle gear moving against 465 children doesn’t sit well with me, I think they have Constitutional Rights too as well as the protection of Due Process which Texas seems to have overlooked in this case.

I don’t believe in terrorizing children, I see no humor in it, unlike CPS, walther, perry and the good old boys who are still lamenting the fact that they can no longer enjoy their 14 year old brides since the FLDS came to town.

After 30 million bucks, let’s see some broken bones. Let’s see some sexually abused boys, Let’s see the 31 girls that CPS saw either pregnant or with a baby that they used as an excuse to kidnap (Supreme Court) all the children. Let’s see Sarah and the man who was beating her from a few hundred miles away. Let’s see ANYTHING that CPS used as an excuse to Pesecute these people that holds water today.

There is nothing, so now we have the goons standing in front of the gestapo’s house looking for the boogy men.

http://www.flds.ws/2008/06/11/state-gives-up-on-child-abuse-now-claims-flds-is-the-mafia/

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by evalles


The questioning part doesn't bother me,
This is what he wrote ;
CPS “Investigates” his family for giving their child a rare blood disorder called HLH.

He doesn't sound crazy to me and he doesn't think he's a werewolf. [/*]

<snipped>

I sure hope you don't meet up with any grifters, scammers & general con artists because they would have a field day with you.

The man refers to a judge as being part of 'The Gestapo' - & that DOESN'T sound to you as if he has a few screws loose?

Alrighty then.

If he doesn't know, he SHOULD know that the rarity of HLH makes it very UNcommon for a parent with an infant with that diagnosis to not be cleared as soon as a definitive diagnosis is given.

There is one very specific case of an infant with HLH who was also suspected of being a victim of child abuse. The pediatricians who treated that child have written in a pediatric journal a very thorough recap of why they believed what they did. Central Nervous System symptoms are NOT all the same - & the ones that baby had did NOT fit HLH findings. It IS possible for child abuse to happen to sick babies & the doctors in question have been adamant that the infant they treated had both - HLH and head trauma from child abuse.

The 2003 case from the Houston area is the exception that proves the rule (& is not the case I am referring to above).

JMO

[evalles]

I'm not sure if Walton posted this one or not.

http://caringbridge.org/visit/joshuadaughtery

There's a picture of Joshua with his Grandma right before he went in the hispital.
I'm thinking they don't have strong ties to the FLDS because (please forgive me) Grandma is rather plump.


It doesn't look good for this baby.

God help him.

[evalles]

Originally posted by Mimi428


<snipped>

I sure hope you don't meet up with any grifters, scammers & general con artists because they would have a field day with you.

The man refers to a judge as being part of 'The Gestapo' - & that DOESN'T sound to you as if he has a few screws loose?

Alrighty then.

If he doesn't know, he SHOULD know that the rarity of HLH makes it very UNcommon for a parent with an infant with that diagnosis to not be cleared as soon as a definitive diagnosis is given.

There is one very specific case of an infant with HLH who was also suspected of being a victim of child abuse. The pediatricians who treated that child have written in a pediatric journal a very thorough recap of why they believed what they did. Central Nervous System symptoms are NOT all the same - & the ones that baby had did NOT fit HLH findings. It IS possible for child abuse to happen to sick babies & the doctors in question have been adamant that the infant they treated had both - HLH and head trauma from child abuse.

The 2003 case from the Houston area is the exception that proves the rule (& is not the case I am referring to above).

JMO [/*]

Why a field day ? I'll listen to what anybody has to say, but I don't part with my money unless I'm sure it's going to the cause I support.
I'm not wealthy enough to give a lot so it's not a huge concern, but I tend to have doubts about anybody that's asking for my hard earned cash.

Medvecky doesn't really think Walther's is the leader of the Gestapo, just comparable to.

[evalles]

Originally posted by Imperfect


Actually, he does sound a little nuts to me. Talk about your biases.

Yikes. [/*]

How so ?

[evalles]

I don't think it is at all unusual for someone with that many years of employment to retire
____________________________

4 more years and he'd qualify for social security.

BIG coincidence.

[Mimi428]

Medvecky refers to an article in 2003 entitled Hemophagocytic Lymphohistiocytosis Masquerading as Child Abuse: Presentation of Three Cases and Review of Central Nervous System Findings in Hemophagocytic Lymphohistiocytosis to make his assertion that the family is in the same boat as the 3 cases referenced to in the article - here's a link to that article -

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/111/5/e636?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=hlh&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT

In 2004, the same pediatric journal published the following, which thoroughly refuted 2 out of 3 of the cases the first group said were HLH ONLY, with no child abuse present.

Here's that article -

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/114/4/1131-a?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=hlh&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT

Hemophagocytic Lymphohistiocytosis

Excerpt. . .

Rooms et al1 discuss central nervous system (CNS) hemophagocytic lymphohistiocytosis (HLH) as a confounder for abusive head trauma. Case 2 was our patient and was reviewed by one of the authors at the parents' request.

The 4-month-old child presented with seizures, obtundation, chest bruise, bilateral retinal hemorrhage (preretinal, intraretinal, and subretinal) extending from ora serrata to ora serrata, and vitreous hemorrhage. Computed tomography of the head showed acute parenchymal and subdural hemorrhage (parafalcine, tentorial, right frontal), and cerebral edema. Prothrombin time and liver enzymes were elevated, and anemia was present. Elevated triglycerides and conjugated bilirubin were noted but not initially recognized as suggestive of HLH. The parents denied trauma and significant disease, and abusive head trauma was suspected. A craniotomy specimen of the right frontal leptomeninges and subdural hemorrhage subsequently contained atypical hemophagocytic histiocytes, suggestive of HLH.

Autopsy revealed focal sparse histiocytic infiltrates of the leptomeninges and perivascular spaces without involvement of the parenchyma, giant cell hepatitis, and optic nerve subdural and subarachnoid hemorrhage. HLH infiltrates and necrosis were not present in the retinas or the optic nerve hemorrhages.
The literature describing the clinical presentation, natural history, and neuropathology of HLH is voluminous and was reviewed before certification of the cause of death.

We found no reports of HLH presenting with acute fatal intracranial hemorrhage. CNS hemorrhage is rare and is reported to be clinically insignificant. Focal retinal hemorrhages are described in only 2 patients with advanced disease.2,3 They did not resemble the retinal hemorrhages in our patient, which were of the type thought to be most specific for abusive head trauma.4 Several patients with extensive ocular HLH had no retinal hemorrhage.5–8

The patient's fatal brain edema, intracranial hemorrhage, and retinal hemorrhage are highly consistent with abusive head trauma and have not been described in HLH. Our opinion is that the patient died from abusive head trauma and that HLH was a comorbid condition. The same may also be true of case 1 in the Rooms et al article.1


Much more on both links.

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by evalles


4 more years and he'd qualify for social security.

BIG coincidence. [/*]

What does that have to do with anything?

I believe the man's pension after 40+ years employment with the state is going to make his SS retirement check pale in comparison.

[evalles]

Originally posted by Mimi428
Medvecky refers to an article in 2003 entitled Hemophagocytic Lymphohistiocytosis Masquerading as Child Abuse: Presentation of Three Cases and Review of Central Nervous System Findings in Hemophagocytic Lymphohistiocytosis to make his assertion that the family is in the same boat as the 3 cases referenced to in the article - here's a link to that article -

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/111/5/e636?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=hlh&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT

In 2004, the same pediatric journal published the following, which thoroughly refuted 2 out of 3 of the cases the first group said were HLH ONLY, with no child abuse present.

Here's that article -

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/114/4/1131-a?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=hlh&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT

Hemophagocytic Lymphohistiocytosis

Excerpt. . .

Rooms et al1 discuss central nervous system (CNS) hemophagocytic lymphohistiocytosis (HLH) as a confounder for abusive head trauma. Case 2 was our patient and was reviewed by one of the authors at the parents' request.

The 4-month-old child presented with seizures, obtundation, chest bruise, bilateral retinal hemorrhage (preretinal, intraretinal, and subretinal) extending from ora serrata to ora serrata, and vitreous hemorrhage. Computed tomography of the head showed acute parenchymal and subdural hemorrhage (parafalcine, tentorial, right frontal), and cerebral edema. Prothrombin time and liver enzymes were elevated, and anemia was present. Elevated triglycerides and conjugated bilirubin were noted but not initially recognized as suggestive of HLH. The parents denied trauma and significant disease, and abusive head trauma was suspected. A craniotomy specimen of the right frontal leptomeninges and subdural hemorrhage subsequently contained atypical hemophagocytic histiocytes, suggestive of HLH.

Autopsy revealed focal sparse histiocytic infiltrates of the leptomeninges and perivascular spaces without involvement of the parenchyma, giant cell hepatitis, and optic nerve subdural and subarachnoid hemorrhage. HLH infiltrates and necrosis were not present in the retinas or the optic nerve hemorrhages.
The literature describing the clinical presentation, natural history, and neuropathology of HLH is voluminous and was reviewed before certification of the cause of death.

We found no reports of HLH presenting with acute fatal intracranial hemorrhage. CNS hemorrhage is rare and is reported to be clinically insignificant. Focal retinal hemorrhages are described in only 2 patients with advanced disease.2,3 They did not resemble the retinal hemorrhages in our patient, which were of the type thought to be most specific for abusive head trauma.4 Several patients with extensive ocular HLH had no retinal hemorrhage.5–8

The patient's fatal brain edema, intracranial hemorrhage, and retinal hemorrhage are highly consistent with abusive head trauma and have not been described in HLH. Our opinion is that the patient died from abusive head trauma and that HLH was a comorbid condition. The same may also be true of case 1 in the Rooms et al article.1


Much more on both links. [/*]

How common is this condition ?

[walton]

Originally posted by evalles
Bill Medvecky explains his interest in the FLDS case.

He's passionate about this subject, as are most of the posters on here. He's not crazy because his opinion differs.

Per Medvecky
I keep getting asked why I stick my very big nose in this issue, and the answer remains the same:

I have a 21 year old Son in the 1st. Cavalry in Texas who just might die protecting the Constitution of the United States. To sit here and see the goons in tanks and battle gear moving against 465 children doesn’t sit well with me, I think they have Constitutional Rights too as well as the protection of Due Process which Texas seems to have overlooked in this case.

I don’t believe in terrorizing children, I see no humor in it, unlike CPS, walther, perry and the good old boys who are still lamenting the fact that they can no longer enjoy their 14 year old brides since the FLDS came to town.

After 30 million bucks, let’s see some broken bones. Let’s see some sexually abused boys, Let’s see the 31 girls that CPS saw either pregnant or with a baby that they used as an excuse to kidnap (Supreme Court) all the children. Let’s see Sarah and the man who was beating her from a few hundred miles away. Let’s see ANYTHING that CPS used as an excuse to Pesecute these people that holds water today.

There is nothing, so now we have the goons standing in front of the gestapo’s house looking for the boogy men.

http://www.flds.ws/2008/06/11/state-gives-up-on-child-abuse-now-claims-flds-is-the-mafia/ [/*]



I never said Bill was crazy. I didn't say JB was crazy either.

After 30 million bucks, let’s see some broken bones. Let’s see some sexually abused boys, Let’s see the 31 girls that CPS saw either pregnant or with a baby that they used as an excuse to kidnap (Supreme Court) all the children. Let’s see Sarah and the man who was beating her from a few hundred miles away. Let’s see ANYTHING that CPS used as an excuse to Pesecute these people that holds water today.

I do wonder about a man that makes comments like the above. I myself as I am sure many do would rather NOT see any broken bones/sexually abused boys or girls. That is not healthy.

I wonder about how his son must feel. :(

I believe that Bill is anti- anything government and found a bandwagon to jump on to do his howling. jmo

He had no problem putting the Judges home address and phone number up on the net. Maybe he should put his own picture and address up to show how sincere he really is. Fair is fair right?

[walton]

Originally posted by evalles


The questioning part doesn't bother me,
This is what he wrote ;
CPS “Investigates” his family for giving their child a rare blood disorder called HLH.
__________________________________________________ __
Like this is something they intentionally inflicted on their child.
If this is the only thing they're investigating and the doctors say he isn't abused, they should leave them alone and let them concentrate on their sick child.
If CPS feels like it, the could get a restraining order against the parents and let this baby die alone regardless of what the child's doctor says.
I haven't seen anything that says this couple is related, and there are lots of genetic and hereditary disorders that don't involve the parents being related.

As for Medvecky, he seems to actually have a relationship with some of these members so I'm sure he knows a lot more than either one of us.
He doesn't sound crazy to me and he doesn't think he's a werewolf. [/*]

If the parents are related and they knew that they could pass on this genetic disorder I would think that would be a form of child abuse. jmo the amount of pain and suffering that one goes thru with an illness such as this is horrible.

And if they are NOT part of this FLDS group Bill M should let that fact be known. jmo

[evalles]

Originally posted by walton


If the parents are related and they knew that they could pass on this genetic disorder I would think that would be a form of child abuse. jmo the amount of pain and suffering that one goes thru with an illness such as this is horrible.

And if they are NOT part of this FLDS group Bill M should let that fact be known. jmo [/*]


If they knew they had it. She had her tubal reversed, it seems odd that she would go through that to risk having a child with this kind of illness.
There's also nothing yet to indicate they had any idea that this was a possiblity.

[walton]

http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/

Under Cockerell's leadership:

Child Protective Services began an aggressive hiring effort to fill new positions and reduced investigation caseloads by 41 percent, from a daily average of 43.2 cases per worker in fiscal year 2005 to 25.3 cases in 2007.

The number of residential child care inspections almost doubled, going from 4,590 inspections in 2005 to 8,839 inspections in 2007.

With the addition of more than 200 new staff, Adult Protective Services caseloads fell 31 percent, from a daily average of 52 cases in 2005 to 36 in 2007.

Adoptions of children in the Child Protective Services system increased 27 percent.

''I'm proud of the improvements we made in our programs, but I'm even prouder of the thousands of caseworkers and other staff who made it all possible,'' Cockerell said. ''They really came together and supported the rebuilding of the agency into one that was stronger and better equipped to protect Texans.''



The spinners can say what they want but you can't fake facts like this.

I say good job Cockerell.

[evalles]

Originally posted by walton




I never said Bill was crazy. I didn't say JB was crazy either.



I do wonder about a man that makes comments like the above. I myself as I am sure many do would rather NOT see any broken bones/sexually abused boys or girls. That is not healthy.

I wonder about how his son must feel. :(

I believe that Bill is anti- anything government and found a bandwagon to jump on to do his howling. jmo


He had no problem putting the Judges home address and phone number up on the net. Maybe he should put his own picture and address up to show how sincere he really is. Fair is fair right? [/*]

I read on his site, that his son supports his efforts.
He made those comments to show that while the state made a whole lotta claims, they didn't provide anything to back those claims up. $30 million and they didn't show that anything they said was true.

Maybe Walther's should have an unlisted number if she doesn't want anyone to have it.

[walton]

Originally posted by evalles



If they knew they had it. She had her tubal reversed, it seems odd that she would go through that to risk having a child with this kind of illness.
There's also nothing yet to indicate they had any idea that this was a possiblity. [/*]

I don't know evalles. Seems to me that there is an awful lot missing from this whole thing Bill M. is yakking about. Real fast to blame the CPS. Real fast in trying to imply that they may be a part of the FLDS group. But very slow in providing any real hard facts. jmo


Tubal reversals aren't cheap. So Jesse must have a good job.

