Daily Thread 4/28

[LLaFren]

Good Morning all! :seeya:

[LLaFren]

How can they say they're missing, if the kids don't even know who their parents are?


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,352756,00.html

The lawyer representing two mothers from the compound said the boys aren't on any of the state's placement lists. Child welfare officials told a Corpus Christi newspaper that no children have been lost, but parent-child relationships are difficult to determine.

[Rainkiss]

Originally posted by LLaFren
How can they say they're missing, if the kids don't even know who their parents are?


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,352756,00.html

The lawyer representing two mothers from the compound said the boys aren't on any of the state's placement lists. Child welfare officials told a Corpus Christi newspaper that no children have been lost, but parent-child relationships are difficult to determine. [/*]

It's also possible that the lists don't have correct names for the boys, since the children have been trained to lie to authorities.

[walton]

http://www.childbrides.org/fight_AP_firms_seeks_to_withdraw_from_lawsuit.html

A law firm that has long represented a southern Utah polygamous sect is seeking to withdraw as its counsel in two lawsuits.

In court documents filed Thursday in 3rd District Court, lawyers for the Salt Lake City-based firm Snow, Christensen and Martineau said the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints "insist(s) upon a course of conduct with which their lawyers have a fundamental disagreement."

The two cases involve the FLDS church and its reclusive president, Warren Jeffs, and Sam Barlow, a former marshal in the FLDS town of Colorado City, Ariz. Also named is the United Effort Plan Trust, the sect's charitable entity that owns most of the land in the polygamous twin cities of Hildale and Colorado City, Ariz.


Is Rod Parker still with this firm?

[walton]

http://209.85.207.104/search?q=cache:wr45rT8KnLUJ:www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0604/S00117.htm+Snow,+Christensen+and+Martineau+warren+ jeffs&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us

According to Jay Beswick, Parker represented both the now-unseated Hildale polygamist judge Walter Steed and convicted Colorado City polygamist cop Rodney Holm. Parker is with the law firm of Snow, Christensen and Martineau, which also represents the State of Utah. Rodney Parker is also the registered agent of the FLDS Corporations and Twin City Academy, Inc. in Hildale; all the above in good standing in the State of Utah.

Parker previously served in Bush I's administration as Associate Deputy Attorney General "on the immediate staff" of the Deputy Attorney General of the US in Washington, D.C.

Harold G. Christensen, Counsel at Snow Christensen, served as Deputy Attorney General of the US in both Bush I's and Ronald Reagan's administration. Martineau's official biography reveals that he was born in the Colonia Juarez polygamy colony where Mitt Romney's father grew up.



:seeya:

I am late for work. :eek:

[LLaFren]

Originally posted by Rainkiss


It's also possible that the lists don't have correct names for the boys, since the children have been trained to lie to authorities. [/*]

I didn't think about that!

[tisamystery]

Originally posted by walton
http://www.childbrides.org/fight_AP_firms_seeks_to_withdraw_from_lawsuit.html

A law firm that has long represented a southern Utah polygamous sect is seeking to withdraw as its counsel in two lawsuits.

In court documents filed Thursday in 3rd District Court, lawyers for the Salt Lake City-based firm Snow, Christensen and Martineau said the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints "insist(s) upon a course of conduct with which their lawyers have a fundamental disagreement."

The two cases involve the FLDS church and its reclusive president, Warren Jeffs, and Sam Barlow, a former marshal in the FLDS town of Colorado City, Ariz. Also named is the United Effort Plan Trust, the sect's charitable entity that owns most of the land in the polygamous twin cities of Hildale and Colorado City, Ariz.


Is Rod Parker still with this firm? [/*]

You do realize that article is from 2004, right?

Interesting aht the United Effort Plan Trust is referred to as a "charitable entity". One thinks of a charity as a non-profit organization that assists the needy. It appears this "charity" owned the land and houses in which the members lived. I can't imagine what "charity" the UEP offered.

[tisamystery]

Originally posted by walton
http://209.85.207.104/search?q=cache:wr45rT8KnLUJ:www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0604/S00117.htm+Snow,+Christensen+and+Martineau+warren+ jeffs&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us
SNIPPED
[/*]

Link not working.

[tisamystery]

Originally posted by Rainkiss


It's also possible that the lists don't have correct names for the boys, since the children have been trained to lie to authorities. [/*]

Good point, that.

