6/5 to 6/12 (FLDS & 19th Century Marriage)

[Ladyhawk]

Reading the FLDS concession statement read by Spokesman Willie, the second point, "The church's practices in this regard continue a long tradition of marriage in this country that would have been found to have been unremarkable in 19th century America. In the FLDS church all marriages are consensual. The church insists on appropriate consent, including that of the woman and the man in all circumstances." indicates there are practices from the 19th century other than consent that will be continued. What could those practices be? What was marriage like in the 19th century? A protest against the laws of the time by Lucy Stone & Henry Blackwell prior to their marriage is very interesting. The laws Stone & Blackwell were protesting seem to be the very laws the FLDS are perpetuating....laws that are no longer in existence because they were a violation of basic human rights.

I would like to see the FLDS stop the practice of assigning and reassigning women and their children to different husbands. That practice is just wrong.

Stone & Blackwell's protest (http://womenshistory.about.com/library/etext/bl_marriage_stone_blackwell.htm)

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by Ladyhawk


I would like to see the FLDS stop the practice of assigning and reassigning women and their children to different husbands. That practice is just wrong.

[/*]

<bandwidth snip>

That practice began with Joseph Smith, the original prophet. I seriously doubt the FLDS will ever turn their backs on something like that. Should one of their modern prophets have a 'revelation' to practice something different, there is likely to be a splintering off from that person.

In their society, women can't even get a place in heaven without the direct assistance of a man. They are literally nothing without a man, by their way of thinking.

JMO

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by Ladyhawk
Reading the FLDS concession statement read by Spokesman Willie, the second point, "The church's practices in this regard continue a long tradition of marriage in this country that would have been found to have been unremarkable in 19th century America. In the FLDS church all marriages are consensual. The church insists on appropriate consent, including that of the woman and the man in all circumstances." indicates there are practices from the 19th century other than consent that will be continued. What could those practices be? What was marriage like in the 19th century? A protest against the laws of the time by Lucy Stone & Henry Blackwell prior to their marriage is very interesting. The laws Stone & Blackwell were protesting seem to be the very laws the FLDS are perpetuating....laws that are no longer in existence because they were a violation of basic human rights.

I would like to see the FLDS stop the practice of assigning and reassigning women and their children to different husbands. That practice is just wrong.

Stone & Blackwell's protest (http://womenshistory.about.com/library/etext/bl_marriage_stone_blackwell.htm) [/*]

Well, Willy is a bald-faced liar about these 'women' marrying consensually, he should read the VERY revealing book written by Elissa Wall, 'Stolen Innocence'. She was not the only underage girl to be forced into marriage, nor was she the only one that escaped.

Some of these women and their children could end up with 3 or more different husbands/fathers due to the practice of reassignment.

Thanks for starting this thread LadyHawk .

[Details]

Elisa Wall is not proof of everything that happens - but it proves his statement that all these marriages are consentual a lie, and a lie he knows quite well about, since that case got Jeffs sent to jail.

It doesn't prove every marriage is not consentual, but it sure proves that some of them are not consentual. And proved it in court.

[Details]

Exactly. So when they say all marriages are consentual, and hers was not, they're proved liars.

[walton]

Originally posted by Bratlings



No, in court she proved only that "her" marriage was not consensual. I believe her but actually she didnt even prove that, it was a matter of he said/she said. [/*]



he said/she said the nurse said, the sister said, the mother said they all said her marriage was not consensual.

[johnielee333]

Originally posted by Details
Exactly. So when they say all marriages are consentual, and hers was not, they're proved liars. [/*]

yep

[evalles]

Originally posted by Details
Exactly. So when they say all marriages are consentual, and hers was not, they're proved liars. [/*]

Kinda like when CPS said all the pregnant girls were minors but they were really adults. They're proved liars.

[lotty]

Originally posted by evalles


Kinda like when CPS said all the pregnant girls were minors but they were really adults. They're proved liars. [/*]
IIRC pregnant or had already born children...and there is at least one falling under that scrutiny with special limitations.

[evalles]

Originally posted by lotty

IIRC pregnant or had already born children...and there is at least one falling under that scrutiny with special limitations. [/*]
They ended up w/ how many that were actual minors ? Last I heard was 5, someone else said 2.

Now there is one, believed to be confirmed case of sexual abuse.
Is anyone ready to admit that abuse might not have been as rampant as was claimed on the ranch ?

[Ladyhawk]

This pretty well sums up how this FLDS group interprets 'consentual'....as an agreement to the following:

From FLDS Beliefs 101 - Arranged Marriages........

"To have a proper marriage, one that will exists for eternity in heaven, a marriage must be assigned by the prophet. “You can only get married and be a priesthood family if he (the prophet) says whom you should marry. “(WSJ 10/31/1995). No dating, courting, or choosing your own spouse is allowed. “If a boy and girl agree to get married and just go do it, they can never be gods, because you must be married by revelation through the prophet.” (WSJ 11/1/95)"


FLDS Beliefs 101 (http://flds101.blogspot.com/2008/05/flds-beliefs-101-arranged-marriages.html)

[juliekan]

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/hamilton/20080603.html

"The Texas Supreme Court Affirms that CPS Has Ongoing Jurisdiction"

"The Texas Supreme Court Did Not Clear the Adults at the FLDS Compound of Abuse Claims, Nor Did it Vindicate Any "Rights" on Their Part"


Lotty posted this article on the links site. It is by Professor Hamilton, a Fellow at the Program in Law and Public Affairs at Princeton. It's a great article explaining the Texas Supreme Court Ruling. I enjoyed reading something by a true scholar, not just a media talking head (or just one of us guessing about the legal points ;) )

[juliekan]

Originally posted by evalles

They ended up w/ how many that were actual minors ? Last I heard was 5, someone else said 2.

Now there is one, believed to be confirmed case of sexual abuse.
Is anyone ready to admit that abuse might not have been as rampant as was claimed on the ranch ? [/*]

http://gosanangelo.com/news/2008/jun/05/happy-returns-for-now/

In her motion filed on Monday, Natalie Malonis said of her client that the girl is "an identified sexual abuse victim."

Malonis also said,"There's going to be some evidence before long that gets out into the public domain. There are other children who are similarly situated to mine."

[Carol25]

Originally posted by juliekan


http://gosanangelo.com/news/2008/jun/05/happy-returns-for-now/

In her motion filed on Monday, Natalie Malonis said of her client that the girl is "an identified sexual abuse victim."

Malonis also said,"There's going to be some evidence before long that gets out into the public domain. There are other children who are similarly situated to mine." [/*]
Thanks julikan for the link. Although I didn't read it. I was held by the picture of the child back at the ranch. It's sad, isn't it.

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by juliekan


http://gosanangelo.com/news/2008/jun/05/happy-returns-for-now/

In her motion filed on Monday, Natalie Malonis said of her client that the girl is "an identified sexual abuse victim."

Malonis also said,"There's going to be some evidence before long that gets out into the public domain. There are other children who are similarly situated to mine." [/*]

Thanks for that link. Most appreciated.

Same website has a brief article about the indictments that are expected to follow & a quote from Sheriff Doran.

http://gosanangelo.com/news/2008/jun/03/schleicher-county-sheriff-expects-indictments-in/

Doran. . . told the Standard-Times that controversial photos released of sect leader Warren Jeffs deeply kissing the 12-year-old daughter of ranch leader Merrill Jessop are "just the beginning" of evidence likely to be released in the case.

[KKKKKKatie]

Originally posted by Imperfect


Hi JK,

I just read that one myself and ITA with your take on it.

I especially liked this:



And I actually stood up and cheered when I read this:

[/*]

AMEN!!!!

[lotty]

Originally posted by juliekan


http://gosanangelo.com/news/2008/jun/05/happy-returns-for-now/

In her motion filed on Monday, Natalie Malonis said of her client that the girl is "an identified sexual abuse victim."

Malonis also said,"There's going to be some evidence before long that gets out into the public domain. There are other children who are similarly situated to mine." [/*]

Here is what keeps bothering me...The girl might be a mother, with someone else caring for her child, does this mean that a member of the FLDS has done the same thing that people are screaming about CPS doing. Someone took this girl's child and cared for and claimed it as their own, for what, to possibly hide a crime. All the while CPS was trying to investigate a crime. Pot, kettle. As always JMO/IMO.

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by juliekan
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/hamilton/20080603.html

[/*]

<bandwidth snip>

:beer: Thanks for finding & posting that link.

So many great points, it's a shame we can't quote the whole thing.

I have been downright disgusted with the inaccurate spins so much of the media have been cranking out about this whole situation. I fully expect the FLDS to promote their own viewpoint, but it is disheartening to see it regurgitated by the media, whom I would hope would be somewhat interested in actually educating their audience on what the laws allow.

Excerpt. . .

“Code prohibits interference with an investigation, and a person who relocates a residence or conceals a child with the intent to interfere with an investigation commits an offense.”

[juliekan]

Originally posted by Imperfect
Pulled this over from the links thread:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/metro/5817593.html



Putting aside for a moment how proud I feel about those big, strong, protective family men -- the eternal ''gods' of the sect who are the only entrance to heaven for their lowly female counterparts -- I have to say that I'm very encouraged that these polygamist baby daddies are running like scared little rabbits as fast and far away from LE, and therefore the adolescent girls of the sect, as possible.

Okay - that was the world's longest sentence. :D [/*]

From this link: "Two weeks ago at their children's custody hearings, a number of mothers, including a wife of YFZ leader Merrill Jessop, testified that their spouses had disappeared, leaving no forwarding information"

Now for the humor...last night Bratlings posted this response:
"who do you call first to find a missing husband when you have 10,000 relatives?"

:lol:

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by Bratlings



Big deal... as long as they are adults. :shrug: Many cultures practice arranged marriages. In fact in "Open court" right now there is a thread devoted to that and no harsh criticisms like here. [/*]

How old are the couple in question in the thread you are referring to? IIRC, they are both 40+ years old.

In nearly 6 years, I have used this emoticon twice. But your comparison warrants it.

:punch:

I'm ashamed of you - or for you - that you would equate an coerced 'marriage' of an adolescent female to an adult male 20, 30, 40+ years her senior to the situation we have read about it in the thread on OC.

[Ladyhawk]

Originally posted by Bratlings



Big deal... as long as they are adults. :shrug: Many cultures practice arranged marriages. In fact in "Open court" right now there is a thread devoted to that and no harsh criticisms like here. [/*]

I really don't think I am making a harsh criticism of anything with this post....just presenting information that explains why the FLDS claims every marriage is consentual....

[evalles]

Originally posted by juliekan
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/hamilton/20080603.html

"The Texas Supreme Court Affirms that CPS Has Ongoing Jurisdiction"

"The Texas Supreme Court Did Not Clear the Adults at the FLDS Compound of Abuse Claims, Nor Did it Vindicate Any "Rights" on Their Part"


Lotty posted this article on the links site. It is by Professor Hamilton, a Fellow at the Program in Law and Public Affairs at Princeton. It's a great article explaining the Texas Supreme Court Ruling. I enjoyed reading something by a true scholar, not just a media talking head (or just one of us guessing about the legal points ;) ) [/*]

Who said it did ?
There has to be an investigation before they can be cleared of abuse claims.
We know they were accused.
The appeals court said they didn't have the right to take them based on the evidence they had. They didn't meet the 3 criteria needed for removal.
It stands to reason,that if they didn't have sufficient evidence and they took them anyway, this was a violation of their rights.
I don't care if they investigate and find abuse and deal with it in accordance with the law. I care that they took the kids without showing they were in immediate danger as required by law.
And, this is one interpretation of the order, there are many.

But, based on this article, do you now think the higher courts were right ?

[KKKKKKatie]

Originally posted by juliekan


From this link: "Two weeks ago at their children's custody hearings, a number of mothers, including a wife of YFZ leader Merrill Jessop, testified that their spouses had disappeared, leaving no forwarding information"

Now for the humor...last night Bratlings posted this response:
"who do you call first to find a missing husband when you have 10,000 relatives?"

:lol: [/*]

Yep...that Bratlings is a laugh a minute :D

[juliekan]

http://www.abpnews.com/3214.article

Polygamist sect's children sing, write poems to thank Baptists

Sounds like the foster care was excellent!

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by Imperfect

I have to say that I'm very encouraged that these polygamist baby daddies are running like scared little rabbits as fast and far away from LE, and therefore the adolescent girls of the sect, as possible.

[/*]

<bandwidth snip>

My guess is that a few of them are trying to figure out how best to present "the turkey baster defense" when it is revealed that they have fathered children with females who were clearly unable by law to consent to sexual activity.

Second guess is that some of them are furiously planning on how to get out of the country (if they haven't done so already).

[evalles]

Originally posted by lotty


Here is what keeps bothering me...The girl might be a mother, with someone else caring for her child, does this mean that a member of the FLDS has done the same thing that people are screaming about CPS doing. Someone took this girl's child and cared for and claimed it as their own, for what, to possibly hide a crime. All the while CPS was trying to investigate a crime. Pot, kettle. As always JMO/IMO. [/*]

The differnce is we should be able to expect CPS to follow the law.
In one report, her attorney said there was no reason to believe the girl had a child, so who knows.
If true, there's no way of knowing if the girl allowed someone else to take care of the baby.
The baby is likely with family.
Big difference between CPS placing hundreds of kids with total strangers and the baby of a teen mom staying with family.
CPS committed a crime when it took over 400 children without satisfying the 3 mandates required by Texas law. They're now, working overtime to cover it up.

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by evalles



It stands to reason,that if they didn't have sufficient evidence and they took them anyway, this was a violation of their rights.
[/*]

<bandwidth snip>

There is a shortened CV about the person who wrote that article.

Would you care to post yours?

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/hamilton/

Professor Hamilton is an internationally recognized expert on constitutional and copyright law. She is frequently asked to advise Congress and state legislatures on the constitutionality of pending legislation and to consult in cases before the United States Supreme Court.

This is from her original article -

Moreover, neither the Texas Supreme Court nor the lower appellate court ruled on whether the parents have any “rights,” constitutional or otherwise – a point the Texas Supreme Court stated explicitly. To the contrary, both decisions were state law rulings on the sufficiency of the evidence to date to take all of the children at once.

Ever heard of the saying "if you find yourself in a hole - stop digging"?

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by Imperfect


Quite the predicament, I'd say. :read: [/*]

<snipped>

Warren's going to have to have some non-stop revelations on those reassignment pairings. Those closest to him, the ones most in his favor, are likely to have been given some of the youngest females. I think there is a strong possibility that his closest allies will either be leaving the country or occupying their own cells.

and when that happens, look for a coup

[evalles]

Imperfect,

The part you stood up and cheered to was the writer's opionion and not part of the dissent written by the judge.

This gives a little more of the opinion written by one of the dissenting judges.

http://messengerandadvocate.wordpress.com/2008/05/29/texas-supreme-court-upholds-lower-court-flds-ruling/

Let's not forget that the dissenters lost, 6-3 and majority rules.

[evalles]

Originally posted by juliekan
http://www.abpnews.com/3214.article

Polygamist sect's children sing, write poems to thank Baptists

Sounds like the foster care was excellent! [/*]


I agree, and these were obviously good, well behaved children.
This is usually a product of their upbringing.

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by Imperfect


'Turkey baster defense'. ROFL! :D

Or ... here comes the immaculate conception, FLDS style!

Or ... maybe the prophet WILLED those pregnancies from his jail cell ... though a revelation. Yeah, THAT's the ticket.

:D [/*]

No doubt they would claim it if they could. Now if they can find any attorneys willing to promote those ideas in court . . .

:D

In all seriousness, the high incidence of fumarase deficiency births is a direct result of the overwhelming control Warren Jeffs has exerted on his followers. They have all shown complete & utter disregard to the medical personnel who have tried for YEARS to help them reduce the numbers. They are willfully ignorant to the science of genetics - because to become more informed would undermine the divine authority of Warren to decide, through revelation, who should reproduce with whom.

Classic examples of "if the facts do not support the theory, they must be disregarded".

Tragic.

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by Roux


From the article: Willie said the girl called him asking for another atty because Malonis was interested in pursuing her own agenda and not the best interest of her client.

That is so patently ridiculous and you'd think with what's about to be revealed that Willie would stop his lies. Maybe the order keeping the girl away from her father and Raymond Jessop should also have included Willie Jessop. [/*]

That's actually NOT so patently ridiculous about Malonis. Trust me.

[lotty]

Originally posted by Imperfect


'Turkey baster defense'. ROFL! :D

Or ... here comes the immaculate conception, FLDS style!

Or ... maybe the prophet WILLED those pregnancies from his jail cell ... though a revelation. Yeah, THAT's the ticket.

:D [/*]
IMO, sadly...

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy107.html

Peterson and other sources say Black was brought before a state grand jury last April, where he testified that the Stubbs sisters' pregnancies were a result of artificial insemination.

"He's saying he impregnated them with a syringe," Peterson says.

Authorities confirm that Black is claiming the "turkey-baster" defense.