In Sandys posts she stated she had 3 other children before she had her tubal reversed. I would say that she knows full well the risks of having sex with a relative. If she doesn't than again CPS should be involved as she might not know the dangers of playing with matches.

She also has posted wanting to support Huckabee.

http://mikehuckabee.meetup.com/359/members/6413406/

[walton]

Originally posted by evalles


I read on his site, that his son supports his efforts.
He made those comments to show that while the state made a whole lotta claims, they didn't provide anything to back those claims up. $30 million and they didn't show that anything they said was true.

Maybe Walther's should have an unlisted number if she doesn't want anyone to have it. [/*]

The same could be said about Bill couldn't it?

[walton]

Someone should save Bill from Bill imo.

http://www.4thefamily.us/Free_flds_kids_site

[kellygreen]

Originally posted by evalles



If they knew they had it. She had her tubal reversed, it seems odd that she would go through that to risk having a child with this kind of illness.
There's also nothing yet to indicate they had any idea that this was a possiblity. [/*]

Has anyone ever heard of an FLDS woman having her tubes tied and then having the process reversed? I always thought FLDS women had as many babies as they could produce!

[walton]

Originally posted by kellygreen


Has anyone ever heard of an FLDS woman having her tubes tied and then having the process reversed? I always thought FLDS women had as many babies as they could produce! [/*]

Sandy had posted that she had been married before. This is her 2nd marriage.

Here is more: http://caringbridge.org/cb/viewJournal.do?method=executeInit

We now have the Paypal Donation link on the sidebar up and running on the Blogspot site. Feel free to leave a donation. The monies go directly to the parents for their child's care and for their basic living expenses (toiletries, food, gas) as they are living out of the PICU room four hours away from home. The Daughertys also are separated from their 5 other children as they tend to Joshua's needs.


While your there check out the Guest Book. Interesting note from a Susa Blackmore and of course "Grandpa" Bill Medvecky.

[walton]

hey evalles do you know why Bill made a list of people and had Cockerells name on there with the intials D.O.A. and yesterdays date?

http://www.flds.ws/2008/06/27/cockerell-gets-the-boot-wheres-marleigh/



:eek:

[lotty]

Originally posted by Mimi428


What does that have to do with anything?

I believe the man's pension after 40+ years employment with the state is going to make his SS retirement check pale in comparison. [/*]

I could be wrong, but if you are employed by the state, don't you have to start filing your retirement paper work six months to a year in advance? Someone know what the actual time line is?

[lotty]

Originally posted by kellygreen


Has anyone ever heard of an FLDS woman having her tubes tied and then having the process reversed? I always thought FLDS women had as many babies as they could produce! [/*]

I would think it would make you an apostate very quickly. The whole future of an FLDS woman is to be a wife and mother...that is one thing that I've never heard anyone FLDS or former FLDS dispute. They don't take new members or converts either...leaves me wondering. As always JMO/IMO

[evalles]

Originally posted by walton
hey evalles do you know why Bill made a list of people and had Cockerells name on there with the intials D.O.A. and yesterdays date?

http://www.flds.ws/2008/06/27/cockerell-gets-the-boot-wheres-marleigh/



:eek: [/*]

Nope

[evalles]

Originally posted by Imperfect


Well, he refers to the LE who were at the ranch as 'goons.' And he accuses the governor, the judge and CPS of 'terrorizing' children.

There's passionate. And then there's borderline nuts. He's leaning heavily in the direction of the latter, I'd say. It's tough to establish credibility when you're making outlandish claims like that.

Every time I read something that says the FLDS children were terrorized and traumatized for life by Texas, all I can think of is the terror and trauma of Warren's 12 and 13 year-old brides right around the time he closes the bedroom door behind them on their 'wedding night.'

Or the terror and trauma of a 14 year-old 'lost boy' left standing by the side of the road as his family drives away for the last time.

Or the terror and trauma of Carolyn Jessop and her 8 children, or Elissa Wall, as they run away from the sect in order to save their own skin.

There's plenty terror and trauma to go around, it seems. But why we are focused not on the harm done to these kids by their VERY OWN PARENTS, but instead by LE, is beyond me. [/*]

Because he's not talking about Elissa Wall or the Lost Boys, he's talking about the 464 children that were removed.
The people you're talking about weren't even there.

[evalles]

Originally posted by walton


The same could be said about Bill couldn't it? [/*]

Sure.

[evalles]

Originally posted by Imperfect


Actually, he does sound a little nuts to me. Talk about your biases.

Yikes. [/*]

Yikes, are you not biased against the FLDS ?

[evalles]

Originally posted by walton


I don't know evalles. Seems to me that there is an awful lot missing from this whole thing Bill M. is yakking about. Real fast to blame the CPS. Real fast in trying to imply that they may be a part of the FLDS group. But very slow in providing any real hard facts. jmo


Tubal reversals aren't cheap. So Jesse must have a good job.

In Sandys posts she stated she had 3 other children before she had her tubal reversed. I would say that she knows full well the risks of having sex with a relative. If she doesn't than again CPS should be involved as she might not know the dangers of playing with matches.

She also has posted wanting to support Huckabee.

http://mikehuckabee.meetup.com/359/members/6413406/ [/*]

Do you know for a fact this was a relative ? If not, think how you'd feel to have it said about you.

[evalles]

Originally posted by walton
http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/

Under Cockerell's leadership:

Child Protective Services began an aggressive hiring effort to fill new positions and reduced investigation caseloads by 41 percent, from a daily average of 43.2 cases per worker in fiscal year 2005 to 25.3 cases in 2007.

The number of residential child care inspections almost doubled, going from 4,590 inspections in 2005 to 8,839 inspections in 2007.

With the addition of more than 200 new staff, Adult Protective Services caseloads fell 31 percent, from a daily average of 52 cases in 2005 to 36 in 2007.

Adoptions of children in the Child Protective Services system increased 27 percent.

''I'm proud of the improvements we made in our programs, but I'm even prouder of the thousands of caseworkers and other staff who made it all possible,'' Cockerell said. ''They really came together and supported the rebuilding of the agency into one that was stronger and better equipped to protect Texans.''



The spinners can say what they want but you can't fake facts like this.

I say good job Cockerell. [/*]

All those people and it's still disfunctional.

[evalles]

That's great Walton.

I suppose you're also ok with his involvement in the sexual abuse case involving kids in state custody ?

[evalles]

During his tenure, the grisly beating deaths of three North Texas foster children raised questions about state oversight of private child placing agencies. Meanwhile, a 4-year-old boy’s heat-exposure death in a Pleasant Grove day care center’s van brought to light regulatory failures, including that the center had no qualified director.


Yeah Walton, go ahead and cheer for Cockerell.

[evalles]

Originally posted by walton


If the parents are related and they knew that they could pass on this genetic disorder I would think that would be a form of child abuse. jmo the amount of pain and suffering that one goes thru with an illness such as this is horrible.

And if they are NOT part of this FLDS group Bill M should let that fact be known. jmo [/*]

The doctors said the parents aren't responsible for his condition.
Even if it were true, how is CPS involvement going to help this baby now?
That's what they're there for. I didn't think CPS existed to persecute parents, I thought it was to help children.
I this is a potential criminal case, LE should be investigating.

[evalles]

Originally posted by grammybear
Carolyn andElissa may not have been at the Texas raid, but they sure as heck were there when they were terrorized.
They as others who have left this cult know what these children were dealing with. I think the comparrison with the state are nothing compared with what they are being dealt with as far as the living condition of this cult.

jmoo [/*]

Your opinion is based on one sided information. What do you know about the individuals that had their children removed ?

[walton]

Originally posted by lotty


I could be wrong, but if you are employed by the state, don't you have to start filing your retirement paper work six months to a year in advance? Someone know what the actual time line is? [/*]

He was talking about retiring already last year.

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by Bratlings
HLH is commonly mistaken for shaken baby syndrome which would explain why CPS was initially involved.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/111/5/e636 [/*]

Ketchup!

I posted that link & another link to a subsequent report which debunked one of the reports completely & cast grave doubts on the veracity of another. I'll shorten it more this time so you don't have to read as much. . .

http://pediatrics.aappublications.o...ourcetype=HWCIT

Hemophagocytic Lymphohistiocytosis

Excerpt. . .

Rooms et al1 discuss central nervous system (CNS) hemophagocytic lymphohistiocytosis (HLH) as a confounder for abusive head trauma. Case 2 was our patient and was reviewed by one of the authors at the parents' request.

We found no reports of HLH presenting with acute fatal intracranial hemorrhage. CNS hemorrhage is rare and is reported to be clinically insignificant. Focal retinal hemorrhages are described in only 2 patients with advanced disease.2,3 They did not resemble the retinal hemorrhages in our patient, which were of the type thought to be most specific for abusive head trauma.4 Several patients with extensive ocular HLH had no retinal hemorrhage.5–8

The patient's fatal brain edema, intracranial hemorrhage, and retinal hemorrhage are highly consistent with abusive head trauma and have not been described in HLH. Our opinion is that the patient died from abusive head trauma and that HLH was a comorbid condition. The same may also be true of case 1 in the Rooms et al article.1

(the article you linked is the 'Rooms et al' article they refer to.

[walton]

Originally posted by Imperfect


Well, he refers to the LE who were at the ranch as 'goons.' And he accuses the governor, the judge and CPS of 'terrorizing' children.

There's passionate. And then there's borderline nuts. He's leaning heavily in the direction of the latter, I'd say. It's tough to establish credibility when you're making outlandish claims like that.

Every time I read something that says the FLDS children were terrorized and traumatized for life by Texas, all I can think of is the terror and trauma of Warren's 12 and 13 year-old brides right around the time he closes the bedroom door behind them on their 'wedding night.'

Or the terror and trauma of a 14 year-old 'lost boy' left standing by the side of the road as his family drives away for the last time.

Or the terror and trauma of Carolyn Jessop and her 8 children, or Elissa Wall, as they run away from the sect in order to save their own skin.

There's plenty terror and trauma to go around, it seems. But why we are focused not on the harm done to these kids by their VERY OWN PARENTS, but instead by LE, is beyond me. [/*]

I think anyone that has a list of people and uses the intials D.O.A. behind someones name is leaning towards the deep end. jmo

Bill M., Willie and Rod Parker all should be in time out. jmo

[walton]

Originally posted by Bratlings


Neither of them ever lived at the YFZ ranch. [/*]

Did Bill?

[walton]

Originally posted by evalles
That's great Walton.

I suppose you're also ok with his involvement in the sexual abuse case involving kids in state custody ? [/*]

What the heck are you talking about evalles? Give me a link will ya?

[LLaFren]

Originally posted by walton
hey evalles do you know why Bill made a list of people and had Cockerells name on there with the intials D.O.A. and yesterdays date?

http://www.flds.ws/2008/06/27/cockerell-gets-the-boot-wheres-marleigh/



:eek: [/*]

Dang Walton, that's one very scary sight, OMG they even have an "enforcer hit list"

Yikes:cuss:

edited for spelling (again:rolleyes: ), I will learn to spell, I will learn to spell, I will learn to spell

[walton]

Originally posted by Bratlings



More importantly did you? You seem to make an awful lot of inferences and assumptions about these people. [/*]

I back up what I have to say with a link.

[walton]

Originally posted by evalles



If they knew they had it. She had her tubal reversed, it seems odd that she would go through that to risk having a child with this kind of illness.
There's also nothing yet to indicate they had any idea that this was a possiblity. [/*]

The cost isn't as spendy as I thought it would be. But here is where she had it done. They even have a price list.

http://www.riobravoreversal.com/costs.html

Tubal ligation reversal surgery: $2665 (total US dollars).

Vasectomy reversal surgery: $1765 (total US dollars)

Their homepage: http://www.riobravoreversal.com/

I got this from Sandy's postings.

http://testimonies.riobravoreversal.com/stories/2005/daugherty_s.html click on the bottom where it says back to stories.

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by evalles


How common is this condition ? [/*]

Not common, about 200 cases per year, worldwide, from what I recall reading yesterday.

JMO since I don't have that link at hand right now.

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by Bratlings



So what if it is rare? Maybe they suspected it in this childs case? The point is it could conceivably be the reason CPS was involved in the first place. Are you suggesting you personally know otherwise and can prove that? [/*]

No, are YOU? Can YOU prove this baby exists? Can YOU prove CPS is investigating this family?

The point was that Medvecky, WITHOUT providing any proof, says the family is being investigated by CPS. WITHOUT proof, he declares that not only are they being investigated by CPS, but that CPS believes they are responsible for the baby's condition. Maybe you would like to send a comment to him via his website & ask HIM for proof.

[LLaFren]

Originally posted by Mimi428


No, are YOU? Can YOU prove this baby exists? Can YOU prove CPS is investigating this family?

The point was that Medvecky, WITHOUT providing any proof, says the family is being investigated by CPS. WITHOUT proof, he declares that not only are they being investigated by CPS, but that CPS believes they are responsible for the baby's condition. Maybe you would like to send a comment to him via his website & ask HIM for proof. [/*]

:beer:

[walton]

Originally posted by LLaFren


:beer: [/*]

And a :D

Bratlings if you do e-mail him ask him about the D.O.A thing will ya?

Thanks.

[walton]

Originally posted by evalles


The doctors said the parents aren't responsible for his condition.
Even if it were true, how is CPS involvement going to help this baby now?
That's what they're there for. I didn't think CPS existed to persecute parents, I thought it was to help children.
I this is a potential criminal case, LE should be investigating. [/*]


What do you think causes HLH?

Are you saying that you don't think it is HLH?

but something else?

[LLaFren]

Originally posted by walton


And a :D

Bratlings if you do e-mail him ask him about the D.O.A thing will ya?

Thanks. [/*]

***sputter****
***cough***
***ROFL***

Walton, it's not nice to do that just as I've taken a drink of my tea!:no:
:lol:

[evalles]

Originally posted by Mimi428


No, are YOU? Can YOU prove this baby exists? Can YOU prove CPS is investigating this family?

The point was that Medvecky, WITHOUT providing any proof, says the family is being investigated by CPS. WITHOUT proof, he declares that not only are they being investigated by CPS, but that CPS believes they are responsible for the baby's condition. Maybe you would like to send a comment to him via his website & ask HIM for proof. [/*]

It's funny you want proof that this family is being investigated, but you didn't expect he state to have proof of abuse before taking over 465 children.
I haven't lowered myself to this level before, but I'm going to say the same ridiculous thing that I've heard over and over again on this board.....
Prove that it's not true.

He's not posting on this board, he doesn't have to provide proof.
You can choose not to believe him.

[evalles]

Originally posted by walton



What do you think causes HLH?

Are you saying that you don't think it is HLH?

but something else? [/*]

Show me a link that says the only way to get HLH is if your parents are related.

[evalles]

Originally posted by walton


And a :D

Bratlings if you do e-mail him ask him about the D.O.A thing will ya?

Thanks. [/*]

Why don't you e-mail your buddy Cockerell and ask him why he ignored young boys getting raped by his staff ?

[evalles]

Originally posted by Bratlings



It could mean any of these things or even one not listed-


Date Of Accident (insurance term)
Date of Applicability
Date of Appointment
Date Of Availability
Date of Award
Daughters of America
Dawn of Aces (game)
Days of Ammunition
Dead Or Alive
Dedicated Otaku Anime (Japanese Animation club; University of Calgary)
Defective On Arrival
Degenerate Overclockers Anonymous
Degree of Angle
Delegation Of Authority
Delegation Option Authorization
DeLorean Owners Association
Delusions of Adequacy (band)
Denial of Access [/*]

I like the Defective On Arrival one.