[Devotion]

Originally posted by tisamystery

You do realize that article is from 2004, right?

Interesting that the United Effort Plan Trust is referred to as a "charitable entity".

One thinks of a charity as a non-profit organization that assists the needy.

It appears this "CHARITY" owned the land and houses in which the members lived.

I can't imagine what "charity" the UEP offered..... [/*]

DEFINITELY another Loop-hole,
using the word "charity" this time,
to OUTSMART the state and it's tax payers.

I personally think "religions" and "charity's" should be taxed so this type of abuse would STOP. Nothing being tax-free BUT the church/worship building.

It seems there is other abuse to the system" from the Quote below:
IF the Tax Payers are paying 1 Million $$ a month OR 12 Million $$ a year for HEALTH INSURANCE PREMIUMS....
I'd like someone to explain WHY isn't the Insurance Companys PAYING the Medical Bills for these people, children, instead of the tax payers???..

QUOTE:
by receiving more than $12 MILLION A YEAR
in state assistance in Arizona to PAY for health-INSURANCE premiums.

It turns out that taxpayers also have been FOOTING THE BILL
for the fumarase deficiency children born to

polygamists who insist that plural marriage involving close relatives is their DIVINE RIGHT.....

Does anyone see something WRONG with this picture?........moo

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by Rainkiss


It's also possible that the lists don't have correct names for the boys, since the children have been trained to lie to authorities. [/*]

Has CPS done a head count? Does 2+2=4? If so, the kids are there.

These people lie for the lord...how do we know THEY are telling the truth and not trying to set up a situation to bolster their continued pleas to the Texas governor. Were these boys old enough to be in on an escape plan with the parent?

I don't know, I'm just saying...

:shrug:

Good Morning EV1 :seeya:

[spirit07]

Originally posted by KatyDid


Has CPS done a head count? Does 2+2=4? If so, the kids are there.

These people lie for the lord...how do we know THEY are telling the truth and not trying to set up a situation to bolster their continued pleas to the Texas governor. Were these boys old enough to be in on an escape plan with the parent?

I don't know, I'm just saying...

:shrug:

Good Morning EV1 :seeya: [/*]

It's just odd that these people do not seem to have made it clear who all the parents are of these children. It doesn't seem like enough parents could have possibly come forward? Although it seems another 25 of the girls in custody are mothers themselves - I don't know if this has changed again, but that would mean at least 35 of the children are mothers of some of the other children.

Maybe I am wrong, but how would the state even know if the 'missing children' ever existed? I get a little angry when people obsfucate the process then start pointing their finger at others.

I really want the members of the sect to tell the public how they have sustained or plan to sustain a 3/1 ratio of women to men.

[VC2]

Originally posted by spirit07


It's just odd that these people do not seem to have made it clear who all the parents are of these children. It doesn't seem like enough parents could have possibly come forward? Although it seems another 25 of the girls in custody are mothers themselves - I don't know if this has changed again, but that would mean at least 35 of the children are mothers of some of the other children.

Maybe I am wrong, but how would the state even know if the 'missing children' ever existed? I get a little angry when people obsfucate the process then start pointing their finger at others.

I really want the members of the sect to tell the public how they have sustained or plan to sustain a 3/1 ratio of women to men. [/*]

I am not really sure the women themselves know who their bio children are in all cases. (not talking bout infants here) It seems to me the word "mother" is used as a general word for caregiver and i would not put it past the leaders to have separated babies from bio moms or switched them around after a year or so to be cared for by others. Just a feeling i got watching the one who showed cnn around inside

The 2nd possibility is that they are so indoctrinated into the "mother" of all the kids attitude that they really believe the children in their care are their own kids. With few birth records then how can they really tell?

I have no doubt though that it would make sense for the leaders to separate bio from each other - hard to escape if you aren't sure which is your child - that some form of that has happened.

Either way though the women are terrified and unable to speak out if the cult has ordered them not to answer. Since to disobey would be to go to hell along with whatever retribution they would get in the cult itself.

jmo

[Ladyhawk]

Originally posted by LLaFren
How can they say they're missing, if the kids don't even know who their parents are?


