Odds and Ends, Pt. II

[Serendipitous1]

Okie dokie, CW...though I am at a loss to understand the rationale. At 940 posts, Pt. I is only a third as large as the original thread (which was closed at 2818 posts, after PE had her temper tantrum).

Anyway, Cinderella started 'Odds and Ends' (actually a good idea - a "thread for when sometimes we don't know where to post something"... so "our posts won't be off subject"). But Cinderella ended Pt. I with...well...classic 'Cindyisms'.

Nevertheless, there appears to have been a distinct and radical change in RG's 'MO', after his second divorce. I cannot help but think that is important in understanding his disappearance. All JMOO

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm not certain if the change occurred after his second divorce or more recently. He previously had a car, that I'm assuming was under his own name, that was disposed of prior to 4/15/05. At that point, he didn't own his own car.

Like so much of the case, this "change" may be completely explainable, normal, and unrelated to the disappearance or indicative of something else that could be very important.

At to the traffic on 192, it was fairly low. Even assuming double traffic, had RFG pulled over and sat there for 10 minutes, perhaps 10 cars would have passed (and that is a generous estimate). I'd suspect that most, if not all of drivers would note and remember it

[Cinderella]

Several people that had know Ray told me that he changed. That he started with an open door policy and ended up being very different.

Something happened in between. You can even see the change on his face. Life can do that to a person. A partner can do it to a person. Have you ever noticed how people change and even start to act like their partner, friends or spouse. I think that one person made a big terrible impact on his life.

Some people are never satisfied with what they have, they just want more and more and more till there is nothing left to give. It is good to have some time alone and reflect on your life.

BTW, this is just another one of my Cindyism moments.

If someone harmed Ray, I pray that Ray haunts them every second, every minute, every day and never stops.

Events change a lot of lives. Look at Mark Lundsford. I hope that I spelled his last name right. I really admire him. Mark Klaussen (sp) and all the others that have become better people for what happened in their lives.

[Cloudbuster]

Cind the open door policy being converted into a non open door policy, did anyone say why? I was just trying to analize that a little, and what comes to mind is maybe it was ackward having a (so) work close by? But also if he was having problems or began to mistrust another employee he may have felt a need for more privacy?

Also maybe his So was a distraction on his focus of work lol, woman can have that effect. Judging by what you heard what do you think?:)

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella
Several people that had know Ray told me that he changed. That he started with an open door policy and ended up being very different.

Something happened in between. You can even see the change on his face. Life can do that to a person. A partner can do it to a person. Have you ever noticed how people change and even start to act like their partner, friends or spouse. I think that one person made a big terrible impact on his life.



I have no doubt that RFG changed over time, but the question is when and where these changes tied to his disappearance.

To give an example, JKA noted more interaction with the staff when she started working there (1988), e.g. everyone going out together for lunch. By 2005, that was gone. She attributed that to an increase in the volume of work.

RFG tended to own his own vehicle (from what I can gather). Nearly a year before he disappeared, that pattern changed. Is that connected with the disappearance? Did RFG due it because he was worried about a law suit and wanted to protect his assets? Was he possibly worried about getting older and wanted to give the now in order to avoid potential inheritance tax?

I don't have an answer.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks


On what do you base 'nearly one year' prior to as being the time of change regarding ownership of a vehicle? Was the Mini a special order, and if it was, was that order in PF's name or RG's?
Earliest delivery I could find of the 2005 MCS was end of August, 2004. In whose name was the order placed?



TG's comment about when the Mini was purchased, or at least when he first saw/drove it.

Whose name was on the order is not relevant, but whose name was on the title is.


I hardly think RG would be worried about a lawsuit since it is my understanding insurance is carried by the county/state, to cover such occurrences, job wise. The divorce was final so not like she could keep coming back to him for more. One would assume settlement there was a done deal.


Yet, he might have been worried, for some reason. It was in in regard to S1's "distinct and radical change in RG's 'MO', after his second divorce," and Cind's similar comments. I'm not sure that the change occurred after the 2000 divorce, but it seems to have occurred by July 2004.


Only someone with large assets would be concerned at age 59 about 'inheritance tax' issues, IMO.


No, PA has a state inheritance tax for all amounts, including cars. I believe the rate was 15% for a non spouse, non family member. I'm well below that age and I'm worried about it. :)

https://revenue-pa.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/revenue_pa.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=952&p_created=1046966268&p_sid=FhiXJJ5j&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PWRmbHQmcF9ncmlkc29yd D0mcF9yb3dfY250PTk4JnBfcHJvZHM9JnBfY2F0cz02JnBfcHY 9JnBfY3Y9MS42JnBfc2VhcmNoX3R5cGU9YW5zd2Vycy5zZWFyY 2hfbmwmcF9wYWdlPTE*&p_li=&p_topview=1

That relatively high rate might have been a factor in RFG's thought process (though it would not necessarily be indicative on anything other that RFG was financial prudence).

Still, for whatever reason, he did change that aspect of his life. He no longer owned an automobile on 4/15/05 (and apparently hadn't since July, 2004).

[Serendipitous1]

MOO - Sorry. I did not mean to imply the change was immediate, or EG's fault...but more like a crescendo, which started back then and 'topped out' in April '05.

A lot of people have gone 'on the record' saying they would not stop searching for an answer, only to have appeared, one by one, to have drop by the wayside...dying embers...move over Cindy Song. And I am not talking about this forum, per se, though it may sometimes appear to be RG's last bastion.

Something for everyone, on this sweltering night:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LoBwkVLVKU

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
MOO - Sorry. I did not mean to imply the change was immediate, or EG's fault...but more like a crescendo, which started back then and 'topped out' in April '05.



I'm not even too sure that it began in 2000. The only thing that I'm aware of that was a change was that, while RFG owned a car at some point prior to July of 2004, he didn't own one after July 2004.

Perhaps TG can shed some light on if there were movement of assets after the divorce in 2000. Not so much on how much, but just if RFG began taking hios name off assets or established joint ownership from 2000 onward.

[Politigal]

I'd still like to know exactly what JK Arnold's opinion of Patty truly was....

*If* JKA was actually the one posting as "ParlorElephant" way back when - there was definitely something there, as far as her suspicions of Patty.

[J. J. in Phila]

One of things that troubles me about the case is that someone may have an idea about what happened, especially if this was walkaway.

Assume for a second that on 4/15/05, I was a close friend/close family member of RFG and that I aided him in walking away (I couldn't have told you who RFG was on 4/15/05, and spent about a year and a half pronouncing his name Gr-EYE-car). I knew he wanted out of his life, for whatever reason. He asked me for some help and I really wanted wanted to help him, because he was a friend.

What would I do after he left:

1. Be very quiet about it and not speak to the press. Not speak to the family.

2. Post anonymously and try to "direct" people toward murder after some of the details came out. I'd know that the most likely suspect had a tight alibi and that witness reports wouldn't come close to supporting even an "Internet case" about the suspect.

3. When the were some semi persuasive arguments in favor of walkaway (and I have not yet seen anything that has led me to proclaim walkaway), try to create a conspiracy theory to explain why we shouldn't listen to it.

Now, I actually think there are more than a few people that could have been the helper, that would known what happened on 4/15/05. That are those 20-25 that are in the "Inner Circle." Not a grand conspiracy, but a small one, of perhaps two people, one of which would be RFG.

[Cinderella]

That would really be nice if we had an answer to that question. Then if he wanted to walk away on his own and someone aided him then we could all leave the board. What bothers me is that we do not know that this happened. No one will acknowledge it. So until we have the answer, we have to find out what happened to Ray.

I would like to know about insurance policys. I would like to know who name they were in. Also I am hoping that they looked at PF's banking records. That should have been done at the beginning. Was it though.

I know that an anwer was given, but why would PF change jobs when her and Ray would be retiring. It doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense her different stories. It doesn't make sense that the car was not in the parking lot when TG arrived as TG stated they he almost beat LE there.

I don't think that it was like RG to take a stand on that case of the Deputy Sheriff of Philadelphia either.

OK to the rumor mill. I heard that when someone close to RG talks someone gets very upset with them and they have hell to pay. No names. Just a rumor mill.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella
That would really be nice if we had an answer to that question. Then if he wanted to walk away on his own and someone aided him then we could all leave the board. What bothers me is that we do not know that this happened. No one will acknowledge it. So until we have the answer, we have to find out what happened to Ray.


The possibility that RFG did not walk away is why I'm still here.

I can however understand someone, a close friend, not talking, if this was voluntary. It's a question of loyalty and neither the friend nor RFG would be breaking any law in doing it.


I would like to know about insurance policys. I would like to know who name they were in.


I'm not concern about life insurance, because RFG would have to be declared dead first, and there has been no effort to rush that.


It doesn't make sense that the car was not in the parking lot when TG arrived as TG stated they he almost beat LE there.


I was under the impression that it was still there when he arrived. However, it would be at least an hour because TG hadn't turned off to Bellefonte yet. Bellefonte is about an hour away from Lewisburg (actually a little more). Perhaps TG can clarify the situation.

[puzzled]

Does TG even post here anymore?
By the way some in the past said that there was a fould odor in the street of shoppes. I did not notice it. I did not go downstairs though. Was the odor in the downstairs area?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by puzzled
Does TG even post here anymore?
By the way some in the past said that there was a fould odor in the street of shoppes. I did not notice it. I did not go downstairs though. Was the odor in the downstairs area? [/*]

I think the oder was checked out. SJ, IIRC, called the PSP.

As for TG, there has not been a lot of news. I think this is one of the first times we've asked questions that he could answer in a while.

[Serendipitous1]

MOO - The CDT appears to have finally removed the new (sham) Gricar Q&A Forum...along with:
- the historical Gricar Q&A (Sep '05 - Apr '08)...all gone;
- 'Missed leads - ignored sightings', 'Family upset by missteps'...ancient history;
- the third anniversary news article...lost in cyberspace;
- the 'Ongoing Coverage'...dropped out of sight;
- Pete Bosak's "promise to keep after this", "to find answers"...(fill in your own pejorative comment);
- Ray Gricar...gone...with yester-year's news.

So long, Ray!

[J. J. in Phila]

They stories are still uP here:

http://www.centredaily.com/news/ray_gricar/index.xml

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


I have no doubt that RFG changed over time, but the question is when and where these changes tied to his disappearance.

To give an example, JKA noted more interaction with the staff when she started working there (1988), e.g. everyone going out together for lunch. By 2005, that was gone. She attributed that to an increase in the volume of work.

RFG tended to own his own vehicle (from what I can gather). Nearly a year before he disappeared, that pattern changed. Is that connected with the disappearance? Did RFG due it because he was worried about a law suit and wanted to protect his assets? Was he possibly worried about getting older and wanted to give the now in order to avoid potential inheritance tax?

I don't have an answer. [/*]

JJ it looks like RG was getting to a point that last year that it almost seems like he had to hide assets from someone that was most likly sucking him dry or trying too. Sharing a bank account with Lara's name on it with his name too. Then putting the mini in PF's name. Who would a possible hound be that RG was not able to stand up to? Seems like he was unable to get past it. Maybe someone capable of some type of black mail? Sorry but I hate to ask this but maybe another woman? Don't freak about it cause Ray was not married to PF. Just seems possible.
MOO

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster


JJ it looks like RG was getting to a point that last year that it almost seems like he had to hide assets from someone that was most likly sucking him dry or trying too. Sharing a bank account with Lara's name on it with his name too. Then putting the mini in PF's name.

There may be other reasons. RFG would have lowered the inheritance tax liability rather substantially by doing what he did.

It could be something that simple or something sinister. This evidence doesn't point in one direction.

[day2day]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
MOO - The CDT appears to have finally removed the new (sham) Gricar Q&A Forum...along with:
- the historical Gricar Q&A (Sep '05 - Apr '08)...all gone;
- 'Missed leads - ignored sightings', 'Family upset by missteps'...ancient history;
- the third anniversary news article...lost in cyberspace;
- the 'Ongoing Coverage'...dropped out of sight;
- Pete Bosak's "promise to keep after this", "to find answers"...(fill in your own pejorative comment);
- Ray Gricar...gone...with yester-year's news.

So long, Ray! [/*]

Yea...good ole Pete...!! I am pretty sure if ya asked him ..he would tell ya he would get right back to you on this!! ...:cuss:

So many there should be ashamed of themselves...

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by day2day


Yea...good ole Pete...!! I am pretty sure if ya asked him ..he would tell ya he would get right back to you on this!! ...:cuss:

So many there should be ashamed of themselves... [/*]

Ah, the articles are still up.

http://www.centredaily.com/news/ray_gricar/index.xml

[Cinderella]

It would be nice if Parlor Elephant would come back on. No matter who Parlor Elephant is or isn't it doesn't matter because this is an opinion board. I have been sent threatening pm's to try to intimidate me, but all that I am posting is my opinions only. So much for that. Everyone on the board has creative minds.

As far as that goes it is no one's business who is who. We can get banned for revealing anyone else's real name. It is only a guess and this is an opinion board. If we had the answers, we would know what happened to Ray.

[Cinderella]

I have never known of anyone that is paid by Centre County Government, choosing who work for them. The jobs are posted. When I think about the firing of JKA, I wonder why she was fired. Yes, she ran opposite MM, but so do others and that doesn't get on fired.

I can't think of one other person whether elected or not that choose who they wanted in their office. I have heard that when there are some problems, that someone might be transferred to another department, but I keep asking myself why J.K.A. I also don't believe that Ray would have endorsed someone getting rid of her before she could retire. She has one more year to go, what was the hurry. Maybe two people didn't click. Maybe someone didn't like her or was jealous of her over Ray. Maybe someone thought that Ray was messing around with J.K.A. or too close to her.

That would encourage someone to change positions if they thought that their soul mate was cheating. I can't see why anyone who would be retiring soon would put someone through training them just to leave and have another opening. It just doesn't fit any other way then to really know what is going on. One embarrassment would be enough let alone this one.

Just my opinon only. Can anyone else comprehend this move a different way that really makes sense other than someone wanted to try this job out.?

[Cloudbuster]

Cind maybe someone in the office wasn't thrilled that JKA had ties to someone that RG had dated or was friends with in the past. Im not sure if it was a friend to RG or someone he dated. JKA did mention something about not thinking RG was still seeing that person. Can you look up what JKA said about that?

I have a hard time understaning PF's descision to move into a lower paying position. Seems like a need to be closer to RG. I could be way off base but it does look like that.

I also have trouble with the mini placed in PF's name prior to the disappearance. Seems like RG had a reason to do that. Maybe he wanted PF to feel more secure in the relationship or he had to do it for another reason.

Does appear that RG had changed during the last year prior to the disappearance.

I also have trouble beliving that she could remain in a position there after RG's disappearance (knowing her boss MM has done nothing to further this investagation).

Im not attacking PF, Im just trying to understand her. We can give many excuses for her but realistically some of it is hard to understand. I know PF would need that job after RG disappeared but how can you work with someone who wouldn't help your soul mate? If the house was paid for you would be able to get another clerk job to cover costs.

moo

[J. J. in Phila]

As far as I know, PE departure was voluntary and she's never been banned. Much like the numerous other posters that have left/removed posts, I'll defend her choice.

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
Cind maybe someone in the office wasn't thrilled that JKA had ties to someone that RG had dated or was friends with in the past. Im not sure if it was a friend to RG or someone he dated. JKA did mention something about not thinking RG was still seeing that person. Can you look up what JKA said about that?


There was an old acquaintance who LE thought was the "Lewisburg mystery woman." That was who JKA referred to.


I have a hard time understaning PF's descision to move into a lower paying position. Seems like a need to be closer to RG. I could be way off base but it does look like that.


My understanding was that the VWA would accompany the attorney handling the case into court, which could have given her greater access to RFG. It may have been a desire to get the VWA position filled for the "new" DA, after the election.


I also have trouble with the mini placed in PF's name prior to the disappearance. Seems like RG had a reason to do that. Maybe he wanted PF to feel more secure in the relationship or he had to do it for another reason.

Does appear that RG had changed during the last year prior to the disappearance.


Again, there may (or may not) be a reason that is totally unrelated to his disappearance.



I also have trouble beliving that she could remain in a position there after RG's disappearance (knowing her boss MM has done nothing to further this investagation).


I have not heard the hue and cry for a grand jury from anyone in Centre County. That seems to be about the only thing MM can do. I can understand the position she's in employment wise.

[Cinderella]

If a person is going to retire, why would a person accept a lower paying position before the retirement?

It would seem to me that anyone would want to make as much money as they could before they retired. After all they were counting down the days. Retiring would be soon.

:shrug:

I really feel that the inconsistencies of PF's behavior and statements send up a red flag. The more that you look, the more a person knows that something is wrong with the situation.

Also who started the "We will wait as long as it takes"? Was this statement made somehow to convince others to look away from the truth? I would like to personally ask her what she meant. I wonder if Lara just followed the leader kind of thing.

J. J. Wrote:

My understanding was that the VWA would accompany the attorney handling the case into court, which could have given her greater access to RFG. It may have been a desire to get the VWA position filled for the "new" DA, after the election.


Centre County Government never needed PF to do anything for them. She is working for them, not the other way around. They could have had someone in place if they wanted to.

[day2day]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Ah, the articles are still up.

http://www.centredaily.com/news/ray_gricar/index.xml [/*]

That was mighty big of them..don't ya think?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella
If a person is going to retire, why would a person accept a lower paying position before the retirement?



In that case, it may have more to do with the transition to the new DA. A VWA probably is harder to fill than a clerk. PEF is planning to leave; RFG is planning to retire. They might have made a decision to get someone into the VWA position, get him/her trained and acquire some experience prior to the new DA coming into office.



I really feel that the inconsistencies of PF's behavior and statements send up a red flag. The more that you look, the more a person knows that something is wrong with the situation.


I'm unaware of any inconsistencies on anything material and in looking at some of the published comments of PEF, her initial attitude (within the first several months) is that RFG is out there someplace. That may have been wishful thinking.

Day, so far, there isn't any news. On the State College Board, someone posted a "newsflash" more the year ago. It was "He's still missing." I'm not sure there is anything to publish, other than that. I know want questions I'd like to see answered; I've submitted them. I don't have an answer.

I'm one yes answer away from saying this probably was a walkaway case; I'm two no answers away from saying this was a murder case.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by day2day
That was mighty big of them..don't ya think? All JMOO -

Like it or not, the CDT has been the main source of public information in this case. It is therefore particularly disturbing to have witnessed the TOTAL COLLAPSE of that support. The family (including PF) and LE are the other 'conclaves' of information, but who have kept silent about what I have called the 'big secret', as opposed to the 'big lie' (or a whole bunch of little lies).

If all parties at interest (except here, of course) are satisfied that everything that could be done has been done, who am I to question the family, or LE, or the CDT (ala Hatchy McClatchy)? Only my concern...that this is not the case...keeps me pressing for answers.

I have never considered it more important to know all of 'the facts', then to know that 'all of the facts' were being prosecuted. But, after 3 years of what has essentially been total failure, that position is changing. The right message, to the right people (the right answer to the right question), might easily change the entire complexion of this 'stalemate'. But that has not happened...nor, apparently, will it now.

So long, Ray. Your extraordinary courage is lacking in your "so-called" compatriots. So sad. Like a 'candle in the wind'...or 'on the water'...let us plant a tree in you honor...and never truly understand why. MOO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIThPL8Akgc

[Cloudbuster]

Does anyone know if the Markles Building in Hazelton, Luzerence county was still having any work done in 2005? Also their parking lot, garage was it finished completly by 2005?

[Cloudbuster]

Im looking for places that was having work done that had more than one digging machine or bobcat or bucket type machinery. It would be more than one piece of heavy equipment there. Was the new jail completly done in 2005? What about the new I-99 road? Anyone know where they would have been along on that road in the 2005 time frame? Talleyrand park had some work done in 2005 if I remember correctly. There had to be more than one piece of eqipment that's what is important in knowing. Also If I remember correctly the Bush house, the road behind it and they replaced the back steps to it, I know I read that somewhere???
I think Talleyrand had some concrete pillars maybe installed by Penndot? Can anyone find anything on it? Even if you come upon any walkways.

[Cloudbuster]

Well said LW!!! It's so true. The last 3 years is three years toward finding the truth. It may be anytime now that we come to the truth or it may be more years to get there. Secrets are not meant to stay hidden forever.:)

[Cloudbuster]

Missing:
http://www.centredaily.com/news/breaking_news/story/647662.html

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
Missing:
http://www.centredaily.com/news/breaking_news/story/647662.html [/*]

It's worth noting that they didn't issue a press statement until a week after the last sighting.

[Serendipitous1]

MM and SS are "havin' fun" at a young woman's expense ("'Mifflin Streak' runner fighting lewdness charge", CDT - no link...same old 'problem'). 'Go git her, boys'...makes you look like y'all are fighting crime. Even a Gricar comment...go figure...guess RG's plight has not lost all its lustre. MOO

[Cinderella]

I think that it would be great to do a refresher of minds. I would like to see if anyone has a list of the promotions, job changes when Ray disappeared.

Could PF have been the first job change to take place?

Who moved out of the spot that PF took? Does anyone have any idea?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella
I think that it would be great to do a refresher of minds. I would like to see if anyone has a list of the promotions, job changes when Ray disappeared.

Could PF have been the first job change to take place?

Who moved out of the spot that PF took? Does anyone have any idea? [/*]

According to JKA, the clerk position had been vacant for a while. The VWA position had been filled by someone known by RFG/PEF.

The thing is, from 12/04 to 5/05, nobody knew who the next DA would be. It might not have been MM or JKA, as both had primary opposition. Anyone hired from 12/04 to even 11/o5 wouldn't know if there would still have a job in January 2006. Even if RFG hadn't disappeared, they still would have been in the same situation.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks



The changes I have noticed in the news were all related to something that came up during the investigation into the RG disappearance.
MS for a period of time became the acting DA but didn't bother to see to the renewal of RG's law license.