Or how about Dumb Old A-hole

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by evalles


Show me a link that says the only way to get HLH is if your parents are related. [/*]

You are putting the cart before the horse.

PROVE that this family is FLDS - which is exactly what this board is about.

If they aren't, the whole sad story is O/T.

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by evalles


Why don't you e-mail your buddy Cockerell and ask him why he ignored young boys getting raped by his staff ? [/*]

Look up at the name of the board - you are O/T.

[evalles]

Originally posted by Mimi428


You are putting the cart before the horse.

PROVE that this family is FLDS - which is exactly what this board is about.

If they aren't, the whole sad story is O/T. [/*]

Then why have you spent so much time looking for links on this illness ?

Oh, I get it, it's just not ok for anybody else.

And it's just not true that the only way to get HLS is from parents that are related.

Wasn't that what Walton inferred ?

Why don't you expect a link ?

[evalles]

And he accuses the governor, the judge and CPS of 'terrorizing' children.


Well Imperfect,


He's right.
Do you think the children were happy to be taken from their home and forced to sleep on cots in a crowded room ?

[evalles]

Originally posted by grammybear
Carolyn andElissa may not have been at the Texas raid, but they sure as heck were there when they were terrorized.
They as others who have left this cult know what these children were dealing with. I think the comparrison with the state are nothing compared with what they are being dealt with as far as the living condition of this cult.

jmoo [/*]

I disagree and I'm sure all the other children who have been abused in state run facilities would too.

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by evalles


Then why have you spent so much time looking for links on this illness ?

Oh, I get it, it's just not ok for anybody else.

And it's just not true that the only way to get HLS is from parents that are related.

Wasn't that what Walton inferred ?

Why don't you expect a link ? [/*]

You are right, I did take the bait. I should have known better.

:punch: on me for falling for it.

Hereafter, I shall endeavor to improve myself & keep in my mind the actual subject of this board.

I hope my fellow posters will join me - & that includes you.

[evalles]

Originally posted by Mimi428


Ketchup!

I posted that link & another link to a subsequent report which debunked one of the reports completely & cast grave doubts on the veracity of another. I'll shorten it more this time so you don't have to read as much. . .

http://pediatrics.aappublications.o...ourcetype=HWCIT

Hemophagocytic Lymphohistiocytosis

Excerpt. . .

Rooms et al1 discuss central nervous system (CNS) hemophagocytic lymphohistiocytosis (HLH) as a confounder for abusive head trauma. Case 2 was our patient and was reviewed by one of the authors at the parents' request.

We found no reports of HLH presenting with acute fatal intracranial hemorrhage. CNS hemorrhage is rare and is reported to be clinically insignificant. Focal retinal hemorrhages are described in only 2 patients with advanced disease.2,3 They did not resemble the retinal hemorrhages in our patient, which were of the type thought to be most specific for abusive head trauma.4 Several patients with extensive ocular HLH had no retinal hemorrhage.5–8

The patient's fatal brain edema, intracranial hemorrhage, and retinal hemorrhage are highly consistent with abusive head trauma and have not been described in HLH. Our opinion is that the patient died from abusive head trauma and that HLH was a comorbid condition. The same may also be true of case 1 in the Rooms et al article.1

(the article you linked is the 'Rooms et al' article they refer to. [/*]

Are you saying that there were differing opinions on the same cases ?

[evalles]

Originally posted by grammybear
No my opinions are not one sided. As I have stated before I know of people who were FLDS, as well as some lost boys and those that have left this cult. Please do not be condencending to me. I do not appreciate it and it is uncalled for.

All I am trying to say is that the terrorizing the children by this cult imo outweights any terrorizing that they may have suffered at the hands of the state. These children having been abused by their own family speaks volumes to me. Also these girls being told who to marry and when has got to be right up there.
These children are 12,13,14. Do you remember what it would have been like to be abused by an adult at such a young age? Well I do and it is not something you would ever forget.
This will stick with these kids for the rest of their life. It is hard to have sympathy for a group that has lied to them their whole life. The leaders does not want these kids to know the truth about what the outside world is like because they may think it is better on the outside instead of being walled in with guards watching their every move.
Also the thought of the hell and damnation sermons that are told to these kid is abuse. They are scaring the heck out of these kids and it is not apprpriate or sane for someone to do this to children.

jmoo [/*]

Which FLDS members do you know that had their children taken ?

[evalles]

Originally posted by Mimi428


Look up at the name of the board - you are O/T. [/*]

Walton said Cockerell was doing a great job and told another posted to e-mail somebody about what they meant about D.O.A.
I guess you think that's on topic.

Cockerell played a huge role in the FLDS case, Walton posted an entired tribute to Cockerell.


I guess I'm the only one who can't talk about Cockerell.

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by evalles


Walton said Cockerell was doing a great job and told another posted to e-mail somebody about what they meant about D.O.A.
I guess you think that's on topic.
[/*]

I don't think Medvecky or anything he chooses to put on his website is on topic. I think Walton, just like me, answered posts that were written simply to bait & she allowed herself to go O/T. I leave it to her to decide what she wishes to post.

Since it is the weekend & our moderator deserves something of a break, I will hold off until Monday to ask her for her advice on that particular website. Other boards have had significant trouble arising from specific websites - the Maria Lauterbach board, for example - & the decision of the moderator was to tell the posters to refrain from referencing a particular website. I have no idea what her decision will be about the Medvecky website, but I am seeing some parallels here to the problems another website created for the InSession ML board.

In the meantime, I have personally decided to observe a moratorium on commenting about any info on Medvecky's website.

Everyone else is certainly free to make their own decisions.

JMO

[Mimi428]

Cult expert: Texas shouldn't have released FLDS kids

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_9729470

By sending the children in the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints back home, Texas has opened the doors to groups who want religious protection for abusing children, a leading church and state scholar said Saturday.

Marci Hamilton, a professor at Princeton and Yeshiva University's Cardozo Law School, told a conference of the International Cultic Studies Association that the Texas Supreme Court's decision to release the FLDS children from foster care paired with a ruling Friday that tossed out an award for injuries a teen-ager suffered during an exorcism places a welcome mat for abuse.

Professor Hamilton has been described as an expert in constitutional law (as per Wikipedia & a couple other sites). She wrote an article several weeks ago, which was discussed a bit here, in which she stated, among other things -

The Texas Supreme Court Did Not Clear the Adults at the FLDS Compound of Abuse Claims, Nor Did It Vindicate Any “Rights” on Their Part

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/hamilton/20080603.html

[evalles]

CPS, judge threatened American foundation
http://gosanangelo.com/news/2008/jun/19/cps-judge-threatened-american-foundation/

The Texas Legislature has given clear instructions as to when CPS may remove children from their homes. The Texas Supreme Court and Third Court of Appeals both declared that CPS violated those instructions and that none of the FLDS children should ever have been removed. Neither court granted any more authority over the FLDS to Walther or CPS than what they had already in the Texas statutes. They said simply, CPS and Judge Walther, you screwed up. Send the children home. If any CPS intervention later becomes warranted, the law gives the judge the power to order it. Follow the law.

Abuse of power often begins when sensational rumors are spun into a "noble cause" that appears to justify authorities in violating the rule of law. Authorities are rarely prosecuted for these violations, so they tend to move aggressively. Later, they insist their motives are good and, therefore, their violations should be overlooked. Former North Carolina prosecutor Mike Nifong - who lied to the court in a trumped-up rape prosecution of Duke University lacrosse players - followed this pattern and ended up in jail.

But the harm inflicted by Nifong on his victims was minor compared with independent eyewitness accounts of the distress, humiliation and physical abuse inflicted by CPS on the men, women and children of the YFZ Ranch. It should shock the conscience of the people of Texas. One witness described it as a Nazi concentration camp. Another, who saw the floor of the building "slick with tears," said it made her "ashamed to be a Texan." This was not Texas' finest hour.

[evalles]

Originally posted by Mimi428


I don't think Medvecky or anything he chooses to put on his website is on topic. I think Walton, just like me, answered posts that were written simply to bait & she allowed herself to go O/T. I leave it to her to decide what she wishes to post.

Since it is the weekend & our moderator deserves something of a break, I will hold off until Monday to ask her for her advice on that particular website. Other boards have had significant trouble arising from specific websites - the Maria Lauterbach board, for example - & the decision of the moderator was to tell the posters to refrain from referencing a particular website. I have no idea what her decision will be about the Medvecky website, but I am seeing some parallels here to the problems another website created for the InSession ML board.

In the meantime, I have personally decided to observe a moratorium on commenting about any info on Medvecky's website.

Everyone else is certainly free to make their own decisions.

JMO [/*]

Per Walton- - -

Bratlings if you do e-mail him ask him about the D.O.A thing will ya?

Thanks

_______________________________________________

Sounds more like Walton's the one doing the baiting.

It sounds like you don't want sites listed that don't conform to your opinion.

[walton]

http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/

On my June 24 post about the restraining order involving Willie Jessop and Teresa Jeffs, I asked several questions. Natalie Malonis, the attorney who sought the restraining order, provided a few answers and said I could post them on the blog. Here are my questions and her responses, which I received Friday. A note: Judge Barbara Walther ruled on the restraining order that prompted the original post last Tuesday, extending it for 90 days.

[evalles]

Originally posted by Imperfect


If I were one of those children, I'd pick a cot in a crowded room in foster care facility long before I'd pick Warren's 4-poster. [/*]

Warren's in jail, so that's not applicable. And remember, even the "experts" said that there wasn't any risk to younger children and boys.
That was just an inflammatory comment that you feel makes you look witty.
No facts involved.

[evalles]

Originally posted by Imperfect


Great link, Walton.

Gracias.

I think I might launch a website as a tribute to Natalie. She could probably use some support and a few donations herself at this point.

:seeya: [/*]

Who, besides the posters on this board would give her money ?

[evalles]

The Texas Supreme Court Did Not Clear the Adults at the FLDS Compound of Abuse Claims, Nor Did It Vindicate Any “Rights” on Their Part

Of course they didn't, it wasn't their job. They had no authority to tell the state not to investigate or impose any restrictions.
Nor would they give them any more authority than they had before.
The court determined the state was wrong and gave the case back to them to do the right way.

They haven't been charged with any abuse claims to be cleared of.
And IMO it did vindicate their rights to due process.
The decision gave them their children back and that was the only vindication they were looking for at that time.

The "cult expert's" opinion doesn't matter in light of the Supreme Court's decision.

[evalles]

Originally posted by Imperfect


Oh, I don't know. Perhaps several of those questionable, inconsequential survivors and escapees of the FLDS cult. [/*]

How many are there ?
15, 20 ??

[evalles]

Originally posted by Imperfect


You don't find me witty? :eek:

If you're looking for facts, the fact is that Warren Jeffs and very likely his top cronies were bedding 12 and 13 year old girls.

Surely you don't want me to haul out that factual photo of Warren with his mouth all over some FLDS robo-mom's 12 year old daughter again, now do you? [/*]

That photo is not evidence that every child was abused, and that's what this is about.
Remember the 465 children that were taken ?
The photo is irrelevant to these kids.
It would matter in cases involving the girls in the pictures, but it doesn't matter in regards to any other child.

[lotty]

I thought this was an interesting OP-ED piece. It seems the writer did a lot of work. As always JMO/IMO.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/255354#
Op-Ed: Some Historical Perspective on the FLDS
Posted May 29, 2008 by Sykos Masters in Religion | 12 comments | 742 views

At some point in the future, the offenders within the FLDS may be held accountable for their actions. Legal 'justice' will be served, 'appropriate punishment' will be meted out, it may even delay similar abuses in the future. All this is true .....

[evalles]

Originally posted by Imperfect


One day, hopefully sooner rather than later, we will find out just HOW relevant that photo is to the children in Texas.

How will you feel then ... when you realize you've relegated them to the same kind of abuse? [/*]

When I've relegated them to the same kind of abuse ?
If the state had facts to back up their claims, the higher court wouldn't have made them give the kids back.

Are you saying I should just assume this is true because you do ?
If it's fact, why would I have to wait to see anything ?

[evalles]

Originally posted by Imperfect


There are many more, and many we'll never know of.

You discredit your position when you make light of those who have been harmed by this cult.

I suspect the sincerety of your concern with regard to the harm you feel has come to the Texas children when you can't seem to generate even an ounce of sympathy for those who have been irreparably harmed by this group.

There are only a couple of them ... or the lost boys were actually juvenile delinquents who deserved to be put out on the street ... or in Flora Jessop's case, she was just too 'other side of the tracks' to warrant your sympathy.

What about the babies Warren 'married?' What back story have you given them so that you can continue with your belief that these are just a bunch of swell, natural-food loving folks who happen to live on compounds together? [/*]

I don't care if they are swell, good natured people or not.
Elissa Wall and the lost boys weren't a part of the case that took the children from their parents, and they are adults now and living there lives. So no, they're not important to me. Warren Jeffs is in jail and not important to me. The kids should be the only thing important in this. And if they weren't abused, they shouldn't have had to suffer by being taken away.
If they'd found that 50 out of one hundred had been abused, I'd say they did the right thing in regards to 50 and the wrong thing regarding the other 50.
They should be good enough at their jobs to save the abused kids without hurting the others.


You can suspect my sincerity all you want, but I actually talk about the kids, when I posted the link on Joshua, you didn't express any sympathy for this baby, you continued your tirade against the FLDS. You also seem to trivialize the very real trauma these children went through and simply say it was for their own good. Regardless of the circumstances, you could still acknowledge that taking them away from their mothers hurt them.

[evalles]

Originally posted by Imperfect


Surely you've lived enough years, and seen enough things, to understand that evidence doesn't fall out of trees, especially in a case of this magnitude. Evidence is particularly hard to gather when cult activity is involved, and even moreso when children are being abused by their parents and other caretakers. You can ignore the difficulties and time involved in gathering evidence all you like, but it doesn't mean evidence doesn't exist.

And no, I certainly don't expect you to 'assume' anything based on my opinions or beliefs. It's your complete dismissal of the facts and history with regard to the FLDS that makes me wonder about how genuine your concern for the children truly is.

Your determination to separate cult activities in Colorado City/Hildale from cult activities at the ranch feels like nothing more than an excuse you use so that you can turn your back on the obvious: these children are being raised by people who do not have their best interests at heart. That, too, speaks to your sincerity concerning the welfare of the children.

The Elissa Walls and the 12 and 13 year-old 'brides' of Warren Jeffs came to be because there's been a whole lot of back-turning going on for way too long.

IMO. [/*]

Sorry, but I expect evidence that a child is abused before that child is taken away and given to strangers.

[evalles]

Originally posted by walton
http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/

On my June 24 post about the restraining order involving Willie Jessop and Teresa Jeffs, I asked several questions. Natalie Malonis, the attorney who sought the restraining order, provided a few answers and said I could post them on the blog. Here are my questions and her responses, which I received Friday. A note: Judge Barbara Walther ruled on the restraining order that prompted the original post last Tuesday, extending it for 90 days. [/*]

There's some interesting stuff at the link you posted.

