Smiley Face Killers [murder connects dozens around country]

[singaporesling]

http://www.kstp.com/

This is a link to one of Minneapolis/St Paul's TV stations. It is the best crime report I have seen. We have had several male college students who have gone missing, some of whom have been found drowned. These cases are linked to other missing/drowned college students in other parts of the country and are being investigated as murders by groups of killers. Clues have been left such as "smiley faces" painted at the scene of the murder. There will be another segment tomorrow night but this one has a lot of new info.

[soyesterday]

wow
that's insane!
:(

[zenharmony19]

Double and triple wow! So many people had suspected some kind of connection between these drownings and even the FBI didn't find anything!

:eek:

[tbw10567]

Does anyone think that this is something that Josh Szostak's family should know about?

[threesnugbugs]

I have been following this connection for over ten years--I attended college in the upper Midwest (Eau Claire) and Minnesota

check out this website.

http://www.vanceholmes.com/court/trial_missing.html

[ruby]

Originally posted by threesnugbugs
I have been following this connection for over ten years--I attended college in the upper Midwest (Eau Claire) and Minnesota

check out this website.

http://www.vanceholmes.com/court/trial_missing.html [/*]

wow that is severely disturbing :eek:

[AmndaRcknwth]

Corridor 94

Lansing to LaCrosse

40 or so drowned young men

I've followed this on and off also. Too many coincidences to not be related, IMO.

Here's a different angle. They try to disprove the travelling killer angle.
http://crimsonshadows.net/content/view/54/49/

[AmndaRcknwth]

Crime Library article

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/unsolved/la_crosse_wisconsin/index.html#continue

[threesnugbugs]

Originally posted by ruby


wow that is severely disturbing :eek: [/*]

I hope you meant the website and not my choice of schools :)!

There was a male, who, after a night of drinking, "drowned" in the river that runs through the campus in Eau Claire when I attended. It never did add up and I took notice to all the other occurrences over time.

[Kip]

I believe there's foul play involved in at least some of these deaths. I noticed the pattern myself several years ago. Within about 6 months after a young man disappeared after leaving a bar in Chicago over Xmas break (and his body later found in Lake Michigan), two or three other Midwestern young men disappeared under similar circumstances.

One reason I believe there's foul play involved is that this just isn't happening with this sort of regularity in other parts of the country. LE is continually saying it's just a case of getting drunk and falling into water and drowning. I live in California. We have lots of water here - lakes, rivers, bays, the Pacific. I read about plenty of alcohol-related deaths of college kids, but none have involved falling into a body of water and drowning.

[NCMOMOF2]

http://www.rememberchrisjenkins.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=149

[annalyzer]

http://kstp.com/article/stories/s421846.shtml?v=1

http://www.coasttocoastam.com/shows/2008/04/25.html#recap

[Land Shark®]

That is just... crazy. I sincerely hope the detectives are wrong.

But it sure doesn't seem like they're wrong.

On a lighter note, there's a pretty cool story about bigfoot in the coast to coast link.

[annalyzer]

Originally posted by Leather&Lace


That is scary and if there is any truth to their belief's, I hope they can get a task team together to find the killer(s). There has been a lot of young men that have disappeared. It does not just stop in those states either. [/*]

I remember a couple of years ago people talking about how many young college men who had supposedly gotten drunk and then drowned. Thought it was strange then and now to read this. I wonder if Brian Schafer from Columbus could be one of their victims. He was last seen talking to two girls outside the bar. I'm hearing this could be some kind of a cult killings. If so those two girls could have lured him to a van.

[VC2]

This is fascinating!! Would be great if enough interest was shown for a forum because of the amount of cities, cases and just the documentation. with posters from so many cities we might be able to piece some unknowns together.

Those smiley faces cannot be coincedence, and there may be many more where it just wasn't noticed or no one found the "entry" point of a drowning victim.

if they are connected the creeps have to be stopped! Men just don't get the coverage most women do, and there is sort of an assumption they were drinking or horseplaying and somehow did it to themselves.

imo

[annalyzer]

Originally posted by VC2
This is fascinating!! Would be great if enough interest was shown for a forum because of the amount of cities, cases and just the documentation. with posters from so many cities we might be able to piece some unknowns together.

Those smiley faces cannot be coincedence, and there may be many more where it just wasn't noticed or no one found the "entry" point of a drowning victim.

if they are connected the creeps have to be stopped! Men just don't get the coverage most women do, and there is sort of an assumption they were drinking or horseplaying and somehow did it to themselves.

imo [/*]

I'm glad these two detectives stepped up to the plate and are investigating what LE has been calling accidental drownings of these young men for years.

[duncan]

Originally posted by Leather&Lace


That is scary and if there is any truth to their belief's, I hope they can get a task team together to find the killer(s). There has been a lot of young men that have disappeared. It does not just stop in those states either. [/*]


The first link says Chris Jenkins was driven around for hours and tortured, torture leaved marks on the body I would think, so if he was abused were the others also tortured???


There must be a reason for all of the murders if they are done by some group, I wonder what it is.

[duncan]

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/05/09/mailbox.pipebombs/


Your post brought this to my mind, a kid trying to create a smiley face using small bombs.

[MoonFlwr]

Amazing dedication shown by those two detectives! Hats off to them! Wow!

[crimeq]

Originally posted by Angelina
My goodness, this story is unbelievable. I am thankful for the two detectives that are putting the pieces together. I must say as the story played I felt a coldness over me. I can't fathom why anyone, much less a group of people would commit crimes like this REPEATLY. I hope they are caught and all of them, if found guilty, receive the death penalty. It is as if they are doing this for fun. [/*]

I cannot comprehend a group of people doing this, either, at various locations throughout the country. Now that the story has broken, I hope we hear more details.

I must admit I didn't understand all the young men going missing, drowning while being under the influence. I suspected there may be foul play that just hadn't been uncovered, but this is just--beyond me.

Good luck to the detectives and to all LE that is now taking another look at these deaths.

:(

[VC2]

I was shocked when he said he throught it was a group of killers. I could more likely see a couple that is travelling. Has the DA responded to this yet? I got the impression from the article that they were not going to do anything.

[crimeq]

Originally posted by VC2
I was shocked when he said he throught it was a group of killers. I could more likely see a couple that is travelling. Has the DA responded to this yet? I got the impression from the article that they were not going to do anything. [/*]

VC2, I see that as more likely, also--but would think detectives would see that as more likely and for some reason did not. They must have "something" to suspect it's a group of people in far-flung locations :shrug:

Whatever was/is going on, it's terribly tragic and evil.

[VC2]

The list of possible victims just in wisconsin and minnesota (from the link at the link)

Wisconsin

1) Charles Blatz 28 yrs

Missing-9/28/97 La Crosse, Wisc.

Found-10/0397 -- Mississippi River --BAC (0.20)

2) Anthony Skifton 19 yrs

Missing-10/10/97 La Crosse, Wisc.

Found-- 10/20/97-- Mississippi River --Bac (0.23)

3) Nathan Kapfer 20 yrs

Missing-2/22/98 La Crosse, Wisc.

Found---4/04/98 -- Mississippi River -Bac (0.22)

Third (3rd) child missing within five (5) months, (9/20/97 ---2/22/98). Not just the same state but the same town of La Crosse.

4) Jeffrey Geesey 21 yrs.

Missing-4/11/99 La Crosse, Wisc.

Found---5/24/99 - Mississippi River - Bac (0.42)

5) Craig Burrows 23 yrs.

Missing-9/29/02 Eau Claire, Wisc.

Found--10/06/02 - Half Moon Lake

6) Michael Noll 22 yrs.

Missing-11/06/02 Eau Claire, Wisc.

Found-----8/19/03 - Half Moon Lake

7) Nathan Herr 21 yrs.

Missing-01/10/03 Sheboygan, Wisc.

Found----3/15/03 - Lake Michigan

Third (3rd) child missing within less than three (3 1/2) months, (9/29/02--01/10/03)

8) Jared Dion 21 yrs.

Missing--4/10/04 La Crosse, Wisc.

Found----4/15/04 -- Mississippi River -Bac (0.40)

9) Joshua Snell 22 yrs. (in from Minnesota for a wedding)

Missing-6/12/05 Eau Claire, Wisc.

Found---6/15/05 - Chippewa River

10) Cullen Fortney 21 yrs.

Missing 1/08/06 Mississippi River La Crosse, Wisc.

Found---1/08/06 - ALIVE Bac (0.043-0.1643)

11) Kenji Ohnri 20 yrs.

Missing-01/28/06 Madison, Wisc.

Found----6/19/06 - Lake Mendota

12) Lucas Homan 21 yrs

Missing-9/30/06 La Crosse, Wisc.

Found--10/02/06 - Mississippi River

Minnesota

1) Ken Christiansen 19 yrs.

Missing-4/13/01 Duluth, Minn.

Found---4/16/01 - Chester Creek

2) Christopher Nordby 27 yrs.

Missing-11/07/01 Minneapolis, Minn.

Found-----2/11/02 - Mississippi River

3) Christopher Jenkins 21 yrs.

Missing-10/31/02 Minneapolis, Minn.

Found---02/27/03 - Mississippi River

4) Joshua Guimond 20 yrs.

Missing-11/09/02 Collegeville, Minn.

Found---( ) Never Found

5) Jeremy Stienkeoway 24 yrs.

Missing-01/20/03 Hinckley, Minn.

Found----4/10/03 - St. Croix River

6) Patrick Kycia 19 yrs.

Missing-9/23/05 Moorhead, Minn.

Found---9/28/05 - Red River

7) Scot Radel 21 yrs.

Missing-02/02/05 St. Cloud, Minn.

Found-----3/01/06

[annalyzer]

Most of these young men, if not all, were young, caucasion, good looking, intelligent, attending college, had been drinking heavily either at a party or a bar and were last seen leaving the bar and then later found in a body of water quite a distance away. Brian Schafer in Columbus was last seen on a video camera talking to two women outside the bar and then never seen again. I think it must be women who are luring these young men out to a van for whatever reason, probably sex, and then they are tortured, killed and put into a river. The detectives believe that it is several people doing this in different areas, not just a couple of serial killers, that they are in some kind of a cult.

[annalyzer]

Originally posted by MandyMutton


I think it's tied to a prison in either Minnesota or Wisconsin. There's over a three-year gap between the 4/99 and 9/02 murders. The happy face might be a prison gang sign. [/*]

What do you mean tied to a prison? These young men had nothing to do with prisons or any reason to know anyone that did. And there is more than a three year gap. They are thinking maybe as long as a decade this has been going on.

[VC2]

Originally posted by MandyMutton


I think it's tied to a prison in either Minnesota or Wisconsin. There's over a three-year gap between the 4/99 and 9/02 murders. The happy face might be a prison gang sign. [/*]

i just don't see prisoners in a gang using a smiley face as their sign.

Don't forget there is new york and other states as well, the article just listed minnesota and wisconsin.

omg..a truly evil fraternity or sorority spin off perhaps?

[annalyzer]

Originally posted by VC2


i just don't see prisoners in a gang using a smiley face as their sign.

Don't forget there is new york and other states as well, the article just listed minnesota and wisconsin.

omg..a truly evil fraternity or sorority spin off perhaps? [/*]

Chris Jenkins sister speaks, is going public tomorrow.

http://www.rememberchrisjenkins.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=149

[5boxersmom]

I think there is another on in Ohio besides Brian Shaffer. I will see if I can find it.

[5boxersmom]

Here it is.

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2002/01/01-16-02tdc/01-16-02dnews-02.asp

Keith Noble, a student at Ohio University, was reported missing in April 1998. There was a tremendous search throughout the town that involved the community and the university. According to a press release about his disappearance, Noble was last seen around 1:10 a.m. at a party near campus.

Chris Gerspacher is also on there. He was at Ohio State like Brian Shaffer.

[5boxersmom]

Despite a massive search, Athens Police said Keith could not be located. Then on Wednesday, May 6, 1998 the body of the 19-year-old was discovered in the Hocking River which runs through Ohio University's campus.


http://www.vanceholmes.com/court/trial_missing_students.html

[5boxersmom]

And one more.

Chris Olberding had been missing since Saturday, October 2, 2004. After he'd left a party in Green Township, the University of Cincinnati freshman was no where to be found. He was gone, and so was his car.

He was found in the Ohio River.

http://www.vanceholmes.com/court/trial_missing_2.html

[5boxersmom]

Originally posted by 5boxersmom
Here it is.

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2002/01/01-16-02tdc/01-16-02dnews-02.asp

Keith Noble, a student at Ohio University, was reported missing in April 1998. There was a tremendous search throughout the town that involved the community and the university. According to a press release about his disappearance, Noble was last seen around 1:10 a.m. at a party near campus.

Chris Gerspacher is also on there. He was at Ohio State like Brian Shaffer. [/*]

Chris Gerspacher was found murder, shot in the head. They caught the men who murdered him.
http://media.www.thelantern.com/media/storage/paper333/news/2002/09/26/Campus/Dates.Set.For.Osu.Murder.Trials-282975.shtml

[LisaM22]

remember this case

http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1109692/posts

"No trial for 'Smiley face' bomber"

[crimeq]

Originally posted by VC2
The list of possible victims just in wisconsin and minnesota (from the link at the link)

--snipped for space[/*]

Thanks for posting this, VC2. This certainly indicates to me that there's at least a locus here in WI and MN. Maybe it is the same people traveling--located there in the midwest but traveling occasionally to other places.

This list in just WI and MN is HUGE. Enormous.

I'm leaning towards women killers because of the smiley face, though that's not necessarily going to be limited to women--just kind of strange for a man. OTH the murders of these successful and attractive young men could be done by a man/men out of jealousy--an ultra "haves" vs. "have nots" scenario.

The victim profile is very pronounced throughout these murders, as well as disposition of the bodies.

[sheltiemom]

Here are links to a missing Georgia male college student. Gainesville-Duluth Ga area near Lake Lanier/Chattahoochee River. Wonder if he could be a victim of this group/cult/whoever?

http://*************.net/index.php?PHPSESSID=dfa1767471*321fe4671274693583c 10&topic=2321.80

http://www.onlineathens.com/stories/012008/news_20080120071.shtml

[sheltiemom]

http://coltonleviclark.wordpress.com/2008/02/23/more-college-students-missing-without-a-trace-nicholas-garza-michael-barbiere/

Website of missing college students - missing without a trace.

It will be interesting to see what comes out in the news media tomorrow. I will be watching for the news conference and 20/20.

I pray these murders will be solved and the perps caught/convicted.

[sheltiemom]

http://footprintsattheriversedge.blogspot.com/

Another VERY interesting link.

Footprints At The River's Edge
Is there truly a serial killer working the Great Lakes area, as some suspect? Or are all these cases unfortunate accidents?

[annalyzer]

More talk on the subject


http://helpfindthemissing.org/blog/

[annalyzer]

Originally posted by Kathy*Rae


BE CAREFUL!

That site has been hacked again. I just clicked on the link and hope I got out fast enough. lol [/*]

I see the forums are hacked but the link I posted takes you directly to a blog which is not affected.

[gxm17]

Originally posted by Angelina
My goodness, this story is unbelievable. I am thankful for the two detectives that are putting the pieces together. I must say as the story played I felt a coldness over me. I can't fathom why anyone, much less a group of people would commit crimes like this REPEATLY. I hope they are caught and all of them, if found guilty, receive the death penalty. It is as if they are doing this for fun. [/*]

Me too Angelina. It sent icy shivers through me. I hope they can get this club of killers off the streets before there are any more victims.

[MaryB]

Here's another case of a 21-year-old male found in the Hudson River recently.


http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=684276

The family doesn't believe it was accidental.

[gestalt]

I met a very astute woman on a web site I was posting on concerning a murder in Minnesota. She was asking the same questions many years ago, saying this just cannot be coincidence. She was right. Wow.

[gestalt]

Man, the defining moment when I realized they had the linkage was the street name in the graffiti.

[annalyzer]

Originally posted by gestalt
Man, the defining moment when I realized they had the linkage was the street name in the graffiti. [/*]

That smiley face is quite creepy isn't it? Sort of creepy like a Jason mask or something. :chicken:

[gestalt]

It reminded me of Gacy and that evil clown smile he had.

[dulcinea]

While I was attending Michigan State University, a young man was found in the Red Cedar River that runs through campus. He had come to MSU to party with some friends and had gotten separated from them. No one knew what happened to him until a few days later when they pulled him out of the river. I don't recall his name but it was around 2001-2002. They mentioned that all of these cases seem to occur around several major highways, one of them being 94. It's not too far from MSU. I wonder if this young guy is also a victim.

[annalyzer]

Originally posted by dulcinea
While I was attending Michigan State University, a young man was found in the Red Cedar River that runs through campus. He had come to MSU to party with some friends and had gotten separated from them. No one knew what happened to him until a few days later when they pulled him out of the river. I don't recall his name but it was around 2001-2002. They mentioned that all of these cases seem to occur around several major highways, one of them being 94. It's not too far from MSU. I wonder if this young guy is also a victim. [/*]

Did you look at the links at the possible victims to see if you could recognize his name if it's there?

[dulcinea]

I did a little research and found out his name was Eric Blair. He went missing October 20, 2001 and was found October 23, 2001.

I also discovered Ryan Getz went missing from MSU New Year's Eve 1997 and his body was found in the Red Cedar River on April 18, 1998. He was also known to have been drinking before his disappearance.

Franklin Gottschalk is a student who went missing from MSU February 2, 1997. He has never been found. I did not see any details about what he was doing when he was last known to be seen.

[dulcinea]

Bryan Welzein (IL) went missing New Year's Eve 1999. Ryan Getz went missing exactly two years previous. Is this a coincidence or is the date significant?

[gestalt]

Gacy also dumped some of the bodies of his victims in rivers.

I know that in the videos they say that there was abduction and torture. I supposed we will find out if they could determine if there was any sign of sexual abuse or if evidence to that would be obliterated by the water.

Another thing mentioned in the videotapes is the thought that females could be the perpetrators. I don't know about that.

[crimeq]

Originally posted by gestalt
I met a very astute woman on a web site I was posting on concerning a murder in Minnesota. She was asking the same questions many years ago, saying this just cannot be coincidence. She was right. Wow. [/*]

I just don't know how it wasn't put together at least as a theory, a long time ago. So many of us here are saying we recognized something strange about these young men drinking, going missing, showing up drowned in a body of water.

Even if they wrote it off to young guys drinking too much, with the concentrated location in WI, MN, Great Lakes area--why weren't we hearing about similar deaths in those numbers in other areas of the country? Young college men drinking is not something that happens only in WI, MN, Great Lakes. If these deaths were a "normal fallout" of that type of behavior, we'd see numbers like these all over the country.

It sounds like lots of parents weren't convinced these deaths were a consequence of drinking behavior, either. I'm glad there is focus on these cases now, and as terrified as I am to find out who/what's behind it, I want the perps captured and punished.

The smiley face aspect is just crazy freaky.

:(

[annalyzer]

Originally posted by gestalt
Gacy also dumped some of the bodies of his victims in rivers.

I know that in the videos they say that there was abduction and torture. I supposed we will find out if they could determine if there was any sign of sexual abuse or if evidence to that would be obliterated by the water.

Another thing mentioned in the videotapes is the thought that females could be the perpetrators. I don't know about that. [/*]

I believe it may be females who are luring these drunken young men out to a van or whatever. Probably men waiting in the van.

[gestalt]

crimeq -

The smiley face AND: the street name graffitied on the wall in one city and the actual street found in another city at another site. That is what clinched the link for me.

[texasgal]

My husband and I were watching the video on this case last nite .. pretty compelling ...

I thought of Mathew Wilson .. even though there doesn't appear to be any Texas victims at this time ...

[crimeq]

Originally posted by annalyzer


I believe it may be females who are luring these drunken young men out to a van or whatever. Probably men waiting in the van. [/*]

Annalyzer, I think so too. There were at least a few cases where the last video of the victim was seen near the bar, talking to a woman or women.

I just cannot fathom what kind of group this would be--literally cannot wrap my brain around this one. :(

[crimeq]

Originally posted by gestalt
crimeq -

The smiley face AND: the street name graffitied on the wall in one city and the actual street found in another city at another site. That is what clinched the link for me. [/*]

Gestalt, yes, that clinched it for me too. And it was such an unusual name. It's not like it would be common graffiti.

It's amazing to me that the detectives were able to backtrack to sites where the victims went in the water, and found the smiley faces at those sites. What kind of detective work must it take to determine where the body went in, when it may have happened months before and the body was recovered in a far different place! I'm so curious to learn more about how the detectives did this.

[annalyzer]

Originally posted by crimeq


Annalyzer, I think so too. There were at least a few cases where the last video of the victim was seen near the bar, talking to a woman or women.

I just cannot fathom what kind of group this would be--literally cannot wrap my brain around this one. :( [/*]

And notice they were almost all highly intoxicated, maybe even someone slipping a "mickey" in their drinks. Easier to lure and handle an intoxicated person.

[crimeq]

Originally posted by annalyzer


And notice they were almost all highly intoxicated, maybe even someone slipping a "mickey" in their drinks. Easier to lure and handle an intoxicated person. [/*]

Yes, and I read that for some of them, drinking to excess was way out of bounds behavior.

One man had been stopped by police when walking from the bar and apparently was administered an alcohol test, and given some kind of ticket ??? but not taken into custody. Then he disappeared. When his body was found, a much higher level of alcohol was in his blood. Nobody could explain how that happened and for some reason it was unlikely (timeframe?) that he had stopped elsewhere for more drinks.

I do think there is a car/van involved and these young men are being lured into the vehicle, where ??? is done to them. Alchohol is clearly very significant--whether the perps stalk young men who've been drinking because they're easier targets, or get them to continue drinking after they somehow pick them up.

The mother who said she knew what had happened to her son--that he was driven around town in a panel truck, in which he was tortured, then killed and his body taken to the river. How did she know that? Where did she get that information?

[annalyzer]

Originally posted by crimeq
snip~

The mother who said she knew what had happened to her son--that he was driven around town in a panel truck, in which he was tortured, then killed and his body taken to the river. How did she know that? Where did she get that information? [/*]

I don't know. :shrug:

[VC2]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,352960,00.html

40 drowning victims believed to be result of "smiley face gang"

apparently the FBI and local authorities dont believe it. Well it upsets the fbi's theories on serial killers, including those who work with a partner. There never has been a "group" of serial killers that i know of (caught at least), and just as they did not believe women were serial killers until they caught one i think they are just hidebound in their boxes.

No WAY are all the smiley faces where they were put in to the water coincedence. Not a chance.

IMO

[incognito]

http://kstp.com/article/stories/S426475.shtml?cat=1

A 5 EYEWITNESS NEWS investigation into the mysterious river deaths of young men around the country has now gone national.

Investigative reporter Kristi Piehl appeared on ABC NEWS’ ‘Good Morning America’ to discuss the case with detectives Kevin Gannon and Anthony Duarte.

This is great news for the many people who don't believe these young men have died on their own accord. Chris Jenkins was the first case to be ruled a homicide. Perhaps their will be others.

[kitty1182]

I am very interested in this..

[annalyzer]

I started a thread for this and it's at current crimes under thread "Smiley Face Killers".

[crimeq]

Originally posted by VC2
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,352960,00.html

40 drowning victims believed to be result of "smiley face gang"

apparently the FBI and local authorities dont believe it. Well it upsets the fbi's theories on serial killers, including those who work with a partner. There never has been a "group" of serial killers that i know of (caught at least), and just as they did not believe women were serial killers until they caught one i think they are just hidebound in their boxes.

No WAY are all the smiley faces where they were put in to the water coincedence. Not a chance.

IMO [/*]

It says something rather unsettling that FBI and LE can't move outside rigid parameters to seek resolution to a crime simply because they cannot comprehend it's a viable MO. I am AMAZED that these deaths, so many in MN and WI and Great Lakes area for over ten years, have not been connected by the dots by FBI or LE. Surely they cannot be that hidebound by who's supposed to be the perp, and who's not, that they cannot even look at possibilities. This is like the Flat Earth Society, sheesh. Yet here we have evidence that these crimes have been unlinked for over a decade; that even when FBI came in, they said no, cannot be; all LE wrote it off to drunken stumbles into water.

This one is a huge puzzle.

Question: how long would a body have to be in the water to remove traces of trauma to skin? Broken bones could be attributed to the corpse running into objects and getting enmeshed in the water--but how long before all traces of skin trauma like cuts, bruises, etc., would disappear? Of course there's normal decomposition but how quickly would water become a "magic eraser" for surface trauma? My guess is, pretty quickly. Even in winter with icy conditions which could preserve a body, I'd think the water would diminish or completely remove traces of surface trauma very quickly--even before the body completely froze, if in dead of winter.

Ideas?

[incognito]

Something we all have to remember is that law enforcement said at the beginning that Chris Jenkins wasn't murdered. The death certificate now says "homicide". It wasn't until these detectives along with his parents who wouldn't give up, that this change was made.

I am very familiar with the St Cloud area where Scot Radel was found. My daughter attends the same college he did. She is in her first year of forensic science. I also have family in LaCrosse, where many of the young men went missing from. Josh Guimond who has never been found lived near me.

From the beginning I have thought there is more to the story and others were involved. It is highly unlikely that a student (Scot Radel) who was supposedly too drunk to find his way to the next bar found his way down several streets, past hotels, restaurants and the courthouse without being noticed or caught on camera....staggered down a steep embankment to the river and drowned.

[threesnugbugs]

There is another thread on the amber alerts page discussing the same thing just in case you want to look there too. I know there have been several threads over the years on the possible links, as I have been following this since "I" was in college in Eau Claire, WI and it happened to someone I knew. Things never added up and I always took note of similar cases around my colleges. Perhaps someone can find the old threads. Also, vance holmes keeps some nice articles.

http://www.vanceholmes.com/court/trial_missing.html

[threesnugbugs]

bump

[spirit07]

Originally posted by dulcinea
I did a little research and found out his name was Eric Blair. He went missing October 20, 2001 and was found October 23, 2001.

I also discovered Ryan Getz went missing from MSU New Year's Eve 1997 and his body was found in the Red Cedar River on April 18, 1998. He was also known to have been drinking before his disappearance.

Franklin Gottschalk is a student who went missing from MSU February 2, 1997. He has never been found. I did not see any details about what he was doing when he was last known to be seen. [/*]


Is Eric on the list? If not, maybe you should contact the investigators.

[FoxySly]

Originally posted by gestalt
I met a very astute woman on a web site I was posting on concerning a murder in Minnesota. She was asking the same questions many years ago, saying this just cannot be coincidence. She was right. Wow. [/*]

There was also a thread here (CTV) with many stories and links and many of us here did not believe this was just a coincidence either.

Glad LE finally put together what many here did long ago.

Sly

[crimeq]

Originally posted by threesnugbugs
There is another thread on the amber alerts page discussing the same thing just in case you want to look there too. I know there have been several threads over the years on the possible links, as I have been following this since "I" was in college in Eau Claire, WI and it happened to someone I knew. Things never added up and I always took note of similar cases around my colleges. Perhaps someone can find the old threads. Also, vance holmes keeps some nice articles.

http://www.vanceholmes.com/court/trial_missing.html [/*]

From this site: Gannon and Duarte have also concluded that this is a "nationwide criminal enterprise" involving more than one murderer "Because there's such a wide range of states the killings are through" said Gannon. "Besides the fact that we have multiple victims on the same night."

Multiple victims on the same night? There must be much more to come about this

:(

[soyesterday]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,352960,00.html
this is a top news story and video right now on fox news....
:(

Detectives: 40 Drowning Victims May Have Been Murdered by 'Smiley Face Gang'

[clannad]

NY Post Headline Today:

"Killer Gang Drowns 40: Sleuths Say Nyer A Victim"

http://www.nypost.com/seven/04292008/news/regionalnews/killer_gang_drowns_40__sleuths_108571.htm


WCBS TV link

http://wcbstv.com/local/serial.drownings.murder.2.710715.html

[Carolyn2005]

One of the guys that was was killed is the brother of a girl that works in our company. I don't know her (she is in a different state) but she sent an e-mail the other day about how her parents are going to be on 20/20 because for years the police said that his death was a suicide. They ended up apologizing to the family. These are people that never gave up.

[annalyzer]

Originally posted by clannad
NY Post Headline Today:

"Killer Gang Drowns 40: Sleuths Say Nyer A Victim"

http://www.nypost.com/seven/04292008/news/regionalnews/killer_gang_drowns_40__sleuths_108571.htm


[/*]

That's what I was guessing earlier, that some kind of "mickey" was being slipped into their drinks.

" In both cases, he believes the victims were drugged with GHB, a date-rape drug, and then placed in the water. "

[gestalt]

Originally posted by crimeq



The mother who said she knew what had happened to her son--that he was driven around town in a panel truck, in which he was tortured, then killed and his body taken to the river. How did she know that? Where did she get that information? [/*]

They just haven't released that yet. I wonder if they were sexually assaulted.

[momof6]

with all the people who party in those states, it is curious that only white college males are drowning in the rivers. Also with all the colleges throughout the whole USA there are many more that are near water and you don't here about this happening anywhere but the surrounding areas of Minnesota and Wisconsin. If it was something that happened alot, it would be happening at all colleges.

That is why I have always been suspicious of these deaths.

[gestalt]

Okay, I don't have all of my news sources but I read that a message was left at one of the sites:

"The evil, happy, smiley man."

and that one of murderer's nickname was at a site.

I also read that the detectives now know who they are, but are saying so that they can get them.

[iluvmua]

When does the 20/20 segment about the college men vanishing air?

I'd like to watch it.

[clannad]

Originally posted by annalyzer


That's what I was guessing earlier, that some kind of "mickey" was being slipped into their drinks.

" In both cases, he believes the victims were drugged with GHB, a date-rape drug, and then placed in the water. " [/*]

I agree annalyzer. Did you read about the lucky "one that got away," who found himself in the river and had no idea how he got there? (it was on one of the links posted here) I immediately thought of Rohypnol, which is another "date rape" type drug that is also called the "mind eraser," which is often used as a mickey.
Thank God he woke up in the water and was able to swim to a cement piling and hold on. IMO, I have no doubt that he too was a target of these sick killers.

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=21794

[clannad]

Originally posted by iluvmua
When does the 20/20 segment about the college men vanishing air?

I'd like to watch it. [/*]

I'd like to watch it too. I tried googling 20/20 to see if I could find a listing on when the story would air. Couldn't find any information on the show, but did find another interesting link to the story.

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=4742858&page=1

[SavannahStar]

OMG what a horrifying and chilling situation!

When I read the recent news I was like OMG!!!!!!......I knew I read something about odd drownings of a bunch of young men in recent years......

This is a great one to follow.

[dulcinea]

Originally posted by spirit07



Is Eric on the list? If not, maybe you should contact the investigators. [/*]

Is there an actual list somewhere of cases suspected to be linked to this? I'd like to see it and see if the MSU guys are on it. If not, I'd like to send a message to the investigators. If anyone could give me a link to a list or contact info for the investigators, I'd appreciate it. TIA

[clannad]

The following is a link to the NYC Investigators Kevin Gannon and Anthony Duartes website.

http://nationwideinvestigations.us/

List of Minnesota and Wisconsin victims that detectives believe may be related.

http://kstp.com/article/stories/s421937.shtml?cat=63

[iluvmua]

Here is more info about one of the victims, Chris Jenkins:

http://www.kstp.com/article/stories/s424705.shtml?cat=1

( I believe someone already posted this, But here it is again)

[iluvmua]

I have a couple of questions:

1. How do they (Smiley Faced Gang) find all of these College kids in the first place?

2. Do they just pick their victims at random?

[crimeq]

Originally posted by annalyzer


That's what I was guessing earlier, that some kind of "mickey" was being slipped into their drinks.

" In both cases, he believes the victims were drugged with GHB, a date-rape drug, and then placed in the water. " [/*]

"Gannon and Duarte began working in high gear in 2003, when they learned four young men had vanished in Minnesota and Wisconsin over a 40-day period. Instead of looking at where the bodies were found, the detectives looked at the point of entry into the water, finding smiley faces nearby. Nine of the 22 faces were drawn with horns, Gannon said - like an "evil, happy, smiley man."

22 faces, 9 with horns. There is a fairly common "teen" passage, I've heard, of drawing devil faces with horns.

Are these smiley-faced devils? Sounds like it to me.

[crimeq]

Originally posted by iluvmua
I have a couple of questions:

1. How do they (Smiley Faced Gang) find all of these College kids in the first place?

2. Do they just pick their victims at random? [/*]

It's possible they just pick a bar late at night, wait and watch.

What puzzles me is that in several of these cases, the victims were WITH a group of friends, and disappeared without notice from the group. How does that happen? Snatched from the sidewalk? How does it happen that one minute you're with your friend, then you turn around and the friend is simply not there?

[crimeq]

I want to throw something out here that I had some experience with a number of years ago--watching an extended family member freak out by being around college boys.

I know this family member's history and he had a very tragic upbringing and a mother who really didn't mother.

I was with him, his wife, his sister, and some other extended family members when we were having a reunion. This small group of us went to an Irish pub--nice place, peanut shells on the floor kind of place--that was a hangout for college kids.

The extended family member I mentioned was a heavy drinker at the time (has since stopped and I hope it's helped him in lots of ways). There was one college kid in particular that this guy was watching--he was a good looking, tall, nice-featured young man. He was clearly very popular and was with his friends, just having a very good time. He had the "look" about him that he'd always been well-cared-for and loved; he had that self-confidence that comes from a loving family. He was having a wonderful time, and was oblivious to being watched by my extended family member.

As the family member drank more, he began to say he hated this guy, he was going to "take him down"--he was getting really violent, slamming his mug and fists on the table. At that point, his wife and sister said we had to go, had to get him out of the bar--that he got like this when he was drinking.

So we paid up and left and the extended family member kept talking about how he "hated" that guy and he was going to get him.

I must say I was really frightened, watching how this hatred took hold of this man. It was watching something evil.

Sooo, fast forward, this man has now stopped drinking but that kind of weirdness lives on in his psyche, I'm sure.

Just thought I'd throw that out there, in light of these young college boys being stalked and killed ....

[SpecialK]

Originally posted by soyesterday
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,352960,00.html
this is a top news story and video right now on fox news....
:(

Detectives: 40 Drowning Victims May Have Been Murdered by 'Smiley Face Gang' [/*]

There's a "Smiley Face Murders" thread over in Current Crimes. CW, you might want to merge the two...

[SpecialK]

Originally posted by crimeq


It's possible they just pick a bar late at night, wait and watch.

What puzzles me is that in several of these cases, the victims were WITH a group of friends, and disappeared without notice from the group. How does that happen? Snatched from the sidewalk? How does it happen that one minute you're with your friend, then you turn around and the friend is simply not there? [/*]

From what I've read, the young men BEGIN the evening in a group and at some point break away on their own to walk to their homes or cars and then they are abducted. :shrug:

[crimeq]

Originally posted by SpecialK


From what I've read, the young men BEGIN the evening in a group and at some point break away on their own to walk to their homes or cars and then they are abducted. :shrug: [/*]

There were at least a couple of cases where the victim was with his group of friends or a friend, and the friend turned around, turned back, and the victim was gone. That's what was puzzling to me--how could it happen that fast? I'm assuming this isn't seconds, but within a minute or two--maybe the guys were kind of milling about outside the bar, talking--but then the victim was gone :confused:

So much is puzzling about this case and I'm glad it's getting media attention now.

VERY interesting that the two detectives think they know who is doing this. So when do we find out?

Also it's very disturbing that if they think they know who it is, they are still saying it's a wide-spread group in different locales. That is very, very spooky.

[incognito]

The reason the detectives have gone public with some of what they know is they are out of money to investigate further. They would like law enforcement to investigate any new drownings differently. Perhaps looking for where the person has entered the water instead of assuming it was an accidental drowning.

Had some of these been looked at earlier perhaps smiley faces would have been found. It is easier to find when you know what and where to look.

According to the link about Chris Jenkins his sister mentioned they would be going national and to 20/20. I have not seen a date as to when that would be.

I am glad this is out in the national news as law enforcement here in Mn is still skeptical about it all.

[crimeq]

Originally posted by incognito
The reason the detectives have gone public with some of what they know is they are out of money to investigate further. They would like law enforcement to investigate any new drownings differently. Perhaps looking for where the person has entered the water instead of assuming it was an accidental drowning.

Had some of these been looked at earlier perhaps smiley faces would have been found. It is easier to find when you know what and where to look.

According to the link about Chris Jenkins his sister mentioned they would be going national and to 20/20. I have not seen a date as to when that would be.

I am glad this is out in the national news as law enforcement here in Mn is still skeptical about it all. [/*]

I was curious about how one would find a point of entry when months may have passed before the body was found. In my exploration online, I read about one group who did this--I think it may have been part of the Chris Jenkins investigation--where tennis balls were put in at various places in the river, and later a mannequin that was bouyed such that it would simulate a body in the water. Of course they are consulting info about the currents too. It was fascinating.

I wonder how the two detectives found the entry points--22 of them, apparently. The study I describe above cost some pretty big $$$ and I doubt they had that much money at their disposal.

[incognito]

I read that the detectives didn't take any money for their work. They mortgaged their home to help finance their investigation. I also read that the study to recreate the river for the Jenkins investigation was something like 10,000. I think the Jenkins paid for that.

My daughter is a first year student of forensics at St Cloud University. I know there is a professor there who has helped in this case also. Gilbertson is his name I think.

Scot Radel was a student at St Cloud when he went missing. His parents have never believed that his death was accidental. I think he has now been included in the 40 or so students. Perhaps what they have learned from this investigation can help them find Josh Guimond who has never been found. They drained the lake near the campus he went missing from but was not found there.

[Knick]

Does anyone know why the detectives think it is groups of different people doing this instead of a few of the same people traveling?

[incognito]

It was stated that because of the many States involved and because of more than one drowning on the same day. Jumping to a conclusion here but they also mentioned "nicknames" of people but not much was written about that. Some things are being withheld as far as evidence they have collected.

[Knick]

I don't know why...but I keep thinking the internet is involved somehow. This is totally based on nothing, but if it's some sort cult...perhaps they share their interests and experiences on the net with each other to keep in touch and "brag".
I'm also worried about copycats. This makes me so angry. I cant help but think that if these were women it would have been all over the news sooner, sad, but that is my opinion. People assume young men can't be a victim of crimes such as these. (Young men included!)

[clannad]

Originally posted by Knick
I don't know why...but I keep thinking the internet is involved somehow. This is totally based on nothing, but if it's some sort cult...perhaps they share their interests and experiences on the net with each other to keep in touch and "brag".
I'm also worried about copycats. This makes me so angry. I cant help but think that if these were women it would have been all over the news sooner, sad, but that is my opinion. People assume young men can't be a victim of crimes such as these. (Young men included!) [/*]

I came across a very interesting article called "Men Under Water"

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/unsolved/la_crosse_wisconsin/7.html

when the page loads, look to the right and click on Chapter 9 "A Truly Bizarre Fetish" Criminal Profiler, Pat Brown talks about an internet web site where there is such a group that shares their "drowning" or being drowned fetishes.

[annalyzer]

Originally posted by clannad


I came across a very interesting article called "Men Under Water"

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/unsolved/la_crosse_wisconsin/7.html

when the page loads, look to the right and click on Chapter 9 "A Truly Bizarre Fetish" Criminal Profiler, Pat Brown talks about an internet web site where there is such a group that shares their "drowning" or being drowned fetishes. [/*]

A lot of sickos in this world. I doubt though that these young men were in much of a condition to be able to struggle once they were put in the water. The water may only be a way of erasing any evidence.

[clannad]

Originally posted by annalyzer


A lot of sickos in this world. I doubt though that these young men were in much of a condition to be able to struggle once they were put in the water. The water may only be a way of erasing any evidence. [/*]

I too don't think the victims were in much of a condition to struggle once they were put into the water.
You're right, the erasure of evidence may be one of the reasons why they are being placed in the water, but for some reason, I don't think it may be the only reason.

[annalyzer]

Originally posted by clannad


I too don't think the victims were in much of a condition to struggle once they were put into the water.
You're right, the erasure of evidence may be one of the reasons why they are being placed in the water, but for some reason, I don't think it may be the only reason. [/*]

You're probably right.

[incognito]

http://www.startribune.com/local/18375754.html?page=1&c=y

Local law enforcement still don't support the smiley face theory. Does any see the irony that the first investigation that the detectives were involved in was in New York? The case that tied these together was Jenkins who was from Minnesota. He was wearing an American Indian costume.

Now the last missing student is from Mn, but went missing in New York and he was wearing a William Shakespeare costume.

[annalyzer]

Originally posted by incognito
http://www.startribune.com/local/18375754.html?page=1&c=y

Local law enforcement still don't support the smiley face theory. Does any see the irony that the first investigation that the detectives were involved in was in New York? The case that tied these together was Jenkins who was from Minnesota. He was wearing an American Indian costume.

Now the last missing student is from Mn, but went missing in New York and he was wearing a William Shakespeare costume. [/*]

Maybe I haven't had enough coffee yet but no, I don't see what you're getting at. Help.

[crimeq]

Originally posted by Knick
I don't know why...but I keep thinking the internet is involved somehow. This is totally based on nothing, but if it's some sort cult...perhaps they share their interests and experiences on the net with each other to keep in touch and "brag".
I'm also worried about copycats. This makes me so angry. I cant help but think that if these were women it would have been all over the news sooner, sad, but that is my opinion. People assume young men can't be a victim of crimes such as these. (Young men included!) [/*]

When I hear "cult" associated with this, I think of Satanists (not Wiccans, who do no harm ...). I simply cannot conceive of some kind of "murder" cult.

The two detectives said there had been multiple occurrences on the same night in different states. On WS, someone posted two that occurred the same night / different states for two separate nights: one year for New Years Eve, and one year for April 30.

Chris Jenkins was killed on Halloween.

These dates could be "festival" dates for cults--April 30 would be near spring solstice, I think.

I'm interested in learning all the "multiple" occurrences and checking the dates.

[incognito]

I'm probably reading way too much into it but right away I noticed when I read the article about the latest missing College Student.

The first drowning that these detectives investigated was Patrick McNeill in 1997. He was from NEW YORK. It wasn't until Chris Jenkins from MINNESOTA was investigated further that they could tie these 40 or so together.

In todays article about the search for the latest college student(Jacobson) he if from MINNESOTA but went missing in NEW YORK. He and Chris both were dressed in costume when they disappeared.

[crimeq]

Originally posted by clannad


I came across a very interesting article called "Men Under Water"

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/unsolved/la_crosse_wisconsin/7.html

when the page loads, look to the right and click on Chapter 9 "A Truly Bizarre Fetish" Criminal Profiler, Pat Brown talks about an internet web site where there is such a group that shares their "drowning" or being drowned fetishes. [/*]

Apparently Pat Brown took on an online identity of a 15 yo whose brother had drowned, and had considerable conversation with someone on that web site whom she believes is a very good candidate for being this killer.

[crimeq]

Originally posted by incognito
I'm probably reading way too much into it but right away I noticed when I read the article about the latest missing College Student.

The first drowning that these detectives investigated was Patrick McNeill in 1997. He was from NEW YORK. It wasn't until Chris Jenkins from MINNESOTA was investigated further that they could tie these 40 or so together.

In todays article about the search for the latest college student(Jacobson) he if from MINNESOTA but went missing in NEW YORK. He and Chris both were dressed in costume when they disappeared. [/*]

I haven't read that article yet (I'm supposed to be working, lol). Did Jacobson disappear on Halloween?

[gestalt]

I don't think so:

Article:

http://www.startribune.com/local/stpaul/18389719.html

One of the victims disappeared on New Years Day.

[incognito]

Originally posted by crimeq


I haven't read that article yet (I'm supposed to be working, lol). Did Jacobson disappear on Halloween? [/*]

No he disappeared between 3-4 am this past weekend, just a day or so after this smiley face gang was reported.

[gestalt]

The above article I just posted indicates that he was in costume attending a themed party.

[crimeq]

Originally posted by gestalt
The above article I just posted indicates that he was in costume attending a themed party. [/*]

Thanks -- I'm catching up on latest news while supposedly working.

[crimeq]

Originally posted by incognito


No he disappeared between 3-4 am this past weekend, just a day or so after this smiley face gang was reported. [/*]

I just had an awful thought, that if the same perp(s) are involved, this disappearance may have been a message in response to the recent media reports on the Smiley Killer(s) :-( That he's letting us know he's still out there, still active.

I hope not. It could lead to additional murders, I'm afraid.

[Mandymax]

Several years ago, I came across a thread on these boards that discussed all the drownings of young college men in a river in Wisconsin, and how they were all ruled accidental deaths but so many people thought it was too coincidental. Is this what this thread is talking about?

[jfeets726]

Originally posted by crimeq


I just had an awful thought, that if the same perp(s) are involved, this disappearance may have been a message in response to the recent media reports on the Smiley Killer(s) :-( That he's letting us know he's still out there, still active.

I hope not. It could lead to additional murders, I'm afraid. [/*]


That is the first thing that came into my mind. I have been lurking on the boards for a while and saw the post on here about the college men drowning. Talked about it with someone offline, saw it on Fox News the next day, and then I think the following day heard that a student is missing from a college that is 15 minutes away. That produces a very strange feeling.

With that said, I personally think that this may have been an accident. I do believe from reading all of the links that everyone has posted, someone may be harming other college students, but I am not too sure about this student. I did not know him, but I have been doing a little bit of research, as it is very scary to think that a serial killer could be in your local community.

The article that I posted in the Missing Person’s section mentions a pond on Farm Road on the College campus. I looked it up on the map and then switched it to satellite view. From what I can see, there is only one pond on the road. If it is the right one, the road kind of curves around the pond. I would think it would be relatively easy to fall in if you weren’t walking along the road, especially if the area is dark.

I haven’t been able to master hyper links yet. I tried, but I couldn’t get it to work.

Here is the map -

http://maps.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTExNmIycG51BF9TAzI3MTYxNDkEc2VjA2ZwLWJ1 dHRvbgRzbGsDbGluaw--#mvt=s&lat=42.426825&lon=-76.495878&zoom=17&q1=farm%20road%2C%20ithaca%20ny

Here is the article –

http://www.theithacajournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080430/NEWS01/80430002


Edited to clarify that my post is about William Jacobson, the Ithaca College Student who went missing this past weekend.

[crimeq]

Originally posted by Mandymax
Several years ago, I came across a thread on these boards that discussed all the drownings of young college men in a river in Wisconsin, and how they were all ruled accidental deaths but so many people thought it was too coincidental. Is this what this thread is talking about? [/*]

Yes, sounds like what you read about.

[annalyzer]

Interesting comments.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/comments?type=story&id=4738621

[incognito]

Originally posted by Mandymax
Several years ago, I came across a thread on these boards that discussed all the drownings of young college men in a river in Wisconsin, and how they were all ruled accidental deaths but so many people thought it was too coincidental. Is this what this thread is talking about? [/*]

Yes it is.

Also Vance Holmes has a website that has been discussing this for a few years. He was a poster here at one time. Not sure if he still does. For anyone who can afford to, please help support his site.

http://www.vanceholmes.com/court/trial_missing.html

[incognito]

ITHACA - Searchers have recovered a body believed to be that of a 19-year-old Ithaca College student missing since Sunday.

New York State Police divers found the body, tentatively identified as that of William "Willy" Jacobson, at about 9:30 a.m. today in small pond near Farm Road on the college campus, Ithaca Police said

http://www.theithacajournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200880430002

[dulcinea]

Originally posted by gestalt
I don't think so:

Article:

http://www.startribune.com/local/stpaul/18389719.html

One of the victims disappeared on New Years Day. [/*]

I'm not sure which particular victim you are referring to, but two young men who went missing from MSU and then were later found in the river on campus went missing New Year's Eve, I believe in 1997 an 1999.

[margaritaville]

Originally posted by incognito
ITHACA - Searchers have recovered a body believed to be that of a 19-year-old Ithaca College student missing since Sunday.

New York State Police divers found the body, tentatively identified as that of William "Willy" Jacobson, at about 9:30 a.m. today in small pond near Farm Road on the college campus, Ithaca Police said

http://www.theithacajournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200880430002 [/*]



I think this was the latest victim...He was from St.Paul MN was in New York going to school and found in the pond....It all fits the serial killers mo.

There is no way you are going to convince me that this many men felt the need to jump in the river, lake or pond for a late night dip, most of the time it has been in freezing temps.

Plus like with Chris Jenkins his body was found face up with his arms crossed across his chest.. His own hair clenched in one of his hands...(which I read makes sense if his head was being pushed under the water and he is trying to get it off)

How does one accidentally drown and then be found with his arms crossed ......Now I know his was reclassified as a homicide...
But come on..they really think it is even possible that 40+ young men have "accidentally" drowned....

No way!!! It doesn't make any sense!

imo

[Fenders]

http://www.wwnytv.net/index.php/2008/04/30/adam-falcons-parents-react-to-new-theory-in-sons-death/

Adam Falcon...Upstate New York..2004

[clannad]

Interesting article from the "Forensic Examiner" dated 9-22-06

"Multiple mysterious drownings: accidents or serial murder?"

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-150862797.html

[tbw10567]

This is in relation to Joshua Szostak who was found in the Hudson River in upstate New York. His father has found a smiley face on a tree near the Port of Albany. Now I am not wishing bad on this family but I hope the smiley face is for real. To have to think that some jerk actually put it there as a joke would make me sick.

http://capitalnews9.com/content/top_stories/115158/szostak-s-father-speaks-out/Default.aspx


Quote:

"Today at that site, Bill Szostak noticed a smiley face at that location for the very first time. The smiley face was found on a tree near the water, and it's a similar marking found at multiple crime scenes investigated by two retired New York City detectives who believe there are connections to a number of "accidental drowning" cases involving college students around the country."

[incognito]

The link didn't work. Can you copy and paste it from the address bar?

[crimeq]

Originally posted by tbw10567
This is in relation to Joshua Szostak who was found in the Hudson River in upstate New York. His father has found a smiley face on a tree near the Port of Albany. Now I am not wishing bad on this family but I hope the smiley face is for real. To have to think that some jerk actually put it there as a joke would make me sick.

http://capitalnews9.com/content/top_stories/115158/szostak-s-father-speaks-out/Default.aspx


Quote:

"Today at that site, Bill Szostak noticed a smiley face at that location for the very first time. The smiley face was found on a tree near the water, and it's a similar marking found at multiple crime scenes investigated by two retired New York City detectives who believe there are connections to a number of "accidental drowning" cases involving college students around the country." [/*]

I hope it's for real too, and not someone's idea of a joke. Unfortunately there are a lot of crazies running among us.

[tbw10567]

Wow - That was weird. I went back to the article to correct the link and I couldn't find it either. I tried again it was just updated at 9:05 (it now includes a reference to a medium). Maybe it was in the process of being updated and that's why we couldn't get it. Anyways, here it is.

http://capitalnews9.com/content/headlines/115158/szostak-s-father-speaks-out/Default.aspx

[clannad]

Originally posted by crimeq


I hope it's for real too, and not someone's idea of a joke. Unfortunately there are a lot of crazies running among us. [/*]

I hope so too. Thanks for the link tbw!

[crimeq]

Originally posted by Kathy*Rae
:read:

I think if I left a party so drunk that I somehow end up falling in a body of water.....

....the shock of the water (especially cold water) would revive me long enough to either get out, or hold on till someone heard me screaming my fool head off...

....and screaming I would be..

Me and at least SOME of the 40+ young men :shrug:

Wouldn't you think? [/*]

Cold water can take you over completely, very quickly. See this link:

http://www.ussartf.org/cold_water_survival.htm

ETA I'm a rescue-certified diver. When you're not in control of the water, it's in control of you, and it's not your friend. It's a force of nature and it has odds of winning on its side, sad to say.

[crimeq]

Originally posted by Kathy*Rae


WOW!
Thanks for the link.
I figured it would be an easy out if you fell in.....at any time. [/*]

Best not to fall in ;-) But imagine what any of these guys went through if they were aware of what was going on. Not to mention that for those who drowned in the Mississippi--that river moves as fast as the Indy 500 race. It's amazing to watch the river slide by; you really get a feeling for the awesome speed and power of it. I wouldn't want to be in it, and out of control.

Drowning is a terrible way to die. I want justice for these young men.

[Sunshinedreem]

I remember a case from a few years ago, Dan Clune from Idaho. His story is very similar to the rest of these, but I don't know if any smiley face or evidence was found.

http://www.finddanny.com/story.htm

[gestalt]

onederwomyn: agreed, men think they are safe alone, and that is also one of the reasons why they cannot really relate to a woman's fear.

There are so many young kids around the neighborhood riding bikes alone--it frightens me. Thank God, my son doesn't care that much about bikes and roaming around.

[gestalt]

It was stated clearly in some of the articles that it could very possibly be women who are doing this. I know that some of you think that women were the accessories to lure them to the van, but I wondered what you all think.

[gestalt]

For me, the main question is: How are the perpetrators able to travel in such a wide-ranging path?

I suppose they could be a Gary Hilton type.

[annalyzer]

Originally posted by gestalt
For me, the main question is: How are the perpetrators able to travel in such a wide-ranging path?

I suppose they could be a Gary Hilton type. [/*]

The detectives believe it is some kind of a cult that have members in various areas.

[annalyzer]

Originally posted by gestalt
It was stated clearly in some of the articles that it could very possibly be women who are doing this. I know that some of you think that women were the accessories to lure them to the van, but I wondered what you all think. [/*]

I definitely think women are the ones luring these young men to a van or whatever. Much easier for a woman to do than a man.

[crimeq]

Originally posted by Kathy*Rae


I can not begin to imagine the fear these guys felt!

Hopefully these crimes can be solved if these "Smiley Faces" turn out to be part of their cases.

Have I missed how many of them LE have located near victims? [/*]

22 faces, 9 with horns.

That's a whole lotta smiley faces at murder sites :-( . This is just so chilling.

"Gannon and Duarte began working in high gear in 2003, when they learned four young men had vanished in Minnesota and Wisconsin over a 40-day period. Instead of looking at where the bodies were found, the detectives looked at the point of entry into the water, finding smiley faces nearby. Nine of the 22 faces were drawn with horns, Gannon said - like an "evil, happy, smiley man."

[crimeq]

Originally posted by TexasPeppers


With all the snoops out there in this world, you would think someone could find something on the internet about cult.

I don't mean that the articles that were posted. I mean some type of a private message board, maybe, where they all communicate with each other.

I dunno, maybe I think that like terrorists, everyone utilizes the internet and it's easy access.... [/*]

I agree, they probably use the internet to communicate. Who doesn't? I hope some snoop does some good snooping and uncovers something good ;-)

[sandelpride]

I live close to La Crosse and Eau Claire. I am also not far from the twin cities. I have partied numberous times on 3rd street in La Crosse in my younger years. I just can not see how young men are going into the river. We would go up and down on third street all night long. It was not unusual for us to split up to go to different bars. Not once did any of us venture towards the river and I can tell you that some of them men with us were very drunk. The blood alcohol on the men found in the river in La Crosse was high enough that I would suspect they would have been falling asleep or passing out in the bars.

The Mississippi River is extremely cold come September and stays that way till mid June. The times that these individuals were disappearing the water would render them helpless almost immediately. They would not be able to put up much of a fight if they were drunk and then hit cold.

For years I have argued that to many men are dying in the river to not be caused by someone.

Winona, MN is also between La Crosse and Eau Claire and is the home of Winona State University and St Mary's University. Winona has just as many problems with college drinkers. Tt would be just as easy if not easier for college kids to end up in the Mississippi in this town but for some reason this is not happening in Winona. This, in itself, makes me think someone is targeting La Crosse men.

[crimeq]

Originally posted by sandelpride
I live close to La Crosse and Eau Claire. I am also not far from the twin cities. I have partied numberous times on 3rd street in La Crosse in my younger years. I just can not see how young men are going into the river. We would go up and down on third street all night long. It was not unusual for us to split up to go to different bars. Not once did any of us venture towards the river and I can tell you that some of them men with us were very drunk. The blood alcohol on the men found in the river in La Crosse was high enough that I would suspect they would have been falling asleep or passing out in the bars.

The Mississippi River is extremely cold come September and stays that way till mid June. The times that these individuals were disappearing the water would render them helpless almost immediately. They would not be able to put up much of a fight if they were drunk and then hit cold.

For years I have argued that to many men are dying in the river to not be caused by someone.

Winona, MN is also between La Crosse and Eau Claire and is the home of Winona State University and St Mary's University. Winona has just as many problems with college drinkers. Tt would be just as easy if not easier for college kids to end up in the Mississippi in this town but for some reason this is not happening in Winona. This, in itself, makes me think someone is targeting La Crosse men. [/*]

Bingo. You are right. The same set of circumstances should be applying to the college just across the river.

La Crosse does seem to be central to this case--perp from there? Someone mentioned the laxness of the police, but the perp wouldn't know that until after at least a couple of occurrences. I'm betting this all began with a perp who lived or went to school in the La Crosse area.

[Knick]

{came across a very interesting article called "Men Under Water"

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_...isconsin/7.html

when the page loads, look to the right and click on Chapter 9 "A Truly Bizarre Fetish" Criminal Profiler, Pat Brown talks about an internet web site where there is such a group that shares their "drowning" or being drowned fetishes.}


Seems I have read this before, a while back. Interesting. I'm thinking maybe there's some ringleader...obsessed with control...and gives out orders to his "cells" via internet. A modern day Charlie Manson type guy mixed with the zodiac killer (only not as complex)...dealing with water and using the internet to increase his "family". I keep thinking that there is something more than a guy or girl with a deadly fettish. Of course this is all just me thinking online (instead of out loud, haha)

The water has some meaning here...other than a really good way to wash away evidence. Maybe when more info is released we'll get a better idea. It seems like on the fox news report I saw what appeared to be writing beside one of the faces...did anyone else see that? Did they say what it was, or was I seeing things?

[Knick]

Help. Hey, I'm kinda new to posting so how do you do the

"Originally posted by" thing with a quote from someone else? I can't figure it out and I did it wrong.

[crimeq]

Originally posted by Knick
{came across a very interesting article called "Men Under Water"

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_...isconsin/7.html

when the page loads, look to the right and click on Chapter 9 "A Truly Bizarre Fetish" Criminal Profiler, Pat Brown talks about an internet web site where there is such a group that shares their "drowning" or being drowned fetishes.}


Seems I have read this before, a while back. Interesting. I'm thinking maybe there's some ringleader...obsessed with control...and gives out orders to his "cells" via internet. A modern day Charlie Manson type guy mixed with the zodiac killer (only not as complex)...dealing with water and using the internet to increase his "family". I keep thinking that there is something more than a guy or girl with a deadly fettish. Of course this is all just me thinking online (instead of out loud, haha)

The water has some meaning here...other than a really good way to wash away evidence. Maybe when more info is released we'll get a better idea. It seems like on the fox news report I saw what appeared to be writing beside one of the faces...did anyone else see that? Did they say what it was, or was I seeing things? [/*]

Your ideas are good. If it's a gang and not just one single drowning fetishist killer, I think it may be Satanists or something similiar. Nine of the 22 smiley faces that were found were faces with "horns" -- devils, IMO. It's very hard for me to conceive of a group of people with a common purpose to drown/kill young men, outside something like a satanist cult.

I agree with you that the water may have some meaning, though all by itself it seems to have lent itself to the perfect crime, over and over.

Apparently grafitti was found at several of the sites, and one was a real giveaway, as it was the name of a street (an unusual name, something like Sinsinewa though that may not be it, exactly) where another similar death had occurred, in a DIFFERENT state. That seems to be a direct pointer, a direct giveaway. And I think the detectives said they thought some of these gang members' nicknames were also scribbled into the grafitti.

I wish the detectives would come forward with more information.

[not.another]

This could be a step forward...

http://www.wisn.com/video/16129877/index.html

[not.another]

Originally posted by Knick
Help. Hey, I'm kinda new to posting so how do you do the

"Originally posted by" thing with a quote from someone else? I can't figure it out and I did it wrong. [/*]

To reply to a specific posters comment...there are two blue buttons on the bottom right of everyones post. One says edit, the other says quote. Click on the quote button of that posters comment. It is pretty simple.

[MoonFlwr]

Originally posted by not.another
This could be a step forward...

http://www.wisn.com/video/16129877/index.html [/*]

Thanks for the link! :)

[gestalt]

crimeq - Sinsinewa clinches it alright. Unless persons who don't believe the investigators think they themselves wrote it there for vain glory. I believe the investigators.

Gee, I'll just go throw myself into ice cold water, not!

[Idle47]

I'm not 100% sold on the wide-spread, group of serial killers but these "accidents" have been bugging me for a long time.

If they are all just cases of a student getting too drunk to find their way home & falling in the river, the law of averages says that a woman HAS to fall in the water at some point.

I realize that there has been a serious campaign over the years to make sure that young women don't travel alone but you can't tell me that there is NEVER a case of a young lady at a MN, WI, OH, NY college campus walking a block or two by herself.

And reading the stories of these young men & their families in a group (like here: http://www.vanceholmes.com/court/trial_missing.html) it's just the same story over & over & over.........

[MoonFlwr]

Aah Law of Averages.....always a good one to bring into a discussion, Idle47. Good point!

[sardoodledom]

Originally posted by Idle47
I'm not 100% sold on the wide-spread, group of serial killers but these "accidents" have been bugging me for a long time.

If they are all just cases of a student getting too drunk to find their way home & falling in the river, the law of averages says that a woman HAS to fall in the water at some point.

I realize that there has been a serious campaign over the years to make sure that young women don't travel alone but you can't tell me that there is NEVER a case of a young lady at a MN, WI, OH, NY college campus walking a block or two by herself.

And reading the stories of these young men & their families in a group (like here: http://www.vanceholmes.com/court/trial_missing.html) it's just the same story over & over & over......... [/*]

Not only a woman, but someone outside that late teens/early 20s age range, or non-white victims.

:rose:

[duncan]

Originally posted by sardoodledom


Not only a woman, but someone outside that late teens/early 20s age range, or non-white victims.

:rose: [/*]


exactly.

[annalyzer]

Originally posted by duncan



exactly. [/*]

Ditto.

[Oehll]

Originally posted by sardoodledom


Not only a woman, but someone outside that late teens/early 20s age range, or non-white victims.

:rose: [/*]

----------------------------------------
http://footprintsattheriversedge.blogspot.com/

This link wads posted earlier & it does have some who fall outside that age group in it.....very interesting.

This whole scenerio has really captured my attention!!

[annalyzer]

Originally posted by Oehll


----------------------------------------
http://footprintsattheriversedge.blogspot.com/

This link wads posted earlier & it does have some who fall outside that age group in it.....very interesting.

This whole scenerio has really captured my attention!! [/*]

Some men look younger than their years. :shrug:

[Oehll]

Originally posted by annalyzer


Some men look younger than their years. :shrug: [/*]
-------------------------------

Very true!

I also read that Duarte & Gannon had started with a list of around 79 young men........were able to get through the frst 30 or so (I think) easily, & then the others....are now out of $$ & are hoping the nationwide attention will get them some help!! I HOPE SO TOO!!

This whole thing is just too bizarre!!

I really feel for all the families involved & pray they will all be able to find some sort of peace.......and justice.

[butterfly28]

Originally posted by crimeq


It's possible they just pick a bar late at night, wait and watch.

What puzzles me is that in several of these cases, the victims were WITH a group of friends, and disappeared without notice from the group. How does that happen? Snatched from the sidewalk? How does it happen that one minute you're with your friend, then you turn around and the friend is simply not there? [/*]

I've had friends (myslef included) simply decide to leave and go home without telling anyone in our group. It's definitely not a smart idea but I do see it happen. :no:

[butterfly28]

Originally posted by Kathy*Rae
:read:

I think if I left a party so drunk that I somehow end up falling in a body of water.....

....the shock of the water (especially cold water) would revive me long enough to either get out, or hold on till someone heard me screaming my fool head off...

....and screaming I would be..

Me and at least SOME of the 40+ young men :shrug:

Wouldn't you think? [/*]

I would think so but it's hard to say....
Regardless there are still so many of these lately and I wonder if it is because we are hearing about them more often or because there are more drownings then there used to be? I think the possibility of these being linked is interesting and I am glad these detectives are taking a look.

[annalyzer]

Originally posted by trigger
On coast to coast am radio (wabc) with host Ian Punnety had a excellant talk show on last nite at 1am, a Smiley Face Killers Update. In the first hour, investigative reporter Kristi Piehl provided an update on the Smiley Face Killers. Piehl said the FBI met with detectives Kevin Gannon and Anthony Duarte for about an hour several months ago to go over some of their evidence. Since then, the FBI has had no further contact with them. Wisconsin Congressman F. James Sensenbrenner has written a letter urging the FBI to set up another meeting with the detectives and look further into this case, Piehl noted. Those interested in contacting Gannon and Duarte with information about the Smiley Face Killers should visit their website, nationwideinvestigations.us.
Thankful to these people for helping with these cases. Piehl states that these detectives have found more links to these cases but will not release what they have found at some of the crime scenes. But they will release some things they had discovered relating to these murders., reporter Piehl states could come as soon as this week. [/*]

I used to listen often and am sorry I missed the show last night. My brother heard a coast to coast show about this case a night or two before I started this thread and that is how I heard about it. Link on the first post on first page.

[crimeq]

Originally posted by Kathy*Rae



After reading an article on cold water survival posted here by one of our posters (so sorry...but I forgot who )
I have to wonder if they could have saved themselves when they hit the water, even if "only" drunk and not part of a planned murder ....?

The link again if you missed it..

http://www.ussartf.org/cold_water_survival.htm [/*]

Hi Kathy, I posted that link. No, the victims would not have survived in the icy water for long, if at all. Another poster here from the MN area who is familiar with the Mississippi River also posted that there wouldn't be much chance of survival in the water, that time of year.

I can't bear to think the victims were forced into the water to drown, perhaps immobilized by a date rape drug, and knew what was happening and were powerless to do anything about it.

[sandelpride]

Survival in the waters of the Mississippi during winter months is very rare. My husband is an avid snowmobiler and ice fisherman. He fell through on thin ice once with his snowmobile. He was fortunate that it was only his legs that got wet. Even with his legs wet he was very much in danger of going into shock if he hadn't been picked up and gotten to a dry and warm place.

I worked in a store where we sold bait. This store was located on the Mississippi right next to a lock and dam. We could see the ice fishermen all winter. I once had a man that I knew fall through the ice and he was lucky enough that he didn't get his head under and was wearing multiple layers of clothing. He pulled himself back on to the ice. He pulled himself a couple of feet to safe ice but couldn't make it any further. Another fisherman brought him into the store I was working at and I was able to call the ambulance and get him warmed up with the help of 911. He was already going into shock and the whole accident only took about 2 minutes. He survived but had frost bit and still has some numbness in his extremities. He was one of the lucky once. Most don't survive.

The Mississippi is not something to mess with from late Sept through May. This is preached to all our are children growing up. My home is about two blocks from the Mississippi River. My children are well aware of the dangers of cold water and also of water currents in summer. I don't let my husband take our children ice fishing unless it is in the back waters where the ice is the strongest.

Most people that grow up around this area are aware of the dangers of winter water ways. I can not believe that all of these young men would venture to the water especially being as drunk as they were. In the La Crosse deaths I just don't see why they would head in the direction of the water when the residential areas would not be in that direction.

[Knick]

Originally posted by not.another


To reply to a specific posters comment...there are two blue buttons on the bottom right of everyones post. One says edit, the other says quote. Click on the quote button of that posters comment. It is pretty simple. [/*]

Thanks!

[annalyzer]

Report on smiley face killers coming up next on Inside Edition on tv.

[gestalt]

If you do a search on "smiley face", you will see that someone has come up with a possible theory on where the suspect could work and sent it to the investigators.

[threesnugbugs]

Originally posted by gestalt
If you do a search on "smiley face", you will see that someone has come up with a possible theory on where the suspect could work and sent it to the investigators. [/*]

Where did you do your search? ie, google, insession boards? I am not finding anything right now.

[gestalt]

I decided to not post it because it is not from a news article. I really don't want to get in trouble posting someone else's information without their permission.

[spirit07]

Originally posted by gestalt
I decided to not post it because it is not from a news article. I really don't want to get in trouble posting someone else's information without their permission. [/*]


Are you talking about the guy who they said moved to Missouri (St. Louis, I think?).

[annalyzer]

Originally posted by gestalt
I decided to not post it because it is not from a news article. I really don't want to get in trouble posting someone else's information without their permission. [/*]

I think if it's a blog or something like that then it's on the net for people to read. You're allowed to post links.

[incognito]

Tommy Booth may be another link

http://kstp.com/article/stories/S434838.shtml?cat=1

Police in Pennsylvania have found new evidence in a closed drowning case, discovered after 5 EYEWITNESS NEWS’ investigation into the drowning deaths of over 40 other young men

[alter ego]

Originally posted by annalyzer
Report on smiley face killers coming up next on Inside Edition on tv. [/*]
Did they report anything new?

[gestalt]

From reading across websites, the buzz is that more information will be coming out from the investigators by the weekend.

[annalyzer]

Originally posted by alter ego

Did they report anything new? [/*]

They were talking about the latest one that drowned, can't remember his name, that drowned in the lake on campus. Showed a bunch of college kids holding a candle vigil around the lake. Kids were saying they find it very suspicious and don't think it was an accident. Said they are all going to travel in groups now for safety.

They showed the lake and you'd literally have to walk down a sloped embankment to get into the lake.

[annalyzer]

Originally posted by CAT TOY
Hey anna great to see you! Over here, are you getting about the same local stuff I am? They are showing the NY Det beat cops who are saying No No there is no serial killer; its a mistake blan blah. I think the idea that there is a gang of ppl killing ppl nationwide is a little hard for me to swallow too. Maybe a serial killer who travels from state to state and drowns all his victims, that I can believe.
What's the latest news?

Cat [/*]

Hi girlfriend!! I think it would be too hard for a lone person to be doing this. They are thinking this is some kind of (satanic?) cult spread over a large area. They are basing this reasoning on signs left at locations the victims went into the water, the dates that this is being done, etc. And I think women are being used to lure these young men away from their friends and into a van or something. Gotta go, see ya! :seeya:

[BorderCollieMom]

http://kstp.com/article/stories/S434838.shtml?cat=1

This story has been updated May 6th 2008.

Very eerie cases, indeed.

[crimeq]

Originally posted by incognito
Tommy Booth may be another link

http://kstp.com/article/stories/S434838.shtml?cat=1

Police in Pennsylvania have found new evidence in a closed drowning case, discovered after 5 EYEWITNESS NEWS’ investigation into the drowning deaths of over 40 other young men [/*]

Another smiley face in the grafitti.

WOW. That's about all I can say.

I really want to see this solved and find out WHAT NUTS are out there committing these murders.

[annalyzer]

Originally posted by crimeq


Another smiley face in the grafitti.

WOW. That's about all I can say.

I really want to see this solved and find out WHAT NUTS are out there committing these murders. [/*]

Wow is right. :eek:

[Oehll]

Originally posted by crimeq


Another smiley face in the grafitti.

WOW. That's about all I can say.

I really want to see this solved and find out WHAT NUTS are out there committing these murders. [/*]
--------------------------------------------

I think we all feel the same way about this!! It needs to be stopped....SOON!!

[annalyzer]

Originally posted by gestalt
I decided to not post it because it is not from a news article. I really don't want to get in trouble posting someone else's information without their permission. [/*]

Is this it? The Trane theory? Interesting!

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message542174/pg1

[butterfly28]

Originally posted by BorderCollieMom
http://kstp.com/article/stories/S434838.shtml?cat=1

This story has been updated May 6th 2008.

Very eerie cases, indeed. [/*]

Tommy Booth was seen entering the bar on the surveillance camera but not seen leaving the bar.... just like Brian Shaffer. How is this happening?

[butterfly28]

Originally posted by crimeq


I really want to see this solved and find out WHAT NUTS are out there committing these murders. [/*]

Exactly!! Who would do something like this?! At first this seemed a bit too far fetched for me but it seems like it could be a reality.

The good news is that with the detectives going public with the theory it will increase the chances of these people getting caught. The bad news is that there will be copycats that make it more difficult.

[crimeq]

Originally posted by annalyzer


Is this it? The Trane theory? Interesting!

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message542174/pg1 [/*]

Wow. Highly recommended reading, for those who haven't yet gone there.

[BorderCollieMom]

Originally posted by crimeq


Wow. Highly recommended reading, for those who haven't yet gone there. [/*]

Agree...great read on that site.

[butterfly28]

Possible 'Smiley Face Gang' Link Emerges in Case of Missing Middlebury College Freshman

Here is a new article posted today...


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,354386,00.html

[baywench]

Originally posted by annalyzer


Wow is right. :eek: [/*]

I am very interested in this case. I hope it becomes a forum, when I saw you were over here annalyzer I was relieved and figured it must be a viable thread. Good to see you. IMO

[BorderCollieMom]

Is there any link out there in web world that has photos of all of these smileys on 1 site or anything ? Anyone seen anything like that ?

[annalyzer]

Originally posted by BorderCollieMom
Is there any link out there in web world that has photos of all of these smileys on 1 site or anything ? Anyone seen anything like that ? [/*]

This link has the one I'm most familiar with but I did see somewhere else smiley's that were different in appearance but were said to be very similiar in certain ways.
http://kstp.com/article/stories/s421846.shtml?v=1

[spirit07]

A few of the smilies...

http://a11news.com/images/smiley-face-murders.JPG

[spirit07]

Originally posted by spirit07
A few of the smilies...

http://a11news.com/images/smiley-face-murders.JPG [/*]

sorry that link doesn't work right...not much anyway, but you can go here and scroll down

http://a11news.com/57/smiley-face-murders/

[BorderCollieMom]

thanks for the links. There are soooo many names and it seems like everytime I go to read "comments" on various sites, theres even more talking "a friend" that ended up dead in water...

I have to wonder if possibly hundreds of victims are out there of supposed suicides & accidents.

[Mandymax]

I remember reading years ago that in one of these cases, police found the young man's shirt and/or hat draped on a post near the water's edge, leading them to believe that he had deliberately put it/them there before walking into the water, and therefore it was either an accidental drowning or a suicide. Does anyone remember what I'm talking about? I can't remember the kid's name.

[crimeq]

Originally posted by Mandymax
I remember reading years ago that in one of these cases, police found the young man's shirt and/or hat draped on a post near the water's edge, leading them to believe that he had deliberately put it/them there before walking into the water, and therefore it was either an accidental drowning or a suicide. Does anyone remember what I'm talking about? I can't remember the kid's name. [/*]

I don't remember his name either, but it was a baseball cap placed on top of a pole by the water.

[crimeq]

Originally posted by butterfly28


Tommy Booth was seen entering the bar on the surveillance camera but not seen leaving the bar.... just like Brian Shaffer. How is this happening? [/*]

The grafitti was found underneath that bar, IIRC. Who is gutsy enough to stay there after putting the body (living or dead) into the water, and make meaningful grafitti? This location isn't exactly like the other locations, which were more remote and on the river. :confused:

[BorderCollieMom]

Tommy Booth was found BEHIND the bar and the smiley face was found "on the wall" according to ....
http://kstp.com/article/stories/S434838.shtml?cat=1

Surveillance tape shows Tommy Booth going into a bar in January, but never coming out. His body was found in a shallow creek behind the bar two weeks later.


and...

"The morning that I saw this story run on the news, I came into work and I asked my detectives to go down and take a look. We noticed graffiti and a smiley face on the wall," explained Willoughby.


I would think Tommy would of had to of left the bar out a difference exit...maybe the back door ? But then what happened ?

[Knick]

About Chris Jenkins...does anyone know how long he was in the water? was it the entire 4 months he was missing? If he was in the water for a significant time how did his hands stay crossed over his chest with water swishing swiftly all around him? They must have been tied or otherwise bound...I wonder?

[annalyzer]

Originally posted by Knick
About Chris Jenkins...does anyone know how long he was in the water? was it the entire 4 months he was missing? If he was in the water for a significant time how did his hands stay crossed over his chest with water swishing swiftly all around him? They must have been tied or otherwise bound...I wonder? [/*]

I don't know how long he was in the water but his clog shoes which only had a small lip at the heel were still on his feet.

[Knick]

if Chris was in the water for 4 months would he still be floating? (I saw some pics of his body on a news site and he was floating) I thought it is the decomposing body that produces gas that floats the body and that only lasts a short period of time. Maybe it was water temp that slowed the process. Any ideas or info?

[crimeq]

The main thread is closed for the weekend, so here's a spot to continue our discussion.

I heard early in the week that the detectives might be releasing more information by the weekend. Haven't heard anything yet--but sure hope to soon.

[kitty1182]

Originally posted by crimeq
The main thread is closed for the weekend, so here's a spot to continue our discussion.

I heard early in the week that the detectives might be releasing more information by the weekend. Haven't heard anything yet--but sure hope to soon. [/*]

I hope so too!!!

[BorderCollieMom]

I hope to hear something too.

[CANDYKISSES]

Is there a map outline of where they suspect these murders have taken place and how they are connected by chance?

[BorderCollieMom]

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES
Is there a map outline of where they suspect these murders have taken place and how they are connected by chance? [/*]

Ive seen them by clicking on different links on the regualr board but I have no idea where to point ya.

I am pretty sure there was on Fox News.

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by BorderCollieMom


Ive seen them by clicking on different links on the regualr board but I have no idea where to point ya.

I am pretty sure there was on Fox News. [/*]

Thanks BCM, I find myself wondering if possibly Nicholas Francesco(sp?) could have been confused for someone in the age group? HE has such a youthful look to him and I know the water has not been searched that I am aware of, so maybe I will check that out.

jmo

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by annalyzer


He doesn't fit the profile. He wasn't going to college (was he?) and he was last seen leaving work (right?) not a bar or party. [/*]

I'd say that's all pretty subject to change anytime from my POV. He was married and had a friend finder account that was active, so I don't know what he might have told people he met on there as he had been a member for some time from what I understand.

I was just wondering if the area was a fit first or if it's way out of the realm of possibility. JMO:shrug:

[kakax]

In 1990, I was a college student in Atlanta. My cousin and I had come back from Christmas break early and went out with some guys from Georgia Tech. We went to a bar where we stayed at least until 2am. One of the guys we were hanging out with could not be found when we left the bar. We didn't bring him, so we weren't all too worried about it. Well he was found a few days later in Piedmont Park Lake...his shoes and clothes folded up right on the edge of the lake. No one ever understood it....I don't know all of the details about these alleged murders....seems like they have been in the Northeast but it struck me as so similar. He was a cute normal college guy who we had a hard time believing went for a swim in January...drunk or not. It just never made sense. I haven't seen any information anywhere to report this....I did post it on Greta's tip box...but I am sure it doesn't have anything to do with it. Just an odd way for all of these young guys to die.

[annalyzer]

I was told the latest People magazine has an article about the Smiley Face Killers.

[Oehll]

Originally posted by annalyzer
I was told the latest People magazine has an article about the Smiley Face Killers. [/*]
-----------------------------

Thanks for that info!

Have been reading everything I can find on this case.....it has really caught my attention for some reason.

Looking forward to new info on all these <cough> "accidents"!!!!

[annalyzer]

Originally posted by Oehll

-----------------------------

Thanks for that info!

Have been reading everything I can find on this case.....it has really caught my attention for some reason.

Looking forward to new info on all these <cough> "accidents"!!!! [/*]

You're welcome. :seeya:

[crimeq]

I'm hopelessly unaware of what is used today to create grafitti. Spray paint that I'm familiar with sprays a wide mist and wouldn't be useful to write with. ??? What products are used to create grafitti? This question comes from my wondering how long it took to create the grafitti found in all these locations--when the perps had to be wanting to get out of there soon (I would think).

[BorderCollieMom]

Originally posted by crimeq
I'm hopelessly unaware of what is used today to create grafitti. Spray paint that I'm familiar with sprays a wide mist and wouldn't be useful to write with. ??? What products are used to create grafitti? This question comes from my wondering how long it took to create the grafitti found in all these locations--when the perps had to be wanting to get out of there soon (I would think). [/*]

The only product I know of thats used for Graffiti, is spray paint. plain old spray paint.

Now, youre right, when "we" paint stuff...we hold the can way back from the item so it goes on right without dripping and running, etc...

But the graffiti by gangs & such is done by holding the can very close to the wall, bridge, etc....and its usually pretty sloppy.

Graffiti "artists" spray all kinds of ways to get their murals to look so good.

[BorderCollieMom]

Originally posted by jacknpeytonsmom
Interactive Map of Smiley Face Killings (http://kstp.com/article/stories/s414698.shtml?cat=63)

Here...try this... [/*]

AWESOME !!! you rock !!!! thanks !!!

[Oehll]

The terrible thing about that map is that it shows JUST A FEW of the suspected victims! There are MANY MORE!!

[crimeq]

Originally posted by BorderCollieMom


The only product I know of thats used for Graffiti, is spray paint. plain old spray paint.

Now, youre right, when "we" paint stuff...we hold the can way back from the item so it goes on right without dripping and running, etc...

But the graffiti by gangs & such is done by holding the can very close to the wall, bridge, etc....and its usually pretty sloppy.

Graffiti "artists" spray all kinds of ways to get their murals to look so good. [/*]

Thanks :seeya: I'm awfully naive about painting graffiti, I guess. But then it doesn't appeal to me as a hobby :)

[crimeq]

Originally posted by RachelRose
There are actually specific cans of paint for graffiti - with specific fine nozzles. My middle son does "Urban Art" - legal graffiti - on legal walls in our city and really, it's some great art. The paint cans are expensive and you can buy interchangeable nozzles for different effects. When I saw the different graffiti Smiley Faces, it seems very clear to me that these are different people - graffiti is like handwriting. Unique styles. Interestingly, my husband looked at it and said it could all be done by the same person trying to appear to be different people. [/*]

Wow, that's quite an education you provided! Thanks! Interesting that your husband thinks it could be one person trying to look like different people. If that's so, I'd expect that one person to be an experienced graffiti maker, to be able to alter it.

BTW I have seen some fabulous legal urban art graffiti that is quite remarkable, stupendous, even.

[alter ego]

Originally posted by annalyzer
I was told the latest People magazine has an article about the Smiley Face Killers. [/*]Did you happen to read it?

[crimeq]

Originally posted by herlock h.
Sorry, I have yet to see any graffiti in my town that I would consider anything but an eyesore.

I took some handwriting analysis classes a few years back and the woman who taught this class (nationally known for her work) had done studies on graffiti. She had been called in by a number of LE agencies to analyze various "displays" around the country. I would bet that LE have handwriting experts working on those faces as we read.

:)

Herlock [/*]

Interesting re: the graffiti handwriting expert. I wonder if LE has anyone looking at it, since they haven't been too eager to look into these deaths as murders--until a few quite recently. One hopes they have someone analyzing the graffiti.

RE: graffiti/urban art. The urban art I'm speaking of, and doubtless that Rachel Rose is speaking of, is art, not graffiti, usually done on warehouse building walls, or long stretches of walls in urban areas. I've seen remarkable art that often brightens up a blighted appearance in the city. Then of course there's the usual graffiti, which is just offensive.

[butterfly28]

Originally posted by BorderCollieMom
thanks for the links. There are soooo many names and it seems like everytime I go to read "comments" on various sites, theres even more talking "a friend" that ended up dead in water...

I have to wonder if possibly hundreds of victims are out there of supposed suicides & accidents. [/*]

I am thinking the same thing. This does not look good.

[crimeq]

This case sure has gotten quiet, after a brief flurry when the detectives announced to the media. I read on WS that one of the detectives had been hospitalized, and that the detectives were no longer giving interviews. There wasn't anything there to back that up so I don't know if it's true. Anybody know?

[annalyzer]

Originally posted by crimeq
This case sure has gotten quiet, after a brief flurry when the detectives announced to the media. I read on WS that one of the detectives had been hospitalized, and that the detectives were no longer giving interviews. There wasn't anything there to back that up so I don't know if it's true. Anybody know? [/*]

I heard there was a story in the latest People magazine, the most beautiful people issue I believe. Haven't had a chance to see if I could find one.

[Oehll]

Originally posted by crimeq
This case sure has gotten quiet, after a brief flurry when the detectives announced to the media. I read on WS that one of the detectives had been hospitalized, and that the detectives were no longer giving interviews. There wasn't anything there to back that up so I don't know if it's true. Anybody know? [/*]
---------------------------------

You are right! I keep looking for new information on this, but there hasn't been any that I can find except for a new posting or 2 on the site linking the murders to the Trane Co......the link is listed on this thread.

Since the detectives stated they started out with approx. 80 cases (AND that was quite some time ago!), I too believe this is MUCH LARGER than we know! There are a few that are likely linked to this on the In Session Message Board re. missing persons.

Hopefully both detectives are OK----what is 'WS'? TIA

[butterfly28]

Originally posted by Oehll

---------------------------------

You are right! I keep looking for new information on this, but there hasn't been any that I can find except for a new posting or 2 on the site linking the murders to the Trane Co......the link is listed on this thread.

Since the detectives stated they started out with approx. 80 cases (AND that was quite some time ago!), I too believe this is MUCH LARGER than we know! There are a few that are likely linked to this on the In Session Message Board re. missing persons.

Hopefully both detectives are OK----what is 'WS'? TIA [/*]

WS is webslueths.
I hope they are okay as well. I really appreciate all that they are doing for the families of these young men. I sent an email telling them so and received a nice reply.

[gestalt]

Just throwing this out there

I ask: why use a smiley face?
I am now researching weird factoids.

A couple of things I learned:

Musician Ozzy Osbourne has smiley faces tattoed on his knees.
and Henry Rollins has a smiley face drawn on his head.

also, there are many computer codes for smiley faces.

[butterfly28]

Originally posted by gestalt
Just throwing this out there

I ask: why use a smiley face?
I am now researching weird factoids.

A couple of things I learned:

Musician Ozzy Osbourne has smiley faces tattoed on his knees.
and Henry Rollins has a smiley face drawn on his head.

also, there are many computer codes for smiley faces. [/*]

That is interesting! That is a good question... why a smiley face?

[incognito]

Last night on the local fox news (Mpls) they had a segment on this. They had been running headlines all day to get people to watch. They said stuff like "Drinking, drowning.....these people know who is doing it and they are doing something about it."

I watched thinking it would be some more news but it turned out the reporter doesn't believe in the smiley face theory. He was in LaCrosse where they have a river watch on the weekends for anyone who is drunk. The claim was that since the volunteers have been out, there have been no drownings in LaCrosse.

On another note.....the family of Scott Radel has filed a suit against the bars that Scott was drinking in.

The detectives will be helping in reopening the Tommy Booth case.

I am still waiting to read the final autopsy report on William Jacobson who was found in NY. He was from Mn. Preliminary reports were that he drowned but since this case happened a day or so after the smiley face theory was announced they are doing a more thorough autopsy. The family had a service for him this past week.

[annalyzer]

Originally posted by incognito
snip~ The claim was that since the volunteers have been out, there have been no drownings in LaCrosse.

[/*]

Couldn't it also be said that there haven't been any more murders since the waterways have been being watched?

[incognito]

I was thinking the same thing. Oh I forgot to mention the reporter used the phrase "drowning in coincidence". I wonder if Vance Holmes heard that, since his website has used that phrase for a few years now.

[emdragon]

Mark Furhman doesn't believe these are murders, just accidental deaths. Badden agrees. (Yet neither considered the fact that none of the drownings were women)

Smiley faces have been used on Extacy tabs.

[annalyzer]

Originally posted by trigger



Yes Good Point. Im very disappointed that MF doesn't think there is a link with these drownings. After all, he seems to go beyond an unsolved murders and figures it out pretty good. [/*]

My thoughts exactly.

[Oehll]

I find it hard to believe ANY REASONABLE PERSON could look at all of these cases and NOT see a elationship!! Of couse, this is jmho.

[Devotion]

Originally posted by incognito
Tommy Booth may be another link

http://kstp.com/article/stories/S434838.shtml?cat=1

Police in Pennsylvania have found new evidence in a closed drowning case,
discovered after 5 EYEWITNESS NEWS’ investigation into the drowning deaths of over 40 other young men [/*]

IMO..WHO knows, there may be more than 40 deaths and more than 11 states if everyone keeps digging.
These young men may have been "targeted"in some way and by whom?
It definitely is NO coincidence!

There needs to be a list made from ALL States of young men missing in the last 10 yrs.:
1. Name
2. age
3. College or employment
4. what the person was doing before missing
5. Time they went missing
6. comparison of what these Young men had in common.
7.One connection has to be with the drinking
8. Were they targeted, followed or picked at random?

Either way someone connected with the murders had to be near the bars/partys.

This retired detective, Anthony Duarte is looking into nearly 90 separate cases.
He’s concluded that McNeill’s death is linked to at least 40 others that have occurred in 11 different states.

Almost all involved popular athletes with good grades.
Most had been drinking before they disappeared and their bodies subsequently found in near-frozen bodies of water.

[Devotion]

Originally posted by Leather&amp;Lace

That is scary and if there is any truth to their belief's, I hope they can get a task team together to find the killer(s).
There has been a lot of young men that have disappeared.
It does not just stop in those states either.... [/*]

Imo...NO, it doesn't stop in those states.
This handsome young man disappeared in North Carolina while in a bar with friends.

Notice 5 yrs. to the day that Josh Guimond disappeared in MN. (Nov.9, 2002)

Kyle Flieschmann was last seen early Friday morning (Nov.9, 2007) around 2:20am in Uptown Charlotte, NC
leaving the Buckhead Saloon on 5th Street and College Street.

Kyle was wearing a black shirt, jeans, and black dress shoes.
Kyle left his black pea COAT at the bar along with his CREDIT CARD!!!!!
There has been no usage of his bank funds since.

He did not leave any messages and his cell phone has been off since.
Kyle is a graduate of Elon University.

[Devotion]

Originally posted by kakax
In 1990, I was a college student in Atlanta. My cousin and I had come back from Christmas break early and went out with some guys from Georgia Tech. We went to a bar where we stayed at least until 2am. One of the guys we were hanging out with could not be found when we left the bar. We didn't bring him, so we weren't all too worried about it.

Well he was found a few days later in Piedmont Park Lake...his shoes and clothes folded up right on the edge of the lake.
No one ever understood it....
I don't know all of the details about these alleged murders....
seems like they have been in the Northeast but it struck me as so similar.

He was a cute normal college guy who we had a hard time believing went for a swim in January...drunk or not. It just never made sense.

I haven't seen any information anywhere to report this....I did post it on Greta's tip box...but I am sure it doesn't have anything to do with it.

Just an odd way for all of these young guys to die.....[/*]

WAY TOO ODD AND WAY TOO SIMILAR..imo

[gestalt]

These young men who are murdered are, for the most part, what the general public would define as: "clean-cut" types, right?

I've been thinking that whoever wanted to kill them:

1) are in a nonconformist, anti-mainstream group
2) are psychopaths who want it to look like the murderers are in the 1) group.

[spirit07]

I just ran across this and thought I would post. Anyone ever heard of Keith Jesperson, the Happy Face Killer?

www.post-gazette.com/pg/07351/841474-85.stm

[SaraSidle]

Originally posted by spirit07
I just ran across this and thought I would post. Anyone ever heard of Keith Jesperson, the Happy Face Killer?

www.post-gazette.com/pg/07351/841474-85.stm [/*]


Yes I read a book about it. He was a sicko IMO

[Motomom]

Originally posted by spirit07
I just ran across this and thought I would post. Anyone ever heard of Keith Jesperson, the Happy Face Killer?

www.post-gazette.com/pg/07351/841474-85.stm [/*]

Never heard of him before. Was a very good article and creepy. I'd like to see the entire letters.

[spirit07]

I didn't really do a thorough search, maybe the letters are available online.

[gestalt]

Thanks for the reminder i.e. Jesperson.

I would think much of what we want to know is on Crime Library:

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/predators/jesperson/murder_1.html

[spirit07]

Thanks for the link, and SaraSidle, I'll be back to ask you questions about the book after I have time to read-up more.

[gestalt]

Been reading across web sites again. Always interesting to read what other people's thoughts are.

What motivates the suspects to select the victims?

Obviously they are angry at mainstream college guys who are jocks.

Theories I have pondered:

Women in or associated with some goth type music group who travel the country in a van?

Men who had to fight in war who loathe them because they despise their elite exclusionary status?

Psychopathic deviants who target young college men (similar to murderers who worked in pairs and traveled around the country in a van?) Crime Library has many articles about several.

What do you think?

[gestalt]

add to the above: if it is women, I would think that possibly one or more could have been raped by a college jock type.

[crimeq]

Originally posted by gestalt
Been reading across web sites again. Always interesting to read what other people's thoughts are.

What motivates the suspects to select the victims?

Obviously they are angry at mainstream college guys who are jocks.

Theories I have pondered:

Women in or associated with some goth type music group who travel the country in a van?

Men who had to fight in war who loathe them because they despise their elite exclusionary status?

Psychopathic deviants who target young college men (similar to murderers who worked in pairs and traveled around the country in a van?) Crime Library has many articles about several.

What do you think? [/*]

If it were just one killer, I would think it would be a man who had deep hatred for others who had achievements and opportunities that were denied to him. Way early on, upthread, I posted a description of an extended family member of mine who went over the top with rage toward a college guy, whose type was similar to those who have drowned in bodies of water. My extended family member was a heavy drinker at the time, and the alcohol would loosen the rage in him and he would begin venting--in this case, unwarranted rage against a stranger to him, a young college frat guy who was in the bar with friends, obviously a popular and well-liked guy, who had an aura of confidence and self-acceptance about him. My extended family member was denied any real family relationships early on and I think it scarred him for life.

So, if we're dealing with one perp, it could be someone who gets set off like that from repressed rage and jealousy.

However the detectives were clear in stating more than one killer is involved--and I have to go :confused: My first thought was a satanist cult, but then I read up on satanists and learned, much to my surprise, that they probably wouldn't be involved in something like this--that there is in fact a creed they have, to not harm aninals or human beings (the term satanism apparently means to them simply that they reject belief in a god).

So I'm at a loss. If it's more than one person, they must be very close-knit and trust each other implicitly. That could indicte a couple, or a pair, to me--more than a "gang".

[spirit07]

I think this is the big problem with these murders, trying to find any theory that not only makes sense as far as motivation for targeting these victims and these various locations. I hate to admit I have come up with all kinds of crazy ideas like maybe the guys are being murdered to make more young women available or there is some bar connection (but I think some were at parties, weren't they?).

In my wild thoughts, I've even entertained the thought their DNA is being taken! If these victims do all have some connection, I don't believe they are being murdered because someone despises or is jealous of young, good looking, intelligent, athletic college guys - not sure why, just a hunch.

I've never read all these guys were in fraternities, but am curious about that. Or if they had any internet presence. It seems they are picked on-the-spot though?

Too bad we haven't heard much more. I usually have a high regard for Mark Furhman's opinion so I am perplexed that he sees no connection, or rather that it has made me more skeptical. It could end up that only a small portion of these within a limited geography have some connection?

[crimeq]

Originally posted by spirit07
I think this is the big problem with these murders, trying to find any theory that not only makes sense as far as motivation for targeting these victims and these various locations. I hate to admit I have come up with all kinds of crazy ideas like maybe the guys are being murdered to make more young women available or there is some bar connection (but I think some were at parties, weren't they?).

In my wild thoughts, I've even entertained the thought their DNA is being taken! If these victims do all have some connection, I don't believe they are being murdered because someone despises or is jealous of young, good looking, intelligent, athletic college guys - not sure why, just a hunch.

I've never read all these guys were in fraternities, but am curious about that. Or if they had any internet presence. It seems they are picked on-the-spot though?

Too bad we haven't heard much more. I usually have a high regard for Mark Furhman's opinion so I am perplexed that he sees no connection, or rather that it has made me more skeptical. It could end up that only a small portion of these within a limited geography have some connection? [/*]

I also wondered about connections to drugs or homosexuality :shrug: though that doesn't seem to fit what's known so far.

[spirit07]

Originally posted by crimeq


I also wondered about connections to drugs or homosexuality :shrug: though that doesn't seem to fit what's known so far. [/*]

Yeah, I don't think any of the reports have mentioned drugs as a problem. Not sure about them being gay/bi, probably not a connection, but this might not be known either especially with this age group.

I keep thinking of that case (in the Northwest, I think), where some guy was planning on suicide and got a bunch of people across the country who were going to commit suicide the same way at the same time - I forget, but this was found out beforehand and averted. So, I am entertaining the strange thought this could be something going on online although not public.

[SaraSidle]

Originally posted by spirit07
I think this is the big problem with these murders, trying to find any theory that not only makes sense as far as motivation for targeting these victims and these various locations. I hate to admit I have come up with all kinds of crazy ideas like maybe the guys are being murdered to make more young women available or there is some bar connection (but I think some were at parties, weren't they?).

In my wild thoughts, I've even entertained the thought their DNA is being taken! If these victims do all have some connection, I don't believe they are being murdered because someone despises or is jealous of young, good looking, intelligent, athletic college guys - not sure why, just a hunch.

I've never read all these guys were in fraternities, but am curious about that. Or if they had any internet presence. It seems they are picked on-the-spot though?

Too bad we haven't heard much more. I usually have a high regard for Mark Furhman's opinion so I am perplexed that he sees no connection, or rather that it has made me more skeptical. It could end up that only a small portion of these within a limited geography have some connection? [/*]


Well we have to figure the murders with happy faces are connected. Also tossing bodies into water is usually a good way to get rid of any DNA or forensic evidence.

[spirit07]

I did come across a news article that I can't find to save me now. It was concerning these killings (and I think was from the NE of the country). If I remember correctly, there was a suspect in mind. It was a guy who had these fantasies about drowning or suffocating - and a bunch more that I can't really remember, but he was a real strange one it sounded. It seemed they didn't have enough evidence to accuse/arrest him of a crime and since the guy moved to Missouri.

Anyone else read this?

[crimeq]

Originally posted by spirit07
I did come across a news article that I can't find to save me now. It was concerning these killings (and I think was from the NE of the country). If I remember correctly, there was a suspect in mind. It was a guy who had these fantasies about drowning or suffocating - and a bunch more that I can't really remember, but he was a real strange one it sounded. It seemed they didn't have enough evidence to accuse/arrest him of a crime and since the guy moved to Missouri.

Anyone else read this? [/*]

I think that's the same person that a famous profiler, probably Pat Brown, engaged in an online room discussion about drowning fetishes. The profiler pretended to be the sister of someone who had drowned (not one of these smiley face victims) and engaged him in a lot of conversation about drowning. The profiler thought this person was a good candidate. I don't know what the final resolution was on that.

[crimeq]

Originally posted by spirit07


Yeah, I don't think any of the reports have mentioned drugs as a problem. Not sure about them being gay/bi, probably not a connection, but this might not be known either especially with this age group.

I keep thinking of that case (in the Northwest, I think), where some guy was planning on suicide and got a bunch of people across the country who were going to commit suicide the same way at the same time - I forget, but this was found out beforehand and averted. So, I am entertaining the strange thought this could be something going on online although not public. [/*]

These could even be murders for hire--that someone with a grudge against the guy would have him "taken out". I have a friend who worked with inner city kids--took them on a campout once, and came back with much more knowledge than she'd had before about the group--that drug dealers used kids as runners for drugs (knew about that) and the same people would hire the kids to kill someone for revenge, or break a leg, etc. As I recall, the going rate to break a leg was $50, and to kill someone was $200. These were real-life stories from real-life kids involved in life on the streets in the inner city. Price of a life was very cheap. :(

[spirit07]

Originally posted by crimeq


I think that's the same person that a famous profiler, probably Pat Brown, engaged in an online room discussion about drowning fetishes. The profiler pretended to be the sister of someone who had drowned (not one of these smiley face victims) and engaged him in a lot of conversation about drowning. The profiler thought this person was a good candidate. I don't know what the final resolution was on that. [/*]

Interesting, I'll have to see if I can make a connection that way... although Pat Brown is not a good nor ethical profiler in my book.

[spirit07]

crimeq... The news article I saw didn't mentioned Pat Brown I don't think and maybe my geography is partially wrong, but you might be right about it being the same man (reading the story on crimelibrary). The CL articles also talks about a website devoted to this kind of fetish.

[spirit07]

Thanks for the link Tara. From the article...

"He was loaded into a vehicle, a van, driven around and eventually murdered," Jan Jenkins told CNN. "He was murdered and thrown away like a piece of trash."

I keep reading this about the van, but does anyone know how they obtained this evidence?

[spirit07]

Oh, maybe it is from the jail tip, I guess?