6/5 to 6/12 (FLDS & 19th Century Marriage)

[evalles]

Originally posted by Mimi428


Yep!

:beer:


:seeya:

Oooh - I almost forgot - I read a blurb earlier (might have been on the Austin American Statesman website but don't make me swear to it) that LE has been able to identify a 'person of interest' in regards to the arson at the Governor's Mansion. Don't have a link & it may be premature, but it is being speculated on. Didn't say whether it could be FLDS related, though. [/*]

I think it's FLDS related.

[spirit07]

Originally posted by evalles
The FLDS boys were forbidden to have certain kinds of contact with the girls, which means the pregnancy rate below the age of 18 should be about nil.
[/*]

__________________________________________________

But it doesn't mean they didn't. Wasn't it Flora who was married but got pregnant by another FLDS man ? [/*]


Oh, come on evalles, you know darn well there are probably very few underage pregnancies as a result of two teenagers getting together. Whether it has ever happened once in a blue moon is not the point. Some of them have fallen in love with others their own age. If I remember correctly, most were denied the right to marry. Wonder what happens if a teenage boy does get a teenage girl pregnant - bet the boy is outta there and she is 'assigned' to some greasy old fart as a husband.

We also don't know for sure if the 'older' ones who were pregnant really had valid ID or if some pregnant girls were hidden. What were they doing in that 4 hours it took to let the investigators in - we know they shredded documents. And, we know that anytime possible they interferred in other ways as far as ID'ing people. It's an old tactic, stall things, suck up resources, give the investigators the runaround hoping the truth will never come to light. In one sense the FLDS won at this game because children went back before they could complete the investigation, esp the DNA testing. On the other hand, the evidence is there now.

This is not like a bunch of folks in a commune or a group simply being persecuted for religious beliefs or because they are different. The FLDS leadership has built up an empire replete with guns, child labor, child brides, and a mafia like organization.

[spirit07]

Originally posted by Imperfect


Walton - from that article:



His premise is that the underage marriage accusations are the result of hysteria, bitter ex-members, blah blah blah. In other words, a figment of some active imaginations.

Nowhere in the article does he address the PICTURES of the PROPHET with his 12 and 13 year-old BRIDES.

They really, honestly think we're a bunch of idiots - that much gets clearer every day. [/*]


Good grief, I can't believe they are now denying this and claiming ex-members are lying. Wonder how they are explaining the fact that Warren Jeff's dad said they should not have anymore underage marriages if there weren't any in the first place?

And, yes, the icky pictures of Warren. That one girl doesn't even look like she has gone through puberty. Wasn't there an 11 year old identified also or that they found one of the two girls was actually 11 when the pics were taken? And, members of the FLDS told investigators there was no age too young to marry - that it was only based on when the girl was ready to be a spiritual bride or something of that nature.

[evalles]

Originally posted by spirit07



Oh, come on evalles, you know darn well there are probably very few underage pregnancies as a result of two teenagers getting together. Whether it has ever happened once in a blue moon is not the point. Some of them have fallen in love with others their own age. If I remember correctly, most were denied the right to marry. Wonder what happens if a teenage boy does get a teenage girl pregnant - bet the boy is outta there and she is 'assigned' to some greasy old fart as a husband.

We also don't know for sure if the 'older' ones who were pregnant really had valid ID or if some pregnant girls were hidden. What were they doing in that 4 hours it took to let the investigators in - we know they shredded documents. And, we know that anytime possible they interferred in other ways as far as ID'ing people. It's an old tactic, stall things, suck up resources, give the investigators the runaround hoping the truth will never come to light. In one sense the FLDS won at this game because children went back before they could complete the investigation, esp the DNA testing. On the other hand, the evidence is there now.

This is not like a bunch of folks in a commune or a group simply being persecuted for religious beliefs or because they are different. The FLDS leadership has built up an empire replete with guns, child labor, child brides, and a mafia like organization. [/*]

No, I don't know and won't know until the evidence is presented.