Here are a few questions: If Willie is the problem, why is the temporary order Walther issued last week fixated on Annette, Teresa's mother? Why is Annette being subpoenaed to appear in court rather than Willie? What are the possibilities? That Annette will be charged with failure to protect her daughter and be jailed? Or have Teresa, if not her other children, taken away?

Already, Natalie has revealed all kinds of things about Teresa in courtroom statements or filings, from suspicions the teenager had a child (wrong) to an alleged spiritual marriage (unclear) to having had sexual relations (denied) and the girl's scheduled appearance before the grand jury meeting in Schleicher County this week.

So much for grand jury secrecy.

Natalie says her source for most of this information about Teresa is CPS and law enforcement. Are CPS and law enforcement queuing up other attorneys, too? We'll see.


The same CPS that detained a bunch of adults and claimed they were pregnant minors.

[evalles]

Originally posted by Imperfect


Save your apologies for the kids. [/*]

I wonder what would happen if one of these kids was in the middle of a room and we were both on opposite sides (as we are).
You're on your side telling the child, "come with me, I'll take you to a group home because it's what I think is best for you". Meanwhile, I'm on my side telling the child "come on, I'll take you to your mom."

Who do you honestly think that child would go with ?

[evalles]

Originally posted by Imperfect


I'm not sure why several of us have to keep repeating the fact that physically, emotionally, sexually abused children -- absent therapy, other supportive caretakers in their lives, and in this case, possible deprogramming -- will opt to stay with their parents, no matter what. That is exactly why these cases are so difficult to prosecute, and it's exactly what makes these cases among the most tragic of all.

You are ignoring, despite the fact that you have children of your own, that kids do not often know or do what is in their own best interests. When their parents or caretakers are also incapable of doing what is best for them, intervention is necessary.

But you go ahead and hand that child back over to the cult. God forbid your constitutional rights or the rights of the cult members come second to protecting the child. [/*]

And of course,children that haven't been abused want to be with their parents. They still haven't provided evidence that even a small number of kids have been abused.
Do you think they should take then all again ?

[walton]

Originally posted by Imperfect


I'm biased against human beings who act like sheep, women who are led around by the nose by men, child abuse, child sexual molestation, cults and cult leaders, any adult who thinks children are property, and I'll stop there.

So yes, I'm biased against the FLDS, and proudly so.

But you'll notice that unlike the slightly batty Mr. Medvecky, I'm not launching websites or otherwise posing as some independent authority on the subject.

It is only you lucky folks on these threads who get the benefit of my expertise. :D [/*]

We are lucky. And I am glad you are here.

[walton]

Originally posted by Imperfect


Mimi - thanks for both those articles, ESPECIALLY the 2nd of the two.

The whole dang thing is quotable, so I had to pick:



I hope the regulars on this thread read the article at that link all the way through. It states better than I ever could exactly what I've been trying to say about what the appellate and supreme court rulings *really* meant as opposed to how they've been spun by the FLDS and the media. [/*]


More from that 2nd link:

The week before, FLDS members had turned investigators away from the gates of the compound. The court made clear that should not happen again and, by implication, that if investigators during this investigation uncover further evidence of abuse, the state will not be barred from further actions taken to protect each child.

Moreover, neither the Texas Supreme Court nor the lower appellate court ruled on whether the parents have any “rights,” constitutional or otherwise – a point the Texas Supreme Court stated explicitly. To the contrary, both decisions were state law rulings on the sufficiency of the evidence to date to take all of the children at once.


One of the really nice things about Hamilton is that even I understand what she is talking about. Down to earth and no BS. jmo

[evalles]

Originally posted by Imperfect


Good point! :beer:

For that matter, was Bill at the ranch for the removal of children? What qualifies him to refer to LE at the ranch as 'goons' -- does he have FIRST HAND experience with all those LE? And what qualifies him to call the CPS workers, Judge W and Gov Perry 'terrorists?' Does he know them personally? Does he have FIRST HAND experience with them and their terrorist acts?

Why is Bill's word being taken as gospel but neither Carolyn Jessop's nor Elissa Wall's FIRST-HAND experience with the FLDS cult factors into this because they weren't at the ranch? [/*]

He's entitled to his opinion.
I don't think anyone on this board has been to the ranch or has any first hand knowledge of the families of the children who were taken.
You don't know them personally, and yet you still call them pedophiles.
I don't even think that the posters here realize that they're in the minority when it comes to their insistence that the state was justified in taking all these kids.

[walton]

Originally posted by evalles


That photo is not evidence that every child was abused, and that's what this is about.
Remember the 465 children that were taken ?
The photo is irrelevant to these kids.
It would matter in cases involving the girls in the pictures, but it doesn't matter in regards to any other child. [/*]

evalles you do realize that the photo is the Father, Brother, Uncle, step-father and step-grandfather to many that were at the Ranch.

He is also their "Prophet". So the photo does involve each and everyone of those people including the kids. They believed what he says and what he has taught.

[evalles]

Originally posted by Bratlings



Give it up Evalles you cant convince these people; its all about their own self grandeur, and how they are better than these people. Because if for one moment they tried to see the big picture they would realize they are human beings like all of us and then God forbid they wouldnt have so much fun condemning them. [/*]

I know, it just gets frustrating that there's no evidence the kids were abused, yet on this board every parent is a perverted child rapist. It does make me feel better that the majority of rational human beings agree that this was a huge travesty of justice.

[evalles]

Originally posted by walton


evalles you do realize that the photo is the Father, Brother, Uncle, step-father and step-grandfather to many that were at the Ranch.

He is also their "Prophet". So the photo does involve each and everyone of those people including the kids. They believed what he says and what he has taught. [/*]

And he was in jail when they took the kids.
Not all members were in total agreement with Jeff's teachings.

My daugher is familiar with photo shop and she pointed out inconsistencies in the photo of Jeffs and Merriane.
I didn't influence her either, I just said that some people thought they were fakes and she started pointing to different indicators.
She did say the ones with Loretta looked like the real deal.

[walton]

Here is a story about Kaziah the "Goat Woman".

In the years after 1982, Kaziah worked sporadically on Prisons of the Mind (published by Desert Blossom Publishing, 1997) and tried to establish herself as an artist. Her early attempts were dogged by a frailty of spirit. Kaziah had not escaped the horrors of 18 years of living hell without some scars. Night after night, she would wake screaming, bathed in sweat so deep you could almost swim in it. "I felt as if my past would never leave me. I dreaded the need to sleep. Every night the same dream and the same ending, the same evil face that had haunted me night and day for 18 years persecuted me in freedom."

Finally driven nearly to suicide, she reached out to God. "Take this burden from me," she pleaded. The date was April 6, 1992. The following day Kaziah heard that the man in her nightmares, the man who had abused her body and soul for so long, was dead.


http://www.polygamybooks.com/lawtlc.htm

This is just some of what Kaziah has been doing. Here is a short video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=it7NQBN-lO0

:rose:

[walton]

Originally posted by evalles


And he was in jail when they took the kids.
Not all members were in total agreement with Jeff's teachings.

My daugher is familiar with photo shop and she pointed out inconsistencies in the photo of Jeffs and Merriane.
I didn't influence her either, I just said that some people thought they were fakes and she started pointing to different indicators.
She did say the ones with Loretta looked like the real deal. [/*]



Did those members that are NOT in total agreement with all of Warrens teachings speak up? If not why not?

[evalles]

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/jun/23/cps-actions-damaged-children/

Instead, CPS opted for the mass amputation of the mothers from their children. They were taken from the foggy and distant danger they faced and thrown into the clear and present danger of foster care.

One need only read the accounts of the only neutral eyewitnesses during the children's first days in captivity, mental health professionals sent in by the state, to understand the harm.

"I witnessed a small boy, maybe 3 years old, walking along the rows of cots with a little pillow saying, "I need someone to rock me, I just want to be rocked, I want to find a rocking chair," wrote one of the mental health professionals. "Two CPS workers were following him and writing in their notebooks, but not speaking to him or comforting him."

The observations are supported by research. A major national study of foster care "alumni" found they had twice the level of post-traumatic stress disorder of Gulf War veterans and only 20 percent could be said to be doing well

Johana Scot is executive director of the Parent Guidance Center in Austin. Richard Wexler is executive director of the National Coalition for Child Protection Reform.

[juliekan]

Originally posted by evalles
Guys, this isn't good.

On Bill Medvecky's site Free the FLDS children, he says there's a six month old that's in bad shape.


http://www.flds.ws/

A link to description of this medical disorder.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol6no6/fisman.htm

I hope CPS decides to help this family instead of destroying it.
These parents need to be focused on this baby and not on what CPS might be planning.
You know that if CPS determines that the other children are being 'neglected' because of the extra attention required by this sick child, they can take them.

I also found out from a foster dad that when a child that's a ward of the state dies, he's no longer a ward of the state so they won't pay for the funeral.

How nice. "Now that he's dead, you can have him back."
I don't see how some people live with themselves. [/*]

To start a recap of the last few days, why is this child's illness the fault of the state of Texas? The poor baby was born with this disease.

[juliekan]

Originally posted by evalles


Maybe he had to be life flighted.
Nobody is forced to give money. I know I can't right now. [/*]

I donate to life flight 3 times a year. Glad I could help.

[juliekan]

Originally posted by evalles


Do they allow the entire family to stay there ? [/*]

With a child with a serious long term illness, it is often not possible for the family to stay together. Very sad, but just not a possibility for people like me and a lot of others out there. I worked at Galveston Shriner Burns Center for Children, and if there is a long term illness and adaptation, that's it. It is just not possible to keep an entire family for long term in a setting that just concentrates on one child. The other children need to go to school, have friends, play sports, and just be "at home." And they have to eat, so someone's got to work. The state cannot support every family that has a crisis, so that they can stay together, not work, and take care of the ill person in the family.

[juliekan]

Originally posted by walton


Well it appears that there is a lot said over that makes me question the one posting the info.

He hints that Sandy and Jesse are members of the FLDS from the Ranch. But according to her blog spot it seems odd that the FLDS would allow "newcomers" into the fold.

He also hint that the CPS is way off base in questioning the parents. Not off base. It is their job. And their job is to protect ALL children.

If as the Doctor stated that this disease is genetic than again the CPS are acting within their guideline to be asking these questions.

Evalles if you read any of those links that you brought over or the ones I gave you will see that this didn't have to happen. There is a reason relatives should not be married to one another.

Bill M. reminds me of a friend I have. JB. he and his brother got into a car accident and JB had to have a steel plate put into his head. JB was never really the same after that but his sense of humor has kept us all in stitches. JB thinks he is a warewolf.

Whenever there is a full moon he goes out into the middle of the field butt naked and howls at the moon. We don't know if it is the steel plate that makes him do this or if it is just JB's excuse to do and say the things he does.

I think Bill M. is howling at the moon for whatever reason. And the excuse he is using is the FLDS. Maybe he should back up some of what he says with a link or two. And use real names and comments from the people he talks about.

Just continuing my train of thought, using other's research. Oh next I need to go back and post my links.

:shrug: [/*]

[juliekan]

Originally posted by walton
http://www.indianpediatrics.net/may2007/may-371-374.htm

All patients with known familial disease suspected genetic disease due to age below 1 year and patients with life-threatening symptoms such as coagulopathy, profound cytopenia or neurological disease should receive therapy. In familial cases this has to be followed by stem cell transplantation (SCT) as the only curative disease(7).

http://www.histio.org/site/c.kiKTL4PQLvF/*.1851483/k.7487/Hemophagocytic_Syndromes.htm

We currently know that HLH occurs either on the basis of a genetic defect or as a secondary form with underlying diseases such as infections, cancer, or rheumatic diseases. In the primary form, also known as familial hemophagocytic lymphohistiocytosis (FHL or FHLH), defective genes are inherited from both the mother and the father (autosomal recessive inheritance).

http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produkte.asp?Aktion=ShowFulltext&ArtikelNr=74232&Ausgabe=229718&ProduktNr=223829

Hemophagocytic lymphohistiocytosis (HLH) occurs mostly in infants and children and is characterized by fever, cytopenia, hepatic dysfunction, lipidemia, hepatosplenomegaly and disseminated intravascular coagulopathy. The disease is classified as familial (FHL) or nonfamilial (secondary) HLH [1, 2]. Since diagnostic criteria were established, accurate diagnoses are easily made in cases of slowly progressing disease based on laboratory markers such as serum ferritin levels, natural killer (NK) activity and the presence of hemophagocytes in the bone marrow.


Lots of info. [/*]

Thanks a LOT Walton.

[juliekan]

Originally posted by Mimi428
Medvecky refers to an article in 2003 entitled Hemophagocytic Lymphohistiocytosis Masquerading as Child Abuse: Presentation of Three Cases and Review of Central Nervous System Findings in Hemophagocytic Lymphohistiocytosis to make his assertion that the family is in the same boat as the 3 cases referenced to in the article - here's a link to that article -

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/111/5/e636?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=hlh&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT

In 2004, the same pediatric journal published the following, which thoroughly refuted 2 out of 3 of the cases the first group said were HLH ONLY, with no child abuse present.

Here's that article -

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/114/4/1131-a?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=hlh&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT

Hemophagocytic Lymphohistiocytosis

Excerpt. . .

Rooms et al1 discuss central nervous system (CNS) hemophagocytic lymphohistiocytosis (HLH) as a confounder for abusive head trauma. Case 2 was our patient and was reviewed by one of the authors at the parents' request.

The 4-month-old child presented with seizures, obtundation, chest bruise, bilateral retinal hemorrhage (preretinal, intraretinal, and subretinal) extending from ora serrata to ora serrata, and vitreous hemorrhage. Computed tomography of the head showed acute parenchymal and subdural hemorrhage (parafalcine, tentorial, right frontal), and cerebral edema. Prothrombin time and liver enzymes were elevated, and anemia was present. Elevated triglycerides and conjugated bilirubin were noted but not initially recognized as suggestive of HLH. The parents denied trauma and significant disease, and abusive head trauma was suspected. A craniotomy specimen of the right frontal leptomeninges and subdural hemorrhage subsequently contained atypical hemophagocytic histiocytes, suggestive of HLH.

Autopsy revealed focal sparse histiocytic infiltrates of the leptomeninges and perivascular spaces without involvement of the parenchyma, giant cell hepatitis, and optic nerve subdural and subarachnoid hemorrhage. HLH infiltrates and necrosis were not present in the retinas or the optic nerve hemorrhages.
The literature describing the clinical presentation, natural history, and neuropathology of HLH is voluminous and was reviewed before certification of the cause of death.

We found no reports of HLH presenting with acute fatal intracranial hemorrhage. CNS hemorrhage is rare and is reported to be clinically insignificant. Focal retinal hemorrhages are described in only 2 patients with advanced disease.2,3 They did not resemble the retinal hemorrhages in our patient, which were of the type thought to be most specific for abusive head trauma.4 Several patients with extensive ocular HLH had no retinal hemorrhage.5–8

The patient's fatal brain edema, intracranial hemorrhage, and retinal hemorrhage are highly consistent with abusive head trauma and have not been described in HLH. Our opinion is that the patient died from abusive head trauma and that HLH was a comorbid condition. The same may also be true of case 1 in the Rooms et al article.1


Much more on both links. [/*]

Very informative Mimi, not saying it applies to this case JMO

[juliekan]

Originally posted by walton


Sandy had posted that she had been married before. This is her 2nd marriage.