It wasn't MS responsibility. Renewing the law license was a personal matter paid for by the estate. Technically, it was LG's responsibility, and I'm sure that whether her missing and possibly dead father could show up again and practice law wasn't the most pressing thing on her mind. She's also not an attorney and wouldn't have this as the first thing on he mind.


Dixon left after the first lie detector test was given, and no chief for months until MM moved into DA office.


I believe Dixon announced he was planning to retire prior to that and had indicated his retirement prior to RFG's disappearance.


At the same time, Weaver came in as new chief.


Gee, Bellefonte replaced its retired chief. Big shock.


Erin was moved out of Centre Co. local news first of year, at which time PB became the new voice.


A reporter got a better job, quite and was replaced. Big shock. She was replaced by someone who did some investigative reporting, possibly beyond what she did.


JKA was ousted.


JKA lost an election to the new DA, one where she did do some negative campaigning. Big shock.


Fenton, the woman who claimed to see RG in the rear parking lot around 3pm, moved in as ADA in DA office.


Fenton was a law clerk to Judge Grine. A clerk's position, even for a local judge, is a very prestigious position, but it is generally a first job. It goes to people that graduate law school and are waiting for their Bar results/waiting to take the exams, or want a year or so experience before they start to practice. It's not unusual.


Cheryl Spotts was ousted to another office. (She was the woman who commented on RG's behavior when he met with Judge Brown regarding the AVM case.)


Nearly three years late, she's given another job with the county. Again, there are personnel changes.


DetZ was ousted from BPD to Sheriff's office.


Quit and took another job, about two years later (two years too late, IMO).

Now, what do he have. A political opponent let go (JKA), three people moving to better jobs (EN, DZ, Fenton), though two are still in the immediate area, one long termer retiring (Dixon), all in the course of three years. We have LG making a mistake with the renewal of the law license, and then correcting it; that is understandable in the circumstances.

[J. J. in Phila]

Where is everyone? Are we as stumped as LE?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks



NO comparison, considering we do not have access to the evidence from phone records, to dog tracking reports, to witness reports, to test results, to anything that is in the boxes of evidence. Keeping the public in the dark in no way compares with LE's supposedly being stumped. The refusal to move the case higher while sitting on the evidence in no way points to lack of evidence. It points to control of evidence by someone given far too much power over a case.
JMO [/*]

I don't know too many people claiming that the "refusal to move the case higher" is due to a lack of evidence. Also, it is not a question of "refusal," but more of a question of those "higher" declining to take a more active role.

There is no question that MM or Peterson could petition to form a grand jury, on their own, without any request or veto from the BPD or the PSP. So could TC.

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
Where is everyone? Are we as stumped as LE? [/*]

Im still here. Im convinced that this case had something to do with a insurance deal of some kind and a investagation of some kind (task force) possibility.

Why did TC end up with the last drug bust? It was RG's office that started it. Im sorry I don't see RG handing over a million dollar case to the AG office. I now wonder if the words "I stole it" may fit that. If RG's office would have completed that bust on their own then RG himself would be responsible on how the money was to be used. Why in God's earth would he want TC to have the case???? IMO he didn't. If a million dollars was reported how can we be sure it wasn't more? Let's not forget Ungard and his partner destroyed the records and WHY would that need to be done if everything was on the straight and narrow?? RG looked upset in the photo with TC and I think it's because he is upset with sharing that bust to begin with.
MOO Now I suppose I will be told that TC and RG was buddies lol. Noway Noway.

[Serendipitous1]

All JMOO --

Without discouraging your quest Cb, I think some of this is irrelevant. Local LE already had Taji Lee arrested and in jail in January '05. I think that was by design, in cooperation with the AG's office. By law the AG is charged with the duty to continue the state's multi-jurisdictional drug enforcement operations. And the state charges (in March '05) put the 'big-time bite' on that low-life scum-bucket.

To me, RG looked appropriately stoic (as did the others present) in that photo with TC. And though I have no idea what RG's opinion of TC is/was, I think it could be akin to Buehner's assessment...considers him a friend, but called him a 'gutless coward' when it came to showing leadership in this matter (RG's unexplained disappearance).

Now, if you want to look at corruption in the regional drug strike task force, of which Centre County is part (with MM having been the senior AG office prosecutor for the same region), have at it. I have done the same. Would Ray Gricar have stopped, in route, for anyone other than LE? Would Ray Gricar have set up a clandestine meeting with anyone other than LE?

Someone knows what happened to Ray Gricar. And that person will not come forward. More 'know' what likely happened to Ray Gricar, but are holding it back. And time continues to be the enemy for them...and the rest of us.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1

Now, if you want to look at corruption in the regional drug strike task force, of which Centre County is part (with MM having been the senior AG office prosecutor for the same region), have at it. I have done the same. Would Ray Gricar have stopped, in route, for anyone other than LE? Would Ray Gricar have set up a clandestine meeting with anyone other than LE?



Stopped in route might be an overstatement. The "clandestine meeting" is one real possibility (good term, by the way) that dates back to the Murder Scenario.

If this was not a walkaway, I'd be looking at this possibility.

OK, since I'm in a conspiratorial mood, :) let's look at the questions again:

1. Who could say to RFG, convincingly, "Meet me in Lewisburg for a secret meeting," and probably add "... and bring your lap with you?"

2. Who would have felt the need to have that meeting in Lewisburg, away from Bellefonte and the Johnstown-Altoona-State College (J-A-S media market)?

A partial answer is not anyone who could have visited RFG in his office. That removes PEF, JKA, SS, MS, and everyone at the office, and MM.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
All JMOO --

Without discouraging your quest Cb, I think some of this is irrelevant. Local LE already had Taji Lee arrested and in jail in January '05. I think that was by design, in cooperation with the AG's office. By law the AG is charged with the duty to continue the state's multi-jurisdictional drug enforcement operations. And the state charges (in March '05) put the 'big-time bite' on that low-life scum-bucket.

To me, RG looked appropriately stoic (as did the others present) in that photo with TC. And though I have no idea what RG's opinion of TC is/was, I think it could be akin to Buehner's assessment...considers him a friend, but called him a 'gutless coward' when it came to showing leadership in this matter (RG's unexplained disappearance).

Now, if you want to look at corruption in the regional drug strike task force, of which Centre County is part (with MM having been the senior AG office prosecutor for the same region), have at it. I have done the same. Would Ray Gricar have stopped, in route, for anyone other than LE? Would Ray Gricar have set up a clandestine meeting with anyone other than LE?

Someone knows what happened to Ray Gricar. And that person will not come forward. More 'know' what likely happened to Ray Gricar, but are holding it back. And time continues to be the enemy for them...and the rest of us. [/*]

Call me crazy but I've always been suspicious of the State Trooper who was involved in searching for Gricar that first day, and he had given up and was heading to a restaurant for lunch when he just happened to spot the Mini Cooper...

A little too convenient IMO.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


Call me crazy but I've always been suspicious of the State Trooper who was involved in searching for Gricar that first day, and he had given up and was heading to a restaurant for lunch when he just happened to spot the Mini Cooper...

A little too convenient IMO. [/*]

It was supper.

The car, however, wasn't hidden, or perhaps was hidden in plain sight. Someone would have spotted it once the description was out (mid afternoon).

I would not expect the parkingl lot to be full on Saturday evening or Sunday morning.

It would have kind of stuck out by Sunday AM, and that is something that a hypothetical killer would have realized if he knew that was RFG's car.

[J. J. in Phila]

Did the PSP trooper have any active cases in Centre County or did his jurisdiction cover Centre County?

[Cloudbuster]

In looking at cases of Ungard's and partner I see a pattern in them.
http://fourthamendment.com/blog/index.php?blog=1&title=snitch_s_self_interest_required_officers&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1
http://www.lycolaw.org/cases/opinions/2000/WEBB090500bt.pdf.
http://www.lycolaw.org/Cases/opinions/2007/Stafford032607br.pdf.
http://www.websupp.org/data/MDPA/4:05-cr-00210-253-MDPA.pdf.
The Lycoming County Housing Authority gave the task force $7,500 in 2005 for extra police services but did not ask for an accounting of how the money was spent, executive director Elizabeth Turner said.

Ungard also is accused of a selling a city vehicle without permission, but turned over the $1,730 he received.

Kreitz's former fiancee, Lauren Callahan, testified that Kreitz told her Ungard was responsible for a big-screen television that had been in the task force office showing up in their apartment, but that if anyone asked about it to say it came from her parents.
The hitch placed on the truck to pull the boat was bought with task force funds, according to records.

The dozen witnesses called by Deputy Attorney James M. Reeder described loose management of the task force from 2002 to 2006. District Attorney Michael A. Dinges earlier this year relinquished control of the force to the state Bureau of Narcotics Investigation.
http://www.ethicsinpolicing.com/article.asp?id=3285
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.pafoplodge29.com/PDF/DrugUnit.pdf now I wonder who the man is that he arrested?
http://www.courts.state.pa.us/OpPosting/Superior/out/a04043_00.pdf

Cracking down on corruption can be complicated
BY ERIN L. NISSLEY
STAFF WRITER
http://www.thetimes-tribune.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=18893968&BRD=2185&PAG=461&dept_id=415898&rfi=8
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

JMO

[Cloudbuster]

What Im wondering is if Ray wanted to meet with Ungard or his partner? Ungard and Kreitz work in Willamport and Kreitz is from Mountour. How far away are those areas from Lewisburg?

What if Ray was given the information of the corruption that was going on? What if that informer on the task force gave Ray the information and the records was given to him on his laptop as the only holder of those destroyed records? What would that mean then to Ungard and Kreitz?

Would Ray decide to handle this personally with them? Maybe try to talk them into doing the right thing? Did the meeting in Lewisburg have something to do with this?

I just think it is possible if someone knew about this corruption that was going on that Ray would have been the best person to go to with it. Ray is known to be on the straight and narrow. Im not ruling out a girlfriend or wife may have even been the person to go to Ray.

[Cloudbuster]

look at Kreitz fiancee she rolled over in a testamony wonder if they are married yet? Did they have a fallout way back? Could she have went to RG?

Just thinking out loud.

[Cloudbuster]

Assistant District Attorney((((( Karen Kuebler will prosecute all drug cases that pass through the Centre County Courthouse, )))(wodner why MM prosecuted T Lee?))))and Gricar will continue his specialization as a prosecutor in domestic violence cases and those involving sexual offenders, he said.


The Centre County Drug Task Force will work with other organizations. Task force officers from Blair and Clearfield counties will be involved, Fisher said.


The Centre County Drug Task Force will work with other organizations. Task force officers from Blair and Clearfield counties will be involved, Fisher said.
(((((Gricar will work closely with police through his position on the Board of Chiefs,))))) established by the task force. Police chiefs from the(((( various departments involved will meet once a month to discuss the effectiveness and operations of the task force, Gricar said.)))))
In addition, departments will receive increased training for officers, electronic surveillance equipment, money to purchase drugs from suspected dealers and liability coverage to support officers in the event of injury during an undercover investigation

Fisher and Gricar signed documents allowing the task force to receive financing and equipment from Fisher's office at the attorney general's Region Bureau of Narcotics Office, 2515 Green Tech Drive.


State College, Bellefonte and Ferguson, Spring and Patton townships' police departments will work together in the task force, Fisher said.


"All drug enforcement will be together under one roof," he said. "(Drug) problems are too difficult to solve haphazardly."
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/1999/04/04-13-99tdc/04-13-99dnews-9.asp

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2000/09/09-14-00tdc/09-14-00dnews-5.asp

[Cloudbuster]

In one instance, Ungard sold exercise equipment, which was owned by the drug task force, for $1,300, cashed the check and allegedly failed to deliver the ((((money to the District Attorney's office))) or to drug task force accounts.

During the course of the investigation, agents attempted to obtain drug task force records and it was discovered that (((all records prior to January 2006 had allegedly been destroyed by Ungard.))) The destroyed records were the((( only complete copies and included information for cases that were still under investigation and prosecution.))))))



The grand jury states that shortly before the records disappeared, Ungard and Kreitz discussed the records and decided that they should be destroyed. Kreitz allegedly told investigators that he did not see Ungard destroy or remove the records,((( but changed his story several times as to when the records disappeared. )))



WILLIAMSPORT - Attorney General Tom Corbett today announced that agents from the Attorney General's Public Corruption Unit have filed criminal charges against two former members of the Lycoming County Drug Task Force accused of using their public positions to falsify the purchase of forfeited vehicles, illegally obtain drug task force money and take drug task force property for personal financial gain.

this is a big one---->

Corbett noted that on March 1, 2007, the Attorney General's Office took over control of the Lycoming County Drug Task Force.??????????

WILLIAMSPORT - Attorney General Tom Corbett today announced that agents from the Attorney General's Public Corruption Unit have filed criminal charges against two former members of the Lycoming County Drug Task Force accused of using their public positions to falsify the purchase of forfeited vehicles, illegally obtain (((drug task force money and take drug task force property for personal financial gain.))))

Corbett identified the defendants as Thomas Ungard, Jr., former coordinator of the drug task force, 42, 833 Third Ave.,((( Williamsport )))and Dustin Kreitz, former assistant coordinator of the drug task force, 37, 1835 Lincoln Ave., (((Montoursville))). Ungard and Kreitz were also officers with the Williamsport Police Department.

Corbett said the Attorney General's investigation was launched in July 2006, following a referral from the Lycoming County((( District Attorney's office )))concerning allegations that Ungard used a pickup truck seized from a convicted drug dealer for a private fishing trip to Canada.

http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/press.aspx?id=2561


So one lives in Williamsport and the other in Montoursville.

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Stopped in route might be an overstatement. The "clandestine meeting" is one real possibility (good term, by the way) that dates back to the Murder Scenario.

If this was not a walkaway, I'd be looking at this possibility.

OK, since I'm in a conspiratorial mood, :) let's look at the questions again:

1. Who could say to RFG, convincingly, "Meet me in Lewisburg for a secret meeting," and probably add "... and bring your lap with you?"

2. Who would have felt the need to have that meeting in Lewisburg, away from Bellefonte and the Johnstown-Altoona-State College (J-A-S media market)?

A partial answer is not anyone who could have visited RFG in his office. That removes PEF, JKA, SS, MS, and everyone at the office, and MM. [/*]

1.A girlfriend or wife of the above posts or a task force person.;)
2.Ray Gricar himself.

[J. J. in Phila]

Two very big problems with this:

1. These are not in RFG's jurisdiction.

2. There would be no problem with anyone associated with this case walking into the DA's office or meeting RFG in Bellefonte.

If this was a clandestine meeting, it had to someone who could come up with a plausible reason not to come into the office and convince RFG to drive 50+ miles.

A case well outside RFG's jurisdiction wouldn't do it.

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
Two very big problems with this:

1. These are not in RFG's jurisdiction.

2. There would be no problem with anyone associated with this case walking into the DA's office or meeting RFG in Bellefonte.

If this was a clandestine meeting, it had to someone who could come up with a plausible reason not to come into the office and convince RFG to drive 50+ miles.

A case well outside RFG's jurisdiction wouldn't do it. [/*]


1.) If a fiance girlfriend or a wife went to RG, Im really sure that RG would not want one of them coming to his office. Im sure some LE from the Bellefonte Dept may even reconize her. If she was afraid of her boyfriend or husband she wouldn't have went to the Lycombing DA. Ray would be a perfect person to go to. Ray sits as the chief of the boards of the task force. She may have given him some proof or allegations that he might have kept on his laptop. JJ she may even have meet Ray back at the antique shop in Tyrone. It may have been the officers that met Ray at the SOS parking lot.
2. There would be every problem if someone like UG and Kr would meet RG in his office. Do you seriously think they would risk meeting him in his office on a issue of corruption? I also don't think RG would want a confrontation at his place of work. He might have thought he could handle this his own way and privacy would IMOO be important to him. DID it get ugly? Was it a set up? It's just something to look at and it was a situation that was going on for some time.

POINT: if PF said Ray did shop those 50 miles away at the antique shop then why do you think he wouldn't travel 50 miles to straighten out a corruption problem in his task force acting as a chief on the board? Don't forget RG called PF to say he was on a drive on 192 (which is 50 miles away.)

POINT: It looks like it's about 20.9 miles from the Williamsport area varies slightly for Mountoursville.

Im only pointing out a possibility that may mean nothing. But JJ who would know even better how to make a possible crime scene look so clueless besides RG. Keep in mind RG knew them and wouldn't have felt threatened to meet now would he? I also have my thoughts running on the informants? Did they have a history of crime? One wonders. This is just a theory board it doesn't mean it happened.

Just thinking.

[J. J. in Phila]

1. There is a jurisdictional problem, RFG cxan't prosecute a case in another county.

2. Unless he knows the person, he's not going to druive to meet them.

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
1. There is a jurisdictional problem, RFG cxan't prosecute a case in another county.

2. Unless he knows the person, he's not going to druive to meet them. [/*]

1. I don't think Ray was going to prosecute either officer. I think he wanted to straighten out a corruption issue or maybe even planned to turn them in to TC office.

2. You don't think he knows the officers on the task force? As far as meeting with a wife or a girlfriend of the officers why would that frighten him? Especially if she was going to give him information on high level corruption. You gotta remember he is chief on the board and yea that would have gotton his attention. I don't think RG would be afraid of a women in distress would you?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster


1. I don't think Ray was going to prosecute either officer. I think he wanted to straighten out a corruption issue or maybe even planned to turn them in to TC office.


Two major problems. First, he's not the guy running the task force, so he can't straighten it out.

Second, if he's aware of some criminal activity, he has a duty to disclose it. You are basically suggesting he gets into a Nifong situation.


2. You don't think he knows the officers on the task force? As far as meeting with a wife or a girlfriend of the officers why would that frighten him? Especially if she was going to give him information on high level corruption. You gotta remember he is chief on the board and yea that would have gotton his attention. I don't think RG would be afraid of a women in distress would you?

Again, he's not running the task force. I have no idea what board you think he's "chief" of.

Unless the PSP trooper was party to a case that RFG was prosecuting or had prosecuted, it is unlikely that he would know the trooper much less the trooper's SO.

There two problems. First, there have probably been dozens of calls of alleged corruption over the decades. Some of those were frivolous, if not most. Without evidence, he's not going to run around, literally in this case, to hear them personally.

The second problem is jurisdiction. Unless it happened in Centre County, involves a prosecution in Centre County, or involves someone holding office in Centre County, it is not RFG's jurisdiction. If he gets a call involving something else, at best, he can refer the person to the local authority.

The only exception would be if was known to RFG, e,g, a friend, someone that he's used as a witness. That still wouldn't explain a clandestine meeting in Lewisburg.

[Cloudbuster]

Okay JJ I will settle with RG was in route on 192 when he called PF to tell her he was ON A DRIVE and would not be back in time to care for Honey. He had no plans for a meeting. I suppose it was just a 50 mile drive to catch a breeze on a warm spring day.

Nothing was amiss that day or the day before. Lara spoke to him and all was well. PF spoke to him that morning (Friday) all was well. He drank some cheeerful orange juice and fell fast a sleep. He is okay because we know he called PF at 11:30 friday.
No plans for dinner just Ray being aloft on a breezy spring afternoon. No need to tell PF anything other than that. She knows him so well that she probably didn't need to ask about him being home for the regular Gamble meal friday night dinner. No problem there he might have been fine with orange juice for dinner.

Okay it's either a random act when he gets to park his car at the SOS a sudden crime and he don't return. Then it could be he was abuducted by aliens from Pluto again a random act. Then we could say he had Mel Willy on his mind and just hoped on a FBI plane you know the one that has enough room for 35 passengers used by the FBI to fly illegigal immmigrants out of the country and yes there is one of those up that way.

JJ do you know how riduculus the above all sounds? :lol:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
Okay JJ I will settle with RG was in route on 192 when he called PF to tell her he was ON A DRIVE and would not be back in time to care for Honey. He had no plans for a meeting. I suppose it was just a 50 mile drive to catch a breeze on a warm spring day.


I think that substantially more likely than he's going to drive 50 miles to meet a PSP trooper/trooper SO for a case that he wasn't prosecuting, and wasn't his jurisdiction, frankly.

There very well may have been a cllandestine meeting, but not for that purpose.

[Cloudbuster]

First of all the task force has no jurisdiction in that it only applied to centre county. Ray met monthly on the task force to handle any problems within the task force which also included Lycombing county, Blair, HUNTINGDON, Clinton ect. Ray sat on the board of chiefs read my posted article it proves it.

Now if there was a problem going on in the task force in Lycombing area, remember the Lycombing DA placed Ungard in charge of the task force there. Maybe someone went to Ray being he was on the board of chiefs. What happens in Lycombing would affect the task force as a whole. What affects the whole includes RG in helping solve that problem. My question is who would have went to RG if this happened?

[Cloudbuster]

If there was a meeting there are only a few reason why one would take place and yea even with a woman meeting. Now what reasons can you give for a meeting Ray would travel 50 miles for?

[Cloudbuster]

Tuesday, April 13, 1999 ]

Centre County Drug Task Force established to fight trafficking



By BETH BAUMGARDNER
and RACHEL HANSON
Collegian Staff Writers


State Attorney General Mike Fisher, Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar and local law enforcement officials yesterday established the Centre County Drug Task Force, aimed at ending drug trafficking in the region.


------>Fisher and Gricar signed documents allowing the task force to receive financing and equipment from Fisher's office at the attorney general's Region Bureau of Narcotics Office, 2515 Green Tech Drive.


State College, Bellefonte and Ferguson, Spring and Patton townships' police departments will work together in the task force, Fisher said.


---->"All drug enforcement will be together under one roof," he said. "(Drug) problems are too difficult to solve haphazardly."


----->For example, he said, officers from one department can work undercover in another department.


----->"When you work in your own community, you can't be undercover without someone recognizing you," Fisher said. "The police officers in the five departments will work more closely . . . to stamp out drug dealing in the region."


