Week End 4/26, 4/27, 4/29 [Archive] - In Session Message Boards

LLaFren

04-26-2008, 05:56 AM

OMG - First time I've seen someone from the Morman Church speak out:

Quote:

Elder Quentin L. Cook, an apostle for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, appealed to the media in a news release on April 17 to make a clear distinction in their reports between the Church and the polygamist sect in Texas.

Cook praised news media that are making this distinction but expressed concerns about others who are perpetuating mistruths about the Church, whose members are commonly referred to as Mormons, the release said.

“It’s only to be applied to members of the church of LDS and should never be used to describe a polygamist sect,”Comstock said.

Full Article:

http://www.victoriaadvocate.com/features/faith/story/235393.html
I wonder when they'll step up to the plate and help the kids?

MoonFlwr

04-26-2008, 07:18 AM

An interesting article!

Hi, LLaFren :)

KatyDid

04-26-2008, 08:48 AM

Originally posted by LLaFren
OMG - First time I've seen someone from the Morman Church speak out:

Quote:

Elder Quentin L. Cook, an apostle for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, appealed to the media in a news release on April 17 to make a clear distinction in their reports between the Church and the polygamist sect in Texas.

Cook praised news media that are making this distinction but expressed concerns about others who are perpetuating mistruths about the Church, whose members are commonly referred to as Mormons, the release said.

“It’s only to be applied to members of the church of LDS and should never be used to describe a polygamist sect,”Comstock said.

Full Article:

http://www.victoriaadvocate.com/features/faith/story/235393.html
I wonder when they'll step up to the plate and help the kids? [/*]

:beer: great question that deserves an answer.

i also wonder if he is willing to talk about the secrets of the mormon church. they still use the book of mormon in their teachings.

why haven't they spoken out about the atrocities of the polygamy groups? the mormon church wields a mighty sword. if they would come up to the plate in utah, don't you think the government would not be so tolerant of the polygamist groups.

his words are only words~~~where are his actions?

"...mormon should never be used to describe polygamist sects..." :confused:

isn't that where polygamy got its start?
hammer

MoonFlwr

04-26-2008, 08:55 AM

Originally posted by KatyDid

:beer: great question that deserves an answer.

i also wonder if he is willing to talk about the secrets of the mormon church. they still use the book of mormon in their teachings.

why haven't they spoken out about the atrocities of the polygamy groups? the mormon church wields a mighty sword. if they would come up to the plate in utah, don't you think the government would not be so tolerant of the polygamist groups.

his words are only words~~~where are his actions?

"...mormon should never be used to describe polygamist sects..." :confused:

isn't that where polygamy got its start?
hammer [/*]

Well, that's not where it got it's start in history (imo), but, yeah, the mormon church DID condone it.

KatyDid

04-26-2008, 09:01 AM

Originally posted by MoonFlwr

Well, that's not where it got it's start in history (imo), but, yeah, the mormon church DID condone it. [/*]

:seeya: Thank you for the correction MoonFlwr.

walton

04-26-2008, 09:52 AM

Originally posted by MoonFlwr

Well, that's not where it got it's start in history (imo), but, yeah, the mormon church DID condone it. [/*]

But it is where it got its start in U.S. history isn't it? All of the issues we have today concerning Polygamy problems and abuse have started with the LDS Church.

How many other states are having problems with it do you think?

Are there other groups in the U.S. that are practicing Polygamy that are not using the Book of Mormon as their base?

walton

04-26-2008, 10:09 AM

http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/news-releases-stories/senior-church-leader-appeals-to-media-to-make-distinction

Elder Cook said it is very confusing to the public when some media use “Mormon” to describe the Texas-based polygamous group that is currently under investigation for possible incidents of child abuse. He reiterated that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, with over 13 million members worldwide, is not connected in any way to sects that practice polygamy.

Drawing contrasts between the Church and polygamists, Elder Cook said that Church members do not live in isolated compounds, arrange marriages, dress in old-fashioned clothing or wear unusual hairstyles. [/*]

Elder Cook needs to talk to the cult expert that they used during the Eldorado hearing. jmo

In a nutshell- The FLDS use the Book of Mormon to condone their practice of Polygamy and their lifestyle.

Weddings behind closed doors.
Threats of Blood Atonement at Weddings.
Secret names given during weddings.
Special garments worn to this day to protect them thru out their day. I can't remember what the little markings meant. I'll have to look again.
All still practiced not only by the FLDS but by those in the LDS Church.

Lots of Churches have their own little ceremonies and rituals. But I don't believe that there are any other than the LDS that practice so many behind closed doors.

Boy these groups sure have a lot of issues about closed doors, big walls, big fences. jmo

lotty

04-26-2008, 10:15 AM

Hi Walton :seeya:

Did the courts ever appoint new UEP Trustees? Just curious.
IMO Sure puts you between a rock and a hard place if you are trying to stay legit. with Bruce Wisan and in Warren's good graces too. JMO/IMO

Roux

04-26-2008, 10:39 AM

Last night channel surfing I saw a man on NG from one of the group homes the children have been sent to. He said among other things they'd done at their facility so as to not upset the children, they removed everything red in color, told all the staff not to wear red. I would suppose this has something to do with blood? Does anyone know the significance of this to the cult? TY.

lotty

04-26-2008, 10:48 AM

Originally posted by Roux
Last night channel surfing I saw a man on NG from one of the group homes the children have been sent to. He said among other things they'd done at their facility so as to not upset the children, they removed everything red in color, told all the staff not to wear red. I would suppose this has something to do with blood? Does anyone know the significance of this to the cult? TY. [/*]

IMO Somewhere I read, Warren doesn't like the color red. What Warren says goes. IMO/JMO

walton

04-26-2008, 11:40 AM

Originally posted by lotty

IMO Somewhere I read, Warren doesn't like the color red. What Warren says goes. IMO/JMO [/*]

Guess what color the vehicle was when Warren got pulled over.

Yup, Red.

Warren was just being a horses patoot concerning different things.

walton

04-26-2008, 11:45 AM

Originally posted by lotty
Hi Walton :seeya:

Did the courts ever appoint new UEP Trustees? Just curious.
IMO Sure puts you between a rock and a hard place if you are trying to stay legit. with Bruce Wisan and in Warren's good graces too. JMO/IMO [/*]

You know I thought Katy posted something awhile back but I can't find it.

I do know that Judge Denise Lindberg did everyone a favor by having Bruce Wisan in charge. jmo

Has anyone seen any comments from Gary Engle?

tisamystery

04-26-2008, 12:43 PM

Who is the little girl Marilyn shows a photo of? You know Marilyn, the woman who gave the tour of the house. Then she opened a photo album and showed off her little girl. I'm confused. Is this really her daughter? Why is the kid dressed in contemporary clothes and hair style? Wouldn't she look like the other kids? Is this really her daughter or some photo they dug up somewhere? If I'm not mistaken - and I could be - the little girl has a red barette which would be against their "red thing", wouldn't it? So who is it and why are they showing it?

I was also thinking about Marilyn's claim to only one child. Could it be she's younger than she looks and can't admit to other older children? Could it be she's lost babies?

Devotion

04-26-2008, 01:32 PM

Originally posted by tisamystery

Who is the little girl Marilyn shows a photo of?

You know Marilyn, the woman who gave the tour of the house.

Then she opened a photo album and showed off her little girl. I'm confused.

Is this really her daughter?

Why is the kid dressed in contemporary clothes and hair style? Wouldn't she look like the other kids?

Is this really her daughter or some photo they dug up somewhere?
If I'm not mistaken - and I could be - the little girl has a red barette which would be against their "red thing", wouldn't it?
So who is it and why are they showing it?

I was also thinking about Marilyn's claim to only one child.
Could it be she's younger than she looks and can't admit to other older children? ....... [/*]

IMO.... The way Marilyn spoke of the child raised suspicions in my mind....

Did anyone NOTICE how Marilyn continually referred the the female child as "THE LITTLE GIRL"?
Was this not a distant way to speak of one's child?
Why didn't she use the child's FIRST name?

Never once did she say "my daughter" or "my baby"......jmo

xray ra

04-26-2008, 02:28 PM

Originally posted by Lyndawitha"Y

I could be wrong here, but recall the RED is significant as worn by evil persons..Hence that story of the Scarlet Letter placed on the clothing of people deemed Bad, Evil, Sinners..

Anyone else think this is true..souns plausible?

LMS:seeya: [/*]

Hey Lynda:beer:

I think that red is also related to the "devil". I was however encouraged by the post above that said the children were riding RED bikes. How cool!!:seeya:

lotty

04-26-2008, 02:30 PM

Originally posted by Lyndawitha"Y

I could be wrong here, but recall the RED is significant as worn by evil persons..Hence that story of the Scarlet Letter placed on the clothing of people deemed Bad, Evil, Sinners..

Anyone else think this is true..souns plausible?

LMS:seeya: [/*]

Could be, the FLDS women aren't supposed to wear black either. I've noticed wear very dark shades, but not black. JMO/IMO

xray ra

04-26-2008, 02:34 PM

Lynda, sorry, the reference to the "RED" bikes was not on this thread . I'm gonna have to go back to the other threads. But it was reported that upon arriving at their new group home, some of the children saw red bikes and ran out of the buses to play with them.
If you can't find the post I will. Promise.:)

KatyDid

04-26-2008, 02:35 PM

Originally posted by Devotion

IMO.... The way Marilyn spoke of the child raised suspicions in my mind....

