Daily 4/30

[dsmith]

http://www.gosanangelo.com/
Pure vanilla. Pure honey. Real maple syrup and whole milk. Fresh fruit. Large black or white hair scrunchies and all-white bed linens.

The emergency shelter caring for children in state custody from a polygamist Mormon splinter sect asked for residents' help here Monday in providing these items and more that fit with the children's dietary and living preferences.

The center's new residents range from 4 months to 17 years old, Trejo said, and are beginning to adapt to their new surroundings.

"Like any child or any person, when you come into a different world, it can be scary," she said. "They've been doing really well, reserved like most of the children we see."

The children have been polite and well-mannered, causing no problems, Trejo said. The center's 32 staff members and one cook have adapted to their needs, modifying the environment and food. Staff try not to wear red, a color the children object to, and try to provide the natural diet and specific products they are accustomed to back home, she added.

sounds like the children and those caring for them are adjusting

[dsmith]

http://www.gosanangelo.com/
During investigations of alleged sexual abuse of pregnant teens, CPS will sometimes place newborns with their mothers, according to the news release, because it ensures the safety of the mother and her child.

The girl's mother was at the hospital for the birth, according to the news release.

Patrick Crimmins, a CPS spokesman, said he was unsure whether girls were given pregnancy tests when taken into state custody. He did not have a breakdown of ages among the 31 girls who are mothers or are pregnant.

The criminal side of the investigation is stalled while a court-appointed special master sorts items that were seized in the raid on the YFZ Ranch to determine whether they can be entered into evidence, said Tela Mange, a spokeswoman for the Texas Department of Public Safety.

Sect's doctor mum about ranch clinicHere's what's known about Dr. Lloyd H. Barlow:

He's licensed to practice medicine in Utah, in Arizona and - since June 2005 - in Texas.
He has no disciplinary actions against him in the states in which he's licensed to practice.
He operates a medical clinic at the YFZ Ranch of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Days Saints.
What's not yet known is whether he has any knowledge that could deny or confirm allegations of widespread forced marriage and sexual abuse of children at the ranch.

[GardenGirl]

Yeah, he's another one that needs to be arrested.
The whole lot of them do.

[walton]

article dated 2004

http://www.marshall-attorneys.com/Press/2004_08_15_CH.htm

Last week, Canada Customs officers searched the car of an American driving across the border between Idaho and British Columbia.

The man is known to customs officials, says Jennifer Leenhouts, chair of the Canada Employment and Immigration Union's women's committee.

He is a bodyguard to Warren Jeffs, the new prophet of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS).

Jeffs was already in Canada, having flown into Cranbrook, a 90-minute drive from the polygamous FLDS community of Bountiful, near Creston in southeastern *.C.

What the officers found in the bodyguard's vehicle were ammunition clips -- but no ammunition -- for a semi-automatic assault weapon, and some rifle shells. Because they didn't find semi-automatic weapons or any other guns, and because the man's papers were in order, he was allowed to enter Canada.

Within the last two weeks, two "brides" -- polygamous "wives" -- from Bountiful went to the United States to live with their American husbands. An unknown number of others were turned back at the U.S. border after they failed to produce proper documentation.

[walton]

Originally posted by GardenGirl
Yeah, he's another one that needs to be arrested.
The whole lot of them do. [/*]

I agree.

Did you see what the penalty is for not reporting? Wonder if that is per person or a one time slap on the wrist and pennies out of the wallet?


I am sure that the whole birthing at home is so the good Doctor doesn't have to report the birth to officials. jmo

[SHymes13]

Question, and this may have been mentioned already but: does anyone know if Warren Jeffs visits within the prison are being monitored?

I think right now with everything happening, they should seriously be monitoring his conversations with his visitors.

[Rainkiss]

Originally posted by walton


I agree.

Did you see what the penalty is for not reporting? Wonder if that is per person or a one time slap on the wrist and pennies out of the wallet?


I am sure that the whole birthing at home is so the good Doctor doesn't have to report the birth to officials. jmo [/*]

Ah, but it's not birthing at home. There's a doctor present, at a clinic.

I'd be asking why he hasn't been filing birth certificates, though... And investigating whether or not they have a "Babyland" child graveyard at the YFZ Ranch, and if every baby there has a proper death certificate.

[Devotion]

Originally posted by GardenGirl

Yeah, he's another one that needs to be arrested.
The whole lot of them do. [/*]

Originally posted by Cellar Rat

Perhaps the mother, but the children as well?
How well documented is the chain of "charity"?

Does the government NOT question whether a particular social security member/or number has ever been registered for school,
held a bank account,
earned any documentable income,
paid any taxes, etc.?

Or does the welfare recipient they just sign the forms and wait for the checks to show up?

Is there no one checking on the existence of numerous children?

I realize that some subcultures in our society have more children than others,

but if I'm paying the freight with my hard earned tax dollars,

I'd like to know that there are at least some controls in place during the process.

If the process is this LAX and negligent than who is really to blame for FLDS exploiting it?

Seems they figured out a way to literally "bleed the beast"...... :shrug: [/*].............................

Well said, Cellar Rat!
All your post are good common sense questions that need to have answers.
Here are some of my thoughts and questions:

What does the welfare department require of the RECIPIENT? Anything other than their word?
How much checking do they do on each recipient and the children?

ALL The Paperwork needs to be "looked at,"reviewed that gives these people all this welfare money, food stamps and medical care at the taxpayers expense...

I feel someone has broken rules and laws giving these people continuous welfare for years!

The people/ state employees that are responsible for overlooking the "follow-ups" of checking out these people, should be FIRED...or held responsible for contributing to this FRAUD!

WHY over a Million $$$$ a month to this cult? Most of the people there seem to be young and healthy

This payout is a huge burden on the taxpayers.

There should be NO FREE rides, when the average taxpayer can hardly get a dime when they loose their jobs, or fall on hard times !!

Imo...The TAXPAYERS should demand/ SUE to have ALL this money returned!
It would be easy to find, Who cashed the welfare checks?
What/ who's accounts was the money deposited?
How much $$$$ are in those accounts?

I know several friends that payed taxes for years and have been "turned down", to get help, recently.

There should be rules and TIME-limits, dollar limits for welfare $$ as applied to the general public....

especially for younger people and anyone healthy that is able to "get a job".....jmo

[Ladyhawk]

I am hoping that the birth of the baby boy will be a significant point in the issue of the identity of the fathers of these children. This baby will have a birth certificate....the mother has 3 choices here, she can name the father; she can refuse to name the father or she can say she doesn't know who the father is.

I don't know if there's a penalty for refusing to name the father. I think there might be a penalty for lying if she says she doesn't know who it is (and it would be pretty obvious she's lying if she says she doesn't know unless there was more than one man involved). If she names the father and he's an older man and not her legal husband I would think a rape charge could be filed against him.

I hope we hear how this plays out.

moo

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by Ladyhawk
I am hoping that the birth of the baby boy will be a significant point in the issue of the identity of the fathers of these children. This baby will have a birth certificate....the mother has 3 choices here, she can name the father; she can refuse to name the father or she can say she doesn't know who the father is.

I don't know if there's a penalty for refusing to name the father. I think there might be a penalty for lying if she says she doesn't know who it is (and it would be pretty obvious she's lying if she says she doesn't know unless there was more than one man involved). If she names the father and he's an older man and not her legal husband I would think a rape charge could be filed against him.

I hope we hear how this plays out.

moo [/*]

This is what the attorney says about the girl. I wonder why she didn't say these things at the time she left the ranch.

"Attorney Rod Parker, an FLDS spokesman, said Pamela Jeffs is 18 - the same age shown for her on a court document prepared by Texas Child Protective Services.
Jeffs is one of 26 females CPS has now classified as minors, an assessment that the FLDS said Monday was erroneous.
"Her husband is 22 and they are a monogamous couple," Parker said. He said Jeffs' husband is not at the hospital with her.
The couple also have a 16-month-old son, who is being held at The Children's Shelter in Austin. Parker said Jeffs is at the Central Texas Medical Center and that he had been told Texas Rangers and CPS workers were with her."

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_9095983

[tisamystery]

I wonder if the doctor at the ranch has been reporting stillbirths? Isn't that required by law? Given the number of births and the statistics for stillbirths or death very shortly after birth, one would assume there had to have been at least one.

To the poster yesterday to remember something about the FLDS demanding "silent birth", yes, that was in Caroline Jessop's book. She said the mother had to remain silent and the births were sometimes witnessed by the sister wives. To make a sound was looked down upon. Very humiliating, she said.

[tisamystery]

Anderson Cooper:

Of the children, the ratio of boys and girls is an even split. But among children 14-17, there are far few boys. The FLDS say it's just "happenstance". Uh-huh.

In my opinion, it's because they've imported female children to the ranch to bolster the man/wife ratio.

[Ladyhawk]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by KatyDid


This is what the attorney says about the girl. I wonder why she didn't say these things at the time she left the ranch.

~~snip~~

Hi Katy...

Maybe she did say that when she left the ranch.....maybe she didn't. Maybe she wants out and saw this as a good chance to get out. Too bad we can't hear from her.

[Ladyhawk]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tisamystery
I wonder if the doctor at the ranch has been reporting stillbirths? Isn't that required by law? Given the number of births and the statistics for stillbirths or death very shortly after birth, one would assume there had to have been at least one.

~~snip~~

In Texas:

http://info.sen.ca.gov/pub/07-08/bill/sen/sb_0801-0850/sb_850_cfa_20070417_101458_sen_comm.html

"Existing law:
The State Registrar of Vital Statistics is required to
administer the registration of births, deaths, fetal
deaths, and marriages. Each fetal death in which the fetus
has advanced to or beyond the 20th week of uterogestation
is required to be registered with the local registrar of
births and deaths of the district in which the fetal death
was officially pronounced within eight calendar days
following the death and prior to any disposition of the
fetus. "

The change to the above law allows the issuance of a birth certificate resulting from stillbirth (CBRS) upon request from the mother or father of the fetus. It didn't change the existing registration requirement.

I wouldn't think it would be too hard to avoid the requirement by lowering the gestational age of the fetus to under 20 weeks and afterall, if no hospital is involved and you're on 1500 acres of fenced land with no one else present but your fellow clansmen, who's to say the birth/death even occurred.

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by Ladyhawk
[QUOTE]Originally posted by KatyDid


This is what the attorney says about the girl. I wonder why she didn't say these things at the time she left the ranch.

~~snip~~

Hi Katy...

Maybe she did say that when she left the ranch.....maybe she didn't. Maybe she wants out and saw this as a good chance to get out. Too bad we can't hear from her. [/*]

At the time they were moving the children from the ranch, she probably looked like a pregnant teen. Even so, if she has a 16 m/o and now a newborn, she may have been a minor when she married the now 22 y/o. I wonder if he came forward to provide a DNA test.

I agree, she may have seen it as a chance to leave an abusive environment. Bless her if she did!

[Carol25]

Reports of abuse among the boys:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080430/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat

AUSTIN, Texas - Texas officials have told legislators they're looking at the possible sexual abuse of some young boys taken from the polygamist sect's ranch.

In a written update provided to lawmakers Wednesday, the state Child Protective Services division says it is looking into possible sexual abuse of boys based on interviews and journal entries.

This just gets worse!

[Mitzy2]

Originally posted by KatyDid


At the time they were moving the children from the ranch, she probably looked like a pregnant teen. Even so, if she has a 16 m/o and now a newborn, she may have been a minor when she married the now 22 y/o. I wonder if he came forward to provide a DNA test.

I agree, she may have seen it as a chance to leave an abusive environment. Bless her if she did! [/*] IIRC , after Warren Jeffs was arrested/ convicted, he had his "Minions" move the "selected" women and children to the Texas ranch as it was too "Hot" in Utah. God only knows what happened to the real fathers or mothers for that matter. Has anyone heard any updates on how many woman have now presented themselves for DNA testing of the ones who are still at the compound ??? TIA

[Carol25]

New Mexcico....another compound raided. Three children taken from the ranch for inappropriate conduct with the leader.

Hope to hear more soon.

[Roux]

Originally posted by Rainkiss


Ah, but it's not birthing at home. There's a doctor present, at a clinic.

I'd be asking why he hasn't been filing birth certificates, though... And investigating whether or not they have a "Babyland" child graveyard at the YFZ Ranch, and if every baby there has a proper death certificate. [/*]

They have a "Babyland" child graveyard at Colorado City. The program on polygamy last night on WE's series Secret Lives of Women showed Flora visiting it. It was chilling to see. She stated that they keep it separate from the other (adult) graves because they don't want outsiders to see how many children they have buried there.

[Mitzy2]

Originally posted by Carol25
New Mexcico....another compound raided. Three children taken from the ranch for inappropriate conduct with the leader.

Hope to hear more soon. [/*] thanks Carol, and for the above link. What type of sexual abuse do you think the boys have been inflicted with ?? Made to have sexual relations at puberty ? Or could they be talking about old geezers getting the young boys too ? Neither would surprise me. JMO

[dsmith]

http://www.usatoday.com/

S.D. town watches polygamist sect
By William M. Welch, USA TODAY
PRINGLE, S.D. — Just down the dirt road that passes Cookie Hickstein's home, an isolated group of neighbors has drawn intense interest here in the sparsely populated Black Hills.
The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS) has put roots on 140 acres of rugged territory. It is the same sect as at the ranch near Eldorado, Texas, where the practice of men taking multiple wives and allegations of sexual abuse of underage girls have sparked a custody battle over more than 400 children.

No such allegations have been made here, but local police worry about whether they can do their job when many of the people in their jurisdiction live in a closed, secretive society.

"It's difficult," Custer County Sheriff Rick Wheeler says. "They don't just open their doors. It's a locked-down operation, a locked fence. … I don't get precise answers, and yes, that concerns me."

South Dakota is among a handful of states where the FLDS has set up polygamist compounds. The others are in Colorado, Utah, Arizona, Nevada and Texas, and in the Canadian province of British Columbia.

wonder if someone in LE is really going to put forth the effort and stop the abuse

[Mitzy2]

Originally posted by dsmith
http://www.usatoday.com/

S.D. town watches polygamist sect
By William M. Welch, USA TODAY
PRINGLE, S.D. — Just down the dirt road that passes Cookie Hickstein's home, an isolated group of neighbors has drawn intense interest here in the sparsely populated Black Hills.
The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS) has put roots on 140 acres of rugged territory. It is the same sect as at the ranch near Eldorado, Texas, where the practice of men taking multiple wives and allegations of sexual abuse of underage girls have sparked a custody battle over more than 400 children.

No such allegations have been made here, but local police worry about whether they can do their job when many of the people in their jurisdiction live in a closed, secretive society.

"It's difficult," Custer County Sheriff Rick Wheeler says. "They don't just open their doors. It's a locked-down operation, a locked fence. … I don't get precise answers, and yes, that concerns me."

South Dakota is among a handful of states where the FLDS has set up polygamist compounds. The others are in Colorado, Utah, Arizona, Nevada and Texas, and in the Canadian province of British Columbia.

wonder if someone in LE is really going to put forth the effort and stop the abuse [/*]:seeya: With the now conviction of Warren Jeffs and the Texas "raid" , I pray this is just the beginning of the whole cult operation and those who have supported it to be blown wide open into the daylight. JMO

[tisamystery]

Originally posted by Mitzy2
thanks Carol, and for the above link. What type of sexual abuse do you think the boys have been inflicted with ?? Made to have sexual relations at puberty ? Or could they be talking about old geezers getting the young boys too ? Neither would surprise me. JMO [/*]

Given the statistics on gay men per capita, there are probably a few men in the sect that are actually gay but, unable to live openly as a gay man, might target the younger boys. Just guessing.

[Carol25]

Originally posted by Mitzy2
thanks Carol, and for the above link. What type of sexual abuse do you think the boys have been inflicted with ?? Made to have sexual relations at puberty ? Or could they be talking about old geezers getting the young boys too ? Neither would surprise me. JMO [/*]
Since they are correlating it with broken bones, I would say men to boys. LMO

There is a lawsuit against jeffs for the same thing right now.

[Roux]

I'm having trouble pulling up the link and getting back onto the site, but I just read an article posted within the last hour at www.gosanangelo.com that authories have found evidence of broken bones and past physical abuse in 41 of the children.

Wonder what evalles will have to say.

[Carol25]

They are going to talk about kids with broken bones on Fox news now.

[Carol25]

Originally posted by Roux
I'm having trouble pulling up the link and getting back onto the site, but I just read an article posted within the last hour at www.gosanangelo.com that authories have found evidence of broken bones and past physical abuse in 41 of the children.

Wonder what evalles will have to say. [/*]
I won't know..."ignore" is my friend :)

[Mitzy2]

Originally posted by tisamystery


Given the statistics on gay men per capita, there are probably a few men in the sect that are actually gay but, unable to live openly as a gay man, might target the younger boys. Just guessing. [/*] How sick is this ? But I suppose if a rich male supporter offered up a "donation" to the sect, Jeffs prob wouldn't have a problem with setting up a private session with a boy. He certainly didn't have a prob doing it with the girls :cuss:

[tisamystery]

I'm thinking about the challenges of these kids adapting to the outside world. My thoughts:

If the YFZ ranch has been functioning no more than 4 years, and assuming not all the occupants arrived that early . . .

Infants, babies and toddlers have not really developed a strong attachment to the lifestyle. They should be able to adopt a new lifestyle without any problem at all.

3-7 year olds probably have no memory of life in other less-restricive sects where they may have lived and are of an age when "rules" are very important to them. They are told that outsiders are all evil. However, how many kids who have been warned about not talking to strangers, taking candy from strangers, etc. do it anyway because it was a "nice" stranger? Perhaps these kids will be the same way with the "nice outsiders" and adjust just fine.

8-18 year olds must have some memory of the other compounds which weren't so isolated. They must have some awareness that YFZ is more strict. Any 15-year-old couldn't have been there any earlier than at the age of 11. Granted, they still came from a culture where child brides were common, but my point is this more extreme environment hasn't been a life-long experience for them.

Overall, children are resilient and much more adaptive than we give them credit for. The older ones will need more therapy but the younger ones, I believe, will accept and adjust to the bright new world.

[Rainkiss]

According to the suit, IIRC, the former member of the FLDS is charging that he was repeatedly molested by Warren Jeffs, himself, and two other men.

Interesting link, Roux,

FLDS spokesman Rod Parker called Cockerell's testimony "a deliberate effort to mislead the public."

Parker said any broken bones would have been treated in medical facilities away from the Yearning For Zion Ranch near Eldorado, and that doctors are required to report suspected abuse.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there was a clinic on the ranch, and a doctor on site?

And, THIS is one of the reasons they can't figure out which children are whose:

Cockerell told a legislative committee the investigation has been difficult because members of the church have refused to cooperate.

Mothers who stayed with their children for two weeks after the launched a coordinated effort to stymie investigators, coaching their children not to answer questions, Cockerell said.

He said the women and children would gather into apparent family units, with the children referring to several women as their mother, then the "women switched children in these family units making it difficult."

"When asked, women and children would change their names and ages," he said.

There's a new statement on the Texas DFPS website:

4/30/08 Update (http://www.dfps.state.tx.us/About/News/2008/2008-04-30_Eldorado_Senate.asp)

Adult women have been allowed to stay with children who are 12 months old or younger. We found placements for 17 mothers and their infant children. All other adult women who left the ranch with the children were given the option of returning to the ranch or going to a women’s shelter.

Boys ages 8 and older are being kept together. Two boys have turned 18 while in the state’s custody and have chosen to remain in the state’s care.

[Carol25]

Originally posted by tisamystery
I'm thinking about the challenges of these kids adapting to the outside world. My thoughts:

If the YFZ ranch has been functioning no more than 4 years, and assuming not all the occupants arrived that early . . .

Infants, babies and toddlers have not really developed a strong attachment to the lifestyle. They should be able to adopt a new lifestyle without any problem at all.

3-7 year olds probably have no memory of life in other less-restricive sects where they may have lived and are of an age when "rules" are very important to them. They are told that outsiders are all evil. However, how many kids who have been warned about not talking to strangers, taking candy from strangers, etc. do it anyway because it was a "nice" stranger? Perhaps these kids will be the same way with the "nice outsiders" and adjust just fine.

8-18 year olds must have some memory of the other compounds which weren't so isolated. They must have some awareness that YFZ is more strict. Any 15-year-old couldn't have been there any earlier than at the age of 11. Granted, they still came from a culture where child brides were common, but my point is this more extreme environment hasn't been a life-long experience for them.

Overall, children are resilient and much more adaptive than we give them credit for. The older ones will need more therapy but the younger ones, I believe, will accept and adjust to the bright new world. [/*]

What is another interesting variable is the age of 3=7 where they look for approval. While, they will be confused at what elicits the approval at first, they may be easier to recognize and accept the new culture because of the approval and encouragement that will be given at this time. I'm certain that these children are met with smiles and nods of approval more than they were in the compound.

The older children will have a longer time to devlelop a trusting bond. These children just learn by encounters with adults who accept them and show them respect in every way. That respect will eventually develop into a bond and trust, but probably with one person at a time.

[tisamystery]

Apparently shows of affection weren't allowed at the ranch. Will these children received hugs and kisses in foster care or are foster parents told not to do this?

[Carol25]

Originally posted by Rainkiss
According to the suit, IIRC, the former member of the FLDS is charging that he was repeatedly molested by Warren Jeffs, himself, and two other men.

Interesting link, Roux,



Correct me if I'm wrong, but there was a clinic on the ranch, and a doctor on site?

And, THIS is one of the reasons they can't figure out which children are whose:



There's a new statement on the Texas DFPS website:

4/30/08 Update (http://www.dfps.state.tx.us/About/News/2008/2008-04-30_Eldorado_Senate.asp)

[/*]
That's interesting. The boys must have given them the date of their birth. It's a good sign they decided to stay!

[Carol25]

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz


Ahhh ... you've revealed the secret to your cool, calm demeanor. :D [/*]
It was getting hard for a while there! :)

[Carol25]

Originally posted by tisamystery
Apparently shows of affection weren't allowed at the ranch. Will these children received hugs and kisses in foster care or are foster parents told not to do this? [/*]
Probably not at first. I know if I was working with them it would be hard not to. If I was there, I would use my instincts. You may see children begin to open up to you. Then a quiet smile with a pat on the hand, etc. Children just seem to instinctively love to hug. I think at one point at a very happy moment I might put my arms open for an invitation for them to come to me rather than me to them.

Grammy said something once that made me wonder. She said something about hand gestures meaning things. The las thing I would want to do is use a wrong gesture that would instill fear!

[Rainkiss]

Originally posted by tisamystery
Apparently shows of affection weren't allowed at the ranch. Will these children received hugs and kisses in foster care or are foster parents told not to do this? [/*]

I don't know what they've been told, but if I had a child to deal with, and had been told that they weren't used to receiving affection, I'd play it by ear, and let the children decide to come to me. Even better would be to have other children of a similar age around, so they could see what "normal" interaction is like. (Normal, as in normal for those of us outside the culture of the ranch.)

[Mitzy2]

Originally posted by Carol25

Since they are correlating it with broken bones, I would say men to boys. LMO

There is a lawsuit against jeffs for the same thing right now. [/*] Thanks again Carol, went back to do some:read: Your talking about Brent Jeffs. Got it;)

[Roux]

Originally posted by tisamystery
Apparently shows of affection weren't allowed at the ranch. Will these children received hugs and kisses in foster care or are foster parents told not to do this? [/*]

Probably physical affection and touching would be scary for them. I can't remembe where I saw some comments (maybe NG? on Monday?), the caregivers say children don't know the proper name for body parts and that they are used to strict discipline. Anyone else remember this?

[Carol25]

Originally posted by Mitzy2
Thanks again Carol, went back to do some:read: Your talking about Brent Jeffs. Got it;) [/*]
Right. it happened in the basement of the church, I believe. Weren't there three originally?

[Carol25]

Originally posted by Roux


Probably physical affection and touching would be scary for them. I can't remembe where I saw some comments (maybe NG? on Monday?), the caregivers say children don't know the proper name for body parts and that they are used to strict discipline. Anyone else remember this? [/*]
I didn't see it. I do think though, that once the children see the affection and start to feel it, they will want more and more like a starved animal! Poor comparison, but true.

[Mitzy2]

Originally posted by Carol25

Right. it happened in the basement of the church, I believe. Weren't there three originally? [/*] Yes , Warren Jeffs and 2 other men.

[StickyBeak]

http://news.aol.com/story/_a/new-mexico-police-remove-4-children-from/n20080430103309990009?ecid=RSS0001

Under investigation since april 22nd. This is insane. These cults should all be investigated, JMO

[Roux]

Originally posted by Carol25

I didn't see it. I do think though, that once the children see the affection and start to feel it, they will want more and more like a starved animal! Poor comparison, but true. [/*]

ITA. It's inside all of us -- the need for love and attention. Once they feel it, they will indeed want more.

[Carol25]

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz


Very interesting update. Forty one cases of broken bones. Nice. I think I'd better check my blood pressure.

And you know, I think I despise liars almost as much as I despise child abusers. I'm remembering all the crying and carrying on those 'mothers' have been doing for the cameras. But turn the cameras off, and they turn into busy little manipulative bees, doing everything possible to screw up the investigation ... and leading by example those 460+ children. What role models they are.

Disgusting. [/*]
I just had a thought. What, if after the children have been away for months and they begin to feel affection and love they hug and show happiness.....what will the mothers feel when they see all of this emotion and love?

Will they stand there and cry knowing how happy the children are and missing that feeling in their own lives?

When you love a child, you get so much love back. Then they will be seeing what they have been missing all this time. There must be a heart in them that wants to come out.

[Carol25]

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz


Can you imagine? The first real touch a young girl receives in her life is in the form of sexual penetration, most likely by a much older, much larger adult male selected for her by her doting 'parents.'

:flamemad: [/*]
And can you imagine the damage that has to be undone when it comes for these girls to really experience "making love?" Their mates will have to be so understanding. All they know is rape.

[tisamystery]

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz


Can you imagine? The first real touch a young girl receives in her life is in the form of sexual penetration, most likely by a much older, much larger adult male selected for her by her doting 'parents.'

:flamemad: [/*]

Even worse. The "husbands" aren't selected by the parents but by the prophet.

[StickyBeak]

http://www.topix.net/forum/source/kob-new-mexico/T7VJ2UHIL8TBDSHB4

First link is to the New Mexico children taken away. But check out the main site, there is a interesting link to FLDS with regard to a compound that seems to be a hide out for men only.

[Carol25]

Originally posted by StickyBeak
http://news.aol.com/story/_a/new-mexico-police-remove-4-children-from/n20080430103309990009?ecid=RSS0001

Under investigation since april 22nd. This is insane. These cults should all be investigated, JMO [/*]
What is this? Just one nut can create a following? So scary! So sad!

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by Rainkiss


There's a new statement on the Texas DFPS website:

4/30/08 Update (http://www.dfps.state.tx.us/About/News/2008/2008-04-30_Eldorado_Senate.asp)

[/*]

Thanks for that link. The majority of it was very disheartening to read, but at least it is gratifying to know that the 2 boys who have turned 18 years old since their removal from the ranch have elected to stay in the state's care.

Any sympathy I may have had for mothers' being separated from their children pretty much went out the door after reading that they altered the ID bracelets put on the kids, switched the kids' clothes & generally did everything they possibly could to thwart the identification process.

JMO

[Carol25]

Originally posted by snoodles


I wish I could agree with you, but hearts can be destroyed just like psyches and normal emotional responses, and I just don't know how many of these programmed-from-birth mothers will ever be able to experience that kind of love. I guess it's just wait and see. [/*]
You may be right. :(

[Carol25]

Originally posted by Aame


Please, does anyone know anything about this?
I can't seem to find the answer. :confused: [/*]
I can't provide a link or if this was someone's opinon, but it was speculated that the children were divided by age. Like newborns went somewhere and another age group somewhere else. The reasoning, I believe so the mothers could not form any emotional attachments.

[Carol25]

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz


I guess it will depend on which is stronger: their hearts or their programming.

I would LOVE it if the authorities in Texas could find a way, legally, to demand lengthy deprogramming of the (confirmed by DNA) parents of the children in custody as a condition by which their kids will be returned to them.

Seems to me that's the only way to have even a bit of confidence that these children will have some sort of normal life if they're returned to their biological parents. [/*]
Perhaps that compound could be turned into an orphanage with horses, pools, etc. And loving people! Hershey, Pa. had one and I knew someone who grew up there. He was always grateful to that place and said he had a happy childhood.

[Carol25]

Assuming the men go to jail, where would those mothers go? I don't want the children to go back.
Hmm. Maybe they would just stay at the ranch and get their welfare with no children. Maybe some could get a job.

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by Carol25
Assuming the men go to jail, where would those mothers go? I don't want the children to go back.
Hmm. Maybe they would just stay at the ranch and get their welfare with no children. Maybe some could get a job. [/*]

Texas would provide very limited 'welfare benefits' to these women.

A pregnant woman or mother with a child could be eligible for WIC & a certain amount of food stamps. Medical care for the child & for a pregnant woman. TANF benefits (temporary aid to need families) would provide a small amount of money . . . BUT . . . there are very strict stipulations on that. Any female younger than 18 & either pregnant or a mother would be denied benefits unless she is enrolled & stays in school. A female older than 18 would have to enroll in a work program. There is a time limit on how long they could ultimately receive benefits, too.

Considering the remoteness & small population of Eldorado, I can't even begin to imagine how single mothers of 400+ children, FLDS or not, would find jobs sufficient to support themselves. We are talking west Texas here & San Angelo is at least 40 miles away. Not exactly a short commute, IOW.

JMO

[Mitzy2]

Originally posted by Carol25

Perhaps that compound could be turned into an orphanage with horses, pools, etc. And loving people! Hershey, Pa. had one and I knew someone who grew up there. He was always grateful to that place and said he had a happy childhood. [/*] What a lovely idea and it may come to fruitian. I wouln't be surprised if there was a mass Exodus to Canada plannned in the very near future as CPS continues their investigations and confirms "abused children". JMO

[not.another]

Originally posted by Carol25
Assuming the men go to jail, where would those mothers go? I don't want the children to go back.
Hmm. Maybe they would just stay at the ranch and get their welfare with no children. Maybe some could get a job. [/*]

My two cents....They should make the ranch into a jail. Have the men continue to work the fields night & day for pay. And then the money should go directly to the children. Not the women, not the pedophile men. They should not see a dime! IMO

This country is always saying there are not enough jails for all the prisoners. As many acres as the ranch is it could definately serve that purpose!

[Rainkiss]

The problem with removing the men from the ranch is that there are more FLDS men where they came from. Chances are the women would just be reassigned to new "husbands," and slip off with the children to live in other states and countries.

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz


That's a great idea! There's ample housing and it's designed to accommodate lots of kids. And there's certainly enough acreage to put in pools, ballfields, animal habitats - the works.

I think the temple should come down (unless it can be 'repurposed' and remodeled so as not to be so intimidating looking ... and creepy) as well as the high walls that surround the place. Fencing would feel better.

:) [/*]

I hope for the absolute best for all these women & children, but I would keep them as far away as possible from that ranch. It would be a constant reminder that now that they had broken away from their 'prophet' - they are doomed to hell & damnation.

And even if that were not a consideration, I'd sure like to know where/how an orphanage would find enough employees to go live & work in a scantily populated area of west Texas! LOL.

[Mitzy2]

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz


It's a scary thought ... the thought of returning the kids ... no matter how you slice it. Even if the men are removed.

I don't suppose it's possible legally to force all the women to submit to deprogramming. I would be interested to know if there are legal definitions to describe the behavior of the women -- with regard to their fitness to mother -- that would preclude the children being returned to them.

I think anyone with the will to change deserves the chance to do so. I just don't feel very optimistic that this group will have any interest in it.

If you consider that the children are the result of some sort of numbers game in which the higher the number, the closer to heaven for the parents, then it seems to me that the women who are still of childbearing age will simply make more babies to replace the ones they've lost.

One's as good as the next seems to be the theme. I'm sure the women grow attached to 'the children,' but the squashing of individuality, the 'gang mothering' and the goal of a baby per year for every woman speaks volumes to me about how sort of 'unspecial' each individual child is in the group. [/*] ITA. I really don't want to believe it, but it has been swirling in my mind, the thought that the Ranch mothers over 18 ( not in custody) will eventually give up on getting their children back, due to the fact they will not expose their "Secrets" to CPL or LE. I do have a feeling they will walk away from their children and just have more to replace them. JMO

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz


Can't answer the employees question!

But I wasn't suggesting that the FLDS women and children be returned to the 'repurposed' compound. I was thinking other children altogether - children for whom the place holds no memories. [/*]

Sorry for the mix-up in my post - I know it was not your suggestion, but Carol's, that the women & children go back to the ranch.

I'm also not feeling overly optimistic that there will be very many adult women who will elect to leave the FLDS altogether. It seems more likely than not that any adult woman there in the first place has been indoctrinated from birth - & has had it pounded into her head that living any OTHER way means she is going to burn in h#ll - no chance of salvation, no chance to be with her loved ones in the afterlife. On her own & doomed. That is a powerful obstacle to overcome, even for those who want to leave.

JMO

[Carol25]

I wonder if the group homes are stretched so far that they aren't able to accomodte incoming children. Perhaps taking that chuch down would be a good idea. I was looking at the ranch that the boys went to and that sounded nice.

it sounds only fair that once the FLDS funding has been exposed, the money could be spent on a good ranch for all of the kids. perhaps people like Oprah and Bill Gates would come to their aid.

Couple from all over the country could apply for house parents and workers. Each employee should be given a personaity profile first!

A school could be built for these youngsters until they become acclimated, then larger schools for the community to provide for the added students from the FLDS...

Then on to the next compound!....:D

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by Mitzy2
I wouln't be surprised if there was a mass Exodus to Canada plannned in the very near future as CPS continues their investigations and confirms "abused children". JMO [/*]

I think you could be right that the rest of the FLDS will want to get out of the USA. I'm sure Canada has enough child welfare laws to suffice - my real fear is that a lot of them will be moved to Mexico.

JMO

[Carol25]

Originally posted by Mimi428


Sorry for the mix-up in my post - I know it was not your suggestion, but Carol's, that the women & children go back to the ranch.

I'm also not feeling overly optimistic that there will be very many adult women who will elect to leave the FLDS altogether. It seems more likely than not that any adult woman there in the first place has been indoctrinated from birth - & has had it pounded into her head that living any OTHER way means she is going to burn in h#ll - no chance of salvation, no chance to be with her loved ones in the afterlife. On her own & doomed. That is a powerful obstacle to overcome, even for those who want to leave.

JMO [/*]
NO! NO! The children cannot go back with their mothers! Unless they are teenagers. but then, they would have to go through psychological tests to show they are capable of being good parents.
The teen mothers should be able to be teenagers. But allowed to visiti their babies as long s they wish. They would probably be more like brother and sister for some of them. Those who are ready to be mothers would be ready to accept that role under strict supervision. Therapists would probably know how best to handle this. But I don't think their bond should be broken if one is made.

[Carol25]

Originally posted by Mimi428


I think you could be right that the rest of the FLDS will want to get out of the USA. I'm sure Canada has enough child welfare laws to suffice - my real fear is that a lot of them will be moved to Mexico.

JMO [/*]
What a switch! Americans fleeing to Mexico! :biggrin:

[Mitzy2]

Originally posted by Mimi428


I think you could be right that the rest of the FLDS will want to get out of the USA. I'm sure Canada has enough child welfare laws to suffice - my real fear is that a lot of them will be moved to Mexico.

JMO [/*] The FLDS already have an established compound in Canada too.

[Mitzy2]

Originally posted by Carol25

What a switch! Americans fleeing to Mexico! :biggrin: [/*]:lol: I really hate for any of them to get away from LE, but Mexico works for me !!!

[Vinnie]

If the FLDS uprooted to Mexico, they wouldn't be the first fundamentalist Mormon group there. The LeBaron-led clan has lived there since at least the early 60's in a town south of New Mexico called Colonia LeBaron. They also have/had a settlement called Los Molinos in Baja. Those interested should read Susan Ray Schmidt's fascinating book, His Favorite Wife. She left her husband Verlan LeBaron in 1976. :chicken:

[StickyBeak]

I wonder, if these women were receiving welfare and support from the state of Texas, since the children are no longer living with them at the compound, do you suppose all payments have been stopped? Certainly the state has full custody (ad Lietem) and are paying out for foster care. I imagine there is a loss of income to the compound itself. JMO

[Mitzy2]

Originally posted by StickyBeak
I wonder, if these women were receiving welfare and support from the state of Texas, since the children are no longer living with them at the compound, do you suppose all payments have been stopped? Certainly the state has full custody (ad Lietem) and are paying out for foster care. I imagine there is a loss of income to the compound itself. JMO [/*] I would certainly hope benefits are in the process of being "cut off" someone needs to turn off the "spicket". This DNA matching mess is going to takes months to sort out who the bio=parents of each underage child are to be even able to consider whether or not an individual child should be returned to their established bio-parent. Now that CPS has the kids, they just can't give them back to "A Mother" just cause she says she is. ( Hope that makes sense) JMO

[Ammonite]

"and as for the deprogramming of the adult women, well, I don't want MY tax dollars going to that."

Why not "deprogram" the men too? As boys, they were groomed by the cult to become the pedophiles they are now. They're just as much victims of this brainwashing as these women.

Some have condemned the men purely on the belief that they had access to the outside world and therefore knew it was wrong, but that's pretty silly. Brainwashing from childhood isn't reversed so easily, as we can see with these women who are all banding together to defend their way of life despite knowing that the outside world considers it abusive. Their knowledge that it was wrong hasn't swayed them one bit apparently.

I have little sympathy for either gender, but do find it kind of sexist that these women are getting loads of sympathy from posters here despite all their sneaking attempts to thwart the investigation while the men have received nothing but disdain. Last I checked, being an accomplice to sexual abuse is just as serious as committing sexual abuse. They're as guilty of this as the men are.

[Carol25]

Originally posted by StickyBeak
I wonder, if these women were receiving welfare and support from the state of Texas, since the children are no longer living with them at the compound, do you suppose all payments have been stopped? Certainly the state has full custody (ad Lietem) and are paying out for foster care. I imagine there is a loss of income to the compound itself. JMO [/*]
Sure hope someone thought of that!

[Devotion]

Originally posted by Mimi428

I think you could be right that the rest of the FLDS will want to get out of the USA.
I'm sure Canada has enough child welfare laws to suffice -
my real fear is that a lot of them will be moved to Mexico.

JMO [/*]

Fear not! IF Mexico does not have welfare, they will probably move to Canada!....imo

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by Carol25

Sure hope someone thought of that! [/*]

Personally, I can't imagine that any of them were receiving assistance from the state of Texas.

Pregnant women, nursing mothers, babies & young children can be eligible for WIC - but they would still have to show up to apply for it.

If they applied for TANF - they would be expected to name the father of any child - so the state can pursue child support.

Any minor would have to be enrolled in school.

The adult parents of pregnant minor who was receiving state benefits would have to be identified. The person responsible for impregnating the minor would have to be identified. If that person was also a minor - HIS parents would have to be identified.

[Devotion]

Originally posted by StickyBeak

I wonder, if these women were receiving welfare and support from the state of Texas,

since the children are no longer living with them at the compound, do you suppose all payments have been stopped?
Certainly the state has full custody (ad Lietem) and are paying out for foster care.
I imagine there is a loss of income to the compound itself. JMO [/*]

Someone please answer this:
Doesn't the Welfare department have records on all these women and children?

HOW can these people receive welfare, food stamps and medical help without names, social security numbers, birth certificates, wages, property owned or ages?

Someone please EXPLAIN how they keep getting welfare checks and a Million $$$ a month for medical Insurance with NO documentation, or does the department have the documentation on each of these people?...
IF they have it, it needs to be compared to each mother and child..
From what I've read, I put NOTHING past these people, maybe each cult in each state, could be drawing welfare checks on the "same " children...moo

[Mimi428]

Here is the Texas DHS website with a bunch of FAQs about applying for & receiving TANF (Temporary Aid to Needy Families)

http://www.hhsc.state.tx.us/programs/TexasWorks/TANF-FAQ.html#apply

I will be very surprised if we find out the Eldorado group was receiving benefits from the state of TX.

Here's just a couple of excerpts...

I've heard I have to sign a personal responsibility agreement. What is that?
Everyone who applies for TANF must sign a personal responsibility agreement. If you don't sign the agreement, you won't get benefits. By signing, parents agree to:

keep their children in school, have them immunized, and complete required health screenings;
cooperate with child-support collection efforts;
participate in job-training or education programs;
not voluntarily quit a job;
not abuse alcohol or drugs; and
attend parenting classes.

What should I bring with me when I apply?
Applicants must supply:

proof of family members' ages, relationships, citizenship, and residence in the home;
the amount of the family's income and resources;
reasons why the child is not supported by one or both parents;
the whereabouts of the parent(s), if known; and
Social Security numbers for all family members, or documents necessary to complete an application for Social Security numbers for members who don't have one.

What happens once I get to DHS?
You will meet with a Texas Works advisor who will determine if you qualify for benefits. All adults and minor heads of household will have their finger images scanned. You also will receive information from Texas Works employees about job opportunities

[Devotion]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by snoodles

ITA. And the money should go to the children AND to

the taxpayers who have been cheated out of the

money by having to pay

welfare for this sick, perverted, greedy bunch of pedophiles.

JMOO [/*][/QUOTE)
:beer:

[Mimi428]

WIC is the easiest of all programs to qualify for, IMO - but they still want more info than I believe the FLDS women would want to supply - here's the TX website...

http://www.dshs.state.tx.us/wichd/gi/eligible.shtm

Excerpt...

Call or go by the clinic to make an appointment for a pregnant woman, breastfeeding woman, postpartum woman, infant, or child less than 5 years of age.

At the time of your appointment, bring documentation of your household's source of income or wages. This applies to all members of the household. Some examples of documentation include a paycheck stub, a current tax return, a letter from an employer, a Social Security check, a child-support check, or self-employed accounting records. Applicants and certain family members who receive Medicaid, Temporary Assistance to Needy Families, or Food Stamps automatically meet income eligibility by bringing acceptable proof of their participation in one of these programs—they do not have to bring other income documents.

At the time of your appointment, bring documentation of where you live with your current physical address, such as a utility or credit-card bill, rent receipt, or business letter.

At the time of your appointment, bring one document of identification for each person applying for WIC benefits and the adult responsible for the benefits. Examples of acceptable identification documents are a birth certificate, a driver's license, an immunization card, an employee or school identification card with picture, a Social Security card, or hospital records.

[dsmith]

as far as the cult/religion goes I will find the link but they do own property such as motels and I think I even remember reading some where a pool hall and laundry mat or something like that I still have my granddaughter here, parents are late but i will find the link for this

[Carol25]

Originally posted by Mimi428
Here is the Texas DHS website with a bunch of FAQs about applying for & receiving TANF (Temporary Aid to Needy Families)

http://www.hhsc.state.tx.us/programs/TexasWorks/TANF-FAQ.html#apply

I will be very surprised if we find out the Eldorado group was receiving benefits from the state of TX.

Here's just a couple of excerpts...

I've heard I have to sign a personal responsibility agreement. What is that?
Everyone who applies for TANF must sign a personal responsibility agreement. If you don't sign the agreement, you won't get benefits. By signing, parents agree to:

keep their children in school, have them immunized, and complete required health screenings;
cooperate with child-support collection efforts;
participate in job-training or education programs;
not voluntarily quit a job;
not abuse alcohol or drugs; and
attend parenting classes.

What should I bring with me when I apply?
Applicants must supply:

proof of family members' ages, relationships, citizenship, and residence in the home;
the amount of the family's income and resources;
reasons why the child is not supported by one or both parents;
the whereabouts of the parent(s), if known; and
Social Security numbers for all family members, or documents necessary to complete an application for Social Security numbers for members who don't have one.

What happens once I get to DHS?
You will meet with a Texas Works advisor who will determine if you qualify for benefits. All adults and minor heads of household will have their finger images scanned. You also will receive information from Texas Works employees about job opportunities [/*]
Good lnk, Mimi! That sure sounds good! The only thing thng they could improve on, is taking the fingerprints of the children as well. Normally, I wouldn't agree with this, but when I see all of this happenng with the children, I've changed my mnd!

[spydernweb2006]

Again I came home to more heartbreaking news of the FDLS's treatment of children.

This is in today's Ft Worth Star Telegram:

http://www.star-telegram.com/news/story/614024.html

Sadly the abuse allegations are not just sexual.

JMHO

Hugs,

Spyder

[Devotion]

Originally posted by AladaLuv
From what I understand... they were not receiving welfare in Texas... But I do believe they were in Utah/Colorado.

And even so, you would think that whatever welfare they may have had benefit from, those offices would be sharing information... but maybe they cannot, due to different State laws?

:shrug:
All IMO [/*]

Alada, You may be correct.

Sorry TEXAS, I made a mistake, my memory is going bad and I wrote the wrong State:

I remembered reading about the welfare, but forgot it was Arizona instead of Texas.
I should have known TEXAS was smarter than that...
Texas is the greatest....don't mess with Texas!

This is what I remembered reading.
QUOTE:
The Arizona state Department of Health Services and the Department of Economic Security have been QUIETLY providing services to assist the children and families of fumarase victims for more than 15 years.

Victims suffer a range of symptoms, including severe epileptic seizures, inability to walk or even sit upright, severe speech impediments, failure to grow at a normal rate, and tragic physical deformities.

There is no cure for the disease, which impedes the body's ability to process food at the cellular level.

"It's like any inbred disorder," Tarby says. "If the community gets larger, the number of people with fumarase deficiency gets larger."

"This problem is going to get worse and worse and worse," predicts 40-year-old Isaac Wyler.

The STATE of Arizona not only IGNORED the crimes for decades,

But the Cult has received TENS of MILLIONS of DOLLARS in TAXPAYER FUNDS

despite the fact that polygamy VIOLATES Arizona's Constitution.

The fundamentalist community has also benefited immensely from state health-care services for the poor and indigent

by receiving more than $12 MILLION A YEAR
in state assistance in Arizona to PAY for health-insurance premiums.

It turns out that taxpayers also have been FOOTING THE BILL
for the fumarase deficiency children born to polygamists who insist that plural marriage involving close relatives is their DIVINE RIGHT......jmo...moo [/*]

[Debb]

Originally posted by Devotion
[QUOTE]Originally posted by snoodles

ITA. And the money should go to the children AND to

the taxpayers who have been cheated out of the

money by having to pay

welfare for this sick, perverted, greedy bunch of pedophiles.

JMOO [/*][/QUOTE)
:beer: [/*]

In my state, if a mother applies for public assistance, she must provide information about the father, such as his name, address, etc. and prove that he does not live with her and that he does not provide her support for the child. Only then will she get the public assistance.

THEN. the state tracks the nonsupporting father down and files a child support action against him in court, requiring him to appear in court with his income documentation. The court will then enter an order that he not only pay ongoing child support to the mother, but that he REIMBURSE the state for funds they have advanced to the mother in the form of public assistance.

Why other states don't do this is amazing to me.

[Carol25]

Originally posted by Mimi428
WIC is the easiest of all programs to qualify for, IMO - but they still want more info than I believe the FLDS women would want to supply - here's the TX website...

http://www.dshs.state.tx.us/wichd/gi/eligible.shtm

Excerpt...

Call or go by the clinic to make an appointment for a pregnant woman, breastfeeding woman, postpartum woman, infant, or child less than 5 years of age.

At the time of your appointment, bring documentation of your household's source of income or wages. This applies to all members of the household. Some examples of documentation include a paycheck stub, a current tax return, a letter from an employer, a Social Security check, a child-support check, or self-employed accounting records. Applicants and certain family members who receive Medicaid, Temporary Assistance to Needy Families, or Food Stamps automatically meet income eligibility by bringing acceptable proof of their participation in one of these programs—they do not have to bring other income documents.

At the time of your appointment, bring documentation of where you live with your current physical address, such as a utility or credit-card bill, rent receipt, or business letter.

At the time of your appointment, bring one document of identification for each person applying for WIC benefits and the adult responsible for the benefits. Examples of acceptable identification documents are a birth certificate, a driver's license, an immunization card, an employee or school identification card with picture, a Social Security card, or hospital records. [/*]
Let's go through these:
Household income - they will lie and say $0.00
social securty check - could use that, but information false?
child support check - do they check (is there a clearing house on who is receiving all gov't benefits)
Medicaid, TANF, Food stamps - does one agency know what the other is giving; If names are duplicated?

If many had one address, how are they getting $ if it is one check for a household.
If they have to provide imminuzation records and birth certificates, that would involve fraud also. Look at how many had chicken pox. The didn't have shots.

If Utah was anything like Texas, someone was making it awfully easy for them to get benefits. How far will this fraud go in utah?

[Cat2007]

Originally posted by Debb


In my state, if a mother applies for public assistance, she must provide information about the father, such as his name, address, etc. and prove that he does not live with her and that he does not provide her support for the child. Only then will she get the public assistance.

THEN. the state tracks the nonsupporting father down and files a child support action against him in court, requiring him to appear in court with his income documentation. The court will then enter an order that he not only pay ongoing child support to the mother, but that he REIMBURSE the state for funds they have advanced to the mother in the form of public assistance.

Why other states don't do this is amazing to me. [/*]

Wisconsin does.

[evalles]

Originally posted by Mitzy2
I would certainly hope benefits are in the process of being "cut off" someone needs to turn off the "spicket". This DNA matching mess is going to takes months to sort out who the bio=parents of each underage child are to be even able to consider whether or not an individual child should be returned to their established bio-parent. Now that CPS has the kids, they just can't give them back to "A Mother" just cause she says she is. ( Hope that makes sense) JMO [/*]

How do they receive welfare for all the kids without birth certificates and social security #s ?

[Jan Powell]

Originally posted by Debb


In my state, if a mother applies for public assistance, she must provide information about the father, such as his name, address, etc. and prove that he does not live with her and that he does not provide her support for the child. Only then will she get the public assistance.

THEN. the state tracks the nonsupporting father down and files a child support action against him in court, requiring him to appear in court with his income documentation. The court will then enter an order that he not only pay ongoing child support to the mother, but that he REIMBURSE the state for funds they have advanced to the mother in the form of public assistance.

Why other states don't do this is amazing to me. [/*]

Your 1st paragraph is the main reason I would doubt that they were receiving public aid in TX. A birth certificate or DNA test proving parentage of the father (and apparently mother) wouldn't happen for a lot of reasons, IMO.

[interested]

Originally posted by AnnieBean
Did you notice how fast Austria came back with DNA on that perv who had his daughter locked in basement for 24 yrs and had 7 kids with her...? ONE DAY!! The day after the story broke, they were announcing DNA did indeed proved what the man admitted to...
How come WE can't get DNA testing done that fast????:cuss: [/*]


With such potential for inbreeding, they'll need to do RFLP testing to be certain. RFLP takes 3 weeks just to obtain the specimens needed to do the test.

PCR testing is much faster, but not as accurate.

http://library.thinkquest.org/19037/court2.html

They knew who the mother is in Austria, the strands that didn't match her, had to match the dad, or he isn't the dad.

[KatyDid]

Texas officials looking at possible abuse among FLDS boys

"In a written report, the agency said interviews and journal entries suggested young boys may have been sexually abused, but didn't elaborate."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080430/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat

:cuss:

[Rainkiss]

Originally posted by KatyDid
Texas officials looking at possible abuse among FLDS boys

"In a written report, the agency said interviews and journal entries suggested young boys may have been sexually abused, but didn't elaborate."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080430/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat

:cuss: [/*]

Anybody out there still want to send ANY of those kids back without a complete investigation?

[wandering]

Originally posted by KatyDid
Texas officials looking at possible abuse among FLDS boys

"In a written report, the agency said interviews and journal entries suggested young boys may have been sexually abused, but didn't elaborate."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080430/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat

:cuss: [/*]Nancy Grace reporting this as well. Also, she reports that they have found 41 broken bones among the children.

[wandering]

Originally posted by Cat2007


Wisconsin does. [/*]So does Tennessee.

[wandering]

Originally posted by Carol25

Let's go through these:
Household income - they will lie and say $0.00
social securty check - could use that, but information false?
child support check - do they check (is there a clearing house on who is receiving all gov't benefits)
Medicaid, TANF, Food stamps - does one agency know what the other is giving; If names are duplicated?

If many had one address, how are they getting $ if it is one check for a household.
If they have to provide imminuzation records and birth certificates, that would involve fraud also. Look at how many had chicken pox. The didn't have shots.

If Utah was anything like Texas, someone was making it awfully easy for them to get benefits. How far will this fraud go in utah? [/*]Maybe they are providing phony documents.

[wandering]

Just reported on NG that no medical records were kept, and they dont know who was injured or who died.

The doctor is a member of this cult/group.

In regard to documentation for welfare, TH just said they may have used fake documents.

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by wandering
Maybe they are providing phony documents. [/*]

THAT I wouldn't doubt for one tiny nano second.

walton posted a link some time back about their ability to obtain phony documents. They have a network of people who provide them. They also sell them to illegals.

[LLaFren]

hey guys!:seeya: just got home from a very long day at work...going to see what I missed today!

why does is feel like a Monday?barf

[wandering]

Originally posted by snoodles


False documents, yes. AND the fact that social workers are often overloaded with far more cases than they can handle, and let things slide. That's not a knock against overworked social workers who care about their clients, it's just a reality. [/*]And undoubtedly collecting on non-existent or dead children. After all, they don't have to drag the kids down there...

[wandering]

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz


It's a scary thought ... the thought of returning the kids ... no matter how you slice it. Even if the men are removed.

I don't suppose it's possible legally to force all the women to submit to deprogramming. I would be interested to know if there are legal definitions to describe the behavior of the women -- with regard to their fitness to mother -- that would preclude the children being returned to them.

I think anyone with the will to change deserves the chance to do so. I just don't feel very optimistic that this group will have any interest in it.

If you consider that the children are the result of some sort of numbers game in which the higher the number, the closer to heaven for the parents, then it seems to me that the women who are still of childbearing age will simply make more babies to replace the ones they've lost.

One's as good as the next seems to be the theme. I'm sure the women grow attached to 'the children,' but the squashing of individuality, the 'gang mothering' and the goal of a baby per year for every woman speaks volumes to me about how sort of 'unspecial' each individual child is in the group. [/*]From all that I have read, the girls are raised to believe that having children is their highest and most ultimate goal. That, imo, motivates them to accept these "marriages."

[tisamystery]

The medical profession expects to see 4 broken bones per 1000 children. That's 2 in 500.

Now, 41 in this group alone? Hmmmm.

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by tisamystery
The medical profession expects to see 4 broken bones per 1000 children. That's 2 in 500.

Now, 41 in this group alone? Hmmmm. [/*]

Doesn't sound good, does it? I have read 2 articles today in which a CPS spokesperson said they do not have complete medical records or X-rays on all the children, so I am wondering how many broken bones have occurred in the past that just would not be evident today.

[emdragon]

Originally posted by Mimi428


Doesn't sound good, does it? I have read 2 articles today in which a CPS spokesperson said they do not have complete medical records or X-rays on all the children, so I am wondering how many broken bones have occurred in the past that just would not be evident today. [/*]

I have three kids and of the three (2 are in their 20's now) only one ever broke a bone.. and it was her wrist)

If these kids were all out there playing contact sports maybe I could see a larger number of broken bones but that isn't the case here so that leaves only one explanation... ABUSE. how can anyone deny it now?

(ok two reasons, i guess it could be possible that they all have a rare genetic disorder that causes brittle bones... still leads to a single cause. ABUSE.)

[interested]

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz


Wow.

And the good Dr. Barlow's explanation is that they're just a bunch of healthy, rambunctious kids. :rolleyes:

Fascinating that these FLDS people just spit this stuff out and expect us to swallow it. I guess us 'outsiders' are assumed to be too misguided and just plain ignorant to question what they say. [/*]

Well this is obvious, the cause of these injuries. Lacking a single toy in the compound they all jumped off the roof in an attempt to fly being so rambunctious and all.


The FLDS is calculatingly cunning, they don't expect anyone to believe them, they just know the system well enough and cover themselves well enough legally that no one can "prove" the accusations. They know it, and it is an ongoing effort to skirt the law and legal system.

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by Mimi428


Doesn't sound good, does it? I have read 2 articles today in which a CPS spokesperson said they do not have complete medical records or X-rays on all the children, so I am wondering how many broken bones have occurred in the past that just would not be evident today. [/*]

I heard a TH doc the other day say there would always be evidence of a broken bone even after it healed. I suppose it scars the bone, or their is a heal line in the bone.

[wandering]

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz
I'm guessing fake documents, too.

And/or Jeffs has members in other states funneling cash to Eldorado. There's no other way to feed and clothe 400 kids and a few hundred adults in an environment where no one seems to have a regular job (that I'm aware of). I realize they attempt to be self-sufficient, but they still need income of some sort.

I don't imagine family expenses of those FLDS groups are on the order of the expenses of a normal family, but someone is funding all that technology - all those PC's, laptops, electronic storage devices, cell phones and the like. [/*]This particular compound was a business unto itself, and was continually awarded government contracts to manufacture I don't remember what. They reportedly used the young boys for free labor. They are rich.

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by emdragon


I have three kids and of the three (2 are in their 20's now) only one ever broke a bone.. and it was her wrist)

If these kids were all out there playing contact sports maybe I could see a larger number of broken bones but that isn't the case here so that leaves only one explanation... ABUSE. how can anyone deny it now?

(ok two reasons, i guess it could be possible that they all have a rare genetic disorder that causes brittle bones... still leads to a single cause. ABUSE.) [/*]

Funny how with everything that has been written about the medical issues caused by the inbreeding, no doctor has mentioned brittle bone. JUST the doctor that is one of them and paid by them to lie for the lord.

[cloe23]

Hello all:seeya:

I have been a slacker with this forum. I read above that the abuse of the children is suspected to more then sexual, broken bones.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24388249&GT1=43001
MSNBC staff and news service reports
updated 3:06 p.m. CT, Wed., April. 30, 2008
AUSTIN, Texas - Texas officials told legislators Wednesday that they’re investigating the possible sexual abuse of some young boys taken from a polygamist sect’s ranch, as well as broken bones among other children.

My theory/ scenario here is what if the parents had no idea that their children had broken bones? If the abuse came from a elder sister or uncle. Since the children do not cry, I cant at this point place blame on the younger parents.
JMO
Cloe

[xray ra]

Originally posted by Mimi428


Doesn't sound good, does it? I have read 2 articles today in which a CPS spokesperson said they do not have complete medical records or X-rays on all the children, so I am wondering how many broken bones have occurred in the past that just would not be evident today. [/*]

A standard test used for many, many years has been the "bone-age radiographs. Included in the short series of films are x-rays of the wrists to measure the epiphases ( where the ends of the bones have not grown to the joints yet). If they were trying to determine the ages of the children, they might have taken some wrist films and discovered the fractures (old) this way.
:patriot:

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by cloe23
Hello all:seeya:

I have been a slacker with this forum. I read above that the abuse of the children is suspected to more then sexual, broken bones.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24388249&GT1=43001
MSNBC staff and news service reports
updated 3:06 p.m. CT, Wed., April. 30, 2008
AUSTIN, Texas - Texas officials told legislators Wednesday that they’re investigating the possible sexual abuse of some young boys taken from a polygamist sect’s ranch, as well as broken bones among other children.

My theory/ scenario here is what if the parents had no idea that their children had broken bones? If the abuse came from a elder sister or uncle. Since the children do not cry, I cant at this point place blame on the younger parents.
JMO
Cloe [/*]

Hiya Cloe :seeya:

If those kids didn't cry from a broken bone, they are much stronger than many adults I know. It probably depends on how bad the breaks were.

[cloe23]

Originally posted by KatyDid


Funny how with everything that has been written about the medical issues caused by the inbreeding, no doctor has mentioned brittle bone. JUST the doctor that is one of them and paid by them to lie for the lord. [/*]

Hi KatyDid:seeya:
I have thought about the inbreeding myself. I watched a show about children who are the survivors of these types of lifestyles.
The one gal that was interviewed appeared to me to have many of the appearance's that a child with down syndrome has, she appeared to be slower then the other children that were interviewed.
To me it screamed in-bread, but without a link I didn't bring it up.
But since you did, I will have to agree. I would love to know the IQ and functioning level of these younger children.
Cloe

[wandering]

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz


I think I read at one of the links that the biggest FLDS operation in terms of winning lucrative government contracts is in Las Vegas now, having relocated from the Short Creek area with a new name. That's IIRC.

I'm not sure if there's a direct link between the Vegas operation and the compound in Eldorado, but I haven't seen anything about any operations actually being run out of the Texas compound.

That's why I suggest that Jeffs could be funneling Vegas money over to his people in Eldorado, since that compound is rumored to have been built as the sort of 'flagship' FLDS compound, with the big honking temple and all. He has a vested interest in keeping it afloat by whatever means, is my guess.

I'd be interested, though, if anyone here has researched it, to know if there actually are some 'legitimate' businesses being run out of the Eldorado compound similar to the operation in Vegas. [/*]yes, I think you are correct, but isn't this compound an off-shoot of the Jeffs one in Vegas? Wasn't it planned by Jeffs that the best,most devoted would move to this one? I believe that is where the money comes from, and that they are connected.

[emdragon]

Originally posted by KatyDid


Funny how with everything that has been written about the medical issues caused by the inbreeding, no doctor has mentioned brittle bone. JUST the doctor that is one of them and paid by them to lie for the lord. [/*]

I hadn't even heard the DR was saying brittle bone until after I posted. Funny he is using that as an innocent reason for all the broken bones when as I said, to me it would prove the inbreeding.

[tisamystery]

As I posted in another thread, if the FLDS kids have brittle bone you would think the parents would have alerted CPS to take care with them.

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by Marvelous
What's all the hoopla about? This has gone on for years at the Arizona, Utah border towns and cities. [/*]

UNFORTUNATELY!!

Thank goodness Texas has the guts to bring it out and not bury it like Utah and Arizona have done for YEARS!

Too bad the politicians and law enforcement in those two states chose to do nothing with the many, many complaints they have. They just shoved them under the rug. Made some lying for the lord statement and changed the subject.

It is the most shameful thing I think a state government would ever be faced with. They openly condoned the abuse of women and children.

The Utah government had an opportunity to investigate this mess. It went before the legislature for a vote. I forget what the vote was, something like 47-22 against the investigation of tax fraud and abuse of women and children.

No, it wasn't because the cost was too high. It was a mere $200K to fund the investigation. It was simply because the majority of those voting condoned the practice. It would uncover too many secrets not only about FLDS but LDS.

Utah and Arizona :no:

Texas :patriot:

[wandering]

Originally posted by emdragon


I hadn't even heard the DR was saying brittle bone until after I posted. Funny he is using that as an innocent reason for all the broken bones when as I said, to me it would prove the inbreeding. [/*]Two TH doctors on NG said children don't have brittle bones, they are "resilient." They said brittle bones have nothing to do with in-breeding.

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by tisamystery
As I posted in another thread, if the FLDS kids have brittle bone you would think the parents would have alerted CPS to take care with them. [/*]

They care so much for those children :shrug:

It's all a bunch of lies.

[lotty]

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/16/flds-linked-to-low-bid-construction-firms/
FLDS linked to low-bid construction firms
BY THOMAS HARGROVE and GAVIN OFF, Scripps Howard News Service

Wednesday, April 16, 2008


Among the projects that JNJ Engineering has won in recent years:

$4 million to build a flood-control improvement project for Las Vegas. Construction began in February and is expected to last 11 months.
$2.4 million to revitalize or build 6,500 feet of walking trails, 1,500 feet of paved road and 16 picnic areas in a nature preserve for the Las Vegas Valley Water District in 2005.
$1.6 million to replace and upgrade the service lines between water meter and water mains. The Las Vegas Valley Water District awarded the contract in June 2005.
$880,500 to improve street drainage for the Pima County Regional Flood Control District in Arizona in a contract awarded in 2005.

[lotty]

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz


Yep - I'm sure they're all connected through Jeffs. He is, after all, the prophet. :rolleyes:

And I also recall reading something about Jeffs allowing only the best of the best to live in Eldorado. What an honor, eh? :rolleyes: [/*]
http://media.www.asurampage.com/media/storage/paper896/news/2005/04/08/Views/West-Texas.Community.Could.Become.A.Threat-2674793.shtml

West Texas Community Could Become a Threat
By Robert Stiles
By: Circulation Manager
Issue date: 4/8/05 Section: Views

For the past year, the residents of Schleicher County have watched a splinter Mormon group purchase land in their area and rapidly build a new community in which to live.

Since then, the West Texas county has become the home to a strange, and possibly abusive, religious group.

The group is the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Initially, the church’s agent bought a 1,600-acre hunting ranch.

However, soon the gates were locked and crews proceeded to build large dormitories, houses, workshops and even a limestone quarry.

Currently, the members of the FLDS live a secluded existence in the twin cities of Hildale , Utah , and Colorado City , Ariz.

The property in these cities is the principal source of wealth for Warren Jeffs, the leader of the group.

It is believed to have as many as 10,000 members, and the number of people currently in the Schleicher County compound is unknown.

However, all that could change with a motion filed by attorney Roger Hoole before a Utah judge. This motion could remove him as head of the United Effort Plan, a charitable trust which controls almost all of the church’s assets in the twin cities which house most members of the FLDS, according to a February 24, 2004 , article in the Eldorado Success.

According to a March 20, 2005 article in the Marin (CA) Independent Journal, Jeffs is getting ready to move his most loyal followers to the Schleicher County compound, known as the YFZ Ranch.

[walton]

If you haven't seen the film Banking on Heaven you should.

http://bankingonheaven.com/ Watch/ listen to the trailer.

Ruth Cooke talks about hiding under the stairwell with her 2 handicapped children. :(

Listen to what Elaine Jeffs has to say about someone drowning a baby because it was born deformed.



Dr. Lloyd Barlow was one of the many vistors that Warren Jeffs received when he first went to jail. I've been trying to back track and see if he is one of the Doctors that said Warren was having a break down.

This man should not only have his license revoked period but he should never be allowed to practice again. jmo

He saw it all. He heard it all. He lived it all. And did nothing.
:flamemad:

[walton]

A friend of mine told me that there was a special on tv the other night. Of course I missed it. WE channel I think she said.

She also gave me this link. Please listen to the audio.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=89979940

Meanwhile, some of the children in the FLDS group suffer from fumarase deficiency, a genetic disease that causes acute retardation and physical deformation. The disease was spread through decades of inbreeding, according to John Dougherty, an investigative reporter who has written extensively about the polygamist sect.

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by KatyDid


I heard a TH doc the other day say there would always be evidence of a broken bone even after it healed. I suppose it scars the bone, or their is a heal line in the bone. [/*]

Calcification will show up along the fracture lines & will be visible on xrays.

I can't imagine that CPS could or would give full body x-rays to all the children - there would have to be a medical necessity before any xrays could be done. That's why I'm wondering how many have healed fractures that wouldn't be evident UNLESS xrays were taken.

[Freebird]

Originally posted by Aame


Thanks Carol, I knew you would be so kind. ;)

This is so sad, and oh so sick. These poor babies.

Probably do it so the children don't experience the seperation anxiety, most go through at 6-9 months of age. [/*]

I would imagine these 5-year-olds are feeling separation anxiety now.

[Freebird]

Originally posted by Carol25

NO! NO! The children cannot go back with their mothers! Unless they are teenagers. but then, they would have to go through psychological tests to show they are capable of being good parents.
The teen mothers should be able to be teenagers. But allowed to visiti their babies as long s they wish. They would probably be more like brother and sister for some of them. Those who are ready to be mothers would be ready to accept that role under strict supervision. Therapists would probably know how best to handle this. But I don't think their bond should be broken if one is made. [/*]

Yes,the teen mothers should be allowed to be teens.Which is precisely why if any of these mothers lose their kids,it should be the teen mothers.It has nothing to do with the FLDS.It has to do with the fact that teens aren't ready to be mothers(unlike the ranch's older mothers).It's very hard for a teen mother to be a teen with a kid hanging around her neck.And it's not helping the kid either.

[Rainkiss]

Originally posted by Freebird


Yes,the teen mothers should be allowed to be teens.Which is precisely why if any of these mothers lose their kids,it should be the teen mothers.It has nothing to do with the FLDS.It has to do with the fact that teens aren't ready to be mothers(unlike the ranch's older mothers).It's very hard for a teen mother to be a teen with a kid hanging around her neck.And it's not helping the kid either. [/*]

Freebird... Are you honestly saying that the mothers who are old enough to have given their older girls away as brides to men twice (or more) their own ages are the ones who should have their daughters returned to them? The mothers who have sons old enough to have been sexually abused by these men should have their younger sons returned? Do I understand you correctly?

[walton]

Originally posted by grammybear
**snipped**

We had a story on our local news tonight about the LeBarron group. 3 of the sons of I believe Russell LeBarons family has come forward with information about this man having children with his daughters. Of course LeBaron has denied the whole think, but I have a hard time believing him.
I also suspect we are looking at the end of this cult. I think that people are sick of hearing about the fraud, abuse and imbreeding that has now come to light. It is time for all the states to ban together and investigate and charge people who have been breaking these laws for over 100 years.
**snipped**
jmoo [/*]

Here is a link to the story Grammy is talking about: http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3202636

The adult sons of Ross LeBaron, Jr. accuse him of fathering several children with his own daughter because of his beliefs about the re-incarnation of Jesus Christ. LeBaron denies the accusations. But his sons say they've collected D.N.A. evidence to back up their claims of incest.

David Uri LeBaron, the son of Ross LeBbaron, Jr., says, "We've done D.N.A. testing. We know what's going on. And we're here to find a way to put an end to it."

The three sons say Ross LeBaron is a polygamist and may have spiritually married his own daughter, their sister. They're convinced he impregnated her four times because of a fundamentalist belief called the "pure seed doctrine." They're going public because they're worried that Utah incest law may prevent anyone involved from being prosecuted.



Check out the video. This is scary.

[LLaFren]

Morning All:seeya:

I started the new daily thread...

See ya there!!

[Devotion]

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz

The actual goal, though, is NOT to raise independent children who become productive members of the larger society.
The goal is to cover the earth with FLDS'ers, apparently.

That makes the goal NOT about the children at all, when you really think about it.

It's about breeding believers in the highest numbers possible....... [/*]

GollyG, Well said.
It's obvious the cult is NOT raising these children to be independent PRODUCTIVE members of society.

It's not about Quality it's about Quanity.

What does it tell us when the children are NOT getting a high school/ college education?

They are raising these children to be "used" like worker bee's in a bee-hive. No education, no escape.
It's all about mind control, sex and money...imo

How would you like to know, a group of uneducated kids that can hardly read or write, are building buildings and parts for our military defense etc.?......jmo