Lt. Diane Conrad of the State College Police Department said by joining the task force, State College police officers will be better coordinated with other departments and will have added access to information to help them complete investigations.


In addition, departments will receive increased training for officers, electronic surveillance equipment, money to purchase drugs from suspected dealers and liability coverage to support officers in the event of injury during an undercover investigation.


(((Gricar will work closely with police through his position on the Board of Chiefs, established by the task force. Police chiefs from the various departments involved will meet once a month to discuss the effectiveness and operations of the task force, Gricar said.)))<----------------see JJ


The task force's main goals will be to increase enforcement and prosecution, Gricar said, but it will not work to change the sentences received by drug offenders.


"We expect the task force efforts will result in more arrests and more charges," he said.


Assistant District Attorney (Karen Kuebler will prosecute all drug cases that pass through the Centre County Courthouse, )and Gricar will continue his specialization as a prosecutor in domestic violence cases and those involving sexual offenders, he said.


(The Centre County Drug Task Force will work with other organizations. Task force officers from Blair and Clearfield counties will be involved, Fisher said.)


In addition, Penn State Police Services, while not actively participating in the task force, will work closely with State College police, Fisher said.


Penn State police cannot pay their officers for the overtime they put into the task force, Conrad said. And because Penn State police are also understaffed, she said it makes it difficult for them to participate.


But Fisher warned drug dealers and users on campus should still be concerned, because information will be freely passed between police departments.


"Penn State police will be working with us," he said.


http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/1999/04/04-13-99tdc/04-13-99dnews-9.asp

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
First of all the task force has no jurisdiction in that it only applied to centre county. Ray met monthly on the task force to handle any problems within the task force which also included Lycombing county, Blair, HUNTINGDON, Clinton ect. Ray sat on the board of chiefs read my posted article it proves it.

Now if there was a problem going on in the task force in Lycombing area, remember the Lycombing DA placed Ungard in charge of the task force there. Maybe someone went to Ray being he was on the board of chiefs. What happens in Lycombing would affect the task force as a whole. What affects the whole includes RG in helping solve that problem. My question is who would have went to RG if this happened? [/*]

Again these other counties were not part of his jurisdiction. It is limited to Centre County. Anyone involved in the task force doesn't need to have a clandestine meeting fifty miles from Bellefonte.

[Cloudbuster]

Sure JJ. lol. Like I said he went for a breeze drive on a spring day and just didn't mind that 50 miles of driving.hammer

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
Sure JJ. lol. Like I said he went for a breeze drive on a spring day and just didn't mind that 50 miles of driving.hammer [/*]

So let's see. You are suggesting that RFG would drive fifty miles to meet with someone from, State College, Howard, or Centre Hall, maybe a 20 minute drive? :rolleyes:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks


Same guy who refuses to move the investigation higher to his former boss was, at the time, the Senior Deputy Attorney General for the Drug Task Force, his region included the following........
Counties: Blair, Centre, Clearfield, Clinton, Huntingdon, Juniata, Lycoming, Mifflin, Montour, Northumberland, Potter, Snyder, Tioga and Union. Still seems to me like the most likely 'candidate' RG would have been investigating in other counties.


Two problems.

1. Even it RFG was "investigating," except for Centre County, all are out of his jurisdiction.

2. Anyone with the AG's office could meet RFG locally, or in their own office, but not in a parking lot in Lewisburg. The AG has a regional office in the area, but it's in State College.

http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/theoffice.aspx?id=453

Note: You will have to click each link.

[J. J. in Phila]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by logicworks


I would think the most important matter regarding 'jurisdiction', if investigating, would be the county the person being investigated lives in, which in this case would be Centre County.

Add to that the person is running for public office.
Add to that, the person is seeking the office of the person who may have found something 'amiss', who then 'disappears'.

[quote]

If there was a clandestine meeting (and I love them), the question is why does there need to be one in Lewisburg? Any staff member could had a private meeting in RFG's office. This has to someone that would NOT want to be seen with RFG. PEF, JKA, SM, SS, everyone else with access could just walk in. MM has already been endorsed, so his presence would be explainable. He could discussing the campaign or the Lee case.

I could see someone saying **I have the dirt on MM, I don't want your staff to see me.**

It also could be someone that would be known in Bellefonte and recognizable by the staff. It also could be some one known by the residents. It also could have been selected because because it was closer to where the other person was

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks


What was 'kicked under the carpet'? What was TL referring to? It is a very strange statement in a court of law where TL, the accused, having been found guilty, is, by his statement, pointing toward 'something' that was done by the prosecutor. Is there no follow-up?


I would question how much Lee would know about the internal workings of the AG's, or any local DA's, office.


It is my understanding that RG would have been reviewing the case prior to the Drug Task Force prosecuting to ensure all was in order. Anyone have any idea how such things are handled? Are hard copies delivered to the DA's office? Or is it on disk? If the DA has recommended changes, are the changes made on disk and it then returned to the AG's office?


First, any review would obviously be limited to the cases within the DA's jurisdiction, and I'm far from from sure that there would be a review.

Second, it wouldn't surprise me if drafts and discussions regarding the case would go back and forth via e-mail, and e-mail attachments. The "final product" would almost have to be a hard copy, and filed in court.

The problem that I see is, why would any of these things be on a supposedly seldom used laptop? Home computer, maybe. Office computer, probably.

It that regard, if a draft was sent via the Internet, there would be a record on the ISP's main computer, probably including a copy of what was sent.

A second problen is that anyone sending something to RFG would have no idea:

1. If he copied it to another computer, zip drive, CD, or disk.

2. If he printed it out and had a hard copy someplace.

[Cinderella]

I don't care what anyone says, I still have trouble about what he was going to be a witness to in the Court on the following Monday that he disappeared. Supposedly is was a drug case. Did someone not want Ray to do this? Did Ray feel like his life was threatened if he did this? Also who all knew about this?

[Cinderella]

Welcome litchfield29, What he was to be doing on the following Monday after he disappeared is all hearsay to the people that think they know what was involved.

I wonder if Ray was doing some last minute things for which he would need to have all the loose ends tied up for Monday. I have always wondered if someone stopped him from being there. I wonder if we will ever know. The family seems to have given up hope of Ray being alive. Some people really know how to sell others stories. It seems that most people are hypnotized here in Happy Valley. Everything in this case has been a total mystery including all the players. Talk about a good suspense story, we have it here.

:shrug:

I was hoping that things would turn out different. It all is a Mystery. All of it. I wonder who doesn't want the cell phone records released? I am sure that the cell phone records could pretty much tell us what happened to Ray. Just like the Mini being moved so fast.....Oh, I don't want to get started again because I don't really thing more than a handful of posters care anymore.

:shrug:

Oh boy, would I like to see the money trail. Then again anymore if a person questions anything they are a conspiracy theorist or being unreal.

I know for a fact that my family would never stop searching if I were to go missing. The same for others in my family. I would never give up. I would want to see some justice. After all, isn't that what Ray stood for?

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by litchfield29


After reading 100's of opinions on this very old case, I agree with no one's theory, except yours. I have always thought that case was directly tied to his disappearance.

I feel he was disposed of.

my opinions. [/*]

How can we find out what that case was all about? We all know it was a drug case but how can we find out exactly what some of the details was?:read:

[Cloudbuster]

Thanks LW for explaining about what I was trying to explain to JJ. You explained it and clearified it, thanks! Thank God for your ability to explain things period!!:rose:

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by logicworks


What exactly is meant by 'that case'?

Originally we were told that RG was called to fill-in for an attorney who couldn't be there for the case.

Then on 7-10-07, SJ states the following...
quote......."Another question is the court hearing on Monday, the 18th, after RG disappeared. He was to TESTIFY, at a hearing for a drug case a ADA was having. Is that normal, for RG to testify in cases? On drugs? Who was the case against and what happened at the hearing? Is there a docket number to the case?" End of quote.

When and how did RG move from 'filling-in' to 'testifying'? Which ADA? I don't recall reading anything about his 'testifying' on Monday other than on this board.

WHY would RG be testifying in a drug case? I am not at all familiar with case procedure. Does an ADA or a DA testify in court re: drug cases? How does 'filling-in' for someone else fit in? Maybe someone who knows something about procedure could answer that question for me.
JMO [/*]


Logic, the whole thing is a mystery to me. I don't recall ever seeing anything about it in the CDT. I could have possibly overlooked it, but usually someone reads or hears information about things that other people might miss.

[Cloudbuster]

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2005/04/04-01-05tdc/04-01-05dnews-07.asp
article dated Friday April 1, 2005---so
Preliminary hearings are scheduled for Wednesday. That would be April 6th 2005. So preliminary began 9 days before Ray disappeared. MM seems right in with RG on this at that time.


[ Friday, April 1, 2005 ]

Six arrested in heroin case
Investigation into open case yields 'largest operation in Centre County'


By Drew Curley
Collegian Staff Writer
A grand jury investigation resulted in the arrests and arraignments of six people yesterday, as part of what the Attorney General's Office has called the "largest heroin operation that we have ever seen in Centre County."

"In the years of 2003 and 2004 based on testimony, we estimated it was $1 million worth of heroin and a half a million dollars in cocaine, in street price," Senior Deputy Attorney General Michael Madeira said.

Among those arrested and arraigned were Kenyon Ebeling, 36, of 795 Ashworth Lane, Boalsburg; Shauna Foss, 25, of 118 N. Pennsylvania Ave., Centre Hall; Michelle Sopp, 20, of 1400 Martin St.; Nicholas Oswald, 25, of 3130 Sheffield Drive; Trista Shope of 664 Southgate Drive; and Joseph McGlaughlin, 36, of 1632 Birchcourt St.

Taji Lee, 24, of Newark, N.J., who is currently being held on $1 million bail in Centre County Prison for other drug violations, is now being held on an additional $500,000 for new charges related to yesterday's arrests.

Jenna Reeves, 54, of 908 Kay Street, Boalsburg, was in the hospital and will be charged with one count of drug delivery and one count of conspiracy, Madeira said.

Bradley Arzner, 25, of 911 W. Aaron Drive, is a fugitive wanted in connection with the drug charges, including seven counts of possession with intent to deliver the drugs, Madeira said.

Madeira said the grand jury investigation provided a broad view of the criminal activities because officials can take testimony from past events.

"We have the best of both worlds," he said. "The grand jury lets us look at the historical case, the case over time [and] the undercover investigation lets us put drugs on the table and say, 'This is what he was dealing.' "

The grand jury allows for investigators to subpoena witnesses and documents and gain important testimony for evidence, Madeira said.

Madeira said different drug offenses can "stack up" and create longer mandatory minimum sentences.

"The court has the ability to stack up multiple [drug] deliveries and sentence Lee to a longer term," he said.

Lee was charged with nine counts of possession with intent to deliver, one count of conspiracy, one count of money laundering, four counts of criminal use of a communication facility and one count of drug delivery resulting in death, according to court documents.

According to a police press release, Ebeling is charged with six counts of possession with intent to deliver, one count of conspiracy, money laundering and criminal use of a communications facility. Foss is charged with two counts of possession with intent to deliver, one count of conspiracy and criminal use of a communication facility. Sopp is charged with one count of drug delivery, conspiracy and criminal use of a communications facility. Oswald is charged with two counts of possession with intent to deliver and one count of conspiracy. Shope is charged with one count of possession with intent to deliver and conspiracy. McGlaughlin is charged with two counts of possession with intent to deliver and one count of conspiracy.

Fosse, Shope and McGlaughlin were committed to Centre County Prison in lieu of $100,000 bail each. Oswald, Sopp and Ebeling were released on $100,000 bail each.

Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar said heroin and cocaine are problems that have been increasing throughout Pennsylvania.

"This was investigated by a statewide grand jury and as a result, drug charges being filed," he said. "It's a significant victory for combined law enforcement to deal with the drug problem."

Gricar said the Centre County Drug Task Force provided the initial information and as the investigation progressed, the Attorney General's Office began to investigate.

The investigation began in late 2004, after the grand jury received reports of Lee distributing heroin and cocaine in Centre County, according to court documents.

Preliminary hearings are scheduled for Wednesday.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks


What exactly is meant by 'that case'?

Originally we were told that RG was called to fill-in for an attorney who couldn't be there for the case.


My understanding was that RFG might have to testify about the legal relationship between an ADA and a witness in the drug case. He would argue that the ADA could examine the witness. If that failed, he could examine the witness.

I have that second hand, but from TG, who posted it. RFG didn't have any direct knowledge of the case.

Now, that doesn't sound too usual, but some other ADA could examine the witness, if not testify about the prior dealings between the ADA and the witness.

If that's all that there is, I don't see anything that would lead to murder.

[puzzled]

I do. You need to take your sunglasses off JJ.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by puzzled
I do. You need to take your sunglasses off JJ. [/*]

What? At worst, if the situation was as reported, another ADA questions the witness. Unless there was something else there, that would have the worst case scenario for the DA's office.:cool:

[Cloudbuster]

Okay if I was to read this statement what does it mean legally? Can someone explain?
MOTION TO RECUSE CORRUPT AND POLLUT
MOTION TO RECUSE CORRUPT AND POLLUTED STATE/COUNTY ACTOR (name omitted) PURPORTED
JUDGE AND/OR TO STRIKE SAMES "ORDER" AS VOID AND HEARING BEFORE UNBIASED JUDGE AS IS BASIC
REQUIREMENT OF CONST. DUE PROCESS/EQUAL PROTECTION OF LAW, FILED.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
Okay if I was to read this statement what does it mean legally? Can someone explain?
MOTION TO RECUSE CORRUPT AND POLLUT
MOTION TO RECUSE CORRUPT AND POLLUTED STATE/COUNTY ACTOR (name omitted) PURPORTED
JUDGE AND/OR TO STRIKE SAMES "ORDER" AS VOID AND HEARING BEFORE UNBIASED JUDGE AS IS BASIC
REQUIREMENT OF CONST. DUE PROCESS/EQUAL PROTECTION OF LAW, FILED. [/*]

It sound sort of like a motion to ask for a change of judges.

[Cloudbuster]

okay then why would RG need to do that considering RG is a defendant? Also I see it was moved to Centre C.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster okay then why would RG need to do that considering RG is a defendant? Also I see it was moved to Centre C. Lest others be confused, aren't you talking about a state convict with access to the Internet's standard 'circle jerk' for the recently incarcerated...rather than someone connected with RG's scheduled court appearance on Monday, 4/18/05?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
okay then why would RG need to do that considering RG is a defendant? Also I see it was moved to Centre C. [/*]

Whomever filed that is alleging that that the judge is biased against their side. That side can be either or both the prosecution or the defense.

[Cloudbuster]

I was looking at a 2003 case under the UJS portal under the section other criteria. It was a case that RG was a defendant and I just wanted to try to understand the meaning of the legal terms. I thought that maybe it may yeild something missed. If you type in a name and click on centre county it will bring up the cases.
http://ujsportal.pacourts.us/WebDocketSheets/OtherCriteria.aspx

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
I was looking at a 2003 case under the UJS portal under the section other criteria. It was a case that RG was a defendant and I just wanted to try to understand the meaning of the legal terms. I thought that maybe it may yeild something missed. If you type in a name and click on centre county it will bring up the cases.
http://ujsportal.pacourts.us/WebDocketSheets/OtherCriteria.aspx [/*]

It's a writ of Habeas Corpus where an in prison is claiming he was properly convicted; the judge dismissed the case.

[Cinderella]

I keep thinking about the soul mate bit. If my soul mate was taking a day off to do something, it would be nice if he would include me. Most soul mates don't always work together, but they love being together. I am sorry, but if he had been my soul mate, I would have said something like, oh can't you wait until I am off tomorrow, I would like to go along.

It is my opinion that the relationship with his soul mate had reached the end. It baffled me as to why the cold shoulder to Vicki Wedler in the park. I could see it happening if two people were breaking up. People do still hold hand when a relationship is just ending. You try to be friendly to that other person. You have spent time with them and you still do care somewhat.

TG has yet to tell me if he called the man that saw Ray that a.m. I think that the family don't want PF's storyline messed with for some reason.

PF knows more than we do. Why take the car from the scene so fast?

I feel like the people have been used in someone's scheme. That really bothers me.

Her changing jobs is baffling. Didn't LE pick up on that. It is only my opinion that she changed jobs to be closer to Ray to keep track of him. What was she looking for. Did she think that he was having an affair? Was something going on in her other position that was causing her problems? Was she having emotional problems? Was she pressuring Ray for marriage before retirement? The car, the house was all good but a ring on the finger would have been better. She stated that the car was put in her name because of lawsuits. Ray stated that it was a gift to her. Who lied? For what reason was the lie?

I really feel that that car was not Ray's type. I could see him in a fancy flashy sports car, but I don't think that he chose the car for himself. It looks too much like a married man's car to me. I would love to talk to the salesman that sold Ray the car. That way, we could get a better perception of what went on. I do think that it was PF's idea to get the car back so soon. I think that she was teed off about something. Who knows maybe thinking that someone would find a little more evidence. What is a car that was driven without prints. I would not have concerned Ray one bit if he drove it. That to me suggests foul play. Even if he was to committ suicide, he would not care if there were any prints in the car. Lets just put it this way. The car had to have been wiped down no matter what LE says.

These are all just my thoughts. Does anyone feel the same way?

[Cinderella]

Another thing, supposedly she made plans for a retirement dinner. Maybe things turned out that wouldn't include her in retirement. After going through all the work of arranging things that would not be good. JMO

People that snap. Hmmmm Just talking outloud to myself. Just my opinons. Maybe Ray's body will never be found because it might have contained some type of something to drug or poision him. That would show up in a body system.

People can start to cry just thinking what they did. A lot of times though, they got to pull themselves together and not think about it. Could that be the Crocodile Tear Syndrome. You really do choke up, but then you got pull yourself together so that no one finds out.

I also think that there is a big lie and I think many of us posters kinda know who the lie belongs to.

Just some more of my Cindyism. Worry about our DA being missing when not too many other care and someone is getting off from being persecuted. After all they took the Bible out of the courtroom, so do we really have to be concerned here on earth that we tell the truth and swear to God. ??? Somthing to think about.

[J. J. in Phila]

First, If this was murder, one reason to hide a body would be to hide evidence. It would not necessarily be poisoning, however. A bullet could be traced as well. Initially, at least, so could DNA left on the body as a result of a struggle. It would be limited to poison or drugs. I'm not certain if either drugs, poison or DNA (left by someone other than RFG) could be traced at this point.

PEF's change in jobs, however, isn't unusual, if both were planning to leave after a new administration.

Likewise, it isn't too unusual for one person in the couple to take off. We should remember that it happened on 4/14/05 as well.

[Serendipitous1]

"Buehner also recommended investigators interview McKnight about a witness that claimed to have seen Gricar on U.S. Route 15 the Friday after his disappearance. McKnight said the man, who was traveling with his wife toward Lewisburg at 5 p.m. on the day of Gricar's disappearance, pulled up beside a red Mini Cooper driven by a man they recognized as Gricar."
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2008/07/03/letter_irks_county_da.aspx

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
"Buehner also recommended investigators interview McKnight about a witness that claimed to have seen Gricar on U.S. Route 15 the Friday after his disappearance. McKnight said the man, who was traveling with his wife toward Lewisburg at 5 p.m. on the day of Gricar's disappearance, pulled up beside a red Mini Cooper driven by a man they recognized as Gricar."
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2008/07/03/letter_irks_county_da.aspx [/*]

That wouldn't conflict with the other witnesses, necessarily. Some put RFG in Lewisburg around 5:30 PM. He could have easily been seen on Route 15 at 5:00 PM and been in Lewisburg by 5:30 PM.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks
Bringing this link over for discussion.......(Thanks, S1, for providing it in the links.) Although it is about reward fund, it is also about inheritance.


http://www.centrelaw.com/page.php?id=40


Interested parties recently asked me a question:
'How is it that the two who had the most to gain ended up in control of the investigation?' The person questioning believes the two to be PF and MM. I will pass this article along.



I'd like you, or the "interested party" explain how PEF and MM have anything to gain? I'd also like you or "interested party" to explain how PEF is in "control" of the investigation.



RG was married and divorced, so one could assume after the second divorce a new will would have been executed.
What we don't know is when his last will was executed, and who would benefit is such a change had taken place. I know we have been told RG's money is none of our business, but inheritance surely is an avenue LE has traveled, particularly if they believed RG was possibly suicidal, with LE having waved it around now as possibility for well over three years.


We have, however, been told that the will was presented in the guardianship process, and we know the result, LG was named guardian. He have also been told that the accounts existing at the time were jointly in the name of LG and RFG.

I think this gives us some pretty solid hints.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
First, If this was murder, one reason to hide a body would be to hide evidence. It would not necessarily be poisoning, however. A bullet could be traced as well. Initially, at least, so could DNA left on the body as a result of a struggle. It would be limited to poison or drugs. I'm not certain if either drugs, poison or DNA (left by someone other than RFG) could be traced at this point.

PEF's change in jobs, however, isn't unusual, if both were planning to leave after a new administration.

Likewise, it isn't too unusual for one person in the couple to take off. We should remember that it happened on 4/14/05 as well. [/*]

I just read a true crime book: "Everything She Ever Wanted" by Ann Rule. The person the story is about (Pat Taylor) from a southern state, was using arsenic to poison her husbands grandparents and members of her family. They took fingernail clippings and hair clippings from the back of the head, near the neck and were able to tell these people were poisoned. No matter how long ago it was done, even after burial, it would have shown up. It leaves "markers" from each time period it had been done. The woman in the book was a real piece of work, even to her children she did evil deeds, killing her in-laws, her brother, and seriously injuring babies and others with her evil deeds.

With arsenic they ended up in the hospital within a short time, it affecting the internal parts as well as muscles, bones. The people live but they are never the same again.

I certainly pray that wasn't what happened to him but if it did and his body found, it would be noted in autopsy.

[J. J. in Phila]

You'd think with something like arsenic, RFG would feel sick and see a doctor. That would probably take long exposure.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
You'd think with something like arsenic, RFG would feel sick and see a doctor. That would probably take long exposure. [/*]

No, I don't mean or think that RG was poisoned with arsenic.

I only mean as a poison, that one can be checked with nail and hair clippings, even after many years (if a person it was used on disappeared, theoretically). It is one, of maybe more, that stay in the system, (and no matter how long those 2 elderly people and child live in Ann Rule's book, it will stay in their system). Like a tree has markers of age, arsenic leaves it's mark too.

And I agree, it would have been a very noticeable illness to bring him down, but if not suspected of poisoning, it wouldn't normally be checked as a cause of the illness. There would have been a lot more symptoms of illness instead of just being tired and out of sorts that RG had. There was bleeding going on.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981

And I agree, it would have been a very noticeable illness to bring him down, but if not suspected of poisoning, it wouldn't normally be checked as a cause of the illness. There would have been a lot more symptoms of illness instead of just being tired and out of sorts that RG had. There was bleeding going on. [/*]

The problem that I've had with poisoning is something similar.

Yes, some poisons can be found well after death. Some either make the person sick first and if you were trying to slowly kill him, you don't want him getting sick and going to the doctor or calling 911.

And, in all fairness, a murderer might not have wanted a bullet found, either.

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm trying to get a list of the approximite times (and days) that RFG was seen in Lewisburg.

Can anyone help?

[Cloudbuster]

Sunday, Jul. 24, 2005
Gricar mystery fading from memories in Lewisburg
By Mike Joseph- mjoseph@centredaily.com

LEWISBURG — Thick weeds crowd the Susquehanna River banks, and the water rides much lower than it did 14 weeks ago, revealing a log here and a boulder there that in spring were sunken and out of sight.



The abandoned railroad bridge over the Susquehanna River near the intersection North Water Street and St. John Street in Lewisburg by the Street of Shops building where Centre Count District Attorney Ray Gricar's car was found.

But there's no sign of Ray Gricar.

The riverside moorings have long been cleared of last winter's clinging debris, and two popular boating holidays -- Memorial Day and the Fourth of July -- have come and gone since the Centre County district attorney vanished after taking a Friday off from work and driving here, an hour east of Bellefonte.

There's been no sign of him since, and the vortex of the unexplained that once pulled in detectives, rescue crews, reporters and the neighborhood curious no longer consumes so much attention.

Or so it seemed last week at an antiques mall restaurant, the Remember When Cafe, where police think the district attorney was last seen.

"So how's the search for Ray Gricar going?" a reporter asked waitress Bobi Keiser.


"For who?" Keiser said.

"Ray Gricar."

"Oh, is that that DA guy?"

"Yes."

"You don't hear too much about it any more."

The restaurant, a milkshake and hamburger stop that spotlights nostalgia for Elvis Presley and other rock 'n' roll icons, was not quite ready to open on the weekend Gricar disappeared. On that Saturday, April 16, antiques mall owner Craig Bennett stopped by about((( noon ))))to check on the last phase of construction.

Bennett noticed a man standing eight to 10 feet away. The man stood there five to 10 minutes, neither shopping nor browsing. When Bellefonte detectives converged on the Street of Shops antiques mall after Gricar disappeared, Bennett told them repeatedly that the man fit the district attorney's description.

Last week, Bennett remained steadfast in his recollection. Bennett saw nothing else that was relevant. He didn't see the man interact with anyone, and he didn't notice how the man came to leave the mall. But Bennett's apparent sighting of Gricar -- detectives call it a "visual on Ray" -- has given him an eyes-on connection to the mystery and, for a time, helped fuel hope that Gricar may be alive somewhere.

(((("He looked anxious," Bennett said last week. "He was not a relaxed person. He was waiting for someone."))))

Bennett dismisses suggestions that Gricar may have jumped off a nearby bridge into the Susquehanna River or otherwise drowned there. With water only about 30 inches deep now, the river bottom shows quite clearly from above, and fish can be easily spotted navigating their way through the deepest of quite shallow channels.

"They would have found him if he'd jumped," Bennett said.

Detectives have had less and less presence in the area as the time has gone by, (((but Bennett did notice plain-clothes agents nosing around one day within the past month.)))

Gricar's car, a red-and-white Mini Cooper, was found in the antiques mall parking lot after he disappeared -- one of the case's few anchoring facts around which many have tried to lash their theories, however inconclusive.

"How can something so bizarre happen and still be unexplained at this time?" Bennett said. "Somebody knows. That car didn't beam itself down here. It got here somehow."

In the oaken taproom of the Lewisburg Hotel, two blocks from the antiques mall, radio station owner Don Steese and bartender Terri Peterson chatted over the lunch hour.

The small talk had nothing to do with Gricar, though Steese and Peterson allowed that three months ago it might have.

"That's yesterday's news -- not top of mind any more," Steese said.
http://www.centredaily.com/news/ray_gricar/story/3790.html
Peterson joked that Gricar was probably off somewhere with Elvis or Jim Morrison, another rock star who died young, but then she got serious. She recalled how, in the early days of the investigation, detectives asked her and others at the hotel to try to remember whether they'd seen Gricar.

The bar gets fairly crowded on weekends, Peterson said, especially with middle-aged men, and she hadn't been able to help the police.

"I wish I could have said, 'Yes, I saw him,' but I couldn't," she said. "How would I know if he was in here? I see how many people a day ... ?"

Mike Joseph can be reached at 235-3910.

[J. J. in Phila]

Okay:

4/15/05

4/16/05

Bennett @Noon

[sherrijean981]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cloudbuster
Sunday, Jul. 24, 2005
Gricar mystery fading from memories in Lewisburg
By Mike Joseph- mjoseph@centredaily.com

LEWISBURG —

I've clipped some of the info from the story CB just put up:

Quote:

"Bennett noticed a man standing eight to 10 feet away. The man stood there five to 10 minutes, neither shopping nor browsing. "

"When Bellefonte detectives converged on the Street of Shops antiques mall after Gricar disappeared, Bennett told them repeatedly that the man fit the district attorney's description."

"Last week, Bennett remained steadfast in his recollection. Bennett saw nothing else that was relevant. He didn't see the man interact with anyone, and he didn't notice how the man came to leave the mall."

(((("He looked anxious," Bennett said last week. "He was not a relaxed person. He was waiting for someone."))))"
Quote

I thought Bennett was the one who saw Ray walking and talking to a woman? Not romantically but talking to her?

[J. J. in Phila]

SJ, I don't think so.

We have one witness, a store owner, That saw RFG around 5:00 PM on either 4/15 or 4/16. Two workers that saw RFG sometime around Saturday. The woman at the Museum (I don't remember when). Bennett saw him at noon on 4/16.

Several others saw RFG go into the lot between 4:30-5:30 PM. There are the witness that saw RFG getting into a car and one that saw him with the "mystery woman." I don't know which ones overlap.

McKnight's witness saw him on Route 15 at about 5:00 PM on 4/15. Keep in mind that Route 15 runs through Lewisburg and is only about 0.7 miles from where the Mini was found. It is very possible that he saw RFG as he was heading to the parking lot.

I'm looking at two things:

1. No AM sightings at all.

2, No sightings between roughly 1:30 PM and 4:30 PM either day.

[Cloudbuster]

Except Fentons sighting?
http://fromwhisperstor.6.forumer.com/a/ray-gricar-missing-attorney-41505_post2016-15.html

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
Except Fentons sighting?
http://fromwhisperstor.6.forumer.com/a/ray-gricar-missing-attorney-41505_post2016-15.html [/*]

I'm trying to limit this to the Lewisburg area. If RFG was sitting behind the courthouse at 3?00 PM, that would explain the gap i

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
SJ, I don't think so.

We have one witness, a store owner, That saw RFG around 5:00 PM on either 4/15 or 4/16. Two workers that saw RFG sometime around Saturday. The woman at the Museum (I don't remember when). Bennett saw him at noon on 4/16.

Several others saw RFG go into the lot between 4:30-5:30 PM. There are the witness that saw RFG getting into a car and one that saw him with the "mystery woman." I don't know which ones overlap.

McKnight's witness saw him on Route 15 at about 5:00 PM on 4/15. Keep in mind that Route 15 runs through Lewisburg and is only about 0.7 miles from where the Mini was found. It is very possible that he saw RFG as he was heading to the parking lot.

I'm looking at two things:

1. No AM sightings at all.

2, No sightings between roughly 1:30 PM and 4:30 PM either day. [/*]

Who was the person who reported seeing RG with a woman at the SOS? How did the "mystery woman" get in the story?

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


I'm looking at two things:

1. No AM sightings at all.

2, No sightings between roughly 1:30 PM and 4:30 PM either day. [/*]


Was the man Cinderella talked to when she was in the hospital, ever interviewed about his siting of RG at the red light on Rt 144 & Rt 192, in Centre Hall? He saw him on his way to work. That is an AM siting.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981



Was the man Cinderella talked to when she was in the hospital, ever interviewed about his siting of RG at the red light on Rt 144 & Rt 192, in Centre Hall? He saw him on his way to work. That is an AM siting. [/*]

That one is a bit questionable (he never went to the police) and isn't close to Lewisburg.

It's just like the I-80 sightings or Fenton; they are not in Lewisburg.

[Cloudbuster]

JJ here is the SOS hours and look what is easy traveling areas from it. We often asked the question why Lewisburg, so perhaps it was easier for the other person to get to??? Notice they are never open past 5 pm.

http://www.streetofshops.net/contactus.asp
Contact Us

We are conveniently located off of Routes 80 and 15 in Central Pennsylvania, this makes trips from(((( New York,(( Maryland, ))((Ohio)), (((West Virginia,))) (New Jersey )and Pennsylvania easy.))) We encourage you to visit us, for directions and maps click here.


The Street Of Shops
100 North Water Street
Lewisburg, PA 17837
phone: 570-524-5765
fax: 570-524-5768
Info@streetofshops.net Open 7 days a week!
Monday - Saturday 10 am to 5 pm
Sunday 8 am to 5pm.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
JJ here is the SOS hours and look what is easy traveling areas from it. We often asked the question why Lewisburg, so perhaps it was easier for the other person to get to??? Notice they are never open past 5 pm.

[/*]

Geographically, Lewisburg is interesting. It's close to I-80, but so is Bellefonte. I worked out the time from the Lewisburg parking lot to these places (one way):

Harrisburg: 1:14
Wilkes-Barre: 1:15
Scranton: 1:26
Wellsboro: 1:31
Lebanon: 1:37
York: 1:47
Allentown: 1:47
Altoona (backtracking): 1:51
Lancaster: 1:54

(Times approximate)

That's one of the reasons I wanted to see when the Lewisburg witnesses saw RFG.

Basically, I was trying to see if RFG drove to Lewisburg, left and came back; yo'd have to double the time. Could someone from one of areas met RFG in Lewisburg? Yes.

I pointed this out a while back, Lewisburg is not in the Johnstown-Altoona-State College media market. If RFG had driven the same distance anyplace west or south of Bellefonte, he'd still be in the J-A-SC media market. It's only when he travels east or northeast that he leaves the J-A-SC media market.

Conservatively, the odds that he'd end up randomly outside the J-A-SC are about 35%. They may be closer to 25%.

Lewisburg would be a very good place to be if RFG didn't want to be recognized by someone who saw him on television. If he was meeting someone that would have recognizable in the J-A-SC media market, the same would be true.

Lewisburg also has one disadvantage; there is very little mass transit, basically bus, car rental, and taxi (the latter two would probably leave a nice long paper trail).

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Geographically, Lewisburg is interesting. It's close to I-80, but so is Bellefonte. I worked out the time from the Lewisburg parking lot to these places (one way):

Harrisburg: 1:14
Wilkes-Barre: 1:15
Scranton: 1:26
Wellsboro: 1:31
Lebanon: 1:37
York: 1:47
Allentown: 1:47
Altoona (backtracking): 1:51
Lancaster: 1:54

(Times approximate)

That's one of the reasons I wanted to see when the Lewisburg witnesses saw RFG.

Basically, I was trying to see if RFG drove to Lewisburg, left and came back; yo'd have to double the time. Could someone from one of areas met RFG in Lewisburg? Yes.

I pointed this out a while back, Lewisburg is not in the Johnstown-Altoona-State College media market. If RFG had driven the same distance anyplace west or south of Bellefonte, he'd still be in the J-A-SC media market. It's only when he travels east or northeast that he leaves the J-A-SC media market.

Conservatively, the odds that he'd end up randomly outside the J-A-SC are about 35%. They may be closer to 25%.

Lewisburg would be a very good place to be if RFG didn't want to be recognized by someone who saw him on television. If he was meeting someone that would have recognizable in the J-A-SC media market, the same would be true.

Lewisburg also has one disadvantage; there is very little mass transit, basically bus, car rental, and taxi (the latter two would probably leave a nice long paper trail). [/*]

What about "Call-A-Ride"? I always thought it was for the elderly but when my granddaughter lived with me, one of the agencies we were dealing with told her to use it, it was not just for the elderly and was not too costly. They picked you up and deliver you and you call when you need the ride back.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


What about "Call-A-Ride"? I always thought it was for the elderly but when my granddaughter lived with me, one of the agencies we were dealing with told her to use it, it was not just for the elderly and was not too costly. They picked you up and deliver you and you call when you need the ride back. [/*]

First, I don't know if you can just call and get a ride. I mean, if I had their number, drove to Lewisburg, and called them on a pay phone, I don't know if they'd come and drive me someplace.

Second, I'd bet there would be a record.

Third, with the amount of press coverage, I'd expect the driver to come forward (and claim the reward).

It's the same think with hitchhiking or getting a lift. Unless the guy who drove him was leaving for Afghanistan or something, he's probably going to realize he just took RFG someplace.

[Serendipitous1]

ONCE UPON (a midnight dreary) I see the full moon clearly
The wind sounds eerie (don't it chill your spine?)
And don't these shadows make you leery? (Cause with dark there's dirt)
THE PLACE OF BIRTH OF THE EVIL MAN'S WORK [wolf howls] ~ Wolf Man Jack

This is for all you Gricar fanatics, or rather about you (us).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRPzJWeICzY

[J. J. in Phila]

You know, nearly two years ago, I asked about the possibilities regarding RFG getting out of Lewisburg.

I still have not gotten an answer.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
You know, nearly two years ago, I asked about the possibilities regarding RFG getting out of Lewisburg. I still have not gotten an answer. Getting out of Lewisburg would be the easy part. You have wanted to look at means. I am still stuck on motive. And...please spare me the trip down memory lane. We will just have to disagree. Go figure.

But I do have a certain cell phone number in mind. I wonder when it was last used by RG.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Getting out of Lewisburg would be the easy part. You have wanted to look at means. I am still stuck on motive. And...please spare me the trip down memory lane. We will just have to disagree. Go figure.


It's not that hard, but it would leave either a paper trail or a helper, with some gap in his or her schedule. I seriously doubt if that could be hidden successfully.

You can be stuck on motive, but we've had no shortage of potential motives, except the obvious one, money.


But I do have a certain cell phone number in mind. I wonder when it was last used by RG. [/*]

I don't know which one, but that might be a clue.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks




Most likely reasons I can think of for why he or someone else would have chosen that location is because 1) he was meeting someone from out of town, 2) it was an in-between meet with both driving somewhat equal distances and 3) he had been at the SOS at sometime in the past with that person so he knew the person was familiar with the location.


Out of town could be one reason, but that would include an "in between," situation.

Lewisburg has one other important characteristic; it's out the J-A-SC media market. If either party was seen on television in that market often and didn't want to be seen with the other party, Lewisburg is an extremely good choice. There is literally only 25%-35% chance that RFG could drive for the same time or distance, in any direction and be out of that media market.


If he was with someone in Tyrone, as the husband and wife said he was, seems likely it was the same person, considering......
1) same description given, 2) at two locations where antiques are sold, 3) it appears to be somewhere within the same time period, not years apart, but weeks apart. I have always thought it is most likely the Tyrone 'date' was the same day at the AG drug bust announcement, and judging from the look on RG's face, I would guess he may very well have had something more on his mind that antiquing.


The drug bust press conference would have been organized in advance. "Madeira's charge" hastily arranged press conference announcement went out the day before.

We also have Buehner's comments that he wasn't close to TC.

As for the Tyrone, the woman was probably PEF.


It seems unlikely to me that RG planned to leave with someone never to return to his car. It seems more likely he either left his car or her car in the SOS lot, and returned there somewhere close to 5 pm to either pick up his car, or to drop her off at her car. Was someone having him or her watched? And is so, why?
I seriously doubt it was a cozy 'liason' with another woman.


Buehner is the one who suggested checking motels for her. I seriously doubt that, if there was LMW, RFG was doing some type of surveillance on her.


Question then is.........Did he want to meet with her to discuss something that had to do with their previous meeting? Something else he might have found out? Was someone afraid of what he might do with information?


There are two problems. First, you are assume that the woman in Lewisburg was a mystery woman; PEF says it was her. Second, a criminal investigation while in an antiques shop in another county? Even if it wasn't PEF, that really shatters any credibility.



Or was it only to spend the day 'antiquing'? That seems unlikely considering that was a place he and PF frequented. It he was off 'dallying around' and avoiding being recognized, that was no more a likely choice to take an 'other' than was the Tyrone shop. IMO, it would have been 'business' being discussed.



Again some problems. RFG wasn't particularly well known in Lewisburg and wouldn't be too recognizable from television. I have not heard anyone in Lewisburg saying, "Oh yes, I remember the last time he was here." Second, you making the assumption that RFG didn't want to be seen with the LMW; it might have been the LMW who didn't want to be seen with RFG. That could be the case if she providing him evidence (as in the Murder Scenario), or if there was some romantic involvement that she didn't want to come out.


If someone was having him watched, what happened next? We are told he was seen driving his car at 5 pm on Route 15 'somewhere', but we aren't told where, in which direction, or whether he was alone. If the Mini was pulling in the SOS lot around 5 pm, seems likely it had to be because someone else's car was parked there. Was someone else, one of the 'observers' waiting there? Is that where the man said to have been leaning in the window comes in?


We know that the car was heading toward Lewisburg. It's very to have been reasonably close (if not in) Lewisburg. Route 15 is only about a 0.7 from the parking lot. Time wise, it could have gotten to the parking lot, easily to be that 4:30-5:30 window. It might not add that much to the story.



No signs of a struggle, so what would cause RG to get out of the car peacefully? I guess a weapon could cause that or a threat of harm to the woman if RG didn't do as he was told. If this is the source of the smoke and ashes, certainly doesn't seem like it would have been someone 'friendly' with RG. Lots more


Probably no. RFG could easily run out of the car and to people. The area is well populated, since most shooters are not experts. It also doesn't account for the movements of his car in the parking lot.



I don't believe the Saturday sightings were him. No reason for him to hang around Lewisburg if he planned on leaving.


It would if he was planning to remove a few things first. Likewise, he might spending the night to be with someone.

[Cloudbuster]

JJ am I interpreting you that RG might have met with someone from Johnstown. Altoona, or state College area?

LW I can believe someone's watched RG. I know this is the wrong thread for this but the tape speaks of that.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
JJ am I interpreting you that RG might have met with someone from Johnstown. Altoona, or state College area?



No, not necessarily.

RFG was a public official for 20 years. He has been on television in the J-A-SC media market a reasonably amount of time during that period (though obviously not daily). Because of that, it is much more likely that he'd be recognized if he were in Altoona, Johnstown, or Clearfield. If he was meeting someone known in J-A-SC media market, and either party didn't want to be seen together, or RFG didn't care, but the other person did, that could lead to Lewisburg.

Your favorite suspect, Murtha, has a problem. It is a lot easier for him to meet someplace south east of Bellefonte, like Carlisle or Chambersburg. It's closer and arguably a bit better drive.

Basically, if you drive 25 miles from Bellefonte in any direction, you are within the J-A-SC media market. If you drive 50 miles to the west of Bellefonte, any point west, you are still in the J-A-SC media market.

P'gal was famous for the "what are odd" questions. Okay, what are the odds that the Mini would randomly be found outside within 50 miles of Bellefonte but outside of the J-A-SC media market? 25-35%, or 65%-75% against. That tells me that it might not be random.

[J. J. in Phila]

Just a note; I'm having some computer line problems, again. I think a tree fell on the line.

One phone line is out out as is the cable; the phone line I'm on is intermittent.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
It's not that hard, but it would leave either a paper trail or a helper, with some gap in his or her schedule. I seriously doubt if that could be hidden successfully.

You can be stuck on motive, but we've had no shortage of potential motives, except the obvious one, money.

I don't know which one, but that might be a clue. There have been so many, MANY good questions left unanswered. I have only ever wanted to know if RG's disappearance was as a direct consequence of his chosen career. One would think that should have been uppermost on TC's mind, let alone MS and MM. All of them have failed Ray Gricar and his loved ones miserably. And in so doing, they have all failed the public trust they swore to protect and serve.

I know why I avoid the idiot in the mirror. But I wonder why those in authority do likewise, stumbling over themselves to look like fools...assuming they are not. Whatever they did or did not do, and whatever they will or will not do, their "reward" surely awaits them.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks


When did PF say she was the MW in Lewisburg?



Sorry for being unclear; no, Tyrone. You've been equating the two and we have the "Tyrone sighting" explained.



The discussion could have focused on 'trouble brewing' that involved two offices, and concerns RG may have had. It didn't have to be a 'date' nor did it have to be him having her under surveillance, nor did it have to include him spending the night with 'her'. IMO, someone was watching, so what were they watching for?


What two offices?


Remove WHAT things first?


Where exactly both of the "old friends," were, the nurse, and the woman from Harrisburg.


Spend the night with WHO?



Do you completely deny ANY possibility that RFG MIGHT have been a woman?


Do you honestly believe that RG, after informing PF of his route of travel at 11:30 am, would think for one minute that she wouldn't call LE if he didn't return home or that he wouldn't have cared if LE found him in a motel room? If he was leaving, he was gone.


He did like to drive and he might have assumed, correctly, that even if there was a call, LE would not do too much until the next morning. Ah, I hate to tell you this, but romantic encounters can occur in the afternoon.


If the only way to make a theory work is by changing the person's character, IMO, it is 99% likely the theory is incorrect.
JMO [/*]

It's not a "theory," but a possibility. Saying, **Oh, he wouldn't do that,** really isn't a good answer.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks


What movements of his car in the parking lot?



IIRC, witnesses saw RFG in the parking lot prior to the sighting by the woman at the Museum, and prior to McKnight's witness, at about 5:00 PM.


If someone was observed leaning in the passenger side, we have yet to hear whether they also observed a passenger. If someone wanted to control RG, seems likely they would have been on the driver's side, not on the passenger side. Was he alone?
JMO [/*]

We also have a witness who saw him getting into a car (reported in the Altoona Mirror).

As I've pointed out before, it is not a good idea to tell someone you are trying to kidnap to drive, as they can smash the car into a tree. Likewise, even if at gunpoint, the victim can run, leaving the kidnapper to either run away or start firing in the middle of a street. It's not a particularly good way to kidnap someone.

We can see a similar situation in the Brian Nichols case in Atlannta where a reporter probably saved his own life by resisting Nichols: http://crime.about.com/*/2005/03/11/courthouse-killer-gives-cops-the-slip.htm

Note that this happened about 4-5 weeks prior to RFG disappearing. It was a major newstory and he'd have to be familiar with that detail.

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


No, not necessarily.

RFG was a public official for 20 years. He has been on television in the J-A-SC media market a reasonably amount of time during that period (though obviously not daily). Because of that, it is much more likely that he'd be recognized if he were in Altoona, Johnstown, or Clearfield. If he was meeting someone known in J-A-SC media market, and either party didn't want to be seen together, or RFG didn't care, but the other person did, that could lead to Lewisburg.

Your favorite suspect, Murtha, has a problem. It is a lot easier for him to meet someplace south east of Bellefonte, like Carlisle or Chambersburg. It's closer and arguably a bit better drive.

Basically, if you drive 25 miles from Bellefonte in any direction, you are within the J-A-SC media market. If you drive 50 miles to the west of Bellefonte, any point west, you are still in the J-A-SC media market.

P'gal was famous for the "what are odd" questions. Okay, what are the odds that the Mini would randomly be found outside within 50 miles of Bellefonte but outside of the J-A-SC media market? 25-35%, or 65%-75% against. That tells me that it might not be random. [/*]

JJ Murtha is NOT my suspect. I have one but it is not him. I do believe someone with that last name took over. That person I believe took over (M) in whatever RG was involved in. I also believe RG wanted to run with them and it made NO SENSE to them for him to want to. I will stick with some type of investagation with alot of crossing involved. Things with words such as a paid for wire, a paid phone calls, drugs, a set up, insurance that someone paid to much for, regrets of not waiting for the insurance not being paid for, murder. In my thoery RG knew someone was out to get him and IMO that's why he tossed it. I also believe he watched the person pick it up. Im not so sure it was in the parking lot but POSSIBLY a park. That part subject to change. So no Murtha is not my suspect just a person who took over. Which Murtha? Im unsure. Dunno yet. As far as Thursday I do believe RG attended that prision board meeting because he was to help THEM out and watch Mr? (hint: runner for congress). Words "you lied" come to mind and I would think that that was NOT part of the deal meaning RG wanted nothing to do with that part. Only a theory given to me in a strange way so I can't even claim it is personally mine. It holds no more weight than anyone elses.

[Cloudbuster]

JJ I forgot to add that I also believe RG entered into a investagation to HELP out the MW. That's my own thought there. I don't see any other reason so far that he would agree to get involved. I believe that's where she possibly is connected.

[J. J. in Phila]

I've looked at the PBM minutes, and there is NOTHING about an inmate, only one union grievance (which makes sense regarding the question that one of the members asked RFG and his answer), .

Cind got me the copy. It's a routine, if not boring, meeting. This was the first (with my redaction) item of business.

>1. -- The Prison Board Meeting was called to order by XXXXXXXXXXX at 8:05 AM. For an Executive Session to discuss a personnel issue. The session was adjourned at 8:10 AM. <

The had another executive session at the end to discuss the grievances raised by three workers.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Probably no. RFG could easily run out of the car and to people. The area is well populated, since most shooters are not experts. It also doesn't account for the movements of his car in the parking lot.
[/*]

JJ, if the person was a hardened criminal, in the mob, or even a person in law enforcement, and they had a gun, they knew how to shoot it.

If it was an irrate spouse or a big time drug dealer, they knew how to shoot a gun. BJL lived in hunting country. He would have known how to shoot a gun. Which he did. Sorry!

You are forgetting all the men/women who have been in the service all over the state who were trained in sharp shooting.
Since no one knows who the person/s were, I believe the chances are better that they know how to shoot, expertly.
JMO

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
I've looked at the PBM minutes, and there is NOTHING about an inmate, only one union grievance (which makes sense regarding the question that one of the members asked RFG and his answer), .

Cind got me the copy. It's a routine, if not boring, meeting. This was the first (with my redaction) item of business.

>1. -- The Prison Board Meeting was called to order by XXXXXXXXXXX at 8:05 AM. For an Executive Session to discuss a personnel issue. The session was adjourned at 8:10 AM. <

The had another executive session at the end to discuss the grievances raised by three workers. [/*]

JJ what Im talking about had NOTHING to do with the meeting itself. It would never be in meeting notes. If someone was to watch someone else the notes don't apply. Sorry for the mix up. It could also be a part of a setup. I have looked at both ways.:beer:

[Cloudbuster]

JJ this song reminds me of you and me trying to understand each other---just kidding:rose:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=K1ylBWOc-UI&feature=related

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


JJ, if the person was a hardened criminal, in the mob, or even a person in law enforcement, and they had a gun, they knew how to shoot it.

If it was an irrate spouse or a big time drug dealer, they knew how to shoot a gun. BJL lived in hunting country. He would have known how to shoot a gun. Which he did. Sorry!


There is a big difference between using a shotgun or rifle and shooting a pistol. The first two are hunting weapons while a pistol generally isn't.

The question is, what would be the smartest thing for a street savvy prosecutor to do if someone was trying to kidnap him from a public place? Run, as can be seen in the Nichols case in Atlanta. If someone puts a gun him and says, **Come with me,** don't go with him.

[J. J. in Phila]

Just to show the usefulness of running in a shooting situation, we have Jerry Curry, an attorney that was attached by a gunman outside of a Van Nuys, CA courthouse in 2003.

The video was, ironically, from Court TV, and might be a bit disturbing, but it does show how evasion works. This was national news, which is where I saw it.
http://www.wnbc.com/news/2600581/detail.html
I could not download it, but one of the stills shows just how close the gunman was.

Curry was wounded, but was released from the hospital in less than five days.

[J. J. in Phila]

Here is the You Tube video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFqs-NT5S6k&feature=related

Warning: It is somewhat graphic, but Mr. Curry survived the wounds.

You can also see the shooter apprehended.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks



AND if the gun wasn't pointed at him but instead at MW?
What would the street savvy prosecutor then do?
I continue to ask, was he alone?
JMO [/*]

They why wouldn't she go to the police, afterward, or considering the video, run herself, or scream loudly?

[puzzled]

Because she is in on it! She set him up! It does not take a rocket scientist to come to this conclusion. Why do you think she has not come forward??? She was a big part of the plan in my opinion. It is the only thing that makes sense! She is now afraid to come forward because she could be the next to disappear.....and she knows it.:D

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by puzzled
Because she is in on it! She set him up! It does not take a rocket scientist to come to this conclusion. Why do you think she has not come forward??? She was a big part of the plan in my opinion. It is the only thing that makes sense! She is now afraid to come forward because she could be the next to disappear.....and she knows it.:D [/*]

No actually, it doesn't. Witnesses put RFG in Lewisburg early in the afternoon and then between 4:30 and 5:30. If there is a MW and she's in on it, why doesn't RFG disappear after he arrives?

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by puzzled
Because she is in on it! She set him up! It does not take a rocket scientist to come to this conclusion. Why do you think she has not come forward??? She was a big part of the plan in my opinion. It is the only thing that makes sense! She is now afraid to come forward because she could be the next to disappear.....and she knows it.:D And there is such a woman...known to LE...who has apparently (to this day) not been properly vetted. The investigator(s) apparently let go of the so-called Lewisburg mystery woman...and every other early lead they had.

Have you ever heard a more ludicrous statement than when, after a brief get together, newbies (but actually not new to this case) Madeira and Weaver declared (Jan '06) that no stone had been left unturned...that it would take some sort of divine intervention to solve this case?

There have been several "unturned stones" pointed out, but for which those who are supposedly in charge failed to properly investigate. And no Good-Housekeeping-type seal of approval will ameliorate the absurdity of this failed investigation.

This case is still solvable. But it will take people with integrity and commitment. That leaves out a whole bunch of people, past and present...from Corbett on down. This investigation has sorely needed a whole bunch of new faces. And I intend to help see to it that that happens.

[J. J. in Phila]

LW, first you have to subtract the Tyrone MW from the Lewisburg Mystery Woman (LMW). PEF says it was her, but obviously wasn't (and couldn't) be the LMW.

Second, it has been reported, both in the press and JKA, that RFG had a friend in Harrisburg. JKA thought, from the description, that the "Harrisburg friend," was possibly, the LMW. (Others apparently thought the same, though I cannot confirm who. I will note that RFG being missing really "hit" his staff, by press reports, not on Saturday and Sunday, but Monday when he didn't show up for work.) Note: I make no declaration on the type of relationship, but will note that the press has referred to her as an "old girlfriend," and JKA as a "platonic" friend, who admired him.

Third, press reports indicate that she was contacted and indicated that she had never seen him. There is no indication that her whereabouts on 4/15-4/16 were ever checked.

Fourth, Lewisburg has a particular spacial relationship. Lewisburg is about midway between Harrisburg and Bellefonte, literally about 4 miles closer to Bellefonte than to Harrisburg (using 192). It is not the most direct route, but it is one of the closest larger areas outside the J-A-SC media market, perhaps the closest.

Now, I have both an old girlfriend (who I have not seen in almost five years). I also have platonic female friend that I last saw probably within the last three months. If my former SO or my platonic friend disappeared under mysterious circumstances, I would fully expect LE to check out my whereabouts at the time, just as a matter of course.

[Cloudbuster]

I just thought of something. The MW has the capabilities to render to TC or petion him for help but has not done so why?

I would believe she would want to but nope she won't budge either why?

Would it cost her a job?

Also even if you say she is not the MW (which I believe differently) she is a platonic friend right? A platonic friend in her position of power would certainly go to TC on RG"s behalf but no we see no move on her part to help. Why is that? What's the secret to that answer?

[Cloudbuster]

The MW or platonic friend may not want to help because of how it might look??? Maybe if she did push for the help things might look more than just platonic?

Then you have PF who did take the car back quicker than most would deem. Seems she was protecting herself- assets. Had she have drawn her own conclusions early on but without proof? Sorry but she knew the cell phone was in the car so how was RG going to get home or call her? What made her so sure that he would not need a cell phone or a car? What had her so sure he wasn't coming home? Why say "we will wait as long as it takes".

Was PF thinking something?

You have PF saying she was the one at the Tyrone antique shop but the descriptions are totally different. Plus they knew what PF looked like and that's because RG most likly did take PF to that store but this one time it was someone different--our MW.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
I just thought of something. The MW has the capabilities to render to TC or petion him for help but has not done so why?

I would believe she would want to but nope she won't budge either why?

Would it cost her a job?

Also even if you say she is not the MW (which I believe differently) she is a platonic friend right? A platonic friend in her position of power would certainly go to TC on RG"s behalf but no we see no move on her part to help. Why is that? What's the secret to that answer? [/*]

I think you are reading me wrong (which is a rarity for you).

There is a woman that RFG knew (and for more than a decade in 2005), that was identified as working in Harrisburg, though, IIRC as having moved there to take a job. The press referred to her as an "old girlfriend." I'll refer to her as "HW," for "Harrisburg woman."

JKA said this:

Ray's absence at that point was to my perception clearly being theorized to be volitional and likely in the company of an individual personally known to me to have had a long-standing friendship and admiration for him, and to be a smoker. It was not suggested to me then, nor have I ever heard it suggested at any time since, that the relationship had evolved to a romantic one. I did not know at that time why this particular individual had become an early focus, and assumed at the time that perhaps other longer-term DA staff who would also have been aware of the friendship had mentioned it. This individual's description would be generally consistent with that offered of the ‘mystery woman’ in media during the past year. I recall nothing said that would have suggested that Ray and this individual had been seen together, during that weekend or at any other time.


Now, I do NOT make a characterization of the relationship, beyond saying RFG and HW knew each other. She may have been romantically involved with him, or not. I wasn't hiding under anyone's bed, so I don't know.

If JKA is correct, some people initially thought RFG was with her; I do think she is correct that this was what some people thought. There is also a report that HW looked, generally, like the LMW.

Now, to me, if RFG is reported to be seen with someone who generally resembles an old friend, HW, HW smokes and cigarette ashes are found in the Mini, that it would be reasonable to check on the whereabouts of HW on 4/15-4/16. So far as has been reported, HW was called, said she hadn't seen him, and that angle was dropped.

In my opinion, anyone who had a "long-standing friendship" or was an "old girlfriend," of RFG's, was in reasonably close proximity to Lewisburg (about 1-1.5 hour drive), in general should be checked out. When that person bears at resemblance to someone seen with RFG, to the point that people initially are speculating about RFG being in her company, her whereabouts really should be checked out.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks


The first avenue LE took after finding his car, that we are aware of, was to go door to door in that area looking for a mystery woman, anyone who might know her, or have seen her. She is the only person we have heard that LE was looking for that first weekend. Obviously they got the lead/information from 'someone'.

LE immediately contacted two former girlfriends to see if RG was with either of them. We have heard nothing of LE contacting guys in the neighborhood or anywhere for that matter, only women, backing up the idea MW is 'for real'.
[quote]

No, FIRST you had the wintesses that saw RFG around the car and the one (or two) that said he was with another woman.

This is what LE had:

1. The Mini in Lewisburg.

2. Witnesses putting him in Lewisburg.

And you want them to start looking 45 miles away from Lewisburg? :rolleyes:

[quote]
LE had a description of the MW, which didn't come out until a full year later in spite of there obviously being a full description of her on that first weekend. Otherwise it would have been impossible for them to conduct a door to door search looking for 'a' woman of no description.


What "full description?" A general one, but I'm far from sure that anyone ever saw her face.


The MW description coincidentally matched a description given to LE by the Tyrone antique shop owners regarding an earlier sighting in their shop.



And PEF's, who said she was there.


PF's refusal to leave the car in the parking lot for him is a story in itself. Either she knew he wouldn't be returning or she believed he was with someone else, and didn't care if he ever got back home. NO reason otherwise not to leave the car there. She had her own car therefore no desperate need for transportation on her part.


JKA said that one theory was that RFG was with someone. Somebody thought that might have been the case.


IF the MW is someone whose voice is heard all across PA, there are those who wouldn't want this to be heard across PA. Could look bad for business........



Why isn't LMW dead then, or also missing without explanation?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster

You have PF saying she was the one at the Tyrone antique shop but the descriptions are totally different. Plus they knew what PF looked like and that's because RG most likly did take PF to that store but this one time it was someone different--our MW. [/*]

Ah, would you care to back up that statement (from someone that has seen a photo online of the HW)? :)

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
And there is such a woman...known to LE...who has apparently (to this day) not been properly vetted. The investigator(s) apparently let go of the so-called Lewisburg mystery woman...and every other early lead they had.

Have you ever heard a more ludicrous statement than when, after a brief get together, newbies (but actually not new to this case) Madeira and Weaver declared (Jan '06) that no stone had been left unturned...that it would take some sort of divine intervention to solve this case?

There have been several "unturned stones" pointed out, but for which those who are supposedly in charge failed to properly investigate. And no Good-Housekeeping-type seal of approval will ameliorate the absurdity of this failed investigation.

This case is still solvable. But it will take people with integrity and commitment. That leaves out a whole bunch of people, past and present...from Corbett on down. This investigation has sorely needed a whole bunch of new faces. And I intend to help see to it that that happens. [/*]

I just got back from vacation & am catching up on the board.

I hope you *do* help turn those stones...into dust!

On another note, after Bosak wrote his piece 7/18 (& provided a link to my googlepages) someone in Centre County Government spent about 15 minutes reading there this week. Maybe they'll learn a thing or two about the case...lol

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by logicworks






The first avenue LE took after finding his car, that we are aware of, was to go door to door in that area looking for a mystery woman, anyone who might know her, or have seen her. She is the only person we have heard that LE was looking for that first weekend. Obviously they got the lead/information from 'someone'.

[/*]


And then there was the one woman in the door-to-door investigation who tells them she doesn't want to get involved.

Excuse me, but why would an innocent woman, who might have seen something happening to a man, any man, that was being assaulted in a park, parking lot, or street, not have called LE to report it. Or to correct the error by helping to find the missing man.

Was she seen by the perp's and threatened, or did she know the person/s?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981



And then there was the one woman in the door-to-door investigation who tells them she doesn't want to get involved.


Some people see something and say, **I don't want to get involved.** That's human nature, unfortunately. I'm not defending it, but it is common. :(

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Ah, would you care to back up that statement (from someone that has seen a photo online of the HW)? :) [/*]

Okay JJ the challenge is on lol.
HW photo: http://econ.clarion.edu/this/THISJonLongwill.jpg

Now PF photo's:http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2005/08/08-25-05cm/08-25-05dnews-05*2.jpg
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://politigal.googlepages.com/key2.bmp/key2-custom%3Bsize:78,77.jpg&imgrefurl=http://politigal.googlepages.com/&h=77&w=78&sz=2&hl=en&start=13&tbnid=7ZMIIGFwONK9EM:&tbnh=72&tbnw=73&prev=/images%3Fq%3DGricar%2BFornicola%2BMadeira%26gbv%3D 2%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26ie%3DUTF-8

Now you mean to tell me the Tyrone guy couldn't tell them apart? Look at height and eyebrows?

[Cloudbuster]

JJ why when AG Fischer was in did HW do more work? Look now that TC is in and there is alot more from Hardy Har Har than HW. When it came up about RG recently we see K Har Har instead of a platonic friend HW. Why JJ?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster


Okay JJ the challenge is on lol.
HW photo: http://econ.clarion.edu/this/THISJonLongwill.jpg

Now PF photo's:http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2005/08/08-25-05cm/08-25-05dnews-05*2.jpg
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://politigal.googlepages.com/key2.bmp/key2-custom%3Bsize:78,77.jpg&imgrefurl=http://politigal.googlepages.com/&h=77&w=78&sz=2&hl=en&start=13&tbnid=7ZMIIGFwONK9EM:&tbnh=72&tbnw=73&prev=/images%3Fq%3DGricar%2BFornicola%2BMadeira%26gbv%3D 2%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26ie%3DUTF-8

Now you mean to tell me the Tyrone guy couldn't tell them apart? Look at height and eyebrows? [/*]

The person in the photo has the same eye color, hair color and general build as PEF. I don't know her height, though I can estimate PEF's at about 5' 6". A set of heels could change that.

Note as well that the person in photo, who may or may not be the HW, was exceptionally recognizable in the J-A-SC media market, which includes Tyrone.

First, I have to go with the woman seen in Tyrone as being PEF. Second, if it wasn't, it would be very unlikely that it would be the woman in the photo, because the sighting occurred in Tyrone. You also have to note that Tyrone is substantially further from Harrisburg, a bit over two hours, one way.

As to why the woman in the photo is not doing the same amount of work, I don't know. It is clear that she was not someone brought in by TC. I'm not sure that she still is with the office.

Now, that just deals with the Tyrone sighting, which I would go with being PEF. If it wasn't, I'd say it was very unlikely that it was the woman in the photo.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
JJ why when AG Fischer was in did HW do more work? Look now that TC is in and there is alot more from Hardy Har Har than HW. When it came up about RG recently we see K Har Har instead of a platonic friend HW. Why JJ? [/*]

I should note that the woman in the photograph had, under both Fisher and TC a very specific area, and was not dealing beyond those things. I'm also not sure if she still works there, but if she was, the RFG case would be out of her department.

[Cloudbuster]

Okay for now we will leave Tyrone sighting as PF. I still think it's possible it was'nt her but for now I have to wonder why we don't see much from her? A side note she does appear to have a mouthful of teeth unlike PF, at which I still think PF was more attractive. I know that's not important but oh while lol.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
Okay for now we will leave Tyrone sighting as PF. I still think it's possible it was'nt her but for now I have to wonder why we don't see much from her? A side note she does appear to have a mouthful of teeth unlike PF, at which I still think PF was more attractive. I know that's not important but oh while lol. [/*]

Tyrone seems to be a red herring. The LMW might not be. I'm well aware that this might be a dead end (no pun intended).

I would note that the HW, whomever she is, falls well into my list of the "Inner Circle." So far as I know, those in the Inner Circle have not been thoroughly checked. :(

[Cloudbuster]

I wonder why the HW seems like she is doing nothing currently? I will keep searching but seems like when TC came in she slowly disappeared herself? I also wonder if she might have been the anomonus donor of $5,000? That I know is a long shot but Im curious. JJ thsy should have checked it out I agree 100 percent!:rose:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
I wonder why the HW seems like she is doing nothing currently? I will keep searching but seems like when TC came in she slowly disappeared herself? I also wonder if she might have been the anomonus donor of $5,000? That I know is a long shot but Im curious. JJ thsy should have checked it out I agree 100 percent!:rose: [/*]

I don't know who the donor was.

The woman in the photo, who may or may not be the HW, may not (I'm not sure) be with the AG's office at the present time, though she was, clearly, before TC was in office and at least until the mid-Summer of 2006.

The HW, along with those that I've listed as being in the "Inner Circle," should be checked out, to the point of determining their whereabouts. I also would be considering a "helper" in a walkaway from the "Inner Circle" more so than a murderer.

Because TC had been in office less than 90 days at the time RFG disappeared, I would find it very unlikely that this would involved some kind of "official" activity on his part.

[Cloudbuster]

JJ I was sorta looking in one of my books on a domestic murder including relationship murders. It's interesting to note that usually the motive is almost exclusivly anger/revenge, profit, or combination of the two. That of course came out of Brent Turvey's criminal Profiling book. Steve Sloane thought that RG should have had way more in his account than reported. It something to consider. So if it was murder from a MW being involved those would be the uttmost motives. It's just a thought.

[Cloudbuster]

JJ the she is 188 miles away from Lewisburg since 2007. Now lives in a $420,000 home. Crap. CB needs to figure out the how to do it. Hmmm something must be wrong with me.:confused:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks



Once again, in order to make the theory work, this time to possibly include a 'helper' in a higher government office, you have to reduce the character of those involved, changing them from who and what they are to make it happen. We are talking responsible, dedicated workers, in government positions.



First, I would not classify the person in the photo as a "higher government official." While she, no doubt, performed her job well and was necessary, she had less administrative responsibility that, oh, a police chief in a small town (Wiley), or a president of a college (Carsey).

Second, the HW was described, by JKA, as having a "a long-standing friendship and admiration" for RFG. Would someone with "a long-standing friendship and admiration" be willing to help RFG disappear, if he asked. Of course, that would be very possible. Yet some people assumed that the relationship was something more than "friendship and admiration." Would someone with feelings greater than friendship be willing to help RFG disappear? Yes, clearly. A stranger wouldn't care and would not be trustworthy.


That doesn't mean they may not have been personal friends, but irregardless of what level their friendship may have been at, no way, no how, do I personally believe either would willingly do anything that would leave the people of PA down, nor do I believe either one would encourage sabotaging future income; in RG's case, his retirement monies. Both are likely far too frugal to do something so irresponsible.


You forget, that, if RFG walked away, he chose to do so, after preparing his finances. We also have no real idea what, if any, money he could access.

I would like you to explain, what, if any, money the HW would be "sabotaging." As has been pointed out before, voluntarily leaving is not a criminal act. I would not even call helping a friend committing a perfectly legal act, and doing it without fanfare, to be dishonorable. If walking away were a criminal act, that would be different, but it isn't a criminal act.


Even if the friendship was very 'close', the only people I can think of who would be have a great interest in knowing it would be
1) someone who wanted to use the information to blackmail him
2) someone who wanted to catch him in the act, being deceitful
3) someone who wanted to break his credibility in the local eyes
Who else would have any interest IF anything was going on?
One person could fit all three.


1. Why blackmail? This isn't criminal or unethical.

2. No, just the opposite. Someone who would not want RFG to be seen as having walked away would be willing to sit on that information.

3. Credibility? If he did walk away, it makes no difference because he's not there to be credible or incredible.

You forgot the last two on the list however: Friendship and loyalty.

Someone who is a friend of RFG may be willing help him with a project. Someone that is loyal to RFG may be willing to respect his wishes and keep a secret.

As the Daily Item noted in its editorial, there is some "tunnel vision" for those who insist on murder (I would argue for those who insist on any option, without evidence). We have no evidence of murder; that, of course, does not eliminate murder, by a long shot.

Now, did RFG walkaway? I don't have sufficient evidence to say yes, or even if it is likely. Was he murdered? I don't have sufficient evidence to say yes, or even if it is likely. Could the HW have helped him walk away? I don't have sufficient evidence to say yes, or even if it is likely.

Should the whereabouts of the HW be checked out. Yes, absolutely.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
I don't know who the donor was. Bob Buehner posted (5/15/06) that he sent a substantial amount of personal money to the reward fund (post 133.29):
http://pod01.prospero.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=21&nav=messages&webtag=kr-centretm&tid=133

The HW, along with those that I've listed as being in the "Inner Circle," should be checked out, to the point of determining their whereabouts. I also would be considering a "helper" in a walkaway from the "Inner Circle" more so than a murderer.

Because TC had been in office less than 90 days at the time RFG disappeared, I would find it very unlikely that this would involved some kind of "official" activity on his part. The so-called HW is intriguing, if only because of the several seeming coincidences. There are several angles which could present themselves, and LE should thoroughly check her (and others) out.

Cloudbuster, J. J., et al: Since I started this thread, I feel obligated to suggest that some of this discussion should be confined to pms.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks


First, I never said she was a 'official' higher than RG. I said she worked in the State office, which is higher in power than a county office.
Would her boss want a member of his staff brought into the limelight in any way, as being involved in the disappearance of a county DA?
Did the 'boss' have the means to suppress it?
And was the boss in a position that would enable him to suppress it at all levels in the State?


I doubt if "limelight" is possibly the most ridiculous thing to say regarding the person in the photo. :rooleyes: I frankly worked for an office with a much higher budget that the Centre County DA's office, but I certainly didn't control the bulk of those assets.

I doubt if doing some non-job related, perfectly legal act for an old friend would be considered a negative, hypothetically.


Second, if a planned disappearance, there was no need whatsoever to involve any friend in the scheme of things. I am certain the seasoned DA, RG would have been perfectly capable of carrying out such a plan without any assistance. I see no evidence to indicate that he was making any such plans, nor do I see any evidence that proves he carried out such a plan.


He would be perfectly capable of enlisting the help of a friend. It is not a question of if RFG needed to use a certain method to get out of Lewisburg. It is a question of looking what methods RFG could have used if he left Lewisburg voluntarily. I've come up with two methods, getting a car or having a friend drive him out (which includes but is not limited to the HW).

Again, "tunnel vision," on your part. You don't think or want it to happen, so you don't want LE to look at it. Most of the posters here have been critical of DZ for not looking at things, because he believed they couldn't happen, not because he had evidence that they didn't happen. You are doing the same thing.


Believing he secretly confided in one woman, while leaving all other friends and family behind for ever, simply doesn't 'hold water' when one takes RG's character into consideration.
And IF the friendship between the two was blossoming into more, they had the means to do so without 'staging a disappearance'. There was no need to make it a national issue of concern, and both of them would definitely know that.
If you need to change the character of either RG or the friend to fit the theory, then IMO, the theory is likely 99% incorrect, as I stated before.


Yet we have people who know him very well, and respect him (it seems), who think he did, or at least could have.

Now, you are talking about RFG's "character," which I doubt that you know, and the "character" of the HW, and we don't know precisely who that is, but I doubt if you would know he.

You've continuously used the word "character."

IF RFG left, he:

1. Did not walk out on any debt; he didn't even leave a lease pending.

2. He did not walk out on a spouse.

3. He left no uncared for minors behind.

4. He provide for those family members, adults, that he left behind.

The "character" issue seems to be that LW doesn't like that course of action. Guess what, RFG isn't answerable to LW, or J. J., S1, CB, SJ, GS, D2D, or anyone else about he would choose to lead his life. The only question is if he made that choice.



As far as sabotaging, why would any true friend encourage a friend to just walk away from elected responsibility, from income, from retirement benefits, from everything including family, believing responsibility to those served, money, family, friends are unimportant issues?


First, his elected responsibility was ending at the time he disappeared. Second, who claims that it was "encouraged" by a friend? There is a very big difference between respecting a friend's choice, and being loyal enough to support that friend's choice and agreeing or encouraging that choice. I've done that many times, when I question the judgment of a friend but still support their actions.

Now, I find it interesting that I say that the HW, along with other close friends, should be checked out, thoroughly, and you seem to be arguing against that.

[Politigal]

I've always wondered just how close Patty and Madeira became after he took over....and how that might have affected the investigation.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks



Was the investigation into the disappearance of our local DA shut down out of sheer 'avoidance' of a possible 'scene' in order to keep the spotlight out of a higher office? Can something such as sheer preservation of image hold the potential for causing a 'bungled' investigation? I would think depending upon how much power was wielded and whether it affected every level, it could cause 'bungled'.


I have yet to hear anyone, other than you ,saying that the reason was "to keep the spotlight out of a higher office." From what we've been led to believe, it wasn't. Mr. Walker, who doesn't hold any office, wasn't questioned. He's someone on my "Inner Circle" list. As far as we know, the second Mrs. Gricar wasn't checked; I think it is very unlikely that she would be a helper or a murderer, but I think her whereabouts should be determined. As far as we know, it wasn't limited to the HW; the press reports that I've read say that both the nurse and the HW were contacted, but were not asked to verify where they were.


I have never ONCE said there should be no questioning, nor would I ever say such a thing. I believe a FULL investigation would include such an occurrence and a FULL investigation is what I want to see happen.


Yet you have never, even now, that we should be looking at the whereabouts of those people closest to RFG. You've consistently claimed that the "character of the man," somehow precludes walkaway, without having ever spoken to RFG.


In so far as my use of 'character', the most important rule for any profiler is to stick to the rules, JJ. They don't change someones character to 'something else'. Character is based on fact, not someone's fantasy with no proof whatsoever to back it up with.


"Character" is opinion, especially when done remotely. At best, when done by a trained expert, might be based on the opinions and observations of others. We know what some of those opinions and observations were, and that very clearly does not exclude walkaway.


In so far as my own judgement of character, in this case I base my opinions, which is all they are, solely on how conscientious, hard working, and dedicated the public servant has been. The 'history' speaks for itself.


Yes, history does. An interest in walkaway cases, even very old ones. His statements in March 2005 indicating that he wouldn't "be here" in October and his stumbling about an answer about the November Election. The fact that, on 4/15/05, he didn't own a car, a house, or that his assets were extremely liquid and easily accessible by his next of kin. That the part of the history you like top ignore.

None of that is proof, anymore than your claims of character (though perhaps less based on opinion and more on observation). It is enough, however, to say that the possibly should be checked.


In so far as true friends, we are miles apart on that issue, so believe who you will.......to each his own.
JMO [/*]

A friend, a good one, would be loyal and trusted. I really don't understand why you wouldn't see that.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Bob Buehner posted (5/15/06) that he sent a substantial amount of personal money to the reward fund (post 133.29):
http://pod01.prospero.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=21&nav=messages&webtag=kr-centretm&tid=133

The so-called HW is intriguing, if only because of the several seeming coincidences. There are several angles which could present themselves, and LE should thoroughly check her (and others) out.

Cloudbuster, J. J., et al: Since I started this thread, I feel obligated to suggest that some of this discussion should be confined to pms. [/*]

I would perfer PMs, and none of you are blocked. Just out of fairness, CB's conclusion were her own.

[Cloudbuster]

I will respect S1 about the pm's. As far as conclusions, how do you expect me to feel about all this? They didn't check this all out so I thought maybe a search thru the internet might be helpful. If they would tell us some things maybe conclusions wouldn't be so pearlant. I feel if they don't want to check this out it feels like a citizen(s) should at least try for this honorable DA. I blame them for the conclusions which are subject to change. BB is trying so I feel we are backing him in this quest. My pm box is open to all. :read: including my email address if it is wanted, you can have it upon asking in a pm. i have no reason to hide it. I have spoken to some of you on here by phone lol.

[J. J. in Phila]

My concern is that the HW has never been named publicly in this context.

I think you or your ghost knew about it before I did. :biggrin:

[Cloudbuster]

JJ my dad is no longer with me and he taught me to fight for what is right and to not be afraid or cry. I wonder what he would say to me in case lol. Here is a OLD song by the rolling stones that reminds me of me lol
Fool to Cry http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qaj2YOZ7lY

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Some people see something and say, **I don't want to get involved.** That's human nature, unfortunately. I'm not defending it, but it is common. :( [/*]

I don't understand it myself. I am one of those who goes out to someone who has parked in front of your home and proceeds to beat his girlfriend up and break it up. Get the girl away from him.

I have gone out in the dark of night and stopped boys from stealing items from the neighbors porches and torching the local auto repair shop.

I have done a lot more, but I have no time for those who turn their back on someone being assaulted, molested or attacked. Sure doesn't say much for the local businesses in that area. I will be sure to avoid her shop.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


The person in the photo has the same eye color, hair color and general build as PEF. I don't know her height, though I can estimate PEF's at about 5' 6". A set of heels could change that.

Note as well that the person in photo, who may or may not be the HW, was exceptionally recognizable in the J-A-SC media market, which includes Tyrone.

First, I have to go with the woman seen in Tyrone as being PEF. Second, if it wasn't, it would be very unlikely that it would be the woman in the photo, because the sighting occurred in Tyrone. You also have to note that Tyrone is substantially further from Harrisburg, a bit over two hours, one way.

As to why the woman in the photo is not doing the same amount of work, I don't know. It is clear that she was not someone brought in by TC. I'm not sure that she still is with the office.

Now, that just deals with the Tyrone sighting, which I would go with being PEF. If it wasn't, I'd say it was very unlikely that it was the woman in the photo. [/*]

I disagree with the 2 photo's looking like the same girl. The HW has red in her hair. PF does not. Total different textures. Total different styles and total different heights. PF is very petite and pretty.

I thought they had a receipt or something that showed RG and PF were at the Tyrone shop the date they are talking about?

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by logicworks



Based on what LE immediately proceeded to follow through on, a house to house search inquiring about a MW, obviously Mr. Walker and most likely, EG, did not fit the description. I have no idea to what extent, if any, either of them were questioned. IIRC, TG mentioned something about resistance from the second wife. Obviously someone thought RG was with a woman or no need for the search. What we don't know is who led them to believe that was the case.....was it based on witness or re-action?

[/*]

Check out some of the first reports on what DZ was saying. The attorney, JB, made some comments also.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks



Based on what LE immediately proceeded to follow through on, a house to house search inquiring about a MW, obviously Mr. Walker and most likely, EG, did not fit the description. I have no idea to what extent, if any, either of them were questioned. IIRC, TG mentioned something about resistance from the second wife. Obviously someone thought RG was with a woman or no need for the search. What we don't know is who led them to believe that was the case.....was it based on witness or re-action?



It was reported that HW and the nurse were contacted, and each denied seen RFG. That seems to be the extent of the investigation of them. JKA thought it might have deen "senior" members of the staff.



Gee........I had NO idea I HAD to make a specific statement about who should be questioned, considering it is a foregone conclusion that ALL will be questioned in the event of a FULL investigation. You can repeatedly state 'I think so and so should be questioned' but exactly who is it that you are directing your request to?


I want a multi-jurisdictional task force/ investigative team comprised of experts headed by a committee that the investigative team will answer to, to FULLY investigate. I seriously doubt that any committee or investigative team needs me to tell them who they should question, considering they are the professionals. They would hardly need any assistance or suggestions from me.



I sincerely hope that someone will be reading this. Not a hypothetical committee or investigating team, but the people looking at it now.


You and I obviously have a completely different definitions of 'character'. You believe it is the opinion others have from observing you, while I believe it is what you are when NO one else is looking. It is not a product of people's 'word'. It is about actions, and the after 'word'. I continue to believe RG's character was such that he would never walk away from his elected position, when no one was looking.


If you claim that "character" is totally internal, then you cannot possibly know what it is. That is the flaw in your argument. In reality, no one can tell any of us what was going through RFG's mind on 4/15 (or earlier or later).


You continually come back to the statement in March as if RG's vacation time had no bearing on the discussion at hand. IF you were talking about ANY month other than his vacation time, you might have a point. As it stands, I don't 'get' your point with October, vacation time, adding zero, nada, zilch to the runaway theory.


He didn't say, "Oh, I'll be on vacation." RFG just seemed not to be paying attention. It struck Spotts as odd in that context.


In so far as hedging on exactly what to say to the media regarding endorcement, the fact that he fumbled around is indicative of a conscious effort on his part, to exercise caution regarding exactly what he wanted 'out there' in the news.


Except, he didn't hedge. Easily, RFG could have said, "Centre County will be well served by either," "I'll wait to see who wins both primaries," or "Let's see who the nominees are first." He just stumbled.

Neither of those things, in themselves or together say RFG walked away, but they say that it is very possible he wasn't thinking about anything beyond the near future.


As far as the assets, considering I do not know the details as to exactly how they played out, I personally don't know whose idea any of the decisions were, but add that I find it doubtful the car or the house were strictly and completely, 100% RG's doing.


He didn't buy a house and obviously could have declined to live where he did. The car was one he drove to the point that TG said, if it wasn't for the license plate, you wouldn't know it was her's. Central Pennsylvania, certainly enough money to buy a car. a guy who liked to drive. Yes, that is unusual.


As far as the bank account with LG, I have seen others take the same precautionary measures after being divorced and hit hard monetarily. I view it as precaution rather than a pre-cursor for disappearance as you seem to.


Yes, if you are married; RFG wasn't at the time.


Again, our definitions of what a true friend is and isn't are worlds apart........and again, to each his own.
JMO [/*]

And again, IMO, a good friend is someone who is loyal and trustworthy. Not someone who would necessarily break the law or cover up a crime, but one who might be willing to keep some secrets and to respect his own friend's wishes.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


I disagree with the 2 photo's looking like the same girl. The HW has red in her hair. PF does not. Total different textures. Total different styles and total different heights. PF is very petite and pretty.


I will point out that the photo was taken in 1999, so there could be some changes.

I lightened both photographs and the hair isn't red, but dark brown. PEF's in about a shade darker. No much.

Body shape, both look short though PEF looks a bit heavier, but they have the same build. Both are dark for Caucasians. Same eye color. Same long necks and pointy chins. I'm not sure if anyone ever saw the Lewisburg MW's face.

Keep something else in mind. Marshall never saw the photo. He only heard the description. PEF fits that description, as does the woman in the photo.


I thought they had a receipt or something that showed RG and PF were at the Tyrone shop the date they are talking about? [/*]

There may have been some verification as well.

[Cloudbuster]

In the CDT long ago someone posted that they saw the MW and was told there was no scetch artists available. I can't find the post any longer but yes it was on there. Under Erin and Petes questions and answer part I believe.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
In the CDT long ago someone posted that they saw the MW and was told there was no scetch artists available. I can't find the post any longer but yes it was on there. Under Erin and Petes questions and answer part I believe. [/*]

One article, not the Q and A, said that the witness couldn't provide enough information. I'm not certain if the witness ever saw the face.

[sherrijean981]

I found this page as searching for info in the news from 2005 in Lewisburg. Notice at the bottom where the crime rates are listed that 2005 has no records listed. Wonder why that is? Should have been a big year for crimes with the drug busts and disappearance of the Centre County DA. What is DA Johnson hiding in Union County?

http://www.idcide.com/citydata/pa/lewisburg.htm

http://www.city-data.com/city/Lewisburg-Pennsylvania.html

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981
I found this page as searching for info in the news from 2005 in Lewisburg. Notice at the bottom where the crime rates are listed that 2005 has no records listed. Wonder why that is? Should have been a big year for crimes with the drug busts and disappearance of the Centre County DA. What is DA Johnson hiding in Union County?

http://www.idcide.com/citydata/pa/lewisburg.htm

http://www.city-data.com/city/Lewisburg-Pennsylvania.html [/*]

Neither chart shows drug crimes (or alcohol crimes, for that matter).

And, more that 3.25 years later, we still can't say that RFG's disappearance was a crime.

[Serendipitous1]

After 39 years, an unsolved murder at Penn State fascinates
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20080730_After_39_years_an_unsolved_murder_at_Penn _State_fascinates.html

In the 1980s, a writer named Pamela Kraske delved into the case with help from then-Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar. She initially thought the mystery could be a true-crime book, but ended up using the findings as a basis for a science-fiction tale involving time travel.

[J. J. in Phila]

They did note the link between 20/20 Vision and the Gricar investigation.

Well, my attempt at linking didn't work any better. :)

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
After 39 years, an unsolved murder at Penn State fascinates
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20080730_After_39_years_an_unsolved_murder_at_Penn _State_fascinates.html

In the 1980s, a writer named Pamela Kraske delved into the case with help from then-Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar. She initially thought the mystery could be a true-crime book, but ended up using the findings as a basis for a science-fiction tale involving time travel. [/*]

It was an interesting book.

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm going to divide this post into two parts

Originally posted by sherrijean981


It was an interesting book. [/*]

Part I (A Review)

I though the book was quite good, as science fiction. Someone complimented it years later on how well she handled time paradoxes. It was very difficult to handle shifting from one point in time to another, even without changing both past and future history and keep it clear. Kraske did it well.

As an older male, I though her characterization of Max Caine was excellent.

Kraske caught the flavor of State College in the 80's, especially pre hip hop, very well. I could visualize real places from her fictionalized descriptions.

That's the review portion of this post.

Part II

I question the relevancy of the book to the RFG disappearance.

There are these similarities. Max Caine was close to retirement , as was RFG. Caine drove a "unique" car, as did RFG. Ashes were a key plot part of the book; cigarette ash was a piece of evidence in the RFG case. The action in the book took place on April 15th of different years; RFG disappeared on 4/15/05. RFG read the book in the early 90's and the fictionalized setting is State College, which RFG lived in and with which he was extremely familiar.

Caine drove a "classic" car, while RFG drove a late model Mini, of a different color. Not that similar. "Close to retirement," was a common plot point especially at that time. The ashes in the supposed cremated remains of someone and were not associated with a vehicle. There is no real analog of Lewisburg or Route 192 in the book (I've asked).

If it was connected, what does it mean? I considered two possibilities:

1. RFG wanted to send a message that he was faking his death.

OK, who was sending the message to? Kraske? He hadn't spoken to her for years? PEF? It is probably that she didn't know about the book; It was published more than a decade prior to their relationship. Barbara Gray? Why should she be able to pick up on oblique references to a novel RFG read 10-15 years before. Same with LG or any of his nephews. It doesn't exactly jump out.

Further, there are clearly clues that he could have left behind, i.e. a CD of Gustav Mahler or a silver coin, both clear references to the book.

2. A killer, either to "make it look like Ray faked his own death," or as part of a way to taunt LE.

OK, exceedingly few people know that RFG had any connection to Kraske, much less read the book. So far as we know, only one PSP trooper knew that he read it. A killer not close to RFG in the early 90's couldn't have known. It wasn't until 2008 that a connection was made. Why would a killer that knew about the connection not see that came out much earlier.

My opinion, it probably isn't related (but a good read anyhow).

[Serendipitous1]

Since I have not seen it mentioned here yet, does anyone else find the Bedford County DA's present predicament interesting? I did...with a capital "P'.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Since I have not seen it mentioned here yet, does anyone else find the Bedford County DA's present predicament interesting? I did...with a capital "P'. [/*]

http://www.wjactv.com/news/17042624/detail.html

Mr. Higgins committed no criminal act, did not abuse his position, and did not lie about it. This is between him and Mrs. Higgins.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by logicworks
A Republican DA, caught with his pants down? Surely, you jest.....
must be a closet Democrat, just ask TC who has yet to make a move toward investigating any Republicans in Bonusgate. Guess we could either call this part of the Bonus plan or call it a new name similar to Bonusgate.

What a capital 'P'athetic response..........no rules for elected officials, I guess? I just KNEW there was something wrong with the system......

'Under the sexual misconduct portion, it states that only county employees who violate the code of conduct will be subject to disciplinary action, including being fired. According to commissioners, the guidelines don't pertain to elected officials like Higgins.

Higgins would have to do something illegal, and Attorney General Tom Corbett, said there is nothing criminal about this situation.'

Remind me to send in a petition for changing this law too........not quite certain how to word it though....LOL.
JMO No "schtuping" by elected officials on the public dime, or on or in public property...unless you are state level or above of course.

My condolences to Mrs. H and Mr. ?. Should be a funky week in Bedford. But at least no one disappeared...thank God.

And, before anyone asks...no, I am not advocating a particular theory pertaining to RG. But it is something to ponder.

[J. J. in Phila]

Not illegal, and I'll give a public official some leeway in using his private office. I'm happy that Higgins didn't lie about it, unlike someone else I could mention.

I'm happy to let Mrs. Higgins handle it. I hope her first name isn't Lorena. :)

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks


HIS private office? That office belongs to the taxpayers. You forget who the boss is? The DA was granted the right to use that office to perform the duties of the job he was voted in to do, NOT to use it in lieu of a motel room, where he fears he might be recognized. Instead make it look like your working late and who would ever suspect??



He was granted the office to be his private office, and he used it as such. Whether it ultimately owned by the county, the county has granted by the county to him as a private office.

[Cinderella]

Logic, well stated. J. J. get a life.

:punch:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella
Logic, well stated. J. J. get a life.

:punch: [/*]

I really don't need any more of of one, nor does Mr. Higgins, apparantly.

It's his call on what happens in his private office, so long as it isn't criminal, is his own business.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Since I have not seen it mentioned here yet, does anyone else find the Bedford County DA's present predicament interesting? I did...with a capital "P'. [/*]

Now you know why that DA didn't show up for DA Madiera's cry for help. Too busy in his own office! :D

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by logicworks



A Republican DA, caught with his pants down? Surely, you jest.....
must be a closet Democrat, just ask TC who has yet to make a move toward investigating any Republicans in Bonusgate. Guess we could either call this part of the Bonus plan or call it a new name similar to Bonusgate.

What a capital 'P'athetic response..........no rules for elected officials, I guess? I just KNEW there was something wrong with the system......

'Under the sexual misconduct portion, it states that only county employees who violate the code of conduct will be subject to disciplinary action, including being fired. According to commissioners, the guidelines don't pertain to elected officials like Higgins.

Higgins would have to do something illegal, and Attorney General Tom Corbett, said there is nothing criminal about this situation.'

Remind me to send in a petition for changing this law too........not quite certain how to word it though....LOL.
JMO [/*]

Wonder when the adultry laws were changed?

Conduct unbecoming of an officer of the court should be punished. Using county property for improper trysts?

Someone can surely come up with something. But wait until election for DA in that county. I listened to tv news with local citizens and they were all upset with the situation.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1

My condolences to Mrs. H and Mr. ?. Should be a funky week in Bedford. But at least no one disappeared...thank God.

[/*]

YET! The story hasn't ended yet. You don't know how the husband or wife might react to this scandal.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by logicworks


HIS private office? That office belongs to the taxpayers. You forget who the boss is? The DA was granted the right to use that office to perform the duties of the job he was voted in to do, NOT to use it in lieu of a motel room, where he fears he might be recognized. Instead make it look like your working late and who would ever suspect??

Considering that office belongs to the 'people', and as you say, it's not illegal to boink in a public office, that you call his private (shouldn't that now be called his privateS) office, does that then give all other county taxpayers feeling frisky away from home the right to go use his office........NO need for sneaking around motel rooms......just do it in your courthouse. After all, TC says it's not illegal.
PLEEEEEEEEEEZE................... Mrs. Higgin's personal issue with her husband has NOTHING to do with the county government issue regarding this.
TOSS him out of office.
JMO [/*]

LW I love your choice of words! :)

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


Wonder when the adultry laws were changed?

Conduct unbecoming of an officer of the court should be punished. Using county property for improper trysts?

Someone can surely come up with something. But wait until election for DA in that county. I listened to tv news with local citizens and they were all upset with the situation. [/*]

Probably in the 1970-80's for adultery. It isn't "conduct unbecoming," though I do see the humor in the term, because it doesn't relate to any official conduct.

It's political, but not criminal. I am happy that Higgins was honest enough to admit it straight out.

[sherrijean981]

Here is an FBI link to an email I received:

http://www.fbi.gov/page2/august08/vicap_080408.html

Interesting articles about the updates on criminal activity, cold cases, missing persons.

[Cloudbuster]

This article just came out about Betsy A--girl that was killed in the stacks and Ray is mentioned in the story.
http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/751329.html

[Cloudbuster]

Whether the police investigation comes to a prosecutable case will fall to Centre County District Attorney Michael Madeira to decide. He said he was far from having enough of a case to take to a grand jury, though state police had displayed what he called a “renewed interest” in solving the case. “There is significant value to that,” Madeira said, “but it is not the same as having evidence.”

JJ grand jurys I think need more evidence?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
Whether the police investigation comes to a prosecutable case will fall to Centre County District Attorney Michael Madeira to decide. He said he was far from having enough of a case to take to a grand jury, though state police had displayed what he called a “renewed interest” in solving the case. “There is significant value to that,” Madeira said, “but it is not the same as having evidence.”

JJ grand jurys I think need more evidence? [/*]

Not to investigate, but to issue an indictment. In PA, grand juries can issue a report regarding the case. They may investigate someone and determine that there was no criminal activity.

[Cloudbuster]

There is a lot of interesting comments after the article.

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Not to investigate, but to issue an indictment. In PA, grand juries can issue a report regarding the case. They may investigate someone and determine that there was no criminal activity. [/*]
under the comments many are saying Betsy and dana Baily's stab wounds was the same. I find it interesting that MM isn't calling a grand jury?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster

under the comments many are saying Betsy and dana Baily's stab wounds was the same. I find it interesting that MM isn't calling a grand jury? [/*]

Actually, Aardsma was killed fully clothed in a public place, with one stab would. The weapon was brought by the killer.

Bailey was in her apartment, naked and tied up, body posed and stabbed multiple times. The weapon was from the apartment.

http://www.phiaonline.org/Unsolved.htm

Sorry, but these two are not even close.

[Cloudbuster]

JJ I didn't say they was I was only reporting what the comments are claiming.;)

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
JJ I didn't say they was I was only reporting what the comments are claiming.;) [/*]

And the comments were quite wrong. :biggrin:

[Cinderella]

Why does it seem like every time, I hear something, I am reminded about Barebrick's posts. This one reminds me about the stolen book.
-----------------------

logicworks
Senior Member



Registered: Jul 2004
Location:
Posts: 2152


quote:Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
An unfortunate setback for Bob Buehner.

http://community.centredaily.com/?q=node/5541 [/*]



Another unfortunate setback.......this time for the Judge. Wonder if Buehner prosecuted the case?

http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/byfo...0/msg00100.html

[Cloudbuster]

Nice find LW!!!! Cind I gotta agree it's like dejuv.

[Serendipitous1]

Lots of glass houses around...lots of broken windows too...all brought into view courtesy of the CDT roller coaster. From Buehner's protest in defense of his friend, to being condemned for going outside "the family" (sounds like the Mafia). And from the legend of Super Buehner, to a castigated DA.

I have to believe Buehner was well aware of his glass abode when he decided to hold a press conference. He said he had thought long and hard before publicly criticizing Madeira, but that it was the right thing to do...what Ray would have done for him.

Thirty days seems to be a popular time frame, for lawyer types and roller coaster rides. Can't wait to see what the next 30 days brings.

[Cinderella]

Sounds like the Judge's son needed money. Wonder what he needed money for? Wonder if they did a drug test on him? Hmmm very interesting, stolen books.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella
Sounds like the Judge's son needed money. Wonder what he needed money for? Wonder if they did a drug test on him? Hmmm very interesting, stolen books. [/*]

That was in 2002.

Buehner's situation is just an admonishment for not moving paper work quickly enough. RFG's one admonishment, that stuck, was for improperly influencing an expert witness. MM might be facing suppressing evidence in a murder trial.

Which one is worse? I'd argue the MM situation.

[J. J. in Phila]

Buehner apparently did prosecute the son of the judge and he has not had too many convictions reversed.

There may be some non-RFG problems there.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by logicworks


I remember reading something 'waaaaaay back when' about this, and the members showing up to defend their leader.

Here is the link that better describes the case........

http://www.dailyitem.com/0700_the_danville_news/local_story_214081510.html
JMO [/*]

No matter what the Amish did they felt their religion should keep them from getting punished by the "English". They felt it should be handled by their elders. But when it is the leader's of their sect commiting the crimes, who do you turn to? I wonder who turned this man in to LE? And what are the abused supposed to think when the families support this man who abused them? Where is the supposrt for them? Our DA's of course!

And the judge said the end result would be the same no matter how long Buehner took to file. Thank God!

[Serendipitous1]

http://community.centredaily.com/?q=node/5541#comment-7429

Thanks for the link, J. J. The roller coaster seems to be on the incline again. Wouldn't you love to see PB's emails and notes (read: sources)? Anyway, with MM and TC hunkered-down, in denial mode, and with no added pressure, we just keep riding round and round.

What saith you, JM? Coming to CC anytime soon? Got your digs lined up for Comedy Night, 2 weeks hence?
http://www.philly.com/dailynews/local/20080804_Stu_Bykofsky__4_more_candidates_join_annu al_comedy_show.html

[gstickley]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
http://community.centredaily.com/?q=node/5541#comment-7429


What saith you, JM? Coming to CC anytime soon? Got your digs lined up for Comedy Night, 2 weeks hence?
http://www.philly.com/dailynews/local/20080804_Stu_Bykofsky__4_more_candidates_join_annu al_comedy_show.html [/*]

Can't access this, S1. Was it good?????????????

[Politigal]

Originally posted by gstickley


Can't access this, S1. Was it good????????????? [/*]

Pete Bosak wrote...

As is usually the case, there is more to this matter than meets the eye. I learned today from District Attorney Buehner that this judge may be upset for more reasons than just a late brief. As it turns out, Buehner has prosecuted the judge's son for felony burglary offenses. There was a story in the July 27th Press Enterprise about the Judge's son's latest arrest for DUI in Luzerne county and not having his probation revoked as is the normal practice plus while previously incarcerated he was released one month early in Dec 2007 when his minimum release date was to be a month later. Sounds like another glass house took a hit.

[gstickley]

Just happenened to come across this & found it verrry interesting in this day & time.

On 04/28/07, "Someone" hacking my posts to death stated:
"Bluntly, you seem to be more interested in looking at the investigation and not what happened to RG." Kinda odd that these days everyone is interested in looking at the investigation! (Or the lack thereof!)

BTW, I'm off to Myrtle Beach on Fri. for a week of sun, sand, no computers. Do ya think I ought to check out all the homeless shelters there to see if RG might be there, since "the chief" has sent inquiries about RG to homeless shelters in "warm weather states"?

[gstickley]

Originally posted by Politigal


Pete Bosak wrote...

As is usually the case, there is more to this matter than meets the eye. I learned today from District Attorney Buehner that this judge may be upset for more reasons than just a late brief. As it turns out, Buehner has prosecuted the judge's son for felony burglary offenses. There was a story in the July 27th Press Enterprise about the Judge's son's latest arrest for DUI in Luzerne county and not having his probation revoked as is the normal practice plus while previously incarcerated he was released one month early in Dec 2007 when his minimum release date was to be a month later. Sounds like another glass house took a hit.
[/*]

Thanks Pgal. Sure hope lots of other glass houses get smashed in the near future!

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by gstickley
Just happenened to come across this & found it verrry interesting in this day & time.

On 04/28/07, "Someone" hacking my posts to death stated:
"Bluntly, you seem to be more interested in looking at the investigation and not what happened to RG." Kinda odd that these days everyone is interested in looking at the investigation! (Or the lack thereof!)

[/*]

Bluntly, I think that is correct to an extent. We've been posting about TC, MM's other cases (and so have I there), Higgins' sexapades, and now Bob Buehner's (perhaps bulletproof) glass house.

I see no relationship between any of these things and RFG's disappearance.

We've had some indication that TC and RFG were not "close," and that there may have been a jurisdictional dispute between RFG and TC. None of those things give TC any reason be involved in the disappearance of RFG, either causing him to walkaway, commit suicide, or to be the victim of murder.

I've never had a hint that there was any problem between RFG and MM; quite the opposite since RFG endorsed MM in the GOP primary! I don't have any links between Higgins and RFG, and Buehner and the judge seems to be due to other matters, not related to RFG.

Now, can, and should, MM do more in this case? Yes to both. Can, and should, Johnson do more? Yes to both. Can, and should, TC do more? Yes to both. Do I even have an inkling that there was some connection between any of these three and RFG's disappearance? No.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by gstickley
Just happenened to come across this & found it verrry interesting in this day & time.

On 04/28/07, "Someone" hacking my posts to death stated:
"Bluntly, you seem to be more interested in looking at the investigation and not what happened to RG." Kinda odd that these days everyone is interested in looking at the investigation! (Or the lack thereof!)

BTW, I'm off to Myrtle Beach on Fri. for a week of sun, sand, no computers. Do ya think I ought to check out all the homeless shelters there to see if RG might be there, since "the chief" has sent inquiries about RG to homeless shelters in "warm weather states"? [/*]

You are such a busy woman! Lucky you going away for a week!
Enjoy yourself!

[Serendipitous1]

Another low dam...opposite a power plant...just down the river from the inflatable dam at Sunbury.
http://www.newsitem.com/articles/2008/08/06/news/sh_newsitem.20080806.a.pg1.sh06canoe_s1.1858948_to p2.txt

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Another low dam...opposite a power plant...just down the river from the inflatable dam at Sunbury.
http://www.newsitem.com/articles/2008/08/06/news/sh_newsitem.20080806.a.pg1.sh06canoe_s1.1858948_to p2.txt [/*]

There are 6-7 dams between Lewisburg and Chesapeake Bay.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
There are 6-7 dams between Lewisburg and Chesapeake Bay. Really? I had no idea.

This is a test...no not a psychic, guess the number I am thinking of test. OK, this is a poll then.

What are the chances J. J. will be the last one to post on this thread tonight?
A. slim to none
ʙ. probable
C. definite

I'll go first.... C.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Another low dam...opposite a power plant...just down the river from the inflatable dam at Sunbury.
http://www.newsitem.com/articles/2008/08/06/news/sh_newsitem.20080806.a.pg1.sh06canoe_s1.1858948_to p2.txt [/*]

Wonder if that was the dam with a pier that Firefly was "seeing"?

[J. J. in Phila]

This is evidence that S1 is more psychic than Firefly.

Here the link listing the dams:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susquehanna_river_dams

It's been posted before and, IIRC, TG didn't realize the number. It looks like 10, with the inflatable dam down at the time.

[Cloudbuster]

Although I do NOT believe RG walked away, I found this and thought JJ might want to add it to his collection of things that need checked out. When people travel and might plan on getting out of the country they often find theirselves needing vacinations to get into another country. Lewisburg has such a place. I wonder who all used these services that friday and under what names? RG would not be known in Lewisburg.

Travel Clinic: Tuesdays and Fridays 9-11:30 am
http://www.bucknell.edu/x7969.xml
Ziegler Health Center Bucknell University
Lewisburg Bucknell University
Ziegler Health Center
Snake Road
Lewisburg, PA 17837
County: Union County
Phone: 570-577-1401

[Cloudbuster]

This link JJ will give you locations thru out PA:
http://www.travelersvaccines.com/en/clinics/locresults.cfm?CustStCd=PA

Ther are 2 located in State College and if he wanted a seret depature then those 2 he would not have used because he was known in that area.

[Cloudbuster]

Factor Lower risk Higher risk
Geographical destination Developed countries Developing countries
Length of stay Short-term Long-term
Location within country Urban Rural, remote areas
Type of accommodation 1st class - resorts 4th class, camping,
backpacking
Purpose of travel Business Pleasure


The amount of preparations required before a trip will depend on a traveler's risk of contracting a disease or illness
International travelers can be at low or high risk, depending on several factors

The Lower Risk Traveler

Short-term business traveler's or tourists who stay in first-class hotels in urban centers should have a safe and healthy trip by taking some minor precautions. The Higher Risk Traveler

Travelers going 'off the beaten track' and long-term or backpack traveler's may require a full set of immunizations and detailed medical advice before leaving.
What immunizations do I need?
There are three types of immunizations: Routine, Required, and Recommended;

Routine Immunizations:
All adults should update these routine immunizations every 10 years, even if they do not plan to travel:

Tetanus and Diphtheria


Required Immunizations:
Some countries will require proof of these immunizations before entry:

Yellow fever
Meningococcal






Recommended Immunizations:
Depending on your itinerary, planned activities and current health status, your health care professional may recommend one or more of these immunizations:

Poliomyelitis
Influenza
Hepatitis A
Hepatitis *
Typhoid
Japanese Encephalitis
Meningococcal
Rabies
Measles, Mumps, Rubella
Yellow Fever


http://www.travelersvaccines.com/en/Before_Leaving/Immunization_Facts.cfm

[Cloudbuster]

There are also 2 travel agencies in Huntingdon PA:

814) 643-5240

US Route 22, Huntingdon, PA 16652


Travel Agents & Agencies



AAA Travel
(814) 643-6121

608 Washington St, Huntingdon, PA 16652

[J. J. in Phila]

Using an actual travel agency in the area would be unlikely (as would RFG doing something like putting airline tickets on his charge card).

Some of the immunizations could be more routine. I know I've had tetanus and influenza routinely, without any intention of visiting any place south of Virginia.

[Cinderella]

I wanted to bring OOBrett's Post over here so I could comment on it. I totally agree with having protection for these people. I think that it is important in this day and age. It used to be, well that is their job, but I don't feel that way. OOBrett thank you for posting the link.

---------------------------


OOBrett
Member

Registered: Nov 2006
Location:
Posts: 99


Don't know how long this will be available. Not sure it's too terribly relevant, either, but Jonathan Luna gets a sentence, so here it is.

U.S. prosecutors feel the heat, want protection

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArtic...d=1202423443974

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
New Post 08-07-2008 11:58 AM

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Cinderella
I wanted to bring OOBrett's Post over here so I could comment on it. I totally agree with having protection for these people. I think that it is important in this day and age. It used to be, well that is their job, but I don't feel that way. OOBrett thank you for posting the link.

---------------------------


OOBrett
Member

Registered: Nov 2006
Location:
Posts: 99


Don't know how long this will be available. Not sure it's too terribly relevant, either, but Jonathan Luna gets a sentence, so here it is.

U.S. prosecutors feel the heat, want protection

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArtic...d=1202423443974

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
New Post 08-07-2008 11:58 AM [/*]

I agree Cindi, but this article is about US State Attorney's, Federal Attorneys, correct? Wouldn't that include AG Tom Corbette as a state Attorney General?

It should include ALL DA's in every state. Maybe DA Buehner should pass this on to the group of men representing the association of DA's, who tried to put him down in Bellefonte. Maybe it would bring more attention to Ray's disappearance if they themselves have to be worrying too.

It is so frustrating to get AG Tom Corbette to step in. Who higher up the line is there to turn to, to make them realise this could be a very big problem in Centre, Union and Northumberland Counties. Even more of PA counties?

[Cinderella]

I meant to say that it should include everybody. I don't know how they would do this, but it is needed. Especially the ones that are enforcing drug laws.

[Serendipitous1]

"Secure parking is the most vital issue for prosecutors, according to survey results."

And did you note the graphic? Nearly half of responding AUSAs said they, or an immediate member of their family, has been threatened or assaulted because of their job...and more than 8 out of every 10 responding AUSAs said they know of another AUSA in their office who has been threatened or assaulted because of their job.

Does anyone believe state/county judges and prosecutors are not also dealing with some highly dangerous individuals and organizations? Oh I forgot, the elite PSP unit found "no inherent risks" indicating a likelihood RG met with foul play...the only thing the family learned from that secret "review".

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
"Secure parking is the most vital issue for prosecutors, according to survey results."

And did you note the graphic? Nearly half of responding AUSAs said they, or an immediate member of their family, has been threatened or assaulted because of their job...and more than 8 out of every 10 responding AUSAs said they know of another AUSA in their office who has been threatened or assaulted because of their job.