Did anyone NOTICE how Marilyn continually referred the the female child as "THE LITTLE GIRL"?
Was this not a distant way to speak of one's child?
Why didn't she use the child's FIRST name?

Never once did she say "my daughter" or "my baby"......jmo [/*]

hiya Devotion :seeya:

A couple of times she called her Marva, but mostly she said little girl. I agree, it is a strange way for a mother to speak. She showed a photo of the girl and she indeed looks like she would be about 10 y/o. Here is part of the video transcript from NG last night.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0804/25/ng.01.html

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My little girl`s name is Marva (ph). She`s such a lovable little girl. She loves school. She`s in 3rd grade. She would come home, Mother, I got an A-plus today. I would grab her and hug her, Good job, Marva! Good job! She is my only child. These are her clothes right here. This is Marva`s bed. You can see it`s empty, and it is the hardest thing in the world for me (INAUDIBLE) in this room (INAUDIBLE) no little girl.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

Wonder how Marilyn lucked out having only one child? Is Marilyn one of Warren's wives?

KatyDid

04-26-2008, 02:37 PM

Originally posted by xray ra
Lynda, sorry, the reference to the "RED" bikes was not on this thread . I'm gonna have to go back to the other threads. But it was reported that upon arriving at their new group home, some of the children saw red bikes and ran out of the buses to play with them.
If you can't find the post I will. Promise.:) [/*]

Here is the transcipt from NG show about the red bikes.

Back to Jack Downey. He is running a children`s shelter where some of the FLDS children are going to be sent or are now there. You said you removed the color red. What does the color red signify to these children?

DOWNEY: Nancy, I`m not sure what it signifies. We were just advised by Child Protective Services that the children may react to the color of red. But I have to tell you that some of the little ones jumped right on red tricycles and had a great time this afternoon.

GRACE: Do they seem happy, Jack?

DOWNEY: They do. They arrived very tired, I would have to say somewhat dirty. They`re not used to riding on a bus, so there was a lot of difficulty sometimes with the stability of the children. But the children are wonderful. I have to admire them for their resilience and what they`re going through.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0804/25/ng.01.html

I just happened to be on that web page grabbing another quote. ;)

xray ra

04-26-2008, 02:50 PM

Thanks Katy: I was going crazy looking for the post.!!! I knew I saw/read something about it.
:patriot:

KatyDid

04-26-2008, 02:50 PM

Originally posted by lotty
Hi Walton :seeya:

Did the courts ever appoint new UEP Trustees? Just curious.
IMO Sure puts you between a rock and a hard place if you are trying to stay legit. with Bruce Wisan and in Warren's good graces too. JMO/IMO [/*]

Hey Lotty :seeya:

This is the UEP website:

http://www.ueptrust.com/

There are links to the advisory board and the court rulings on the left side of the site.

KatyDid

04-26-2008, 02:55 PM

lots of articles about UEP from different news sources condensed at this site:

http://www.childbrides.org/UEP.html

scroll down the page....the most recent information is at the bottom of the page.

The most recent article at the site:

Lawsuits, taxes, bills dominate UEP report
By Ben Winslow
Deseret Morning News
Originally published Wednesday, January 30, 2008

Lawsuits, taxes, big bills — but some progress is being made in the Fundamentalist LDS communities of Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City, Ariz. A new report filed in Salt Lake City's 3rd District Court details the efforts of the court-appointed special fiduciary to reform the United Effort Plan Trust, the FLDS Church's $110 million real estate holdings arm. The Jan. 23 report is an update to the judge who is in charge of the UEP Trust. In 2005, the courts took control of the UEP Trust amid allegations that polygamous sect leader Warren Jeffs and other top FLDS officials had mismanaged it. The court-ordered reforms are changing the landscape of the border towns, but it is not coming easily. In his report, fiduciary Bruce Wisan detailed the numerous lawsuits the UEP Trust is involved in, the painful efforts to collect taxes and pay bills. "Due to the difficulties of selling Trust property, the Trust is now experiencing a serious cash crunch," Wisan wrote. "As a result, the Trust has been unable to pay outstanding professional fees owing to the Fiduciary's accounting firm and the Fiduciary's Utah law firm." Lawsuits dominate the 300-plus page report. The UEP Trust is being sued by Elissa Wall, the child bride who was the star witness in the criminal case against Warren Jeffs. There is also litigation over property in an FLDS enclave in Canada, against Hildale and Colorado City over subdividing property, and a lawsuit over a modular home.

lotty

04-26-2008, 03:01 PM

Originally posted by KatyDid

Hey Lotty :seeya:

This is the UEP website:

http://www.ueptrust.com/

There are links to the advisory board and the court rulings on the left side of the site. [/*]

TY! TY! You have saved me a lot of time...have to go back to work now, but I will look it over this evening.:seeya:

Ladyhawk

04-26-2008, 03:11 PM

Originally posted by Lyndawitha"Y

I could be wrong here, but recall the RED is significant as worn by evil persons..Hence that story of the Scarlet Letter placed on the clothing of people deemed Bad, Evil, Sinners..

Anyone else think this is true..souns plausible?

LMS:seeya: [/*]

In this article on the guides put together for the foster caregivers, is the explanation for not wearing the color red.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5731553.html

walton

04-26-2008, 05:03 PM

http://myeldorado.net/

Looks like Merrill Jessop is gonna be one of "those" dads that I was talking about earlier. He has been getting visits from his lawyer Danny Hurley.

Did anyone notice if Merrill was one those waiting to get their DNA tested? Or is he more worried about the land?

walton

04-26-2008, 05:36 PM

grammybear

I know this has to be a hard time for you and the LDS Church. I appreciate what President Hinckley was able to do concerning the Mountain Meadows Massacre issues. I appreciate that they finally recognized the issues concerning the Native American during that Massacre.

I appreciate the fact that Elder Cook has said that this is a time for the people of LDS faith to address the questions that people have concerning the Church.

And after posting with me for so long grammy you know I have questions.

Why did they feel the need to "marry" those young/old brides? Why couldn't they "take care of them" without the benefits of marriage?
Settlers crossed many other states and they didn't feel the need to "marry the widows".
The history proves that they even married women who were not single or widowed. (Parley Pratt for one)

Future Polygamy is one Revelation away isn't it? If the current Prophet or even a future Prophet had a "vision" that said Polygamy should be practiced wouldn't those that are true believers of the Church follow the Prophets word?

Are there or are there not gestures made during these Sacred ceremonies that go back to the day of Joseph Smiths Blood Atonement speach?

You said that the LDS are not the only ones that practiced Polygamy. Could you tell me what other people practiced Polygamy on U.S. soil back then?

When the "cult expert" was on stand he mentioned that the practice of marrying young girls started with Warren Jeffs. It didn't start there did it grammy? Rulon himself married young girls. And so did Prophets before him.

Again grammy I really really do appreciate your point of view on these issues.

walton

04-26-2008, 06:50 PM

http://gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-updates-from/

2:57 p.m. - The FLDS generally expels members who engage in extramarital sex, the religious expert testifies.

In his experience, he says under questioning, parents would not approach a girl balking at marriage by telling her she will go to hell or have to leave the community.

But there could be some spiritual consequences discussed with the female, he says.

"Basically, they're into matchmaking," the expert says.

The community will say, "We think it's a good match," he says.

It's a new phenomenon to have girls marrying at a very young age, the expert says, and it probably originated with Warren Jeffs, a now-imprisoned FLDS spiritual leader. Most people would say Jeffs is still the FLDS leader, the expert says.

walton

04-26-2008, 06:54 PM

From the same link:
3:11 p.m. - A child's attorney asks the religious expert whether he's saying that differences exist among sect members and their beliefs.

"You cannot treat them all the same. They're not homogeneous," the religious expert says.

The 20,000 FLDS members will probably always recognize a single prophet, but how much they adhere to the prophet's teachings just depends, the expert says.

The attorney asks whether the expert has heard of "lying for the Lord."

"There are times when they can be deceptive - basically, when they feel their survival is at stake," the expert says.

The FLDS has been subject to persecution, he says: Law enforcement officers have come in and asked the children, "Who is your mommy, and who is your daddy?" When the children answered, then mommy and daddy went to jail for bigamy.

So, he says, the children are taught not to be forthcoming about who their parents are.

The child's attorney asks about the bed in the temple, an item mentioned in many news reports.

The bed is there, the expert says, because the FLDS members might fast, and when hundreds of people fast, there might be incidences of fainting.

To his knowledge, he says, no sex has occurred in the temple.

3:21 p.m. - An attorney for parents objects to the line of questioning about Jeffs, noting that, "He's in jail somewhere."

It turns out that Jeffs is the father of the child the attorney is representing.

Another child's attorney asks: Isn't it true that Mr. Jeffs not only encourages marriage between older men and underage girls, but he also participates in it himself - a 40-year-old who marries underage girls?

It's not a case of some sort of "leering" yen for underage girls, the expert says. Instead, what probably happens is that Jeffs sees that a girl has reached adulthood as defined by the community, and then he offers the girl the opportunity for marriage.

Does he offer that opportunity to girls as young as 14? the attorney said.

Laughter breaks out.

"I don't have personal knowledge" of every offer he's made," the expert says. Jeffs has recommended younger girls than his predecessors did for marriage, he says.

How young? the attorney asks.

"Thirteen is the youngest he's recommended," the expert says.

