Odds and Ends, Pt. II

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


I've listed Luna as possible murder, but even LE questions if it was. Even if it was, it doesn't seem to have been anyone associated with someone he was prosecuting.

I'm looking at the "inherent risk" for a prosecutor, outside of the courthouse. I don't doubt that people threaten them; I don't doubt that they are attacked in the courthouse. I'd say the same for defense attorney. I do however question how common it is for a prosecutor to be targeted outside of the courthouse. Statistically, I might be facing a greater "inherent risk" walking down the street in my neighborhood than RFG did as a prosecutor. [/*]

And no possibility those same LE fellows helped set him up and made it look like suicide? I get newsletters from the FBI and another LE link and they are always bringing up LE agencies with employees doing the deeds others were blamed for. Commiting robberies, scams, selling drugs, stealing from their own employers, etc, etc.

I also believe there are a lot more out there that have just not been found out yet!

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


And no possibility those same LE fellows helped set him up and made it look like suicide?

That wouldn't make it one of the people he prosecuted. The "setup" angle in that case is a bit difficult. He might have been involved in something not above board.

We, however, have never of anything involving the Centre County DA's office.

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


Wasn't there a Centre County attorney who called LE about an angry man who was coming to his office? Just before RG disappeared? [/*]


That was Attorney Bruce Manchester or someone in his office.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks



It doesn't require a rocket scientist to raise a possibility, but it does require a competent investigator(s) to prove it, something which has not occurred in either case, in fact, much the opposite. It instead has become an excuse to hide behind for not conducting a full investigation.



No "excuse," though perhaps an explanation.


In RG's case, we see suicide immediately placed on the front burner as holding the highest possibility, and continuing on as highest possibility for years WITHOUT a body, without a note, without anything to indicate such occurred.


And we know why some people thought so. I've found quite interesting that when the level of apprehension on the part of at least some of RFG's coworkers increased only when he didn't show up for work on Monday; the bar was "divided" on what happened. To me, that indicates that suicide was not at the forefront


In the Luna case, we have the body, proving that with or without a body, there are some bodies that are either incapable or unwilling to see past the end of their own noses.
JMO [/*]

Oh, we have a body at the start of the Luna case, an initial presumption that it was murder, and a great deal of evidence to be analyzed. After more details come out.

His rather unusual trip that night, complete with both an electronic and witness record. Physical evidence, linking only one person to the car, JPL. Physical evidence on the body, showing no restraint, no defense wounds. His record at work. A missing $36 K, and JPL's postponement of several polygraph sessions. All details pointing to something, but not pointing to something involving a defendant.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks



An explanation for the lack of a full investigation? IMO, that is equal to an 'excuse'. There is no logical reason for this case not having been taken higher LOOOOONG ago other than someone prevents it from going higher.



No, in the JPL case the was a presumption of murder and a solid investigation. Luna's route was reconstructed (with a gap), witnesses located, and a great deal of forensic work done. What they found raised the specter of suicide.


Since when does what people 'thought' at the time as having happened to him have anything whatsoever to do with what actually might have happened to him, based on the actual evidence?
JMO [/*]

And evidence of murder? No signs of a struggle, no witness accounts of someone grabbing RFG. No dead body with evidence of murder.

What did people initially think? TG stated that he and CG heard "Water Street," they immediately thought of suicide; in the circumstances, it is understandable.

What did at least some of RFG's coworkers think? Initially that he'd be in on Monday; then they started to worry.

What did LE do? Process the car at the PSP barracks and call in bloodhounds and a cadaver dog. Begin to have the river searched. Look for witnesses.

[Serendipitous1]

Love the comment on that article too - [Hey Synagro] "Why don't you publish the lab analysis then, so we might know what all is in this goo being sucked up into the food we eat."

Speaking of lab analysis...why did it take nearly 2 years for the FBI guys to process DNA evidence, enter it in the database, get a hit and/or notify investigators?
http://www.dailyitem.com/0100_news/local_story_221152438.html
Well at least they got their "ducks in a row"...eventually.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Love the comment on that article too - [Hey Synagro] "Why don't you publish the lab analysis then, so we might know what all is in this goo being sucked up into the food we eat."

Speaking of lab analysis...why did it take nearly 2 years for the FBI guys to process DNA evidence, enter it in the database, get a hit and/or notify investigators?
http://www.dailyitem.com/0100_news/local_story_221152438.html
Well at least they got their "ducks in a row"...eventually. [/*]

I'd suspect the backlog. They started general collection of inmates DNA only during the Rendell administration, so it wouldn't have started until 2003 at the earliest.

[J. J. in Phila]

Please explain any relevance between this and RFG's disappearance.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks



Do you know for a fact that RG did not disappear as a result of corruption and at what level that corruption exists? Until you do, all avenues remain open. Or is it that I need to add a disclaimer to this one also, saying 'anyone not interested in corruption, please pass on by'?
JMO [/*]

Do you have a shred of evidence linking this company to Centre County, or to a case that RFG was prosecuting.

Do you know for a fact that RFG wasn't:

1. Kidnapped by a Mauritanian slave trader?

2. Beamed up by a UFO?

3. Carries off by Bigfoot?

Do you have any evidence that those things didn't happen?

[J. J. in Phila]

Lewisburg wouldn't.

You are basically talking about civil law, which wouldn't involved the District Attorney's office.

Unless there is some linkage, it is a dead end.

[Serendipitous1]

Make a connection to RG's disappearance? How likely is it that any of us could ever do that? But TC absolutely is connected to RG...and also to the failed investigation, by his conspicuous absence.

RG's case remains padlocked in the freezer, with MM holding the key. And absent further evidence coming to light, it is assured that re-electing TC will keep it there...indefinitely. So whether it is sludge application, Bonusgate, the gaming fiasco, the Buehner/McKnight review, PDAA wimps, or whatever...ripping TC is fair game here.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Make a connection to RG's disappearance? How likely is it that any of us could ever do that? But TC absolutely is connected to RG...and also to the failed investigation, by his conspicuous absence.

RG's case remains padlocked in the freezer, with MM holding the key. And absent further evidence coming to light, it is assured that re-electing TC will keep it there...indefinitely. So whether it is sludge application, Bonusgate, the gaming fiasco, the Buehner/McKnight review, PDAA wimps, or whatever...ripping TC is fair game here. [/*]

First, I agree that TC could do more, i.e. form a grand jury.

Second, the has been a reason given why TC hasn't entered into this. He doesn't want an unsolved case on his plate. That was given by Buehner and inspired the "gutless coward" comment. I agree, but I don't see any other ulterior motive, and I can't find any.

Third, the people that do hold the investigative key are Johnson and Mediera, the latter especially. Both could thumb their noses at TC. While MM has a strong connection to TC, I can't see one for Johnson.

We are getting to the point of Bindelsburg Group/Illuminati/Jesuits/Freemasons/Bohmemian Grove/Skull and Bones/CIA/Grey Aliens Conspiracy Theory without some very solid linkage

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by logicworks
RG's vehicle, according to TG was parked closer to the rear entrance of a house that borders the lot, which at the time of disappearance was owned by someone with same name, than it was to the front of the lot by the street.

When I first searched under the name and this photo came up, I couldn't believe it......it was exactly what I was describing and had referred to a gazillion times. I think you will see exactly what I mean............and no, I hadn't seen the photo first......When I first started using the 'term' for description, I hesitated using it because I didn't want it confused with referring to a former poster, but I had no other way to describe what it looked like to me. This is a sludge hauling company.

http://www.jpmascaro.com/news.htm

JMO [/*]

I can't get your link to open up.

I have a question to you or anyone reading.

My nephew told me tonight he just heard a radio station in State College say that RG's hard drive went to the Kroll Co. and they will be able to get info from it. He was talking just days ago.

Has anyone else heard that they received it and that info came back? Does anyone else listen to that station?

I did a search on WJAC-TV and Centre Daily Times but nothing came up. I searched for radio stations in State College and there were 2 93's list. One took me to a website, so I sent an email about what my nephew told me and if they did such a story would they please send me the info. The other station did not take me anywhere.

I don't remember the radio station he was listening to but think it was 93. One I would not have ever listened to even if I got it, which I don't. He works out of Milesburg as a truck driver.

[J. J. in Phila]

The only things I've seen is about sending it out and would try to lift the data. That's after a Google search. No results.

Maybe Tony's heard something?

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
Lewisburg wouldn't.

You are basically talking about civil law, which wouldn't involved the District Attorney's office.

Unless there is some linkage, it is a dead end. [/*]

JJ RG was interested in EPA issues and waste.
The Attorney General’s Environmental Crimes Section initiated the investigation based on a referral from Centre County District Attorney Ray F. Gricar. http://www.dep.state.pa.us/dep/DEPUTATE/POLYCOMM/update/06-30-00/063000up.pdf.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster


JJ RG was interested in EPA issues and waste.
The Attorney General’s Environmental Crimes Section initiated the investigation based on a referral from Centre County District Attorney Ray F. Gricar. http://www.dep.state.pa.us/dep/DEPUTATE/POLYCOMM/update/06-30-00/063000up.pdf. [/*]

Files missing.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster


JJ RG was interested in EPA issues and waste.
The Attorney General’s Environmental Crimes Section initiated the investigation based on a referral from Centre County District Attorney Ray F. Gricar. http://www.dep.state.pa.us/dep/DEPUTATE/POLYCOMM/update/06-30-00/063000up.pdf. [/*]

Was this the article on the funeral home in Centre Hall not disposing of bodily fluids correctly, and it was being stored on a man's property instead of the correct disposal?

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


Was this the article on the funeral home in Centre Hall not disposing of bodily fluids correctly, and it was being stored on a man's property instead of the correct disposal? [/*]

yep and the man lives in Centre hall I believe.

[Cloudbuster]

A different link for landfill
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-118205889.html

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
A different link for landfill
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-118205889.html [/*]

None of that is criminal. The CDT is encouraging the Township to set up zoning.

[sherrijean981]

By this link, PA had an Act 90 law put into affect in 2003 that all PA landfills can only accept waste from licensed operators and trucks. There must be records/paperwork kept at the landfills of any vehicle that did business there.

http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:hJi8KiFHhiQJ:www.ahs.dep.state.pa.u s/newsreleases/default.asp%3FID%3D2247%26varQueryType%3DDetail+bl oomsburg,+pa+landfill&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=9&gl=us

[Cinderella]

J. J., I was thinking about something that we previously talked about. It was if Ray was killed then this person that killed Ray was brilliant.

I changed my mind about this. There are no brilliant killers. Everyone that kills someone else is stupid.

Like firefly said, Someone is looking at tying loose ends up. So the killer if Ray was killed, has to be looking over his shoulder and wandering, If he is next.

Also if Ray was murdered, what did the killer leave at the scene. When LE does find Ray, what will LE find? It is just a matter of time. Maybe someone else will kill the killer before Ray's body is found. I would say that this will most likely be what transpires.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella
J. J., I was thinking about something that we previously talked about. It was if Ray was killed then this person that killed Ray was brilliant.

I changed my mind about this. There are no brilliant killers. Everyone that kills someone else is stupid.


Cind, there are probably hundreds of brilliant killers out there. If this was murder, K managed to either kill RFG in the middle of a public place without leaving a trace of not only himself but his victim, or managed to get RFG out of that place, without creating a fuss.

He's not only smarter than I am, but he's smarter than RFG was. That thought should send a chill down the spine of every resident of Centre and Union Counties.

[Cinderella]

He may or may not be J.J, If we are thinking that Ray was murdered then maybe LE is holding onto some evidence just waiting for the killer to slip up. The numbers have to be low on somebody who pulled off a perfect crime scene. Brilliant, I don't think so. It would not take so much to hold a gun to someone and catch them off guard. Is the exercise tape really an exercise tape or is it a tape with something else on it?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella Brilliant, I don't think so. It would not take so much to hold a gun to someone and catch them off guard. I

It does to catch them off guard in a public place and do it quietly.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks



Putting all the evidence together that we are aware of, it is rather 'strange' that the car was supposedly seen pulling into the lot somewhere around 5 pm, sometime close to the time when the couple from Lock Haven are saying they saw RG in the Mini on Route 15, traveling toward Lewisburg. No mention yet of whether there was someone with him in the Mini or not.


Actually, quite wrong. We've had a number of people reporting RFG seeing the Mini and RFG in the parking lot between 5:00 PM and 6:00 PM, but no general time. At about 5:00 PM, the Mini is seen on the Route 15, which at some points is less than two miles from the parking lot. It would be very easy to be on Route 15 at 5:00 PM, heading toward Lewisburg, and in the parking lot between 5:00 PM and 6:00 PM. This sighting fits the time line.



If the sighting of the car in the lot was before 5 pm, a 'pit' stop before leaving for home could have been the reason for going there.



Route 15 is west of the parking lot, between Lewisburg and Bellefonte. If he heads to the parking lot from Route 15, he's heading away from home.



The other reason would be if the MW's car had been left there in the SOS lot, in which case when the couple saw RG headed for Lewisburg, the MW would have had to have been with him.

If the MW walked from 'work' that day to meet RG, then he may have dropped her off at work, on Route 15, and he may have been seen headed to the SOS for a 'pit' stop before returning home.


It would be unlikely that she'd walk from work on Route 15 to the SOS and RFG would be returning her there.

There is another possibity. While I've been told that McKnight's witness saw the Mini and RFG close to Lewisburg, I don't know if he saw him north or south of a spot where he could have turned off. If it was north, he could have been coming from I-80; Route 15 is the main road between I-80 and Lewisburg.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by logicworks


What we need to know is what was seen in the lot when he pulled in.....was he with the MW, or was he alone? And is there a witness, other than a vision, who saw a man leaning in the window?

IMO, there may be reasons we are unaware of why no scene or struggle would have occurred: an example.........if an employee walked out of the SOS, and a man had a gun on RG in the car, I seriously doubt RG would start yelling or carrying on out of fear the witness could be shot. Instead, I think, he would hope the witness could reconstruct exactly what was seen.
JMO [/*]

If RG had pulled into the lot and the MW was with him, had not left the car yet, maybe the man leaning in the windown had the gun pointed on the MW and not RG. RG would not do anything to get the MW hurt, no matter who she was or how she related to him. It could have been after he got out of the car and into the other car that he found out they were not going to hurt the MW. It was him they wanted.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Actually, quite wrong. We've had a number of people reporting RFG seeing the Mini and RFG in the parking lot between 5:00 PM and 6:00 PM, but no general time. At about 5:00 PM, the Mini is seen on the Route 15, which at some points is less than two miles from the parking lot. It would be very easy to be on Route 15 at 5:00 PM, heading toward Lewisburg, and in the parking lot between 5:00 PM and 6:00 PM. This sighting fits the time line

Route 15 is west of the parking lot, between Lewisburg and Bellefonte. If he heads to the parking lot from Route 15, he's heading away from home.

It would be unlikely that she'd walk from work on Route 15 to the SOS and RFG would be returning her there.

There is another possibity. While I've been told that McKnight's witness saw the Mini and RFG close to Lewisburg, I don't know if he saw him north or south of a spot where he could have turned off. If it was north, he could have been coming from I-80; Route 15 is the main road between I-80 and Lewisburg. [/*]


If coming from I-80 you don't have to drive through Lewisburg to get to the SOS. There is a road near the malls, north of Lewisburg, that goes around and comes in from the northwest. Only one other road and Water St are used from Rt 15.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


If RG had pulled into the lot and the MW was with him, had not left the car yet, maybe the man leaning in the windown had the gun pointed on the MW and not RG. RG would not do anything to get the MW hurt, no matter who she was or how she related to him. It could have been after he got out of the car and into the other car that he found out they were not going to hurt the MW. It was him they wanted. [/*]

Why doesn't MW immediately run to the police? How does the gunman know they'll be there.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Why doesn't MW immediately run to the police? How does the gunman know they'll be there. [/*]

Wasn't there a siting of him being pulled over on I-80 near Milton? If someone pulled him over and was following him, then he knew where he was, just had to wait for him to bring the woman to her car.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


Wasn't there a siting of him being pulled over on I-80 near Milton? If someone pulled him over and was following him, then he knew where he was, just had to wait for him to bring the woman to her car. [/*]

How did they know he'd be with the woman? She'd have to be in on it.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


How did they know he'd be with the woman? She'd have to be in on it. [/*]

Probably was. If I had been talking to a man who later disappeared and there was nothing going on, I would have come forward a long time ago. It was all over the news, in the papers and on tv. She isn't blind or stupid. She has something to hide.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


Probably was. If I had been talking to a man who later disappeared and there was nothing going on, I would have come forward a long time ago. It was all over the news, in the papers and on tv. She isn't blind or stupid. She has something to hide. [/*]

They you are talking about a luring, which goes back to the murder scenario thread.