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,352756,00.html

The lawyer representing two mothers from the compound said the boys aren't on any of the state's placement lists. Child welfare officials told a Corpus Christi newspaper that no children have been lost, but parent-child relationships are difficult to determine. [/*]

What are the possibilities that the "missing" boys have been claimed by some other mother(s) or the "missing" boys are actually sent-away boys whose birth records may turn up in the FLDS paper evidence...good opportunity to explain their absence.

Why is it always the mothers pleading....I'm tired of not hearing anything from the fathers!!!

jmoo

[Rainkiss]

Considering that, when the police arrived at the ranch, they were informed that there were 250 people living on the ranch, I've gotta wonder about the head counting ability of the FLDS. And, with all the name-changing going on, who's to say that the whole "two of our children are lost" claim isn't another ploy for sympathy by the FLDS?

Or, that it isn't a cover-up for the last two boys who were banished from the community for the terrible sin of wearing short-sleeves, and were still on the welfare roster?

[Ladyhawk]

So, the FLDS has plenty of money but the mothers are being represented by Legal Aid.....I guess the males of the sect don't want to pony up any dollars for legal help for their women.

Further down in the article it gives the ages of the 2 "missing" boys....11yrs old and 16months.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695274226,00.html

[KatyDid]

You folks are making some great points in your posts.

IMO, they are all good possibilities.

It sounds like CPS has a full and total head count of the kids to make the statement no children are missing.

If these women and the cult hadn't confused things so terribly with their lies and their hiding information, they wouldn't be in this position. I say these people should PROVE these boys were on the ranch and were taken by CPS.

I agree, it i most likely a ploy to get more attention and lay blame on others instead of themselves.

:seeya:

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by Ladyhawk
So, the FLDS has plenty of money but the mothers are being represented by Legal Aid.....I guess the males of the sect don't want to pony up any dollars for legal help for their women.

Further down in the article it gives the ages of the 2 "missing" boys....11yrs old and 16months.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695274226,00.html [/*]

The missing fathers and elders are using the money to hide their cowardly backsides. :tongue:

Hmmm, 11 y/o and 16 mo. I guess 16 mo wouldn't be an age to be banished from the ranch. These women have photos of their prophets hanging on the wall, I'm wondering if they provided photos of these 'missing' boys, a birth certificate to prove they exist, and the last school records of the 11 y/o. When was his last progress report from the school on the ranch, etc.

Apparently they get graded on their school performance. Marilyn said her daughter Marva got an A+ on a school paper.

[Ladyhawk]

same link
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695274226,00.html
2 Young FLDS Boys Unaccounted For
By Brian West
Deseret News Published: Sunday, April 27, 2008 1:16 a.m. MDT

quote:
-----------
"Martinez said her office received information from one of the foster facilities Saturday that a 2-year-old child from one of the mothers they represent was hospitalized and in the intensive care unit. Yet when the child's guardian ad litem called the hospital, she was told there was no one there with that child's name.

The judge told CPS to allow mothers to be with their children when they got sick, Martinez said. "Not only is this mother not able to confirm where her child is or what her current health situation is, but the mother is not being allowed to be with this child or her other nursing children," she said."
-----------

Or her other nursing children!?! Ok, she's got 1 child 2 yrs old that she evidently is still nursing (the one she's not being allowed to be with)....she could possibly have at least one more younger than 2 that's she's nursing but then she'd have to have one older than 2 that is still nursing or they wouldn't say "other nursing children" or......when all the mothers take care of all the children does that include nursing too...do all nursing mothers nurse all nursing children?

[Devotion]

Originally posted by Ladyhawk

What are the possibilities that the "missing" boys have been claimed by some other mother(s)

or the "missing" boys are actually sent-away boys whose birth records may turn up in the FLDS paper evidence...
good opportunity to explain their absence.

Why is it always the mothers pleading....

I'm tired of not hearing anything from the fathers!!!

jmoo [/*]

The BUGS usually scatter when you turn on the Lights!!!......jmo

[not.another]

I thought all the children going to foster care was sad....but this takes the cake. Is nothing sacred?
http://www.polygamakeover.com/

[Devotion]

Originally posted by Ladyhawk

So, the FLDS has plenty of money but the mothers are being represented by Legal Aid.....

I guess the males of the sect don't want to pony up any dollars for legal help for their women.