The FLDS members believe they have a sacred responsibility to help all the children of God come down from their state of "pre-mortality" so that they can have the chance to go to heaven, he says.

"They believe that having children is their sacred calling," the expert says.

walton

04-26-2008, 06:58 PM

3:40 p.m. - A father's attorney asks the expert witness on religion: What do you know of a "house of hiding" mentioned in some documents?

The FLDS has been persecuted at times in its 180-year history, the expert says, so it has had to have places for people to go to hide out. But, he says, if authorities were seeking a child molester among the FLDS, then the other members would not be prone to help him.

The judge moves the civil hearing along by calling for questions from the mothers' attorneys.

"Obviously, we're not going to get through by 4 o'clock, but I still hope to get through by sundown," the judge says.

Are FLDS members not living in a setting like at the YFZ Ranch more involved in the outside world? says the first mothers' attorney to question the expert.

No, generally, they are very insular, the religious expert says. About 60 percent of the sect members are polygamists, he says.

Conceiving, bearing and rearing children is considered the most sacred responsibility for the FLDS, so couples take great care in the rearing of their children, he says.

walton

04-26-2008, 07:05 PM

Who is this expert?

William John Walsh a Mormon scholar who has written many articles: Scroll towards the bottom to find the articles he has written.

http://www.fairlds.org/apol/ai049.html

What is Fair? http://www.fairlds.org/faq.html

What is FAIR?
FAIR is a non-profit corporation that is dedicated to helping people deal with issues related to anti-Mormonism.

What does the name FAIR stand for?
FAIR is an acronym for Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research. Since most people can't remember that name because it is so long and difficult, they just call it FAIR. There is a media organization also known as FAIR but they are not related to us in any way.

What does the word "apologetic" mean?
The word "apologetic" is not commonly used in the LDS community and may be unfamiliar to you. The word literally means "in defense of the faith." It is not talking about apologizing to anyone or being sorry for something.

Now why would a Mormon scholar get on stand and talk about the practices of the FLDS Church?

walton

04-26-2008, 07:10 PM

http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/

CPS rejected expert's help
John Walsh read my story about the tip sheet given to Texas Child Protective Services workers to educate them about FLDS ways.

Walsh is a religious studies expert whose areas of specialty include the LDS Church and fundamentalist Mormons, in particular the FLDS. He testified during a two-day hearing in which a Texas judge decided 437 FLDS children shoud stay in state custody. He lives in Texas.

But none of that mattered awhit, apparently, to the Texas agency responsible for looking out for the children's best interests.
After reading the tip sheet story, Walsh contacted me by email and said he had offered his services, free of charge, to CPS and the State Bar of Texas before the 14-day hearing took place.

''I told them I was willing to help any of the 500 lawyers involved who felt they didn't have enough understanding about fundamentalist Mormonism and the FLDS,'' he said.

Maybe they understood only too well. jmo

walton

04-26-2008, 07:17 PM

Originally posted by grammybear
**snipped** President Hinckley did a lot of good deeds not just for the church but society. He was a wonderful man and lived life just as he taught.

I cannot comment on the hand gestures because it is to sacred to me to talk about with people outside of our religion. We do not even talk about these things outside of the temple. It is total respect for our Lord and Savior.

I do not have all the answers and neither does a lot of people but I can tell you that for me I totally try to live my life the way that Jesus did by showing compassion and concern for everybody. I try to treat people like I want to be treated. It is not just about my religion it is also about the person I am.

jmoo [/*]

I agree with you about President Hinckley.

And I respect your comment on the hand gestures.

And I really must say grammy that I appreciate and respect your input.
:rose: Thank you.

walton

04-26-2008, 07:19 PM

Originally posted by grammybear
I do not agree with a lot that the expert had to say. If these people are lying to themselves knowing full well that these children are forced into marriages. They justify their actions by saying it is all about religion. I think it is very sad that one man has total say over whatever happens to all those lives. Just from the Jeffs trial we know that Jeffs did make these young girls go into these marriages. Infact he used the threat of eternal damnation if these girls did not do what he told them to do. No matter how you pretty up the words the threats are there.
From what I have read about this group women and children are property to the men and their land means more to them then their families.

As we go through life we have to adapt to changes all the time. It is fine that these women dress in such an old fashioned way, but what they do to their family is very barbaric and should not be tolerated.

IMO they are using religion for their own greed selfishness and control of lives around themselves.

jmoo [/*]

I totally agree with you.

LLaFren

04-26-2008, 07:20 PM

Grammybear, I sincerely hope you know that I mean no disrespect at all to you or the Morman religion. My main focus was meant to be that with all the offers of help the Mainstreet Church seemed to be the most logical to help the children, since the members of that Church could show (lack of a better term) how the teachings have been changed to suit those who would twist them for their own purposes.

My feelings and experience say that for me to connect with someone, we must have something in common, something to build a bridge.

I know I would be completely out of my depth with these children having been raised in a fundamentalist religion and being a practicing non-denominationist.

The closest I can come to knowing anything about the Church of Latter Saints is that Donny Osmond can still make me swoon:D

emdragon

04-26-2008, 09:06 PM

I have my own opinion on the LDS based on my own Christianity I can not see it as anything but a cult... all bet a very long lasting and consistent cult.

I have HUGE issues with the Book or Mormon and the Golden Tablets and how the story came to be.. I have problems with the secrecy involved in the faith.

I do not have a problem understanding how the polygamy came about and I understand it. It was a time of persecution and most of the men were being killed, there had to be a way to repopulate and to do that with only a few remaining men and to do it within the belief and teaching of the Bible they felt they had to be married.. I actually have no problem at all with that history of the Church.

I can go on and on about what I believe are the real concerns with the LDS but I want you grammy to understand that even though i see Mormonism as a cult I also respect and admire immensely their priority of family and let me be the first to say-I may not agree with your faith but I can see the good that has come from it, I see strong families, good morals and work ethics and no matter what those things are impressive and should be commended... You all are doing something right.

I will never forget Jim Jones, Koresh,Lundgren to name a few and I have studied a lot about cults and even if I say in my opinion Mormonism is a cult-be clear I do not mean in the same way as those groups named above or the FLDS.

tisamystery

04-26-2008, 10:38 PM

Apparenlty there are more than a few stories of how polygamy became a part of the Mormon faith. In "The God Makers" by Ed Decker & Dae Hunt (a biased history, in my opinion, but not altogether false) Joseph Smith simply prefered to have more than one woman in his life and his solution was to declare a mandate received from God directing those of the faith to practice polygamy. As I recall, his own wife (the first one) wasn't buying this convenient revelation and she left him. Again, found n a book that I find somewhat biased but perhaps somebody else as another source.

tisamystery

04-26-2008, 10:58 PM

I remember CPS saying the kids didn't know what crayons were. Yet when Marilyn was giving her tour, she held up a paper on which there was a FLDS woman (coloring book style drawing) colored in. She said one of the children had done it. What's going on?

wandering

04-26-2008, 11:04 PM

Originally posted by snoodles

The inbreeding angle is really interesting and I haven't seen anyone address it before. I bet they don't control it, but that's just a guess.

I just feel so sorry for those poor chidren - it seems like they are going to have a very difficult time no matter which way this goes, but I still hope the state remains in control of the kids. [/*]The state is handling it, they are trying to honor some of the religious culture.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080426/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat_children

cloe23

04-27-2008, 12:00 AM

Originally posted by KatyDid

:seeya: Thank you for the correction MoonFlwr. [/*]

Ok, so where did it get started??

sheltiemom

04-27-2008, 12:30 AM

Originally posted by snoodles

The inbreeding angle is really interesting and I haven't seen anyone address it before. I bet they don't control it, but that's just a guess. ..................

[/*]

______________________

Inbreeding links

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2005-12-29/news/forbidden-fruit/full
Doctors and family members interviewed by New Times say up to 20 children from families in the polygamist community are currently afflicted with the condition that requires full-time attention from caregivers. Victims suffer a range of symptoms, including severe epileptic seizures, inability to walk or even sit upright, severe speech impediments, failure to grow at a normal rate, and tragic physical deformities.

"They are in terrible shape," says Dr. Kirk A. Aleck, director of the Pediatric Neurogenetics Center at St. Joseph's Hospital. Aleck is a geneticist who participated along with Tarby and others in the groundbreaking study of several polygamous families with fumarase deficiency in the late 1990s.

There is no cure for the disease, which impedes the body's ability to process food at the cellular level.

"We can only treat the complications of the disorder," Aleck says. Once a baby is born with the condition, Aleck says, "You really can't treat the underlying disorder."

There is one documented case of a child dying from the malady since medical experts began studying it, but it is unknown how many others could have died in the fundamentalist community before the condition was diagnosed.

Before the plethora of fumarase deficiency cases was discovered in Colorado City and Hildale, many victims among the handful of cases documented worldwide died in the first several years of life.

"If you look in the literature, you won't find another dozen cases in the world that have been reported," says Tarby.

Experts say the number of children afflicted in the FLDS community is expected to steadily increase as a result of decades of inbreeding between two of the polygamous sect's founding families -- the Barlows and the Jessops.

"If you cross a Barlow and Jessop, you stand a high risk of getting this condition," Tarby says.

much more to that link and the following link

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/1,1249,635182923,00.html

Until a few years ago, scientists knew of only 13 cases of Fumarase Deficiency in the entire world. Tarby said he's now aware of 20 more victims, all within a few blocks of each other on the Utah-Arizona border.
The children live in the polygamist community once known as Short Creek that is now incorporated as the twin towns of Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City, Ariz. Tarby believes the recessive gene for Fumarase Deficiency was introduced to the community by one of its early polygamist founders.

According to community historian Ben Bistline, most of the community's 8,000 residents are in two major families descended from a handful of founders who settled there in the 1930s to live a polygamist lifestyle.

"Ninety percent of the community is related to one side or the other

I read somewhere on these cult boards where some of the flds women pray for such a child because they are docile and then they are able to receive SSI disability payments of $500 a month for each such child. Of course, it is also stated somewhere in the threads that the checks go to the "father" and thus a portion to the leadership cult funds.

sheltiemom

04-27-2008, 03:19 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by grammybear
I appreciate this board for the variety of opinions and thank goodness for our rights to believe what we do. My theory on cults is that all the members are controlled mind, body and soul by one person who professes to be God. There is no good to come from one person having absolute control over people.
We all have our free agency to make our own choices.

Because of my own abuse I have very strong opinions about abusers. It makes me cry to think about what so many children go through in their short lives.

jmoo [/*][/QUOTE-----------
____________________________

Grammybear,

I agree with your entire post, snipped for save space. I once had an elderly wise pastor (southern Baptist) who told me to never let another interpret the Bible for me and TELL me what I was to believe.

Now that I have got more knowledge of mind controlling cults that I did not have then, I realize how important that was to me.

I do not consider the LDS a cult. All religions differ somewhat and as long as they instill morality, teach us to love and care for one another and our Lord the little differences are not important to me....but the FLDS is another matter!

I am so happy that you are a survivor - I can tell from your posts that it has made you a loving and caring person.

MoonFlwr

04-27-2008, 06:26 AM

Originally posted by sheltiemom

______________________

Inbreeding links

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2005-12-29/news/forbidden-fruit/full
Doctors and family members interviewed by New Times say up to 20 children from families in the polygamist community are currently afflicted with the condition that requires full-time attention from caregivers. Victims suffer a range of symptoms, including severe epileptic seizures, inability to walk or even sit upright, severe speech impediments, failure to grow at a normal rate, and tragic physical deformities.

"They are in terrible shape," says Dr. Kirk A. Aleck, director of the Pediatric Neurogenetics Center at St. Joseph's Hospital. . [/*]

(snipped for space).

Man, that article is highly disturbing!

Devotion

04-27-2008, 09:09 AM

Below are several QUOTES I found especially disturbing in many ways........it's upsetting to read HOW the taxpayers have been" used ".......imo

By John Dougherty
Published on December 29, 2005
Fifteen years ago, a strange-looking child suffering from severe physical maladies and acute retardation was brought into the office of Dr. Theodore Tarby.

Colorado City resident Isaac Wyler says FLDS Prophet Warren Jeffs is trying to create the "perfect race."
Subject(s):
Tarby's young patient was afflicted with an extremely rare disease called fumarase deficiency.

"I had never seen a patient with it," Tarby says.

The parents said their daughter had cerebral palsy. Tarby asked them to bring the girl to him for an examination.
"As soon as I saw her, I knew she had the same thing as her brother," Tarby says.

The fact that FUMARASE DEFICIENCY had shown up in one child was startling enough -- there had only been a handful of cases reported WORLDWIDE.

By the late 1990s, Tarby and his team had discovered fumarase deficiency was occurring in the greatest concentration in the WORLD
among the fundamentalist Mormon polygamists of northern Arizona and southern Utah.

Of even greater concern was the fact that the recessive gene that triggers the disease was rapidly spreading to thousands of individuals living in the community because of decades of inbreeding.

About half of the 8,000 people living in the towns are blood relatives of two of the founding families .

"We have and will have a continual output of children with this condition," Tarby says.

The state of ARIZONA is CONTRIBUTING to the SECRECY.
The state Department of Health Services and the Department of Economic Security have been QUIETLY providing services to assist the children and families of fumarase victims for more than 15 years.

Victims suffer a range of symptoms, including severe epileptic seizures, inability to walk or even sit upright, severe speech impediments, failure to grow at a normal rate, and tragic physical deformities.

There is no cure for the disease, which impedes the body's ability to process food at the cellular level.

"If you look in the literature, you won't find another dozen cases in the WORLD that have been reported," says Tarby.

Experts say the number of children afflicted in the FLDS community is expected to steadily increase as a result of decades of inbreeding between two of the polygamous sect's founding families -- the Barlows and the Jessops.

"It's like any inbred disorder," Tarby says. "If the community gets larger, the number of people with fumarase deficiency gets larger."

"This problem is going to get worse and worse and worse," predicts 40-year-old Isaac Wyler.

The STATE not only IGNORED the crimes for decades,

it helped facilitate them by allowing the FLDS polygamists to set up a town government,
a public school district
and a police department,

that have received TENS of MILLIONS of DOLLARS in TAXPAYER FUNDS

despite the fact that polygamy VIOLATES Arizona's Constitution.

The fundamentalist community has also benefited immensely from state health-care services for the poor and indigent

by receiving more than $12 MILLION A YEAR
in state assistance in Arizona to PAY for health-insurance premiums.

It turns out that taxpayers also have been FOOTING THE BILL
for the fumarase deficiency children born to polygamists who insist that plural marriage involving close relatives is their divine right...........jmo...moo

tisamystery

04-27-2008, 12:05 PM

Just want to modify my earlier post about Marilyn's daughter. I saw the video again and the child (about 2 years old) does appear to be wearing traditional garb. It still find it perculiar, however, that her hair was done up with bows - unlike the unadorned hair of the others. But we haven't seen photos of the toddlers so perhaps this is okay with them.

Olga

04-27-2008, 01:45 PM

I heard the women are all on welfare and receive every handout the government offers, any truth to that rumor?

KatyDid

04-27-2008, 02:43 PM

Some information about it. Yes, a large number of FLDS members are supported by our tax dollars.

http://rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy5.html

http://www.childbrides.org/abuses_Howell_time_to_end_abuse.html

"Second, polygamists abuse the welfare system. Polygamist families are taught that welfare was instituted by God to assist them. Thus, wives who are not technically married as the first wife file for welfare by stating that their husband has left them and refuses to pay child support. In effect, polygamy is cheating the honest citizens of this state out of millions of tax dollars."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/04/10/earlyshow/main4005519.shtml

"As Allen explained to Kauffman, "What happens is a man marries one wife, she's his legal wife, then he marries ten other wives in the church, and all the other wives are, by law, single women, so they have all these children with him, and they all get welfare."

The more kids, the bigger the welfare check, Kauffman points out."

Roux

04-27-2008, 03:17 PM

Originally posted by tisamystery
I remember CPS saying the kids didn't know what crayons were. Yet when Marilyn was giving her tour, she held up a paper on which there was a FLDS woman (coloring book style drawing) colored in. She said one of the children had done it. What's going on? [/*]

I noticed that also and wondered about it. Maybe the child had done the drawing while in custody and someone had brought it back to the ranch? But how do they teach the little ones without crayons, if that is true, as we all know how much a part coloring plays in the first year or two of school. Families who have small children have their fridges covered in artwork.

JD1974

04-27-2008, 03:30 PM

I am amazed at how many women on this board think taking a mothers child away with no proof of abuse is ok. I am a mother and I would die for my kids. Put the shoe on the other foot and ask yourself if you would think it was ok if the govt. took YOUR child away with no proof whatsoever of abuse? Just think about that for a little bit, it is scary as hell.

They should of done a thorough investigation and taken the ones who truly may be getting abused, no way should the abuse of one child be linked to another child who is in no way abused. To me this is really scary, you have a woman with mental issues who calls in a report claiming to be a 16 year old locked in a basement (as far as I know none of the compound houses have basements) and that her 48 year old husband is abusing HER, let's say she was real. Would that still constitute removing 400+ children from their mothers, some of whom were breastfeeding still??

I don't condone what these people do with their religion and if there are children being abused heck yeah they should be removed, but how far should the govt. be able to take this?

Like I said at the beginning, really think about how you would feel if your child was not being abused but the govt. came into your house and removed them because someone called and said they were, no investigation, just walked in and took them. I bet you wouldn't be so condesending anymore.

Details

04-27-2008, 03:37 PM

There's plenty of proof of abuse. Tons. If I ever take my child to live in a cult where children are given to old men for sex (can't call it a marriage - they reassign them to other men - it's not a marriage), where children are thrown away when inconvenient, where child abuse is common - and where I have no control over whether or not these things happen to my own child, I sure as hades hope that someone takes my child away until I wake up.

Pregnant girls are proof. Underage mothers are proof. Lost boys are proof. Convictions for child labor are proof. Information from those who have escaped are proof. The cults own records are proof. The 16 year old girl with 4 children and another on the way are proof. The children who all say there is no age too young to marry and get pregnant are proof.

Living there is abuse. Teaching your children all of this is right is abuse.

Details

04-27-2008, 03:38 PM

There was an investigation - what are you reading? There was an allegation about one girl, they went to look for her - just her. While there, they saw evidence of child abuse. They investigated, got a search warrent, found more evidence, and based on that - not based at all on the phone call - they removed the children. None of this was based on the phone call that would only have had them looking for Sarah, it was based on what LE and CPS heard and saw.

Details

04-27-2008, 03:41 PM

According to many former cult members, maybe even some recorded statements from current cult leaders, the simple thing is that America is the enemy - we're evil, wrong, so anything they can do to weaken us is good. Such as take as much money as possible. Bleeding the beast.

JD1974

04-27-2008, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by Details
There's plenty of proof of abuse. Tons. If I ever take my child to live in a cult where children are given to old men for sex (can't call it a marriage - they reassign them to other men - it's not a marriage), where children are thrown away when inconvenient, where child abuse is common - and where I have no control over whether or not these things happen to my own child, I sure as hades hope that someone takes my child away until I wake up.

Pregnant girls are proof. Underage mothers are proof. Lost boys are proof. Convictions for child labor are proof. Information from those who have escaped are proof. The cults own records are proof. The 16 year old girl with 4 children and another on the way are proof. The children who all say there is no age too young to marry and get pregnant are proof.

Living there is abuse. Teaching your children all of this is right is abuse. [/*]

Well then I guess my mom needs to be arrested, I was a pregnant teen. Is there some kind of proof that I can see that these underage girls were pregnant by old men or could she have married a young man? If you want to make being an underage mother a crime then it needs to be a crime across the country, NOT just in a religous compound. Also can you show me some proof of some sort that the 400+ kids that were taken were abused, or is that just assumed because of the teenage pregnancies? You cannot take away children who aren't being abused because some other child is being abused.

Like I said, your neighbor abuses her kids, yet they yank yours out of your house too, just in case you are doing the same thing. You need PROOF that any of those children taken away were abused, living there isn't abuse, it may not be your choice, but do you really know what goes on in there or are you just basing your abuse on the govt saying it is so, without any other proof.

Details

04-27-2008, 04:18 PM

I love some of the expert's statements - no, they wouldn't use a safehouse to hide, let's say, a child molseter - but a girl as young as 13 is marriage material! Sounds to me like he's bought into the cult's definition of a child molester.

Roux

04-27-2008, 04:26 PM

There is no comparison to your situation JD unelss an adult in your family FORCED you to have sex against your will. These people don't live like we do; there are numerous women living with groups of children under one roof. Some of the children don't know their real mother because all the women tend and "mother" the children.
As we discused on posts late last week, IMO some people are projecting their own maternal feelings on this situation and unless you are FLDS, I don't believe that you can do that. Certainly these mothers love the children but they have subjected them to abuse and not put the welfare of the children above the teachings of Warren Jeffs.
And finally, I feel certain that CPS has not revealed everything they've found. There are privacy issues as to medical records, etc. In time maybe ALL will be revealed.

Details

04-27-2008, 04:27 PM

There is proof you can see - just go to the media sites, find one reporting on this case, and you should not have too much trouble finding the testimony about LE finding the cult's own records of marriages and pregnancies of these girls.

It's not about only an underage mother - it's the parents and the cult condoning and forcing this. Did your mother force you into bed with an older man to get you pregnant, tell you it was right? If not, then there's the difference.

The proof is far from only the government saying so - I'm presenting much of that because some prefer to believe that. But there are tons of links on here - you can read from Warren Jeff's nephew, those who have escaped from the cult, the rape trial of Elissa - the amount of information out there is immense, and the abuse is pretty unbelievable.

Devotion

04-27-2008, 04:41 PM

tisamystery

04-27-2008, 04:52 PM

Originally posted by Roux

I noticed that also and wondered about it. Maybe the child had done the drawing while in custody and someone had brought it back to the ranch? But how do they teach the little ones without crayons, if that is true, as we all know how much a part coloring plays in the first year or two of school. Families who have small children have their fridges covered in artwork. [/*]

If they were in custody, somebody went to a lot of trouble (and quickly) to provide coloring pictures of FLDS women. Maybe they aren't introduced to crayons until they go to school so that would explain why the toddlers wouldn't know what they were?

emdragon

04-27-2008, 04:58 PM

I'm Shocked that any mother would support these women, who allowed 11,12,13 yr old girls to be married off to 30,40,50 yr old men.

This is a case of Child RAPE pure and simple and anyone who makes excuses for these women.. I will not call them mothers since they allowed this abuse to continue and encouraged it.

JD1974- just think about this- had someone stepped in and removed the Children of Jonestown they wouldn't have ended up murdered by their own parents and community members.

I'd much rather see 400+ kids removed and abuse ruled out than to take the risk 1 more child could be raped.

Roux

04-27-2008, 05:02 PM

Originally posted by tisamystery

If they were in custody, somebody went to a lot of trouble (and quickly) to provide coloring pictures of FLDS women. Maybe they aren't introduced to crayons until they go to school so that would explain why the toddlers wouldn't know what they were? [/*]

Yep, us mothers & grannies know how dangerous a crayon can be in the hands of a toddler! O/T but IIRC last week's SuperNanny family had those issues.

Olga

04-27-2008, 05:02 PM

Thanks for the info, I kept googling but got nothing.

KatyDid

04-27-2008, 05:05 PM

Originally posted by emdragon
I'm Shocked that any mother would support these women, who allowed 11,12,13 yr old girls to be married off to 30,40,50 yr old men.

This is a case of Child RAPE pure and simple and anyone who makes excuses for these women.. I will not call them mothers since they allowed this abuse to continue and encouraged it.

JD1974- just think about this- had someone stepped in and removed the Children of Jonestown they wouldn't have ended up murdered by their own parents and community members.

I'd much rather see 400+ kids removed and abuse ruled out than to take the risk 1 more child could be raped. [/*]

ITA!!! :beer:

lotty

04-27-2008, 05:13 PM

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E0CE0DB1F3CF933A05752C0A9669C8* 63

National News Briefs; Utah Rejects Prosecutor For Polygamous Clans
Published: January 30, 2000
Utah lawmakers have voted down a bill that would have established a special prosecutor to investigate abuse and fraud in polygamous communities.

The House bill, killed on Thursday by a vote of 43 to 28, would have allocated $200,000 to hire a prosecutor to investigate welfare fraud, tax fraud, domestic abuse and sexual abuse in polygamous societies.

KatyDid

04-27-2008, 06:03 PM

Originally posted by lotty
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E0CE0DB1F3CF933A05752C0A9669C8* 63

National News Briefs; Utah Rejects Prosecutor For Polygamous Clans
Published: January 30, 2000
Utah lawmakers have voted down a bill that would have established a special prosecutor to investigate abuse and fraud in polygamous communities.

The House bill, killed on Thursday by a vote of 43 to 28, would have allocated $200,000 to hire a prosecutor to investigate welfare fraud, tax fraud, domestic abuse and sexual abuse in polygamous societies. [/*]

Way to go UTAH!!
:rolleyes:

I wonder what religion the nay voters are. Amazing to me they wouldn't want to know about the state's tax dollars.

More amazing they would reject the opportunity to help abused women and children.

$200K seems a pittance to pay to save millions and find out about the women and children.

Carol25

04-27-2008, 06:16 PM

Originally posted by JD1974
I am amazed at how many women on this board think taking a mothers child away with no proof of abuse is ok. I am a mother and I would die for my kids. Put the shoe on the other foot and ask yourself if you would think it was ok if the govt. took YOUR child away with no proof whatsoever of abuse? Just think about that for a little bit, it is scary as hell.

They should of done a thorough investigation and taken the ones who truly may be getting abused, no way should the abuse of one child be linked to another child who is in no way abused. To me this is really scary, you have a woman with mental issues who calls in a report claiming to be a 16 year old locked in a basement (as far as I know none of the compound houses have basements) and that her 48 year old husband is abusing HER, let's say she was real. Would that still constitute removing 400+ children from their mothers, some of whom were breastfeeding still??

I don't condone what these people do with their religion and if there are children being abused heck yeah they should be removed, but how far should the govt. be able to take this?

Like I said at the beginning, really think about how you would feel if your child was not being abused but the govt. came into your house and removed them because someone called and said they were, no investigation, just walked in and took them. I bet you wouldn't be so condesending anymore. [/*]

JD1974, I can see what a loving and devoted mother you are to your children! The fact that you were a teenage mother reflects that although YOU were young, you were ready to be a mother.

Just take a look at the mothers who have been interviewed. Do you identify with them? Don't they appear different from you? Have you read that many of these children are not their own? Do you know that the children do not know of any one person as their "mommy?" Would you have any of your girls be taken at puberty and given to an older man against your best interest of her? Knowing the loving mother you are, I don't think you would ever let that happen.

Would you allow your child to to serve a subserviant life as a wife and just being a caretaker of the children, possibly not her own? Would you allow this to happen realizing her children may be a victim of fumarase disease? Her children never excelling above 6th grade? These would be your grandchildren.

You are too loving to allow this to happen to your children. Read more about this cult and then decide if it was best that they were taken away from the environment that demanded all of these things. These children will hopefully be allowed to grow up knowing there are choices, just as you had.

I wish you well.

Carol25

04-27-2008, 06:23 PM

Originally posted by KatyDid

Way to go UTAH!!
:rolleyes:

I wonder what religion the nay voters are. Amazing to me they wouldn't want to know about the state's tax dollars.

More amazing they would reject the opportunity to help abused women and children.

$200K seems a pittance to pay to save millions and find out about the women and children. [/*]
Exactly! I would like some bold legislator put that bill up again. And then have the vote ( naming names) reported in the media. The media would have the duty to interview any of those legislators to answer hard questions to defend their vote.

The media could then ask to see who donated to their last campaign and what affiliations they had to the FLDS or the Mormons.

xray ra

04-27-2008, 06:35 PM

Rainkiss

04-27-2008, 06:46 PM

Originally posted by JD1974
I am amazed at how many women on this board think taking a mothers child away with no proof of abuse is ok. I am a mother and I would die for my kids. Put the shoe on the other foot and ask yourself if you would think it was ok if the govt. took YOUR child away with no proof whatsoever of abuse? Just think about that for a little bit, it is scary as hell.

They should of done a thorough investigation and taken the ones who truly may be getting abused, no way should the abuse of one child be linked to another child who is in no way abused. To me this is really scary, you have a woman with mental issues who calls in a report claiming to be a 16 year old locked in a basement (as far as I know none of the compound houses have basements) and that her 48 year old husband is abusing HER, let's say she was real. Would that still constitute removing 400+ children from their mothers, some of whom were breastfeeding still??

I don't condone what these people do with their religion and if there are children being abused heck yeah they should be removed, but how far should the govt. be able to take this?

Like I said at the beginning, really think about how you would feel if your child was not being abused but the govt. came into your house and removed them because someone called and said they were, no investigation, just walked in and took them. I bet you wouldn't be so condesending anymore. [/*]

What's scary as hell is that the twelve year old little girl you want returned to the ranch has already been being looked over by the elders of the community, and there is likely already speculation over who she's going to be assigned to in a year or so.

What's scary as hell is that there are teenage boys, who've barely been educated at all, being dumped on the side of the road with nothing but the clothes on their backs, and told, "Sorry, you talked to a girl/watched TV/listened to music, you're going to hell, and you're dead to your family."

What's scary as hell is that this has been going on for YEARS, and not a single one of those "mothers" has picked up a phone and called for help for their children.

Carol25

04-27-2008, 07:42 PM

Originally posted by tisamystery
I remember CPS saying the kids didn't know what crayons were. Yet when Marilyn was giving her tour, she held up a paper on which there was a FLDS woman (coloring book style drawing) colored in. She said one of the children had done it. What's going on? [/*]
Could it be someone quickly ran out, got crayons and a coloring book, colored a picture and said look at what the children did?
Maybe the "mothers" thought it was so intriguing, they ran out and got more! :D

evalles

04-27-2008, 07:47 PM

evalles

04-27-2008, 07:56 PM

Originally posted by JD1974

Well then I guess my mom needs to be arrested, I was a pregnant teen. Is there some kind of proof that I can see that these underage girls were pregnant by old men or could she have married a young man? If you want to make being an underage mother a crime then it needs to be a crime across the country, NOT just in a religous compound. Also can you show me some proof of some sort that the 400+ kids that were taken were abused, or is that just assumed because of the teenage pregnancies? You cannot take away children who aren't being abused because some other child is being abused.

Like I said, your neighbor abuses her kids, yet they yank yours out of your house too, just in case you are doing the same thing. You need PROOF that any of those children taken away were abused, living there isn't abuse, it may not be your choice, but do you really know what goes on in there or are you just basing your abuse on the govt saying it is so, without any other proof. [/*]

That makes absolute sense. There are posters here that will attack you for having common sense, but just re-read your post if you should ever have doubts. You're absolutely right.

evalles

04-27-2008, 08:03 PM

Originally posted by Roux
There is no comparison to your situation JD unelss an adult in your family FORCED you to have sex against your will. These people don't live like we do; there are numerous women living with groups of children under one roof. Some of the children don't know their real mother because all the women tend and "mother" the children.
As we discused on posts late last week, IMO some people are projecting their own maternal feelings on this situation and unless you are FLDS, I don't believe that you can do that. Certainly these mothers love the children but they have subjected them to abuse and not put the welfare of the children above the teachings of Warren Jeffs.
And finally, I feel certain that CPS has not revealed everything they've found. There are privacy issues as to medical records, etc. In time maybe ALL will be revealed. [/*]

They could hardly tell by looking at a pregnant teenage girl that she was forced into it. So, it comes down to pregnant teenage girls and nothing more. God help us if this is all that's needed to take over 400 children.

evalles

04-27-2008, 08:11 PM

Originally posted by grammybear
Along with the post here, it is my understanding that these so called mothers did not talk to LE, would not give them their first or last name or who their husbands were. This group teaches these children from a very young age to lie to authorities, never give your real name or anything else. I am sure there is plenty of evidence of abuse, otherwise the judge would not allow the children to be taken. I have not heard much about the men and women coming in and having their DNA taken that was court ordered. That to me speaks volumes about the people who are supposed to care about their children and so badly want to get them back. I have also read where the children are raised by many women, not just their mommy and I think we are going to find out that some of these children do not belong to the adults that live in the compound.

The lawyers for the mothers and fathers have been trying every trick in the book to get this thrown out of court. But I feel the court did the right thing for these children. The mothers said they will compromise with the state but imo you can not compromise when it comes to children.

jmoo [/*]

Citizens don't have to talk to LE. If your arrested you don't have to tt LE. Why would they want to talk to someone that sends in a Swat team to take all their children ? What difference do you think it would have made anyway ?

evalles

04-27-2008, 08:40 PM

Originally posted by Rainkiss

What's scary as hell is that the twelve year old little girl you want returned to the ranch has already been being looked over by the elders of the community, and there is likely already speculation over who she's going to be assigned to in a year or so.

What's scary as hell is that there are teenage boys, who've barely been educated at all, being dumped on the side of the road with nothing but the clothes on their backs, and told, "Sorry, you talked to a girl/watched TV/listened to music, you're going to hell, and you're dead to your family."

What's scary as hell is that this has been going on for YEARS, and not a single one of those "mothers" has picked up a phone and called for help for their children. [/*]

What's scary as hell is that the government can take over 400 children because they see some pregnant teens.
What's scary as hell is that an expert witness for the state admits he got his knowlege from the media.
What's scary as hell is that a physician that examined the children said they were healthy and well cared for and a judge still decided to take all of them away.
What's scary as hell is that despite the examining physician's testimony, some people continue to post that all of these children were raped and abused.
What's scary as hell is that the government has been perpetrating these crimes against families for years and many didn't know it until now.
What's scary as hell is that a false report might be all that's standing in the way of the government doing the same thing to you.

evalles

04-27-2008, 09:35 PM

Originally posted by Texanne
Innocent men will come forward (if they love their children like they claim) and submit to DNA to get their children back. I would rather err on the side of caution. The idea of little girls being used as brood mares for a cult of dirty old men is repulsive. The DNA tests should prove who is guilty or innocent, shouldn't it? Would you rather take a chance that the children will be sent back to a cult that practices such things? We know they have multiple marriages...which is against the law. We know very young girls are pregnant. We know the children cannot even tell who their mothers and fathers are. Just how bad does it have to be before you quit with your bull about inoocent people losing their children? Is it all about the rights of parents?....shouldn't it be about the rights of the children? Let's just do the tests and settle it once and for all. What if no one steps forward to prove they are the father of the children.....who do we give them to? The mothers aren't talking. If they have nothing to hide....then what ARE they hiding? [/*]

Just because the mothers haven't said what everyone wants to hear doesn't mean they haven't talked.
The mothers and all citizens rights have to be protected.If not,by the time these children are grown, they might not have any rights at all.

Details

04-27-2008, 09:58 PM

We've had posters here describe their encounters with CPS. Even with an idiot doctor, being open and honest works just fine. Treating them as adversaries and lying gives good reason why they should look further.

Pregnant teens and teenage mothers are evidence of underage sex. A bunch of them are evidence of a pattern that needs to be more closely looked at, and provides the evidence to get a search warrent. The search warrent gets the records and more information that gives good reason to pull every child out of there.

I can just imagine if they'd left some of the children behind. Go back, and they'd be nowhere to be found, spirited off to another compound, ready to be married off or thrown away when they get 'old enough' - AKA 13 years old.

Details

04-27-2008, 10:02 PM

No child was taken because of a hoax phone call. They were taken because of what the police saw while searching for Sarah, because of what the cult members did while they were searching (moving children around, lying, etc.)

The phone call got the police there. But once there, the evidence of abuse is why the children were taken. All of our kids are safe from a hoax phone call. But if there are conditions in your house that will be evidence of likely child abuse - then that's the reason to be afraid.

KatyDid

04-27-2008, 10:08 PM

Originally posted by Carol25

Exactly! I would like some bold legislator put that bill up again. And then have the vote ( naming names) reported in the media. The media would have the duty to interview any of those legislators to answer hard questions to defend their vote.

The media could then ask to see who donated to their last campaign and what affiliations they had to the FLDS or the Mormons. [/*]

YES!!!! :beer:

walton

04-27-2008, 10:39 PM

Originally posted by Devotion
Below are several QUOTES I found especially disturbing in many ways........it's upsetting to read HOW the taxpayers have been" used ".......imo

***snipped***

About half of the 8,000 people living in the towns are blood relatives of two of the founding families .

"We have and will have a continual output of children with this condition," Tarby says.

The state of ARIZONA is CONTRIBUTING to the SECRECY.
The state Department of Health Services and the Department of Economic Security have been QUIETLY providing services to assist the children and families of fumarase victims for more than 15 years.

Victims suffer a range of symptoms, including severe epileptic seizures, inability to walk or even sit upright, severe speech impediments, failure to grow at a normal rate, and tragic physical deformities.

There is no cure for the disease, which impedes the body's ability to process food at the cellular level.

"If you look in the literature, you won't find another dozen cases in the WORLD that have been reported," says Tarby.

Experts say the number of children afflicted in the FLDS community is expected to steadily increase as a result of decades of inbreeding between two of the polygamous sect's founding families -- the Barlows and the Jessops.

"It's like any inbred disorder," Tarby says. "If the community gets larger, the number of people with fumarase deficiency gets larger."

"This problem is going to get worse and worse and worse," predicts 40-year-old Isaac Wyler.

The STATE not only IGNORED the crimes for decades,

it helped facilitate them by allowing the FLDS polygamists to set up a town government,
a public school district
and a police department,

that have received TENS of MILLIONS of DOLLARS in TAXPAYER FUNDS

despite the fact that polygamy VIOLATES Arizona's Constitution.

The fundamentalist community has also benefited immensely from state health-care services for the poor and indigent

by receiving more than $12 MILLION A YEAR
in state assistance in Arizona to PAY for health-insurance premiums.

It turns out that taxpayers also have been FOOTING THE BILL
for the fumarase deficiency children born to polygamists who insist that plural marriage involving close relatives is their divine right...........jmo...moo [/*]

Have you seen anything in your travels about any of the FLDS carrying life insurance? I haven't seen anything, I was just wondering.

walton

04-27-2008, 10:44 PM

Originally posted by Details
I love some of the expert's statements - no, they wouldn't use a safehouse to hide, let's say, a child molseter - but a girl as young as 13 is marriage material! Sounds to me like he's bought into the cult's definition of a child molester. [/*]

I question most of what the "expert" said and how he said it. jmo

The "expert" could have brought up the 8 hour meeting with John Taylor and enlightened those in court how the FLDS came to be. jmo

lotty

04-27-2008, 10:48 PM

walton

04-27-2008, 10:57 PM

lotty

04-27-2008, 11:10 PM

Originally posted by walton

:) [/*]

A little more for people to chew on it's not just welfare, still tax payer dollars. As always JMO/IMO.

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2005-12-08/news/crash-course/

The tiny district operates one K-12 school with about 350 students. Despite its small size, the district has an unusually high number of employees and has made some extraordinary purchases, including a $220,000 Cessna P-210 airplane, acquired in 2002.

walton

04-27-2008, 11:12 PM

walton

04-27-2008, 11:22 PM

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0606/S00059.htm

Others providing a safety net to the polygamy criminal enterprise include: unsavory banking interests, lawyers like Rodney Parker who previously served in Bush I's US Deputy Attorney General's office and now as registered agent for the FLDS corporations, and Republican politicians like US Senators Orrin Hatch and Bob Bennett - whose families endured polygamy -- John McCain, John Kyl and others. [Scoop: Suzan Mazur: Most Wanted In Polygamy Coverup]

No -- federal, state and local money was not thrown to the Colorado City Municipal Airport to bring tourism to the region or because the FLDS polygamists were looking like the "chosen ones" for an extraterrestrial visitation. More feasible is that the remoteness of the airport provides perfect cover for sensitive business traffic along the lines of drugs-for-weapons swaps like we saw in Mena, Arkansas. As Arizona's "1992 Airport of the Year," the Colorado City airstrip is also just minutes away from Las Vegas, presenting serious money laundering options.

Lacking even bus service to the nearest town 20 minutes away by road, Colorado City is now only an hour or so by air from the historic Mexican polygamy colonies of Colonia Juarez and Colonia Dublan in the drug infested state of Chihuahua and less than two hours from British Columbia's Bountiful cult -- raising red flags about human trafficking as well as drug trafficking.

Whatever the reasons, $3 million in federal, state and local grants were tossed to Colorado City polygamists to build an airport - those reasons are now an international political issue. DOJ/FBI failure to move in on US polygamy must be addressed in an open session by the Senate Judiciary Committee, and soon, or it surely will be taken up in a citizen-organized "truth and reconciliation commission" televised worldwide -- blowing the lid off a government criminal conspiracy.

evalles

04-27-2008, 11:29 PM

Originally posted by Texanne
Innocent men will come forward (if they love their children like they claim) and submit to DNA to get their children back. I would rather err on the side of caution. The idea of little girls being used as brood mares for a cult of dirty old men is repulsive. The DNA tests should prove who is guilty or innocent, shouldn't it? Would you rather take a chance that the children will be sent back to a cult that practices such things? We know they have multiple marriages...which is against the law. We know very young girls are pregnant. We know the children cannot even tell who their mothers and fathers are. Just how bad does it have to be before you quit with your bull about inoocent people losing their children? Is it all about the rights of parents?....shouldn't it be about the rights of the children? Let's just do the tests and settle it once and for all. What if no one steps forward to prove they are the father of the children.....who do we give them to? The mothers aren't talking. If they have nothing to hide....then what ARE they hiding? [/*]

The state's given them to total strangers that have no genetic bond.

walton

04-27-2008, 11:32 PM

Originally posted by evalles

The state's given them to total strangers that have no genetic bond. [/*]

Thank everyones God for small favors. jmo

lotty

04-27-2008, 11:32 PM

Originally posted by walton
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0606/S00059.htm

Others providing a safety net to the polygamy criminal enterprise include: unsavory banking interests, lawyers like Rodney Parker who previously served in Bush I's US Deputy Attorney General's office and now as registered agent for the FLDS corporations, and Republican politicians like US Senators Orrin Hatch and Bob Bennett - whose families endured polygamy -- John McCain, John Kyl and others. [Scoop: Suzan Mazur: Most Wanted In Polygamy Coverup]

No -- federal, state and local money was not thrown to the Colorado City Municipal Airport to bring tourism to the region or because the FLDS polygamists were looking like the "chosen ones" for an extraterrestrial visitation. More feasible is that the remoteness of the airport provides perfect cover for sensitive business traffic along the lines of drugs-for-weapons swaps like we saw in Mena, Arkansas. As Arizona's "1992 Airport of the Year," the Colorado City airstrip is also just minutes away from Las Vegas, presenting serious money laundering options.

Lacking even bus service to the nearest town 20 minutes away by road, Colorado City is now only an hour or so by air from the historic Mexican polygamy colonies of Colonia Juarez and Colonia Dublan in the drug infested state of Chihuahua and less than two hours from British Columbia's Bountiful cult -- raising red flags about human trafficking as well as drug trafficking.

Whatever the reasons, $3 million in federal, state and local grants were tossed to Colorado City polygamists to build an airport - those reasons are now an international political issue. DOJ/FBI failure to move in on US polygamy must be addressed in an open session by the Senate Judiciary Committee, and soon, or it surely will be taken up in a citizen-organized "truth and reconciliation commission" televised worldwide -- blowing the lid off a government criminal conspiracy. [/*]

IMO/JMO I just could not snip this one!:beer: For anyone who doesn't know, Ciudad Juarez, has some extremely scary neighborhood and a record of extremely violent crimes. As always JMO/IMO

dicee

04-27-2008, 11:36 PM

Originally posted by tisamystery

If they were in custody, somebody went to a lot of trouble (and quickly) to provide coloring pictures of FLDS women. Maybe they aren't introduced to crayons until they go to school so that would explain why the toddlers wouldn't know what they were? [/*]

Then CPS lied when they said these kids didn't know what crayons are.CPS said "kids" instead of "toddlers".

Details

04-27-2008, 11:41 PM

Originally posted by evalles
The state's given them to total strangers that have no genetic bond. [/*]We don't know that any of those trying to claim any particular child has a genetic bond either.

But genetic bonds are overrated, as many abused children will tell you. A true mother, a true father, shows themselves in their behavior, love and care for the child's best interests.

lotty

04-27-2008, 11:47 PM

Originally posted by evalles

I'm watching 48 hours now and you're right, there's no evidence that every one of these children were abused. This is equal to a class action child custody hearing. I pray that people take notice of the abuses being perpetrated against our citizens. Where was the imminent risk to all 416 ? [/*]

IMO/JMO "no evidence" are all forms of abuse evident visually? Has anyone outside of those closest, to the 452(?) children, seen them all? You won't they are minors their privacy is to be respected by media, and state employees. I seriously doubt that you could find very many that would tell everything they have seen, with these children, while working with them...by the way I have yet to see FLDS issue current photos of each one of the children head to toe. And for another I can't believe FLDS is showing photos of the children at all, maybe they are just pawns, who knows. As always JMO/IMO

evalles

04-27-2008, 11:49 PM

Originally posted by Texanne
Innocent men will come forward (if they love their children like they claim) and submit to DNA to get their children back. I would rather err on the side of caution. The idea of little girls being used as brood mares for a cult of dirty old men is repulsive. The DNA tests should prove who is guilty or innocent, shouldn't it? Would you rather take a chance that the children will be sent back to a cult that practices such things? We know they have multiple marriages...which is against the law. We know very young girls are pregnant. We know the children cannot even tell who their mothers and fathers are. Just how bad does it have to be before you quit with your bull about inoocent people losing their children? Is it all about the rights of parents?....shouldn't it be about the rights of the children? Let's just do the tests and settle it once and for all. What if no one steps forward to prove they are the father of the children.....who do we give them to? The mothers aren't talking. If they have nothing to hide....then what ARE they hiding? [/*]

kinda like the time that CPS erred on the side of caution and took little Dominic James from his parents because they smoked pot and put him in a foster home where he was beaten to death.

evalles

04-27-2008, 11:54 PM

Originally posted by lotty

IMO/JMO "no evidence" are all forms of abuse evident visually? Has anyone outside of those closest, to the 452(?) children, seen them all? You won't they are minors their privacy is to be respected by media, and state employees. I seriously doubt that you could find very many that would tell everything they have seen, with these children, while working with them...by the way I have yet to see FLDS issue current photos of each one of the children head to toe. And for another I can't believe FLDS is showing photos of the children at all, maybe they are just pawns, who knows. As always JMO/IMO [/*]
There would be physical evidence if a child was raped and the physician didn't report any abuse findings.

Freebird

04-27-2008, 11:57 PM

Given the abuse in the boot camps(which sounds far worse then anything we've heard from that ranch)should we now raid the boot camps?

lotty

04-27-2008, 11:59 PM

Originally posted by evalles

There would be physical evidence if a child was raped and the physician didn't report any abuse findings. [/*]
And I would see this on television or in pictures? Court documents of rape of minors...I would see this now, while they are still trying organize everything. I just don't see this many children as a simple task. Sorry, maybe I am confused. As always JMO/IMO

walton

04-27-2008, 11:59 PM

http://www.xmission.com/~plporter/lds/kingston.htm There is a list of companies that the Kingstons are affiliated with.

I wonder if there is a list out there of all the companies Warren has something to do with.

Still nothing said from Warren. Nothing from his lawyers concerning all this. Hmmm

And how about that Gary Engles? Anyone see anything from him lately?

lotty

04-28-2008, 12:04 AM

Originally posted by walton
http://www.xmission.com/~plporter/lds/kingston.htm There is a list of companies that the Kingstons are affiliated with.

I wonder if there is a list out there of all the companies Warren has something to do with.

Still nothing said from Warren. Nothing from his lawyers concerning all this. Hmmm

And how about that Gary Engles? Anyone see anything from him lately? [/*]

FLDS & Warren Jeffs related companies are a little tricky to track down sometimes, change names I've noticed recently.

Not a peep. Think they will take a swab from Warren? Supposed to be some of his children there.

Gary Engles?

lotty

04-28-2008, 12:17 AM

:punch: Gary Engles, I remember, sorry long day.

lotty

04-28-2008, 12:28 AM

Just a little more...JMO/IMO

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2007840/posts

After decades of ignoring the polygamous sects of the American Southwest, state and federal officials are now cracking down on the child abuse and other illegal activity within them. Warren Jeffs, leader of the Fundamentalist Latter-Day Saints (FLDS), has been convicted of being an accomplice to rape and sentenced to two five years-to-life terms. Mohave County, Arizona, charged eight others for sexual conduct with minors in 2005.

In March, 2006, the federal government fined one contractor over $10,000 in child labor law violations for using FLDS boys.
...
Public funds support polygamous towns

With God ordering fraud, as argued by modern-day polygamists, there is plenty of it. Many plural wives claim they don’t know the whereabouts of their children’s father. As many as 50% of Hildale residents were on public assistance in 2001; 33% were on food stamps in 1998 compared to Utah’s statewide average of 4.7%. In 1997 every school-age child in Colorado City was living below the poverty level.

The twin towns have received millions of dol_lars from the federal government for housing and street improvements. Colorado City got $2.8 mil_lion for an airport, which prophet Jeffs has used for his chartered Lear jet.

In 2005, Colorado City’s tiny fire department received $350,000 in Homeland Security funds—the state’s third largest Homeland Security grant.

Arizona has taken over the Colorado City school system because of gross mismanagement of public funds.

In March, 2006, the federal government did fine a contractor over $10,000 in child labor law violations for using FLDS boys.

The response of state and federal government to the abuses of FLDS boys has, however, been severe_ly inadequate in CHILD’s view.

Lost boys expelled as surplus

Most of the world first heard of the “lost boys” in 2004 when dozens came to the Utah Capitol and spoke. All said they were forced out by the current prophet, Warren Jeffs. They said more than 400 males, ages 13 and older, have been banished from the FLDS community since Jeffs became supreme ruler in 2002.

They were banished for such infractions as watching movies, ogling girls, wearing short-sleeved shirts, or listening to popular music. Their real sin, most critics say, was being surplus males in a polygamous community.

Many of the boys are taken out of school before they reach eighth grade and forced to do hard labor in the sect’s construction and other businesses on the promise that the prophet will give them the three wives they need to get into heaven.

walton

04-28-2008, 12:32 AM

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/09/20/jeffs.engels/index.html

Ever since his office was burglarized, the investigator always carries his files with him, he told Court TV, which is part of CNN's parent company, Time Warner.

Engels' work might be lonely, but he's rarely alone. He says he is followed by young men in vehicles with tinted windows every time he shows up in the sect's stronghold.

Gary is one of the good guys. I was looking for a different article, one that talked about his previous job and when he first started this one.

walton

04-28-2008, 12:45 AM

http://www.childswayout.org/naomis_story.html

Starting at about age 6, my father began to do things to me that I did not understand. I asked my mother one day, "Do fathers marry their daughters?" I asked this question because my father was frequently sexually molesting me as well as his other daughters and sons, as I later came to discover. It's sad that this type of molestation was ongoing in many of the families, and although it was such a prevalent part of our lives we never spoke of it, accepting it as a part of our ever more confusing and secretive lives.

By the time I was 10 years old, I was assigned a "practice child" whom I was responsible for the feeding, diapering, bathing, making clothes for and nearly all other aspects of her care. In my recent visit to the YFZ (Yearning for Zion) Ranch [compound], I was united with that 'child' who is now age 25 and sadly, a deeply devoted member of the cult who would hardly speak with me.

giddyupalw

04-28-2008, 01:10 AM

emdragon

04-28-2008, 02:51 AM

Originally posted by evalles

Just because the mothers haven't said what everyone wants to hear doesn't mean they haven't talked.
The mothers and all citizens rights have to be protected.If not,by the time these children are grown, they might not have any rights at all. [/*]

Go read up on Jim Jones.. Had the state stepped in do you know how many children would have lived that ended up being murdered?

You think your the one with common sense but every time you say "because they saw a few pregnant teens" you show how illogical you really are. It is NOT ok for a 12 yr old to get pregnant by a man 4 times her age... it isn't just a pregnant kid it is a child RAPED.

And since we do not know which girl will be the next victim the right thing to so is to take all of the kids until it is sorted out.

Call me a hard a$$ if you want to but i also think the governement should have stepped in at WACCO and we wouldn't have had more dead kids because their parents chose to believe a crazy con-man with sex fetishes.

Rainkiss

04-28-2008, 06:06 AM

I'll repeat the question I've asked before, and haven't had answered.

Say the police find a four year old boy playing in the street, in danger of being run down by a car. They pick up the boy, and ask him what his name is, and where he lives. He refuses to answer. Says his name is Bobby Jones, Timmy Smith, Eric Jessop. He won't say which house is his, and can't (or won't) identify his parents. None of the adults on the street will identify him, and just ask that you turn him back loose on the street.

You have this little boy in the back of your car. Your choices are to a) put him in foster care until his family can be identified, and to see if neglect charges apply, or *) turn him back onto the street.

Decision?

LLaFren

04-28-2008, 07:02 AM

Morning All :seeya: I started the thread for today. See ya there...

spageddy

04-28-2008, 07:17 AM

The parents of these children do not appear to be breaking down the doors of the courthouse trying to prove their "genetic bond" to the children. The women are shown in interviews saying "we want our children back"It sounds to me more like a group plea more than an individual Mom fighting for her child. .I would think that the Moms must know which children they actually gave birth to... but then again...???
So the question is: Who can the state return the children to if they don't know who their parents are?
I don't think there is an easy answer, but the children (IMO) need to be kept safe until their parents can claim them and assure their safety and protection.
It's possible, as some former flds members have been saying, that some of these children may have no parents in Texas. That they were taken from another community.
If, as it has been said, the moms receive welfare- they are not as naiive as they appear regarding matters of the state. Proving their genetic bond to a specific child is step #1 in getting the children back.

evalles

04-28-2008, 08:54 AM

Originally posted by emdragon

Go read up on Jim Jones.. Had the state stepped in do you know how many children would have lived that ended up being murdered?

You think your the one with common sense but every time you say "because they saw a few pregnant teens" you show how illogical you really are. It is NOT ok for a 12 yr old to get pregnant by a man 4 times her age... it isn't just a pregnant kid it is a child RAPED.

And since we do not know which girl will be the next victim the right thing to so is to take all of the kids until it is sorted out.

Call me a hard a$$ if you want to but i also think the governement should have stepped in at WACCO and we wouldn't have had more dead kids because their parents chose to believe a crazy con-man with sex fetishes. [/*]

I didn't think anybody died until the government stepped in @ Waaco.
People that want more government control, ususally work for the government.

evalles

04-28-2008, 09:07 AM

Originally posted by Rainkiss
I'll repeat the question I've asked before, and haven't had answered.

Say the police find a four year old boy playing in the street, in danger of being run down by a car. They pick up the boy, and ask him what his name is, and where he lives. He refuses to answer. Says his name is Bobby Jones, Timmy Smith, Eric Jessop. He won't say which house is his, and can't (or won't) identify his parents. None of the adults on the street will identify him, and just ask that you turn him back loose on the street.

You have this little boy in the back of your car. Your choices are to a) put him in foster care until his family can be identified, and to see if neglect charges apply, or *) turn him back onto the street.

Decision? [/*]

These kids weren't found on the streets and we know they don't belong to the people they were given to either. I read a lot of posts that say the state has plenty of evidence we don't know about. I'm not going to base my decisions on evidence I haven't even heard yet.