6/2 to ............

[witchy1]

Monday, June 2, are the children going back to the Ranch or are they to continue to be under state supervision?

[witchy1]

http://www.captivefldschildren.org/

[evalles]

I saw that, there are lots. I wanted to hear what the FLDS themselves had to say about what was going on.
If you click on this, you'll find links to numerous other sites.

http://fldsview.blogspot.com/search/label/Kidnapped%20children

This one's interesting too.

http://heartkeepercommonroom.blogspot.com/search/label/FLDS

[lotty]

Originally posted by grammybear
Do we even know why the judge did not sign the orders for the kids to go back home with their parents? I have heard a lot of speculation but nothing concrete. My understanding was that the parents were in agreement with CPS and would sign whatever so they could get their kids back. But I have not heard of any thing else.

If you hear anything please let me know.

jmoo [/*]

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=6176782
FLDS kids coming home?Sunday, June 01, 2008 | 10:35 PM
The judge said the order would have to be signed by all the mothers who sued to get their children back before she would sign off on it. Attorneys argued that would be difficult because they are scattered across the state.

[evalles]

Originally posted by grammybear
Do we even know why the judge did not sign the orders for the kids to go back home with their parents? I have heard a lot of speculation but nothing concrete. My understanding was that the parents were in agreement with CPS and would sign whatever so they could get their kids back. But I have not heard of any thing else.

If you hear anything please let me know.

jmoo [/*]

This also talks a little about what happened at court on Friday.

Texas judge to mull plans for returning polygamous sect's children
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9447243

This thing is driving me batty. I just want some resolution for these kids.

If it is affecting me this much, I can only imagine how it's affecting those involved.

[evalles]

Originally posted by grammybear
Do we even know why the judge did not sign the orders for the kids to go back home with their parents? I have heard a lot of speculation but nothing concrete. My understanding was that the parents were in agreement with CPS and would sign whatever so they could get their kids back. But I have not heard of any thing else.

If you hear anything please let me know.

jmoo [/*]

I read that CPS and FLDS had come to an agreement and the judge shot it down, and proposed a very different plan.
If this is the case, isn't that -- wierd ? Wouldn't the state's attorneys present a plan and the judge would decide to approve it or not ?

IMO, this judge will never be able to make fair decisions in this case.

[evalles]

Saw this on another site.

Breaking News: Texas judge today signed an order allowing more than 440 children seized from a polygamist sect to be returned to their parents.

[evalles]

CNN just said that all 450+ children are going home !!

[evalles]

They can start picking them up at 10 AM.

http://gosanangelo.com/news/2008/jun/02/flds-children-heading-home-today/

[evalles]

Here's the signed order.
I haven't read it yet.

http://web.gosanangelo.com/pdf/flds0602.pdf

[VC2]

what a fiasco.

no one charged, kids removed and now have to be returned.

[evalles]

I thought there were a few underage girls that were determined to have been abused.
Are they going home too ?

Based on the order, it looks like it.

[BorderCollieMom]

How in the world is all that info on the kids & parents/legal gaurdians/etc. going to come up with all of theat information that has to be filled out on that form ?

Does the habitats on the ranch even have a phone in each one ?

I see an even BIGGER mess coming. But, at least, there are things being continued on with....

Texas isnt just dumping them all off at the front gate.

[evalles]

Originally posted by RachelRose
evalles - I thought all those girls were cleared? All were over age, except the one who was a minor but they determined she actually wasn't pregnant? I don't think they had a single girl who was currently pregnant and underage, although they had a couple who had toddlers that they thought possibly had gotten pregnant under 16 years but that was undetermined. [/*]

I must not be up to date on the numbers.
What about the girl that was in the pictures with Jeff's ?
I heard she was in custody.
I also read somewhere that she was actually examined and was a virgin.
I know I read it, but don't remember where, might not have been legit.

[evalles]

Originally posted by RachelRose
BCM - I don't think they have to have a separate individual phone number for each person - just a phone number where that person can be reached. Could be one single phone number, I would think.

I would think the mothers would have all that information off the top of their heads, like we all do. Where they live, their baby's birth date, etc. [/*]

It looked like they all had cell phones

[BorderCollieMom]

I just caught a short conference LIVE on Fox...the people (attorneys?) are saying its going to take a couple of days to get everything together.

I may be way behing on the news....I understood that some of the kids bio's couldnt be determined yet. . and some other unknowns...anyways, thats why I questioned how on earth they would be able to supply all of the info that the court is asking for.

[witchy1]

I just read the signed order of the court and it really isn't that hard of an order to follow. Seems like everyone will benefit from the collective agreement of all adults involved, meaning parents and CPS. That way CPS are allowed in to monitor and see first hand how the children are being raised. Also, I just love the part where no child can be sent away to live somewhere other than where they are stated to live in the address listed for them. Nice touch, IMO

[evalles]

Originally posted by witchy1
I just read the signed order of the court and it really isn't that hard of an order to follow. Seems like everyone will benefit from the collective agreement of all adults involved, meaning parents and CPS. That way CPS are allowed in to monitor and see first hand how the children are being raised. Also, I just love the part where no child can be sent away to live somewhere other than where they are stated to live in the address listed for them. Nice touch, IMO [/*]


That won't be permanent.

[Carol25]

So, from what I understand, the adults are going around and picking up children they claim are theirs and moving to houses the they claim they have rented around Amarillo or back to the ranch. They can go where ever they want up to 100 miles from their homes, where ever they are without permission from the court and the have to promise to go to parenting classes. And they have to be open to CPS visiting them at the addresses they have provided.

The court is depending on the truthfulness of the FLDS members for picking up their own childrn, providing the correct address and not fleeing. From the cult who is known for Lying for the Lord.
Amazing.

[evalles]

Originally posted by Carol25
So, from what I understand, the adults are going around and picking up children they claim are theirs and moving to houses the they claim they have rented around Amarillo or back to the ranch. They can go where ever they want up to 100 miles from their homes, where ever they are without permission from the court and the have to promise to go to parenting classes. And they have to be open to CPS visiting them at the addresses they have provided.

The court is depending on the truthfulness of the FLDS members for picking up their own childrn, providing the correct address and not fleeing. From the cult who is known for Lying for the Lord.
Amazing. [/*]

Like the state lied to justify taking all the children.
The state isn't known for their trustworthiness either.

They haven't been charged with anything, why shouldn't they be able to go where they want ?

It sounds like you think they should be treated as criminals.
If they violate the order, they'll be charged.
You know what ?
These children don't belong to the state. They have parents.
What about love ? Do you think that CPS loves these kids ?

You want an awful lot of restrictions placed on the them, even after the higher courts said they shouldn't have been removed in the first place.
Then, the parties responsible for the illegal removal should still be in charge ?

[spirit07]

Originally posted by Carol25

The court is depending on the truthfulness of the FLDS members for picking up their own childrn, providing the correct address and not fleeing. From the cult who is known for Lying for the Lord.
Amazing. [/*]

I think the FLDS members will have a much harder time now if they want to lie about where any of the children are or who they live with. Although I'm not sure how an address is quite as useful if it is just 'the ranch'. Unfortunately, all this took place before they could determine through DNA what children really belong to what parents. From the brief amount I have read this morning, it sounds as if the rest of the investigation is still underway and the criminal investigation is taking place on it's own as well as continued CPS involvement.

[witchy1]

Originally posted by spirit07


I think the FLDS members will have a much harder time now if they want to lie about where any of the children are or who they live with. Although I'm not sure how an address is quite as useful if it is just 'the ranch'. Unfortunately, all this took place before they could determine through DNA what children really belong to what parents. From the brief amount I have read this morning, it sounds as if the rest of the investigation is still underway and the criminal investigation is taking place on it's own as well as continued CPS involvement. [/*]

ITA it will be harder for them to lie and hide children or reassign them, as the FLDS calls it.
Also, IIRC, I heard/ read that the resident address would have to apply to any building, home, shed, etc. where they live.

[evalles]

In spite of all the restrictions, all that's important is that they're going home.

[evalles]

Flora Jessop mentioned the other evening that she is concerned that what the children face going back is far worse than what they've already been through. She expressed concern that many of the children wouldn't be able to withstand what would occur.


***** Was that the interview she did in the budweiser t-shirt ?

Or the one where she was flipping her hair while lighting a cigarette ?

She left 20 years ago, I don't know how she became such an "expert" on Warren Jeffs and the Texas ranch, considering she's never been there.

[witchy1]

It will be an eye-opening revelation to these parents when they are taking the parenting classes that there are different ways than what the church taught them. What I hope is they seize onto this and determine that they were taught wrongly by the most perfect of men, their Prophet, Warren Jeffs.

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by evalles



***** Was that the interview she did in the budweiser t-shirt ?

Or the one where she was flipping her hair while lighting a cigarette ?

[/*]

How is her veracity elevated or denigrated based on what clothing she was wearing?

Would she be more truthful if she didn't flip her hair? Would there be more truth to her comments if she wasn't smoking?

I honestly don't get what possible difference ANY of those things could be when it comes to making a determination on whether or not her concerns are valid. Since you do, I surely wish you would enlighten the rest of us about it.

[Roux]

Originally posted by RachelRose
Imperfect, I have a really hard time thinking any of those children got a positive view of the world outside.

Their fears have been confirmed in spades - that the outside world is a foreboding, terrifying place with no soul or heart.

Ripping little children from their mother's arms - I would think these kids will be MORE afraid than they were before of the rest of us - and none will have gotten enough of a "taste" to want to have anything whatsoever to do with anyone outside the ranch ever again. Only in their nightmares. [/*]

You have to got to be kidding. Do you think the people, the group homes that have been taking care of these children are foreboding, terrifying places with no soul or heart? How about the huge outpouring of linens, furniture, clothes, etc. that the communities have donated? We've had several requests in our church bulletin and people have been exceedingly generous. How about the individuals who have tried to understand and help these children? Neither you nor evalles can convince me that the people who have been taking care of these children for the past several weeks have been mean, cruel, or uncaring. In fact, they've gone out of their way to accommodate the children's beliefs and trepidations. Oh, excuse me, with the exception of not letting them have uncle warren's picture and tapes.

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by witchy1
It will be an eye-opening revelation to these parents when they are taking the parenting classes that there are different ways than what the church taught them. What I hope is they seize onto this and determine that they were taught wrongly by the most perfect of men, their Prophet, Warren Jeffs. [/*]

You are far more hopeful about it than I am.

They have been raised from birth to view the outside world as akin to hell populated with demons. They have pounded into them - 24/7 that any beliefs and/or practices OTHER than what is approved of by their prophet are from Satan.

Their choice tomorrow is the same as their choice today. Believe & follow the FLDS & you will be rewarded in heaven. Anything else & you are going straight to h#ll. No ifs, ands or buts about it.

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by RachelRose
Imperfect, I have a really hard time thinking any of those children got a positive view of the world outside.

Their fears have been confirmed in spades - that the outside world is a foreboding, terrifying place with no soul or heart.

Ripping little children from their mother's arms - I would think these kids will be MORE afraid than they were before of the rest of us - and none will have gotten enough of a "taste" to want to have anything whatsoever to do with anyone outside the ranch ever again. Only in their nightmares. [/*]


I don't know what view the children, especially the older children, got of the outside world - but I DO KNOW that in a society such as the FLDS you can bet your bottom dollar that once they are back in the fold there will be adults who will make it their top priority - EVERY DAY - to make sure that their memories are negative.

That is the way ALL fundamentalist, restrictive cults operate. On fear. On instilling paranoia. On making sure, every minute of the day & night that the followers get & stay obedient. It isn't limited to the FLDS & it has been documented for many, many years by people who have made it their life's work to study & understand the dynamics of religious cults & how they keep members tied to them.

It is not a benevolent society full of loving adults living a simple life & sheltering children from the negative influences of 21st century life in America. It is restrictive & controlling & punishing to those who do not toe the line.

When the Manson girls all showed up with the same shaved heads & spouting the same rhetoric whether they were inside or outside of jail, people had few problems comprehending just how controlled they were. And that is exactly what I remember when I see the FLDS women in identical clothing, nearly identical hairstyles, spouting identical lies.

JMO

[evalles]

Originally posted by Mimi428


How is her veracity elevated or denigrated based on what clothing she was wearing?

Would she be more truthful if she didn't flip her hair? Would there be more truth to her comments if she wasn't smoking?

I honestly don't get what possible difference ANY of those things could be when it comes to making a determination on whether or not her concerns are valid. Since you do, I surely wish you would enlighten the rest of us about it. [/*]

I think it's tacky. If she's like that on TV, it's probably 10 times worse when she's not.

Come on, would you do a TV interview in a Budweiser shirt, especially when you're supposed to be a spokesperson for abused kids ?

[Roux]

Originally posted by RachelRose


Roux, I don't know about the foster care providers. They can be the nicest people on the planet, or in fact, heartless. My guess is most of these care providers were the cream of the crop.

That doesn't make up for being snatched from a crying mother and separated from family. It doesn't make up for it, no matter how nice the home was.

It's a terrifying ordeal for a child to go through. You can't make up for that by smiling and being nice to them and giving them sheets. I see severe psychiatric and adjustment problems coming for these kids - similar to kids who have been through a war trauma. [/*]

Well, I'm not a professional, only a mother and grandmother and as previously posted I have NEVER had any experience whatsoever with CPS. I do believe, however, that children are resilient. This has not been an extended separation, mothers were allowed to visit and call...I would think that they would have been encouraging the children and not making it worse by crying in front of them. This is no where near the equivalent of war trauma. If there's any severe psychiatric problems, IMO, it's the boys that I have seen who were rejected by their FLDS families.

[walton]

Tacky? lol

I guess I choose tacky if it means a person is trying their hardest at trying to protect people over a preacher man in a suit chanting "Keep Sweet" and hightailing it to the third floor bed. jmo

If Flora calms her nerves by having a smoke so be it. Bet she hasn't held any babies down to keep them quiet.

If Flora is wearing a Budweiser shirt or a Miller light hat it doesn't change the message she has been trying to send out. Flora is just Flora. Love her or hate her she has done an awful lot to bring awareness to a culture left behind.


The chanting Preacher man the "Prophet" isn't dressed up to Church code either. Orange jumpsuit and a pair of flip flops but he is still preaching and they are still listening.

I will take Flora any ol' day. jmo

[Haz]

Originally posted by Mimi428



I don't know what view the children, especially the older children, got of the outside world - but I DO KNOW that in a society such as the FLDS you can bet your bottom dollar that once they are back in the fold there will be adults who will make it their top priority - EVERY DAY - to make sure that their memories are negative.

That is the way ALL fundamentalist, restrictive cults operate. On fear. On instilling paranoia. On making sure, every minute of the day & night that the followers get & stay obedient. It isn't limited to the FLDS & it has been documented for many, many years by people who have made it their life's work to study & understand the dynamics of religious cults & how they keep members tied to them.

It is not a benevolent society full of loving adults living a simple life & sheltering children from the negative influences of 21st century life in America. It is restrictive & controlling & punishing to those who do not toe the line.

When the Manson girls all showed up with the same shaved heads & spouting the same rhetoric whether they were inside or outside of jail, people had few problems comprehending just how controlled they were. And that is exactly what I remember when I see the FLDS women in identical clothing, nearly identical hairstyles, spouting identical lies.

JMO [/*]

Great post Mimi...Most intelligent people can see this to be true.

To those spouting about the trauma to the children--If there is trauma you can blame it on the sect. If they weren't such sick puppies to begin with none of this would have happened in the first place. Put the blame where it belongs. IMO

[Haz]

I'll probably get in trouble for saying this but these posters who constantly condone the actions of this sect make me barf. They believe every word from the sickies but nothing said by anyone else. Not even the ones who have lived it. Not even the ones who have been thrown out-both men and boys. Not anyone but the head pervert and his followers.

I don't post much because I feel very strongly about child abuse of any kind. I am a victim of sexual abuse from my brother and my parents let it go-made him move out of the house but did nothing else- and I have to live with the memories of it to this day. I kept it from everyone else until he and my mother died one month apart. Then I told the rest of the family. They were not surprised because he was the "only son". Us 4 girls were never as important as he was. I hope he is rotting in h*ll.

[walton]

Originally posted by Imperfect


Wow. More disrespect?

And for a person who knows more than you or I will ever know about what really happens behind the closed society of the FLDS? For a woman who's reaching out to help others in similar circumstances?

Over a t-shirt? Wow.

I honestly don't know what I'd wear - on TV or anyplace else - if I was Flora Jessop. I doubt I'd be much concerned about it, to tell you the truth.

As I've said, Evalles, you're certainly entitled to your opinion.

:rose: ... for Flora [/*]

Flora has had a tough life some of it brought on by her own doing. But I can honestly say I don't know how I or anyone I know would act if they were to be molested by her father and a future of more of the same. Sometimes a person can never look forward if they are always having to look back. jmo

Sometimes a person can never ever right a wrong but I gotta give those credit for trying.

Polygamy is rarely ever about consenting adults. It might start out that way but when they start bringing children into the picture the party should be over.

Religion should never ever be the reason or excuse to practice child abuse.

[evalles]

Originally posted by Haz
I'll probably get in trouble for saying this but these posters who constantly condone the actions of this sect make me barf. They believe every word from the sickies but nothing said by anyone else. Not even the ones who have lived it. Not even the ones who have been thrown out-both men and boys. Not anyone but the head pervert and his followers.

I don't post much because I feel very strongly about child abuse of any kind. I am a victim of sexual abuse from my brother and my parents let it go-made him move out of the house but did nothing else- and I have to live with the memories of it to this day. I kept it from everyone else until he and my mother died one month apart. Then I told the rest of the family. They were not surprised because he was the "only son". Us 4 girls were never as important as he was. I hope he is rotting in h*ll. [/*]


As for your brother, I hope he is too.

[spirit07]

Originally posted by witchy1


ITA it will be harder for them to lie and hide children or reassign them, as the FLDS calls it.
Also, IIRC, I heard/ read that the resident address would have to apply to any building, home, shed, etc. where they live. [/*]

I'm hoping they have a schematic of the compound living quarters at least and the rooms they occupy have to be marked - many/most/all of them share living rooms, kitchens, laundry (not sure about bathrooms).

[Haz]

Originally posted by evalles



As for your brother, I hope he is too. [/*]

Thank You...I was 14 then-I'm 66 now. It is something a person never forgets. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy-if I had an enemy. It affects every part of your life in one way or another.

[evalles]

Originally posted by Haz


Thank You...I was 14 then-I'm 66 now. It is something a person never forgets. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy-if I had an enemy. It affects every part of your life in one way or another. [/*]


My half brother molested my sister when she was small, she's had lifelong mental issues. He went on to molest 4 out of 7 of his own children. Sick #!#!. I probably won't go to his funeral, I'm afraid I'll start cheering. Hopefully he'll have a chance to meet your brother.

Sorry to say this, but your parents way of handling it had to have made the suffering 10 times worse.
I think it would be easier to heal with family support, which is why incest is so damaging.

[witchy1]

have you read this yet?
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/06/02/texas.polygamists/index.html

[walton]

Originally posted by witchy1
have you read this yet?
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/06/02/texas.polygamists/index.html [/*]

from this link: Also on Monday British Columbia's attorney general ordered an investigation into alleged misconduct at a Canadian community believed to be a polygamous sect with possible connections to FLDS.

Attorney General Wally Opal called for a special prosecutor to look into allegations of misconduct in the community in Bountiful, British Columbia.



Thanks for the link witchy.

[witchy1]

yeah to me this is good news from the Canadian gov., but what about ours in the other states that allow these people to continue?

[walton]

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9456349

Hours after signing an order releasing FLDS children from state custody, 51st District Judge Barbara Walther arrived at the Schleicher County Courthouse in Eldorado to swear in a grand jury that may be considering indictments related to the polygamous sect.

[witchy1]

Wow! This is amazing stuff. To able to indict someone you have to have a lot of info, don't you? I am so glad that these people be monitored, any time of day, almost, between 8 am & 8 pm IITC.

[walton]

That is good news. People have been watching and will continue to watch.

I've always gotten the feeling from the Canadians that I've known is that they are kinda laid back. They don't get all wishy washy with the little stuff but mean darn well when they say they are going to do something. They do it.


Do you agree aye? :)




I mean this in the nicest way.

[witchy1]

Yes. And to you and Lynda thanks for joining me, this is the first sticky I've ever had, and didn't even ask CW to do it. I may make the club soon.
Thanks to both of you for all the info you are always posting.

[walton]

I just saw your location. :D

You do know what I mean.

[witchy1]

Originally posted by walton
I just saw your location. :D

You do know what I mean. [/*]

Me and you both:)

[Haz]

Thanks all who responded to my post. Many old time posters know about it because one other time this type of issue came up and I felt compelled to share my experience. They also know I don't post much on these types of issues.

You are right eva-the families way of handling it can make a world of difference. If it is condones, ignored, etc. it is very harmful IMO. Also counseling I think would have helped but back in 1956 it was swept under the rug and never talked about. My step-father (only father I knew) tried the best he could to make it up to me. We became very close. He died before my mom so he never knew I finally talked about it. Of the 3 I miss him the most. He was so kind to me and my kids.

I hope somehow the kids get whatever kind of help they need. Some may need none and others alot. I was glad to hear they will be monitored. At least that way they have a chance...IMO

[witchy1]

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/0527081flds1.html

I still don't get how this could go unpunished. It's just wrong beyond wrong.

[evalles]

Originally posted by Haz
Thanks all who responded to my post. Many old time posters know about it because one other time this type of issue came up and I felt compelled to share my experience. They also know I don't post much on these types of issues.

You are right eva-the families way of handling it can make a world of difference. If it is condones, ignored, etc. it is very harmful IMO. Also counseling I think would have helped but back in 1956 it was swept under the rug and never talked about. My step-father (only father I knew) tried the best he could to make it up to me. We became very close. He died before my mom so he never knew I finally talked about it. Of the 3 I miss him the most. He was so kind to me and my kids.

I hope somehow the kids get whatever kind of help they need. Some may need none and others alot. I was glad to hear they will be monitored. At least that way they have a chance...IMO [/*]

Even though you mentioned how long ago it was, I didn't think about the differences in family dynamics between then and now.
My half brother molested my sister in the early 60's and he was sent to live with his father.

[witchy1]

My DH hasn't followed this case much, tho I have for years, but this afternoon we were watching the news and he heard "Parenting classes" and spit out his drink:lol:

[Carol25]

Per Fox News

The FLDS ha agreed not to marry underage girls any more!

Doesn't that beat all! They have refused to admit it. Now they promise not to do it anymore! :shrug:

[Carol25]

Originally posted by Imperfect


Okay, let's get a show of hands.

Who believes them? [/*]

:biggrin:

[Carol25]

Originally posted by Imperfect


Thank you, Judge Walther. :)

[/*]
Most of those indictments are probably against Warren, since they had his DNA, wouldn't you think? That's probably what prompted their message. Where's Ol' Willie, now?

[Haz]

Don't apologize for stepping away Lynda. I had to too. Just came back to read up and then on to watch The NHL Stanley Cup Finals. (Thank goodness I have many other interests to help keep me sane.)

Looks like some good news coming now. Thank God. Will read the links later.

Night all.

[spirit07]

Originally posted by Carol25
Per Fox News

The FLDS ha agreed not to marry underage girls any more!

Doesn't that beat all! They have refused to admit it. Now they promise not to do it anymore! :shrug: [/*]

Another weird aside is that Jeffs must have hurried up and married several or at least a couple of 11-12 year olds while he was on the run and just before being caught (actually evalies pointed this out when I posted the smokinggun link/pics).

[witchy1]

so your point is......

[witchy1]

http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/2007/10/carolyn-jessops-escape.htm

[spirit07]

Originally posted by witchy1
so your point is...... [/*]

Mine? If so, I said it was 'another weird aside', meaning related to marrying very young girls. I'm not sure what it means or if it has a meaning in relation to the promise to not marry them now - maybe.

[witchy1]

http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/2007/10/carolyn-jessops-escape.htm

[witchy1]

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/21233/lost-boys-flds

[spirit07]

witchy....

from your last link

Jensen said the boys in the FLDS, after graduating from home school, win favors from “the priesthood” by going on two-year “work missions” away from their families. They work for free for the church but are still vulnerable to expulsion if they slip up.

With the boys gone, the girls, fresh from graduating, are married off to “these old grizzly men,” Jensen said.

******

Graduating? Does that mean like the 8th grade?

[witchy1]

http://forums.theledger.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4521043365/m/7151028617

[witchy1]

Are you watching NG?

[evalles]

While Flora Jessop may be an "escapee", she was also a stripper and drug addict.
She was never at the Texas compound and left the FLDS 20 years ago, yet it seems like she's almost reached sainthood among the anti FLDS members.
I just don't see why she is revered as such an authority.

[warhorse46]

Here is a copy of the warrant for the dna swabs for Warren Jeffs.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2008/images/05/30/warren.jeffs.search.warrant.pdf

[witchy1]

I totally disagree with you on that.

[warhorse46]

Originally posted by evalles
While Flora Jessop may be an "escapee", she was also a stripper and drug addict.
She was never at the Texas compound and left the FLDS 20 years ago, yet it seems like she's almost reached sainthood among the anti FLDS members.
I just don't see why she is revered as such an authority. [/*]


Stripping is a perfectly legal means of employment so I have no problem with that. Maybe we believe her because she lived the life, she knows first hand what goes on behind the closed doors of the FLDS. And her version of their lifestyle matches perfectly to others who have broken off from the religion.

[witchy1]

Originally posted by evalles
While Flora Jessop may be an "escapee", she was also a stripper and drug addict.
She was never at the Texas compound and left the FLDS 20 years ago, yet it seems like she's almost reached sainthood among the anti FLDS members.
I just don't see why she is revered as such an authority. [/*]
So? What is your point? She was never at the Texas compound? she grew upwith the teachings of Warren Jeffs

[witchy1]

Originally posted by warhorse46



Where is your evidence to support your claim she was a stripper & drug addict? BTW stripping is a perfectly legal means of employment so I have no problem with that. Maybe we believe her because she lived the life, she knows first hand what goes on behind the closed doors of the FLDS. And her version of their lifestyle matches perfectly to others who have broken off from the religion. [/*]

Thank You!

[warhorse46]

Originally posted by witchy1


Thank You! [/*]


I edited my post, she admits to using cocaine & stripping when she was 17 just out of the compound. I found this 2004 interview very interesting.
http://www.womanthouartgod.com/flora.php

[witchy1]

It is my understanding that these boys were molested.

[evalles]

Originally posted by witchy1

So? What is your point? She was never at the Texas compound? she grew upwith the teachings of Warren Jeffs [/*]

She did not grow up with the teachings of Warren Jeffs.

[FurthurBB]

Originally posted by Haz


Great post Mimi...Most intelligent people can see this to be true.

To those spouting about the trauma to the children--If there is trauma you can blame it on the sect. If they weren't such sick puppies to begin with none of this would have happened in the first place. Put the blame where it belongs. IMO [/*]

Just because you want to believe that taking children away from their parents to be 'safe' isn't traumatizing does not make you right and since most people who know what they are talking about... I.E. child psychologist ... say that it is, I doubt your assertions about intelligent people is anywhere near the truth. IMO

[evalles]

Originally posted by warhorse46



I edited my post, she admits to using cocaine & stripping when she was 17 just out of the compound. I found this 2004 interview very interesting.
http://www.womanthouartgod.com/flora.php [/*]

From this interview :
The sexual abuse is almost an aside. As terrible as that is, it’s almost an aside because when your father is sexually abusing you, you get elevated in status in the family.

If this is rampant, why wasn't there evidence that more girls at the TX compound were sexually abused ?

Isn't it possible that Flora's father was just incredibly screwed up ?

[FurthurBB]

Originally posted by evalles



My half brother molested my sister when she was small, she's had lifelong mental issues. He went on to molest 4 out of 7 of his own children. Sick #!#!. I probably won't go to his funeral, I'm afraid I'll start cheering. Hopefully he'll have a chance to meet your brother.

Sorry to say this, but your parents way of handling it had to have made the suffering 10 times worse.
I think it would be easier to heal with family support, which is why incest is so damaging. [/*]

Absolutely, sexual abuse is so damaging. It is ashame that most child molesters do less time in prison than petty drug offenders. IMO

[FurthurBB]

Originally posted by Lyndawitha"Y


It is pictures like that, and the testimonies of survivors along with the forced testimony of sect members that will bring felony charges upon this sect..What does boggle my mind is why not go tis route before now?....YES, save the kids...but why not investigate feloneous behaviors too..No One can tell me the auhorities didn't have evidence enough to seek a Grand Jury Investigation before now!

LMS:punch: [/*]

I agree, and this was always the way to go anyway. Well, even the people speaking from emotions I do not think would say that the state is the most efficient entity. Though, the state is better than the federal government because at least you have access to your state government. IMO

[Details]

So much the usual story for abuse victims. They're raped and abused as children or older, hurt at very deep levels, made to feel worthless, do whatever they can to function, survive, and when they go after their abuser - the abuser stands there, seeming like a pillar of society, calm and collected, while the victim is shattered and disfunctional, and so easy to try to discredit - and some who judge on appearances decide who to believe. Happened with the pedophile priests, and here we are again.

She endured and survived. She overcame her trauma, recovered, and made a new life helping others like her. When you are undereducated, raped, and abandoned - maybe then you know the situation enough to judge someone based on the t-shirt they wear. I'm more interested in the facts than how pretty the dress someone wears.


Sexual abuse doesn't leave easy to find marks or broken bones most of the time. So easy to deny. Convince the child to lie for you or else, and it can never be found out.

[FurthurBB]

Originally posted by evalles


From this interview :
The sexual abuse is almost an aside. As terrible as that is, it’s almost an aside because when your father is sexually abusing you, you get elevated in status in the family.

If this is rampant, why wasn't there evidence that more girls at the TX compound were sexually abused ?

Isn't it possible that Flora's father was just incredibly screwed up ? [/*]

It is hard to say because if you get that many families together from regular society I am pretty sure some would be pretty screwed up. IMO

[FurthurBB]

Originally posted by Details
So much the usual story for abuse victims. They're raped and abused as children or older, hurt at very deep levels, made to feel worthless, do whatever they can to function, survive, and when they go after their abuser - the abuser stands there, seeming like a pillar of society, calm and collected, while the victim is shattered and disfunctional, and so easy to try to discredit - and some who judge on appearances decide who to believe. Happened with the pedophile priests, and here we are again.

She endured and survived. She overcame her trauma, recovered, and made a new life helping others like her. When you are undereducated, raped, and abandoned - maybe then you know the situation enough to judge someone based on the t-shirt they wear. I'm more interested in the facts than how pretty the dress someone wears. [/*]

I understand what you are saying, but, for everyone there is a time when you have to stop blaming who you are on what happened to you. Who had a normal life? What pretty girl was not sexually abused by someone? Maybe not a family member, but, it is unlikely for any girl to live her entire life without some kind of sexual asault taking place, and being attractive makes it all the worse. We survive and help others and don't strip or take drugs and become productive members of society. IMO

[witchy1]

Originally posted by evalles


She did not grow up with the teachings of Warren Jeffs. [/*]
Maybe not Warren but his father who's teachings Warren has expounded on.

[Details]

Originally posted by FurthurBB
I understand what you are saying, but, for everyone there is a time when you have to stop blaming who you are on what happened to you. Who had a normal life? What pretty girl was not sexually abused by someone? Maybe not a family member, but, it is unlikely for any girl to live her entire life without some kind of sexual asault taking place, and being attractive makes it all the worse. We survive and help others and don't strip or take drugs and become productive members of society. IMO [/*]Are you kidding me? Lots of people make it without sexual abuse - I did. Some stranger and an isolated incident is a huge difference from abuse from your parents. Being raised by a cult as pedophile fodder with little education and no training for anything but raising more pedophile fodder is one more huge step different from what most, nearly all, experience in their childhood.


She had a time - not unlike so many other lost boys - when she did drugs. She stopped. She stripped to pay the bills - hardly the first person to resort to that - one of the best options when you have no education, no skills and no contacts.


You really think you'd have no ill effects if you were raised as she was? You think you'd be able to go out into the world you'd been taught was entirely evil and would use you for sex, having been used for sex by your parents, and just instantly become normal, no trouble, no mistakes? People with good parents make those mistakes, someone who has been entirely isolated - of course they're going to have trouble.

[evalles]

Originally posted by FurthurBB


Absolutely, sexual abuse is so damaging. It is ashame that most child molesters do less time in prison than petty drug offenders. IMO [/*]


The piece of crap spent the night in jail. Then probation. What really makes me angry is that men get less time for molesting their own children. When it's perpetrated by a family member, I think it has to be so much worse. If it's a stranger, the child has the support of both parents who tell him/her that it wasn't their fault and that the person did a horrible thing. When it's their father that violated them, their whole family is usually destroyed.
You can imagine that even though the mother tries to help her child through it, she's just learned her spouse has hurt their child.
She loses her husband, she feels guilty because she didn't know, if he was the breadwinner, they lose their financial support. All this takes attention away from the child. daddy's in jail and sometimes the child feels it's their fault. I went through all this with my sister-in-law (although daddy wasn't in jail long) and my niece and nephews. That was 15 years ago and the only time I talked to my mother's son was at her funeral.
As for his victims, I recently learned that the youngest is in prison for child molestation, shortly after it happened I heard that my other two nephews had messed with their sister. My niece was very permiscuos for awhile. He destroyed his entire family.
God forgive me, but I hate this man. I take it as a compliment that he doesn't like me either.
I'm fine with the death penalty for convicted child molestors.

Sorry for rambling, but I'd love for this man to drop dead.

[evalles]

Originally posted by Imperfect


It's coming. [/*]

Then why'd they let them go home.
They did physical exams, right ??

[witchy1]

These children, and included in that, the young adults that are/ were raised in this community need to be introduced to the real sociality so that they may awaken to the fact that they have ALL been mislead. These poor souls only have their Mormon teachings, they don't comprehend that there are other ways.
JMO

[evalles]

Originally posted by witchy1
These children, and included in that, the young adults that are/ were raised in this community need to be introduced to the real sociality so that they may awaken to the fact that they have ALL been mislead. These poor souls only have their Mormon teachings, they don't comprehend that there are other ways.
JMO [/*]

I live in real society, and I think it's totally screwed up.
There are babies being raped and killed, kids killing their parents and foster parents locking kids in cages.
Aside from the polygamy and alleged marriages of underage girls,
their children seem far safer than those in real society.

[evalles]

Originally posted by Imperfect


Because the appellate court sent them home before CPS and the trial court had the time or resources to sort out all the evidence. At least that's my understanding of the situation.

I don't know what sort of physical exams they did on the children, do you? I haven't read any specifics about what tests were done on the children. If you have, I'd like to see that information if you can point me to it.

If you're referring to the DNA tests, the results aren't back yet. [/*]

They talked about the physical exams the first week. It's been two months. CPS workers testified in multiple cases the children weren't abused. GO Sanangelo has a link to all the articles.
If they found one child that was sexually abused, it stands to reason that if there were more, they'd be keeping them in custody.

[spirit07]

Originally posted by evalles


She did not grow up with the teachings of Warren Jeffs. [/*]

While Jeffs was not the grandpoopa, he was preaching - there's a home video of him on the 48 hrs site. Everything that has been written also say Warren is worse than his father - so what is your argument?

[warhorse46]

Originally posted by grammybear


If I had lived in this sect I may have become a drug addict to. But none of that has to do with the work she is doing for these children.

Why is it some people have see a lot of good out of a bad situation and have faith that things can be better, when on the other hand some people only see negative in a person or persons who not only have survived a horrible situation but go on to help others?

jmoo [/*]



According to reports, drug & alcohol abuse & sexual promiscuity are common among the ones who escape from the compounds.
<<<The "two Fawns" were smart, Joni Holm said, but had elementary school education levels. They had bizarre mannerisms and wouldn't look people in the eye. They would sometimes jump off elevators because "they were taught they could never be alone with a man," she said.

Fawn Holm began using drugs and alcohol, and Broadbent dabbled in drinking, Joni Holm said.

It's a common phenomenon, Larson said. "When you're held down and can't have any freedoms, they go the opposite way when they get out: drinking, drugs, sex. They're going to hell anyway; they just jump headfirst in.">>>
Much more to the article here
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/16/polygamy.escapes/index.html

[warhorse46]

Originally posted by evalles


From this interview :
The sexual abuse is almost an aside. As terrible as that is, it’s almost an aside because when your father is sexually abusing you, you get elevated in status in the family.

If this is rampant, why wasn't there evidence that more girls at the TX compound were sexually abused ?

Isn't it possible that Flora's father was just incredibly screwed up ? [/*]


Yep I would say Flora`s father was incredibly screwed up, as are the majority of the elder males of the compounds. As far as that goes the females of the compounds are screwed up too since they participate in the child abuse.
We have not seen the evidence that has been obtained so far so we cannot say how many were sexually abuse or abused in other ways.

[Haz]

Okay, the game is over and I had to come back and read.

A couple of issues I've read about I do have knowledge about. I was abused at 14. I graduated at 18. I married just short of my 20th birthday. I married an alcoholic 11 yrs older than me that I had known since I was about 12. I loved him dearly. I thought I could change him but............. I was about 35 before I took my first drink. I had been married to him for 15 yrs. To make a long story short as possible, when my marriage ended for many reasons I did take to drinking.

When people say an abused person shows signs they are right. The drinking, promiscuous behaviour, etc are normal-IMO. Everything you never did before is open for discovery. I know it happened to me. I basically went wild. I loved being married, secure, providing for my husband and sons but when that fell apart so did I. I went off the deep end. I had never been to bars, drank, partied, etc. With the exception of my brothers abuse I was a virgin at marriage. All of a sudden I became promiscuous. Thankfully it didn't last too long but long enough to make me realize it was wrong.

Having been there I would NEVER judge someones clothing, attitude, opinions, behavior, etc. I do believe until you have walked a mile in that persons shoes you are not one to judge.

But judge on if you wish. Hopefully your life has been better than ours. Until you live a life of hell on earth you will never understand.

[walton]

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_9462175

For nearly 10 years, the FLDS withstood government pressure and refused to make any public concession on its marriage practices. That changed Monday when the polygamous sect released a four-paragraph statement vowing to abide by marriage age laws in all states. Spokesman Willie Jessop read the declaration, saying it had been issued by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Asked who authorized it, Jessop said, "Joseph Smith." He also said he was unaware if FLDS leader Warren S. Jeffs had any hand in crafting the statement. Here is the statement:





something isn't right.

[walton]

Originally posted by evalles


She did not grow up with the teachings of Warren Jeffs. [/*]

It didn't start with Warren.

[walton]

Originally posted by FurthurBB


I understand what you are saying, but, for everyone there is a time when you have to stop blaming who you are on what happened to you. Who had a normal life? What pretty girl was not sexually abused by someone? Maybe not a family member, but, it is unlikely for any girl to live her entire life without some kind of sexual asault taking place, and being attractive makes it all the worse. We survive and help others and don't strip or take drugs and become productive members of society. IMO [/*]



Wow.

Are there survival handbooks issued out? This is how you must behave if you are a survivor 101.

She didn't get the same copy as you. Many don't. I'd say you are one of the lucky ones.

Actually maybe Flora is luckier than you. She doesn't expect people to behave a certain way. She knows that what each person does is their own way of dealing with their "own pain".

She did what she needed to do in order to survive and has gone past that point. She has tried endlessly to stop the victim list from growing.

:rose: For Flora and :rose: for you. Hopefully one day you will see past your own pain

[walton]

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/jun/03/daughter-of-jeffs-in-custody-for-now/


A 16-year-old daughter of Warren Jeffs was exempted from the order releasing polygamist sect children after her attorney argued in court filings that she may be a mother and has been identified as a "victim of sexual abuse."

The girl is a child of Annette and Warren Jeffs, the imprisoned leader of the FLDS who lived for a time on the ranch. She remains in state custody until attorneys for her, for her mother and for the state can reach an agreement on additional restrictions, said Natalie Malonis, a Flower Mound attorney representing her.


http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_3804592

Some followers play the tapes all day long, listening as a droning Jeffs describes a woman's duty to be submissive, "Negro" devilishness and the right of God's anointed leader to "rule in all areas of life." Jeffs drove home the first point during a home economics class taught by his first wife, Annette. Jeffs ordered male students to join female classmates in the meeting hall. Jeffs grabbed his wife's long braid and twisted it, sending her to her knees. A man has a duty, he said, to be a leader. And a wife needs to be submissive, no questions asked.

[evalles]

Originally posted by warhorse46



Yep I would say Flora`s father was incredibly screwed up, as are the majority of the elder males of the compounds. As far as that goes the females of the compounds are screwed up too since they participate in the child abuse.
We have not seen the evidence that has been obtained so far so we cannot say how many were sexually abuse or abused in other ways. [/*]

But it's still pure speculation

[Roux]

Originally posted by walton
http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_9462175

For nearly 10 years, the FLDS withstood government pressure and refused to make any public concession on its marriage practices. That changed Monday when the polygamous sect released a four-paragraph statement vowing to abide by marriage age laws in all states. Spokesman Willie Jessop read the declaration, saying it had been issued by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Asked who authorized it, Jessop said, "Joseph Smith." He also said he was unaware if FLDS leader Warren S. Jeffs had any hand in crafting the statement. Here is the statement:





something isn't right. [/*]

IMO the key phrase of the statement is "in the future"
despite their claims to the contrary, wouldn't that imply they have done it in the past?

[warhorse46]

Originally posted by evalles


But it's still pure speculation [/*]


Not speculation when so much testimony is available from others who have experienced first hand of the criminal lifestyle of the sect.
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695270674,00.html

Now some more evidence is coming out.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/06/02/texas.polygamists/index.html?eref=rss_crime

<<<The exception involved a 16-year-old girl who the girl's attorney said was an "identified victim of sexual abuse."

The attorney said the child's release might cause her to come into contact with her alleged sexual abuser.

"The court has now signed an order applying to all children," the motion said. "But there are no restrictions or provisions which take into account the immediate risk of her alleged perpetrator having access."

The logistics of retrieving the remaining children may not be so simple, though, since some parents have children at different facilities across the state.

Under the judge's order, the Department of Family and Protective Services will still have the right to visit and interview the children.

These unannounced visits could entail medical, psychological and psychiatric examinations, and the parents must not intervene. Watch what the judge's order says »

Also under the order, the parents must attend and complete parenting classes. The families must remain in the state of Texas and notify the department within 48 hours of any trips more than 100 miles from their homes.>>>

[warhorse46]

Originally posted by Roux


IMO the key phrase of the statement is "in the future"
despite their claims to the contrary, wouldn't that imply they have done it in the past? [/*]


The article says he stopped short of admitting it was done in the past but your point sure shows the lie in that! Good catch.

[evalles]

Originally posted by warhorse46



Not speculation when so much testimony is available from others who have experienced first hand of the criminal lifestyle of the sect.
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695270674,00.html

Now some more evidence is coming out.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/06/02/texas.polygamists/index.html?eref=rss_crime

<<<The exception involved a 16-year-old girl who the girl's attorney said was an "identified victim of sexual abuse."

The attorney said the child's release might cause her to come into contact with her alleged sexual abuser.

"The court has now signed an order applying to all children," the motion said. "But there are no restrictions or provisions which take into account the immediate risk of her alleged perpetrator having access."

The logistics of retrieving the remaining children may not be so simple, though, since some parents have children at different facilities across the state.

Under the judge's order, the Department of Family and Protective Services will still have the right to visit and interview the children.

These unannounced visits could entail medical, psychological and psychiatric examinations, and the parents must not intervene. Watch what the judge's order says »

Also under the order, the parents must attend and complete parenting classes. The families must remain in the state of Texas and notify the department within 48 hours of any trips more than 100 miles from their homes.>>> [/*]

One child that was shown to be sexually abused is not the majority. Your contentions that the majority of the mother's and fathers are guilty is pure speculation.
You keep bringing up members that haven't lived on the compound and that haven't been in the FLDS for years.
They talk about their personal experiences, it doesn't mean that every family was like theirs.

[evalles]

Originally posted by warhorse46



The article says he stopped short of admitting it was done in the past but your point sure shows the lie in that! Good catch. [/*]

That was obvious, however I took it to mean they wouldn't allow anyone under 18 to marry, even though its legal for a 16 year old to marry with parental consent.

[Roux]

Originally posted by evalles


That was obvious, however I took it to mean they wouldn't allow anyone under 18 to marry, even though its legal for a 16 year old to marry with parental consent. [/*]

I don't know how you could interpret it that way. The statement says "...will not preside over marriage of any woman under legal age of consent in the jurisdiction in which the marriage takes place..."

Nothing about 18 or 16 in the statement.

[evalles]

Originally posted by Roux


I don't know how you could interpret it that way. The statement says "...will not preside over marriage of any woman under legal age of consent in the jurisdiction in which the marriage takes place..."

Nothing about 18 or 16 in the statement. [/*]

Because the legal age of consent in Texas is 18.
Under 18, the parents or a judge have to give consent.

[MyrDawn]

Originally posted by evalles


Because the legal age of consent in Texas is 18.
Under 18, the parents or a judge have to give consent. [/*]

The age of consent in Texas is 17...Texas Penal Code Section 21.11

http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/PE/content/htm/pe.005.00.000021.00.htm#21.11.00

[Roux]

Originally posted by evalles


Because the legal age of consent in Texas is 18.
Under 18, the parents or a judge have to give consent. [/*]

You apparently took the statement to apply to the YFZ group; I took it as a statement applying to all FLDS groups.

[Haz]

Originally posted by Imperfect


Not everyone judges, Haz. I know it's hard to ignore those that do, but there are many of us here who 'get it' even though our lives, by the grace of God, haven't been as difficult as yours.

Again, thanks for sharing, Haz. [/*]

I wasn't addressing you or the other posters like you. I was addressing those who judged Flora Jessop and others like her who escaped. That's why I said:

Having been there I would NEVER judge someones clothing, attitude, opinions, behavior, etc. I do believe until you have walked a mile in that persons shoes you are not one to judge.

Sorry if I did not make that clear. I appreciate the understanding and support for my experience.

Thanks

[evalles]

Originally posted by MyrDawn


The age of consent in Texas is 17...Texas Penal Code Section 21.11

http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/PE/content/htm/pe.005.00.000021.00.htm#21.11.00 [/*]

This is the legal age for consensual sex right ? I thought it was 18 to marry.

[evalles]

Originally posted by Haz


I wasn't addressing you or the other posters like you. I was addressing those who judged Flora Jessop and others like her who escaped. That's why I said:

Having been there I would NEVER judge someones clothing, attitude, opinions, behavior, etc. I do believe until you have walked a mile in that persons shoes you are not one to judge.

Sorry if I did not make that clear. I appreciate the understanding and support for my experience.

Thanks [/*]

However, it's ok to judge all these parents ?
No evidence that even the majority was abused, yet everyone judges these parents as unfit.
There's a lot of hypocrisy on these boards.

I don't care what she wears, however it doesn't seem proper to speak as a child advocate on national TV in a Budweiser T- shirt.
That would be like going to a job interview in a tank top.

[walton]

Asked who authorized it, Jessop said, "Joseph Smith." He also said he was unaware if FLDS leader Warren S. Jeffs had any hand in crafting the statement.

* The church's policies regarding marriage have been widely misrepresented and misunderstood. Indeed, much of the misinformation circulating on this subject seems designed intentionally to fuel the flames of prejudice against the church.
* The church's practices in this regard continue a long tradition of marriage in this country that would have been found to have been unremarkable in 19th century America. In the FLDS church all marriages are consensual. The church insists on appropriate consent, including that of the woman and the man in all circumstances.
* Nevertheless the church is clarifying its policy toward marriage. Therefore, in the future, the church commits that it will not preside over the marriage of any woman under the age of legal consent in the jurisdiction in which the marriage takes place. The church will counsel families that they neither request nor consent to any underage marriages. This policy will apply church-wide.
* The church believes in purity, cleanliness, and innocence. Our children and families are the cornerstones of our lives and our religion. We hope that this modest clarification in policy will alleviate recent concerns and allow the church and its families to reside in peace among our neighbors.




What does he mean that Joseph Smith authorized it? Authorized what?

No marriages involving underage kids? He didn't say that.

No plural marriages? Joseph Smith didn't say that.

Are the FLDS going to merge with the LDS?

Did Willie have a revelation and "he " thinks he is the Prophet?

He can't be the Prophet. Warren is the Prophet.

Who held the services in the Temple?

The only one that can marry people is Warren. He supposedly has the keys.

Which group is Willie speaking for? Where is Merrill?

Where is Warren?


Something isn't right.

[walton]

Originally posted by Imperfect


Walton - again, thanks for the links.

I thought maybe the child remaining in custody, last name Jeffs, might be his daughter. I pray that if she has borne a child, it is not also Warren's. That's not likely, I guess, since she's only 16 and he's been behind bars for awhile.

As for your second link, while it's very difficult to read this kind of thing, I hope that all of this stuff just keeps surfacing and re-surfacing in the media. It's been in the dark too long. [/*]

http://www.childbrides.org/photos_Alta_Academy.html

Here are some pictures of Warren, Annette, Brent, Seth Jeffs that were in the Alta Academy Yearbook.

I know that while Warren was on the run there was talk about him being at the YFZ ranch during that time. I think Sam Brower and the Pilot captured a picture or two of a large group of people in front of the Temple that might have been trying to hide Warren.

Warren made a comment (confession sorta) while in jail that he had behaved badly with a sister/daughter. Who knows for sure.

:shrug:

I know the LE can't tell us everything but they sure could tell us something.

If Willie is coming out with this Joseph Smith story, I know that there is a whole lot more that isn't being said. A lot more. It isn't just about the money trail.

This Texas raid was big. But what they are not telling is even bigger. jmo

[Roux]

With respect to their marriages, what kind of records do they keep amongst themselves? If a young girl is taken as a wife, do the parents sign anything giving consent and/or approval? Do they have witnesses to the ceremony? Do they just record names in their Book of Mormon and/or Bishops List?

For the legitimate marriages, which I suppose would be the wife that a man can legally acknowledge, wouldn't they have to obtain licenses from the state?

[walton]

Originally posted by evalles


However, it's ok to judge all these parents ?
No evidence that even the majority was abused, yet everyone judges these parents as unfit.
There's a lot of hypocrisy on these boards.

I don't care what she wears, however it doesn't seem proper to speak as a child advocate on national TV in a Budweiser T- shirt.
That would be like going to a job interview in a tank top. [/*]


Come on evalles. fess up. your really a miller lite fan. j/k

Have you seen their Prophet Warren Jeffs in his prison issued uniform talking on a phone thru plexy glass telling his brother what things they need to do in the Church?

Lots bigger things than Floras budwieser shirt. imo If you had been following along you would know that is just how Flora is.

[walton]

Originally posted by Roux
With respect to their marriages, what kind of records do they keep amongst themselves? If a young girl is taken as a wife, do the parents sign anything giving consent and/or approval? Do they have witnesses to the ceremony? Do they just record names in their Book of Mormon and/or Bishops List?

For the legitimate marriages, which I suppose would be the wife that a man can legally acknowledge, wouldn't they have to obtain licenses from the state? [/*]

I really don't know for sure concerning the "spiritual" marriages. I know I've read stories that they write things down in their BoM. Much like my parents did in their Bible. Family history, date of marriages, date of birth, date of death.

The legal marriages I am sure it was only one per man. Rest were spiritual. jmo

[evalles]

Originally posted by walton



Come on evalles. fess up. your really a miller lite fan. j/k

Have you seen their Prophet Warren Jeffs in his prison issued uniform talking on a phone thru plexy glass telling his brother what things they need to do in the Church?

Lots bigger things than Floras budwieser shirt. imo If you had been following along you would know that is just how Flora is. [/*]

Smirnoff Triple Black, but I wouldn't go on TV in a shirt.
I believe she was abused, but I don't believe everything she says.

I don't care about Jeff's, he's where he belongs.

[walton]

Originally posted by evalles


Smirnoff Triple Black

**snipped**

[/*]



:D

[mariah79]

Originally posted by evalles


Smirnoff Triple Black, but I wouldn't go on TV in a shirt.
I believe she was abused, but I don't believe everything she says.

I don't care about Jeff's, he's where he belongs. [/*]

I can't believe you just wrote that last sentence. Don't you understand the man is still in control from where he is?

[evalles]

Originally posted by mariah79


I can't believe you just wrote that last sentence. Don't you understand the man is still in control from where he is? [/*]

He's in jail, what more can be done to him.
I think there's gonna be a new prophet in town, especially if it turns out he was the only one that molested one of his own children.

[walton]

Originally posted by evalles


He's in jail, what more can be done to him.
I think there's gonna be a new prophet in town, especially if it turns out he was the only one that molested one of his own children. [/*]

I don't like Warren.

He learned an awful lot of things from his father Rulon. I would hope that if his thinker is working that they would be trying to pick his brain. jmo

[walton]

Originally posted by Imperfect


Walton,

Good questions. What follows is just my opinion, of course ...

The question asked of Willie by the reporter or interviewer was probably intended to elicit a response involving Jeffs. Willie was prepared for it - he threw out Smith's name instead.

As much as the FLDS might want to hide behind the more lawful skirts of the LDS right about now, I'm sure the LDS are having NONE OF IT!

Willie is Warren's stooge. He's speaking for Warren or for Merril (one L or two at the end?) Jessop. I'm sure Willie would never in a million years make such a proclamation to the world without the blessing of his prophet or the stand-in prophet, Jessop. I think it's a very safe bet that those three are in regular contact.

My guess about the timing of the statement is that he was speaking as much to the men of the FLDS as to anyone else. No way in hades does the FLDS leadership want their 'spiritual marriages' to be going on in the midst of an open investigation in Texas, and hopefully more to come in other states and countries. With all those female children headed back home, he's put the entire sect on notice that there'll be no hanky panky with young girls in the near future - not while the 'beast' is snooping around.

The only other way it might've gone down is if Warren and/or Merrill told Willie that while the heat is on, he's in charge. Maybe Willie came up with that idea on his own and ran with it, or maybe he passed it by Warren and/or Merrill. IMO, though, Willie hasn't decided to take the reins without consulting the other two. Even with all his bluster and righteous indignation, I don't think Willie's crazy.

Merrill's staying way out of sight, just as Jeffs would be if not for the fact that he's behind bars. My guess is that Merrill has lots of adolescent 'wives' and children born to them. Not to mention that his ex-wife Carolyn has managed to put a blemish or two on his reputation.

I'm guessing Willie-as-spokesman either doesn't have a lot of skeletons (or child 'brides') in his closet, or they're few in comparison to other leaders in the sect. [/*]

But Willie isn't the Prophet. Even if he was just a mouth-piece he messed up by making the Joseph Smith comment. Joseph Smith didn't talk to him.

If and I say IF something happened to Warren and Willie was to step in place it is all out of the norm for the way they do things. There were no keys handed over to him. There were no revelations. It wouldn't be right.

To have the FLDS slide into the LDS isn't so far out of the stretch. IF the FLDS gave up Polygamy and the child abuse they could easily attend the LDS service without a hitch. imo

The 8 hour meeting that took place linked all these groups together.

Hey, how do you know so much about all this and where have you been? Nice to have ya here no matter the reason. Thanks.

[Details]

Warren is in jail - which doesn't mean a thing so far as who is running the cult. He can still run it just fine from in jail. Heck, gang leaders and mobsters run their illegal enterprises from jail - running a cult is far simpler. He's still the photo on the wall, the voice on the tapes, the photo in their books. Maybe they will select a new leader, maybe he will be better or worse. But being in jail doesn't mean a thing, so far as saying who the leader is.


He belongs in jail, and good thing he is in there - but he's still able to assign wives, set marriages, and set policy from there.

[MyrDawn]

Originally posted by evalles


This is the legal age for consensual sex right ? I thought it was 18 to marry. [/*]

Yep, it is 18 to marry. Seventeen is the legal age of consent to have sex.

[Carol25]

Is it possible there is a silent coup going on? That Willie figures that Warren will be gone a very long time (indictments coming down which may very well lead to a long confinement for WJ, the girl being held back from going to the ranch).

If speaking to John Smith refers to statements of Smith's about prophets and even "relevations", perhaps he's beginning to slide into the prophet's place?

[witchy1]

I found this trying to figure out the lineage of control of the sect.http://www.childpro.org/2007/documents/Tape%204%20FLDS.doc
Walton do you know how they, shall we say, pass the torch?
TIA

[walton]

Originally posted by witchy1
I found this trying to figure out the lineage of control of the sect.http://www.childpro.org/2007/documents/Tape%204%20FLDS.doc
Walton do you know how they, shall we say, pass the torch?
TIA [/*]

Hey witchy thanks for that link. Did ya have to listen to these tapes to get that ? Wow. And I gotta give ya credit. As interested as I am in this story, I could not listen to 5 minutes of his sermons.

I might be wayyy off but from all that I have seen or at least all that my brain has absorbed... I think it is the death of a Prophet before a new Prophet takes over.

Warren officially took over when Rulon died.

Rulon was getting on in years so he might have did the head bobbing thing at the dinner table and meetings but he was still the Prophet.

Some things might have been started and finished by Warren during that time but it was Rulons name that followed the word Prophet.

Rulon snuck in and did some fast sliding and two stepping to get himself into a position that allowed him the spot to be considered the Prophet. But he himself shouldn't never have been.

But Rulon had the smarts and the monies and the know how to make it all sound good for those that "believed."

I think Rulons dream was money and Warrens dream was to be worshiped like Joseph Smith. Warren already had the money. He just didn't have the respect.

Warren wanted to be respected by his dad. All his life he did everything to please his dad and in the end his dad got old and forgetful and didn't see the rise of Warren. So either out of respect (?) or out of anger Warren married all of his Fathers wives. His Father would be less than when it came to placement in their Kingdom.

Willie didn't/doesn't have any place in this lineage. None. If it is anyone it should be one of these guys. Warrens eldest son, Warrens brother, Wendell Nielson ( right hand money maker - law breaker) or Merril Jessop.

OR... it should go back to the Allreds which scares me, but Utah is leaning towards.

I will dig up some links and maybe someone can make heads or tails out of it.

Willies name didn't come into the picture until AFTER Warren was in jail and he fasted for days and went with out sleep for so long. Willie was Warrens body guard. He moved people.

Willie is no Prophet. Never was a Prophet never will be a Prophet. Nope, nope nope. If I know it those people know it.

Something just isn't right.

[witchy1]

Yeah. Walton, there is always a motive, but IMO, it has nothing to do with salvation. And warren did marry all of his Fathers wives to surplant his father in the mind of the followers.

[witchy1]

Here is an other attempt to justify their beliefs.http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4629320

[walton]

They say Warren tried to kill himself. But I didn't believe it back then and I don't believe it now. Warren was/is too full of himself to do such a thing. According to his beliefs he couldn't do such a thing.

As I said before, I think Warren just got goofy. ok, goofier. Probably without sleep and then fasting the guy as skinny and as tall as he is probably got hooked up in his shirt the wrong way.

They were treating him for I think depression and I am sure that the meds were not moderated close enough and he did the wibble wobble scene for a few weeks until they got the dosage down the right way. The reports for all this is on Brookes Salt Lake tribune site. ( Minus my descriptive version.)

The general public has NOT seen Warren since the last day in Judge Shumates courtroom. On the day of sentencing they did not allow cameras nor were any descriptions coming out of that courtroom detailed. Zippo. Nadda. No Nothing.

Gag order? Where is Warren?

There was a poster here that always said Warren was going to spend the rest of his life in prison.

I didn't buy it. For two reasons. It was Utah. And even though what he has done is really bad. I have read about people killing others in Utah and being sentenced to 5 years to life. example Mark Hacking.

There was a lot of noise coming out of Shurtleff and Willie a week or so ago. I said it was a diversion. I still think it is. Attention is on Willie but who should it be on? Attention is on Shurtleff but who should it be on? Hmmm

[walton]

http://www.mormonfundamentalism.com/index.html

The family tree so to speak.


And here is a little on Rulon:

http://www.mormonfundamentalism.com/ChartLinks/RulonJeffs.htm

[witchy1]

Thanks Walton :read:

[walton]

http://www.childbrides.org/catch_spec_police_act_on_Warren_tip.html

Holm said the Cedar City police took the tip as "credible." Private investigator Sam Brower, who has worked with police in the past on the Jeffs case, said the home, located at 2444 W. Pachea Trail in the Blackrock subdivision, is owned by Willy Jessop, a bodyguard of Jeffs.

Although police were at the home for more than four hours, no arrests were made. However, a man and a woman were taken in for questioning, Salt Lake City FBI media coordinator Patrick Kiernan said.

"Apparently when they were questioned, they gave conflicting stories - enough so that it raised concerns of law enforcement even more," Kiernan said.

Permission to search the home was not initially granted, but police later were given limited consent to search.




I almost didn't find this.

I had it filed under snake, grass, bite j/k

[walton]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2003172/posts

2 :15 p.m. - Outside the courthouse, a television reporter asks William Jessop, who says he is an FLDS member, what he would say to his children.

He replies, "Keep sweet and come home."

[walton]

http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/labels/Warren%20Jeffs.htm

Scroll down to the entry dated Nov. 28th

William E. Jessop is really William E. Timpson. His mother was Kathy Jessop, a daughter of Edson Jessop. She was married to Alma A. Timpson. Timpson helped found Centennial Park with Marion Hammon after a falling out with Leroy S. Johnson in the mid-1980s.

Kathy sided with her family, which stayed loyal to Johnson. She left Timpson and was placed with Fred Jessop, the FLDS bishop and big man about the twin towns.

William E. adopted his stepfather's last name. Several sources told me he is in his late 30s to mid-40s.




plot thickens- check out Alma Timpson and any new articles concerning the Centennial Park polygamy groups that have been in the Utah news lately.



Ha... I knew it.

[Carol25]

I wonder if there is anyway for Warren to "atone" for his past actions. Some statements have come out purported to be from him that would make the elders of the church feel he is not worthy of being the prophet. How could that be done while he is in prison? Could someone get at him? Why haven't we seen him? Is he ill?

[Carol25]

Read:

What Warren said to William

and

To Be or Not to Be a Prophet

http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/labels/Warren%20Jeffs.htm


Hmmmm.

[walton]

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=2709009

Driving past the Cedar City Walgreen's a couple of weeks ago, private eye Sam Brower saw something that made him grab his camera. "Some little kids out working on a construction site," he says.

He snapped two photos of a boy he'd seen working with concrete. He appeared exceptionally young. Brower said, "I'm gonna guess about 8, maybe."

He also photographed an older boy on the job site and at the wheel of a water truck belonging to R & W Excavating. The head of that company is Willie Jessop, who once testified he was a bodyguard for now-imprisoned polygamist Warren Jeffs.