Further down in the article it gives the ages of the 2 "missing" boys....11yrs old and 16months.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695274226,00.html [/*]

Here WE go paying their bills again!!!

Seems there's plenty of money "coming in" to the sect,
and NONE going out....

IMO.. masters of manipulation, the men possibly did something with these 2 children,
to make us look Bad and to divert the attention OFF them!.....jmo

[spirit07]

Originally posted by Ladyhawk
Or her other nursing children!?! Ok, she's got 1 child 2 yrs old that she evidently is still nursing (the one she's not being allowed to be with)....she could possibly have at least one more younger than 2 that's she's nursing but then she'd have to have one older than 2 that is still nursing or they wouldn't say "other nursing children" or......when all the mothers take care of all the children does that include nursing too...do all nursing mothers nurse all nursing children? [/*]

I think these women should be told, "We are not reporting on your story unless you provide the full names, birth date, and name of the father related to the children you are talking about." I never see stories where so much is reported from different people that are not even identified. At the least, I would like to see more validated before reported, otherwise the press is just serving as a mouthpiece for these sect members.

[evalles]

Originally posted by Ladyhawk
same link
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695274226,00.html
2 Young FLDS Boys Unaccounted For
By Brian West
Deseret News Published: Sunday, April 27, 2008 1:16 a.m. MDT

quote:
-----------
"Martinez said her office received information from one of the foster facilities Saturday that a 2-year-old child from one of the mothers they represent was hospitalized and in the intensive care unit. Yet when the child's guardian ad litem called the hospital, she was told there was no one there with that child's name.

The judge told CPS to allow mothers to be with their children when they got sick, Martinez said. "Not only is this mother not able to confirm where her child is or what her current health situation is, but the mother is not being allowed to be with this child or her other nursing children," she said."
-----------

Or her other nursing children!?! Ok, she's got 1 child 2 yrs old that she evidently is still nursing (the one she's not being allowed to be with)....she could possibly have at least one more younger than 2 that's she's nursing but then she'd have to have one older than 2 that is still nursing or they wouldn't say "other nursing children" or......when all the mothers take care of all the children does that include nursing too...do all nursing mothers nurse all nursing children? [/*]

Why the hell is this baby in ICU ? You have to be pretty darn sick to be in ICU. The foster mother in the case would know more in this case than the social worker ot the GAL. Is that the extent, making a phone call to the hospital ? Why didn't she call the foster mom first ?

More BS from the state ? The GAL obviously has this child's name and knows who the mother is.

[evalles]

Originally posted by not.another
I thought all the children going to foster care was sad....but this takes the cake. Is nothing sacred?
http://www.polygamakeover.com/ [/*]

Now that's journalism. Not.

[evalles]

Originally posted by essiemadge
great idea, get the school records and handwriting of the so called missing 11 year old. then it should be easy to identify him if he is with the group. i bet the baby is with his birth mother , one of the underage girls. [/*]

The people responsible for these children should know where they are.

[Rainkiss]

Anything I'd guess about the child in the ICU would be pure speculation... This could be one of the children they have with genetic disorders. Could be he, like any kid could, was playing, fell, and hurt himself. Could be anything, and I'm sure if it was a case of abuse by a foster parent, it'll be all over the news. (I'm willing to say that foster abuse is possible, here, but I refuse to give that possibility any more weight than any other, until I hear differently.)

As for calling the hospital... I've called the hospital shortly after an emergency, and not been able to find the person admitted. Takes time to get someone in the system, especially if it's someone who was in, say, the emergency room to begin with, then transferred to a different area, like ICU. And, again, we've got the difficulties presented when nobody involved in this mess gives the same name every time they're spoken to.

[evalles]

Originally posted by Rainkiss
Anything I'd guess about the child in the ICU would be pure speculation... This could be one of the children they have with genetic disorders. Could be he, like any kid could, was playing, fell, and hurt himself. Could be anything, and I'm sure if it was a case of abuse by a foster parent, it'll be all over the news. (I'm willing to say that foster abuse is possible, here, but I refuse to give that possibility any more weight than any other, until I hear differently.)

As for calling the hospital... I've called the hospital shortly after an emergency, and not been able to find the person admitted. Takes time to get someone in the system, especially if it's someone who was in, say, the emergency room to begin with, then transferred to a different area, like ICU. And, again, we've got the difficulties presented when nobody involved in this mess gives the same name every time they're spoken to. [/*]

That's why the GAL should have called the foster parents first.
How long will it take them to figure it out before the mom gets to see her sick baby ? I'd be going nuts.

[tisamystery]

do all nursing mothers nurse all nursing children? [/*]

That's my hunch. Sort to reinforces the "they're all your children" propaganda they've been fed.

[Roux]

Originally posted by evalles


Why the hell is this baby in ICU ? You have to be pretty darn sick to be in ICU. The foster mother in the case would know more in this case than the social worker ot the GAL. Is that the extent, making a phone call to the hospital ? Why didn't she call the foster mom first ?

More BS from the state ? The GAL obviously has this child's name and knows who the mother is. [/*]

You speak of "the foster mother in the case" but it was my understanding that all of the children are in facilities/group homes, not individual homes which you imply. Is this not the case?

And the comment by the GAL doesn't make sense -- if the hospital could not identify the name of the child which she gave when she called to inquire, they could certainly determine what child was admitted by age and the CPS rep or group home who brought the child in to the hospital.

[cloe23]

Originally posted by LLaFren
How can they say they're missing, if the kids don't even know who their parents are?


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,352756,00.html

The lawyer representing two mothers from the compound said the boys aren't on any of the state's placement lists. Child welfare officials told a Corpus Christi newspaper that no children have been lost, but parent-child relationships are difficult to determine. [/*]

I feel for the mothers who are missing their children but if they comply wont they get them back? At this time I feel the mothers have clouded minds and would not believe a thing they said, until after deprogramming. JOM
I wonder with the older women could ever be reprogrammed?
'Give me your mind until your twelve and its mine forever!' = Hitler .
A thought on the missing boys maybe they were more severely abused but they elder uncles(Seth Jeffs) that they are actually in hidden housing?y
What a mess, and what were they thinking? Thats al lot of kids.

[spydernweb2006]

I just got home from work, pulled up the news and saw this:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080428/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat;_ylt=AvgvkJyEPrvSvvTxIra_5p.s0N UE

I cannot express how DISGUSTED I am with the FLDS for their treatment of young girls. They are no better then any common pedofile in my book.

JMHO

Hugs,

Spyder

[Roux]

While I appreciate and understand the necessity of confidentiality regarding the children, their medical conditions, etc. Texas needs to do something about this PR blitz the FLDS is putting forth. They need to speak out and tell the public more about what happened and what is going on. I dare say by the far the majority of the people who watch the news don't know nearly as much as we do about the situation and if they saw Dateline last night they probably have a very distorted view of the truth.

[VC2]

31 OF 53 TEEN GIRLS HAVE BEEN PREGNANT :flamemad:

Child Protective Services spokesman Darrell Azar says 53 girls between the ages of 14 and 17 were living on the ranch in Eldorado. Of that group, 31 already have children or are pregnant.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,352966,00.html

[Charity]

Originally posted by spydernweb2006
I just got home from work, pulled up the news and saw this:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080428/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat;_ylt=AvgvkJyEPrvSvvTxIra_5p.s0N UE

I cannot express how DISGUSTED I am with the FLDS for their treatment of young girls. They are no better then any common pedofile in my book.

JMHO

Hugs,

Spyder [/*]

Oh my dear Lord. It's worse than I feared it would be. Nearly 60% of all the girls in that age range have been or are pregnant. And who doubts that the majority of the rest of them have been violated, perhaps just "fortunate" enough not to have become pregnant. YET.

Thank you for sharing, Spyder. It breaks my heart to know this, but we all need to know. Perhaps now some of those who doubted the existence or extent of the abuse or felt it might have been consensual sex among teenagers will reconsider that position and realize that these children desperately need rescuing from that environment. I hope none of the children -- not a single one -- are returned to that cult setting.

Heartbreaking....truly. :(

[VC2]

actually that number makes me see more clearly why the mothers did not "protect" their kids.

This is wholesale child molestation as a way of life, so entrenched that no one saw anything wrong with it. When all the females live as if this is the norm..how are you meant to think there is anything to protect your daughters from :shrug:

[walton]

The ranch is only 4 years old. If these kids moved out there when they first started building- they would have been between the ages of 10 and 13.

31 of 53. Utah proudly boasts that they were putting the heat on the FLDS and they chased them to Texas.

Had they even tried to protect the kids at any point in Utah.. these kids and their kids would not be the victims we talk about today.





:(

[walton]

Originally posted by tisamystery


Link not working. [/*]

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0604/S00117.htm

I think I got it fixed. Thanks.

[VC2]

Originally posted by walton
The ranch is only 4 years old. If these kids moved out there when they first started building- they would have been between the ages of 10 and 13.

31 of 53. Utah proudly boasts that they were putting the heat on the FLDS and they chased them to Texas.

Had they even tried to protect the kids at any point in Utah.. these kids and their kids would not be the victims we talk about today.

:( [/*]

If the authorities in Arizona, colorado and utah with fdls camps don't do something now this news is out, they themselves should be charged with child endangerment!!!!! There can be no argument that its just an occasional young woman who wants to marry a nice middle aged man and she is voluntarily making the choice at age 17 or whatever.

This is an outrage. Forget polygamy, consenting adults want to have lots of wives fine. but to do this to the children in the name of God :flamemad: and to the women..they grew up as children in this nasty little cult. They didn't stand a chance imo, just as their children don't have a chance to learn anything differently. As i said before, there may be a few that were "misfits' and so had the ability to see past the brainwashing and the courage to leave but most can't and if they had an inkling it didn't feel right would have put it down to the devil at work in them.

3/4s of the teens have had kids or are pregnant. Nope..not an aberration.

I hope the country DEMANDS that all fdls sects have the children removed until its determiend they are not a part of this wholesale molestation of young women/children. The stupid sheriff who criticized texas..well take these numbers and stuff them up the butt you are sitting on doing nothing to protect kids in your county.

its SICKENING.

imo

[Poochie Pie]

Originally posted by VC2


If the authorities in Arizona, colorado and utah with fdls camps don't do something now this news is out, they themselves should be charged with child endangerment!!!!! There can be no argument that its just an occasional young woman who wants to marry a nice middle aged man and she is voluntarily making the choice at age 17 or whatever.

This is an outrage. Forget polygamy, consenting adults want to have lots of wives fine. but to do this to the children in the name of God :flamemad: and to the women..they grew up as children in this nasty little cult. They didn't stand a chance imo, just as their children don't have a chance to learn anything differently. As i said before, there may be a few that were "misfits' and so had the ability to see past the brainwashing and the courage to leave but most can't and if they had an inkling it didn't feel right would have put it down to the devil at work in them.

3/4s of the teens have had kids or are pregnant. Nope..not an aberration.

I hope the country DEMANDS that all fdls sects have the children removed until its determiend they are not a part of this wholesale molestation of young women/children. The stupid sheriff who criticized texas..well take these numbers and stuff them up the butt you are sitting on doing nothing to protect kids in your county.

its SICKENING.

imo [/*] It certainly IS sickening, VC2..!!

Poochie

[wandering]

Originally posted by AnnieBean
I just bought Carolyn Jessops book ESCAPE today and am already on page 75- I am literally going :eek: on every page...shocking and hard to imagine this is happening in a "civilized" country like this....I won't even go into "in the name of God" because that really enrages me even more.

Apparently this is not the first time this group of sick twists has been raided, there was another time long ago and some 200+ children were taken, plus the women and men, but the number of people were too overwhelming for the system to bear, per Carolyn Jessop.....so they were allowed to return to their town and way of life...I hope they don't let them go back to the same old/ same old again this time.....

Carolyn said her children had to be de-programmed (I beleive that was her exact word) in her book, and listed the people who assisted with that, I thought oh my, if it takes 6-8 people to de-program 8 children, how many and how long will it take to do this for 400+ kids??? And, I wonder what the success rate is for people taken out of cults and placed into society or back into society? [/*]There's a long road ahead for these children, and I hope they will eventually be happy and healthy.

Have you gotten any insight into how Carolyn herself wised up and escaped? She was already grown up when she left, so I'm praying there's hope for all those children.

[walton]

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9085726

Shurtleff called Reid's remark about polygamists holding political clout over Utah politicians "bullcrap."
"Give one example!" Shurtleff said. "They would not been in Texas had we not come out for them in Utah. . . . For crying out loud, we got Warren Jeffs, their prophet, serving two 5-life, consecutive sentences. How is that not doing anything? How is that bowing to political pressure?"

and.......

"To say Texas is doing everything right and that nothing has been done in Utah, again, that's uneducated," Shurtleff said, noting the FLDS bought property and has had some presence in Texas for four years.

Those that talk the talk.

Mr. Shurtleff has said that Utah doesn't have the resources to jail all the Polygamists. Mr. Shurtleff has said that they need proof that children are being abused. Mr. Shurtleff has said that they needed proof that there is welfare fraud going on.

Apparently the 1000 plus kids at Dr. Fischers place aren't enough proof. Apparently the millions of dollars being forked out for foodstamps and other welfare programs isn't enough.

Apparently Mr. Shurtleff wants other people to do the work for him.

Apparently Mr. Shurtleff, Orrin Hatch and the like would like to keep coming up with programs that help a victim but never discourages the abuser.

Now just taking an "uneducated guess" I am thinking that those groups of Polygamists that sit around and play sing along with John McCain, Bob Bennett and Orrin Hatch just might be inclined to vote for those that sit around. But of course this is just my uneducated opinion.

[Jan Powell]

http://www.statesman.com/news/content/gen/ap/Polygamist_Numbers.html

There were only 17 boys ages 14 to 17 living at the ranch and taken into custory. There were 53 girls in that age range. That fact is a sad fact to me.

It seems to me CPS did this backwards. Why not round up the men and 17 boys (if CPS thought they were part of the child abuse claims) and do something with them.

Why remove the 450 or so children and mothers for the sin of the fathers? They could have shut the place down and conducted their search from within the ranch instead of traumatizing the kids and mothers.

I know the answer; CPS doesn't have to be held responsible to the innocent mothers AND LE would have to be responsible. It was easier through CPS.

[Jan Powell]

"The age of consent in Texas is 17 {Texas Penal Code Section 21.11}. However , "...It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under this section that the actor...was not more than three years older than the victim and of the opposite sex...(and) did not use duress, force, or a threat against the victim at the time of the offence" and is not a registered sex offender {Section 21.11(*)}."

TX has the highest teen pregnancy rate in the US.

TX has the highest REPEAT teen pregnancies in the US.

Do we round them all up to be sure all were in compliance with the law and BTW, do we remove the children from these homes too?

IMO, the sect is dead wrong but the law is the law for everyone.


http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2007-10-24-repeat-teen-births_N.htm

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/texassouthwest/stories/DN-teenbirths_05tex.ART.State.Edition2.4238fb3.html

[Details]

Originally posted by Jan Powell
http://www.statesman.com/news/content/gen/ap/Polygamist_Numbers.html

There were only 17 boys ages 14 to 17 living at the ranch and taken into custory. There were 53 girls in that age range. That fact is a sad fact to me.

It seems to me CPS did this backwards. Why not round up the men and 17 boys (if CPS thought they were part of the child abuse claims) and do something with them.

Why remove the 450 or so children and mothers for the sin of the fathers? They could have shut the place down and conducted their search from within the ranch instead of traumatizing the kids and mothers.

I know the answer; CPS doesn't have to be held responsible to the innocent mothers AND LE would have to be responsible. It was easier through CPS. [/*]Under what law are they supposed to confiscate property without any due process? Do you really want LE arresting and locking up people because some of them committed a crime? And should CPS be blinded by gender stereotypes into forgetting that mothers can be abusers or abuse supporters as well?

Removing all of the children wasn't for anyone's sins - it was to protect the children. They had plenty of evidence to be concerned, and now the investigation will determine who is guilty of what, where the children will be best off, who else needs help.

[Details]

There's a difference between an underage girl making a stupid teenager mistake and becoming pregnant and a cult ordering an underage girl to go become an old man's concubine (I can't call them wives - they don't choose, they get reassigned to other men - that's not a wife). There's a difference between 58% of the underage girls being pregnant or mothers already, and the underage mother percentage in the real world. There's a difference between a 16 year old with 4 children and pregnant again, and the real world.

Texas's laws do apply to everyone. And a mandated reporter (which doctors are) is required to notify LE about underage pregnancies. http://www.parentalalert.com/

The law applies to everyone.

[Rainkiss]

I've started a thread for today, see you all over there!
:seeya: