Daily thread 5/15 - 5/21 [Archive] - In Session Message Boards

walton

05-15-2008, 12:16 PM

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/051508dntexpolygamist.ff72cc62.html

In advance of court hearings that begin Monday, Child Protective Services has drafted 10 goals and 14 tasks that parents will have to work toward in order to regain custody of their children.

CPS is proposing to give parents until next April to “provide a home free of persons who have or will abuse” children and “demonstrate the ability to protect the child(ren) from sexual abuse.” The children will remain in state custody until a judge is satisfied that the parents have complied.

walton

05-15-2008, 12:27 PM

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_9259523

Several women who have left describe a flow of underage females across the border, through Idaho, sent from Bountiful to the Texas compound for arranged marriages. Canadian officials say at least one of their citizens was seized by Texas authorities in last month's raid; Bountiful residents said there were at least several more.
Some Bountiful community members have been buying property and settling down in Idaho, which is just a 30-minute hike through the woods, or a 10-minute drive past a tiny border station.
Authorities in Idaho and FBI agents, who recently met with leaders in Bountiful, say the new residents will not find sanctuary if they want to practice polygamy there.

Interesting that the Authorities in Idaho and FBI agents said that they would not find sanctuary in Idaho. I don't believe I've ever heard that said about Utah or Arizona.

Ladyhawk

05-15-2008, 01:31 PM

Thanks for the link Walton. Interesting reading about the split within the group.

In the photos accompanying the article, photo number five shows employees at J.R. Blackmore & Sons and the employee on the left in the blue jacket doesn't look a day over 14 to me.

Ladyhawk

05-15-2008, 01:57 PM

Originally posted by grammybear
walton, thanksfor the info. I guess it will be a wait and see stand now. With all these women who have been so indoctoranated in the FLDS way of thinking I think it will be very hard for these women to stand strong and follow through.

Quite interesting what the LE and Idaho have to say about this issue. If as that last article says they have brought people such as the child brides to another state wouldn't that be considered kidnapping?

I suspect that the FBI has been looking into this group for a long time.

jmoo [/*]

I think it would be hard for anyone to accept that their entire way of life and everything they believed was wrong. I know it would be hard for me to accept it....I was devastated when I found out about Santa :D

Seriously though, the transport of females across state lines for immoral purposes is called the Mann Act and I think this is interesting....Mann Act case decision Cleveland v. United States (329 U.S. 14, 16-17) (1946). The Court decided that a person can be prosecuted under the Mann Act even when married to the woman if the marriage is polygamous. Thus polygamous marriage was determined to be an “immoral purpose.”

amoo

Rainkiss

05-15-2008, 05:42 PM

Couple of interesting finds today:

Destroying a village to save a village (http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20080514_destroying_a_village_of_pedophilia/)

Some excellent points, well-written.

Also, in the news...

dallasnews.com (http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/051508dntexpolygamist.ff72cc62.html)

News on what CPS is outlining in order to facilitate returning the children:

CPS is proposing to give parents until next April to “provide a home free of persons who have or will abuse” children and “demonstrate the ability to protect the child(ren) from sexual abuse.” The children will remain in state custody until a judge is satisfied that the parents have complied.

On Wednesday, CPS spokesman Patrick Crimmins stressed that the guidelines — known as service plans — are silent about plural marriage and religious beliefs of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

“This is not about polygamy and it is not about religion,” Mr. Crimmins said. “It is about child sexual abuse and our commitment to protect children.”

He said, though, that youngsters were removed from the ranch because “children could not be safe there. We are trying to determine what acceptable living arrangements the parents can develop so the children are safe and protected.”

The guidelines suggest any new form of communal living is suspect. As in most child-abuse cases, the service plans say that parents must give CPS workers the names of everyone in the home and let workers make unannounced visits to verify who’s there.

And:

Former state District Judge Scott McCown of Austin said it’s significant that CPS states in the service plans for sect children that the goal is reunifying families. In rare cases, such as when a father has committed horrific crimes against his children, CPS won’t even attempt to put the family back together, he said.

Mr. Sampson said sexual abuse and abandonment revealed at the ranch “would normally yield termination of parental rights” and not include an attempt at reunification.

Sounds like there's a little frustration with the forms CPS has set up for the parents to work with, but it also calls those forms "templates," which, at least to me, means the parents can work with the forms and make them fit their own situations.

I'm very interested to see what happens at the hearings. The adults have been saying all along, "tell us what to do, and we'll do it." They're being told, it sounds like.

Details

05-15-2008, 05:49 PM

I think they're being given a bit more of a chance than a family normally would because for many of them they were raised to believe this was right - so they're getting an extra chance that someone who was raised normally and knew more of the real world doesn't get.

I'm sure that will depend on each individual child's statements and condition as well though. Someone who has waterboarded babies (providing that any of their children or wives will reveal that information) should never get a child back.

walton

05-15-2008, 07:25 PM

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9271334

"The governor is very proud of the work being done by CPS," Piferrer said. "CPS has handled a very complex situation both professionally and compassionately."

Interesting to note that the spokesperson said about the complaints that Mr. Knight had concerning the CPS.

The governor's spokeswoman said the complaints were released to the news media before state officials were notified.
"Considering that DFPS (the Texas Department of Family Protective Services) had to ask for those reports after reading about them in the newspaper might suggest that he (Kight) might have his own agenda," Piferrer said.

I think this spokeswoman is right on the mark. More at the link.

walton

05-15-2008, 07:30 PM

Originally posted by Ladyhawk
Thanks for the link Walton. Interesting reading about the split within the group.

In the photos accompanying the article, photo number five shows employees at J.R. Blackmore & Sons and the employee on the left in the blue jacket doesn't look a day over 14 to me. [/*]

Dang your good. I didn't even see the photos until you mentioned it.

Blackmore should be sitting in his own little cell singing his own little songs. jmo

walton

05-16-2008, 01:48 AM

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700224522,00.html?pg=1

Jeffs is scheduled to appear in court for a hearing on May 16.

The FLDS leader was convicted in Utah last year of rape as an accomplice for performing a marriage between a 14-year-old girl and her 19-year-old cousin. Jeffs was sentenced to a pair of 5-to-life sentences in the Utah State Prison. He is currently incarcerated at the Mohave County Jail, where sheriff's deputies said he has been kept in isolation since his arrival.

I wonder if this is still scheduled.

I wonder if the media will be allowed in the courtroom or if photographers will be allowed to take pictures.

Isn't this Judge Steven F. Conn that is going to hear the case?

walton

05-16-2008, 01:52 AM

Among the things that parents in the polygamist sect would have to do to regain custody of their children:

•Provide a home free of abusive persons.

•Tell the state who's living on all floors of buildings they live in.

•Document their marriages and divorces.

•Attend parenting classes.

•Attend individual and family counseling sessions.

•Submit to DNA testing.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/051508dntexpolygamist.ff72cc62.html

KatyDid

05-16-2008, 08:33 AM

Originally posted by walton
Among the things that parents in the polygamist sect would have to do to regain custody of their children:

•Provide a home free of abusive persons.

•Tell the state who's living on all floors of buildings they live in.

•Document their marriages and divorces.

•Attend parenting classes.

•Attend individual and family counseling sessions.

•Submit to DNA testing.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/051508dntexpolygamist.ff72cc62.html [/*]

Considering the living conditions/arrangements at the compound, this list doesn't look out of line to me.

Thanks for posting it walton :seeya:

KatyDid

05-16-2008, 08:35 AM

Isn't today the day Elissa Wall will be on GMA and 20/20? I have it written on my calendar to watch.

walton

05-16-2008, 10:03 AM

Here is the TRUE story of Fawn Broadbent.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/specials/runningforalife/sunday.html

Fawn's two older sisters were married within hours of being told whom they would wed. One sister was just 16 when she became the 23rd wife of Winston Blackmore, an FLDS leader in Canada. When Blackmore fell out of favor, Jeffs reassigned her to another man.

A few months after being listed in the Joy Book, Fawn told her father she wanted to leave Colorado City. Three older brothers already had left, labeled apostates by the faithful. Fawn's father told her they were dead.

Her boyfriend Steven Bateman has appeared on Anderson Cooper: http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:ydaUqj6AlXAJ:transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0709/22/acd.02.html+steven+bateman+polygamy&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

STEVEN BATEMAN, FORMER FLDS MEMBER: My name is Steven Bateman. I am the son of David Bateman, who has been convicted of sexual abuse of a minor.

I was raised in the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, the FLDS. In 2004, I left the FLDS Church and relocated in Salt Lake City, Utah.

This is one of the few pictures I have got from of my family from down there in Colorado City. It's an old picture, but it's the only one I have as a family.

I definitely miss them, for sure.

Well, my dad was a public schoolteacher, and I went to school up to eighth grade. And, once I got done with eighth grade -- and that's the last year that they said -- that's the year that they cut off public schools down there in Colorado City.

I'm an engineering technician, which we design and create robotic automated systems. I also have a handyman's business, where I do part-time after work and on weekends that I do handyman services. And it's nice to have a little bit of extra money to help get by.

walton

05-16-2008, 10:08 AM

Originally posted by KatyDid

Considering the living conditions/arrangements at the compound, this list doesn't look out of line to me.

Thanks for posting it walton :seeya: [/*]

I thought it looked very reasonable.

lotty

05-16-2008, 10:10 AM

Originally posted by walton
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700224522,00.html?pg=1

Jeffs is scheduled to appear in court for a hearing on May 16.

The FLDS leader was convicted in Utah last year of rape as an accomplice for performing a marriage between a 14-year-old girl and her 19-year-old cousin. Jeffs was sentenced to a pair of 5-to-life sentences in the Utah State Prison. He is currently incarcerated at the Mohave County Jail, where sheriff's deputies said he has been kept in isolation since his arrival.

I wonder if this is still scheduled.

I wonder if the media will be allowed in the courtroom or if photographers will be allowed to take pictures.

Isn't this Judge Steven F. Conn that is going to hear the case? [/*]

Hmmmm...I guess it is still scheduled, I haven't seen anything that says it's not. Although somedays it takes a while for them to get something new up.

http://www.mohavecourts.com/highprofile/highprofileJeffs.htm

walton

05-16-2008, 10:21 AM

Originally posted by lotty

Hmmmm...I guess it is still scheduled, I haven't seen anything that says it's not. Although somedays it takes a while for them to get something new up.

http://www.mohavecourts.com/highprofile/highprofileJeffs.htm [/*]

And Steven F. Conn is the Judge. Hmmmmm

lotty

05-16-2008, 10:38 AM

Originally posted by walton

And Steven F. Conn is the Judge. Hmmmmm [/*]

Yes.
The court calendar.
http://www.mohavecourts.com/calendar/division3.pdf

Roux

05-16-2008, 10:41 AM

Originally posted by walton
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9271334

"The governor is very proud of the work being done by CPS," Piferrer said. "CPS has handled a very complex situation both professionally and compassionately."

Interesting to note that the spokesperson said about the complaints that Mr. Knight had concerning the CPS.

The governor's spokeswoman said the complaints were released to the news media before state officials were notified.
"Considering that DFPS (the Texas Department of Family Protective Services) had to ask for those reports after reading about them in the newspaper might suggest that he (Kight) might have his own agenda," Piferrer said.

I think this spokeswoman is right on the mark. More at the link. [/*]

I'm concerned about the allegations made by the HCMHMR but I also wonder about Chairman Kight's agenda. Why release to the media before meeting with CPS or the governor when he knows this is such an emotionally charged situation? Why were there no names given of the mental health workers making these serious allegations (no privacy issue IMO re THEIR names). I've gone to their website and am considering sending an email voicing my concerns over the way Kight has handled this.

walton

05-16-2008, 10:48 AM

Originally posted by Roux

I'm concerned about the allegations made by the HCMHMR but I also wonder about Chairman Kight's agenda. Why release to the media before meeting with CPS or the governor when he knows this is such an emotionally charged situation? Why were there no names given of the mental health workers making these serious allegations (no privacy issue IMO re THEIR names). I've gone to their website and am considering sending an email voicing my concerns over the way Kight has handled this. [/*]

I tried finding something on this John Kight and the only thing I kept coming up with is a John Kight who does something with rainwater irrigation type system.

I don't know if it is the same one or not. :shrug:

I remember there was an issue early on during the building of the Temple with some type of irrigation system. Again no clue if they are connected. jmo

evalles

05-16-2008, 11:07 AM

Roux

05-16-2008, 11:11 AM

Originally posted by walton

I tried finding something on this John Kight and the only thing I kept coming up with is a John Kight who does something with rainwater irrigation type system.

I don't know if it is the same one or not. :shrug:

I remember there was an issue early on during the building of the Temple with some type of irrigation system. Again no clue if they are connected. jmo [/*]

Ahh, irrigation...that explains the green, green grass surrounding the temple! I always noticed how green it was compared to the surrounding grounds.

walton

05-16-2008, 11:23 AM

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=4863899&page=1

Wall has documented her terrible ordeal in a new memoir called "Stolen Innocence."

In it, she described in detail growing up in the sect that she says betrayed her faith. She says her wedding was the culmination of a traumatic experience that began when church leaders removed her, her mom and sisters from their family and reassigned them to another man — Fred Jessop.

Then, just months after her eighth-grade graduation, Jessop told her she'd be married in a week.

"Deep down inside, I knew it wasn't right," Wall said. "I didn't want to be married at 14. [Sect members] honestly believe, and I did and so did my mother, that God sent down inspiration from heaven, like a strike of lightning, down to the prophet. This was God's word. And we were to follow it, obediently and happily."

Boy, am I slow to catch on. Check out all the videos.

KatyDid

05-16-2008, 11:30 AM

Originally posted by Roux

I'm concerned about the allegations made by the HCMHMR but I also wonder about Chairman Kight's agenda. Why release to the media before meeting with CPS or the governor when he knows this is such an emotionally charged situation? Why were there no names given of the mental health workers making these serious allegations (no privacy issue IMO re THEIR names). I've gone to their website and am considering sending an email voicing my concerns over the way Kight has handled this. [/*]

ITA!! The way he handled it leads me to believe he has a personal agenda. He didn't take it through the customary channels. Had he done that and then gone to the media with his documentation, I think he would be more believable.

As it is, he looks like he is grandstanding for personal gain.

walton

05-16-2008, 12:23 PM

http://www.childbrides.org/texas_YFZ_parents_greet_newborn.html

From 2005

The Success has learned, however, that the 18-year-old mother-to-be was accompanied to the hospital by family members, including the baby's father and paternal grandparents.

Representatives of Child Protective Services were reportedly contacted by hospital personnel when the baby’s parents would not provide the health care workers with adequate information. CPS spokesperson Marleigh Meisner said that she was aware of developments at the YFZ Ranch but would neither confirm nor deny her agency’s involvement in connection with the newborn infant.

KatyDid

05-16-2008, 12:31 PM

Any news on Warren's hearing today?
Is it still on?

Is the next hearing in Texas still May 19th?

lotty

05-16-2008, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by KatyDid
Any news on Warren's hearing today?
Is it still on?

Is the next hearing in Texas still May 19th? [/*]

Warren's should be today, 1:30 in AZ.

walton

05-16-2008, 12:37 PM

Originally posted by KatyDid
Any news on Warren's hearing today?
Is it still on?

Is the next hearing in Texas still May 19th? [/*]

So far it is still a yes for both.

Michael Jackson showed up for late for his court hearings and showed up in his jammies. But you could still tell it was Michael Jackson.

Wonder if Warren will be in a Dart Vadar costume. Ya know to protect is identity. (For security reasons ) j/k

KatyDid

05-16-2008, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by walton

So far it is still a yes for both.

Michael Jackson showed up for late for his court hearings and showed up in his jammies. But you could still tell it was Michael Jackson.

Wonder if Warren will be in a Dart Vadar costume. Ya know to protect is identity. (For security reasons ) j/k [/*]

:lol: yeah...or maybe dressed as a nun. wouldn't that be sweet?

KatyDid

05-16-2008, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by lotty

Warren's should be today, 1:30 in AZ. [/*]

Thank you lotty :seeya:

Details

05-16-2008, 01:38 PM

Originally posted by evalles
IMO, he wanted the truth to come out. CPS wouldn't have released it to the public [/*]If he just wanted the truth out, he could send it to CPS first, to the media if and when they don't take action (as in, "I expect to hear immediately what is being done to correct this, or I will forward to the media - give them a day or two). To the media first speaks volumes. As do the substance of the allegations.

And not only to the media first and only (not CPS, not the governor, no attempt made to solve the problem - if any - I'm not convinced of that - ex-FLDS consultant saw something different, even within the letters there's quite the range of stories) - but now talking about hiring civil rights lawyers - something doesn't ring true about his actions.

I think he saw some of his people upset over the conditions, encouraged that upset, got the letters, and used them for the publicity he wants. FLDS has ample money for lawyers, not to mention that the ACLU is there, tons of lawyers are there, for the men, the women, the children, etc.

evalles

05-16-2008, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by Details
If he just wanted the truth out, he could send it to CPS first, to the media if and when they don't take action (as in, "I expect to hear immediately what is being done to correct this, or I will forward to the media - give them a day or two). To the media first speaks volumes. As do the substance of the allegations.

And not only to the media first and only (not CPS, not the governor, no attempt made to solve the problem - if any - I'm not convinced of that - ex-FLDS consultant saw something different, even within the letters there's quite the range of stories) - but now talking about hiring civil rights lawyers - something doesn't ring true about his actions.

I think he saw some of his people upset over the conditions, encouraged that upset, got the letters, and used them for the publicity he wants. FLDS has ample money for lawyers, not to mention that the ACLU is there, tons of lawyers are there, for the men, the women, the children, etc. [/*]

The governor is in charge of CPS, based on what they saw, IMO they had no reason to believe that CPS had done the right thing. Also, with all the propaganda against these people, they need to be heard.
I see no reason why the social workers would lie, and they certainly seem sincere.
This issue is all over the media, it's not fair to wage what, in my opinion is a campaign against these families and not allow any information that supports them be heard.
We should also know what our tax money is paying for.

Roux

05-16-2008, 02:26 PM

Originally posted by evalles

The governor is in charge of CPS, based on what they saw, IMO they had no reason to believe that CPS had done the right thing. Also, with all the propaganda against these people, they need to be heard.
I see no reason why the social workers would lie, and they certainly seem sincere.
This issue is all over the media, it's not fair to wage what, in my opinion is a campaign against these families and not allow any information that supports them be heard.
We should also know what our tax money is paying for. [/*]

These families have been all over the morning talk shows and allowed to state their position for themselves. If there's any propaganda, IMO it's the FLDS, not the state.

Neither do I know why the mental health workers would lie, but there was a lot about their statements that just didn't sound right. I agree with the fellow from the Baptist home who said much of it was a differing point of view.

KatyDid

05-16-2008, 03:17 PM

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700226577,00.html?pg=1

FLDS leader's lawyers seek dismissal of indictment
By Ben Winslow
Deseret News
Published: Friday, May 16, 2008 10:21 a.m. MDT

Jeffs is scheduled to appear in a Kingman court this afternoon for a scheduling hearing. The FLDS leader is charged there with sexual misconduct with a minor and incest as an accomplice, accusing him of performing child-bride marriages.

Some good background in this article about the purpose of the hearing today. At the link.

Details

05-16-2008, 03:21 PM

Originally posted by evalles
The governor is in charge of CPS, based on what they saw, IMO they had no reason to believe that CPS had done the right thing. Also, with all the propaganda against these people, they need to be heard.
I see no reason why the social workers would lie, and they certainly seem sincere.
This issue is all over the media, it's not fair to wage what, in my opinion is a campaign against these families and not allow any information that supports them be heard.
We should also know what our tax money is paying for. [/*]A campaign? CPS hardly talks - we get what comes out in court, and a response only to the media release of these allegations.

FLDS is on the air continuously, make all kinds of allegations. There's no lack of them being heard.

There's no campaign, other than FLDS. The rest of it is the media reporting the story - and, IMO, seeing the obvious - that when you have a cult whose core belief is child abuse, that something must be done.

Details

05-16-2008, 03:32 PM

I don't think the social workers lied - I think they were emotionally involved, and let those emotions dictate how they saw the situation, I think they were used to the 'normal' situation they are called in (counselling disaster victims), and couldn't adapt to this much more difficult situation. I do think at least one report was not what the social worker saw, but what she was told by a FLDS mother - which would make it very biased and unreliable (IIRC, BTW, there are videos of the mothers or children leaving that contradict the scene described by the MH workers - or did I imagine that?).

They get there, the women seem nice, they are counsellors, not investigators, so they bond and take the side of the women. Not a good thing when they are supposed to be neutral, and when an investigation is going on into the things that a nice "sweet" exterior can hide. So, when the nice sweet women are asked the hard questions - they were upset - they're used to a disaster, and if a disaster worker was asking tough questions of a disaster victim, that'd be a bad thing. Here - the hard questions must be asked, the children must be able to answer questions without the mother listening, the CPS workers must make sure that the mothers are not impeding the investigation and ordering children to be silent. It's a totally different situation from when you are called in as help and an ear for families who have lost their home to a hurricane or some similar disaster. And it's an uncomfortable place - hard for such a small county to instantly provide 550 people a comfortable site.

I think the MH people, naturally, didn't know or understand all of why the children were there, and reacted to that, began to take sides, and that is a real problem. I read every letter they wrote (and it's notable that some found no problem at all with the CPS workers demeanor nor actions - were they blind - or do we have a contradiction here) - and most of what they discuss is a culture clash between investigators and counsellors, IMO.

Ladyhawk

05-16-2008, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by walton
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9271334

~~snip~~

Interesting to note that the spokesperson said about the complaints that Mr. Knight had concerning the CPS.

The governor's spokeswoman said the complaints were released to the news media before state officials were notified.
"Considering that DFPS (the Texas Department of Family Protective Services) had to ask for those reports after reading about them in the newspaper might suggest that he (Kight) might have his own agenda," Piferrer said.

I think this spokeswoman is right on the mark. More at the link. [/*]

After reading the complaints for myself, I find it hard to believe that these complaints were written by individual degreed professionals. Grammar, sentence structure, spelling, verb tense errors throughout each one. Mr. Kight should be more upset that people on the payroll of his MHMR corporation would submit something like this as a 'professional' opinion. It wouldn't surprise me if each of these complaints weren't written by the same person. There is a thread of similarity in each in the way the mothers are described and not one clearly defined 'bad CPS behavior" incident....not one says "I observed...."; or "on the night of ....."; or "I witnessed.....". In one complaint ms. unknown worker says he/she goes in and sees all the mothers sitting with their children, reading to them...and then one of the mothers asks where did they take our children. Nope...I don't think these were written by professional MHMR workers.

walton

05-16-2008, 04:53 PM

Boy, I have been all over the place. Arizona, Utah, Texas, CNN, ABC, MSNBC, Fox, local newspapers, local radio, local television, blogs and messageboards.

Nothing so far about the hearing.

I wonder if when they do go to print- if we will see the same old mug shot they have been using of Warren. Or some of the photos that Ben Winslow took in court on the day that he was found guilty.

I studied them so much I know what color ties they were wearing.

Court on a Friday at 1:30. kinda looking like a leaning towards dropping the charges doesn't it? Everyone is already disgusted with Judge Steven F. Conn.

I bet we won't get to see Warren. I bet we won't even get to see someone dressed up like Warren or Darth Vadar for that matter.

jmo

KatyDid

05-16-2008, 05:07 PM

Originally posted by walton
Boy, I have been all over the place. Arizona, Utah, Texas, CNN, ABC, MSNBC, Fox, local newspapers, local radio, local television, blogs and messageboards.

Nothing so far about the hearing.

I wonder if when they do go to print- if we will see the same old mug shot they have been using of Warren. Or some of the photos that Ben Winslow took in court on the day that he was found guilty.

I studied them so much I know what color ties they were wearing.

Court on a Friday at 1:30. kinda looking like a leaning towards dropping the charges doesn't it? Everyone is already disgusted with Judge Steven F. Conn.

I bet we won't get to see Warren. I bet we won't even get to see someone dressed up like Warren or Darth Vadar for that matter.

jmo [/*]

I've been looking everywhere too walton. I'm coming up empty. It looks like the AP is probably there to report what happens in court today.

I don't know anything aout the judge.

With all the media attention on the FLDS lately, I'm wondering if the judge wants that kind of attention on him if he drops the charges.

Mimi428

05-16-2008, 05:13 PM

Originally posted by Ladyhawk

After reading the complaints for myself, I find it hard to believe that these complaints were written by individual degreed professionals. . .
Nope...I don't think these were written by professional MHMR workers. [/*]

<bandwidth snip>

I completely agree with your assessment. I read emotional, subjective sentences. Professionals don't write that way.

JMO

walton

05-16-2008, 05:21 PM

Originally posted by KatyDid

I've been looking everywhere too walton. I'm coming up empty. It looks like the AP is probably there to report what happens in court today.

I don't know anything aout the judge.

With all the media attention on the FLDS lately, I'm wondering if the judge wants that kind of attention on him if he drops the charges. [/*]

He is the one that sentenced Fischer to 45 days for sleeping with his stepdaughter. He is married to her mother. When she wrote a letter to the Judge asking for him to go light on Fischer she called Fischer- Father in parts of her letter and she also referred to him as her husband.

She was 16 years old and had children with Fischer. Her spiritual husband who was also her step-father. :flamemad: Her letter screamed of being mentally abused.

Conn really doesn't have anything to lose. Who is going to come down on him?

walton

05-16-2008, 05:23 PM

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz

Katydid & Walton - it's only 2:15 in Arizona, so the hearing is probably still underway. Doubt we'll see anything til it's over? [/*]

:eek:

I always think that everyone is in the same warpzone that I am in.

Thanks

KatyDid

05-16-2008, 05:26 PM

Originally posted by walton

He is the one that sentenced Fischer to 45 days for sleeping with his stepdaughter. He is married to her mother. When she wrote a letter to the Judge asking for him to go light on Fischer she called Fischer- Father in parts of her letter and she also referred to him as her husband.

She was 16 years old and had children with Fischer. Her spiritual husband who was also her step-father. :flamemad: Her letter screamed of being mentally abused.

Conn really doesn't have anything to lose. Who is going to come down on him? [/*]

OFGS!!!

:cuss:

KatyDid

05-16-2008, 05:27 PM

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz

Katydid & Walton - it's only 2:15 in Arizona, so the hearing is probably still underway. Doubt we'll see anything til it's over? [/*]

:o :D so it is...

my anticipation is getting to me...

KatyDid

05-16-2008, 05:32 PM

Originally posted by Mimi428

<bandwidth snip>

I completely agree with your assessment. I read emotional, subjective sentences. Professionals don't write that way.

JMO [/*]

I've been trying to read them too. ITA, there was a lot of emotion in the ones I've read so far.

Maybe it's liek Details said, it is a unique situation this time...one they are not sure how they should react.

One thing I noticed too...so far I haven't read what these MHMR professionals think about letting these children go back to the compound. Do these MHMR know the teachings of the FLDS?

Yes these kids are well behaved...they are branwashed into 'staying sweet' using fear based tactics.

I think the most telling thing is these letters were released to the media before CPS was ever aware there were complaints or issues with MHMR.

KatyDid

05-16-2008, 07:33 PM

Arizona judge delays ruling on Jeffs' incest charges

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9283126

KINGMAN, Ariz. - Lawyers for imprisoned polygamist leader Warren Jeffs asked a judge to drop incest charges Friday afternoon in a Mohave County, Ariz. courtroom, but the judge did not rule on the request.

:punch:

evalles

05-16-2008, 07:46 PM

Mimi428

05-16-2008, 08:09 PM

Originally posted by KatyDid

I've been trying to read them too. ITA, there was a lot of emotion in the ones I've read so far.

Maybe it's liek Details said, it is a unique situation this time...one they are not sure how they should react.

One thing I noticed too...so far I haven't read what these MHMR professionals think about letting these children go back to the compound. Do these MHMR know the teachings of the FLDS?

Yes these kids are well behaved...they are branwashed into 'staying sweet' using fear based tactics.

I think the most telling thing is these letters were released to the media before CPS was ever aware there were complaints or issues with MHMR. [/*]

I certainly agree that this massive undertaking would have presented a situation most have not dealt with before. That being said, I still cannot figure out how or why the writers would have lost their abilities to write succintly, accurately, objectively. To report details, to describe specifics.

I don't have the pages opened right now, so I cannot give a direct reference to any particular passage - but I will say, in general (& from working with & being related to people in this field) that they would make every effort to attempt to encourage coping mechanisms - AND they would surely be interested in reporting FACTS. It is possible to give a factual report without using phrases such as (this is not verbatim) 'sorrowful eyes'. That sort of writing is not the hallmark of a professional, working in the mental health and/or social workers field.

JMO

KatyDid

05-16-2008, 08:19 PM

Originally posted by Mimi428

I certainly agree that this massive undertaking would have presented a situation most have not dealt with before. That being said, I still cannot figure out how or why the writers would have lost their abilities to write succintly, accurately, objectively. To report details, to describe specifics.

I don't have the pages opened right now, so I cannot give a direct reference to any particular passage - but I will say, in general (& from working with & being related to people in this field) that they would make every effort to attempt to encourage coping mechanisms - AND they would surely be interested in reporting FACTS. It is possible to give a factual report without using phrases such as (this is not verbatim) 'sorrowful eyes'. That sort of writing is not the hallmark of a professional, working in the mental health and/or social workers field.

JMO [/*]

I totally agree with you!! The letters were not objective, IMO and showed a lot of emotion connected to them. I wish they would write what they think of underage girls being forced to marry for her own salvation.

Roux

05-16-2008, 08:27 PM

Originally posted by KatyDid

I totally agree with you!! The letters were not objective, IMO and showed a lot of emotion connected to them. I wish they would write what they think of underage girls being forced to marry for her own salvation. [/*]

I know this seems far fetched but the tone of some of those letters reminded me of Willie's style of writing!

KatyDid

05-16-2008, 08:30 PM

Originally posted by Roux

I know this seems far fetched but the tone of some of those letters reminded me of Willie's style of writing! [/*]

OMG~~and I was thinking when reading them they sounded like they were scripted by the flds mothers.

Mimi428

05-16-2008, 08:46 PM

Originally posted by Roux

I know this seems far fetched but the tone of some of those letters reminded me of Willie's style of writing! [/*]

Yes, they do. Remarkably so in some instances, IMO.

Roux

05-16-2008, 08:46 PM

Thanks to everyone for posting the new links. I was one who was chastised by CW for posting on the links thread; I got carried away by a poster's comment and without thinking gave her an attaboy the other day.

Getting ready to watch 20/20 but I will definitely read some of the recently posted links.

walton

05-16-2008, 09:05 PM

http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/

What does this mean?

From the link: The defense's Motion for Subpoena Duces Tecum seeks medical records.

Judge Conn heard argument from counsel and has taken the matters under advisement. Judge Conn will rule by minute order and will also reset the Omnibus Hearing.

Whose medical records? Rule by minute order?
:shrug:

No pictures of Jeffs. Nothing written about Warren in court. Nothing about anyone being in court. No reporters? No photographers?

Hmmm

walton

05-16-2008, 09:08 PM

Originally posted by Roux
Thanks to everyone for posting the new links. I was one who was chastised by CW for posting on the links thread; I got carried away by a poster's comment and without thinking gave her an attaboy the other day.

Getting ready to watch 20/20 but I will definitely read some of the recently posted links. [/*]

It wasn't your fault Roux. I really don't believe that Coldwater would wipe out a thread link because one or two posters made a comment or two.

We've lost the links before but oddly most of them somehow come back here and there. :D ( I love the internet and Google)

KatyDid

05-16-2008, 09:21 PM

Originally posted by grammybear

I sure hope this judge does not drop the charges. If he does I think there is going to be a backlash. Also I did not know that in Arizona the law being that incest is only with people over 18. That does not make sense to me. I have always felt that incest was always with minors as well as adults, except that as adults people take responsibility for their actions and that is not the case with children.

jmoo [/*]

If I read it correctly, it has to do with how the law is written...some quirky language. The prosecution argued today it was nonsensical the way it is written. I read it earlier today. I will look for it again and post a link.

KatyDid

05-16-2008, 09:22 PM

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700226667,00.html

FLDS mother wins victory in court

SAN ANGELO, Texas — Pamela Jeffs Jessop's eyes sparkled and she smiled as she walked out of the courthouse Friday.
"I love to be with my children," she said meekly.

The 18-year-old has secured a few more rights over her newborn baby than other members of the Fundamentalist LDS Church have over their children, her attorneys said Friday.

Jessop was in court for a hearing over the custody of her baby boy, born April 29. It was to be an adversarial hearing, where Texas child welfare officials entered evidence of abuse and sought to retain sole custody of her baby.

KatyDid

05-16-2008, 09:31 PM

Originally posted by grammybear

I sure hope this judge does not drop the charges. If he does I think there is going to be a backlash. Also I did not know that in Arizona the law being that incest is only with people over 18. That does not make sense to me. I have always felt that incest was always with minors as well as adults, except that as adults people take responsibility for their actions and that is not the case with children.

jmoo [/*]

Arizona Revised Statutes §13-3608 Incest; classification
"Persons who are eighteen or more years of age and are within the degrees of consanguinity within which marriages are declared by law to be incestuous and void, who knowingly intermarry with each other, or who knowingly commit fornication or adultery with each other are guilty of a class 4 felony."

http://law.justia.com/arizona/codes/title13/03608.html

KatyDid

05-16-2008, 09:40 PM

ALTHOUGH~~check this out. Could be conflicting laws, IMO.

http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/8/00201.htm&Title=8&DocType=ARS

2. "Abuse" means the infliction or allowing of physical injury, impairment of bodily function or disfigurement or the infliction of or allowing another person to cause serious emotional damage as evidenced by severe anxiety, depression, withdrawal or untoward aggressive behavior and which emotional damage is diagnosed by a medical doctor or psychologist pursuant to section 8-821 and is caused by the acts or omissions of an individual having care, custody and control of a child. Abuse includes:

(a) Inflicting or allowing sexual abuse pursuant to section 13-1404, sexual conduct with a minor pursuant to section 13-1405, sexual assault pursuant to section 13-1406, molestation of a child pursuant to section 13-1410, commercial sexual exploitation of a minor pursuant to section 13-3552, sexual exploitation of a minor pursuant to section 13-3553, incest pursuant to section 13-3608 or child prostitution pursuant to section 13-3212.

KatyDid

05-16-2008, 09:47 PM

Originally posted by KatyDid

Arizona Revised Statutes §13-3608 Incest; classification
"Persons who are eighteen or more years of age and are within the degrees of consanguinity within which marriages are declared by law to be incestuous and void, who knowingly intermarry with each other, or who knowingly commit fornication or adultery with each other are guilty of a class 4 felony."

http://law.justia.com/arizona/codes/title13/03608.html [/*]

:o quoting myself, but:

what about the tail end of this statute~~
"...who knowingly intermarry with each other..."

I think this law deals with persons who are of AGE to marry. IMO

wandering

05-16-2008, 10:08 PM

walton

05-16-2008, 11:43 PM

Originally posted by wandering
Your post here made me lol! :biggrin: [/*]

I've come to terms with my obsession. :) Class on Tues.@1pm

It is crazy though. They fast forward the hearing date to do what? Wait for the decision? Messed up I tell ya.

Still no Warren. I wonder where they have Warren. I wonder why they aren't talking about Warren except for the same old recording push #3 when your done and we will repeat the message again type message.

Heard it once, twice I am not buying it.

What are they doing? Are those that are living in glass houses sweating it a bit? They should. They haven't even started the whole Welfare Fraud, tax evasion, and what ever else they have scene yet.

I'll keep watching and reading though.

walton

05-16-2008, 11:51 PM

So did you guys see 20/20?

John Q. should be doing more on tv.

The whole time I was watching I was thinking evalles should be sitting in the room with me. Hopefully she saw it and can better understand the whole thing.

I am so glad Texas did what they did. :patriot:

I got to see Sam Brower again. The guy makes me smile. He has a secret.

Yup, good show.

KatyDid

05-16-2008, 11:57 PM

Originally posted by walton
So did you guys see 20/20?

John Q. should be doing more on tv.

The whole time I was watching I was thinking evalles should be sitting in the room with me. Hopefully she saw it and can better understand the whole thing.

I am so glad Texas did what they did. :patriot:

I got to see Sam Brower again. The guy makes me smile. He has a secret.

Yup, good show. [/*]

I'm watching it now. Good coverage. JQ did a thorough and compassionate story. You can still feel Elissa's pain when she recalls the horror she felt.

walton

05-17-2008, 12:05 AM

Originally posted by KatyDid

I'm watching it now. Good coverage. JQ did a thorough and compassionate story. You can still feel Elissa's pain when she recalls the horror she felt. [/*]

Yeah I noticed it too. :(

No one should have to go thru that. No one.

KatyDid

05-17-2008, 12:08 AM

Originally posted by walton

Yeah I noticed it too. :(

No one should have to go thru that. No one. [/*]

I agree. I can't believe with all the documented abuse that LE and the government will not do the right thing by these poor kids.

I'm with you bud...here's to Texas :beer:

KatyDid

05-17-2008, 12:10 AM

Walton, I'm so glad you posted link to the information about the false IDs and stuff.

:seeya:

walton

05-17-2008, 12:19 AM

Originally posted by KatyDid
Walton, I'm so glad you posted link to the information about the false IDs and stuff.

:seeya: [/*]

Yup, you betcha. :) Want to thank you as well for bringing all those links over.

The whole thing with the false ID is something huh? What do you suppose Warren was doing messing with a group like that? Do you suppose they approaced Warren or do you think Warren sent Wee Willy over to them?

As far as the government not doing anything. I don't get it. Look what Texas could do and did. Utah did nothing. Arizona did nothing. FBI had been notified way long before this and did nothing. Other senators from other states were notified and did nothing.

Stood back and watched the numbers grow on a victims list. Sad and disgraceful.

TEXAS :patriot:

Carol25

05-17-2008, 01:49 AM

I've been away for a while, but I just watched CNN's spot on Texas may be losing their right to keep the children from the FLDS. They claim that some of the minors who they say were pregnant were not minors at all. But it was the girls who claimed they were minors, not the CPS. The girls said they were minors so they could stay with the children. Why should that jeopardize their case?

BTW, Warren was in court today and the reporter who saw him and Carolyn Jessop saw him said he looked healthy.

Court on Monday should be interesting.

Rainkiss

05-17-2008, 08:46 AM

I'm going through the letters written by the mental health workers, finding some interesting quotes...

(discussing one of the mothers whose children were being interviewed) Amazingly, none of the other mothers acknowledged her or came to comfort her. (My interpretation is that Aucrey has been trained not to feel her true feelings, and that the other women were afraid to be seen associating with someone whose children may have revealed secrets.)

Some of the supposedly underage mothers spoke to me, revealing that they were indeed over twenty but the judge had declared that they appeared younger so they also must stay. Some did indeed look very young, and I also thought they might be underage.

I did see some wonderful interactions with CPS and some of the children... One young man sat two hours, comforting a toddler after his mother was taken.

...most of my interactions with CPS workers were pleasant and enlightening... On a number of occasions, I saw CPS workers trying to build a healthily relationship with the children and mothers. Further more, if they felt it was better to have me intervene when a child needed the additionally mental health support, they called upon me in a positive manner.

Funny how none of that made it into the news, hm?

The workers talk about how the mothers, after having their cell phones removed, tried to manipulate the MH workers into giving them their phones back.

It's interesting to note that one of the writers discusses the "culture" of the FLDS... How can you discuss a culture when you've only known members of that culture for, at most, two weeks, and under a situation like this?

One last thing I noticed... Nearly all of the notes talk about being around when the mothers were sent away... Wasn't that just before the children were moved to other shelters? Could it be that they were "fired" because they were no longer needed because they simply weren't needed there any more? It makes sense that, if the children were beginning to be moved to other shelters, there wasn't going to be much need for the MH workers to stay.

Rainkiss

05-17-2008, 08:50 AM

Originally posted by Bratlings

They will never be able to satisfy what is asked of them, the requests are too ambiguous. [/*]

Seems pretty clear to me:

Among the things that parents in the polygamist sect would have to do to regain custody of their children:

•Provide a home free of abusive persons.

•Tell the state who's living on all floors of buildings they live in.

•Document their marriages and divorces.

•Attend parenting classes.

•Attend individual and family counseling sessions.

•Submit to DNA testing.

Source Link (http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/051508dntexpolygamist.ff72cc62.html)

If I come across the actual court filing, I'll post it, but I haven't found the actual documents online, yet.

KatyDid

05-17-2008, 09:54 AM

KatyDid

05-17-2008, 10:00 AM

Originally posted by walton

Yup, you betcha. :) Want to thank you as well for bringing all those links over.

The whole thing with the false ID is something huh? What do you suppose Warren was doing messing with a group like that? Do you suppose they approaced Warren or do you think Warren sent Wee Willy over to them?

As far as the government not doing anything. I don't get it. Look what Texas could do and did. Utah did nothing. Arizona did nothing. FBI had been notified way long before this and did nothing. Other senators from other states were notified and did nothing.

Stood back and watched the numbers grow on a victims list. Sad and disgraceful.

TEXAS :patriot: [/*]

IMO, Warren had his goonies seek out this group for false documents. Who needs who more? I say Jeffs needs this group more than they need him.

It is amazing to me that Shurtleff goes against his own written guidelines and state law regarding the protection of the women and children.

I have more links bookmarked on my other computer, but it isn't set up because of our house remodeling. Hopefully I can set it up this weekend and access my stockpile of information about FLDS and Jeffs.

KatyDid

05-17-2008, 10:06 AM

Originally posted by grammybear
That sure seems to be a backwards law in AZ. I hope the

jmoo [/*]

About Elissa, you can see the pain on her face and the hurt in her heart when she talks about her experience. On the other hand, she is very happy about her new life. They showed a photo of her with her husband and children. They look very happy together and her children are beautiful. Her husband appears to be a very loving and supportive person.

evalles

05-17-2008, 10:13 AM

Originally posted by Rainkiss

Seems pretty clear to me:

Source Link (http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/051508dntexpolygamist.ff72cc62.html)

If I come across the actual court filing, I'll post it, but I haven't found the actual documents online, yet. [/*]

It's too discretionary. Some think a spanking is abuse, some don't.
I met a couple, their parenting plan was being monitored by CPS. They said the worker held things against them for small things,like putting a child in time out for not following guidelines exactly. For example, they told me they put their 6 year old in time out for 10 minutes, the worker told them it could only be 6 minutes and wrote in her report that they lacked adequate or appropriate parenting skills.
A good attorney will make the state prove abuse before she allows the parents to sign a parenting plan. They can be seen as admissions of guilt and make it even harder to get the kids back.
Also, they want to keep the kids fot almost a YEAR. IMO, they shouldn't agree to this.

Rainkiss

05-17-2008, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by evalles

It's too discretionary. Some think a spanking is abuse, some don't.
I met a couple, their parenting plan was being monitored by CPS. They said the worker held things against them for small things,like putting a child in time out for not following guidelines exactly. For example, they told me they put their 6 year old in time out for 10 minutes, the worker told them it could only be 6 minutes and wrote in her report that they lacked adequate or appropriate parenting skills.
A good attorney will make the state prove abuse before she allows the parents to sign a parenting plan. They can be seen as admissions of guilt and make it even harder to get the kids back.
Also, they want to keep the kids fot almost a YEAR. IMO, they shouldn't agree to this. [/*]

Have you found the actual documents? I'm still looking, if you have, please post a link. Until I see the documents, it's tough to make a call on what's too discretionary. I'm reasonably sure the bullet points were listed by the author of the article, not on the actual CPS suggestions to the court.

However, it's good to see that CPS is doing their part by providing an outline to the court on what will be needed for the FLDS parents to do to claim their children. The DNA testing, first, to undo the damage they did to their own cases by confusing the issue of which children belong to which parents, and then ensuring the protection of the children in the future.

You're correct that the level of correction permitted for children is a concern, and should be further outlined, assuming it isn't already in the documents we haven't seen yet.

Where did you see they want to keep the children for almost a year? The only thing I see on a length of time is the deadline for the parents to meet the list of goals (until next April).

CPS is proposing to give parents until next April to “provide a home free of persons who have or will abuse” children and “demonstrate the ability to protect the child(ren) from sexual abuse.” The children will remain in state custody until a judge is satisfied that the parents have complied.

That's not "we're keeping them until April," that's "we're giving you close to a year to get your stuff together and provide a safe home for your children." If I'm reading it right, if, once everything is agreed to, a couple steps forward and says, "These three are ours, the DNA tests prove it. Here's our address, here's the list of who lives there, and here's the list of how we've met the rest of the conditions," they can take their children home once everything's checked out.

Carol25

05-17-2008, 05:21 PM

Does CPS or the court ever ask for psychiatric tests or intelligence tests to mothers (and fathers) to determine they have the mental capacity or are without mental disturbances before allowing them back into the home? That would seem important.

ETA: I can see that would be a problem in itself. What levels of intelligence or disturbances would be declared "unsuitable for parenting." That would be unconstitutional, but give us a good idea of what happens to people in this cult. So, this really can't be done.

xray ra

05-17-2008, 05:28 PM

Mimi428

05-17-2008, 10:01 PM

Originally posted by Bratlings

What does document a marriage mean? If they are already married spiritually how do they document that with the state? Would they be married in a courthouse with a license or does that mean just let CPS know?
[/*]

Since Texas has long recognized common law - or 'informal' marriage - it is very easy for a man & woman to establish to the state that they considered themselves to be married.

VERY easy.

State that you are married.
Present yourselves to others as married.
Live together.

As long as each party is eligible to enter into marriage, that is all that is required.

In order for the common law marriage to be valid, a few other things must apply -

In order to enter into a vaility marriage in Texas, whether ceremonial or common law, the parties must possess the requisite capacity to marry. In order to establish a valid marriage in Texas, the parties must:

1. Be a man and woman (Texas Family Code §2.001 and §2.401);

2. Not have been divorced within the past thirty days [Texas Family Code §2.002];

3. Not be presently married to a third party [Texas Family Code §2.002];

4. Be eighteen years of age [Texas Family Code §2.102[, unless the underage party has secured an order from the court granting permission to marry [Texas Family Code §2.103[, or has proof of parental consent [Texas Family Code §2.202]; and

5. Not be related as an ancestor or descendant, related by blood or adoption, nor be siblings by whole, half blood, or by adoption, nor may either be a parent, brother, or sister by whole or half blood, nor be the son or daughter of a brother or sister by whole or half blood [Texas Family Code §1.03 and §1.92]

http://jerrymelton.com/provingcommonlawmarriage.htm

withay

05-17-2008, 10:24 PM

Originally posted by Bratlings

They will never be able to satisfy what is asked of them, the requests are too ambiguous. [/*]
You are correct; as written, the case plans are too ambiguous and CPS would never be able to enforce them legally either.
I am a retired CPS worker and the case plans that they have listed are just general templates for the workers to start from. Each family will have their own plan written up with the specific details needed for them.
For instance: instead of "•Attend individual and family counseling sessions" It might say,
1) "Mother will attend counseling with Dr. Phil McGraw on Thursdays from 4pm to 5pm. If she is unable to attend she must notify Dr.Phil and reschedule within 24 hours.
2)Dad must attend counseling with Dr.Montel ...etc.
3) jr must attend ...etc

What they will be asked to do will be very[/*] specific with lots of details.

Mimi428

05-17-2008, 10:45 PM

Originally posted by Bratlings

No not very easy! They know most of these people are already legally married to one woman, how do they document the others without breaking the law? They cant. If they cant document another wife with 5 children then she will have to move out even though that is his children? Where will she go? All of that will be the basis right there for saying these people did not cooperate and should lose permanent custody of their children. [/*]

How can they not break the law when they have already broken the law? ? ?

They CAN'T.

A valid, bona fide common law marriage IS EASY to prove in this state. Texas has long, long recognized common law marriages begun in the state of Texas & any other state which recognizes common law marriage.

One man having multiple marriages to many women all at the same time isn't common law marriage by definition in the first place. It's illegal.

Pure, plain & simple.

If the FLDS men are legally caught up by the short hairs because their 2nd - thru 20th 'wives' will be unable to prove to the state that they had a bona fide common law marriage - well, that will sure be tough tanoonys, won't it?

JMO

xray ra

05-17-2008, 11:27 PM

If CPS ever took my kids from me because I did something questionable or was stupid enough to let someone live in my house that had questionable backgrounds, guess what!!!!
I would do WHATEVER they thought was a good parenting plan. If I thought it was "ambiguous" I would look up the definition and follow the instructions to the letter!!!
Any person who does not try to get their children back in accordance with the law has only themselves to blame.
JMO,IMO,ect.......:cool:

Rainkiss

05-18-2008, 08:39 AM

Originally posted by Bratlings

In a sense it is a broken law, like oral sex is against the law, and so many other ridiculous laws that are on the books for one crazy reason or another. They are also laws they do not usually prosecute for that reason! [/*]

That's true, there are "blue laws" on the books in many states which are not prosecuted.

I don't think Texas considers polygamy or sex with minors blue laws.

Yep, they're in a corner, having broken the law in the state of Texas (and quite possibly elsewhere), and are getting busted for it. If they want their children back, they're going to have to man up, confess to their crimes, and take what they deserve.

KatyDid

05-18-2008, 02:57 PM

The latest on tomorrow's hearings in Texas:

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_9295315

Hearings begin Monday
Attorneys want FLDS children treated as individuals in court
Texas officials claim sect supports systemic abuse

By Brooke Adams
The Salt Lake Tribune

Article Last Updated: 05/18/2008 12:32:13 AM MDT

The Jessop family in 2007. Left to right, Ziana, Joseph Sr., Joseph Edson, Lori, and Joseph Jr. The state of Texas has conceded Lori Jessop is an adult, and is allowing her to stay with her children, who are in the custody of Texas child welfare officials. PRNewsFoto (PRNewsFoto)Cases for seven children from one family, five from another and at least two fathered by polygamous sect leader Warren S. Jeffs are among those set for court Monday as the next phase begins in the largest child welfare action in United States history.

In all, attorneys for at least 35 children or their parents will converge on the Tom Green County Courthouse in San Angelo, Texas, for the first day of mandatory status hearings that continue through June 4.

KatyDid

05-18-2008, 03:45 PM

I am reading the list of the names of the kids removed from the Texas compound.

There are a numebr of children that appear to have been 'unclaimed' by a parent.

For example:

2812 IN THE INTEREST OF NAOMI (LAST NAME UNKNOWN) #26609432, A CHILD
2831 IN THE INTEREST OF MALE CHILD (NAME UNKNOWN), A CHILD
2833 IN THE INTEREST OF MARYANN (LAST NAME UNKNOWN) #26609422, A CHILD
2834 IN THE INTEREST OF MARYANN(LAST NAME UNKNOWN) #26609432, A CHILD
2835 IN THE INTEREST OF MATY (LAST NAME UNKNOWN), A CHILD
2838 IN THE INTEREST OF RULEN #26609402, A CHILD
2839 IN THE INTEREST OF RULON #26609387 (LAST NAME UKNOWN) A CHILD
2841 IN THE INTEREST OF RULON #26609432 (LAST NAME UNKNOWN) A CHILD

http://www.myeldorado.net/Pages/LegalNotices.html

ELDORADO SUCCESS
LEGAL NOTICES

Could any of these be fathered by Warren Jeffs?

KatyDid

05-18-2008, 05:14 PM

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz

I can't make heads or tails of that list. How did you distinguish the 'unclaimed' from the 'claimed' children? [/*]

It is what it appeared to me to be since some of the children have no last name. I just thought if they had been claimed, wouldn't they have their parent's last name? Wouldn't somebody know their last name?

It struck me odd, that's all. ;)

KatyDid

05-18-2008, 05:48 PM

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz

I wish I knew. :shrug:

It blows me away the lack of regular, every day information that is available for those people! My God - no last names or ages? No named parent(s)? No matter how many times I read about it, it still stuns me.

Imagine trying to get around out here in the 'real world' without an identity. Imagine not preparing your children to be able to state their name or age, or who their parents are. [/*]

That's what struck me about it. I think this is the list that is being used for the court appearances. If there were parent's, wouldn't they be going to court to claim these nameless children? I got the feeling nobody had come forward to say this is my child, this is the child's name, dob, etc. Wouldn't a mother at least do that?

:shrug: Me too GGW

KatyDid

05-18-2008, 07:04 PM

I am reading the Bishop's list again.

http://www.myeldorado.net/graphics/BishopsList.pdf

On page 37 it lists a wife as 'hiding'.
What the heck does that mean?
Why would she need to be 'hiding'?
What did she do?

Or does it mean this man PUT her in 'hiding'?
Was she sent away by this man?

:confused:

ETA: oh wait, on page 38 is also lists a wife and child at 'house of hiding'.

Katprint

05-18-2008, 08:10 PM

Originally posted by Carol25
Does CPS or the court ever ask for psychiatric tests or intelligence tests to mothers (and fathers) to determine they have the mental capacity or are without mental disturbances before allowing them back into the home? That would seem important.

ETA: I can see that would be a problem in itself. What levels of intelligence or disturbances would be declared "unsuitable for parenting." That would be unconstitutional, but give us a good idea of what happens to people in this cult. So, this really can't be done. [/*]
In California, I am personally aware of certain cases involving the CPS trying to take children away from parents who had Downs syndrome or other diminished mental capacity conditions. IIRC, in all or most of those cases, the children had not sustained any injuries but the CPS worried that perhaps they might in the future. Here's the problem: There is NO EVIDENCE proving that all mentally handicapped people are necessarily unable to adequately care for their children, particularly if they receive appropriate parenting education and training, assistance childproofing their homes, helpful monitoring to provide timely assistance when problems arise, etc. To the contrary, there is some evidence that mentally handicapped adults who have been taught rote self care tasks (such as making simple meals, brushing their teeth, etc.) are perfectly able to learn the necessary rote child care tasks (changing diapers, following their toddler around to make sure the toddler does not harm themself, etc.) and that they may not run out of patience as quickly as "smarter" parents thus creating less risk for intentional abuse.

This issue has also come up with regard to blind, deaf, paraplegic and otherwise physically handicapped people. It turns out that people are individuals; some can handle the challenge and some cannot - just like "regular" parents.

Katprint
Always only my own opinions

KatyDid

05-18-2008, 08:26 PM

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz

I suspect many more 'houses of hiding' have come into existence since just about the day after the raid on the compound.

You can bet yer sweet bippy that if the FLDS'ers had known that Bishop's list was going to be published, there would've been some SERIOUS lying for the Lord all OVER that document. Or even more likely, it would've never been compiled in the first place. [/*]

I've been googling like mad to try to find out what purpose two young wives and a very young child would be placed in a 'house of hiding'. I understand Jeffs using these places when he was on the run, and now possibly the men who ran from the Texas compound.

But why these young women?

So far, I have found nothing about these places as they relate to hiding women or children.

xray ra

05-18-2008, 11:15 PM

After reading more of the links, I hope that Texas has the good sense to call some of these "lost boys" to testify about abuse of being separated from their families at young ages. Even though these young men are in their late teens or early twenties now, they have alot of inside information.
And the lawyers for the FDLS would have to subpoena the older men to dispute the young men's testimony.
Likely, the older men would not show, and the young men's testimony would stand uncontested by any other eyewitness testimony!!:D

KatyDid

05-18-2008, 11:29 PM

walton

05-19-2008, 01:37 AM

Originally posted by xray ra
After reading more of the links, I hope that Texas has the good sense to call some of these "lost boys" to testify about abuse of being separated from their families at young ages. Even though these young men are in their late teens or early twenties now, they have alot of inside information.
And the lawyers for the FDLS would have to subpoena the older men to dispute the young men's testimony.
Likely, the older men would not show, and the young men's testimony would stand uncontested by any other eyewitness testimony!!:D [/*]

xray I checked your link upstairs and the reason it won't work is because this board apparently thinks the captial * is bad. lol
too funny.

But I found and read the article you were talking about and it is a good read. Thanks.

I agree with your above post as well. For so very long the voices of the victims have been left unheard or worse yet heard and ignored.

If you listen to some of the people that were involved in the ShortCreek Raid in 1953 they talk about how awful it was, how they were harmed being taken away from their families and yet they chose the very same path for their own.

History repeating itself. Over and over again. jmo

Carol25

05-19-2008, 01:48 AM

I wish this would be televised. This country should be shown what these cults are about. The country should wake up! :(

Hi Guys! :seeya:

xray ra

05-19-2008, 01:59 AM

Hey Walton: :seeya:

We have come so far as a society since 1953, ie: no one in 2008 would stand for separate water fountains or separate bus seating, ect. I hope that our 2008 society would not accept child abuse and substandard treatment of women as was common in 1953 in Short Creek.

I was so shocked when I heard that SLC news was reporting that 100 children had no biologic mothers at the ranch!

What?? Earlier I was thinking that maybe 10% would be the number. or 46 children but twice that many.??

My,my, Now the cries of "we just want THE children back", really makes me want to barf

And how many children that were not abused were removed?
<sarcasm>GMAB

xray ra

05-19-2008, 02:05 AM

Originally posted by Carol25
I wish this would be televised. This country should be shown what these cults are about. The country should wake up! :(

Hi Guys! :seeya: [/*]

Hi Carol, Maybe there will a court blogger to at least give us an idea of what evidence is being presented!!:)

xray ra

05-19-2008, 02:10 AM

Hi Grammybear:)

It may be (just for the sake of argument), that there are still some DNA tests not completed yet!
I remember that sometimes those tests take along time. Not like CSI.
I wonder if they have to match more elleals(sp) when they are dealing with so many cousin offspring?:shrug:

walton

05-19-2008, 07:25 AM

Originally posted by xray ra
Hey Walton: :seeya:

We have come so far as a society since 1953, ie: no one in 2008 would stand for separate water fountains or separate bus seating, ect. I hope that our 2008 society would not accept child abuse and substandard treatment of women as was common in 1953 in Short Creek.

I was so shocked when I heard that SLC news was reporting that 100 children had no biologic mothers at the ranch!

What?? Earlier I was thinking that maybe 10% would be the number. or 46 children but twice that many.??

My,my, Now the cries of "we just want THE children back", really makes me want to barf

And how many children that were not abused were removed?
<sarcasm>GMAB [/*]

For those of us living outside 4 walls and amongst society we have come a long way.

I heard that these hearings could take weeks. Which I would assume that during this time more DNA results will surface. jmo

I wouldn't expect there to be live tv coverage of this because it does involve minors. But I am expecting reporters to be there telling all.

But then again... reporters were at the Jeffs hearing in Arizona and not all was told. They tell us what they can.

I'll never understand the whole hush hush thing from Utah and Arizona courts. Just leaves room for speculation.

walton

05-19-2008, 07:29 AM

Originally posted by xray ra

Hi Carol, Maybe there will a court blogger to at least give us an idea of what evidence is being presented!!:) [/*]

Remember Katie and Jordy? :) Now that was cool.

Rainkiss

05-19-2008, 07:32 AM

What I read was that there were 100 children not yet matched to a mother, and that the DNA results weren't back yet... So, that's 100 children whose mothers haven't stepped forward to claim them.

Shameful, and tragic. I wonder how many of those are teenage girls who were sent from other compounds to be married off so young.

walton

05-19-2008, 07:47 AM

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3333895

These families are comprised of at least 168 mothers and 69 fathers, reflecting the polygamy in the FLDS sect. And even as the hearings begin, the state hasn't matched more than 100 of the children with mothers. The first of court-ordered DNA test results won't be back for two to four weeks.

These numbers can't be right can they?

Rainkiss

05-19-2008, 07:51 AM

Originally posted by walton
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3333895

These families are comprised of at least 168 mothers and 69 fathers, reflecting the polygamy in the FLDS sect. And even as the hearings begin, the state hasn't matched more than 100 of the children with mothers. The first of court-ordered DNA test results won't be back for two to four weeks.

These numbers can't be right can they? [/*]

Which numbers? If anything, I'm thinking that's too many mothers... They tend to have a LOT of children. That's an average of two or three children per mother, which strikes me as very low for the culture.

I wonder who's going to attend the court sessions for the "unmatched" children. Any bets on Willie Jessop?

Carol25

05-19-2008, 08:25 AM

This compound might be the melting pot from the other compounds. Wasn't there talk that only the prime candidates were taken to this compound? So some of the children of these mothers may be at the other places and some of the parents of these children are still elsewhere.

They won't give any mothers children until DNA tests are back, I would think. I would guess they have been busy making birth certificates for the last month.

walton

05-19-2008, 08:28 AM

Originally posted by Rainkiss

Which numbers? If anything, I'm thinking that's too many mothers... They tend to have a LOT of children. That's an average of two or three children per mother, which strikes me as very low for the culture.

I wonder who's going to attend the court sessions for the "unmatched" children. Any bets on Willie Jessop? [/*]

Exactly. Too many mothers.

walton

05-19-2008, 08:30 AM

Originally posted by Carol25
**snipped**

They won't give any mothers children until DNA tests are back, I would think. I would guess they have been busy making birth certificates for the last month. [/*]

I do wonder what the good Doctor has been doing.

walton

05-19-2008, 08:33 AM

In one of the links on the link thread about Wendell Musser, Wendell thought Warren had about 180 wives.

I wonder how many kids?

Carol25

05-19-2008, 08:42 AM

Originally posted by walton
In one of the links on the link thread about Wendell Musser, Wendell thought Warren had about 180 wives.

I wonder how many kids? [/*]
Walton, did you ever find out what reporter was in the courtroom with Jeffs the other day?

KatyDid

05-19-2008, 08:43 AM

Originally posted by walton
In one of the links on the link thread about Wendell Musser, Wendell thought Warren had about 180 wives.

I wonder how many kids? [/*]

Good Morning EV1:seeya:

I read yesterday that some of the children being represented in court today are believed to be children of Warren.

So, there are children who aren't matched up. I thought so when I was looking at the list of children yesterday. There are many children without last names. I posted I thought that was odd. I wondered why they would have no last name IF a parent had come forward and tried to claim the child.

Carol25

05-19-2008, 08:46 AM

Originally posted by KatyDid

Good Morning EV1:seeya:

I read yesterday that some of the children being represented in court today are believed to be children of Warren.

So, there are children who aren't matched up. I thought so when I was looking at the list of children yesterday. There are many children without last names. I posted I thought that was odd. I wondered why they would have no last name IF a parent had come forward and tried to claim the child. [/*]
That makes sense. Mornin!:seeya:

Carol25

05-19-2008, 08:49 AM

Will there be any live links today?

KatyDid

05-19-2008, 09:18 AM

Originally posted by Carol25
Will there be any live links today? [/*]

No live links that I have found so far. gosanangelo.com will have live updates on their website.

Coverage: See regular courtroom updates throughout the day at gosanangelo.com.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/may/19/city-readying-for-sect-hearings/

Rainkiss

05-19-2008, 09:56 AM

I don't imagine any of these will be aired live, to protect the privacy of the children.

evalles

05-19-2008, 10:54 AM

Originally posted by Carol25
I wish this would be televised. This country should be shown what these cults are about. The country should wake up! :(

Hi Guys! :seeya: [/*]

I wish it would be televised also. This country should be shown that no real proof needs to be presented to take children away from their parents and then force them to "comply" with the state's every demand.

That would definitely wake this country up. :tongue:

KatyDid

05-19-2008, 10:56 AM

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz
From a link that lotty (I believe it was lotty) posted in the links thread. The story is from two years ago - May 2006 - reported in the LA Times:

[/*]

And there are some that see this as an acceptable lifestyle for children.

:rolleyes:

Go figure...

It has been going on, and has been documented since the inception of the plural wives vision J Smith had in the 1800s.

KatyDid

05-19-2008, 11:06 AM

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz
More from the LA Times link:

He served one day less than the number of counts of sexual abuse he was charged with. Sexual abuse of his own daughters.

IIRC, one of the FLDS supporters here on these threads also said that Elissa Walls "looked happy" in her wedding pictures. [/*]

I thought Elissa Wall looked terrified in her wedding photos. Bless her heart, her poor face is red and swollen from her crying, and they weren't tears of joy.

I am sick and disgusted at the evil that has been allowed to fester in Utah and Arizona as it relates to the abuse these women have endured.

They turned these women back to the church that perpetrated the abuse. How many of these women actually ended up back with their 'husbands'? I'm willing to bet the majority were put in 'a house of hiding' and never seen again.

Ladyhawk

05-19-2008, 11:11 AM

I heard the entire interview but can't find a link for it....this is a portion of the interview. The mother is one of the two that recently gave birth. I must be getting old because she looks and sounds so very young to me. amoo

It's in the latest video section, on page 4, titled "judges set to decide fate of..."

http://www.kxan.com/

KatyDid

05-19-2008, 11:23 AM

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz
Continuing from the 5/06 LA Times article:

A four year-old girl. Wonder if she was wearing a wedding dress at the time of her molestation.

And the FLDS-run clinic apparently refused to record the actual cause of the child's injuries. [/*]

'Earlier, an FLDS-run clinic had claimed his daughter's injuries came from a playground accident.'

The molestation happened on the playground :rolleyes:

A lying bunch of pedophiles, even the so called doctor.
When is America going to wake up?
Actually, when is UTAH and ARIZONA going to wake up and start screaming bloody murder about this travesty.

KatyDid

05-19-2008, 11:31 AM

From the court proceedings this morning:

http://gosanangelo.com/news/2008/may/19/breaking-news-cps-says-girl-who-called-in-yfz-be/

BREAKING NEWS: CPS says girl who called in YFZ Ranch complaint and baby can't be found

The massive child custody hearings in the polygamist sect's YFZ Ranch case began with a shock this morning as state Child Protective Services representatives told a judge that they believe one of the children scheduled for hearing this morning does not exist and that the child's mother of record, Sarah Jessop, could not be located.

Sarah Jessop is the name given by the person who telephoned a San Angelo domestic violence shelter in March, filing the original complaint that triggered an April raid and the removal of more than 460 children from the Schleicher County 1,700-acre compound.

State 119th District Judge Ben Woodward was told at the opening of proceedings in Courtroom A that the child listed as Baby Jessop, whose parents were shown as Sarah Jessop and Dale Evans Barlow, is not a real person.

evalles

05-19-2008, 11:32 AM

Originally posted by KatyDid

I thought Elissa Wall looked terrified in her wedding photos. Bless her heart, her poor face is red and swollen from her crying, and they weren't tears of joy.

I am sick and disgusted at the evil that has been allowed to fester in Utah and Arizona as it relates to the abuse these women have endured.

They turned these women back to the church that perpetrated the abuse. How many of these women actually ended up back with their 'husbands'? I'm willing to bet the majority were put in 'a house of hiding' and never seen again. [/*]

Originally posted by grammybear

I've looked at the pictures, I don't see terror. Especially pics 17 & 18. She's smiling in all of them.

http://www.childbrides.org/Black_Binder.pdf

evalles

05-19-2008, 11:39 AM

Originally posted by KatyDid
From the court proceedings this morning:

http://gosanangelo.com/news/2008/may/19/breaking-news-cps-says-girl-who-called-in-yfz-be/

BREAKING NEWS: CPS says girl who called in YFZ Ranch complaint and baby can't be found

The massive child custody hearings in the polygamist sect's YFZ Ranch case began with a shock this morning as state Child Protective Services representatives told a judge that they believe one of the children scheduled for hearing this morning does not exist and that the child's mother of record, Sarah Jessop, could not be located.

Sarah Jessop is the name given by the person who telephoned a San Angelo domestic violence shelter in March, filing the original complaint that triggered an April raid and the removal of more than 460 children from the Schleicher County 1,700-acre compound.

State 119th District Judge Ben Woodward was told at the opening of proceedings in Courtroom A that the child listed as Baby Jessop, whose parents were shown as Sarah Jessop and Dale Evans Barlow, is not a real person. [/*]

They arranged a court date for a non-existant family ?
I hope the judges do the right thing and send these kids home.

KatyDid

05-19-2008, 12:17 PM

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz
Katydid: thanks for the court update link. I've been refreshing a page at gosanangelo.com but haven't seen anything new posted. I must be on the wrong page or sumthin.

I LOL'd at the reported 'shock' about the missing Sarah Jessop and child. She's never been found by LE - how did they expect her to show up in court?

GMAB. If there really is a Sarah Jessop, she is long, long gone by now compliments of the FLDS - and my bet is that she's NOT at a 'house of hiding.'

If she doesn't exist, then my hat is off to whoever made the 'hoax' phone call and set in motion the rescue of the children. [/*]

YW :seeya:

We knew the missing Sara would be addressed since the call was made by RSwinton. LOL!

I'm with you about the call...whether it was a hoax or not, it set in motion something that needed to be done for over 100 years.

KatyDid

05-19-2008, 12:44 PM

An update on the court proceedings Courts A, * & C:

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/may/19/breaking-news-cps-says-girl-who-called-in-yfz-be/

LIVE FROM THE COURTHOUSE: Coverage of polygamist sect 60-day hearings

KatyDid

05-19-2008, 01:17 PM

Originally posted by Lyndawitha"Y

I just heard a talking head on JF TruTV that for the government of removing these children from their home is so traumatic..yiks..my first thought was..well, this sect does the same thing by transporting children from state to state...compound to compound ..mothers to mothers....and yes even country to country..away from their biological parents and sibblings..how traumatic is that???? And I didn't even mention the fact of transfering young girls to service older men to procreate (Go Yea Forth and multiply)..

Then I heard the FLDS lawyer expouse no proof of abuse..I would like to know HIS definition of abuse..It seems clear to me that the whole flock of sheep have been systematically abused for generations and those poor souls just don't know better..It is really very hard to accept such archaic lifestyle in a free world!

LMS:( [/*]

There you go Lynda~~you hit the nail on the head. :beer:

Is it any different~~no it is not.
At least these kids have a fighting chance now.

These kids get reassigned within their so-called religious group all the time.

On the Bishop's List it is interesting to note how many of the 'husband's' wives and children live in other parts of the US and some even 'in hiding'. Whatever that means.

I read that Neilson's family in Utah didn't even know he had a family in Texas. :cuss:

Roux

05-19-2008, 01:40 PM

I was reading a few of the comments posted under the gosangelo article. It is amazing and appalling the thoughts and attitudes of some of those people.

It is a wonderment to me that so many seem to have first hand knowledge/experience with CPS. I am an aging baby boomer, one child, two grandchildren, have lived in Al, Fla, Ga, CT and Tx and have NEVER had any contact with CPS, nor have I ever known anyone who has. I must not travel in the right circles.

evalles

05-19-2008, 02:15 PM

Originally posted by Roux
I was reading a few of the comments posted under the gosangelo article. It is amazing and appalling the thoughts and attitudes of some of those people.

It is a wonderment to me that so many seem to have first hand knowledge/experience with CPS. I am an aging baby boomer, one child, two grandchildren, have lived in Al, Fla, Ga, CT and Tx and have NEVER had any contact with CPS, nor have I ever known anyone who has. I must not travel in the right circles. [/*]

I managed to get through 16 years without any experience w/ CPS. You're right about being in the right circle. When I moved from Kansas to be closer to family, my circle changed. I purposely stayed away from this circle of trouble makers, but as I got older and matured, I assumed the people in this circle had also and I wanted to re-establish family relations for my children.

The kind of circle capable of calling the "hotline" out of anger or jealousy. The members of this circle, themselves had a history w/ CPS and misery loves company. Add in a spoiled, strong-willed teen and a money hungry family member that knows you make enough $$ to warrant a $600 month child support payment and promises your kid a life with fewer rules and restrictions and voila' your teenager who was actually the aggressor becomes the victim.

Anonymous calls are very easy to make. I should have stayed away from the circle.
The person my daughter stayed with continued to receive food stamps for my daughter for almost a year after she left.

As a matter of fact, there's a public link, on a court case involving my sister and her husband (this is who the placed my daughter with)
IN THE COURT OF APPEALS OF TENNESSEE AT NASHVILLE
http://www.tsc.state.tn.us/OPINIONS/tca/PDF/024/LilesDR.pdf

Just to let you know, neither my husband or I have criminal records or previous history with CPS. They did.

lotty

05-19-2008, 02:28 PM

JMO/IMO What does this mean? Was she first married to WJ then to Allen Keate? Or was she first married to Allen Keate and now WJ?

"8:43 a.m. - The first and only witness this morning in courtroom * was called to the stand. A CPS worker said it has come to her attention that Jeffs' eight children have been placed in different sites, and the agency is working to get the family back together. Some had childhood illnesses, especially her one-and-a-half-year-old son. None of the illnesses was serious or required long-term care, the witness said.

The CPS worker said she sent the service plan to Wylie but has not met face to face with Jeffs because the mother of eight has been busy traveling across the state to see her children. No one has spoken to Allan Keate, the man identified as the children's father."
LIVE FROM THE COURTHOUSE: Coverage of polygamist sect 60-day hearings
STAFF REPORT

Originally published 10:00 a.m., May 19, 2008
Updated 12:46 p.m., May 19, 2008
http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/may/19/breaking-news-cps-says-girl-who-called-in-yfz-be/

Charity

05-19-2008, 03:07 PM

Originally posted by evalles

<snip>

As a matter of fact, there's a public link, on a court case involving my sister and her husband (this is who the placed my daughter with)
IN THE COURT OF APPEALS OF TENNESSEE AT NASHVILLE
http://www.tsc.state.tn.us/OPINIONS/tca/PDF/024/LilesDR.pdf

Just to let you know, neither my husband or I have criminal records or previous history with CPS. They did. [/*]

Geeza, Louisa! I can see why you'd be upset -- not just because your daughter was removed, but because they placed her in the household of that lowlife guy. Unbelievable that those folks passed the sniff test to take in a child. Unreal! Again, so sorry your family was put through that horrible ordeal.

Having said that, I am glad that the court, in the case you referenced, did not want to leave the guy's daughter with those two. Even though no physical abuse had yet happened, there was found to be a risk of potential harm to her...even including the guy's wife (your sister?) having way too tolerant an attitude towards the dangers existing in that environment.

The court did the right thing in that case, much like Texas removing the children from biological parents in this case while determining suitability to parent. Sometimes, when there's a pattern of abuse or a dangerous environment lending itself to harm or abuse (as in the case you cited and as in the FLDS case), it's better to remove the child at least until it's determined if the child is safe, and permanently if it's determined they won't be safe.

I still can't get over that your daughter was placed with those people! You must have been LIVID -- I sure would have been!
:rose:

Roux

05-19-2008, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz
Here's another update:

http://gosanangelo.com/news/2008/may/19/breaking-news-cps-says-girl-who-called-in-yfz-be/

Correct me if I'm wrong, but so far this morning, no baby daddies have shown their faces in court.

Nice of the FLDS'ers to supply the children with some Warren Jeffs tapes to pass the time while they're in state custody. [/*]

I saw that about the Jeffs tape but didn't understand the connection. That is the ultimate in sick, IMO. No lullaby for little ones, no Bible stories for the older ones but the rantings of a deranged. convicted pedophile. If the judge and CPS allows those mind-control tapes of Jeffs to be played for children, how can those FLDS defenders say that the authorities are not bending over backwards to accommodate them? Oh, I know---they didn't provide pre-1978 Book of Mormon.

xray ra

05-19-2008, 03:31 PM

I thought that in some states that CONVICTED pedophiles could not have ANY contact with children.??

Would that include the CONVICTED pedophile actually talking to them via tape recordings?
:cuss:

IMO it is irresponsible for LE to allow such contact. Physical or by any other means, telephone, internet, DVD, or tape recordings of the CONVICTED pedohpiles voice. hammer

Roux

05-19-2008, 03:43 PM

Re the cases of Dan Barlow Jr. (13 days in jail for molesting his 5 daughters) and Joshua Johnson (30 days for molesting 4 yr old) that GollyGee posted from the LA Times link up thread, wouldn't they have to be registered as sex offenders? So few of the men seem to be prosecuted for sex crimes, but those that have been convicted should be registered shouldn't they? Utah and AZ seem to be so lax with FLDS maybe they let it slide.

evalles

05-19-2008, 03:48 PM

Originally posted by Charity

Geeza, Louisa! I can see why you'd be upset -- not just because your daughter was removed, but because they placed her in the household of that lowlife guy. Unbelievable that those folks passed the sniff test to take in a child. Unreal! Again, so sorry your family was put through that horrible ordeal.

Having said that, I am glad that the court, in the case you referenced, did not want to leave the guy's daughter with those two. Even though no physical abuse had yet happened, there was found to be a risk of potential harm to her...even including the guy's wife (your sister?) having way too tolerant an attitude towards the dangers existing in that environment.

The court did the right thing in that case, much like Texas removing the children from biological parents in this case while determining suitability to parent. Sometimes, when there's a pattern of abuse or a dangerous environment lending itself to harm or abuse (as in the case you cited and as in the FLDS case), it's better to remove the child at least until it's determined if the child is safe, and permanently if it's determined they won't be safe.

I still can't get over that your daughter was placed with those people! You must have been LIVID -- I sure would have been!
:rose: [/*]

They managed to pass the sniff test because the worker didn't do the state mandated background check. Didn't even check her own county's on-line criminal database which had tons of charges, including assaults and even a drive-by shooting by one of the family members she supposedly checked out. They continue to say that a background check was done and nothing was found, but don't mention that she only checked city records in a city they didn't live in. They tried to get them licensed but the couldn't because the director (who wasn't at their office) refused to sign off on licensure. She said she had personally overseen a case involving them and had major concerns over any child being placed in their custody. They tried to get them licensed, which would have allowed them to care for other children, despite the fact that I provided them with the criminal records and the case you just read. They sent it to the emergency legal dept who told them to not go into detail about it in court(I have the docs) I didn't know this until almost the end, when I requested their file.
I made the CPS worker mad enough (by challenging her) that she was willing to put a child in that home. The entire local office covered it up also. The first court date, I gave the attorney that represented my daughter's interests over 20 charges against them, she overheard me trying to tell the CPS worker's supervisor and actually asked me for the casenet print-outs. She was taken off the case and I never saw her again. It would be funny now, if it hadn't cost me so much time.

KatyDid

05-19-2008, 03:57 PM

Originally posted by xray ra
I thought that in some states that CONVICTED pedophiles could not have ANY contact with children.??

Would that include the CONVICTED pedophile actually talking to them via tape recordings?
:cuss:

IMO it is irresponsible for LE to allow such contact. Physical or by any other means, telephone, internet, DVD, or tape recordings of the CONVICTED pedohpiles voice. hammer [/*]

Makes ya wonder if the judge actually listened to the tapes. I think the judge should know absolutely what ALL the 'teachings' on tapes are before agreeing to let the children be further brainwashed.

:cuss:

KatyDid

05-19-2008, 04:15 PM

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz

Let's all give a standing 'O' to the CASA worker who raised her concerns about those tapes to the judge this morning.

:patriot: [/*]

:beer: ^5

xray ra

05-19-2008, 04:22 PM

OK, now I'm confussed:

"Barlow was the only person in the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints case for whom an arrest warrant was issued, and authorities, although they have spoken to Barlow and know his whereabouts, have not moved to arrest him."
from the gosanangelo news website.

I would think that if an arrest were made it would inhance the State's position of child endangerment???

:shrug:

I am glad that Judge has decided to "review" the tapes before allowing them to be given to the children's caregivers. :patriot:

Roux

05-19-2008, 04:29 PM

Originally posted by xray ra
OK, now I'm confussed:

"Barlow was the only person in the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints case for whom an arrest warrant was issued, and authorities, although they have spoken to Barlow and know his whereabouts, have not moved to arrest him."
from the gosanangelo news website.

I would think that if an arrest were made it would inhance the State's position of child endangerment???

:shrug:

I am glad that Judge has decided to "review" the tapes before allowing them to be given to the children's caregivers. :patriot: [/*]

I thought the fly in the ointment regarding Barlow was the fact that he was not in Eldorado and had not been in Eldorado. That was one of the sticking points that the FLDS defenders glommed onto, reinforcing their stance that the entire incident was based upon a hoax.

KatyDid

05-19-2008, 04:51 PM

Originally posted by xray ra
OK, now I'm confussed:

"Barlow was the only person in the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints case for whom an arrest warrant was issued, and authorities, although they have spoken to Barlow and know his whereabouts, have not moved to arrest him."
from the gosanangelo news website.

I would think that if an arrest were made it would inhance the State's position of child endangerment???

:shrug:

I am glad that Judge has decided to "review" the tapes before allowing them to be given to the children's caregivers. :patriot: [/*]

No charges were brought against Barlow in this case due to the original phone call that named him possibly being a hoax.

He is a convicted sex offender though.

Barlow received a jail sentence last year after pleading no contest to conspiracy to commit sexual conduct with a minor. A judge ordered him to register as a sex offender for three years while on probation.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080406/search_poly_080407

KatyDid

05-19-2008, 04:58 PM

WOW!! wonder how these will turn out:

"Parents will be given a psychiatric evaluation, and children will be given school assessments."

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/may/19/breaking-news-cps-says-girl-who-called-in-yfz-be/

Details

05-19-2008, 05:41 PM

Originally posted by evalles
These pictures were evidence for the prosecution at the Jeff's trial.
Elissa Wall wasn't crying in these photos and she didn't look scared. [/*]Holy cow - she doesn't look scared to you? I see her miserable. She's so stiff, look at page 7 and 8, where her new 'hubby' is hugging her to him - look at that tensed shoulder, eyes looking away, lips stretched into something that isn't even a smile. He's loving it - she's hating it. Even on the ones with a bit more smile on the mouth - it never reaches the eyes - a face has a different look with a real smile, than a fake one. http://ezinearticles.com/?Smile,-Really-Smile,-Its-Good-for-Health-and-Good-for-Business&id=197930

It's sad - she looks just like my sister at that age - hair color, facial features - could be her. She sure looks like she was crying - there are bags under her eyes - puffy bags - sure sign, from my experience.

Body language is interesting too. She's as far from him as she can be. He's hugging her shoulder to him - but her hips and legs are further away. He's leaning into her - her head is upright or even leaned away from him, not into him. Page 25 - he's kissing her - her hand is inbetween them, not around him.

For the difference between a real and a fake smile - look at almost the end, when he's not in the picture, and she's holding a doll or something. That's real joy there. The rest is the cameraman telling her to smile.

Carol25

05-19-2008, 05:54 PM

Latest report coming up on Fox

evalles

05-19-2008, 05:55 PM

The body language in some of the pictures is indicative of her age and likely embarassment at the public display.
I don't think she should have been married at 14 or to her first cousin which is just gross. But she wasn't crying and actually looked happy in some.

Ladyhawk

05-19-2008, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by KatyDid
WOW!! wonder how these will turn out:

"Parents will be given a psychiatric evaluation, and children will be given school assessments."

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/may/19/breaking-news-cps-says-girl-who-called-in-yfz-be/ [/*]

I would really like to see a psychiatric evaluation of someone who believes so strongly that God speaks to the prophet therefore whatever the prophet commands are commands from God and must be obeyed.

KatyDid

05-19-2008, 06:00 PM

Originally posted by Ladyhawk

I would really like to see a psychiatric evaluation of someone who believes so strongly that God speaks to the prophet therefore whatever the prophet commands are commands from God and must be obeyed. [/*]

Me too!!

KatyDid

05-19-2008, 06:01 PM

Originally posted by Carol25
Latest report coming up on Fox [/*]

Thanks Carol :beer:

Carol25

05-19-2008, 06:02 PM

Well, they didn't say much. You guys can give more information than they did, lol.
They did say this will last three weeks.

evalles

05-19-2008, 06:26 PM

Originally posted by grammybear
Thank you for the apology. [/*]

No problem. I really don't know how I did it. I was thinkin' maybe it was a cut and paste gone wrong, but I don't know.
I am sorry.

Ladyhawk

05-19-2008, 06:35 PM

Remember Rulon & Lorene Keates?

Here they are in a Today show interview 5-12 saying the question (underage marriage) doesn't apply to him because they have all boys.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/24575095#24577612

Here's a Dateline interview.....same couple....talking about their DAUGHTER who is very attached to her mother.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwKbz_l3kTE

Lying for the Lord or an honest mistake?.....you decide.

moo

KatyDid

05-19-2008, 06:57 PM

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/may/19/breaking-news-cps-says-girl-who-called-in-yfz-be/

STAFF REPORT

Originally published 10:00 a.m., May 19, 2008
Updated 05:46 p.m., May 19, 2008

The sect custody cases have adjourned for the day. As further information becomes available Tuesday, gosanangelo.com will update this story with live coverage at the Tom Green County Courthouse.

Courtroom * - Matt Phinney

Another service plan was approved in Courtroom * today, and one case was delayed to gather more information on the child.

Kathleen Steed signed a family service plan regarding her daughter. The plan also will go into effect for her other 11 children whose cases were scheduled to be held this week. Judge Tom Gossett of the 391st District Court ruled that the service plan will encompass all the children so Steed will not have to come back to court.

Attorneys for Steed said her children are scattered statewide and wanted them to be put at one location, a notion that Gossett agreed with much like he did in this morning's case.

And just like he did this morning, Gossett said the ultimate goal is to reunite families, but he said custody could be restricted or terminated if the family does not work to meet the goals in the service plan.

He also said the father, identified as Leroy Steed, needs to work on the plan. A CPS worker testifying this afternoon said she is not the main case worker for Kathleen Steed and said that person was in court for another case today.

The witness said she has been told that Leroy Steed cannot be reached to serve notice to appear in court.

However, every reasonable avenue has been made to reach him, she said.

Attorneys for Kathleen Steed were granted a break to talk with CPS workers about amendments she wanted added to the service plan for consideration. After a 30-minute break, Gossett said Kathleen Steed would sign the service plan, but that she doesn't "agree with allegations in the service plan."

She also wrote her "hopes and dreams" for the children, which was added to the service plan.

Gossett asked whether Kathleen Steed read the service plan and she said yes. Then he asked whether she understood the service plan.

"Yes," she said softly, "but it's very broad."

"I just asked if you understood it," he said.

He also said her progress under the plan will be reviewed.

The children must continue to be educated, Gossett said, and the children need to be put together, but said it could take time to move children from various shelters.

Gossett said the service plan was appropriate, and the case was adjourned.

Charity

05-19-2008, 07:11 PM

Originally posted by Ladyhawk
Remember Rulon & Lorene Keates?

Here they are in a Today show interview 5-12 saying the question (underage marriage) doesn't apply to him because they have all boys.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/24575095#24577612

Here's a Dateline interview.....same couple....talking about their DAUGHTER who is very attached to her mother.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwKbz_l3kTE

Lying for the Lord or an honest mistake?.....you decide.

moo [/*]

Well, if that doesn't take the cake! Now we can see with our own eyes the type of subterfuge these people engage in, all the while wearing their pious woe-are-we, the unfairly persecuted, faces and expecting everyone to buy their BSing lies.

No wonder CPS has had such a tough time straightening out parentage and other issues! Great catch, Ladyhawk!

KatyDid

05-19-2008, 07:23 PM

KatyDid

05-19-2008, 07:38 PM

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz
So the day ends with not one baby daddy in sight. :chicken:

You know, I think it's nice of the state of Texas to promise to get siblings into the same foster care facilities, but I think they could be biting off more than they can chew.

These sibling groups are HUGE in some cases, so logistically it could be a nightmare to try to keep them together. But I also wonder how much influence the older sibs have over the younger children, and whether they might not try to take it upon themselves to continue the brainwashing that Jeffs and their parents started.

The mention of the Warren Jeffs tapes by the CASA worker got me thinking. I guess it makes some sort of twisted sense that the FLDS mothers would want to continue scaring the carp out of the kids with all Jeffs rantings, even while they're in state custody. Probably especially while they're in state custody.

If I ruled the world :D I'd be giving the youngsters a nice long break from all things Jeffs-related. [/*]

From the Bishop's List:

Leroy Steed, mentioned in court today as absent is 40 y/o, has 8 wives, one of which is listed as 16 y/o. He lists 27 children on the Bishop's List.

I can't imagine why he didn't feel safe showing his face in court, or why they haven't been able to locate him to serve him. :D

ETA: methinks 'ol Leroy won't be showing his face for some time now.

I wonder how many of these men are in hiding at one of the Colorado compounds.

KatyDid

05-19-2008, 07:48 PM

Originally posted by grammybear
I totally agree about the brainwashing. I also think putting all of the siblings together will be a great undertaking. I had not thought about the older children continuing the abusing and brainwashing of the younger ones. Of course these older children have had years of the brainwashing and would stand to carry on. I sure hope the judes rule against the children having to listen to those tapes.

It is not surprising that the fathers are not there. They know that if they have to give DNA their goose is cooked. I have no doubt that there is more lying going around by this group and I suspect that this group is not going to be very happy with the outcome.

With what the FLDS are known to practice in their culture, I think it will be given a very hard second and third look into these children going back to the compound.

I also read earlier today about this group buying property in Colorado. I sure hope they are looking into the possibility of this group moving there and what kind of ramifications it will be to their date. The laws need to change to protect all children involved.

jmoo [/*]

I live in Colorado grammy. I write the governor's office frequently. I'm sure they are watching these compounds going up and waiting for somebody to make a mistake.

FLDS has chosen land in super-low populated areas. The most recent land purchase is in an area with a population of 800 people. It appears they pick areas where they think the local sheriff will look the other way.

I think I am going to write another letter. :tongue:

Details

05-19-2008, 07:48 PM

KatyDid

05-19-2008, 07:51 PM

Originally posted by Details
I'm looking forward to the school assessments. [/*]

Ah, me too. According to Elissa Wall and others, their education consists mostly of how to serve the prophet.

KatyDid

05-19-2008, 08:03 PM

NOW
Nancy Grace covering the court house events from today.

CNN Headline News

ETA: I guess it is coming up soon.

KatyDid

05-19-2008, 08:08 PM

Originally posted by Soldiermom08

The lady on the left (they sat in same places for both interviews)
said her daughter was 23 but CPS said she was 16. She said her daughter has a valid drivers license and birth certificate. Then in the next breath she says she offered CPS workers her own drivers license and said "I will vouch for her.". Why would she show HER drivers license in an effort to prove her daughters age, if her daughter had a valid drivers license and birth certificate of her own? I think thats another lie caught, personally.

all JMO

:seeya: [/*]

And she probably still hasn't provided the identification to prove her age.

Looks like lying for the lord is an everyday occurrence. I've been wondering how they believe each other...they are such astute liars.

Cat2007

05-19-2008, 08:11 PM

Originally posted by KatyDid

And she probably still hasn't provided the identification to prove her age.

Looks like lying for the lord is an everyday occurrence. I've been wondering how they believe each other...they are such astute liars. [/*]

It said in the book, "Under the Banner of Heaven," that Brigham Young used to brag about what good liars they were.

On the NBC news, I saw one father with the wife. Unfortunately, I did not catch the name. He said they were going to do whatever they have to to get the children back.

KatyDid

05-19-2008, 08:13 PM

Originally posted by Cat2007

It said in the book, "Under the Banner of Heaven," that Brigham Young used to brag about what good liars they were.

On the NBC news, I saw one father with the wife. Unfortunately, I did not catch the name. He said they were going to do whatever they have to to get the children back. [/*]

:punch: what a nice thing to brag about...especially from a spiritual leader.

Can they be lame enough to think lying will get their children retruned?

KatyDid

05-19-2008, 08:14 PM

Originally posted by Soldiermom08

This is strictly JMO but wouldn't you have to pretty much be lying to yourself every day in order to live the lifestyle both women and men alike were living in the FLDS? jmo [/*]

Ummmm, yeppers, you would.

Good point!

Cat2007

05-19-2008, 08:18 PM

Originally posted by KatyDid

:punch: what a nice thing to brag about...especially from a spiritual leader.

Can they be lame enough to think lying will get their children retruned? [/*]

I thought so too, but that was nothing to their murdering and framing people.

I want to take this opportunity to thank you, Katy, Grammy, Details, and all the others posting links and information about this. I read you every day. :)

KatyDid

05-19-2008, 08:24 PM

Originally posted by Soldiermom08

I'm sure their prophets have changed those 10 commandments to the 8 Suggestions..... [/*]

:lol:

Cat2007

05-19-2008, 08:24 PM

Originally posted by Lyndawitha"Y
[/*]

I'm doing great, Lynda. I hope you are, too. We have a real dud of a trial going right now. No one wants to listen--La Barre. Doctor has been on stand 3 days, and they play tapes we can't understand. Oh, well.

KatyDid

05-19-2008, 08:29 PM

Originally posted by Cat2007

I thought so too, but that was nothing to their murdering and framing people.

I want to take this opportunity to thank you, Katy, Grammy, Details, and all the others posting links and information about this. I read you every day. :) [/*]

I've been reading about John D Lee. The murdering and framing go back to BY's time.

KatyDid

05-19-2008, 08:32 PM

Originally posted by Cat2007

I'm doing great, Lynda. I hope you are, too. We have a real dud of a trial going right now. No one wants to listen--La Barre. Doctor has been on stand 3 days, and they play tapes we can't understand. Oh, well. [/*]

I've been hooked on this case since Jeffs trial. I tried watching some of the other stuff going on, but I am hooked on this 'crime'.

Oh, on Nancy Grace now, she is covering today's court house appearances.

Cat2007

05-19-2008, 08:43 PM

Originally posted by KatyDid

I've been reading about John D Lee. The murdering and framing go back to BY's time. [/*]

Yes, Katy, Lee is prominently covered in this book, too. It is fascinating, but horrifying. I only got this book because the library didn't have the ones I actually wanted (seems everyone is interested in FLDS now). I'm glad I did, because it certainly covers a lot of things, including the murder of a young mother and her tiny daughter. Like I said, HORRIFYING.

Cat2007

05-19-2008, 08:44 PM

Originally posted by Soldiermom08

Didn't the lying START with Brigham Young?
Any society with plans to flourish under such conditions would have to be built on a bedrock of lies. And they do it in the name of religion, and we allow it. :shrug: [/*]

It started with Joseph Smith (and his golden tablets) if you ask me.

KatyDid

05-19-2008, 08:45 PM

On NG 100 polygamy children not matched to moms!

KatyDid

05-19-2008, 08:47 PM

Originally posted by Cat2007

Yes, Katy, Lee is prominently covered in this book, too. It is fascinating, but horrifying. I only got this book because the library didn't have the ones I actually wanted (seems everyone is interested in FLDS now). I'm glad I did, because it certainly covers a lot of things, including the murder of a young mother and her tiny daughter. Like I said, HORRIFYING. [/*]

What book is it Cat? I must have missed an earlier post by you.

I've been reading online about him, for reasons I can't discuss on the board.

KatyDid

05-19-2008, 08:49 PM

:eek: Texas is going to Utah and Arizona to find the missing mothers and fathers and WILL file charges against them.

TH on NG was just saying he aksed LE today about that.

Cat2007

05-19-2008, 08:49 PM

Originally posted by KatyDid

What book is it Cat? I must have missed an earlier post by you.

I've been reading online about him, for reasons I can't discuss on the board. [/*]

UNDER THE BANNER OF HEAVEN, by Jon Krakauer. It is excellent.

KatyDid

05-19-2008, 08:51 PM

Originally posted by Cat2007

UNDER THE BANNER OF HEAVEN, by Jon Krakauer. It is excellent. [/*]

Thank you! I have been seeing that one referenced on the board here. I have quite a list of book to get next time I am at the book store.

KatyDid

05-19-2008, 08:55 PM

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz

Hey ... did you hear Flora Jessop say that the mothers need to be charged right along with the fathers for allowing the abuse to occur - and for helping to groom the young girls and teenagers for their futures as 'celestial brides' and brood mares?

Dang tootin. :patriot: [/*]

Oh shoot, no I missed it...DH just came home.

ITA!! Maybe that is the wake up call they need. Flora knows first hand just how much these women KNOW about right and wrong.

Cat2007

05-19-2008, 08:55 PM

Go, Flora!!!!

KatyDid

05-19-2008, 08:59 PM

Originally posted by Soldiermom08

You go girl- Flora also said that the kids are taken from the moms at 1 yr of age and raised by others- their "caretakers". If thats true, no wonder they can't identify their own kids. They have no idea who they are!! Yikes, this is getting weirder and weirder.

jmo [/*]

That is very disturbing to hear. These women really are only for breeding. :mad:

KatyDid

05-19-2008, 09:03 PM

Larry King on CNN is covering the story now. Willie Jessop is speaking now.

Cat2007

05-19-2008, 09:04 PM

But Rod Serling's "Twilight Zone" was excellent. Many of those episodes still hold up today (black and white or not). MO

KatyDid

05-19-2008, 09:05 PM

:rolleyes: Willie Jessop is saying the actions of child abuse are from only a few.

YEAH RIGHT!!

Maybe Willie doesn't realize all those sermons by Jeffs are saved on tapes.

KatyDid

05-19-2008, 09:07 PM

Elissa Wall on with Larry King now.

Details

05-19-2008, 09:29 PM

Originally posted by KatyDid
:rolleyes: Willie Jessop is saying the actions of child abuse are from only a few.

YEAH RIGHT!!

Maybe Willie doesn't realize all those sermons by Jeffs are saved on tapes. [/*]Even Willie can't claim they're innocent. Only that it's "only a few".

KatyDid

05-19-2008, 09:33 PM

Originally posted by Details
Even Willie can't claim they're innocent. Only that it's "only a few". [/*]

:beer: HA!!! You got that right Details!

Carol25

05-19-2008, 09:45 PM

The mothers that are being interviewed appear to be thirty and above. Have there been any younger mothers claiming their children? I was wondering if a mother say 20 y/o, asking for her children ages 1, 3 and 5?

evalles

05-19-2008, 10:09 PM

Originally posted by Details
Even Willie can't claim they're innocent. Only that it's "only a few". [/*]

As in any other community.

walton

05-19-2008, 11:16 PM

Originally posted by Carol25

Walton, did you ever find out what reporter was in the courtroom with Jeffs the other day? [/*]

No. :shrug:

I hadn't seen anything written about anyone actually being inside the courtroom. Very general. Very NON descriptive.jmo

KatyDid

05-19-2008, 11:30 PM

Originally posted by Soldiermom08

They aren't crying hysterically for their children, they aren't saying how empty life is without them, they all chant the same mantra- We need our children. We need to have our children back. Also no mention of loving the kids. No mom or dad looking into the camera and saying "Luke! Virginia!! We love you and are doing everything we can to get you back!" or words to that effect.... [/*]

You know, you are right Soldiermom! It's as if they've been given a script and all it says is we need our children. Why is that?

I just have a sneaking suspicion that once these children are returned, they will be GONE...out of Texas and in one of those 'houses of hiding'. I became more suspicious when one of Warren Jeffs' 'wives' said she would follow the plan but not sign it.

Courtroom E - Rick Smith

"One of Warren Jeffs' "wives" agreed to sign a plan developed by the state's Child Protective Services agency that could eventually reunite her with two of her children, while another of Jeffs' wives said she would follow the plan but would not sign it."

I feel like they will say and do anything, tell any lie at this point to get the children and run. I believe they already know where they are to relocate once they have the children.

I am equally disturbed that over 100 of the children have never been claimed by a parent. What does that say about these people. Children are a commodity, something that can be tossed away? They love themselves more than their children.

:(

LLaFren

05-20-2008, 05:58 AM

Morning all, going to read what I've missed the past couple of days (dang work).

:seeya:

spageddy

05-20-2008, 06:17 AM

I only caught the end of NG myself, and yes-my understanding was that there were kids who didn't match up with any moms. Maybe they are children of the moms who didn't give dna? Maybe they are kids from Utah or another colony. In my opinion, these people are playing games to confuse the authorities. IN MY OPINION I don't think ANY of those women are moms to the children. They are birthing machines, and the kids belong to the cult or the prophet .The children are property- game pieces in this big twisted flds-land game. The previous posters are right. These women are not grieving for their children. They're playing a role to get the "chips' back. How awful. JMO

Rainkiss

05-20-2008, 06:22 AM

Originally posted by asurvivor
I caught the end of nancy grace. Did she say 100 of the kids are not the kids of the moms? [/*]

They haven't figured out who the mothers are for around 100 of the children. I'm wondering what percentage of those are girls from the age of 12-17, myself.

Chances are the DNA will sort some of those out, maybe they're older children who would prove that mothers had them when they were underage. Others are probably from other compounds whose parents may not even know where they are.

Rainkiss

05-20-2008, 08:06 AM

Originally posted by grammybear
Yes I think they always have an alternative plan if things do not go the way they want. I worry that all these adults will just leave and forget about all these children that have been taken into custody.
I hope you are right about Texas not allowing that to happen.

jmoo [/*]

There's not much they can do if they don't have them arrested and in custody. If they decide the children are lost for good, there's not much keeping them from disappearing. I expect we'll see a few dedicated sets of parents keep fighting, but the rest will just quietly disappear and have more children.

Has anyone heard if the DNA reports are complete? Last I heard they were still working on matching things up.

Rainkiss

05-20-2008, 08:08 AM

Originally posted by grammybear
I had heard reports of no dna link to mothers a couple of days ago. It sure raises a lot more questions to me about what is going on at this compound. I am sure we are going to hear more and more as time goes on with the court hearings.

It is a sad situation to think that these children may not be raised by their own mothers. Pretty scary stuff to think about if you ask me.

jmoo [/*]

It is scary... I believe the DNA tests aren't complete yet, and they'll probably raise more questions than they answer. Of course, we'll be hearing the FLDS claim they're not accurate, if they start uncovering incest and underage mothers.

KatyDid

05-20-2008, 09:10 AM

Originally posted by Rainkiss

There's not much they can do if they don't have them arrested and in custody. If they decide the children are lost for good, there's not much keeping them from disappearing. I expect we'll see a few dedicated sets of parents keep fighting, but the rest will just quietly disappear and have more children.

Has anyone heard if the DNA reports are complete? Last I heard they were still working on matching things up. [/*]

I read yesterday that the dna results are still 2-3 weeks away from being complete.

KatyDid

05-20-2008, 09:14 AM

Originally posted by asurvivor
I caught the end of nancy grace. Did she say 100 of the kids are not the kids of the moms? [/*]

On the list provded in the court affidavits, there are many children listed with no last name, or with no name at all, just as a child.

It is very sad so many children are sacrificed so these cowardly men and women can continue to practice the evil this cult professes.

KatyDid

05-20-2008, 09:38 AM

:confused: Hey, what's going on? I tried to post on this thread and it was closed, so tried to post on the new daily and now it is gone. Now this thread is open agan.

Roux

05-20-2008, 10:00 AM

It would probably be a difficult proposition to get a conviction, but if the FLDS could be charged under RICO for their various financial illegal activities, maybe their properties could be confiscated -- like LE takes boats, cars, money, etc. from drug dealers. If they had no large coffers to fund their lifestyle it might put a significant burden on them and break up some of their groups.

No doubt it would be a huge undertaking and the fact that they live commune-style would give them lots of wiggle room as to specifically which individuals are/were engaged in the illegal activities.

Devotion

05-20-2008, 10:16 AM

Originally posted by Ladyhawk
Remember Rulon & Lorene Keates?

Here they are in a Today show interview 5-12 saying the question (underage marriage) doesn't apply to him because they have all BOYS.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/24575095#24577612

Here's a Dateline interview.....same couple....talking about their DAUGHTER who is very attached to her mother.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwKbz_l3kTE

Lying for the Lord or an honest mistake?.....you decide.

moo [/*]

WOW.....What a bunch of BS...
They still think we're all stupid and fall for anything they say.
This is PROOF the males and females are LYING, LYING, LYING.

Here the same COUPLE is on the Today show interview 5-12, saying the question (underage marriage) doesn't apply to him,
because THEY HAVE ALL BOYS!

Here's a Dateline interview.....with the SAME COUPLE....
talking about their DAUGHTER who is very attached to her mother.....Hmmmmm!

IMO..the truth isn't IN these people, they have been born and bred to LIE FOR THE LORD....just saying what ever it takes to get their "virgins" and "worker bee's back", to satisfy the old men and their bank accounts...jmo

Devotion

05-20-2008, 10:30 AM

Originally posted by xray ra
Hey Walton: :seeya:

We have come so far as a society since 1953, ie: no one in 2008 would stand for separate water fountains or separate bus seating, ect. I hope that our 2008 society would not accept child abuse and substandard treatment of women as was common in 1953 in Short Creek.

I was so shocked when I heard that SLC news was reporting that 100 CHILDREN had no biologic mothers at the ranch!

What?? Earlier I was thinking that maybe 10% would be the number or 46 children but twice that many.??

My, my, Now the cries of "we just want THE children back", really makes me want to barf...

And how many children that were not abused were removed?
<sarcasm>GMAB [/*]....

One HUNDRED children with NO biological mothers answers some of our questions.....
What are the Laws on transporting children across state lines for immoral purposes and slavery?

We need OUR children back, so Texas will not know they "DO NOT" belong to us.

We need our children back so we will make it to heaven?
This answers why there is NO mothers bonding, or love being shown from most of these cold, empty adults.....jmo

lotty

05-20-2008, 10:44 AM

Originally posted by Devotion
....

One HUNDRED children with NO biological mothers answers some of our questions.....
What are the Laws on transporting children across state lines for immoral purposes and slavery?

We need OUR children back, so Texas will not know they "DO NOT" belong to us.

We need our children back so we will make it to heaven?
This answers why there is NO mothers bonding, or love being shown from most of these cold, empty adults.....jmo [/*]

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title9/crm02027.htm
2027 Mann Act

Charity

05-20-2008, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by Devotion

WOW.....What a bunch of BS...
They still think we're all stupid and fall for anything they say.
This is PROOF the males and females are LYING, LYING, LYING.

Here the same COUPLE is on the Today show interview 5-12, saying the question (underage marriage) doesn't apply to him,
because THEY HAVE ALL BOYS!

Here's a Dateline interview.....with the SAME COUPLE....
talking about their DAUGHTER who is very attached to her mother.....Hmmmmm!

IMO..the truth isn't IN these people, they have been born and bred to LIE FOR THE LORD....just saying what ever it takes to get their "virgins" and "worker bee's back", to satisfy the old men and their bank accounts...jmo [/*]

Doesn't that just knock your socks off? I could believe it when I looked at those videos yesterday. Did they really think they could get away with that? They're willing to say absolutely anything to try to garner public sympathy, to promote the party line of "persecuted solely for our religion," and to avoid answering even the simplest of questions when truthful answers conflict with the cult agenda.

I wish Ann Curry would have them back on and then spring the two video clips on them -- and without their minder (Willie) or spokesman (Parker) present, so that they are forced to answer for themselves.

I highly doubt, though, that these people would be allowed to give an interview without one of their "smart" guys available to answer for the "simpletons". Wonder if they realize that's how they come across when there's always a minder present to monitor what they say?

This is what CPS has had to deal with -- brazen, devious liars who will say anything to suit their agenda, people who will look you right in the eye with the most pitiful, humble, honest-looking expression and lie through their teeth! I would say "IMO," but I think those clips speak for themselves.

I hope someone has made CPS aware of this and that when this couple's time in court comes up, the judge is made aware of their blatant lying and how promoting the party line of persecution is more important to them than the welfare and return of their children.

I really think for the FLDS organization as a whole, this is more about testing the law and attempting a media campaign to show how their poor cult is just persecuted all to heck for their religion than it is about caring for their kids. If they win this round, they will be emboldened and the cult abuse will escalate, IMO.

Roux

05-20-2008, 12:14 PM

After reading about two of the young mothers hearings yesterday, I went back to review their names in the Bishops List (KatyDid posted on page 3 of this thread). Merilyn Barlow wouldn't name her son's father but CPS believes him to be Allan Keate. In the list dtd 3/25/07 Merilyn is shown as 17 and a wife of Allan, 54. There are two infants, listed only as "baby boy" under 6 mos old under Keate's family unit. Either of these could be Marilyn's child who is now 1-1/2.

Sarah Cathleen Jessop who says her child's father is Luke Jeffs Neilsen is listed as 16 in 2007, but now she is 18. Guess depending on her exact birthdate that could happen but not likely.

KatyDid

05-20-2008, 12:21 PM

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/may/20/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-the-polygamist/

LIVE FROM THE COURTHOUSE: Day 2 of the polygamist sect's 60-day hearings
Staff Report

Originally published 10:44 a.m., May 20, 2008
Updated 10:44 a.m., May 20, 2008

Courtroom * - Rick Smith

"Service plans were approved for two young siblings by 391st District Judge Tom Gossett this morning. A 3-year-old boy and his 1-year-old sister are living in a child-care facility in San Antonio.

The children's parents, Josephine Johnson and Joseph Johnson, were at today's hearing."

At least one father showed up to speak for his children. Neither of these people are listed on the Bishop's Record.

KatyDid

05-20-2008, 12:47 PM

I will try this again. This is the post I tried to post earlier, but got bumped from the original daily to the new daily, then back to this daily. ARRGH!

Early Show transcript with video of the interview:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/05/20/national/main4109983.shtml

On the Early Show this morning Willie Jessop appeared with Edward (Edmund) and Dora Mae. On the show, the name Edward was used, but these people look to be the ages of Edmund and Dora listed on the Bishop’s Record, and they have 6 children in state custody. Here is the rest of the story.

From the Bishop’s Record, page 25, here are some facts about Edmund/Edward and Dora Mae.

Edmund is 48 y/o
Dora Mae is 42 y/o

Edmund has 8 wives, only 2 are located at the Texas compound, Dora Mae and Jane.

Edmund and Dora Mae have a total of 11 children, 5 are located in Hildale, 6 in Texas.

The 6 children in Texas are the youngest of the 11, ranging in age from 5 mo to 10 y/o. Of the 5 children in Hildale, 2 are girls aged 13 and 15 y/o.

Edmund has one child with Jane, a 9 mo daughter. Jane is listed as 22 y/o.

In total, Edmund has 36 children, the majority of those children located at the Hildale compound.

Now why isn’t Edmund/Edward coming forward to be at the court house to claim his children and offer up a DNA test?

Where were Edmund/Edward and Dora Mae when they gave the interview?

KatyDid

05-20-2008, 01:08 PM

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz
Hi Katydid :seeya:

To try to answer your question ... unless I'm missing something, off the top of my head I'd say Edm/Edw isn't offering up DNA because he has fathered children with an underaged girl - someone in Short Creek most likely.

I hope someone thinks to ask some of these parents who are so desperate to get the children back ... these parents who are so taxed by having to drive all over the state to see the children ... how it is they live day-to-day without the children they've left behind in Utah/Colo and other places. [/*]

Hiya GGW :seeya:

I was wondering why 'the other children' are not being considered in these parents parenting skills. Since the children in other locations are not in Texas' custody, can their care and location be part of the arguments? I truly hope so!!

KatyDid

05-20-2008, 01:20 PM

On CNN Headline, brief interview with James Jessop and his wife Sarah. James made an appearance at the court house with wife Sarah.

From the Bishop's Record:
James is 31 y/o
Sarah is 31 y/o

James has 2 other wives aged 23 and 21

Total # of children listed for James is 7 ranging in age from 4 mo to 8 y.

All are listed as living at the Texas compound.

Where are James' other wives during the interview?

This practice of plural wives is so righteous to them, why not stand up for your religious beliefs?

Mimi428

05-20-2008, 01:24 PM

Rainkiss

05-20-2008, 01:24 PM

Originally posted by KatyDid
On CNN Headline, brief interview with James Jessop and his wife Sarah. James made an appearance at the court house with wife Sarah.

From the Bishop's Record:
James is 31 y/o
Sarah is 31 y/o

James has 2 other wives aged 23 and 21

Total # of children listed for James is 7 ranging in age from 4 mo to 8 y.

All are listed as living at the Texas compound.

Where are James' other wives during the interview?

This practice of plural wives is so righteous to them, why not stand up for your religious beliefs? [/*]

Because if he stands up in a court of law and says he's married to all three, he's prosecuted as a polygamist. And, he loses a LOT of sympathy from folks who might feel bad that this poor couple lost their children, when they realize they aren't really a couple, they're just part of the "family." And, if he takes the fifth and declines to testify, he loses all of the children.

It's a heck of a position to be stuck in.

KatyDid

05-20-2008, 01:27 PM

Latest update from the court house:

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/may/20/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-the-polygamist/

LIVE FROM THE COURTHOUSE: Day 2 of the polygamist sect's 60-day hearings
Staff report

Originally published 10:44 a.m., May 20, 2008
Updated 12:16 p.m., May 20, 2008

Courtoom C - Matt Phinney

"Warren Jeffs' younger brother said today he is ready to work with Child Protective Services to get his children back while attorneys for his family hammered away at the family service plan.

Seth Steed Jeffs and his wife, Kathyrn Jeffs, this morning were in Courtroom C, where 51st District Judge Barbara Walther is presiding. Attorneys for the family blasted the service plan as too vague and said it does not specify what the family needs to do to get the children back."

Anybody believe Warren Jeffs' brother will follow the CPS plan? :no:

KatyDid

05-20-2008, 01:28 PM

Originally posted by Rainkiss

Because if he stands up in a court of law and says he's married to all three, he's prosecuted as a polygamist. And, he loses a LOT of sympathy from folks who might feel bad that this poor couple lost their children, when they realize they aren't really a couple, they're just part of the "family." And, if he takes the fifth and declines to testify, he loses all of the children.

It's a heck of a position to be stuck in. [/*]

It's a heck of a position he put himself in because of his choices.

Wonder if that causes any jealousy amongst the 'wives'.

Roux

05-20-2008, 01:32 PM

Something that really got me, from Court Room E, when the CPS worker said no pictures, etc of Warren Jeffs, attorney Duncan asked "Why?" Is she serious?

Roux

05-20-2008, 01:36 PM

And Janet Nielsen says Wendell Nielsen can't be located because he travels a lot! He's the one with, I think, 21 wives recorded in the Bishops List. It's not funny but I did chuckle.

Charity

05-20-2008, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by Mimi428

I think you hit the nail on the head with your comment about the truth not actually being IN the members of the FLDS. The influence put upon them from birth, inside their essentially closed & tightly controlled lives has produced a group of folks who are apparently capable of lying with impunity.

My fear is that this willingness to boldly lie - saying you have a daughter in one instance, then claiming you have only sons in another - is an indicator of how little regard they ultimately have for the children, compared to their prophet.

I wish one of the reporters would set up another interview with this couple & show them the clips of the two statements - so we can get an inkling of how they intend to explain away their completely contradictory stories regarding the gender of their children. [/*]

I actually sent this info to CPS via their website, directing them to Ladyhawk's post and links -- hope it makes it to whomever it should. They might already be aware of it, and in the grand scheme of things, might be only a tiny thing compared to some other stuff; but at the very least, the judge who handles this particular couple's case needs to see what they're capable of and what their mindset is.

I would love to see the media confront those two with their totally contradictory statements. Flat-out lies, actually -- they can't both be true. Wonder if FLDS has someone monitoring boards to gauge public support/disapproval. Even with a heads-up, though, can't imagine how they could possibly wiggle out of that one!
Very sharp of Ladyhawk to have caught that! :beer:

Mimi428

05-20-2008, 01:46 PM

Originally posted by Roux
Something that really got me, from Court Room E, when the CPS worker said no pictures, etc of Warren Jeffs, attorney Duncan asked "Why?" Is she serious? [/*]

I wondered about that, too.

When it comes to an attorney's comprehension I don't think there is much to ponder about why the state does not want the children exposed to pictures & teachings of a convicted pedophile. If the FLDS members have a problem with it, THAT I can understand (not agree with, but understand). They don't believe anything their prophet does is wrong - after all, according to him, anything that crosses his lips is directly from God.

But the attorney certainly knows better. Perhaps she is simply interested in having her objection stated on the record.

JMO

KatyDid

05-20-2008, 01:48 PM

Originally posted by Roux
And Janet Nielsen says Wendell Nielsen can't be located because he travels a lot! He's the one with, I think, 21 wives recorded in the Bishops List. It's not funny but I did chuckle. [/*]

I was just looking at Nielson's name and list of wives on the Bishop's list. Guess what, there is no Janet listed as a wife living at the compound. She says she has a 15 y/o son.

There are 21 wives listed at the Texas compound for Nilson. No 15 y/o son listed. Since the list is a year old, the closest in age is a 13 y/o boy.

KatyDid

05-20-2008, 01:49 PM

KatyDid

05-20-2008, 01:56 PM

Just reading at gosanangelo.com how 'willing' the cult members are to sork with CPS to get their children back.

I have a gut feeling there is another plan in place. No way these people are going to follow CPS instructions. They are playing the game right now. I betcha they have a huge underground plan in the works.

They are too willing to do whatever, without much argument. They believe if they go along with everything, don't make waves, they will get the children back faster. Then, they are outta Texas.

Roux

05-20-2008, 01:57 PM

Originally posted by KatyDid

I was just looking at Nielson's name and list of wives on the Bishop's list. Guess what, there is no Janet listed as a wife living at the compound. She says she has a 15 y/o son.

There are 21 wives listed at the Texas compound for Nilson. No 15 y/o son listed. Since the list is a year old, the closest in age is a 13 y/o boy. [/*]

discrepance on the Dockstaders too. On MSNBC with Ann Curry they said they had 7 children and 5 were in custody. On their page there are 5 children listed ranging in age from 20 to 8. The 20 and 17 yr olds would not be in custody, so where are the other 2 children?

And I didn't see Lorene and Rulon listed -- I want to see what the list said about their children since they had lied about the daughter.

Charity

05-20-2008, 01:59 PM

Originally posted by KatyDid

Um, oh I don't know, because he is a convicted felon?
I can't believe the attorney asked why... [/*]

I can! They will try to use everything they possibly can in making their record to prove (or at least imply) that this is persecution based on religious belief, that individual rights are being trampled, etc. Besides, attorneys just love to argue, period, especially when it's over anything approaching an individual right to worship, as misguided or dunder-headed as the worship may be.

Now, anyone with half a brain would understand why it's not a good thing to allow kids to worship someone such as Jeffs and would do all in their power NOT to expose them to the man or his teachings. But even half a brain seems hard to come by in that cult! :shrug:

IMO, of course.

KatyDid

05-20-2008, 02:00 PM

Rainkiss

05-20-2008, 02:01 PM

Roux

05-20-2008, 02:05 PM

I dread it when evalles sees where the child Joshua has a medical condition that his CPS worker didn't know about. Nevermind that the mother/mother's attorney, child's attorney should have made this known.

They are all acting like they've had no communication, don't know what's going on. I can't believe that if it was any of us, we would have been ringing the phone and knocking on doors to provide complete information. Supposedly they've been traveling all over the state of Texas to visit their children, but who was it yesterday that didn't get to wish her child or children happy birthday?

Charity

05-20-2008, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by Rainkiss

I don't know if we've seen all of the pages of the Bishop's List... Could be they moved to the compound after the list was made, too.

Yeah, I'd want to know where the other children are for those who've got minors who don't live with them. [/*]

Rain, do you think we're gonna learn that a number of kids have at some point have been reassigned either away from those at YFZ or to them from other divisions of FLDS?

I am anxious to hear whether the unclaimed kids are unclaimed because of cowardly parents who are afraid of being prosecuted or because they really don't biologically belong to anyone there. Either way, it's heartbreaking.

Charity

05-20-2008, 02:10 PM

Originally posted by Roux
I dread it when evalles sees where the child Joshua has a medical condition that his CPS worker didn't know about. Nevermind that the mother/mother's attorney, child's attorney should have made this known.

They are all acting like they've had no communication, don't know what's going on. I can't believe that if it was any of us, we would have been ringing the phone and knocking on doors to provide complete information. Supposedly they've been traveling all over the state of Texas to visit their children, but who was it yesterday that didn't get to wish her child or children happy birthday? [/*]

I hope evalles will seriously consider those videos, too -- I believe with all my heart that this type of thing is what CPS has been up against since day one and that is WHY there is uncertainty and confusion about some of the kids.

I do understand where she's coming from, given the hell she was put through, but this is so different on so many levels. I can't think of any better way it could have been done.

KatyDid

05-20-2008, 02:24 PM

The latest update:

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/may/20/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-the-polygamist/

LIVE FROM THE COURTHOUSE: Day 2 of the polygamist sect's 60-day hearings
Staff report

Originally published 10:44 a.m., May 20, 2008
Updated 01:16 p.m., May 20, 2008

Courtroom A - Jayna Boyle

"Child Protective Services attorney Gary Banks said this morning that CPS is working with authorities in Arizona to obtain a DNA sample from Warren Jeffs, the imprisoned prophet/leader of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Two hearings in Courtroom A in the Tom Green County Courthouse today focused on alleged children of Warren Steve Jeffs."

I thought they would have already put in the request for Warren's DNA at the same time they requested all the other 'father's' DNA.

:shrug:

KatyDid

05-20-2008, 02:36 PM

Maybe this is the kicker with these parents, because I'm not sure how they will score on a psych evaluation. Even more surprising that the FLDS parents would agree to submit to the evaluation.

"CPS presented service plans that were much the same as other plans developed for FLDS families - they outline goals that parents can strive for to get their children back. The plans included psychiatric assessments, educational assessments of children and the need to get a steady income to support the children."

KatyDid

05-20-2008, 02:39 PM

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/may/20/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-the-polygamist/

Courtroom D - Jennifer Rios

An excommunicated member of the FLDS living in Utah apart from his family said he would move to Texas if that's what it would take to get his children back.

Arthur L. Barlow testified today in 340th District Judge Jay Weatherby's courtroom on behalf of himself and his children's mother, Esther Jessop Barlow.

Weatherby signed the service plan after allowing Arthur Barlow to participate in the hearing with the understanding he was waiving his right to object to jurisdiction. Barlow asked the court to appoint an attorney for him.

He said he had not seen Esther Barlow or his children in years, and he has never been to the YFZ Ranch.

"I don't know what road to take," he said.

Child Protective Services caseworker Ashley Kennedy said the union "could have been a spiritual marriage," and that Esther was relocated to the ranch.

Barlow said he prefers to stay in southern Utah but is willing to move to Texas to get the children back.

"I can honestly say there's not a better mother for these children than Esther," Barlow said. "She's a perfectly balanced mother."

CPS attorney Charla Edwards suggested that parental absence could be a form of abuse or neglect, and Barlow answered for his actions.

He said he has seen custody cases "where children are pawns," and, "There's kidnapping back and forth" between parents. His decision to leave was to avoid that, he said.

Charity

05-20-2008, 02:50 PM

Wow...I've already gotten a very nice response from DFPS (CPS) about the videos. Bottom line -- they were aware of the first one, but not the second clip, and the discrepancy has been brought to the attention of staff who are working on the case.

I hope Ladyhawk sees this...it was she who made that great catch. Way to go, girl! :)

mariah79

05-20-2008, 02:55 PM

Originally posted by Charity
Wow...I've already gotten a very nice response from DFPS (CPS) about the videos. Bottom line -- they were aware of the first one, but not the second clip, and the discrepancy has been brought to the attention of staff who are working on the case.

I hope Ladyhawk sees this...it was she who made that great catch. Way to go, girl! :) [/*]

Nice to see CPS is taking serous leads given to them from the public.

KatyDid

05-20-2008, 03:01 PM

Originally posted by Charity
Wow...I've already gotten a very nice response from DFPS (CPS) about the videos. Bottom line -- they were aware of the first one, but not the second clip, and the discrepancy has been brought to the attention of staff who are working on the case.

I hope Ladyhawk sees this...it was she who made that great catch. Way to go, girl! :) [/*]

Way to go Carity and Ladyhawk :beer:

WOW, it sounds like they don't have a person assigned to follow the media reports and document discrepancies.

Cat2007

05-20-2008, 03:12 PM

KatyDid

05-20-2008, 03:23 PM

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz

You've got to know they are up to their fannies in alligators just trying to manage the day-to-day of this nightmare.

I don't think any of us can begin to imagine how much more difficult the CPS job is thanks to the enormous identity and parentage issues with these children.

And it's not just that we don't have all the names, it's also that so many of the names are identical. Just one example - there's the non-existent, hoaxer Sara(h) Jessop, and the one who appeared in court yesterday. There are so many Rulons and Sarahs and Jessops and Barlows it makes your head spin.

CPS must have to go to great pains to clarify whoTF they're talking about at every turn. Imagine a conversation: "Now, with regard to Sarah Jessop ..." to which someone must respond, "Which Sarah Jessop? The one with 3 boys and a girl? The one who's 8 years old? The 16 year old Sarah Jessop? The non-existent Sarah Jessop? The one married to Rulon Barlow? The one married to Roy Bartow? The one with 11 girls and a boy?"

Arrrghhhh! [/*]

:D You got that right GGW. Maybe we on this board should start sharing our observations with them like Ladyhawk and Charity. Or maybe just suggest they read the board daily.

:o An apology to Charity for misspelling your name in my early post.

KatyDid

05-20-2008, 03:27 PM

It's like that poor guy today, Arthur Barlow, making a plea for his children. He was excommunicated from the FLDS. He has not seen his wife or children in years. His wife was living at the Texas compound with his children.

I wonder who she got reassigned to. They list her name as Esther Jessop Barlow. She isn't lsited on the published Bishop's Record from 2007.

Charity

05-20-2008, 03:34 PM

Originally posted by KatyDid

Way to go Carity and Ladyhawk :beer:

WOW, it sounds like they don't have a person assigned to follow the media reports and document discrepancies. [/*]

Katy, from what was said in the response, they actually do have someone whose job it is to keep up with media accounts...but they hadn't caught that one.

I was really impressed that they (1) actually did read the mail and take it seriously and (2) were so kind and so prompt in their response. If that particular person is representative of DFPS as a whole, I feel even better about them now. :)

GollyGeeWhiz, you are exactly right -- has to be mind-boggling trying to keep up with all the information (and misinformation) they are dealing with. I'd be bald by now if I were working on that case! ;)

If anyone feels like giving a few words of encouragement or praise to DFPS, there is a "contact us" link at the top of their website where you can submit a comment.

Ladyhawk

05-20-2008, 03:38 PM

Originally posted by Roux

discrepance on the Dockstaders too. On MSNBC with Ann Curry they said they had 7 children and 5 were in custody. On their page there are 5 children listed ranging in age from 20 to 8. The 20 and 17 yr olds would not be in custody, so where are the other 2 children?
~~snip~~
[/*]

Remember, Nancy Dockstader said she had a 23 yr old daughter that is in custody & Nancy even offered her own drivers license to CPS (as if that would be acceptable...someone else's ID) to vouch for her daughter's age.

That daughter would have been 21-22 on the 3-23-07 Bishop's list but she's not listed with the Dockstaders. There is however a Megan E. Dockstader Jessop, age 21, 3rd wife to James Jessop on the BL. This may be the 2nd daughter she's referring to when she says in one interview "I have 1 daughter in San Antonio and 1 in Corpus Christi".

There are actually 6 children listed in the family...5 sons and 1 daughter, the 23 yr old not listed would make the 7th.

The 2 older sons, James Allen and Christopher Daniel would now be 21 & 18 respectively.....I would like to know if they are still living at YFZ and if not, where are they.

moo

Charity

05-20-2008, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by KatyDid

:D You got that right GGW. Maybe we on this board should start sharing our observations with them like Ladyhawk and Charity. Or maybe just suggest they read the board daily.

:o An apology to Charity for misspelling your name in my early post. [/*]

I didn't even notice! Hey...so long as the misspelling didn't begin with a "bi" and end with a "ch," no problem! :D

I don't think it would be a bad idea at all for potentially important information to be forwarded. If they already have it, it can be discarded; if not (like with the videos), it might help a child who really needs helping!

KatyDid

05-20-2008, 03:42 PM

Originally posted by Charity

Katy, from what was said in the response, they actually do have someone whose job it is to keep up with media accounts...but they hadn't caught that one.

I was really impressed that they (1) actually did read the mail and take it seriously and (2) were so kind and so prompt in their response. If that particular person is representative of DFPS as a whole, I feel even better about them now. :)

GollyGeeWhiz, you are exactly right -- has to be mind-boggling trying to keep up with all the information (and misinformation) they are dealing with. I'd be bald by now if I were working on that case! ;)

If anyone feels like giving a few words of encouragement or praise to DFPS, there is a "contact us" link at the top of their website where you can submit a comment. [/*]

You did a MAHVELOUS thing by contacting them.

I too think it is admirable that thy personally responded to you and in a very timely way.

Thanks for letting us know how to contact them and send words of encouragement.

Katy

Charity

05-20-2008, 03:48 PM

Oh good, Ladyhawk is here! I hope you don't mind that I sent your info in. They seemed very, very appreciative to have it. Thank you again for sharing that -- it just blew my mind. Of all the things to lie about, that was incredibly stupid on their part, not to mention heartless where their little daughter is concerned (she didn't even exist to them when it came to protecting the cult!).
:seeya:

Ladyhawk

05-20-2008, 04:05 PM

Yes Charity, that was pretty stupid wasn't it. Like someone out in TVLand wasn't going to catch that.....HA. Amazing that CPS answered you...hope they can put it to good use.

Rainkiss

05-20-2008, 04:14 PM

Originally posted by KatyDid

It's a heck of a position he put himself in because of his choices.

Wonder if that causes any jealousy amongst the 'wives'. [/*]

Actually, according to the "Stolen Innocence" book by Elissa Wall, her family ran into quite a bit of trouble due to jealousy and power struggles among the wives. Her own mother was reassigned because her father couldn't keep the peace in his own home.

mariah79

05-20-2008, 04:15 PM

These parents are going to find out that all these interviews they are doing is going to come back and bite them in the rearend. All the better for the children.

spageddy

05-20-2008, 04:17 PM

EWww. I just read those "Bishop's Lists". What's the deal with the Cox Family? Also- what about the house of hiding? Anyone know why those particular females would be in hiding? Mighty strange stuff.

Katprint

05-20-2008, 04:28 PM

Originally posted by mariah79
These parents are going to find out that all these interviews they are doing is going to come back and bite them in the rearend. All the better for the children. [/*]
Here's the thing: Doing interviews works great when you are telling the truth - because even when you tell the same boring story 100 times, it is still the same story. It is easy to remember things that actually happened.

When you are lying, it can be very difficult to remember what you said each time before, because you don't have the same "sense" memories (visual, aural, olfactory, tactile, etc.) to remind you.

Katprint
Who has a lot of fun cross-examining witnesses who commit perjury

Roux

05-20-2008, 04:35 PM

Regarding the request for Warren Jeffs' DNA, it sounded like it was just currently being requested. I thought that DNA samples were taken of everyone convicted of sex crimes and placed in a database. Maybe I've been watching too many episodes of Forensic Files and Cold Case.

KatyDid

05-20-2008, 04:49 PM

Originally posted by Rainkiss

Actually, according to the "Stolen Innocence" book by Elissa Wall, her family ran into quite a bit of trouble due to jealousy and power struggles among the wives. Her own mother was reassigned because her father couldn't keep the peace in his own home. [/*]

Oh my!! That shows how these people have no control over their own lives. That a mere mortal man could command such a thing is totally beyond my comprehension. :eek:

KatyDid

05-20-2008, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by spageddy
EWww. I just read those "Bishop's Lists". What's the deal with the Cox Family? Also- what about the house of hiding? Anyone know why those particular females would be in hiding? Mighty strange stuff. [/*]

We've been trying to figure out the 'house of hiding' reference and what that means when women and children are placed there. So far, I haven't been able to find an answer. I haven't seen an answer posted here, but I could have missed it.

As for the Cox family on the list, it looks like the person entering the information was confused about what the relationship column meant.

KatyDid

05-20-2008, 04:57 PM

The latest court house update:

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/may/20/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-the-polygamist/

LIVE FROM THE COURTHOUSE: Day 2 of the polygamist sect's 60-day hearings
Staff report

Originally published 10:44 a.m., May 20, 2008
Updated 03:46 p.m., May 20, 2008

Courtroom A and D - Jayna Boyle

"The count of children continues to fall - at least five non-suits were filed this afternoon in two courtrooms as CPS acknowledged that cases they thought involved minors actually involved adult women."

I wonder what proof of age they are providing, and why these weren't provided earlier.

walton

05-20-2008, 05:39 PM

Originally posted by KatyDid
Latest update from the court house:

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/may/20/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-the-polygamist/

LIVE FROM THE COURTHOUSE: Day 2 of the polygamist sect's 60-day hearings
Staff report

Originally published 10:44 a.m., May 20, 2008
Updated 12:16 p.m., May 20, 2008

Courtoom C - Matt Phinney

"Warren Jeffs' younger brother said today he is ready to work with Child Protective Services to get his children back while attorneys for his family hammered away at the family service plan.

Seth Steed Jeffs and his wife, Kathyrn Jeffs, this morning were in Courtroom C, where 51st District Judge Barbara Walther is presiding. Attorneys for the family blasted the service plan as too vague and said it does not specify what the family needs to do to get the children back."

Anybody believe Warren Jeffs' brother will follow the CPS plan? :no: [/*]

A little about Seth Jeffs:

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=584

Texas is the state where Seth Jeffs told deputies he was heading when they stopped his SUV on suspicion of drunken driving. After the vehicle's driver -- Seth's cousin, Nathaniel Allred -- accused Jeffs of paying him $5,000 for sexual favors, the deputies charged Seth Jeffs with soliciting prostitution.

Jeffs told deputies he was delivering the car's contents to Eldorado but would not discuss his brother's whereabouts. "Prophets are persecuted," he explained.

KatyDid

05-20-2008, 05:48 PM

Originally posted by walton

A little about Seth Jeffs:

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=584

Texas is the state where Seth Jeffs told deputies he was heading when they stopped his SUV on suspicion of drunken driving. After the vehicle's driver -- Seth's cousin, Nathaniel Allred -- accused Jeffs of paying him $5,000 for sexual favors, the deputies charged Seth Jeffs with soliciting prostitution.

Jeffs told deputies he was delivering the car's contents to Eldorado but would not discuss his brother's whereabouts. "Prophets are persecuted," he explained. [/*]

:eek:
A fine upstanding person he is...NOT!
I see he and Warren share the same sexual appetite for 'men/boys'.

KatyDid

05-20-2008, 05:51 PM

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz

These folks need to STOP with the interviews for a number of reasons, getting caught up in their lies being the most obvious. [/*]

:D I think they should keep on talkin'.

The more they lie, the more incredible they become.

I can't wait for the psych evaluations on these folks.

Cat2007

05-20-2008, 05:53 PM

Even Jeffs' own brother didn't like him.

"....says one of the prophet's older siblings, Warren has no love for the people. His method for controlling them is to inspire fear and dread. My brother preaches that you must be perfect in your obedience. You must have the spirit twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week, or you'll be cut off and go to hell. Warren's a fanatic. Everything is black and white to him."

From "Under the Banner of Heaven," by Jon Krakauer, pg. 261

walton

05-20-2008, 05:53 PM

Originally posted by Katprint

Here's the thing: Doing interviews works great when you are telling the truth - because even when you tell the same boring story 100 times, it is still the same story. It is easy to remember things that actually happened.

When you are lying, it can be very difficult to remember what you said each time before, because you don't have the same "sense" memories (visual, aural, olfactory, tactile, etc.) to remind you.

Katprint
Who has a lot of fun cross-examining witnesses who commit perjury [/*]

I'd like to see you cross-examine Wee Willy and the jailer watching Warren.

Q. Willy how many "spiritual wives" have you married that are underage?
A. I am here for the children. We want the children back. No one is forced. There is no abuse.

hammer

Q. Willy how many children do you have?
A. My wife and I have 4 children.

Q. How many kids call you Father?
A. I am a Father to many children. We take care of each other.

hammer

Questions to Jailer:
Q. How is Warren Jeffs doing since the Raid in Texas?
A. Warren spends all but one hour a week in his cell.
Thump.

Q. Is Warren Jeffs in a jail cell inside your jail located at this location.
A. His health is fine. It is our job to make sure he is doing ok.
Thump.

( I used to many of the lil hammer guys.)

walton

05-20-2008, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by Cat2007
Even Jeffs' own brother didn't like him.

"....says one of the prophet's older siblings, Warren has no love for the people. His method for controlling them is to inspire fear and dread. My brother preaches that you must be perfect in your obedience. You must have the spirit twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week, or you'll be cut off and go to hell. Warren's a fanatic. Everything is black and white to him."

From "Under the Banner of Heaven," by Jon Krakauer, pg. 261 [/*]

A very good book. imo

KatyDid

05-20-2008, 05:58 PM