Daily Thread 5/1 thru 5/6 [Archive] - In Session Message Boards

emdragon

05-01-2008, 03:31 PM

Originally posted by snoodles

I have a hard time believing that D Horowitz can even still DEFEND people after what happened to his own wife. [/*]

He does it because a Defense for EVERYONE is a constitutional right and is what makes our system work. Without them we simply don't have a system.

He does it because it takes a special person to look past the crime and assure that our system works for everyone, even those we may not like or think deserve any rights.

Anyone can be a prosecutor it is easy, everyone is on your side except the criminals.

A defense attorney is a special breed and contrary to what so many people on these boards feel they are the MOST important part of our system and should be admired for doing their duty every day even when faced with disdain and hate.

I respect D.Horowitz even more now than I did before his wife's murder.

There are people who walk the walk and DH is one of them-he believes in the system and he does his job to see that it works.

(I would believe that for emotional reasons he would avoid certain cases. )

walton

05-01-2008, 04:33 PM

I saw Nancy's show lastnight and it made me smile. I thought about all of you guys when I was watching it. So I watched it a second time and it made me smile again.

DH imo said what he needed to.

Susan Hays the Texas lawyer is actually imo a good lawyer. She is fighting for what she believes in. I don't think she is one to mess with.

Can you imagine what it must be like for these 300 plus lawyers to try and cram all this in? Lordy, my head is still spinning and I've been following it for awhile.

On the Nancy Grace show they always have a big space on the bottom that announces what is being talked about and a phone number for people to call in. How does that work? The show is already aired how can these people call in? I don't care to call in cuz I can't hear worth a darn anyway and I talk way to much. But I wouldn't mind asking a question or two.

I am thankful that Nancy Grace is a go- getter. :)

wandering

05-01-2008, 04:48 PM

Originally posted by emdragon

He does it because a Defense for EVERYONE is a constitutional right and is what makes our system work. Without them we simply don't have a system.

He does it because it takes a special person to look past the crime and assure that our system works for everyone, even those we may not like or think deserve any rights.

Anyone can be a prosecutor it is easy, everyone is on your side except the criminals.

A defense attorney is a special breed and contrary to what so many people on these boards feel they are the MOST important part of our system and should be admired for doing their duty every day even when faced with disdain and hate.

I respect D.Horowitz even more now than I did before his wife's murder.

There are people who walk the walk and DH is one of them-he believes in the system and he does his job to see that it works.

(I would believe that for emotional reasons he would avoid certain cases. ) [/*]That doesn't speak to the fact that he took on the Susan Polk case.

walton

05-01-2008, 04:50 PM

http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2008/04/flds-polygamy-s.html

The hourlong film features in-depth interviews with Flora Jessop, who ran away from an FLDS settlement at age 16 and for decades has been an activist helping women and children leave the group. Her relative, Carolyn Jessop, is also interviewed; Carolyn is the author of the current bestseller “Escape,” which tells the story of how she just barely managed to leave a violent, loveless FLDS marriage with her eight children in tow.

This workmanlike documentary is marred by a terribly tinny, cheesy soundtrack and some sloppy, choppy editing (though what I viewed was an rough cut of the episode, so perhaps that’s been remedied). Still, what the Jessop women have to say is fascinating – and frightening.

Flora, Carolyn and others with knowledge of the group say that backbreaking labor is the norm at FLDS compounds (even for children), and physical violence is apparently routine. Carolyn says that her “sister-wives” frequently punished her for her transgressions by beating her children. Her husband, FLDS leader Merril Jessop, made her his fourth wife when she was 18, and throughout her eight pregnancies, she was denounced by other women when she experienced severe nausea and vomiting (this was a sign of her lack of faith, she was told).

a listing of air dates: http://www.wetv.com/shows/secretlives/episodes/EP007909200037

wandering

05-01-2008, 04:54 PM

Originally posted by walton
I saw Nancy's show lastnight and it made me smile. I thought about all of you guys when I was watching it. So I watched it a second time and it made me smile again.

DH imo said what he needed to.

Susan Hays the Texas lawyer is actually imo a good lawyer. She is fighting for what she believes in. I don't think she is one to mess with.

Can you imagine what it must be like for these 300 plus lawyers to try and cram all this in? Lordy, my head is still spinning and I've been following it for awhile.

On the Nancy Grace show they always have a big space on the bottom that announces what is being talked about and a phone number for people to call in. How does that work? The show is already aired how can these people call in? I don't care to call in cuz I can't hear worth a darn anyway and I talk way to much. But I wouldn't mind asking a question or two.

I am thankful that Nancy Grace is a go- getter. :) [/*]I've never called in to NG, but most of those call-in shows ask your name and what your question is. Then they choose the good questions, I think.

You have to call in on the first airing, after that it's just a rerun.

wandering

05-01-2008, 05:00 PM

Originally posted by walton
http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2008/04/flds-polygamy-s.html

The hourlong film features in-depth interviews with Flora Jessop, who ran away from an FLDS settlement at age 16 and for decades has been an activist helping women and children leave the group. Her relative, Carolyn Jessop, is also interviewed; Carolyn is the author of the current bestseller “Escape,” which tells the story of how she just barely managed to leave a violent, loveless FLDS marriage with her eight children in tow.

This workmanlike documentary is marred by a terribly tinny, cheesy soundtrack and some sloppy, choppy editing (though what I viewed was an rough cut of the episode, so perhaps that’s been remedied). Still, what the Jessop women have to say is fascinating – and frightening.

Flora, Carolyn and others with knowledge of the group say that backbreaking labor is the norm at FLDS compounds (even for children), and physical violence is apparently routine. Carolyn says that her “sister-wives” frequently punished her for her transgressions by beating her children. Her husband, FLDS leader Merril Jessop, made her his fourth wife when she was 18, and throughout her eight pregnancies, she was denounced by other women when she experienced severe nausea and vomiting (this was a sign of her lack of faith, she was told).

a listing of air dates: http://www.wetv.com/shows/secretlives/episodes/EP007909200037 [/*]Thank you! Looking forward to this.

I wonder if any of the exiled boys are talking...anywhere?

cloe23

05-01-2008, 05:16 PM

Originally posted by walton
I saw Nancy's show lastnight and it made me smile. I thought about all of you guys when I was watching it. So I watched it a second time and it made me smile again.

DH imo said what he needed to.

Susan Hays the Texas lawyer is actually imo a good lawyer. She is fighting for what she believes in. I don't think she is one to mess with.

Can you imagine what it must be like for these 300 plus lawyers to try and cram all this in? Lordy, my head is still spinning and I've been following it for awhile.

On the Nancy Grace show they always have a big space on the bottom that announces what is being talked about and a phone number for people to call in. How does that work? The show is already aired how can these people call in? I don't care to call in cuz I can't hear worth a darn anyway and I talk way to much. But I wouldn't mind asking a question or two.

I am thankful that Nancy Grace is a go- getter. :) [/*]

Good read:read: TY
As for these 300 plus lawyers, are they working pro bono?
I admire Nancy Grace's go, go as well.
What are your questions? Do share....Please...
Cloe

SHymes13

05-01-2008, 05:20 PM

I am wondering how closely Warren Jeffs conversations and visitors are being monitored especially now with everything going on.

wandering

05-01-2008, 05:27 PM

Originally posted by snoodles

Interesting point. Do you think he is still in control from behind bars? [/*]Most certainly, imo.

SHymes13

05-01-2008, 05:29 PM

I think so, although he has people carrying out his wishes. That is scary!

walton

05-01-2008, 06:24 PM

Originally posted by cloe23

Good read:read: TY
As for these 300 plus lawyers, are they working pro bono?
I admire Nancy Grace's go, go as well.
What are your questions? Do share....Please...
Cloe [/*]

I think they are donating their time.

If I could ask two questions I would ask 4 and maybe two would get answered. So here are my four.

1. Where is Warren Jeffs? with proof to back it up. I've seen make believe news articles. I've seen someone who kinda looks like Warren being escorted into the courthouse, I've seen articles written that people have visited the jail. But I've not seen anything that shows Warren Jeffs is alive and in jail.

2. Western Precision- NewEra- Utah Tool and Die and Hydropak are a few of the businesses that are tied in with Warren. I wanna know why the U. S. government hasn't stopped doing business with these people.

3. Who is doing the DNA testing and where is it being done?

4. This is a two parter kinda- I would like to know- when a 15 year old girl walks into a Utah Social Service office applies for food stamps for her and her 2 children why someone isn't calling CPS ? and acting upon it.

I would also like to know why Utah and Arizona shout out that they are doing so much to protect these kids that they are handing out sentences such as 45 days.

So who is watching those in the government?

Here are a couple of links concerning those companies:
http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy9.html

The bottom line: Jeffs worked as an accountant and remained so friendly with his ex-wife's family that for years he did the bookkeeping for one of their businesses. In 1968 he founded Utah Tool & Die Co., which now employs about 70 people and generates $4.8 million in sales annually, according to Dun and Bradstreet, an information-services corporation.

Jeffs was ousted as president of Federated Security Insurance Co. in 1958 after the board of directors discovered he had solicited proxies in his own name in a failed attempt to fire all the directors. At the time, the Salt Lake City-based company had $41 million of insurance policies in force.

Unlikely newsmaker: Though Jeffs has a passion for privacy, his name surfaced in a few news reports after the Jan. 15, 1986, Challenger space-shuttle explosion that killed seven astronauts.

Jeffs was on the board of directors for Hydrapak. The West Jordan firm manufactured the O-ring, which allowed a plume of fiery gas to escape, igniting the shuttle's liquid-fuel tank.

Eight months after the explosion, his name was dropped from incorporation papers. Jeffs' son Wallace, who bought Hydrapak in September 1986, insisted in a telephone interview that he never knew of his father's involvement with the firm.

Lloyd L. Wall, who is Hydrapak's former president, treasurer and director at the time of the Challenger explosion, lives in one of Rulon Jeffs' five Salt Lake County homes, this one described on tax rolls as situated on a half-acre wooded lot, valued at $287,000.

I don't know who owns this blog- http://www.sarahnielson.com/2006/02/07/wanted-paycheck-where-criminals-go-to-work/

spydernweb2006

05-01-2008, 06:30 PM

Originally posted by asurvivor
they can test the children for brittle bones but it is a painful test [/*]

They now use an xray method that I had done to test for Osteoporosis. You lay on your side and the xray sends a beam thru your hip and measures the bone density. Not painful at all and results are immed. The whole procedure takes 15 mins, tops.

JMHO

Hugs,

Spyder

Mimi428

05-01-2008, 06:55 PM

Originally posted by cloe23

Good read:read: TY
As for these 300 plus lawyers, are they working pro bono?
I admire Nancy Grace's go, go as well.
What are your questions? Do share....Please...
Cloe [/*]

All I have heard about the attorneys is that when the women & children were removed from the ranch, shortly thereafter a note or message was put on the TX state bar website, requesting volunteers. Then I heard about 350 did volunteer. Have not heard anything since then.

Sorry no link, this was all over the TV on every station here shortly after the women & children were first moved.

tisamystery

05-01-2008, 06:57 PM

I have total respect for the lawyers who are working for the kids. My issue is whether or not they ARE working for the kids.

Susan Hayes is so defensive, it seems like she's working for the parents. She's taking the position that all of this is an attack on FLDS. I thought her position was supposed to be that her clients (the kids) have possibly been abused. This being the case, shouldn't she be more open-minded? Shouldn't she be as concerned about getting to the bottom of whether or not the kids have been mistreated rather than leaping to the defense of the parents? I think she's lost sight of the mission.

wandering

05-01-2008, 11:30 PM

Originally posted by snoodles

OMG, the O-ring? And the government still USES them? That is sickening and it oozes corruption. [/*]I understood that the 0-ring should have been replaced in routine maintenance. It was worn. IIRC, that equipment had been used 8 times with the same o-ring.

I'm familiar with 0-rings, I use them in my work. I know they don't last long. They should have known that, too. E-gads, in a space shuttle!

evalles

05-02-2008, 12:53 AM

Originally posted by tisamystery
I have total respect for the lawyers who are working for the kids. My issue is whether or not they ARE working for the kids.

Susan Hayes is so defensive, it seems like she's working for the parents. She's taking the position that all of this is an attack on FLDS. I thought her position was supposed to be that her clients (the kids) have possibly been abused. This being the case, shouldn't she be more open-minded? Shouldn't she be as concerned about getting to the bottom of whether or not the kids have been mistreated rather than leaping to the defense of the parents? I think she's lost sight of the mission. [/*]

Maybe the child she's representing wasn't abused and wants to go home. I get confused, I know a guardian ad-litem is supposed to represent the child's best interests, even if it conflicts w/ the child's wants. Are these attorney's working in the capacities of GAL's ?
I also thought in some cases (I'm not sure which, maybe older kids ?) children have attorneys that will work to get what the child wants. Kinda like if we hired an attorney, in say a custody hearing, we tell him we want sole custody, alimony and child support, he's supposed to try to get us what we want.
I'm not sure though.

evalles

05-02-2008, 01:03 AM

I found an article quoting Susan Hays, she seems impressed with her client's father and the compound.
While I'm not fond of CPS, I'm certainly not impressed w/ the FLDS.
She might end up being one of the next wives.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695272114,00.html

FLDS has lotsa $$, they could definitely pay these attorneys under the table.
Isn't Deseret News owned by the FLDS ?

Mimi428

05-02-2008, 01:24 AM

Originally posted by evalles
I found an article quoting Susan Hays, she seems impressed with her client's father and the compound.
While I'm not fond of CPS, I'm certainly not impressed w/ the FLDS.
She might end up being one of the next wives.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695272114,00.html

FLDS has lotsa $$, they could definitely pay these attorneys under the table.
Isn't Deseret News owned by the FLDS ? [/*]

That wasn't Susan Hays, that was a different attorney - Patricia Deveau.

Susan Hays' client is a toddler, I think around 2 years old (can't remember where I read the age, though). I think an attorney making a case for what is best for a 2 year old is going to be in a heck of a different position that an attorney making an argument about what is best for a 12 year old.

JMO

tisamystery

05-02-2008, 01:54 AM

It just seems to me that if you represent a child who has been removed from an environment where there are suspicions of abuse you would be anxious to find out if it's true, not fly to the defense of the parents. And that's what is appears Hayes is doing.

LLaFren

05-02-2008, 06:32 AM

Ok, I'll start today's thread with this article:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1734818-2,00.html

And this question, where the h e double hockey sticks, are the dads? I've only seen 3 go public (anybody else seen something I missed?)

And as for the young girl who just gave birth, Why isn't she screaming for the dad to be there with her? If my husband hadn't been there for the births of our children, trust me there wouldn't have been any more after the first one:D

Carol25

05-02-2008, 06:57 AM

Originally posted by AnnieBean

I am still reading Carolyn Jessops book. This kid who just delivered is lucky she was even attended to by medical people, if she had been behind the FLDS walls she might have fared much worse. Jessop recounts one lady whose episiotomy was done w/ sewing scissors and she was sewn up with dental floss by the lay midwife they had who attended births. Another womans baby died after she was in labor over 24 hours and the midwife could not get permission from either her husband or the leader to send her to the hospital. Baby died and finally the midwife got consent to send the woman to the ER, before she was dead too. The husband told the wife the babys death was Gods will. Also Jessop says that births care attended by a crowd of people, whoever the husband wants there to include the other wives, in fact its almost a requirement the other wives attend. Of course no screaming and the usual labor scenario is allowed. They are told they must endure the pain and not cry out. I can't even imagine labor without screaming something, and threatening to kill my husband at leat one time during the transition phase...lol..

This kid might have had the best delivery ever, don't 'assume' she wanted the 'husband' there with her.

jmo [/*]
If this wasn't her first child, magine how amazed she was when she got something for the pain! What a difference. She'll never go back to the compound.

Can't imagine havng a baby wth the whole neighborhood there! Yuck!

LLaFren

05-02-2008, 07:10 AM

:seeya: Morning All, I started the new daily thread and PM'd Coldwater to make it a sticky.

See ya there.

LL

LLaFren

05-02-2008, 07:17 AM

ouch, your right Annie, I was letting my somewhat normal life experience interfere with what has been done with these girls.

I think (not sure where) I read she was "married" to a 22 year old. Even with a 16-20 month old older child, that would be a "legal" relationship (yes? no?), I'm not saying it was consensual, just legal right?

So why isn't he screaming to see his kid?

I need a flow chart :confused:

walton

05-02-2008, 08:02 AM

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9128855

The U.S. attorney for Utah and the head of the FBI's Salt Lake City field office said Thursday there should be no rush to establish a federal task force on polygamous crimes because existing partnerships already offer cross-agency cooperation.
"What's also lost in this debate is let's not ignore that just announcing a task force doesn't give you probable cause to launch an investigation and it doesn't allow you to ignore constitutional protections," U.S. Attorney for Utah Brett Tolman.
Tim Fuhrman, the Special Agent in Charge of the FBI's field office in Salt Lake City, said local agencies seem to be satisfied with the efforts so far and a task force won't necessarily solve any problems.

Why? :(

LLaFren

05-02-2008, 08:38 AM

Originally posted by walton

Why? :( [/*]

because they can
:( :flamemad:

LLaFren

05-02-2008, 08:53 AM

Has this been posted somewhere else and I missed it?

http://www.dfps.state.tx.us/documents/about/pdf/2008-04-22_Model_for_Care_For_Children_from_the_Yearning_f or_Zion.pdf

It's the draft copy of how to deal with the kids after they are in foster care.

Sounds like CPS is trying really hard to protect them.

Carol25

05-02-2008, 08:55 AM

Originally posted by walton
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9128855

The U.S. attorney for Utah and the head of the FBI's Salt Lake City field office said Thursday there should be no rush to establish a federal task force on polygamous crimes because existing partnerships already offer cross-agency cooperation.
"What's also lost in this debate is let's not ignore that just announcing a task force doesn't give you probable cause to launch an investigation and it doesn't allow you to ignore constitutional protections," U.S. Attorney for Utah Brett Tolman.
Tim Fuhrman, the Special Agent in Charge of the FBI's field office in Salt Lake City, said local agencies seem to be satisfied with the efforts so far and a task force won't necessarily solve any problems.

Why? :( [/*]
It was discussed in another case that the FBI can't come into a state and assist or take over an investigation. The have to be asked by the local or state authorties. I don't know if that is the case here or not.

Perhaps with Harry Reid getting involved, it can be a Federal investigation and the feds can come in.

Carol25

05-02-2008, 08:57 AM

Originally posted by LLaFren
Has this been posted somewhere else and I missed it?

http://www.dfps.state.tx.us/documents/about/pdf/2008-04-22_Model_for_Care_For_Children_from_the_Yearning_f or_Zion.pdf

It's the draft copy of how to deal with the kids after they are in foster care.

Sounds like CPS is trying really hard to protect them. [/*]
Good morning, LlaFren! The link says "page not found.":seeya:

LLaFren

05-02-2008, 09:07 AM

Originally posted by Carol25

Good morning, LlaFren! The link says "page not found.":seeya: [/*]

Dang computers :rolleyes:, try this:

http://www.dfps.state.tx.us/

and the link to the pdf is on the top right.

Sorry for the confusion

Rainkiss

05-02-2008, 09:37 AM

Originally posted by Carol25

If this wasn't her first child, magine how amazed she was when she got something for the pain! What a difference. She'll never go back to the compound.

Can't imagine havng a baby wth the whole neighborhood there! Yuck! [/*]

It wasn't her first, IIRC. This "18 year old" already has a 16 month old baby.

johnielee333

05-02-2008, 10:03 AM

there is proof of abuse within the FLDS sects starting from the 1800s on up. it has never stopped. it will never stop until we stop it. this is the USA's fault. they have known about the abuse of children & women since day one & they had & have the power in their hands to stop it but they didnt.
i blame the USA for all of this.
the goverment,LE & all of the higher up's. they are all at fault. they need to stop the madness. they need to close them down & kick them out of our country. :flamemad:

KatyDid

05-02-2008, 10:48 AM

Originally posted by walton
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9128855

The U.S. attorney for Utah and the head of the FBI's Salt Lake City field office said Thursday there should be no rush to establish a federal task force on polygamous crimes because existing partnerships already offer cross-agency cooperation.
"What's also lost in this debate is let's not ignore that just announcing a task force doesn't give you probable cause to launch an investigation and it doesn't allow you to ignore constitutional protections," U.S. Attorney for Utah Brett Tolman.
Tim Fuhrman, the Special Agent in Charge of the FBI's field office in Salt Lake City, said local agencies seem to be satisfied with the efforts so far and a task force won't necessarily solve any problems.

Why? :( [/*]

:flamemad: THEY are the problem. At this point they should be feeling shamed and humiliated, but NO, they continue to put their head in the sand.

This is not the first time they have been presented with the opportunity to 'investigate' this cult and the crimes they commit. THEY are cowards, just like the old men who will not come forward for DNA tests to prove their paternity. THEY too are guilty of something they wish to hide.

dsmith

05-02-2008, 10:59 AM

Lloyd Barlow, the ranch's on-site physician, said he was caring for a number of FLDS children with broken or fractured bones at the time they were removed from the ranch. He said he has referred a number of families to emergency rooms in nearby San Angelo, and to orthopedic specialists.

A physician at the ranch who is also an FLDS member said most of the broken bones were from minor falls, and that there is no pattern of abuse there.

"Probably over 90 percent of the injuries are forearm fractures from ground-level or low-level falls," Barlow said. "I can also tell you that we don't live in a community where there is a pattern of abuse."

Rebecka Zemlock, public relations director for San Angelo Community Medical Center, said that doctors affiliated with the hospital did not want to discuss whether it is unusual for a group of children that size to have had that many broken bones. Zemlock said some doctors did say that in-breeding can cause brittle bones.
http://www.gosanangelo.com/

lotty

05-02-2008, 11:34 AM

http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/ci_9065731

Texas officials are protecting FLDS children from abuse
By Laura Chapman
Article Last Updated: 04/26/2008 10:47:42 AM MDT

Fathers indoctrinate their small children that their abuse or abusing is spiritual, while mothers prepare their female children for rape in a wedding dress. The reason children can't tell officials who their parents are is that they are confused about their own identity and that of their parents.
My father was Clyde Mackert, my mother Myra Kunz, yet my birth certificate states that I'm Laura Chapman and my father is Clyde Chapman. One birth certificate claims my mother has three deceased children with Roy Mackert, yet none of her children are deceased.

lotty

05-02-2008, 11:38 AM

http://www.polygkids.com/

Out of Polygamist Mormonism

By

Brian J. Mackert

My mother plotted her escape for many years and waited until all but my sister and I were the only ones left of her kids that weren’t married off to make her break. I was thirteen when she asked me to leave with her. Without any need for thought my immediate answer was, “Yes mom, I’ll go with you. Anything is better then the hell I’m living in.” I never asked her why she was leaving. I was just glad to be going. My older sister was 15 and she had gone to live with my older brother whose wife had just given birth to twins. We moved in with my Grandmother who had a very large house that had been divided up into apartments. Father acted like he didn’t care that we had left and to my knowledge never attempted to reconcile the marriage. It seemed as if he gave us up without a fight. Which was a good thing. But the kid in me wanted him to care enough about me to fight for me. I was hurt that he didn’t. I later found out why.

Devotion

05-02-2008, 11:57 AM

Originally posted by dsmith

Lloyd Barlow,
the ranch's on-site physician, said he was caring for a number of FLDS children with broken or fractured bones at the time they were removed from the ranch. He said he has referred a number of families to emergency rooms in nearby San Angelo, and to orthopedic specialists.

A physician at the ranch who is also an FLDS member said most of the broken bones were from minor falls, and that there is no pattern of abuse there.

"Probably over 90 percent of the injuries are forearm fractures from ground-level or low-level falls," Barlow said.
"I can also tell you that we don't live in a community where there is a pattern of abuse."

http://www.gosanangelo.com/ [/*]

GEE, another BARLOW and imagine he's the doctor...imagine that!
Barlow is a member of the sect, which makes him a little more than biased!
How many wives and children does the doctor have?

So let's dig into how many laws this doctor may have known were being broken.

Starting with 12-17 year olds being used as sexual chattle for older men.
then we can move on to knowing that most of the men having sex with these girls and boys are probably closer relatives, possible uncles & cousins.
Don't tell me the doctor didn't know any of this and more!..jmo

lotty

05-02-2008, 12:04 PM

Originally posted by Devotion

GEE, another BARLOW and imagine he's the doctor...imagine that!
Barlow is a member of the sect, which makes him a little more than biased!
How many wives and children does the doctor have?

So let's dig into how many laws this doctor may have known were being broken.

Starting with 12-17 year olds being used as sexual chattle for older men.
then we can move on to knowing that most of the men having sex with these girls and boys are probably closer relatives, possible uncles & cousins.
Don't tell me the doctor didn't know any of this and more!..jmo [/*]

JMO/IMO The doctor has no complaints against his records in AZ or UT that I could find...as for digging into records, I'm thinking good luck, it will probably be like the police department in Colorado City. People go to find record of past reported abuse, and there are no records. As always JMO/IMO

walton

05-02-2008, 01:02 PM

Originally posted by KatyDid

:flamemad: THEY are the problem. At this point they should be feeling shamed and humiliated, but NO, they continue to put their head in the sand.

This is not the first time they have been presented with the opportunity to 'investigate' this cult and the crimes they commit. THEY are cowards, just like the old men who will not come forward for DNA tests to prove their paternity. THEY too are guilty of something they wish to hide. [/*]

I have to admit I felt like I got kicked in the stomach when I read this and the letter that Larry and Curley wrote.

And now Moe is pushing his book: http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9123261

In a new book, The Good Fight: Hard Lessons from Searchlight to Washington (G.P. Putnam's Sons Publishing, $25.95), the U.S. Senate majority leader talks about his conversion to Mormonism. It was happenstance in some ways, but also a change Reid attributes to divine intervention.

But I got to thinking.... http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/director_staff/texas_rangers/#JobDuties:

Listed under Job Duties:

Establish direct personal contact and maintain close liaison with all agencies, or branches thereof, concerned with the investigation and suppression of criminal activities. These contacts are not to be limited to the state but shall be nationwide. Every effort will be exerted to maintain a full and free flow of information on active offenders and offenses between all interested agencies;

Participate in educational training programs and provide specialized instruction to local, state, and federal law enforcement representatives;

With the approval of the Director, conduct investigations of any alleged misconduct on the part of other Department personnel;

do you think? maybe? please say yes.

walton

05-02-2008, 01:06 PM

Originally posted by lotty

JMO/IMO The doctor has no complaints against his records in AZ or UT that I could find...as for digging into records, I'm thinking good luck, it will probably be like the police department in Colorado City. People go to find record of past reported abuse, and there are no records. As always JMO/IMO [/*]

Wasn't it him that told the reporters that the kids have Brittle Bone Disease? Wasn't it him that said he had been treating the kids for "normal broken bones" on the ranch?

Let his great records show as such or throw him out of the areana. jmo

Carol25

05-02-2008, 01:25 PM

Originally posted by walton

I have to admit I felt like I got kicked in the stomach when I read this and the letter that Larry and Curley wrote.

And now Moe is pushing his book: http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9123261

In a new book, The Good Fight: Hard Lessons from Searchlight to Washington (G.P. Putnam's Sons Publishing, $25.95), the U.S. Senate majority leader talks about his conversion to Mormonism. It was happenstance in some ways, but also a change Reid attributes to divine intervention.

But I got to thinking.... http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/director_staff/texas_rangers/#JobDuties:

Listed under Job Duties:

Establish direct personal contact and maintain close liaison with all agencies, or branches thereof, concerned with the investigation and suppression of criminal activities. These contacts are not to be limited to the state but shall be nationwide. Every effort will be exerted to maintain a full and free flow of information on active offenders and offenses between all interested agencies;

Participate in educational training programs and provide specialized instruction to local, state, and federal law enforcement representatives;

With the approval of the Director, conduct investigations of any alleged misconduct on the part of other Department personnel;

do you think? maybe? please say yes. [/*]

I'm SO disapponted.I thought something might happen. Didn't know he was Mormon. Okay, Reid, Show us there are no ties!:(

walton

05-02-2008, 01:43 PM

Originally posted by Carol25

I'm SO disapponted.I thought something might happen. Didn't know he was Mormon. Okay, Reid, Show us there are no ties!:( [/*]

But the FBI? Are they saying that they think the "Good Ol Boys" are doing their job? That is insane.

Did you read their letter? Who are they kidding? And the FBI says yeah ok. And that is it? Phooey. Other people might buy it. I ain't buying it.

So what are they hiding? What could be worse than allowing young children to continue getting abused? What could be worse than our own government not stepping in to end this crap? Religion or not.

I have to believe that there is someone out there that can help.

walton

05-02-2008, 02:04 PM

http://attorneygeneral.utah.gov/childabuse.html

The Role of the Attorney General
The Utah Attorney General’s Office is committed to keeping Utah a safe place for children, be it from drugs in the streets or violence in our schools or homes. In cases of child abuse or neglect, the office has several roles.

http://www.azag.gov/message.html

Standing Up for Crime Victims

The needs of most victims of crime are easy to appreciate.

They want to be safe and made whole. They want their physical and emotional wounds to heal. They want their offenders held accountable. And they want their communities to stand respectfully beside them.

During this year's National Crime Victims' Rights Week, April 13-19, we recognize those needs and reaffirm our commitment to help meet them.

This year's theme -- Justice for Victims, Justice for All -- reminds us that doing right by victims is an essential component of "justice for all," which is the foundation of justice in America.

All looks good on paper doesn't it?

Rainkiss

05-02-2008, 02:14 PM

Do we have a duck smiley for this quack:

Interview with Dr. Phil (http://www.cnn.com/2008/SHOWBIZ/TV/05/02/lkl.dr.phil/index.html)

Posting the whole thing, 'cause it wasn't much of a conversation.

King: Let's turn to the polygamy matter. If the allegations of abuse are true, do you see any problem with all of these children in foster care?

McGraw: I see huge problems with it, Larry. I think we're in a situation here that there is not necessarily a good option. Now, think about this: there are only a certain number of these children that were believed to be at risk. But, yet, all of the children were taken out and put into foster care.
Now, I've said this before, the statistics tell us that 73 percent of all children that go into foster care wind up on the street or in jail. So, that means that if you apply those numbers to these 416 children, 304 of them would be predicted to wind up on the street or in jail. Is that a good alternative? And I don't think it is. And I don't think that it makes sense to take all of the children out of this situation without doing a case-by-case study, to see which one of these children are at risk and which ones are not.

Now, clearly, the principles that seem to govern the FLDS would be imminent danger for these children. But somehow or another, you have to figure a way to train these people, create an open door policy, get monitoring, get access and try to get these children back with their biological mothers, but with protection, and monitoring.

King: What do you think of the adult mothers?

McGraw: Well, at this point, so many of these mothers, Larry, grew up in this religious sect. So, they know nothing else. I mean, people say they look strange, because they walk around in kind of "Little House on the Prairie" type garb. They have unusual hair. They speak in very monotonic, scripted ways. This is all these women know. So many of them were born in this sect. All they have been exposed to are the forces, values and treatment that is indigenous to this sect. So, they don't know anything else. And they have been told that you, me, everybody on the outside world constitutes evil threats. So, at this point, I'm sure they're in a state of confusion. But it doesn't mean that they can't learn, that they can't be willing to adhere to some other guidelines. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. But some dialogue has to take place here.

Why didn't Larry King ask one simple question... "How do we determine which children are at risk, when neither the children nor the parents can answer a simple question the same time twice in a row?"

barf

evalles

05-02-2008, 02:38 PM

The teenager that gave birth recently has lost custody of her baby to the state.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,353919,00.html

She claims to have documentation that she is 18, the state is insisting she's 15 or 16.

walton

05-02-2008, 02:47 PM

She also "claimed" to be under 18 so she could be with the younger children.

I say prove it.

With so many of these people not having any ID- I wonder what type of ID those men are using when they drive those big white pickemup trucks?

Do you suppose it is a regualar drivers license?

Rainkiss

05-02-2008, 02:56 PM

Originally posted by evalles
The teenager that gave birth recently has lost custody of her baby to the state.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,353919,00.html

She claims to have documentation that she is 18, the state is insisting she's 15 or 16. [/*]

I believe it was stated the day the baby was born that the child of a ward of the state is almost always immediately made a ward of the state, as well. The article doesn't say specifically how they were placed, but it does state that minors with children were placed with their children.

Roux

05-02-2008, 03:04 PM

Devotion

05-02-2008, 03:04 PM

Originally posted by evalles

The teenager that gave birth recently has lost custody of her baby to the state.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,353919,00.html

She claims to have documentation that she is 18, the state is insisting she's 15 or 16. [/*]

These people think we're all stupid, including our Doctors.
IF this teen is just 15 or 16, how old would she have been when she got pregnant with her first child, who is now 20 months old ?

IS this Why JESSOP, father of the child is HIDING? IF you aren't breaking the law, why hide?

QUOTE:
The 1-day-old infant born to a teen is believed to be 15 or 16 years old.

The girl has claimed to be 18 and based on a bishop's record used during the custody hearing two weeks ago, she would be 18 now.
But officials believe she is younger and placed her in foster care with other children taken from the ranch.

The newborn is the teen's second child; the first is a 20-month-old boy.

The father of both children was identified as Jackson Jessop, 22,
but state officials say they don't know his whereabouts......jmo

Devotion

05-02-2008, 03:21 PM

Originally posted by walton

She also "claimed" to be under 18 so she could be with the younger children.

I say prove it.

With so many of these people not having any ID- I wonder what type of ID those men are using when they drive those big white pick-em-up trucks?

Do you suppose it is a regular drivers license?
[/*]

W...You always make good points, for us to think about.
Yes, the men seem to have the newest and best of everything.
You got me thinking about the reason behind not having records on the children.

These men are so cunning, I wouldn't put it past them to ADD 2 or 3 years to the girls ages.

Trading the children like a herd of sheep, from cult to cult and NO records, WHO would know the difference in age 10 or 12?......(except a real-Doctor).....jmo

lotty

05-02-2008, 04:16 PM

Originally posted by walton

Wasn't it him that told the reporters that the kids have Brittle Bone Disease? Wasn't it him that said he had been treating the kids for "normal broken bones" on the ranch?

Let his great records show as such or throw him out of the areana. jmo [/*]
ITA! I'll bet he can come up with more stories about the same patient than you and me and everyone on this thread put together, they seem to like to change the stories as they feel necessary. For once I'd like to see them tell the truth and back it up with facts. Even Rod Parker is as slippery as the FLDS.

Rainkiss

05-02-2008, 04:20 PM

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz

The deception these people practice, in and of itself, has and will continue to cause them enormous heartache. Shame on them all. The poor children - from the newborns right up through the teen mothers, will suffer most for it.

I wish when we see information like the discrepancy in this girl's age that we could get at least a hint why the state believes her to be younger than she claims. I *hope* it's not just that she appears younger physically, but that there's more real physical evidence that she's a younger teen. I don't know what that might be. Just hoping.

I feel unbearably sad for those children. [/*]

Hard to tell... She may have claimed to be younger, just to stay with her older baby. Heck, she may have claimed her name as "Sarah," before they realized that the search was for a pregnant 16 year old, named Sarah, with one older child.

Cat2007

05-02-2008, 04:46 PM

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz

Perfect! :D

Can someone tell me why "Dr." Phil, in light of his recent embarrassments with the Britney and teen-girl beatdown in Florida situations, is being asked - as though he's some sort of actual authority - about the Eldorado mess?

His opinion is worthless. He's not a real doctor. And his motives are and will forever be questionable. In this case, he appears to be campaigning for a series of shows from the compound, featuring the FLDS Stepford wives.

:cuss: [/*]

I second that, Golly. Quack, quack.

Mitzy2

05-02-2008, 04:55 PM

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz

The deception these people practice, in and of itself, has and will continue to cause them enormous heartache. Shame on them all. The poor children - from the newborns right up through the teen mothers, will suffer most for it.

I wish when we see information like the discrepancy in this girl's age that we could get at least a hint why the state believes her to be younger than she claims. I *hope* it's not just that she appears younger physically, but that there's more real physical evidence that she's a younger teen. I don't know what that might be. Just hoping.

I feel unbearably sad for those children. [/*] I have been thinking about this, surely the doctor who delivered the girl's baby could render a professional opinion of the girl's age ? Big developemental difference between a 14 & 18 yr old. Another way to tell is by their teeth, particulary the "molars' and developement of "wisdom teeth " if they are still "buds" and do not yet have roots, then they are still in the pubescent age group.

walton

05-02-2008, 07:32 PM

Originally posted by Devotion

W...You always make good points, for us to think about.
Yes, the men seem to have the newest and best of everything.
You got me thinking about the reason behind not having records on the children.

These men are so cunning, I wouldn't put it past them to ADD 2 or 3 years to the girls ages.

Trading the children like a herd of sheep, from cult to cult and NO records, WHO would know the difference in age 10 or 12?......(except a real-Doctor).....jmo [/*]

You caught it. :D

Learned behavior. They are told that Lying for the Lord is necessary. Robots with a wire missing imo.

walton

05-02-2008, 07:40 PM

Originally posted by Aame

This could very well be true.\

Who would be the 'proxy' prophet since Jeffs is in jail. hmmmmmmmm [/*]

But is Warren really in jail? Is Warren still alive? I haven't seen hide nor hair of him since the day he was sentenced in Judge Shumates courtroom.

One day the reporters and cameramen were allowed in and BAM the next day they weren't.

Supposedly Wendell Nielson is in charge but Merril Jessop is the one that seems to be running the show.

About the records:

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/may/02/bishops-record-lists-families-of-the-yfz-ranch/

The Bishop's Record, found in a safe on the YFZ Ranch, is a record of families whose fathers lived on the Schleicher County polygamist compound, according to court testimony last month.

The record, released Thursday by Tom Green County District Court, contains names, ages and locations for many of the men, women and children of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints living at the ranch

walton

05-02-2008, 07:46 PM

http://web.gosanangelo.com/pdf/BishopsList.pdf

I can't copy and paste anything cuz it is one of those pdf things.

Interesting stuff. 45 pages long and I am going to print the thing out.

:eek:

walton

05-02-2008, 08:32 PM

I saw only one Patricia Keate on the list. She is listed as a child.

Who was the Patricia Keate that listed Texas as her address when she supposedly went to see Warren?

evalles

05-02-2008, 08:39 PM

Originally posted by Devotion

These people think we're all stupid, including our Doctors.
IF this teen is just 15 or 16, how old would she have been when she got pregnant with her first child, who is now 20 months old ?

IS this Why JESSOP, father of the child is HIDING? IF you aren't breaking the law, why hide?

QUOTE:
The 1-day-old infant born to a teen is believed to be 15 or 16 years old.

The girl has claimed to be 18 and based on a bishop's record used during the custody hearing two weeks ago, she would be 18 now.
But officials believe she is younger and placed her in foster care with other children taken from the ranch.

The newborn is the teen's second child; the first is a 20-month-old boy.

The father of both children was identified as Jackson Jessop, 22,
but state officials say they don't know his whereabouts......jmo [/*]

If the state using the bishop's records to verify age ? If so, and the records show that she is 18, why is she in state custody ?
While I don't doubt the FLDS is capable of lying about the ages of the girls, I don't put it past the state either. Let's face it, after removing that many kids, they have to come up with a lot of "evidence" against these people. I read that CPS recently reclassified ? several girls that were 18 to juveniles. The way I understood it, they didn't reclassify them based on new info, they just decided to classify the 18 year olds as juveniles.

Remember when a poster said they would take this baby ?She/he was right.

Details

05-02-2008, 08:52 PM

The article didn't say the bishop's record was used by the state to determine age. If it had, obviously she'd be considered an adult. I think it's safe to expect that the bishop's record was referenced by a FLDS attorney, or referenced for other information in it.

FLDS lie - they know what they are doing is illegal.

The way you recall is not what has been reported. Several girls were reclassified based on their own admissions that they were not 18 and CPS believing them.

Nor did they take the baby. As a ward of the state, this girl's child is also a ward of the state - the judge's statement was just confirming this standard policy applied here. There's no statement the child has been removed from his mother, nor any reason they would, when all other infant and very young children of other FLDS underage mothers are still with their mothers.

tisamystery

05-02-2008, 09:17 PM

I'll bet the YFZ family tree is on a zip drive somewhere far away.

evalles

05-02-2008, 09:31 PM

Originally posted by Details
The article didn't say the bishop's record was used by the state to determine age. If it had, obviously she'd be considered an adult. I think it's safe to expect that the bishop's record was referenced by a FLDS attorney, or referenced for other information in it.

FLDS lie - they know what they are doing is illegal.

The way you recall is not what has been reported. Several girls were reclassified based on their own admissions that they were not 18 and CPS believing them.

Nor did they take the baby. As a ward of the state, this girl's child is also a ward of the state - the judge's statement was just confirming this standard policy applied here. There's no statement the child has been removed from his mother, nor any reason they would, when all other infant and very young children of other FLDS underage mothers are still with their mothers. [/*]

It wasn't from this article. I'll have to look for it, but it said they were using documents confiscated from the ranch to determine age.
She doesn't have custody of her baby. The state is in charge of whether she stays with her child or not.
What an awsome amount of power they have.

lotty

05-02-2008, 09:43 PM

Originally posted by walton
I saw only one Patricia Keate on the list. She is listed as a child.

Who was the Patricia Keate that listed Texas as her address when she supposedly went to see Warren? [/*]

IIRC The one I think is Patricia Keate that is redheaded and was on one of the first interviews. Said she was 17 or 18 yo, and was not married and had no children. I would bet money that redhead is Patricia Keate. Grinning like a "cheshire cat as she walked into court carrying folders and papers. As always JMO/IMO:lol:

Details

05-02-2008, 10:09 PM

Originally posted by evalles
It wasn't from this article. I'll have to look for it, but it said they were using documents confiscated from the ranch to determine age.
She doesn't have custody of her baby. The state is in charge of whether she stays with her child or not.
What an awsome amount of power they have. [/*]She has custody in the sense that the baby is with her. If she were to start abusing the baby, I'm sure it'd be rescued - and thank goodness for that! But like every other underage mother, and every other child of this cult while the investigation is happening, she and her son both are wards of the state.

And all evidence has shown CPS doing the right thing, time and time again - trying to keep the mothers with the children. Removing the mothers when they are telling children to lie and trying to hide the truth. Keeping nursing mothers who are underage with their children. There has not been a problem, nor any wholesale removal of mothers from children except due to the mothers own actions.

What an awesome responsibility they have. And how very well they are handling it - so much better than the other states where a few hundred children dumped on the side of the road is a misdemeanor that is too much trouble to prosecute or investigate.

walton

05-02-2008, 10:35 PM

Originally posted by lotty

IIRC The one I think is Patricia Keate that is redheaded and was on one of the first interviews. Said she was 17 or 18 yo, and was not married and had no children. I would bet money that redhead is Patricia Keate. Grinning like a "cheshire cat as she walked into court carrying folders and papers. As always JMO/IMO:lol: [/*]

:eek:

lotty you come back here and describe this scene for me will ya?

The same Patricia Keate that wrote Gov. Perry that she and the other "wives/mothers" were out of town during the raid?

The same Patricia Keate that supposedly visited Warren with Merrill and Naomi?

But there was no Patricia Keate listed that age. So who was/is she?

Is Warren alive?

giddyupalw

05-03-2008, 12:24 AM

Originally posted by spydernweb2006

They now use an xray method that I had done to test for Osteoporosis. You lay on your side and the xray sends a beam thru your hip and measures the bone density. Not painful at all and results are immed. The whole procedure takes 15 mins, tops.

JMHO

Hugs,

Spyder [/*]

You are right!! Just had this done... waiting for the results.

giddyupalw

05-03-2008, 12:39 AM

I have read some not all... so please be patient...

Why were the men not arrested in the raid??? May seem a stupid question but if they had probable cause... the men should have been questioned at least. It seems the men are just gone.

Details

05-03-2008, 01:00 AM

To arrest the men, they need to know which had sex with underage girls - hard to do with everyone changing names and ages all over the place. They know some are guilty, likely most or all - but which is more difficult, sufficient evidence to present to a judge and get an arrest warrent will take a little time.

Katprint

05-03-2008, 02:57 AM

Originally posted by Details
To arrest the men, they need to know which had sex with underage girls - hard to do with everyone changing names and ages all over the place. They know some are guilty, likely most or all - but which is more difficult, sufficient evidence to present to a judge and get an arrest warrent will take a little time. [/*]
The DNA tests will help a lot. I think the primary reason will be to determine which parents are eligible to ask the State of Texas for custody of which child, but I think the secondary reason will be to prosecute statutory rape. As I understand it, even if girls can get married at age 16 with a parent's consent, that does not make it legal for older men to have sex with girls under 18 without legally marrying them first. And if the older man is already legally married, then he cannot legally marry the 16 year old.

Also, I cannot help but wonder if the reason that so many FLDS "parents" resisted the DNA tests was not only fear of prosecutions, but also concern that there will be some children who lack biological parents. Has anybody else noticed the unusually high ratio of girl children? Were these extra girl children "reassigned" from their real parents elsewhere? Or did Dr. Barlow tell the real parents that their daughter(s) had died, then send their daughter(s) to their "new" parents? Who knows what further outrages we will discover?

Katprint
Always only my own opinion

LLaFren

05-03-2008, 07:08 AM

Originally posted by walton
http://web.gosanangelo.com/pdf/BishopsList.pdf

I can't copy and paste anything cuz it is one of those pdf things.

Interesting stuff. 45 pages long and I am going to print the thing out.

:eek: [/*]

Morning All, I'm going to PM CW and ask her to convert this thread to the week end thread so we can keep going.

Walton, your right this is interesting stuff, you know what caught my attention? The fact that the men list the wives (most of them a few didn't) but don't list what child belongs to what wife.

And if you get to page 37ish, family members residences start being listed as "hiding" or "house of hiding", what the h*** is that?:shrug:

Also, the younger the writer, the worse the handwriting is, my 2nd grader can write better than alot of the 19-22 year olds. While I realize that not everyone has clear handwriting, this was almost universal for that age group.

walton

05-03-2008, 08:34 AM

I wonder why Warrens list isn't there?
Merrill Jessop?
Willie Jessop?

Only 3 Barlows and one of them being the good Doctor with 4 wives in Short Creek with 15 children?

Wendell Nielson with 17 wives? Did he take over Warrens wives? or are they all his?

It would have been nice if the list included which kids belonged to which wife.

I haven't done the tally thing to see if this all matches up to 460 some kids.

Wow!! If there was any doubt as to why they took all the kids there is proof right here. imo

Dr. Phil had a show on just lately about the flds. In one of the pictures it mentioned that they had a molasses factory. Interesting don't you think?

walton

05-03-2008, 08:50 AM

Have they even had a service in the Temple? Who would hold it? Their Prophet has either been in hiding or in jail for some time.

So..... if there was no service... What were the beds in the Temple being used for?

I also looked for the other names of the women who wrote Gov. Perry. Couldn't see them.

walton

05-03-2008, 08:57 AM

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3217082

Mothers of children removed from a polygamous compound in Texas are appealing to the governor of Utah for help.

The mothers, in a letter that says it's from Willie Jessop, are asking Gov. Jon Huntsman to intervene on their behalf. They're claiming Texas officials won't accept legal Utah birth certificates and driver licenses as identification.

The letter goes on to decry what Jessop describes as "blatant criminal acts and civil rights violations" and asks the governor to visit the ranch to see for himself so he can help put a stop to it.

The letter: http://media.bonnint.net/slc/473/47369/4736919.pdf

Signed by Willie Jessop

GardenGirl

05-03-2008, 10:53 AM

Originally posted by walton
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3217082

Mothers of children removed from a polygamous compound in Texas are appealing to the governor of Utah for help.

The mothers, in a letter that says it's from Willie Jessop, are asking Gov. Jon Huntsman to intervene on their behalf. They're claiming Texas officials won't accept legal Utah birth certificates and driver licenses as identification.

The letter goes on to decry what Jessop describes as "blatant criminal acts and civil rights violations" and asks the governor to visit the ranch to see for himself so he can help put a stop to it.

The letter: http://media.bonnint.net/slc/473/47369/4736919.pdf

Signed by Willie Jessop [/*]

I do hope he goes on a rainy day. Otherwise, everyone who's left out there will be found doing Children's Tasks: gardening, hoeing, cleaning, repairing, building, cement-pouring, tree-cutting, blacksmithing, butchering and ice-hauling.
The usual for a Day At The Ranch.

At least on a rainy day one can ask him to help with the bean snapping and ironing.
O! I can't stand it.
I really can't blame Texas for wanting better proof, I don't doubt for a minute that the BC's look all messed up.....

lotty

05-03-2008, 11:03 AM

Originally posted by walton

:eek:

lotty you come back here and describe this scene for me will ya?

The same Patricia Keate that wrote Gov. Perry that she and the other "wives/mothers" were out of town during the raid?

The same Patricia Keate that supposedly visited Warren with Merrill and Naomi?

But there was no Patricia Keate listed that age. So who was/is she?

Is Warren alive? [/*]

JMO/IMO The person I believe to be Patricia Keate...the one that was not on the ranch during the raid, because she was out of the state of Texas. I think this is the same one that appeared on AC 360 or LKL, I can't remember which. She refused to give her name, she said she was 18 yo, this stuck in my head because she also said she was not married and had no children. I looked at my DH and asked how that could be(?) they are married off and having babies by the time they are 18. She is young. Always smiling "like the cat that caught the canary."
I don't know if Warren is alive. But, my best guess is this person is "Patricia Keate." As always JMO/IMO

Mimi428

05-03-2008, 06:14 PM

Originally posted by Katprint

The DNA tests will help a lot. I think the primary reason will be to determine which parents are eligible to ask the State of Texas for custody of which child, but I think the secondary reason will be to prosecute statutory rape. As I understand it, even if girls can get married at age 16 with a parent's consent, that does not make it legal for older men to have sex with girls under 18 without legally marrying them first. And if the older man is already legally married, then he cannot legally marry the 16 year old.

[/*]

<snipped>

I agree with that assessment.

First match the children to their mothers.

Then find the fathers.

Any father of a child born to a young woman who was a minor at the time of conception can have charges brought against him.

I think the trickiest ones are going to the the mothers of children who are 10 years old & older - they could have given birth to those children at ages 14-16 - but it is much more difficult to tell the difference between a 24-year-old mother with a 10 year old child & a 28-year-old mother with a 10 year old child.

JMO

Carol25

05-03-2008, 08:06 PM

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz

I'm only on page 19, but I've noticed a few things ...

One, looks like many members of these families remain in Short Creek.

Two, looks like in many cases, the first wife is around the same age as her husband, and then there's a much younger second wife. It's like these men wait until there's a few years (and babies) on the 'old ball-and-chain' and then they go out and pick out a brand new, much younger wife. Can't tell me those first wives aren't feeling the pinch of that. And can't tell me those men aren't absolutely thrilled that under the auspices of their religion, they get a shiny new toy to play with every few years.
barf

Three, looks like the good Dr. Lloyd Barlow's got himself quite a family ... every one of them in Short Creek. [/*]
If you keep going, you'll see they are from other places as well. A couple were in Idaho and two in houses of hiding. Thought those were for men only? Trying to escape?

walton

05-03-2008, 09:25 PM

Originally posted by lotty

JMO/IMO The person I believe to be Patricia Keate...the one that was not on the ranch during the raid, because she was out of the state of Texas. I think this is the same one that appeared on AC 360 or LKL, I can't remember which. She refused to give her name, she said she was 18 yo, this stuck in my head because she also said she was not married and had no children. I looked at my DH and asked how that could be(?) they are married off and having babies by the time they are 18. She is young. Always smiling "like the cat that caught the canary."
I don't know if Warren is alive. But, my best guess is this person is "Patricia Keate." As always JMO/IMO [/*]

Got it. I think.

Freebird

05-03-2008, 10:46 PM

Dale Barlow's warrant has been revoked!!! Nearly a month later and still no arrests.

Carol25

05-03-2008, 10:48 PM

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz

Carol - I noticed the 'hiding' locations. Why would anyone be in hiding in the middle of last year?

I wonder what the deal is with so many family members separated between Eldorado and 'Short Creek?' Looks like more than a few men were moved to Texas and all their wives and kids were left behind. Wonder what that's all about?

Inquiring minds and all that ...

:confused: [/*]
There were two things I heard. The most devout were taken to Texas or they were separating these families so fewer would be genetically inclined to carry the fumarase disease.

Maybe when they knew fumarase were showing up in certain families, they were trying to get the "pure" together (any women or chldren of women who had fumarase babies were left or moved to a certain compound?

I wonder if they have records of who had fumarase babies?

Some people who left the cult were looking for their siblings. Could these be the ones in the homes of hiding?

giddyupalw

05-04-2008, 11:40 AM

tisamystery

05-04-2008, 12:12 PM

Did they find any fumarase babies at YFZ?

Carol25

05-04-2008, 01:18 PM

Originally posted by tisamystery
Did they find any fumarase babies at YFZ? [/*]
Not that I have heard.

VC2

05-04-2008, 02:02 PM

Originally posted by Carol25

Not that I have heard. [/*]

Actually i think there may be one, remember the woman who said a mother was separated from her child who had downs and needed 24 hour care? I thought at the time that its unusual for downs to need 24 hour care and fumarase had been diagnosed as downs syndrome *4.

spydernweb2006

05-04-2008, 02:59 PM

For those that were wondering about ole Warren:

http://www.star-telegram.com/news/story/621541.html

JMHO but I hope the old pedo never sees the light of day and those that follow him in abusing children go right next to him in jail.

JMHO

Hugs,

Spyder

Carol25

05-04-2008, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by VC2

Actually i think there may be one, remember the woman who said a mother was separated from her child who had downs and needed 24 hour care? I thought at the time that its unusual for downs to need 24 hour care and fumarase had been diagnosed as downs syndrome *4. [/*]
Not being a doctor I certainly coudn't be qualified as an expert, but from what we have read it seems that those conditions are very different. Perhaps it was Dr. Barlow that was making those diagnoses?
Actually all babies need 24 hour care, but DS babies are more like normal babies than fumarase babies. The fumarase babies need help in feeding, sitting..just everything as long as it lives, and I believe they are more prone to gross deformities, unlike DS babies.

Was that mother older? I believe DS happens more in older mothers than younger mothers.

Carol25

05-04-2008, 03:27 PM

Originally posted by walton
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3217082

Mothers of children removed from a polygamous compound in Texas are appealing to the governor of Utah for help.

The mothers, in a letter that says it's from Willie Jessop, are asking Gov. Jon Huntsman to intervene on their behalf. They're claiming Texas officials won't accept legal Utah birth certificates and driver licenses as identification.

The letter goes on to decry what Jessop describes as "blatant criminal acts and civil rights violations" and asks the governor to visit the ranch to see for himself so he can help put a stop to it.

The letter: http://media.bonnint.net/slc/473/47369/4736919.pdf

Signed by Willie Jessop [/*]
After reading this letter, I was wondering if Texas has made a rubber stamp to quickly identify these letters for what they are. A simple "CONSIDER THE SOURCE" stamped at the top would be appropriate for proper filing of these letters.

xray ra

05-04-2008, 03:32 PM

I have posted before as a medical professional. I know there are tests that can approximate age thru radiographs. Does anyone know if there are any tests that can more accurately determine the age of a person thru blood tests?
IMO They should no more rely on the written records of the FLDS for the age of the children as of the parentage of the children.
BTW. Based on the "bishops report" NONE of those children should EVER .......EVER.... be returned to these sick men and women,. JMO IMO ectt..........:cuss:

Carol25

05-04-2008, 03:37 PM

Originally posted by xray ra
I have posted before as a medical professional. I know there are tests that can approximate age thru radiographs. Does anyone know if there are any tests that can more accurately determine the age of a person thru blood tests?
IMO They should no more rely on the written records of the FLDS for the age of the children as of the parentage of the children.
BTW. Based on the "bishops report" NONE of those children should EVER .......EVER.... be returned to these sick men and women,. JMO IMO ectt..........:cuss: [/*]
Do you think that possibly the older children will in time feel freer to talk and give their ages? They might even give their birthdates and the fathers name. They are more likely to know who their father is rather than their mother, don't you think?

xray ra

05-04-2008, 03:51 PM

Originally posted by Carol25

Do you think that possibly the older children will in time feel freer to talk and give their ages? They might even give their birthdates and the fathers name. They are more likely to know who their father is rather than their mother, don't you think? [/*]

Maybe, but I don't think my kids would have known what their birthdates were if I didn't tell them. One of my sons was born on Feb 16.1984. Well I could have told him his birthday was July 5, 1983, or Oct 20. 1985 He was a big kid. See what I mean. How would he really know.
If my husband left me before his first BD and I remarried I could have told him his step-father was his father. Kids just believe what their mothers tell them.
The bishop record just has ages, no DOB. Some kids could have been small ,some big. :shrug:
Eventually, they would see their real birth certificates but with the FDLS even those are suspect !!!!

Carol25

05-04-2008, 05:21 PM

Originally posted by xray ra

Maybe, but I don't think my kids would have known what their birthdates were if I didn't tell them. One of my sons was born on Feb 16.1984. Well I could have told him his birthday was July 5, 1983, or Oct 20. 1985 He was a big kid. See what I mean. How would he really know.
If my husband left me before his first BD and I remarried I could have told him his step-father was his father. Kids just believe what their mothers tell them.
The bishop record just has ages, no DOB. Some kids could have been small ,some big. :shrug:
Eventually, they would see their real birth certificates but with the FDLS even those are suspect !!!! [/*]
I see what you mean. But some of the children would know who the "father" would be if he was in the home. Of course, that doesn't account for all of the children and fathers who were
moved." what a horrible mess. (how many times has this been said on this board...whew!) Guess someone would have to go to all of the compounds to get DNA. Impossible.

Wonder if the FLDS fathers aren't coming forward for DNA because they feel, "Oh well, we just lost a couple of batches of kids. We'll just have to make more." Afterall, that's an easier solution than going to jail, now isn't it?

As awful as that sounds, are the children anymore than the usual propagators of the unit and nothing more?

Details

05-04-2008, 06:09 PM

Reading on the links thread - anyone else feel like Utah/Mormonism is more than slightly complicit - not that they endorse it - but that they're ready to turn a blind eye, and defend the FLDS on any pretext possible?

Between their statements, how the FLDS seems to think appealing to the Utah governor will work, abandoning children is a misdemeanor that even so the DA can't be bothered to prosecute, and some encounters with Mormons who seem all too ready to call this religion rather than pedophilia.

I've spoken to plenty of Mormons who find the FLDS horrible, hate the way their actions tend to taint people's perceptions of the Mormon religion - but there also seem to be some or many who either don't disagree so much, or find it to be a sibling religion, or identify the treatment of true Mormonism with how the cult FLDS are treated. So, the cult is defended, IMO, more than it should be, by Utah's government (as a majority Mormon state, the government there is significantly Mormon).

Roux

05-04-2008, 06:56 PM

The remarks made by the Utah official are shocking. Texas has gone too far the attorney general says. Well buster you've done nothing for years and now reject Harry Reid's call for a task force saying you've got a handle on it.

There are many good people in the LDS church, but the state of Utah is a perfect example why there should be separation of church and state. By far the majority of the people in Utah are Mormons and they have just ignored these crimes for years.

xray ra

05-04-2008, 07:10 PM

Originally posted by Carol25

I see what you mean. But some of the children would know who the "father" would be if he was in the home. Of course, that doesn't account for all of the children and fathers who were
moved." what a horrible mess. (how many times has this been said on this board...whew!) Guess someone would have to go to all of the compounds to get DNA. Impossible.

Wonder if the FLDS fathers aren't coming forward for DNA because they feel, "Oh well, we just lost a couple of batches of kids. We'll just have to make more." Afterall, that's an easier solution than going to jail, now isn't it?

As awful as that sounds, are the children anymore than the usual propagators of the unit and nothing more? [/*]

ITA What a mess.
Do you think that some state or Fed agency has the males DNA on file from prior arrests? IE: Many have been charged , but not convicted on various misdemeanor and felony counts of fraud and abuse, ect. in Arizona and Utah. I think that many states have required DNA as well as fingerprints be taken when people are arrested, even for DUI .?
I don't know for sure because I've never been arrested!!!:)
As seen on TV!:confused:

xray ra

05-04-2008, 07:17 PM

Originally posted by Roux
The remarks made by the Utah official are shocking. Texas has gone too far the attorney general says. Well buster you've done nothing for years and now reject Harry Reid's call for a task force saying you've got a handle on it.

There are many good people in the LDS church, but the state of Utah is a perfect example why there should be separation of church and state. By far the majority of the people in Utah are Mormons and they have just ignored these crimes for years. [/*]

I am very suspicious of the Attorney General of the State of Utah saying he doesn't want any investigation of the FDLS by the United States Government in HIS state. What a crock!! What is he hiding? What has been going on during his tenure? Who is paying him off?
Like I always say:FOLLOW THE MONEY!!! :flamemad:

ETA: I might even change my siggy line;)

walton

05-04-2008, 08:23 PM

Originally posted by xray ra

I am very suspicious of the Attorney General of the State of Utah saying he doesn't want any investigation of the FDLS by the United States Government in HIS state. What a crock!! What is he hiding? What has been going on during his tenure? Who is paying him off?
Like I always say:FOLLOW THE MONEY!!! :flamemad:

ETA: I might even change my siggy line;) [/*]

Well it sure makes me wonder.

I think his statements should come with a pair of hip waders or one big shovel. jmo

walton

05-04-2008, 08:38 PM

Originally posted by Details
Reading on the links thread - anyone else feel like Utah/Mormonism is more than slightly complicit - not that they endorse it - but that they're ready to turn a blind eye, and defend the FLDS on any pretext possible?

Between their statements, how the FLDS seems to think appealing to the Utah governor will work, abandoning children is a misdemeanor that even so the DA can't be bothered to prosecute, and some encounters with Mormons who seem all too ready to call this religion rather than pedophilia.

I've spoken to plenty of Mormons who find the FLDS horrible, hate the way their actions tend to taint people's perceptions of the Mormon religion - but there also seem to be some or many who either don't disagree so much, or find it to be a sibling religion, or identify the treatment of true Mormonism with how the cult FLDS are treated. So, the cult is defended, IMO, more than it should be, by Utah's government (as a majority Mormon state, the government there is significantly Mormon). [/*]

I agree. President Hinckley said for years that there was no such thing as Mormon Fundamentalists. To this day I still can't figure out how he could say that and mean it.

I do remember though that there was talk about the way that the Mormons were treated very early on.. and so many feel it is not there place to put down or defend anothers Religion. I can respect that. And I did respect that all the way....... until the Missionary told me that I would not be allowed into Heaven unless I was Mormon.

I figure he has his opinon and I have mine.

evalles

05-04-2008, 08:43 PM

Originally posted by Carol25

I see what you mean. But some of the children would know who the "father" would be if he was in the home. Of course, that doesn't account for all of the children and fathers who were
moved." what a horrible mess. (how many times has this been said on this board...whew!) Guess someone would have to go to all of the compounds to get DNA. Impossible.

Wonder if the FLDS fathers aren't coming forward for DNA because they feel, "Oh well, we just lost a couple of batches of kids. We'll just have to make more." Afterall, that's an easier solution than going to jail, now isn't it?

As awful as that sounds, are the children anymore than the usual propagators of the unit and nothing more? [/*]

IMO, they're not being tested for one of two reasons.

1. To avoid criminal prosecution because they've had sex with minors.
or
2. To avoid child support. Parents have to pay based on income for kids while in state custody, the court can't order them to pay support until paternity has been established. I'm sure the women don't have any assetts in their names and these men have a lot of $$. Having to pay support for 10-20 kids would be a big motivator to avoid paternity testing.

Carol25

05-04-2008, 10:21 PM

Originally posted by xray ra

I am very suspicious of the Attorney General of the State of Utah saying he doesn't want any investigation of the FDLS by the United States Government in HIS state. What a crock!! What is he hiding? What has been going on during his tenure? Who is paying him off?
Like I always say:FOLLOW THE MONEY!!! :flamemad:

ETA: I might even change my siggy line;) [/*]

I do hope many citizens of Utah learn of this and wonder as well. It makes me think the investigation could lead to cover ups all of the state into his office. This letter is certainly an indication.

Freebird

05-04-2008, 11:30 PM

Why is it the Austrian guy and Michael Devlin were both were arrested right off the bat for their crimes but no one has been arrested in this case?

evalles

05-04-2008, 11:54 PM

Originally posted by Freebird
Why is it the Austrian guy and Michael Devlin were both were arrested right off the bat for their crimes but no one has been arrested in this case? [/*]

These are very different cases, in the cases you mentioned they had sufficient evidence to prove a crime had been committed.
;)

withay

05-05-2008, 12:56 AM

Originally posted by VC2

Actually i think there may be one, remember the woman who said a mother was separated from her child who had downs and needed 24 hour care? I thought at the time that its unusual for downs to need 24 hour care and fumarase had been diagnosed as downs syndrome *4. [/*]

There is a wide range of levels of disability as far as Downs Syndrome is concerned. Some people with Downs are able to live alone with just a little supervision. But my college roomate has a son who has never developed beyond about the level of a 6/8 month old. He has to be fed, diapered, carried, etc. And while DS is most commonly thought of as something that happens to older mothers, sometimes it "just happens". She was under 30.

Carol25

05-05-2008, 02:28 AM

Originally posted by grammybear
I do not take offense at what others have to say about the LDS church and I certainly cannot answer for other people. But from my point of view The FLDS crossed the line when they abused these children and they should face the punishment.
I think we all have things in our previous family history that we are probably embarassed about but my whole theiry is to learn from the lessons of the past and try and make the future of our children better.

I had not known a lot about the polygamist until the last few years but I have compassion and empathy for these women and children. I cannot do much to help these children but I feel it is very important for me to learn as much as I can and think about ways that life could be better.

I know a lot of people think the LDS church has many secrets and are like a cult, and I will not bring religion up when talking about these cases but I feel as long as I myself give other people the same consideration as what I would like for people to treat me, then I feel I am doing right. I try not to judge people, but there comes a point where you see both sides of a situation and do make an informed opinion.

I do feel that these women have been so ingrained in the thinking of the FLDS people that most of these people men included that they can no longer think for themselves.

I also feel that all of society should be held responsible for our own actions. It is wrong how this group put fear and threats to these people if they do not do what they are told. They have crossed the line from being this is all about religion to breaking the law. Anybody that uses their religion for their own selfish, greedy needs, should be punished by the law.

I am not sure what to think what is going on in the minds of the governing officials and it does bother me that nothing is being done to protect these children. I do not know if I will ever understand, but my concerns are with not only the FLDS children but all children that are living in dysfunctional family settings.

jmoo [/*]
Grammybear, I have read your posts from some time now and I agree with you completely. Our discussion here is about the FLDS and how it continues in our society without intervention. This IS terrible, just as you said, all dysfunctional families. Even though we can't solve all of the ills, the FLDS is just so obvious, it would certainly be a great starting point for many of us to become involved somehow to save some children's lives of continued neglect and abuse.

You are such a good hearted and wise person. I just wanted you to know I appreciate all you have shared with us.

Carol25

05-05-2008, 02:33 AM

Originally posted by withay

There is a wide range of levels of disability as far as Downs Syndrome is concerned. Some people with Downs are able to live alone with just a little supervision. But my college roomate has a son who has never developed beyond about the level of a 6/8 month old. He has to be fed, diapered, carried, etc. And while DS is most commonly thought of as something that happens to older mothers, sometimes it "just happens". She was under 30. [/*]
Thank you, withay. I didn't know that DS could be so extreme. I was looking at what VC2 posted and looked up DS *4 and DS 4. Wasn't sure if what I was reading was what you are talking about. But I appreciate the information. That is very sad, indeed.
Thanks to VC2 for the information, too!

Carol25

05-05-2008, 02:34 AM

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz

My guess is that the men of the FLDS who have committed statutory rape and other abuses against children are now and will continue to be very difficult to locate. One random arrest will only signal to these men that they need to burrow even deeper in their hidey holes. When the arrests come, my guess is that they'll come in a simultaneous sweep and will involve federal authorities and authorities in several states. [/*]
I agree, GGW. The question is...wil Utah cooperate?

Details

05-05-2008, 03:10 AM

Originally posted by Freebird
Why is it the Austrian guy and Michael Devlin were both were arrested right off the bat for their crimes but no one has been arrested in this case? [/*]In those cases, not only did they know that a crime was committed, but who, exactly, committed the crime. We've got pregnant teenagers, abused kids - but who did it? That has to be resolved. DNA tests will tell - but thus far, for some reason....;) the men have not been coming out much to be tested. As in all domestic violence cases, getting the victims to talk can take awhile.

Carol25

05-05-2008, 03:17 AM

Originally posted by grammybear
Carol thank you for those kind words, I do appreciate it.
I know there has been such speculation on what is going on with the FLDS but I think I would be afraid that if the authorities just went in and took all the children without evidence of abuse that the children would have to be given back to this group. Their life could be much worse then it already is.

I do not agree with polygamy but until they started had these jokes of marriages going on nobody really bothered them.Jeffs can only blame himself for this. I do not even know where to start in the thinking of having so many wives. Personnaly I would never want another woman living in my house and sharing my husband that just feels so wrong with me.

I have also given a lot of thought about decriminlizing polygamy, where they no longer had to hide that I think this group will finally break up. My concerns are for the children only. The adults have all made their choices and I think it is a shame that the parents of these children allow their daughters to marry much older men.

As far as Hilldale Utah I suspect this group or most of them will move on maybe outside of the united states. The FLDS will be opening a can of worms if they decriminalize polygamy. They won't have to be in hiding but they would be responsible for paying their own way. That is going to make a lot of these men to disappear so that they do not have to pay child support. Anyone in society should be paying their own way. I am appalled by the welfare rolls that the regular taxpayer have to pay.
My husband and I were seperated at one time and I went on welfare because of our three children, but once we got back together we did make arrangements to pay all that money back to the state. We did not want anything for free and we wanted to carry our own way.
I am not sure if any of these women will even be able to get help go to school and learn some skills so they can support themselves but that will have to happen and I suspect these women are nothing but zombies because of all the brainwashing.

jmoo [/*]
My heavens, Grammybear! I have never heard of anyone paying back the gov't. for support they received once they got on their feet again! You and your husband are just wonders! You could be a model for all of us!

i agree with you about decriminalizing polygamy and sharing your husband. (I shared mine (EX) with many other women, but that's another story...it was called just plain adultery! )

I don't know what the answer is for these women when it comes to getting jobs, but we know one thing...all or most can sew very well. Perhaps there will be a cottage industry for them! Even if these ladies were subsidized with support from the government, it would cost a great deal less as it does now.

You give that great husband of yours a great big hug tonight and let him know that someone on the board thinks you are both marvelous people! :D

LLaFren

05-05-2008, 06:20 AM

Wow, Utah, Arizona says they're the reason the FLDS moved to TX.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080504/NATION/727258444/1002

After all, the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints resided for nearly a century on the Utah-Arizona border before building a compound in Eldorado, Texas.

And that, says Mr. Shurtleff, is the point. The FLDS didn't suddenly relocate three years ago on a whim — it was driven out by law-enforcement crackdowns in Utah and Arizona targeting corruption and sex abuse in polygamist communities.

"We can document that they wouldn't be in Texas if we hadn't cracked down on them," said Mr. Shurtleff, a Republican. "Their move to Texas was a direct response to us telling them we wouldn't tolerate incest, crimes against children or domestic violence.

"As soon as they saw we were serious," he said, "they started buying land in Texas."

The article goes on about how the crackdowns are continuing.

spageddy

05-05-2008, 08:07 AM

It sounds like "whack-a mole". Crack down in one place and they pop up somewhere else. They're probably underground "multplying" like crazy right now.

LLaFren

05-05-2008, 08:28 AM

Originally posted by spageddy
It sounds like "whack-a mole". Crack down in one place and they pop up somewhere else. They're probably underground "multplying" like crazy right now. [/*]

:lol:

xray ra

05-05-2008, 09:48 AM

Originally posted by LLaFren

:lol: [/*]

:seeya: Morning LLaFren. Did you PM CW to STICKY today's thread? I wouldn't dare. hehe:)

Devotion

05-05-2008, 11:14 AM

quote:
Originally posted by xray ra

I am very suspicious of the Attorney General of the State of Utah saying he doesn't want any investigation of the FDLS by the United States Government in HIS state.

What a crock!! What is he hiding?

What has been going on during his tenure?

Who is paying him off??

Like I always say:FOLLOW THE MONEY!!!

ETA: I might even change my siggy line [/*]

Originally posted by Carol25

I do hope many citizens of Utah learn of this and wonder as well.

It makes me think the investigation could lead to cover ups all over the state into his office.

This letter is certainly an indication. [/*]

All good common sense points!
BIG Money or family-ties will usually keep one's eyes and ears shut!....jmo

LLaFren

05-05-2008, 01:13 PM

Originally posted by xray ra

:seeya: Morning LLaFren. Did you PM CW to STICKY today's thread? I wouldn't dare. hehe:) [/*]

I knew I forgot to do something this morning!

I just PM'd CW, hopefully she'll catch it soon.

Ok, lunch over, see you guys after work!

LL
:seeya:

Ladyhawk

05-05-2008, 02:03 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by walton
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3217082

Mothers of children removed from a polygamous compound in Texas are appealing to the governor of Utah for help.

The mothers, in a letter that says it's from Willie Jessop, are asking Gov. Jon Huntsman to intervene on their behalf. They're claiming Texas officials won't accept legal Utah birth certificates and driver licenses as identification.

The letter goes on to decry what Jessop describes as "blatant criminal acts and civil rights violations" and asks the governor to visit the ranch to see for himself so he can help put a stop to it.

The letter: http://media.bonnint.net/slc/473/47369/4736919.pdf

Signed by Willie Jessop [/*][/QUOT

It's a Texas state law that a person moving into the state has 30 days to apply for a Texas drivers license. After 30 days of residency, the out-of-state DL cannot be used as valid ID. Officials in Texas are correct in not recognizing their Utah DLs as valid ID. It's just one more state law the FLDS has chosen to ignore.

Here are a couple of links to the Texas DPS. The first one covers moving to Texas and what you need to do. The 2nd one is what the DPS considers identification requirements.

moving to Texas (http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/driver_licensing_control/movingtotexas.htm)

Identification requirements (http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/driver_licensing_control/identificationrequirements.htm)

Not even the public libraries in Texas would consider a Utah DL valid ID for the issuance of a library card to a person now residing in Texas....the person would have to come back with a valid Texas ID.

Crying to the Governor of a state where they used to live???? puleeze spare me the drama!

moo

Rainkiss

05-05-2008, 02:18 PM

In most cases, a birth certificate isn't actually proof of identity, either, on its own. If you're filling out an I-9 form to get a job, a birth certificate can be used to prove your eligibility to work, but it MUST be paired with an ID such as a driver's license. Trouble with a birth certificate is that most if not all lack any way of proving that the person holding the certificate actually is the person NAMED on the certificate.

I'm impressed by the letter. Word list:

atrocities, siege, hostage, ransacked, desecrated...

How do they figure the governor of Utah has any "executive authority" to exercise in this case, anyway?

And, just a side note... Howcome a letter on the letterhead of the "Mothers and Children of the YFZ Ranch" is signed by a man?

xray ra

05-05-2008, 02:44 PM

[i]Originally posted by walton [/

Mothers of children removed from a polygamous compound in Texas are appealing to the governor of Utah for help.
The mothers, in a letter that says it's from Willie Jessop, are asking Gov. Jon Huntsman to intervene on their behalf. They're claiming Texas officials won't accept legal Utah birth certificates and driver licenses as identification.
The letter goes on to decry what Jessop describes as "blatant criminal acts and civil rights violations" and asks the governor to visit the ranch to see for himself so he can help put a stop to it.

http://media.bonnint.net/slc/473/47369/4736919.pdf[/url]

Signed by Willie Jessop [/*][/QUOT

It's a Texas state law that a person moving into the state has 30 days to apply for a Texas drivers license. After 30 days of residency, the out-of-state DL cannot be used as valid ID. Officials in Texas are correct in not recognizing their Utah DLs as valid ID. It's just one more state law the FLDS has chosen to ignore.

Here are a couple of links to the Texas DPS. The first one covers moving to Texas and what you need to do. The 2nd one is what the DPS considers identification requirements.

moving to Texas (http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/driver_licensing_control/movingtotexas.htm)

Identification requirements (http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/driver_licensing_control/identificationrequirements.htm)
Not even the public libraries in Texas would consider a Utah DL valid ID for the issuance of a library card to a person now residing in Texas....the person would have to come back with a valid Texas ID.
Crying to the Governor of a state where they used to live???? puleeze spare me the drama!
[/*]

Great Links, but what about minors? I tried to find information on how to prove that minors were residents of Texas. How did the FDLS do that? All I know is that I had to have SS # for my kids to claim them on my tax returns. I didn't have a SS# until I was 15 yrs old (1968) . My oldest son had a SS# when he 5 or 6; 1980's.
I thought that now all children are given SS# at birth. Right? or Wrong?
If right, each child can be tracked by benefits paid.
If wrong, well, I guess we missed the bus on this one.
hammer

lotty

05-05-2008, 05:12 PM

JMO/IMO Has anyone looked at the latest photos of YFZ? It is starting to look bad, the beautiful green grass around the temple is starting to look like no one is watering it. It is turning brown. Is there an exodus underway? Does anyone think they will abandon the compound? As always JMO/IMO

Rainkiss

05-05-2008, 05:32 PM

Originally posted by lotty
JMO/IMO Has anyone looked at the latest photos of YFZ? It is starting to look bad, the beautiful green grass around the temple is starting to look like no one is watering it. It is turning brown. Is there an exodus underway? Does anyone think they will abandon the compound? As always JMO/IMO [/*]

Hard to tell, it depends on what happens. If the majority of the children are returned, they'll chalk it in the victory column and settle back in. Otherwise, they'll likely melt away to the compounds in states where they're not so closely watched.

xray ra

05-05-2008, 05:58 PM

Originally posted by Rainkiss

Hard to tell, it depends on what happens. If the majority of the children are returned, they'll chalk it in the victory column and settle back in. Otherwise, they'll likely melt away to the compounds in states where they're not so closely watched. [/*]

I don't think that life will ever be the same at the ranch again, thank God. But it is a beautiful property. Great for organic farming. Some development has already been done so that maybe it can be continued..
I know that the Amish/Mennottite(sp) in my area have communities that make the best butter and eggs ever. Also great herbs, and veges. The girls drive regular cars, although they wear traditional amish clothing. Farming methods are also "old-fashioned". But they get they get the job done. They truly have have an open community.
I don't know anything about their religion, but I respect their lifestyle!!

walton

05-05-2008, 06:49 PM

Really off topic here. What is with the TEST ?

If I win, do I finally get the coffee cup? :D

LLaFren

05-05-2008, 07:06 PM

Totally off thread here, but normally I come home to tons of posts, I can tell I'm not the only one who had a Monday today!

Hey Walton, if anyone deserves a cup it's you and grammybear, you guys have been keeping me informed long before I officially joined the boards!

walton

05-05-2008, 07:09 PM

Someone posted a newspaper link talking about Warrens health and how he was doing in prison. I was going to respond but got sidetracked.

Anyway today I saw an article over at the Trib and then Brookes latest entry on her blog.

I think that someone is messing with reporters. Not sure who it is but one day those in charge say he is talking on cell phones and alone in his cell.

Another was quoted that Warren is on Suicide watch and very thin.

Now today he is healthy and doing his thing.

Reporters fault? Naw, I don't think so. I check out who is doing the reporting to see if they have a good background and they do and have. Someone is messing with them.

I wonder if Warren isn't in some hospital someplace and they just don't dare say or.........who know's where Warren is. Haven't seen him since the day before he was sentenced.

One day the cameras were there and then BAM the next day they weren't.

He supposedly shows up at the next court hearing - no cameras and surrounded by police using sheets so people can't see the REAL person going into the jail. So who knows.

I remember trying to track someone down that was listed as a Prisoner in Utah Draper Prison and he was actually in northern Utah on a work release program. Not saying that is what happened to Warren.

I wouldn't trust what Shurtleff had to say.
I wouldn't trust what Goddard had to say.
I wouldn't go by what that one FBI guy had to say. He believed what Shurtleff and Goddard had to say. Oy

Sheriff Doran wouldn't stretch the truth.
Gary Engle wouldn't stretch the truth.
Judge Shumate wouldn't stretch the truth.
Judge Denise Lindberg wouldn't stretch the truth.
Bruce Wissan wouldn't stretch the truth.

Someone is messing with the reporters. jmo

Carol25

05-05-2008, 07:09 PM

Originally posted by LLaFren
Wow, Utah, Arizona says they're the reason the FLDS moved to TX.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080504/NATION/727258444/1002

After all, the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints resided for nearly a century on the Utah-Arizona border before building a compound in Eldorado, Texas.

And that, says Mr. Shurtleff, is the point. The FLDS didn't suddenly relocate three years ago on a whim — it was driven out by law-enforcement crackdowns in Utah and Arizona targeting corruption and sex abuse in polygamist communities.

"We can document that they wouldn't be in Texas if we hadn't cracked down on them," said Mr. Shurtleff, a Republican. "Their move to Texas was a direct response to us telling them we wouldn't tolerate incest, crimes against children or domestic violence.

"As soon as they saw we were serious," he said, "they started buying land in Texas."

The article goes on about how the crackdowns are continuing. [/*]
Right, some crack downs :rolleyes: FLDS was just looking for more compounds around the country so they could keep confusing authorities with family members and hiding the men from one compound to another!
Another reason for the move to Texas could have been to arrest the fumarase gene. Shurtleff..get your head out of the sand! :cuss: No one is going to fall for your **.

Carol25

05-05-2008, 07:20 PM

Originally posted by walton
Someone posted a newspaper link talking about Warrens health and how he was doing in prison. I was going to respond but got sidetracked.

Anyway today I saw an article over at the Trib and then Brookes latest entry on her blog.

I think that someone is messing with reporters. Not sure who it is but one day those in charge say he is talking on cell phones and alone in his cell.

Another was quoted that Warren is on Suicide watch and very thin.

Now today he is healthy and doing his thing.

Reporters fault? Naw, I don't think so. I check out who is doing the reporting to see if they have a good background and they do and have. Someone is messing with them.

I wonder if Warren isn't in some hospital someplace and they just don't dare say or.........who know's where Warren is. Haven't seen him since the day before he was sentenced.

One day the cameras were there and then BAM the next day they weren't.

He supposedly shows up at the next court hearing - no cameras and surrounded by police using sheets so people can't see the REAL person going into the jail. So who knows.

I remember trying to track someone down that was listed as a Prisoner in Utah Draper Prison and he was actually in northern Utah on a work release program. Not saying that is what happened to Warren.

I wouldn't trust what Shurtleff had to say.
I wouldn't trust what Goddard had to say.
I wouldn't go by what that one FBI guy had to say. He believed what Shurtleff and Goddard had to say. Oy

Sheriff Doran wouldn't stretch the truth.
Gary Engle wouldn't stretch the truth.
Judge Shumate wouldn't stretch the truth.
Judge Denise Lindberg wouldn't stretch the truth.
Bruce Wissan wouldn't stretch the truth.

Someone is messing with the reporters. jmo [/*]

Hmmm...."one day those in charge say he is talking on cell phones and alone in his cell."

"He supposedly shows up at the next court hearing - no cameras and surrounded by police using sheets so people can't see the REAL person going into the jail. So who knows."

If it wasn't Utah, I wouldn't be so suspicious. Wish they had an FBI informant in in the next cell.

Roux

05-05-2008, 07:24 PM

Carol25

05-05-2008, 07:35 PM

Originally posted by Roux

A minor point perhaps, but I'm confused about the statement regarding Jeffs having a cell phone. I don't believe convicted felons in prision can have cell phones. Does he have special privileges? [/*]
Sounds like it, doesn't it Roux? And it would not be recorded by authorities. Makes you wonder...

xray ra

05-05-2008, 08:14 PM

Originally posted by Carol25

Sounds like it, doesn't it Roux? And it would not be recorded by authorities. Makes you wonder... [/*]

He is a convicted felon in the State of Utah. But is awaiting trial on rape charges in the county jail in King City, Arizona . County jail is supposedly more restrictive than prison. All calls and visits are tape recorded. All mail is censored. Ect..
I wonder, who is the senior Senator of the State of Arizona?
Hmmmmmmm????????
:chicken:

KatyDid

05-05-2008, 08:43 PM

Originally posted by xray ra

He is a convicted felon in the State of Utah. But is awaiting trial on rape charges in the county jail in King City, Arizona . County jail is supposedly more restrictive than prison. All calls and visits are tape recorded. All mail is censored. Ect..
I wonder, who is the senior Senator of the State of Arizona?
Hmmmmmmm????????
:chicken: [/*]

Is/was John McCain, the now Republican candidate for president.

xray ra

05-05-2008, 09:12 PM

Originally posted by KatyDid

Is/was John McCain, the now Republican candidate for president. [/*]

Why, yes, yes he , is. He has been in charge of the Senate Seat for the State of Arizona for many, many years now. I wonder what he has been doing or thinking about the FDLS issue in his jurisdiction? Again, Hmmmmmm??:chicken: :punch:

Not saying a thing.

KatyDid

05-05-2008, 11:13 PM

Originally posted by xray ra

Why, yes, yes he , is. He has been in charge of the Senate Seat for the State of Arizona for many, many years now. I wonder what he has been doing or thinking about the FDLS issue in his jurisdiction? Again, Hmmmmmm??:chicken: :punch:

Not saying a thing. [/*]

Nuttin~he is one of the ostriches, IMO.

:D

juliekan

05-06-2008, 12:44 AM

Originally posted by walton
Someone posted a newspaper link talking about Warrens health and how he was doing in prison. I was going to respond but got sidetracked.

Anyway today I saw an article over at the Trib and then Brookes latest entry on her blog.

I think that someone is messing with reporters. Not sure who it is but one day those in charge say he is talking on cell phones and alone in his cell.

Another was quoted that Warren is on Suicide watch and very thin.

Now today he is healthy and doing his thing.

Reporters fault? Naw, I don't think so. I check out who is doing the reporting to see if they have a good background and they do and have. Someone is messing with them.

I wonder if Warren isn't in some hospital someplace and they just don't dare say or.........who know's where Warren is. Haven't seen him since the day before he was sentenced.

One day the cameras were there and then BAM the next day they weren't.

He supposedly shows up at the next court hearing - no cameras and surrounded by police using sheets so people can't see the REAL person going into the jail. So who knows.

I remember trying to track someone down that was listed as a Prisoner in Utah Draper Prison and he was actually in northern Utah on a work release program. Not saying that is what happened to Warren.

I wouldn't trust what Shurtleff had to say.
I wouldn't trust what Goddard had to say.
I wouldn't go by what that one FBI guy had to say. He believed what Shurtleff and Goddard had to say. Oy

Sheriff Doran wouldn't stretch the truth.
Gary Engle wouldn't stretch the truth.
Judge Shumate wouldn't stretch the truth.
Judge Denise Lindberg wouldn't stretch the truth.
Bruce Wissan wouldn't stretch the truth.

Someone is messing with the reporters. jmo [/*]
Bless you, no one could have said it better....I'm appalled at Shurtleff.:chicken:

LLaFren

05-06-2008, 07:25 AM

Wow, check it out A Dad speaks out (why only one?).

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_9155045

FLDS custody case: Month after ranch raid, polygamous dad speaks out

ELDORADO, Texas - As Richard Barlow walked eight of his children to a bus that would take them away from the YFZ Ranch, he gave each one advice.
"I spoke very freely. I said, 'Let us be at peace,' " he said.
And: "Be strong."

Why is he the only one talking?

LLaFren

05-06-2008, 07:27 AM

:seeya:

Morning all, I started the new daily thread, and posted an article about a dad speaking up.

See you at lunch!

LL

lotty

05-06-2008, 07:40 AM

Originally posted by LLaFren
Wow, check it out A Dad speaks out (why only one?).

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_9155045

FLDS custody case: Month after ranch raid, polygamous dad speaks out

ELDORADO, Texas - As Richard Barlow walked eight of his children to a bus that would take them away from the YFZ Ranch, he gave each one advice.
"I spoke very freely. I said, 'Let us be at peace,' " he said.
And: "Be strong."

Why is he the only one talking? [/*]

according to the link above...
"But Barlow, 40, decided to take that risk to share how the event has torn apart his family.
Barlow, a college graduate, was 23 when he married 20-year-old Susan, his legal wife. Their first child, a daughter, is now 15. Seven more children followed, ages 4 to 13.
He has two plural wives, according to court documents, both of whom his attorney says were 18 when they married. One woman has five children. The other has none."

According to the Bishop's Record...Richard Barlow has 3 wives and 13 children, names and ages match for the most part, one year ago all are listed at Short Creek. I can understand why the State of Texas is having a difficult time.:confused:

lotty

05-06-2008, 08:46 AM

Well LLaFren,
I guess if everyone is leaving to be closer to their children, then that would answer my question from yesterday, about why the compound is starting to look "unkempt"...interesting that the grass around the temple is the first thing to go.

walton

05-06-2008, 09:29 AM

Originally posted by Carol25

Hmmm...."one day those in charge say he is talking on cell phones and alone in his cell."

"He supposedly shows up at the next court hearing - no cameras and surrounded by police using sheets so people can't see the REAL person going into the jail. So who knows."

If it wasn't Utah, I wouldn't be so suspicious. Wish they had an FBI informant in in the next cell. [/*]

I don't have time to look right now but there was someone who posted a story about Jeffs on one of the daily threads. The article appeared to be written by someone that has done some major reporting. I didn't distrust the reporter. I checked the outlet he worked for and it doesn't appear to have anything to do with the LDS Church Media Group.

A good article, I just didn't get to respond fast enough.

I've never had issues with anyone reporting things until I started following stories out of Utah. Again I don't think it is those that are reporting....

I think it is the HUSH that authorities want to put on everything. But I am too old and too nosey not to ask questions a different way to get the answers. :) No, I am not a reporter. I am just a deteremined nosey old lady.

:D

Gotta go to work. :seeya:

xray ra

05-06-2008, 09:41 AM

Morning Walton, and thanks so much for the Link to the "bishop's list" Appreciate it.
Have a great day:seeya:

lotty

05-06-2008, 10:08 AM

Originally posted by lotty
Well LLaFren,
I guess if everyone is leaving to be closer to their children, then that would answer my question from yesterday, about why the compound is starting to look "unkempt"...interesting that the grass around the temple is the first thing to go. [/*]

Probably would have helped, if I had posted the link to the photos.

http://web.sccn2.net/flds/04-29-08.htm

The smaller white building near the temple looks like the grass is completely dead. Such a different picture than it was a month ago.

xray ra

05-06-2008, 10:28 AM

Originally posted by lotty

Probably would have helped, if I had posted the link to the photos.

http://web.sccn2.net/flds/04-29-08.htm

The smaller white building near the temple looks like the grass is completely dead. Such a different picture than it was a month ago. [/*]

Thanks for the link to the photos Lotty,
I was trying to figure out what you were talking about yesterday
:D

I still say it's a nice property, Good for organic farming and some small manufacturing.
Kind of like they do here in Indiana in the Amish areas.

xray ra

05-06-2008, 10:34 AM

Originally posted by lotty

according to the link above...
"But Barlow, 40, decided to take that risk to share how the event has torn apart his family.
Barlow, a college graduate, was 23 when he married 20-year-old Susan, his legal wife. Their first child, a daughter, is now 15. Seven more children followed, ages 4 to 13.
He has two plural wives, according to court documents, both of whom his attorney says were 18 when they married. One woman has five children. The other has none."

According to the Bishop's Record...Richard Barlow has 3 wives and 13 children, names and ages match for the most part, one year ago all are listed at Short Creek. I can understand why the State of Texas is having a difficult time.:confused: [/*]

OK so he says he has ONE legal wife and two other "spiritual wifes. He has at least 5 illegitemate children.(at least according to the law). I wonder if the "spiritual wife/mother" collects welfare for those children?

People want to know????

How the he!! could he possible support 3 wives and 13 children without support from the state and federal government.

Most regular people have a hard enough time supporting a wife and two kids unless the wife works.

Just sayin:chicken:

lotty

05-06-2008, 11:00 AM

xray ra

05-06-2008, 11:06 AM

Originally posted by lotty

I'd sure like to know how to support that many people without assistance. Maybe I need the "FLDS Financial Planning Class" reckon'?:punch: [/*]

LOL OUT LOUD!!!!!!!:lol:

KatyDid

05-06-2008, 11:06 AM

Originally posted by lotty

I'd sure like to know how to support that many people without assistance. Maybe I need the "FLDS Financial Planning Class" reckon'?:punch: [/*]

FLDS Financial Planning Class 101:

Bleed the Beast

Utah and Arizona won't do a darn thing about.
:rolleyes:

Devotion

05-06-2008, 11:06 AM

Originally posted by xray ra

OK so he says he has ONE legal wife and two other "spiritual wifes. He has at least 5 illegitemate children.(at least according to the law).
I wonder if the "spiritual wife/mother" collects WELFARE for those children?

People want to know????

How the he!! could he possible support 3 wives and 13 children without support from the state and federal government.

Most regular people have a hard enough time supporting a wife and two kids unless the wife works.

Just sayin:chicken: [/*]

I agree...
We have a hard time supporting and schooling our children because some of our money is being taken to help support women and children of DEAD BEAT DADS like these FLDS men...imo

Most men would like to have alot of women to sleep with,
IF they didn't have to take the responsibility for feeding, housing, schooling, medical cost and support of these women and children.
Giving the children in the home NO quality time or attention and Expecting the taxpayers to foot the bill.

Put any name on it you choose..I call it only a sperm donor.....with the men having their cake and eating it too!..while they ride around with their cell phones, in their NEW vehicles...jmo

xray ra

05-06-2008, 11:07 AM

OMG I'm still laughing.

lotty

05-06-2008, 11:41 AM

http://www.myeldorado.net/YFZ%20Pages/YFZ052004.html

Hope this link works, because I have a few questions:

1) Is this the same Sam Roundy on the Bishops List that lives in a basement apartment?

2)200 members to live at YFZ, do they count everyone, adult women and men, or just men?

3) If they only count men as members...(then I can start to figure out their math,) if it is only men that are members in their eyes, can't someone find a way to knock a hole in the whole "freedom of religion" argument that they hide behind?

As always JMO/IMO

xray ra

05-06-2008, 11:51 AM

Originally posted by lotty
http://www.myeldorado.net/YFZ%20Pages/YFZ052004.html

Hope this link works, because I have a few questions:

1) Is this the same Sam Roundy on the Bishops List that lives in a basement apartment?

2)200 members to live at YFZ, do they count everyone, adult women and men, or just men?

3) If they only count men as members...(then I can start to figure out their math,) if it is only men that are members in their eyes, can't someone find a way to knock a hole in the whole "freedom of religion" argument that they hide behind?

As always JMO/IMO [/*]

Thanks, Lotty. The link works..
How can Roundy say that "polygamy is the cornerstone of our faith" yet it against the law in every state in the union.

If they really wanted to avoid religious 'persecution" they could have immegrated to Mexico or Canada and let those countries deal with the fall-out.
And the welfare and medical care, ect. /.........
IMO

lotty

05-06-2008, 12:03 PM

Originally posted by xray ra

Thanks, Lotty. The link works..
How can Roundy say that "polygamy is the cornerstone of our faith" yet it against the law in every state in the union.

If they really wanted to avoid religious 'persecution" they could have immegrated to Mexico or Canada and let those countries deal with the fall-out.
And the welfare and medical care, ect. /.........
IMO [/*]

JMO/IMO Support and defend the Constitution...:rolleyes: So long as it doesn't go against their religious beliefs.

Carol25

05-06-2008, 12:37 PM

Originally posted by walton

I don't have time to look right now but there was someone who posted a story about Jeffs on one of the daily threads. The article appeared to be written by someone that has done some major reporting. I didn't distrust the reporter. I checked the outlet he worked for and it doesn't appear to have anything to do with the LDS Church Media Group.

A good article, I just didn't get to respond fast enough.

I've never had issues with anyone reporting things until I started following stories out of Utah. Again I don't think it is those that are reporting....

I think it is the HUSH that authorities want to put on everything. But I am too old and too nosey not to ask questions a different way to get the answers.No, I am not a reporter. I am just a deteremined nosey old lady.

Gotta go to work. :seeya: [/*]

Morning, Walton!:seeya: Thanks for everything! Have a great day at work!

Carol25

05-06-2008, 12:43 PM

Goodmorning all!

For those who are interested, I am writing a letter to Geraldo Rivera and Bill O'Relly about doing an expose' on the cover up of the FLDS in Utah. I don't think we have heard enough about it and it needs exposing!
If anyone thinks t is a good idea, the more letters the better!

:seeya:
Carol

xray ra

05-06-2008, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by Carol25
Goodmorning all!

For those who are interested, I am writing a letter to Geraldo Rivera and Bill O'Relly about doing an expose' on the cover up of the FLDS in Utah. I don't think we have heard enough about it and it needs exposing!
If anyone thinks t is a good idea, the more letters the better!

:seeya:
Carol [/*]

I don't know about Geraldo, but BOR does get some mainstream respect. Some.
Could you post the address? I would love to write a letter to get the "powers that be" to acknowledge this atrocity.!!barf

Carol25

05-06-2008, 01:06 PM

Originally posted by xray ra

I don't know about Geraldo, but BOR does get some mainstream respect. Some.
Could you post the address? I would love to write a letter to get the "powers that be" to acknowledge this atrocity.!!barf [/*]

Sure! Here it is!

• E-mail the show: oreilly@foxnews.com

Charity

05-06-2008, 01:15 PM

Originally posted by lotty

according to the link above...
<snip>

He has two plural wives, according to court documents <snip>
[/*]

"Plural wives" -- so euphemistic. Why don't they just tell it like it is. He has only one wife. The rest are his girlfriends, his lovers, his mistresses, his baby-making machines, his harem...but not his wives. :mad:

Carol25

05-06-2008, 01:17 PM

You can also do this:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,77538,00.html

Become Part of the Mix and Get Your Voice Heard ... Drop Us an E-mail:
In the paragraph, the word "here" is highlighted. Click on It and it takes you to a window where you can email whoever you want. Just put their name n the CC box.

Carol25

05-06-2008, 01:20 PM

Put this on the wrong thread....:rolleyes:

Goodmorning all!

For those who are interested, I am writing a letter to Geraldo Rivera and Bill O'Relly about doing an expose' on the cover up of the FLDS in Utah. I don't think we have heard enough about it and it needs exposing!
If anyone thinks t is a good idea, the more letters the better!

Carol

xray ra

05-06-2008, 01:30 PM

Originally posted by Charity

"Plural wives" -- so euphemistic. Why don't they just tell it like it is. He has only one wife. The rest are his girlfriends, his lovers, his mistresses, his baby-making machines, his harem...but not his wives. :mad: [/*]

That is it in a nutshell. Not Wifes. No way No how.
I wish Nancy Grace would refuse to refer to these women as "wifes" .!!!!Arrrggggghammer

Carol25

05-06-2008, 01:31 PM

Originally posted by Sumanadevii
Carol,

My letter is hot off the press... [/*]
Great! Thanks, Sumanadevii! :seeya:

xray ra

05-06-2008, 01:33 PM

By admitting that he has "plural wives", isn't he admitting to be guilty of a crime in United States of America. And subject to punishment accordingly?

Or is this another case of the Fox guarding the Hen house!!!

Roux

05-06-2008, 02:35 PM

I just listened to Napolitano's rant that evalles posted on the poll thread. He is so full of caca! Judge Walther didn't grant PERMANENT custody as he alludes; the state DID find evidence of abuse; doesn't matter if first call was hoax; and he obviously does not understand that this is a situation of SYSTEMATIC abuse.

Carol, I am so glad that you are writing to Geraldo, O'Reilly. These people need to understand the truth of the situation.

Vinnie

05-06-2008, 02:46 PM

The term "plural wives" isn't something any of these polygamists made up. It comes directly from Joseph Smith. Young Joe had trouble keeping his pants zipped, and his legal wife, Emma, was none too pleased. Eventually he [conveniently] created a "revelation". It is still a part of the LDS (and of course the FLDS) scriptures in Doctrine and Covenants Section 132. In verse 52, the revelation tells Emma to receive all the wives that have been "given" to Joseph -- or else she will be damned. Sound familiar?

The first 7 presidents of the LDS church practiced polygamy. Joseph had at least 34 wives; Brigham Young had over 50.

The reason the FLDS say that polygamy is the cornerstone of their faith is because they learned this from Brigham Young. In the "Journal of Discourses" from 1866, he said, "The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy."

Vinnie

05-06-2008, 02:50 PM

My great, great grandfather was briefly a Mormon. I think he was interested in it BECAUSE of polygamy. His wife put her foot down and said NO WAY, and that was the end of that.

:punch:

Carol25

05-06-2008, 02:52 PM

Originally posted by Vinnie
My great, great grandfather was briefly a Mormon. I think he was interested in it BECAUSE of polygamy. His wife put her foot down and said NO WAY, and that was the end of that.

:punch: [/*]
:lol: Good for her!

lotty

05-06-2008, 02:55 PM

Vinnie

05-06-2008, 02:58 PM

Thankfully, great-great-grandmother knocked some sense into him, and no plural marriages, divorce, or Mormonism resulted!!!

Carol25

05-06-2008, 02:59 PM

Originally posted by Carol25
You can also do this:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,77538,00.html

Become Part of the Mix and Get Your Voice Heard ... Drop Us an E-mail:
In the paragraph, the word "here" is highlighted. Click on It and it takes you to a window where you can email whoever you want. Just put their name n the CC box. [/*]

You probably don't want to use this one. I had too many problems using it.

xray ra

05-06-2008, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by Vinnie
The term "plural wives" isn't something any of these polygamists made up. It comes directly from Joseph Smith. Young Joe had trouble keeping his pants zipped, and his legal wife, Emma, was none too pleased. Eventually he [conveniently] created a "revelation". It is still a part of the LDS (and of course the FLDS) scriptures in Doctrine and Covenants Section 132. In verse 52, the revelation tells Emma to receive all the wives that have been "given" to Joseph -- or else she will be damned. Sound familiar?

The first 7 presidents of the LDS church practiced polygamy. Joseph had at least 34 wives; Brigham Young had over 50.

The reason the FLDS say that polygamy is the cornerstone of their faith is because they learned this from Brigham Young. In the "Journal of Discourses" from 1866, he said, "The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy." [/*]

Of course, in the Old Testement, Abraham used to give blood sacrifices of sheep and other animals. And God said, NEVER MIND!! I really don't want that anymore!!! Thank-you very much!

These men are just looking for young girls, to rape and impregnate to bleed the beast so they don't have to work !!
hammer

Devotion

05-06-2008, 04:18 PM

Originally posted by Vinnie
The term "plural wives" isn't something any of these polygamists made up. It comes directly from Joseph Smith. Young Joe had trouble keeping his pants zipped, and his legal wife, Emma, was none too pleased. Eventually he [conveniently] created a "revelation". It is still a part of the LDS (and of course the FLDS) scriptures in Doctrine and Covenants Section 132. In verse 52, the revelation tells Emma to receive all the wives that have been "given" to Joseph -- or else she will be damned. Sound familiar?

The first 7 presidents of the LDS church practiced polygamy. Joseph had at least 34 wives; Brigham Young had over 50.

The reason the FLDS say that polygamy is the cornerstone of their faith is because they learned this from Brigham Young. In the "Journal of Discourses" from 1866, he said, "The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy." [/*]

50 SINGLE WOMEN back then?
Seems that would have been half the women in that community in those days.
What was the population of that city in 1866?...jmo

Devotion

05-06-2008, 04:23 PM

Originally posted by Charity

"Plural wives" -- so euphemistic.

Why don't they just tell it like it is.

He has only one wife.

The rest are his girlfriends, his lovers, his mistresses, his baby-making machines, his harem...but NOT his wives. :mad:.... [/*]

BINGO! and guess who supports them all, while he's no where to be found ?

xray ra

05-06-2008, 04:27 PM

Originally posted by Devotion

50 SINGLE WOMEN back then?
Seems that would have been half the women in that community in those days.
What was the population of that city in 1866?...jmo [/*]

Could they have been his nieces? Or cousins? Yukkk!! barf

spageddy

05-06-2008, 05:49 PM

Originally posted by lotty
Well LLaFren,
I guess if everyone is leaving to be closer to their children, then that would answer my question from yesterday, about why the compound is starting to look "unkempt"...interesting that the grass around the temple is the first thing to go. [/*]

Well, with their "work force" in the custody of CPS, I guess not much work is getting done on the ranch.

lotty

05-06-2008, 05:59 PM

Originally posted by Vinnie
Thankfully, great-great-grandmother knocked some sense into him, and no plural marriages, divorce, or Mormonism resulted!!! [/*]

Your g-ggrandmother sounds like she was a highly intelligent woman. Good for her, especially back then!:seeya:

walton

05-06-2008, 06:50 PM

:)

There are so many angles to this story there just has to be something in there that would get BOR worked up.

Have I told you folks lately that I really appreciate all of you.

I do. :rose:

walton

05-06-2008, 07:31 PM

Did anyone watch Nancy Grace lastnight?

I only saw bits and pieces before my head started doing the bobbing thing. Nothing against her show. I was looking for the transcripts but the last one they have online is from April.

I heard the one reporter saying that there was one child buried at the Ranch.
That child was in a car accident.

Who ever said Monday Funday was just being Sarcastic. jmo I was beat and fell asleep.

spirit07

05-06-2008, 07:48 PM

Originally posted by xray ra

OK so he says he has ONE legal wife and two other "spiritual wifes. He has at least 5 illegitemate children.(at least according to the law). I wonder if the "spiritual wife/mother" collects welfare for those children?

People want to know????

How the he!! could he possible support 3 wives and 13 children without support from the state and federal government.

Most regular people have a hard enough time supporting a wife and two kids unless the wife works.

Just sayin:chicken: [/*]

I'd like to know also how he supports them. I believe these folks should have to answer these tough questions if they are allowed air time/news time. I know I said this before, but I also do not believe they should be allowed to speak out if they don't accurately identify who they are and who all is in their immediate family. Not sure if this guy did, but I am a bit tired of interviews where they only identify themselves by first names (mostly or names that no one can find on the list of who was at that ranch or names that could be more than one person, etc.).

xray ra

05-06-2008, 10:01 PM

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz
If this link has already been posted, I apologize.

Texas rep calls for probe of FLDS firm receiving defense contracts (http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/may/03/texas-rep-calls-for-probe-of-flds-firm-receiving/)

WASHINGTON - San Angelo's congressman said he favors a congressional probe into a company with ties to the Schleicher County polygamist sect raided last month, but he's not rushing to judgment about the defense contractor based in Nevada.

U.S. Rep. Mike Conaway, R-Midland, a member of the committee that might investigate, said the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints ran legitimate businesses. NewEra Manufacturing of Las Vegas reportedly was awarded more than $1 million in defense contracts.

"We still live in a country where you're innocent until proven guilty," Conaway said.

A NewEra representative said allegations about wages at the company are "just absolutely nonsense."

*more at link*

Here's hoping there's a congressional probe into every FLDS-related company that has been awarded government contracts. [/*]

U.S. Rep. Mike Conaway, R-Midland, a member of the committee that might investigate, said the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints ran legitimate businesses. NewEra Manufacturing of Las Vegas reportedly was awarded more than $1 million in defense contracts.

OKayyyyyy.. NOT!!!! "legitimate businesses" in Las Vegas?
How long has he been a congressman? Who contributed to his campaign? There is a PATTERN of ABUSE OF THE SYSTEM in his district.. So I can only conclude he is part of the problem. Unless he steps up now to disclose the abuses, I assume he wants to go with the status quo.. But he will have a very, very short tenure.
Mike, Do what is right. Everything else will fall in place.
:)

xray ra

05-06-2008, 11:12 PM

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz

Believe it or not, Vegas does have lots of legitimate businesses!

This NewEra operation was relocated from either Hildale or Colorado City, IIRC. My guess is that it blended into the scenery much better in Vegas than it did in Short Creek. I would also imagine that the government would be less apt to question a company headquartered in a bona fide city like Las Vegas vs. the much smaller Short Creek locations. [/*]

I stand corrected. Then I was wondering how New Era was allowed to operate out of Las Vegas. And then I figured that was a stupid question. DUH.
Still questions remain about multi million government contracts with known polygamous religous cults?

Politics/Money, Blah, Blah SSDD
But now, they have involved minors and welfare and MY taxes!!!
if you know what I mean.

:flamemad:

KatyDid

05-06-2008, 11:17 PM

Some info about NewEra Manufacturing:

(check out their annual sales $$)

Newera Manufacturing, Inc
2017 E Maule Ave, Las Vegas, NV 89119-4611, United States

Phone: (702) 943-7600

URL: Activate Links www.westernprecision.com

SIC:Industrial and Commercial Machinery and Equipment, NEC

Line of Business:Mfg Industrial Machinery Mfg Machine Tools-Cutting Mfg Dies/Tools/Jigs/Fixtures

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The ads are not affiliated with Newera Manufacturing, Inc

Detailed Newera Manufacturing, Inc Company Profile
This company profile is for the private company Newera Manufacturing, Inc, located in Las Vegas, NV. Newera Manufacturing, Inc's line of business is mfg industrial machinery mfg machine tools-cutting mfg dies/tools/jigs/fixtures.

Company Profile: Newera Manufacturing, Inc

Year Started:2006

State of Incorporation:N/A

URL: Activate Links www.westernprecision.com

Location Type:Single Location

Stock Symbol:N/A

Stock Exchange:N/A

Also Does Business As:N/A

NAICS:N/A

SIC #Code:3599

Est. Annual Sales:$6,900,000

Est. Employees:93

Est. Employees at Location:93

Contact Name:John Wayman

Contact Title:President & Chief Executive Officer

Data above provided by D&*.

xray ra

05-06-2008, 11:34 PM

93 Employees 7 million dollars a year
Where can I apply? HeHe

WOW

juliekan

05-06-2008, 11:40 PM

And just for the record, I have seen posted here that the people in Eldorado applied for Welfare...they did not receive welfare because they were supported by all the other FLDS communities. Remember they were the special, the chosen, for this community. I was going to cite a Rick Casey article from the Houston Chronicle, but it won't work. So IMO.

xray ra

05-06-2008, 11:42 PM

I don't care what you say about inbreeding, some of these guys are pretty darn smart. They sure know how to work the system!!!:punch:

Just like big time drug or arms dealers I guess.
No-bid contracts, for small part deals worth multi=millions, brilliant!!
Under the radar, 800,000 here 600,000 there, before you know it the government is screwed.
Scheeeeezzzzzzz!!!!!!

KatyDid

05-06-2008, 11:49 PM

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/casey/5747910.html

Residents of the Yearning for Zion Ranch relocated from Colorado City, Ariz., and Hildale, Utah.

Those two towns, whose population has ranged from an estimated 6,500 to 10,000, were established in the desert north of the Grand Canyon by the cult and basically function as one. They are divided only by a state line.

According to Paul Murphy, spokesman for the Utah attorney general's office, cult members there have been aggressive in their access to the welfare rolls.

He doesn't know of any recent tallies, but in 2002, he said, "66 percent of Hildale residents received federal assistance, and 78 percent of Colorado City received food stamps." They even had a term for it, according to former cult members.

"They called it 'bleeding the beast,' " Murphy said, and most of it was legal.

Welfare wasn't their only way of bleeding the beast, according to authorities. In 2000, cult leaders ordered members to leave the public schools in Colorado City, causing a 75 percent decline in enrollment, 1,400 to 350. But members of the cult continued to control the elected school board and the school district's administration.

In 2005, a new state law allowed state authorities to take over the district.

By that time the district owned its own $220,000 airplane, the only school district in the state with a plane. A cult member was hired as a pilot.

The district had four times as many administrators as districts of comparable size, with a total of 100 employees for the 350 K-12 students, according to various news reports. The district was funded with millions in state and federal dollars.

Cult members who moved to Texas neither filed for welfare nor tried to take over the local school district. They home-schooled their children.

West Texans are a live-and-let-live sort. This benefited the newcomers, as long as they stayed to themselves. Had the polygamists filed for welfare in large numbers or tried to take over the school board, the reaction would not have been benign neglect.

The cult doesn't need the welfare dollars. Its leadership controls about 10 good-size companies, a large farm and uncounted construction firms and other small businesses, said Bruce Wisan, a Salt Lake City accountant. A court appointed Wisan to oversee a real estate trust set up by cult leaders, worth between $10 million and $15 million.

Wisan said there is evidence that the businesses, some of which have millions in government contracts, employ cult members and underpay them. The businesses contribute generously to the church, he said.

"The workers are told they're working for the prophet," he said, referring to Warren Jeffs, the cult's leader, who is serving a prison sentence on two counts of rape as accomplice for arranging the "marriage" of older members to underage girls.

In addition, cult members are expected to pay 10 percent of their income to the church, plus $1,000 a month.

That's a for-prophet organization that didn't need to "bleed the beast."

juliekan

05-06-2008, 11:52 PM

thanks Katy:)

xray ra

05-06-2008, 11:53 PM

Originally posted by AnnieBean

Yeah they might have 93 jobs at that place but you better beleive they put a whole new meaning in the term 'job share'. They probably rotate wives in their business when things get too comfortable, or till one of them starts to cause trouble, not 'submit' to husband. 93 jobs might involve 600+ people working there and behind the scene.
They'de almost have to have someone devoted JUST TO sewing all those prarie dresses in those huge households. Thats got to be ALOT of sewing. Wonder if they'de let me wear my cowboy boots with that dress?

JMO [/*]

:lol: He he !!! Great visual!!!!

juliekan

05-07-2008, 12:04 AM

Jim Kirkpatrick of Houston Texas demands an apology from the state of Utah.

www.sltrib.com/opinion/ci_9162130

xray ra

05-07-2008, 12:04 AM

Originally posted by AnnieBean

yes yes and yes. Thats their MO. And they have spread to Texas.
I guess the LDS or Mormons thought they would keep the polygamists contained to the Salt lake City area. Growing up the name Salt Lake City was synonomous with polygamy. Just a fact pof life. Why have 'we' been just accepting these people do this, for so long. Religious freedom, yes. But allowing these extreme cults to exist invites another Guyana, Waco, etc. How long before the people are so brainwashed that they all drink the cool aid, because a 'prophet' said its time to go to glory..they will just follow like the mindless puppets that they have been trained to be. The men running this are not dumb. They are rich and this is how they get there. And along the way, they have a fresh supply of ever-younger girls to satisfy their perversity. Its sickening, IMO. [/*]

I know it is sad and sick but in Guyana and Waco, thankfully, the men died also.
Hopefully, in this situation the children are safe. Now the men and women can go ahead and drink all the Kool-Aid they want!!!

KatyDid

05-07-2008, 12:09 AM

Originally posted by juliekan
thanks Katy:) [/*]

YW juliekan ;)

KatyDid

05-07-2008, 12:13 AM

Originally posted by juliekan
Jim Kirkpatrick of Houston Texas demands an apology from the state of Utah.

www.sltrib.com/opinion/ci_9162130 [/*]

That is the laugh of the century!

What's wrong, did Utah get its feelings hurt because Texas had the guts to do what Utah refused to do all these YEARS!?

ITA! Utah DOES owe Texas an apology for that statement.

juliekan

05-07-2008, 12:20 AM

Originally posted by KatyDid

That is the laugh of the century!

What's wrong, did Utah get its feelings hurt because Texas had the guts to do what Utah refused to do all these YEARS!?

ITA! Utah DOES owe Texas an apology for that statement. [/*]

Oh yeah they do...

www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy897.html

Utah Attorney General actually said "If we start prosecuting polygamy just for polygamy, where so we stop?"

Uh Duh, and you're AG? You don't uphold the law, but say Texas went too far to enforce the laws of the state, and country?

Look out we'll be watching your A**
www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy900.html
Polygamist group buys up more than 900 acres in Utah

xray ra

05-07-2008, 12:28 AM

Originally posted by juliekan

Oh yeah they do...

www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy897.html

Utah Attorney General actually said "If we start prosecuting polygamy just for polygamy, where so we stop?"

Uh Duh, and you're AG? You don't uphold the law, but say Texas went too far to enforce the laws of the state, and country?

Look out we'll be watching your A**
www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy900.html
Polygamist group buys up more than 900 acres in Utah [/*]

He REALLY said that! Unbelievable!
They would have the resources if bars were trying to serve beer without food though. Crazy!
:punch:

KatyDid

05-07-2008, 12:35 AM

Originally posted by juliekan

Oh yeah they do...

www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy897.html

Utah Attorney General actually said "If we start prosecuting polygamy just for polygamy, where so we stop?"

Uh Duh, and you're AG? You don't uphold the law, but say Texas went too far to enforce the laws of the state, and country?

Look out we'll be watching your A**
www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy900.html
Polygamist group buys up more than 900 acres in Utah [/*]

:eek: I say keep talking AG.

The more he talks like that the more foolish he looks. He must have forgotten, the buck stops right in his own backyard.

When Texas proves their case, all LE and politicians in Utah will be sliding back under their rock. The eye of the world is on tem now. They will be hiding from the humiliation the entire world will lay on them. (I hope!)

xray ra

05-07-2008, 12:45 AM

nite GGW see ya tomorrow Puter's tired!:seeya:

walton

05-07-2008, 05:01 AM

Originally posted by KatyDid
Some info about NewEra Manufacturing:

(check out their annual sales $$)

Newera Manufacturing, Inc
2017 E Maule Ave, Las Vegas, NV 89119-4611, United States

Phone: (702) 943-7600

URL: Activate Links www.westernprecision.com

SIC:Industrial and Commercial Machinery and Equipment, NEC

Line of Business:Mfg Industrial Machinery Mfg Machine Tools-Cutting Mfg Dies/Tools/Jigs/Fixtures

Ads by Google

Job Shop Management/ERP Estimating, Costing, Inventory, Scheduling, Time Collection

Lean Manufacturing Free access to all of the latest lean manufacturing information.

Ambulance Scheduling The ambulance scheduling system designed just for EMS

The ads are not affiliated with Newera Manufacturing, Inc

Detailed Newera Manufacturing, Inc Company Profile
This company profile is for the private company Newera Manufacturing, Inc, located in Las Vegas, NV. Newera Manufacturing, Inc's line of business is mfg industrial machinery mfg machine tools-cutting mfg dies/tools/jigs/fixtures.

Company Profile: Newera Manufacturing, Inc

Year Started:2006

State of Incorporation:N/A

URL: Activate Links www.westernprecision.com

Location Type:Single Location

Stock Symbol:N/A

Stock Exchange:N/A

Also Does Business As:N/A

NAICS:N/A

SIC #Code:3599

Est. Annual Sales:$6,900,000

Est. Employees:93

Est. Employees at Location:93

Contact Name:John Wayman

Contact Title:President & Chief Executive Officer

Data above provided by D&*. [/*]

Katy I thought I had read somewhere that there was something goofy with their Corpartation ID. Not listed at in state or something like that. I know zip about that stuff. Do you have any idea?