[Cinderella]

BTW, did we lose the murder scenerio thread?

I have to say that I feel that alot of what the public has been told about Ray's disappearence isn't really the truth.

Some of us noticed that Patty's story was changed several times. I don't think that this was PF's doing, I think that it was LE. I also don't believe that LE gave the public the correct timeline as I stated that I met a person who saw Ray in Centre Hall at 8:30 a.m. on Friday, April 15, 2005. I don't know if anyone spoke to him or not. This man had no reason to lie.

I think that a person that McKnight knew of witnessed Ray at times when it didn't fit LE's timeline. So I think that LE just gave the public a timeline that LE wanted to give the people for one reason or another. I wonder how much more LE knows that was given to the public. I also feel that when the DA's office had grief counseling, that they knew Ray was dead.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Cinderella
I also feel that when the DA's office had grief counseling, that they knew Ray was dead. [/*]

Who's idea was that "grief counseling"? At that point it would only be odd he hadn't shown up for work on Monday. He might have just gone away for a week-end and not told anyone.

[Cinderella]

I don't know who suggested the grief counseling.

[Serendipitous1]

LEWISBURG — A search Sunday evening along the Susquehanna River and River Road in Lewisburg for skeleton bones reportedly seen by a fisherman earlier in the day yielded nothing, according to state police...authorities plan to search the area again.

http://www.dailyitem.com/0100_news/local_story_231161311.html

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
LEWISBURG — A search Sunday evening along the Susquehanna River and River Road in Lewisburg for skeleton bones reportedly seen by a fisherman earlier in the day yielded nothing, according to state police...authorities plan to search the area again.

http://www.dailyitem.com/0100_news/local_story_231161311.html [/*]

Firefly spoke about bones beginning to be able to see. I wonder if these are it.
This song goes with a possibility.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cA_gIhCcYVk

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
LEWISBURG — A search Sunday evening along the Susquehanna River and River Road in Lewisburg for skeleton bones reportedly seen by a fisherman earlier in the day yielded nothing, according to state police...authorities plan to search the area again.

http://www.dailyitem.com/0100_news/local_story_231161311.html [/*]

Maybe someone wanting the river searched again for RG? S1 are you on the river again?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
LEWISBURG — A search Sunday evening along the Susquehanna River and River Road in Lewisburg for skeleton bones reportedly seen by a fisherman earlier in the day yielded nothing, according to state police...authorities plan to search the area again.

http://www.dailyitem.com/0100_news/local_story_231161311.html [/*]

The area is upstream from the bridge, but it's within about half a mile of where the Mini was found. It's surprising that the cadaver dog would have picked it up, if there is anything there.

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


The area is upstream from the bridge, but it's within about half a mile of where the Mini was found. It's surprising that the cadaver dog would have picked it up, if there is anything there. [/*]

I wonder who the fisherman is? I wonder if these are bones that could have been moved there way after the Cad. dogs was done searching? If the fisherman seen them maybe debrie keeps getting in the way of them being exposed? This is another yet another bizarre thing to arise thru the many. What a mystery, we are on part 2 of bones again except a more likly location.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster


I wonder who the fisherman is? I wonder if these are bones that could have been moved there way after the Cad. dogs was done searching? If the fisherman seen them maybe debrie keeps getting in the way of them being exposed? This is another yet another bizarre thing to arise thru the many. What a mystery, we are on part 2 of bones again except a more likly location. [/*]

Assuming, 1., there are bones, and 2. they are RFG's remains, it would be virtually impossible to have moved them to that location undetected.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by logicworks



Thanks, S1.
Do you happen to know how close that might be to the Hufnagle Park wooden bridge?

Hufnagle Park is located on Market Street in the downtown area. It offers open space, a picnic pavilion, playground equipment and gardens. It is named in honor of former Police Chief Gordon Hufnagle. Chief Hufnagle died saving lives during the Agnes Flood on June 21, 1972. The park is in his honor, as is a footbridge built in 1982. [/*]

River Rd runs in both direction of the Susquehanna River with Water St between them. Also there is a very large Hufnagle Park off the northern end, that end has the bridge that TG and his brother were supposed to have been checking in. Near that island in the Susquehanna.

I did see the little park in the center of town, just off Market St. Is that Hufnagle too? Wonder why they named both parks for the man?

The River Road south of Water St, was where they said the search teams were entering the Susquehanna in 2005, wasn't it? That end of Water St was where one of the people in their 2005 drug bust lived.

If you follow the map, it is very private at that end of River Rd. Not a lot of homes/businesses, more woodsy. Was that end searched for RG in 2005 or only around the Water Street area?

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by sherrijean981
Maybe someone wanting the river searched again for RG? S1 are you on the river again? No, I am not on the river again. It was interesting due to the location, that Lewisburg and the PSP searched for the reported "bones", and that they planned to do another search. It reminded me of the incident (last year?) when a body was found washed up on an island below Lewisburg, which also attracted perhaps more than the usual attention from LE.

You are correct - there is a River Road just north of the SoS. It runs from the upper bridge (over the creek which I previously posted a photo of), north along the river, less than a mile, up to US Route 15. There is also a River Road, south out of Lewisburg, between the river and Bucknell University, which runs about a mile and a half, where it also intersects Route 15.

I cannot tell which River Road area was searched...where "a fisherman said he saw something that looked like bones". But why would this person not confirm "bones" and mark the spot if he intended to call police?...unless contacting them was an afterthought. Anyway, no bones were reported found, so it is possible this fisherman was just mistaken. Although, I am sure there are bones (most likely animal remains) to be found in and along the river, and adjacent flood areas.

According to news articles, LE searched the river banks north and south of the SoS back in 2005. I have no idea if that foot search included dogs. But LE did have a cadaver dog out in a boat on the river back then.

Logicworks: I believe that Market Street park in downtown Lewisburg is about a half mile from the river.

[J. J. in Phila]

Since 2005, and excluding RFG, has there even been a body lost in the Susquehanna in that area that has never been recovered? I can't think of any.

[sherrijean981]

My friend works for DCNR on Rt 45, near Lewisburg. We were having an email conversation and I mentioned RG to here. She said there had been detectives in their office for one reason or another and RG came up in conversation. I found out about the fisherman after that conversation and emailed her back after she said the detectives were in the office. Here is part of her email about their conversation in her office:

Quote:
"The detectives were in here to get DMAP (hunting) coupons. The only reason I know they were detectives is that one of our seasonal rangers works with them in the off-season and he happened to come in when they were here and so they started talking here at the counter. I don’t know their names, or anything. They didn’t mention anything about the search when I brought up the subject, so don’t know. But they did say that it isn’t true that if someone goes in the water their body always shows up sometime. And then they were talking about specific cases where bodies went in and never were seen again. So, who knows?"
Quote


She didn't give me the specifc cases but they had told the ranger and her about them. Guess it does happen.

[Serendipitous1]

There are certainly cases where the river has not given up her dead. But frankly, in all of my searching over the years, I never expected to find RG in the river. I do not believe that is where he ended up, at least initially...unlike the other evidence (which I was also looking for) that, all too conveniently, seemed to appear...as if in a vacuum.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
There are certainly cases where the river has not given up her dead. But frankly, in all of my searching over the years, I never expected to find RG in the river. I do not believe that is where he ended up, at least initially...unlike the other evidence (which I was also looking for) that, all too conveniently, seemed to appear...as if in a vacuum. [/*]

I actually am looking for any cases since 2005. We keep hearing about ones where the body was lost, but I cannot recall one example.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
I actually am looking for any cases since 2005. We keep hearing about ones where the body was lost, but I cannot recall one example. That is because they are seldom mentioned afterwards, unless found. It seems to me there was (for instance) a young man who was seen going in off the Danville bridge after a traffic accident...I am thinking around Thanksgiving 2005...who was never found. OTOH I can site examples back to the 1700's where bodies have turned up later in the Susquehanna.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
That is because they are seldom mentioned afterwards, unless found. It seems to me there was (for instance) a young man who was seen going in off the Danville bridge after a traffic accident...I am thinking around Thanksgiving 2005...who was never found. OTOH I can site examples back to the 1700's where bodies have turned up later in the Susquehanna. [/*]

I'm looking more at the numbers.

I also should have specified those in the Lewisburg area more so than another branch.

To me, it seems that most bodies are found, though I'm sure there are exceptions.

Right now, I have concede that there is low chance that RFG's body is in the Susquehanna.

If there are no new developments, I will be lowering the odds on suicide after Labor Day.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks



The question would not be 'is it possible?' because, of course, it would is. We aren't talking about air lifting or bringing in an 18 wheeler in broad daylight as being necessary for planting bones.



Not without leaving a lot of evidence. It would also be had to reposition them. It would be crystal clear that they were moved.

They have even been able to determine that bodies were reburied literally a thousand years after the fact.




The question would then become 'for what purpose and why, at this time?', which could be for any number of reasons such as......
1. To shut down a troublesome case; suicide would effectively shut it down if there was nothing to prove suicide hadn't occurred.


That would depend on the cause of death. A stab wound, with no knife present, would very likely point away from suicide, for example.


2. For insurance money, if the policy was written at least two years prior to death. It could move the case up from seven years to instead 1/2 of that.


Tony pointed out that they could petition to declare RFG dead at this point. The only thing that insurance would have to do with this would be if it was suicide. Some policies don't pay off on that, and, I believe, the time goes from the time of death, not when the death was reported (the ghost that showed up and handed me a check).


3. To misdirect away from another location that may come under scrutiny if the investigation 'heats' up.


Except, it hasn't heated up. Further, it doesn't misdirect. It eliminates two options, suicide and walkaway.


4. New testing has someone concerned they may be scrutinized more carefully.


So they give LE more evidence? If there is a skeleton and if is RFG, it's been someplace for the last three years. If it wasn't along the river, it was someplace else. It will have traces of that someplace else on it.

I frankly doubt that there is a skeleton, that if it is a skeleton, it's RFG's and that if it was, it was planted. Only a very stupid killer would attempt to plant it, and if RFG was killed, the one thing the was not, it is stupid.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila <Snip>
If there are no new developments, I will be lowering the odds on suicide after Labor Day. Why does it 'seem' that...like for the last year or so...you cannot make a move without PB? More importantly, why is it that PB thinks he has to wait until he leaves to announce his 'opinion' (which would certainly be one more informed than any of us could render) on what did or did not happen to Ray Gricar?

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Why does it 'seem' that...like for the last year or so...you cannot make a move without PB? More importantly, why is it that PB thinks he has to wait until he leaves to announce his 'opinion' (which would certainly be one more informed than any of us could render) on what did or did not happen to Ray Gricar? It is just that, for the longest time, I have not been able to tell where PB leaves off and you begin. Not to worry though...for an equally long time, I have not been able to tell where Buehner leaves off and I begin. I suppose it is a natural phenomenon, given the circumstances of this protracted mystery.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Why does it 'seem' that...like for the last year or so...you cannot make a move without PB? More importantly, why is it that PB thinks he has to wait until he leaves to announce his 'opinion' (which would certainly be one more informed than any of us could render) on what did or did not happen to Ray Gricar? [/*]

It has nothing to do with PB. I posted that a few months ago, IIRC.

I'm basing mine on increased recreational traffic on the Susquehanna and the end of fishing season.

I was also unaware that he was going to "announce" any opinion. He has expressed some opinions to me, as opposed to evidence, over the last year, but we don't necessarily agree. His opinions, like mine, are subject to change. You will remember my reference to The Wreck of the Titian.

Even if PB would announce an opinion regarding the case tomorrow (without any new information), I wouldn't be lowering the odds on suicide until after Labor Day.

[J. J. in Phila]

Just for the record, I'm setting the current odds at:

43% Walkaway

42% Murder

14% Suicide

01% Something else (accident or health problem, kidnapping, amnesia, WPP)

Without any new information, suicide will drop after Labor Day. Murder and Walkaway will increase proportionally.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Assuming, 1., there are bones, and 2. they are RFG's remains, it would be virtually impossible to have moved them to that location undetected. [/*]

Why would it be virtually impossible to have moved the bones to that location, undetected? Maybe they were there all along, since we don't know where exactly LE is searching now. If south of Water St there are roads in and out and many wooded sections with no traffic.

And who would have thought it was virtually impossible for RG to have disappeared without being seen to begin with?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
It is just that, for the longest time, I have not been able to tell where PB leaves off and you begin. Not to worry though...for an equally long time, I have not been able to tell where Buehner leaves off and I begin. I suppose it is a natural phenomenon, given the circumstances of this protracted mystery. [/*]

I like PB, I think he's been a good reporter and an asset to those of us interested in finding out, but I understand something that is lost on most posters. PB is not in LE and can not look at some of the things we'd like to know about.

He has no more access to the PennDOT database than I do.

I don't agree with him on some things, and I've been wrong. I thought there was absolutely no story in 20/20 Vision and told him so (yes, I'd been sitting on it for a few days). There was more of a story there than I thought.

We discuss ideas. Somethings they are correct, sometimes they are not. This has been trial and error.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1

Not to worry though...for an equally long time, I have not been able to tell where Buehner leaves off and I begin.

[/*]

Funny you should say that. After a couple of your postings, from the courthouse fiasco with Buehner, MM and his croonies, and other remarks you made, I actually wondered if you were Buehner. A couple of your statements rang with his words. You were as angry as he was. You have searched the waters in Lewisburg and I could picture him doing the same.

They say we turn into our mates, maybe also the people we hold in high esteem and repeat their words over and over. :D

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


Why would it be virtually impossible to have moved the bones to that location, undetected?


I was waiting for that. :)

There would be too much of a trace that the had been moved. Here is a good example:

http://www.hissheep.org/catholic/the_bones_of_peter.html

In that case, they could determine that the bones had been reburied some 1,400-1,500 years after the fact. The could do that in the late 1950's to early 1960's. (They have not conclusively proved it really was St. Peter.)


Maybe they were there all along, since we don't know where exactly LE is searching now. If south of Water St there are roads in and out and many wooded sections with no traffic.


It was north of Water Street and along the rive. If there had been a body the the cadaver dog should have found it.


And who would have thought it was virtually impossible for RG to have disappeared without being seen to begin with? [/*]

Well, I have thought it was quite possible, even in this day and age, for someone to disappear voluntarily, or for a murder to hide a body for decades, if not forever.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


Funny you should say that. After a couple of your postings, from the courthouse fiasco with Buehner, MM and his croonies, and other remarks you made, I actually wondered if you were Buehner. [/*]

Well, Buehner knows exactly who I am, and it's not PB. :)

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


I was waiting for that. :)

There would be too much of a trace that the had been moved.


It was north of Water Street and along the rive. If there had been a body the the cadaver dog should have found it.

[/*]

I thought you meant the person moving them would be undetected. I understand dirt, bacteria, germs, bugs etc would on hundred year old bones or even 3 year old bones. Can be matched to different areas, soils, rocks, ect. Maybe even small fiber and hairs from the car of the person moving the bones. Or from the person. Now that would have been perfect if hair and a root to it. DNA tested and to a person in the system. I know there are hundreds of tests that can be done on the bones and the soils around the newly planted bones. Even tire and feet tracks can be tested/measured.

The are above the SOS is a short trip along the river. It does have the island across from it. That was the area I questioned TG about and he said he and his brother also had walked it, searching.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Well, Buehner knows exactly who I am, and it's not PB. :) [/*]

I am going to miss Pete and his sense of humor in his stories. I hope he gets Matt Rickard into his last couple stories. Maybe an article on his searches.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


I thought you meant the person moving them would be undetected.
I understand dirt, bacteria, germs, bugs etc would on hundred year old bones or even 3 year old bones. Can be matched to different areas, soils, rocks, ect. Maybe even small fiber and hairs from the car of the person moving the bones. Or from the person. Now that would have been perfect if hair and a root to it. DNA tested and to a person in the system. I know there are hundreds of tests that can be done on the bones and the soils around the newly planted bones. Even tire and feet tracks can be tested/measured.



That's exactly what I've meant. Sure, you dig up three year old remains and dump them in front of the Courthouse and maybe no one would see it. Convincing a forensic team they were there for three years is a lot different. Even an idiot would realize that.


The are above the SOS is a short trip along the river. It does have the island across from it. That was the area I questioned TG about and he said he and his brother also had walked it, searching. [/*]

It would be hard to hide a body there, in the first place. You'd have to carry or boat it across the river and then bury it; then you'd have to do the same things to dig it up.

Planting it there afterward would probably leave clues to where it was for the past three plus years.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


I am going to miss Pete and his sense of humor in his stories. I hope he gets Matt Rickard into his last couple stories. Maybe an article on his searches. [/*]

I know some of the leg work he's done and some of the information he's gotten. Some of it is just ruling things out and that doesn't get published.

I just hope he does a final Gricar information dump for us. There is more out there.

Seriously, he's never mentioned to me about expressing a final opinion.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


That's exactly what I've meant. Sure, you dig up three year old remains and dump them in front of the Courthouse and maybe no one would see it. Convincing a forensic team they were there for three years is a lot different. Even an idiot would realize that.



It would be hard to hide a body there, in the first place. You'd have to carry or boat it across the river and then bury it; then you'd have to do the same things to dig it up.

Planting it there afterward would probably leave clues to where it was for the past three plus years. [/*]

I wasn't so much worried about the island when I questioned TG, more the bridge and creek area going to the park.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


I know some of the leg work he's done and some of the information he's gotten. Some of it is just ruling things out and that doesn't get published.

I just hope he does a final Gricar information dump for us. There is more out there.

Seriously, he's never mentioned to me about expressing a final opinion. [/*]

The last article on his blog was praising the Defense Attornies for the jobs they do.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


I wasn't so much worried about the island when I questioned TG, more the bridge and creek area going to the park. [/*]

It would be the same problem. It is hard to bury a body in a public place, even at night (not to mention the scent trail left). Digging it up creates a similar problem, but you can add a possibly faulty memory and not digging in exactly the right place.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


It would be the same problem. It is hard to bury a body in a public place, even at night (not to mention the scent trail left). Digging it up creates a similar problem, but you can add a possibly faulty memory and not digging in exactly the right place. [/*]

I wasn't even talking about buried bodies, I was wondering if he could have been in the water in that area of the creek, or under brush in that area. If walking along the River Rd maybe just stumbled and fell into it, under it, etc.

Did you know there is also a Senior Citizens Home on River Rd towards Rt 15? I always wondered if he might have signed in there under a different name.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


I wasn't even talking about buried bodies, I was wondering if he could have been in the water in that area of the creek, or under brush in that area. If walking along the River Rd maybe just stumbled and fell into it, under it, etc.



The area was searched reasonably well and the cadaver dog should have easily detected the scent.

There is a very slight chance that RFG just slipped and fell in, possibly hitting his head, or that, while walking along the river, he had a health crisis, e.g. a heart attack, and went into the water. That's in that 1%.

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


The area was searched reasonably well and the cadaver dog should have easily detected the scent.

There is a very slight chance that RFG just slipped and fell in, possibly hitting his head, or that, while walking along the river, he had a health crisis, e.g. a heart attack, and went into the water. That's in that 1%. [/*]
There is no chance on this occurring due to the laptop? And the hard drive. There had to be a reason in itself for Ray to even bring it in the first place. Let me guess he brought the laptop to give it to someone and then he stumbled in the water at 1 percent.:rolleyes:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster

There is no chance on this occurring due to the laptop? And the hard drive. There had to be a reason in itself for Ray to even bring it in the first place. Let me guess he brought the laptop to give it to someone and then he stumbled in the water at 1 percent.:rolleyes: [/*]

The "porn buddy."

RFG arranges with a friend to destroy the laptop if something happens to him. The buddy hears that RFG vanished runs to the house, sees that no one is home, uses a key that RFG gave him/her, and takes it home. After a month or so, the buddy decides to get rid of it (probably checking it first). Buddy removes the drive and tosses both around the last place RFG was seen.

Even knowing the last time the computer was turned on would provide useful evidence in this case.

Any buddy would have to be trusted and loyal friend, and I'd wager that he/she would have checked to see if there was anything that would point to a murder or suicide.

[Cloudbuster]

Ray had no reason to comitt a suicide. He was excited about retirement and was working hard we was told. He had a girlfriend and planned to travel. He also had a vermont trip coming up. He was in the bathroom and even said he couldn't wait. Why bother to be at the CH Thursday night if you plan to exit this lifetime? RG talked supposedly normal to Lara Thursday and even bothered to go to a boring prision board meeting. Those are not signs of someone planning a suicide. I know the man is intelligent but not intelligent enough to even disappear his body in a suicide.

[Cloudbuster]

JJ the porn buddy don't work because being that Ray is missing a porn buddy would hand the laptop over to LE because even the porn buddy would want to help his friend be found. I really don't think Ray would give someone a key to his house to even get the laptop because after all the house is Patty's. Also a porn buddy even if he did all that would not dispose of the laptop out in the open. A friend porn buddy would have burned the da.. thing in a burn barrel so that nobody would know where the laptop was. Why play with the cops by placing the laptop where it was located and why take the drive out??? If Ray would turn up as a victim of foul play do you honestly think the porn buddy would want any connection to that laptop? Especially where it was located? That would make the porn buddy a number one suspect.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
Ray had no reason to comitt a suicide. He was excited about retirement and was working hard we was told. He had a girlfriend and planned to travel. He also had a vermont trip coming up. He was in the bathroom and even said he couldn't wait. Why bother to be at the CH Thursday night if you plan to exit this lifetime? RG talked supposedly normal to Lara Thursday and even bothered to go to a boring prision board meeting. Those are not signs of someone planning a suicide. I know the man is intelligent but not intelligent enough to even disappear his body in a suicide. [/*]

Leaving his job, reaching a certain age, acting oddly, going off by himself (on 4/14), the family history, It's possible.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
JJ the porn buddy don't work because being that Ray is missing a porn buddy would hand the laptop over to LE because even the porn buddy would want to help his friend be found.


The buddy checked it, and possibly had time to look through it, check the surfing records, see the last time it was used, and see if there is any connection to a murder.

If it hasn't been used fro a while, it doesn't.


I really don't think Ray would give someone a key to his house to even get the laptop because after all the house is Patty's.


Of course he would, the buddy is trusted and loyal, or he/she wouldn't be the buddy.


Also a porn buddy even if he did all that would not dispose of the laptop out in the open. A friend porn buddy would have burned the da.. thing in a burn barrel so that nobody would know where the laptop was.


Serial numbers, remember? Buddy is really not trying to misdirect anyone, so he tosses it near where RFG was last seen.


Why play with the cops by placing the laptop where it was located and why take the drive out???


Buddy isn't playing. He waits a reasonable time for RFG to come back and he looks for anything on where RFG or what happened to him.


If Ray would turn up as a victim of foul play do you honestly think the porn buddy would want any connection to that laptop? Especially where it was located? That would make the porn buddy a number one suspect. [/*]

Same reason as above. Buddy doesn't find anything and keeps his/her promise to RFG.

[day2day]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Why does it 'seem' that...like for the last year or so...you cannot make a move without PB? More importantly, why is it that PB thinks he has to wait until he leaves to announce his 'opinion' (which would certainly be one more informed than any of us could render) on what did or did not happen to Ray Gricar? [/*]

I could answer this..but i don't wanna seem "fool-ish"...:seeya:
Happy Saturday S1...hope you are enjoying the last days of summer!

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by day2day


I could answer this..but i don't wanna seem "fool-ish"...:seeya:


It is far too late for that. :)

I have not heard a darned thing about PB planning to announce his opinion.

[day2day]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


It is far too late for that. :)

I have not heard a darned thing about PB planning to announce his opinion. [/*]

jj you are a funny funny man!! The only fool-ish thing i have done is spend manyyyyyyyy hours HERE trying to figure out what happened to a man i have never met!!
hammer

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by day2day


jj you are a funny funny man!! The only fool-ish thing i have done is spend manyyyyyyyy hours HERE trying to figure out what happened to a man i have never met!!
hammer [/*]

That is quite debatable, but most of the folks here have never met RFG. hammer

As to PB planning to give an opinion, he has never stated, to me at least, that he was planning to give one.

S1 asked why PB is waiting to offer an opinion, and, so far as I know, he's not planning to offer one. We've talked, and there is daylight between the two of us on the subject.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks


According to Mapquest, it is within short walking distance from both the SOS and OB/GYN, nutrition/exercise/midwife, which I continue to believe was his purpose that day. The exercise tape by the passenger side lends toward his having met with someone regarding same. He would have likely had the laptop with him if walking there, possibly stopping at Hufnagle on his way or upon return. He could have made a 'pit' stop there, if the park has restrooms open to the public. I don't believe whatever happened was at the SOS lot, or that his laptop was later removed from the car.


I would be very suspicious of RFG if he were attempting to talk with a potential witness:

1. outside of the Courthouse.

2. completely unscheduled and hidden from the DA's Office.

3. In person, as opposed to phone, email, or letter.

You are entering the Nifong Zone, especially since RFG got into trouble for talking to another expert witness (his only quasi-disciplinary action).

An standard exercise tape would also have virtually no relevance to an OB/GYN.

Further, the Vargas case was one of pathologists, not midwives. It doesn't deal with the action of a midwife. Unless the midwife was actually treating the Vargas family, it would not be relevant.



The possibility exists for such to arrive there either as the result of a washdown from further up the creek near deeper wooded park area or as the result of a scavenger using nearby water....racoons will both dig for and take what they find to water to wash, leaving bones behind, which could then wash downstream.


They also gnaw on them, leaving teethmarks, as would a dog or a rat. That would be detectable.

The cadaver dog should have detected a scent, if it was there.

We also don't have a human skeleton as of yet. So all of this is kind of mute. The fisherman might have seen the remains of a deer.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


The "porn buddy."

RFG arranges with a friend to destroy the laptop if something happens to him. The buddy hears that RFG vanished runs to the house, sees that no one is home, uses a key that RFG gave him/her, and takes it home. After a month or so, the buddy decides to get rid of it (probably checking it first). Buddy removes the drive and tosses both around the last place RFG was seen.

Even knowing the last time the computer was turned on would provide useful evidence in this case.

Any buddy would have to be trusted and loyal friend, and I'd wager that he/she would have checked to see if there was anything that would point to a murder or suicide. [/*]

If they didn't want it found, no connections, then WHY throw it in where RG was supposedly seen the last time? Why not the computer in some other river, the harddrive in the trash? Or vice versa? Or bury them somewhere? Separate?

Makes no sense to put them where he was last seen, knowing there are people out there looking for anything to connect to Ray. And the laptop and hard drive which might have info on it!

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Leaving his job, reaching a certain age, acting oddly, going off by himself (on 4/14), the family history, It's possible. [/*]

Little late in life to do the Male Menopause thing. From the men I have seen go through it, that happens between 40 and 50. And his marrying EG was the first sign of that. Someone totally different from him, more socialable, liking to go dancing, etc. That ended rather expensibly for him. Sounded more like he was ready to settle down but was ready to go through with his dream retirement plans for traveling and seeing certain areas.

Too many people have said he was happy and excited with his retirement plans and he told too many people PF was included in those plans.

I also think the reason he moved PF into his office is because her life might have been threatened due to her job, or what he found out about someone or something.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


That is quite debatable, but most of the folks here have never met RFG. hammer

As to PB planning to give an opinion, he has never stated, to me at least, that he was planning to give one.

S1 asked why PB is waiting to offer an opinion, and, so far as I know, he's not planning to offer one. We've talked, and there is daylight between the two of us on the subject. [/*]

JJ you know PB would not leave the area without telling us what his true feelings are on this case. He works for the CDT and does crime reporting but that doesn't mean he agrees with what "they" tell him about the case. He has opinions on this case the same as any of us, but less of an opportunity to say what he thinks. Remember how the news papers always saying it isn't their opinion, just the facts.

I am looking forward to the day PB comes forward and tells us what he truly feels. That day will happen!

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


Little late in life to do the Male Menopause thing. From the men I have seen go through it, that happens between 40 and 50. And his marrying EG was the first sign of that. Someone totally different from him, more socialable, liking to go dancing, etc. That ended rather expensibly for him. Sounded more like he was ready to settle down but was ready to go through with his dream retirement plans for traveling and seeing certain areas.



Not trying to recapture his youth, but a life ending thing. It is possible, though I give it lower odds than the other option and plan to lower those odds after Labor Day.


Too many people have said he was happy and excited with his retirement plans and he told too many people PF was included in those plans.


Except for that last few weeks to a month, by nearly all accounts.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


JJ you know PB would not leave the area without telling us what his true feelings are on this case. He works for the CDT and does crime reporting but that doesn't mean he agrees with what "they" tell him about the case. He has opinions on this case the same as any of us, but less of an opportunity to say what he thinks. Remember how the news papers always saying it isn't their opinion, just the facts.


First, PB does more, as can be seen from his reporting, that what they tell him to do.

Second, I am unaware of any plan on PB's part to reveal his "true feelings." I would love to see a final story, but none has been promised, expressed or implied.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

Except for that last few weeks to a month, by nearly all accounts. [/*]

No one has ever said he still wasn't looking forward to retirement during that time. By most accounts he was still counting down the days, looking forward to he and PF going across the US. Reports of that came from a waitress at the Gamble Mill, employees at the CH, his friends and his nephew.

The only thing I have seen that he might have been dealing with, was when the reporter told him JKA was running for DA, and he seemed shocked or wordless to it.

Then the Vargas case, a car accident that a death was involved, "maybe" some fallout from the drug bust and maybe something he ran into somewhere that he shouldn't have seen.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by logicworks


It gets quite confusing with a description of one park at the other end of town and mapquest showing a second. I was referring to the one closest to the SOS, showing Hufnagle Blvd. as being the main road into the park.

http://www.mapquest.com/maps?city=Lewisburg&state=PA&address=100+North+Water+Street [/*]

Ok, this is also the one I had questioned TG about whether it was searched. So we are on the same page. I am lookoing now for the pile of rocks you are talking about. I get up to the 2nd level on the map before it won't bring it up higher. Darn!

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


No one has ever said he still wasn't looking forward to retirement during that time. By most accounts he was still counting down the days, looking forward to he and PF going across the US. Reports of that came from a waitress at the Gamble Mill, employees at the CH, his friends and his nephew.


But he was by all accounts, acting differently those last one to five weeks. It's enough to say that it is possible, though I would say its the least unlikely scenario (and I'll probably be lowering the odds soon).


The only thing I have seen that he might have been dealing with, was when the reporter told him JKA was running for DA, and he seemed shocked or wordless to it.


The Shotts comment, a day before, JKA's comments. RFG being tired. I'm almost playing Devil's Advocate here. If RFG killed himself, he obviously couldn't hide his body after the fact. :(

BTW, I hit a number again. The Amasing Krizwell strikes again. :)

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


But he was by all accounts, acting differently those last one to five weeks. It's enough to say that it is possible, though I would say its the least unlikely scenario (and I'll probably be lowering the odds soon).



The Shotts comment, a day before, JKA's comments. RFG being tired. I'm almost playing Devil's Advocate here. If RFG killed himself, he obviously couldn't hide his body after the fact. :(

BTW, I hit a number again. The Amasing Krizwell strikes again. :) [/*]

I am going to go out on a limb here and say he probably was tired. Physically and mentally tired from his job!! One that was not a 40 hour job and one he worked at all day and into the evenings. That is why he was going to retire. He was ready to retire. He was tired.

I am sitting here watching my 60 year old husband sleeping at 4:30 in the afternoon because he is tired. Stress from work, having a very energetic 4 year old for the weekend, but it doesn't mean he is going to take off or committ suicide.