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by Bratlings



Or maybe she was willingly married at a legal age and the State has branded her a sex abuse victim against her will. [/*]

Why would her own attorney work against her client's interests? Her attorney cannot have evidence of legal marriage & ignore that or represent that it didn't exist.

[evalles]

37 years old, listed as 18 or younger and refused an attorney !!


When Sarah first was taken from the ranch with her children, Texas officials said she was 18 or younger. Sarah wasn't allowed to have her own attorney until her age was verified through two official sources, she adds.
"Do you know how old I am?" Sarah said Monday. "I'm 37 years old tomorrow! I kind of thought, well, as much as I don't like what you are doing, that is one of the nicest compliments. I had to either laugh or cry, and so I laughed."

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700231372,00.html?pg=2

[Roux]

Originally posted by SavannahStar


That's actually NOT so patently ridiculous about Malonis. Trust me. [/*]

You seem to infer that you have inside information. Have you had personal experience with atty Malonis?

[lotty]

Originally posted by Bratlings



Black is in Canada and not relevant to this case. [/*]
http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy107.html
Meanwhile, the Arizona AG's office filed a complaint in Mohave County Superior Court on February 27, charging Colorado City-area polygamist Orson William Black Jr. with five felony counts of sexual misconduct with two girls.
:confused:

[Roux]

Originally posted by Bratlings



I believe the Baptists being referred to were the shelter workers not the foster care people. [/*]

I don't understand your statement. The Baptist ranch workers who took care of the children were being thanked. The article didn't say anything about "foster care people."

[juliekan]

Originally posted by juliekan
http://www.abpnews.com/3214.article

Polygamist sect's children sing, write poems to thank Baptists

Sounds like the foster care was excellent! [/*]

No Bratlings, the children were "entrusted to the Texas Baptist child-care agency" when the children were put in foster care. It was the Baptist Child and Family Services Youth Ranch in Gonzales County.

I see from other posts that I should have said caretakers, not foster care? Whatever...

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by Bratlings



Black is in Canada and not relevant to this case. [/*]

He came from the same FLDS group as Warren Jeffs.

Last I read, he was known to be in Chihuahua, Mexico.

[juliekan]

Originally posted by Bratlings





If YOU read the article it says the Baptist workers are the SAME ones who have been helping to care for them since they were FIRST removed from the YFZ ranch, that would be the original ones and NOT foster care. [/*]

I posted that link so we could be happy that these children were obviously well taken care of...not to argue...

[lotty]

Originally posted by Bratlings



Orson Black is who were talking about? I thought we were talking about Winston Blackmore. [/*]

Went back and checked my posts, they say Black. It's ok I understand, I make mistakes as well. They are frequently pointed out here.

[Carol25]

Originally posted by Bratlings



Not so fast! No matter her objectivity her own personal beliefs will factor into her decisions. That attorney is working in the direction that SHE feels is in the childs best interest not necessarily in what the girl wants or believes is in her best interest. [/*]
I assume this attorney knows the girl will be testifying. It IS HER client.

[Carol25]

Originally posted by Imperfect


Point being, the children obviously had some good experiences away from the ranch. :) [/*]
The pictures I saw of a couple of children leaving with their parents didn't appear to be overly elated. The picture of the boy crying with the little girl back at the ranch was very sad.

[Carol25]

Originally posted by Bratlings



I doubt that, if she does I think it will be less than willingly. [/*]
Then she can say that in front of the judge. We will have to wait and see.

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by Bratlings



Not so fast! No matter her objectivity her own personal beliefs will factor into her decisions. That attorney is working in the direction that SHE feels is in the childs best interest not necessarily in what the girl wants or believes is in her best interest. [/*]

Oh I do KNOW for a fact her own personal beliefs will factor into her decisions. Yes, absolutely. :cool:

[juliekan]

Originally posted by SavannahStar


That's actually NOT so patently ridiculous about Malonis. Trust me. [/*]

Explain, please?

[walton]

Dan Barlow was 21 when Arizona authorities intent on wiping out polygamy descended on Short Creek, as the FLDS community on the state border with Utah was then called. He had children taken into Arizona custody then - and today has children and grandchildren who were taken into custody in the Texas raid.
A crucial difference is that mothers and siblings remained together in 1953, he said.

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9490673?source=rv



I don't get it. If they felt the pain 53 years ago, why would these people knowingly put themselves in the very same situation that could cause this pain against their children?

I just don't get it.

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by juliekan


Explain, please? [/*]

Not all guardian ad litems assigned in this case think alike. Did you read any of the comments made by some of them regarding the last ruling? It was noteworthy that all did NOT agree with the ruling, some did and some didn't.... I believe some truly have the interest of the children at heart, while also believing in the justice system and rule of law in our country. Others are completely biased against the FLDS and take their jobs to heart insofar as also wishing that the FLDS as a community and as a whole could be completely eradicated. (As do some on this forum and others.) I believe Malonis fits in this category, from what I have read about her and her feelings about the FLDS. Others may think differently, that is just my own opinion based on what I have read. Hope that sufficiently explains my previous posts for you.

[FoxySly]

Originally posted by Mimi428


<bandwidth snip>

That practice began with Joseph Smith, the original prophet. I seriously doubt the FLDS will ever turn their backs on something like that. Should one of their modern prophets have a 'revelation' to practice something different, there is likely to be a splintering off from that person.

In their society, women can't even get a place in heaven without the direct assistance of a man. They are literally nothing without a man, by their way of thinking.

JMO [/*]

Sadly, your 2nd paragraph is still true for all mormons even though most don't know it, but there still has NOT been a 'Revelation' from any of their prophets to change that. Or the part that the man will become a 'god' and have many wives after death.

Sly

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by FoxySly


Sadly, your 2nd paragraph is still true for all mormons even though most don't know it, but there still has NOT been a 'Revelation' from any of their prophets to change that. Or the part that the man will become a 'god' and have many wives after death.

Sly [/*]

I know you are exactly right. It never ceases to amaze me when members of the LDS claim to have no knowledge about essential, doctrinal Mormon beliefs.

You have my enduring respect for all your posts, over several years, about that subject. I have seen how viciously you have been personally maligned for speaking the truth.

:beer:

[evalles]

Originally posted by Imperfect


Hi Walton :seeya:

IMO, the sect leaders don't have the lives of the children as their first priority. It's all about the men - the women and children exist for their purposes.

With regard to that article ... I find myself wishing that the media would work a little harder to draw some comparisons between children raised in average, functioning American homes and children raised in the FLDS - especially the girls.

Let's compare social skills. Educational achievements and opportunities. Ability to think independently and make decisions. Opportunities for creative pursuits. Athletic abilities. World views with regard to people who are different from them. Knowledge of and compassion for animals. I'll stop there.

I'm a little weary of hearing about the healthy FLDS meals. I think that's swell, but there must be scant little else good to report about life in the sect.

I feel great compassion for how these kids surely feel after the raid. But IMO it's short-sighted of the media to take this snapshot in time and completely ignore what came before the raid, and what will surely continue now that it's over. [/*]

It's news, why shouldn't they photograph it ? As far as comparing these kids to children in regular families, I think there's good with the bad. For example, I bet girls that stay in the FLDS don't do drugs or smoke or pick up guys in bars, they'll probably never have an abortion or drive drunk or get in a fist fight. They'll believe in hard work,faith, and doing for others. Aside from the polygamy, they have a much stronger foundation than most.

[juliekan]

Originally posted by Imperfect


Hi Walton :seeya:

IMO, the sect leaders don't have the lives of the children as their first priority. It's all about the men - the women and children exist for their purposes.

With regard to that article ... I find myself wishing that the media would work a little harder to draw some comparisons between children raised in average, functioning American homes and children raised in the FLDS - especially the girls.

Let's compare social skills. Educational achievements and opportunities. Ability to think independently and make decisions. Opportunities for creative pursuits. Athletic abilities. World views with regard to people who are different from them. Knowledge of and compassion for animals. I'll stop there.

I'm a little weary of hearing about the healthy FLDS meals. I think that's swell, but there must be scant little else good to report about life in the sect.

I feel great compassion for how these kids surely feel after the raid. But IMO it's short-sighted of the media to take this snapshot in time and completely ignore what came before the raid, and what will surely continue now that it's over. [/*]

Sorry I didn't write down the links, but I read 2 different articles today about the parents picking up their kids from shelters. At one they talked about the kids taking their bikes and toys they had received when they went home. Another article had one of the workers lamenting the fact that the kids weren't allowed by their parents to take any of their toys when they left. I wish they all could have kept a few toys...life shouldn't be all work for ANY age person.

[walton]

Originally posted by Imperfect


Hi Walton :seeya:

IMO, the sect leaders don't have the lives of the children as their first priority. It's all about the men - the women and children exist for their purposes.

With regard to that article ... I find myself wishing that the media would work a little harder to draw some comparisons between children raised in average, functioning American homes and children raised in the FLDS - especially the girls.

Let's compare social skills. Educational achievements and opportunities. Ability to think independently and make decisions. Opportunities for creative pursuits. Athletic abilities. World views with regard to people who are different from them. Knowledge of and compassion for animals. I'll stop there.

I'm a little weary of hearing about the healthy FLDS meals. I think that's swell, but there must be scant little else good to report about life in the sect.

I feel great compassion for how these kids surely feel after the raid. But IMO it's short-sighted of the media to take this snapshot in time and completely ignore what came before the raid, and what will surely continue now that it's over. [/*]


The media didn't put those kids in the spotlight though. The parents did.

[walton]

Originally posted by Imperfect


My post wasn't about the photo, Evalles - it was about the content of the article, and many others like it.

I think it's important that children have a solid moral foundation. And I agree that too many in the world today don't have one.

But good moral values and practices can be found in most religions, and in families who belong to no particular faith.

A good moral foundation and the freedom to make your own choices in life are not mutually exclusive.

A good moral foundation doesn't have to be delivered via brainwashing or mind control or lack of education about the outside world. Or by identical ways of dressing, coiffing and speaking. Or by abuse.

The situation the FLDS women and children are in is not by choice ... and I don't care how many smiling robo-moms are trotted out by the sect to tell me otherwise.

Without education, exposure and experience, people can NOT know about all that they might become and do in their lives. They are NOT free.

And this is the United States of America, after all. [/*]

I so agree. Wonderful post. :patriot:

Imperfect I have a few questions and I am not sure you can or will anser them but what do you see happening to the Ranch?

The FLDS as a whole? Think they are merging into the Centenial Group? the LDS?

Why do you suppose Shurtleff was talking the way he was?

Where do you suppose Willie E. Jessop fits into the picture?

Do you know where the Allred boys are?

Do you know what is bigger than the raid at the Ranch?

Where is Warren?


If you can answer any or all of these cool. If you decide not to hit on any of them that is ok too. I can respect that.

You know me, I'll just ask another day. :)

[evalles]

Originally posted by Imperfect


My post wasn't about the photo, Evalles - it was about the content of the article, and many others like it.

I think it's important that children have a solid moral foundation. And I agree that too many in the world today don't have one.

But good moral values and practices can be found in most religions, and in families who belong to no particular faith.

A good moral foundation and the freedom to make your own choices in life are not mutually exclusive.

A good moral foundation doesn't have to be delivered via brainwashing or mind control or lack of education about the outside world. Or by identical ways of dressing, coiffing and speaking. Or by abuse.

The situation the FLDS women and children are in is not by choice ... and I don't care how many smiling robo-moms are trotted out by the sect to tell me otherwise.

Without education, exposure and experience, people can NOT know about all that they might become and do in their lives. They are NOT free.

And this is the United States of America, after all. [/*]

Maybe it is their choice. I watched a video on the Captive FLDS site, when LE was searching, there was a woman who was very matter of factly asking him to see a warrant. When LE told her it was served on someone else, she was adamant that SHE should be able to see it. She sure didn't sound subserviant to any man, it sounded like she was in charge.

Maybe you should talk to them personally, let them know what you think and see how they respond.

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by Imperfect


*snipped*

Without education, exposure and experience, people can NOT know about all that they might become and do in their lives. They are NOT free.

And this is the United States of America, after all. [/*]

Oh this is such an erroneous argument!

IMO of course.

Reminds me of the parents who don't take their kids to ANY church at all, because "they should be able to make up their own minds." And conversely, parents who are totally against private (parochial) schools because the children might not get exposure to delinquent children. For Pete's sake! A parent should have the option to raise the child in the way that they feel is RIGHT. When the child is 18, if it was SO bad, SO horrendous, they can "depart" from the ways in which they were raised.

There are PLENTY of women who stay in the FLDS simply because that is their faith, and what they believe in. Who are WE to say their children "must be EXPOSED" to other lifestyles?

I raised my own child and certainly CHOSE what he was allowed to be exposed to. I would hate to think that in this free country of ours I would be forced to do what I did not feel was in the best interest of my child.

[walton]

Originally posted by Imperfect


Agreed. But the media is spinning it like crazy. [/*]

Yeah. But not all of them. jmo

Some people are just headline chasers. They only see the title and after a few days they go for the next headline.

And there are some of us still out there that because of a good journalist/writer/reporter will follow the story thru.

Sometimes it is a photo that captures a certain persons interest. It hits that inner part that makes you want to read the story. Sometimes it is the story that makes you want to see a picture.

I've been thru two floods and during that time we were so busy that we didn't know what the rest of the area was going thru. It wasn't until many months later that I actually saw the news coverage of it all. Kinda put things into perspective. It wasn't all about me. It happened to other people too. Know what I mean?

Dan Barlow talked about his time during the raid of 53. He still went ahead and continued to break the law. He had how many wives? How many children? Got kicked out of the FLDS. Now his kids and grandkids are going thru the same dang thing.

Maybe, when these kids get older they will see/remember that they don't want their kids to go thru it.

[evalles]

Originally posted by SavannahStar


Oh this is such an erroneous argument!

IMO of course.

Reminds me of the parents who don't take their kids to ANY church at all, because "they should be able to make up their own minds." And conversely, parents who are totally against private (parochial) schools because the children might not get exposure to delinquent children. For Pete's sake! A parent should have the option to raise the child in the way that they feel is RIGHT. When the child is 18, if it was SO bad, SO horrendous, they can "depart" from the ways in which they were raised.

There are PLENTY of women who stay in the FLDS simply because that is their faith, and what they believe in. Who are WE to say their children "must be EXPOSED" to other lifestyles?

I raised my own child and certainly CHOSE what he was allowed to be exposed to. I would hate to think that in this free country of ours I would be forced to do what I did not feel was in the best interest of my child. [/*]

You're right. Aren't we supposed to shelter our children ?

[evalles]

Originally posted by Imperfect


SStar,

You're entitled to your opinion - that's what these message boards are all about, far as I know. I'm not crazy about the labeling, but I'll live.

As a counterpoint to your argument, let's look at the mother of Elissa Wall (she's the young woman who wrote the book 'Stolen Innocence'). (And I hope for purposes of this discussion, we can assume that Elissa is not a liar or any of the other unkind things sect ex-members/escapees/survivors have been called.)

In a nutshell, Elissa's mother allowed Warren Jeffs to force her 14 year-old child to marry her (Elissa's) 19 year-old cousin. And Elissa, unlike many I'm sure, put up quite a fuss, up to including speaking personally with Jeffs about her unwillingness to be married off to her cousin. Aside from the fact that the girl was only 14, Elissa didn't even like the young man, AND he was closely related, genetically speaking.

Nor did Elissa's mother, having handed the future of her child off to Jeffs, prepare the girl for what to expect with regard to sex. The kid went on to have multiple spontaneous abortions, among other things, before she was able to escape her nightmare.

From what we can gather, from multiple sources and first-hand stories of those who've been there, the Elissa Wall story is common in the FLDS.

My first question: should Elissa Wall's mother have been allowed, in your words, 'the option to raise the child in the way that [she felt] was right'??

My second question: what were Elissa Wall's options and rights? [/*]

I haven't heard of more than a handful of "escapees" and while their stories are disturbing, I'm not sure they're common.

[juliekan]

Originally posted by evalles


I haven't heard of more than a handful of "escapees" and while their stories are disturbing, I'm not sure they're common. [/*]

Does some disturbing story have to become common, before we do something to help them?

[lotty]

Originally posted by walton


I so agree. Wonderful post. :patriot:

Imperfect I have a few questions and I am not sure you can or will anser them but what do you see happening to the Ranch?

The FLDS as a whole? Think they are merging into the Centenial Group? the LDS?

Why do you suppose Shurtleff was talking the way he was?

Where do you suppose Willie E. Jessop fits into the picture?

Do you know where the Allred boys are?

Do you know what is bigger than the raid at the Ranch?

Where is Warren?


If you can answer any or all of these cool. If you decide not to hit on any of them that is ok too. I can respect that.

You know me, I'll just ask another day. :) [/*]

Hello Walton,
Very good questions! Have you noticed the UAB is really trying to distance themselves from the FLDS?

Willie E. Jessop, now that is a "plate full" to deal with.

BTW have you read Judge Conn's decision on dropping two of the incest charges? Absolutely makes me ill.

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by evalles


I haven't heard of more than a handful of "escapees" and while their stories are disturbing, I'm not sure they're common. [/*]

What, specifically, do you believe is NOT common?