Here is more: http://caringbridge.org/cb/viewJournal.do?method=executeInit

We now have the Paypal Donation link on the sidebar up and running on the Blogspot site. Feel free to leave a donation. The monies go directly to the parents for their child's care and for their basic living expenses (toiletries, food, gas) as they are living out of the PICU room four hours away from home. The Daughertys also are separated from their 5 other children as they tend to Joshua's needs.


While your there check out the Guest Book. Interesting note from a Susa Blackmore and of course "Grandpa" Bill Medvecky. [/*]

Who is tending the 5 other children? Sorry if this has been addressed, just working my way through the posts. And again, 2 parents don't have to be there for one child. One can go home with the other children, and then they can switch. thousands of parents have had to deal with this dilemma.

[juliekan]

Originally posted by Bratlings
HLH is commonly mistaken for shaken baby syndrome which would explain why CPS was initially involved.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/111/5/e636 [/*]

Good article. Thanks.

[juliekan]

Originally posted by evalles


Show me a link that says the only way to get HLH is if your parents are related. [/*]

Or it could be shaken baby syndrome?

[juliekan]

Originally posted by evalles


Then why have you spent so much time looking for links on this illness ?

Oh, I get it, it's just not ok for anybody else.

And it's just not true that the only way to get HLS is from parents that are related.

Wasn't that what Walton inferred ?

Why don't you expect a link ? [/*]

"Then why have you spent so much time looking for links on this illness?"...and she sent you helpful links for the family to find help in lodging, etc. So what has the family said, have you contacted them?

[juliekan]

Originally posted by Mimi428


You are putting the cart before the horse.

PROVE that this family is FLDS - which is exactly what this board is about.

If they aren't, the whole sad story is O/T. [/*]

And now I will stop on my rant about this story that is actually probably O/T, since we cannot prove that this family is actually FLDS. Sorry to inflict JMO on everyone. But thanks for letting me crib from your great notes.:)

[juliekan]

Originally posted by evalles
http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/jun/23/cps-actions-damaged-children/

Instead, CPS opted for the mass amputation of the mothers from their children. They were taken from the foggy and distant danger they faced and thrown into the clear and present danger of foster care.

One need only read the accounts of the only neutral eyewitnesses during the children's first days in captivity, mental health professionals sent in by the state, to understand the harm.

"I witnessed a small boy, maybe 3 years old, walking along the rows of cots with a little pillow saying, "I need someone to rock me, I just want to be rocked, I want to find a rocking chair," wrote one of the mental health professionals. "Two CPS workers were following him and writing in their notebooks, but not speaking to him or comforting him."

The observations are supported by research. A major national study of foster care "alumni" found they had twice the level of post-traumatic stress disorder of Gulf War veterans and only 20 percent could be said to be doing well

Johana Scot is executive director of the Parent Guidance Center in Austin. Richard Wexler is executive director of the National Coalition for Child Protection Reform. [/*]


Please note this was from an opinion column

[juliekan]

Originally posted by evalles
CPS, judge threatened American foundation
http://gosanangelo.com/news/2008/jun/19/cps-judge-threatened-american-foundation/

The Texas Legislature has given clear instructions as to when CPS may remove children from their homes. The Texas Supreme Court and Third Court of Appeals both declared that CPS violated those instructions and that none of the FLDS children should ever have been removed. Neither court granted any more authority over the FLDS to Walther or CPS than what they had already in the Texas statutes. They said simply, CPS and Judge Walther, you screwed up. Send the children home. If any CPS intervention later becomes warranted, the law gives the judge the power to order it. Follow the law.

Abuse of power often begins when sensational rumors are spun into a "noble cause" that appears to justify authorities in violating the rule of law. Authorities are rarely prosecuted for these violations, so they tend to move aggressively. Later, they insist their motives are good and, therefore, their violations should be overlooked. Former North Carolina prosecutor Mike Nifong - who lied to the court in a trumped-up rape prosecution of Duke University lacrosse players - followed this pattern and ended up in jail.

But the harm inflicted by Nifong on his victims was minor compared with independent eyewitness accounts of the distress, humiliation and physical abuse inflicted by CPS on the men, women and children of the YFZ Ranch. It should shock the conscience of the people of Texas. One witness described it as a Nazi concentration camp. Another, who saw the floor of the building "slick with tears," said it made her "ashamed to be a Texan." This was not Texas' finest hour. [/*]

THIS IS ALSO FROM AN OPINION PAGE, submitted to the paper by Kurt S. Schulzke, an attorney in Woodstock, GA

I'd like to see some of the posters here write an opinion into this paper :)

[Roux]

Originally posted by lotty
I thought this was an interesting OP-ED piece. It seems the writer did a lot of work. As always JMO/IMO.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/255354#
Op-Ed: Some Historical Perspective on the FLDS
Posted May 29, 2008 by Sykos Masters in Religion | 12 comments | 742 views

At some point in the future, the offenders within the FLDS may be held accountable for their actions. Legal 'justice' will be served, 'appropriate punishment' will be meted out, it may even delay similar abuses in the future. All this is true ..... [/*]

Lotty thank you so much for posting this article. No doubt there will always be people that will fall for anything preached in the name of religion and Christianity, and far too few who "test the spirits to see if they are of God."

There is no scriptual basis in the Bible for plural or celestial marriage as a condition to entry to heaven. The only requirement is acceptance and acknowledgement of the atoning, sacrificial blood of Jesus Christ.

So the FLDS are teaching and preaching lies which have led to polygamy, mistreatment of men, abuse of women and children, fraud and theft. Those things are not of God and the fruit of Joseph Smith's tree is putrid.

If they are not held accountable in this world, they will in the next.

IMO and MOO

[lotty]

Originally posted by Roux


Lotty thank you so much for posting this article. No doubt there will always be people that will fall for anything preached in the name of religion and Christianity, and far too few who "test the spirits to see if they are of God."

There is no scriptual basis in the Bible for plural or celestial marriage as a condition to entry to heaven. The only requirement is acceptance and acknowledgement of the atoning, sacrificial blood of Jesus Christ.

So the FLDS are teaching and preaching lies which have led to polygamy, mistreatment of men, abuse of women and children, fraud and theft. Those things are not of God and the fruit of Joseph Smith's tree is putrid.

If they are not held accountable in this world, they will in the next.

IMO and MOO [/*]

You are welcome. I'm not very articulate myself :( .

[Roux]

Originally posted by lotty


You are welcome. I'm not very articulate myself :( . [/*]

Neither am I very articulate and that's why I so appreciate Imperfect, Juliekan, Walton, Mimi and everyone else who does such a good job in debating. I miss GollyGee Whiz; I think she left because of a couple of posters.

[lotty]

Originally posted by Roux


Neither am I very articulate and that's why I so appreciate Imperfect, Juliekan, Walton, Mimi and everyone else who does such a good job in debating. I miss GollyGee Whiz; I think she left because of a couple of posters. [/*]

I miss Golly Gee Whiz also; I think I've seen her posting on another board. I didn't sign up for it though...this one and lurking on a few others is enough to keep me busy.

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by evalles


And he was in jail when they took the kids.
Not all members were in total agreement with Jeff's teachings.

[/*]

How many members who did NOT show total agreement with Jeff's do you think lived at the YFZ ranch?

I has been very well covered that Warren got rid of people who did not demonstrate total agreement with his teachings.

Men who disagreed with him had their wives & children taken away from them. Women & children were reassigned to other men. None of them had any say in it, their prophet demanded perfect obedience.

Disagreeing with Warren resulted in punishments & threats of eternal damnation. You should know that, it has been written about for several years.

If you want to skip discussing the splinter groups who follow different men as THEIR prophet, fine. Don't do it. That's a whole other discussion. But WARREN'S group demands a show of total agreement with WARREN.

[lotty]

Originally posted by Mimi428


How many members who did NOT show total agreement with Jeff's do you think lived at the YFZ ranch?

I has been very well covered that Warren got rid of people who did not demonstrate total agreement with his teachings.

Men who disagreed with him had their wives & children taken away from them. Women & children were reassigned to other men. None of them had any say in it, their prophet demanded perfect obedience.

Disagreeing with Warren resulted in punishments & threats of eternal damnation. You should know that, it has been written about for several years.

If you want to skip discussing the splinter groups who follow different men as THEIR prophet, fine. Don't do it. That's a whole other discussion. But WARREN'S group demands a show of total agreement with WARREN. [/*]
Wasn't YFZ for the most faithful, loyal and pure members (that would be: faithful, loyal and pure to Warren, since the religion is changed at the whim of the prophet)? Since I myself have not heard Warren Jeffs actually say this...it is ofcourse, as always JMO/IMO. ;)

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by lotty

Wasn't YFZ for the most faithful, loyal and pure members (that would be: faithful, loyal and pure to Warren, since the religion is changed at the whim of the prophet)? Since I myself have not heard Warren Jeffs actually say this...it is ofcourse, as always JMO/IMO. ;) [/*]

My recollection is that the sheriff indicated that to be the case & I know I have read about it before all of this came into the news. It may have been in the long article that was first published in the Austin Chronicle a couple of years ago. Now whether the sheriff came to that conclusion independently, or whether he was given that information from the residents he interacted with, I surely do not know.

JMO

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by lotty
I thought this was an interesting OP-ED piece. It seems the writer did a lot of work. As always JMO/IMO.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/255354#
Op-Ed: Some Historical Perspective on the FLDS
Posted May 29, 2008 by Sykos Masters in Religion | 12 comments | 742 views

[/*]

Thanks for finding that, lotty - much appreciated. I finally had some time this morning to read this lengthy article. IMO, the author did a fine job of outlining the beginnings of this group, how they came to exist away from the mainstream LDS, why they chose such remote areas to live in (from the time of Brigham Young on). He wrote well about the leaders' necessity of keeping the whole group isolated, how that is accomplished & why that insularity has turned into the genetic mess of inbreeding that has been manifested today.

I also noticed in the comments section that he refers to some other things which seem to indicate that he has had some 'up close & personal' associations with the FLDS.

JMO

[walton]

I just saw a part of this special lastnight. Did anyone else see it?

The parts that I was able to watch was very interesting and I would like to see/ read the whole thing. Does anyone know if transcripts are available on line? I'll look again but I couldn't see anything.

I saw Ken Driggs, Rick Ross and I think Dan Fischer was even there. AND Marci Hamilton. Man I wish I wouldn't fall asleep when I turn on the tube.

http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2008/06/flds-sect-relig.html

Like other children on the ranch – male and female – Nicholson was constantly told to “keep sweet,” which meant, be obedient and smile at all times, no matter what. Unquestioning worship of the group’s prophet was paramount.

When Nicholson was growing up, that prophet was Warren Jeffs, who is now in jail as an accomplice to rape. Jeffs and other leaders strictly controlled who and what entered the FLDS compounds (TV and movies weren’t allowed, but ovulation testing kits were ordered in bulk).

“If you control everything that goes into the mind, you can control the mind,” says cult expert Rick Ross, who was interviewed for the special.


A short video:http://video.aol.com/video-detail/religion-or-mind-control/1922364621

[evalles]

Originally posted by juliekan


THIS IS ALSO FROM AN OPINION PAGE, submitted to the paper by Kurt S. Schulzke, an attorney in Woodstock, GA

I'd like to see some of the posters here write an opinion into this paper :) [/*]


The "cult expert" who said the children shouldn't have been returned was giving her opinion also. Anyone that doesn't have first hand knowledge of the situation is giving their opinion.

Unlike the outright lies that were told by Malonis about her client, an opinion can be changed as new facts emerge.

Not many of the comments on the news stories about this case support the opinions of most on this board.

[evalles]

Originally posted by juliekan


"Then why have you spent so much time looking for links on this illness?"...and she sent you helpful links for the family to find help in lodging, etc. So what has the family said, have you contacted them? [/*]

I wasn't the one who complained about the discussion being off topic, it's hypocritical to post about a topic yourself and then tell someone else they shouldn't because they've decided it was off topic.
I had no problem with anybody commenting on this story, and I spent about 2 minutes looking for links on this illness.

[evalles]

Originally posted by juliekan


Or it could be shaken baby syndrome? [/*]


Not according to the doctors. The doctors say HLH.

[walton]

Originally posted by evalles



The "cult expert" who said the children shouldn't have been returned was giving her opinion also. Anyone that doesn't have first hand knowledge of the situation is giving their opinion.

Unlike the outright lies that were told by Malonis about her client, an opinion can be changed as new facts emerge.

Not many of the comments on the news stories about this case support the opinions of most on this board. [/*]

How do you know Malonis lied? And what did she lie about?

[evalles]

Originally posted by juliekan


Who is tending the 5 other children? Sorry if this has been addressed, just working my way through the posts. And again, 2 parents don't have to be there for one child. One can go home with the other children, and then they can switch. thousands of parents have had to deal with this dilemma. [/*]

If a child is dying, both parents should be there.

[evalles]

Originally posted by walton


How do you know Malonis lied? And what did she lie about? [/*]

She told the world Teresa has a child and now she admits it's not true, but that's ok because she got the info from CPS and LE.

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by walton
I just saw a part of this special lastnight. Did anyone else see it?

[/*]

I have not seen this MSNBC special,“Religion or Mind Control?”, but I'm going to do a search of the TV listings & hope they will be showing it again.

This part in the article in your link just makes my stomach turn over.


When Nicholson was growing up, that prophet was Warren Jeffs, who is now in jail as an accomplice to rape. Jeffs and other leaders strictly controlled who and what entered the FLDS compounds (TV and movies weren’t allowed, but ovulation testing kits were ordered in bulk).

Females subjugated to the point that their lives are little more than being tested for fertility & then impregnated. That is the existence of a domestic animal like a COW - NOT a human being!

:flamemad:

[evalles]

Originally posted by walton
Here is a story about Kaziah the "Goat Woman".

In the years after 1982, Kaziah worked sporadically on Prisons of the Mind (published by Desert Blossom Publishing, 1997) and tried to establish herself as an artist. Her early attempts were dogged by a frailty of spirit. Kaziah had not escaped the horrors of 18 years of living hell without some scars. Night after night, she would wake screaming, bathed in sweat so deep you could almost swim in it. "I felt as if my past would never leave me. I dreaded the need to sleep. Every night the same dream and the same ending, the same evil face that had haunted me night and day for 18 years persecuted me in freedom."

Finally driven nearly to suicide, she reached out to God. "Take this burden from me," she pleaded. The date was April 6, 1992. The following day Kaziah heard that the man in her nightmares, the man who had abused her body and soul for so long, was dead.


http://www.polygamybooks.com/lawtlc.htm

This is just some of what Kaziah has been doing. Here is a short video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=it7NQBN-lO0

:rose: [/*]

Is this about the FLDS? Because Mimi chastised me for posting something she felt was O/T. Remember Joshua's parents ? Since they might not be FLDS, she said it shouldn't be discussed.
She'll probably think it's ok for you though. You agree with her.

[walton]

Originally posted by evalles


She told the world Teresa has a child and now she admits it's not true, but that's ok because she got the info from CPS and LE. [/*]

Link?

Warren confessed to his brother in jail which was taped that he had inappropriate relations with his daughter/sister.

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy Check the video section.

[evalles]

Originally posted by walton


Link?

Warren confessed to his brother in jail which was taped that he had inappropriate relations with his daughter/sister.

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy Check the video section. [/*]

What does that have to do with Malonis lying and saying she had a child ? Natalie being a liar has nothing to do with Warren being a perv.

[evalles]

Originally posted by walton


Link?

Warren confessed to his brother in jail which was taped that he had inappropriate relations with his daughter/sister.

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy Check the video section. [/*]

My comment was based on a link that was previously posted on this board. Is it a rule that if you post a comment on something that a link was already provided for, that you have to go back through all the posts so that you can provide it again ?

[walton]

Originally posted by evalles


Is this about the FLDS? Because Mimi chastised me for posting something she felt was O/T. Remember Joshua's parents ? Since they might not be FLDS, she said it shouldn't be discussed.
She'll probably think it's ok for you though. You agree with her. [/*]

No she isn't of the FLDS faith.

I actually brought this story here for you evalles. It is a true story. It is a story about a strong woman who has gone thru a lot. Her courage and her innerstrength is unbelievable.

But you have to understand someone elses pain in order to understand what strength that actually takes.

I also thought that you could see what she is doing for the families of soldiers that have died. Maybe just maybe I thought you might share that with Bill M.

It was just a gesture evalles. I thought you would appreciate it.

[walton]

Originally posted by evalles


My comment was based on a link that was previously posted on this board. Is it a rule that if you post a comment on something that a link was already provided for, that you have to go back through all the posts so that you can provide it again ? [/*]

I would think that if you are going to call someone a liar it would be the appropriate thing to do is ....back it up with a link.

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by evalles


She told the world Teresa has a child and now she admits it's not true, but that's ok because she got the info from CPS and LE. [/*]

Malonis stated to the judge that she SUSPECTED Teresa had a child.

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9669956?IADID=Search-www.sltrib.com-www.sltrib.com

Now if your contention is she stated unequivocably that Teresa had a child, find a source for it. TIA

[Roux]

Originally posted by evalles


What does that have to do with Malonis lying and saying she had a child ? Natalie being a liar has nothing to do with Warren being a perv. [/*]

Don't you think it quite possible that Malonis made an honest mistake and not an intentional lie regarding Teresa's "child"? I agree that it was unfortunate, but I'm willing to wait for more to be revealed in due course.

It seems entirely plausible to me that because of the obfuscation and interference of FLDS, the truth about Teresa was clouded. Obviously it's to their interest to cover up, IF there is anything amiss. IIRC it was the truth will prevail site that came out publicly with intimate details of Teresa.

[Roux]

Originally posted by Mimi428


Malonis stated to the judge that she SUSPECTED Teresa had a child.

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9669956?IADID=Search-www.sltrib.com-www.sltrib.com

Now if your contention is she stated unequivocably that Teresa had a child, find a source for it. TIA [/*]


The first sentence of that article caught my eye, inasmuch as some have claimed that Ms. Malonis breached the atty-client privilege: "An FLDS teenager is taking a dispute with her attorney public..."

That would seem to indicate that Teresa (in actuality probably Willie, Parker, & Annette) were the first to release letters and emails to the sltrib.

[Mimi428]

In all the fuss about Natalie Malonis, I completely forgot that Teresa Jeffs' GAL, Connie Gauwain, jointly filed the motion for a restraining order against Willie. She & Malonis agreed, IOW.



http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9655230?IADID=Search-www.sltrib.com-www.sltrib.com (6-21-08)

A Texas judge has temporarily barred an FLDS spokesman accused of intimidation from contacting a daughter of polygamous sect leader Warren S. Jeffs.
Attorney Natalie Malonis, joined by guardian ad litem Connie Gauwain, filed a motion Friday asking for a restraining order against Willie Jessop.
Fifty-first District Judge Barbara Walther granted the request just before court closed. The judge also ordered Annette Jeffs, the girl's mother, to notify law enforcement if Jessop attempts to contact her.

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by Roux



The first sentence of that article caught my eye, inasmuch as some have claimed that Ms. Malonis breached the atty-client privilege: "An FLDS teenager is taking a dispute with her attorney public..."

That would seem to indicate that Teresa (in actuality probably Willie, Parker, & Annette) were the first to release letters and emails to the sltrib. [/*]

Like her or dislike her, agree with her or disagree with her, I really think it is safe to assume that Natalie Malonis knows what does & does NOT violate the attorney/client privilege.

Not everyone is as gullible & malcontented as those who don't have the sense of a gnat & actually believe physicians & attorneys write in the fashion of the bogus letters that have appeared on the pro-FLDS websites.

Willie, Annette, Parker, Teresa, et al are all standing with egg on their collective faces with the foolishness of their claims - including this latest one of Malonis violating the attorney/client privilege.

JMNVHO

[evalles]

Originally posted by Imperfect
From the article lotty linked to:

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/255354#



And this:



And this:

[/*]


This opinion is really interesting.

This link is to:
Op-Ed: Some Historical Perspective on the FLDS

A little history on OP-ED.

[edit] Op Ed page
While standard editorial pages have been printed by newspapers for many centuries, the first modern op-ed page was created in 1921 by Herbert Bayard Swope of The New York Evening World. When he took over as editor in 1920, he realized that the page opposite the editorials, was "a catchall for book reviews, society boilerplate, and obituaries."[1] He is quoted as writing:

"It occurred to me that nothing is more interesting than opinion when opinion is interesting, so I devised a method of cleaning off the page opposite the editorial, which became the most important in America... and thereon I decided to print opinions, ignoring facts."


"I decided to print opinions, ignoring facts."

Interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Op-ed#Op_Ed_page

[evalles]

Originally posted by Mimi428


Like her or dislike her, agree with her or disagree with her, I really think it is safe to assume that Natalie Malonis knows what does & does NOT violate the attorney/client privilege.

Not everyone is as gullible & malcontented as those who don't have the sense of a gnat & actually believe physicians & attorneys write in the fashion of the bogus letters that have appeared on the pro-FLDS websites.

Willie, Annette, Parker, Teresa, et al are all standing with egg on their collective faces with the foolishness of their claims - including this latest one of Malonis violating the attorney/client privilege.

JMNVHO [/*]

I haven't seen anything showing that they have egg on their face.

[walton]

Originally posted by Mimi428
In all the fuss about Natalie Malonis, I completely forgot that Teresa Jeffs' GAL, Connie Gauwain, jointly filed the motion for a restraining order against Willie. She & Malonis agreed, IOW.



http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9655230?IADID=Search-www.sltrib.com-www.sltrib.com (6-21-08)

A Texas judge has temporarily barred an FLDS spokesman accused of intimidation from contacting a daughter of polygamous sect leader Warren S. Jeffs.
Attorney Natalie Malonis, joined by guardian ad litem Connie Gauwain, filed a motion Friday asking for a restraining order against Willie Jessop.
Fifty-first District Judge Barbara Walther granted the request just before court closed. The judge also ordered Annette Jeffs, the girl's mother, to notify law enforcement if Jessop attempts to contact her. [/*]

I don't believe that restraining orders are just ordered at a whim. The Judge and the lawyers involved had some background info that warranted a restraining order. jmo

I have not seen anything that Malonis has done to make me think she has anything but the girls best interest in mind. again jmo

[evalles]

Originally posted by Roux



The first sentence of that article caught my eye, inasmuch as some have claimed that Ms. Malonis breached the atty-client privilege: "An FLDS teenager is taking a dispute with her attorney public..."

That would seem to indicate that Teresa (in actuality probably Willie, Parker, & Annette) were the first to release letters and emails to the sltrib. [/*]

Didn't you see Malonis on Nancy Grace? That was way before Teresa went public.
Once Teresa's identity was known, I think she wanted to clear up the misinformation.

[evalles]

Originally posted by walton


I don't believe that restraining orders are just ordered at a whim. The Judge and the lawyers involved had some background info that warranted a restraining order. jmo

I have not seen anything that Malonis has done to make me think she has anything but the girls best interest in mind. again jmo [/*]


Really, Walther's removed over 400 children in violation of Texas' own statutes, a restraining order is nothing.

[lotty]

Originally posted by evalles



This opinion is really interesting.

This link is to:
Op-Ed: Some Historical Perspective on the FLDS

A little history on OP-ED.

[edit] Op Ed page
While standard editorial pages have been printed by newspapers for many centuries, the first modern op-ed page was created in 1921 by Herbert Bayard Swope of The New York Evening World. When he took over as editor in 1920, he realized that the page opposite the editorials, was "a catchall for book reviews, society boilerplate, and obituaries."[1] He is quoted as writing:

"It occurred to me that nothing is more interesting than opinion when opinion is interesting, so I devised a method of cleaning off the page opposite the editorial, which became the most important in America... and thereon I decided to print opinions, ignoring facts."


"I decided to print opinions, ignoring facts."

Interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Op-ed#Op_Ed_page [/*]

JMO Ofcourse, this is why I posted it with the writer's headline of Op-Ed...and why in posting about it I wrote OP-ED.
Everyone is certainly free to form their own opinions. I certainly wouldn't want to feed mere opinion as fact.
My opinion was that the writer had done a lot of work...plenty of valid historical content...before writing this piece.
I post on both sides, depending on what I'm reading on any given day. Yes, I am quite sure my bias shows. I try to remember to post with JMO or any of the other abbreviations to clarify that it is my opinion, sometimes I forget...please forgive me, I am quite human. I generally try to overlook others foibles as well...We are all here giving opinions, and nothing more. What information can be backed up generally is through links. It helps keep the roar down.
Now as to anyone of us feeding facts. We must either all have first hand knowledge of YFZ...or undisputable fact. If that is the case then I'm sure no one here would be able to post. Where is the educational value in that? As always JMO/IMO.

[Roux]

Originally posted by evalles


Didn't you see Malonis on Nancy Grace? That was way before Teresa went public.
Once Teresa's identity was known, I think she wanted to clear up the misinformation. [/*]

I only saw Malonis once on NG and I distinctly remember that she did not divulge the name of her clients. As I am sure you recall, she had more than one FLDS client.

[Roux]

Originally posted by evalles



Really, Walther's removed over 400 children in violation of Texas' own statutes, a restraining order is nothing. [/*]

Evalles, the SC agreed with you and the children have been returned. Why do you keep harping on the removal? Can't we move on?

[walton]

Hey lotty I read the piece as well. I agreed with some parts and disagreed with others.

The person that did write this truly did spend a lot of time on it. There is so much to this whole story that it often tangles up with everything.

Thank you for bringing the link over.

[walton]

Originally posted by Roux


I only saw Malonis once on NG and I distinctly remember that she did not divulge the name of her clients. As I am sure you recall, she had more than one FLDS client. [/*]

I saw her on Nancy as well. I thought she was very professional and got the impression that she was a very smart lady and chose her words wisely. jmo

[lotty]

Originally posted by Roux


I only saw Malonis once on NG and I distinctly remember that she did not divulge the name of her clients. As I am sure you recall, she had more than one FLDS client. [/*]
http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_9669956
Teresa Jeffs, 16, a daughter of polygamous sect leader Warren S. Jeffs, gave The Salt Lake Tribune on Sunday a copy of an e-mail she sent Natalie Malonis, of Flower Mound, Texas, after seeing news reports about her case. On Friday, Malonis won a court order banning contact between an FLDS spokesman and the girl.

JMO/IMO Who divulged the girls identity? Malonis or Jeffs? I wonder JMO/IMO.

[walton]

Originally posted by Imperfect
From another of lotty's contributions, on the links thread:

http://www.getreligion.org/?p=3577

This is a response to the article about Brooke Adams' reporting:

[/*]

I had never seen this before. Thanks.

I agree Brooke is a very good reporter. She and Trent Nelson have had me going back to the Trib for info for 4 years now.

[evalles]

Originally posted by Imperfect


Not sure what your point is, but I'm aware it's an opinion piece, interspersed with bits of documented history of the LDS/FLDS. [/*]

Oh, Juliekan commented on every post I made yesterday that included a link, that they were opinion based articles.

I like to read the opinions of others.
I'd assume that most posters would know when an article is based on opinion and not fact, without someone following behind and noting it.

[lotty]

Originally posted by walton
Hey lotty I read the piece as well. I agreed with some parts and disagreed with others.

The person that did write this truly did spend a lot of time on it. There is so much to this whole story that it often tangles up with everything.

Thank you for bringing the link over. [/*]

ITA. Very often in reading an article or piece I generally come across something that has been disproved or that is actually something to do with another group, or is an opinion that I don't totally agree with. So I take what seems valuable to me and disregard the rest...just like everyone else. As always JMO/IMO.

[walton]

Originally posted by lotty

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_9669956
Teresa Jeffs, 16, a daughter of polygamous sect leader Warren S. Jeffs, gave The Salt Lake Tribune on Sunday a copy of an e-mail she sent Natalie Malonis, of Flower Mound, Texas, after seeing news reports about her case. On Friday, Malonis won a court order banning contact between an FLDS spokesman and the girl.

JMO/IMO Who divulged the girls identity? Malonis or Jeffs? I wonder JMO/IMO. [/*]

T. Jeffs did when she sent the e-mail. Teresa Jeffs, 16, a daughter of polygamous sect leader Warren S. Jeffs, gave The Salt Lake Tribune on Sunday a copy of an e-mail she sent Natalie Malonis, of Flower Mound, Texas, after seeing news reports about her case. On Friday, Malonis won a court order banning contact between an FLDS spokesman and the girl.

She also sent e-mails to the Deseret news and they are supposedly showing them on the Free the FLDS Children web site.
The very same site that Rod Parker had said that the owner Bill M. had listed the Judges home address and phone number.

Now if Rod Parker, Willie and the FLDS truly cared about T. Jeffs why would they post personal information about T. Jeffs on the internet. Is it true stuff? Again there are no links proving it true.

[lotty]

Originally posted by walton


I had never seen this before. Thanks.

I agree Brooke is a very good reporter. She and Trent Nelson have had me going back to the Trib for info for 4 years now. [/*]

It was nice to see credit given where it is due. I agree with the writer that Brooke has more insight into the FLDS than any other journalist in the country. Daphne Branham for Canada as well. These two (as well as you Walton) have probably forgotten more about the FLDS than I will ever know. Trent Nelson is an amazing photographer, I have read some of his blogs and I can understand his point of view. I often go to Brooke's blog as well. As always JMO/IMO.

[evalles]

Originally posted by Roux


Evalles, the SC agreed with you and the children have been returned. Why do you keep harping on the removal? Can't we move on? [/*]

That the children were taken has always been the most important thing about this case for me. It's what started it all.
I think both higher court's decisions showed that Walther's did not act in accordance with the law.
If the past is an accurate indicator of the future, then IMO any decision Walther's makes on this case is suspect.

[lotty]

Originally posted by Imperfect


And you'll note that while many of us here don't agree with the decision of the higher courts, we aren't banging away at them in post after post.

Yet we keep reading post after post (and media report after media report) from those banging away at Texas CPS and Judge Walther for their decisions.

I'm not sure why CPS and Judge W are considered evil incarnate for doing what they felt was in the best interests of the children.

I don't feel the higher courts were doing anything more than their jobs, nor do I feel they were on a power trip, nor do I feel that they are a group of evil people who wish harm on the FLDS children.

They did their jobs. Just as CPS and Judge W did theirs.

IMO. [/*]
Imperfect,
ITA.
Would you say an imperfect system, run by imperfect people, in an imperfect world...nonetheless, I believe it is the best system in the world...even when I don't agree. As always JMO/IMO.

[walton]

Originally posted by lotty


It was nice to see credit given where it is due. I agree with the writer that Brooke has more insight into the FLDS than any other journalist in the country. Daphne Branham for Canada as well. These two (as well as you Walton) have probably forgotten more about the FLDS than I will ever know. Trent Nelson is an amazing photographer, I have read some of his blogs and I can understand his point of view. I often go to Brooke's blog as well. As always JMO/IMO. [/*]

I love to read. And I truly appreciate those that write. During the time that I've been following this story on the internet I am just amazed at all the journalists and writers out there. A whole new world opened up.

Before I found my way thru the computer and the internet... I wrote to many a places asking all my questions. The real letter in the mail type asking. This is soooo much easier.

[evalles]

Originally posted by Imperfect


And you'll note that while many of us here don't agree with the decision of the higher courts, we aren't banging away at them in post after post.

Yet we keep reading post after post (and media report after media report) from those banging away at Texas CPS and Judge Walther for their decisions.

I'm not sure why CPS and Judge W are considered evil incarnate for doing what they felt was in the best interests of the children.

I don't feel the higher courts were doing anything more than their jobs, nor do I feel they were on a power trip, nor do I feel that they are a group of evil people who wish harm on the FLDS children.

They did their jobs. Just as CPS and Judge W did theirs.

IMO. [/*]

They have to follow the laws while protecting the children, unless you feel they should be above the law.
If they had done their jobs well, they would have focused only on children that they could show were abused.
If they had, this circus would never have started.

[evalles]

Originally posted by lotty


JMO Ofcourse, this is why I posted it with the writer's headline of Op-Ed...and why in posting about it I wrote OP-ED.
Everyone is certainly free to form their own opinions. I certainly wouldn't want to feed mere opinion as fact.
My opinion was that the writer had done a lot of work...plenty of valid historical content...before writing this piece.
I post on both sides, depending on what I'm reading on any given day. Yes, I am quite sure my bias shows. I try to remember to post with JMO or any of the other abbreviations to clarify that it is my opinion, sometimes I forget...please forgive me, I am quite human. I generally try to overlook others foibles as well...We are all here giving opinions, and nothing more. What information can be backed up generally is through links. It helps keep the roar down.
Now as to anyone of us feeding facts. We must either all have first hand knowledge of YFZ...or undisputable fact. If that is the case then I'm sure no one here would be able to post. Where is the educational value in that? As always JMO/IMO. [/*]

I agree with everything you said, which is why I found it offensive that Juliekan only commented on my posts that they were just opinion based articles.
Regardless of if I agree or disagree with a poster, I learn something from them.
And then I learn something else when looking for information to refute what they're stating.
I honestly think that's the reason that the posters on this board know more on this subject than on any other I've visited.
I don't think we'd know much of anything or be able to continue the thread based only on the facts released.
It would get rather boring.

[Roux]

Originally posted by evalles


They have to follow the laws while protecting the children, unless you feel they should be above the law.
If they had done their jobs well, they would have focused only on children that they could show were abused.
If they had, this circus would never have started. [/*]

Why can't you let it go? Of course we don't think they should be above the law. Of course we realize they were doing the best they could under the circumstances. Of course we realize this wouldn't have turned into a circus with the aiding and abetting of the FLDS themselves.

And of course we realize that we must wait a while longer for everything to play out. In the meantime, the children are returned to their parents. Get over it, please.

[evalles]

Originally posted by walton


No she isn't of the FLDS faith.

I actually brought this story here for you evalles. It is a true story. It is a story about a strong woman who has gone thru a lot. Her courage and her innerstrength is unbelievable.

But you have to understand someone elses pain in order to understand what strength that actually takes.

I also thought that you could see what she is doing for the families of soldiers that have died. Maybe just maybe I thought you might share that with Bill M.

It was just a gesture evalles. I thought you would appreciate it. [/*]

I'm sorry, I'm just a little irritated by some of the hypocrisy I feel is directed towards me on this board, I shouldn't have taken it out on you and I apologize. I have no excuse as you weren't the object of my irritation.

[evalles]

Originally posted by Roux


Why can't you let it go? Of course we don't think they should be above the law. Of course we realize they were doing the best they could under the circumstances. Of course we realize this wouldn't have turned into a circus with the aiding and abetting of the FLDS themselves.

And of course we realize that we must wait a while longer for everything to play out. In the meantime, the children are returned to their parents. Get over it, please. [/*]

But I thought the FLDS children and what happened to them was the purpose of this board ? :shrug:

[walton]

Originally posted by evalles


They have to follow the laws while protecting the children, unless you feel they should be above the law.
If they had done their jobs well, they would have focused only on children that they could show were abused.
If they had, this circus would never have started. [/*]

No evalles you are wrong. If the FLDS would be obeying the laws like everyone else this wouldn't have started.

If they wouldn't be breaking the laws of the land this might not have happened.

Plural marriages. Marriages involving young children. If someone or anyone of those that you say doesn't follow Warrens rules would have spoken out this might not have happened.

Recorded abuses that involve some of the men living at that compound.

If they would have had legal documents birth certificates, drivers licenses, old tax forms, new tax forms, proof of identification.. etc. this might not have happened.

If they hadn't hidden a man wanted by the law (Warren Jeffs) this might not have happened.


No evalles. This isn't where it started. Those in the FLDS and those that stood by and did nothing allowed this to happen. No one else.

jmo

[lotty]

Originally posted by evalles


But I thought the FLDS children and what happened to them was the purpose of this board ? :shrug: [/*]

It is and it started off with Warren Jeffs' possible future trial. There is so much...the thingy was changed during Memorial Weekend, remember. The potential upcoming trial involves what happened to a child of the FLDS. There is also the Parley Dutson case which will reconvene July 1, he too was child of the FLDS, he is only 19 now.
There is still the rest of the Grand Jury, July 22(?), do you think there will be indictments handed down? In one of the articles I linked... the one about Brooke Adams, it states Warren Jeffs family is on the Bishop's List...but not the copy I saw. How much do you think is possibly withheld from the public? I know we are not privy to all of the information that was seized, I'm sure some is inconsequential...but how much do you think could potentially be damaging? Or do you think none of it is. It takes a very long time to go through papers. I wonder how far along they are? I am asking for your opinion...I don't want to argue it makes me tired, but I would love to hear from anyone...this stuff takes time. I've got time on my hands right now.:seeya:

[walton]

Originally posted by evalles


I'm sorry, I'm just a little irritated by some of the hypocrisy I feel is directed towards me on this board, I shouldn't have taken it out on you and I apologize. I have no excuse as you weren't the object of my irritation. [/*]

Thats ok evalles. Amazing story huh?

[walton]

Originally posted by lotty


It is and it started off with Warren Jeffs' possible future trial. There is so much...the thingy was changed during Memorial Weekend, remember. The potential upcoming trial involves what happened to a child of the FLDS. There is also the Parley Dutson case which will reconvene July 1, he too was child of the FLDS, he is only 19 now.
There is still the rest of the Grand Jury, July 22(?), do you think there will be indictments handed down? In one of the articles I linked... the one about Brooke Adams, it states Warren Jeffs family is on the Bishop's List...but not the copy I saw. How much do you think is possibly withheld from the public? I know we are not privy to all of the information that was seized, I'm sure some is inconsequential...but how much do you think could potentially be damaging? Or do you think none of it is. It takes a very long time to go through papers. I wonder how far along they are? I am asking for your opinion...I don't want to argue it makes me tired, but I would love to hear from anyone...this stuff takes time. I've got time on my hands right now.:seeya: [/*]

lol I know what you mean about the thingy change.

I think the original thingy was Current FLDS Prophet wanted by FBI and originally was posted in Current Crimes and then went into the Religion board and then off and then its own board.

But there is so much more about to come out. Warrens trial. What was he holding when he was captured? Who was listed as holding safe houses for him? Who were the owners of the vechiles that he had keys to?

Where did the good Doctor Barlow go? Where are the Allred boys? The Barlow brothers? Merril Jessop? Wendall Nielson?

Who is paying Rod Parker? And where does Willie get his monies?


Lots of questions.

[lotty]

Originally posted by walton


lol I know what you mean about the thingy change.

I think the original thingy was Current FLDS Prophet wanted by FBI and originally was posted in Current Crimes and then went into the Religion board and then off and then its own board.

But there is so much more about to come out. Warrens trial. What was he holding when he was captured? Who was listed as holding safe houses for him? Who were the owners of the vechiles that he had keys to?

Where did the good Doctor Barlow go? Where are the Allred boys? The Barlow brothers? Merril Jessop? Wendall Nielson?

Who is paying Rod Parker? And where does Willie get his monies?


Lots of questions. [/*]

I know...where to start. I would love to see the list of what was in that Escalade, Warren was picked up in. The safe houses I find very curious, two of them in Colorado were only 45 minutes (roughly) apart. Eight bedrooms, I'll have to find the link on that one.

So many men have disappeared. I haven't found anything on any of them turning up anywhere.

I would love to know who is paying Rod Parker.

Willie...there is a whole topic on it's own. I have a question about Willie, if there was no underage marriage going on, why did he make a blanket statement about the FLDS (I noticed it wasn't just YFZ) no longer performing underage marriage according to the laws of the states they are in? As always JMO/IMO.

[lotty]

Originally posted by Imperfect


Lotty -- first, LOL!

You are absolutely right, IMO. It takes so much time to go through evidence of this magnitude. All the stuff seized from the ranch, all the DNA test results, and all the background coming over from Colo City and Hildale.

Not only does it take time to sort through all that stuff, but each bit of evidence that points to criminal activity must be checked, double and triple-checked. The evidence that will ultimately be presented has to be substantiated within an inch of its life. So that's really, IMO, phase 3. First is the gathering of it, second is the sorting of it and putting the pieces together, and third is the validation process. I can't even imagine the enormousness of the task with regard to this case.

You asked if we think the evidence is potentially damaging. My answer is: absolutely. In fact, I read a quote by 'Satan's Accountant' (the man who's in charge of sorting out all the financial matters in Colo City/Hildale - his name is Bruce Wisan, IIRC), that said the stuff pulled from the ranch is a 'treasure trove' or something similar. He gets it all next, after Texas is done with it, according to the article I read. [/*]

ITA. So much information, huge.
Bruce Wisan, seems to be a very interesting man. 'Satan's Accountant' was a very informative article. He seems like a "to the point" kind of man. He also seems not to be afraid to grab the "bull by the horns."

[evalles]

I can't help but wonder if the decision to remove the kids was a smoke screen to gain access to the ranch.

[evalles]

Originally posted by Imperfect


This is a recording:

Child abuse, more often than not, DOES. NOT. SHOW. It is not immediately evident. The children won't admit to it. Evidence must be gathered. The cases are difficult to prosecute.

I apologize for sounding snippy, but I am so flipping tired of repeating this information over and over and over.

We'd have a worse situation of abuse in this country than we already do if 'suspicious behavior' wasn't investigated -- and action taken -- before all evidence of the abuse is made obvious.

The demand to see broken bones, bruises, and bloody underwear before a dangerous situation can be assumed is another form of child abuse, IMO. [/*]

I don't care if they investigate, I care that they took hundreds of kids in violation of state laws.
I'm also tired of repeating this information over and over again, but it's been months and they still haven't come close to proving that even a small number were abused.
Do they get to keep kids for years while they investigate ?


Another thing that the higher court opined was that CPS could have investigated without taking all of the children.

[evalles]

Originally posted by walton


No evalles you are wrong. If the FLDS would be obeying the laws like everyone else this wouldn't have started.

If they wouldn't be breaking the laws of the land this might not have happened.

Plural marriages. Marriages involving young children. If someone or anyone of those that you say doesn't follow Warrens rules would have spoken out this might not have happened.

Recorded abuses that involve some of the men living at that compound.

If they would have had legal documents birth certificates, drivers licenses, old tax forms, new tax forms, proof of identification.. etc. this might not have happened.

If they hadn't hidden a man wanted by the law (Warren Jeffs) this might not have happened.


No evalles. This isn't where it started. Those in the FLDS and those that stood by and did nothing allowed this to happen. No one else.

jmo [/*]

What I'm hearing is that if the FLDS breaks the law that justifies the state breaking the law. I disagree.

I think it's a lot more likely that CPS couldn't keep up with all the Jeff's and Jessop's, etc and it was easier to just take em'.
The state said they had 31 pregnant teens.
How many did they really have ?
I don't see how the state has retained credibility in your eyes.

[lotty]

<respectfully snipped>
Originally posted by evalles


Another thing that the higher court opined was that CPS could have investigated without taking all of the children. [/*]

Which is where we are now. Parents or Adults have kids, investigation on going. BTW, has anyone heard about the Canadian Child(ren)? My understanding was that with all minors released, it threw a monkey wrench into Canadian Consulate trying to figure out how to get the child(ren) back to their parents on the other side of our northern border? As always JMO/IMO.

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by evalles


What I'm hearing is that if the FLDS breaks the law that justifies the state breaking the law. I disagree.

I think it's a lot more likely that CPS couldn't keep up with all the Jeff's and Jessop's, etc and it was easier to just take em'.
The state said they had 31 pregnant teens.
How many did they really have ?
I don't see how the state has retained credibility in your eyes. [/*]

You have unique 'hearing'.

I can't speak for Walton, but speaking only for myself, I thoroughly believe that if the FLDS had never been involved in doing all sorts of illegal stuff that they would have not come to the attention of LE in the FIRST place.

I just don't think it is common for a large law-abiding, living on the up-and-up group to draw the attention of LE. The FLDS would not be under investigation for child sexual abuse via spiritually marrying minor females to old goats who already are legally married if they didn't have a record in the FIRST place of doing exactly that.

You wrote upthread "If the past is an accurate indicator of the future" & used that as justification for not wanting Walther to remain involved in this case.

I say let's use YOUR measuring stick of the past being an accurate indicator of future on the FLDS & their LONG history of handing over young teenage girls below the age of legal consent to old men for breeding purposes. There is plenty on the record that reveals they have done that very thing. And there is a lot on the record about their willingness to lie & obfuscate - & to the best of my knowledge that sure as h#ll can't be said about the judge.

JMO

[evalles]

Originally posted by Mimi428


You have unique 'hearing'.

I can't speak for Walton, but speaking only for myself, I thoroughly believe that if the FLDS had never been involved in doing all sorts of illegal stuff that they would have not come to the attention of LE in the FIRST place.

I just don't think it is common for a large law-abiding, living on the up-and-up group to draw the attention of LE. The FLDS would not be under investigation for child sexual abuse via spiritually marrying minor females to old goats who already are legally married if they didn't have a record in the FIRST place of doing exactly that.

You wrote upthread "If the past is an accurate indicator of the future" & used that as justification for not wanting Walther to remain involved in this case.

I say let's use YOUR measuring stick of the past being an accurate indicator of future on the FLDS & their LONG history of handing over young teenage girls below the age of legal consent to old men for breeding purposes. There is plenty on the record that reveals they have done that very thing. And there is a lot on the record about their willingness to lie & obfuscate - & to the best of my knowledge that sure as h#ll can't be said about the judge.

JMO [/*]

The past is an indicator of the future, I knew someone would respond exactly as you did. Predictable.
At least I'm judging Walthers as an individual and not saying that every judge is as corrupt as she is.

The raid in which they took all the children was supposed to be based on child abuse and nothing else.
Not their history, not the suspicion of illegal activities, only that those 400+ children were at immediate risk of physical harm.

It's not ok to take hundreds of children because they think the parents are lying or their behavior is suspicious.

I don't know about lying, but the fact that Walther's who is supposed to enforce the law, is violating it, is a travesty.

[walton]

http://origin.sltrib.com/ci_9737603

Cynthia Martinez, a spokeswoman for Texas RioGrande Legal Aid, said that many of the 48 mothers her firm represents face financial challenges that didn't exist when they lived at the ranch in a communal lifestyle.
"Now they are renting homes and apartments and have to figure out how to pay for that," she said.


I say good for them. But I do wonder what the fathers are doing to help?

[evalles]

Originally posted by Imperfect


Yes, the children are back with the adults. And -- big surprise -- King Willie has a restraining order against him to stay away from Teresa Jeffs, just ONE of those hundreds of children who is back with an FLDS parent or caretaker.

What that says to me is that one of the things I feared would happen is happening. Now that the children are all 'safely' back in the custody of the cult, FLDS leadership is working fast and furious to do everything they can to control every aspect of the situation on their end, such that evidence gathering by the states of Texas, Utah and AZ will continue to be impossibly difficult.

That is, IMO, the collateral damage of returning the children to the cult. Not only are they back in harm's way, but they and their parents are being actively 'incentivized' by Willie and all those FLDS 'men' who seem to have disappeared off the planet to keep sweet, and keep their mouths shut. [/*]

Would you like them to go take them all again ?

[juliekan]

Originally posted by walton
http://origin.sltrib.com/ci_9737603

Cynthia Martinez, a spokeswoman for Texas RioGrande Legal Aid, said that many of the 48 mothers her firm represents face financial challenges that didn't exist when they lived at the ranch in a communal lifestyle.
"Now they are renting homes and apartments and have to figure out how to pay for that," she said.


I say good for them. But I do wonder what the fathers are doing to help? [/*]

from the same site, "Since the state of Texas has taken our support system, we can do the best we can to make up the difference," Jessop said.
I do not know what they are referring to. Is it the men who have left their women to deal with this situation? It can't be the young boys who make up a large part of their labor force, because they have been returned to their families. I know Texas didn't put Warren Jeffs in prison, or whoever holds the purse strings on the large amount of money he has. Is the FLDS money only good enough for the men, but not the women and children?

[juliekan]

Originally posted by Imperfect


There's a link somewhere around here to information that FLDS money is funding land purchases and construction projects for new compounds.

In any event, while I'm sure the FLDS women have to think more about money now than they have in the past, I'm personally taking their financial pity party with a shaker of salt. [/*]

Will someone pass the salt, please?:)

[evalles]

Originally posted by Imperfect


What do you think? [/*]


That just sealed it for me. It's definitely not about the kids for you.
Let the children suffer more, just to make a criminal investigation easier ?

Knowing how bad that would hurt them, it seems you think it would be worth it just to make sure some men were prosecuted for having more than one wife.

Small sacrifices, huh Imperfect ?

I'll pray for you.

[Roux]

Originally posted by evalles



That just sealed it for me. It's definitely not about the kids for you.
Let the children suffer more, just to make a criminal investigation easier ?

Knowing how bad that would hurt them, it seems you think it would be worth it just to make sure some men were prosecuted for having more than one wife.

Small sacrifices, huh Imperfect ?

I'll pray for you. [/*]

And I don't think its about the kids for you, contrary to your protestations. You keep on and on calling the judge corrupt, Malonis a liar, harping on the taking of the children. Why can't you just let it go and debate the progress of the case with us? IMO posters have been exceedingly patient with you, but your same-old same-old is tiresome.

And it is NOT about some men being prosecuted for having more than one wife. If you can honestly believe that, after all that's been published about the FLDS, you are in total denial.

Contrary to what you and Bratlings have posted about us being biased, hypocritical, and arrogant most of us here are trying to keep open minds, read everything we can, and discuss somewhat intelligently.

[evalles]

Originally posted by Imperfect


Sheesh, a bit on the dramatic side, don't you think? Surely I've made my feelings about where the kids are safer known before now?

Not sure where all that vitriol came from, Evalles, but since you went there ... now you can understand how I feel about someone who's been grinning and gloating since the kids went back to their robo-moms, happy as a clam, imagining those kids back inside that cult so that the abuse and other atrocities can continue unabated. [/*]

No. I can't understand why you would want these children to be needlessly traumatized a second time. Since, after having them in custody for a couple months and still not charging anybody with abuse that's where they should be.
I kept waiting for them to provide evidence against, at least a couple of the parents, but it didn't happen.
I wouldn't have wanted an abused child returned, but even though they didn't prove the kids were abused, you still want them with strangers. Unbelievable.

[walton]

Originally posted by juliekan


from the same site, "Since the state of Texas has taken our support system, we can do the best we can to make up the difference," Jessop said.
I do not know what they are referring to. Is it the men who have left their women to deal with this situation? It can't be the young boys who make up a large part of their labor force, because they have been returned to their families. I know Texas didn't put Warren Jeffs in prison, or whoever holds the purse strings on the large amount of money he has. Is the FLDS money only good enough for the men, but not the women and children? [/*]

I don't get it either. What support system? How did they pay for those big shipments of fuel from the fuel man?

How did they pay for those bright shiny pickem up trucks? How did they pay for all those computers, cell phones, satellite dishes?

Could it be "Pennies from Heaven"? Couldn't be that because they are not listed as a Church. Can't be from all the so called "hunting lodges".

I still think it is a good thing that these ladies are using some of their skills to support themselves and the children. Once those big burly he-man of husbands crawl out from under the rocks the ladies can say see-ya. jmo

[evalles]

Originally posted by Roux


And I don't think its about the kids for you, contrary to your protestations. You keep on and on calling the judge corrupt, Malonis a liar, harping on the taking of the children. Why can't you just let it go and debate the progress of the case with us? IMO posters have been exceedingly patient with you, but your same-old same-old is tiresome.

And it is NOT about some men being prosecuted for having more than one wife. If you can honestly believe that, after all that's been published about the FLDS, you are in total denial.

Contrary to what you and Bratlings have posted about us being biased, hypocritical, and arrogant most of us here are trying to keep open minds, read everything we can, and discuss somewhat intelligently. [/*]

Then you would be wrong. What would be the purpose of taking them back now ? It would hurt them. Does that matter to anybody here, or are you really willing to sacrifice the innocent to punish teh guilty ? For me, it's always been about the suffering that took place as a result of this action. That justice was served was a nice bonus.I'm not nearly as interested in the cases against the FLDS adults because they aren't really important to me.
I hope anybody that's guilty of sexually abusing a child pays dearly, I think the parents of any underage girl that was allowed to be "spiritually married" should also be prosecuted.
I wanted the death penalty for child rapists.
But, as I'm sure there are bound to be guilty parties in this case, I'm equally sure that there are others that aren't. IMO, it should be a crime for the state to remove children from innocent parents and place them where they might be harmed.
I haven't seen any open minds on this board. The only thing I won't have an open mind about is casually taking children from their parents when there's no evidence of abuse.
I don't think the members of this board realize that their views aren't shared by the majority of the outside world.

[evalles]

Originally posted by Imperfect


For the love of all that is holy, Evalles ... they haven't proved abuse YET.

I can imagine your outcry if they started throwing evidence out for public consumption before it was presented via indictment. Every bit of information that was prematurely 'leaked' at the beginning of this situation has been called fabricated by you and yours for the simple fact that much of it is confidential with regard to the ages of the children, and much of it also must be validated through DNA results, other types of examination, testimony, and on and on.

It's ridiculous of you to keep pounding away at the 'lack of evidence' before the evidence has been gathered, sorted, and validated. How is it that you can't comprehend the massive undertaking that this particular evidence gathering represents?

IMO, you comprehend it just fine. It just suits your argument to keep insisting that because we haven't seen it yet, it doesn't exist.

Funny -- you can 'see' Elissa Walls, and Carolyn Jessop, and Flora Jessop, but somehow you deny their existence as well. [/*]

[walton]

Originally posted by evalles


Then you would be wrong. What would be the purpose of taking them back now ? It would hurt them. Does that matter to anybody here, or are you really willing to sacrifice the innocent to punish teh guilty ? For me, it's always been about the suffering that took place as a result of this action. That justice was served was a nice bonus.I'm not nearly as interested in the cases against the FLDS adults because they aren't really important to me.
I hope anybody that's guilty of sexually abusing a child pays dearly, I think the parents of any underage girl that was allowed to be "spiritually married" should also be prosecuted.
I wanted the death penalty for child rapists.
But, as I'm sure there are bound to be guilty parties in this case, I'm equally sure that there are others that aren't. IMO, it should be a crime for the state to remove children from innocent parents and place them where they might be harmed.
I haven't seen any open minds on this board. The only thing I won't have an open mind about is casually taking children from their parents when there's no evidence of abuse.
I don't think the members of this board realize that their views aren't shared by the majority of the outside world. [/*]



I don't think the members of this board realize that their views aren't shared by the majority of the outside world.

Many people on the "outside world" had no clue this cult even existed until the Raid. jmo

[evalles]

Originally posted by Imperfect


For the love of all that is holy, Evalles ... they haven't proved abuse YET.

I can imagine your outcry if they started throwing evidence out for public consumption before it was presented via indictment. Every bit of information that was prematurely 'leaked' at the beginning of this situation has been called fabricated by you and yours for the simple fact that much of it is confidential with regard to the ages of the children, and much of it also must be validated through DNA results, other types of examination, testimony, and on and on.

It's ridiculous of you to keep pounding away at the 'lack of evidence' before the evidence has been gathered, sorted, and validated. How is it that you can't comprehend the massive undertaking that this particular evidence gathering represents?

IMO, you comprehend it just fine. It just suits your argument to keep insisting that because we haven't seen it yet, it doesn't exist.

Funny -- you can 'see' Elissa Walls, and Carolyn Jessop, and Flora Jessop, but somehow you deny their existence as well. [/*]

I don't care about Elissa Walls or Carolyn or Flora Jessop.
They're big girls and can take care of themselves.
Unless the evidence shows that every parent has abused their children, it doesn't matter either.
I want the guilty to pay, but not at the expense of the innocent.

If they find 20 people guilty, it's not going to convince me that taking all those kids was right.

[evalles]

There were posts earlier regarding Brooke Adams.
I really like Brooke Adams.

Here's a letter she wrote to Carolyn Jessop.
If you pay attention and read the entire thing, you'll find that she's not terribly fond of Ms Jessop.
The first time I read it, I skimmed and thought they were friends.

http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/2008/06/dear-carolyn-jessop.htm

[evalles]

Best news of the day --by Brooke Adams


It was almost a toss up: a signed order or children reunited with their parents. But then Willie Jessop gave a little press conference out at the YFZ Ranch and read a ''statement from the FLDS church" forswearing underage marriage

For what it is worth, many FLDS I spoke to -- both here in Texas and elsewhere -- said they found the pictures shocking and incomprehensible. Some figure -- still do -- that they were faked, the same response I heard when pictures emerged of Jeffs clad in shorts and T-shirt when he was arrested in Las Vegas.



http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/2008/06/best-news-of-day.htm

[evalles]

Originally posted by walton






Many people on the "outside world" had no clue this cult even existed until the Raid. jmo [/*]

I'm not talking about the FLDS, just the decision to take all their children.
Many who don't agree with the FLDS beliefs thought taking all the kids was wrong.

[Roux]

Originally posted by walton
http://origin.sltrib.com/ci_9737603

Cynthia Martinez, a spokeswoman for Texas RioGrande Legal Aid, said that many of the 48 mothers her firm represents face financial challenges that didn't exist when they lived at the ranch in a communal lifestyle.
"Now they are renting homes and apartments and have to figure out how to pay for that," she said.


I say good for them. But I do wonder what the fathers are doing to help? [/*]

I just read the article and notice that Martinez quote "when they lived at the ranch in a communal lifestyle." Wasn't one of the reasons everyone cried so loudly about the children being taken was that they were separate families and should be considered as such? Can't have it both ways; it's either communal or it's not.

And I agree with other posters, where are the husbands and fathers? If prior to the raid they had sustenance and financial wherewithal, why shouldn't they have it now? Maybe they should sell some of that land in Colorado they bought.

[evalles]

The Tribune's blog on the plural life
http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/2008/06/flds-take-on-flora.htm

Sunday, June 01, 2008
FLDS take on Flora
The FLDS have posted a story about Flora by a woman who says she helped raise her. You can find it here.

http://www.truthwillprevail.org/index.php?parentid=1&index=45

I read this some time ago and while I don't know how true it is, it sounds reasonable.
It's one of the reasons I don't comment much on the ex-members. I don't know who's telling the truth.

[evalles]

Brooke Adams talks to Flora--

http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/2008/06/kicker.htm

On April 4, I spoke to Flora as I made my way to Eldorado. It was about noon, and I was just getting on a plane in Dallas for the second leg of the trip.

I asked Flora if she was coming to Texas. She told me no. I was surprised and asked why.

She told me that Texas authorities had the wrong guy -- referring to Dale Evans Barlow, the man who supposedly had beat up his 16-year-old wife.

Well, Flora's language was much more colorful than that, but you get the idea.

And you can imagine my shock. A full-scale raid was underway at the YFZ Ranch in a search for the wrong guy?

[evalles]

''If anything good can come out of all the suffering endured by these 400+ children, it is that maybe the rest of the country got a wake-up call. Texas CPS kept saying it themselves: All this was standard operating procedure, it's how we treat all families. And in that respect, almost every state is Texas. Aside from the sheer size of the endeavor, and those first days at CPS' kiddie-Guantanamo, nothing happened to these families that doesn't happen to hundreds of thousands of families every year.
(And, in fact, even the interning of children in ''shelters'' in the first days after placement is not unusual). But the families to whom this normally happens are overwhelmingly poor and disproportionately minority. They rarely have good legal representation. And everything happens in secret. So nobody knows about it, and we can pretend it doesn’t happen. Maybe this case has stripped away the pretense and shown the nation how most CPS agencies work most of the time. Maybe people will start to question what’s going on in the other 49 states, and demand real change.''
Richard Wexler, executive director, National Coalition for Child Protection Reform, Virginia.


http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/2008/05/and-thus-they-spoke.htm

[RayStar]

Originally posted by grammybear
I was talking with a friend tonight and she told me that the state taking the children was the best thing that could happen to these children. I didn't understand at first but she felt that the children had a rare opportunity that they had not seen. These children interacted with the outside world and saw that people were good. I have to agree with her. These children have been lied to all their life about the outside world. They were shown kindness and care by their caregivers. I think those memories will stick with these children as they go through life.

My thinking on the amount of time it has taken to bring indictments is because it is a very slow process. Just the dna tests alone are going to take time and they also have to match up the dna of the parents with the children.
It may take awhile to go through everything before they make arrests. I want to give them all the time that is needed to investigate these cases.

This issue is not just about the children, it involves the FLDS culture and how these children are being treated.

There are a lot of cases of taking a very long time to make arrest. I would rather that Texas take what time is needed to make sure they have the right perpertrator in all of these cases.

There will be indictments coming down no doubt about it. I also think this is the begining of the end of the FLDS.

jmoo [/*]This is a great post. I was just checking the thread for an update. I also hope that the kids will remember the time spent away from the camp as a pleasant learning experience.