First of all threatened covers too much, including and angry defendant/witness/family member/SO/friend making an emotional outburst in court, but having NO intention of doing anything. Second, if someone in a particular USA's office is threatened or assaulted, the likelihood is that everyone who works in that office will hear about it. When those come out of the number, you get the "credible threat." There have been a few, but those numbers are much smaller.

Then out of those that really are a "credible threat," you have two types. The person who has a temper and explodes in court. That's the more common of the two; about once every year or two we get something like that in Phila. Much of that time, the guy is attacking his own lawyer.

The second type is where someone will coldly plan to kill a prosecutor. That's the scenario in the RFG case, the "slow burn." I can only think of two cases where that is leading suspicion, one in the DC area where a drug lord was being prosecuted and tried to put a contract out on the DA and, IIRC, Thomas Wales, from WA or OR that was killed in 2001. The drug lord was caught in process of recruiting the hit man and the Wales case is unsolved.

The only cases within the decade prior to RFG disappearing through today, I can only think of four cases in the US where a prosecutor may have been murdered, an attorney from the AG's office killed in a hit and run (unsolved), Luna, and RFG. There is only one where the evidence conclusively points to murder, Wales.

[J. J. in Phila]

After a rather substantial Google search, I found:

I. One prosecutor, Fred Capps, killed in 2000, in KY, by a guy with charges pending (shooter killed in the process). With Wales, these are only two prosecutors known to have been murdered (that I could find).

The wife of a federal prosecutor, Cindy Leggans, was murdered. A person that she may have been having an affair with is a person of interest.

II. Three plots to kill a prosecutor, one in the DC area, one in Seattle, and one in Utah. None were successful.

III. In terms of crimes:

1. One attorney with the AG's office was killed by a hit and run driver in Harrisburg (1990's, I think).

2. One prosecutor in IL was killed while speeding and driving drunk.

3. Two prosecutors, one from TX and an AUSA from FL (in MI) committed suicide while facing criminal charges.

IV. Unknown:

1. Luna, who was facing criminal investigation as well as job problems at the time of his death.

2. RFG. Need we say that there was no evidence of misconduct either personally or professionally.

There just isn't a lot there.

[sherrijean981]

I changed from cable to Dish Network and no longer receive my favorite local news station WTAJ - so I went to their site and found the following article today.

On another previous subject, on the ethics in the state government, is an article that was on WTAJ-TV news site.


http://wearecentralpa.com/content/fulltext/?cid=20991

I thought of TC and Harley-har-har and his other employees who are campaigning for him and on leave of absence/or not.
I agree with Mr. Eichelberger. I also think if these people don't want to work for their money, they should get out of the government jobs and let others in who want to work.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981
I changed from cable to Dish Network and no longer receive my favorite local news station WTAJ - so I went to their site and found the following article today.

On another previous subject, on the ethics in the state government, is an article that was on WTAJ-TV news site.


http://wearecentralpa.com/content/fulltext/?cid=20991

I thought of TC and Harley-har-har and his other employees who are campaigning for him and on leave of absence/or not.
I agree with Mr. Eichelberger. I also think if these people don't want to work for their money, they should get out of the government jobs and let others in who want to work. [/*]

Harley, IIRC, is not attached to the campaign, but is the spokesman and was held over from Fisher. He's attached to the office, not the campaign.

When he responds about official conduct, that isn't campaigning, technically.

Question, do you still get WJAC?

[Serendipitous1]

Some more highlights from the security survey:
http://www.naausa.org/initiatives/Security%20survey.htm
And the survey questions and breakdown of answers:
http://www.naausa.org/initiatives/SurveySummary_04282008.pdf

PA and TX had the most completed surveys (98 each).

Of those responding, 578 had 20 or more years of service (equivalent to RG). Two-thirds (385) of that subgroup said they or an immediate family member had been threatened or assaulted because of their job. And 70% of that subgroup said prosecutors who carry high vulnerability caseloads, and who demonstrated proficiency in the use of firearms, should be authorized to carry one if they requested to do so.

Other security measures suggested by the respondents included protecting home address/phone records; removing information from local property listings, driver’s licenses, etc.; requiring notification when inmates who have threatened are released; and providing escort guards to un-secure parking late at night.

Some of which RG might have been thinking about when he registered the Mini Cooper to PF, kept his name off of the property deed, protected his home address and phone number, etc. Some of which might explain unusual stress and behavior, and possibly even the timing, while he was still working...and accessible. LY: “My concern is that he was driving a very distinctive automobile. As you well know, Greta, in any seminars that we go to, they tell us not to do anything that singles yourself out.”

But nah. That’s just crazy paranoid, I guess. J. J. has assured us it is no big deal. Prosecutors and their families should just chill, because most threats are made without the intent to carry them out. Which to me is like saying, there are 5400 federal prosecutors...so why be concerned if a few get assaulted, picked off, and/or disappeared?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1

But nah. That’s just crazy paranoid, I guess. J. J. has assured us it is no big deal. Prosecutors and their families should just chill, because most threats are made without the intent to carry them out. Which to me is like saying, there are 5400 federal prosecutors...so why be concerned if a few get assaulted, picked off, and/or disappeared? [/*]

Well, you noticed what there main concern was, parking. Not be being stalked, not being shot through their windows (which is what happened to Wales), but someone attacking them in the heat of the moment.

There was such a case, where an AUSA was attacked in NY, a few months ago. It was in the courtroom. The defendant, who was facing life, attacked an AUSA. Prosecutors and defense attorneys do worry, and have legitimate worries, about that.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/20/national/20judges.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&oref=slogin

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/12/nyregion/12court.html?fta=y

RFG wasn't in court when he disappeared; he wasn't even the same town, but 50 miles away.

How many prosecutors have been murdered in the US since 2000, not just US attorneys but all prosecutors? I can find two that definitely were; neither from PA. How many plans to kill a prosecutor were planned out and stopped. Three that I can find, none from PA.

Right now, I've found more prosecutors that committed suicide while facing criminal charges or died while committing a criminal act (three).

How many prosecutors are no longer with us, because they might have been murdered? Two, JPL and RFG, and both may have other explanations.

I asked this question a long time ago and never got an answer. How many prosecutors (including assistants at the federal, state or county level), in the last 20 years, who actually worked in PA, have known to have been murdered? The answer I keep coming up with is zero.

How many serious plots to murder a prosecutor (including assistants at the federal, state or county level), in the last 20 years, who actually worked in PA, were stopped by LE? I can't find one, though I'd expect there to be one.

How many times has a prosecutor (including assistants at the federal, state or county level), in the last 20 years, who actually worked in PA, been attacked by a someone he was prosecuting or that person's friends and or family outside of a courthouse. I can't think of any. Please, S1, enlighten us.

[Serendipitous1]

So you write off this survey -- the concerns of federal prosecutors, which certainly must mirror those of state and local prosecutors, because they are not dropping like flies...because Luna and Gricar may be the first to have died?

A sampler regarding threats, from before things got nasty...leaving out Keisling for the moment, and McKnight's documented distress caused by repeated threats from a whacko:

4/17/05 - Then Senior Deputy AG Madeira: “It’s something you never think will happen. But, being in law enforcement, it’s a risk you have to take.” “He’s never talked about being threatened. I’ve never heard of anything like that.” Carbon DA Dobias: Still, DAs tend to be the targets of occasional threats. “I wouldn’t say it’s common, but it does happen.”

4/29/05 - Cumberland DA Ebert, in Patton Township for a scheduled PDAA Executive Committee meeting: “Everyone is speculating.” Ebert said he had his car tires slashed and bricks thrown through his windows. But he said his e-mail conversations since RG’s disappearance had not yet raised systemic questions about the potential peril. “That hasn’t yet been verbalized.” “All of us live with some of that. I mean, we’re dealing with criminals.”

5/4/05 - LG, after returning home: “Well, as a prosecutor, he dealt with a lot of criminals, so I need to be very open to that. And it just seems like a very possible reason to his disappearance at this point.” “The thing is with my dad, is he wouldn’t have discussed [threats] with anybody. So...he would not have let the family know.”

5/13/05 - AG Corbett: hope for a happy ending to Gricar’s disappearance is fading because so much time has gone by without a trace of him.

5/20/05 - Chief Dixon: “It’s not looking good.” “Statistically, if you don’t find someone within a few days, it’s bad news.”

6/10/05 - Officer Zaccagni: Police have a short list of suspects who may have had motive to kill Gricar, most of whom are people Gricar prosecuted during his 25-year tenure at the DAs office.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
So you write off this survey -- the concerns of federal prosecutors, which certainly must mirror those of state and local prosecutors, because they are not dropping like flies...because Luna and Gricar may be the first to have died?


No, I'm saying that are minimal risks to being a prosecutor and that most threats that exist are in the courtroom/courthouse.


A sampler regarding threats, from before things got nasty...leaving out Keisling for the moment, and McKnight's documented distress caused by repeated threats from a whacko:


Did the "whacko" try to kill him or just mutter, "I'm going to get you?" I've had threats like that when I was working, but never serious ones.

I actually agree with Dobias statement, “I wouldn’t say it’s common, but it does happen.”

Now, I've know or know of local officials, in smaller towns, that have had their calls vandalized, their windows broken, harassing phone calls. What job did they have? They were school teachers.

I've known of people threated at their government jobs, and occasionally attacked. What job did they have? They were welfare caseworkers.

I could also say the same thing about borough and township officials. Yes, they do occasionally have their windows broken, or their car vandalized, and occasionally they are murdered, but it is a rarity.

The PSP-CIA report said "no inherent risk." Since we can't cite any prosecutor in the state that was actually murdered (well, maybe there was someone in regard to the Molly McGuires, but we don't seem to have any recently), they were probably correct in using the term.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks
Question here..............PF changed her job in January, 2005, moving into the position of a clerk, well below her position as Victim's Advocate and previous position as Parole Officer, which never made much sense to me considering 'retirement' was seemingly up and coming soon anyway.


She was planning to leave when RFG retired, and I can understand why, in January 2005, they both would have wanted to fill what was a position VWA because it was a more skilled decision. You would have a new DA and one of the more "key" positions vacant. It would be easier on the "new person," whomever that would be, during the transition. That's not uncommon.

As to a threat, it's possible, but her ex-husband works for the probation office, so that might have something to do it.

If murder, there are are a number of more personal motives. Somebody though RFG was having an affair with his wife or SO. Someone wanted to get RFG out of the way to that they could closer to PEF. Someone wanted to hurt PEF by killing her "soul mate." Someone was angry with RFG because he chose PEF over her. The first thing, before we get to any of these is determining if it was murder.

[J. J. in Phila]

I did find that Franklin Gowen, DA of Schuylkill County, received a "death card," which may have been faked, from the Molly McGuires in 1876.

[sherrijean981]

Cindi, I tried looking up the photo's I took of BJL's property, with the land, building and silo-corn crib, Bellefonte and Lewisburg photo's and they are all gone!! We had to save all photo's on a cd when my computer hard drive went out but none of them were on the cd. I am very disappointed and upset. Sorry I couldn't help you with the photo's.

[Politigal]

I heard thru the grapevine....

when PF changed positions, she then started dropping hints in the office that she was dating someone from the DA's office....

My source actually thought she was dating Mark Smith, even tho' he's married, because he & PF seemed to have such a close relationship that went back several yrs prior.....my source was stunned to learn it was actually Gricar that PF was seeing at that time.

Just thought I'd add a little more spice to the soup....

:read:

[Politigal]

Maybe Patty *didn't* change positions to be closer to Gricar....

:shrug:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal
I heard thru the grapevine....

when PF changed positions, she then started dropping hints in the office that she was dating someone from the DA's office....

My source actually thought she was dating Mark Smith, even tho' he's married, because he & PF seemed to have such a close relationship that went back several yrs prior.....my source was stunned to learn it was actually Gricar that PF was seeing at that time.

Just thought I'd add a little more spice to the soup....

:read: [/*]

Well, when PEF became a clerk, January 2005, RFG had been living with her for eight months, minimum; it might have been over a year. They went on a joint vacation in July of 2004, and at that time RFG was driving the Mini with a vanity plate with a variation of her name. They seem to have been seen in public places in Bellefonte together, as well.

Your source might not be the the most observant one on the planet (though in all fairness, I've had similar experiences).

[Politigal]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Well, when PEF became a clerk, January 2005, RFG had been living with her for eight months, minimum; it might have been over a year. They went on a joint vacation in July of 2004, and at that time RFG was driving the Mini with a vanity plate with a variation of her name. They seem to have been seen in public places in Bellefonte together, as well.

Your source might not be the the most observant one on the planet (though in all fairness, I've had similar experiences). [/*]

It's possible I misunderstood my source as to the timing.

Whatever...when PF dropped hints that she was dating someone in the DA's office, some thought she was dating Mark Smith because they were so close....

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


It's possible I misunderstood my source as to the timing.

Whatever...when PF dropped hints that she was dating someone in the DA's office, some thought she was dating Mark Smith because they were so close.... [/*]

And some people assumed that the HW was RFG's old girlfriend, yet JKA didn't think so.

I have a friend, female, that I've known for more than a quarter century. At various times, her sister, my friends, and my supervisor at work, assumed that we were having a relationship. We never had one.

I frankly have never heard any suggestions that PEF was "close" to Smith.

[J. J. in Phila]

I checked the initial news story, and the move in date was "more than 18 months ago." http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05109/490420-85.stm

That would put the time that RFG moved in at the latest in November 2003.

Also they were known to be a "couple" in their neighborhood, according to the paper.

[Cloudbuster]

U.S. prosecutors feel the heat, want protection
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1202423443974#

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
U.S. prosecutors feel the heat, want protection
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1202423443974# [/*]

Which isn't a lot and deals mainly with courthouse security, especially parking.

Of the three murders/possible murders mentioned, I've mentioned two. This is the third:



Later that year, Chicago federal prosecutor Michael Messer was shot and killed after leaving a training program put on by the Justice Department's National Advocacy Center at the University of South Carolina. Four teens were later convicted of killing Messer as part of a robbery spree.



Emphasis added.

So, in terms of the 5,400 prosecutors, you have one murdered, Wales, that may or may not involve his official actions, one that may not be a murder, Luna, and one that was part of a robbery, Messer.

This works out, including Luna and Messer, to 7.9 per 100,000 per year. 2007, murder rate in Philadelphia, 28 per 100,000. http://www.philly.com/inquirer/currents/20080525_There_s_no_evidence_that_banning_guns_cut s_crime.html

Now, bluntly, it was lower at some points over the last seven years, but the numbers I've seen was are still in the high teens. So let's just put this "inherent risk" into perspective.

http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/murder.html

I assumed that Luna was murdered for that purpose, but I really suspect suicide. What if it was suicide? That is now 5.3 per 100,000, per year. The lowest per year for the general population was 5.5, though the highest was 5.7 (both for 100,000).

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

While everyone might, rightly, be worried about the risk, and try to minimize it, there isn't an "inherent risk." Sorry, but on that point, the PSP-CIA review got it right.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila <Snip>
I'm saying that [sic] are minimal risks to being a prosecutor and that most threats that exist are in the courtroom/courthouse. Did the "whacko" try to kill him or just mutter, "I'm going to get you?" McKnight said he received between 50 and 100 threats directed at him, his wife and daughter. The perp claimed he was Jesus Christ and there were reports he kept a pistol in his car. McKnight said he was convinced the man would, at some point, try to kill him. And the man's son is serving a life sentence for murdering his mother.
http://www.lockhaven.com/page/content.detail/id/501519.html?showlayout=0

This was a civil suit, after the fact. In reality though, it is a rare public look at what I believe to be a common occurence. You can say, but the guy never carried out his threats. But that is hindsight. The threat was obviously real to McKnight in real time.

Funny you should mention car vandalism...as did DA Ebert...because the only prior incident I could find online for RG was when he reported that the driver side window of his car, parked at his home, was smashed. But as his daughter said, he was not one to bring threats home, to his family.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
McKnight said he received between 50 and 100 threats directed at him, his wife and daughter. The perp claimed he was Jesus Christ and there were reports he kept a pistol in his car. McKnight said he was convinced the man would, at some point, try to kill him. And the man's son is serving a life sentence for murdering his mother.
http://www.lockhaven.com/page/content.detail/id/501519.html?showlayout=0


S1, how many time did this person attempt or plan to injure Mr. McKnight? 50 to 100 or zero?

Whether or not McKnight thought the threat was real, does not make it real.

Like I've indicated previously, I use to work in the Welfare Office, over the years, there were a total of 7 people in my unit (about 100 in that particular district office). At lest six of us had "threats" at some point; I can think of two directed at me. Number of threats carried out, zero.

Number of attacks on those hundred or so workers dealing directly with clients. Two, after 5 years; one of them may not have known that the guy worked there. Number of people worried about it? All 100. "Inherent risk?" Not too high.


Funny you should mention car vandalism...

Yes, I can think of two school teachers, not in Phila, who had their cars or houses vandalized. Local, subcounty, officials that had their cars or homes vandalized, five. Out of that number, the number physically attacked, zero. Number murdered, zero. "Inherent risk?" Not too high.

Once someone snapped of the antenna on my car, while a was with the Welfare Office. At my house, but probably not by any recipient. A number of people had their tires slashed. "Inherent risk" that was job related? Not too high.

Number of prosecutors (federal, state and local) murdered in PA in the ten years prior to 4/15/05? One, possibly, who was from out of state. Number since 4/15/05? Zero. Number of murder attempts on prosecutors (federal, state and local) outside of a courthouse in PA in the ten years prior to 4/15/05? None that I can find. Number since 4/15/05? None that I can find.

I'll agree, a prosecutor may have a higher risk of being threatened that the average American. The question isn't if RFG had an "inherent risk" of being threatened, but of being murdered. So far, the PSP seems to have it right.

[J. J. in Phila]

Here is the story I was thinking of earlier:

http://www.nbc10.com/news/4411487/detail.html

A man, Sanford Douglas, Jr., killed a former coworker from a nursing home after carrying a seven year grudge because the coworker allegedly told a racial joke.

So, the question is now, is there an "inherent risk" of murder because someone works in a nursing home? My guess is no.

[Cinderella]

J. J., I don't understand you. You are a very intelligent person, but there seems to be blinders on your eyes a lot of the times. I don't get it.

Please give it up with Luna. He did not commmit suicide. hammer

BTW, where is the smilie with blinders?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella
J. J., I don't understand you. You are a very intelligent person, but there seems to be blinders on your eyes a lot of the times. I don't get it.

Please give it up with Luna. He did not commmit suicide. hammer

BTW, where is the smilie with blinders? [/*]

I've listed Luna as possible murder, but even LE questions if it was. Even if it was, it doesn't seem to have been anyone associated with someone he was prosecuting.

I'm looking at the "inherent risk" for a prosecutor, outside of the courthouse. I don't doubt that people threaten them; I don't doubt that they are attacked in the courthouse. I'd say the same for defense attorney. I do however question how common it is for a prosecutor to be targeted outside of the courthouse. Statistically, I might be facing a greater "inherent risk" walking down the street in my neighborhood than RFG did as a prosecutor.

[Cinderella]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


I've listed Luna as possible murder, but even LE questions if it was. Even if it was, it doesn't seem to have been anyone associated with someone he was prosecuting.

----------------

J. J., How can you say that? You don't know. :punch:

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
"Secure parking is the most vital issue for prosecutors, according to survey results."

And did you note the graphic? Nearly half of responding AUSAs said they, or an immediate member of their family, has been threatened or assaulted because of their job...and more than 8 out of every 10 responding AUSAs said they know of another AUSA in their office who has been threatened or assaulted because of their job.

Does anyone believe state/county judges and prosecutors are not also dealing with some highly dangerous individuals and organizations? Oh I forgot, the elite PSP unit found "no inherent risks" indicating a likelihood RG met with foul play...the only thing the family learned from that secret "review". [/*]

Wasn't there a Centre County attorney who called LE about an angry man who was coming to his office? Just before RG disappeared?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella
[QUOTE]Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


I've listed Luna as possible murder, but even LE questions if it was. Even if it was, it doesn't seem to have been anyone associated with someone he was prosecuting.

----------------

J. J., How can you say that? You don't know. :punch: [/*]

Cind, LE has raised the possibility of suicide (perhaps accidental) two to four months after Luna died, so its there.

While Luna did prosecute some dangerous people, most didn't use a penknife to kill/assault their victims. They also supply their own weapons. The several that he was prosecuting at the time have a fairly solid alibi; they were in jail. The MO was very different from anything done by the type of criminals Luna prosecuted.

It doesn't seem that, even if it was a murder, it was someone he prosecuted.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Harley, IIRC, is not attached to the campaign, but is the spokesman and was held over from Fisher. He's attached to the office, not the campaign.

When he responds about official conduct, that isn't campaigning, technically.

Question, do you still get WJAC? [/*]

No, don't get WJAC-TV either, but I go to their sites to read now.

I get WGAL, WHTM (Harrisuburg/York) area. Not sure what else is on this thing. I no longer get Tru-TV and a couple other stations. My 700 Club, Rachel Ray, is on at other times. Not sure about Oprah, either. It is going to take some getting used to.
We had bad weather yesterday and it kept going off the air. I don't like that!!! Never lost channels with cable, unless the line went down in the area, which might have happened a couple times in the past 14 years.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila



So, in terms of the 5,400 prosecutors, you have one murdered, Wales, that may or may not involve his official actions, one that may not be a murder, Luna, and one that was part of a robbery, Messer.

http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/murder.html

I assumed that Luna was murdered for that purpose, but I really suspect suicide. What if it was suicide? That is now 5.3 per 100,000, per year. The lowest per year for the general population was 5.5, though the highest was 5.7 (both for 100,000).
[/*]

You actually think Luna committed suicide????? By having someone else stab him to death? I don't believe it.

From the very beginning it has sounded like murder to me. Someone setting things up in places to make you wonder, but someone killed him. Even the person doing the autopsy thought so.