Each & every woman & child in the FLDS has their lives CONTROLLED. No female in the FLDS has the right to refuse 'marriage'. The majority of females & males have no choice in what sexual partners they will have assigned to them. No female of childbearing potential has the right to use birth control. 'Families' are put together & taken apart by the whims of the current prophet. Parents have no say in whether their adolescent son is dropped off in the middle of the highway or whether their adolescent daughter is handed to be raped & impregnated by whatever male is in the prophet's favor at the time.

Do you actually believe the identical clothing & hairstyles are optional? What do you believe would happen to ANY of the FLDS women we saw if they chose to wear something different?

A controlled, restricted environment such as is lived by the FLDS isn't 'sheltered' - it's the equivalent of a prison - where what you eat, when you sleep, what you wear, where you go is decided FOR you.

Sheriff Doran, who has had the closest contact with the YFZ group had NO IDEA, after 4 years of how many people actually were on that compound. How/why do you think that happened? How was it that no one in town ever saw the women & children?

Not wanting your own child to fall prey to some of the 'evils' of our modern society does NOT give any of us the right to raise them as lemmings, ready to follow the leader over the cliff.

[evalles]

Originally posted by juliekan


Does some disturbing story have to become common, before we do something to help them? [/*]


They're already out, and Elissa Walls was awarded a settlement. She should be set for life.
What do you want to happen ? Do you want those kids to be taken from their mothers again ?

[evalles]

Each & every woman & child in the FLDS has their lives CONTROLLED.

__________________________________________________ __

Mimi,

This is just not true.
Many have left.

[evalles]

Originally posted by Imperfect


And I can't be sure they're not. [/*]

That's why there needs to be evidence in each individual case.

Any word on the endictments ?

[walton]

Originally posted by SavannahStar


Oh this is such an erroneous argument!

IMO of course.

Reminds me of the parents who don't take their kids to ANY church at all, because "they should be able to make up their own minds." And conversely, parents who are totally against private (parochial) schools because the children might not get exposure to delinquent children. For Pete's sake! A parent should have the option to raise the child in the way that they feel is RIGHT. When the child is 18, if it was SO bad, SO horrendous, they can "depart" from the ways in which they were raised.

There are PLENTY of women who stay in the FLDS simply because that is their faith, and what they believe in. Who are WE to say their children "must be EXPOSED" to other lifestyles?

I raised my own child and certainly CHOSE what he was allowed to be exposed to. I would hate to think that in this free country of ours I would be forced to do what I did not feel was in the best interest of my child. [/*]

"Leave me alone. It is in the best interest for the boy."
words my Grandfather spoke as he held my dad by his feet over an open well.

"Leave me alone. It is in the best interest for the boy."
words again spoken by my grandfather as he pulled my dads ear so hard it ripped and had to be sewn back on.

"Leave me alone. It is in the best interest for the boy."
words spoken by a woman who horsewhipped her 6 year old son so bad that he was hosptialized. Couldn't see the white of his skin for blood and welts.


Abuse comes in all shapes and forms as does the abuser.

Thank goodness this is a Free Country and we have the laws that we do. The laws are there to protect our young and old alike.

jmo

[walton]

Originally posted by lotty


Hello Walton,
Very good questions! Have you noticed the UAB is really trying to distance themselves from the FLDS?

Willie E. Jessop, now that is a "plate full" to deal with.

BTW have you read Judge Conn's decision on dropping two of the incest charges? Absolutely makes me ill. [/*]

Hi lotty

I've seen the articles stating that they are not like the FLDS. They might dress different. They might talk a little different. But where do you suppose the UAB got its start?

I'll bring ya a couple of links concerning the UAB.

Willie E. Jessop has struck a deal. With whom I am not quite sure yet.

I don't like Judge Steven Conn.

[walton]

Originally posted by Mimi428


**snipped**

Not wanting your own child to fall prey to some of the 'evils' of our modern society does NOT give any of us the right to raise them as lemmings, ready to follow the leader over the cliff. [/*]

Wow.

Did you know that has actually happened a few times? I can get the link if need be.

There was also talk about the Big Day and they all were suppose to be ready. Some packed their bags and lunches and got dressed in their Sunday best. ( The link to this one would take me time to get but it is there.

Anyway the Big Day never did come and they all went home. They were told that they didn't pray hard enough or long enough.

[walton]

Originally posted by Bratlings



You mean when they fit your agenda and judgment, because you sure dont respect a parents right to choose how to raise their children. You sure think it was OK to take someones child in violation of the law with no evidence. [/*]

Evening Bratlings :seeya:

I think it was more than ok that those that are trying to protect the young and the old are allowed to use their judgement right then and there and do what they need to do.

[walton]

Originally posted by Imperfect


Hiya Walton

Interesting questions! I'll take a shot at them, but that's all it is ... a shot ... in much darkness.
[/*]

:) Thank you much for your reply.

I don't think Warren is in jail.

I think the FLDS will either merge with the Timpson bunch or Joseph Smith will talk to Willie E. Jessop again and they will slide in with the LDS.

For Willie to make that statement is such BS that even I am offended by it. Willie might be a ok bodyguard but he is a really bad actor. imo

Shurtleff is another puppet. What I wanna know is who is pulling the strings.

Do you have any idea whose names were on the lists that Warren had when he was arrested?

[walton]

I'll stop back later. I've gotta do a little homework.

:D

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by walton


I don't think Warren is in jail.

[/*]

Really? Wow!

Why not? How could he have gotten out? Who could have orchestrated that?

My head is spinning just to contemplate it. Whew.



:eek:

[Carol25]

This may have been posted. If so, my apologies.

Salt Lake Tribune, June 6, 2008

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_9485607

. - The Associated Press
Source: Associated Press

[juliekan]

I wonder what a "personal" ruling would have been in Judge Conn's house? If it had been his family. :sigh icon: I guess it is good that he follows the letter of the law.

[lotty]

Originally posted by walton


Wow.

Did you know that has actually happened a few times? I can get the link if need be.

There was also talk about the Big Day and they all were suppose to be ready. Some packed their bags and lunches and got dressed in their Sunday best. ( The link to this one would take me time to get but it is there.

Anyway the Big Day never did come and they all went home. They were told that they didn't pray hard enough or long enough. [/*]
All true and spiritual marriages were suspended...because they were sinful and not worthy. Got the link on that one as well.

[lotty]

Originally posted by juliekan
I wonder what a "personal" ruling would have been in Judge Conn's house? If it had been his family. :sigh icon: I guess it is good that he follows the letter of the law. [/*]

I'm not sure what a "personal" ruling would have been, but Arizona law makers should probably get off their behinds and change this before it ends up with something they regret. How does this happen? It is only incest if both parties are over the age of 18? Can't wrap my head around it. JMO/IMO

[juliekan]

Originally posted by lotty


I'm not sure what a "personal" ruling would have been, but Arizona law makers should probably get off their behinds and change this before it ends up with something they regret. How does this happen? It is only incest if both parties are over the age of 18? Can't wrap my head around it. JMO/IMO [/*]

Yeah, how often do you see THAT in the news, incest with 2 adults?

[lotty]

Just because...and remember this was written in 2003.


http://helpthechildbrides.com/articles/prescottcourier.htm
Some thoughts on polygamy 9/8/03

There¹s been a startling development within the polygamist community up in Colorado City/Hildale. The FLDS prophet, Warren Jeffs, announced last month that all church services would be suspended immediately, and he would no longer perform polygamous marriages. Both suspensions are to last indefinitely. Imagine the shock.
The prophet said that he had received a revelation from God telling him that his members had been disobedient. Jeffs sermonized, 'Until this people honor the word of God, this privilege (spiritual marriage) is withdrawn from them.'

[Details]

I think the reason you must be an adult for incest charges is an assumption that if the other is not an adult, the underage sex charges will be enough worse that incest doesn't matter.

[FurthurBB]

Originally posted by juliekan
http://www.abpnews.com/3214.article

Polygamist sect's children sing, write poems to thank Baptists

Sounds like the foster care was excellent! [/*]

Wow! That was a great article, thanks for posting it. IMO

[lotty]

Originally posted by Details
I think the reason you must be an adult for incest charges is an assumption that if the other is not an adult, the underage sex charges will be enough worse that incest doesn't matter. [/*]

What I've looked up says rape is by force, incest generally by consent. Depending on the state you live in, one or the other or both can apply depending on the circumstances. Huh, learn something new.

[juliekan]

Originally posted by lotty
Just because...and remember this was written in 2003.


http://helpthechildbrides.com/articles/prescottcourier.htm
Some thoughts on polygamy 9/8/03

There¹s been a startling development within the polygamist community up in Colorado City/Hildale. The FLDS prophet, Warren Jeffs, announced last month that all church services would be suspended immediately, and he would no longer perform polygamous marriages. Both suspensions are to last indefinitely. Imagine the shock.
The prophet said that he had received a revelation from God telling him that his members had been disobedient. Jeffs sermonized, 'Until this people honor the word of God, this privilege (spiritual marriage) is withdrawn from them.' [/*]

Wow, great article, lots of info. Thanks. If I wasn't so tired, I'd have a lot of opinions to post. Maybe manana...

[lotty]

Originally posted by walton


Hi lotty

I've seen the articles stating that they are not like the FLDS. They might dress different. They might talk a little different. But where do you suppose the UAB got its start?

I'll bring ya a couple of links concerning the UAB.

Willie E. Jessop has struck a deal. With whom I am not quite sure yet.

I don't like Judge Steven Conn. [/*]

Yeah, I got your point on this one. They had an article recently in the paper about how they follow all of the laws, except polygamy.
(End of May)

Since there is a family tie there (with UAB, Timpson), Willie might try to make it look like they are trying to assimilate.

Even Winston Blackmore backed off of quite a few of Warren's rules after he was ousted. Women can wear store bought clothes, etc., etc., etc.

[juliekan]

Uh, my religion only had church on Sundays and Wednesdays...we never had a "big day." Please do not post as an expert on all religions without posting your credentials and, if necessary, links. Thanks, Bratlings.

[juliekan]

Originally posted by Bratlings



Really? You dont believe that Christ is returning or for some coming for the first time? That is what the "big day" is you know. [/*]

That apparently is the "big day" to you. Once again, if you are an expert on what all religions do, please show credentials and links.

Besides, I'm likely to be outta here before your "big day" occurs.

[juliekan]

Originally posted by Bratlings
I am really dying to know what kind of Church you belong to that doesnt believe in the "big day" of Christ. [/*]

Yeah I'm dying...too

[juliekan]

Originally posted by Bratlings



Every religion has that "big day" they just dont usually set a specific date to it. Then again who cares if they do as long as they "all went home" afterwards? Seems safe to me because they actually DID just go home afterwards. :shrug:


So I would then ask Walton what should we do about this? Make it illegal to set dates? Or take that as a sign of mental illness and immediately remove their kids?
:lol: [/*]

You didn't say most...you said "EVERY"

[juliekan]

Originally posted by Bratlings



They do ALL have a "big day" not all of them reference Christ. I challenge you to find just one that doesnt have a significant day that is predicted or prophetized. [/*]

You're the expert, lets see credentials and links

[juliekan]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existentialism#Perspectives_on_God

Termed a "philosophical movement", certain well known people such as Ayn Rand, Jean-Paul Sartre, and Albert Camus adopted this as their religion.

And I am not doing any more research for your lazy you know what after you have insulted me.

[juliekan]

There was 2 minutes between the time I posted the site on existentialism and when your reply showed up. I always knew you didn't actually read the information. That was one long article and there was no way you actually tried to see the point I was making.
I apologize to CW for letting myself be baited into this OT. Promise not to let it happen again. :seeya:

[SavannahStar]

Can someone tell me what a half cousin is?

I've been intrigued for a long time about first cousins, second cousins, etc., and then the "removed" terminology (first cousin once removed, etc.) and finally learned the difference recently.

But.....what's a half cousin?

[walton]

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy15.html

Stockpiles of food are being gathered for the big event, which dissidents in town have derisively labeled ``the pickup.'' And polygamous families have scurried to build additions onto their homes for members returning from different parts of the country.

Copyright © 2008






Not real familiar with other Religions and their End of the World talk but do they also pack suitcases and cook food for the Big Day? just curious.

[walton]

http://thehopeorg.org/liftoff_pnt_rapture_and_rupture.html

While he doesn't fear for his safety, Bateman believes Warren Jeffs is serious about his "lifting up" teachings. He cites the church leadership's order that as many as 500 children from polygamous families stay home from public schools and that loyalists sever contacts with even mild dissenters like him.

"They are trying," Bateman says, "to get rid of any influence that might keep them here [on Earth]."

One dissenter is tougher on the new policy. She calls it a form of "ethnic cleansing."



Pull kids out of schools?

[walton]

http://thehopeorg.org/liftoff_IUK_banked_on_doomsday.html



The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints gladly used high-interest funds to finance suspect business ventures. There was the water melon farm on which not a single water melon was planted, and plans to convert old military barracks into homes fell through when they found lead paint and asbestos inside. Now, though, the tap has been turned off. After years of obliging the sect, the local Bank of Ephraim has been forced to shut down after state regulators found it could no longer handle all the loans it had extended.

©independent.co.uk

Need a little cash for the trip?

[lotty]

Originally posted by SavannahStar


Can someone tell me what a half cousin is?

I've been intrigued for a long time about first cousins, second cousins, etc., and then the "removed" terminology (first cousin once removed, etc.) and finally learned the difference recently.

But.....what's a half cousin? [/*]

You would have a grandfather or grandmother in common, but not both. The way I read the Az decision. JMO

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by lotty


You would have a grandfather or grandmother in common, but not both. The way I read the Az decision. JMO [/*]

TY. So they are half second cousins?

I found this on wikipedia:

Half cousins
Half-siblings share only one parent. Extrapolating from that, if one of John's parents and one of Mary's parents are half-siblings, then John and Mary are half-first cousins. The half-sibling of each of their respective parents would be their half-aunt or half-uncle but these terms, although technically specific, are rarely used in practise. While it would not be unusual to hear of another's half-brother, or half-sister, so described, in common usage one would rarely hear of another's half-cousins or half-aunt, so described, and instead hear them described simply as the other's cousin or aunt. And children of half-first cousins are half-second cousins and so on because they would share only one common great-grandparent instead of two.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_chart

[FurthurBB]

Originally posted by juliekan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existentialism#Perspectives_on_God

Termed a "philosophical movement", certain well known people such as Ayn Rand, Jean-Paul Sartre, and Albert Camus adopted this as their religion.

And I am not doing any more research for your lazy you know what after you have insulted me. [/*]

Not to be argumentative, but, existentialism was never really a religion. IMO

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by Bratlings

Whether it be called the "big day" or anything else. The FLDS ARE Christians. :rolleyes: [/*]

<snipped>

Not according to every single solitary Christian apologetics organization.

Here's the first hint on why they are NOT - they believe that men can become gods. That is heretical & definitely NOT a Christian belief. (they have plenty of others, that's just one of the most glaring)

There's more to being a Christian than saying "I'm a Christian".

Also - how do you know that their definition of "big day" is even remotely similar to what is believed in standard Christian theology? For all you or I know, it could mean that Joseph Smith & all their former prophets return to this earth from the planets on which they are gods.

[FurthurBB]

Originally posted by SavannahStar
Can someone tell me what a half cousin is?

I've been intrigued for a long time about first cousins, second cousins, etc., and then the "removed" terminology (first cousin once removed, etc.) and finally learned the difference recently.

But.....what's a half cousin? [/*]

Maybe your parents 1/2 brother/sisiter's child?

[FurthurBB]

Originally posted by walton
http://thehopeorg.org/liftoff_pnt_rapture_and_rupture.html

While he doesn't fear for his safety, Bateman believes Warren Jeffs is serious about his "lifting up" teachings. He cites the church leadership's order that as many as 500 children from polygamous families stay home from public schools and that loyalists sever contacts with even mild dissenters like him.

"They are trying," Bateman says, "to get rid of any influence that might keep them here [on Earth]."

One dissenter is tougher on the new policy. She calls it a form of "ethnic cleansing."



Pull kids out of schools? [/*]

I did not know they attended public school. You learn something new everyday. IMO

[Roux]

Originally posted by Mimi428


<snipped>

Not according to every single solitary Christian apologetics organization.

Here's the first hint on why they are NOT - they believe that men can become gods. That is heretical & definitely NOT a Christian belief. (they have plenty of others, that's just one of the most glaring)

There's more to being a Christian than saying "I'm a Christian".

Also - how do you know that their definition of "big day" is even remotely similar to what is believed in standard Christian theology? For all you or I know, it could mean that Joseph Smith & all their former prophets return to this earth from the planets on which they are gods. [/*]

TY Mimi! It has bothered me so much that the FLDS claim to be Christians when they are so obviously not.

[KKKKKKatie]

Originally posted by Mimi428


<snipped>

Not according to every single solitary Christian apologetics organization.

Here's the first hint on why they are NOT - they believe that men can become gods. That is heretical & definitely NOT a Christian belief. (they have plenty of others, that's just one of the most glaring)

There's more to being a Christian than saying "I'm a Christian".

Also - how do you know that their definition of "big day" is even remotely similar to what is believed in standard Christian theology? For all you or I know, it could mean that Joseph Smith & all their former prophets return to this earth from the planets on which they are gods. [/*]

I have been a Catholic all of my 60 years....never once has a Priest or the Pope declared that God had spoken to them and give a date for the "coming"

The difference is obvious but it doesn't fit some peoples agenda

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by walton
http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy15.html

Stockpiles of food are being gathered for the big event, which dissidents in town have derisively labeled ``the pickup.'' And polygamous families have scurried to build additions onto their homes for members returning from different parts of the country.
[/*]

What a great article, Walton - thanks for posting that link.

I had to smile when I read this part -

`You can imagine the a$$-kissing that's taking place,'' said one woman with relatives in town. ``Stress levels are running high with only 2,500 getting chosen. I'll bet with all the evil thoughts going around, there aren't too many qualified for heaven at this point.''

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by Roux


TY Mimi! It has bothered me so much that the FLDS claim to be Christians when they are so obviously not. [/*]

You are very welcome. Here is just one link to a very large Christian apologetics website - it has a wealth of information, including definitions and explanations on various & sundry religions.

They have an A-Z link on this main page, very helpful in looking up specific groups or people, etc.

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/

On the A-Z main page, they show a group of Color Codes which will appear next to the various entries - I don't think the colors will transfer over - but here is a copy & paste -

Color Codes
On many pages throughout the site a simple color-coding system is used to help you identify the general background of sites, articles and other listings.

Christian
Non-Christian
Secular
Pluralistic
Grey Zone or Offkey
Aberrational, Heretical, Heterodox, Suborthodox or Unorthodox
Academic
Hate Groups
Profess to be Christian but are outside orthodox Christianity.

These keys are meant as handy visual aids - not full-blown theological commentaries. For example, they are helpful to quickly find a site that addresses Scientology from a Christian perspective, or one that deals with Wicca from a non-Christian viewpoint. They are not meant to convey, say, the degree of orthodoxy or heresy.

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by Bratlings


They believe in Christ. They believe he is returning that is the definition of Christian. [/*]

That may be your own personal belief & you are entitled to it. 2000 years of Christian theology disagrees with you.

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/c09a01.html

A cult of Christianity is a group of people, which claiming to be Christian, embraces a particular doctrinal system taught by an individual leader, group of leaders, or organization, which (system) denies (either explicitly or implicitly) one or more of the central doctrines of the Christian faith as taught in the sixty-six books of the Bible.

Much, much more on that page to clarify what they are referring to.

[Mimi428]

And more. . .

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/c45.html

Certain Christian doctrines constitute the core of the faith. Central doctrines include the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the bodily resurrection, the atoning work of Christ on the cross, and salvation by grace through faith. [size=3]These doctrines so comprise the essence of the Christian faith that to remove any of them is to make the belief system non-Christian.


Scripture teaches that the beliefs mentioned above are of central importance (e.g., Matt. 28:19; John 8:24; 1 Cor. 15; Eph. 2:8-10).


Because these central doctrines define the character of Christianity, one cannot be saved and deny these. [/i]

[BorderCollieMom]

Originally posted by SavannahStar
Can someone tell me what a half cousin is?

I've been intrigued for a long time about first cousins, second cousins, etc., and then the "removed" terminology (first cousin once removed, etc.) and finally learned the difference recently.

But.....what's a half cousin? [/*]

I knew I shouldnt of read what this is on Wiki. I'm even more confused now, lol..

Half-siblings share only one parent. Extrapolating from that, if one of John's parents and one of Mary's parents are half-siblings, then John and Mary are half-first cousins. The half-sibling of each of their respective parents would be their half-aunt or half-uncle but these terms, although technically specific, are rarely used in practise. While it would not be unusual to hear of another's half-brother, or half-sister, so described, in common usage one would rarely hear of another's half-cousins or half-aunt, so described, and instead hear them described simply as the other's cousin or aunt. And children of half-first cousins are half-second cousins and so on because they would share only one common great-grandparent instead of two.

Get it ? lol...I dont. I really wish I did because I have NO full blood siblings but I have 2 HALF siblings. Somewhere in there I would think I have half cousins...right ?

[walton]

Originally posted by Mimi428


What a great article, Walton - thanks for posting that link.

I had to smile when I read this part -

`You can imagine the a$$-kissing that's taking place,'' said one woman with relatives in town. ``Stress levels are running high with only 2,500 getting chosen. I'll bet with all the evil thoughts going around, there aren't too many qualified for heaven at this point.'' [/*]

:D Yeah, me too.

Have to wonder what the heck they were thinking when they did all that canning. Packing lunches and suitcases. Not to offend anyones religion but it just cracks me up.

I could just see the trip list getting bigger. Air mattresses, pillows, do you bring shampoo and rinse ? how about toothpaste? Mint or reg? lol

But on a serious note, I just can't shake this whole thing about the 3 wives. (or 22 in the case of Merril Jessop)

They treat their woman like objects for barter and yet the men are so lacking that they need 3 or more wives to get themselves a spot in their kingdom. Crazy isn't it?

[walton]

Originally posted by Imperfect



Walton - thanks for another eye-opening link!



IMO ... what a bunch of CLOWNS.

So what did the cult leaders say to their flock on 1/1/01? ... 'Uh, nevermind"???

These folks need another hobby -- one that doesn't involve traipsing around after and hanging on the every word of a succession of CLOWNS.

Good grief! [/*]

Sorry I didn't make it back here lastnight. Did the headbobbing thing looking for things and fell asleep at my desk. Too funny.

Slept good though. :)

Do you know Roger?

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by Bratlings



Where does it say the FLDS are one of them? [/*]

One of them - what? Not sure I am understanding your question.

Here's the start page for the FLDS, with a ton of links inside -


http://www.apologeticsindex.org/f/f39.html

FLDS is a Mormon offshoot - here is the start page for that -

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/m04.html

And an excerpt. . .

A Cult of Christianity
The Mormon Church - officially, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint - considers itself not just a Christian denomination, but rather the only true expression of Christianity.

Mormons believe that their church is "the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth" (D&C 1:30), the only organization authorized by the Almighty to preach his gospel and administer the ordinances of salvation, the only Church which has power to save" (Mormon Doctrine; 1977 ed, p. 136).

Mormons either deny of pervert every essential doctrine of historic Christianity, including the uniqueness of God, the virgin birth, the Trinity, the authority of Scripture (by relegating it to a position below their other sacred writings), and salvation by grace through faith.

Individuals who, while claiming to be Christians, reject one of more central (key) doctrines of the Christian faith are considered heretics. Groups which reject such doctrines while claiming to represent Christianity, are considered cults of Christianity.

A cult of Christianity is a group of people, which claiming to be Christian, embraces a particular doctrinal system taught by an individual leader, group of leaders, or organization, which (system) denies (either explicitly or implicitly) one or more of the central doctrines of the Christian faith as taught in the sixty-six books of the Bible.
Source: "Unmasking The Cults" by Alan Gomes. See also: Cult - A Theological Definition

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by walton


Sorry I didn't make it back here lastnight. Did the headbobbing thing looking for things and fell asleep at my desk. Too funny.
[/*]

When you have time, tell us why you believe WJ may NOT be in jail.

:D

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by Bratlings
They are not a cult, it is a legal and recognized religion. [/*]

No one, to the best of my knowledge, has ever denied they are a legal & recognized religion.

There are tons upon tons of recognized religions that aren't Christian.

When you have time at your disposal, rummage around on that site. It is full of information, on more than just the FLDS, LDS, etc.

And if that one doesn't suit ya - start a Google search on "Christian Apologetics" - you will get a slew of good websites (& some probably not so good). The CS Lewis site is real good, too.

[juliekan]

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=5008225&page=1

Doomsday begins next Thursday
Update on the House of Yahweh

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by Bratlings
They are not a cult, it is a legal and recognized religion. [/*]

Here's the opening page to "Cult" on the ApologeticsIndex website -


http://www.apologeticsindex.org/c09.html

As you can see - they make several breakdowns on that definition. A sociological definition will be different than a theological definition & so on -


Note the difference between sociological and theological definitions of the term "cult:"
Sociological definitions of the term ...
...include consideration of such factors as authoritarian leadership patterns, loyalty and commitment mechanisms, lifestyle characteristics, [and] conformity patterns (including the use of various sanctions in connection with those members who deviate).
Source: Ronald Enroth, "What Is a Cult?" in A Guide to Cults and New Religions, e.d. Ronald Enroth (Downers Grove, Ill,: InterVarsity 1983), p14
Theological definitions make note of the reasons why a particular group's beliefs and/or practices are considered unorthodox - that is, in conflict with the body of essential teachings of the movement the group compares itself to.

For example, Christian apologist Robert Bowman defines a cult as
A religious group originating as a heretical sect and maintaining fervent commitment to heresy. Adj.: "cultic" (may be used with reference to tendencies as well as full cult status).
Source: Robert Bowman, A Biblical Guide To Orthodoxy And Heresy.

[juliekan]

Originally posted by Imperfect


Good. I have a hair appointment on Wednesday.

;) [/*]

At least I won't have to cancel my son's birthday party...it's a BARBEQUE :beer:

[Roux]

Originally posted by Bratlings


The FLDS are Christians whether you like it or not! You have found some information about some other groups not being Christians but NOTHING that supports your theory that FLDS are one of them. [/*]

The FLDS may call themselves Christian, you may call them Christians, but they are not. They do not follow the teachings of Christ; they follow the teachings of their prophet, who is currently Warren Jeffs.

You know that they acknowledge only the birthdate of Joseph Smith in their religious calendar? No acknowledgement of Easter or Christmas?

You posted earlier that they believe in Christ...well so does Satan.

[KKKKKKatie]

Originally posted by Bratlings


If Catholics announced today that Christ's return is next Wednesday would you still think it was appropriate for other to make fun of it like you are doing? Wrong!:no: [/*]

that would never happen in the Catholic Religion

:rolleyes: <--- your favorite

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by Bratlings


The FLDS are Christians whether you like it or not! You have found some information about some other groups not being Christians but NOTHING that supports your theory that FLDS are one of them. [/*]

Found some information? ROFLOL. You must be kidding.

EVERY CHRISTIAN APOLOGETICS person or organization has the same conclusion. This isn't about me, this isn't about you. It is NOT POSSIBLE to deny things like the diety of Christ - and be Christian! And that is only one example of why they won't be.

You may have your own, personal definitions on what you want to believe - that is absolutely your right. But 2000 years of Christian apologetics work disagrees with you.

Gotta go - be back tonight.

[Roux]

Scripture says no man knows the day or the hour. That's good enough for me.

[juliekan]

Originally posted by Bratlings


If Catholics announced today that Christ's return is next Wednesday would you still think it was appropriate for others to make fun of it like you are doing? Wrong!:no: [/*]

As always, you didn't read the link...I'll spoon feed it to you...it says nuclear war will begin next Thursday. It'll be easier to get my big bbq pits running I bet...;)

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by Roux



You posted earlier that they believe in Christ...well so does Satan. [/*]

Yep.

[walton]

Originally posted by Imperfect


No worries. I really should get off this board and do some work!

Glad you slept good.

I don't know Roger. Would he be another featured performer with the FLDS Circus of the Stars? [/*]



:D

[KKKKKKatie]

Originally posted by Bratlings


They might, and you dont know that! They could decide to do that. If the FLDS are a cult then so are Catholics and every other religion. [/*]

Good grief Bratlings...you are really reaching here.

Catholics will never proclaim the end because scripture says that we will not know when it is coming. End of story!

[walton]

Originally posted by Bratlings



As usual you didnt read my post before you responded! :rolleyes:


I dont care what the Yahweh believe, it is not OK to make fun of them and I didnt need to read your link to know that! Show some respect for religion! [/*]

You can't tell me that God doesn't have a sense of humor.

For goodness sake look at the anteater.

[KKKKKKatie]

Originally posted by Bratlings


No you are reaching! Jews dont even believe Christ walked the earth does that mean they are a cult too? Your scripture says he did, theirs says he didnt. I guess they are a cult too because their scripture is different than yours! [/*]

I never said that and no I do not believe that at all. We are talking Christians...or have you forgotten that?

[Roux]

Originally posted by Bratlings



Satan is not a religion. He is a being. [/*]

I didn't say he is a religion. I SAID he believes in Christ, because you pointed out that the FLDS believe in Christ and that is part of what makes them Christian. Therefore, if Satan believes in Christ, is he a Christian?

[juliekan]

Originally posted by Imperfect
OMG! ROFL!

I need to get a petition going to add the little ROFL guy to the smilie selection.

Who's in?

:biggrin: [/*]

:seeya: I am

[Roux]

I give up.

[KKKKKKatie]

Originally posted by Roux
I give up. [/*]

me too...he/she refuses to see the differences. I won't be doing this again with her/him

[juliekan]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/nation/5822232.html

Texas governor suggests sect may want to move on

Rick Perry says they may want to pack their bags, because Texas will continue to make sure they follow the law.

[walton]

Originally posted by Mimi428


When you have time, tell us why you believe WJ may NOT be in jail.

:D [/*]

Just saw this. When Warren had court in Utah they allowed cameras in the courtroom. Even though it was delayed they showed actual footage.

Day of sentencing- No cameras. Nothing. Zippo no cameras what so ever.
Worse than that- there was not one article that talked about how Warren behaved in court. Nothing written about what his lawyers reactions. Nothing concerning any detail. They "whisked" him out of there and hauled him to prison right away.

A month later when I was still whining about no pictures and no details some photos showed up on a couple of sites that made it sound like they were taken the day of sentencing. But they weren't. I checked them with the photos that they had used before. Same day, different angles. Wally *. had the same tie, the other guys clothing were the same. I could even tell that some members seated in the courtroom had on the same clothing. Because of the angles, it appeared different but it was the same day.

Court day in Arizona- again no cameras. No nothing. They come up with a photo that shows (supposedly) Warren walking from point A to point *. Wasn't Warren. I went every which way to try and make it Warren but it wasn't him. Warren is a tall man. Standing on a curb would make him even taller.
The photograph I had seen put him almost the same height as the jailers.

Since that day of sentencing we haven't heard anything other than the jailer giving generic information to who ever calls and asks about him.

I think Warren is in a hospital someplace.


Check out Brookes entry dated Feb.29, 2008

http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/archives/2008_02_01_archive.htm

The jail is adjacent to the courthouse. Most inmates are walked across the blacktop. But the Mohave County Sheriff's Office used a vehicle to move Jeffs to the courthouse door, limiting public view of its highest profile inmate.

The picture is no longer at that other link. I thought I saved the picture but I didn't. The guy in the picture was not Warren imo. Warren does have a couple of brothers though.

[Carol25]

Originally posted by walton


Just saw this. When Warren had court in Utah they allowed cameras in the courtroom. Even though it was delayed they showed actual footage.

Day of sentencing- No cameras. Nothing. Zippo no cameras what so ever.
Worse than that- there was not one article that talked about how Warren behaved in court. Nothing written about what his lawyers reactions. Nothing concerning any detail. They "whisked" him out of there and hauled him to prison right away.

A month later when I was still whining about no pictures and no details some photos showed up on a couple of sites that made it sound like they were taken the day of sentencing. But they weren't. I checked them with the photos that they had used before. Same day, different angles. Wally *. had the same tie, the other guys clothing were the same. I could even tell that some members seated in the courtroom had on the same clothing. Because of the angles, it appeared different but it was the same day.

Court day in Arizona- again no cameras. No nothing. They come up with a photo that shows (supposedly) Warren walking from point A to point *. Wasn't Warren. I went every which way to try and make it Warren but it wasn't him. Warren is a tall man. Standing on a curb would make him even taller.
The photograph I had seen put him almost the same height as the jailers.

Since that day of sentencing we haven't heard anything other than the jailer giving generic information to who ever calls and asks about him.

I think Warren is in a hospital someplace.


Check out Brookes entry dated Feb.29, 2008

http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/archives/2008_02_01_archive.htm

The jail is adjacent to the courthouse. Most inmates are walked across the blacktop. But the Mohave County Sheriff's Office used a vehicle to move Jeffs to the courthouse door, limiting public view of its highest profile inmate.

The picture is no longer at that other link. I thought I saved the picture but I didn't. The guy in the picture was not Warren imo. Warren does have a couple of brothers though. [/*]
What do you think his illness is? Do you think he is being poisoned or has been injected with something? Atonement? Am I going too far?
For what reason is his health not been addressed truthfully. Why do you think that recent pictures are not available? Why are the courts so accommodating with "no cameras in the courtroom?" Why would the allow a surrogate to pose for Jeffs in court?

[Carol25]

Originally posted by juliekan
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/nation/5822232.html

Texas governor suggests sect may want to move on

Rick Perry says they may want to pack their bags, because Texas will continue to make sure they follow the law. [/*]
Isn't this strange considering the court order states they cannot go beyond 100 miles? Perhaps he was just exasperated at the time of the careless comment?

[walton]

Originally posted by Carol25

What do you think his illness is? Do you think he is being poisoned or has been injected with something? Atonement? Am I going too far?
For what reason is his health not been addressed truthfully. Why do you think that recent pictures are not available? Why are the courts so accommodating with "no cameras in the courtroom?" Why would the allow a surrogate to pose for Jeffs in court? [/*]

No, I don't think anyone did anything to him. He was held in solitare confinement for his own good. (or bad)

With as many wives and children that this man has it would be hard to go from many to isolation imo.

I know that the doctors that were treating him from the begining of his jail time have treated him for depression. I also think that some of those meds weren't moderated close enough and Warren got goofy.

If you look at some of the documents that Brooke has at her site you will see some court documents that consists of Warrens health issues. My questions were at that time were questions about who these Doctors were and if they came from the hospital/hospitals that Warren had sent some of these "defiant" women who spoke against their husbands wishes.

Remember he had Warrens God's Squad haul off a few to a local hospital for evaluation and told them they would never see their kids again.

Women would call the local police and then the Police would call Warren and there they go..... off to the local hospital.

Judge Shumate was really good about letting cameras in until that very last day. And then nothing.

Judge Steven F. Conn I can understand not having cameras because he imo is well I just don't like the guy.

Coverage about these issues hasn't been that great. Brooke Adams, Mike Watkiss and a scattered few. It hasn't been until lately tha the coverage has been there.

Getting anything out of Utah is really hard. I feel kinda bad for those reporters there. Hands tied. imo

I know if I was a reporter living in Utah, I'd end up getting fired. For obvious reasons but the biggest thing would be because I have a hard time with No, you can't ask those questions or No, you can't print that. That would drive me nuts.

[walton]

Originally posted by Carol25

Isn't this strange considering the court order states they cannot go beyond 100 miles? Perhaps he was just exasperated at the time of the careless comment? [/*]

From the same link:

"If you are going to conduct yourself that way, we are going to prosecute you," Perry said. "If you don't want to be prosecuted for those activities, then maybe Texas is not the place you need to consider calling home."



:patriot: I really love Texas.

[walton]

Originally posted by Bratlings
WALTON, THAT CONSPIRACY THEORY IS CONCERNING... LOL [/*]

There is your homework assignment Bratlings. prove me wrong.

:D

If you hit something and prove me wrong... you win but I'd win too.

If you don' t get anything... I win.

Taking a jailers word that Warren is sitting in his cell is not enough. Pictures of Warrens mugshot upon entering the system is not enough proof.

[Carol25]

Originally posted by walton


No, I don't think anyone did anything to him. He was held in solitare confinement for his own good. (or bad)

With as many wives and children that this man has it would be hard to go from many to isolation imo.

I know that the doctors that were treating him from the begining of his jail time have treated him for depression. I also think that some of those meds weren't moderated close enough and Warren got goofy.

If you look at some of the documents that Brooke has at her site you will see some court documents that consists of Warrens health issues. My questions were at that time were questions about who these Doctors were and if they came from the hospital/hospitals that Warren had sent some of these "defiant" women who spoke against their husbands wishes.

(respectfully snipped)

[/*]

Thanks so much for the answers. Much appreciated. :seeya:

[walton]

Originally posted by Imperfect
Walton,

I haven't had a chance to read all the links yet, but if Warren's been in a mental hospital since the sentencing, who do you think has been filling in as puppetmaster?

And do you think Warren's influence on the sect is as strong as it was before his arrest?

TIA. :seeya: [/*]

Merril Jessop, Wendell Nielson and or......


Yes. I think it is as strong as ever.

I don't like Warren. I mean I really don't like Warren. But I was offended by what Willie E. Jessop said about Joseph Smith.

[evalles]

Originally posted by walton


There is your homework assignment Bratlings. prove me wrong.

:D

If you hit something and prove me wrong... you win but I'd win too.

If you don' t get anything... I win.

Taking a jailers word that Warren is sitting in his cell is not enough. Pictures of Warrens mugshot upon entering the system is not enough proof. [/*]

If you can't prove it's true, how can anyone prove it's not true ?

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by walton


From the same link:

"If you are going to conduct yourself that way, we are going to prosecute you," Perry said. "If you don't want to be prosecuted for those activities, then maybe Texas is not the place you need to consider calling home."



:patriot: I really love Texas. [/*]

Also from the same link:

"Willie Jessop, an FLDS elder who lives in Utah, said Perry's remarks were shocking, particularly given a Texas Supreme Court ruling that forced this week's return of 440 sect children on the grounds that child welfare officials provided scant evidence that the children were in danger."

EXCELLENT point, I'd say.

[walton]

Warrens jailhouse confession.

Didn't anyone find it odd that Warren got a change of heart and after all these years finally decided to confess his wicked ways?

Surprise- he knew he was busted. His lawyers knew he was busted. He passes off the "I am not the Prophet, never was the Prophet, never will be the Prophet" line and people fell for it.

If he wasn't the Prophet than he wouldn't be the "spiritual leader" of these young girls. A man in an authority position.

He fasted for days. Prayed for days and this was "his" revelation. I believe via Warrenite lawyers and Warrenite Doctors.

When Warren got busted in Nevada he had loads of information with him. Information and lists of names of people whom he could contact for money and places to hide. Whose names were on that list? None of this stuff has come out in court yet.

His father had a lot of friends in high places. Who owns the glass houses that may shatter if their names get out? Who has sweat beads on their foreheads not from hot temps but from the Feds getting closer.


Warren isn't crazy. He just acts crazy sometimes. jmo And I bet real Doctors could prove it. again jmo

[juliekan]

Yes I have lost my mind...I keep hearing the theme song to "The Beverly Hillbillies" in my mind, except...
So the next thing you know, ol' Jeff's a millionaire
El Dorado is the place you oughta be
So they loaded up the truck and moved to El Dorado
Texas that is
Prairie dresses
Polygamy

I gotta get off this computer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[walton]

Originally posted by Imperfect


Shouldn't be that hard -- if it's not true. Jail records are a whole lot easier to access than mental health records. [/*]

Been there and done that as well.

I was following a different story about a guy in Utah that was arrested for the disposing of body parts in Utah. The guys name was Mark Allen Carlson. The person that was killed was John D. Mayo. Mark Allen Carlson was hooked up with the Aryan Nation Group.

This was around the time they had all those small animal killings in the Avenues area in Salt Lake. About the same time as the Mark Hacking story.

Mark Carlson said he didn't do it but told the authorities who did do it. That guy was now in prison.

So they threw Carlson in jail for violating his probation and never charged him with throwing body parts around. They had him listed in the Draper Prison but he was actually on work duty in northern Utah.

No one has been charged with the murder of John D. Mayo. I've called and asked about this and no one is talking.

[walton]

Originally posted by juliekan
Yes I have lost my mind...I keep hearing the theme song to "The Beverly Hillbillies" in my mind, except...
So the next thing you know, ol' Jeff's a millionaire
El Dorado is the place you oughta be
So they loaded up the truck and moved to El Dorado
Texas that is
Prairie dresses
Polygamy

I gotta get off this computer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [/*]

:D

[walton]

Originally posted by evalles


If you can't prove it's true, how can anyone prove it's not true ? [/*]

I am hoping that someone is a better snoop than me.

[walton]

Originally posted by SavannahStar


Also from the same link:

"Willie Jessop, an FLDS elder who lives in Utah, said Perry's remarks were shocking, particularly given a Texas Supreme Court ruling that forced this week's return of 440 sect children on the grounds that child welfare officials provided scant evidence that the children were in danger."

EXCELLENT point, I'd say. [/*]

And maybe just maybe Jethro's ( I mean Willie E.'s ) role in this is to to mouth the words.

How shocked could he be? The feds showed up on his door step way back when they were looking for Warren. How many hours do you suppose they questioned Willie?

Do you suppose they traded this for that and what they got was Jethro ( I mean Willie E.) being the spokesperson for the group?

I do.

[juliekan]

Originally posted by walton


And maybe just maybe Jethro's ( I mean Willie E.'s ) role in this is to to mouth the words.

How shocked could he be? The feds showed up on his door step way back when they were looking for Warren. How many hours do you suppose they questioned Willie?

Do you suppose they traded this for that and what they got was Jethro ( I mean Willie E.) being the spokesperson for the group?

I do. [/*]

ROFLMAO

[walton]

Originally posted by Imperfect


Walton - what jail is he supposedly in? The one in Kingman, AZ? (Is that even a prison, or just a jail?) Or did they move him to Utah? I can't recall.

You can generally look up prisoner names in the different state prison system websites. I'm sure you've tried that already, right? [/*]

yup. Thing is all it shows is his picture. You can actually see his picture on the Hope website as well.


All Utah had of Mark Allan Carlson was his picture being in one place and his physical being was in another.

[walton]

Originally posted by juliekan


ROFLMAO [/*]





you started it. :tongue:

[walton]

http://www.supreme.state.az.us/publicaccess/notification/partylist.asp?id=

I don't dare copy and paste this one.

[walton]

I'll do some more digging ( not for oil that is) and stop later on.

See you guys later.

Bratlings get busy and get that stuff will ya?
:)

[walton]

That is ok Bratlings. I've tried for months to find out.

Got this in my travels though. http://www.cr.ex.state.ut.us/asp-bin/sexoffendersearch.asp?lname=jeffs&fname=&zip=&x=0&y=0

If you click on Warrens name it will give some more info.

They have him listed at the Draper Prison but supposedly he is at Kingman jail.

Heck, who knows maybe he has on one of those red wigs and is actually Patricia Keate.

:shrug:

[MsTuri]

Originally posted by walton
That is ok Bratlings. I've tried for months to find out.

Got this in my travels though. http://www.cr.ex.state.ut.us/asp-bin/sexoffendersearch.asp?lname=jeffs&fname=&zip=&x=0&y=0

If you click on Warrens name it will give some more info.

They have him listed at the Draper Prison but supposedly he is at Kingman jail.

Heck, who knows maybe he has on one of those red wigs and is actually Patricia Keate.

:shrug: [/*]

:lol:

[MsTuri]

Wonder how long it will be before I can see his picture and not instantly get the {{creepy shivers}}. Probably never :flamemad:

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by Bratlings


Sorry, I dont really care if he is in jail or a mental ward under police protection. He is not living and copulating with any minors and thats all I care about concerning him. [/*]

I believe that's the bottom line, there.

:beer:

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by walton



I think Warren is in a hospital someplace.


From the search warrant on May 29, 2008, he was in the Mojave County Jail, 415 Pine St, Kingman, Mohave County, Arizona.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2008/images/05/30/warren.jeffs.search.warrant.pdf

Some facilities have such strict guidelines that the public never sees the inmate after they enter the jail facility. Maybe it is just their general policy. OTOH, I can certainly understand any of them thinking that the less the FLDS sees of him, in any representation, the better. The martyr factor is already way too high for him - in his eyes & in theirs, IMO.

I vaguely recall the news that he was placed on anti-depressants after his confinement. Sure does make you wonder if his pronouncements & denouncements were generated due to a need for medication or due to effect of medication.

Personally, I have always thought there is a great likelihood that he has some heavy-duty paraphilias. It is noticeable, to me anyway, that the females seem to have to adopt the tradional hairstyle once they reach puberty. You know there is no way hair stands up like that without some significant work.

Heck, maybe Warren, at a young age, got turned on by the pompadours seen back in the late 50s, early 60s - such as was worn by say, Conway Twitty back in the day.

It's one thing to look similar, it's a whole 'nother deal when you have to do a specific amount of work to obtain a 'look'. And trust me, in west Texas, there is no way those coifs stood up all day without a LOT of attention to how they were constructed. They would have fallen flatter than a pancake w/o help.

JMO

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by Mimi428


From the search warrant on May 29, 2008, he was in the Mojave County Jail, 415 Pine St, Kingman, Mohave County, Arizona.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2008/images/05/30/warren.jeffs.search.warrant.pdf

Some facilities have such strict guidelines that the public never sees the inmate after they enter the jail facility. Maybe it is just their general policy. OTOH, I can certainly understand any of them thinking that the less the FLDS sees of him, in any representation, the better. The martyr factor is already way too high for him - in his eyes & in theirs, IMO.

I vaguely recall the news that he was placed on anti-depressants after his confinement. Sure does make you wonder if his pronouncements & denouncements were generated due to a need for medication or due to effect of medication.

Personally, I have always thought there is a great likelihood that he has some heavy-duty paraphilias. It is noticeable, to me anyway, that the females seem to have to adopt the tradional hairstyle once they reach puberty. You know there is no way hair stands up like that without some significant work.

Heck, maybe Warren, at a young age, got turned on by the pompadours seen back in the late 50s, early 60s - such as was worn by say, Conway Twitty back in the day.

It's one thing to look similar, it's a whole 'nother deal when you have to do a specific amount of work to obtain a 'look'. And trust me, in west Texas, there is no way those coifs stood up all day without a LOT of attention to how they were constructed. They would have fallen flatter than a pancake w/o help.

JMO [/*]

Are you really making fun of their hairstyle? Please. :rolleyes:

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by SavannahStar


Are you really making fun of their hairstyle? Please. :rolleyes: [/*]

No, I'm not. Now as for Warren . . . could be.

[evalles]

Don't mess with Texas CPS.

A judge doesn't even have to sign off on the order.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXwBRfxRSz8

[juliekan]

Originally posted by SavannahStar


Are you really making fun of their hairstyle? Please. :rolleyes: [/*]

You have obviously never tried to keep your hair "done" in the West Texas wind. Why do you think Texas women always spray the heck out of their big hair...to try to keep it from blowing away.
And yes I grew up nearby, and the wind blows EVERY day, and we Texas women love big hair. :D

[juliekan]

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=5018120&page=1

House of Yahweh update on 20/20 tonight. The funniest thing I've read lately about this cult is that they say Satan is a woman and is responsible for whatever leaders get elected.

[juliekan]

Originally posted by Bratlings
I have found no indication that The house of Yahweh believes satan was a female, rather they acknowledge that Satan could be either and refer to Satan as he/she often.

http://www.bnaiavraham.net/teaching_articles/english_teachings/Satan/was_satan.htm [/*]

http://letusreason.org/sacna1.htm

"They believe that Satan is a female who has been in indirect control of all of the world's government and religions and she has been appointing all of the political and religious leaders. As most of the Sacred name groups they believe that Catholicism and Protestantism are evil faith groups, symbolized by the two horns of the beast mentioned in Revelations 13:11."

This link is in regard to Yisrayl Hawkins, House of Yahweh, Texas

NOT Yisrael, who is in the teachings of the *'nai Avraham Messianic Congregation

I :read: , you should too

[juliekan]

Originally posted by Bratlings



I gave you the Hebrew source of their belief. You are quoting from a third party. Hmmm which is more believable? :no: [/*]

No you are quoting from other religions. See first link I posted, House of Yahweh in Texas is in no way connected to the other groups you are posting links to.

[juliekan]

Not the point. I believe most Jews would be offended to know you are linking them to this:

http://yahweh.com/nuke%20bk%20ltr.htm

This is written by Yisrayl Hawkins

[juliekan]

Originally posted by Bratlings



I think Jews would be offended to know you are making fun of their beliefs because you thought it was something some cult made up. [/*]

the Jewish religion believes in the nuclear baby? Wow, that's news to me.

[juliekan]

I have done none of what you have said. I thought it was interesting that the man leading a cult would say that a woman was Satan. You misconstrue everything I write.

[juliekan]

Originally posted by Bratlings



You didnt say "interesting" you said "hilarious". [/*]

read again, the word hilarious is nowhere in sight in that posting

[juliekan]

Hey Imperfect can I do this now...:lol: ?

[juliekan]

All I can say is that you are totally incorrect in all you say about me. You are merely making up things to accuse me of. I would prefer to discuss topics associated with this thread than have you misconstrue everything I write and chastise and belittle me.

[juliekan]

Originally posted by juliekan
All I can say is that you are totally incorrect in all you say about me. You are merely making up things to accuse me of. I would prefer to discuss topics associated with this thread than have you misconstrue everything I write and chastise and belittle me. [/*]

[juliekan]

http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife

Stormy Weather Ahead?

"The DNA will show whether Jeffs and any of the girls are parents of any child at the ranch. And if they do, the probe will likely snare others: the girls' parents and anyone else who knew and kept silent."

[evalles]

Originally posted by grammybear
i am sure once the DNA tests come in, we are going to see a lot of things happen in Texas. Time will tell what is really going on.
My biggest concern is all the kids. To be raised in such a controlled enviroment from birth and possibly being moved then to have the state involved is really a bad issue for these kids.

I also worry about the parent following through with the conditions set down by the judge. I guess we will know shortly.
On the comment about not seeing any abuse, You cannot tell if a person is abused by looking at them. There are abuses that do not show up like bruises. The emotional abuse can be far worse then physical. I am sure with this group having women become so subverbient to the men, that I do not believe these women would dare talk about things done to them by their husbands or spiritual husband.

jmoo [/*]

No doubt that emotional abuse can be far worse, but according to the law, it doesn't warrant removal.
Unless it's blatant, it's not easy to diagnose. What some might consider abusive, others do not.
For example, when I was concerned about my daughter's behavior, I read her jornal. Believe me, that was enlightening.
A 23 year old social worker was "appalled" that I would do such a thing, while most mothers of teenagers understand completely and have done the same. Even therapists that are parents of teens don't find it shocking. There are usually some signs of all types of abuse,if you know what to look for.

[walton]

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700232582,00.html?pg=1

Earlier this week, church spokesman Willie Jessop said about 20 percent of the families had returned there and more planned to do so.




Jessop told the News there was little evidence of any abuse on the ranch. In calling for criminal prosecutions, he said Perry was showing the same stubbornness as President Bush on the Iraq war.

"Rather than acknowledging we're in there on bad intelligence, we keep fighting the fight," Jessop told the Dallas newspaper. "I don't know if that's a Texas thing or what that is. But he's in that same mentality — let's continue to justify why we're there rather than acknowledging it wasn't true."

[Roux]

How do the FLDS members living at YFZ receive their income to live day-to-day? Some of them said they have jobs but are they with FLDS entities or the outside world?

With regard to the mothers with children (and the few families where the husband is present) who have not returned to the compound, how are they paying for rent and living expenses? One article told of a mother who is a registered nurse and had gotten a job at a hospital, but what about some of the others.
Do they receive a stipend from Willie or whoever is in charge of the $$ now?

I hope Walton can keep us up to speed on any irregularities the trust fund conservator (sorry I don't remember his name) finds once they receive documents seized by Texas LE.

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by Roux


With regard to the mothers with children (and the few families where the husband is present) who have not returned to the compound, how are they paying for rent and living expenses? [/*]

<snipped>

I have wondered about the same things. I really don't have a clue what income any of the parents could/would realistically claim to a potential landlord - yet they did not seem to have any difficulties finding places to rent (if they did, it has not been reported).

[Roux]

Originally posted by Bratlings



The trust fund was not set up for the kids in a traditional sense, it was to group peoples money for the use of the church. The only reason a conservator was set up was because of a lawsuit that Jeffs lost by default because he did not defend making them entitled to proceeds from it. So I really dont get why irregularities are a big deal to you or anyone else. [/*]

The United Effort Plan Trust has been a subject in the news for the past two or three years. Although I personally have no financial stake, why shouldn't I be interested in it.

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by Roux


The United Effort Plan Trust has been a subject in the news for the past two or three years. Although I personally have no financial stake, why shouldn't I be interested in it. [/*]

I think we should all be interested since some of the money has come from government contracts, where the young men and adolescent boys work for free or lower than minimal wage. IMO, by using their slave labor, they keep their bids much lower than legitimate businesses paying legitimate-law enforced wages.

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=572&sid=3084399

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/04/17/polygamy.pentagon/index.html


http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=2709009

Photos suggest FLDS contractors using child labor
February 21st, 2008 @ 10:15pm
John Hollenhorst reporting

Contractors say it's a fact of life in Southern Utah: children working on construction sites for companies with ties to Warren Jeffs. We have photos that raise the prospect of an illegal practice that seems commonplace, even though it's rarely prosecuted.

Rival contractors sometimes call it slave labor, kids of polygamists working far below the legal age. Under most circumstances, that's 16 for construction and 18 for dangerous tasks. Other contractors say they see kid workers all the time, and it drains dollars away from them to the FLDS Church.

Driving past the Cedar City Walgreen's a couple of weeks ago, private eye Sam Brower saw something that made him grab his camera. "Some little kids out working on a construction site," he says.

He snapped two photos of a boy he'd seen working with concrete. He appeared exceptionally young. Brower said, "I'm gonna guess about 8, maybe."



More about the child labor at the 3rd link posted. The first two links pertain to government contracts and the amount of money given to the FLDS and Warren Jeffs.

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by Bratlings
It doesnt matter if teen boys did the work, they have the right to hire them! Even if they are underage if they consider it a family business. You keep making a big deal of "government contracts" as if they stole the money, they earned it and were awarded those contracts legally. If you want to blame someone in that regard it should be who is in charge of awarding the contracts. [/*]

Sounds like a federal judge figured out who to 'blame'. From Katydid's 3rd link -


Another FLDS-linked company, Paragon, was hit with a permanent injunction a few weeks ago by a federal judge. It was for "repeatedly and willfully" violating child labor laws.

[juliekan]

Thanks for the links KatyDid :)

[Mimi428]

§ 35. Contracts for materials, etc., exceeding $10,000; representations and stipulations

In any contract made and entered into by any executive department, independent establishment, or other agency or instrumentality of the United States, or by the District of Columbia, or by any corporation all the stock of which is beneficially owned by the United States (all the foregoing being hereinafter designated as agencies of the United States), for the manufacture or furnishing of materials, supplies, articles, and equipment in any amount exceeding $10,000, there shall be included the following representations and stipulations:

. . .

(c) That no male person under sixteen years of age and no female person under eighteen years of age and no convict labor will be employed by the contractor in the manufacture or production or furnishing of any of the materials, supplies, articles, or equipment included in such contract, except that this section, or any other law or Executive order containing similar prohibitions against purchase of goods by the Federal Government, shall not apply to convict labor which satisfies the conditions of section 1761 (c) of title 18;


This applies to contracts by the Federal government. More at the link.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode41/usc_sec_41_00000035----000-.html

[walton]

Have I told you guys lately how much I appreciate all of you?

Well I do. Bunches!! :rose:


Kids at the age of 14 can't flip a burger at the local food joint but they can't climb up on that big old equipment? Wow.


Well I sure hope that those kids working for these outfits never had to clean up any old military bases. or help with work done on any State or Federal lands or help build any small communities near and or around the Utah Arizona area.

[walton]

Originally posted by Roux
How do the FLDS members living at YFZ receive their income to live day-to-day? Some of them said they have jobs but are they with FLDS entities or the outside world?

With regard to the mothers with children (and the few families where the husband is present) who have not returned to the compound, how are they paying for rent and living expenses? One article told of a mother who is a registered nurse and had gotten a job at a hospital, but what about some of the others.
Do they receive a stipend from Willie or whoever is in charge of the $$ now?

I hope Walton can keep us up to speed on any irregularities the trust fund conservator (sorry I don't remember his name) finds once they receive documents seized by Texas LE. [/*]

Bruce Wissan is the guy. And Judge Lindberg is the one that asked him to do the job. They both are A-Ok in my eyes.

Western Precision now called NewEra is one of the companies that is getting Govt. contracts. but that is only one.

As Katydids links point out there are other companies that are involved.

Check this out: Lets just say Warren has 101 wives. He is only married to one of them legally. That leaves 100 wives collecting welfare. (But apparently not from the State of TEXAS) 100 women getting food stamps, medicaid, dental assistance, eyeware, heating assistance, WIC, and probably housing assistance which is paid to the owner (Jeffs).

Let's just say that their housing assistance is 400 bucks. You take 400 x 100 and Warren is making some darn good money.
Just off of the housing alone.

While others were listening to Warrens tapes, Warren was probably listening to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-g7Q7hXn7o

:D

[MsTuri]

Wonder if they have experts in "mind control" advising LE, ie: telling them the importance of Jeffs tapes, IMO an important tool he used to keep "getting the word out", and spreading the gospel according to Warren. The tapes helped brainwash the people when he wasn't around to do it personally. Again IMO.

[MsTuri]

When Warren presented bids and was awarded jobs, he could low-ball his bids over all others because he didn't have to worry so much about the cost of 'labor' in his 'crews', if they were kids he either didn't have to pay or paid very low or paid and then recovered much of what he paid out (maybe in the form of 'tithes'??) compared to the legitimate companies who had to pay their crews legal wages, plus all the other costs associated with doing business legally.

I don't call that a fair awarding of contracts.

Also ITA that he was really making a killing by having those women "bleed the beast" and then getting those funds from them, in the form of rent, food or whatever. He had no problem whatsoever ripping off to get money. He preaches simplicity and expects his ppl to live simply, yet he did not. Betcha he's living pretty simply now!!

eta jmo

[juliekan]

Originally posted by MsTuri
Wonder if they have experts in "mind control" advising LE, ie: telling them the importance of Jeffs tapes, IMO an important tool he used to keep "getting the word out", and spreading the gospel according to Warren. The tapes helped brainwash the people when he wasn't around to do it personally. Again IMO. [/*]

The same doctor that LE called in for the Branch Dividian Mess, was also consulted by LE in El Dorado. He's from Houston, can't remember his name...Perry?

[juliekan]

Originally posted by walton


Bruce Wissan is the guy. And Judge Lindberg is the one that asked him to do the job. They both are A-Ok in my eyes.

Western Precision now called NewEra is one of the companies that is getting Govt. contracts. but that is only one.

As Katydids links point out there are other companies that are involved.

Check this out: Lets just say Warren has 101 wives. He is only married to one of them legally. That leaves 100 wives collecting welfare. (But apparently not from the State of TEXAS) 100 women getting food stamps, medicaid, dental assistance, eyeware, heating assistance, WIC, and probably housing assistance which is paid to the owner (Jeffs).

Let's just say that their housing assistance is 400 bucks. You take 400 x 100 and Warren is making some darn good money.
Just off of the housing alone.

While others were listening to Warrens tapes, Warren was probably listening to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-g7Q7hXn7o

:D [/*]

Janis! one of my favorites. :D

[KatyDid]

This may have been posted earlier. I just came across it while I was searching and reading.

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/06/03/removing-the-flds-children-upsides/

June 3, 2008
Removing the FLDS children: Upsides
Posted: 06:07 PM ET

Steven Hassan
Cult expert
Author and mental health counselor

On the face of it, the Texas Supreme Court’s 6-3 vote to support the Appellate Court reversal of Judge Walther’s decision—to remove the children from the FLDS compound in Eldorado—might look like a blow, but I don’t see it that way.

The fact is, the overall situation is vastly improved for the children and other members of the group and there is great hope.

•First of all, I predict there will not be any more so-called “spiritual” marriages involving underage children.

•Second, the investigation into the facts of child sexual abuse—of girls as well as boys—has begun and is set to continue.

•Third, despite the upset brought about by the dramatic intervention by Texas Child Protective Services, the children and other members of the FLDS group have no doubt had many, many positive experiences with people in the real world, as evidenced by the tearful goodbyes when they had to go back.

•Fourth, the “genie is out of the bottle” and the FLDS leadership will have a very difficult time re-indoctrinating everyone into “keeping sweet”— the mind control state of complete and unquestioning obedience — because so many members have now seen and experienced so many positives of being outside the closed, totalitarian community.

For example, FLDS teaches that African Americans are creatures of the devil and yet the children, who have met and been helped by black caregivers, now have found them to be filled with intelligence, love and spirit.

Even the adults of the community have had positive experiences interacting with lawyers, media people and others who have helped them regain access to their children.

Lastly, the media coverage has shed a light on the realities of mind control: FLDS is only one of many authoritarian groups in the United States, daily denying basic human rights to their members and all too often perpetrating the vilest of sexual, physical, and emotional abuse.

Editor’s note: Steven Hassan has counseled FLDS runaways and trained state officials in how to help cult members. His website is freedomofmind.com.

Update: Steven Hassan would like to add these comments to his blog:

I do think there was trauma at first when they were taken from everything they knew. However, I do believe there was a tremendous amount of child abuse going on aside from underage sexual molestation. I do believe that the FLDS will need to be on their best behavior ever. They have never had to think about the “outside world” until that was shattered when Jeffs, the “Prophet” was arrested and convicted.

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by Imperfect


Hi Katydid,

Nope - I don't think your link has been posted, so thanks.

Really glad to read some opinions -- especially from experts -- that remind readers about what sort of life the kids have at home.

Was it traumatic for them to be removed from their mothers? Very likely.

Do they face trauma of a different sort under the watchful eye of their mothers? There's plenty of evidence that says they do. [/*]

Hiya Imperfect!
I was glad to see an expert's opinion on it too. Especially a cult expert who has worked with FLDS runaways.

[MsTuri]

Originally posted by Imperfect


Wow! That's quite a beginning, isn't it JK?

And so much for the argument that what Jeffs did is separate from what goes on at the YFZ ranch.

Looks to me as if Warren was partying like a rock star at his new ranch til his past started catching up with him.

As fast as he was moving, makes me wonder if there were any pre-teen girls left over for the other old fellows to get their hands on. [/*]

When you are advocating a polygamous lifestyle and you live in a closed society like they do, isn't it an almost foregone conclusion that eventually the older dudes will be scarfing up child brides, if its every man for himself and they have 6, 10, 20 etc wives, the supply of women is going to dwindle and they are going to have to go for the younger ones. eh??
But having said that, I don't think they went for the younger girls because the older women population was drying up, I think they are perverts. JMO.

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by MsTuri


When you are advocating a polygamous lifestyle and you live in a closed society like they do, isn't it an almost foregone conclusion that eventually the older dudes will be scarfing up child brides, if its every man for himself and they have 6, 10, 20 etc wives, the supply of women is going to dwindle and they are going to have to go for the younger ones. eh??
But having said that, I don't think they went for the younger girls because the older women population was drying up, I think they are perverts. JMO. [/*]

The younger they marry and impregnate these girls, the more babies they can have to continue the population of their 'superior race'.

[Details]

I note you don't quote that law that supposedly allows minors if they are family. Hmm - I'll guess right now that's because "family" is defined as a direct family, not this idea that anyone else in the cult is "family", since they're all probably cousins at some level.


Took a look through - no reference to "family", and the only reference to child or children refers to an entire statute forbidding the use of any child labor. Not a word I can see about allowing minors, ever.

[walton]

Have you folks seen these?

http://www.freedomofmind.com/stevehassan/responses/attack_response.htm

http://www.rickross.com/reference/scientology/Scien47.html


Wow!

I am beginning to think that I am playing a part in this show or a show similar.

http://www.transparencynow.com/truman.htm

What is that truth? In part, it is about how the media and corporations have begun to surround us with a universe of illusions. From their high-tech control centers, they increasingly script and stage-manage events, creating the danger that we will find ourselves living inside seamless works of theater that we mistake for the world.

http://www.transparencynow.com/trusig.htm

But into this ersatz paradise, there inevitably appears a snake. After the crew makes mistakes that cause the seamlessness of the illusion to break down, Truman figures out that his surroundings are full of staged scenes and events. He then tries to make his escape, only to come up against both his own fears, which keep him from leaving, and the obstacles put in his way by the producer-director who has made billions trapping him in a stage set and playing God with his life.


Wow.

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by Bratlings



There is another section to that law that includes minors under 16 if they are family. [/*]

Here's a link to Utah's Labor Code with a bunch of sublinks inside. By their definition, a "minor is a person under the age of 18 years."


http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE34/34_23.htm

Utah Code -- Title 34 -- Chapter 23 -- Employment of Minors


http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE34/htm/34_23_020100.htm

34-23-201. Employment of minors in hazardous occupations prohibited -- Exceptions.
A minor may not be employed or permitted to work in any hazardous occupation except as authorized by the division in writing when the minor is under careful supervision in connection with or following completion of an apprentice program, vocational training, or rehabilitation program as approved by the division.

http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE34/htm/34_23_020200.htm

34-23-202. Employment of minors under 16 during school hours -- Hours of work limited.
(1) A minor under the age of 16 may not be employed or permitted to work during school hours except as authorized by the proper school authorities.
(2) A minor under the age of 16 may not be permitted to work:
(a) before or after school in excess of four hours a day;
(*) before 5:00 a.m. or after 9:30 p.m., unless the next day is not a school day;
(c) in excess of eight hours in any 24-hour period; or
(d) more than 40 hours in any week.

http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE34/htm/34_23_020300.htm

34-23-203. Permitted occupations for minors 16 or older.
Minors 16 years of age or older may work:
(1) in all occupations not declared hazardous; and
(2) in occupations which involve the use of motor vehicles if the minor is licensed to operate the motor vehicle for employment purposes under state law.

http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE34/htm/34_23_020400.htm

34-23-204. Permitted occupations for minors 14 or older.
(1) Minors 14 years of age or older may work in a wide variety of nonhazardous occupations including:
(a) retail food services;
(*) automobile service stations, except for the operation of motor vehicles and the use of hoists;
(c) public messenger service;
(d) janitorial and custodial service;
(e) lawn care;
(f) the use of approved types of vacuum cleaners, floor polishers, power lawn mowers, and sidewalk snow removal equipment; and
(g) other similar work as approved by the division.
(2) Minors 14 years of age or older may also work in nonhazardous areas in manufacturing, warehousing and storage, construction, and other such areas not determined harmful by the division.

http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE34/htm/34_23_020500.htm

34-23-205. Permitted occupations for minors 12 or older.
Minors 12 years of age or older may work in occupations such as:
(1) the sale and delivery of periodicals;
(2) door-to-door sale and delivery of merchandise;
(3) baby-sitting;
(4) nonhazardous agricultural work; and
(5) any other occupation not determined harmful by the division.

There is more on the main website, but I have found nothing to indicate that 'family business' grants an exception.

[Roux]

Some wanted to claim they were not family and should have been considered separately when the children were taken, but yet they are family when using under-age children to work?

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by Roux
Some wanted to claim they were not family and should have been considered separately when the children were taken, but yet they are family when using under-age children to work? [/*]

Confusing, isn't it?

A couple of things I have been able to ascertain in looking for the child labor statutes is that if there are competing rules, the rule which is the strictest in protecting the child is the one that will apply. IOW, a state may be pretty liberal in allowing children to work, but not to the extent that they would violate a federal law regarding safety.

Other thing is that the hazardous-ness factor seems to be the main determinant - if the job is dangerous, the child may not do it - family business or not.

JMO

[Roux]

This is changing our topic somewhat, but since we seem to be "stuck" on this sticky I'll post here.

I want to know more about the children, were said to be as many as 100 at one time, who were initially unclaimed. If all the children have now been returned as reported in the media early last week, what of the "unclaimed" children. This must be obvious evidence and truth to reports of mothers switching/wiping arm bands, giving different names, etc. That behavior seems to fly in the face of FLDS claims that they did nothing wrong and had nothing to hide.

Has anyone else wondered about this?

[walton]

Do they file taxes as one family?

[walton]

Originally posted by Bratlings



If you are a joint owner of a company with Joe Schmoe would you file your income taxes with him? NO, of course not! So why would you ask that?


You think at one time Bill Gates was filing his taxes with Paul Allen? :lol: [/*]

Are we talking about the same thing? or are we on two different subjects?

If the owners of the company are claiming that those kids are theirs only one set of parents could claim each child. They can't file taxes together.

I don't believe that children from family owned businesses are allowed to run big heavy equipment.

[walton]

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/jun/08/cps-workers-recount-events/

The date was April 3. The day was Thursday. The time was 10 p.m.

Voss and her investigators would not leave the ranch for 28 hours. The decisions they made while inside its fences would hearten some, infuriate others and unleash a national firestorm of praise and criticism the likes of which San Angelo had never seen before - and may never see again.

[MsTuri]

Originally posted by Imperfect


Yep to your comment, Katydid, and to MsTuri's as well.

Plus ... the younger the girls are when these adult burdens are placed on them, the more dependent they become -- and the more ties that bind them to the sect, literally and figuratively.

The chance that these girls, married off and pregnant as young as possible, will develop outside interests (education, career, etc.) is very slim, IMO. [/*]

I imagine the bond between the people and their prophet is very tight, and they feel they can't live without him, and don't want to!!!! Willing to die for him, they live like drones, reproduce, and the cycle repeats itself so that they are each fully immersed in all things Warren Jeffs. Or whoever the big cheese is now. I guess God said since Jeffs is in jail, they need another leader so I will send Jessop to run things. :D

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by walton
http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/jun/08/cps-workers-recount-events/

[/*]

Thanks!

It seems to me the San Angelo Times reporter has enough integrity to report without the hysterics we have all seen & heard from other members of the media.

Four hours of negotiation before the investigators could actually begin an investigation. Some raid, huh? No chaos. No ripping children from their mother's arms. Stonewalling & lies from the FLDS from the get-go - "changing birthdates, coached answers, missing or shredded documents."

[Roux]

Originally posted by Mimi428


Thanks!

It seems to me the San Angelo Times reporter has enough integrity to report without the hysterics we have all seen & heard from other members of the media.

Four hours of negotiation before the investigators could actually begin an investigation. Some raid, huh? No chaos. No ripping children from their mother's arms. Stonewalling & lies from the FLDS from the get-go - "changing birthdates, coached answers, missing or shredded documents." [/*]

Very good to have the CPS version of the encounter. Wonder how Willie will spin this article?

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by MsTuri


I imagine the bond between the people and their prophet is very tight, and they feel they can't live without him, and don't want to!!!! Willing to die for him, they live like drones, reproduce, and the cycle repeats itself so that they are each fully immersed in all things Warren Jeffs. Or whoever the big cheese is now. I guess God said since Jeffs is in jail, they need another leader so I will send Jessop to run things. :D [/*]

Having your eternal salvation in question & hanging in the balance is a powerful tool & it's been a controlling technique used by more groups than the FLDS, unfortunately.

Mothers stay because they can't bear to leave their children behind. Majority stays because they are completely at a loss to even begin to cope with losing every single person they have ever cared about. They don't own property in their own names & their lives & work are not their own - they belong to the group.

We've read & heard that Warren continues to run things from inside the jail, but I wonder how much the upper tier men are competing with one another to take over the reins, so to speak. Being incarcerated elevates Warren to a martyred status & that is going to cement many to him, I think. Especially since their early history is so dependent on their belief of Joseph Smith being a martyr. I can imagine there are more than a handful who are reinforcing the image of Warren being the 21st century version of Joseph Smith. Persecuted. Hounded. Unjustly incarcerated by infidels. Sainted martyr, dying for the one & only true church on this earth.

[walton]

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9525799

Jessop said the policy was not a reaction to the April 3 raid at the ranch, which led to the removal of some 450 children. A judge signed an order allowing the children to be returned to their parents hours before Jessop read the statement.
He said the policy had been in place for about 18 months and, because of attention brought on the group by the raid, was now being shared publicly.
"Not only do we mean it, we've lived it," he said, adding that the policy applied to both monogamous and plural marriages. "This isn't like the manifesto where we condemn it publicly and then do it privately," said Jessop, a reference to the 1890 declaration made by the mainstream Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints disavowing polygamy.


More Willie BS at the link.(Warning take boots and shovel)

[walton]

Originally posted by Mimi428


Having your eternal salvation in question & hanging in the balance is a powerful tool & it's been a controlling technique used by more groups than the FLDS, unfortunately.

Mothers stay because they can't bear to leave their children behind. Majority stays because they are completely at a loss to even begin to cope with losing every single person they have ever cared about. They don't own property in their own names & their lives & work are not their own - they belong to the group.

We've read & heard that Warren continues to run things from inside the jail, but I wonder how much the upper tier men are competing with one another to take over the reins, so to speak. Being incarcerated elevates Warren to a martyred status & that is going to cement many to him, I think. Especially since their early history is so dependent on their belief of Joseph Smith being a martyr. I can imagine there are more than a handful who are reinforcing the image of Warren being the 21st century version of Joseph Smith. Persecuted. Hounded. Unjustly incarcerated by infidels. Sainted martyr, dying for the one & only true church on this earth. [/*]

Mimi you are right on the money with your post.

I wonder what they will do with their Temple? Are they still working on the Ranch? Are those that are living away from the Ranch starting to become a part of society instead of hiding from society?

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by walton
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9525799

Jessop said the policy was not a reaction to the April 3 raid at the ranch, which led to the removal of some 450 children. A judge signed an order allowing the children to be returned to their parents hours before Jessop read the statement.
He said the policy had been in place for about 18 months and, because of attention brought on the group by the raid, was now being shared publicly.
"Not only do we mean it, we've lived it," he said, adding that the policy applied to both monogamous and plural marriages. "This isn't like the manifesto where we condemn it publicly and then do it privately," said Jessop, a reference to the 1890 declaration made by the mainstream Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints disavowing polygamy.


More Willie BS at the link.(Warning take boots and shovel) [/*]

I just finished reading this. WJessop is slinging it all over the place. Too bad all the men who have fathered children with underage girls at the ranch are long gone. No DNA from them I bet. I'm thinking the only DNA they have from the men is from the men who *knew* they had never fathered a child with an underage girl. At least they might be able to add to the charges for WJeffs.

:D yes boots and shovel are appropriate. In another recent statement, he quotes Joseph Smith and in the next breath he says they are not like their founder. Ummm, I dunno, I have trouble believing the guy. LOL

[MsTuri]

WJ says -"And we mean it!!"

Oh, ok. We will just run along then, since we have his WORD:rolleyes:

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by MsTuri
WJ says -"And we mean it!!"

Oh, ok. We will just run along then, since we have his WORD:rolleyes: [/*]

:lol: he doth protest too much and too loudly, doncha think.

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by walton

"Not only do we mean it, we've lived it," he said, adding that the policy applied to both monogamous and plural marriages. "This isn't like the manifesto where we condemn it publicly and then do it privately," said Jessop, a reference to the 1890 declaration made by the mainstream Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints disavowing polygamy.
[/*]

Wily like a fox, isn't he?

He adroitly managed to get in a major slam against mainstream LDS when he made the statement about condemning it publicly & yet doing it privately. That's a big ol' slap in the face to the bigger group, IMO. He reinforced that the FLDS are the 'true believers'. NO changes are being made by the FLDS to the original doctrine, the core belief - 'the principle'. They will simply wait until the females are not considered minors in whatever locale they are in before they pressure them into becoming spiritual wives.

[walton]

Originally posted by Mimi428


Wily like a fox, isn't he?

He adroitly managed to get in a major slam against mainstream LDS when he made the statement about condemning it publicly & yet doing it privately. That's a big ol' slap in the face to the bigger group, IMO. He reinforced that the FLDS are the 'true believers'. NO changes are being made by the FLDS to the original doctrine, the core belief - 'the principle'. They will simply wait until the females are not considered minors in whatever locale they are in before they pressure them into becoming spiritual wives. [/*]

Doesn't make any sense does it? If 18 months ago they all of a sudden decided to change things why was it that NOT one person mentioned it during the raid? Before the raid? or even after the raid? BS and more BS imo

The same goes with this whole thing concerning calling the shots. Willie can't call the shots. Who is Willie in this line of maddness? Fall Guy.

But who is buying this line? People that don't know the history and people that always believe the " I am sorry, I won't do it again. I promise."

[Ladyhawk]

Originally posted by KatyDid


I just finished reading this. WJessop is slinging it all over the place. Too bad all the men who have fathered children with underage girls at the ranch are long gone. No DNA from them I bet. I'm thinking the only DNA they have from the men is from the men who *knew* they had never fathered a child with an underage girl. At least they might be able to add to the charges for WJeffs.
~snip~
[/*]

There may be DNA from the absentee men.....the temple clothing was collected as evidence and that clothing is marked with their names and they don't dress up in each other's temple clothing.

jmo

[FoxySly]

Originally posted by Mimi428


Having your eternal salvation in question & hanging in the balance is a powerful tool & it's been a controlling technique used by more groups than the FLDS, unfortunately.

Mothers stay because they can't bear to leave their children behind. Majority stays because they are completely at a loss to even begin to cope with losing every single person they have ever cared about. They don't own property in their own names & their lives & work are not their own - they belong to the group.

We've read & heard that Warren continues to run things from inside the jail, but I wonder how much the upper tier men are competing with one another to take over the reins, so to speak. Being incarcerated elevates Warren to a martyred status & that is going to cement many to him, I think. Especially since their early history is so dependent on their belief of Joseph Smith being a martyr. I can imagine there are more than a handful who are reinforcing the image of Warren being the 21st century version of Joseph Smith. Persecuted. Hounded. Unjustly incarcerated by infidels. Sainted martyr, dying for the one & only true church on this earth. [/*]

ITA IMO A most excellent post!

IMO This is NO DIFFERENT from the first mormon prosecution claims that evaluated joseph smith to the martyr image he now holds fighting for his belief in polygamy except no shot-outs.

Sly

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by FoxySly
[/COLOR]

ITA IMO A most excellent post!

IMO This is NO DIFFERENT from the first mormon prosecution claims that evaluated joseph smith to the martyr image he now holds fighting for his belief in polygamy except no shot-outs.

Sly [/*]

Glad to have your input on this subject, Sly. Between Warren's incarceration & the recent removal of the children I think the elders in charge at the various locations will be doing their best to ratchet up the paranoia & reinforce the persecution beliefs.

At the moment, I'm not recalling many cults who DON'T work that angle very strongly. It's a useful tool in keeping the believers faithful. In an isolated community it can be worked to great advantage - the leadership can handpick different news items, highlight & exaggerate the elements of the story that seem the most persecuting - & then work overtime reminding the followers of how their sainted leaders suffer for them.

Jim Jones used it well - enough that he was able to convince his followers that they had to leave this country because of the way he, their leader, their *******, was being persecuted.

David Koresh not only used it VERY well, our government helped reinforce it with the tactics used during the siege.

I think it's human nature for people to have sympathy for anyone they believe is suffering - & the manipulators know exactly how to use that compassionate nature against them, to further their own interests.

JMO

[Roux]

I don't know exactly how to express this thought I've had, and am sure that many will disagree strongly, but compare the many attacks and criticisms of main-stream Christianity with the sympathy that is expressed to groups like FLDS and other cults. It seems like liberals and most of the media love to come to the defense of fringe groups, but are quick to insult the beliefs of Christians.

[Mimi428]

Roux - I think I understand what you are trying to convey. I don't know how long you have been familiar with any of the 'fringe groups', but in the 30+ years since I started to become familiar with 'fringe groups', I can say that the words of support I have seen for their position seems to come from just about every angle & group imaginable.

It does dishearten me to realize that so much of our news coverage is generated by the emotional & subjective approach. It horrifies me to see how often we get editorializing instead of news. The melding of entertainment & information has not done any of us any favors, IMO.

Timothy McVeigh is an extreme example (IMO) of someone who had a whole lot more than sympathy for 'fringe groups' - & I can't say that I would describe him as being even remotely liberal.

All the militia groups, the neo-Nazi bunch, the white supremicist organizations & such have a long history of being against anything like the CPS removal of the FLDS children from the YFZ compound - but I don't think it is because any of them are liberal nor are they motivated by any altruistic beliefs. They just don't like the government to have any interference, no matter how small, into our lives. So their railings against the CPS or the state of TX strikes me as simply opportunistic. They don't support the FLDS so much as they support being against anything the government does.

All in all, I just don't believe it is the FLDS itself that is being supported by outsiders. Perhaps they are by true libertarians. But supported for their religious beliefs & their actual practices - I don't really think so, with the exception of some (not all, just some) who are in the mainstream LDS.

JMO

[Roux]

Imp and Mimi, thanks for your input.

Heretofore I really never much paid attention to the various fringe groups, but I remember quite well hearing the news of the Jonestown mass murder/suicides. Heresy and false religion upsets me greatly.

The neo-Nazi types, I just figure hate government and agree that they oppose any control and intervention.

Scary to think about how many nuts there are running around out there. (and some are posting on these boards!!!)

Bottom line, I just hope we start to hear more about the DNA and criminal investigation.

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by Imperfect


Mimi - great post.

I agree about the opportunism. The thing that angers me is that it somehow gets cloaked in concern for (in this case) the FLDS mothers and children.

It's just the opposite, IMO. It's a willingness to defend the mothers and sacrifice the children on 'principle.' [/*]

I think if we had some magic potion that would allow us to actually know the reasons behind some of the statements that seem so supportive of the FLDS we would find out that the vast majority of supporters do not support anything specifically about the FLDS. Don't share their beliefs, wouldn't have a good word to say about them as individuals, etc. A handful probably do feel situational sympathy for them, but I would have serious doubts that if put to the test, they could actually demonstrate that they have any depth of knowledge of the group & their beliefs & practices.

Separating children from their mothers DOES tear at the heartstrings of most people with an ounce of human compassion. Look at how many of us could/would tear up just watching the scene in Dumbo where he is cruelly being taken away from his loving mother. (Mimi raises hand for that one)

But apart from that group, what I have read in the comments' sections of different online articles reflects more people who have a real beef with government actions. They do not, could not, would not, will not give half a fig for the wellbeing of the children. They simply have found a good platform from which to rail against the government. And that is all they are really interested in. Opportunistic, as you said.

Timothy McVeigh was enraged by the government's actions against the Branch Davidians. If he were alive today, I believe he would also be enraged by the removal of children from the FLDS compound by the state of TX. But it sure as heck wouldn't be because he actually had one morsel of concern for ANY of them as human beings. He had the capacity to slaughter innocent citizens, children among them & refer to them all as nothing more than 'collateral damage'.

JMO

[Vinnie]

Some excellent posts here. There are those who are purely anti-government who don't care about the FLDS at all. There are others who want agencies on a short tether so they don't overstep their authority (which I understand). There are yet others who haven't educated themselves about the abuses of the FLDS and therefore see them as something akin to the Amish (ridiculous comparison).

All of them are short-sighted about the FLDS because it has devolved into an incredibly lawless organization that in essence practices slavery, the highest form of neglect, bribery, and blackmailing, along with a host of other criminal offenses.

Slavery? They traffic in young girls. If a girl or wife attempts to escape, they will track her down, return her, and force her to move about with captors until they break her will.

Neglect? They will dump young teen boys by the side of a road in the desert, forcing them to fend for themselves (if they can).

Bribery? They separate men from their families and force them to "repent from afar" while making them continue to tithe in the hope they can be forgiven (they won't be).

Blackmail? They also force these men to record all their sins and send them to the prophet to see if their list matches the prophets. Convenient, isn't it?

[KatyDid]

If this has been posted, apologies. I hadn't seen it, but I haven't been on the board much lately.

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=3490217

Poll: Utahns don't trust promises of FLDS parents
June 8th, 2008 @ 10:00pm
John Hollenhorst reporting

The story of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS) Texas climaxed last week when hundreds of children were sent back to their parents. But many Utahns are skeptical of promises made by the FLDS parents.

A new KSL poll reveals even more skepticism about their church's pledge to abolish underage marriage. Now, an old sermon by FLDS prophet Warren Jeffs may add fuel to that skepticism.

The tapes are among hundreds of sermons Jeffs recorded years ago. According to former members, his devoted followers play those tapes over and over in their homes. In one sermon he justifies false promises to authorities.

In one sermon Jeffs taught, "A family can only be a family by appointment of the prophets. You can only get married and be a priesthood family if he says who you should marry."

To get their children back, FLDS parents agreed to follow various court orders, and the church made a promise to the public: "The church commits that it will not preside over any marriage of any woman under the age of legal consent," FLDS spokesman Willie Jessop said.

Utahns are highly skeptical. Almost half believe the FLDS will probably or definitely not follow the court orders. Only one-third believe they will. Almost three-fourths are skeptical of the promise to halt underage marriage, and only 2 percent believe the FLDS definitely will give it up.



IMO, if anybody know the FLDS, it is Utahns. They've been living with them for over a hundred years.

[SmartyPantz]

Agreed Vinnie...

This seems to be more about Governmental issues... and less about the welfare of the children. I am absolutely shocked at the level of disregard for childrens welfare among the FLDS supporters. To say the Government needs to change their ways, and not agreeing with their policies is one thing... but to say there isn't anything wrong with the FLDS and the way they treat women and children is just amazing to me! :shrug:


All IMO

PS... Mimi... your awesome! Love your thoughts, love your delivery! :seeya:

[juliekan]

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/366478_youngonline11.html

"The state's claims--that 31 teenage girls were impregnated--were way off. It turns out that all but five were legal adults."


"This may sound to you like an exoneration of the FLDS. It may also bring to one's mind the phrase "a little bit pregnant." Five pregnant children is no small deal."


PS
You guys are posting absolutely poetically today!:beer:

[juliekan]

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/jun/11/raid-changed-county-forever/

"When Schleicher Couonty residents learned four years ago that a strange sect was settling in their midst, the immediate concern wasn't about men having sex with young girls."

"An FLDS spokesman said the group would register 500 of the church members as voters so they could elect people of integrity who stood for the ideals they support."

Scary

[evalles]

Originally posted by juliekan
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/366478_youngonline11.html

"The state's claims--that 31 teenage girls were impregnated--were way off. It turns out that all but five were legal adults."


"This may sound to you like an exoneration of the FLDS. It may also bring to one's mind the phrase "a little bit pregnant." Five pregnant children is no small deal."


PS
You guys are posting absolutely poetically today!:beer: [/*]

Five pregnant teens is far from uncommon and can happen in any 'normal' community.
Classifying adults as children however, is far from normal.
They were wrong about 26 out of 31. They don't have a very good track record.

[walton]

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_9553571

"This was an effort to make sure we are all communicating and working together, if enforcement action is necessary," he added.
No plans were made for any joint task force, Brower said. But the high-level interest should put potential law-breakers in polygamous communities on notice.
"The public should know that to the extent that these communities are running afoul of the law, in any way, that is something federal, state and local law enforcement are watching and taking very seriously, and will act upon if appropriate," he said.

The Utah Attorney General's Office announced Friday that Pat Merkley has been hired to lead the Safety Net Committee. She will take over the post in August.

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_9509961

The Legislature earlier this year set aside $305,000 to fund the position, hire a case manager, support the domestic violence hot line and cover other expenses related to the Safety Net Committee. The state had used a three-year federal grant to cover its activities, but lost the funds last summer.
The committee has brought both defenders and critics of plural marriage together in what at times has been an uneasy alliance.
One group, Tapestry Against Polygamy, refused to participate because the committee included women in polygamous relationships; some members have resisted a push from fundamentalists to tackle decriminalization of the lifestyle.

Yes? No? Maybe?

If they can't get it straight on top how in the heck can they expect anyone else to know what is going on?

imo a Federal Task force is needed and they need to start looking at the top on down.

[walton]

Originally posted by evalles


Five pregnant teens is far from uncommon and can happen in any 'normal' community.
Classifying adults as children however, is far from normal.
They were wrong about 26 out of 31. They don't have a very good track record. [/*]

:seeya: Evening evalles

I forget how many pregnant teens did Utah or Arizona rescue?

What you say? None?

They repeatedly sent the offender back home to live with his victim you say?

Classifying sex offenders as husbands and parents however, is in my neighborhood far from normal. jmo

They'd be out on their ear.

[evalles]

Originally posted by walton


:seeya: Evening evalles

I forget how many pregnant teens did Utah or Arizona rescue?

What you say? None?

They repeatedly sent the offender back home to live with his victim you say?

Classifying sex offenders as husbands and parents however, is in my neighborhood far from normal. jmo

They'd be out on their ear. [/*]

Five pregnant teens. 26 adults classified as minors.
I'm talkin' about Texas and this case.

Instead of all the rhetoric, answer one question.

In any community, would it be shocking to find five pregnant teenagers ?
Yes or No ?

[walton]

Originally posted by evalles


Five pregnant teens. 26 adults classified as minors.
I'm talkin' about Texas and this case.

Instead of all the rhetoric, answer one question.

In any community, would it be shocking to find five pregnant teenagers ?
Yes or No ? [/*]

Maybe I am out of the loop. But I do believe that it would be shocking to find 5 teenage girls prenant in this community. I'll ask some questions Thursday and I'll get back to ya some more on this one.

Let alone any of them married to their fathers brother, stepfather, stepbrother, uncle or grandfather.

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by walton
http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_9553571

[/*]

One topic discussed: documents and other evidence gathered in the April raid on the YFZ Ranch in ElDorado Texas, and how other states may gain access to it. Shurtleff said the evidence is more voluminous than anything previously collected on the FLDS.
"We'll know a lot once their records in Texas have been gone through," Shurtleff said.

Thanks for posting that link, Walton.

I'm thinking that of all the things that have put the FLDS' knickers in a twist, the fear of what the government will learn about them from all those seized documents is probably their biggest, most overwhelming concern.

The task of sorting & filing & cross-referencing that ton of information is no doubt going to be gigantic, but I do believe it will ultimately prove to be the undoing of Warren's group. So much of what they have been able to accomplish would never have come to pass if they had not been so well funded by the government in one way or another. Government contracts done by child labor, TANF benefits to FLDS mothers, etc.

I believe the state will prevail on the admissability issues that are sure to be raised the the FLDS.

If nothing else worries Warren & Willie & the boys, knowing that the state has allllllll those documents must surely be giving them nightmares.

JMO

[spirit07]

Originally posted by evalles


Five pregnant teens is far from uncommon and can happen in any 'normal' community.
Classifying adults as children however, is far from normal.
They were wrong about 26 out of 31. They don't have a very good track record. [/*]


I grew up in a community of 1,000. To have two pregnant teens at one time was unusual, but not unheard of. Never, can I remember any teen getting pregnant by someone more than 2-3 years older than her.

The FLDS boys were forbidden to have certain kinds of contact with the girls, which means the pregnancy rate below the age of 18 should be about nil.

I would also bet that very few of the 26 were pregnant by men near their age. In the normal population, how many 20 year old women mary a 56 year old?

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by spirit07


The FLDS boys were forbidden to have certain kinds of contact with the girls, which means the pregnancy rate below the age of 18 should be about nil.
[/*]


:beer:

Winner. Post of the day, IMO. Thank you for making that VERY relevant point.

[juliekan]

Warren & Willie & the boys...Mimi is definantly from Texas :D

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by Imperfect
Mimi,

I'm sure the prophet is revelatin from every last one of his orifices right about now.

[/*]

Of that, I have no doubt. I hope he's being medically evaluated as is necessary, because I believe Warren is savvy enough to recognize that once the money trails are uncovered, they can be attacked from every legal angle.

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by juliekan
Warren & Willie & the boys...Mimi is definantly from Texas :D [/*]

Yep!

:beer:


:seeya:

Oooh - I almost forgot - I read a blurb earlier (might have been on the Austin American Statesman website but don't make me swear to it) that LE has been able to identify a 'person of interest' in regards to the arson at the Governor's Mansion. Don't have a link & it may be premature, but it is being speculated on. Didn't say whether it could be FLDS related, though.

[walton]

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700233581,00.html

The Washington (Utah) County Sheriff's Office sent Texas authorities dossiers of several FLDS members "who may engage in acts of intimidation or violence again law enforcement and/or potential witnesses."
The information, obtained by the Deseret News through Texas public records laws, includes intelligence compiled during Warren Jeffs' 2007 trial in St. George for performing an underage marriage.




Check out the photos.

Nothing to hide huh? Straight forward huh? Humphrey Bogart would have a field day with the whole bunch of em.



I feel bad for Ruth. :rose: People could learn a lot from her. imo

[juliekan]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by walton
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700233581,00.html

<snipped>

"Lyle Steed Jeffs: acted as wedding security during illegal marriages..."

Why would they need security? Apparently they know it's illegal? Or to keep the bride from running? Talk about a shotgun wedding in reverse...

[walton]

Originally posted by Imperfect


Aaarrrghh. That extreme close up of King Willie is sure to give me nightmares.

IMO, while none of this group has done anything violent yet (that we know of), they're all just one Warren revelation away from whatever marching orders he gives them.

Also IMO, they're in a situation unlike any they've ever faced, so all bets are off as far as I'm concerned. This new situation could easily bring about new behavior. [/*]

Do you remember the unibrow lady that was on Larry King.

" This is America home of the Free land of the brave."

She sure did an awful lot of talking about the Hollocaust and the Nazi's. imo

Maybe some of the fanatical groups are linked up with the FLDS.

Have you seen the posts made on Brookes blog? They concerned me and I am safe in my own home.

It doesn't surprise me that Willie is making comments that don't make any sense but what surprises me is the lack of comments from the rest of the LDS. Why didn't their mouths drop open when Willie made the comment about the underage girls being off limits. Like it was a revelation or something.

Where is Rod Parkers voice now? Silently watching Willie do what exactly? None of it makes sense. Rod knows that Willie (the voice) is Warrens body guard.

Whatever happened to the plane that the FLDS owned? Is it in Canada?

I wonder if Winston has had any southern visitors as of late?

lol ( I know Winston knows more than he is saying.)

[evalles]

Originally posted by Imperfect


Adults who have no ID and look like children due to their costumes, hairdos, and isolation from the rest of society is far from normal.

I love how we keep hearing about how TX was wrong in assuming so many adult women might be minors. THEY HAD NO ID'S.

What was the state supposed to do ... contact a few palm readers and a psychic or two to try to figure out how old the women were? If their demeanor wasn't childlike due to their stunted life experience -- and if THEY HAD ID's -- there would have been no question about their ages. [/*]

There were several cases where the women and their attorneys claim to have presented DL's and birth certificates, but were made to go to court before being reclassiied. There was one woman that was 37 years old and had a job off the ranch. Another was 27.
How do you think they proved they were adults ? With documentation.
It's patently false that none provided ID.

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by juliekan
[QUOTE]Originally posted by walton
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700233581,00.html

<snipped>

"Lyle Steed Jeffs: acted as wedding security during illegal marriages..."

Why would they need security? Apparently they know it's illegal? Or to keep the bride from running? Talk about a shotgun wedding in reverse... [/*]

What they DO totally contradicts what they SAY :cuss:

Of course they know it is illegal, but they don't care. According to Willie R Jessop, they can infiltrate the government by signing up voters and getting FLDS sympathizers in office. They have gotten away with it in Utah and Arizona for years. Warren's ego and greed may become their downfall.

Time for America to wake up.

[evalles]

Originally posted by Imperfect


Yes it would, if those five pregnant teens had been marched to the beds of their baby daddies by their very own mothers and fathers.

That's about as shocking as it gets, IMO. [/*]

Can't answer a yes or no question, huh ?

Are pregnant teenagers exclusive to the FLDS ? No.
Is 5 a huge number ? No.
Since we don't know the circumstances behind these pregnancies, we don't know who the fathers were.
Did these 5 girls get to go home ?

[evalles]

Originally posted by KatyDid


What they DO totally contradicts what they SAY :cuss:

Of course they know it is illegal, but they don't care. According to Willie R Jessop, they can infiltrate the government by signing up voters and getting FLDS sympathizers in office. They have gotten away with it in Utah and Arizona for years. Warren's ego and greed may become their downfall.

Time for America to wake up. [/*]

[evalles]

The FLDS boys were forbidden to have certain kinds of contact with the girls, which means the pregnancy rate below the age of 18 should be about nil.
[/*]

__________________________________________________

But it doesn't mean they didn't. Wasn't it Flora who was married but got pregnant by another FLDS man ?

[juliekan]

Originally posted by evalles


Five pregnant teens is far from uncommon and can happen in any 'normal' community.
Classifying adults as children however, is far from normal.
They were wrong about 26 out of 31. They don't have a very good track record. [/*]

As many have surmised, I must be from an abnormal community.

I am from a town of 2650, and never more than 2 teenagers pregnant (during a school year, there is only 1 el, 1 jr high, 1 hs). What was the population at YFZ? Way less...and yet their pregnancy rate was greater

[walton]

I don't know how to get this here with out doing the cache thing.

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:AOrfhI-kuRAJ:www.mohavecountynews.com/countysupervisor/news/news_091106.htm+flora+jessop+buster+johnson&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us

Parents are supposed to represent the ultimate in love, sacrifice and protection for a child. It is a disgrace and an outrage to every man who has ever lovingly and honorably taken on the awesome responsibility of being a step father to say that this man had the qualities ascribed to him by Mr. Hawkins of "courage" and "class". Exactly how courageous and "classy" is it to participate in sexual relations with both a woman and her 16 year old daughter under any circumstance, much less when she has looked up to you as a child, trusted and relied on you , calling you her "father". Cloaking the entire thing in "religion" only makes it more disgusting and outrageous. As a matter of fact, perhaps we are overlooking another culprit in this crime against a child, the mother. The job of every parent is to protect their children, no matter what.

Though her letter is 2 years old. The date doesn't change any of the facts or stories she mentioned.

[walton]

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy90.html

Now this was written in 2002 but again look at what was said and what has happened since.

So many voices unheard. The victim list grew and nobody cared enough to do a damn thing.

Thank God for Texas. :patriot:

Thank God for people who care enough to step up to the plate.



Flora Jessop was born and raised in Colorado City. Her father, Joseph Jessop, has two wives who produced 28 children. Her uncle, Fred Jessop, is one of the top FLDS officials.

Inspired by her grandmother, Flora says she stood up against the sexual abuse at her father's hands.

When she was 13 years old, she says she pressed sexual assault charges against her father in St. George, Utah.

The case was dismissed, she says, after she saw her father give the judge $4,000 in cash.

Upon her return to Colorado City, Flora says she was confined into one room of a house where she lived by herself for the next three years. During this period, she was beaten on several occasions.

"They were trying to break my spirit. What they did was kill all my emotions," she says.

[walton]

Originally posted by Texas-SE
Here's an article that appeared on FLDS website attacking persons they don't like such as Gov. Perry and other persons in government & the media.

http://www.truthwillprevail.org/index.php?parentid=1&index=58

Is this opinion or a hit list for enforceers? In addition to Texas state Rep. Hilderbran and Gov. Perry the following are listed:

· Mark L. Shurtleff, Utah Attorney General, who has boasted that he is driving the FLDS out of Utah.
· Sam Brower, Private Investigator targeting the FLDS in Utah and Arizona.
· Randy Mankin, Publisher of the Eldorado Success and city administrator of Eldorado, Texas.
· Jon Krakauer, Author of Under the Banner of Heaven, a sensationalized history of fundamentalist groups in Utah.

IMO strange & stranger yet!:shrug: [/*]



:eek:

What the heck do they know about Jon Krakauer?

wow. no mention of InSession message board. :)

[walton]

http://www.truthwillprevail.org/index.php?parentid=1&index=28

Funny this guy never brought up Willies newest and latest revelation that everyone talked about 18 months ago.

[juliekan]

Originally posted by walton
http://www.truthwillprevail.org/index.php?parentid=1&index=28

Funny this guy never brought up Willies newest and latest revelation that everyone talked about 18 months ago. [/*]

I just noticed that the wording and arguments of this article sounds a lot like some of our posters....hmmmmm.

[evalles]

Originally posted by Imperfect


Can't see the forest for the trees, huh?

If you honestly believe there's no difference between a pregnant teen who got that way because she crawled into the backseat of some teenage boy's car, and a pregnant teen who got that way because she was handed over BY HER LOVING PARENTS to some male selected for her by a third party, then I honest to God don't know what else to say to you.

There is none so blind as [s]he who WILL. NOT. SEE. [/*]

I see that you're unable or don't want to answer yes or no.

Please prove that happened in these 5 cases since it appears you're posting this as if it were fact.

[evalles]

Originally posted by juliekan


I just noticed that the wording and arguments of this article sounds a lot like some of our posters....hmmmmm. [/*]


Who ?