Do you believe everything you read ? Where is there any evidence that show there is any illegal drug activity on this compound ? Mafia like organization ? Were any of the 16 supposed 'threats' to Walthers convicted of having illegal weapons ? What about assaults ? There was nothing factual to back up their very creative 'dossier'.
It's propaganda, the media feeds it to you and you're not willing to read between the lines.

Wouldn't you think they'e mention convictions to back up their claims ? I think it's hilarious. Very creative on their part.

[Ladyhawk]

Originally posted by evalles


I think it's FLDS related. [/*]

If it is FLDS related I would think it would be to retaliate for the defiling of the YFZ temple. Their temple is sacred ground and because outsiders, people not of the faith entered it, it is now useless to them. They believe it can never be cleansed....can't be restored. The governors mansion certainly has meaning to the people of Texas, it's a historical landmark for heavens sake...large, white, columns on the front and it's burnable. The capitol would have been a better target but granite doesn't burn.

jmo

[spirit07]

Originally posted by evalles


No, I don't know and won't know until the evidence is presented.

Do you believe everything you read ? Where is there any evidence that show there is any illegal drug activity on this compound ? Mafia like organization ? Were any of the 16 supposed 'threats' to Walthers convicted of having illegal weapons ? What about assaults ? There was nothing factual to back up their very creative 'dossier'.
It's propaganda, the media feeds it to you and you're not willing to read between the lines.

Wouldn't you think they'e mention convictions to back up their claims ? I think it's hilarious. Very creative on their part. [/*]

"Do you believe everything you read ?" - this is just a straw man argument. Don't be condascending to me and insult my intelligence. The FLDS has been investigated for years and folks in Colorado are the ones saying they are basically like other organized crime groups. Do you really think they have no evidence of that? Hardly.

Do you know what a case study is? Well, this is one big case study that has been going on for years albeit in different states and with different organizations - being pulled together now, I'm sure. There have been convictions and there is a lot of hard evidence as well as the notes and experienced observations of different professionals. You also seem to be basing your opinion on the limited quotes in the one article about the 'dossiers' - have you read the original documents and do you know how extensive they might be? And, do you have any idea what other related documentation may exist? If so, please, bring it forward. I sincerely do not think these folks doing the investigation are as silly as you make them sound.

[evalles]

Originally posted by spirit07


"Do you believe everything you read ?" - this is just a straw man argument. Don't be condascending to me and insult my intelligence. The FLDS has been investigated for years and folks in Colorado are the ones saying they are basically like other organized crime groups. Do you really think they have no evidence of that? Hardly.

Do you know what a case study is? Well, this is one big case study that has been going on for years albeit in different states and with different organizations - being pulled together now, I'm sure. There have been convictions and there is a lot of hard evidence as well as the notes and experienced observations of different professionals. You also seem to be basing your opinion on the limited quotes in the one article about the 'dossiers' - have you read the original documents and do you know how extensive they might be? And, do you have any idea what other related documentation may exist? If so, please, bring it forward. I sincerely do not think these folks doing the investigation are as silly as you make them sound. [/*]


Show me the hard evidence.

[spirit07]

Originally posted by evalles



Show me the hard evidence. [/*]


You entirely missed the point, but, oh well.

[Roux]

Originally posted by evalles



Show me the hard evidence. [/*]

You asked Spirit "do you believe everything you read" and yet you seem to believe everything you read on the truth will prevail site.

It appears this has now evolved beyond your bias toward CPS to a complete defense of everything connected to FLDS.

[evalles]

Originally posted by Ladyhawk


If it is FLDS related I would think it would be to retaliate for the defiling of the YFZ temple. Their temple is sacred ground and because outsiders, people not of the faith entered it, it is now useless to them. They believe it can never be cleansed....can't be restored. The governors mansion certainly has meaning to the people of Texas, it's a historical landmark for heavens sake...large, white, columns on the front and it's burnable. The capitol would have been a better target but granite doesn't burn.

jmo [/*]

I didn't think of it that way. You're right. I thought it was someone that was mad about the civil rights violations, but not an actual member.

[SmartyPantz]

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/0527081flds2.html


:no:

[spirit07]

Originally posted by Roux


You asked Spirit "do you believe everything you read" and yet you seem to believe everything you read on the truth will prevail site.

It appears this has now evolved beyond your bias toward CPS to a complete defense of everything connected to FLDS. [/*]


Banal thoughts do not justify reasoning (or lack thereof) and are not really meaningful. Notice how often the pick-n-choose strategy is employed in responding and, as you note, the strategy changes. When you can't even admit that it is more than probable teenage girls were not impregnated by teenage boys in this context, or that a mountain of evidence over decades of time is significant, or that those leaving this cult are not all liars, it's time to wonder about your own thinking and motives. Oh, that's right, we should go look up all the documentation to prove anything shady is going on and even dismiss what the cult members have done or said recently that is negative! Why does this remind me of the FLDS's incessant chatter - like anyone is buying it.

[evalles]

Originally posted by spirit07



Banal thoughts do not justify reasoning (or lack thereof) and are not really meaningful. Notice how often the pick-n-choose strategy is employed in responding and, as you note, the strategy changes. When you can't even admit that it is more than probable teenage girls were not impregnated by teenage boys in this context, or that a mountain of evidence over decades of time is significant, or that those leaving this cult are not all liars, it's time to wonder about your own thinking and motives. Oh, that's right, we should go look up all the documentation to prove anything shady is going on and even dismiss what the cult members have done or said recently that is negative! Why does this remind me of the FLDS's incessant chatter - like anyone is buying it. [/*]

I'm glad that this thinking is not rampant ouside of this board.

I didn't say anything about CPS, did I ?

[spirit07]

Originally posted by evalles


Ok... Where are the guns and mafia like activity, or pictures of anyone beside Jeff's ?
This is hardly evidence that all the allegations are true. [/*]

What was found when Jeff's was caught in Nevada?

What did the El Dorado neighbors say? There's an interview with them.

Why are high level people in Colorado claiming the FLDS is like an organized crime syndicate?

Do you think they would legally register their arsenal of guns? If so, then maybe you can tell us how many guns are owned by the FLDS and how that compares to the regular population.

[spirit07]

Originally posted by evalles


I'm glad that this thinking is not rampant ouside of this board.

I didn't say anything about CPS, did I ? [/*]

Nothing about CPS? Are you kidding? Maybe not in your most recent posts, but we heard about it incessantly for quite a while.

[Roux]

Originally posted by walton
http://www.truthwillprevail.org/index.php?parentid=1&index=28

Funny this guy never brought up Willies newest and latest revelation that everyone talked about 18 months ago. [/*]

The last paragraph of that article made me LOL. He says "there is an old saying" by their fruits shall ye know them -- it's not an old saying, it's scripture from the BIBLE. And IMO we sure as heck know this bunch by their fruits!

[evalles]

Originally posted by spirit07


What was found when Jeff's was caught in Nevada?

What did the El Dorado neighbors say? There's an interview with them.

Why are high level people in Colorado claiming the FLDS is like an organized crime syndicate?

Do you think they would legally register their arsenal of guns? If so, then maybe you can tell us how many guns are owned by the FLDS and how that compares to the regular population. [/*]

You can own guns in Texas, shouldn't there be some kind of charges or convictions beforeslandering the people the way the state has done ?

[spirit07]

Originally posted by evalles


You can own guns in Texas, shouldn't there be some kind of charges or convictions beforeslandering the people the way the state has done ? [/*]


I'm not sure where you are getting slander. Are you talking about the reports of the 'dossiers' - it sounds to me like officials had one hell of a time even conducting a trial and given the info/knowledge they had, there was reason to look into these people. I don't think it's rocket science to see that people at the trial were being intimidated. I'm sure there is a whole lot more backing up these claims, even videotapes of the behavior would probably make it evident. I don't call this slander.

[spirit07]

Originally posted by evalles


You can own guns in Texas, shouldn't there be some kind of charges or convictions beforeslandering the people the way the state has done ? [/*]


So what? You can own guns anywhere.

[evalles]

Originally posted by spirit07



So what? You can own guns anywhere. [/*]

You mentioned guns, I haven't read anywhere that they're breaking the law by owning guns.

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by spirit07


What was found when Jeff's was caught in Nevada?

What did the El Dorado neighbors say? There's an interview with them.

Why are high level people in Colorado claiming the FLDS is like an organized crime syndicate?

Do you think they would legally register their arsenal of guns? If so, then maybe you can tell us how many guns are owned by the FLDS and how that compares to the regular population. [/*]

The only thing they register 'legally', is to vote, and that may be suspect too, IMO.

[evalles]

Originally posted by KatyDid


The only thing they register 'legally', is to vote, and that may be suspect too, IMO. [/*]

But there's no proof to back that up.

[walton]

Originally posted by Imperfect


Walton - from that article:



His premise is that the underage marriage accusations are the result of hysteria, bitter ex-members, blah blah blah. In other words, a figment of some active imaginations.

Nowhere in the article does he address the PICTURES of the PROPHET with his 12 and 13 year-old BRIDES.

They really, honestly think we're a bunch of idiots - that much gets clearer every day. [/*]

That part of their brain is just not working. I noticed it when the women were interviewed and they couldn't respond to certain questions.

Sad really.

[walton]

Originally posted by juliekan


I just noticed that the wording and arguments of this article sounds a lot like some of our posters....hmmmmm. [/*]

When the links first came out to their sites I thought that.

Supposedly the guy that runs the site is from Florida but then I had read somewhere that he/she might have moved to Georgia.

:shrug:



No matter to me. Anything I've said here I'd same the same elsewhere using my same nic. Some people have to hide/are use to hiding/ wanna hide or wish they could hide. But it all comes out.

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by Roux


The last paragraph of that article made me LOL. He says "there is an old saying" by their fruits shall ye know them -- it's not an old saying, it's scripture from the BIBLE. And IMO we sure as heck know this bunch by their fruits! [/*]

:lol: Roux, your response is classic. I am ROTFLMBO!

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by evalles


But there's no proof to back that up. [/*]

:confused: I said it was IN MY OPINION.

Maybe you missed the IMO. :D

[walton]

Bill Medvecky this is the name of the guy that runs the FLDS sites. It was posted in the Deseret News link about the threats.

[walton]

Originally posted by evalles



Show me the hard evidence. [/*]

Someone else posted this link. http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy395.html

It is a long read but it is a very very interesting read.

*There is a credible report that Jeffs wants to begin practicing a 19th-century Mormon doctrine calling for the ritualistic human sacrifice of "apostates" who dissent from his rules.

*Colorado City's electric utility is illegally diverting power-generation and distribution equipment to the Texas compound.
*Colorado City employees are receiving taxpayer-funded salaries to work on secret FLDS projects.

*Colorado City officials and police have regularly used municipal phones to maintain close communication with FLDS leaders in *Canada and elsewhere, raising suspicion that they are using public resources to help Jeffs avoid arrest.

*A courier suspected to be on his way to Warren Jeffs with $200,000 in cash and other materials was arrested October 28, indicating to authorities that the FLDS has a network in place to support Jeffs while he is on the run.




This is only a little bit.

[lotty]

http://origin.sltrib.com/ci_9564111

Civil rights investigation
FBI probe in 1980s: Lost chance to curb FLDS leaders?
Evicting the unfaithful did not violate rights, feds found
By Nate Carlisle
The Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated: 06/12/2008 02:28:51 PM MDT

Long before today's debate over the need for a federal task force to probe the FLDS Church, a federal civil rights investigation concluded the polygamous sect was doing nothing worth prosecuting...
'He's strengthened': Huntsman believes the 1985 investigation was too narrow, arguing the FBI and prosecutors should have considered using racketeering, or RICO, statutes, generally aimed at organized crime and large criminal operations.

JMO/IMO this is an interesting read, going back to 1985 and 1986.

[lotty]

Originally posted by Imperfect
I find it interesting that so many of the FLDS mothers/parents were able to so quickly obtain and move into housing all over the state of TX.

It takes a good chunk of change to rent a home, furnish it, and buy all the necessities that were most likely shared in their 'group homes' on the ranch -- like everything to outfit a kitchen.

The sect seems to have lots and lots of spending money that can be made quickly available as necessary. [/*]

Yep, I wonder how they do that?

[evalles]

Originally posted by walton


Someone else posted this link. http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy395.html

It is a long read but it is a very very interesting read.

*There is a credible report that Jeffs wants to begin practicing a 19th-century Mormon doctrine calling for the ritualistic human sacrifice of "apostates" who dissent from his rules.

*Colorado City's electric utility is illegally diverting power-generation and distribution equipment to the Texas compound.
*Colorado City employees are receiving taxpayer-funded salaries to work on secret FLDS projects.

*Colorado City officials and police have regularly used municipal phones to maintain close communication with FLDS leaders in *Canada and elsewhere, raising suspicion that they are using public resources to help Jeffs avoid arrest.

*A courier suspected to be on his way to Warren Jeffs with $200,000 in cash and other materials was arrested October 28, indicating to authorities that the FLDS has a network in place to support Jeffs while he is on the run.




This is only a little bit. [/*]

Who was the credible reporter ?
The human sacrifice thing is a little to far out there for me to buy into.

Texas should have added the Colorado City officials to their dossier.

[walton]

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2006-08-24/news/john-dougherty-resigns/

John Dougherty. I enjoyed reading his articles.

[evalles]

Originally posted by walton
Bill Medvecky this is the name of the guy that runs the FLDS sites. It was posted in the Deseret News link about the threats. [/*]

On Bill Medvecky

I keep getting asked why I stick my very big nose in this issue, and the answer remains the same:

I have a 21 year old Son in the 1st. Cavalry in Texas who just might die protecting the Constitution of the United States. To sit here and see the goons in tanks and battle gear moving against 465 children doesn’t sit well with me, I think they have Constitutional Rights too as well as the protection of Due Process which Texas seems to have overlooked in this case.

http://www.flds.ws/2008/06/11/state-gives-up-on-child-abuse-now-claims-flds-is-the-mafia/#comment-1357
__________________________________________________ __
He's also said that the FLDS aren't the ones who are confrontational, he is. They've asked him to remove things that they felt inappropriate, like Walther's address.

This case is something else. Everyone holds steadfast to their beliefs. As you know, I do agree with most (not all) of his views.
I think he's entertaining also.

He has asked people to help the mothers financially, I think this site even talks about adopting one of the families.

I'm sure there will be a lot of criticizm of him on this site.
But he is very passionate in his beliefs.

[walton]

Did ya see this part?


Richter says he also helped design and install scrambling devices for about 50 two-way radios so that outsiders could not eavesdrop on communications. The radios were sent to YFZ.

In the biggest FLDS project in which he participated while on the town payroll, Richter says he helped refurbish and install computerized control equipment on two 500-kilowatt, diesel-powered electrical generators owned by the town's electric utility.

Richter says he was told by his superiors that the generators needed to be refurbished so that they would work with power service at the Texas ranch. Two other Colorado City public employees joined him on the project.

Once the generators were overhauled, Richter says, the utility conducted a fraudulent public auction. Before the auction, he says, he was instructed to disassemble the computer controls to give the appearance that the generators needed substantial work.

The ploy worked.




I wonder if this guy is related to the Donald Richter that writes over at the FLDS site.

I wonder if the man named Don Richter over at the FLDS site is the same Don Richter that was served papers by Wissan I believe?

Do you know evalles?

[evalles]

Originally posted by walton
Did ya see this part?


Richter says he also helped design and install scrambling devices for about 50 two-way radios so that outsiders could not eavesdrop on communications. The radios were sent to YFZ.

In the biggest FLDS project in which he participated while on the town payroll, Richter says he helped refurbish and install computerized control equipment on two 500-kilowatt, diesel-powered electrical generators owned by the town's electric utility.

Richter says he was told by his superiors that the generators needed to be refurbished so that they would work with power service at the Texas ranch. Two other Colorado City public employees joined him on the project.

Once the generators were overhauled, Richter says, the utility conducted a fraudulent public auction. Before the auction, he says, he was instructed to disassemble the computer controls to give the appearance that the generators needed substantial work.

The ploy worked.




I wonder if this guy is related to the Donald Richter that writes over at the FLDS site.

I wonder if the man named Don Richter over at the FLDS site is the same Don Richter that was served papers by Wissan I believe?

Do you know evalles? [/*]

No, but it's certainly possible. Why was he confessing to all this ?

[walton]

Have ya ever had the wind knocked out of you?

Have you ever believed in something all your life and then all of a sudden you see it in a different light and BAM!! The whole world as you knew it has changed.

Have you ever been so scared of something you've seen or heard but when trying to tell someone about your fear, you yourself sound a little touched?

When telling the story, your voice starts to get softer and softer because as each word is spoken you yourself are finally realizing that what you have seen/heard is wrong. Just plain wrong. All of a sudden that little voice inside you is saying NO MORE.

It isn't easy telling the story the first time. But each time it is told it seems to get a little bit easier. You realize that it isn't your fault.


Maybe Robert Richter first spoke out of fear. And then maybe that little voice inside made Robert Richter continue to speak out.

[walton]

Originally posted by evalles


On Bill Medvecky

I keep getting asked why I stick my very big nose in this issue, and the answer remains the same:

I have a 21 year old Son in the 1st. Cavalry in Texas who just might die protecting the Constitution of the United States. To sit here and see the goons in tanks and battle gear moving against 465 children doesn’t sit well with me, I think they have Constitutional Rights too as well as the protection of Due Process which Texas seems to have overlooked in this case.

http://www.flds.ws/2008/06/11/state-gives-up-on-child-abuse-now-claims-flds-is-the-mafia/#comment-1357
__________________________________________________ __
He's also said that the FLDS aren't the ones who are confrontational, he is. They've asked him to remove things that they felt inappropriate, like Walther's address.

This case is something else. Everyone holds steadfast to their beliefs. As you know, I do agree with most (not all) of his views.
I think he's entertaining also.

He has asked people to help the mothers financially, I think this site even talks about adopting one of the families.

I'm sure there will be a lot of criticizm of him on this site.
But he is very passionate in his beliefs. [/*]

I understand being passionate about somethings.

This story is one of them. But I would hope that Bill Medvecky would at least take the time to learn the history of the people he is trying to "help".

I am not going to criticize Bill Medvecky. I just wish he'd see the glass as half full instead of as half empty. jmo

[walton]

Originally posted by Imperfect


Now, if I were to adopt one of the families, that would make me the parent ... right?

And as the parent, I would then be able to exercise my Constitutional Right to raise the children as I see fit ... right?

Sign me up! I'm about to deliver possibilities, opportunities, educational choices, a tricyle, a fishing pole, and a Tickle Me Elmo to a group of deserving children!

:cool: [/*]

Tickle me Elmo. lol

That would be a kick. There was a poster here named Essiemadge and she at one time called Warren horseface.
I don't know why but it cracked me up.

I can just see "horseface" trying to tell people that Tickle Me Elmo is sinful. lol

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by evalles


The human sacrifice thing is a little to far out there for me to buy into.

[/*]

How familiar are you with the history of it in the 19th century Mormon church?