Shotts's comments were only that he wouldn't be there in the fall when the judge wanted to schedule the case. He goes on vacation at that time to Vermont. He also would probably have had extra sick time and vacation time he could use up before he started his retirement. It might have even been a "ha ha" moment to be able to say he wasn't going to be there. Wouldn't have to deal with them anymore.

As to the Vargas case. If it had anything to do with it, someone got Ray out of there because he would have found the guy guilty of murder. If RG had enough to get the judge to jail the guy for it, he would have won that case! It was others in the office that fell down on the job and were not quite the DA that RG was.
JMO

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


BTW, I hit a number again. The Amasing Krizwell strikes again. :) [/*]

What does this mean? Another SS #?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


What does this mean? Another SS #? [/*]

Lotto. Fourth time in 21 draws.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


I am going to go out on a limb here and say he probably was tired. Physically and mentally tired from his job!! One that was not a 40 hour job and one he worked at all day and into the evenings. That is why he was going to retire. He was ready to retire. He was tired.


It might have been, or not. There was also his attitude and interaction. It's not a lot, but it's still possible.


I am sitting here watching my 60 year old husband sleeping at 4:30 in the afternoon because he is tired. Stress from work, having a very energetic 4 year old for the weekend, but it doesn't mean he is going to take off or committ suicide.

[/quote]
As to the Vargas case. If it had anything to do with it, someone got Ray out of there because he would have found the guy guilty of murder. If RG had enough to get the judge to jail the guy for it, he would have won that case! It was others in the office that fell down on the job and were not quite the DA that RG was.
JMO [/*][/QUOTE]

I seriously doubt it, looking at the case. Marshall, who was the prosecutor and second chair while RFG was there, said the death penalty was a "stretch."

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Lotto. Fourth time in 21 draws. [/*]

Congratulations!! Lucky you!

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


If they didn't want it found, no connections, then WHY throw it in where RG was supposedly seen the last time? Why not the computer in some other river, the harddrive in the trash? Or vice versa? Or bury them somewhere? Separate?



In case it was found, doing it that way has the advantage of not leading LE to another location. Removing the drive makes it harder to be found, and lets tthe drive be exposed directly to water.

Now, I think it's 70-80 unlikely but it is possible.

[sherrijean981]

We had talked about this case a couple months ago. They originally would not give the name of the man they wanted to do DNA on. That name is listed today, but it is in our Sentinel in Lewistown. Not Centre County. WTAJ-TV, Johnstown had run the story with names and a copy of the warrant for DNA.

The man listed is still living in Centre County.



http://lewistownsentinel.com/page/content.detail/id/508764.html?nav=5010

Quote
"MIFFLINTOWN — A man serving a life sentence on a second degree murder conviction wants a new trial because lab results from DNA evidence in the case allegedly exclude him from being involved."
Quote

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981
We had talked about this case a couple months ago. They originally would not give the name of the man they wanted to do DNA on. That name is listed today, but it is in our Sentinel in Lewistown. Not Centre County. WTAJ-TV, Johnstown had run the story with names and a copy of the warrant for DNA.

The man listed is still living in Centre County.



http://lewistownsentinel.com/page/content.detail/id/508764.html?nav=5010

Quote
"MIFFLINTOWN — A man serving a life sentence on a second degree murder conviction wants a new trial because lab results from DNA evidence in the case allegedly exclude him from being involved."
Quote [/*]

Interesting, but RFG was good with using DNA to prosecute. It would have been to claim it couldn't exonerate.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by logicworks <Snips>
Buffalo Creek appears to run the entire length at the rear of the park. Do you know how extensively Hufnagle Park and Buffalo Creek area, or wooded area directly behind the park were searched? Or exactly how close to where the mouth of Buffalo Creek washes down into the Susquehanna, the bone(s) were said to have been seen? I do not know whether that area was extensively searched, or whether dogs (tracking or cadaver) were used. I remember walking along the creek (between it and the ball fields) and around to the wooded area, back in April '05. I do not remember seeing anything back there except trees, brush and small drainage ditches. I did find a couple of wayward softballs...which I deposited in the dugout. But it is more of a dead end area then a "short cut" to anywhere.

Some seem to assume the reported "bones" were spotted near River Road, north of the SoS. I believe it could have been the River Road south out of Lewisburg. The article did not specify the township, IIRC.

Originally posted by logicworks
On the GIS map on the parcel # for Hufnagle Park, I just found what appears to be a string of large round rocks piled up on the side of a bank and below it is woods and water. It is in back of what appears to be a big field on the left side of the parcel. Do you happen to know if those are indeed rocks or are they something 'other than'? Do you happen to know what that area of water below is called or does it even have a name? Does it run off or is it simply a borough holding pond? Where does the water originate from? I do not know for certain, but if you are referring to the 6 or 7 large circular features in the aerial photo west of the end of Hufnagle Blvd, to me they look like stockpiles...some or all of them covered...along a haul road (not water) -- perhaps the borough's stockpiles of road salt, etc.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
[
Some seem to assume the reported "bones" were spotted near River Road, north of the SoS. I believe it could have been the River Road south out of Lewisburg. The article did not specify the township, IIRC.


I looked at my maps. There is a railroad or railroad bed that runs south of Lewisburg (I think that is beyond the borough boundary). It is between the Susquehanna and River Road south of Lewisburg. They didn't mention the railroad so I'm guessing that it isn't in the south.

North, River Road borders the Susquehanna directly. They article noted that searching along River Road. Granted, it could have been bad reporting.

[J. J. in Phila]

I think it's the Union County Industrial Railroad.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Interesting, but RFG was good with using DNA to prosecute. It would have been to claim it couldn't exonerate. [/*]

I know this case was listed in the CDT a couple months ago but I am not sure if RG ever heard about it, or was involved in it. Unless McCauley sent him a letter from prison. I didn't notice if he is in Rockview or not.

His case was handled in Juniata County by this newspaper article. I wonder why he has a different attorney than the one who filed for the DNA to be tested?

The DNA found was not his, but from 2 other people. You would think he would get time served and released with just what is reported.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


I know this case was listed in the CDT a couple months ago but I am not sure if RG ever heard about it, or was involved in it. Unless McCauley sent him a letter from prison. I didn't notice if he is in Rockview or not.


Oh, I though possibly the crime occurred in Centre County. I checked again and it didn't.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
I looked at my maps. There is a railroad or railroad bed that runs south of Lewisburg (I think that is beyond the borough boundary). It is between the Susquehanna and River Road south of Lewisburg. They didn't mention the railroad so I'm guessing that it isn't in the south.

North, River Road borders the Susquehanna directly. They article noted that searching along River Road. Granted, it could have been bad reporting. Well, you made it seem like a statement of fact, when I knew it was not (unless you had some inside information). You know what they say about when we assume...it makes an *** out of U and ME. But you are correct on the major point -- the whole thing is moot (or mute, as you prefer), since there is no bone reported found. I really posted the article link only because it, once again, pointed to LE's apparent sensitivity toward potential evidence in the Lewisburg area.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Well, you made it seem like a statement of fact, when I knew it was not (unless you had some inside information). You know what they say about when we assume...it makes an *** out of U and ME. But you are correct on the major point -- the whole thing is moot (or mute, as you prefer), since there is no bone reported found. I really posted the article link only because it, once again, pointed to LE's apparent sensitivity toward potential evidence in the Lewisburg area. [/*]

Except, it seems to point to the area to the north of Lewisburg, not to the south.

Three points, that area is actually outside of Lewisburg, neighborhood name is "College Park," (or perhaps the "area around Bucknell campus") and River Road doesn't border the Susquehanna in the south. Now, it could have been bad reporting.

Process of elimination, or my grand psychic ability. ;)

In any event, no bones.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
Except, it seems to point to the area to the north of Lewisburg, not to the south.

Three points, that area is actually outside of Lewisburg, neighborhood name is "College Park," (or perhaps the "area around Bucknell campus") and River Road doesn't border the Susquehanna in the south. Now, it could have been bad reporting.

Process of elimination, or my grand psychic ability. ;)

In any event, no bones. Bad assumption, if you ask me...except for the "bad reporting" part. Most reporting lacks the specificity amateur sleuthers are so keen on. You are not psychic...or much of a geographer for that matter. There is no River Road within the Borough of Lewisburg. But we agree...in any event, no bones (reportedly found).

I bid you adieu for now, so that you might have that seemingly all-important "last word".

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Bad assumption, if you ask me...except for the "bad reporting" part. Most reporting lacks the specificity amateur sleuthers are so keen on. You are not psychic...or much of a geographer for that matter. There is no River Road within the Borough of Lewisburg.


Actually there is, in the south, behind the University. Problem is, it's a block inland from the river; Brown Street runs between that and the Susquehanna.
It's on there zoning map, but not labled; it's the last street Malcome crosses on the way toward the river. The street that turns right of Malcome is Brown:

http://www.lewisburgborough.org/images/zoningmaplarge.jpg

Something tells me that if there bones on a street in an area zoned "Residential Town" someone other than a fisherman will spot them, well before they become bones. :)

The only place that I can find where River Street is actually by the River is north where St. Anthony Street changes its name to Water Street. That's just across the Borough line.

River Road continues south, but it isn't next to the river.

That kind of limits the location to the north part of River Road.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Oh, I though possibly the crime occurred in Centre County. I checked again and it didn't. [/*]

Part of the crime was committed in Centre County. She was picked up near Boalsburg. She was raped near the Ski Mont area outside Boalsburg and no one knows exactly where she was murdered. But she was thrown over the bridge at Thompsontown, in Juniata County.

McCauly being from Centre County and RG the DA in that county at the time McCauley was trying to have the DNA tested, would he have tried to seek help from RG in a letter? If he is in Rockview, would the Centre County DA even have been of any help?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


Part of the crime was committed in Centre County. She was picked up near Boalsburg. She was raped near the Ski Mont area outside Boalsburg and no one knows exactly where she was murdered. But she was thrown over the bridge at Thompsontown, in Juniata County.

McCauly being from Centre County and RG the DA in that county at the time McCauley was trying to have the DNA tested, would he have tried to seek help from RG in a letter? If he is in Rockview, would the Centre County DA even have been of any help? [/*]

I'm not sure if, in 1989, they were using DNA in the state, or using it widely. I think the first case, nationally, was in the mid to late 1980's. Unless the case was actually handled by the Centre County DA's Office in 1989, they wouldn't be involved.

[Serendipitous1]

2/21/08 - the House Judiciary Committee public hearing on law enforcement powers for sheriffs. David Freed, Cumberland County DA, speaking on behalf of the Executive Committee of the Pennsylvania District Attorneys Association:

"Obviously you heard from one of our members, my colleague and friend, Bob Buehner, earlier, and I will respond to some of the things that Bob had to say. Like any good prosecutor, I provided Bob with my evidence in advance of the hearing. So we're used to responding in kind, however. But I think you'll actually find areas of agreement between our positions and certainly we're good friends and Bob is an effective advocate on behalf of his citizens and certainly the sheriffs here today."...

..."Some district attorneys have formed task forces and have elected to include municipal officers, sheriffs, and deputy sheriffs by cross-designating them as county detectives with full police powers." [as a way around the law and recent PA Supreme Court decisions]...

..."...as a prosecutor, sometimes you have to -- you have to try things. As long as it's within the bounds of discretion and the ethical rules, you know, you have to do what you need to do to get the job done." [emphasis added]

http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/tr/transcripts/2008_0022T.pdf [Good reading...Sheetz also spoke, on behalf of Corbett, after first mocking Buehner's presentation...go figure]

7/3/08 (CDT) - "Prosecutors speak out in support of Madeira"...voicing "their displeasure with Buehner for going outside 'the family'". David Freed, Cumberland County DA and member of the Executive Committee of the Pennsylvania District Attorneys Association...regarding his good friend, Bob Buehner, doing what he had to do to try and get the job done:

". . . . . . . . ."...silence!

On friendships and loyalties (which seem to be mutually exclusive within the PDAA Executive Committee), it seems to come down to: "Which side are you on boys...which side are you on?"

[J. J. in Phila]

S1, you've lost me on any relevance, especially since they are discussing arrest powers of sheriffs.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
S1, you've lost me on any relevance, especially since they are discussing arrest powers of sheriffs. It was an aside...to (once again) show the PDAA Executive Committee (and the AG's office, for that matter) to be what they are in regard to the investigation of Ray Gricar's disappearance...a wholly useless, good-ole-boys club, unrepresentative of the majority of prosecutors in PA, but ever ready to unfurl their misguided wrath on a "whistleblower". Cut the head off that snake, and it dies.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
It was an aside...to (once again) show the PDAA Executive Committee (and the AG's office, for that matter) to be what they are in regard to the investigation of Ray Gricar's disappearance...a wholly useless, good-ole-boys club, unrepresentative of the majority of prosecutors in PA, but ever ready to unfurl their misguided wrath on a "whistleblower". Cut the head off that snake, and it dies. [/*]

Sorry, but it didn't at all like that.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
Sorry, but it didn't at all like that. Huh? It 'didn't at all like' what? . . . . . Nevermind. My current "signature" reflects what I perceive to be the essence of Buehner's frustration...with complacency, misplaced loyalty, political expediency, and the good-ole-boy mentality...but only that which was fit to print (there is more that has not been published). But even that only begins to touch upon the reality of the "deck" which has been stacked against solving this mystery...from the get-go.

The state, by its elected LE officer, quite apparently has no interest whatsoever in trying to solve this case. And Ray Gricar's long and distinguished service, as a prosecutor of some of the state's most heinous criminals, has not gotten even a footnote from the people in power...the people who could have (and should have) made a difference.

Morganelli may come too late...if he comes at all. But hey, it would be refreshing if someone at the state level was actually concerned enough to try. And though the point of your last post may be lost in its missing word(s), your gist is clear enough...and it does not concern me in the least...sorry.

You have often said how there is no history of violence against prosecutors. But is there a history of suicide among prosecutors, or a history of prosecutors in office disappearing themselves?

[Serendipitous1]

You have it right, logicworks. There are 67 county DAs (not to mention a whole posse of Centre County ADAs) who absolutely know (or should know) how sad this investigation has been...and who to blame. And yet, there is only one...just one current DA to stand up and say what needed to be said.

[J. J. in Phila]

Sorry, but I've yet to see a connection between this case and if sheriffs should have arrest powers.

Originally posted by Serendipitous1

The state, by its elected LE officer, quite apparently has no interest whatsoever in trying to solve this case. And Ray Gricar's long and distinguished service, as a prosecutor of some of the state's most heinous criminals, has not gotten even a footnote from the people in power...the people who could have (and should have) made a difference.


I agree, but it's the linkage, or lack there of.


Morganelli may come too late...if he comes at all.


I have very little faith in JM; he seems to tell people what they want to hear. I have even less faith that the issue will move too many votes. My vote, yes, it could. My next door neighbor's. I doubt it. I'm not happy about that, but I think that's an accurate statement.


You have often said how there is no history of violence against prosecutors. But is there a history of suicide among prosecutors,


Yes, there is. And there is, unfortunately, a family link to suicides.


or a history of prosecutors in office disappearing themselves?


Prosecutors, no. People in law enforcement, Mel Wiley, yes. People holding positions of responsibility, Jay Carsey, yes.

The CIA was probably correct in the "no inherent risk" comment. That said, that would not preclude the "slow burn" from someone associated with a past case or someone with a mental disorder.

[Serendipitous1]

I am not surprised by any of the above...since it has no foundation. I am not here to lead horses to water. I expect they will find it on their own.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
I am not surprised by any of the above...since it has no foundation. I am not here to lead horses to water. I expect they will find it on their own. [/*]

I think your horse might not like the taste of the water.

There actually is foundation, unfortunately.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
I think your horse might not like the taste of the water. There actually is foundation, unfortunately. Do tell...I can hardly wait. What is it that you and PB cooked up?

[Serendipitous1]

Don't make me stay up.............oh, nevermind. I'm going to bed.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Do tell...I can hardly wait. What is it that you and PB cooked up? [/*]

I don't have any plans cooked up, but I might post some new things after PB leaves the scene.

As you well know, we have discussed some aspects of the case.

[Cinderella]

Who did PF replace in the DA office, does anyone know?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella
Who did PF replace in the DA office, does anyone know? [/*]

As a WVA?

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


As a WVA? [/*]


NO in the new position that she took in the DA's office in January 2005.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella



NO in the new position that she took in the DA's office in January 2005. [/*]

It was listed as, "a neighbor of Ray's who had a domestic violence counseling background. "

http://gricar.disappearance.googlepages.com/gricardisappearance

[UndertheRadar]

I think Cind wants to know who had the *clerical* position in the DA's office before PF took that post in Jan. 2005.

The neighbor with the background in domestic violence took over for PF's slot as VWA.

[J. J. in Phila]

I only know, according to JKA, that it was vacant for about a month.

[UndertheRadar]

Earth to J.J.! :D

The **VWA position** which PF left was vacant for about a month.

But it's the **clerk position** PF took Cind is asking about. Who was in that position before PF took it?

[J. J. in Phila]

According to JKA, it was the clerical position. From the same source:

"Around the end of January, 2005, Ray announced to the staff that she was leaving the position to take a clerical position which had been vacated at the end of the previous year by another employee. "

The VWA position was filled 3-4 weeks after that, according to JKA.

Clerical position vacated 12/04.

PEF takes it around 1/31/05. Leaves VWA position at the same time.

Late 2/05, VWA position filled by a neighbor of RFG's.

http://gricar.disappearance.googlepages.com/gricardisappearance

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
According to JKA, it was the clerical position. From the same source:

"Around the end of January, 2005, Ray announced to the staff that she was leaving the position to take a clerical position which had been vacated at the end of the previous year by another employee. "

The VWA position was filled 3-4 weeks after that, according to JKA.

Clerical position vacated 12/04.

PEF takes it around 1/31/05. Leaves VWA position at the same time.

Late 2/05, VWA position filled by a neighbor of RFG's.

http://gricar.disappearance.googlepages.com/gricardisappearance [/*]

JJ, Cind still wants to know who the person was that held the "clerk" job "BEFORE" Patty took that job. Who was PF replacing in the "clerk" position?

[UndertheRadar]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


JJ, Cind still wants to know who the person was that held the "clerk" job "BEFORE" Patty took that job. Who was PF replacing in the "clerk" position?

Hope you have better luck than I've had, SJ!

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by UndertheRadar


Hope you have better luck than I've had, SJ! [/*]

He isn't understanding tonight, is he?

JJ, are you okay?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


JJ, Cind still wants to know who the person was that held the "clerk" job "BEFORE" Patty took that job. Who was PF replacing in the "clerk" position? [/*]

I don't have the names of either who had the clerk position prior to PEF, the person who left in 12/04, or the name of the person who filled the VWA position in late 2/05, only the times that those positions were filled, according to JKA.

[J. J. in Phila]

PB's last blog.

http://community.centredaily.com/?q=node/5725#comment-7462

He might continue something on RFG.

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
PB's last blog.

http://community.centredaily.com/?q=node/5725#comment-7462

He might continue something on RFG. [/*]
Im glad to see that he might continue with the case !!!:)

[Cloudbuster]

This part of Karens manuscript is interesting because so early as sunday on the 17th of April 2 days after Ray disappeared the focus of the investagation involved the RELATIONSHIP of PF and RG. It also focuses on the MW that Karen knew. I think this is why the family seemed prone to walk away. LG's plea including PF's plea was to a man that they assummed coud return. Read this carefully:

On Sunday, April 17, 2005, I had still not heard back from Mr. Smith and decided to drive to Lewisburg to talk with personnel there. I was made aware that the Mini-Cooper, when first opened, had had a strong odor of cigarette smoke. I recall remarking that this was certainly a 'red flag' as something unusual, as Ray was well-known to dislike smoking, and it was hard to picture him allowing anyone under any circumstances to smoke inside his car. I was asked about Ray's live-in relationship and indicated that I knew little about it.




Ray's absence at that point was to my perception clearly being theorized to be volitional and likely in the company of an individual personally known to me to have had a long-standing friendship and admiration for him, and to be a smoker. It was not suggested to me then, nor have I ever heard it suggested at any time since, that the relationship had evolved to a romantic one. I did not know at that time why this particular individual had become an early focus, and assumed at the time that perhaps other longer-term DA staff who would also have been aware of the friendship had mentioned it. This individual's description would be generally consistent with that offered of the ‘mystery woman’ in media during the past year. I recall nothing said that would have suggested that Ray and this individual had been seen together, during that weekend or at any other time.

http://gricar.disappearance.googlepages.com/gricardisappearance

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
PB's last blog.
http://community.centredaily.com/?q=node/5725#comment-7462
He might continue something on RFG. I read that. And I was going to post something (had it typed 3 times...from different perspectives). But I am not going to say a word except, good luck in NC, PB...hope to hear from you.

[J. J. in Phila]

PEF's holds out hope that RFG is out there, according to the Daily Item comment. TG has not ruled out a voluntary departure.

A number of the people associated with RFG thought, and think, it is a possibility. He did have an interest in several cases where people left voluntarily.

It is "in character" for RFG to have left voluntarily, to the extent that those know him consider it a possibility. It's not based on wishful thinking, but on comments he made, some of which were reported.

That certainly doesn't prove he did walk away, but it is one of the reasons it's being considered. It's not enough for me to say he walked away. Even looking at the stuff that hasn't been reported, I would not be moving the odds tremendously in favor of walkaway.

[puzzled]

Hey JJ what is a pike? I hope you have a great weekend.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by puzzled
Hey JJ what is a pike? I hope you have a great weekend. [/*]

A pike is a very long, metal tipped spear.

I will be doing little this weekend.

[Cloudbuster]

Here is a nice tour of photos of Lewiburg:
http://www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/marsh/lewisburg_tour/Intro.htm
If you click the (next) button at the bottom of the pages you will continue to see photo's.

If you want to see a bigger picture of the photo then click on it.
Enjoy :) There are some maps too.

[J. J. in Phila]

The new odds are:

Walkaway: 45%
Murder: 44%
Suicide: 10%
Something Else: 1%

This represents the failure to find any remains in the Susquehanna.

When I started (excluding "something else"), I gave walkaway, murder, and suicide equal chances.

The only real reduction has been in suicide. The odds on murder and walkaway have both gone up, with walkaway going up only slightly in comparison to murder.

[gstickley]

"Something else"???

. . . beamed up by aliens?
. . . never existed, only a figment of everyone's imagination?
. . . became invisible & is still there?
. . . kidnapped by gypsies?
. . . had a quickie sex change operation & is now Rayla Grican?
. . . evaporated into thin air?
. . . held captive in the attic so he couldn't leave?

The possibilities of "something else" are endless . . .

Actually, "something else" makes about as much sense as "walkaway".

JMO

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by gstickley
"Something else"???

. . . beamed up by aliens?
. . . never existed, only a figment of everyone's imagination?
. . . became invisible & is still there?
. . . kidnapped by gypsies?
. . . had a quickie sex change operation & is now Rayla Grican?
. . . evaporated into thin air?
. . . held captive in the attic so he couldn't leave?

The possibilities of "something else" are endless . . .

Actually, "something else" makes about as much sense as "walkaway".

JMO [/*]

No more like realistic things.

*RFG was walking along the river, slipped, and fell on hitting his head in the process. He drowned and the body wasn't recovered.

*RFG was walking along the river, had a heart attack or stroke. He fell in. The body wasn't recovered.

*It's rare, but it does happen. RFG could have had some type of amnesia or something along those lines.

*He's been kidnapped, perhaps by a deranged person that admires him. Again rare, but a possibility.

All those things are rare, and 99% unlikely, but together, they add up to about 1%.

As for walkaway, it's much more solid.

[Cinderella]

J. J. what is the reasoning about giving walkaway more than a murder. How do you figure that? :shrug:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella
J. J. what is the reasoning about giving walkaway more than a murder. How do you figure that? :shrug: [/*]

1. A lot interest in walkaway on the part of RFG, some of which has been reported.

2. Lower than expected assets. No "loose ends" financially.

3. Absolutely no evidence of a crime.

4. Both the Fenton/Grine and Wilkes-Barre sightings. There is a little more to the Wilkes-Barre sighting than meets the eye.

[Cloudbuster]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


1. A lot interest in walkaway on the part of RFG, some of which has been reported.

2. Lower than expected assets. No "loose ends" financially.

3. Absolutely no evidence of a crime.

4. Both the Fenton/Grine and Wilkes-Barre sightings. There is a little more to the Wilkes-Barre sighting than meets the eye. [/*][/QUOTe

If there is more to the Wilkes Barre sighting you should say what it is. I have studied my tape for so long it would help me to know what some parts mean. If you can't say it on here please say it privatly then. Maybe then we might know some more things that could help.

[puzzled]

Sorry JJ but I just have to say this. You need to switch to decaf! Everything adds up to a crime. You are delusional if you truly believe in your heart that a crime was not committed against Ray. Clearly there was a crime...a set up most likely ...and we all know that Ray is no longer with us as a result. All the evidence points to these facts. The miserable MM, TC and hopeless "police work" have lead to nowhere. I just pray that in the event that they can glean some info from the hard drive that they will KNOW what to do with it! Can you say the word CORRUPTION?:D

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by puzzled
Sorry JJ but I just have to say this. You need to switch to decaf! Everything adds up to a crime. You are delusional if you truly believe in your heart that a crime was not committed against Ray. Clearly there was a crime...a set up most likely ...and we all know that Ray is no longer with us as a result. All the evidence points to these facts. The miserable MM, TC and hopeless "police work" have lead to nowhere. I just pray that in the event that they can glean some info from the hard drive that they will KNOW what to do with it! Can you say the word CORRUPTION?:D [/*]

My worry is WHO gets the results if something is found on the hard drive? How do we know the info will ever reach the news about what is on the drive? We don't know who, if anyone, was involved in his disappearance, which could include anyone in LE, In high Centre County Courthouse positions, friends, family, co-workers, etc.

I just pray they find something that could tell us something to lead to the finding of RG, but that it goes to the right hands to handle it.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by puzzled
Sorry JJ but I just have to say this. You need to switch to decaf! Everything adds up to a crime. You are delusional if you truly believe in your heart that a crime was not committed against Ray. Clearly there was a crime...a set up most likely ...and we all know that Ray is no longer with us as a result. All the evidence points to these facts. The miserable MM, TC and hopeless "police work" have lead to nowhere. I just pray that in the event that they can glean some info from the hard drive that they will KNOW what to do with it! Can you say the word CORRUPTION?:D [/*]

What evidence do you have of a crime?

You saying it doesn't make it.

If the results from Kroll show something, that could be it; we don't those yet. Maybe LE does.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by sherrijean981
My worry is WHO gets the results if something is found on the hard drive? How do we know the info will ever reach the news about what is on the drive? We don't know who, if anyone, was involved in his disappearance, which could include anyone in LE, In high Centre County Courthouse positions, friends, family, co-workers, etc.

I just pray they find something that could tell us something to lead to the finding of RG, but that it goes to the right hands to handle it. A couple of points here. I have never been placated by official reports to date. We do not know what LE knows. We do not know what the polygraph tests actually indicated. We do not know what the first hard drive testing actually produced. We do not know...because LE has decided not to tell us all that it knows. And, just like the PSP-CIA report, we will not know of positive results in the further hard drive testing...because LE, in conducting an investigation in secret, is shielded by the law. That is just the way that it is. We will not know, unless and until an indictment is presented, or RG is found alive.

But is it realistic to think that RG is still alive? Leaving all hyperbole aside (“he could have disappeared himself if he’d wanted to”...“he would never have abandoned this, that and the other”), isn’t it a fact that the intentional disappearance theory is actually a product of imbalanced reporting...fostered by the BPD and a willing press via the information which has been released and published? Though obviously hurtful to RG’s family and friends, it is the one theory to which no criminal jeopardy attaches. So it should not come as any surprise then that the BPD would volunteer that part of its investigation, without taking (and the BPD has apparently not taken) a stance on the probability of walk-away over other theories.

[J. J. in Phila]

I would not say "isn’t it a fact that the intentional disappearance theory is actually a product of imbalanced reporting." While I think one newspaper, the Post-Gazette, has done that, it has been the exception. The CDT has played it down the middle.

The problem is this. There is some evidence that RFG walked away:

1. Witness reports. Reports that indicate that RFG walked away are the, chronologically, the Fenton/Grine sighting, the three Lewisburg sightings of 4/16/05, and the Wilkes-Barre sighting of 4/18/05. If even one of these 7 reports is correct, there is a huge likelihood RFG walked away.

2. The lack of assets and financial loose ends. From what, publicly, is out there, there should be more. We are, properly, not going to know about it.

3. Statements prior to Walkaway. The reported ones include the Shotts statement, the comments of PEF on 4/18 (repeated), the comments of the closer friend, Wiley. Unreported, there are more, including TOL's acquaintance.

Now the problems:

1. We all have a problem with witness reports. Some are no doubt wrong, though I doubt all are wrong.

2. We are, properly, not going to know about it. The only thing that we could hope for is for LE to do a forensic audit of perhaps the ten years prior to RFG's disappearance.

3. I believe these reports are correct. However, both TOL's friend and JKA indicate that they had heard something about some aspects of point, i.e. "He talked about it all the time," and "good old Mel Wiley," respectively. The heard about it, so why couldn't a killer.

If there is a brilliant killer (K), couldn't he have found out how Roy Gricar died and that RFG had an interest in walkaway cases. My answer is yes. Could K have lured RFG to the area, in hopes that everyone would think "suicide" or "walkaway?" My answer is yes.

Unless the means that RFG used to exit Lewisburg are found, indicating that he did, I cannot find a reason for LE to state the odds.

[Serendipitous1]

It makes for a good theory, J. J. All I am saying is, if LE is sitting there, supposedly without a particular direction to follow, and PB was pressing LE for information, what should we have expected from them? Exactly what we got...Wileyisms and 20/20 Vision.

We will likely never hear the truth of the investigation into foul play...not from the BPD and certainly not from the PSP, unless there is an indictment. And the chances of an indictment are pretty slim because of Tom Corbett.

[J. J. in Phila]

It makes for a good theory, J. J. All I am saying is, if LE is sitting there, supposedly without a particular direction to follow, and PB was pressing LE for information, what should we have expected from them? Exactly what we got...Wileyisms and 20/20 Vision.

We will likely never hear the truth of the investigation into foul play...not from the BPD and certainly not from the PSP, unless there is an indictment. And the chances of an indictment are pretty slim because of Tom Corbett.


We have one. No evidence of a crime. If there was something, the evidence would have come out by this point. Wiley did not come from LE, nor did a number things regarding RFG's prior to 4/15/05.

[sherrijean981]

We have one. No evidence of a crime. If there was something, the evidence would have come out by this point. Wiley did not come from LE, nor did a number things regarding RFG's prior to 4/15/05.

Have you heard anything from PB yet?

[J. J. in Phila]

Have you heard anything from PB yet?

No, though he has my contact information (and checked me out thoroughly).

[J. J. in Phila]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by J. J. in Phila e

If there is more to the Wilkes Barre sighting you should say what it is. I have studied my tape for so long it would help me to know what some parts mean. If you can't say it on here please say it privatly then. Maybe then we might know some more things that could help.

The first witness was a bartender at a bar who served the man he identified as RFG. The street where the bar was located is about a half mile from an exit of an interstate that connects with I-80 and is about an hour away from Lewisburg. It was in the evening of 4/18/05.

Both witnesses identified the man as RFG, and did so after seeing a video of him (I'm assuming a news video), not a still photo. Both seems to have spoken with him, so they may have identified the voice as well and possibly RFG's gait as well.

That has all been reported.

I have been given some information on the second witness, who seems to have been the one that contacted LE. That witness is someone that I would give a high degree of credibility to if he were to testify in court, alone; in this two witnesses put RFG in the same place at the same time. The account was somewhat consistent with a man not being a regular smoker.

I've suggested that lighting a cigarette or holding it up to your face would be a good way to disguise you face. That could be the situation here.

In short, there is more than meets the eye to the Wilkes-Barre sighting. It's close to being as good as a witness report can get, but no known physical evidence.

[Cloudbuster]

Remember my diamond signs? The front of the courthouse in Bellefonte is known as the diamond.
WilkesBarre is nicknamed the Diamond City.

The discovery of anthracite coal in the 1800s brought hundreds of thousands of immigrants to the area, and also brought numerous entrepreneurs. By the turn of the 20th century, Wilkes-Barre was home to numerous stores, breweries, mills, and factories. Wilkes-Barre is nicknamed "The Diamond City," due to the shape of its Public Square and the abundance of coal. It was said the city was "busy as a beehive" - as the beehive is the symbol of the city. Anthracite coal Anthracite is a hard, compact variety of mineral coal that has a high luster. ... Events and Trends Beginning of the Napoleonic Wars (1803 - 1815). ... Coal is a fossil fuel extracted from the ground either by underground mining, open-pit mining or strip mining. ...
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Wilkes_Barre,-Pennsylvania
Okay I will buy the Wilkes Barre sighting but I don't buy a walk away only because I know it seemed like it but for my own reasons which are paranormal that is the reason. :seeya:

[Cloudbuster]

Here is what I see:
Ray was not himself and wanted out of something.

He was made to do some things he didn't want to do.

People had crossed him and he knew it for some time.

He crossed back.

He was dealing with someone on a personal level.

He knew someone wanted him gone he knew he was in danger along with someone else.

He struggled it all out to the end.

He loved a person enough not to cross her with this.

He was hurt that he done so much with this and she crossed him anyway and he knew it.

He wanted out of something and couldn't go on. He wanted to return to his place to talk.

Someone says to him or he says to them " in your eyes your the one with the bullet"

Something is stolen-person either him or another person says " I stole it and that's what pains".

He says "I took a half day off that's what I said" he was explaining that to someone he was with at that time.

There's more But this is on a parnormal level. Keep that in mind.

[Cloudbuster]

Meth lab found in Union Township
http://www.centredaily.com/news/breaking_news/story/832309.html
Tip leads police to active meth lab near Unionville
http://www.centredaily.com/news/breaking_news/story/832310.htm

Where is this area located???

[sherrijean981]

Meth lab found in Union Township
http://www.centredaily.com/news/breaking_news/story/832309.html
Tip leads police to active meth lab near Unionville
http://www.centredaily.com/news/breaking_news/story/832310.htm

Where is this area located???

Unionville. Between Milesburg and Port Matilda

[Cloudbuster]

Interesting location. TX SJ:rose:

[Serendipitous1]

J.J. - you can chase me around the threads, just like ParlorElephant once did. But you have not, yourself, posed a sufficient theory as to what happened to Ray Gricar. Join the club! Let us know if there is any hard evidence. I bid you adieu for now...I am off to watch today's current events.

[Serendipitous1]

Just a word about "friends". I have disabled visitor messages and I have rejected all "friend solicitations". That is not to say that I do not appreciate all of you. I think of everyone who is interested in Ray Gricar's plight as my friend. Feel free to continue to PM me about anything. I will always answer truthfully, to the best of my ability.

[J. J. in Phila]

J.J. - you can chase me around the threads, just like ParlorElephant once did. But you have not, yourself, posed a sufficient theory as to what happened to Ray Gricar. Join the club! Let us know if there is any hard evidence. I bid you adieu for now...I am off to watch today's current events.

I've given you one. He was fascinated with the concept and decided to try it. You just don't like it because it offends you somehow

There may be another, perhaps, but I do notice how you've avoided my questions.

Now, you've chosen not to answer my questions, because I doubt that you can face the answer.

[J. J. in Phila]

PB mentioned an expected "dust up." Something might be coming.

[Cloudbuster]

I have a question. If I was in that parking lot where Rays car was parked where would the third house from the top be?

If there is no 3rd house from the top then if I sat in the park where he was supposed to be reading a newspaper where would the third house from the top be?

There should be possible woods near that 3rd house from the top.

Can anyone tell me where I would be?

[Cloudbuster]

The reason why Im asking the above questions is because Pete has wondered why Ray moved his car 7ral times in that parking lot. I believe RG was being watched and knew it and it just might have something to do with why he moved 7ral times. He might have been letting them know he knew they was there ect. Sorta like come out come out where ever you are. Its sorta like casing the area knowing they are there.

[Serendipitous1]

Is anyone here playing with "a full deck"? Never mind. I think I know. Glad to have your company.

[J. J. in Phila]

The reason why Im asking the above questions is because Pete has wondered why Ray moved his car 7ral times in that parking lot. I believe RG was being watched and knew it and it just might have something to do with why he moved 7ral times. He might have been letting them know he knew they was there ect. Sorta like come out come out where ever you are. Its sorta like casing the area knowing they are there.

The lot is too small; it's only about fifty yards across.

I can think of three reasons:

1. He wanted a better viewpoint of something, possibly another car.

2. He wanted the Mini to be hidden from passersby. He parked it in the middle row in hopes that another car would pull in beside and block the view from the street.

3. He was planning a transaction of some kind and wanted a place the Mini behind some parked cars.

[Cloudbuster]

S1 I never been to Lewisburg and yes I have a full deck. I know and understand what your saying but this is important to me. It yields what I believe to be a clue. I have tried Google Earth and I can't figure out locations well, in that regard Im not dealing with a full deck of direction knowledge. :punch:

[Cloudbuster]

The lot is too small; it's only about fifty yards across.

I can think of three reasons:

1. He wanted a better viewpoint of something, possibly another car.

2. He wanted the Mini to be hidden from passersby. He parked it in the middle row in hopes that another car would pull in beside and block the view from the street.

3. He was planning a transaction of some kind and wanted a place the Mini behind some parked cars.

JJ I think it's number 2. Thanks!!! Going on my assumptions if RG pulled over and tossed the laptop and then pulls away abruptly and then murderer pulled out. It makes sense that RG positioned himself once he reached the parking lot to have the person drive passed him , yet leaving himself if need be to get out of the parking lot by being in the middle row. Being in the middle row would leave him room either side of the car to manuever out of there quickly. His car is small and if the person pulled in then RG would not be blocked in by being in the middle.

[Serendipitous1]

S1 I never been to Lewisburg and yes I have a full deck. I know and understand what your saying but this is important to me. It yields what I believe to be a clue. I have tried Google Earth and I can't figure out locations well, in that regard Im not dealing with a full deck of direction knowledge. :punch:No one in his/her right mind would give a hoot louder than Gricar's family. And we have not heard from Gricar's family lately. But, by the by, are you trying to BS me Al?...because I know you get around.

[Cloudbuster]

No one in his/her right mind would give a hoot louder than Gricar's family. And we have not heard from Gricar's family lately. But, by the by, are you trying to BS me Al?...because I know you get around.

I agree S1 the Gricar family would give a hoot louder than any of us but we haven't seen that recently. So in essence Im still trying to get where I would be answered. Im not trying any BS on you S1. Yes it is profoundly WELL KNOWN I was Al on lion country and yes I have made rounds all over the interenet with hope of finding anything useful.

Im glad that you have followed me, then you do know I am trying best I can, so I would say my heart is in the right place, just as yours has been. That's great detective work on your part S1, your ability to follow me or stalk me? By now you know I have nothing to hide and no criminal record. I do smoke if you don't know that lol. I would change my name back to Al but at this time it would be confusing. This is a different board and I have a right to a different screename. I choose cloudbuster. But you can call me Al. :)

[Cloudbuster]

Oh I forgot to ask you if you call me Al can I call you Robert or Gus? lol

[Serendipitous1]

Oh I forgot to ask you if you call me Al can I call you Robert or Gus? lolIIRC, you announced on this forum (long ago) that you were Al in another forum. So when I checked that forum (again IIRC) "Al" once roamed the greater Lewisburg area looking for railroad tracks and truck bay doors. Or maybe I am confused...I am getting older...by the minute.

You can call me whatever you want CB (GS prefers "Dip", for instance)...although..."Gus" kinda reminds me of that PA lottery rodent, lol.

[Cloudbuster]

My name was used by someone once on there as AL but Al me never made it to Lewisburg with regrets and no fault of my own. I have what you call a chain around my neck that will not take me there. I have begged and pleaded to no avail. If I was good with directions I would go myself.
I was someone else on there before Al and I was the first to bring up about a woman way before it was ever publically spoken about. I felt that about the woman and projected it out there to see if anyone responded.
When the BJL talk started I was told about someone else who also knew BJL. That man she believed had come into town and she said he had blamed RG for things. As of to this day I don't think it was checked even though this guy committed a crime days before RG disappeared with a violent long record. Thats why I thought RG went to the Prision board meeting. One of the commissioners is a half brother to the guy in question. Guess we will not know. :)

[Serendipitous1]

You should make the trip. Pack up the family and take all those questions circling in your head to Lewisburg.

[Cloudbuster]

Thanks S1 I think I need to. When this all started I got mad at an attack on myself on Town hall. I put what I was actually feeling at the time and looking at it now I wonder how close it might be to the truth.
Here it is:

Posted: 05/20/2005
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cheer up! I see Im being attacked again lol. Makes me feel good and you know why Guest a (she). Something bothering you about what Im saying? Well you will love this. Its a she that set Ray up now hows that! Patty never knew he was meeting anyone because Ray never knew he was meeting anyone. He was followed for a while by a she. Ray was working on something secretly that he came accross and the ( she )wanted to give him more information so she leaned into his car window to talk about it and dropped some ashes! The she smokes. Ray didnt want to be seen in his mini cooper she offered to drive because she acted scared (damsel in distress act) well she was actually setting him up. Ray wore his sunglasses as to disguise himself somewhat because he didnt want to be reconized with another woman he just wouldnt look right for a man of prestige. Ray didnt plan to be gone long so he left his water bottle. He had no need for the cell phone because she was heading up the mountain area somewhere where she would feel safer (act) The cell phone wouldnt work in the mountains anyway! When she got to the secluded place preplanned place. Thats when he met his destiny and the thugs. So all mountains near his car disappearance must be checked including all old secluded buildings and barns, yes barns, lets not forget those old cars that lay all over the place like momuments! Putting pieces together isnt easy but one sees it better after they have checked everything out. The car that she used also was watching the police investagate. She and they will be caught its coming. What Ray knew is what caused all this. He planned to use his laptop to add her information to what he already had. After I have completed all the research that is what this is about. Ray wasnt prosecuting the drug bust case he was involved with it and he stumbled onto something much bigger! So for those that keep insulting me you should love that!

[Politigal]

Article about "Dia Fornicola" - (you'll recall - I had posted that she is a relative of Patty's who taught aerobics at the Y...)

http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/852901.html

[sherrijean981]

How about this story on Steve Sloane. Isn't this the second time he has used his illness to get out of going to a hearing? Yet still working at home?

http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/865810.html

[J. J. in Phila]

How about this story on Steve Sloane. Isn't this the second time he has used his illness to get out of going to a hearing? Yet still working at home?

http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/865810.html

He was in an accident before RFG disappeared; he's had some health problems. The other time was flu or something.

[sherrijean981]

He was in an accident before RFG disappeared; he's had some health problems. The other time was flu or something.


I know there was talk of an accident before RG disappeared and he was not working at the time. He was also one of the people I thought would have been able to "spirit" RG out of town/Lewisburg. Did anyone ever say what kind of car SS or his wife had at that time? Did LE ever check that out?

I also agree with the defence attorney. It does seem like every time a big trial is in the works, he uses his illness to postpone the court cases, but then he either goes to dinners or like now, enters papers that hadn't been given until after he was home sick. Too sick to work at work but not too sick to work at home. Wonder how his next book is coming along?

[J. J. in Phila]

I know there was talk of an accident before RG disappeared and he was not working at the time. He was also one of the people I thought would have been able to "spirit" RG out of town/Lewisburg. Did anyone ever say what kind of car SS or his wife had at that time? Did LE ever check that out?



It has been reported that he was not interviewed by LE, but was by the profiler.

I have about 20-30 people on my "potential helper" list; yes, he is one of them, along with the rest of the staff.

[Cloudbuster]

Why would Ray need a helper? Is it not just so easy as saying "Patty Im leaving Im not happy". Phone call then to Lara "Honey Im leaving I will contact you when I get settled". Doing it the responsible way is what I would invision Ray to do if he was walking away. In doing the above way notice he still didn't give any information as to where he would be located. At least now both knew his intentions but if he preferred not to spaek to either lady at least then they knew his intentions. Then after him handling it that way yes he might inquire a helper since Patty owns the mini cooper.

[J. J. in Phila]

Why would Ray need a helper?

To drive him out of Lewisburg.



Is it not just so easy as saying "Patty Im leaving Im not happy". Phone call then to Lara "Honey Im leaving I will contact you when I get settled". Doing it the responsible way is what I would invision Ray to do if he was walking away. In doing the above way notice he still didn't give any information as to where he would be located. At least now both knew his intentions but if he preferred not to spaek to either lady at least then they knew his intentions. Then after him handling it that way yes he might inquire a helper since Patty owns the mini cooper.

Untill they are put into the position of lying to the police.. Doing it this way removes that possibility.

[puzzled]

Hey Pgal is it possible that Dia Fornicola may be the mystery woman? Do you know what her description is? Could she have been the one who dropped the aerobics tape?:shrug:

[Politigal]

Hey Pgal is it possible that Dia Fornicola may be the mystery woman? Do you know what her description is? Could she have been the one who dropped the aerobics tape?:shrug:

I doubt we'll ever know...but I think it's as good a possibility as any.

[gstickley]

Ray Gricar could have walked away any time he pleased: all he had to do was leave. There was no need for all the cloak & dagger, secret-squirrel, concern or worry of "lying to the police", sneaking out of town, "Porn Buddy", etc. If he was fed up with the job, PF, whatever, all he had to do was turn in his resignation, tell PF he was tired of her ****, & tell everyone else where to go. He could have maintained his pension, taken his belongings, & left to wherever, & there was nothing anyone could have done about it. He quite possibly could have even walked into a car lot & purchased a "getaway" car! He was a free man! And I believe he was a sensible man.

It's amazing that nowadays the 'couple weeks' of RG's acting tired & sleeping more has grown into 'months of acting strange'. The "soulmate"-type RG who planned on retiring with PF, which was shoved down everyone's throat for so long, has developed into RG sneaking off with a mystery woman: guess it's okay now to discuss a MW (embarrassment off the table now???).

Still waiting to hear from Rickard . . .
Still waiting to hear which friends & co-workers think RG walked away . .
Still waiting for someone/anyone to investigate the disappearance of Ray Gricar . . .

[Politigal]

Ray Gricar could have walked away any time he pleased: all he had to do was leave. There was no need for all the cloak & dagger, secret-squirrel, concern or worry of "lying to the police", sneaking out of town, "Porn Buddy", etc. If he was fed up with the job, PF, whatever, all he had to do was turn in his resignation, tell PF he was tired of her ****, & tell everyone else where to go. He could have maintained his pension, taken his belongings, & left to wherever, & there was nothing anyone could have done about it. He quite possibly could have even walked into a car lot & purchased a "getaway" car! He was a free man! And I believe he was a sensible man.

It's amazing that nowadays the 'couple weeks' of RG's acting tired & sleeping more has grown into 'months of acting strange'. The "soulmate"-type RG who planned on retiring with PF, which was shoved down everyone's throat for so long, has developed into RG sneaking off with a mystery woman: guess it's okay now to discuss a MW (embarrassment off the table now???).

Still waiting to hear from Rickard . . .
Still waiting to hear which friends & co-workers think RG walked away . .
Still waiting for someone/anyone to investigate the disappearance of Ray Gricar . . .

Bravo Gstickley

So very well stated

[puzzled]

I wonder if anyone on the board knows what Dia looks like? Has anyone ever met her or seen her in the papers etc.? Ya know for a long time it seemed like no matter what I posted it was criticized. I know I ticked some people off royally. I think that everyone one here just want's to know the truth. So I will continue to try and figure this whole thing out and not really worry about ticking people off. I think since we all have free will we should be able to discuss any and all possibilities. :)
Happy weekend to all.....Go BUCKS!

[J. J. in Phila]

Ray Gricar could have walked away any time he pleased: all he had to do was leave. There was no need for all the cloak & dagger, secret-squirrel, concern or worry of "lying to the police", sneaking out of town, "Porn Buddy", etc. If he was fed up with the job, PF, whatever, all he had to do was turn in his resignation, tell PF he was tired of her ****, & tell everyone else where to go. He could have maintained his pension, taken his belongings, & left to wherever, & there was nothing anyone could have done about it. He quite possibly could have even walked into a car lot & purchased a "getaway" car! He was a free man! And I believe he was a sensible man.



GS, use your head. If RFG leaves, he has to get a vehicle someplace, because he does not own the Mini.

If he resigns, there would be questions, unless he writes his resignation and leaves it on his desk. He just skipped that step, under this scenario.

And, after the initial question, when he leaves does he become legend? No. We don't post about his departure; in a week, there are no news stories.

Now, as for the police, assume that I am a close friend or relative of RFG and he wants to stay in contact with me, so he tells me his plan. Great, but if I'm such a close friend, LE might show up. If RFG tells be what he's doing, I have a choice. I can either tell LE what I know, refuse to answer (which might raise LE's interest in me), or I can lie to the police. Maybe there will be some type of hearing where I'll be under oath. I have a different choice. I can tell the truth or I can commit perjury. By not telling me, RFG doesn't put me in that position. That could be the reason he didn't.


It's amazing that nowadays the 'couple weeks' of RG's acting tired & sleeping more has grown into 'months of acting strange'. The "soulmate"-type RG who planned on retiring with PF, which was shoved down everyone's throat for so long, has developed into RG sneaking off with a mystery woman: guess it's okay now to discuss a MW (embarrassment off the table now???).


First, the earliest report of unusual behavior that I've heard about was five weeks earlier, but numerous sources say that there was unusual behavior.

Second, from the start, if this was a walkaway, that would involving leaving PEF behind.

Third, while it is obviously possible that there was some type of dalliance on 4/15/05, the only person who has really come close to suggesting something close is Bob Buehner, by suggesting that the "Mystery Woman" might have checked into a motel with RFG. And he didn't suggest it was romantic dalliance.



Still waiting to hear from Rickard . . .
Still waiting to hear which friends & co-workers think RG walked away .

The latter spoke to the press, so send your resume to the CDT.

[Cinderella]

I wonder if anyone on the board knows what Dia looks like? Has anyone ever met her or seen her in the papers etc.? Ya know for a long time it seemed like no matter what I posted it was criticized. I know I ticked some people off royally. I think that everyone one here just want's to know the truth. So I will continue to try and figure this whole thing out and not really worry about ticking people off. I think since we all have free will we should be able to discuss any and all possibilities. :)
Happy weekend to all.....Go BUCKS!


Didn't you know that ticking people off on here means that you are accepted? :beer:

[Cloudbuster]

Here is a interesting old missing person's case. I thought the circumstances of the case and area are of interest.
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/601dfpa.html

[Cloudbuster]

Another interesting one from Bellefonte
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/602dfpa.html

[sherrijean981]

Another interesting one from Bellefonte
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/602dfpa.html


Maybe they need to do a search of the quarries in Bellefonte and near Jacksonville. For her and RG.

I don't remember this case or even seeing mention of it anywhere in all the searches I was doing.

[sherrijean981]

Here is a interesting old missing person's case. I thought the circumstances of the case and area are of interest.
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/601dfpa.html


Drugs again. And only about 17 miles from Lewisburg.

[sherrijean981]

Maybe not even that far.

[Politigal]

Does anyone here ever feel like we are sometimes posting/communicating with people who are a brick short of a load?

Just Joking

[J. J. in Phila]

Does anyone here ever feel like we are sometimes posting/communicating with people who are a brick short of a load?

Just Joking

I'm sure some people get lost in the massive conspiracy theories and the belief that 9+ witnesses are completely wrong feel that there are a few people. because most not Pretty Gullible.

[Serendipitous1]

Does anyone here ever feel like we are sometimes posting/communicating with people who are a brick short of a load?

Just JokingHow could I know? I am apparently among the cyber sleuths with a jolly pirate nickname, sitting around in my underwear, prone to on-line shouting matches while pounding back.....well, I am partial to alcoholic beverages, which is probably why I cannot stay up all night. Mountain Dew? Yuk!
http://community.centredaily.com/?q=node/5948

Last year I was a snark and before that, just a recreational poster. So take your pick....all of those "labels" are true, to a degree.

I want to know what happened to Ray Gricar. So I have challenged every scenario presented here and elsewhere...not because they are necessarily wrong, but because they are lacking a definitive basis. And they are lacking a definitive basis because LE has largely maintained a stranglehold on information.

PB broke through some of that ice. And I am definitely encouraged by SG's (and, go figure, MM's) latest offering:
http://www.centredaily.com/news/breaking_news/story/874382.html
This shows an acute (official) awareness of the critical questions which have been raised here. My hat is off to each and every one of you.

[J. J. in Phila]

Is it really all that encouraging to know that there are 'rumors' floating around of the strange phenomena whereby a county DA happens to ask exactly what was necessary to erase a hard drive? Imagine a DA asking such a strange question considering it could equal evidence in a case?



I think you are missing the point. From the article:

“There was some discussion of having seen Mr. Gricar expressing interest in getting software to erase the hard drive of the computer,” Madeira said, but there is no evidence that he ever purchased that software.

Until quite recently, I had no idea that RFG had mentioned any interest in destroying the contents of the drive. I have not seen that mentioned, except by P'gal. who thought the drive had been erased.

My own questions to if Kroll could make that determination, but I'm more interested on if they can determine the last time the drive was activated.

What might be interesting is if some people remember that RFG was interested in destroying the contents of the drive so it could not be read by others and then finding that the drive was (probably) destroyed and is (definitely) unreadable by others.

I'll have to see how this unravels.

That seems to be a reasonable question that MM should ask.

[sherrijean981]

We have never heard that from anyone on the forum, Pete never said anything about it and it was never in any article in the paper before. I don't beleive it anyways.

Ray had his nephew to turn to if LG or PF didn't know how to do it. Why would he even think of inquiring of others in the court house? If he had something to hide, by asking the question, someone was going to get suspious of just what he want removed from his drive, especially if someone was watching him thinking he had something on them. It would only set him wide open with that person/s.

Wonder what other little tidbits MM will be telling us tomorrow?

[J. J. in Phila]

We have never heard that from anyone on the forum, Pete never said anything about it and it was never in any article in the paper before. I don't beleive it anyways.

Ray had his nephew to turn to if LG or PF didn't know how to do it. Why would he even think of inquiring of others in the court house?


I would suspect some of them prosecuted cases involving the collection or recovery of data.

I don't know the origin, but I'll wait and see.

P'gal expressed her opinion that it was erased. I've expressed an opinion that, if erased, Kroll might be able to tell. I have not heard anyone on the forum say that RFG spoke about doing an erasure.

[Cloudbuster]

JJ I can't find the post but I think it was me that brought up about erasing the hardrive with software that anyone can use. It's interesting that RG did inquire about the software. I will stick with what I believe in and that's that RG erased a hardrive that was not his, so he could protect the person it belonged to. I still think his hardrive is out there. I do not believe he was going to give the person what they wanted but possibly tricked them.

[tonyGricar]

Why would he even think of inquiring of others in the court house? If he had something to hide, by asking the question, someone was going to get suspious of just what he want removed from his drive, especially if someone was watching him thinking he had something on them. It would only set him wide open with that person/s.

Speaking from experience, when computers are scrapped/auctioned, making sure they are completely clean is a very relevant question to look at. I don't believe CC was exactly on the cutting edge of technology, so I'd be curious to know if there were polices and procedures for retiring computers. Just look at how often a laptop disappears in an airport and you then read in the WSJ that it was a Chase Bank employee and it had 10m credit card numbers on it.

If he was asking around about wipe software, with the intent of aiding his disappearance, he's not as smart as I give him credit for, given an otherwise spotless trail. I think he'd be able to do a Yahoo search on it if he were intending to be discrete.

[J. J. in Phila]

First, it would not be too unusual for a man to wish to wipe a drive before returning a computer on retirement. If RFG did something as innocent as ordering Indians' tickets online, it would record his credit card number. I can very easily understand why he would consider erasing it.

Second, well, there are some unusual things:

1. A package for erasure software was seen well prior to the disappearance, and well prior to the scheduled retirement date. That is a bit unusual.

2. You generally cannot buy erasure software at the local Sheetz. I'm not entirely sure that it would be available at office supply stores. There would also be a fair chance that it would be tax deductible. There is no receipt.

That is unusual, though not conclusive, obviously.

[ladyheartfixer]

is a bit unusual.

2. You generally cannot buy erasure software at the local Sheetz. I'm not entirely sure that it would be available at office supply stores. There would also be a fair chance that it would be tax deductible. There is no receipt.

That is unusual, though not conclusive, obviously.



not available at Sheets but readily available online and at some office supply stores

[J. J. in Phila]

not available at Sheets but readily available online and at some office supply stores

Online would create a record. A "brick and mortar" store could sell one without a record, but the question is why wouldn't produce a record. This was possibly a tax deduction.

There are some questions surrounding this.

[gstickley]

Is anyone else bothered by the "coincidences" in all this?

That the MW was not made known to the public for a year after RG's disappearance & not until the media had picked up on her?

That the gold/tan/brown car seen in the vicinity was not made public for a year after RG's disappearance & not until the media picked up on it?

That the information given out on the fingerprint(s) found in/on the Mini by DZ & not corrected by SW or MM or anyone for approx. 2.5 yrs?

That the hard drive not being sent to Kroll or anyplace else for a 2nd opinion for 3+ yrs.?

That PB is now posting daily or almost daily about RG when l o n g periods went by with nothing while he was employed by the CDT?

That KA was dissed by many for her observations but SS, who was reportedly RG's best friend, is allowed to slide with no public statements?

That immediately after the report from Kroll, it's suddenly reported that RG was asking about how to clean up hard drive?

That there is such a push on about all the friends/co-workers who have information on RG's interest in walking away (now down to 3, maybe 4)?

That there is now a push on about all the friends/co-workers who have information on RG's interest in cleaning up his computer (gawd knows how many here)?

That posters here (except for one) are being unfavorably described openly by PB in his blog?

That anyone asking for an independent, unbiased investigation or task force is shot down by PB & the Gang? ("Everything's been done that could be done."

What are "they" afraid of???????????????????????

[UndertheRadar]

Is anyone else bothered by the "coincidences" in all this? [snip]



Oh, absolutely. I had just been sitting here mulling over some of these "coincidences" myself when I found your post. Curious how this is all playing out, no?

[sherrijean981]

I was on PB's Blog earlier and he said that Detective Matt Rickard is now doing the investigation as if from day one, questioning everyone. I wonder if that is where all this information is coming from, those interviews?

[gstickley]

I was on PB's Blog earlier and he said that Detective Matt Rickard is now doing the investigation as if from day one, questioning everyone. I wonder if that is where all this information is coming from, those interviews?

Yeah, SJ, I read that. Rickard's reportedly been on the case since the beginning & in charge of same for what, the last year, & people are just now being questioned---3.5 yrs. later??? Kinda makes ya wonder why "questioning everyone" has taken so long in coming . . . I don't know about everyone else, but the "everything's been done that could be done" sure seems lame to me. Also, don't you think it's pretty weird that nothing was heard about RG asking about cleaning a hard drive when the FBI lab couldn't find anything . . . years ago? Weird, I tell you, weird!!!

[gstickley]

Oh, absolutely. I had just been sitting here mulling over some of these "coincidences" myself when I found your post. Curious how this is all playing out, no?

Thanks UTR. Glad to know I'm not the only one. Watch out, though, you might be included in the "fool" category with Day & me. :seeya:

[Cloudbuster]

Now we see that the sheriff's office might be getting a Forensic audit.
http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/880773.html

[Serendipitous1]

Now we see that the sheriff's office might be getting a Forensic audit.
http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/880773.htmlThat could be most revealing, on different levels...Semper Fi!

[J. J. in Phila]

That could be most revealing, on different levels...Semper Fi!

But in all probability, not related to this case.

[Serendipitous1]

But in all probability, not related to this case.Perhaps. Then again, lots of information can be gleaned from those pesky forensic audits. ;)

Shifting gears -- I recently returned to billywahoo's early offerings (my copy...the posts were all wiped from this 'new and improved' forum)...things like, "his [RG's] family knew more than a year ahead of the public retirement statement", and, "walking away due to some form of detachment from reality (i.e. a breakdown) would obviously be the preferred scenario for the family and friends".

There are lots of billywahoo gems (among 500 total posts, before abruptly leaving in August 2006, IIRC). But this one stands out for several reasons, including a departure from billywahoo's habitual avoidance of capitalization. To me it represents where billy's head was...what the frustrations were...at the time, which was 6/22/05, before the laptop was found and before the touted polygraph tests were performed. I think it was one running paragraph, which I have broken up as follows:

It is a bit hard to understand how, on the one hand, there is absolutely no evidence, while, on the other hand, it is reported ‘this person’ or ‘that person’ is not suspect. This includes BJ Leathers, the cases he was involved in, and PF.

Instead, from day one, we were presented with the possibility that Ray Gricar was a ‘lost in space’ sort of DA, capable of suicide, or running away with someone, or wandering the States confused, making occasional appearances. The ‘clean’ car story with a few cigarette ashes tossed in only adds to the mystery. The dog never leaving the car, with the river then being searched for over a week, puts the proverbial icing on this ‘unedible cake’.

It appears that it was necessary to announce his disappearance but everything else is to remain a mystery. I could understand it to be a complete mystery if it weren’t for the fact that so many have been ruled out as ‘not a suspect’. We have been left with the same impression of Jonathan Luna who was finally portrayed to be a ‘suicidal, in debt, philanderer’ who gave up his career, his family and life, by stabbing himself 36 times, kicking himself very hard where it hurts the most, and ending it all by jumping into 3" of water.

Maybe the ‘rants and raves’ from other boards are not so far-fetched as they espouse to a political connection in the Lewisburg area. One can only be left to wonder as the silence continues. My opinion only.

[J. J. in Phila]

Instead, from day one, we were presented with the possibility that Ray Gricar was a ‘lost in space’ sort of DA, capable of suicide, or running away with someone, or wandering the States confused, making occasional appearances. The ‘clean’ car story with a few cigarette ashes tossed in only adds to the mystery. The dog never leaving the car, with the river then being searched for over a week, puts the proverbial icing on this ‘unedible cake’.


Well, let's look at who "presented" those possibilities?

Suicide? Both TG and CG reacted to "Water Street." I think reaction was reasonable.

"States of Confusion?" I've heard two public comments on this. The first was BG, who suggested the possibility of mini-strokes. The second was from PB, that LE checked hospitals. After the car was found, I think it was a reasonable thing to look at. Both of theories seem to have originated from current or former members of the Gricar family. (Bluntly, both seem very unlikely now.) I would argue that both were reasonable.

It is incorrect on the point that the dog never left the car; the dog did.

[Cloudbuster]

http://moreoldfortyfives.com/TakeMeBackToTheSixties.htm
A break for die hards lol

[Cloudbuster]

The economy:
http://www.newswithviews.com/Devvy/kidd400.htm

Find your new bailout:rose:

[J. J. in Phila]

So you are now saying two people who were likely there the day the tracking occurred are wrong.......BW, incorrect, and Dixon when he said the dog never left the car.
Do you have the dog trailing report to prove you are correct while two people likely there that day are wrong?
JMO

I'm saying that BW was wrong. The circled in the parking lot about 20 yards away from the car. DZ and possibly Dixon noted that the dogs circled in the parking lot and that the handler thought it indicated RFG could have gotten into another car.

[gstickley]

I'm saying that BW was wrong. The circled in the parking lot about 20 yards away from the car. DZ and possibly Dixon noted that the dogs circled in the parking lot and that the handler thought it indicated RFG could have gotten into another car.

So, the dogs didn't "track RG down to the river where he could jump in & commit suicide??? And they didn't "track him into the SOS???

(Haven't we done this before?????????)

[gstickley]

Today would have been the 63rd birthday of Ray Gricar.

Today makes 3 yrs., 5 mos., 24 days, since Ray Gricar disappeared.

Today makes 1 yr. since Ray Gricar became eligible for Social Security.

Please, someone out there, use your influence to initiate an unbiased, independent investigation into the disappearance of Mr. Gricar.

[Serendipitous1]

Today would have been the 63rd birthday of Ray Gricar.

Today makes 3 yrs., 5 mos., 24 days, since Ray Gricar disappeared.

Today makes 1 yr. since Ray Gricar became eligible for Social Security.

Please, someone out there, use your influence to initiate an unbiased, independent investigation into the disappearance of Mr. Gricar.Ditto that! I have not given up on JM. I will be curious to see if RG is mentioned in the two AG debates. But there are a lot of other important issues.

[J. J. in Phila]

Soon after the tracking took place we have two people, BW and Dixon, both saying the dog NEVER left the car, yet one year later we hear of the new 20 yard version. Whose version is that?


The 20 yards came in late, but Dixon noted that the dogs circled in the parting lot and that handler though he got into another car; an early witness reported that. It isn't change in the story, just a detail that wasn't reported.



You are saying BW had it wrong, but in order to make it wrong, you also have to make Dixon wrong, since there are two who say never said 20 yards. Your 'possibly Dixon noted' is incorrect. Who is it you are quoting?
JMO

No, Dixon said that the handler though the dogs behaved as though RFG got into another car, that his scent did not extend beyond the parking lot. This was reported at the time, and later in June 2005

From the Altoona Mirror, 6/5/05, from Z:



Zaccagni said other details, such as the cigarette ash on the floor and the search dogs circling as if Gricar got into a vehicle, were pre-reported, but he gives Baron the benefit of the doubt considering the other unreported details she's provided.


You note "pre-reported.

The article isn't on-ine, but TG was kind enough to send me a copy. I've never talked to BW (knowingly, at least).

[gstickley]

The 20 yards came in late, but Dixon noted that the dogs circled in the parting lot and that handler though he got into another car; an early witness reported that. It isn't change in the story, just a detail that wasn't reported.




No, Dixon said that the handler though the dogs behaved as though RFG got into another car, that his scent did not extend beyond the parking lot. This was reported at the time, and later in June 2005

From the Altoona Mirror, 6/5/05, from Z:



You note "pre-reported.

The article isn't on-ine, but TG was kind enough to send me a copy. I've never talked to BW (knowingly, at least).

For all the "suicide theorists", does this mean RG catapulted himself from this area into the Susquehanna?

[J. J. in Phila]

Zaccagni's use of the word 'pre-reported' offers NO proof Dixon ever said anything other than that which he specifically stated in the news, the dog never left the car.


Here is a direct quote from Dixon:

Dixon said a police dog that sniffed around the lot where Gricar's car was found acted in a way that "possibly could have meant that Ray might have gotten into another vehicle."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1388886/posts

Note the words "around the lot." BTW the link provides an additional witness that wasn't on my list. That may take it up to ten.

Try again.

[puzzled]

Thanks so much for the laugh GS! I really needed it! I have not laughed in weeks!! Very rare for me!:)

[J. J. in Phila]

Sniffing around a lot where a vehicle was supposedly parked for at least 24 hours, if parked there at 5-6 pm the day before, would definitely be something a dog would do considering there would be scent pockets to check out. Circling the lot, sniffing AROUND the lot, means nothing if there wasn't a direct path tracked.


Scent rafts should be coming from a body, not a vehicle.


What we want to know if whether the dog, after circling the car according to news at that time, then made a beeline, a direct path to a location in the lot and stopped, alerting end of trail. If a swipe from the driver's seat was used to scent, it doesn't necessarily mean it was RG's scent. What was collected and used by LE for scent in tracking?


We established a log time ago that the dogs didn't circle the car and that initial reports were that the handler thought that the dogs indicated that he got into another car. You have the link.


BIG difference, but you are right, and I was wrong.....Dixon did say something other than 'circled the car'. My apology.....I hadn't read it before. Dixon repeated what the dog trainer/owner/ interpreter said. Given it's but a repeat from someone else, I would instead like to see the full dog tracking report. See if you can get us a copy, would you?
JMO

You are not entitled to it, nor am I, but ask PB. He might be able to get it.

[J. J. in Phila]

You still didn't answer my question. Did the dog make a straight line track or did the dog 'sniff around the lot' as your article states?
BIG difference in determining 'maybe, might have, could have'.


You are free to ask PB. It wasn't from any description just around the car. I'm only interested in it showing that RFG was in Lewisburg at this point, though there was one witness that saw him getting into a car.


The handler's words 'possibly could have meant' is hardly more than just that, a guess.


No, it is the handler's observation, that the act was consistent with RFG getting into a car. The question I have is, "Okay, were is that car."

[gstickley]

Tried to tell ya all . . . RG catapulted from the area of the Mini to the Susquehanna! That's why the dogs didn't track his scent to the river, & that's why it was necessary to spend so much time on the famous "RG may have committed suicide by jumping in the river" scenerio & why this scenerio is still being batted around. :punch:

[Serendipitous1]

Tried to tell ya all . . . RG catapulted from the area of the Mini to the Susquehanna! That's why the dogs didn't track his scent to the river, & that's why it was necessary to spend so much time on the famous "RG may have committed suicide by jumping in the river" scenerio & why this scenerio is still being batted around.:no: He was attempting to teleport himself from Brush Valley. But he and his laptop got separated from the Mini at the last moment, and overshot the parking lot. And if you would :read: science journals, you would know that teleportation of animate objects is extremely risky. It is quite possible his molecules are now fused into the bridge...an accident, pure and simple. :(

ETA: have a pleasant weekend all. Feel free to "talk" about me while I am gone...or not.

[J. J. in Phila]

Tried to tell ya all . . . RG catapulted from the area of the Mini to the Susquehanna! That's why the dogs didn't track his scent to the river, & that's why it was necessary to spend so much time on the famous "RG may have committed suicide by jumping in the river" scenerio & why this scenerio is still being batted around.

Or, simply, RFG came to Lewisburg,

1. Parked the Mini someplace else.

2. Acquired a car.

3. Parked the car in the parking lot.

4. Walked to where he parked the Mini.

5. Drove the Mini to the spot where it found.

6. Got out, went to the newly acquired car, and drove away.

The dogs just detected the most recent scent, which could have several hours fresher.

[Cloudbuster]

Does anyone know if the tape they found near the car door would or could be used by a fitness coordinator?

[Cloudbuster]

Commissioner Steve Dershem went further, calling the books in the sheriff’s office “a mess.”

“I would venture to say that there has been a commingling of funds for so long that it’s difficult to determine exactly account balances, account revenues, disbursements,” Dershem said. “And there are some other questions that go beyond those issues I think we need to flesh out that we don’t have the answers to.”

Nau’s defenders might see politics at work here — he is a Democrat, Dershem a Republican.

Nevertheless, there are issues involving the way money and court documents are handled in Nau’s office that simply must be resolved. His first duty as an elected official, after all, is public accountability.

http://www.centredaily.com/opinion/story/888857.html

[Cinderella]

Does anyone know if the tape they found near the car door would or could be used by a fitness coordinator?

Since posting the two items together, you jogged my memory of having attended a fitness center that was located in Bellefonte, PA that used to be owned by Denny Nau and his wife. I personally met Denny Nau there. That was before he became Sheriff of Centre County. I wonder if they used any certain exercise tapes at their fitness center. The fitness center was later closed and turned into a Doctors office.

I am also wondering if Denny Nau and his wife have any horses. IIRC, she was a horse lover. I could be wrong. Is the Sheriff ever in any parades on a horse. The hat that Denny was kinda makes him look like a cowboy.

I am remembering that Ray was at the Prison Board Meeting that week. Dershem stated that they were graced by Ray's presence.

I have always wondered why the Centre County Sheriff's office never investigated this case, as the website states that the Sherriff''s Office is the highest law enforment in the County. I personally e-mailed the sherriff and he stated that his office wasn't involved.

It doesn't seem like he has too good of a track record giving that Commissioner Dershem stated that the Sheriff Office Books were a mess. The sheriff paid his deputy's directly for working the Penn State Football games, when he was supposed to have deposited that check. He also overlooked an order that he was supposed to have weapons removed from a man who shot his wife as she went to pick up their baby. At first he denied that he had the records, then they suddenly appeared.

The Philadelphia Sheriffs deputy charges were dropped by Gricar for raping a woman, when in fact the baby that she conceived belonged to the Philadelphia Sheriff's deputy. Maybe Nau really needs to be investigated due to various things. Could there been something that was taking place that Ray found out about. I don't know.

Funny that Detective Z was placed with the Sheriff's office.

This is all public, wonder what else has gone on? :punch:

[Cloudbuster]

This is interesting:
Denny served as a traffic patrol officer, undercover vice/narcotics officer, criminal investigator, arson investigator, and fitness coordinatorhttp://www.dennynau.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=12&Itemid=27

Now I need to ask a dumb question? After the state police review we saw JL being brought in on possible arson charges. Did DN investagate the past arsons of JL's and declare them arsons?

[Cloudbuster]

Also coincidently lives near TL.

[Cloudbuster]

I agree with you LW. I was also thinking about when RG went to the Prision Board meeting. I wonder who all was in attendance that day. If RG after the meeting wanted to talk with a individual in private and perhaps they set a meeting up to take place at Raystown lake.

Let's say RG showed up as indicated but the other person didn't --possibly got busy or something came up at work. Later in the courthouse RG may have phoned the person to set up a new meeting Friday at Lewisburg. Or perhaps RG paged the person to call him back. They decide upon lewisburg because it's private or possibly the other party had business up there. Example : transportation of a prisioner or such.

Some thoughts:
who was in charge of the arson team when JL's fires seemed to pass as non arson?
Did BJL go to RG even by way of a phone call during normal CH business hours?
Why was a fire started near TL area? Was it to scare her because the person feared BL told her something?

Someone close to RG knew he had a county owned laptop and knew RG used it for searches and such BUT I don't think they knew that RG got a personal in home one. Was they afraid that some possible searches might point their way?

I think the tape found was a accident on their part and most likely it fell out of RG's passenger side door or their vechicle if they pulled close to RG's car. Most would think it belongs to a woman and I think it belongs to a man.:rose:

[J. J. in Phila]

LW, first, you assume that RFG wasn't meeting someone, perhaps not in an official capacity and he didn't call or receive that other person that morning or that there wasn't a prearrangement.




Secondly, WHY 60 miles away from home to disappear? Although it has been assumed there could have been a meeting, some thinking possibly reporting something about 'someone' to a higher up, yet we hear of NO one with claims of having met with him that day, let alone even talked to him that day, nor of anything scheduled. We are told he was 'relaxing'; NO meeting scheduled, and NO one coming forward to say that a meeting took place that day, or saying RG didn't show up for the meeting. Nothing......IMO, that failure of anyone within the 'work realm' coming forward most likely indicates there was no work related planned meeting.


If this a set up, the person he was meeting with is probably involved and isn't likely to come forward.

In terms of voluntarily leaving, three definite reasons:

1. To give himself a head start. LE would first have to figure out where the Mini was and go from there.

2. To leave from some place where he wouldn't be recognized. He's out of the local media market.

3. To create a jurisdictional quagmire. The report is made to the BPD, the car is found in the jurisdiction of the LPD and the laptop is located in the PSP's jurisdiction.


Thirdly, IMO, RG was simply not the kind of person who would just 'sculk' away, running out of town, leaving it 'all behind'.


And some of those who know him well don't share your opinion. I trust them more than I trust you in this regard.


The more I think about it, the more it seems to me there are really only three things that might have happened.


Once again, you thought process is too limited/


One, he was meeting a 'someone', non-work related, and ran into trouble, either with the 'someone' or someone found out about it.


Which doesn't explain the laptop at all.


Two, he ran into trouble with a stranger.


Which doesn't explain the laptop at all or why we don't have a body.


Three, RG never went to Lewisburg that day. (Therein, is the only possibilty I see for a JL, BL, TL connection.) I don't see them smart enough to pull it off alone. IMO, it would have taken someone with a background in LE to have done so.
JMO

Which doesn't explain the laptop, the scent, or the 8-10 witnesses.

[Serendipitous1]

RayGricar.com appears to be down again, although it is still listed as active, through May. An archived page (without photos): http://web.archive.org/web/20080123170332/http://www.raygricar.com/

RG photos: http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&safe=active&q=%22Ray+Gricar%22

Lewisburg site photos: http://images.google.com/images?as_q=&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&imgtype=&imgsz=&as_filetype=&imgc=&as_sitesearch=www.raygricar.com&safe=active&as_st=y

[day2day]

CB is on TRU TV 2pm on 10/18...Ray's story-again. :(

[Cloudbuster]

D2D was it the same one?

[day2day]

D2D was it the same one?

Hey CB-yea it was the same one :(...

[Cloudbuster]

Thanks d2d!!! I taped that show last time and watched it about 15 times now lol. Firefly thinks that it was a woman that drove the other car with a male passenger. He also thinks she used childproof locks. We have 2 psychics with similiar findings but a little different.

Recently I showed firefly a photo of a person I think that fits a cowboy (there are 2 that fit that). He asked if the person has a gait in his walk? Problem is I don't know that cause I never met either person. :mad:

[Cloudbuster]

http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/909317.html

[Cloudbuster]

This is the first time I've seen the name Frank Gricar used. Seems he might have won a prize if Im reading right at the Meadowlands.
http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=50569
who knows:shrug:

[day2day]

Thanks d2d!!! I taped that show last time and watched it about 15 times now lol. Firefly thinks that it was a woman that drove the other car with a male passenger. He also thinks she used childproof locks. We have 2 psychics with similiar findings but a little different.

Recently I showed firefly a photo of a person I think that fits a cowboy (there are 2 that fit that). He asked if the person has a gait in his walk? Problem is I don't know that cause I never met either person. :mad:

Hey Cb-
i sure am kickin myself for not dvr'in it. It just seems so wrong that we are still here and he is still out there "somewhere"...The holidays are right around the corner-:mad:

[Serendipitous1]

RayGricar.com appears to be down again, although it is still listed as active, through May. An archived page (without photos): http://web.archive.org/web/20080123170332/http://www.raygricar.com/

RG photos: http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&safe=active&q=%22Ray+Gricar%22

Lewisburg site photos: http://images.google.com/images?as_q=&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&imgtype=&imgsz=&as_filetype=&imgc=&as_sitesearch=www.raygricar.com&safe=active&as_st=yTG is alive and well. His instant problem is not whether to wear red or blue to tomorrow's game...he is true blue...but how to properly feed his tailgate crowd. PSU will beat OSU handily BTW...my 'vision'.

I think PB said it all today in his blog...my interpretation: we can go on discussing, but unless there is another flareup...something substantial...RG's plight is like a ship with no port.

"O-bla-di, O-bla-da, life goes on" (Beatles). That is a good thing. But then, so are some hobbies.

~ just a snarky, recreational poster.

[day2day]

TG is alive and well. His instant problem is not whether to wear red or blue to tomorrow's game...he is true blue...but how to properly feed his tailgate crowd. PSU will beat OSU handily BTW...my 'vision'.

I think PB said it all today in his blog...my interpretation: we can go on discussing, but unless there is another flareup...something substantial...RG's plight is like a ship with no port.

"O-bla-di, O-bla-da, life goes on" (Beatles). That is a good thing. But then, so are some hobbies.

~ just a snarky, recreational poster.

Hey S1-so nice to "see" you..and IIRC TG will be picking Scarlet today!!
And i hate to be the bearer of bad news...but i really don't think your next job will be in "psychic predictions" cause i think you are way off on this one..(but i know of a few psychics that might just take you on) LOL
Justa reminder -Joe has NEVER won in the 'shoe and he won't be winning today...

**just my prediction**..:D


and i have a feeling a ripple is on the way!!

:seeya:

[Serendipitous1]

Hey S1-so nice to "see" you..and IIRC TG will be picking Scarlet today!!
And i hate to be the bearer of bad news...but i really don't think your next job will be in "psychic predictions" cause i think you are way off on this one..(but i know of a few psychics that might just take you on) LOL
Justa reminder -Joe has NEVER won in the 'shoe and he won't be winning today... **just my prediction**..:D and i have a feeling a ripple is on the way!! :seeya:I am thinking of a 'psychic sideline' for next year...as a hedge against inflation. But I need to get this game prediction right...so I can advertise. Joe ended his Michigan jinx last week. I figure the Lions can keep it rolling at the horseshoe.

As for RG...lotsa calm water between them there ripples, doncha think?! ... :shrug: